"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d4f8b3876c8439594bc60527a4b3fba\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 22 JULY 2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002296583b44ec454b658fb693cb8c936437\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 22 JULY 2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000004\u0022\u003EKarakia.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220611a61817b0498b8058c66d3fd3dead\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c20d10ebb7c48c3b874631296be5262\u0022\u003EMalaysia Airlines\u2014Flight MH17 Crash in Ukraine\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b876100863e94cdfa2848f90ed7ad16c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b876100863e94cdfa2848f90ed7ad16c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice in relation to Flight MH17.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d95c78c8a57410d97cf13836dc26ac5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ed762ad07d54eecb76fdce0e7566ecd\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That this House express its condolences to the families of all those who lost their lives on Flight MH17, register its dismay at the constraints that have been imposed by armed separatist groups impeding the international investigation, call on those groups to cooperate immediately and unreservedly with international authorities, and urge Russia to use its influence with those groups to ensure the investigation and recovery operation proceeds appropriately and unimpeded. The New Zealand Government has been shocked by the events surrounding Flight MH17. All New Zealanders will wish to join me in expressing our sadness to the families of the New Zealanders who perished. We are also greatly saddened by the grievous casualties borne by our friends in other countries, particularly the Netherlands, Malaysia, and Australia. I have spoken with leaders of those countries to pass on the condolences of the New Zealand Government and people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe Government has been deeply concerned by the lack of appropriate and secure access to the site of the crash of Flight MH17 over the course of the last few days and by suggestions that armed groups have interfered with evidence. We are appalled that the bodies of those who died may not have been accorded proper and dignified treatment. We are disturbed by continuing hostilities in the region, which have hampered the investigation. There are reports that many of the bodies have now been collected, but others still remain at the site and it is essential that they too be quickly collected and the site remain secured for a proper international investigation. Two hundred and ninety-eight people, including people who called New Zealand home, have been caught up in a conflict they had no part in. President Putin must use his influence with the rebel leaders in eastern Ukraine to ensure that a ceasefire takes effect, so the international investigating team can undertake the important work unimpeded and without danger to themselves. Acting on instruction, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade has also registered this message with Russian diplomats to convey back to their authorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EOn 19 July New Zealand made a statement to the United Nations Security Council calling for an international, thorough, credible, and independent investigation. This morning New Zealand co-sponsored Australia\u2019s resolution on this matter at the Security Council. The international community has made clear the need for urgent action, and we expect the Security Council to show leadership and work together to support all international efforts in resolving this crisis. This terrible event reinforces the urgent need for an end to hostilities in eastern Ukraine and for the dispute to be resolved peacefully and in accordance with international law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00229d311239f6b74d15877fcceae0f86447\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d311239f6b74d15877fcceae0f86447\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I stand firm with the Prime Minister on this matter. The Labour Party expresses its deepest sympathies to the families of all aboard Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. The tragic deaths of the 298 people on board, apparently shot down over a war zone, are a heartbreaking loss. Our thoughts are especially with the families of the New Zealanders and New Zealand residents killed in the crash\u2014Robert Ayley, Mary Menke, and Gerry Menke\u2014and also with the families of the deceased of those of other nations. Losing a loved one can only be a horrific experience, and their loss will be so much worse in circumstances such as these.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere is nothing that any of us can do to lessen their grief, but we can push for answers as to how this terrible tragedy happened, who is responsible, and how we can prevent anything like this ever happening again in future. We join with the international community in calling for a swift, independent investigation of the crash site, to establish the causes of the crash. We expect nothing less than the full cooperation of all parties concerned, including Russia and the Ukrainian separatists. I would add that I support the sentiments and actions of the New Zealand Government in pursuing this end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe are encouraged by the news that the black boxes from MH17 have now been handed over to the Malaysian authorities and that safe, secure access to the site for international investigators has now been guaranteed. But the Russian Government must also step up and take responsibility for ensuring that international efforts to find the answers we need are not hampered and that a full inquiry is allowed to take place no matter what answers that inquiry may find.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4780d865c014c8d828de6fede2b49c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4780d865c014c8d828de6fede2b49c5\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. The Green Party wishes to support this motion and to convey our condolences to the families and friends of the victims of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. The tragedy has cost the lives of 298 innocent people who had nothing to do whatsoever with the conflict in Ukraine. But, then, all war takes innocent lives. War is itself an atrocity. Our thoughts are with those who have lost their loved ones in this crime against humanity. Many countries around the world have been directly affected by this tragedy\u2014the Netherlands and Malaysia, including, for them, 15 crew members. Australia has lost more than 30 of its own. We make particular acknowledgment of the New Zealand families who are grieving for their lost loved ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Green Party supports the United Nations Security Council call for an international investigation into the downing of the Malaysia Airlines passenger flight. It is vital that those armed groups in control of the region do allow access to the crash site and ensure that its integrity is maintained. It is most vital for the families that have lost loved ones that their relatives receive dignified, respectful, and professional treatment in the recovery operation. The tragedy of MH17 shows just how quickly an internal conflict within a country can spiral out of control, and how a conflict thousands of miles from New Zealand can affect us all. It is vital that the international community, as well as seeking justice for the victims of MH17 and their families, puts all of its efforts into promoting peace in the Ukraine. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddce94b69428481ab73ad8b09637449d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddce94b69428481ab73ad8b09637449d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This grave matter concerns our nation, and because we should speak in condemnation with one voice, New Zealand First endorses the comments of the Prime Minister and other party leaders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa80dd71ce7a45eb9fe5fdb5e375afa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa80dd71ce7a45eb9fe5fdb5e375afa4\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tau katoa e te Whare. He pai tonu t\u014D karakia i te r\u0101 nei hei t\u012Bmatanga k\u014Drero i a t\u0101tau e k\u014Drero nei i t\u0113nei take. He kupu k\u014Drero t\u0113r\u0101 ki te w\u0101hi ng\u0101ro kia \u016Bhia mai ng\u0101 manaakitanga ki runga i t\u0113nei Whare, otir\u0101, i te motu, te ao. Me mihi ki a koe m\u014D t\u014D \u0101hua i te r\u0101 nei. T\u0113r\u0101 pea he kupu k\u014Drero t\u0113r\u0101 kia \u016Bhia an\u014Dtia r\u0101 ki runga i ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau e tangi nei i t\u0113nei w\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, koutou e tangi nei i t\u0113nei r\u0101, anei te Whare P\u0101remata o Aotearoa e tuku ana i ng\u0101 poroporoaki ki \u014D koutou mate ahakoa n\u014D hea w\u0113r\u0101 mate, n\u014D t\u0113hea takiw\u0101 o te ao hei t\u0101piri ki t\u0101 koutou e tangi nei i t\u0113nei w\u0101. Koutou i mate i te \u0101huatanga o aitu\u0101, tau atu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u0112ngari, anei t\u0113nei Whare P\u0101remata e tangi nei m\u014D te \u0101huatanga o te r\u0101wekeweke i a koutou. E te Whare P\u0101remata, kei te tautoko ake te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i t\u0101 te Pirimia e k\u014Drero nei. H\u0101unga te \u0101huatanga pakanga waiho t\u0113r\u0101 ki te taha. Ko t\u0101 te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori e k\u012B nei me whakaaro t\u0101tau m\u014D te hunga mate, te hunga kua k\u014Dhurutia, kua mate, \u0113hara n\u014D r\u0101tau te h\u0113 \u0113ngari, n\u014D te \u0101huatanga tohe a t\u0113tahi i t\u0113tahi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI roto i Te Ao M\u0101ori, in\u0101 mate te tangata kua noho tapu t\u0113r\u0101 hei w\u0101hi tapu. E kore t\u0113tahi e r\u0101wekeweke \u0113ngari, ka manaakitia t\u0113r\u0101 w\u0101hi whenua, ka tiakinatia kia noho tapu ki te tirohanga o te tangata. K\u0101re t\u0101tau i te kite i t\u0113r\u0101 \u0101huatanga i t\u0113nei w\u0101. Ka haere poka noa te tangata ki runga i te whenua. K\u0101re \u014Dna take m\u014D te \u0101huatanga o t\u0113r\u0101 hunga i k\u014Dhurutia. N\u014D reira, \u0113hara i te mea m\u014D Te Ao M\u0101ori t\u0113nei whakaaro ake kia noho tapu te whenua, k\u0101o, m\u014D te nuinga o te ao. Kia p\u0113r\u0101 rawa te \u0101huatanga o te tiaki hunga mate. Kia kaua e r\u0101wekeweke. Waiho r\u0101tau kia moe, kia okioki. Kia kaua e takatakahi i te hunga mate. He r\u0101 t\u014Dna pea ka hoki mai ki te ngau i a koe \u0113ngari, waiho t\u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero ki reira. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EKoinei te k\u014Drero ka \u0101kina e te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, waiho te hunga mate ki te hunga mate whakahokia ki \u014D r\u0101tau wh\u0101nau. Kai Ahitereira, kai Tatimana, kai ng\u0101 t\u014Dpito katoa o te ao \u0113tahi wh\u0101nau e tangi nei, e auw\u0113 nei, e noho mokemoke nei, e noho pouwaru nei n\u0101 ng\u0101 mate e takoto mai r\u0101 i t\u0113r\u0101 whenua o Ukraine, me k\u012B. Ko te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori t\u0113nei e k\u012B nei, ahakoa t\u014D m\u0101tau pakupaku, whakahokia ng\u0101 t\u016Bp\u0101paku ki \u014D r\u0101tou wh\u0101nau kia taea ai e r\u0101tau te tuku roimata, h\u016Bp\u0113 kia ng\u0101wari mai ai t\u0113nei mea a mate. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tau katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us all in the House. Your prayer today, Mr Speaker, was really an appropriate way to commence our addresses on this matter. There was a plea there to the spiritual realm to protect this House, and indeed the nation and the world. I commend you for the compassion you displayed today. Perhaps there was a plea there as well to protect the families grieving at this point in time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAnd so, to you collectively grieving today, here is the Parliament of New Zealand offering its tributes to your dead, regardless of where they are from, and which area of the world, and adding to your laments at this point in time. To you, the dead, victims of the circumstance of calamity, alight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBut here in this House of Parliament we grieve for the meddlesome manner that brought about your death. To the House of Parliament, we the M\u0101ori Party absolutely endorse the Prime Minister\u2019s sentiments. We will leave the situation relating to the war to one side. We the M\u0101ori Party advocate that we should focus our minds on the dead, the ones who were treacherously murdered, who died through no fault of their own, but rather through the circumstance of contention between one and another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhen a person dies, in M\u0101oridom that place becomes a sacred one, a forbidden place. No one can meddle with it, but instead that place is protected and looked after so that it remains sacred to one\u2019s view. To date we have not seen that situation. People merely tramp about on the land. They display no respect for those people who were treacherously murdered. This regard for the land to remain sacred is therefore not just a M\u0101ori thing but one that most of the world has as well. And that is the level of respect expected for those who have died. They must not be meddled with. They should be allowed to sleep and rest. The dead must not be violated. A day might perhaps come when they come back and bite you, but leave that sort of talk there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThis is what the M\u0101ori Party urges: leave the dead amongst the dead, but return them to their families. There are some families in Australia, Holland, and in every extremity of the world, mourning, crying and left lonely and widowed by the dead lying over there in the land of Ukraine. This is the M\u0101ori Party saying that despite the fact that we might be small in number, we demand that the deceased be returned to their families, to enable them to shed their tears and mucus upon them, and to ease the pain from this thing called death. Thank you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de438ed8accd4e36a54ff5945ea38f78\u0022\u003EGaza\u2014Conflict\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5f563161f3c4a41b7ab52498b7b0bc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5f563161f3c4a41b7ab52498b7b0bc6\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice in relation to the situation in Gaza.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225003c5cafd2e41c0ae42606c8ebc706f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022147a6511e7214260be9508faf64591d3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That this House express grave concern at the deteriorating situation in Gaza, particularly the appalling and unacceptable number of civilian casualties, and express strong support for international efforts to obtain an immediate ceasefire and end hostilities, so that both parties can return to negotiations and work towards a permanent two-State solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EOn 17 July, after 10 days of heavy shelling in response to rocket fire from Gaza-based militants, Israel launched a ground invasion of the Gaza Strip. We have expressed our concern at the latest escalation of this conflict, the origins of which include the kidnapping of three Israeli teens on the West Bank in early June. Indiscriminate firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel by Hamas and other groups is unacceptable and must immediately cease. Israel has the right to defend itself from these attacks. Israel\u2019s citizens who live in towns near the Gaza Strip live in daily fear of rocket fire. At the same time, the nature of Israel\u2019s response has resulted in deep international concern at the growing number of civilian deaths. Israel is providing warnings to evacuate areas prior to striking them, but in many cases the people of Gaza, 75 percent of whom are refugees, have nowhere to go. The United Nations reports that the humanitarian conditions in parts of Gaza are dire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIt is clear that both sides have breached international law by failing to protect civilians, including firing indiscriminately into civilian populations. This challenges basic principles of acceptable international behaviour. For the sake of their people, both sides must agree to an immediate and lasting ceasefire. This is imperative. We have been deeply disappointed that, to date, ceasefire initiatives have failed. We urge all parties to continue efforts to de-escalate the situation. Last week we added our voice to the United Nations Security Council\u2019s call for a ceasefire, but we also strongly support United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon\u2019s visit to the Middle East in an effort to mediate a cessation of hostilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EOnce a ceasefire has been obtained, there is an urgent need to address the underlying causes of this conflict, to avoid a repetition of these dreadful events in another 2 years\u2019 time. This pattern of conflict has gone on too long. We have consistently called for the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict through negotiations. These latest incidents reinforce the importance of a sustainable resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The New Zealand Government wants to see a permanent two-State solution, so that both parties can live in peace and security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00222a838a26f2ba455fb679f5a8c7ebfec5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a838a26f2ba455fb679f5a8c7ebfec5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Party joins with this Parliament in calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and, in so doing, expresses its support for the Government\u2019s motion expressing grave concern at the ground invasion of Gaza and at the firing of rockets into Israel. To date, there have been more than 500 Palestinians killed in Gaza\u2014most of them women, children, and non-combatants. No parent and no humanitarian could fail to be deeply moved by this tragic suffering. Twenty-five Israeli soldiers and two Israeli civilians have also been killed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe death toll, however, reveals the disproportionate nature of this conflict. It is impossible to conduct a ground war and use F16s and missiles in such a congested area where 1.6 million people live on a strip of land without innocent people being killed. Neither should rockets simply be fired into Israeli civilian areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe should also not forget that this violence is symptomatic of other issues that have never been resolved. No population should live behind barbed wire fences where electricity is rationed, food controlled, and people\u2019s ability to move in and out of Gaza constrained. What sort of future can young Gazans look forward to where unemployment is 40 percent and there is no ability to escape? The seeds of future conflict are being sown in the inability of Israel, Palestine, and the international community to make the tough decisions to end the current stand-off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EUntil now no side has been willing to agree to a ceasefire. Pressure needs to be applied to ensure that that happens. Our Government should have already told the Israeli Ambassador to New Zealand that although we recognise the right of both the State of Israel and the Palestinian State to exist in peaceful coexistence, we condemn the loss of many innocent lives. Our ambassadors around the world should likewise be sending an unequivocal message to their Israeli counterparts and, where possible, Palestinian ones: New Zealand wants to see a peaceful, just end to the Middle East conflict.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022928e3561e816421b8c48f2f73d94e67e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022928e3561e816421b8c48f2f73d94e67e\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Yet again we have a round of mutual lethality between Israel and Hamas, except that the military asymmetry means that the death toll runs against Palestinians by a factor of several hundred to one. Some 500 Palestinian civilians have been killed, of whom 80 percent or more are children and elderly. Here are some: Hiji-ziya Hamed al-Hilu, aged 80; Saber Sukkar, aged 80; Salah Awad al-Nawasra, aged 6; Nidal Khalaf al-Nawasra, aged 5; and Mohammed Khalaf al-Nawasra, aged 4. Then we must mourn as well the murder of the teenagers. On the Israeli side: Eyal Yifrah, aged 19; Gilad Shaar, aged 16; Naftali Fraenkel, aged 16; and, on the Palestinian side, Mohammed Abu Khdeir, aged 16.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThis is an unmitigated tragedy all round. So how should New Zealand react to the latest crisis? What should the New Zealand policy be? The fundamental issue at stake in this crisis, from 1948 to 2014, is the occupation of Palestine by Israel. Everything emanates from this: the refusal to implement the UN framework for peace under the Oslo accords, the continuing and expanding settlements, the wall, which is judged by the World Court to be illegal, and the excessive use of force by Israel. This is not to condone the firing of rockets by Hamas. We do not condone violence by anyone. But let us recognise the violence of Hamas for what it is: a desperate attempt at resistance by an oppressed people. And so following, we must recognise Israel\u2019s violence for what it is: a continuation of oppression for an illusory kind of security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EAs it happens, the UN Charter requires a member State, when exercising self-defence, to immediately report it to the Security Council. I have scrutinised the formal communications to the Security Council over the past week, by both Israel, as member State, and Palestine, as observer State. Each advances its own case. Palestine, on 14 July, appeals for all possible measures by the international community to provide immediate protection to the Palestinian civilian population throughout the occupied State of Palestine \u201Cagainst the ongoing savagery and military aggression being perpetrated by Israel.\u201D On 16 July Israel calls on the international community to stop the attacks on Israeli citizens by unequivocally condemning Hamas and supporting Israel\u2019s right to defend its citizens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EIsrael justifies its actions in Gaza in the name of self-defence. The inherent right of self-defence, sanctioned in international law for several centuries now, does not justify what Israel is currently doing in Gaza. Most jurists around the world are describing the Israeli actions as an excessive use of force and a violation of humanitarian law. If this is self-defence, it is time the principle evolved in a manner that precludes this kind of response, for we all know that whatever the principle of self-defence might justify, it does not justify the kind of collateral civilian damage to Palestinians that we have been witnessing this past week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and for Israel to withdraw its military forces. We condemn the violence and invasion of Gaza and the disproportionate use of force by the Israeli military. We call on the United Nations Secretary-General to establish a fact-finding inquiry into the events and submit the report to the General Assembly and to Switzerland as the depositary Government of the Fourth Geneva Convention. We call on the New Zealand Government to call for a consideration by the UN of economic and other sanctions against Israel, as occurred with South Africa in the 1990s and 1980s. If the Security Council, in its ineffable wisdom, is unable to address the issue, perhaps the General Assembly can consider such a course of action under the Uniting for Peace precedent. We call on the Government to increase New Zealand humanitarian aid through appropriate UN agencies, targeted at relieving the human suffering in Gaza. We support the idea of Palestine acceding to the Rome Statute and referring a complaint to the International Criminal Court alleging individual leadership crimes against humanity by certain named leaders in the conflict. If Israel feels justified in referring Palestinians to the International Criminal Court, it only has to accede to the Rome Statute and join the court as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThere will be no end in sight to this conflict as long as there is a relationship of oppressed-oppressor in Israel and Palestine. Israel has a right to exist peacefully and securely, but it will not find this in the sustained, brutal, and dehumanising oppression of Palestinians. There will be no end in sight as long as the only options open to Hamas are surrender or resistance. The accord between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas went some way to recognising the legitimacy of each. I say this not to offer support for all policies of each but to reiterate that although the struggles and opinions of some might stir distaste, the grievances of a people deserve to be heard with open ears and to be engaged with respectfully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EI do not think that power over others will ever lead to lasting peace for Israel. Work needs to be done to build mutual respect for the lives and livelihoods of Palestinians and Israelis. This will need an abundance of empathy and a re-humanising of each other in the other\u2019s eyes. No doubt, crimes have been committed against civilians by both military groups, and both require condemnation, but in the longer term peace requires a political realignment and a refashioning of mind-set, perhaps on all our parts, before a settlement is achieved and peace is finally secured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5c31bf85bef48cd910a7831281c0d70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5c31bf85bef48cd910a7831281c0d70\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First joins with other parties in this House in expressing grave concern at the deteriorating situation in Gaza. All parties to that conflict must step back from the brink of so much mutual destruction. We concur in expressing our support for international efforts to obtain an immediate ceasefire and to end hostilities. We trust that those international endeavours be both quick and effective. Both parties to the conflict must return to negotiations and work towards a permanent solution that will ensure peace and stability for all the people of that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223664acc3a9af4a08a6e63a136c36fee4\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a06a40fc76a40c5b1a86c390bc60667\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f043df7b214944d1bde6a7b1edbbdc53\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u2014Unemployment, Government Debt, and Homeownership Rate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022649369f056a2414ea59b3941829a7b52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022649369f056a2414ea59b3941829a7b52\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his statement: \u201CWe have a plan, and that plan is working for New Zealand.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00229b0fbfa194f7415780e9dc496c9f21da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b0fbfa194f7415780e9dc496c9f21da\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Absolutely!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bdf1200bcbf4e718a6414aee6585511\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Just a few of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279af7ad25208464cbef982a23293923f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: You will hear it in the campaign, son.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a61e6032cd0c44289a3e81376ddf96b3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Supplementary question, the Rt Hon Winston Peters. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207289e19b7444c5ca19029cd0401ce4c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you think manual labour is the Prime Minister of Mexico, don\u2019t you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c801ebd6734460d858d10831bf8f4c9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The interjections coming from the right-hand back of the House will cease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e44eb4c27743a190f79e69b0367a72\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for bringing order, Mr Speaker. If the plan is working, why are well over 148,000 Kiwis unemployed and a further 100,000 seeking much more work than they have currently got?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe067e260eb74048bc9ea64a9e8b8a39\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, the unemployment rate in New Zealand is falling. The participation rate in New Zealand is dramatically increasing. I would be a bit cautious about quoting those numbers, because that is off the household labour force survey and it indicates anybody who is looking for 1 hour of work or more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc1a89171568421f8ef0e621c63e26c5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If the plan is working, why is New Zealand\u2019s total international debt at a staggering $150 billion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f0c67156f75474bb8a7be50f89519ea\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It depends on how the member is measuring that, but I would indicate that, of course, over the last 5 or 6 years the Government has borrowed. If the member is going to come with me down to Christchurch and tell the people of Christchurch that New Zealand First does not care about them and would not have borrowed money to support them, then I really look forward to the member standing next to me and saying to the people of Christchurch: \u201CIt\u2019s common sense just to leave you behind.\u201D A National Government would not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c91cca3933447c59b36d53efd818772\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If the plan is working in what a former Prime Minister called a property-owning democracy, why is homeownership at its lowest percentage rate since 1951? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270fba321ba674f6ea538b360aef3ff8a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I want to hear the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227717c84c6e4d40aab2b1b2a0ffd585ec\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: We might dispute the fact, but what we can say is that the Government has a comprehensive plan that is actually starting to work in relation to homeownership, and if the member wants to support us in terms of reform of the Resource Management Act, which will allow us to speed up that process even more, again, he should feel free to come over here and put his warm little hand in mine and together we can sing a song. It is common sense to have reform of the Resource Management Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0365328bccc41cfa20a5d41d8efa02a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If the plan is working in a country where a former National labour Minister knew the name of every unemployed person because there were only 29 of them, how come 22 percent of M\u0101ori and 25 percent of Pasifika people aged between 15 and 24 are unemployed in their own country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba65e2e4aba943ac840caf20c19160c4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I think that the time at which a Minister of Labour could name every single person who was unemployed was the time when moas were around in New Zealand. I do not think that has worked terribly well. But the reality is that the Government has been investing heavily in a range of areas to deliver economic growth and it is working for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a296f1cb9a440a3bd32ee8ab1b532de\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If the National Party was \u201Cworking for New Zealand\u201D, why would it have to say it and spend millions in public relations trying to hawk that delusional message?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224677013417464d42903fce31d9363a0c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The party is running a campaign message that it is working for New Zealand because that reflects a Government that over the last 6 years has worked very hard for the people of New Zealand across a wide range of areas. It also reflects a party that has received significant support from New Zealanders on the back of the fact that they do believe, in fact, that it is working for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002281464b55443546118f78925bbf1a7185\u0022\u003ERegional Economies\u2014Employment, Development, and Economic and Social Inequality\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022a94dc15513c3440a898ef4734fbc7078\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a94dc15513c3440a898ef4734fbc7078\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements on regional development, if so, how many regions of New Zealand now have a lower number of people unemployed according to the Household Labour Force Survey compared to when he took office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022865e267639b5455e92768dc4af00dcae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022865e267639b5455e92768dc4af00dcae\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Three regions currently have fewer people looking for work than in the March quarter of 2009. But, more important, eight regions have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd07f69ce23a4d81b9d8c15d6fa06454\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister is not addressing the question, which was in how many regions there are a lower number of people unemployed. That is different from how many people are looking for work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022031dfc0c7ef042d788044ff37855a4cf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The member will resume his seat. I will listen to the answer that is being given by the Prime Minister. My first indication is that he was addressing the question, but I will listen carefully and make a decision when he concludes his answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f336ab700b04be49f732d31450485c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is yes. Three regions currently have fewer people looking for work than in the March quarter of 2009, but, more important, eight regions have more people actually with a job than in March 2009, and across all of New Zealand in the last year 84,000 more people were employed, fewer people were unemployed, and the unemployment rate has dropped to 6 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202a79c1d470d48bfb157f74af4abbe4e\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister understand that the regions are not doing well under his Government when the only region to have fewer people unemployed now is Canterbury, and despite the rebuild there are only 200 fewer people unemployed than in 2008, or is higher unemployment his definition of New Zealand working?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a51fc23b5f7a4aff86a1c2f8608de229\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, the regions are, for the most part, doing pretty well. But I know two ways to help the regions. One of them would be to ensure that when there is a natural disaster and timber is blown over in the regions, rather than allowing it to rot, you would actually pick it up, mill it, and create jobs. I know another way, and that is when 3,000 people\u2019s jobs in Southland are on the line, you provide a bit of support to get them through it. But I do know of cases where unemployment might rise, and they are in Northland and Napier, and the reason I know that is that they are the places where Labour candidates have been talking to the Sunday Star-Times about the leader\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022109042ef389547859129707508c55f42\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That answer will not help the order of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218b938f088a443648e1fa072c8622c41\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister understand that people are not doing well in his regions when 13 out of 16 regions have lower weekly median incomes now than when he took office\u201413 out of 16 regions are worse off after his GST and price increases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac188c67bc3e43498be7c904a238f0b8\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: We do not accept the member\u2019s numbers or versions of events. But here is what we do know about the regions: they rely very heavily on agriculture, on oil and gas, and on minerals. They also rely on businesses that are taxed fairly. What are the Labour Party policies? Oh, that is right! It is to get rid of agriculture with the Greens, get rid of oil and gas exploration, and put a capital gains tax on every business around the regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9ed805252884aa983b5268c22869809\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Prime Minister pinning all his hopes for regional development on the dairy industry when dairy prices have already collapsed 30 percent in the last 6 months, and Federated Farmers has told me that 20 percent of farmers will go to the wall if the payout hits $6?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ce79094dec540c8a347aaa2e724afab\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The member has named more crises in the last 10 months than people who actually support him in his own caucus, so let us get that bit right for a start off. Secondly, yes, dairy prices have come off a little bit from their absolute high, but I am proud to lead a political party that actually supports agriculture and rural New Zealand. We support them with a fair emissions trading scheme, not one that is going to whack a massive price on agriculture. We support them through roading development in the regions. We support them with ultra-fast broadband. We support them with investment in science. We support them with irrigation and water schemes. We support them on a number of different fronts. When the member went to Federated Farmers, my understanding was that he got a reception very similar to the one he got at his caucus meeting today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eea7e450073344fca75d101eadffa134\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: If the Prime Minister cares so much about regional development, why was the best he could tell the Local Government New Zealand conference in Nelson this morning that he was going to hand it over to social media to come up with flimflam ideas on red tape because his team cannot do the work for themselves, and why will he not do something more constructive, like put up $200 million of major partnership projects like a Labour Government would, which was very well received by Local Government New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f66d8789e9f440658b8005f8148e199a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The member got one thing right. I have got a team and I do not call my team members scabs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d0c5f6c811d48868486cd8369aa22b2\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211d639d9e6af4345b2890650b1dba476\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! This is a point of order and I will hear it in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229df76c29ec01462c9f367d91589afd4d\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I have just sat back and watched the Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c39c04b0cf3408ebcd19047d5fdbf9f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Would the member just come to his point of order\u2014[Interruption] Order! I say to Mr Brownlee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bd711a018894e979233c42268aada42\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014make insinuations about the Labour caucus, which had nothing to do with his portfolio or the answers to his questions. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a55b2ec9faa743418837cca9d7748f01\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228318e42a1a7544ae9a8861fd24daf130\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, if I may, I want to put on record that my caucus is a hard-working\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213625625288149e2b63042d98bffbb01\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member\u2014[Interruption] Order! I gave the member considerable opportunity to come to a point of order that may have been relevant. In my opinion, he did not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227587dbb03c5e4d199f61dbf7b0a7c950\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292595097b334408c921c05b988765027\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a fresh point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b172fc0e527d4e28acf144efcbcbe1ee\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Just to clarify your ruling, are you saying that the Prime Minister was within the Standing Orders with his last answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7c514b897ed4dc7a86ab653b91a4937\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am. In light of the question that was asked, I am certainly not saying there was anything unparliamentary in the answer. The answer probably, in fact, certainly was not helpful to the order of the House. I then listened to the point of order, and the member was using the point of order to make a statement that was not actually relevant to the order of this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ebb2f7997c4401e8e16f4657f562045\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think his personal brand of wit is going to help New Zealanders when half the families in Kawerau live on less than $40,000 a year, a third of the town depends on a benefit, and in other areas over half the families earn over $100,000 and less than 10 percent are dependent on a benefit, or is he happy with that kind of game of two halves and with making jokes about politics, instead of helping New Zealanders in their lives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245500de2576d486dae6df867780ccdd8\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I could take the member seriously if he was actually prepared to support economic development initiatives, but unfortunately his record, and the Opposition\u2019s record over the course of the last 6 years, has been to oppose every decent economic development initiative. If the member thinks that whacking up a $200 million slush fund over 4 years to try to compensate for being opposed to agriculture, opposed to mining, putting on capital gains taxes, and increasing all sorts of other costs is somehow going to stop things\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ce65a98905340cbaafe66c0608d2b1a\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder whether you could clarify whether it is in order for the Prime Minister to mischaracterise Labour\u2019s policies, instead of actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022813c9ed04ff941b48479b724933cb376\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member is now, on two occasions, using a point of order to try to make what is effectively a political statement. He can do that by asking the right sort of question in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222795ccd938bd430cb82bebab5b95c567\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: When there are regions like \u014Cp\u014Dtiki where one in five working-age people is on a benefit and the community is crying out for job opportunities, does it not make sense to spend on projects to create an economic step change, rather than spend millions of dollars every year on welfare, or does he think that is a joke too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f78405c3f344246b74bf8afe45fcdbf\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It might make sense for individual projects, but I would make the point that every time the Government has suggested that there are individual projects that might have some merit, the Opposition has voted against them. So it is all very well coming into this House now, 61 days out, with a party that is in absolute disarray, trying to make out that he cares about New Zealanders, but he does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c64be70bc11b4f4299f85978e7102c91\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister understand that the regions of New Zealand are not doing well under his Government when the number of young people not in education, employment, or training has risen in three-quarters of the regions, under his Government, with devastating social consequences?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae0dbbcea8424cf1a2a48e63880dcbe9\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, a lot of the regions are doing particularly well, and they can do better when they are given the opportunities to do better, which is why reform of the Resource Management Act would help them. That is why irrigation schemes across New Zealand may make a significant difference. That is why expanding the oil and gas and mineral sectors across the regions might make a difference. The member\u2019s own candidates are out there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228619ef59997c4ab8babcb4e14197b47f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The answer is sufficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022326af5d3b7f643158ae94e4e1e78615f\u0022\u003EBetter Public Services Targets\u2014Purpose, Impact, and Reporting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022794fc6aaef8445b08395709f2c4fc171\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022794fc6aaef8445b08395709f2c4fc171\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What measures has the Government taken to support New Zealand families\u2014particularly through delivering better public services to those most in need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022001fac8b30c24f738f2156ceaa410ad6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022001fac8b30c24f738f2156ceaa410ad6\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Two years ago the Prime Minister set 10 challenging results targets for Ministers and the Public Service that focus on helping some of New Zealand\u2019s most vulnerable people. These targets are transparent and updated publicly every 6 months. The latest update yesterday confirmed that the Government is making good overall progress in reducing welfare dependency, supporting vulnerable children, boosting skills in employment, reducing crime, and improving citizens\u2019 interaction with the Government. More school-leavers are attaining National Certificate of Educational Achievement level 2, for instance. More New Zealanders are moving off welfare into work, and crime is falling. As we said yesterday, there is more to do in some areas, but overall these indicators show that we are moving in the right direction on some of our more challenging social problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e65aa29d5f0e4461ae4a0ef659b6021d\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government set 10 challenging Public Service targets 2 years ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221329d1071139467dbe88e1faa8f3f60d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Because we found that the Public Service, which had had large amounts of extra money up to 2008, was not thinking hard enough about what results the Government was trying to achieve for people, whereas it was quite good at thinking about how to get more funding for its departments. We also felt that the Government should put itself to the test by being held accountable as to whether it was achieving for New Zealanders the kind of results that taxpayers expect when they hand over billions of dollars a year to be spent on public services. What we have learnt from this exercise is that what works for the community\u2014a safer community, a stronger community\u2014is also good for the Government\u2019s books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fb189b692b1486fb50bf4e5023bfa4e\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Has he asked the Minister responsible for Better Public Services result No. 8, the Hon Judith Collins, why she did not inform him in 2012 that she knew that recorded crime statistics in her own electorate and South Auckland were incorrect, thus undermining the integrity of the Better Public Services results; and, if she did ask her, what was her answer; and, if he did not ask her, why has he not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e305046825c48219366360ce500257d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I expect that the Minister was not asked that question. Crime is clearly falling. The police\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d94e6702cd814e6bbed67eb1c5a68462\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b66598b00a14e59aa36075cf5fa0d56\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267484a3d452b43af911dbc82f1b590f4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a4474446e9e42c9a22062d6b79fde6f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: We know that the Labour Party does not trust the police, but we do. The Police Commissioner\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db31c140b4b6423ab43abe1ca6db05da\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is question time. My question was specific. It had two parts. But it is not an opportunity for the Deputy Prime Minister to misrepresent Labour Party policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdfb4a0c1098417b81297e6f58381aa3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I struggle to accept the member\u2019s point that the question was specific. It was quite a long question. I accept it was in two parts. I attempted to write it down. I guess the way forward is to invite the member to ask his question again, but if he could make it more succinct it would help me perhaps get the answer the member might be expecting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e39a4ce5e26d4ec2980322e8e1fef294\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Has he asked the Minister responsible for Better Public Services result No. 8, the Hon Judith Collins, why she did not inform him in 2012 that she knew that recorded crime statistics in her own electorate and South Auckland were incorrect; and, if he has not, why has he not asked her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221afe83c9eec4d95a3801fe01b3c4b26\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No. The subsequent comments of the Minister of Police have indicated that the police have moved to deal with what they are quite sure is a one-off situation. This is a matter of trust in the police. The Government trusts the police. The Opposition clearly does not. But the public do, and that is not the first time the Opposition has been out of step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204433fad35944684962798577cbb015a\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: What recent reports has the Minister received on the impact of the Government\u2019s significant support programmes on household incomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277b72e29cbd74cfbbe4a470b22fd67d4\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have received the latest annual household incomes report from the Ministry of Social Development, which is regarded as the most authoritative analysis on incomes in New Zealand. It notes that income inequality has been volatile in recent years, with the global financial crisis impacting on investment returns, employment, and wages. It concludes that there is no evidence of any general rise or fall in income inequality since the mid-1990s. The trend line is almost flat, and some people who have looked at it say that it is falling. There is no evidence of any general rise or fall in income inequality since the mid-1990s, so those who claim that income inequality in New Zealand is getting worse\u2014that is, those who claim the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer\u2014are simply not correct. The facts show that that is not the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ffbfc65115924865bc7711edfc40616f\u0022\u003EChild Poverty\u2014Impact of Government Policies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022639ba7f0eb524c4b954a656985686e06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022639ba7f0eb524c4b954a656985686e06\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002227b726f25b2146debae6f78cee1f6f0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227b726f25b2146debae6f78cee1f6f0b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d6ca217013d4eb6901fae4873d373c7\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that his policies have failed the 35,000 more children now living in severe poverty\u2014that is, in families living on less than half the median income after housing costs\u2014since he became Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d32251d491dc436b87e534482733613c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dce913dc1aed459db07807665200abf6\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Is his Government responsible at all for the fact that 205,000 New Zealand children are now living in severe poverty\u2014that is, in families living on less than half the median income after housing costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fea6d8b4454b40cda601ca7b47aea19e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, I would question the member\u2019s facts. Secondly, I would say that the Government is providing tremendous support across a range of different initiatives, and it has done so for a long time. It also borrowed significantly during the global financial crisis to support the most vulnerable New Zealanders. A number of parties in this Parliament already today have criticised the Government for borrowing to support those vulnerable New Zealanders, and I am a bit surprised by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e30230bfdab8476eb1d37e9ce79c68c1\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that his Better Public Services targets for reducing the Third World disease rheumatic fever are failing, and that, in fact, there were 26 more children hospitalised for rheumatic fever last year than the year before, and the overall rate of rheumatic fever has increased under his Government by 16 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dfa4b3e34064211aa14af2800fdd333\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not think it is right to say it is failing. The Government has invested over $65 million in rheumatic fever. I think what is fair to say is that there is much more awareness of rheumatic fever since there has been a lot more reporting. I think there is a lot more to be done in that case, but the Government is running an intensive programme in schools and in hospital facilities to try to get on top of rheumatic fever, and it will continue to invest in that area because it is a Third World disease that New Zealand needs to eradicate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a830af8b67b4108bc10c875bd293249\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that rheumatic fever is a disease of poverty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff5aec2da6884cfe98303eb959b8173c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I think there are a number of reasons why there is rheumatic fever. It is largely attributed to overcrowding, but there is a range of reasons why there is rheumatic fever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238513cf52291424ca3c40e0a0acb664d\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the truth that his own data from his own Government agencies and his own targets now prove that his policies are driving children into severe poverty, that they are getting sick and in some cases are dying as a result of that sickness, and that all children in New Zealand deserve a Government that will put their interests first?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abc63a9c7e334b669896aafb4fc144d0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I simply do not accept that. I think that the Government over the course of the last 6 years has done the best it can, in the conditions it has inherited, globally and domestically, to support the most vulnerable New Zealanders. I know that that member lives in a dream world where she believes she can say no to every economic initiative and at the same moment promise the earth to every New Zealander, but everybody knows she is not credible when it comes to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223342b4457f0f46b5a103e6e7c4f0eb28\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Earlier on you admonished members on this side of the House for including political material in an inappropriate situation. The Prime Minister in pretty much every answer he has given today has done that. You have slowly risen to your feet occasionally to bring him to order, but you have actually not done so yet again here, and I just want to seek some clarification that the pattern will now continue where he can say whatever he likes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1104d7c81074236a0e12b11d990b9f8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! There is no pattern in this House whereby the Prime Minister can say whatever he likes. [Interruption] Order! If members want to stay for the balance of question time, I expect some cooperation when I am on my feet, and that includes the very front bench and senior members of the Labour Party. I invite members, when they consider that question and answer, to go back and look at the tone of the question that was asked. Further supplementary\u2014[Interruption] Order! I will issue the final warning to the Hon Annette King. If she interjects again like that, with that sort of barrage, I will be asking her to leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022283e32457ebe451aa63d31466d4d42a1\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think that 205,000 children living in families with less than half the median wage have enough to thrive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddaef99be21a4740a865b813295a17ef\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I thought the member was finishing the question. What I do think is that the fastest way to move\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228957f9c46307459baf8ae143d94a999f\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You are just not paying attention, Mr Speaker, so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ce9198808764f8dae1ebd91168ad1ef\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will withdraw that remark immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e618dc60dca14b3ea26515f6657807c8\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Given the Prime Minister\u2019s failure to hear the question, I seek your leave to repeat the question for him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022822f57d9ceb849eabb106fce0d596718\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. That is in order, because he was not the only one who failed to hear the end of it; I failed to hear it, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3abdb8fd98c4eadb8cef9ce96705336\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think that the 205,000 children living in families with less than half the median wage have enough to thrive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c38e5209ef7b4d4d83bf301826b51bb3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I think the fastest way to help those children out of poor economic conditions\u2014although I do not necessarily accept her analysis of all of them\u2014is to get those families into work. What I know is that the Green Party is opposed to jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022439f6a9cc8ad40149272a5dbbf91a495\u0022\u003EWelfare Reforms\u2014Progress\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u00224fd8987c513b455db13094b27bd66b84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fd8987c513b455db13094b27bd66b84\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: What reports has she received about the progress of the Government\u2019s welfare reforms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022a69a0e06849c49aa8e0225c507158f5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a69a0e06849c49aa8e0225c507158f5d\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen reports where over the last 2 years we have nearly 30,000 fewer children living in welfare-dependent homes. We are making great progress getting people off welfare and into work, with over 1,500 going into work each week. Overall, the number of people on a benefit has fallen by more than 16,000 over the last year. The number of people on a benefit peaked in December 2010 after the global financial crisis. There are now nearly 60,000 fewer people on a benefit than then, and sole parents continue to lead the way, with a significant 10.7 percent drop over the last year alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266434138280e4cb091d657d84e17d76b\u0022\u003EAlfred Ngaro\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has been made towards reaching the Better Public Services target of significantly reducing long-term benefit dependency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c18ecec2cfe34182bd747460e787c296\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I am very pleased that we are on track to achieve a 30 percent reduction in the number of people who have been continuously receiving working-age job seeker support benefits for more than 12 months. Over the year to March 2014 the number of people on job seeker support for more than 12 months dropped by 6,434 to 68,932. That is an 8.5 percent decrease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e02fcfa640524ac29599bed383d721a1\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: How many people have been affected by her decision to no longer allow a person working 30 hours a week to have their income topped up by a main benefit, even if their wages are so low they cannot support themselves or their family?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c76c6f1539ea4a149b06aa01f677cc9c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have that exact number in front of me, but what I will say is that for anyone working more than 20 hours a week, even on the minimum wage, by the time you add in the in-work tax credit, Working for Families, and the accommodation supplement that they are likely to be eligible for, they are better off than they would have been on benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002259ff5c35561a453f80223b7f7a49ca81\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014Dairy and Timber Processing Industries and Economic Programme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002257714c555fb4411f8a8a01a3d90afce7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257714c555fb4411f8a8a01a3d90afce7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Has he seen reports that $4 billion to $5 billion will be sucked out of the economy due to the 35 percent fall in dairy prices since February, and what policy responses, if any, does he intend to make to counteract this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022970f642f3f174b5f9c09e8df50b00469\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022970f642f3f174b5f9c09e8df50b00469\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen some reports that show that, like opinion polls, dairy prices go up and down. I can tell the member that we do not intend to counteract the drop in dairy prices by trying to shut down the industry, as Labour and the Greens are promising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f3aced4ee3544ac9fd6a3ddad77d7d8\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Goldman Sachs and Rabobank that there will be an oversupply of dairy products worldwide for the next 5 years, putting more downward pressure on prices, and what plan does he have to improve the New Zealand economy in light of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1c25e5cf29e4a579e590bca20eef81b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: In the first place, the dairy industry itself has a proud record of global competitiveness and resilience, and I am quite confident that it will manage any fluctuation in prices that occur over the next few years. I might say that prices right now are still at relatively high levels. The decrease we have seen has been from record highs. The decrease was not unexpected. As I said, the dairy industry will deal with it. The Government, of course, is proceeding with its Business Growth Agenda, which is producing some quite impressive results\u2014for instance, a significant number of IT companies now listing for the first time on the stock exchange, enabling diversification of investment for New Zealand savers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228672eb51436349a096fb7bc7e67153bc\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Well, then does he not regret doing virtually nothing about the wood-processing industry decline, which has seen large job losses that are concentrated in the regions, and now, after having less added value and fewer jobs, face the consequences of a massive drop in log prices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022977f5fac5ea044d89fe0b1647bac53a7\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: There have been some job losses in that sector, including, I might say, in my own electorate. But the member is painting a partial picture. There have, of course, been very high returns in the industry to forest owners and there have been significant other new investments in further processing. In any case, after 30 years of the Labour Party talking about trying to add more added value in timber in New Zealand, it has never come up with a scheme that succeeds and, of course, it never will. Bureaucrats and politicians do not understand the complexity of managing the risks of producing a natural product and selling it halfway across the world. Our timber industry does understand those risks. It does a remarkably good job of it in sometimes difficult circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1a4026290a94e0abaecc12726ab22d4\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Well, then, has he missed the public comments from the chief executive of Red Stag Timber who said that if Labour\u2019s forestry package was implemented, Red Stag Timber would invest immediately an additional $120 million in forest processing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1c7049fec9e43ffafe9e1c8fbefe669\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Bill English, in as far as he has ministerial responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022610abf2854ca4b558dce74b9bfde06e8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen the comments, and it is not surprising that the person leading that company would invest more if he thought the Government was going to underwrite his risks. A lot of people would. Whether, of course, that is sustainable is a completely different issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209bec04e5ffc44b4bb828d54a0614f5b\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the trade-weighted index and the New Zealand dollar are still at elevated levels despite the prices of two of our major exports, logs and dairy, collapsing in recent months, does he now accept that there is something wrong with monetary policy as well as tax and savings settings, or does he blame it on his failed housing policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0202e8aeda7402dba4ae31792770da2\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Now that the member has labelled it a crisis, I am sure it will start coming right, because that is the same thing that has happened with the regional crisis, the infrastructure crisis, the employment crisis, and the manufacturing crisis. Yes, the dollar is at elevated levels. One of the reasons for that, which the member should keep in mind, is the relatively strong performance of the New Zealand economy compared with other economies. The Kiwi dollar can buy more for households today than at any time in the last 50 years. We see that as a success, but, of course, it is an ongoing challenge for our export sector, and we back them by taking every measure we can to improve their competitiveness. The Opposition\u2019s policies are designed to hamstring, if not shut down, big parts of our export sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022645e274fa6dc446ab5c342355cbbf00e\u0022\u003EBetter Public Services Targets\u2014Student Achievement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00223b096cbc31584472b85adc7715ca1c13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b096cbc31584472b85adc7715ca1c13\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What progress is being made on Better Public Services targets in education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022 data-id=\u00227e37e134279642ad8308287791bc1fd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e37e134279642ad8308287791bc1fd0\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E \u0100, t\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Mana Whakaw\u0101, huri noa i t\u014D t\u0101tou Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e whakanui nei i t\u014D t\u0101tou Reo M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, Mr Speaker, and to us indeed throughout our House, honouring our M\u0101ori language.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EI can advise that good progress overall across the country is being made towards these targets. With early childhood education participation, the recent increase to 95.9 percent gives many more children the right start in life. For 18-year-olds with a minimum National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) level 2 qualification, achievement is up more than 10 percentage points since 2008. This shows what happens when school leaders, teachers, parents, communities, and public servants work together with a focus on achievement. This year I wrote to the principals and board chairs of nearly 80 schools that had significantly increased achievement in NCEA and congratulated them on their success. We should all applaud them for their efforts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238563c1428a64f9aa48ef58736b0c870\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister advise what approaches she is aware of that are making a difference to student achievement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c553ceca7a7452b8bf1f03ad3f67ea5\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: A number of approaches are making a difference, and central to these is collaboration. For example, we have around 200 secondary schools\u2014about half of all secondary schools\u2014participating in a targeted achievement drive, where the Ministry of Education, schools themselves, parents, and the communities are focused on identifying which children need support, what their needs are, and how to bring quality teaching and strong parental involvement to meet their needs. Although we are making good progress, it will get tougher as we continue towards our target. We are not shying away from that. That is why we are investing more in collaboration and the quality of teaching and leadership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e7597c22f1540399118fa58f8daed62\u0022\u003ECrime Statistics\u2014Reporting by Counties Manukau Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u002290d85cf882f642e1be887eae819383c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290d85cf882f642e1be887eae819383c3\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: When was the Minister of Police first informed of the misreporting of Police statistics in Counties Manukau, and what did she do with the information when she first received it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad846f398bee454d82b7211838e9bae2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad846f398bee454d82b7211838e9bae2\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I was briefed by Deputy Police Commissioner Bush on 21 May 2012 that a small number of staff in Counties Manukau south had been found to be incorrectly recoding burglaries and that employment investigations of the staff involved would be undertaken. During this briefing, I sought and received assurances that this was an isolated event and that police have appropriate checks and balances in place to ensure that crime statistics are accurate, including regular spot checks and audits. I also gave Minister Collins, as the local MP, a heads-up on this matter following this briefing. Since 2012 police have established a national data coordinator, recruited champions in each district to provide expertise to staff on data entry standards, and have ongoing programmes of education and training to ensure staff fully meet requirements when entering data into the police system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264059c7b77284841bd661e8c2172d1e3\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe it was appropriate for Judith Collins to choose not to pass on information relating to the misreporting of police statistics when she was made aware of it earlier in 2012?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c376faa1abd46d7a2eb423558ef70a4\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have no ministerial responsibility for any information that another Minister might have. However, I am aware that when I briefed Minister Collins, following my verbal briefing, she had heard some gossip about a senior\u2014[Interruption] If you let me finish\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac20c12156244d91a53ab32b1bee4b88\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Allow the Minister to complete her answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205967b53dba143a494a3886e69551b6b\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. She had heard some gossip about a senior police officer leaving the police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd28262727714b55a1335c8553850337\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What was the gossip?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c558713e999428e9668b32aa82c851e\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: This Government does not deal in gossip; this Government deals in facts, and the facts are that crime has fallen over the last 4 years by 20 percent. This Government supports the police, while the previous Government, under which crime rose, continues to try to undermine our police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ddca497f69943d0afceb68b34a72928\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister advised Judith Collins of the situation, did Judith Collins give her an explanation as to why she did not ask the police to investigate what she has labelled as gossip?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e6c8cc87903496c955ce697c8238384\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat that I have no ministerial responsibility for the actions of another Minister. My responsibility\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206fbe617f4834e9e8a5a743c7048973c\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister has absolute responsibility for whether she asked, and that is what she was asking, and to say that she does not is incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a20187a7ec0d447fbd0320f68df60c0a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is responsible now to answer to the House, and how she decides to answer to the House is for her to judge, and it is then for this House and the public of New Zealand to judge the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae5b764502a34fc685165d7507cba38f\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have no responsibility for other Ministers receiving gossip. What I had the responsibility for as the Minister of Police was receiving information from the police that there had been a problem\u2014a small problem\u2014with statistics. Less than 0.5 percent of the Counties Manukau statistics had been incorrectly coded. What I had responsibility for was making sure that a full investigation had taken place and seeking assurances from the police that this was a small, isolated incident that had been amended and that there was no further danger of statistics being wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d86876ca94a04f529751a25cbac5b3bb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister tell us whether under her watch and Ms Collins\u2019 watch the numbers of police per capita have gone down or up? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe8a80fb9fa340e6973af370b6bc6841\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister want the question again? Could the member please repeat the question as clearly as he can?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022017cc8d887514ee2a1792eb73b1d5b71\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: The police numbers per thousand under Ms Collins and herself\u2014have the numbers gone done or up after 2008?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e7d57cae44340e2b6cc6c98a62db059\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is very wide of the primary question. However\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022632d64f925744621a350a25d11ab20d0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have allowed the question, so the Minister can address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e718f1c2d6c84e5db0847948ceeb7218\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to say that there has been, per capita, as the population has risen\u2014and despite the fact that this Government has paid for an extra 600 police\u2014a slight decrease, but this Government has provided the police with mobile phones and iPads, and that has produced\u2014[Interruption] Members may laugh, but, actually, that has produced an efficiency the equivalent of an extra 354 police per year. So that has increased the per capita.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d36b6ca2606849c08b568d002531c5ab\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe it was appropriate for Judith Collins, in 2014 when discussing the declining crimes statistics, to say \u201CThe results are due to the hard work and dedication of many sectors within justice, and I know our Counties Manukau divisions are a big part of that.\u201D, given that she was made aware of the misreporting of statistics in Counties Manukau in 2012 and did not disclose that information to her or to the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022877aca58c38b41a79901297bbc401506\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is absolutely in order for Minister Collins to praise the hard work of the police in Counties Manukau, which has seen an extraordinary drop in reported crime right across the whole of Counties Manukau, and this Government\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af3efc75b5bb47fe8475e73e39cff76e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Could Mr Mallard please get himself under control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252f820a6f83e4729814189aedb7a9ca3\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: What I do find astounding is that members of the Opposition are determined to undermine the fantastic work of our police right across the country when today\u2019s front page of the New Zealand Herald actually talks about the hard work that they are doing on behalf of New Zealand citizens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222708337997bb486e9fb8876c86169d59\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: When she indicated that she was satisfied that misreporting of crimes statistics from 2009 was an isolated incident, what evidence had she seen to give her this confidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e01ad6013117480a893a640e6ae3052a\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I sought assurances from the Commissioner of Police\u2014and I trust the Commissioner of Police; I do not believe that the Commissioner of Police lies\u2014and he assured me that they had conducted spot audits. We are talking about 696 recoded burglaries out of a total of 1.25 million recorded offences. That is in the margin of error probably where the Labour Opposition enjoys wallowing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022622cb8f7ada14eceb2b22d38fed66674\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b24a2a283fb432aa8366e83600751a6\u0022\u003EBetter Public Services Targets\u2014Justice Sector\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b70dd74ede13447e9c2a8ffc8559ee5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b70dd74ede13447e9c2a8ffc8559ee5e\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E My question is to the Minister of Justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228687e661bf14629936aa1628d73593b\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Last chance, Tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce3122084b9845358856d14e07132a6e\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Your last chance. What recent Better Public Services\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022641e53ba42244fbd9e8ab638606ef286\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Would the member like to start again and could those on my left hand side cease the interjections, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bff0da29647d46a1a1486068bddf6adf\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: What recent Better Public Services\u2014[Interruption] Oh, talk to your husband.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224022dc5c9f754936b070abf2a7539364\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I know it is a big moment for the member, so I invite him to ask his question and I will not accept any interjection from my left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u002232e0905158024395b2c69b38a21e05e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232e0905158024395b2c69b38a21e05e9\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What recent Better Public Services results has she announced for the justice sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002216c2c8ae913542678a2ffd16ff11dde6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216c2c8ae913542678a2ffd16ff11dde6\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to have announced yesterday that the justice sector has already surpassed two of its four Better Public Services targets. As at 31 March the total crime rate was down by 16 percent against a 2017 target of 15 percent, and Youth Court appearances were down by 30 percent against a 2017 target of 25 percent. In addition, violent crime\u2014and Mr Mallard might want to hear about this\u2014was down by 11 percent against a target of 20 percent. The reoffending rate\u2014yes, Mr Mallard again\u2014was down by 12.2 percent against a target of 25 percent. Together with the Attorney-General, the Minister of Police, the Minister of Corrections, and the Minister for Courts I congratulate the justice sector agencies on their commitment to reducing crime and making New Zealand an even safer place for us all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7900ac785b34095a10c99d5ecbcaa45\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What justice sector initiatives will further reduce crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e977496f647648a0b1f37308f49919ec\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: The justice sector has a range of collaborative initiatives, including extending the very successful Hutt Valley innovation project to three additional areas, to enhance on-the-ground cooperation between agencies, and a major focus on family violence through the recently announced all-of-Government family violence response, which will include GPS monitoring of high-risk offenders, alarms for high-risk victims, improved court systems and processes to deal better with family violence, a review of the Domestic Violence Act, and additional community support to encourage communities to reject family violence. The sector, as a whole, is committed to continuing to reduce crime in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5bc8e55f8d64598a97a86146c22c796\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. What improvements are her Better Public Services measures showing in relation to access to justice following the 35 percent cut in legal aid funding since 2010, cuts in support for parties to Family Court proceedings, and cuts in court registry staff, causing more delays and greater injustice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6c4f93952c649ceaa562946dfeafc77\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: What we are seeing is a reduction in crime and a reduction in the number of people needing to use the courts. I have received just recently an oral report regarding the Family Court reforms that has shown that so far they have been very successful in helping to keep people out of court. Also, when it comes to people not committing crime, we do not need to have legal aid to help them, because they are not actually in court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ac69f879b81c4f1dac20ebb851922d61\u0022\u003EStudent Achievement\u2014Investing in Educational Success Programme and Class Sizes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022460ba88c945d4dc283537a1af9fb202e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022460ba88c945d4dc283537a1af9fb202e\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What evidence does she have that the Government\u2019s Investing in Educational Success programme, which removes teachers and principals from their classrooms for two days a week, is the best way to spend over $359 million in order to raise student achievement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022069c9630f7c64d9e934816023fbe5e9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022069c9630f7c64d9e934816023fbe5e9c\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Evidence from New Zealand and around the world informed the Government\u2019s Investing in Educational Success initiative. To save the House time, I would refer the member back to my response to question No. 7 from that member on 10 April of this year and to my subsequent responses to his repeated questions on the same subject. I suggest that the member spend time reading it as opposed to the other activities that the member might be spending his time less constructively on. In New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bc26d8664274074b21c1e6d48ca8212\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I think that answer is complete.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022630de1e2e04644dfadb4884f322fb8f9\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did she read the Treasury-commissioned working paper that found that smaller class sizes were associated with more completed education as of age 21, a lower incidence of unemployment, and shorter durations of unemployment for those who did experience it; if so, why did she instead choose to pay just 2 percent of teachers more, rather than lowering class sizes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205ef9e24d904403a9fb1cbc162ea7e2b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hon Hekia Parata, either of those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec9bfd1cf024414b8a2fdfb2d6bcdf80\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: I did not read that, although I did read the Sunday Star-Times. Professor Hattie, in his responses, talked about the fact that, certainly, by reducing class sizes by two or three, you will not see the difference at all. This has been tried in many, many countries and, quite frankly, it is not going to make a difference at all. However, can I also remind the member that in the period from 1998 to 2002, teacher numbers went up by 20 percent while student numbers went up by 5 percent, and yet achievement flat-lined under that former administration. Under our Government, teacher numbers have gone up by 15 percent while student numbers have gone up by 0.7 percent, and achievement has grown. So it is not either/or, I say to that member, it is how you invest in both the number of teachers and the quality of their teaching practice. That is what this Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022882fa529dcf5418b939613893cc4e12d\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Which of the following factors does she believe will be enhanced by the National Government\u2019s policy of bigger class sizes: teacher one-to-one time with each student, a teacher\u2019s ability to manage student behaviour, reciprocal teaching, feedback between teachers and students, and teacher professional development\u2014all of which rank higher in John Hattie\u2019s meta-study, which she just quoted, than many of the failed Government policies like charter schools and constant test-taking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244593e984ded4a09bdbed5dfe72d91c9\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite wrong. That is not our policy. Our policy is about an additional $359 million, investing quality teaching and leadership time. It is based on research from around the world. Indeed, the member is well aware that in many collective agreement negotiations, unions that support the member\u2019s party have argued for exactly this. What we are doing is recognising the education profession. We are proposing that 1,000 teachers will be recognised for their expertise\u2014that is, one in 50 teachers across the country\u2014and that 5,000 lead teachers will remain in their classrooms and continue to spread their expertise. It is based not only on research but on actual practice here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dc39b12698c4cacbfe7b40948026344\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What specific research can she point to that proves that the removal of a primary school teacher from their classroom for 2 out of 5 days in the week in every week will not impact on the achievement of their students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022780e6674741244e6a2fe55ebe536ee55\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: The 4.5 million release time hours that we already provide to schools every year. They develop their professional practice, they develop their expertise, and they come back into their classrooms better off as a result\u20144.5 million hours of teacher release time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf97eac6a64c4058a77fa0f922df266b\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen the report from the National Education Policy Center in the US that found that \u201CResearch supports the common-sense notion that children learn more and teachers are more effective in smaller classes.\u201D; if so, why does she continue to argue that paying 2 percent of teachers more is a better way of raising achievement for all students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257c4285348e446008c0127cdc51335ac\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: I have not seen that particular piece of research, but it also commented, by the way, on partnership schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225de6e1c895ae42148332ed3023734555\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Was it not in the Sunday Star-Times?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bb3b9a62cff41968d247807adfe1c6e\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you have more familiarity with the Sunday Star-Times, Mr Hipkins, than I do. What we do know is that unless the quality of the teaching improves, it does not have an effect, and so we are doing both. We have increased the number of teachers and are increasing our investment in the quality of their teaching practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d42f7bc2a1f04a2d8900597c84cca90e\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: You didn\u2019t increase the number of teachers at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba0d2351a0a8495e9b5cf6fe1dc98997\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: We have, by 15 percent\u2014if the member was listening\u2014in the last 5 years, while student numbers have gone up by 0.7 percent. Perhaps the member might like to use another supplementary question rather than barracking and not listening to my answers, which is so helpful!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251b862fc5f7446bebc72b2153f8fd027\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And that will be over to the member to determine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f6868cfe3bc4372a917b986746dd494\u0022\u003ENative Birds\u2014Conservation Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022 data-id=\u00223a957a142f774815be7a30092f78663c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a957a142f774815be7a30092f78663c\u0022\u003EPAUL FOSTER-BELL (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: What new initiatives has the Government taken in the Rimutakas and other areas to help the recovery of endangered native bird populations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022828379e88a2f411bb660662a5943b2de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022828379e88a2f411bb660662a5943b2de\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Last Friday, with the strong encouragement of Chris Bishop, the local National candidate, I announced a new conservation partnership with the Rimutaka Forest Park Charitable Trust for the recovery of the North Island brown kiwi. The initiative is particularly special because it will enable a vibrant population of kiwi over 7,000 hectares of forest, in close proximity to the capital and a large urban population. I am advised that without such initiatives, kiwi populations in the wild will go the way of the moa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa6f317e8e3e4ef2b5cca920f6cabe9a\u0022\u003EPaul Foster-Bell\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister considering reintroduction of moa to the Rimutaka Forest, as suggested by a local MP; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022788d2b2144c54bdbaf7bdff357a834e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No. National\u2019s focus is on practical conservation initiatives, rather than pipedreams. But I do note that kiwi and moa are from the same ancient descendants of the family of birds, and we could call this the mini-moa programme. I also note that the more distant relative of the kiwi and the moa, the mallard, is becoming increasingly endangered in the Rimutakas, but there is little support for a local recovery programme, and I am advised that it is likely to become extinct in late September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db3d3461a75246058d4d749a19bdca4f\u0022\u003EClimate Change\u2014Government Position\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7d3b220890d453cac96c8b693ef9691\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7d3b220890d453cac96c8b693ef9691\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all his statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd5f535eaa434ae7b472e08fbd4a6ef6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd5f535eaa434ae7b472e08fbd4a6ef6\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd98aae5fce74e82b842f5822dbb2ea1\u0022\u003EDr Kennedy Graham\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement to a public meeting at the Kelston Community Centre on 15 July that action on climate change is \u201Ca non-issue at the moment, because there are more pressing concerns.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f921433696a45999a1d2671ec14dfb8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I did make comments to that effect. I said the main issue is not climate change. There are a lot of other issues to work on before we get to that. I also said we can talk about this at a meeting, but people struggling to put food on the table have greater issues to worry about. The problem with the Greens is they do not see success when it is staring them in the face: low carbon prices, the shift to fuel-efficient technologies, and less use of cars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226de6221b77bf4ee199bdaf2337980410\u0022\u003EDr Kennedy Graham\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement of the same day, at the same meeting, that there is \u201Ca debate about the evidence on climate change, such as sea level rise\u201D, despite overwhelming scientific agreement that it is a fact?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243d002df97c74301bfed90512775e734\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think there is much debate about some aspects, such as the idea that more carbon produces global warming, but, as with any complex scientific idea, these different hypotheses are getting tested. Some will stand those tests, and some will not. But, again, I do not think that would be a topic high on the agenda at the kitchen tables in Kelston. I think that in Kelston they are probably more worried about the prospects of keeping their jobs, getting a new job, and where they can go to vote for the National Government, which seems to be really helping them out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8f71f14debe47fbaeb7dbb184dc7387\u0022\u003EDr Kennedy Graham\u003C/span\u003E: Does he understand that climate change means more extreme weather events like the floods and more droughts as those of 2013, which cost New Zealand\u2019s economy more than $2 billion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022900eabb019134d938c1eefd9a298fd11\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It may, or it may not. I have to say that explaining those floods in those terms is not a high priority for the Government. We have got to get in there and help clean up in Northland. We have got to pay attention to the resilience of the infrastructure, because we believe that adaptation to climate change is really important, and we want to get on with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002244b1b6e2e7dc421e862026780aab6c2a\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e69057d65fa4afc984b155910a2d6cf\u0022\u003ECrime Statistics\u2014Reporting by Counties Manukau Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002209253e4c25e642549cb5c28a38a726aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209253e4c25e642549cb5c28a38a726aa\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from Jacinda Ardern seeking to debate under Standing Order 386 the miscategorisation of official police crime statistics in Counties Manukau. This is a particular case of recent occurrence involving ministerial responsibility. Although the case relates to events that took place between 2009 and 2012, it has only just been revealed by the media. However, disciplinary action has been taken and spot audits are now routinely carried out. In these circumstances I am not persuaded that the matter deserves the immediate attention of the House by way of an urgent debate today. The application is therefore declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a00e6a82568a495ca0e265cf10ff7732\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bf307d76dc6a415cb7c106227171cfb8\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u2014Application\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef5f8d2091c0470387981695c9a144b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef5f8d2091c0470387981695c9a144b8\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think there may be a mistake, but we did put in an application on Gaza, I think. Is that right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002266520afa9a7e49e49bd8b7108c9e9061\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266520afa9a7e49e49bd8b7108c9e9061\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: My office was informed that there was a letter put in, which was subsequently withdrawn because there was a motion being debated in the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf40871f52364c4eb183a9a4bc7a7f75\u0022\u003EStanding Orders\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022804a0032e2cb40b0a73aa52417158873\u0022\u003ESessional\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022403209cc524e40dc8e77e0c7324337c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022403209cc524e40dc8e77e0c7324337c0\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That Genesis Energy Ltd be a public organisation for the purpose of Standing Orders. This is a process we have been going through with each of the mixed-ownership model companies. As a result of Genesis Energy ceasing to be a State-owned enterprise and becoming a mixed-ownership company, it ceases to be subject to ongoing financial reviews by a select committee. To ensure that Genesis Energy continues to be subject to financial reviews, we need to put this motion through the House, which deems Genesis Energy to be a public organisation under the Standing Orders. That will mean that when Genesis Energy\u2019s annual report is tabled in the House, it is then referred to a select committee for financial review. Following completion of their public offerings, Mighty River Power and Meridian Energy were deemed to be public organisations in the same way. Air New Zealand was also deemed to be a public organisation, and has been for some time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis is just part of the procedural tidy-up after the successful floats of 49 percent of these Government companies. The merits of the policy have been debated probably more extensively than any other single issue over the last 3 years, and the Government is pleased to note that after that debate and the sale of the assets there is around $4.7 billion that has been put into the Future Investment Fund, and that is now available to be recycled into other public assets\u2014a process that is well under way and from which thousands of New Zealanders will benefit. Particularly, I am pleased to see that some of this money is going into the rebuild of Christchurch schools, where we have a generational opportunity to spend $1 billion on new schools and upgrades, and to change the way that the schooling system operates in our second-largest city. It is pleasing to see that so many of the members of the Christchurch educational community are involved in taking that project forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022434f233093eb4d799331320d93ff61b3\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Give us all the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3b1dce34db444a898cd374bb84398e3\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is looking for some facts, I will just give her some facts. The share offer programme has increased the incentive for these companies to improve their performance, and this is now flowing into higher dividends for the Crown. It is particularly noticeable in the case of Genesis Energy, the company about which we are debating today. Despite selling just under half of the shares in the company, the Crown expects to receive nearly twice as much in dividends from Genesis Energy this year than it did in the best year in the decade up to 2012. So in those 10 years, when the company was fully owned by the Crown\u2014100 percent\u2014in its best year we received half the dividends that we will receive from Genesis Energy this year. So the taxpayer sold half the company, and it is getting more than twice the return. That makes a lot of sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Opposition members are going to get up and say that is because power prices went up. Well, they should look at the last CPI index, which shows that the increase in power prices was all due to increases in line charges from the monopoly, community-owned companies. In fact, the variable power price, the energy price, dropped very slightly. So the increased dividend, which is twice as big a dividend as the best of the last 10 years under Crown ownership, is not due to higher power prices. It is due to a better-run company that no longer wastes taxpayers\u2019 money or tries to exploit what was a less than competitive position up until 3 years ago at the expense of the consumers of power. There are many other benefits from the floats\u2014that is just one of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EAs a result of Parliament passing this motion, select committees will have the opportunity to question Genesis Energy closely about why it is now paying the Crown twice the dividend when the Crown is a 50 percent shareholder\u2014twice the dividend it paid when the Government was a 100 percent shareholder. Actually, a similar but not quite the same pattern applies for Mighty River Power, which is also paying somewhere between 50 percent and 100 percent more dividend to the Government when it owns half the shares as when it was 100 percent owned. In the case of Meridian Energy it does not work out that way because Meridian Energy had a number of special dividends and the special dividend that it paid\u2014the very large special dividend that it paid\u2014was because it sold assets, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e24964d383c4a8d83d73062269effb3\u0022\u003EHon Craig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: Who to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266e93f7845fe47a5b99dfe46d9bc572f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it sold assets in Australia. It set up some energy generation in Australia and sold it very successfully. I have not actually done the calculations if you take that special dividend out, but I am sure that once you remove that special dividend we will see that there is also a better performance by Meridian Energy and taxpayers getting a better deal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe final point I would make is this. The only reason the Government has billions of dollars investment is because ordinary Kiwis pay their power bills and, at the end of a week of working in the cold, wet July weather, they hand over $300 of PAYE. That is how we get billions. But just because they come in small amounts is exactly the reason we should respect them. We should pay attention to every $300 because if Kiwis kept it, they would be able to do a lot with it. They would be able to upgrade their car, pay for the school trip, buy a new washing machine, and that is why I am so deeply opposed to the wasteful arrogant attitudes of the Opposition members who think that the billions somehow belong to the Government. They do not. They belong to people working in the rain and cold today and this motion is part of a process that reassures ordinary New Zealanders\u2014everyday New Zealanders paying their tax and their power bills\u2014that the National-led Government respects their contribution to New Zealand\u2019s common good. We will make sure that people on good pay with good jobs who run these companies are thoroughly scrutinised and most particularly scrutinised by a market that can signal very clearly by reducing the share price when that company is not performing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u00220d5e58f6413b4e4c9a65d86599349efc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d5e58f6413b4e4c9a65d86599349efc\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E The reason we are here today with this motion on Genesis Energy is that the Government forgot\u2014forgot\u2014to put in the legislation a little part that talks about financial review, scrutiny, transparency. That is just the normal sort of thing you would expect a Government to do. It forgot. It forgot to do that, so we are here wasting Parliament\u2019s time to make sure that that scrutiny is part of this legislation. It is not a procedural tidy-up, Mr English; it is a tidy-up of a complete cock-up, which shows exactly what this Government\u2019s priority really is, and that is to not to pay too much attention to transparency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis motion comes at an interesting time. Today is one of the coldest days in our winter, and people, as they are maybe watching this, are turning on their heaters to keep warm, burning up energy and electricity in order to stay warm. They know that their power bills, despite all of the saving and the conservation that they are doing in perhaps not even turning on the heater when they should, are going up. Our power prices went up by 4.2 percent in one quarter, according to the Consumers Price Index released two days ago\u20144.2 percent in just one quarter. That is not an annual rate; it is a quarterly rate. That was the highest increase of power prices since 2000, with the exception of one quarter in 2012\u2014also under this National Government. The National Government talks about all the work it is doing to bring power prices down, but the consumers at home who are sitting there in front of their heaters today worrying about their power prices have just had to endure a 4.2 percent increase\u2014the largest increase in 14 years. You have got to ask yourself whether Kiwis are really getting a fair deal. Are they getting a fair deal? I do not think so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ENinety-three percent of our power market is dominated by five big companies, and Genesis Energy is the biggest. The organisation that we are talking about today is the biggest. This is a story of industries that have now been partly sold off to private investors. One percent of New Zealanders now own those shares in half of those companies. They are doing very well. They are doing very well out of ordinary Kiwis who are paying their power bills, because it is the residential payer who is paying the most. This is an industry with oversight by the Electricity Authority, which believes that what is good for these companies must also be good for consumers. Well, it just does not work like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIn fact, the Electricity Authority not so long ago said that demand when coupled with a drop in rates must lead to lower power prices in a competitive market. But they never did become lower. Power prices have continued to go up even though we have a decrease in the amount of power that is being consumed. In a competitive market, power prices should have gone down like they have in most other OECD countries. Instead, we have had a 4.2 percent increase in just one quarter. Genesis Energy has been at the forefront of maximising its profits. It had a 35 percent increase in profits. It went from a $243 million profit in 2010 to a $335 million profit in 2013\u2014a 35 percent increase in profit. We have got power prices going up and we have profits of energy companies, including Genesis Energy, going up at the same time. You get the picture. No wonder they are returning more revenue to the Government, because they are squeezing more money out of ordinary New Zealanders, who are struggling to pay their power bills. That is what is happening\u2014that is what is happening under this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ELet us look at what is happening with prepay, because I believe that prepay is a bit of an indicator of the way that companies behave towards consumers. Those people who are on prepay schemes pay in advance of their power bills. So, unlike most people in New Zealand who get their power bills and pay them, these people effectively put money in the meter to keep it going. Well, I can tell you that if you are on a prepay scheme in Gisborne with Genesis Energy\u2014the only scheme that you can go on to with prepay\u2014you will be paying 32 percent more than somebody who is on a normal rate. And if you are here in Wellington\u2014I am sure that Mr English is not on this scheme but if he were, he would be paying 31.5 percent more under a prepay scheme than for a normal bill. This is money in advance. People are putting money down in advance. There is no risk to the companies. They prey on mainly poorer, less well-off people who are paying more than a third of their bills in advance. This company is simply preying on those people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ELet us contrast those people with the chief executive officer of Genesis Energy and the salary he is getting. Well, the chief executive officer of Genesis Energy just got a 12 percent increase in his salary. That is great. I would like to see more people in New Zealand get 12 percent increases, but they do not and they will not. Forty percent of New Zealanders did not get a 1 percent increase in their salaries over the last year. His salary went from $1.2 million a year to $1.35 million a year. That must really help with those electricity bills in his case. To say that somehow this is a good thing from Bill English does not speak to the facts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThere was a 2 percent decrease in demand in electricity, and we had a 4.2 percent increase in electricity prices. In normal, competitive markets, as is happening right around the world, prices have stabilised or are going down. In New Zealand that is exactly the opposite of what is happening, and that shows we have got a broken market. We have got a broken market in New Zealand, and people in New Zealand are not getting what they deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EAs the Labour Party, we are not afraid to stand up and say that this market is not working and we will change this market. We are not afraid to take on the vested interests that are taking profits out of the pockets of ordinary New Zealanders and that are supported, backed up, encouraged, and cajoled by that Government. No, we will stand up for the New Zealanders who are paying too much for their electricity, for the people who cannot afford to put on their heaters when they should put on their heaters, and for the people who are taking their kids to the doctor with rheumatic fever and respiratory problems. We know that if you invest in insulation, you will be able to save money on health costs. If you put an efficient heating source in a house, you will also be able to save on health costs. Those people do not have a choice. Ten percent of New Zealanders are paying 10 percent of their household income on energy, and the top handful of New Zealanders is paying, like, 1 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWe will look at reforming this energy market. We will bring in NZ Power, which will make sure that more money goes into the pockets of New Zealanders\u2014hundreds of millions of dollars. People can rely on us to make sure that power prices are stabilised and at the same time ensure that there are benefits derived for the economy as well. This is a disgrace. We are here because of a mistake the Government made, two days after a quarter in which power prices went up 4.2 percent. We will do something about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00223afe628cb3d647fcb9a1266ad590e30d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223afe628cb3d647fcb9a1266ad590e30d\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the Green Party to address this motion regarding Genesis Energy. This motion, of course, comes out of the Government\u2019s failed privatisation programme. I think it is important for us to remember how the privatisation programme worked. The first step was tax cuts for the very wealthy, which have cost probably in the order of $5 billion, and probably more, so far\u2014just the cost of tax cuts for the top 10 percent. The Government gave very large amounts of money to the top 10 percent and then said: \u201COh, there\u2019s a hole in our Budget. We don\u2019t have enough money. We\u2019re going to have to sell assets to cover the hole in our Budget caused by the tax cuts.\u201D So then it said it was going to have to sell some of these assets, and it sold about $5 billion worth of assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EOf course, who could afford to buy the assets? Well, it was not ordinary mums and dads. They could not afford to buy shares in Meridian Energy, Genesis Energy, and all the rest. They do not have spare cash. Of course, the people who could afford to buy the assets were the very same people to whom Bill English and the others gave tax cuts. There was $5 billion transferred from the Crown account to the wealthiest 10 percent in the country, and then $5 billion was paid back to the Crown account to purchase the shares in these assets. At the end of it, for ordinary people, what they find is that their collective assets have been reduced by about half\u2014half of these assets were sold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EOf course, the very wealthy, who got Bill English\u2019s very large and generous tax cuts that did not go to anyone else, found themselves in possession of half of the nation\u2019s electricity generating assets. It was straight theft. National orchestrated this straight theft in front of everybody\u2019s eyes of half of the electricity generating assets in the country, moved them from the ownership of all New Zealanders, and gave them to the very wealthiest people\u2014and, of course, to the wealthiest corporations. Many of the shares in these assets simply went to large corporations or they went offshore. So it was simply a straight theft\u2014stealing assets in front of everybody. Everybody could see that National was transferring the assets. Hence, it was not at all surprising that the overwhelming majority of New Zealanders opposed the theft of their assets by National. We saw that in the referendum and in every opinion poll. None the less, National proceeded to steal the assets from the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThen it had the temerity, during this election campaign, to offer back some of the money that it raised in the slush fund as election bribes. This is with John Key as the slush fund manager. He is the manager of the slush fund created by the asset sales programme. National sold the people\u2019s assets against the people\u2019s will. Overwhelmingly, people were opposed to the sale of these assets. Then, after selling the assets, it offered back the money that it gained as an election bribe. National members would say to the people in rural New Zealand: \u201CWe\u2019ll pick a number of our favourite roading projects across the country, and if you vote for us, we\u2019ll build those roading projects with the money that we got from stealing your assets.\u201D It is like when someone breaks into your house and, against your will, steals some of your stuff and then sells it, and then says: \u201CHere, have some money back. You should like me because here\u2019s some money from me.\u201D Actually, it was New Zealanders\u2019 money. It was New Zealanders\u2019 assets that National flogged off, and now it is using the cash that it got from selling the assets as an election bribe. It is disgraceful behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EBill English talked about how we should value all the dollars that ordinary people pay in the form of taxes. I agree with Bill English. My question for him then is: why did he waste $748 million on the process of the asset sales? I think it is important for people to realise how empty is the rhetoric of this Government about being fiscally conservative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThis is how the Government spent the money. Treasury spent $85 million on the asset sales process itself. It spent $12.6 million just on those ads on TV. You know, the ads you saw on TV that were shown to ordinary New Zealanders and that said: \u201CBuy shares in these companies that you used to own. Buy shares in these companies.\u201D Those ads cost $12.6 million. On top of that, Treasury outsourced to contractors $65 million worth of work\u2014that is, taxpayers had to pay $65 million to these contractors. They were for things like people who were doing public relations work in order to try to massage public opinion. They were people like stockbrokers, who were taking a cut out of the proceeds of the asset sale process. Then Treasury spent $8 million internally on the asset sale process. So Bill English, who tells us that it is so important that we look after taxpayers\u2019 money, spent $85 million just in Treasury on the asset sale process. The companies themselves spent $36 million on preparing themselves for privatisation. So the companies, on top of that, spent another $36 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThen we had the incentives. The incentives were the bonus shares, whereby National said to its mates: \u201CIf you buy a share in this company and you hold on to it for a certain period of time, then we will give you extra shares for free.\u201D Of course, they are not for free; they are paid for by taxpayers. The bonus shares for Mighty River Power cost taxpayers about $25 million. The Meridian Energy incentive costs taxpayers about $33 million. The Genesis Energy bonus costs taxpayers about $22 million. This is all the money that Mr English told us he is so careful spending and that he does not like to spend it on things that are not important. This is all money that Mr English and National have given away as part of this privatisation process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThen we have the losses on the sale. If you compare the book value of these companies with what National actually brought in when it privatised the assets, there is a difference there of about $361 million. It sold the assets for $361 million less than National itself valued them at. So, effectively, the assets lost $361 million of taxpayer value. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EOn top of that, the Government gave Rio Tinto $30 million, as part of the sweetener. Remember, Rio Tinto had the Government over a barrel, because if it did not renew the contract from Meridian Energy or it threatened the contract with Meridian Energy, then it would decrease the value of Meridian Energy, but particularly all the other assets including Genesis Energy. So Rio Tinto, a hugely profitable company, was able to force the Government to hand over $30 million as part of the process for the asset sales. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ESo when you add that all up, including $9 million on the referendum, whereby the people of New Zealand spoke very clearly that they did not want the asset sales process, then Bill English, who tells us he cares so much about taxpayers\u2019 money, wasted $748 million on a process that an overwhelming majority of New Zealanders opposed. This is a Government that prides itself on fiscal rectitude, and it is spewing money everywhere in order to force through this incredibly unpopular privatisation process, to transfer ownership of these companies from all of us\u2014from all New Zealanders\u2014to a tiny few. That, I think, demonstrates the true priorities of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIt is to create for itself the slush fund. John Key, the slush fund manager, is managing a slush fund that is $5 million, and he hands it out here and there, where he thinks it is important to get votes in the election campaign, as he manages the slush fund. A big part of the slush fund is guaranteed to go to increased water pollution in the form of the $400 million irrigation fund, because the National Party is determined to increase toxic pollution in our rivers and lakes across the country, and it is giving $400 million free to the irrigation companies. That is money that ordinary New Zealanders used to have. This is part of the Government\u2019s pollution economy. Instead of having an economic and fiscal strategy that is sustainable, it has a different kind of strategy, and asset sales are a key part of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EBorrowing, of course, is a key part of it. This Government borrowed $50 billion\u2014the Government that supposedly knows about money. Well, what it really knows about is borrowing lots of money. It is very good at borrowing money. It is excellent at borrowing money. It is very good at asset sales. It forced through the asset sales programme. But, of course, borrowing and asset sales do not generate any new wealth. When you look at the parts of the economy that the Government is very interested in, it is simple commodities: milk powder, raw logs; the kinds of things that do not make the country rich. That is the focus for the Government\u2019s economic strategy\u2014its pollution economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWhen you look at what it is spending on research and development, it is tiny, at 1.3 percent of GDP on research and development. That is a tiny fraction. The projections going forward show a 20 percent cut in research and development under this Government\u2019s own projections in the 10 years forward. Instead of having a smart Green economy that invests in innovation and research and development, this is a Government that has a pollution economy that pays its bills by selling assets and borrowing money. That is the truth around this Government\u2019s economic strategy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWe have put up a number of alternatives to this Government\u2019s failed pollution economy, but, of course, it is only a change of Government that will bring those changes into life. For example, the NZ Power proposal put up by the Greens and Labour for a single buyer to create competition in generation and retail. Currently, vertical integration of the generator and retail companies means that there is no real competition in the electricity sector. If you want real competition in generation and retail, that is what NZ Power will achieve, because it puts a horizontal dividing line across the electricity market. There will be real competition, and hence, innovation, in the electricity market, under NZ Power, whereas in the current system there is none. Then there is our Solar Homes project, to make sure that people can access solar photovoltaic panels on their roof, to give them some control over their power. A smart Green economy that invests in innovation and research and development is a much better option than the pollution economy and asset sale economy that the National Party is proposing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u0022530708bf9c114e5ba92c9968a65f560e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022530708bf9c114e5ba92c9968a65f560e\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on behalf of New Zealand First in this Genesis Energy debate. Has any other country had to endure the sort of madness that National has imposed on our electricity system? No. This National Government has taken ideological fixation and fantasy to new heights. Nothing has been learnt from the past. Nothing has been remembered from the mistakes of the 1980s and the 1990s. Not content with Max Bradford\u2019s theory-driven mess, the National Government has spent the last 3 years selling State power assets to enrich their pals and their mates. Now we have ended up with a Byzantine structure that is baffling and wholly without logic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe State asset sales programme is entirely consistent with National\u2019s agenda. That agenda is to use every opportunity to transfer wealth from the many\u2014the general public of New Zealand\u2014to the few; namely, National\u2019s friends, mates, and cronies of the party. Feathering the nests of the few\u2014that is the National way. It is an outrageous theft of the common wealth into the hands of the speculator and assorted wheeler-dealers. In the case of one of the State-owned enterprise power generation companies, nearly 10 percent of the shares went to a New York bank. That is hardly \u201Cmoms and pops\u201D New Zealanders, when nearly 10 percent of shares went to a New York bank. I wonder how close that New York bank was to Mr Key, who himself was a former New York banker. So it is very, very suspicious indeed that suddenly a New York bank pops up out of nowhere to buy into our power companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThere was overwhelming public opposition to the selling-up of 49 percent of Meridian Energy, Mighty River Power, and Genesis Power. The public well understood that these assets, built up by generations of Kiwis, were not for the Government to sell. The public were not fooled by all the ideological waffle that National and an army of paid lobbyists, who were paid over $100 million, and media hacks churned out. These were assets owned by all New Zealanders, by not just the select few\u2014not just the 2.5 percent who ended up buying the shares\u2014but all New Zealanders. These were assets built up by two or three generations. My parents, my grandparents, my great-grandparents, and your great-grandparents built up those assets across the length and breadth of New Zealand\u2014the likes of the dams on the Waikato River, the likes of the hydro schemes in the South Island, the likes of the thermal plants that we have in the central North Island. These were built up over many generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThere are some of us who can remember when New Zealand had a generating and electricity system that was the envy of the world. There was a time when the electricity system was a public utility that we were proud of. It was run for the benefit of all. A little bit like water, a little bit like air, power and gas are a basic staple requirement that we all require and that we all must have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe took advantage of hydro power to have some of the lowest power prices in the world. National, in its inimitable genius, threw all that away. In its incompetence and greed, it cast aside a system that the rest of the world could only envy. No, New Zealand\u2019s electricity system had to be stuffed up, well and truly, just to favour the few. Among those few\u2014those happy few\u2014are the chief executive officers of those energy companies. At the top, there are executives receiving huge salaries of $1 million - plus. At the other end of the scale, Kiwis are struggling to pay soaring power and electricity prices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EOn Sunday the Sunday Star-Times did a public service by revealing what the chief executives of five of our biggest energy companies earn. The chief executive officers\u2019 mega pay cheques are as follows: Contact Energy, $1.58 million to the chief executive officer; Genesis, $1.35 million\u2014and that was an increase of 12 percent in salary in the last 12 months\u2014Mighty River Power, $1.3 million; Transpower, $1.22 million; and Meridian, $1 million. These are all million-dollar salaries to pay for these executives to run our power companies, which have been there for decades and decades in most cases, and which have been the staple backbone of this economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EAs the asset sales programme has shown, National\u2019s shameless manipulation has no bounds. The public are entitled to ask who actually benefited from the asset sales programme, which brought in some $4.5 billion, when the Government was promising $6 billion to $7 billion. Clearly, it is not electricity consumers or taxpayers. Pity the poor electricity consumers or taxpayers. They have been coshed by the asset sales programme. They have been well and truly mugged. Kiwis will be paying the prices of National\u2019s asset sales folly for generations. What a legacy of failure National will leave when it is given its marching orders in September. When we look back on it and ask who sold off those assets that were built up by the previous generation, it was a small group of people\u2014a small, tight five of Cabinet Ministers who controlled everything in those days, around the years 2008 to 2014. They controlled it and they sold off the silverware. They sold off the silverware, and it was gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is the only political party that has said, unequivocally, that if we are in a position of influence in the next Government, we will buy back the shares of those power-generating companies at a price that is no more than that initially paid for them. I repeat: under New Zealand First, we will buy back the shares at a price that is no more than that initially paid for them. We will then merge those State-owned power-generating companies into one single energy entity. That one single energy entity will then ensure there is security of supply, there is forward planning, and it is strategically developed so that all modes of power and gas generation are explored, and all sustainable renewable energy sources are also explored across the length and breadth of this country. That wholesale generating company will then supply to the retail market at consistent, reliable, affordable prices for the people of New Zealand. That is common sense. That is what New Zealanders expect. That is what under New Zealand First we will provide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe will also under New Zealand First provide a power and gas discount during the winter months\u2014from May to September\u2014for those with a SuperGold card. It is very important that our seniors, our elderly\u2014those who require us to ensure that they are comfortable in their homes over some of the bitter winters that we are experiencing\u2014can afford to turn the heater on or turn the gas heater on. It is critical that people should not be suffering in their senior years because they cannot afford to stay warm. New Zealand First will ensure that a discount is put in place from the State-owned enterprise that we will be forming, to ensure that those people can again have dignity in their old age in their homes. Again, that is a policy that is common sense. It is common sense that we must explore in the future to ensure that the people of this country are taken care of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ESo, in closing, can I just say that New Zealand First does not support this motion. This is, again, a transfer, and it endorses the whole situation that National is pushing time and time again. It is just backing up a situation where the wealthy in this country continue to get wealthier and the regular everyday New Zealanders\u2014the middle-income New Zealanders, the lower-income New Zealanders, the hard-working families in this country\u2014suffer. We will not allow them to suffer. New Zealand First will ensure that we do something about it. It is common sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002202761577bf234aa2ab9a3337c64fd40a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202761577bf234aa2ab9a3337c64fd40a\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I do not disagree with many of the sentiments from the New Zealand First colleagues, apart from one. We will be supporting this motion. I do not agree that supporting a motion somehow validates or supports the selling-off of State-owned assets. We are supporting this motion simply because it will allow, through the select committee process, a modicum of scrutiny of the activities of this asset. We know that the Official Information Act and even parliamentary questions now, because of this Government\u2019s wish to sell that asset off with the others, as it did, limit the scrutiny by members of Parliament, the general public, journalists, and others. Under the guise of so-called increased scrutiny the Minister of Finance says that somehow the magic hand of the market will provide that scrutiny through stockbrokers, analysts, and others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI would wager that that scrutiny will be nowhere near the level of scrutiny that occurs in this place, where Ministers\u2019 feet are put to the fire before the select committees and this Parliament, where full disclosure can occur through parliamentary questions and Official Information Act requests. They are now limited. There is no way that a broker or an analyst can provide\u2014or would be interested in, actually\u2014many of the key pieces of information that members of Parliament and members of the public gain through the various mechanisms like the Official Information Act, parliamentary questions, and full select committee scrutiny, which will be lost because of the sell-off. So I make it very clear that in supporting this motion the Labour Party does in no way endorse the fire sale\u2014the bargain basement sale\u2014that occurred as this Government sold off asset after asset. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ELet us look at the history. It was the Prime Minister who originally said\u2014and we have got the quotes\u2014that the total asset sale proceeds would number in the order of $10 billion. People forget this\u2014$10 billion. Then that was revised down. Somebody tapped the Prime Minister on the shoulder, presumably Tony Ryall or Bill English, and said: \u201CTaihoa. That is a bit over the top. That is a bit of propaganda. We need to ratchet back expectations.\u201D Then it went to $7 billion, then it went to $6 billion, then the range was revised again to $5 billion to $7 billion. Then it was revised down again to $6 billion. Where did we get to when the Government sold the final asset, which is Genesis Energy, after the raft of others like Mighty River Power, Meridian Energy, Air New Zealand? Well, it got to $4.7 billion\u2014bargain-basement prices. My word, the Warehouse as an entity would be proud of Bill English. Maybe he should go into sort of a mail-order business or a discount business or selling Tupperware or something, I do not know, because, my word, can this guy get a huge discount on the assets he sells. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI have got to say, the gall of Mr English to say that we are sort of tidying things up. This is not a tidy-up; this is an attempted clean-up of one of the biggest stuff-ups in the history of this Parliament. We have already heard the Green colleague talk about the wasted hundreds of millions of dollars in costs to get these assets away. Bill English talks about the fact that he is prudent with the purse. He talked in sort of voice-breaking tones about every $300 being important to the average Kiwi, and he is right about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo my question is how does he explain the Rio Tinto deal, when he gave Rio Tinto $30 million? And here are the facts on that. Rio Tinto did not even ask for the $30 million that he gave it. It did not ask for it in the deal. Nowhere does it appear in the deal. The halving of the notice period does. The cheaper electricity price does. But nowhere in the deal, I am advised, did Rio Tinto put its hand out and say it would like $30 million. It was a free gift. Bill English talks about being prudent about every $300 that the Government spends on behalf of taxpayers. So he doled out $30 million to Rio Tinto that it did not ask for, and then he came into Parliament and went around New Zealand and said that this was a prudent spend of money because it guaranteed the Southland jobs. We know that was a lie. It was an absolute lie because on Kathryn Ryan\u2019s show he was asked by Kathryn Ryan whether he asked for a jobs guarantee and he said no, he did not, and he did not get one. So that was a lie\u2014absolute, unequivocal, from his own lips. So you tell me how that is a prudent use of taxpayers\u2019 money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAnd then the Government made the argument that it was selling these assets because it had got this Future Investment Fund and it would be buying new assets, and is that not a good thing? It was in a sort of blind attempt to hoodwink the taxpayer. But the taxpayer worked out, as evidenced by the referendum, that when you sell a revenue-generating asset and you buy non - revenue-generating assets\u2014and the last time I checked, public hospitals and schools and the like were not revenue-generating entities; they were taxpayer-funded entities designed to make people healthy and to educate kids\u2014there is a wee problem. At the end of the day the slush fund runs out and there is no more money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThese turkeys over here did it in the 1990s. They learnt absolutely nothing from it. I say to Mr English that if this policy is so remarkably successful, what happened when you and your mate Jim Bolger and the like flogged off all the assets in the 1990s? Where is the success? It is Groundhog Day. We are back here again with the same National cronies, the same guys who were there under Jim Bolger, selling things off again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThese guys are good, I have got to say. When it comes to the old pyramid scheme, these boys are phenomenally professional. Look at the promises that were made in respect of the Future Investment Fund. If you take the promises at face value, National has promised on the latest count $80 billion worth of spending from proceeds of $4.7 billion. We had promises from John Key that they would fund Kiwibank in 2011. In 2012 Tony Ryall said that asset sales were necessary to pay down debt. Then in 2012 John Key said no, the asset sales were for new hospitals and schools. Steven Joyce in the same year said no, we have got to use some of this money to fund KiwiRail. Nathan Guy in 2013 said no, some of this money will be to subsidise irrigation schemes\u2014multimillion-dollar schemes\u2014for farmers. Then Gerry Brownlee, the big fellow himself, came out and said no, the asset sales money would be used to rebuild Christchurch. And then John Key in June 2013 said the asset sales would be used in part to fund the Auckland rail link. And then you look at some of the other little missives that they put in. Remember, this asset sales money was all about big investments\u2014schools, hospitals, all this sort of thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBut then you get into the sort of additional asset sales proceeds that they have paid for, not to mention the $100 million - odd that they appropriated, of course, to try to stabilise Solid Energy. Tony Ryall and Bill English stood by and watched the then directors and then management run it into the ground to the tune of 800 to 1,000 jobs and counting. I am sure those poor people are watching every $300 they make, if they do, through the unemployment benefit. I am sure they are taking due care with every $300 they are lucky enough to scrape up given they have lost their jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EYou have a look at some of the other stuff, such as $40 million for the bonuses for Mighty River Power. This is what the Government has spent taxpayers\u2019 money on from these proceeds\u2014replacement of the refugee resettlement facilities, immigration management systems, and closed captioning on Parliament TV. I cannot remember that in the last National Party manifesto in terms of a major sort of investment from the Future Investment Fund. There is the replacement of the ground station for search and rescue satellite systems; replacement of something called the Matriarch system in the Debt Management Office; the whole-of-Government radio network; \u201Canalysis of outcomes, Cabinet investment function\u201D\u2014whatever that means\u2014and a computer system for Cabinet, presumably so Bill English can actually tot up all the dough he has wasted from the sale of these assets; and a few other obligations to the IMF. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EYou tell me, Mr Deputy Speaker and colleagues, where that was mentioned in the list of assets that the Future Investment Fund would use in respect of these sales. The truth is that the people of New Zealand own these assets. For generations they have paid for them through blood, sweat, and tears, through generations of people. The truth is that Bill English was generous enough to say \u201CI\u2019m going to allow you to spend your own money\u201D\u2014the big end of town, of course\u2014\u201Cto buy what you already own back again.\u201D What has happened is a wealth transfer and an asset transfer from every Kiwi and every member of our community, who owned these assets, down to the privileged few, who pay for the so-called free shares, which have never been free. They are paid for by the people who could not afford to buy or did not wish to buy shares in these particular assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAll the loyalty bonuses, remember, will expire a few months after the next general election. A few months after, the loyalty bonuses expire. I make this prediction: those shares, as soon as the bonuses are picked up when the expiry happens, will wing their way to New York, London, and Tokyo, just like Contact Energy\u2019s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9fbb8b4c7704f139abc5f22e63af3fd\u0022\u003EAccounting Infrastructure Reform Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022173ef8be6e2747bea87951d4db7e7efc\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000310\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 3 July.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u002264cfae6a3a91406880371c6bfc0f96cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264cfae6a3a91406880371c6bfc0f96cc\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E To recap from my interrupted speech a couple of weeks ago discussing this issue, the Accounting Infrastructure Reform Bill appeared before the Commerce Committee and on the face of it seemed to be a relatively straightforward bill. One issue, though, took up most of the committee\u2019s time, and that issue concerned a request for an exemption on the basis of religious grounds from the requirement to belong to the statutory authority, the accounting body. A pair of submitters, Mr Brian Prestidge and Mr Michael Powell, came before the committee and brought before us a request about the changes in the bill that required auditors and qualified statutory accountants to belong to professional bodies. They claimed that that was a limitation on the right of freedom of association in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990. This pair of submitters were members of a religious organisation. That happened to be the Exclusive Brethren.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWhat they were actually bringing before the committee was a fairly significant point of principle, and I believe there will be quite a bit of discussion in the House around that, because it did seriously exercise the committee in terms of how it would address that. Certainly from my own perspective the prospect of a precedent being created where members of a profession could undertake their profession and not have to belong to the statutory body that was managing that profession and holding everyone to account was a concern, because it raised the prospect of how far you go and where you draw the line on these matters. The reason for this regulation of auditors is ultimately to protect consumers, and it was important that the committee consider that because consumers, those who rely on the conclusions of an audit, are usually not in a position to assess its quality. We believe that the professional self-regulatory model under which this legislation is based is appropriate for this legislation, but these submitters did not want to have to belong to the regulatory body that would actually be performing the regulation. That was the issue that taxed us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThere were several reports provided to the committee on this, and no doubt we are going to hear about how that process was undertaken. I look forward to discussing this further in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u0022962f438730474f99bb241581ed52d54b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022962f438730474f99bb241581ed52d54b\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to take a short call on the Accounting Infrastructure Reform Bill. National is focused on boosting growth and creating jobs. Only a strong economy can provide financial security for families and real opportunities for young people. Since National came into office, it has been working hard to simplify and improve the integrity of our financial system. This bill, which will enable the accounting and audit industry to be more efficient and effective, is part of the Government\u2019s Business Growth Agenda and helps achieve one of National\u2019s key objectives, which is to build a more competitive and productive economy. With these words I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00220d64576e0d3b40bdbc64b46a17f51522\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d64576e0d3b40bdbc64b46a17f51522\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Party, as my colleague Clare Curran said, will be supporting the Accounting Infrastructure Reform Bill. The aims of this bill are pretty straightforward. It builds on other pieces of legislation where other professions in New Zealand and Australia have grown closer together and amalgamated, where we have similar rules of engagement in terms of commerce and banking and other regulations and legislation. It will enable the New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants to amalgamate with its Australian counterparts, creating a new trans-Tasman institute, subject to the approval of members. It allows competent auditors with the appropriate qualifications to offer audit services to New Zealand firms by altering restrictions on non-user audit work. It allows audit firms to incorporate as a company if they decide that is the most efficient way to conduct business for themselves. And, of course, the bill replaces references to a \u201Cchartered accountant\u201D in various Acts with references to \u201Cqualified statutory accountants\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI just briefly want to pick up on the issues that Clare Curran raised in respect of a submission we received from the Exclusive Brethren. With due respect to them, it did vex the Commerce Committee somewhat. I know that the National Party has, of course, a long and close relationship with that particular entity. It is a very long and close relationship dating back, I think, to 2005. The submission did raise a number of issues for us in that on the one hand groups are indeed entitled to express their moral and religious views, their beliefs, as it should be, and no one argues with that. What the committee found itself attempting to do was trying to wade through on the one hand acknowledging and respecting those particular beliefs and on the other hand trying to ensure that a person could not, if you like, rock up to the authority and simply say they believe in X\u2014I am not trivialising this; I am just using this as an example\u2014and therefore they should be exempt from a number of the governance arrangements and strictures put in place by this amalgamation. It will be interesting in later stages to hear the Minister of Commerce\u2019s view on that. Officials did recommend the course of action that was contained within the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESome of us still feel some unease. Again, I mean no disrespect to religious organisations, but whenever, as members will know, you pass legislation, you are not actually passing legislation for the 99.9 percent of the population that would not break the particular rule or law or moral code; you are passing it for those who would abrogate their responsibilities and offend. That is what we find ourselves doing in this place every day: passing legislation, in some cases for the lowest common denominator, acknowledging that that may or may not restrict the rights of those law-abiding citizens who would always, regardless of legislation or law, adhere to the basics of the moral and ethical code we observe in this country. So we listened to those submissions rather carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI must say personally I was not convinced by some of the submissions by the Brethren and the notions that they put forward. I do have reservations in respect of the safeguards around those notions as enshrined in this legislation. I say, briefly, that I would be very interested in the Minister\u2019s view as we move this legislation forward in terms of assuring this House that in respect of people who apply for exemptions essentially based on personal belief, there are safeguards in place to ensure that they are not deliberately attempting to walk around the legislation. We did put it to officials that we would not want them to take on some sort of quasi-religious role in terms of deciding\u2014I see a chuckle from the Deputy Speaker in the Chair; I think he understands what I am saying\u2014how to interpret scripture as to what was a legitimate religious or moral belief and what was not. That is not the role of officials. I suspect for many of us that would be hard to do. We would leave that to the deity and others in other places, perhaps; maybe some in Rome, if I go to my religious background. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo it is an important point, because there will be those who perhaps will try to use that corridor, if you like, to walk around this legislation. So, as I say, I will be interested as to whether the Minister can give us some assurance around that. I know there are, in labour relations legislation and other legislation, some longstanding precedents. But, as I say, I was not particularly convinced. I am not making a judgment on the beliefs of the Exclusive Brethren\u2014I am sure that Mr Foss and others could give us a better view on that given the close association\u2014but I was not impressed with some of their arguments in terms of the legitimacy, if you will, or the safeguards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe support this legislation. I think, putting that matter aside, I can say I believe it will benefit New Zealand. It will benefit our professional accounting institutes on both sides of the Tasman. It will make them more efficient. I think it will make them more robust. It will also provide easier access to both markets. One would hope then that that will enhance business opportunities not just for that profession but for other associated commercial entities around that. With those words, I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6bae4d4250a41369190bc6394e26fd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6bae4d4250a41369190bc6394e26fd8\u0022\u003EDr JIAN YANG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak briefly to the Accounting Infrastructure Reform Bill. This bill achieves its main purpose of enabling the accounting and audit industry to be more efficient and effective with some key amendments to existing Acts. For example, it amends the rules on who may perform statutory audits, to enable more people who are competent to perform audits to do so. Such kinds of reforms will realign the structure of the audit and accounting industry so that participants are able to quickly adapt in an evolving environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EThis bill is part of the Government\u2019s Business Growth Agenda to improve regulation and promote healthy financial reporting frameworks. National has improved financial reporting requirements so that 90 percent of New Zealand businesses no longer need to produce full financial accounts. National has also strengthened the capital markets and created more opportunities through crowd funding. It has also tightened the regime for those providing financial advice. I commend this bill to the House. Thanks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00225c17234dd9804e568ef956ea58a6f194\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c17234dd9804e568ef956ea58a6f194\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised this is not a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022e25c79484b274b6ab2a2e043091e288d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e25c79484b274b6ab2a2e043091e288d\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, but it will be a shortish call. Thank you very much for the opportunity to talk to the second reading of the Accounting Infrastructure Reform Bill. As a number of my colleagues have already stated in their contributions to this debate, this was one of the more interesting bills that we have seen traverse this Parliament for the reason of the exemption for a particular group, which both Clare Curran and Clayton Cosgrove have mentioned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EBefore I get to that issue, I do want to say that obviously this side of the House supports this bill. We understand that with the merging of the accounting body on this side of the Tasman with the one in Australia there will be some effectiveness and efficiencies gained and then, hopefully, some opportunities for businesses in our country, on this side of the Tasman, which we all want. If you believe the National Government, this side of the House is not business friendly, but that is absolutely not the case. Policies that we have already released, such as our research and development tax credits, and accelerated depreciation of, I think, the forestry and manufacturing sectors, and some exciting policy that we are yet to see around apprenticeships will, I think, be greatly attractive to small to medium sized enterprise as we head into the decision-making period of the electoral cycle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f1af4f8600c4c479426b761d56d2c5b\u0022\u003EMeka Whaitiri\u003C/span\u003E: $200 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd668fb8d0424d6685c0cb162601bea5\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: That is right; $200 million\u2014quite a big push for regional New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThis brings me to a local story of a graduation I attended in Porirua on Friday, where there were graduates from a money management and small business management course who are keen to see some real, practical policies from the political parties that are advancing their causes at the election this year. I think that a number of the policies from our side of the House that I have already spoken of will certainly help them advance their cause to have profitable, efficient, and effective businesses, which is what this bill does for accountancy systems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThis is an interesting bill, as I said before, because of this exemption we have within it, essentially for a particular religious group. It came and submitted to the select committee. Before I talk to that, can I thank the officials who worked on this bill, because it was one particular clause and one particular submission that took up quite a lot of time and debate within the very hard-working Commerce Committee. Essentially, there is an amendment within the bill in clause 31, which inserts new section 36M, which asks that a chartered accountancy body that would grant membership to its organisation exempt a person in a religious body from being a member because of their religious beliefs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIt was a submission from\u2014and I do not think they will mind me mentioning their names\u2014Brian Prestidge and Michael Powell, who are two people acting as auditors and accountants already and who are members of the Exclusive Brethren. I know there has been some controversy about that particular religion. That is not why I am bringing it up; I am bringing it up because it was a very interesting debate we had within the select committee as to whether or not that particular group making a submission, or any group that holds particular religious beliefs, should be exempted from membership of a body that we are asking all other people of a certain profession to be part of so they can be held to a code of ethics or particular standards, or any disciplinary action that that body may put on any of its members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere was some concern from this side of the House as to who was going to be the arbiter of what we would consider to be the appropriate religious beliefs or the particular religious groups. Again, as Clayton Cosgrove said, we did not think that should be up to the officials. I think that during the Committee debate it will be an interesting part of the debate\u2014if we do get to that stage of the debate before this House rises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIn terms of granting that exemption to a particular religious group, the accountancy organisation has to have an agreement with that religious group. It is apparent that the religious group has to abide by all the rules and regulations of the accountancy group. I believe personally that there was a case to maybe grant the exemption. I think we came to a relatively good position within the select committee that for particular religious reasons there should be an exemption, because essentially the religious groups are practising accountancy now. They do not, I believe, hold memberships in a body now, but this legislation compels them to do so. They agreed they would be accountable to such a body if there was to be disciplinary action for breaches of the code of ethics or particular things they had to adhere to in order to make sure that their standards were as good as others who had to become members. I know they are a relatively controversial group, but I thought they made a relatively sound submission to the select committee. They did believe that under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act they had the freedom to non-association. I think that this debate is not necessarily over, as this bill is still traversing the House. I would like to again thank the officials because this was not an easy part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIt certainly was not the main thrust of the bill. The main thrust of the bill was about those entities on this side of the Tasman and the other side of the Tasman coming together and ensuring that there could be effective and efficient business between our side of the Tasman and theirs, but exemption was one issue that I think we need to thank the officials for their work on. It was a tricky one that I think, as Clayton Cosgrove said, has only one precedent, in another piece of labour legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6536b8e577c4a958b5dcad2de82b4e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6536b8e577c4a958b5dcad2de82b4e3\u0022\u003EMARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a call on the Accounting Infrastructure Reform Bill. It is a very good bill and it is part of the wider Business Growth Agenda of this Government. Because I have got only a short time, I would like to just focus on what I think are four pretty important points, and they are that the reforms will realign the structure of the audit and accounting industry so that participants are able to quickly adapt to an evolving environment; this bill will enable the accounting and audit industry to be even more agile in an increasingly competitive environment; the bill is part of the Government\u2019s Business Growth Agenda to improve regulation and promote healthy financial reporting frameworks; and the accounting and audit industry will be better supported to meet a broader range of business and community needs. So, in effect, it is going to provide for less red tape and compliance cost, and it is going to make businesses more efficient, which is fully in line with our Business Growth Agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022185e03c2506c4edfb634fab6e752dac6\u0022\u003ELand Transport Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a135e0ce4cbb4e7295ee2372cc72e768\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022395d6453afe843aba1bb5e1c7e2f8587\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u002218e2ed19d29e46fd98da6c56d4fc5645\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218e2ed19d29e46fd98da6c56d4fc5645\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E It is superb to see the Land Transport Amendment Bill back in the Chamber. It does not seem like an awfully long time since we were debating the first reading, so I want to congratulate the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee on an expedient approach to this piece of legislation. I see the chair of select committee, David Bennett, is in the Chamber this afternoon. I want to congratulate Mr Bennett and his team on the select committee on making sure that the passage of this legislation was not held up at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI was not a member of the select committee. I am speaking, I guess, because I actually had a bill that did something very similar to this legislation drawn from the ballot. It is nice to know that it is possible to have some influence over legislation from Opposition. There are not many opportunities in the New Zealand Parliament for Opposition members to get legislation through the House. It has happened to me twice now where I have had a bill drawn from the ballot and automatically\u2014instantly\u2014the Government suddenly took an interest in that issue and introduced legislation of its own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI have to say, given how quickly this legislation has moved through its first reading, through the select committee, through its second reading, and now into the Committee stage, that it boggles my mind as to why it took so long to introduce the legislation in the first place, because Labour actually had a member\u2019s bill in the ballot for close to 2 years before the Government finally acted. It acted only when that bill came out of the ballot. That is despite the fact that the evidence, both internationally and domestically, was incredibly strong that reducing the drink-drive limit from 0.08 grams to 0.05 grams would have a marked impact on our road toll. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EAlthough the Government has finally relented to the overwhelming evidence and it has finally realised that actually the public is on side with this as well\u2014I mean, it is not often that you get such a perfect alignment of both the evidence and public opinion\u2014I think the Government is underselling this. In fact, Gerry Brownlee, the Minister in charge of this bill, basically said that he does not think it is going to make all that much difference. But he has not looked at the wider issues around the cultural impact of reducing the drink-drive limit. I think we are actually already seeing this. I have to say that from experience people are already much more aware of what is an appropriate amount of alcohol to consume before you get behind the wheel. I think a lot of people have probably adjusted downwards the amount of alcohol that they would consume before they get behind the wheel because of the debate that has gone on around this issue and because of television programmes like, I think, both Seven Sharp and Campbell Live, which both ran little experiments. They were not the most scientific experiments I have ever seen, but they demonstrated just how much alcohol someone could consume and still legally get behind the wheel at the current limit of 0.08 grams. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ESo that debate in itself I think has already made our roads safer. But what, of course, everybody has been desperately waiting for is the legislation to actually pass. It amazes me, given the pace with which the bill is now moving through the House, that National took so long to see fit to actually get on with this, and then it was only because the Opposition was actually in a position where it was going to get legislation of its own through, because, of course, there was a majority. I had secured a majority of support for our member\u2019s bill. It would have passed its first reading and it would have been able to progress through the House just as quickly as this one. The only difference is that it was an Opposition bill and the Government could not possibly have the Opposition get legislation through, especially when it was so obvious that the Government had been sitting on its hands for so long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EHaving said all that, of course we are very, very pleased to see that this legislation is now making good progress. What the bill does, of course, is address the problem of legal drunken driving, because that is what we have got right now. It is legal to be drunk\u2014under any medical definition of intoxication\u2014and still be behind the wheel. That is how high our alcohol limit is right now. So it removes that ability to be drunk behind the wheel legally, and it brings us in line with the vast majority of Western nations around the world. This is not something new. We have actually dragged the chain on this one for far too long, and all we are really doing is bringing ourselves, as a nation, in line with international best practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThere was some debate\u2014and this is where Labour\u2019s bill and the Government bill did differ\u2014and that was about whether being between 0.05 and 0.08 grams should be a criminal offence. Under Labour\u2019s bill, we simply planned to reduce the limit and make it a criminal offence to be over 0.05 grams just as it is right now to be over 0.08 grams. The Government has introduced a system whereby being between the new limit and the old limit is essentially an infringement offence carrying a fee of $200 and 50 demerit points. I would be interested to hear from members who do sit on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee what the evidence was that they heard around that, because I have not seen strong evidence one way or the other, to be honest with you. I am open to hearing whether there is strong evidence one way or the other as to whether it would be better for it to be a criminal offence to be over 0.05 grams or whether it is better to have an infringement offence between 0.05 and 0.08. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI can see what the Government is trying to achieve here. It is a method of ensuring that more people do not end up in the courts\u2014although, to be perfectly honest with you, I think people are smart, and they will adjust to the new limit. You will not see more people in the courts, because they will understand what the new law is and will change their behaviour accordingly. But that is what the Government is trying to achieve. I guess, given that the Government will have a majority for its view and the way it has drafted this legislation, that this is the way it is going to go through, and we will have to see whether it has a significant impact on drink-driving and whether it has a significant impact on the road toll or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThis is something that I think we ought to review after a period of time, in order to see whether the original intention of having it as just one limit with a criminal offence of being over 0.05 grams would be more effective. There are different regimes around the world and that is why I would be interested actually to hear what the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee heard. Did it hear about the different regimes around the world, the different approaches, and how impactful each of those has been? I think that would be useful information for the Committee as we consider this legislation. But overall we do support this legislation, because it is very, very similar to what we were trying to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe Government has also sought to deal with another very, very tricky situation that I know a National Party member attempted to deal with through a member\u2019s bill, and that is the issue of what happens if someone refuses to give blood. I have to say that reading through the legislation as it has now been drafted it still looks like a very tricky and challenging issue. I think this legislation looks as messy as the member\u2019s bill did. Again, I would be interested to hear what the official advice was on how impactful the changes around that are going to be, because there certainly are issues with the presumption of innocence. There are issues with the circumstances under which someone might not be able to give blood, and it appears that there are some exemptions built into the legislation as it has come back from the select committee that could prove to be very difficult to enforce in real terms. As we start this Committee stage, those are the issues that I would be interested in hearing from other members about, interested in exploring, but it is fair to say that in general Labour absolutely supports this legislation because it is something that should have been done years ago, and if the Government had had its wits about it, it would have tackled this issue a long time ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022174d83afb0fa489ab7047095b729e423\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022174d83afb0fa489ab7047095b729e423\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to pick up on a couple of the points made by Iain Lees-Galloway and on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee\u2019s deliberation on a couple of pertinent points that I think he is right to highlight. Firstly, in terms of the 0.05 to 0.08 and whether that should be a criminal offence or an offence essentially punishable with an infringement notice, there were some interesting reports provided to the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EOne point that particularly stuck in my mind was from someone who had had a number of drink-driving convictions. What was quite apparent from him and from his understanding of friends and colleagues is that the general perception out there is that the penalty in itself was far less of a determiner for whether or not they made a decision to drink and drive; it was actually the likelihood of being caught and the fact that there would be a swift and certain consequence to that particular activity. So his strong view was that lowering the limit to 0.05 in actual fact sent a message and put a very big question mark very quickly in the mind of the person who would drink and then go on to drive that if they did, there was far more likely to be a consequence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EI think the important thing to note there, from someone who had committed a number of offences\u2014and the penalties for drink-driving are certainly not insignificant, certainly for repeat drink-driving\u2014is his view that as soon as that limit came down, it changed the game altogether, because it was not a question of \u201CCan I have a few and get away with it?\u201D. It basically sent a message that drinking at all would likely result in a consequence and that the risks outweighed the reward in that sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EI think it was also important to note that the police raised a very good point around the amount of time that officers are required to be tied up dealing with an instance of excess breath-alcohol that may go on to be one of excess blood-alcohol, and what have you. The process itself can be anything from half an hour to a number of hours, depending on whether the police officers are in a rural situation and how far through the process they actually go\u2014through to a full arrest or the like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003ESo the ability for the police to be out on the road obviously gives them a greater deterrent impact. What was clear from the conversations with police and other submitters during the passage of the submissions to the bill was that the police are much more effective not when they are sitting in a booze bus but when they are actually out on the street providing a visual deterrent. Having an infringement notice component to the legislation between 0.05 and 0.08 actually speeds up the process significantly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EWhat was also clear is that it is not the fact that someone may get some hefty fine or even imprisonment that was the great determiner; swiftness, certainty, and the likelihood that there would be a consequence were far more of a determiner about the behaviours and activities. Actually, if we look across other areas of criminal offending, that is common across many other facets, not just with drink-driving. The challenge, of course, that you are dealing with when you are talking about alcohol is that you are talking about a mind-altering substance. So as soon as someone takes it, the very first part of their function, if you like, that is altered is their ability to make judgments. So one thing that is certain is that this legislation provides an opportunity to say \u201CBefore you even start drinking, be aware that even a couple of beers or a couple of wines could put you in a position where there could very likely be a consequence.\u201D Having a greater number of police being able to be out on the street, by virtue of the fact that they can turn over the notices much quicker, adds to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EJust very quickly, in terms of the point that the member made about the presumption of innocence around blood, what came through very clearly, and certainly in other jurisdictions, was that when the consequence of the behaviour was insignificant in terms of it being a criminal offence or a fine, it outweighed the need for there to be an exceptionally high standard of evidentiary proof required at that point. I am happy to leave it there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u00224c117becfa3a49f0b0dcb87ee2f44680\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c117becfa3a49f0b0dcb87ee2f44680\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports tougher measures to curb the worst cases of drink-driving, but the Land Transport Amendment Bill is badly targeted and is aimed at the drink-drivers who do the least harm. The bill would lower the allowable breath-alcohol content from 400 micrograms to 250 micrograms and would reduce the current blood-alcohol limit from 80 milligrams to 50 milligrams. Disobeying these new limits is to be addressed only in the form of infringement notices, on the grounds that they are in the less serious range of offending. That really is the issue here, because the people in this range, between the existing threshold and the new one proposed in this bill, are not the people who cause most of the deaths and injuries on New Zealand roads. So targeting these people is not likely to have the desired effect of reducing the death and injury rate on our roads to any great extent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe lower infringement limits, as proposed in this bill, may, in fact, have an unintended perverse effect, because there will be some people who will convince themselves that drinking to between an estimated blood-alcohol range of 50 milligrams to 80 milligrams, or between 250 micrograms to 400 micrograms per litre of breath, when driving is an acceptable risk because it is only an infringement offence for which a small fine and a few demerit points are incurred if caught.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EAlthough there is evidence and research that shows there is driver impairment between the proposed limits and the existing limits, there is very little convincing evidence that most people are likely to harm themselves or others if they do so. Therefore, it is clear to us in New Zealand First that New Zealand\u2019s existing alcohol limits in relation to driving are unlikely to be too high, and lowering them would be unlikely to be effective. That is also the position taken by the UK Government, I understand, and its drink-driving regime works well, probably because its penalties are higher. We in New Zealand First believe that a better long-term effect could be achieved, firstly, by increasing penalties for offending against the existing alcohol limits of 80 milligrams per 100 millilitres of blood and 400 micrograms per litre of breath. That is why we have adopted this policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ESecondly, we want people to clearly understand that the policy of being caught is actually a probability, by having more police on the road and more random breath tests. In that respect I would have to completely disagree with the previous speaker, Mike Sabin, who felt that there were sufficient police on the road and that sufficient was being done as far as breath testing was concerned. We in New Zealand First do not believe that that is the case and, therefore, people still think that they can get away with it. The new proposed penalties do not reflect the seriousness of the offence. The proposed breath-alcohol limit will not be a criminal offence incurring the full force of the law but would instead provide for only a small fine of $200 and 50 demerit points, and between 50 and 80 milligrams per 100 millilitres of blood, it is $500 and 50 demerit points. Demerit points may eventually lead to a loss of licence, but that is something in the future for most people and does not have much of an immediate effect, and the fines at that level are clearly derisory and are definitely not an adequate deterrent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe public actually does want stronger action and leadership on drink-driving than this Government is apparently prepared to take. New Zealand First wants penalties to reflect public opinion. Looking at the Land Transport Act, I see that for a first conviction, the penalty is up to only 3 months\u2019 imprisonment or a $4,500 fine. We think that it should be up to at least 6 months\u2019 imprisonment or a fine not exceeding $6,000 for a first conviction. That is the scale of penalty that we think would actually make a difference. So the public does want to see a tougher set of actions taken, but this bill does not fit that prescription. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EIn the end what we really need, of course, is a change in the drinking culture towards having a more sensible culture in terms of drinking habits, especially among young people. To that effect, New Zealand First has recently also proposed a policy that says, especially to young people, that if people are found so drunk in a public place or while trespassing on private property that they are likely to be a danger to themselves or to others, then they are committing an offence and would suffer a significant fine or period of imprisonment. That is the sort of provision that we in New Zealand First think will help change the drink culture\u2014and, therefore, the drink-driving culture\u2014in New Zealand. This bill is not enough. It is wimpy. It is weak. For a Government that says that it is going to get tough on crime, this bill goes totally in the other direction and is not what the public would see as being anywhere near adequate as a measure to try to reduce the road toll from drink-driving in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe penalties must reinforce and underpin the fact that drink-driving is a serious offence. It must never be seen to be something that you can do and then just get a small fine or a few demerit points for it. That is going to have the wrong effect in people\u2019s minds. So for that reason, above all, New Zealand First opposes this bill. It is wimpy, it is weak, it is soft on law and order, and it is not where New Zealand First wants to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ETo summarise, New Zealand First will vote against the bill because we want to see better detection of drink-driving, with more police on the road and more breath testing being carried out, so that people will know that their chances of getting away with it are too slim to try it. That is what would be effective. And we want to target the offenders who do real harm. Those are the people who drink at a rate of over 80 milligrams per 100 millilitres of blood. We want those people to suffer much tougher penalties so that it will be a genuine deterrent. We will be voting against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u002228c44c4328a74d8aa0ca64c55e51b20a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228c44c4328a74d8aa0ca64c55e51b20a\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a call in the Committee stage of the Land Transport Amendment Bill. As I said in the second reading, this bill has been a long time coming. It might not be perfect. It might not be perfect and it might not be as tough as New Zealand First would like, but, actually, it is progress. It is progress because we have been waiting and we have been agitating\u2014and so have the public\u2014since 2009 for this change to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI want to start my contribution to the Committee stage by congratulating the members of the Labour Party, Darren Hughes and Iain Lees-Galloway, who put forward this bill way back in 2009 and were calling for this change not only as a member\u2019s bill. It was drawn by the ballot in Iain Lees-Galloway\u2019s name, but we were calling for this change in many a land transport bill that came before this Parliament. We put forward amendment after amendment and the Government voted them down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI also want to congratulate the New Zealand public, because in the end it is the New Zealand public who have put the pressure on the Government to do something about this issue. Indeed, they have been saying this as well since around 2010, when the Herald on Sunday ran a campaign asking the New Zealand public whether they believed that the blood-alcohol content should be reduced. There was overwhelming support in the Herald on Sunday campaign and in the polls that followed. It ran a campaign during that time to get New Zealanders to pledge to drink two drinks as a maximum, and it was a very successful campaign. So I agree with my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs I came into the Chamber I heard him talking about cultural change, and I think that that campaign and Labour\u2019s work over many, many years has actually contributed to a point where the public now accept that the current blood-alcohol limits are, quite frankly, ridiculous. Actually, the public have been saying for some time now that we should be doing what many other countries do. Surely, we would want to be saving the, what is it, three lives a year that have been lost because of this\u2014three lives a year since 2009\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022862dcc45ca854ad78c5e1da2465dd907\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: Not to mention the injuries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207a64058b2df46a49afb9e460dc125fc\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014not to mention the injuries and the terrible costs. So although I accept that some members in this Parliament do not think this bill is tough enough and that we should be tougher on this issue, I am just at the point now where, because it has taken so long to get to the point where we can pass a bill that will have some sanctions with the lower adult legal alcohol limits so that people will drink less than the current limits, I am really pleased to see this change in Parliament, after many, many years of having all of the various experts advising that this was a measure that New Zealand could take easily enough. We should have done it a long time ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EIn 2010 the Government kicked it for touch. It said: \u201COh, we don\u2019t have New Zealand studies on this issue.\u201D, even though there was a truckload of information from overseas. There are many international studies about the benefits of lowering the blood-alcohol content to 0.05. But, anyway, we had the Government\u2014I have to say, I hate to say it\u2014kicking it for touch. I will not say what I was going to say, but the Government kicked it for touch because it did not want to take on this issue publicly, even though the New Zealand public were calling for it. So we waited, from 2010 to 2014\u20144 years of people dying; at least three people a year dying because of the Government\u2019s failure to implement this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EOf course, the other thing about this bill that is very interesting, if you go back in history a wee bit, is that I remember Steven Joyce drinking very enthusiastically\u2014how much did he drink?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a04c757df2b6443daa62acd19ca35088\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Three-quarters of a bottle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c98f9f37c6364cc0bb327776fba2b253\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: He drank three-quarters of a bottle. He said: \u201CQuite frankly, this is a no-brainer. We should fix this.\u201D He said that. Then we had TV programmes showing people drinking 12 beers to reach the 0.08 level\u201412 beers\u2014and currently they are entitled to get into a car. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs I said, we are just at the point where, although the bill may not be perfect and we might like to have some other debate around the penalty system, and we would have liked quite a lot more time to deal with some of the amendments that came to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, we just want to see this bill implemented. That is why I said in my second reading speech that we are here to cooperate with getting this through because it is a step forward and it has taken long enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThere are a number of amendments to Part 1 that caused quite a lot of discussion in the select committee, which, as my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway has said, I think will cause problems in the future. These are around giving a blood specimen. Clause 6 had introduced a change. It was a presumption that a driver had refused to permit a blood specimen to be taken if blood had been required on a previous occasion but he or she was medically or physically unable to provide it. That was a presumption that the driver had refused to give a blood specimen. Indeed we did deal in the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee with this very issue in another member\u2019s bill in the name of Scott Simpson. It is a very, very difficult issue. However, there have been some amendments to clause 6. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe had a lot of debate also about clause 7, which is about paying the costs of the blood test. Even if you have a blood test and are found not to be over the limit, you still have to pay the cost of the blood test. The next tricky part of it will be recovering the cost of the blood test from those who do not pay it. So we are going to have Baycorp knocking on the doors of a few people, trying to recover $700 because they have not paid their bill for having a blood test. We had a lot of advice around this and there were warnings about the legal issues that will arise from this. We predict that this will become problematic and that in the next Parliament you will see another Government\u2014it will not be the current one\u2014coming back and having to amend this bill. Perhaps that is not a bad thing really, because it will give us the opportunity to have another look at this bill and see whether it is working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI support the idea of perhaps having a review after a certain period of time and seeing whether there are other things we could do. We all know that things like the alcohol-free limit for under-20s\u2014zero alcohol for under-20s\u2014has been very successful. Again, that is about changing the culture so that people do not get in a car and think: \u201COh well. I\u2019ve only had nine glasses of wine, so I\u2019m not over the limit yet.\u201D, even though they are dangerous and are dangerous on our roads. I think it will lead to a lot more responsible driving on the roads. In fact, over time I think this will lead us to the point in the future where we are able to introduce a zero alcohol limit when driving on our roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe all know how long culture change takes. I am old enough to remember when seatbelts were introduced. What an uproar there was about that, at the time. People thought that was nanny State and it could not happen and why did they need a seatbelt and it was just appalling. But the fact of the matter is that that measure ended up saving lives, and still does to this day. I think this bill, over time, will change the culture in a way that we have gradually seen with drink-driving over recent years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI think there are some issues, as I said, in Part 1 that we are going to have to have another look at. It is disappointing that we are having to get this bill through at the last minute, but, as I said, we support the bill. It would be good if we could have done it way back in 2009 when it was first mooted by Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00229226d889ab934c12ac343c248f580b71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229226d889ab934c12ac343c248f580b71\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Just to follow on from Darien Fenton, it has to be noted, I think, that the Land Transport Amendment Bill is squeaking through in the last gasp of this parliamentary term. It has been sitting around in this House\u2014going back to the issues being on the Table of this House\u2014since 2009. Although we support this bill, we regret that it has taken so long to progress. If we are going to speak plainly about this, I think we have to acknowledge that the root of the problem, which has held the bill up for so long, is Steven Joyce\u2019s unwillingness to risk being perceived as nanny State. That is basically what it is. In Steven Joyce\u2019s own words, it is the optics. He was so concerned about any public perception that this bill would be perceived as nanny State, as too much of an intrusion on people\u2019s rights to drink and drive, that he was willing to ignore official advice that this bill, these provisions, would save, on average, 3.4 lives per year\u20143.4 fatalities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThat is the advice. That is the social cost\u2014the injuries and fatalities caused by people who have been driving over or within the legal blood-alcohol limit, from 80 to 50 milligrams of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood, for drivers over 20. That is the social cost. There were 61 fatalities, 244 serious injuries, and 761 minor injuries every year, caused by drivers at fault who had been drinking. The social cost of these injuries and fatalities is $446 million. The provisions in this bill alone would save, according to the projections that have been made, 3.4 lives on average, 64 injury-causing crashes, and save $200 million in social costs over the 10 years. That is the cost. That is the cost of delaying this legislation at least 4 years. We find that regrettable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI note that there is another echo of the same dynamic at work with the proposal that was made by Ministry of Transport officials about 3 years ago to make marine lifejackets mandatory for recreational boaties, after a string of appalling drownings, including a whole family on Manukau Harbour about 3 years ago. The transport Minister told the officials to withdraw that material, that advice, and those recommendations to make lifejackets mandatory for recreational boaties and remove them from the paper that went to Cabinet. That advice included the view that making lifejackets mandatory would save 10 to 12 lives a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe support this bill. It is long overdue. As previous speakers have said, this will simply bring us up to speed with other jurisdictions that we often compare ourselves with. I want to come to the point that a couple of other speakers have referred to, and that is the decision made by the Government to basically make it a civil offence instead of a criminal offence. Mike Sabin, in his comments, seemed to be making the argument that making the blood-alcohol infringements that fall between the 80 and 50 milligrams a civil offence would somehow provide greater certainty and speed of consequence, and that it would therefore act as a deterrent. It does not seem like a very compelling argument to me that someone drinking in a bar and contemplating driving home after a few drinks is going to think that because it is a civil offence and not a criminal offence it is acting as more of a deterrent. I do not find that argument very convincing. I did not serve on the select committee, so if the Minister in the chair or others who served on the committee who heard the evidence would like to explain further, I would certainly be keen to hear that explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI think that one of the other interesting clauses in the bill is clause 13, which deals with the power of an enforcement officer to immobilise a vehicle in certain circumstances. I thought that was worth pointing out. Currently an enforcement officer may immobilise a vehicle, or basically forbid the person to drive, if the result of an evidential breath test indicates that they are over the 400 micrograms. This bill essentially broadens that out and says that there only has to be an evidential breath test that is positive and the officer has the right to either forbid them to drive or to immobilise the vehicle. I will leave it there. We support this bill but we regret that it has taken so long to get to this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff97c283bc7a4a40bb9690a36f34e3f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff97c283bc7a4a40bb9690a36f34e3f6\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question that the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u00226a2bb670050a401ca9e6b7640fba3104\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a2bb670050a401ca9e6b7640fba3104\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I just wonder whether you could perhaps give the Green Party the opportunity to check and make sure its votes are accurate. This is a closure motion. This is not the substantive vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022826e0484e5b64e88a147f8e5ddfc4e12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022826e0484e5b64e88a147f8e5ddfc4e12\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank you for that. I am sure that the Green Party understands where we are at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a87d606653244afc871657563dcc6550\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 78\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000389\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 479 in the name of the Hon Gerry Brownlee to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f17695ccccb446c1b0e3c96fb35e661c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221cd74a216e43446d816a20354c32a5a8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002251fe776c5c1d4bb3af7a2deed4a4ddf0\u0022\u003EPart 2  Technical and consequential amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d62a6470de9d4b3f947029b197603b6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d62a6470de9d4b3f947029b197603b6b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: We now move to Part 2. This is debate on clauses 14 and 15 and schedules 1 and 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u00228d96103f4c714dc0856f9c013340a900\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d96103f4c714dc0856f9c013340a900\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 is appropriately titled \u201CTechnical and consequential amendments\u201D, and it is a reasonably technical part of the Land Transport Amendment Bill, but it is indeed consequential. It is an exceptionally consequential part of the bill because it implements the changes that are held in schedules 1 and 2. The changes in schedule 1 are actually the guts of what this is all about. The changes in schedule 1 reduce the blood and breath-alcohol limits\u2014in the case of breath replacing 400 micrograms with 250, and in the case of blood replacing 80 milligrams with 50. This really does go to the very heart of what this legislation is about, which is reducing the drink-drive limit in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI would like to traverse some more of the reasons why we are reducing the drink-drive limit in New Zealand and refer to some of the statements that have been made this afternoon. Denis O\u2019Rourke accurately referred to \u201Cthe drink-drivers who cause the least amount of harm\u201D\u2014I think that was the phrase he used. He referred to \u201Cthe drink-drivers who cause the least amount of harm\u201D and he was absolutely right when he referred to people who are at 80 milligrams of alcohol per litre of blood as drink-drivers, because they, in fact, are drink-drivers. They are drunk at that point, they should not be behind the wheel, and we should not tolerate drink-driving. Our law should not tolerate drink-driving and that is what schedule 1 is all about. It is about ceasing the legal tolerance of drink-driving. It does not matter whether the people who are between 50 and 80 milligrams, or between 250 and 400 micrograms in the case of breath, cause the least amount of harm or are at the lowest end of the scale of drink-driving. They are drink-driving, and it should be codified in our law that they are drink-driving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI think the argument that just because people are a little bit drunk we should continue to allow them to drive under our law is not one that stands up in the court of public opinion. The changes held in schedule 1 actually ensure that in our law we have limits that ensure that people cannot legally be drunk and be behind the wheel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe other reason you would make the changes in schedule 1 is that, as people have referred to, on average 3.5 lives will be saved every year, because that is the number of people killed by drivers who are between 50 and 80 milligrams, and it is really tangible that the evidence is very strong around that. However, there is a good case to be made that more lives than that will be saved by making the changes proposed in Part 2 under schedule 1. That is because when changes like this have been made overseas there has been a measurable reduction in the number of people who are severely intoxicated. That is because, as Mike Sabin pointed out, alcohol is a mind-altering substance, it impairs one\u2019s ability to make good decisions, and once you are over 0.05, then your ability to make a decision about whether if you continue drinking you will still be too drunk to drive is impaired. By bringing the limit down it actually forces people to make a decision whilst they are still capable of making that decision, and what the experience has been overseas is that when that lower limit has come down, the number of highly intoxicated drivers has reduced as well, and that should have a positive impact on our road toll well beyond the known quantity, on average, of 3.5 lives saved per year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI think in a way the Government is underselling this. There is actually a lot more opportunity. There is a lot more potential for lives to be saved because of the changes made in Part 2 of this legislation. It makes good sense to implement the changes held in Part 2, technical and consequential as they may be, because they are the very, very heart of this legislation, and these changes will save lives. For that reason, this House should wholeheartedly support them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227577707845e1435ba0630e258241da79\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002239873e25a3d044b98d8584eafd542dc4\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225faaefe976ba47739d094282cea41783\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002236612b9abea048909563fd0a5166e67e\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022185c0ccce34c4cf1a8e491e4e316c8ef\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cbfd7eb620034374b7613a9537c4c83a\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226871f2d953aa4d659665d109473db00e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002227530545a30c4199b46f4f6bd14488ec\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000400\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022785ea4703b314ad58e2bbc1b49ebf890\u0022\u003EVeterans\u2019 Support Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4fdc0c617314006a131837080263af0\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000403\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 29 May.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c211f5a36964843a502129b72d828ac\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022989a856faed6427e84363d35f95d7868\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022989a856faed6427e84363d35f95d7868\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I want to pick up the theme of what I was saying about the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill, and the fact that although Labour is strongly supporting this bill, very clearly the omission from this bill of recommendations made by the Law Commission and supported by the Returned and Services\u2019 Association weaken the bill, are penny-pinching, and do no credit at all to this Government in honouring the service of our veterans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EYesterday I attended the funeral of one of my constituents. She was 99\u00BD years old. She was due to turn 100 in January of next year. Her name was Audrey Stevens. A few years back I had attended the funeral of her husband, Ivan. Audrey and Ivan were married in 1940. Three weeks after they were married, he sailed for Europe with the 24th Battalion and he was not to return again for more than 5 years. Ivan, like my father-in-law, was captured in Crete. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EAudrey received a telegram. It said that Ivan was missing in action, presumed killed. She had the appalling trauma of thinking that her husband, whom she had just married, had been killed, and then later she was informed that he was a prisoner of war. Ivan never talked about his experiences as a prisoner of war, as was the case with so many of those people, including my father-in-law, who were captured and held by the Germans for many, many years. They simply did not want to talk about it. It was deeply traumatising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhen Ivan came back from Europe, he and Audrey were effectively strangers. Imagine marrying somebody and not seeing them for 5 years. It was not just the length of time that he was away; it was the trauma that he had endured, and in those days there was no counselling for our vets\u2014no counselling at all. For the rest of his life, Ivan suffered from the conditions that he had endured at war and as a prisoner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIs there anything that can persuade this Government that it is now time to be generous with our veterans rather than penny-pinching over whether or not there might be a lump-sum payment available to those veterans on their death? The Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs said to me in an earlier reading in the House that it is no good having the lump-sum payment because that would be for the benefit of the families and not the veterans. I want Minister Woodhouse to contemplate what Audrey had to endure all of those years because of the service that her husband had given this country at war. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe inscription on the wall over there, right in front of me\u2014Crete\u2014is what it was about. That family suffered. That family sacrificed so much, and all I am asking of this Minister is that he honours the recommendation of the Law Commission, which was set up independently to advise, first, the Labour Government that introduced this process, and then the National Government. The Law Commission said to give these veterans, every one of them, a veterans pension, and make it on the same terms as for those who are currently eligible for the veterans pension. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe Minister has been persuaded that his first position was unsustainable\u2014that the veterans pension went to those with 52 percent disability. Why 52 percent? That is absolutely arbitrary. There is no justification for it. He has given the community services card. He has said that the pension would not be suspended if a person is in hospital, but he has penny-pinched by saying there will be no lump-sum payment on death. I asked the Minister this question in the estimates debate: what would it cost? Do you know what it would cost? It would cost $7.5 million this year, dropping by about $1 million every 2 years. Is that too much to ask for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis Government spends countless billions of dollars every year, and we are asking for a tiny amount of money, in line with what the Royal New Zealand Returned and Services\u2019 Association has asked for and what the Law Commission recommended. Why will this Government not honour the vets in the way that we are asking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5d6500a2a654bce917ae6ef4114fa19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5d6500a2a654bce917ae6ef4114fa19\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E This Veterans\u2019 Support Bill is a bill that has been long in its gestation. Its genesis goes back to\u2014and Phil Goff will be able to help me with this\u2014about 2006, I think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022497098da7c2b471f83f3b8b99a86bbbe\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: 2006 under the Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b5eaf420c5445239b8a0c4158e74cca\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: It was 2006 and, as Phil Goff points out, under the Labour Government. That is true. Rick Barker, who was the Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs at the time, asked the Law Commission to carry out a comprehensive review of the War Pensions Act, which, of course, came into being as far back as 1954. That review of the original legislation was a very long time coming. Then the review itself took a long period of time, and that was appropriate because there were a lot of opinions that needed to be canvassed, there were a lot of people who needed to be spoken to, and there was a huge range of issues that needed to be dealt with. The Law Commission eventually came back to Parliament, after the current Government had been elected, with a comprehensive report, and then the Government sat on that report for a very, very long time indeed. Frankly, veterans and their families started to despair that progress would ever be made on this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWe went through the whole term of the last Parliament without any progress being made, and here we are, right at the end of this Government\u2019s final term\u2014the second term of Parliament under this Government\u2014and we are only just now at the point where this legislation has been progressed far enough that it may well, indeed, be passed finally into law, just in the very last breaths of this second term. It is over 8 years on from when the original instruction was given by the then Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs, the Hon Rick Barker, to embark on this process. We knew it was one that was always going to take a long time because there are a lot of issues that need to be dealt with, but it simply did not need to take this long to get to this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe question that is at the front of our minds over on this side of the Chamber in this part, Part 1, is the question around the veterans pension. Through Phil Goff\u2019s advocacy, I am really pleased to see that the Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs, Michael Woodhouse, eventually saw reason and saw fit to propose the changes to the legislation\u2014or most of them\u2014that Phil Goff was proposing around a universal application of the veterans pension. This is something that does not cost Governments a large amount of money. It is unusual in that as time goes on, the cost to the Government actually decreases. Usually, when you introduce a new entitlement or a new policy, the costs actually tend to go up over time. The costs for this policy actually reduce over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIt is a small way of recognising the contribution that our veterans have made around the world to our safety, our security, our peace, and our place\u2014not just that of the veterans themselves but their families as well. As Phil Goff rightly pointed out, the impact of serving overseas, particularly on those veterans who served in full-scale combat in a full-scale war that a generation ago took people away from their family for years\u2014not just for 6 months at a time in a rotation but for years and years and years\u2014is a significant contribution to our nation that has been made by the veterans themselves and their families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIt was a shock, really, that it took as much advocacy from the Opposition spokesperson as was required to get the Government to see fit to apply the veterans pension universally to all veterans. What the Minister has not seen fit to do yet is allow a lump-sum payment to be handed out as well. That is the final component of this issue that Labour would like to see put in place. We implore the Government to take that last step. It has come a way\u2014I was going to say a long way, but it was never a long way to get from where it was to what Labour has been proposing. It was never a long way. The Government has taken most of the steps required. It just needs to take one final step so that we as a nation can properly acknowledge the contribution of veterans and their families to ensuring that we have security and safety here in our country and that we are contributing to peace and security around the world. New Zealand has for a long time had a very good reputation as a keeper of peace and as a pursuer of peace, both in a diplomatic fashion and, where necessary, by deploying our military. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EUntil recent times we, of course, had our forces serving overseas in three different locations on multiple rotations, and that is something that is well acknowledged by the international community. We should justifiably be proud of that and we should be proud of our veterans who carry those tasks out on our behalf. It is not a huge ask for us as a nation to recognise those efforts through the changes that are being made throughout this legislation, particularly in Part 1\u2014in particular, around providing a veterans pension and for lump-sum payments that, certainly, in some cases, may be of direct benefit to the families rather than to the veterans themselves. But, as Phil Goff has outlined, plenty of military families have made a significant sacrifice themselves, as well as the person who was actually in uniform and serving offshore on behalf of the nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThere are a number of parts to this legislation and there are a number of aspects that we on this side of the Chamber do want to consider. We believe that given the long gestation of this legislation and the comprehensive nature of it, it does deserve a comprehensive consideration here at the Committee stage of this legislation. So I look forward to future contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u00225bd5296e30594a2aa31a0c03a1728a3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bd5296e30594a2aa31a0c03a1728a3c\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I have spoken on the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill before, and I firstly just want to compliment Phil Goff on the work he has done on this, because he has progressed it from a point where we had very limited benefits for servicemen who had served our country abroad. Through his lobbying and intensive action on this bill, he has made some real differences, and that will bring about some real differences for many of our veterans. As we all know, we ask our service people to go off and serve our country and to put themselves in harm\u2019s way. We respect them for doing that and we honour them for doing that, but that honour is not just in the form of medals and parades, etc. It is also about the way we treat people in terms of the abilities and the type of support we can get in behind them, in terms of financial support and recognition. This is what this bill is really all about. It is about making sure that the proper recognition is given to our service people for the work and the service that they have undertaken for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIt was in 2006 when Rick Barker first looked at putting forward this bill. It was about 8 years ago. It has taken a long time for this to come to the fore. We would like to see it out of the way under this Parliament. We certainly support the bill, but we are asking for more modifications. In some of our initial Supplementary Order Papers that were put forward, we asked the Government to change the 52 percent disability impairment that was in place. That really was about the ludicrous way in which people had to prove that somehow they were 52 percent impaired. I mean, why 52 percent, as opposed to 51 percent or 55 percent? I do not know, but it was a ludicrous situation that they were in. That was changed, and I thank the Government for coming to its senses and accepting that. One of the other things that it has accepted is allowing veterans to have automatic entitlement to a community services card. Once again, it is a small issue perhaps for many of the people who are looking at this bill, but it is a very big issue for those service people, and it acknowledges the effort and the contribution they have made to New Zealand. The bill also enables the continued payment of a pension while the service person is in hospital for more than 13 weeks. Again, there was recognition and a change occurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThese are all changes that happened to the 1954 Act, which had not been looked at really since 1954, and which the Hon Rick Barker decided in 2006 was well overdue for attention. He went about that change in a responsible way. He got the Law Commission in and asked it in 2008 to make a full inquiry and investigation into what was there and in place, and that is what the Law Commission did. It came back in 2010. Well, here we are in 2014, 4 years after the Law Commission put forward its very learned and very sensible recommendations. They were not radical; they were simply bringing us up to date. Four years on from there, we are still debating this as part of this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ESo our Supplementary Order Papers asked for those changes, in line with what the Law Commission had recommended. The one thing that was not agreed to by this Government was the lump-sum payment on death. For some curious reason the Government believed that that was not going to go to the benefit of the service person and therefore we should not have that paid as part of that person\u2019s entitlement. But, as Phil Goff just mentioned in his remarks before, it was not just one person who, in many ways, did the service, did the time for New Zealand; it was also their loved ones. It was their wives, or it was their husbands, who had been at home looking after kids, trying to make do without one of those parents. It was for the mothers and fathers and the sons and daughters who would have missed out as a result of that person serving our country. It seems to me that this is an incredibly small contribution that we can make to these people and to those people who had been left behind, who also made a sacrifice on behalf of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe cost is infinitesimally small when we look at it in the bigger picture\u2014that is, it will cost about $11 million, according to Veterans Affairs New Zealand, for the 2014-15 year, and it will fall steadily until it gets to about $8.4 million. That is not a lot of money. Unfortunately, some of those veterans are in the last years of their lives\u2014they are old now\u2014which means that the number of those veterans who are around will fall and therefore the cost will fall. At some point in the future\u201420 or 30 years\u2019 time from now\u2014some of our people who have been serving in Timor-Leste, Afghanistan, and the Solomon Islands will become eligible for that lump-sum payment, but that will be some time well down the track. But what it does do is acknowledge fully, as per the recommendations of the Law Commission, the service of our people and their families\u2014and I stress \u201Cand their families\u201D because their families have suffered as well. It recognises that they have made that sacrifice and can be properly acknowledged and compensated for it. It means that a widow whose husband has died is able to meet the costs of a decent funeral and it will enable her to transition and make her life a bit more comfortable as a result of receiving that lump-sum payment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThese are not big things; they are just simply what we should do, as a decent and fair nation, in terms of acknowledging and getting behind and supporting those people who go out and choose to serve our country. They do that, put themselves in harm\u2019s way, come back possibly wounded or scarred psychologically, and have to pick up the pieces and move on with their lives. Those are the costs that we are asking them and their families to bear. All we are saying is that perhaps those families deserve some recognition of their costs, and we should get in behind them. Thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022589c7e895131487aad4ed43222856dc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022589c7e895131487aad4ed43222856dc4\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to be able to stand and take a call in support of the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill and the amendment being put forward by my colleague, the Hon Phil Goff. This may seem like a small piece of legislation, but it is, in fact, a very important piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOn a personal level I am very proud of the military involvement and contribution of members of my own family. My grandfather from Ruat\u014Dria served in the navy in World War II in the Pacific. He was mentioned in dispatches for managing to dispose of a grenade that landed on board. He used to like telling the story. My nana used to say that the real version probably involved a hell of a lot more panic and swearing than the version we were told. But I am very proud of my papa\u2019s involvement in the navy in the Pacific. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOn the other side of my family my grandfather served in the army in Italy. He was actually photographed when he was marching out in Auckland to leave for Italy. What he did not know was that his photo was used as the recruitment poster for World War II in New Zealand, which was very ironic, given that he was a committed pacifist. When he got home he was quite shocked to learn that his photograph had been used. But he served time in an Italian prisoner of war camp over there, and that had an impact on him on his return. Even though he died when I was 6 years old\u2014so I was very young\u2014I know that there was a great impact on my family and on my grandparents from having their men leave and serve overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EMy grandmother actually served with the Wrens up in Auckland. She was mapping all the different shipping movements in the Pacific. On an even more personal level, my great-grandfather was a medic at Gallipoli. I was incredibly fortunate to be part of a Speaker\u2019s delegation that involved Gallipoli on Anzac Day. To stand at Chunuk Bair and to look at the trenches and to see what my great-grandfather saw when he came ashore at Gallipoli and the huge challenge that lay before them was deeply moving. I felt incredibly privileged, as his great-granddaughter, to be able to stand there honouring and commemorating his commitment and the commitment of his colleagues to our country on what was a tragic day but a day that forged a nation. So I come from a family that has had a long contribution to the military in New Zealand, of which I am deeply proud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI also want to pay tribute to another great chief from the Eastern Bay of Plenty. On 17 April Doug Belsham passed away. Doug Belsham will be known to a number of my colleagues for being a very passionate letter writer and someone who would come along to any event we were holding and talk to my colleagues about many of the issues facing veterans in New Zealand. He was the Eastern Bay RSA welfare officer for many, many years. I think it would be a conservative estimate to say that he helped many hundreds and hundreds of people. Although he was based in Whakat\u0101ne, he actually supported veterans, ex-service people, and their families right throughout New Zealand, and even some who were living in Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhat always struck me about Doug in our many, many long conversations was his incredible grasp of the detail of policy and legislation relating to veterans and to ex - service people, his unmoveable commitment to ensuring that access to entitlements and assistance was not eroded, and his phenomenal memory, which allowed him to recall details of pension claims going back more than 20 years. He was a renowned historian of military and political matters, and he is greatly missed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI was actually in touch with Doug in the months before his passing regarding the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill, which we are debating today. This is a bill that came out of a Law Commission review, but the Government has, unfortunately, ignored a key recommendation of that review as well as many of the submissions of veterans and the New Zealand RSA. That Law Commission review, as my colleagues have said, was set up by the last Labour Government. It recommended that all war veterans put in harm\u2019s way in an overseas deployment should be eligible for a veterans pension. The pension is in place of, rather than on top of, New Zealand superannuation and it confers some small but important benefits on our veterans, such as a lump-sum payment on death, a community services card, and the continuation of the pension if hospitalised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EMost returned service personnel who want to go on to the veterans pension do not do so because of the benefits but because they see it as their country honouring their service. However, our veterans are eligible for this pension only if they are considered significantly disabled or, more specifically, have 52 percent or higher impairment. For many years veterans have been asking that this requirement be dropped. This was a position that was endorsed by the New Zealand RSA. Unfortunately, this recommendation has been ignored. The Government has said that the recommendation shall not progress \u201Cat this point in time\u201D. Well, that is all very well and good but time is not on the side of World War II, Korean, Malayan, and Viet Nam veterans. Time is not on their side. As the years pass their numbers are rapidly declining. The decision not to support this recommendation fails to answer the fundamental question of why it should be necessary to be significantly disabled to qualify for a veterans pension. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis year we commemorate the centenary of the start of World War I. There will be many sincere expressions of gratitude for the service of our veterans. Surely we can do more to acknowledge the centenary and our veterans in a tangible way by extending their eligibility for a veterans pension. That is why Labour is moving an amendment in the Committee stage to remove the disability requirement. We are hopeful that the National Government will see the enormous symbolism in this small gesture, reverse its position, and support the change. The cost of doing so is small\u2014$11 million this year, declining to $8 million in 3 years\u2019 time. The message it would send, however, is not small. It is an incredibly important one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ELabour has said we will adopt the Law Commission\u2019s recommendation to ensure all war veterans are eligible for a veterans pension. The RSA National President, Don McIver, says that it would be \u201Ca real indication that the proud and dedicated service of our veterans, potentially with their lives having been put in harm\u2019s way, is recognised as warranting special acknowledgement beyond that provided to New Zealand citizens generally by way of superannuation,\u201D. A Labour Government would do the right thing for our veterans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00220d724f5f0e324aefb80d9db857f44c1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d724f5f0e324aefb80d9db857f44c1c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member. The time has come for me to leave the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00227dfea47ca59746ce967ad528ab3b1e47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dfea47ca59746ce967ad528ab3b1e47\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E As we have said before on the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill, this bill is strongly supported by Labour. Why would Labour not support this when back in 2007 I worked very hard with the then Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs, Rick Barker, to introduce a scheme that would update and modernise the War Pensions Act 1954? That was part of a process of negotiation that I had as Minister of Defence, along with Rick Barker as Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs, with the then president of the Royal New Zealand Returned and Services\u2019 Association, John Campbell, and the chair of the Ex-Vietnam Services Association, Chris Mullane. What we did at that time was work out a process that was designed to achieve the best possible replacement of the 1954 Act. That replacement, we thought, would be best worked through after an extensive period of consultation by a group that was outside the political process. We gave that task to the Law Commission. The Law Commission did do its work incredibly thoroughly, and I would have thought that there was no room for political debate around this\u2014that what we would do is put in place the critical recommendations of the Law Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EPart of the objective of this legislation was to be more generous to our war veterans. But for reasons that this Government has still not explained adequately, it decided to cut costs by cutting benefits to the veterans. First of all, the Minister said that he was not going to allow all veterans who had served on overseas deployments in operational areas to get the veterans pension. You would get that only if you were 52 percent disabled, and, try as I did in the Social Services Committee to find whether there was any rationale behind why a person had to be 52 percent disabled to get a veterans pension, no explanation was forthcoming. The officials had worked hard on this legislation. They could not give an explanation. The National members of the Social Services Committee sitting over there could not give an explanation either. I brought in Supplementary Order Paper 441, which would have changed that. The Minister backed down at that point because he knew his position was absolutely unsupportable, and he agreed that the veterans pension would apply to all of those who had operational service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EAlong with that, there are these small benefits. You get the community services card automatically, and you keep your pension if you are hospitalised for more than 13 weeks. But in an extraordinary display of penny-pinching, the Minister said: \u201CBut we are not going to give those veterans a lump-sum payment on death to cover the funeral costs\u201D\u2014it is a small amount, at $5,700\u2014\u201Cunless they are still 52 percent disabled.\u201D I asked the Minister why. Outside of this Chamber I sought to get agreement from the Minister. First of all, he said that this would just help the families. Unapologetically, I say that the families of the veterans deserve that support, and every veteran would say that. The veterans are not naive about that. Then the Minister said that the cost was too great. I asked the question in the select committee on the estimates, and the cost is $7.3 million in the first year, dropping by $1 million every 2 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis Government in the foreign affairs estimates is going to spend $13 million on a conference next month in Samoa\u2014$13 million\u2014but somehow we cannot afford to give $7 million to honour the veterans, who put their lives at risk, who sacrificed for their country, who worked for their country. We cannot afford it. We can give Rio Tinto $30 million to keep Bluff going for another year or two, but we cannot give our veterans $7.3 million. That excuse simply does not wash. I asked the Minister what was happening with veterans\u2019 affairs expenditure. You know, it is down $23 million over the last 5 years. It has been cut by $23 million. Over the next 4 years it will be cut by another $22 million. The money is there now, so let some person, just one person, on the National benches stand up and explain why we are rejecting what the veterans ask for, why we are rejecting what the RSA asks for, and why we are rejecting what the Law Commission recommended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 480 in the name of the Hon Michael Woodhouse to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 441 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question that the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022676427546f6c4618826c6c842da15df2\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Are you sure the M\u0101ori Party are opposed? They said they were going to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002243962208ddd44277b75887e3d07b1013\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243962208ddd44277b75887e3d07b1013\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member has been around a while and he knows that that is entirely out of order. The members casting votes know the consequences of misleading the House. No member should interrupt a vote, for any purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00228ff4aa3b97ca4a109928db3f2f10ea50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ff4aa3b97ca4a109928db3f2f10ea50\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I was trying to be helpful to the whip\u2014just to check out that he had read his instructions right\u2014because my understanding from the M\u0101ori Party was that it would be supporting the amendments. I would rather sort it out now than have the whip come back and explain to the House afterwards that he got it wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5070702d2784e00a8ec2e878de399d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5070702d2784e00a8ec2e878de399d8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: There is a process and it is not to interject and the member is admonished for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022899489069b55466e953494bc34e5e749\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022899489069b55466e953494bc34e5e749\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I am reading from what I believe to be the instructions but I hear the point that the member is making. Maybe there is an opportunity just for me to double-check that, but it is my understanding that I am recording the vote correctly and I seek\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b694b288bc61411db7b80330ea5f115d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b694b288bc61411db7b80330ea5f115d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Let me just now score what the process is. The member who is casting the vote should do so on the instruction he has. If he gets an instruction that he has voted in error of what the intention was, it is the course of this House by leave to correct the vote. That is the way it works. So we will now ask the Clerk to continue. He should call the last vote again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222aa58031d5224bcf922e727147e5c5b4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000454\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 452 in the name of Andrew Williams to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225e5e655ed719448191023ba88329965f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000455\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b243a656465483ba112509369bdf5cd\u0022\u003EPart 2  Code of Veterans\u2019 and Other Claimants\u2019 Rights\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab9f0f39b48f495d94bf8d4fe18498ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab9f0f39b48f495d94bf8d4fe18498ba\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of Part 2. It is a relatively small part, but it is nevertheless reasonably important. It talks about the obligations that are placed on VANZ\u2014that is, Veterans Affairs New Zealand\u2014and the rights that it accords to the veterans. I think it is important that we codify the rights that veterans are entitled to and that we do place those obligations on the department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EOften old people generally, but in particular vets, feel that because of their age they do not count for anything, they are not listened to, and they are not treated with respect. Some of that is perhaps a little unfair on Veterans Affairs, but it is certainly a feeling that the veterans themselves have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIn Part 2 we set out a code of veterans\u2019 and other claimants\u2019 rights. It specifies what Veterans Affairs should do. That refers back, actually, to clause 14A of the bill. Veterans Affairs has such responsibilities imposed on it as having to \u201Cperform its functions and exercise its powers on reasonable grounds and in a timely manner,\u201D. The difficulty with any sort of code like that is that it is relatively subjective in how it is set out, but it does at least give those who are trying to exercise their rights something to refer to. It requires under clause 14B that Veterans Affairs keeps veterans up to date on the progress of their claim and gives notice of its decision. Again, that would seem a relatively straightforward and proper thing for it to do. Also, under clause 14C, Veterans Affairs must tell the claimants about their review rights\u2014that they have the right to apply for a review of any of the decisions made by Veterans Affairs on the claim\u2014and it must do so at a time appropriate to enable the claimant to exercise their rights. They are relatively straightforward but nevertheless important rights that are set out in the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EPart 2 also requires under clause 26 that the person who drafts the code of rights is the Chief of Defence Force, and he must do that\u2014or, theoretically, she must do that\u2014as soon as is practicable after the provision comes into force. The Chief of Defence Force has to consult with a group that is established by the Minister of Defence. This clause sets out that that group must include the Royal New Zealand Returned and Services Association and other groups representing veterans and claimants. I think it is important that the veterans themselves are involved in this process of drawing up the code of rights. It means that the people who are affected by this legislation and by the code do have an input into it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe final decision rests with the Minister under clause 27, and the Minister must decide whether or not to approve that particular code. Presumably, the Minister can send it back to the Chief of Defence Force if he feels that the code is not sufficiently full or comprehensive enough to cover the areas that need that coverage. The Minister must then, after he has approved the code, present the code to this House within 12 sitting days of Parliament to ensure that the House sees what is in the code, and the Minister must arrange for the approval of the code to be notified in the newspapers. That is pretty much that clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThere is not a lot that is controversial about Part 2. As I said before, the Labour Opposition is fully supportive of the main areas of this bill, which are designed to promote the interests and to respect the interests of the veterans and the service that they have provided to this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022a958e138ae5c482f9dca697b1aca6815\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a958e138ae5c482f9dca697b1aca6815\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E E te Heamana, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Koutou ng\u0101 rangatira o te Whare nei, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou i runga i te reo karanga e whakanui ana i Te Reo M\u0101ori. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, Mr Chairman, and to you collectively esteemed ones of this House upon the call to celebrate the M\u0101ori language. So acknowledgments, salutations, and greetings once again to all of us.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EHopefully, my pronunciation is actually OK to celebrate Te Reo language week. This is my first opportunity to speak in the Committee stage of the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill. I would like to start by sending my condolences to the Vinten family. Des Vinten is the president of the New Zealand Korea Veterans Association. His wife, Helen, has passed away, and today was her funeral. I was lucky enough to be part of the family and friends who were in Lower Hutt today for her funeral. I send the family my love and my sincere condolences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI think everybody knows that I hold the Korean veterans very dear to my heart. Being the only Korean-born member of Parliament, I have always said that I owe my life to the veterans, because who knows what would have actually happened if the Korean War did not end the way it did? For 3 years Korea was devastated with the bloodiest war. Korean veterans, the K-force, answered the call of the United Nations to assist the Korean Peninsula. The South Koreans are for ever grateful. I do not know how the North Koreans actually feel about the Korean veterans\u2014I have not talked to one of them\u2014but the South Koreans are definitely grateful for their service, their very long service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIt is winter, and I forgot to wear socks today. I am wearing high heels. My feet were freezing when I went to the church service. It reminded me of the talk at the veterans association. They talked about the nasty winter they went to fight in. Their boots split open. New Zealand\u2019s winter is nowhere near as cold as the one that they faced in Korea. They fought for my former nation. I take this opportunity to say thank you to all Korean veterans\u2014the New Zealand Korea Veterans Association; the K-force veterans\u2014who served there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis bill will make sure that we can better meet the needs of the older veterans who require assistance to stay in their own homes, and also meet the needs of veterans on modern-day deployment who need rehabilitation and assistance to return to work. Earlier Mr Phil Goff talked about this bill not providing the veterans pension to all of those servicemen. I would like to just correct him. Supplementary Order Paper 480, in the name of the Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs, means that all of the veterans do get the veterans pension. The only difference is the lump-sum payment. It still requires the attachment of the disablement criteria, which now sits at 52 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe Veterans\u2019 Support Bill still contains many of the provisions in the current Act. The service eligibility criteria remains the same, and all the veterans currently covered under the 1954 Act will have coverage under the new law. Health care treatments for accepted conditions will continue to be funded, no veteran will have their entitlements reduced, and thousands will actually benefit from increased care and support. To me, that is a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis National-led Government is committed to honouring the servicemen and women, the service that veterans have given to our country, and the people who have actually served in overseas deployments. We owe them a great debt. Service in defence of our nation for freedom and democracy around the world needs appropriate recognition in legislation. The Veterans\u2019 Support Bill delivers on our election promise. This Government has committed $60 million for a package to support this new legislation. Part of this package saw the war disablement pension and the surviving spouse pension increase by 5 percent last year on top of inflation. We are supporting an amendment to the bill that will extend eligibility for the veterans pension to all veterans over the age of 65. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI think it was my learned colleague to my right, Mike Sabin, who said in an earlier speech in this debate\u2014I think it was the first reading\u2014that our veterans, our servicemen and women, do not go to war or deployment overseas thinking that they are going to come back and get a lump sum. They actually do go into service for their country because they feel that it is the right thing to do. They are duty-bound\u2014honour-bound. I was reading one of the books about the Korean War and I read something that some of those men wrote. They went there on an adventure. They did not go to war because they felt that they were going to get a bigger pay at the end of it; they went for adventure. They felt that they were joining their friends in comradery in overseas nations that required their service. Korea was one of them. There are plenty of examples of their service displayed on our walls. New Zealanders have gone to many, many wars and they have served our people and the people overseas. Their service is recognised in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis bill will increase the number of New Zealanders eligible for the veterans pension by nearly 17,000\u2014from 8,600 currently to more than 25,000. That is 19,900 veterans and about 5,000 spouses. Importantly, it also means that thousands more veterans will benefit from any future changes provided to those on a veterans pension. We understand the importance to veterans of the recognition of their service and that being paid a veterans pension gives them the distinction from others who did not actually serve\u2014namely, New Zealand superannuation. The lump-sum payment on death will continue to be paid to all of those servicemen and women who meet the current threshold as is provided for in the bill as drafted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe legislation provides for two schemes of entitlement. Scheme one starts on 1 October this year and applies to all veterans with service from the Second World War through to the Viet Nam War. Scheme two starts on 1 October 2015 and applies to personnel with service post - 1 April 1974, when ACC was introduced. It will be closely aligned with ACC entitlements, as recommended by the Law Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe Government is committed to improving veterans support, and this is reflected in the bill as reported back by our Social Services Committee. Submissions questioned the 55 percent threshold and whether that was, in fact, appropriate, and I know that Mr Goff talked about that in terms of the appropriate level of whole-person impairment. I personally had difficulty trying to gather the way that Veterans Affairs New Zealand calculated the level of disablement as well, because when the total was calculated, it ended up becoming more than 100 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo the way we have done it now, in terms of the percentage, is that it goes up to 100 percent, and they now have to be 52 percent disabled to be entitled to the lump-sum payment\u2014the extra payment apart from the veterans pension. This is much clearer than it was previously, when disablements were lumped together, added together, and often ended up becoming more than 100 percent. I do not know if anybody is 100 percent disabled\u2014I would have thought that meant you are actually not alive. The select committee established that 52 percent whole-person impairment was the most equivalent threshold, and in order not to disadvantage veterans, the threshold will be moved from 55 percent to 52 percent. To further ensure that no veterans are disadvantaged by this provision, the bill has been amended to provide that a veteran or other claimant who currently meets the threshold for entitlement under the 1954 Act will continue to do so if they claim under this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EWe have put a lot of work into this bill. I see that the advisers are here. They have helped us through the long process that the select committee went through. We have had many submissions from our veteran community as well, and we have had discussions with the Opposition. We are very happy to have arrived at where we are. It would be a fantastic thing if we could provide more money for our veterans. It would be a fantastic thing if we could provide all the support that we possibly could. We have to be fair and we have to be fiscally balanced, but we have to be supportive of our veterans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3615a22310549de9e27912486b1d07f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3615a22310549de9e27912486b1d07f\u0022\u003ETRACEY MARTIN (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. I rise to speak on behalf of New Zealand First on the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill. I just want to read clause 25: \u201CThe purpose of the Code is to meet the reasonable expectations of veterans and claimants (including the highest practicable standard of service and fairness) \u2026\u201D, and I think that is a really good statement. It is about the highest standard of service and fairness. These individuals\u2014men and women\u2014gave us their highest standard of service. They went away to a variety of conflicts to stand for us on those fields of battle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge my grandfathers. Both of them served in World War II, but in different ways. My mother\u2019s father went to Egypt and also Italy and served with the New Zealand Engineers, and my father\u2019s father was the second officer in charge at the Featherston prisoner of war camp during the particular period of the Featherston riot. So both men saw very different service for their country, but they went none the less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ESome might say that those servicemen went for adventure. Some really went because we asked them to. We asked them, as a nation, to go and stand against an evil that we believed needed to be stopped, and they were among many. They expect, and should expect, the highest-practicable standard of service and fairness from their country when they come home. They go on to try to lead normal lives, some of them after terrible ordeals in the field on our behalf. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI also want to remark on how good it is that we as a nation have moved on, as many nations have. Unlike the way that we thought as a nation in 1960s, when we had some of our servicemen take off their uniforms and get back into civvy clothing and go home quietly late at night and without any recognition, we now recognise that these men and these women serve and carry out orders because we have asked them to do so. We acknowledge their service and hold the decision makers to account for these conflicts, as opposed to some of the scenes that we had in the 1960s and the 1970s, after Korea and Malaya and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI also just want to take this moment to acknowledge Sol Te Whata, who passed away on Sunday. Sol was a member of the 28th M\u0101ori Battalion in A Company. He passed away on Sunday morning in the Hokianga and his tangi will be on Thursday. Our thoughts are will him. He was one of two of the last surviving members of the M\u0101ori Battalion in the north. He lived to a ripe old age. He had three wives, I believe, so he was certainly a man with spirit. He was a man who gave for his country and then came back and continued to participate in his community and with his family and who lived his life to the full. So our thoughts go to him, to those who served with him who are no longer with us, and to those who served with him who are still with us and who deserve our care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EThat is what this bill is about. It is about making sure that those who served\u2014both the gentlemen who are of a passing generation and the new veterans who are coming, because the world will never be a 100 percent peaceful place. That is something that we might wish for, but every now and then men and women of our nation are going to have to stand up for us and go into conflict, whether to protect others, or whether to actually create a line in the sand that says: \u201CNo more. This is wrong. We are here on behalf of the New Zealand people to say stop, or we will actually enforce international law.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ESo this is just a quick call to again reinforce New Zealand First\u2019s support for this bill and express our disappointment that it has taken so long. We believe it is timely. We believe that the burden of proof with regard to medical claims, and so on and so forth, should not be on the veterans. If medical records have been lost, then it is not for them to have to try to convince a bureaucrat in an office somewhere that the illness that they now suffer from has come out of their service, from when they served their country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u00227c9455cd664d4882bdc4f4ac97cd9196\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c9455cd664d4882bdc4f4ac97cd9196\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to pick up on a couple of points that were made in the contributions by National members, and one is that men did not go to war to get a pension. Of course they did not, and really that is denigrating what they went to war for. They did not go to war necessarily for a sense of adventure either. They may have wanted that, but most men went to war because they believed that it was the right thing to do. They went to war because they felt a sense of duty\u2014a sense of what was right and what was wrong. They may have gone from a sense of patriotism\u2014that they were standing up and doing the right thing for their country. To try to say somehow that we should not increase our pensions because people did not go to war to pick up a pension is, I think, just ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis part of the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill, Part 2, is only a short part, but it is still an important part. It is the part that actually sets out the purpose of the code. The code is set out in Part 2. It sets out the rights and obligations in the code. It indicates that the code will be put together in a draft form by the persons nominated by the Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs. They will work on that and then the approval of the draft code will be done by the Minister after that. A notice will be put in the Gazette to approve the code, and the Minister must present the code to this House within 12 sitting days of it going through. In many ways the code sets the sort of underlying architecture of what we are talking about today. It is a solid basis on which the rest of the bill will be supported, hence the reason it is in Part 2\u2014it is in there. I will not go on any further than that, other than to say that the obligations and the rights to respect that code are also there in Part 2. Provisions for any amendments that need to be made and how they are meant to be made are set out in clause 30. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EBut just coming back\u2014I could not let that one go by\u2014to why our soldiers go off to war. They go off and they serve New Zealand well. They do it for a variety of reasons, but they certainly do not have\u2014I mean, it is ridiculous to think that a 19-year-old has the possibility of earning a pension in their mind when they go off to war. What we on this side certainly do believe is that anybody who does serve their country in that way deserves the veterans pension and also deserves the lump-sum payment\u2014their family deserves the lump-sum payment. But this Government is scrimping on that last recommendation by the Law Commission, a very eminent body. It took 2 years and an enormous amount of consultation in order to look at this. It is supported by the Returned and Services\u2019 Association right across New Zealand. The association supports this as well. It is time that this Government gets with the pace and actually realises that this is a small amount of money\u2014it is $7 million, or $8 million at most. It is time that the Government gets with it and gets in behind it and gives our people and those people who serve New Zealand so well the financial recognition that they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c13052533ffc48f6b5b28e71bf74a306\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c13052533ffc48f6b5b28e71bf74a306\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Mike\u2014oh no. We have not had a Green. Catherine Delahunty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u00225227226234de48d481ff7e8efad7d519\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225227226234de48d481ff7e8efad7d519\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call. I am sure there will be space for others to do so as well at this Committee stage on the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill. I want to speak about the real cost of the health issues associated with some veterans and about experiences that I have had, both those in my partner\u2019s family with his father and with the Viet Nam veterans whom I travelled this country with on a tour called People Poisoned Daily. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWe cannot underestimate the real cost of the trauma of war. I personally do not believe anyone comes back without being traumatised. I do not believe that killing or being killed and witnessing people being killed can do anything except damage and create trauma, which has to be addressed at some level\u2014as well as all of the other more noble sentiments. When I see the psychological pain that gets carried and passed on down the generations, I think there is a really great need for the resources to support veterans to recover from some of that trauma. I am thinking of people who went to Afghanistan and were extremely traumatised in ways that you would not even imagine from participating in what was supposedly not even really our war.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EHowever, the one I want to focus on is the Viet Nam veterans and the experience that they had, because it relates to this bill, and the costs\u2014the real health costs. One of the members, Melissa Lee, talked about whether you can be 100 percent disabled. When people are exposed to agent orange, which is dioxin, they can indeed be alive but 100 percent disabled\u2014not only themselves but their children and grandchildren. So we are talking about intergenerational poisonous effects from a chemical that was manufactured in some places in this country and used to destroy the population of Viet Nam and to destroy the jungle. It is a defoliant and it is a toxic chlorinated persistent chemical, but it also affected the bodies of our veterans. For whatever reason they went to Viet Nam\u2014and I was not a supporter and I still am not\u2014they did not expect that they would be poisoned and their families would be poisoned and their children would be poisoned and their wives\u2019 lives would be affected and that they would be compromised by exposure to a defoliant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWhen we travelled the country with the People Poisoned Daily tour, the veterans told us their stories. These stories are not pretty stories. They are stories of a multiplicity of effects that are difficult to diagnose, let alone fix. So it is not a matter of just identifying a health issue and getting the funds to pay to fix it. Dioxin poisoning cannot be fixed and it has intergenerational effects, such as birth defects and heart conditions in the children and the grandchildren. The exposure to dioxin that those soldiers experienced has been passed on through the generations. I have met the people who have been affected. So it is not just about the soldiers. One of the reasons we were touring was that the soldiers were sick of trying to tell people that it was not just them; they wanted their children and grandchildren acknowledged as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThere is a lot of rhetoric about war in this Chamber and a lot of rhetoric about service, but actually the reality is that people who come back damaged like that are entitled to be looked after, and we have to be listening a lot harder to them. So I was very concerned when I heard their stories about how little support they actually had. I was very, very concerned to see the effects that that dioxin poisoning had on these people and on their families\u2014the real price of throwing poisons around in a war zone. When you see the phosphorous bombs that are falling on Gaza today and tonight and the cluster bombs that were used in Afghanistan and the uranium that was used in Iraq, the endless use of chemicals, we have to realise that we are creating a cost for these people, not only the soldiers but the citizens of those countries who live with the permanent effects. We should apologise to the Viet Namese people for that, if nothing else. And we should protect these veterans with these long-term consequences. Their children and their grandchildren are going to need help because they have been poisoned by one of the worst chemicals ever used on this planet. It is still used in other forms but no longer called agent orange and no longer used in quite the same way. We have found new ways to include toxic chemicals in war. We have found new ways to poison and destroy people and create cancer, because the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002281128e5cf914403fb8397be15ec49b2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281128e5cf914403fb8397be15ec49b2a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Mike Sabin. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdb3456f94624194a795fd999f395625\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdb3456f94624194a795fd999f395625\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E The member Catherine Delahunty is a little perplexed, I feel. I just want to acknowledge a few members on the Social Services Committee\u2014in particular, the Hon Phil Goff. I do not throw too many bouquets across the other side of the Chamber, but on this occasion I will because I think that right throughout, Mr Goff has articulated a very, very strong argument and an argument that holds a lot of weight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EI think that the committee actually tangled with a number of issues because of what we are dealing with here in the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill. I mean, although we are talking about millions of dollars, veterans pensions, and what have you, the point is quite clear that no one can put a dollar figure on what our veterans contribute to the country in the sacrifices that they make personally, with their families, with their communities, and so forth. This is not just about the Great War but it is also about the peacekeeping roles of the modern soldiers, sailors, and airmen\u2014am I supposed to use some sort of generic gender format there? I am not sure. I am looking across at Major Rebecca Thornley for guidance, but she is not helping me out at this stage, so I will stumble on. I do not think that there is a dollar value that can be put on that, and I think that everyone across Parliament, when dealing with this in the select committee, actually acknowledged that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EI guess that where I differ from Mr Goff is in terms of the idea of zeroing out, essentially, the disability component of it. [Interruption] I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am trying to have a pretty valid discussion here and the Green members were just\u2014it seems that they have now calmed down, so I will carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227850972bbff7429ca0aef7e4b03f0b57\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I was just discussing an issue pertinent to the bill with the Minister and my attention was diverted. If there is an issue, the member should raise a point of order and then we will deal with it, but let us proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bbea54b4e98402d9aa51bdaa2a8c52a\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, Mr Chair. Thank you very much. So the issue where I guess I differ from Mr Goff is in terms of the disability component. The 70 percent requirement became 52 percent, which is essentially parity between the old system and the new system. What that requirement essentially acknowledges is that where someone has a degree of disability\u2014and it comes in many and varied shapes and forms, and it is quite a complex equation in terms of measuring that\u2014that disability will be recognised on death with a lump-sum payment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThe issue that I have with saying: \u201CRight, well, it is only a few million dollars. Why trifle with this? Shouldn\u2019t we zero that out and have everyone get that lump-sum payment?\u201D is that for so long many have been in the position where they were not eligible for that and they did not get that. It should not be just a matter of timing that means that that should change. Perhaps that discussion should have been had some time ago\u2014a long time ago\u2014and then it could probably hold a little more water. So to me it is not really about the value but it is also about actually recognising those who were recognised as veterans under the scheme as it previously was, as much as it is about recognising those who will be subject to this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EMy father is a former naval man\u2014a sailor\u2014and so is my uncle. He joined the navy as a seaman as a boy, I think, and that is actually how I came to be, because my father ended up marrying my uncle Lou\u2014that is where my mother came into the equation, and here I am. Here I am.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218246c24eef645a7aa3094516d51cbca\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Your father married your uncle?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c80b858c8004b2bb73f058cb11dc2c5\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014no. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022643dc72c29c944f59c709d1d2a8e287b\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What! You can\u2019t have a baby like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cef397a566f46b5b7b104630b27d611\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! My uncle\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc241bff3da34f1cbac3a1f35950d440\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a miracle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a87f2ae7d3f04df3b26e66f7abae4bbd\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: It is a miracle, I know\u2014I am. I am often puzzled myself how I came to be, but my uncle\u2019s sister is my mother, indeed. So many a story has been told\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bd565f266104250b5226ff636408e4e\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: This is one of those Northland stories, I know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227555cfe342034480a2daa9c1279d7622\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, hold on\u2014hold on. Let me draw it back. I also joined the navy, and that is where it got really confusing. I am not sure who I married at that time. [Bell rung] Mr Chair, I have got to keep going with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E So I also joined the navy, and spent a couple of very passionate years in the navy. I was passionate about service to the country and the role that all servicemen and women play in what is quite a different arena from what it was\u2014certainly from what it was when we look back on the great wars and on some of the major sacrifices and challenges that were faced by our servicemen and women at that stage. What it gave me was a great appreciation, I guess, of the meaning of military service, and I think that David Shearer has certainly pointed that out. Although he takes issue with it, no one goes to war or joins a military service thinking about what will be at the end of that if they do end up in a confrontation and if they do end up serving their country in that manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EIt is fair to say that from my experience as an active serviceman and from having talked to many veterans since, none of the passion that they hold and the sincerity that they have about serving their country is really reflected in any way in a dollar value. What they do want to have reflected is the importance of their role in serving and upholding what they believe is important to their family, their country, their nation, and the world that they live in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EI do not think it is possible to actually land in a place that would actively reflect that, and actually in many senses I do not believe that veterans expect that, but the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 480 essentially enables all veterans\u2019 service to be recognised at the age of 65 so that all veterans and their spouses would receive the veterans pension at that time. By maintaining what was the status quo in terms of the equation of disability, it means that what was under the previous legislation essentially migrates through into the new legislation. I think that is fair on both the modern-day veteran and also those who have passed. I think it is important to understand, as I have mentioned, that it should not just be the case that because there are only a few veterans, or we are talking about a reduction in that overall disability cost, the disability equation should be zeroed out. That is my view, but I do accept that the Hon Phil Goff raises good arguments as to why that should not be the case. I think that the fact of the matter is that it is hard to put a dollar value on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003ELastly, I just want to acknowledge Major Rebecca Thornley and the other officials advising the committee. They provided the committee with very, very sound advice and guidance on what is for a number of us a very sensitive issue on a whole lot of levels. There is no one in this House who does not take this matter of getting the balance right very, very seriously. So I just want to commend the work of the officials and members across Parliament on this. Although we do not agree on everything\u2014and I guess that is the nature of politics to some extent\u2014I personally think that the bill is landing in a pretty good place and it does recognise and reflect the significant investment in our veterans community. It is a dollar value investment in some senses, but the important thing is that this Parliament recognises the service that veterans give well beyond that. Lest we forget that, members in this Chamber are surrounded by memorials that reflect exactly that service. So I will leave it there, before I get myself too much more complicated. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 480 in the name of the Hon Michael Woodhouse to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u00225415307a1b464d34885c625cddbdb016\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225415307a1b464d34885c625cddbdb016\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for Parts 3, 4, and 5 to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022babb5074cc8949e486cc2988fbcfc3a6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? There appears not. Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ea8089b66f64b9dad3c24d4b735f1e5\u0022\u003EParts 3, 4, and 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022a79592770501495b9465b81ce9158e36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a79592770501495b9465b81ce9158e36\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I think it makes sense to talk about the three parts together. Part 3 sets out scheme one, which deals with the veterans who served before April 1974 plus those who served in Viet Nam at Qui Nhon as support for the medical team, and Squadron 41 up to 1975. Part 4 deals with scheme two, which deals with veterans since that time. The reason for separating that out is the introduction of accident compensation in April 1974. The whole emphasis in respect of those who have served since 1974-75 is on rehabilitation, getting the person back to the position they were in before they sustained the injury that led them to require that support. Part 5 deals with elements that are common to both scheme one and scheme two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EBut I just want to comment on the discussion that we have had. It is not what we agree on, which is most of this bill, that concerns me; it is where we disagree. Where we disagree is that somehow we think that you can set up a Law Commission to independently analyse and then ignore its recommendations about how we should treat our veterans. There ought to be a good reason if we depart from those recommendations. But there is no good reason why we should depart from its recommendation relating to the payment of all of the benefits that go with the veterans pension. What effectively we have had happen here is that the Law Commission, supported by the veterans, supported by the Royal New Zealand Returned and Services\u2019 Association, recommended that veterans should get a level of benefit because they have served our country. What this National Government has done is cut the amount of money that the Law Commission and the RSA both recommended should go to our veterans. This is about cutting support for our veterans. Do you know what amount it is about? It is about a miserable $7.4 million. That is what it would take to give our veterans the full entitlement that the RSA and the Law Commission said they should have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis is penny-pinching. This is miserable. This is mean. In the 100 years since the First World War, as we mark that centenary, this Government marks itself out as being so miserable that it is going to take $7.4 million away from the veterans whom the Law Commission, the RSA, and the veterans believe they are entitled to. I have not heard one valid argument, in this whole debate, from National to justify doing that\u2014$7.4 million. You know, the Government is spending twice that amount of money on one conference, the Third International Conference on Small Island Developing States in Samoa next month. Are our veterans less important than that? The Government is spending $30 million on Rio Tinto, a foreign multinational. Are our veterans, who sacrificed for our country, less important than the money that the Government is prepared to put into a foreign multinational company? The Government spends $150 million in legal fees on hocking off our assets, which many of our veterans, like my father-in-law, came back from the war to build up. They worked on the hydro dams at Mangakino and Aratiatia. There is $150 million in legal fees to lawyers, to hock off the assets that we New Zealanders own, but the Government cannot spend $7.4 million to give our veterans what the Law Commission said, after due consultation, after careful analysis, our veterans were entitled to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe Veterans\u2019 Support Bill, in this form, cuts the entitlements that our veterans should have got if the recommendations of the Law Commission and the RSA were followed. I have not heard a single argument to justify why we should be penny-pinching from our veterans, as we commemorate in this centenary year all of those who have died, all of those who have given service, and all of those who have sacrificed for our country. I think that is pathetic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIn terms of the parts in front of us, we have, first of all, scheme one, which will deal with those veterans who served prior to 1974-75. Basically, what we have tried to do in this part of the bill is preserve the entitlements that those older veterans from the Second World War, from Korea, from Malaya, from Malaysia, and from Viet Nam are entitled to. Those entitlements are good entitlements. I do not think there is anybody in this Chamber who would deny our veterans the right to those entitlements\u2014entitlements such as travel costs associated with treatment and long-term hospital care, a disablement pension that people get in addition to their veterans pension, taking into account the level of disablement that they have suffered, weekly income compensation, retirement lump sum, entitlements for spouses, and bursaries for children. I think all of those are important entitlements. I think some of them are quite reasonable entitlements. I do not think they are more generous than what other veterans in similar countries like Canada, Australia, the United States, and the United Kingdom are getting, but they are entitlements that should be there. We stand by maintaining those entitlements and lifting them above the level that they were once set at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIn terms of the second part, which relates to the post - Viet Nam War veterans, that is designed to take into account the changes that were brought about by the accident compensation scheme. Before we had the accident compensation scheme, the pension for veterans effectively was compensation for those who had suffered accidents. Now we need to ensure that there is a complementarity between the accident compensation payments and those received by war veterans\u2014not just a complementarity but to ensure there is a margin over and above those entitlements that we give to war veterans. There should be that margin because these are people who have suffered their injuries in the service of their country. There is a top-up to preserve the additional support provided to veterans under the 1954 Act, over and above that available to other New Zealanders, and it will ensure that all scheme two veterans receive the same amount of compensation, whether or not their accident compensation claim was accepted. I think that is important. I think it is important that we have moved to focus on rehabilitation and restoration to pre-injury capability, to the maximum extent possible. The assistance provided to veterans is about incentivising wellness and using rehabilitation as a way of leading to other assistance that might be available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI think one of the important changes that is made in scheme two is in relation to the lump-sum payment rate. That will be set at the equivalent payable under the accident compensation scheme plus an additional 20 percent. I think it is also important that those who are terminally ill can get a lump-sum payment brought forward as a way of acknowledging that their terminal illness is, in most instances, related to the service that they have given. A veteran who is entitled to a disablement pension can elect to suspend payment of that pension for a period of up to 12 months and receive a lump-sum payment equivalent to the aggregate of the pension payable at the maximum rate for the 12-month period. That was a change that was made in the select committee. I think it is an appropriate change. I think the concept of this legislation, based on the Law Commission recommendation, of having a scheme that maintains the entitlement for our older veterans and brings our new veterans into a space where there is a focus on rehabilitation is the right approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESo, if it is good for this Committee to follow the recommendations of the Law Commission in the fundamentals of this scheme, why is it that National insists on departing from the recommendations of the Law Commission in terms of cutting the benefits that are available to people who have served? It is, frankly, unacceptable to this side of the Chamber, and I had hoped that it would be unacceptable to the M\u0101ori Party, that our veterans would be denied that lump-sum payment\u2014$5,700\u2014to enable the family to meet the funeral costs of the veterans. I understand that the amendment I had moved was supported by the M\u0101ori Party. Mr Flavell will speak for himself but I understand that\u2014[Bell rung] Mr Chairman\u2014just to finish off. I will be only 1 minute. I understand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eaee27ddf9e436aa40f2770950b7df8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I will decide that. The Hon Phil Goff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f4c36d84dd346c48f12611b856b5e33\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: A very good decision, Mr Chairman. I understand that pressure was put on the M\u0101ori Party members by National that if they were not to support the Government\u2019s position on this bill, then the bill would not proceed\u2014certainly during the life of this Parliament. If that is the case, then that is quite unacceptable. I regret the fact that the M\u0101ori Party is no longer supporting what the RSA and the veterans have asked for and the Law Commission recommended, but Mr Flavell will no doubt comment on why there has been a change of heart on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party. If they had not changed their view, then the votes would have been equally 61-61 and we would have, I think, negotiated a reasonable solution for the veterans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225af82a218abf444abee7c692a4e846f4\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: We don\u2019t have 122 members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a78ab7564ea8478e8eab8cf8324fc6f4\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the calculation\u2014and the whip can confirm it\u2014was that it would have been a tied vote, if the M\u0101ori Party had supported Labour on this. [Interruption] Sixty-sixty\u2014OK. It is like 20/20 vision\u201460-60. It is regrettable that the Government has used its position to prevent a fair deal being reached for veterans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI have got just this one challenge and it might go to Mr Flavell, it might go to the National Party members, or it might go to Mr Dunne. It is a simple question. Why is it that the recommendations of the Law Commission to be a little more generous to veterans have been dropped by this Government when the cost was small, the cost was affordable, and the case that could be made for the veterans gaining entitlement to that small extra benefit was clear and overwhelmingly supported by the veterans? Why is it that in 2014, 100 years out from the start of the Great War, we could not have given that little bit of extra to the veterans. Words are cheap. It would have been much better if we could have backed up our expressions of gratitude and thanks to our veterans by giving them something, a small something, that would have made a difference for them and their families. That question is hanging there, waiting for a member of the Government, or a party supporting the Government, to answer why it was not affordable to implement the recommendation of the Law Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022c017cb2677f44e51900955d4e0932264\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c017cb2677f44e51900955d4e0932264\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tau katoa i t\u0113nei r\u0101, otir\u0101, i t\u0113nei wiki Te Wiki o Te Reo M\u0101ori. Hei t\u012Bmatanga k\u014Drero m\u0101ku me whaiwhai haere au i te k\u014Drero a te H\u014Dnore Phil Goff. Ko te ng\u0101kau, otir\u0101, ki ng\u0101 whakaaro o te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori e mea ana, me tautoko i t\u0113nei hunga i haere ki te pakanga, ki te tohe m\u014D te painga o t\u0113nei whenua. Ar\u0101 an\u014D ng\u0101 tohu kei ng\u0101 pakitara o t\u0113nei Whare P\u0101remata. Ko \u0113tahi kua haere ki te mura o te ahi, ko \u0113tahi i hoki mai, ko \u0113tahi k\u0101re i hoki mai. Ko te hunga i hoki mai, ko \u0113tahi i hoki m\u0101uiui mai, \u0101, n\u014D reira, me tautoko ka tika. \u0112ngari i roto i t\u0113nei Whare, ar\u0101 an\u014D ng\u0101 uauatanga i \u0113tahi w\u0101 m\u014D te \u0101huatanga o t\u0113nei mea o te p\u014Dti. N\u014D reira, kua riro m\u0101ku t\u0113nei w\u0101hanga o te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori e whakam\u0101rama ake, \u0101, i t\u0113nei p\u014D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us all today and indeed in this the week of the M\u0101ori language. As a means of beginning my address I will follow the tenor of the sentiments expressed by the Hon Phil Goff. The heart, and indeed the thoughts, of the M\u0101ori Party is saying that we must support this group who went to war and who were persistent for the benefit of this country. There are other symbols on the walls of this House of Parliament that reflect this. Some went to the battle front, some returned, and some did not. Of those who came back, some were sick and so it is only right that they be supported. But in this House there are other difficulties at times relating to the manner of this voting thing. So this aspect of the M\u0101ori Party will be left for me to explain carefully this evening.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EMr Chairperson, I wish to take a couple of calls, I hope, at your behest to be able to explain the M\u0101ori Party position in respect of the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill. As I said in M\u0101ori, there is no doubt in our minds that it is appropriate to support those who put their lives on the line for our country and do the best that we can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn our caucus we had some vigorous debate in respect of the Hon Phil Goff\u2019s amendment and Supplementary Order Paper 441. It was very vigorous because, of course, we are talking about people\u2019s lives, servicemen\u2019s lives, and, indeed, I suppose what happens to them after they pass away as well. In that regard we were in a position to be able to support this bill, to be able to allow it so that veterans could, in fact, gain while we are in Parliament. Who knows what happens after the end of this election. We were of the view that it was far better to make some gains now than not to allow this bill to move through the various readings. We chose, accordingly, to enter into negotiations with the Government and the Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs over points that we believed would advance the bill in its original form to something that we believed would have far bigger coverage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo in the time that I have got I want to outline some of those gains. There are about eight of them or so that I want to put on the record of this House. Firstly, the removal of the 52 percent disability criterion, which used to be 70 percent, means that from our perspective a greater number of veterans will receive the pension. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFrom our perspective, currently around 6,800 veterans receive it and we say that this will increase, according to the information that we have, by about 16,700 to 25,300 veterans. That is 6,000, now going to 25,000. We suggest that is a major and significant gain, a far wider spread to bring in a far greater catch of those who put their lives on the line. That is the first point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe second point is that a greater number of veterans will have formal recognition that they are war veterans receiving a war veterans pension. This has been a point of contention for them, and under the amendments\u2014at least the negotiations we had\u2014they will have that recognition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe third point is that the veterans pension is paid at the same rate as superannuation and is increased annually in line with this, and veterans will automatically get the community services card, which is currently income tested. Income testing will no longer be applied so, therefore, again that is a major benefit from our perspective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe fourth point is that veterans have protection for long-term hospital stays after 13 weeks. Currently, the pension is reduced to $40 after 13 weeks in hospital. Fifthly, we are also asking for a review of the Act\u2014and I think this comes to the heart of Mr Goff\u2019s discussion\u2014and associated levels of support to be written into the bill, and this has been agreed to. The period of time we are talking about is to allow it to run for 2 years and then have a review to assess the points that the Hon Phil Goff has made and indeed how the bill is going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs the sixth point, Veterans Affairs New Zealand is proposing to rewrite its standard operation procedures to direct case managers to proactively advise families of recently deceased veterans of their existence, advice and eligibility requirements, and assistance to apply for the Ministry of Social Development funeral grant, which is up to about $2,000. Although this is currently available, the uptake by veterans, from our understanding, has been relatively minimal. Personally, I think that this should be a standard operating practice anyway, but there we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThese changes will come into effect on 1 October 2014\u2014obviously not far away\u2014and therefore veterans will be able to take up the benefits of the changes and amendments in the bill. We are seeking, on top of that, formal recognition for the Malaya, Afghan, and Syrian veterans and their service, and will be progressing this through the Hon Jonathan Coleman\u2019s office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EJust to wrap up, currently veterans will be eligible for a lump-sum payment on death, although the 52 percent impairment criterion is applied. However, under the review we will aim to have this removed. If the M\u0101ori Party did not support this bill\u2014and here is the point\u2014we would suggest that over 1,600 veterans would miss out on the ability to receive a pension and the other gains that we have previously mentioned. We saw this simply as an opportunity that could be not missed out. We did, in fact, have at the very heart of our submissions and our thoughts the many veterans who are hanging out on taking up the opportunities that come from this bill and, indeed, to ensure that we captured as many people as possible into the net to allow them to access the benefits that come from this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EUnder those circumstances, although this is the path that you have already outlined, and my discussion has been to cover a fair part of the bill, these are the reasons that we as the M\u0101ori Party are supportive of the bill. We are pleased with the amendments that we have been able to negotiate with the Minister, such that it will in fact go exactly the way we want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESure, there is always more to be done\u2014there is always more to be done\u2014there is always more that can be offered up, but the 2-year review period would allow for that to be assessed at the time. In the meantime, as of 1 October, as I said, the benefits will be able to roll out to those veterans who will be hanging out on these sorts of amendments. Ka nui te mihi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5d675e07f254bfea2582a2794d2cb25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5d675e07f254bfea2582a2794d2cb25\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for the call in this Committee stage of the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill. I want to pick up on some of the points that have just been made by M\u0101ori Party member, Te Ururoa Flavell, around negotiation and how hard the M\u0101ori Party has had to work to get the concessions from this Government. What a shame that is, I think, because the evidence that the Social Services Committee heard was pretty compelling and I think that a lot of the advice that the officials gave us actually supported the full extension of these provisions. The feeling I had was that the Government members on the committee were also, at least in their hearts, supportive of the full extension of these entitlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo the fact that the M\u0101ori Party has apparently had to negotiate so hard to be able to get some gains\u2014to get us almost there but not quite there\u2014to me just leaves the question of why. Why could this Government not go all the way? Why hold out on the one point around the funeral payments on death? I just do not understand it when we have heard that it is only about $7.4 million. I do not understand why that is a point to hold out on in negotiation, when most of the people in this Chamber\u2014and, in their hearts, everyone on the select committee\u2014supported it. I do not understand why the Government is holding out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe point was made that it is not really about the money. One of the arguments brought up by this Government was that it should have been done before. That seems very weak to me. I just want to make the point that in the regulatory impact statement we actually read that 28 percent of our war veterans will pass away in the next 5 years, and that will be most of the World War II veterans. This is probably our last opportunity to deliver for those families that full recognition and this entitlement. I just cannot understand why this Government is holding out on that point when it is such a relatively small amount of money. I think it has been mentioned in this Committee that it is 0.00001 percent of total Government spending that it is holding on to. Is it out of meanness? Is it out of political pride not to have caved in to what was seen to then be an Opposition request, rather than the fact that it was the Law Commission that recommended it and that it was backed up by the Royal New Zealand Returned and Services\u2019 Association? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThis is not really about politics. This should not be about politics, and I cannot understand how it has become about politics, because it is about a just recognition. Although I am on the record around being a pacifist and not wanting to glorify war, that for me is all the more reason to be able to offer whatever support we can to our war veterans who have been sent into these horrific environments, who have had to do things that none of us would ever want to do, and who have seen things that we would never want to see. They have been harmed, whether it was physically or emotionally, and their families have also often borne the cost. We heard very moving testimonies through the select committee process from veterans as well as the children of veterans, who talked about growing up in households where the war was relived in their living rooms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EIf as a country we cannot afford the cost of acknowledging the harm that Governments have done by sending people, then that is a very clear reason not to send people. If we cannot afford to compensate them for that, then we should not be doing that. I am not going to spend very much longer on this because it has been 7 years since this was sent to the Law Commission and we definitely need to update the War Pensions Act 1954. We need to do that as quickly as possible and by the end of this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8bf1e82fe3e44cd94a74f35d376844c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8bf1e82fe3e44cd94a74f35d376844c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I listened very carefully to the explanation by M\u0101ori Party members as to why they have flip-flopped on their support for the amendment in my name, Supplementary Order Paper 441, to this Veterans\u2019 Support Bill. They had given me that undertaking to support it. I have to tell the M\u0101ori Party members that they have been duped. They have been totally hoodwinked\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a1927c9741249a39c2cade8d70dd8ad\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245da904476ff4aceab770592010b56cd\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014again by what this Government said. Let me use the first example that Te Ururoa Flavell used as to why they supported the bill. He said that they have reduced the level of disablement you need for funeral expenses from 70 percent to 52 percent. Anyone who sat on that Social Services Committee\u2014and everyone on the backbench over there was on that committee\u2014knows that that is absolutely wrong. Seventy percent of the old system is simply equivalent to 52 percent of the new system. It will not bring in one extra person for a lump-sum entitlement, yet that member from the M\u0101ori Party comes in and says \u201CLook what we\u2019ve got. We\u2019ve lowered the entitlement ratio.\u201D It is exactly\u2014exactly\u2014the same. They are being duped. They have been duped. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThen we get this other hoary old excuse that we will have a review in 2 years. Do you know what National said about the Law Commission recommendation? It said that it would not bring this in at this time. Do you know what veterans around the country told me? They said: \u201CBloody typical. They will wait until we are all dead and then they will give us the entitlement.\u201D That is what our veterans think. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI have got in my hand the regulatory impact statement that goes with this bill. What does it say? It says that the veteran population as a whole will decline by 28 percent over the next 5 years\u2014delay, delay, delay until nobody is eligible. This morning we heard the sad news that a member of A Company of the 28th M\u0101ori Battalion died yesterday. Do you know how many veterans we have left in A Company from the 28th M\u0101ori Battalion? [Interruption] No, there is just one\u2014just one\u2014left. Surely at this time we can make the gesture of saying to our veterans\u2014there is a handful left from the Second World War\u2014that we respect you, we respect what you did, and a very small gesture of appreciation is that we will meet your funeral costs on death to relieve your family of that obligation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis really is a disgrace. They will review it in 2 years. It is $7.4 million. That is all it is. Te Ururoa Flavell said: \u201COh, but they\u2019re lifting the requirement of losing the pension after 13 weeks in hospital.\u201D I asked what the cost was. It was so small that the answer is here in black and white. It says the amount is \u201Cnegligible\u201D. It probably does not even make five figures. They have given Te Ururoa Flavell the equivalent of beads and blankets\u2014it is worth nothing. It is $7.4 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fad36f4a0e34dc290836fb6c35157fd\u0022\u003EAlfred Ngaro\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you\u2019re better than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ad84fa1e09d49b18c99fc3ac7c48794\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Alfred Ngaro why it is that his Government cannot afford $7.4 million in the first year, declining by $1 million every 2 years, to honour our veterans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224933dd98be4a40ac986336f1bfcf8585\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not about that. It\u2019s a privacy decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b2128af9a6641bf94e49fef0f2bfbe2\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I want to thank Mike Sabin for his earlier compliment, but if we follow his logic\u2014that we cannot give it now because they did not get it before\u2014we would not be changing anything in this Veterans\u2019 Support Bill. If we were not to give something new to veterans today, we would not have changed the Act at all. We have changed the Act because we believe that veterans deserve more\u2014$7.4 million more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EYou know, what the Government gave to Rio Tinto would have paid the cost of giving this to the veterans for at least 4 years\u2014over 4 years; probably 5 years, because the cost is declining. But somehow Rio Tinto is more important to this crony capitalist National Government than honouring our veterans\u2014honouring our veterans not because the Labour Party said it should have been done but because the independent group set up to analyse what was going to the veterans said this is a change we should make, and because our veterans said this is a change we should make. Every one of those members in the back row over there heard veteran after veteran come in and ask for just this gesture. You know, words are cheap. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 480 in the name of the Hon Michael Woodhouse to Parts 3, 4, and 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EParts 3, 4, and 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f334a19572e140c7a276904ff6d07c23\u0022\u003EPart 6  Veteran\u2019s pension\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab1cde5eb20a4757820e88823af85ebd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab1cde5eb20a4757820e88823af85ebd\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Part 6 is in fact the part of the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill that deals with the issue of veterans pensions and lump-sum payments. This is the matter that has been canvassed by members for much of the evening, particularly by the Hon Phil Goff, who has amendments that he has proposed to this part of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIt is a pretty simple thing that in the Labour Opposition we wanted to follow the desires of the RSA and other veterans\u2019 groups to ensure that all veterans would be entitled to a veterans pension, and that it would be something that was universally available to everybody who has served our country overseas in conflict or peacekeeping situations. It is fair to say that it was not a big ask of the Government. It is anticipated to cost $7.4 million a year, and that is actually the anticipated cost for the first year only. It is an unusual provision in that as time goes on the costs actually reduce. Usually when you introduce a new provision like this the out-years are more expensive than the initial year. This is the exact opposite, so it is not a difficult thing for the Government to adopt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIn fact, after a lot of advocacy from the Hon Phil Goff the Government finally relented\u2014almost. It almost relented entirely and supported everything that Phil Goff asked for, except for one thing, and that is the provision for lump-sum payments. The argument that the Government is using is that it will not be the veterans themselves who benefit from lump-sum payments but their families. We on this side of the Chamber say that veterans\u2019 families have made a significant sacrifice themselves\u2014a different type of sacrifice from a veteran who actually goes and serves, and sees conflict, and faces battle alongside their comrades; true. It is a different type of sacrifice, but it is nevertheless a significant sacrifice for a family to have one of their own, often the breadwinner, go overseas and come home with all the impacts of seeing conflict. We particularly think about our older veterans who served in the Second World War, in Korea, in Viet Nam, and in Malaya, who saw\u2014just as our recent veterans in Afghanistan and East Timor and the Solomons did\u2014very real conflict and very real danger, and things that were traumatic and that obviously put their lives at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWe simply want to acknowledge their sacrifice and also the sacrifice of their families in sending a loved one overseas and giving up their time with them, but also sometimes having to be there, more often than not, for that family member when they come back home again. So we think it is absolutely appropriate that both veterans and their families should have the opportunity to be acknowledged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWe agree with the comment made by Melissa Lee, I think, that nobody goes overseas to serve our nation because they expect to get a pension out of it. That is not the reason they go. Of course it is not the reason that they go, but it is a way in which we can acknowledge the sacrifice that they have made. I think Melissa Lee talked about a spirit of adventure. Well, sometimes people did go with a spirit of adventure and then found that it was something a lot more than that when they actually got into the conflict zone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI think what actually drove most of our veterans to participate and to serve our nation was a sense that what they were doing was absolutely right. It was what their nation had called on them to do. They were doing it because they believed that it was in our country\u2019s interests, and they believed that it was in the interests of the people who lived in the nations that they went to and served in, and absolutely in the case of the Korean conflict. I have been to Korea myself on a parliamentary delegation and there is no doubt that the people of Korea absolutely appreciate the work and the sacrifice that was put in by New Zealand veterans over there. They did it because they believed in our security, in our region\u2019s security, and in supporting, ultimately, peace in our region and around the world, by confronting aggressive actions from other nations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThat is why they do it; we appreciate that, but there is still nothing wrong with us as a nation saying we want to acknowledge that with some additional support that goes to those people who serve us and to their families as well. It really is now at the point of absolutely penny-pinching that the Government has refused to take this final step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba68deaf680f479db5edc4a451727de7\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: How much would it be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cc9dbe98d334c0aaa6cfc7e886e639b\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: How much would it be? It is $7.4 million annually. That is what they have agreed to, and the lump-sum payments would add\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222883f9e5d759471597179cc3bd97eeb1\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what the lump-sum payment is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207680e79d0cb4e0588ac28d90357e9a2\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: That is what the lump-sum payment is; it is the value of the lump-sum payment. So it is really a tiny, tiny amount of money in the scheme of Government expenditure, and it kind of feels like the Government just does not want to do the whole thing that the Opposition has asked it to do. That is basically what it comes down to. It was not the Government\u2019s idea. It was the Opposition\u2019s idea; it was Phil Goff\u2019s idea. The Government does not want to do it because it was Labour that proposed it. The Government has come some of the way, but not the whole way. That is a shame. It is simply a shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI know that when we go and visit RSAs around our electorates and around the country, and when we talk to other veterans\u2019 groups, this is on their minds. It is what they talk about, and it is the first thing that they talk to us about. It would have been a simple thing for the Government to agree to, and it is just a shame that it has not been prepared to do that. But on this side of the Chamber we will continue to fight for those veterans and they can be assured that, should there be the inevitable change that is coming in September this year, there will be a better deal for veterans under a Labour-led Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbcd75b8eca8402ea9f6037ae86d7fbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbcd75b8eca8402ea9f6037ae86d7fbe\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to take a quick call on Part 6 of the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill, because this is the critical point of difference. There is an enormous tome of a new piece of legislation here, 99 percent of which we agree with. It is the 1 percent that we do not agree with. Before I touch on that, I want to just make reference to Te Ururoa Flavell\u2019s contribution a bit earlier. He made the big play that in his caucus they argued for a long time about this. Well, for God\u2019s sake, if you are going to do it, get the facts right. Get the facts in front of you so you are actually able to argue about what is real rather than what you are told. What he has done is to do himself a huge disservice, because not only has he argued about the wrong things but he is standing up there and stating facts that are simply not right and is basing his decision not to support this lump-sum payment on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis is about an expenditure of $7.4 million\u2014$7.4 million so that on the death of our veterans their families can receive a lump-sum payment of just $5,700. If anybody has had to prepare for a funeral, you will know that that will cover the costs of only an ordinary funeral. This is not extravagant, but it is a gesture to the families who have put up with so much while their loved ones\u2014normally, their fathers or their sons or whatever\u2014have been offshore and serving. This is $5,700 per veteran, an annual cost of $7.4 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWhen you go back and you look at some of the expenditure that this Government has committed this country to, you see that it has given $30 million to Rio Tinto. It has given $30 million to Rio Tinto. It has given $150 million to a bunch of fat-cat lawyers to sell off our assets\u2014$150 million. That could have taken us through for the next 15 or 20 years at that rate. You ask yourself whether our veterans are worth that. Of course they are\u2014of course they are. This is wrong. It is penny-pinching. It is just simply not good enough when the Government has come to the table on the other issues that we disagreed on just a few weeks ago but it has left this out. We know that the RSAs support this. They support the lump-sum payment. They tell us that when we go around and speak to them. We know that this is what the Law Commission recommended. It is not what Labour recommended; it is what the Law Commission recommended. We believe that both the Law Commission and the Returned and Services\u2019 Association are absolutely right\u2014absolutely right. This is a very small amount of money that will go an enormously long way, particularly for those World War II veterans, who are diminishing week by week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI just hope that the Government\u2014I doubt that it will, but, nevertheless, I hope\u2014sees fit to pass this, as it has the other aspects of this bill. As I say, 99 percent of this bill we agree on, but that 1 percent is important. That 1 percent is important and it will go a long way for the families of those veterans who serve us so well overseas. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022da60c1783e204f4991265a1be1655522\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da60c1783e204f4991265a1be1655522\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Last month, together with the Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs, I had the privilege of attending two ceremonies: the 63rd anniversary of the Battle of Crete and the 60th anniversary of the Battle of Monte Cassino. The true privilege of attending those two occasions was to talk to the several dozen veterans at each event; to talk to the men who had fought on Crete, who had fought at Cassino, and to be able to acknowledge to their faces our debt to that generation. Most of them are now at least 90\u2014one or two of them had reached 100 years. As I sat at those commemoration ceremonies I considered the lucky generation that we in this House represent. We are the generation that did not have to follow in our fathers\u2019 and our grandfathers\u2019 footsteps and serve in great wars overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe story of my family is very similar to many families in this House. I was very much influenced by my grandmother. She lost her elder brother in 1917 in the Great War. Even more tragically, she lost her youngest son, my dad\u2019s younger brother, aged 19, in the Solomon Islands in 1944. I think of what that generation went through and I think of the debt that we owe to those people. So when we mark the centenary year of the start of the Great War in 1914, whatever we can do within reason for our veterans, we should do. It is decent. It is common sense. It honours and respects them. Honour and respect can be in the words we say, but, more important, it can be in the small gestures that we can make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI have not invented the Supplementary Order Paper that stands in my name, but I am asking the Committee to support it. Supplementary Order Paper 441 does something very simple. In one clause, it restores the lump-sum payment on death to all of those who are eligible for the veterans pension. It is a gesture. It is what the Law Commission asked for. That is the logic of it. The Law Commission did the hard yards. It consulted with thousands of New Zealanders. It took 2 years over its work. I do not condemn it for taking 2 years; it did it thoroughly. Nobody says that this group of people did their job other than properly and thoroughly and came up with considered recommendations. So when we reject a recommendation of the Law Commission, surely there has to be a good reason for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI have been participating in this debate for 3 hours. I have asked time and again for the National Party to put one speaker up\u2014one speaker; just one speaker\u2014and give us a reason why we should be rejecting the recommendation of the Law Commission and why we should be throwing this in the face of the New Zealand RSA and the veterans when they asked us for it. Surely we owe them an explanation as to why we are denying them it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI hear from the National members, when they think that it is appropriate to take a call, that it is the expense. Well, I want to talk about the element of expense as it relates to veterans\u2019 affairs of New Zealand. I have in my hand the written answers to the estimates questions for the Budget Vote Veterans\u2019 Affairs for 2014-15. What do I find? Between 2011 and 2012 there was a cut of $8 million in expenditure on veterans\u2019 services and payments. Between 2012 and 2013 there was another cut of $9 million. In 2013 and 2014 it was a cut of $7 million. This year the Budget represents a further reduction of $11 million. In each of those years the cut to Veterans Affairs New Zealand would by itself have paid for what the Law Commission is asking for. It is not asking you to invent new money; it is asking you to slow down the cuts that you are making in payments to veterans and services to veterans so that it can give those veterans, whom we honour sincerely and gratefully, the payment that the Law Commission asked for and the RSA pleaded for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe money was already there. Each and every year the National Government has been able to cut the payment to services for veterans by more than what we are asking for in my Supplementary Order Paper. Do not tell me that we cannot afford it. The evidence is there. You would just have to reduce the cuts that you have made each year for 5 years to Vote Veterans Affairs to pay for this. I know from talking to some of my colleagues on that side of the Committee that they would dearly like to support this Supplementary Order Paper. I am not going to name them; that is unfair. I know they would like to do that because it is the right thing to do, and they recognise it is the right thing to do. I have talked to the Minister outside of the Chamber and said \u201CFor God\u2019s sake, let\u2019s have a consensus here in this Committee so that we can do the right thing for our veterans.\u201D I do not want the politics of this; I want to do the right thing for our veterans\u2014what the Law Commission said we should do, what the RSA and General Don McIver have asked for us to do, what those veterans whom we meet every week or every month in our RSAs say is the decent thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI have been round more RSAs than I would care to number, and I deeply respect the service that those people have given us, the last of the World War II veterans, the Korean War veterans, whom Melissa Lee spoke quite movingly about, and our Viet Nam veterans, whom we failed to honour when they returned from Viet Nam. Is it too much to ask this Committee to do the right thing by our veterans? It is affordable. It is justifiable. It has been recommended to this House by the body that we set up to review the Act. For heaven\u2019s sake, why will the National Government not do the right thing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI tell the M\u0101ori Party, which has switched its vote to support a mean cut to the veterans, to think again, because every reason that Te Ururoa Flavell gave us was evidence that he had been duped in his discussions with the National Government. If the M\u0101ori Party goes down screaming at this election, this will be yet one more example of why, when the crunch point comes, it has not been able to stand up for the rights of its own people. Why has the M\u0101ori Party sold out? Well, Te Ururoa Flavell said that the Government said that it will not progress this bill unless the M\u0101ori Party does sell out. That is equivalent to blackmail. That is unacceptable. It is not acceptable to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be9e008bfcb7464cbe1d68f2ffade145\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a665fbd97b947e59c8b3005aa6fe468\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: This Opposition\u2014Labour, the Greens, and New Zealand First\u2014are facilitating the passage of this bill so it can pass before the rising of the 50th Parliament. We are doing the right thing by our veterans. We are simply asking, reciprocally, for the National Government to do the right thing by supporting this amendment. If each member on that side of the Chamber fails to support that amendment, they are effectively saying that they do not put value on our veterans, not because I am saying that that payment should be made but because the official inquiry that was set up to recommend to the Government made that recommendation and because the RSA has asked for it. In their hearts, so many of the National members of Parliament on the backbench know that it is the right thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI heard the former Speaker of this House in his valedictory go out saying that he had a deep regret that he had voted against the Crimes Amendment Bill in regard to homosexual law reform. I hope there is no member of this current Parliament that goes out of Parliament saying: \u201CGod, I wish I\u2019d done the right thing by our veterans.\u201D It is not a matter of expense; it is a matter of respect. I ask the National Government and each member of the National Government to show that respect to our veterans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to the proposed amendment set out in in Supplementary Order Paper 480 in the name of the Hon Michael Woodhouse to clause 161(1) be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003Ereplace \u201Csection 148(1)\u201D with \u201Csection 147A\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aeea5058f5aa42faa7996ef48b9f3d90\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000595\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 480 in the name of the Hon Michael Woodhouse to Part 6 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000596\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2d9bd087c2b4229a46ea7df9e82dd72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2d9bd087c2b4229a46ea7df9e82dd72\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just remind members that votes are taken in silence, please. The amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 441 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to clause 148 is out of order because it is inconsistent with a previous decision of the Committee. The amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 452 in the name of Andrew Williams to clause 148 is out of order because it is inconsistent with a previous decision of the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 441 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to clause 149 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b0d4043ce252486fa3a68844334b6570\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000599\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 452 in the name of Andrew Williams to Part 6 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bb7eeb2f2ba546149b114482ea764c88\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000600\u0022\u003EPart 6 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d679be29be4649ef864bc53d9e646789\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d679be29be4649ef864bc53d9e646789\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for Parts 7, 8, and 9, and the title and commencement to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002244b38a157352454193299b76717cc285\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244b38a157352454193299b76717cc285\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: There are also schedules 1 to 4. Do you include those as well? [Interruption] Leave is sought for Parts 7, 8, and 9, schedules 1 to 4, and clauses 1 and 2 to be taken as one question. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b6da7ddfabb4a7885b2c5a932e81015\u0022\u003EParts 7 to 9, schedules 1 to 4, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000604\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 480 in the name of the Hon Michael Woodhouse to Parts 7, 8, and 9, schedules 1, 2, and 4, and clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000605\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000606\u0022\u003EParts 7 to 9, schedules 1 to 4, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000607\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000608\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000609\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Land Transport Amendment Bill with amendment and the Veterans\u2019 Support Bill with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000610\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002214d35e8e02974a40b9897f4afa3b2504\u0022\u003ESubordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b572b4247da426d9b51adcb5d0e9e65\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00220a76eeec347449ae99a478373e716169\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a76eeec347449ae99a478373e716169\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General) on behalf of the Leader of the House:\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill (No 3) be now read a first time. I nominate the Regulations Review Committee to consider the bill. Given that from the next Parliament future subordinate legislation bills will be sent to the Regulations Review Committee without debate in the House, I propose to start this new procedure early with this year\u2019s bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc9431c566ef4f82a1e1ae742b664344\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc9431c566ef4f82a1e1ae742b664344\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Although the Attorney-General wishes that this Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill (No 3) be referred to the select committee without debate, which I would normally concur with, as chair of the Regulations Review Committee I would like to explain to the public just what this does and what this bill means. The process that the Attorney-General just outlined has not arrived at this point without a deal of history and without a deal of consideration by successive Governments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis is the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill (No 3). Last year the Regulations Review Committee considered the equivalent but No. 2 bill. It was referred to the Regulations Review Committee, as it would be as a matter of procedure and as is normally the case. What I would like to do, at the outset, is commend the Government for bringing it to the attention of the Regulations Review Committee in a timely manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWe had complained previously, as the Regulations Review Committee, to the Government that it did not give sufficient time for the committee to consider the subordinate legislation and the various expiry dates within it in 2012. So we were very pleased to see and to be able to report, in our recent report of the activities of 2013, that last year the Government did act on the recommendation of the Regulations Review Committee and introduced the bill on 29 July\u20141 month earlier than the equivalent bill in 2012. On 22 July this year it has done so again and presented it earlier than previously. That is to be commended. The only thing that gets in the way of this proceeding very quickly is in fact the big democratic right that all citizens have, and that is to elect a new Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis is important stuff. I do not want to talk about this simply because every Parliament needs to have its process work\u2014and that seems to be me in the current Parliament\u2014but because it is important. I am not a trained lawyer, but I am passionate about this Parliament and particularly the Government of any hue doing its business in a way that is constitutionally sound, that is legally sustainable, and that observes proper and due process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI want to go back to one example that some people in this House might remember. It is one of those things that stuck in my memory as a young person in 1982 when I was, I think, convenor of the Combined State Unions in Auckland, the Auckland region of the Combined State Unions. Some people may remember that there was, in 1982, inflicted upon working people in this country a wage and price freeze\u2014a wage and price freeze\u2014inflicted by the Muldoon Government. That was done by regulation. Regulation is subordinate legislation. That is what this bill is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESubordinate legislation is legislation that is not primary legislation. It is not legislation passed by Parliament that can have debate and scrutiny. Delegated or subordinate legislation are the rules and regulations that are usually provided to make sure that the administration of legislation is smooth and operates effectively and efficiently. But back in 1982 Muldoon decided to bring down a wage and price freeze. There were to be no wage increases and no price increases, by regulation. The Combined State Unions took that case against the State Services Coordinating Committee, and on appeal it became very clear from the Court of Appeal\u2019s judgment that the Act the regulations were being promulgated under was the Economic Stabilisation Act 1948\u2014a pretty iniquitous piece of legislation on its own merits, and one that stayed with us for a long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EMuldoon had seen fit to cancel all wage increases and price increases\u2014though somehow that did not quite work\u2014despite the fact that in the Public Service wage increases were set by quite different primary legislation, by proper legislation that was considered by the whole Parliament. On that basis the Combined State Unions took the State Services Coordinating Committee, as it was\u2014it would now be the State Services Commission\u2014to court and in fact won. So the wage-fixing procedures in the State sector that came about under separate legislation could not be overridden by regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThat is the purpose of this scrutiny: to make sure that the executive, the Government, is not bringing in regulations that override primary legislation passed by this Parliament. It is not that complicated. It is as clear as that. This Parliament is sovereign; the executive runs the country according to the legislation that this Parliament passes. It does not have the right constitutionally or legally to promote regulation that overrides primary legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWhen Muldoon realised that he had lost that case, it took him about 1 month to change the law. Because of the majority he had in the House at that time\u2014notwithstanding Marilyn Waring\u2019s impact on it later in that term\u2014under a first-past-the-post system, he was able to ram through amending legislation so that the wage and price freeze was able to be maintained by primary legislation and not by dodgy, overriding regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThat process then resulted in changes to the Standing Orders taking effect in 1986 and Parliament\u2019s establishment of the Regulations Review Committee. That is why we end up where we are now. I would like to give thanks for all of that information, as well as my own recollections of the event. I remember huge marches up Queen Street in Auckland against the wage and price freeze, and myself and Bill Andersen making speeches at those rallies against the wage and price freeze. That is how old I am. [Interruption] Bill Andersen, yes. [Interruption] Oh, right, Bill Andersen, as a representative of the Federation of Labour as it was at that time, and myself as a representative of the local Combined State Unions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe point of this is that it is right and proper that this bill be sent to the Regulations Review Committee. It is the only bill that goes to the Regulations Review Committee. It is right and proper that it is sent there for proper scrutiny, because what it does is it validates and confirms regulations that would otherwise expire or fall to pieces if this bill was not passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWhat the Regulations Review Committee will now do is take this bill, write to all the departments and ministries that are affected by the different pieces of legislation and the orders that are in this bill, and ask why those pieces of regulation and subordinate legislation need to be confirmed and validated in this way. So there is some scrutiny, there is some justification, and it is done properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBut just before I finish, I want to acknowledge Justice McGrath, who drew my attention to that episode of the wage and price freeze in the 1980s in the introduction to this very fine book Subordinate Legislation in New Zealand by our very own parliamentary staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Regulations Review Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ae54312079344519965f74f0b317cd0\u0022\u003EPrivilege\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ce8fcc8d39a481c9e26741fccf4c5ac\u0022\u003EConsideration of Report of Privileges Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002274bb595840b0489a82f078d1e3f6b5f7\u0022\u003EQuestion of Privilege Regarding Use of Intrusive Powers Within the Parliamentary Precinct\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00224e344ed36856422f99276843bd9c0505\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e344ed36856422f99276843bd9c0505\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of the report of the Privileges Committee on the question of privilege regarding the use of intrusive powers within the parliamentary precinct, and that the protocol for release of information from parliamentary information and security systems be adopted and brought into effect at a time to be determined by the Speaker. I do not think I need spend too much time on this excellent report given that we have previously debated the first part of the Privileges Committee\u2019s report into a question of privilege arising from the use of intrusive powers within the parliamentary precinct. I remind the House that in the first report the committee\u2019s function was not necessarily to apportion blame for the release of various information in a way that seemed to us on the committee to be haphazard and somewhat ad hoc. Rather, it was to try to gain a clear understanding of the facts in that situation\u2014what information was managed by the Parliamentary Service, in whose interests, how it came it be disclosed, and what procedures were in place to prevent its misuse. So what this report does is focus on where to from here. It sets out a number of principles for the release of information held by the Parliamentary Service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs the Attorney-General, I have a particular interest in the matter of privilege as it relates to the separation of powers. I am a member of Parliament, but I am also a member of the executive and have the Attorney-General\u2019s role as protector of the judiciary. To that, we can now add that in my work as chair of this committee I have continued the Attorney-General\u2019s ancient role as defender of the fourth estate and of the important work the media does in bringing transparency and accountability to the proceedings of our democracy. I say this, of course, without any inference that the media should reciprocate this affection while I am out campaigning in the closely fought battle for the marginal seat of Rongotai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAfter the preliminary comments, we come to the heart of the report, which is part 3 on page 10. That report sets out four key principles regarding information on the parliamentary server. They are these\u2014and it is very important to spell them out. Firstly: \u201CThere should be a presumption that information held on parliamentary information and security systems should not be released.\u201D Secondly: \u201CIndividual members should retain complete control over the release of any information that relates to them. That is, material relating to individual members should only be released where that member specifically agrees to its release.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe third key principle related to journalists: \u201CJournalists working in the parliamentary precinct should retain complete control over the release of any information that relates to them. That is, material relating to a journalist or group of journalists who work in the parliamentary precinct should\u201D be covered. And I reiterate this important point, because it was lost sight of in the eagerness to investigate the suspected leak last year, so it is a very important principle. We must, whether we are members of the executive or members of this House, remember at all times that we have a press gallery in Parliament so that they can keep an eye on us, not so that we can keep an eye on them. The final principle is: \u201CFor information requests that do not relate to an individual member, the Speaker of the House of Representatives should be the ultimate decision-maker.\u201D We had quite a lengthy discussion about the role of the Speaker in determining these important matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo these principles are, of course, not necessarily absolute. Ministers have extensive and necessary obligations to disclose official information\u2014for example, in response to requests under the Official Information Act\u2014but what the principles do is form the basis of the protocol for the release of information from the parliamentary information, communications, and the security systems. A key part of the protocol is that no distinction should necessarily be made on the supposed nature of the information. A lot of energy was expended by parties over the course of the original investigation, giving rise to this report, and, in our subsequent inquiry, trying to parse the fine distinctions between data and metadata. So the protocol, which is appended to the report\u2014and I acknowledge the tremendous help of the Clerk of the House in getting to this stage\u2014I hope will be accepted by the House and will be able to come into force just as soon as possible, because I do think it clarifies what turned out to be an utterly unsatisfactory situation, and, as I say, we investigated the facts very closely in our first report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI think that is all I need necessarily say about the protocol. There was a second recommendation, which I need not spend a lot of time on. The second one was that we recommend that the Government update the Cabinet Manual to reflect that where an inquiry is established under the Inquiries Act, the exercise of powers in relation to members of Parliament and the parliamentary agencies will require recognition of parliamentary privilege, and that the Government develop some standard terms of reference for use in any inquiry when it seems or appears that powers may be exercised in relation to members and the parliamentary agencies. I think we need that, given that there will from time to time be inquiries set up under the Inquiries Act 2013 and we do not want to get into the unhappy situation that we found ourselves in, in 2012-13.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI thank all the members who served on the committee. I think we have reached a very good place and everyone worked very hard on the report not just for members of Parliament but for members of the press gallery so that we have got some clarity going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d019900c60d94c14b17596347f0c3bd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d019900c60d94c14b17596347f0c3bd2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E While we thank the people who assisted the Privileges Committee, could I make mention of Debra Angus and Meipara Poata. Debra Angus and Meipara have provided assistance to various committees over the years. Actually, when you come to these issues, which are arcane in terms of the constitutional principles at large, Debra Angus, I think, is probably one of the experts in the Commonwealth. I particularly value the advice that we get from her and the assistance to the committee that we get. It is interesting that some of the reports that we have done recently have turned up being quoted in reports of other Commonwealth Parliaments around the world, particularly in relation to our questions concerning parliamentary privilege.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhat caused this inquiry was something that, really, it would be hard to script in one of those old silent movies, the Keystone Cops. It was the report that went wrong into the report that went wrong. The original report was that of Rebecca Kitteridge into things that went wrong at the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) and concerning those affairs of State, which I do not want to make light of because they were serious affairs. It then turned out that that report was leaked to the media. We all know that it was leaked by the Hon Peter Dunne. We note that that is not because of admission; it is just that he has refused to deny it. He lost his ministerial portfolios\u2014for a very brief period, because the Prime Minister thought he might need him to form a future Government, I think was the reason. So he had, effectively, a very short time suspended as a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe then had, as a consequence of the leak that was never proven because the Prime Minister refused to reach a conclusion on all the evidence that it had been leaked by Peter Dunne, the incident of the manner of the inquiry into the unauthorised release of information relating to the GCSB compliance review report\u2014i.e., this is the inquiry into the leaked report by Rebecca Kitteridge. This inquiry was by Mr Henry, and Mr Henry and those who assisted him managed to get released to them things that should not have been released. Those included documents relating to the movements of members of the gallery, notably Andrea Vance, and copies of phone records, which indicated who was phoning who.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225167ccb1b65b45889ace5dc0cb01c20e\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Who was phoning whom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edea39e375af4bc6a30ada673402f001\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Whom. Thank you. The finest contribution from Mr Hayes! Knowing Mr Hayes as I do, I will go and check that one afterwards. I wish him well in the next stage of his career.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIt then transpired that the Henry report did not even use the Official Information Act, which could have actually been quite useful for getting information from the ministerial hard drive as to whether the ministerial hard drive was used for communications with the press, which would probably have been disclosable under the Official Information Act. Actually, we still have not had a final decision on that from the Ombudsman; it is so long after the event that it has become a bit farcical. But not having used the Official Information Act to get what was probably official information under the Official Information Act because it was ministerial information, I do not think it is permissible for a Minister to claim that they did something on a ministerial hard drive and then, because it is inconvenient for them that it proved they leaked a document, claim that it should not be disclosed under the Official Information Act. But in any event that is not the route that Mr Henry took. He managed to convince Parliamentary Service to release information that ought not to have been released, and then we had the hullabaloo about the release of both information of members of Parliament and information that should have been kept confidential for the press.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to make the fundamental point that the reason that we do this is not actually to serve our own interests. It is to protect democracy. One of the things that are very important in this Parliament is that members of Parliament can go about their business. They can receive information confidentially from constituents. They can, where appropriate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022744c076273b64bfdab4722da277d902f\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Or journalists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c4eec0a92564353a05928fbbc583bff\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. They could receive the information confidentially from journalists. They can receive information confidentially from anybody, and that ought to be their information to disclose, unless it is information that they hold as Ministers within the Official Information Act or the ambit of the Official Information Act. It is important that that be retained because that is actually one of the mechanisms by which we protect, in appropriate cases, the anonymity of people who are bringing us information\u2014to encourage them to do so\u2014through the processes that we have, including the privilege that we have in Parliament to actually say things, even if they attack the interests of the wealthy and might in ordinary circumstance be suppressed because of the risk of a defamation suit at the behest of people who feel that they do not want their reputation undermined, even if it is a fair undermining of their reputation. Some people have got very deep pockets and go to extraordinary lengths to protect their position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo one of the roles of this Parliament is to protect the cleanliness of democracy by being transparent about things that go wrong, and that is what this actually relates to. If the information that comes to members of Parliament can be obtained and given to somebody else, well, it is less likely that information will come to us. Similarly, the role of the press is to work around this place and find out where things are going wrong. Sometimes that is through disclosures by members of Parliament. Sometimes those disclosures are not to the liking of their own political parties, but, none the less, that is one of the things that happen in democracy. The role of the media to try to winnow those things out and encourage people to talk about things that perhaps should not be happening within political parties from time to time is a very proper role of the press gallery, and the media ought not to have the confidentiality of their communications, which are held on parliamentary systems or where they walk around the building, able to be scrutinised on the basis of the swipe card records that are held by computer systems as a consequence of when we swipe through electronic locks as we go from one part of the building to other parts of the building. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo it is for those reasons that the Speaker referred these issues to the Privileges Committee. The Privileges Committee has come up with a series of recommendations that we agree on unanimously across Parliament, which is fantastic. All of the areas of disagreement were worked through by the members of the committee so that we got to agreement, and we all agreed in respect of the likes of that swipe card information, which really would not have been available to be collected a few years ago. It was only when we had these electronic security systems and the computer systems to keep records of those over time that we could have the sort of information that can establish patterns. Similarly, a lot of the stuff that is collected on emails would not have been in written communications in earlier years, and the phone records, which are now so detailed, would not have been available years ago either. You would have just picked up the phone and there would not have been an electronic record of the numbers that were being phoned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat sort of information is now collected for different reasons, but it ought not to be automatically disclosed, so we make the presumption that this sort of information should not be released and that individual members should retain complete control over this. We discussed the issue as to whether that should be something that could be divulged to whips of parties, and we all agreed that it ought not to be. It ought to be the preserve of individual members of Parliament. In respect of journalists, again, we were absolutely clear that they ought to be in a similar position and should retain control over the information that affects them. That would not stop the Official Information Act release of ministerial information that showed dealings with a journalist, because that is actually disclosable under the Official Information Act. In respect of other information, the Speaker is delegated to do it, and we trust the Speaker to do that well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI do not think I will say anything more than that. I think that this is a good report. These things, as I say, are not actually for the protection of individual members; they are to keep this place functioning for the good of democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022 data-id=\u00229eb4a831d8a140dabb516dc0a8374abc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229eb4a831d8a140dabb516dc0a8374abc\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is 1 year now since the Speaker ruled on a question of privilege raised by the Green Party. The issues involved the exercise of intrusive powers against members and the release of information from parliamentary information and security systems. The particular incident involved the release of information to the Henry inquiry that was held on parliamentary information systems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThe Privileges Committee was asked neither to investigate the matter as a contempt of privilege nor to determine who was responsible for the release. This was a mistake. The resulting terms of reference made it inevitable that certain issues would never come to light, so the result was always going to be partially unsatisfactory. The committee was not tasked with finding who leaked the Kitteridge report, so the public is none the wiser on the facts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EOur new wisdom lies in a blinding clarity over the dangers of taking constitutional principles for granted, even as weak as ours are. Consider the background. The Kitteridge report into the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) was leaked by a member of Parliament, so the Prime Minister ordered another inquiry to identify the leaker. The Henry inquiry failed to do that, succeeding, rather, in racking up a spellbinding series of errors all of its own. We like to characterise ourselves as a decent and casual people who do politics in a decent and casual way. That is fine as far as it goes. It is when things go wrong that we regret the lack of guidelines, whether it is deregulation and Pike River, or an invertebrate constitution in the Henry report. We are one of only three countries that lack a written constitution, and we probably have the least-developed mechanism in place to compensate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThe mistakes of the Henry inquiry were largely those of individuals\u2014an excessive zeal for the task, reflecting hubristic youth; a callous indifference from the inquiry leadership to procedural practice, and an emerging cult of prime ministerial dictate. These kinds of problems can usually be neutralised in other countries by constitutional protection. Without it, they can be exacerbated and even run amok. That is the lesson of the Henry inquiry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThe committee\u2019s formal task was to examine the incidents involving the release of information from parliamentary information and security systems, and a more general issue of appropriate principles for access to, and the release of, information from parliamentary information and security systems\u2014in other words, find no individual guilt but find out what went wrong and craft a mechanism for ensuring it can never happen again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EA comment on process. The Green Party was dissatisfied with the committee\u2019s decision not to have the Prime Minister or the Speaker appear. As the Minister responsible for the GCSB, Mr Key initiated the inquiry. He appointed the co-commissioners. He was consulted over the terms of reference and choice of inquiry, and publicly released the report. He acknowledged ministerial responsibility for the inquiry. In this exercise Mr Key formed the apex of the executive branch of Government. For his part, the Speaker, being responsible for Parliamentary Service, formed the apex of the legislative branch in the matter. He too bore primary responsibility for certain aspects of the inquiry. It defies logic that the Privileges Committee, exploring the shortcomings of an inquiry in which the two members of Parliament who bore primary responsibility for it do not testify, could perform the job entrusted to it, with some irony, by the Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThen there are the findings of fact, such as they are. The evidence gathered at the hearings revealed a series of avoidable errors, political or procedural, by virtually every individual who was directly involved in the Henry inquiry. First, the Prime Minister decides a ministerial inquiry should be set up. He appoints the co-commissioners, is consulted over the terms of reference and choice of investigator, receives the report, and makes it public. He acknowledges that he has ministerial responsibility, yet his only engagement in his own inquiry is to declare that he expects everyone else to cooperate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ESecond, the chief executive officer of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet is a co-commissioner of the inquiry. The chief executive officer draws up the terms, in consultation with the Prime Minister, and is actively engaged in the inquiry, yet he is one of the suspects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221393ec7a3d164e0db8b99a678ceea9ef\u0022\u003EHon Christopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Focus on the report and the protocol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e6cd608f53e45c8a0905f7bb3900a13\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM\u003C/span\u003E: I am requested by the Attorney-General to focus on the report and the protocol. I will do so when I have completed my criticism of the process. Third, the chief executive officer then seconds a staffer to the inquiry. The staffer acts only under the supervision of the investigator, yet he exercises personal freedom in visiting Parliamentary Service on his own initiative, at third-tier level, thereby undermining the authority of the general manager of that body.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EFourth, the inquirer adopts the belief that he is free to ask for any information he deems necessary without considering whether its release is constitutionally appropriate. He leaves it to the recipient of the request to determine constitutional propriety. He neither receives nor seeks guidance on the constitutional and procedural requirements and constraints pertaining to the operation of a ministerial inquiry. He displays a general indifference before the committee to the importance of constitutional integrity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EFifth, the main recipient of the request, the General Manager of Parliamentary Service, has doubts about releasing information on a Minister and journalist\u2019s communication plus their parliamentary records, yet he feels compelled not to second-guess the requests because of their security implications. The material does not involve issues of national security but, rather, domestic politics, which should have heightened, not diminished, those concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ESixth, the chief executive of the Prime Minister\u2019s office becomes engaged. He takes it upon himself to authorise Parliamentary Service to release data pertaining to Ministers and journalists. He does this on the basis that the terms of reference have been made public and that the Prime Minister has made it clear he expects Ministers to cooperate with the inquiry. In fact, there is no cause for him to become involved in the inquiry at all, given it had been commissioned by the head of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ESeventh, the co-commissioners harbour uncertainty over the particular status of one Minister, who has been given the report in the capacity as a coalition party leader, but is subsequently expected to cooperate as a Cabinet Minister. This blurs further the distinction between his role as a member of the executive, as a Government Minister, and a member of the legislature as a member of Parliament. No one appears to care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EEighth, no official involved, whether Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet or the Prime Minister\u2019s office, appears to acknowledge that request for data pertaining to communication between a Minister and a journalist unavoidably means obtaining information from a journalist. Refusal to acknowledge this is strange. In the hearings the most senior officials in the land seemed bemused by this self-evident fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ENinth, the information platforms maintained for Ministerial Services and Parliamentary Service become operationally merged in late 2011 for reasons of efficiency. This appears not to bother the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, the Prime Minister\u2019s office, or the inquirer. Constitutional separation of powers appears not to be an issue of concern to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThe sloppy operation of the Henry inquiry rests on a series of individual misjudgments. They derive from systemic failings of our governmental system. The first is the merged information platform between Parliamentary Service and Ministerial Services, which clouds the already opaque distinction between executive and legislature in New Zealand. The second is a governmental culture that has developed that whatever the Prime Minister wishes to occur must occur. These are our criticisms of the inquiry, both process and substance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EOn a more positive note, the protocol itself that the committee has submitted to the House is a very sound one and should serve as a mechanism that we were seeking to ensure that the above mistakes and acts of executive hubris can never occur again. I commend the protocol to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb5aa6a0538743579303def052580000\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb5aa6a0538743579303def052580000\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am sure that my colleague Mr O\u2019Rourke will speak tomorrow when we return to this matter\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and it is peak viewing time, that is right. It is always popular, the slot immediately before 10 o\u2019clock. I rise to speak in support of the report. I want to acknowledge all of the staff who were involved in producing it\u2014the Clerk of the House, Debra Angus, and also Meipara Poata, the clerk of the Privileges Committee\u2014and thank them for the assistance we were provided with, which was excellent throughout. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis comes to us as a result of a shambolic episode in the way in which this Government has operated in terms of the activities of the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB). Let us not forget at the core of this lies illegal spying on New Zealanders. That is something that is very serious and something that the current Government would wish that we stopped talking about, but it remains a blot on this Government that it has had a report into that and that the law has been changed in such a way that, in fact, the likelihood of it occurring again has not changed. On top of that, we then had the question of the leaking of this report and, to this day, New Zealanders do not know for sure who it was who leaked the report. One or two of us have suspicions about who it might have been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b07551df1e69495b930b0e89cdf77261\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231ec00698f404c71840140933be43e8d\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is actually the Hon Peter Dunne, because he has not ruled it out. But more to the point, as Kennedy Graham was just saying, this huge process that we have gone through was set up because the Prime Minister said he was going to get to the bottom of who leaked a sensitive report about one of our security agencies, and yet he dropped it because he did not want to have to acknowledge that it was one of his own Ministers, someone whom he has now reappointed to a role as a Minister to prop up this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2014072271420705e7ae4cb49739fa0e38b78f5e000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022004c5e4ee07f4f51bc294f72ab28c61f\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 22 JULY 2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b75c3c37cf9e4e6c9c767b16fa08b2b1\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 23 July 2014)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002286f4ebc826384934ad5bcdb687214d4d\u0022\u003EPrivilege\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d4ae874ddca54dc6971e9a85c0d63edd\u0022\u003EConsideration of Report of Privileges Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202baeadfc3b047bd9e5a1eee5c3d3c04\u0022\u003EQuestion of Privilege Regarding Use of Intrusive Powers Within the Parliamentary Precinct\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000006\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002267cc12218fc64b0e8abc909019e8ad19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267cc12218fc64b0e8abc909019e8ad19\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Just to recap, as I began briefly last night, we are debating here a report that has arisen from one of the most shambolic episodes this current Government has been involved in: the leaking of a report into the activities of the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB). As I said last night, to this day New Zealanders do not know for sure who it is who leaked that confidential report, despite being given assurances by the Prime Minister, John Key, that the Government would find that out and that he would get to the bottom of that. The reason New Zealanders do not know for sure is that the person who has been identified as the most likely source of that, the Hon Peter Dunne, refuses to admit it, and the Prime Minister, John Key, has refused to follow up that matter in the way that he would have been expected to do by most New Zealanders. On this side of the House we find that greatly regrettable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat then followed was an investigation into the leaking of the report that in itself was an ongoing shambles. It involved the provision of information that should not have been given to the inquiry led by David Henry. It was an inquiry set up with terms of reference developed by the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet and the GCSB, with John Key as Prime Minister. Perhaps somewhat unsurprisingly, given that mandate, the inquiry was able to get a lot of information that, as the Privileges Committee has worked through these questions, we have been deeply concerned that they were able to get. But we should not leave the matter of how this inquiry came about, how the terms of reference were written, and the exertion of power in this case by the executive. Those matters were ones that the Prime Minister and his chief of staff should have been considering. There is no doubt in my mind that the fact that this inquiry was set up by John Key is one of the factors that led to information being released that should not have been released, because the power of the executive was being used in that way. I will come back to that point in a moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo with that as the background, what we have before us today is a thorough consideration of the outcome of this shambolic set of events, and that has turned into something useful. I do want to acknowledge Mr Finlayson as the chair of the Privileges Committee. He briefly left the Chamber last night as I got up to speak. I am sure those two events were totally unrelated. I was not able, at the time that I was giving thanks to the various staff members and other members of the Privileges Committee, to acknowledge Mr Finlayson for his role in chairing the meeting. He occasionally allowed me to speak\u2014only briefly and only on matters that were wholly relevant to the report\u2014and I thank him for his chairing of the committee and his shepherding of this report through to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI think it is important when we look at the report that we acknowledge a couple of things. The first is that the committee expresses in the report our grave concern at the lack of regard of those involved in this situation for the separation of the executive from Parliament. That is a very important principle that we are protecting today in the protocol that will be passed as part of this report. It does not matter which party is in power in terms of the importance of that separation, but what was drawn out was that the decisions about the release of information in this inquiry process drew out the fact that there was now a blurring of lines between the executive and Parliament. Although the question of who should have access to that information is not an easy one to resolve, as the report says, there is no doubt in the mind of this committee and in my mind that that cannot be the prerogative of the chief executive of the Parliamentary Service or, indeed, the chief executive of any other department. As the committee says in its report, we are troubled that this incident arose as it did, because there are protocols in place about the release of information, particularly involving the SIS, and we will come to that in the next item of business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt does seem peculiar to me, and it did to the committee, that this information was ultimately released as a result of the say-so of the executive branch of the Government. It was, in fact, ultimately John Key\u2019s chief of staff, Wayne Eagleson, who was the person on whom reliance was placed for whether it was OK to release information. I do want to put on record that the then head of the Parliamentary Service, Geoff Thorn, actually refused to release information multiple times because he felt that that was not something he had the power to do, and it was only from Mr Eagleson\u2019s intervention that he then did release the information. This is relevant to this report, because that is what lies at the heart, and the Privileges Committee has said that in our report: the concern that we need to have much clearer protocols in place to ensure there is separation between the executive and Parliament on these matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo the main substance of our report is the drafting and release of a protocol for the release of information. As Minister Finlayson said in his speech, there are key principles that underlie that. The most important of those for me as a member of Parliament is that we, as members of Parliament, retain complete control over information that relates to us. It has been said by other speakers in this debate that we do a number of different jobs as members of Parliament relating to individuals in the community and relating to other people inside these precincts that are not and should not be released unless we say it is OK. There is an element of privacy. There is a question of the constitutional role that we play as members of Parliament and that can be compromised if we do not have the kind of protocol that is here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe second core element of the key principles is that journalists working in the parliamentary precincts should also have that level of control. It is true we share this environment as a working space, but journalists have certain obligations and roles in our society that need to be protected, and they were compromised in this incident. The fact that swipe card information relating to a journalist was released is wrong. It compromises the ability of the fourth estate to do its job, and it should never have happened. Under this protocol, in the future, it will not happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe key feature of the protocol is written consent from affected individuals, and that is something that we are very pleased to see in there. I do want to make the point before I finish that, of course, disclosure of information can be compelled by law through the Official Information Act, in particular, and also through the Inquiries Act. That is as it should be, particularly because official information relates to the work of Ministers of the executive, and there are plenty of clauses within the Official Information Act that ensure that things can be withheld if they need to be, but that is the role of Ministers exercising their executive function. What this protocol protects is the rights of members of Parliament and those working in this complex to be able to know that their information is held securely. This is a very good report, I believe, from the Privileges Committee. I welcome the fact that the protocol has widespread support across the House, and I look forward to the Speaker signing up to the protocol, as is envisaged here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9b4b243fa48465bba78b9fd02b0559f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9b4b243fa48465bba78b9fd02b0559f\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First considers the Privileges Committee report in this case to be of the highest importance. The recommendations are significant and go to the heart of our democracy. The recommendations are that the House adopt the protocol for release of information from parliamentary information and security systems; that the Cabinet Manual be updated to reflect that where an inquiry is established under the Inquiries Act 2013, the exercise of powers in relation to members of Parliament and the parliamentary agencies will require recognition of parliamentary privilege; and that standard terms of reference be developed for use in any inquiry where it appears that the powers may be exercised in relation to members and the parliamentary agencies. So those are the three recommendations we are here to consider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EAs we know, the report stems from the letter Russel Norman sent to the Speaker on 11 July 2013, which was later ruled by the Speaker to raise serious issues surrounding privilege. The letter was in relation to the release of information that was held on parliamentary information systems for the inquiry into the unauthorised release of information relating to the Review of Compliance at the Government Communications Security Bureau report. That leak was of the Kitteridge report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe committee was not asked to determine who was responsible for the leak or treat the matter as a contempt of privilege. Actually, it was hardly necessary to do so. There is no doubt in my mind that the person who leaked the report was Peter Dunne. I take no pleasure in saying so, but it needs to be said. He has never really denied it. He has equivocated and obfuscated. In my opinion, he has never really been very honest about it. That is a sad way to end a distinguished parliamentary career. Of course, that will be up to the people of \u014Chariu. Let us hope that they see their responsibility to do the right thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe Privileges Committee presented an interim report in December 2013, which highlighted important issues about protecting the privileges and immunities of the House, freedom of speech of members, and Parliaments ability to maintain control within its precinct. The main consideration was, firstly, the issue of who should have access to parliamentary information and security systems and when, which goes to the heart of parliamentary privileges. The role of the media as an essential part of an open and transparent democracy was also of course involved. Secondly, the other issue raised was that information from the systems was more easily accessed through a request from the executive than it would have been had the New Zealand Police been investigating a criminal act. The need for a comprehensive protocol was pretty obvious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First fully supports the principles to guide the release of information, especially the presumption that any information held on parliamentary information and security systems should not be released. We think it is fundamental that individual members should retain complete control over information that relates directly to them, unless they give clear and specific written consent. How on earth could members of Parliament operate effectively otherwise? They must never be in a position of having to worry about what might be released when they should have complete control and permit release only with specific consideration and consent. I think that is extremely basic and very important, as otherwise the work of MPs would become almost impossible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe media who work in the precinct should also retain complete control over information that relates to them, and it should be released only with their specific authorisation. Any information that does not relate to a specific member will be dealt with by the Speaker of the House of Representatives as the ultimate decision maker. That seems to be perfectly appropriate. We agree that the two underlying and overarching protocols and principles regarding the release of information are the requirement for written consent from the affected individual or party prior to the release of information in any circumstances or the disclosure of information being required by the operation of law, but not in respect of requests under the Official Information Act or Privacy Act. In conclusion, New Zealand First fully supports the committee\u2019s recommendations, which I outlined at the beginning of this speech and, in particular, that the House adopt the protocol for release of information from parliamentary information and security systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002212f55991822a49af8cdf9d28f1049df2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212f55991822a49af8cdf9d28f1049df2\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E It is impossible to consider this report into the use of intrusive powers within the parliamentary precinct without considering the context of how this all came about and why we are here having this debate. We are here having this debate effectively because a Minister of the Crown was accused of releasing a report and in the process of investigating that accusation a whole lot of files were accessed, including phone logs, email logs, and so on. The question arises as to whether or not that was appropriate. It related to a journalist within the parliamentary complex and it related to a Minister, and that raised the wider issue of members of Parliament and the information held by members of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI want to make a clear distinction at this point, though, between a Minister and a member of Parliament, and I think we should never forget that there is a clear distinction there. A Minister is covered by the Official Information Act, and the information that they hold in their ministerial capacity is public information covered by the Official Information Act, with all of the rules that govern that. There are very clear processes around that. Members of Parliament are not covered by the Official Information Act, nor are journalists who work in the parliamentary complex or many of the other staff who work in the parliamentary complex. The reason that I make that distinction is very important. Peter Dunne, who was the Minister accused of leaking the report, tried to make a distinction, during the Privileges Committee inquiry, between his personal email account\u2014I do not know whether it was a Gmail account or whatever\u2014his parliamentary email account, and his ministerial email account. He argued that when he was sending any emails using his Parliament email account, he was doing so in his capacity as a member of Parliament, and that when sending any emails using his ministerial email account, he was doing so in his capacity as a Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe reality is that the distinction is not that clear. It is not the means of the transmission of the communication that matters; it is the communication itself. So if it is ministerial information\u2014i.e., it is public information\u2014it does not matter whether it is communicated using a ministerial account, a parliamentary account, a private Gmail account, an MSN Hotmail account, or whatever other account you want to use. It is still official information, and it is still covered by the Official Information Act because it relates to a Minister\u2019s ministerial responsibilities. For example, Ministers have parliamentary responsibilities, too. They often deal with constituency matters. So if it is a constituent communicating with a Minister in their parliamentary, not ministerial, capacity, that is a grey area, quite frankly, and that does become a lot more difficult because often it is difficult to establish whether this is a ministerial issue or an MP issue. That can be a grey area, and Ministers need to have pretty clear protocols within their own offices about how they deal with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBut the critical thing with regard to this inquiry was that it could easily be argued that the information that the inquiry was seeking with regard to Peter Dunne could be obtained in an official capacity outside this protocol because he is a Minister. Because he is a Minister, he is covered by the Official Information Act. What was interesting, as the inquiry progressed, was that it became clear that the inquiry never asked for that information using the channels available to it. It could have requested that information under the Official Information Act, but it chose not to do that. So we got into quite a lengthy discussion with the inquiry about why that came to be, but it became very clear that there were some significant issues with the way the Inquiries Act could be applied in the future. It became clear that there was a real need to clarify all of the issues and responsibilities here and to make sure that sufficient safeguards were put in place to protect all those working in the parliamentary complex, including the fourth estate\u2014the journalists\u2014so that they could be protected from the potential abuse of power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI am not in any way suggesting that this could happen now, but without these kinds of protocols in place, there is a possibility that someone in a future Government, whatever the shape of the Government may be, could misuse the powers of Government under the Inquiries Act to, effectively, delve into the affairs of another political party, a member of Parliament from another political party, or a journalist and that they could do that inappropriately. The protocol that we are putting in place here, which we are asking the Speaker to adopt, makes sure that that cannot happen. It makes sure that there are safeguards in place so that the incumbent Government, whoever it may be, cannot abuse its position and cannot gain access to information that it could not otherwise gain access to. There is further to come in the next report. We are going to talk about the execution of search warrants within the parliamentary complex and so on, because it actually all fits under, I guess, an umbrella of issues that governs what happens within the parliamentary complex. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere are some important principles at stake here. Members of the public need to be able to communicate with members of Parliament and know that that communication is going to be protected. We deal with those issues all of the time. That is very important. Members of the fourth estate need to know that they can function within the parliamentary complex and do their role as a watchdog\u2014a check and balance on the use and abuse or otherwise of power within the parliamentary complex\u2014and know that they are going to be protected. What became apparent is that up until the point of this protocol, journalists had greater protection when it came to court proceedings, legal proceedings, and so on than they had here in Parliament. I think this protocol goes some way to addressing that deficiency and making sure that all the rules are clear and that that power cannot be abused. I think this is a good report. I want to congratulate the chair of the Privileges Committee, Chris Finlayson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285b58c4f9c4344f79e0d79dbcc5b1f57\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t go over the top.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d64434647e7b4709ba72763c15ab0cb5\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I am being warned by my colleagues not to go over the top, but I think that the inquiry and the deliberations around the report were conducted in a fairly collegial manner by all sides of the House. We had some very interesting discussions. I think that the report that we have produced is a quality one. I think the next one that we are going to be debating is a quality one too, and I think that we have also done quite a good job of deliberating on the Parliamentary Privilege Bill, which we are also going to be debating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI also want to congratulate the Government in terms of the timing of when it is putting this legislation through. I think it is good to do it before an election, so that it applies to the new Parliament. If anything, it kind of follows the protocol that we have with the Standing Orders\u2014that you make changes to the Standing Orders at the end of a term of Parliament so that it applies to the future Parliament and therefore avoid any accusations that any current Parliament is changing the rules to suit itself. I think the idea of having these reports go through so that they take effect from the beginning of the next Parliament\u2014given that we have only 1 week and half of this one left\u2014is an important principle and it is a good one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI will leave my remarks on this particular report at that. I think it is a good report, I think it is good that the protocol is going to be adopted, and I think it will provide that safeguard in the future that has been lacking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022 data-id=\u00221209512916814368b10a30fd276a397a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221209512916814368b10a30fd276a397a\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN (Independent):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a very short call on the very useful report of the Privileges Committee on the use of intrusive powers here at Parliament. This debate is important because the report arises from a misguided attempt to gag the media and threaten the press gallery, and that is always a mistake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EI would like to draw attention to another recent example affecting the privileges of this House and an attempt to gag the media. Recently I was interviewed by Sean Plunket. I said a few things there, and shortly after that the pet barrister of the leader of New Zealand First threatened that company with defamation. The connection and connotations involved with the pet barrister of the leader of New Zealand First representing an undischarged bankrupt who avoided tax tell their own story, and make rather a mockery of any semblance of honesty in that leader\u2019s speech to the convention on Sunday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EI would be happy to table for the benefit of members the May 1997 decision of the Auckland District Court, wherein the court found \u201CMr Henderson guilty, and convict him on each of the 30 charges of smuggling and each of the 30 charges of wilfully making false entries.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261287e5bf33349ba83c9457afb439415\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s this got to do with this debate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227123e067b4324edc92fbc05b6ecd293e\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN\u003C/span\u003E: I take offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9ade89dddec45809bd524a5b0dced60\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d25024f234a4225b8c97669c1ee0463\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Anyway, as I said, it was just going\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b300001a453248eda751fca773015b21\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, Jimmy. Give us your best shot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b330326057746e3a2fbf3b389710248\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Deputy Speaker, did you hear the interjection from that member? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c139dafadc884ef3b8c3b9709d646d40\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Get on with it, Jimmy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecdedb4a407a4f23aea2ddbbf4385087\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN\u003C/span\u003E: Did you hear that interjection from that member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e3463f05cbf48459a2017dd4e043932\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will chair the House; the member will continue with his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d17c63a9a8a144698819757e955b3ef6\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN\u003C/span\u003E: I take offence at that interjection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d119baf79cb46679700db255eda1d4e\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member needs to take a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228447dc44ce954412a7cc9bce7e9d645f\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I take offence at the interjection from Andrew Williams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230a1030f263943e19ae81eee0a466c28\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It was inaudible from here. If the member has taken offence, the member Andrew Williams should withdraw the comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286144c3cea6a41a68005ac929a352a0d\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8d6ca958a994d8ab31777bd632f4cf6\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293ddce10f8524978a43496dcd7d37b01\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying, it is very, very important that the Privileges Committee report is looked at seriously and the motion passed. I hope that it will also look at some of those people who bully within Parliament, like some of those members of New Zealand First. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c0bb85b18e84a6ebe314c2275bfb22e\u0022\u003EConsideration of Report of Privileges Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222868330a17984c02821d9b4b2bf82200\u0022\u003EQuestion of Privilege Concerning the Agreements for Policing, Execution of Search Warrants, and Collection and Retention of Information by the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00222757f2cbc3544706aa1cefc81d133456\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222757f2cbc3544706aa1cefc81d133456\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the report of the Privileges Committee on the question of privilege concerning the agreements for policing, execution of search warrants, and collection and retention of information by the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service be noted, that the recommendations be adopted, and that the Speaker enter into amended agreements on behalf of the House to be brought into effect at a time to be determined by the Speaker. In moving that motion I want to acknowledge the work of the committee. Finalisation of the report was delayed because the committee needed to finalise its report on the use of intrusive powers in the parliamentary precinct, and, as we heard, that matter has now been dealt with. When this initial reference was made, frankly, I thought it would be a rather boring reference, but it turned out to be a very interesting piece of work raising some very interesting questions, and there are one or two further matters that the Speaker will need to consider arising out of this report. But, before I deal with those, let us just briefly summarise how we got to where we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThree agreements were entered into between the Speaker of the House and law enforcement agencies. The Speaker has the authority to control Parliament\u2019s precincts under the Parliamentary Service Act 2000, which is why he or she can enter into these arrangements. Indeed, there is a very sound constitutional reason why the Speaker would enter into these agreements. Parliament as the legislative branch of government must be able to conduct the business of governance of this place without the disruption or hindrance of the use of intrusive powers. There are three agreements: firstly, policing functions within the parliamentary precinct; secondly, the execution of search warrants on premises occupied or used by MPs, with both of those signed with the Commissioner of Police; and, thirdly, the protocol on the collection of information on a sitting MP, signed with the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service. We think that these agreements\u2014and this is a preliminary point\u2014and any other similar agreements should always be published or otherwise made publicly available, for example, on Parliament\u2019s website. Before the reference to the committee, I, for example, was completely unaware of their existence. I think all MPs should be aware of them and should be aware of what the Speaker has done on behalf of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo, first, let us look at the policing functions protocol. We think that this protocol is working well. The protocol intends to make sure the police understand they should carry out their duties in a way that does not impede MPs from carrying out their duties within the parliamentary precinct. This protocol was entered into in 2007 and we think that the protocol could be reviewed by the parties so that its terminology and legislative references can be updated. We also think it would be useful to include a disputes resolution process in the agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESecondly, the agreement relating to the execution of search warrants is an interim arrangement and so it actually has been very useful to take a good look at the agreement and see what can be done to improve it. An important issue arose about execution. Enforcement agencies\u2019 preferred method\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278dfa2a020324085bc4326d34a6bce86\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Interesting concept.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022809feb2eaf24486998516d66e3226d32\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in relation to you it would be a delightful one. Enforcement agencies\u2019 preferred method\u2014not you, Mr Deputy Speaker, of course\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a911ac9445fd453ebe1504b10c246134\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: He just can\u2019t help but be nasty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d88d302800a646ff9eab48fdb756b284\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not being nasty. A bit of jocularity across the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b19f85948b844a05a247521a75787beb\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Look, I do not think that can be passed. You ought not to be executed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d30fb20db8114516bcd55e986d682cf4\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I was actually about to correct myself, and, of course, I would never refer to the Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddbb6f935e934291bd88a22f2f98c072\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will uphold the point of order. I might be leaving but I am not going to be executed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204734eb77eef421ab2d04b2d3dcbbb08\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I certainly would uphold it and mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. So, the preferred method, before I was so rudely interrupted by Mr Robertson, for executing warrants for information stored electronically is often seizing hard drives or other equipment in order to make clones so that the content can then be examined. That, actually, may not be appropriate where the possibility exists that the device could also contain material covered by parliamentary privilege. It would seem utterly inconsistent with the principle that the House has the exclusive right to control its own proceedings, and so what we have recommended is that the protocol set out a system of chaperoning, which is an interesting term, the examination of electronic evidence\u2014in fact, I think the term came from an English report, as I recall it\u2014and that an IT specialist assist with executing the search warrants in relation to electronic documents. The protocol currently does not make explicit that privileged material may not be seized, and we think this does need to be made clear, as well as a requirement that any material later found to be subject to parliamentary privilege should be returned to the member in question. Determinations have to be made by the Speaker, and we recommend that this be made very clear in the agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWe also recommend that the agreement refer to the definition of proceedings of Parliament, which is set out in the Parliamentary Privilege Bill, the second reading of which the House will shortly be dealing with. We also think it would be helpful were the agreement to set out practical examples of material likely to be privileged, in order to provide more guidance in applying the agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThen, the third one was a very, very interesting discussion that we had about the memorandum of understanding between the Speaker and the SIS on the collection of information. The SIS will not generally direct the collection of information on a sitting MP. If the service has a file on a person who becomes an MP, the file is sealed for the duration of the member\u2019s term in Parliament. The collection of information on a sitting MP will be permitted only where the particular member is suspected of activities relevant to security. The collection has to be personally authorised by the director, and the Speaker is briefed confidentially about the proposed collection and the reasons for it. The agreement respects the need for confidentiality in relation to the service\u2019s activities, and we recommend that the agreement be amended to include a statement of principles and purpose and an expression of respect for parliamentary proceedings, because this is a very important agreement, raising some very, very important issues, and we think that a clear statement of principles is required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWe also recommend the agreement should require the Speaker to be consulted in relation to any interception or seizure warrant to be executed on the parliamentary precinct or in an MP\u2019s constituency office, and that the director should provide a written memorandum to the Speaker in advance of such warrant being issued, setting out the information held by, or the activities of, the member that may directly constitute a security concern. I think\u2014well, you would expect me to say this, because I chaired the committee\u2014the report is a very good one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI must say, in conclusion, that we had a really interesting and important discussion about the role of the Speaker\u2014Dr Graham will say something about that shortly\u2014and whether the Speaker can be trusted to receive some of this highly sensitive information and to adjudicate on matters relating to a member of Parliament who may come from a different party. They are very sensitive issues, but the committee had a good discussion about it and the conclusion was that, putting aside partisan differences, when the Speaker takes the oath of office, the Speaker is there to guard the interests and the privileges of all members of Parliament, and when carrying out his or her functions in relation to these agreements, will always need to be mindful not of partisan considerations but of the fact that there is a member of Parliament, albeit from a different political party, whose rights are being interfered with, and so great caution will need to be exercised at all times. This just emphasises the incredibly important role of the Speaker as the guardian of the interests of members of Parliament. The Speaker must never ever forget that important task. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e69c615a5f2045a69d89b41c034770a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e69c615a5f2045a69d89b41c034770a3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I agree with the comments of the Attorney-General, who I think has expressed the issues well. I am not going to take the full allocation of time for my call, but I will make a couple of points. This is another report in a series that the Privileges Committee has brought forward in respect of properly delineating the line of what is a parliamentary proceeding, and being very clear that we are standing for the rights of Parliament, not in respect of our own personal interests as members of Parliament but because we are trying to protect the essential privileges of Parliament in order that Parliament can properly go about its business and protect democracy. That is at the heart of the changes that have been made to the agreement with the SIS to make it absolutely clear that proceedings of Parliament are absolutely privileged and that even the SIS cannot overrule that. That is the first point I would emphasise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe second and final point that I want to address is the one that the Attorney-General ended on. Can I add my thanks to Dr Kennedy Graham in respect of raising this issue with the select committee, which is that where there are outside agencies that come into contact with Parliament, they do so through the Speaker. The Speaker, of course, has able assistance from the Office of the Clerk, but the person whom they liaise with, in a titular sense, is the Speaker. The Speaker is relied upon by this Parliament to act absolutely impartially. Kennedy Graham raised the suggestion that in respect of some of these very, very sensitive issues where it is possible that an outside agency might be doing something that is wrong or is political rather than be interested in purely security issues, there was a need to bolster the efforts of the Speaker by introducing someone else, whether it be the Leader of the Opposition or some other person. I am sure Kennedy Graham will address this more ably than I am.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn the end the committee concluded that we have to rely upon and trust the Speaker. It was quite instructive for me because it reminded me of how important the independence of the Speaker is. I think it was the Attorney-General who said to the committee\u2014and I did not know this until he said it\u2014that in Great Britain, for example, once the Speaker is appointed, the Speaker becomes a lot less political than the Speaker is in New Zealand. The Speaker generally exists beyond Parliaments in Great Britain\u2014and the Attorney-General can tell me whether I have got this wrong\u2014and, indeed, the tradition is that with regard to the seat from which the Speaker comes, the other party does not stand a candidate against the Speaker. All of this emphasises the independence of the Speaker and the duty that the Speaker has to Parliament rather than to their own political party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne of the reflections I have as we come out of this report is I wonder whether as a country we can actually do a little bit better in the future in encouraging that independence of Speaker. This is not a criticism of the current Speaker or Speakers past, but, actually, the independence of the Speaker in New Zealand is not quite as entrenched as it obviously is in England. For example, some Speakers do and some do not\u2014and this has happened on both sides of the House\u2014attend caucus meetings after they have become Speaker. I suspect that in the UK they never do. We still stand candidates from opposing parties against Speakers, and Speakers do not exist beyond the term of a Parliament in New Zealand. They generally leave with the governing party. If the governing party changes, so does the Speaker. So it would be interesting for us to reflect, I think, as members of Parliament as to whether we would be a better institution, whether we would run better, and whether there would be more trust in things like question time if the Speaker really was imbued with these other attributes of independence. That is the only thing I would contribute to the debate. I recommend the report of the Privileges Committee, which is unanimous, to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022 data-id=\u00220111a98cd8c14f519e2d1c653a97f8c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220111a98cd8c14f519e2d1c653a97f8c8\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is almost 2 years now since the Speaker referred to our Privileges Committee questions of privilege arising from agreements he had signed with the Police and the SIS. Those agreements were automatically up for review. The committee, as is the norm, worked constructively and to good purpose. In our report we suggested several changes to the agreements that in our view will improve matters. In one case, however, I shall explore the implications of the agreement, even in its improved state, because they raise profound issues attending to our notion of the world in the 21st century and New Zealand\u2019s place within that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ELet me make, first, a general comment. I do query whether confining these types of agreements to the status of memoranda of understanding is of itself sufficient. They reside at the centre of the constitutional relationship between the executive and the legislature. They evoke the most sensitive of all issues\u2014domestic order on the one hand, when it comes to the police, and global order on the other, when it comes to the SIS. They involve concepts that are subtle, politically relative, and open to contestation. In such a scenario, if the chips are down, it is likely that the executive will claim an imperative duty and prevail over the legislature in any dispute on grounds of national security. This occurs now, when the Prime Minister, as the Minister of intelligence services, withholds information from the House on precisely those grounds. The system in this country defaults, through lack of mature convention, in favour of the executive. It might be queried, therefore, whether a memorandum of understanding, which is legally unenforceable in the courts, is the right way to go, when the issue of executive-legislature relations is at stake. Perhaps we should give thought to incorporating this kind of thing into primary legislation, as we are doing with the Parliamentary Privilege Bill, but that is for the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ELet me comment on the Privileges Committee\u2019s views, as reported back to the House. With regard, first, to the two police agreements involving search warrants, the Green Party endorses the select committee\u2019s recommendations, which included a disputes resolution process, a system for chaperoning the examination of electronic evidence, the engagement of an IT specialist, an understanding that the Speaker determines when information is subject to parliamentary privilege, a 24-hour default period to seek legal advice, cross-reference to the Parliamentary Privilege Bill, and the definition of \u201Cproceedings in Parliament\u201D. We endorse all of this. The relationship between Parliament and the police will benefit from these improvements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ELet me now turn to the SIS agreement, on which we worked constructively across party lines, while engaging in serious and meaningful dialogue in one particular area where we differed a little. First, there are the areas of consensus. The SIS agreement should be amended to include a statement of principles and purpose. The Speaker should be consulted by the SIS director in relation to any interception or seizure. In advance of such a warrant being issued, the SIS director should provide a written memorandum to the Speaker, setting out the actions done or information held by a member that might constitute an issue of security concern. The agreement should specify that the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has a role in overseeing the actions of the SIS in relation to the agreement. Consideration should be given to whether it is necessary for the Speaker to enter into a separate agreement with the Government Communications Security Bureau in light of the organisation\u2019s potential role in assisting others in exercising their lawful authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ESome of these recommendations are the result of Green Party proposals that reflect our concerns, and I thank committee members, especially the chairman, the Hon Chris Finlayson, for his capable and constructive stewardship. The committee stopped short of agreeing with all of our proposals, and that did not come as a total surprise, but it was the result of some useful discussion on the nature of national security, perhaps to an unprecedented extent in the New Zealand Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThe essential issue is this. At present the SIS must close any file on any person who is elected to Parliament but it may reopen a file or open a file for the first time on a sitting MP if the MP is suspected of undertaking activities \u201Crelevant to security\u201D. This may involve simply the collection of information, or it may extend to a warrant for surveillance or interception. In these circumstances the SIS is to brief the Speaker, who must ensure that parliamentary privilege is properly respected. The SIS director is to provide in advance a written memorandum to the Speaker setting out the actions done or information held by a member that may constitute an issue of security concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThis is fine as far as it goes, and the requirement for a written memorandum was our suggestion. The problem we still have is that it is left to only one member of Parliament, namely the Speaker, to be briefed on what is a matter of security concern. The question of whether the opening of a file on a sitting member should be discussed by the SIS with only the Speaker or with any other senior member of Parliament was raised by the Green Party, and the reason for raising the matter is the evolving nature of the meaning of national security in the 21st century.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ESecurity, as defined in section 2 of the current legislation, the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Act 1969, has four components. One refers to espionage, sabotage, and subversion. The second refers to New Zealand\u2019s international well-being or economic well-being. The third refers to activities that are influenced by any foreign organisation or foreign person and are clandestine, deceptive, or threaten the safety of any person. The fourth refers to terrorism. So you can see the scope for subjective difference of view, respectfully held, of what within that definition might constitute an act of security concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EA political party may have a fundamentally different interpretation of what constitutes security from an interpretation that might be embraced by the SIS. It could be queried, for example, whether the SIS should be permitted to undertake surveillance on New Zealand citizens who may hold different views from any Government on what is in New Zealand\u2019s international or economic well-being. That might apply to any party\u2014National as much as Green. This is not a matter of subversion; it is a matter of difference of democratically held opinion within domestic law. We therefore are of the view that although the Speaker is the embodiment of the House, it is still a necessary reassurance to the public that an equally senior member of Parliament from another political party be briefed by the SIS at the same time in addition to the Speaker. The obvious person is the Leader of the Opposition, as was noted earlier by my colleague David Parker. The conventions of independence of the Speaker and dissociation from politics and a particular party are not developed in this country as much as elsewhere\u2014particularly in the United Kingdom. So, even with the best of intent, a Speaker may make a misjudgment or could be prejudicing the interests even of his or her own party colleagues as much as other party colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThose are our views on the matter. I could elaborate, but I think the discussion was sufficient in the committee to warrant further consideration. We believe that the report goes some considerable way to improving the operation of the SIS in relation to Parliament and to individual members of Parliament. We therefore endorse the report, but there is clearly still a need for further ongoing dialogue on this vital and sensitive subject. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u002233e1955af14145389806fa30486c1c77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233e1955af14145389806fa30486c1c77\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This report follows on from the report of the Privileges Committee into the Henry inquiry following the Kitteridge report leak. New Zealand First endorses the recommendations in the report concerning the amendment of the agreements for policing, execution of search warrants in a way consistent with the proper functioning of Parliament, and the collection and retention of information by the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service. Anyone who gives a damn about democracy\u2014and New Zealand First certainly does\u2014will consider this an important report in terms of New Zealand\u2019s constitutional and parliamentary integrity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EWe must never have a repeat of the shambles that was the Henry inquiry. That exposed that there was indeed something rotten in the State of New Zealand. We had confirmation that what we in New Zealand First had been saying from the outset\u2014that Mr Henry was not qualified in any way, shape, or form for the inquiry\u2014was correct. Mr Henry was, in fact, a completely inappropriate appointment. Anyone could see that his record could not possibly have qualified him for the job. Of course, that was precisely why the Prime Minister picked him for the job\u2014just another example of the kind of tricky dick behaviour we have come to expect from this Prime Minister. And\u2014surprise, surprise\u2014the Henry inquiry actually provided no answers; it just left more unanswered questions. The Henry inquiry was, therefore, more than anything, in my view, an indictment of John Key and of his contempt for democratic process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EOur democracy is not just the right to vote every 3 years, as we are about to do. Real democracy is a complex web of spoken and unspoken rules and conventions that give it true meaning\u2014not just the semblance of democracy, not just a veneer to keep the public calm and quiescent. The privacy of media communications is one of those aspects that are vital to an effective, functioning democracy. It is a privilege that must be cherished and must not be abused, and is one of the core elements that underlie our democratic State. The Privileges Committee made it clear that there had been contempt for this principle, not just by Mr Henry but by senior parliamentary officials. If they are not guardians of democratic practices, who is? The interim report talked of \u201Cerrors of judgment\u201D by parliamentary staff. That must be the understatement of the century. Mr Thorn fell on his sword, and to his credit he accepted his accountability and left. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EBut John Key was deeply implicated in this absolute mess, as well. Where is the acceptance of accountability from him? Of course, we have learnt not to accept any such accountability from this Prime Minister. This report is a wake-up call, showing how easy it is for the essential props of democracy to be kicked away. One thing is for sure: when John Key is around, hyper-vigilance is necessary. Mr Key and his cronies will unthinkingly trash our democracy, just like they are trashing so much else in this country at the present time. That is the real message to be learnt from this whole sorry affair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002210407f6d9ad54054b439f9f66c228fb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210407f6d9ad54054b439f9f66c228fb5\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am going to take just a brief call on this report from the Privileges Committee looking at \u201Cthe agreements for policing execution of search warrants, and collection and retention of information by the NZSIS\u201D. Comments made already by the Attorney-General, Chris Finlayson, my colleague David Parker, and Kennedy Graham cover most of the material the report has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat I want to talk about are two things. The first is a very specific matter that when I came on to the Privileges Committee I was concerned about in this area, and it is that when search warrants are executed\u2014this is not just for Parliament but more generally\u2014nowadays, with the growth of the use of electronic information storage, it is the practice of an agency to seize the entire hard drive of a person who is involved in an investigation in order to get the particular documents or information that is desired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen a member of Parliament is in that situation, there may well be material on that hard drive that is quite separate from what is being sought and that actually could be captured and taken away from a member of Parliament in such a way as to compromise both parliamentary privilege and the general operation of our work as parliamentarians. So I applaud the recommendation that is in this report that, actually\u2014and this is the \u201Cchaperoning\u201D concept the Attorney-General mentioned earlier\u2014an IT specialist will assist in the execution of the warrants to ensure that our rights as parliamentarians are upheld and that parliamentary privilege is protected within that. I think that that is a small but very important advance for us, to ensure that we do not, as parliamentarians, hand over material that ultimately is privileged and should not be part of those investigations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other point I particularly want to make is around the question of the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service and its role with Parliament. I appreciate the fact that this report is, in fact, following on from an interim report of the committee in this area and following on from protocols that were signed off several years ago\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254bc1254a5b54035a009fcb6de5d3a4b\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: By Margaret Wilson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe4dbec7a5f54a10921453d2b153b1c9\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that is right\u2014by Margaret Wilson as the Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere is a fundamental principle that I think needs to be reiterated here, and it is that the SIS is not, under normal circumstances, going to be collecting information about a sitting member of Parliament. As the Attorney-General said, once someone becomes a sitting member of Parliament, their file is closed immediately. I think it is very, very important that we make sure that is on the record of the House as the fundamental underlying principle here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat can happen is that, for reasons of national security, there may be on occasions situations in which the SIS may want to be looking at the activities of a member of Parliament. The threshold for doing so must be very high, because we, as parliamentarians, need to be able to go about our business unencumbered by the activities of State agencies with significant powers. It is on that point that I want to raise my concerns. They are that a review of the Security Intelligence Service was planned and was never completed. In the maelstrom of all of the concerns about the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB), Kim Dotcom, and the appointment of Ian Fletcher, that review of the SIS was quietly shelved by John Key. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI believe it is essential that that review is done. The Labour Party\u2019s policy is that we need a review of both the Security Intelligence Service and the GCSB, and, in fact, of all of the agencies involved in our security intelligence system, which also now includes particularly the Organised and Financial Crime Agency of New Zealand, as part of the police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn the absence of that review, public trust and confidence in our security intelligence agencies has reached an all-time low in New Zealand. For my part, I am deeply distressed by that. I am a person who believes that it is important that we get the balance between security and privacy in our society right. In the modern era, that is even more important. I understand, and the Labour Party understands, why we have these agencies working for us. There are reasons. There are people in the world today from whom New Zealand needs to be protected, but equally our privacy and our rights as citizens must not be compromised by that, and our privacy and our rights as members of Parliament representing citizens must not be compromised by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E At the moment, legislatively, for the GCSB, we now have, in my view, legislation that goes far too far in terms of that balance, and we have lost that balance between security and privacy. [Interruption] That is right. As my colleague David Parker says, the absence of the requirement for a warrant and the fact that we have to essentially rely on the assurance of the Prime Minister about how these investigations will be operationalised is ridiculous and is, in fact, an insult to this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe SIS sits alongside that, operating in operations within New Zealand without the review that was meant to take place. We need that review to happen, to restore trust and confidence. In fact, for this report to have my full and complete confidence, we need to know that review is going to happen. It is noted in the report that the issues that Kennedy Graham has been discussing in his contribution need to be considered whenever the legislation governing the SIS is reviewed. Well, my view is that it urgently needs to be reviewed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EHaving said that, the situation we find ourselves in today is that the Speaker is the person who acts on behalf of this Parliament in dealing with these agencies. We must have confidence that the Speaker will act in a way that upholds the rights of all members of Parliament, no matter what party they come from. It is also true to say that under the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Act as it stands, the Director of Security does need to consult with the Leader of the Opposition from time to time. Without going into any detail about those matters, I think they would tend to be at the more general level, not at the specific level of what might be happening with a particular member of Parliament. Therefore, the Speaker\u2019s responsibility here is extremely high. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI do not think we are at the end of our discussion about the role of the Speaker, as David Parker has mentioned, or, indeed, about the relationship between this Parliament and agencies with powers, such as the SIS, but this report represents a series of useful changes to the processes that were originally brought forward. From the point of view of the Labour Party, we can support this report, but we welcome the idea of ongoing dialogue about the role of the SIS in relation to Parliament. We strongly urge and, in fact, commit to the public of New Zealand that we will do the review of security and intelligence agencies that is needed to restore public trust and confidence in them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f57e779d24e2463899cd430c7043e2a8\u0022\u003EParliamentary Privilege Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221877ea2f48ca4944805fd44a0ff904c0\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u002299c704edbcaf47d580bb38558fd86d2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299c704edbcaf47d580bb38558fd86d2c\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Parliamentary Privilege Bill be now read a second time. I want to begin by endorsing what the deputy leader of the Labour Party said about the excellent work done by the officials, because they really did do a tremendous job on this bill. I particularly acknowledge Debra Angus. I think in her we have, as Mr Parker said, a foremost Commonwealth authority on some of these difficult issues. I also acknowledge John Pike QC, who has probably conducted more litigation in this area than any other lawyer in the Commonwealth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge the assistance provided by the submitters, all of whom gave very helpful submissions to the committee. I acknowledge David Cochrane for the Legislation Advisory Committee and the helpful submissions and reports received from overseas Parliaments, including the Joint Committee on Parliamentary Privilege, of the House of Lords and the House of Commons. Although that committee recently considered that extensive codification is not required in the United Kingdom at the present time, it concluded that legislation should be used only where absolutely necessary to resolve uncertainty or in the unlikely event of Parliament\u2019s exclusive cognisance being materially diminished by the courts. The bill recognises that in New Zealand we have actually now reached that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBefore turning to the bill I just want to say something about the importance of the issue. Parliamentary privilege is not about giving a licence to members of this House to defame outsiders without having to suffer the consequences. Such a cynical view of parliamentary privileges, probably to be expected from some in the community\u2014and I can just about read now some of the portentous editorials and opinion pieces on the subject that can be expected to be produced any day now. I just want to say they are wrong. I support what the report of the committee says. Parliamentary privilege is in fact one of the building blocks of our democracy; it is the cornerstone of an effective Parliament, and protection of parliamentary privilege safeguards democracy itself. It ensures that we, the people\u2019s representatives, can debate and deal with the issues of the day freely and frankly, without fear of coercion or punishment and without concern that matters of accountability will be adjudicated on by bodies outside the House. It ensures our democracy remains robust and strong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIt is also important to emphasise three key points: firstly, that parliamentary privilege belongs to Parliament, not its individual members; secondly, that others who interact with Parliament, such as the media and members of the public or officials, may also benefit from the existence and the protection of parliamentary privilege; and, thirdly\u2014and this is very important for all of us\u2014that with these privileges come obligations. We must be circumspect in the use and application of these privileges. We have got to be mindful of their source and purpose when we invoke them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs can be seen from a cursory reading of the bill, we have extensively restructured it to make it easier to interpret, easier to navigate. Instead of two parts, one dealing with substantive provisions and one dealing with savings provisions, related amendments, and repeals, there are now in fact five parts. Part 1 deals with preliminary provisions. What we have done is recast the purpose clause in clause 3 into a main purpose clause and subsidiary purposes. That is there for all to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EClause 3(1) sets out the main purposes of the bill\u2014that is, to reaffirm and clarify the scope and extent of parliamentary privilege as it applies to the House, its members, and committees, and to ensure adequate protection from civil and criminal liability for communication of, and documents relating to, proceedings in Parliament. Yes, indeed, they are high-level statements of the principles, but they were not so clearly and cogently expressed in the original clause. Clause 3(2) sets out the subsidiary purposes to help it achieve the main purposes. I will speak about them a little later on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThen what we have done is insert new clause 3A, and that stipulates that the bill has to be interpreted in a way that promotes its main and subsidiary purposes and, importantly, that it must be interpreted in a way that promotes the principle of comity. Comity requires that the separate and independent branches of Government, the legislature and the judiciary, show mutual respect and restraint in the other\u2019s sphere of influence. This is not a legislative innovation, because this principle of comity has long been recognised. New clause 3A emphasises the importance of understanding this constitutional context when dealing with questions relating to parliamentary privilege or proceedings in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThen we come to new Part 1A. It is the very heart of the bill. Clause 6 sets out the purpose of parliamentary privilege\u2014that is, the privileges, immunities, and powers of the House are exercisable to uphold the integrity of the House as a democratic legislative assembly and to secure the independence of the House, the members, and the committees in the performance of their functions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EClause 8 of the bill as introduced broadly followed section 16 of the Australian Parliamentary Privileges Act 1987. But what we have done is work to make this provision clear, simple, and easy to understand. That, of course, is very important when one is considering a major constitutional piece of legislation like this. We have recommended changes for a new Subpart 2 of Part 1A of the bill to separate the key components of clause 8 into eight separate clauses. We have also recommended changes to simplify and modernise the language. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhat will happen is that these clauses still broadly follow section 16 of the Australian Act. They do not replace but declare the effect of article 9 of the Bill of Rights 1688, which states: \u201CThat the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament:\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWe had an interesting discussion about some of the terminology and whether or not it could be updated, but after some deliberation the committee suggested that the bill continue to reflect the original language of article 9, and this is reaffirmed by clauses 8A to 8H. These provisions do not directly override or amend article 9; rather, they sit alongside it. So although clauses 8C to 8F make clear what is intended by impeaching or questioning in relation to a proceeding in Parliament, the bill does not limit the full extent and the richness of the meaning of the Bill of Rights 1688, which is one of our most important constitutional documents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EClause 8B is an extremely important clause because for the first time, I think, we actually try to define \u201Cproceedings in Parliament\u201D for the purposes of article 9 in the Bill of Rights. It is important to note the committee recommended changes to ensure that proceedings include matters that relate to the \u201Ctransacting of reasonably apprehended business\u201D. It is also made explicit that necessity is not\u2014I emphasise that it is not\u2014the appropriate test to apply when determining what may be a proceeding in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe changes recommended by the committee make it clear beyond any doubt whatsoever that the reduction in the scope of parliamentary privilege resulting from the decision in Attorney-General and Gow v Leigh is reversed. I quote again from the committee\u2019s report: \u201COur proposed definition recognises that much of the vital business of Parliament is transacted away from the floor of the House, or in reasonable anticipation of parliamentary business, and it is critical that privilege apply to such proceedings.\u201D The necessity test is, with the greatest of respect, utterly misconceived. \u201CWe consider the advice provided to Ministers in preparation for reasonably expected questions in the House\u201D\u2014as occurred in the Leigh case\u2014\u201Care proceedings in Parliament under this definition.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ELet me also say something about another case that went off to the Privy Council after arising out of something here: Buchanan v Jennings. That was a defamation action against an MP who, after making a statement in the House, was said to have effectively repeated it when he said outside the House that he did not resile from the statements made in the House. The case established that where such a statement was made, it was an effective repetition, and that the proceedings of Parliament could themselves be used in evidence. In its 2013 report, the Privileges Committee recommended the abolition of the doctrine of effective repetition, and this was included in the bill as introduced. What we have done here is recommend changes to clause 8C, including the addition of new paragraphs (d) and (e), to prevent proceedings in Parliament from being relied on to prove or disprove facts necessary to establish liability in court or otherwise being used to resolve, support, or resist court proceedings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe bill as introduced also included a statement in what was clause 10 that effective repetition statements were protected by absolute privilege as well as establishing an evidential barrier. The committee recommends removing all provisions relating to absolute privilege and relying on a strengthened evidential barrier against the courts using proceedings in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EPart 1B further simplifies the framework for protecting the broadcasting and publishing of proceedings in Parliament. The new clause 15 replaces clauses 11 to 13 and 15 to 16 of the bill as introduced. It provides for a stay of court or tribunal proceedings that have been brought on the basis of a proceeding in Parliament or of a document related to a proceeding in Parliament communicated under the authority of the House, such as broadcasts made under the authority of the House. Subpart 2 of Part 1B deals with the qualified immunity available as a defence to proceedings based on fair and accurate reports of proceedings in Parliament. Of course, being a qualified immunity, it will not be available where a defendant was motivated by bad faith or ill will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ETime prevents me from dealing with the remaining parts, so I will leave that to other members of Parliament to address, but I simply say this in conclusion: parliamentary privilege stands as an independent and vital part of our constitutional arrangements. What this bill does is address incremental infractions on that constitutional principle over the years and affirms the principles that help ensure a strong democracy. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00220dcd4c834d954cd69db87058fbeefaa7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220dcd4c834d954cd69db87058fbeefaa7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Again, can I endorse the Attorney-General\u2019s comments in respect of the Parliamentary Privilege Bill, which is probably one of the more important bills that we will pass in this Parliament. It will not be seen by a lot of people to be that, but in my opinion it is. Democracy is a very fragile thing. Democracy involves this complex web of societal settings including respect for the rule of law, protection of property rights, prosperity, a fair division of income, a fair division of wealth, an educated population, a healthy population, freedom from corruption, transparency\u2014all of these ingredients that you have to get right in order to have long-term democracies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere are very few long-term democracies that are unbroken in the world. New Zealand is one of the longest unbroken democracies in the world, and, indeed, most of the long unbroken democracies in the world have their roots in the Westminster model of governance and the separation of powers. If you look around the world, there are very, very few countries that have our record of 150 years of unbroken democracy. That is the record in New Zealand\u2014over 150 years of unbroken democracy. None of the countries in South America, none in Africa, and none in Asia have it. There are virtually none in Europe, with a couple of exceptions there in respect of, you might say, Switzerland and you would certainly say the United Kingdom. Then the other exceptions include the likes of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the United States. Even the United States democracy in an unbroken sense is not as long as ours because it, of course, had its Civil War. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe length of democracy that we have in some of these countries that are based on the Westminster model has proven to stand those countries in good stead, and at the heart of the balance of these different relationships that you need to protect in order to achieve a long and fair democracy lies, as one of its principles, the balance of power between Parliament and the courts. The elucidation of that relationship\u2014if you want to look at that in a historical context for New Zealand\u2014goes back to the Bill of Rights 1688. At that time there was conflict between the King and Parliament. The King had effectively usurped some of the powers of Parliament. He had overridden some laws without the approval of Parliament and had written some new laws without the approval of Parliament. There was a scrap going on in the UK between these different arms of the country, these different powers within the country. I do not pretend to be an expert on these historical issues so I will probably get some of the detail wrong, but essentially there was this contest between the powers of Parliament and the powers of the King, then there was also the questions of where the power of the court lies in this and what the limit is to the court\u2019s powers. Is it an arm of the King, is it an arm of the Parliament, or is it a separate arm that should stand alone, and where does this intersection of powers exist between Parliament and the court? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIt was sorted out, essentially, through the Bill of Rights 1688. Freedom of speech was set out in article 9. It said: \u201Cthe freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament.\u201D That is a pretty general statement. Sometimes these statements are actually best left a little bit general, because at times there are grey lines that are very, very hard to completely codify in a way that answers all possibilities into the future, because they cannot all be thought of and circumstances change, and if you go down that particular codification route, you can actually get yourself into a pickle. In reality, if you have an irresponsible Parliament that is going too far, then I want the courts to push back against the way that Parliament is acting against the interests of the people. If you get courts that are going too far, and they are writing too much law or going too far by effectively entering into the political realm, then I want Parliament to push back against the courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI quite like the generality of the provisions that sit in the Bill of Rights 1688, because it enables that mature sort of pushing backwards and forwards where these two incredibly important spheres of influence within society occasionally push up against each other. When that circumstance arises, then we rely upon our traditions to make sure that we do that in a respectful way. If we think the courts have gone too far, we respectfully push back a little bit, and if they think Parliament has gone a bit far\u2014as they have recently expressed in respect of issues relating to taking voting rights away from prisoners that this Parliament did, against the opposition of the Labour Party, I have to say, but it did none the less\u2014they gently push back the other way. They do it respectfully, and this is the principle of comity that the Attorney-General was referring to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat for me is the generality of what we are dealing with. We have a fantastic system in New Zealand. We do not need to codify all of these things. We would be worse off if we did codify everything. Occasionally, we still need to push back against the other, and then through that respectful process we use to get there we actually get to a decent outcome that we can all live with. We get this balance of interests right, which means our democracies endure and we have a peaceful, prosperous, and happy country. That is essentially what democracy should be trying to achieve. When you go from that to the specifics of this bill, the specifics are dealing with what we in Parliament think has been a push a little bit too far by the courts, into undermining what we think is the true intent of that freedom of expression set out in article 9, which guarantees \u201CThat the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe think that two recent decisions of the New Zealand courts\u2014namely, the decision in Attorney General and Gow v Leigh and the decision in Buchanan v Jennings\u2014in their own ways go a little bit too far. That is what this legislation tries to fix. It does so by choosing at the same time to set that out in statute and codify it, in respect of what is absolutely privileged in terms of parliamentary proceedings. Parliaments in the Westminster tradition have been pretty slow to do that because we like the generality of rules, but the Australians led the way and they seem to have got to a pretty sensible place. So the way in which we are trying to get back to what we think is the underlying intent in article 9 of the Bill of Rights is by codifying what we think is a parliamentary proceeding that ought to be subject to absolute privilege, not for the benefit of members of Parliament but for the benefit of democracy. The legislation that the Attorney-General has brought forward does that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI also, again, repeat the thanks that I gave in an earlier contribution on a report of the Privileges Committee in respect of, in particular, the contributions of Debra Angus, and I would also add my thanks to the Legislation Advisory Committee, in particular David Cochrane\u2019s contribution in respect of that. I think the suggestions they made that we were actually creating a bit of a problem in respect of importing defamation concepts into our parliamentary privileges legislation were wise, and that is why in the bill as reported back from the select committee we fixed that in the manner that the Attorney-General has explained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of Buchanan v Jennings, the problem with that decision was that it\u2014not in a deliberate way\u2014took advantage of the liberty that Parliament is given in New Zealand and some other jurisdictions for matters that are absolutely privileged in Parliament to be used in court. We do allow that at times, but it actually took that a step further and said that allowing that to happen should be seen to be allowing those statements in Parliament to be used to prove defamation in respect of effective repetition outside of Parliament. From our perspective that was the logical error in that decision, and so we are trying to reverse that and say that it is a nonsense, and it would be seen as being a nonsense by people outside of Parliament, to think that a member of Parliament would be defaming\u2014it might be the rich and famous who feel that they have been wrongly treated by a statement in Parliament\u2014by saying nothing more than \u201CI do not resile from what I said in Parliament.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIf you say outside of Parliament what you said in Parliament and you actually repeat it, of course, that is another defamation and you can be sued for it. But not to be able to say \u201CI don\u2019t resile from these comments.\u201D is a nonsense and actually makes politicians look silly, which in itself would undermine public confidence in democracy, which is what we are trying to achieve here. So I and the Labour Party support the second reading of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1eb9b28010a450ba8185f953a539be9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1eb9b28010a450ba8185f953a539be9\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I do not intend to take up too much time in this second reading. I will reserve my more substantive comments on the bill for the third reading, but I just say that the Green Party is very pleased with the progress in the Privileges Committee on the Parliamentary Privilege Bill. I do also want to join others in acknowledging the work of officials, particularly Mary Harris, Debra Angus, and Meipara Poata. It is a privilege\u2014if you will allow the word\u2014to be a member of a committee served by officials of that calibre. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThe Parliamentary Privilege Bill is a most massive piece of work and it focuses on the most fundamental matters affecting the constitution that I think we have undertaken, certainly in the 50th Parliament and possibly for some time before. It also involves the most intricate threads of reasoning that I have experienced in committee work in my time in the House, and I pay tribute to colleagues Chris Finlayson, David Parker, Grant Robertson, and others as well as the officials for collaboratively producing this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EI want to make just one or two points of a general nature. We have been talking this morning about the principle of comity underpinning this bill and the relationship between the executive and the judiciary. I would wish to emphasise\u2014and I am sure I speak for others\u2014that the bill is not intended in any way as a sign or a gesture of disrespect to the judiciary. It is taking on some of the judicial decisions that have been made. As David Parker said, there is a fundamental reason for that. The principle of comity rests on mutual respect and it is that that is driving, to some extent, this bill. But there is, if I may say so, a related principle, and that is the principle of self-respect of the branches of government\u2014self-respect by the legislature of the legislature and the interests of the legislature, self-respect by the judiciary of the status and interests of the judiciary itself. And I think the mutuality that underpins the principle of comity rests on a recognition of the need for self-respect on both branches as well. I think it is very important that this bill\u2014presuming it passes through the House\u2014is embraced in that spirit by everybody in New Zealand and all branches of government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EMy second point picks up on something the Attorney-General has said about parliamentary privilege. I totally agree that privilege in this House is not a licence. It is not a licence granted to members\u2014to insiders\u2014to defame members of the public outside. It is precisely the opposite. It is not a licence; it is a protection. It is a protection that is exercised by the representatives who are elected by the people to ensure that the rights and the freedoms of the people are respected in perpetuity. So privilege is actually, in a sense, vicariously the privilege of every member of the New Zealand society and, provided it is exercised with responsibility, we should all be embracing it. With privilege, of course, comes obligation, not least the obligation to ensure that we get this bill right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EI would just want to make one last comment and that is in response to\u2014at the risk of wafting into seminar-like ratiocination but I blame David Parker for that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e203306c6d74d9d8f8e1f582bd16261\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: You wouldn\u2019t do that, Kennedy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212700161c1e9464d8ea447076c67425c\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is David\u2019s fault. It is true that bills of this nature underpin and secure the democracy that prevails in this country and it is incumbent on us to cherish and celebrate the status of democracy in this country. But I think there is an equal counter-requirement on our part not to overstate that and not to perceive our democracy as being superior to others. I think, in fact, that the moment we start to do that is the moment we start to take on the risk that you could undermine it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EI say that because the Westminster model that we have inherited, which Mr Parker mentioned, has tremendous strengths, but I personally think it also carries with it some weaknesses. I worked in an organisation that you, Mr Assistant Speaker, might possibly be aware of when I was in New York, and my job was to relate to parliamentarians around the world and to parliaments. When you visit 30 or 40 parliaments you get a feel for the constitutional structures that underpin the politics and the society in those countries but also the dynamics and the chemistry day to day that give the blood to the veins of that kind of particular democracy. You go away concluding that every democracy has its strengths and its weaknesses, and we have to recognise that ours has weaknesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EWe talk about the separation of powers but we have just devoted the last couple of sessions\u2014not so much with consideration of reports on the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service and the police but with the Henry report\u2014to exactly this issue: the separation of powers and the problems that the merger of executive and legislature in the Westminster system gives to us. I think we could have regard, actually, to the republican constitutional status and the civil law code, which have strengths that we lack. It is as simple as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EI think if we look at 30 or 40 Parliaments around the world that reflect the republican status, the one defining conclusion I have drawn from visiting 30 or 40 of them is that a little bit of carpentry is not a bad idea for democracy. Those legislatures are hemispherical, but the Westminster system is almost World War I trench warfare. There are times when I have concerns, looking at the fine member of Parliament\u2014and I really mean that\u2014in the form of Grant Robertson and the fine member of Parliament in the form of the Attorney-General. They are two sword-lengths apart, more or less. It is trench warfare, and it undermines the ability to form a social consensus that can be sometimes quite critical to issues of defining importance where we must play down the adversarial nature of relationships between parties and the differentiation of policy between parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ESome things are too important for politics, and we need to find an underlying consensus on which we can base a national policy that can move marginally from Government to Government, not in the fundamental way that can happen in Westminster systems, and in Australia and New Zealand probably more than anywhere else. I go through Europe, as I did at the end of last year, and I see the underlying consensus. Take climate change, which I am devoting a lot of time to. There is a consensus there on which policy can rest that is lacking in this country and in Australia, in Canada, and in the United States. So I just mention that in passing because I think when it comes to supporting a bill like this it is critically important that we do support it, and that we get it right. But let us also think about some of the other broader issues of defending the democracy that we do so cherish in this country. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e126f49f1e094efeab97d244d4f02d8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e126f49f1e094efeab97d244d4f02d8d\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak briefly to the Parliamentary Privilege Bill. I think, from listening to the debate so far, the collegiality that we see in the House, even in the order of speakers, is proof that it actually was an extraordinary privilege to come together in the Privileges Committee and talk about issues that have nothing to do with the day-to-day politics that we are all consumed with on a daily basis here, but to be able to delve into quite critical issues for democracy. At times, I have to admit, as a non-lawyer, it was a very esoteric discussion. But there were two very clear issues that we were addressing. One was the relationship between Parliament and justice\u2014the courts\u2014and that is, of course, defined as \u201Ccomity\u201D. That was actually around a decision made in the courts about how Ministers and MPs can get advice from officials and what protections there are for the performance of politicians to be able to rely on free and frank advice from their officials. The second issue again related to the ability of Ministers and MPs to speak freely in this House. Both issues need to be protected under parliamentary privilege, and have a long history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EOf course, as a lover of history, that fascinated me. Even though we think we are modern, in the 21st century, actually much of what we discussed goes right back to the 1600s and the Glorious Revolution, which was to overthrow the Stuarts. Of course, that is all tied up in religion, but politics is at the heart of it. So we went right back to that Bill of Rights that was passed on 16 December 1689. That restated, in statutory form, the Declaration of Rights that was presented by the Convention Parliament to William and Mary, inviting them to become the joint sovereigns of England. It laid down the limits of the powers of the Crown, and set out the rights of Parliament and the rules then for freedom of speech. When you dig right down into what was a very simple matter that went to court, about the ability of an official to give a Minister free and frank advice, without fear of being taken to court for that advice, it goes right back to William and Mary and the Bill of Rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EWhen you look at the Bill of Rights, it laid out certain basic rights. The first was that there could be no royal interference with the law. Although the sovereign remained at the head of justice, they could not unilaterally establish new courts or act as a judge. There were two other provisions that were of note for us. One was that there was to be no royal interference in the election of members of Parliament, and, secondly, that the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament. That went to the heart of the second issue that we were dealing with. So MPs are able to stand in the House and ask questions to hold the Government to account and make statements, and they are able to do so without fear of court action against them, so that they have the right, under parliamentary privilege\u2014always taking into account that we have a huge responsibility not to abuse that privilege\u2014to be able to stand by those statements that are made in Parliament without the fear of being taken to court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003ESo those two particular issues\u2014firstly, being able to get free and frank advice from officials and, secondly, protecting that right to stand in the House and ask questions and make comments and statements without fear of the courts\u2014were about the balance between the rights and privileges of parliamentarians versus the rights and privileges of the courts. In the end, we felt that the balance was wrong and this bill attempts, then, to put back in place those privileges that we deem to have been granted to parliamentarians, dating right back to 1689 in the new dating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EIt was a long and interesting discussion. I agree with the previous speakers that we were well led by the Attorney-General and David Parker, but in the end all members were able to contribute to what turned out to be a most interesting parliamentary bill. It had a number of changes. We were extremely well served by the staff, and the recommendations that we have made, I think, are of importance for all parliamentarians, because they do restore the rights that we all assumed that we had and better protect the privileges that we hold dear in our New Zealand democracy. So it is a privilege to stand in the House and speak to the second reading of this bill and I recommend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00222e4a8f348f154e93848a78b9eea1ba8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e4a8f348f154e93848a78b9eea1ba8d\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I too join with other members in commending this Parliamentary Privilege Bill to the House. I will speak more generally in this contribution about the changes that we have made to the bill and save the details for the Committee stage when we come to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the previous speaker, Anne Tolley, as one of the other non-lawyers on the parliamentary Privileges Committee. We were a small club in the room, but we attempted throughout to try to ensure that what we were writing was not only legally correct but also understandable to a range of people. This was a challenge, but we took it up. I agree with Anne Tolley that all members of the committee contributed strongly to the piece of legislation that is in front of us today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI will make some reference to the comments that Kennedy Graham made towards the end of his speech, because I think they are important. I am not sure that the difference between what he said and what David Parker said is large, but there are a couple of critical elements that I think are different and are very worthy of debate. One of those I will mention now. I respect the points that he made particularly about the adversarial nature of this debating chamber and the way in which politics plays out under our system. I think it is important to note that this bill and this report of the select committee are an example of where some of the personalities that Dr Graham mentioned actually were able to come together in a way that is, I think, what he would like to see as the ideal operation of our system\u2014we sat down and we talked through the issues and came up with a solution that was one we could all agree on. We did that on the basis of the fact that this was a debate about the principles of how we run our system. There is no need in my mind for that to be done in an adversarial manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat we can never do, in my view, is take the politics out of politics. That is actually a debate about ideas and different ideas for how to achieve the things we believe in. I believe we should be respectful when we are doing that\u2014I will put my hand up from time to time under strong provocation from the Attorney-General\u2014which, occasionally, perhaps may not be evident when people are watching us in the House, but that is not to undermine our agreement on the importance of the principles of our democracy and our ability to be here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9a3389fa7b5494495df185119da801c\u0022\u003EHon Christopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s fixated on me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224030fbe8f28a41e18bc5d6cf9be1ab33\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think it might be the other way round. I have just got a feeling that it is the other way round\u2014from the Attorney-General. But this is a serious point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EKennedy Graham mentions the issue of climate change and it is an issue where I would like to be able to say there is a core set of agreements within this House, but, actually, in a question that the member himself asked yesterday, there is still a debate about the legitimacy of the scientific evidence around climate change. I find it utterly ridiculous that there would be a member of Parliament who might think that, but they do. The debate about that will become passionate, it will become strong, but that is part of what we do here. I do not think we should be unnecessarily adversarial, but the notion that there is a consensus out there on most things is one that I find challenging by the empirical evidence of what I see in the community. But in terms of the processes and the systems that we set up to manage that, yes, I think there is a lot of scope for us to find ways that we can work together. This bill is an example of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOur system is not static. I think that is very important. Kennedy Graham used the phrase of \u201Cusing some carpentry\u201D on the system. I think that is absolutely valid. If you look at the New Zealand system, we have constantly done that. You can walk out the back doors of this debating chamber and see the empty Legislative Council Chamber. We can stand in here today and know that there is a multiplicity of parties represented in this Parliament as a result of a fundamental change that we made to our system. So of course the Westminster system evolves and of course the model of it that we practise is unfamiliar to those who actually sit in Westminster, because of the changes we have made. It is not to say that we remain static. What I think is important, certainly to me and, I think, to my colleague David Parker, is that the core principles of our system have served us well. We must make them the best they can be when they are operationalised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe point that David Parker was making that is relevant to this bill is around the relationship between the judiciary and this Parliament and the push and pull that we see within that. I think there is something within the New Zealand psyche that is not too keen on making hard and fast rules and that likes the idea of there being a little bit of give and take and challenge based on a respectful set of principles, and that is what I believe this bill does today. It provides us with the clearest possible explanation of those principles. As the commentary to the bill says, \u201Cthe bill seeks to restore and reaffirm understandings of the scope of aspects of parliamentary privilege, and to consolidate and modernise existing legislation.\u201D, and it does do that. Underpinning it is the principle of comity, which is the mutual respect of the legislature and judiciary, which is what I have just been discussing. I think it is very important that that respect is noted and that we note that it is the core of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe fact is that parliamentary privilege is a vital part of our democracy and not for us as individual members\u2014a point made by others and also made in the report of the committee. We have it on behalf of Parliament and on behalf of the people whom we serve. Otherwise we cannot debate issues freely and frankly. Although from time to time there may be members of Parliament who misuse the parliamentary privilege process that we have, that is rare. The reality is that it is incredibly important to us to stand up on behalf of our constituents and to be able to use this place knowing that we can speak freely and that we have freedom of speech, and that there is not a sense of coercion or punishment\u2014to go back to the history lesson that Anne Tolley gave us before. We need to stand up for those principles. The Labour Party and I believe that we have done that in this bill. We will ensure, as the bill passes through this reading, that we make some substantive comments on one or two of the aspects where I think the bill needs explanation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn my remaining time on this reading, I want to do two things. The first of those is to go back to Attorney-General and Gow v Leigh, which is the case that started this particular process off. There is no doubt that the business of Parliament is beyond what is necessary for the operation of and speaking in this Chamber. We all know that in preparing material to come to this House, it is a proceeding of Parliament and that it is part of what we do. In another life I was one of those people who prepared material for Ministers to answer questions. That is a proceeding of Parliament. It is very much part of the process. Ministers, in performing their role as part of this parliamentary democracy, need free and frank and fearless advice, and when it is used, they need to know that they are using it as part of parliamentary business. So we have righted a wrong here, in my view, in terms of what was decided in Attorney-General and Gow v Leigh. That is important. This is not disrespectful of the courts; it is merely reasserting the fact that the business of Parliament is larger than the necessity of what takes place in this Chamber. It involves the people who work here and the business that is transacted in and around this building. I will come back to some details of that in the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other point is the one that has been raised already, which is the other case, Buchanan v Jennings, around \u201Ceffective repetition\u201D. I think we have made that very clear in this bill\u2014much clearer than it has been before\u2014and I think that both members of Parliament and those outside will be able to see that simply saying that you stand by a statement that you have made in here is not repeating that statement. It is ridiculous. We are asked every single day by journalists whether we stand by statements. We cannot avoid that. If a member of Parliament, having exercised their privilege to say something in this House that they know could cause them difficulties then goes outside of the House and expands on it, they will bear the responsibilities of doing so. What we have done in this bill is ensure that we now have a clear definition of effective repetition and have put to bed that case as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI commend the work of the select committee. I particularly appreciate the support that we have had from all of the officials. Mary Harris, Debra Angus, and Meipara Poata have been mentioned. I want to particularly mention Ross Carter and John Pike, who gave us excellent advice on both the drafting and content of this bill. This is a very important piece of legislation and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u00222c5db6bd8aac4f8ba845568cc8dabec4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c5db6bd8aac4f8ba845568cc8dabec4\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E People listening to this debate need to understand that the Parliamentary Privilege Bill is not just about protecting MPs from legal action in respect of statements they make, nor just about protecting their support staff, and it is not a self-serving measure for MPs or their staff. It is about protecting the right of representatives\u2019 freedom of speech, and it is about ensuring that advice given by their support staff cannot be used in legal proceedings brought by others. Nothing could be more important for our democracy. It is also important that it be noted that there is no real change here. The bill really just clarifies and partly codifies the operation of parliamentary privilege. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe bill seeks to restore and reaffirm understanding of the scope of aspects of parliamentary privilege and to consolidate and modernise existing legislation, following the judgment of the court in the defamation action Attorney-General and Gow v Leigh. Underpinning this is the principle of comity\u2014the mutual respect that the legislature and the judiciary must have for each other. It is about reciprocal courtesy and respect between the courts and Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe bill does not set out to limit article 9 of the UK Bill of Rights 1688, the first formal instrument from a Parliament protecting the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament. Nor does the bill seek to codify comprehensively or replace entirely with legislation every aspect of parliamentary privilege. It is particularly concerned with one aspect\u2014Parliament\u2019s freedom of speech and the associated matter of communicating proceedings in Parliament to the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENew clause 3A emphasises the importance of understanding context when dealing with questions relating to parliamentary privilege or proceedings in Parliament. It would provide clear direction that the Act must be interpreted so as to promote the purposes of the bill and the purpose of parliamentary privilege. The Privileges Committee has revised clause 6, which sets out the purpose of parliamentary privilege, to make clear the underlying justifications for parliamentary privilege. The privileges, immunities, and powers of the bill exist to uphold the integrity of the House as a democratic legislative assembly, and to secure the independence of the House, its committees, and its members in the performance of their functions. Without that protection it has been suggested that Parliament would probably degenerate into polite but ineffectual debating societies, and that puts the matter in a nutshell. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EConcerning the statements made outside Parliament, the approach taken in the amended bill is an evidential prohibition approach regarding liabilities from statements that effectively repeat statements made in proceedings in Parliament, commonly known as effective repetition, and relies on reinforced provisions for stays of court or tribunal proceedings in respect of specified authorised communications of proceedings in Parliament. I agree that this traditional approach, together with retaining the pertinent provisions of the Defamation Act, should provide sufficient protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENew clauses 8A to 8H reaffirm and clarify article 9 of the Bill of Rights 1688 in accordance with the main purpose of the bill. They also would make clear what \u201Cproceedings in Parliament\u201D, as used in article 9, means, and, in particular, seek to alter the law in the decision in Attorney-General and Gow v Leigh and would stop evidence being offered or received, questions being asked, or statements, submissions, or comments being made about proceedings in Parliament to inform or support effective repetition claims and liabilities in court or tribunal proceedings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe main purpose of this bill is to reaffirm and clarify the nature, scope, and extent of the privileges, immunities, and powers of the House. Article 9 of the Bill of Rights 1688,which is part of the law of New Zealand, says: \u201CThat the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any \u2026 place out of Parliament:\u201D. The approach taken continues to reflect directly some of the wording of article 9, particularly those words that \u201Cproceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament:\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENew clauses 8C to 8F would make clearer what is covered or excluded from the term \u201Cimpeaching or questioning\u201D in respect of proceedings in Parliament. I think that is the right approach. Although article 9 excludes evidence where the reason the evidence is offered or admitted is to impeach or question, it does not prevent evidence from being used, with no impeaching or questioning, to establish that something was said or done in Parliament as a matter of fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENew Part 1B deals with communication of proceedings in Parliament. It would simplify the framework for protecting the publishing and broadcasting of parliamentary proceedings. New clause 15 provides for a stay of court or tribunal proceedings that are commenced on the basis of a proceeding in Parliament or a document related to a proceeding in Parliament communicated under the authority of the House, such as broadcasts made under the authority of the House. This clause would also provide for a stay of court or tribunal proceedings for which a copy of such a document was the basis. Subpart 2 deals with qualified immunity. Qualified immunity would be available as a defence for fair and accurate reports of proceedings in Parliament or extracts or summaries of documents published under the authority of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe bill strikes a harmonious balance in the area where the privileges necessary to protect the independence of Parliament and the important role of the courts intersect. It is of the utmost importance that conflict is avoided by careful and respectful consideration of each other\u2019s constitutional roles. This bill strikes the right balance and reverses the decision in Attorney-General and Gow v Leigh and partly codifies the law of parliamentary privilege. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First wholeheartedly supports the amended bill and commends the committee for the very good work it has done on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00224d8fc57e079b43c3af8adef2381f9d23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d8fc57e079b43c3af8adef2381f9d23\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next member, I wish to advise members regarding the use of laptops. They may be used only when on the dropdown work surface, except when a member is speaking in debate, when they may be placed on the top surface of the member\u2019s desk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002225b588adbdaa43c5b6fe6d8c61a37234\u0022\u003EKaik\u014Dura (Te Tai-o-Marokura) Marine Management Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bdd4492592a448239774545563f15c79\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00225d381f65d2a047cfae4feed9a3608f3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d381f65d2a047cfae4feed9a3608f3c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Kaik\u014Dura (Te Tai-o-Marokura) Marine Management Bill be now read a second time. Over the adjournment I took my children to the \u014Chau Point area where the New Zealand fur seal exists in a truly beautiful spot. There were, in a small creek, over 100 visitors\u2014families with children\u2014watching a group of about 50 baby seals playing in a pond in a waterfall. That was that classic New Zealand visitor experience that is highlighted as one of the wonderful experiences in New Zealand in Lonely Planet\u2019s guidebook. That visit reinforced for me the value in this Kaik\u014Dura (Te Tai-o-Marokura) Marine Management Bill. It provides for a New Zealand fur seal sanctuary at \u014Chau Point. It provides for a whale sanctuary over that remarkable piece of coastline and ocean adjacent to the community of Kaik\u014Dura. It provides for a new and significant marine reserve, the Hikurangi Marine Reserve. It provides for five customary fishing areas for Ng\u0101i Tahu and the local r\u016Bnanga. It also provides for a tightening of, and more sustainable approach to, the recreational fishing along that treasured Kaik\u014Dura Coast. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to begin by acknowledging the hard work of Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura. This is a process that has gone on for 20 years. The tensions were sufficiently strong 20 years ago in the early discussions, when this community was at loggerheads over proposals for marine protection in Kaik\u014Dura. I want to pay tribute to every one of the members of Te Korowai who have come together with the proposals that are in this bill. I also want to acknowledge Colin King, the member of Parliament for Kaik\u014Dura. He advocated for these marine protection measures as a candidate, and it is fitting that on a day on which he gives his valedictory speech, this Kaik\u014Dura marine management bill is to make further progress through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a677d3495864357bea76c3dbd236a60\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: What did you push him out for? He was a good guy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287911bc93762464d928b0de30e0acea1\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, unlike the Labour Party, the National Party is rejuvenating, Mr Shearer. We are bringing new, bright talent through the ranks, and that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d029fc7ff544f718b5fa6fc7d766f19\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Why are you still here, then, Nick Smith?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227d8f61eca0944209cc7901fd88fdd32\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am substantially younger than those members opposite. I have not hit the grand old age of 50 yet, and I can promise members opposite that there will be a lot more good bills like this one in my name as we make progress, not just on marine conservation but on other issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge the work of the Local Government and Environment Committee and its former member Ruth Dyson; Labour, which has been very supportive; and the members of the Green Party, who are supporting the bill. I am not surprised by their typical rhetoric that it is never enough, but I do want to acknowledge their support and the agreement that has been reached to enable us to be able to progress this bill forward. I particularly want to acknowledge both those parties for their cooperation in allowing this bill to be progressed during the term of this Parliament. I actually think there is a pretty strong consensus across this Parliament that New Zealand has more work to do in respect of marine conservation and protection. I think it is the maturity of this Parliament that enables this bill to be progressed, given the long debate that has occurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIn respect of some of the specific changes that have been made by the select committee in its hard work, I want to acknowledge both Nicky Wagner and Maggie Barry for their hard work in bringing this bill back through. Firstly, there is the proposal to change the name of the group that will have an ongoing oversight of these new marine protections tools on the Kaik\u014Dura Coast to guardians. We have guardians for Lake W\u0101naka, we have guardians at Manap\u014Duri, and we have guardians in areas like the Fiordland coastline. I think it has been a good choice of the committee to use that term to aptly describe the ongoing role of the group that will be involved in providing an oversight of these new marine protection measures. I have also got to acknowledge that the select committee has tightened up the definition of the areas of the whale sanctuary, the New Zealand fur seal sanctuary, customary fishing, and the marine reserve. It is a sign of technology that previously we have not defined a boundary to less than 10 metres, but the select committee has said that, actually, with GPS technology today, we can get a greater degree of accuracy, even in an ocean environment. So that is being tightened up with the definition down to just 1 metre for the boundaries of these new marine protection measures. The amendments by the select committee also clarify the role of the Minister, quite sensibly, and they provide a broader role for the guardians in education around the marine environment. That, I think, is also important and is valued. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI do note in the minority report that the Green Party has made the point that it would like the marine reserve to be bigger, and that is a view I understand. But I also say that where you have these collaborative processes and where you have a community that is heavily divided over marine protection, I think this Parliament needs to respect the trade-offs, the gives and gains they have made. That is why the Government is not prepared to arbitrarily overrule that process and make the sorts of changes to the boundary of the marine reserve that the Green Party has promoted in its minority report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe bill as reported back from the select committee provides for a review of these marine protection tools after a period of 25 years. This was done in a pragmatic and, in my view, actually pretty cooperative way in discussions with the Labour Party and the Green Party. It is my intention to introduce a Supplementary Order Paper during the Committee stage to bring that down to a period of 10 years. I have discussed that with Sir Mark Solomon, the chair of Ng\u0101i Tahu. He too is happy for that compromise, which enables us to be able to progress this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EMuch has been said about the Kaik\u014Dura area. Few members recognise that the richness of the marine life in the Hikurangi Trench has been measured by scientists to be the most abundant marine life at depths greater than 1,500 metres anywhere in the world. In fact, the truly remarkable figure is that it has about 100 times more species than the second-next area with the most abundant marine life. That, I think, reinforces the value of this marine protection tool. I also want to note this measure in the context of the debate around regional development. If you ever wanted to see a rural town that was, 25 years ago, quite economically challenged, and a town that was struggling, turn into a town that has truly blossomed, it is Kaik\u014Dura, with its opportunities that the whale-watching and other marine tourism experiences have added to this community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill is good for the environment. This bill is good for the economy. This bill sets a good precedent for the way in which we develop marine protection. It is provides for the very first whale sanctuary that we have in New Zealand and the very first New Zealand fur seal sanctuary. It is also one that fishermen have already agreed on. They are practising the reduced recreational catch limits. It is a real model that other communities around New Zealand need to look to as we take greater care of the ocean environment. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002281faacefa1464da29a88f0d9e0e04e81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281faacefa1464da29a88f0d9e0e04e81\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E Can I first of all acknowledge the drivers of the legislation, the Kaik\u014Dura (Te Tai-o-Marokura) Marine Management Bill, that we are debating today, Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura, the Kaik\u014Dura Coastal Marine Guardians. The leadership demonstrated within that group by a variety of people, but specifically T\u0101 Mark Solomon, should be commended by everybody in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThis process is unusual. It was actually instigated by the Hon Chris Carter during his term as Minister of Conservation in 2005, in response to a concern from the Kaik\u014Dura residents and users of the marine environment that there was very little protection and that the legislative framework we currently operate under does not provide a strong opportunity for people to get together and get an agreement such as we are seeing delivered today. The report from that group was not presented for another 7 years. That is how much effort and time has gone in, but not because of arguments or any deliberate slowing down. There was no filibustering going on amongst this group. It was because of a genuine need to debate issues that are hard and that are contentious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe report was provided to the then Minister of Conservation and has been delivered by the current Minister of Conservation, the Hon Nick Smith, and I want to commend him for not just his work on this bill but also the way that he has responded to the comments from the Local Government and Environment Committee. We do not always have that response from Ministers, and it is really appreciated when, after the select committee has worked hard on an issue, that issue gets a considered response from the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe bill does some good things, and I think that is, of course, to be commended. The concerns that were raised at the select committee, however, which the Minister has alluded to in rather a negative fashion\u2014unnecessarily, in my view\u2014were that the agreement that has been reached is not consistent with best practice marine reserve protection. I think that is a tension that future Parliaments need to grapple with and resolve. You can legislate on top of local concerns or you can work with local stakeholders and come up with an agreement that might be less than best practice. There may be other opportunities to promote best practice and remove some of the concerns that local people have. In this instance, it is obviously fishing. We are excluding some areas from p\u0101ua or crayfishing. In particular, this area was, of course, a concern to local people. That is livelihood or that is their tradition, but the marine scientists whom we had appear before the select committee said this does not cut the mustard in terms of best practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESo the decision for the select committee was whether we go part-way towards what would be the best marine sanctuary and accept the consideration of this local committee that, as I said, has been working for 7 years on this legislation, or whether we say no, we would rather hold out for best practice. I think we made the correct decision in saying we should support the hard work and commitment that has been shown by local people, particularly given our understanding that at no time were they guided towards a framework of best practice marine reserve legislation. So, on that basis, we support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI do not think that the National Government should be claiming great credit for this. Actually, it has not done any work on it at all. It has been the work of the local people. The fact that it is coming before the House now and that it has been announced at least twice by the Minister of Conservation is really a bit of election year window-dressing to make it look as if the Government gives a toss about environment and conservation issues. I do not think that its track record is very good, and I do not think its future commitments are any better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe undermining of the Department of Conservation in terms of the funding that has been allocated to it through the Budget, in terms of the staffing resources, and in terms of the total absence of the advocacy role\u2014the core role of the Department of Conservation\u2014is a matter to be ashamed of, and I hope the Minister bows his head in that shame. There have been over 140 job losses at the Department of Conservation. It has really lost its connection with the community, and that it not the fault of any single staff member. It is because the constant restructuring and the centralisation of its functions has meant that that so important ability to understand, relate to, and respond to its community has gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWe know that provincial New Zealand has been hardest hit by these cuts. In Nelson and Marlborough just this week we have had further job losses announced. So it is really the heart of the Department of Conservation that has been cut out. We know that we have some critically endangered species that the department no longer has either the resource ability or the clout to be able to do anything about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWe know, in particular, of the issue of the critically endangered M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins. There are more National members of Parliament than there are M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins, and I want to change both those figures in the coming weeks. I want the number of National members of Parliament to drop and I want the number of M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins to increase. The very future of that subspecies, the future of the M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphin, is at risk because of the inability of the Minister of Conservation to stand up and speak on behalf of that critically endangered species. He has let the Minister for Primary Industries just ride roughshod over not only him on his own but also the future of that species. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWe know that in the proposal for the Ruataniwha Dam\u2014the proposal that would turn the Tukituki River toxic\u2014the Minister of Conservation made his views so clearly known that the Department of Conservation withdrew its substantial submission in opposition to the planned change, and the Ruataniwha Dam\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fafe4e827034b9fa71ab5f9061de657\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! We are on the second reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be785d8bbea84667b8a3e1baf8aad36e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Therefore, its submission was watered down to next to nothing. So although this bill should be trumpeted and should be supported, and will certainly be by Labour, it should not be a gold star against the Minister of Conservation, who has done no work in this space. The Kaik\u014Dura Coastal Marine Guardians did all this work. At the same time, he is doing so little in areas that need so much attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EOf course, the most damning aspect of the National Government\u2019s proposals has been one that has had to be put on hold\u2014that is, National\u2019s changes to the Resource Management Act. I want to put on record my appreciation to the Hon Peter Dunne, who actually read the proposed legislation from the National Government, and said National\u2019s proposals to change the Resource Management Act would gut the very principles of the Act\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228717194309e844629cdb082a5e6ba980\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! We are on the second reading of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210468f2b2ebe46e7887300a1e182341f\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and therefore he was not able to support it. So this bill is good, but it has to be balanced up against the bad things that are either being done, the terrible things that are not being stood up against, such as protection of the M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins, or the proposals that would gut the very heart of the Resource Management Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI just want to return to my commendation of the guardians. It was a very unusual select committee process that we went through in Kaik\u014Dura. We had submitter after submitter after submitter from local residents, and Ng\u0101i Tahu representatives, including T\u0101 Mark Solomon. We had representatives from the p\u0101ua industry, we had representatives from the crayfish industry and from the wider fishing industry. We had Forest and Bird representatives. We had representatives from whale-watching. So there was a wide range of representatives from the Kaik\u014Dura community all saying that they supported this legislation. I do not think that has ever happened before. I do not think we have had what is often a very controversial proposal, to have marine protection, to have exclusion of fishing from a specific area\u2014I do not recall any time when we have had such unanimous support from the local community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThis is the first whale sanctuary of its type. It is the first New Zealand fur seal sanctuary of its type. It includes five customary fishing areas, two tai-\u0101-pure and three m\u0101taitai. It establishes an advisory committee, and it introduces fishing regulations that are specific to this area and, of course, the overall marine reserve protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI want to just conclude by noting my appreciation of the advanced notice that the Minister has given us of his intention to move a Supplementary Order Paper that changes the review period from 25 years to 10 years. Labour will be supporting that Supplementary Order Paper in the name of the Minister. I think it is a good move. I think the idea of having a review of these marine protected areas is sound. There must be monitoring. There must be some science behind the review, so that we can look at what we have currently and what we may lose but certainly what we will gain from this marine protection. That will give us a very solid base for the review in 10 years\u2019 time, and I look forward to it. On that basis I am pleased to add my support to this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u002224d569fec65447db9055b5da24c70232\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224d569fec65447db9055b5da24c70232\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E E ng\u0101 reo, e ng\u0101 mana, e rau rangatira m\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. I rise with enormous pleasure to speak today to the second reading of this Kaik\u014Dura (Te Tai-o-Marokura) Marine Management Bill. It is a piece of legislation that is, as the Minister of Conservation alluded to at the beginning of this debate, unique in the sense that it is collaborative, it is the hard work of the community, and it is community-led and community-driven. Despite the political pot-shots that the member who just resumed her seat could not resist, this has gone ahead despite the Greens and despite Labour. Yes, there was some reluctant cooperation at the end, but only because they acknowledged that the level of work and support that came through\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022503661be68c446e9a3abfb5a4cf12ab7\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: We supported it, you stupid woman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204e0366a1b8446ecbdc2a45e65d1ad6c\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I object to that. I take offence at what that member has just said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d078b19ead054ddfa8a3f60f9fd2aa84\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has taken offence to the use of those words. I would ask the member to withdraw that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5acb2fc054249149ee00b0c2316f74b\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw\u2014but she is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b858688f3ce4a53b25b3ea9922a8b92\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Now, the member will stand, withdraw, and apologise for that comment. Once I have ruled, that is the end of the matter and there are no further interjections. The member will now withdraw and apologise for that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287d952625e4c4ab9b1e2933c93339555\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258efd468a0cb4f61b0abebf76e43efd5\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY\u003C/span\u003E: The interchange we have just witnessed is pretty much symptomatic of that member\u2019s contribution to what goes on at the select committee and in this House. I would have to say that the level of bitterness, the level of, I suppose, just jaded over-it-ness of that member is a clear indication that retirement is overdue\u2014long overdue, I would say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EGetting back to the bill, what we have in this piece of legislation is a hard-working community who have looked very long and very hard at the issues that concern them. They are issues that are of great moment to that community. I was in Kaik\u014Dura earlier in the year when the Prime Minister, the Minister of Conservation, and the Minister for the Environment made this announcement. I commend the very hard work done over very many years by the local member of Parliament, Colin King, who has done enormous work in this space and has kept the lines of communication and dialogue open in a way that the Opposition ranks, with their diatribe and bitterness, would not have been able to do. It would never have got to this stage under that kind of administration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWe, on the other hand, are very capable of listening to good ideas and of maintaining a position that is consistent and a little bit flexible. Marine reserves are something that the Minister of Conservation has been very committed to for a very long time, as has this Government. To find a collaborative local solution like this was an excellent outcome. The guardians, the kaitiaki, spent many hundreds of hours discussing this amongst themselves in a very broad-ranging group of fishermen, of local tourism providers, of conservationists, and of environmentalists. It was very interesting to see that when it came to the crunch, when we as the Local Government and Environment Committee went to Kaik\u014Dura in May, there were very courageous people who came forward, including the local branch of Forest and Bird, which stood against the national Forest and Bird\u2019s view of this, which was quite rigid and doctrinaire. It demanded that it be the same shape as other reserves, etc. There were all kinds of suggestions from high or from a distance, I suppose, which the local group, with very good awareness of what goes on in its community, overrode. That took courage and we commend it for that. Many of their ideas were listened to and picked up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI suppose that when it comes to collaboration, which is an alien notion to the Opposition parties, we look at something that has been really worked through in a lot of detail. I think to be able to come up with a model that does give us our first whale sanctuary, our first fur seal sanctuary\u2014and, as the Minister indicated, he took his children to see it in the recent adjournment. The select committee stopped off on the way back to Christchurch and had a look at the seal sanctuary, the baby fur seals. What an extraordinary and marvellous spectacle it was. I am extremely pleased that this piece of legislation will allow for that fur seal sanctuary, and for the baby seals in particular\u2014the baby seal creche, we call it\u2014to be safe and able to do their customary route down to the sea, under the road. They go and visit their mothers. It is a time-honoured thing that this particular species has done. It is again an indication of the care and level of attention to detail that the local groups brought to this that that aspect and that particular element for the fur seals was enshrined, and it will be in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWe have a community-led and community-driven piece of legislation that really covers an area of our territorial sea that includes the exclusive economic zone from the Clarence River, north of Kaik\u014Dura, to just north of Gore Bay. It is about 91 kilometres of shoreline and it covers about 4,686 square kilometres. GPS and modern technology is an important aspect of why this marine reserve is the shape it is and why it will work. When fishermen are out there, how do they know when they are in the marine reserve? It will be very carefully gone through and calibrated with GPS. That was something that the select committee did some careful work on because there were some approximations around this that were not actually very helpful to do the demarcation of this reserve. So that was a very helpful outcome from the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI think that the advisory committee that advises Ministers on fisheries and conservation matters in Kaik\u014Dura has also been a very worthwhile channel of information coming through. The Minister\u2019s decision to put a Supplementary Order Paper to amend the bill in order to have a review within 10 years is very much in keeping with what Sir Mark Solomon and Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura wanted to have happen. Again, we are listening, we are acknowledging, and we are following through with that so that this will be a very workable piece of legislation and a very workable bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EFor those of you who have ever visited Kaik\u014Dura, going back probably 20 years\u2014which I have done; I first went there in the mid-1970s\u2014you will know that it was a sleepy hollow. It was a place that really did not have very much of a bright shining future. The whales have changed that. The way that the community has got together and has been revitalised by the marine life and the marine reserves, which this bill will enshrine, has really paved the way for a brighter future. Kaik\u014Dura has the resources, the ability, the knowledge, and the passion for what goes on in its area to make this work terrifically well. I think that the gifts and gains part of this collaborative process is something that we could learn about as legislators and hopefully apply to other laws that we bring through as well. It is an absolute success story and a tremendous piece of legislation, which is why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u002288e40a04e1864cc1808cacee39ea4a28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288e40a04e1864cc1808cacee39ea4a28\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to put on record my disappointment at that speech from Maggie Barry because the Kaik\u014Dura (Te Tai-o-Marokura) Marine Management Bill is actually a very positive piece of legislation. My colleague Ruth Dyson, whom she chose to attack, was actually saying really good things about the process. I also want to put on record my thanks to the Minister of Conservation for the collaborative way in which he has worked with parties for this piece of legislation. I do not think we needed that level of negativity in that speech on a bill that we support overwhelmingly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI am disappointed by that, but I also want to thank Maggie Barry for the work she did as chair of the Local Government and Environment Committee. It is a committee that works extremely well together. It is a committee that is very, very busy dealing with a lot of environmental legislation. We had the privilege of travelling to Kaik\u014Dura to hear submissions on the bill, and I must say what a beautiful part of the country it is. I actually had never been there before. Ruth Dyson and I arrived at the airport and drove down the Kaik\u014Dura Coast, and it was just incredible to be able to drive down and see the seals right there, on the side of the road. We could see the families out enjoying seeing such amazing wildlife so close up, and it really makes you think how lucky we are to live in such a beautiful country. I was really privileged to be able to visit Kaik\u014Dura and to get a sense of what we were protecting. To the local member of Parliament, Colin King, who is retiring, I say that I am sure he will enjoy spending a lot more time in a very beautiful part of the country, and I wish him well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Ruth Dyson said, this process was started by Chris Carter, and it is good to see it coming to a conclusion here. We have a marine reserve up just north of Gisborne, where I live. That marine reserve was contentious. There is a view sometimes that marine reserves are locking up the ocean\u2014which I always find odd; the idea is that somehow fish are not going to move in and out of a marine reserve\u2014and there was concern about the impact on local fishing industries, because whenever we do this kind of legislation, we are dealing with a lot of existing rights. A lot of people already use and often make their livelihood out of that part of the ocean, and there is a fear that this would somehow limit their ability to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWell, I remember visiting the marine reserve just north of Gisborne with Chris Carter when he was the Minister of Conservation, 4 years after it had been implemented. There was a young woman there who was doing her PhD. She was going out and putting craypots down outside the marine reserve and inside the marine reserve and then comparing the amount of stock. Only 4 years after the implementation of that particular marine reserve in a part of the country where our crayfish stock is severely depleted and it is a real issue, outside the marine reserve she was getting less than 1 kilogram of legal-sized cray, but inside the marine reserve she was getting more than 30 kilograms of legal-sized cray. So the regeneration that had occurred in the crayfish population in a very short period of time was incredible. Not only that but we started to see the fish stocks coming back to the East Coast that we had not seen in a long time, because we had created a new environment for them. So it is a success story. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI have personally seen the value of marine reserves up my way at home, and I would like to see more of them. I want to mention just one area in particular, and that is the Kermadec Islands. I think that this is an absolute no-brainer that would have support right across the House. The Kermadecs are an absolute treasure for this country, and I honestly expected that this would be\u2014and maybe it is still to come\u2014an announcement from the National Government that it was going to put the Kermadecs into a marine reserve. To me that just makes so much sense. I cannot imagine why you would want to do anything around the Kermadecs that would be limited by having a marine reserve\u2014for example, mining, or anything else. I do not know why we are not also passing legislation to put the Kermadecs into a marine reserve. I certainly know that the Labour Party would strongly support that move, and I hope that the National Government does not have any plans for activities that would be contrary to the protection that a marine reserve would provide around that particularly important taonga for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EAs I said, we had some concerns going into this legislation, and the chair of the select committee, who has just taken her seat, mentioned Wellington Forest and Bird. I do not think it was being doctrinaire at all in raising concerns about the size of the marine reserve, the shape of the marine reserve, and the science of it. It was not doctrinaire, it was not being rigid, and it was not sitting in Wellington and dictating. It was simply raising very, very valid concerns, which were backed up by science, about why this marine reserve looks so different from other marine reserves. I want to thank Kevin Hackwell from Forest and Bird, who gave that submission, for being a very passionate and a very positive defender of our environment in New Zealand. He does incredible work, and I would never ever say that just because he so passionately believes that we should have so much more of our marine environment in protection\u2014and we agree with him\u2014he needs to be, well, degraded, really, in a way that he cannot respond to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThen we went down to Kaik\u014Dura. I have to say\u2014and Ruth Dyson and I were talking about it while we were travelling back from those select committee hearings\u2014that we were very moved by the submission process. When we sat down and listened to all the various submitters\u2014Mark Solomon in particular, actually\u2014all of whom had come together, and heard their points of view and heard why the marine reserve had ended up being the way it was, and why there was so little of the coastline actually in the marine reserve, I gained a real respect for their position and also gained a far greater understanding of the huge amount of work that had gone into this collaborative process to come up with a solution that had the agreement of all stakeholders. I think Kaik\u014Dura is probably one of the parts of the country where there is an exceptionally large number of existing interests that operate in the marine environment, so it was even more difficult to get everyone on board. We heard from crayfishermen, p\u0101ua fishermen, the Whale Watch Kaik\u014Dura people, local iwi, and local environmental groups. All of them came together and positively supported this legislation. As my colleague Ruth Dyson said, I do not remember a marine reserve process that has ever been so positive and where all the stakeholders have come together and said that this is what they have agreed on, this is what they want, and they are really, really passionate about this process, the marine reserve, and the protections they are putting in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe very important message they gave us was that they will build on this marine reserve. Do not think that this is the end of a process and this is all that is going to happen in terms of marine protection in the Kaik\u014Dura area. They will build on this, and because of the relationships they have developed through this process and because they have all listened and taken all the existing interests into account and respected people\u2019s points of view and come up with a local solution, that process will not end here. The process will continue and they will build on the protections that have been put in place. I have to say that I was really impressed by that, and I really felt\u2014as someone coming from the outside in\u2014that we needed to respect the huge amount of work that had gone into that local process. Even though we would have loved to have seen more, and even though we went in there with much greater concerns about how different this marine reserve was from the usual ones and about the different process that had been taken, I was genuinely very impressed by what came out of that process and I genuinely respect the wishes of the local people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOne of the issues of concern\u2014and we never actually got an answer to it, and I do not know whether the Minister has an answer to it\u2014was that we found that, in fact, we had to make an amendment to the bill because it was actually 10 or 20 metres out. The marine reserve boundaries we had in the legislation were wrong by about 10 or 20 metres because apparently the Ministry for Primary Industries takes GPS coordinates to only two decimal places instead of three. We asked why the Ministry for Primary Industries takes coordinates to only two decimal places instead of three, and we were just told that it is the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2019 policy. For us it seemed very bizarre that if you could take coordinates to three decimal places and actually get the marine reserve right, you would not do that. Why would you take them to only two decimal places and be 20 metres out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adbba9b51cbf40eb89f3804c625b9821\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: And what did they say? Because that\u2019s how they\u2019d always done it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a556aa798e0e4a0bbafbdf8aaa8724a8\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: They said that is how they had always done it. We thought \u201COK, that is strange.\u201D, and we never really got a response. It is not the biggest issue in the world, but it was one of those kinds of Gliding On moments, I think, where practicalities kind of went out the window a little bit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the officials and the very, very hard work they did on this legislation. The other concern I will raise is around the policing, because policing of marine reserves is also very important. The best fishing is on the boundaries of marine reserves, so you need to make sure that marine reserves are being policed. I have concerns about the capacity of the Department of Conservation to do that, given the cuts in funding and staff that it has had. You know, a marine reserve and the boundaries are only worth anything if we know they can be policed and those boundaries are not going to be breached. The very department we rely on to do that is under enormous financial pressure and has lost a number of staff, particularly in the regions. The policing of the marine reserve is one of my big concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EBut I congratulate the Minister on this bill. In fact, I congratulate Parliament on this bill, and I congratulate in particular the guardians, who did all the work in getting us to this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u00221f4a5c9b49654de589c6f813bea83b3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f4a5c9b49654de589c6f813bea83b3e\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. I rise to support the Kaik\u014Dura (Te Tai-o-Marokura) Marine Management Bill. The Green Party loves our oceans, we love marine reserves, and we love marine protected areas. We have a vision for New Zealand that every New Zealander can have their birthright and go swimming on oil-free beaches, or in a lake or stream, and to not get a one-in-20 chance of getting sick when they swim in some of our monitored rivers. It has a vision that Kiwis can go out and put craypots out with their dads, keep fishing, and\u2014I am a bit of a hopeless surfer\u2014that Kiwis are out there enjoying our surf and our treasured beaches. So I rise to support this bill, which is a small step in the right direction toward protecting the waters, coasts, animals, and species that we as New Zealanders love.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis bill establishes a new marine reserve, whale sanctuary, and other provisions off the Kaik\u014Dura coast. The Green members will be voting in support of this bill. We have voted for it throughout. However, in this speech, after the Local Government and Environment Committee report-back, I would like to note some of our concerns around the outcomes we see. First up, we support this bill. We would like to thank the committee, we would like to thank the new chair, Maggie Barry, we would like to thank the officials, and we would like to thank all the submitters, but most of all we would like to thank the local community and Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura which came together over 7 years to negotiate this. They used a gifts and gains approach to negotiate this, and the member is correct that they have been contentious in our country\u2019s past, but this one has had a measure of community support, which we welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIt is great to see some marine protections on this coast, given that New Zealand has only 0.41 percent\u2014that is, less than 1 percent\u2014of our waters protected in marine reserves. What we know from all the evidence\u2014from all the science\u2014is that they are important, they contribute to economic development in our regions, they provide jobs for the local communities, and, importantly, they actually work. They do protect the species and the ecosystems within them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe support it, but let us touch on those three concerns I talked about. The first is that this process and this legislation soon to be passed do not even meet the Department of Conservation and the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2019 Marine Protected Areas Policy and Marine Protected Areas: Classification, Protection Standard and Implementation Guidelines. The Government officials and Ministers who signed it off have done an awful amount of work on these guidelines over the years to make sure we have good, best-practice marine protected area policies like marine reserves, but in this case we actually see it being absolutely disregarded. What I would have preferred to see is a more effective marine protected area being established than what we see here. The first concern is that the guidelines have not been met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ESecondly, when it comes to the Hikurangi Marine Reserve, I think it is fantastic that we are using a marine reserve\u2014the strongest protection measure\u2014to protect this iconic feature of this coast, the Hikurangi Trench. It is an amazing feeding ground for whales and an important part of the local economy. Kaik\u014Dura runs off the whale-watching operations, which are responsible for numerous jobs in that community. It is great to be protecting it. However, what we see with this marine reserve is that it must be one of the oddest marine reserves in the country. We are talking about a 12-sided\u2014it is hard to describe\u2014marine reserve, covering only the bottom, the benthos, of the trench. The sides, the important biological and ecological diverse areas where there are a lot of fish, are not protected. We are protecting only the bottom. Only 1.97 kilometres of the coastline is protected. So what you see is this very odd, complex, multisided shape with very little area touching the coast. We have heard about the enforcement and detection fears with such a complex shape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe also heard from Dr Nick Shears, senior lecturer at the University of Auckland, who talked about the boundary effects. In any marine reserve, no matter how big it is, depending on the type of species that are resident in the marine reserve, obviously they are going to move on the boundary, be it a starfish moving slowly, or a crab or a lobster moving maybe a little bit faster, a crayfish, or a fast-swimming finfish, which can swim much faster. What the boundary effects show is that the actual effective size of the marine reserve is reduced by the boundary effects. When you have got such a complex, 12-sided shape, which is very narrow, the boundary effects are magnified many times. What we heard on the select committee from this expert was that the marine reserve\u2019s real impact on the marine environment and those protected species is limited because of those boundary effects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ELastly, when you look at the new whale sanctuary, it is fantastic that we are protecting the local whale species, but the Green Party would not have stopped just there. We do not think that just a whale sanctuary is needed; what we need is a marine mammal sanctuary. There are other threatened and critically endangered species resident in the area, such as the Hector\u2019s dolphin. By setting up this stand-alone whale sanctuary, there are no powers to protect those other species threatened by the Government\u2019s deep-sea oil drilling agenda\u2014from the gigantic underwater noise explosions of the seismic surveys through to the lethal fishing nets, which still haunt the Hector\u2019s and M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins\u2014and these animals are not being protected, because we are making only a whale sanctuary. The Green Party would have extended this and used the Marine Mammals Protection Act 1978 provisions to apply a more generous, wider sanctuary encompassing more species.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ESo, in summary, the Green Party supports this bill. We love our oceans. We want to protect them. We want to see New Zealand do a lot more than have just 0.41 percent of our waters\u2014less than half of 1 percent\u2014protected in marine reserves. We have got concerns around the process and the marine protected areas guidelines were not being used. The Hikurangi Trench is this odd, 12-sided, complex, hard-to-enforce boundary-effects-magnified marine reserve. We think that we could have done better. We could have had a larger, more uniform shape and that is what the experts have advised the committee. Lastly, the whale sanctuary should have been extended to other animals. But we will be voting in favour of the bill. I urge any interested submitters to read our minority report, which, while supporting the bill, points out these concerns in a bit more detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EOn a final point, the clock is ticking down. You also have to ask the rationale as to why this happening right now. It has taken 7 years and now the Government is trying to rush it through, and the reason is that the Government is incredibly weak when it comes to the environment. New Zealanders tune into the TV and they see those dolphins that live in this area\u2014the Hector\u2019s dolphin and their cousin, the M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphin. They see a Government that is risking the future of the dolphins, risking the extinction of the dolphins, because of its actions. We see a Government that is happy to still allow lethal fishing nets in their sanctuary. We have a Minister who is happy to sign off on great underwater noise explosions that can deafen the M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins\u2014the seismic surveys. We see a Government that in the last 5 years has covered one-third of the M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphin sanctuary in marine mining permits\u2014permits that the Department of Conservation itself says are troubling and likely to degrade the M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphin environment. With 55 M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins left, we should not be gambling with their future for the pollution economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to our sea lions, we are seeing them on a pathway to extinction because the actions needed to protect the critically endangered New Zealand sea lions is not happening. The Government, embarrassingly, backed to the hilt\u2014including with public subsidies\u2014Trans-Tasman Resources, with Dame Jenny Shipley as a director. It is a company that even National\u2019s Environmental Protection Authority could not grant the permit to mine the iron sands in the blue whale area\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc9c99266d61403e82a37559a70cbc52\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edcc63e23ef2473a8ca1acb12446500b\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Lastly, when it comes to the marine reserves, we have had a target for more than 14 years now to get to 10 percent. The size of this marine reserve is absolutely tiny. It moves only the decimal point when we come to the percentage of New Zealand\u2019s waters being protected. The Green Party will get us to not just 0.41 percent; we will go further than this, the step in the right direction. We will get us to 30 percent. It starts with the Kermadec Islands Marine Reserve, and I have a bill in my name on that, which overnight takes us from 0.41 percent to 15 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis election a lot of people get a choice on how we look after our oceans. We support this bill, but I can commit to the people of New Zealand that we would look after the M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins, and we would look after the whales, the sea lions. We would do more to protect our oceans. Ultimately, it is our birthright as New Zealanders to swim in oil-free seas, to surf our beautiful beaches, and to enjoy a coastline that has not been mined. I want my kids to grow up with a future with M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins not just hanging on, but M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins thriving. That is the future. That is the smarter, greener economy the Green Party is championing, and that is what we will be doing this September. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc4c37345e4b4aee997ac04c0f03a481\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc4c37345e4b4aee997ac04c0f03a481\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker, i t\u0113nei wiki o Te Reo M\u0101ori. E tika ana kia tukuna atu ng\u0101 ruarua kupu hei t\u012Bmata i t\u014Dku huihuinga \u0113ngari, e tika ana ng\u0101 k\u014Drero o \u014D t\u0101tou m\u0101tua t\u016Bpuna ahakoa he iti, he pounamu. N\u0101 reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E[Salutations to you, Mr Speaker, in this week of the M\u0101ori language. It is fitting that I utter a few words to begin with but concur with the aptness of the sentiments of our forefathers that even though it is few, it is a treasure. So greetings to you all in the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI have only recently come on to the Local Government and Environment Committee, and I have missed the bulk of the Kaik\u014Dura (Te Tai-o-Marokura) Marine Management Bill. In fact, I am quite disappointed that I hear the select committee went down to Kaik\u014Dura without me, because if anyone knows the Reo M\u0101ori, Kaik\u014Dura means to eat crayfish, and I certainly missed out on that opportunity down there. In fact, it is almost culturally insensitive to invite me on to the select committee after a visit to Kaik\u014Dura, but maybe for old time\u2019s sake we could have another meeting down there and I would get my colleague Moana Mackey to recommend a good restaurant for us to have our select committee hui in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe Kaik\u014Dura marine and coastal environment has unique biological features and is of historical, cultural, economic, and spiritual significance. It is a thriving tourism industry, as we have heard and as we know through Whale Watch Kaik\u014Dura, which contributes some $134 million to the local economy. Despite these attributes, Kaik\u014Dura has very little formal coastal and marine protection, hence the establishment through this bill of a marine reserve, a whale sanctuary, a New Zealand fur seal sanctuary, five customary fisheries areas, and an advisory committee on fishing regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe need to acknowledge the work of the local community members, who came together in 2005 and established themselves as Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura\u2014that is, Te Korowai Coastal Marine Guardians\u2014to provide leadership about the use and protection of Kaik\u014Dura\u2019s resources. We have heard that they developed the strategy over 7 years and they encompassed iwi representatives, local marine industries, tourism operators, and environmental groups. They set out the vision for the area and reached a consensus on the coastal and marine environment and how it should be managed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ETe Korowai in itself, and I will jump a step here\u2014the bill actually makes use of Ng\u0101i Tahu names in recognition of Ng\u0101i Tahu. I just want to explain about the name Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura. Te Tai o Marokura means the seas or the waters of Marokura. Te Korowai is a cloak. It was often used to lay down over something, as an analogy for ownership or protection or guardianship over whatever it was laid over. So Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura literally means the cloak of Te Tai o Marokura. Culturally, it means to lay the cloak or mantle of Ng\u0101ti Kuri, who are the iwi of that area, over Te Tai o Marokura, caring for the seas around Kaik\u014Dura. I want to also make a distinction in relation to Ng\u0101ti Kuri around Kaik\u014Dura. There is also Ng\u0101ti Kur\u012B up where I come from, in Muriwhenua, who are the iwi around Cape Reinga, Te Rerenga Wairua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EAnother M\u0101ori name that has been used in this bill is Te Whata-Kai-o-Rakihouia. A whata is a raised platform where food was stored on top of it. Making reference to the evidence of Maurice Manawatu, on behalf of Te R\u016Bnanga o Kaik\u014Dura and Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu when they submitted to the Canterbury Regional Council, they explained the name of Te Whata-Kai-o-Rakihouia. They say in their records that Waitaha were the first people to have arrived at Te Waipounamu. Waitaha arrived under the leadership of R\u0101kaihaut\u016B in the Uruao waka at Whakat\u016B, which is Nelson. They arrived there in about AD 850. From here, R\u0101kaihaut\u016B led a party inland and down the island, but his son was Rakihouia. Rakihouia led another party in the Uruao waka, down the east coast, and landed at Kaik\u014Dura in the area that we have been talking about\u2014the east coast of the South Island. Along the cliffs at Kaik\u014Dura, Rakihouia and his wife Tapuiti were busy gathering food. Men were lowered down the cliffs in that area with flax ropes to secure eggs and young birds from the nests there, and the precipitous seafront has since borne the general name of Te Whata-Kai-o-Rakihouia\u2014the Lofty Storehouses of Rakihouia. This gives a bit of context around at least one of the names that is mentioned in this bill, and it also goes back to what I said earlier, that this area has cultural and spiritual significance to the tribes\u2014Ng\u0101ti Kuri, in particular\u2014down there in Kaik\u014Dura.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe heard from the Minister about the Hikurangi Trench, and I just want to endorse what he has said about it in terms of the biomass that is in the Hikurangi Trench, which is part of the reserve area. Just taking a report from the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research (NIWA) website, it talks about the Kaik\u014Dura Canyon, which is part of the Hikurangi Trench. It says: \u201CNew Zealand\u2019s Kaikoura Canyon is a \u2018biodiversity hotspot\u2019 containing far more life than seen before at such depths.\u201D When this area, the Hikurangi Trench, was surveyed, NIWA took digital photographs in different parts of the canyon, at various depths. The photographs were analysed to determine the abundance of large invertebrates and fish, as well as what they call levinspirin, which are signs of life on or beneath the sediment surface. I hope I pronounced that correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EA digital map of the floor of the Kaik\u014Dura Canyon was generated using bathymetric data. It was collected during the voyage by a multi-beam echo sounder. I am not sure whether many people know what a multi-beam echo sounder is. Certainly not many people have one of those in their garage, next to the lawnmower, I am sure. But this data was then used to estimate the total area of the canyon that could be considered to be a biomass hotspot. The analysis of fish abundance was undertaken using information gathered from the photographs and trawls taken during the voyage, as well as the bottom trawl. But what the outcome of this said is that the Kaik\u014Dura Canyon is one of the most productive benthic\u2014which means ocean floor\u2014deep-sea habitats yet described, exceeding by 100 times the highest biomass measured for large invertebrate at those particular depths. This productivity may contribute significantly to the surrounding ecosystem, which includes deep commercial fisheries for hoki and orange roughy, which in itself is a reason why this reserve, the Hikurangi Reserve, has been created.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI also agree with what Gareth Hughes said about the shape of the Hikurangi Reserve and the fact that less than 2 kilometres of coastline is part of this reserve. I take his point that the odd shape of the reserve boundaries tends to undo a bit of the good of the boundary. However, we have also heard how the boundary, the GPS coordinates, were measured down to two decimal places, which gave it a margin of error of 10 to 20 metres in terms of any particular position on that boundary. The select committee has changed that so that it now measures down to three decimal places, with a margin of error of about 1 metre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThere is also a little issue with slipways in the reserve where people would launch their boats. We had to make a change because if people launched their boats and there was a rock or a bit of seaweed in the way of launching the boat, they were not actually allowed to move that rock or that bit of seaweed. Anyone who did so would have broken the law, so it was best decided that instead of putting people into that sort of situation, we would change it so that the slipways were taken out of the reserve area. It encompasses only a very small area of some 20 square metres or so. We thought that instead of putting people in the situation where they may be breaking the law by removing rocks or seaweed or debris from the slipways, we would just take the slipways out of that reserve area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI am proud to be part of a Labour Party that is supporting this bill. It is supporting the economic, the cultural, and the spiritual well-being of Ng\u0101ti Kuri and Ng\u0101i Tahu in the Kaik\u014Dura area. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1ebdbb8dfa0497faac1f176cc172ef8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1ebdbb8dfa0497faac1f176cc172ef8\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on behalf of New Zealand First on the Kaik\u014Dura (Te Tai-o-Marokura) Marine Management Bill. Having sat on the Local Government and Environment Committee for this legislation, can I just say that this is one of the more pleasing pieces of legislation that we have had to consider in the last 3 years. Across all parties there was a real commitment to ensure that this bill progressed, and it progressed positively, for the best outcome of the marine environment of Kaik\u014Dura, that special place, and down the coast of the Kaik\u014Dura area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EAs a select committee we visited Kaik\u014Dura to hear submissions, and we were all incredibly impressed with what the community had done there. Across whole areas of the community over 7 years, Te Korowai o Te Tai Marokura, the marine group, had put it together\u20147 years of consultation. I was impressed to see submissions there from the local cray fishermen and from the p\u0101ua divers, who are directly affected by all of this, of course, with their livelihood and their income. They were on board with it, as well. So at the end of the day this will improve the whole marine environment down the coast there for the mutual benefit of everyone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe tourism aspect is immense in Kaik\u014Dura now with the whale-watching and the New Zealand fur seals there, and people are just wanting to go there to see the marvels of nature and see what is so abundant there. There is a significant underwater canyon out off the Kaik\u014Dura Coast that is so abundant with fish life and all sorts of marine life and what that offers\u2014and it is the breeding ground for the whales, which stay there because of the abundance of plankton and the abundance of food\u2014and that incredibly deep canyon provides such a marvellous area for New Zealand to cherish. We were a little disappointed, of course, that there were comments about the extent of the boundaries of that canyon and whether they went far enough. However, New Zealand First is certainly of the belief that they are sufficient. They do represent a very, very significant area of ocean out off the coast, and by having that, it certainly will provide the basis of ensuring that the whales and other marine life in the area there are given an incredibly important area of water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ESimilarly, we went as a select committee to the breeding ground\u2014or not so much the breeding ground, but the creche, as they call it\u2014for the fur seal pups. It was marvellous to go up the inlet and up the stream\u2014it is about a 5-minute walk off the main highway there\u2014to see 40 or 50 pups, or maybe more, frolicking in several pools there. Apparently, what the pups do is they leave the mothers, they leave the parents, and they go up the stream during the day while the parents are off getting food and all that sort of thing. The young pups were all playing around and jumping around and having a great time. It was just marvellous\u2014marvellous\u2014to see, and that is all included in the sanctuary. It is amazing. So the whole area of the New Zealand fur seal colony there is protected under this bill as well. Again, that is just such a marvellous thing, which New Zealand can cherish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ECan I also pay homage to Ng\u0101i Tahu and local iwi and hap\u016B, who, under the leadership of Sir Mark Solomon and many other leaders in the M\u0101ori community there, have put so much effort into this legislation. Again, it was very heartening to see how much they were involved in it and how there was so much buy-in from them, working in with the cray fishermen, working in with the p\u0101ua divers, working in with the tourist operators, and working in with all sorts of other interests there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ECan I especially pay tribute to the Department of Conservation people in Kaik\u014Dura, who took us and showed us the various areas of the sanctuaries and the marine colonies. What a marvellous job the Department of Conservation is doing in that area. I also pay tribute to the fisheries inspectors in the area. They are just tremendous people, they were great hosts that day, and they really are dedicated to what they are doing in the area, and they are locals. You know, they are working with the locals, and they are locals. They are part of the local community, but they are very much providing that Government input, that legislative, regulatory input, and ensuring that it all works well for everyone. So I was very, very pleased about the collaboration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EAs we have heard from other speakers, this would probably be the most significant collaboration across a community in terms of developing a marine reserve, a whale sanctuary, and other things such as customary fishing areas and an advisory committee to oversee it. This would probably be the most comprehensive ever marine reserve in New Zealand, and it was very, very heartening to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First absolutely does support those initiatives, and we were very pleased that the select committee was very collaborative in being able to work through it. However, there was one area that we questioned, and it was about those coordinates under the GPS. I think officials are still looking into that matter, because there is no real reason why those coordinates could not go to three decimal places to ensure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7b7c49964804fe69f7a33f4bab35ecf\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250675f4c70c749be93e3e4a18b39dec2\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: What was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb822a689264b55aa218157b9b1ac17\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: No, you\u2019re right\u2014absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da2efc9f941a46b484d52c05a15f56db\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014to ensure that there are no anomalies or errors, or that certain rock areas or whatever fall just outside the area simply because we did not go to a third digit. I hope that common sense would prevail. As we all know, New Zealand First\u2019s policies are common sense\u2014it is just common sense. As you will see on the billboards around New Zealand in the coming weeks, it is common sense that we apply common sense, and in this case it would be common sense to just simply add one more decimal place and make sure that these particular boundaries in these particular designated areas are not 20, 30, or 50 metres away from the area they are supposed to be protecting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIn saying all this, we are increasingly aware of the fact that we are the guardians. Humans are the guardians of our planet, the guardians of our oceans, and the guardians of our land. In this case it is most important that we do all we can to ensure that what we are guardians of is taken care of. The number of marine reserves around New Zealand are increasing, from the very first one at Goat Island, up on the Leigh coast north of Auckland, which is now a marvellous area, to inner-city, urban ones, such as at Long Bay on the North Shore\u2014which, again, has been marvellous in the Long Bay area\u2014and many others around the coast. I visited the one in Akaroa, which was established and extended just in the last year. Again, it is very, very significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EBut it is important that at the same time we do not neglect other issues that are outside the marine reserves. Such an issue has been raised in this House today, with the M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins. I am very, very disheartened by the snail pace progress that has been made to protect the wonderful little M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins. When you look at these beautiful little creatures, there are only 55 left of them in the world. They are all in New Zealand, and they are mainly off the west coast of the North Island, running down from Manukau Harbour down to Taranaki and, indeed, perhaps some are even down as far as Whanganui. When we are looking at marine reserves and at what we are doing here, the onus is also on us to look at the wider impact on our oceans. We need to ensure that with beautiful little creatures like this, and there are only 55 left of them left, we have got to do something to protect them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ESo, similarly, in New Zealand First will be working and doing our darnedest post-election, if we are in any position to influence the Government of the day, to ensure that a much faster pace is taken in terms of protecting the M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins. Indeed, we will extend that protection to the Hector\u2019s dolphins, too\u2014they are under threat, but not under the same level of threat\u2014and ensure that New Zealand does play its part internationally in terms of protecting our marine species and our marine life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe last dolphins that went into extinction were in China, on the Yangtze River\u2014the round-nosed dolphin, I think it was called. It would be devastating for New Zealand\u2019s image if the next species of dolphin that was to become extinct was in New Zealand, after China. That would be a terrible message. We cannot allow that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EToday I was very pleased to meet with Professor Elizabeth Slooten and Gemma McGrath\u2014and indeed, in the past, it was Christine Rose\u2014who are doing a marvellous job on working to protect the M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins. In their survey we hear that New Zealanders overwhelmingly\u201480-something percent of New Zealanders\u2014say that we have do something about this and that we have do something about it very soon. So New Zealand First commends this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022 data-id=\u00221b81eba8555847629d723fbc9434f272\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b81eba8555847629d723fbc9434f272\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e ng\u0101 rangatira huri rauna i t\u014D t\u0101tou Whare i roto i t\u0113nei wiki o Te Reo M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, Mr Speaker, and to you collectively, the revered throughout our House, in this, the week of the M\u0101ori language.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to make my contribution at this second reading of the Kaikoura (Te Tai-o-Marokura) Marine Management Bill. I do also endorse the spirit of cooperation and collaboration that has been embodied in this bill, right from its beginnings and through the hard work of Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura, and all of the stakeholders who were involved in that process. Although I am not a member of the Local Government and Environment Committee, as the member for Te Tai Tonga, I also have deep connections to Kaik\u014Dura through whakapapa, through Ng\u0101ti Kuri, and I have also been able to enjoy all the various aspects of fishing that the wh\u0101nau enjoys along that beautiful coastline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221579ef9c19264fbf930300d66e582984\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve enjoyed the products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022807ecec8135845f0b25ddd9193599f07\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague here, Mr Mallard, has enjoyed a good kai, as well. I am happy to host my whanaunga Kelvin. Any time he wants to come down there, we will make sure he has a good h\u0101kari. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EThis has been a collaborative approach from the community. I was pleased to be involved with Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura in its early stages, back in 2005, I think, when I was working for our own iwi in our fisheries. I am familiar with a lot of the commercial stakeholders\u2014the p\u0101ua management company, the cray or lobster management company, the wet fish stakeholders, the customary fisheries groups, and also the recreational groups. It is definitely great to see this work come to fruition and I know that the fisheries were just one of many stakeholders. We can add in the tourism industry, which is flourishing and has totally transformed the Kaik\u014Dura township over the last\u2014coming up to\u201430 years. There are also the environmental groups and, of course, the wider community. That spirit of cooperation has flowed on, and I acknowledge the work of the local member, Colin King\u2014it is sad for him to be departing this House, but I am sure I wish him well and I am looking forward to his valedictory speech\u2014and also the cooperation that flowed through to the select committee. I also acknowledge the Minister for his amendments, which he will be putting through in the Committee of the whole House stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EThis is a great initiative in terms of management measures for the marine environment, conservation, and protection. I commend the select committee for some very practical amendments that it has made\u2014specifically, the place names. I acknowledge my colleague Mr Davis, whose abilities in Te Reo far exceed my own and who gave very thoughtful and helpful translations for the names. The amendments that have been made to the names reflect more of the Ng\u0101i Tahu mita or, perhaps, the Ng\u0101i Tahu way they would phrase certain place names. Those changes have been made and acknowledged in the bill. That is quite appropriate, being that this is Te Wiki o Te Reo M\u0101ori\u2014M\u0101ori Language Week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI do also commend the work of the committee for adding greater specificity to the actual boundaries of the marine sanctuary and reserve areas. By being more specific, it has protected my very secret mark for bluenose. There are some really good fishing spots there. By adding greater specificity to the areas, it is very good for the local fishermen as well, so they know exactly where they can fish and where they are not allowed to fish. So it is great that the committee was able to hone in on those areas. Much has been mentioned about the size and the unusual shape of the reserve area. One marvels, really, at the aquatic life that is in such abundance through the Hikurangi Trench. It is obviously a feeding area and a navigation area for whales and much other aquatic life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EWe also know the fact that the boundaries did not include the sides of the trench or certain areas of the Hikurangi. I believe that this is a good thing because in certain instances there may be aquatic life or species that could actually be of benefit to New Zealand. I say that only to the extent that I am aware from my past experience working in fisheries that there is certain aquatic life, such as certain sea sponges, that is unique to that area. The research is ongoing, but scientifically they have shown unique properties. One such property is cancer-fighting properties from certain sea sponges and other aquatic life\u2014in this instance, it was a sea sponge. We do not necessary want to close the door on what might aid research to aid the world. I know that the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research is doing a lot of research into understanding the particular sea sponge that comes from that particular part of the Kaik\u014Dura Coast. It is the only place in the world where this particular sea sponge is found. So we do not necessarily want to close the door on what might be very much groundbreaking research on unique attributes found in this particular species of sea sponge. So I can understand, to that extent, that a complete reserve status throughout all dimensions of the whole entire trench could, indeed, preclude what could be groundbreaking scientific discoveries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI would also like to touch on the regional development opportunities. Kaik\u014Dura itself, as a township, is a great example of regional economic development. We know the history of Whale Watch Kaik\u014Dura and the families of, in particular, the K\u0101ti Kuri hap\u016B who were involved in establishing the whale watching business. Through the establishment of that business, it has transformed the economy of that whole township. I do acknowledge also the work of the late Hon Parekura Horomia. Yes, there were five families who did mortgage their houses to actually set up that Whale Watch business, but it was the good work of the Hon Parekura Horomia through the Community Employment Group\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223b4f5df24fa47f1aa4e27b8db3d5849\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: And do you know who helped a lot? The Minister in charge of regional development at the time, Annette King\u2014she gave the first grant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f306bf329f0f4196bab6915ad41e318d\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and the very good Minister at that time, the Hon Annette King, who gave the first grant through the Community Employment Group that gave the tautoko to actually get that Whale Watch business established. So I do acknowledge that work, which has aided in the regional economy. Of course, everyone in the Kaik\u014Dura community wants to protect their coastline and they all support these measures. Just in closing, I had a chat to a cousin of mine. I said: \u201CWhat do you reckon about this bill, cuz?\u201D. He said to me that this bill is a great bill\u2014just paraphrasing his words. He said: \u201CCuz, it saves our kai moana.\u201D We know how important to the tai\u0101pure the m\u0101taitai measures that are contained in this bill are. That is going to really strengthen, protect, and enhance the customary fisheries along the coast, and so we support that. And, finally, I hope that this piece of legislation is a model that we can apply around the country. If we can go up to Tai Tokerau and further north to the Kermadecs and apply the same marine management reserves there, all the best. Kia ora t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002241cfcc2ff03e461d8578feb797a216eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241cfcc2ff03e461d8578feb797a216eb\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. E ng\u0101 mana, e ng\u0101 reo, e ng\u0101 waka e rarau mai nei, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, the Speaker of the House, and to you all, the powers, voices, and canoes settling in here.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI am pleased to take a call on the Kaik\u014Dura (Te Tai-o-Marokura) Marine Management Bill. The Green Party supports the creation of more marine protected areas around New Zealand and the protections contained in this bill. That is why we are supporting it, because it does advance marine conservation. In New Zealand we are about a century behind on protection at sea compared with where we are on protecting land. New Zealanders generally think that about one-third of our marine area is protected, according to a survey that the World Wide Fund did in 2011, but, in fact, less than 0.5 percent of our waters are protected as marine reserves. So this bill is a small step towards improving that statistic, but, as my colleague Gareth Hughes noted, we do have some concerns about it and believe that it does not go far enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBefore I move on to that, I would just like to acknowledge, as others have done, the huge amount of work that Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura did in discussing and identifying areas for protection and coming up with the package that has been put forward in this bill. I certainly enjoyed the visit that the select committee made to the Kaik\u014Dura area, hearing the strong submissions from members of Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura and other members of the community about the bill, because when law puts in place the views of the community, it is generally good law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut this bill could have been improved if the marine protected areas guidelines that were developed by the Ministry for Primary Industries and the Department of Conservation had actually been applied to the process of identifying areas for protection as marine reserves and dealing with their boundaries. It is in that area that we have some significant concerns, because, as the Minister of Conservation noted, the Kaik\u014Dura Canyon is nationally and internationally recognised as a hotspot of biodiversity. When you apply the marine protected area guidelines, that is about ensuring that marine reserves protect a representative range of the biodiversity that is present. The guidelines also talk about avoiding edge effects, and here we have a very odd-shaped marine reserve with two lobes and about 12 different sides within a very irregular shape that submitters have said will cause difficulties with enforcement and will also compound the problem of edge effects. It is widely known with a lot of the marine reserves here and overseas that fishers will often sit on the outer boundary of the reserve because the reserve assists in increasing marine life, obviously. That fishing will have an impact on species within the reserve. Where you have an odd-shaped reserve that in parts is less than a kilometre wide, those edge effects will be intensified because of the very odd boundaries. That will limit the effectiveness of the reserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThose concerns were set out in strong submissions by the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society\u2019s national office and the Marine Sciences Society. Like Moana Mackey from Labour, I strongly reject the claim by Maggie Barry that the submission by Forest and Bird was doctrinaire, because it was based on very sound science about the impact of edge effects and about international best practice in terms of marine reserve design. It was very disappointing that the statutory agencies involved in the Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura forum process, in that collaborative process, did not help the forum to implement best-practice guidelines or the Marine Protected Areas Policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe applaud the change that the Minister proposes to bring in a Supplementary Order Paper to reduce the review period from 25 years to 10 years, and we hope that that review will address these issues of the extremely complex, 12-sided boundary and the fact that the reserve does not protect all the areas that it should do. The experience around New Zealand has been that where you have had significant opposition to the establishment of marine reserves, that has generally changed after they have been established, and you have had strong community support. The Leigh Marine Reserve from Cape Rodney to \u014Ck\u0101kari Point\u2014there was a lot of opposition to that. Yet when the Department of Conservation and others did a study in 2008, they identified that over 375,000 people visited that marine reserve annually, and they contributed $18.6 million a year to the local economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo the fact is that this Hikurangi Marine Reserve protects less than 2 kilometres of the coast, which is much less than any other marine reserve in New Zealand in terms of the length of coast protected. Even the tiny postage stamp P\u014Dhatu Marine Reserve, or Flea Bay, in Canterbury, which is only 215 hectares in size, protects nearly 7 kilometres of coastline. Here, with the Hikurangi Marine Reserve, it is going to protect less than only 2 kilometres. That is overlooking a major opportunity for recreational tourism, because the coast at Kaik\u014Dura is very accessible, given that the State highway runs along it. As we have seen with the Tonga Island Marine Reserve in Abel Tasman National Park, that resulted in a lot more visitors to the Abel Tasman, more accommodation providers establishing, more water taxi operators, and more kayak companies. So there was a major boost in economic activity associated with marine protection, and the same at Leigh. I think that if the reserve had been bigger along the coast so that it was easily accessible to people wanting to go diving and snorkelling and to see marine life where it is unfished, that would have increased the significant benefits that Kaik\u014Dura already has from nature-based tourism around the whale-watching operation. So bringing that review period down to 10 years is certainly a good idea because we hope that the community will recognise that there are substantial economic, as well as ecological, benefits from increasing the marine reserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe certainly support the collaborative process that has operated here, but we think that it definitely needs to occur within the framework of the national policy\u2014the Marine Protected Areas Policy\u2014where you have scientists on the forum, because there were not any scientists on Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura. We note in the regulatory impact statement of the bill that Te Korowai o Te Tai o Marokura identified the marine reserve as an area that would not have a major impact on fishing activity. So that focus on ensuring that the fishers are not too badly affected by the marine reserve and the lack of a strong science input has, I think, led to the very odd boundaries and the strange, two-lobe shape of the reserve, and the fact that it does not protect a lot of the canyon walls above 800 metres depth and that it has excluded areas like some critical seamounts, which we know are a hotspot for biodiversity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo the opportunity for the review is where we hope some of the shortcomings in the marine reserve will be addressed, but it is a bill that we support because it does take marine conservation forward. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EName changed to Kaik\u014Dura (Te Tai o Marokura) Marine Management Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201407221e8d692b208c40ff972a1ddbfc635d7b000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.22 p.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"