"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002265088baeaebd4492b4edaaf17804cb14\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 15 SEPTEMBER 2015\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f198868e67bc4c45a36b02461d01674e\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 15 SEPTEMBER 2015\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002277d8bd963b074ff2b4895ac5eaf23866\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c218aa3beda942d1b73c35861b4075bd\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u2014Conduct\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7f7c95d0d564ad489e7114a76beefd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7f7c95d0d564ad489e7114a76beefd8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On Thursday last week I undertook to review the recording of proceedings in relation to interjections made during question time. The level of interjection during question time on Thursday was unacceptable. My office and the Clerk\u2019s Office received numerous complaints from members of the public about the level of interjection and the difficulty they had in hearing answers to questions. This particularly applies to those members who sit near me\u2014those to my immediate left and right\u2014because my microphone is live at all times and picks up interjections from those members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe debating chamber is a place of robust political exchange. Interjections are permitted during question time, as long as they are reasonable and not disorderly in themselves\u2014Speaker\u2019s ruling 187/6. Loud, ongoing interjections make it very difficult for members of this House, let alone the public, to hear proceedings. I intend to take a tougher approach to disorderly interjections, which may mean constant offenders will be asked to leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWith regard to question No. 11 last Thursday, the level of interjection was unacceptable, and I acknowledge that I should have moved to give more assistance to a relatively new member. However, the level of interjection was heightened by attempts to table documents that it seems were readily available to members. It is the responsibility of the member seeking to table a document to ascertain whether it is freely available, and I warn all members that the risk of misleading the House in this way is serious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThere have been complaints from some members about the length of replies to questions. I remind all members of the requirement to ask short, relevant supplementary questions without including excessive opinion. Replies must also be concise\u2014Standing Order 386(2)\u2014which means not only short in terms of the number of words used but also no longer than need be in order to answer the question adequately, as per Speaker\u2019s ruling 196/5. Replies will, generally, be longer than the questions that they are answering. I will be the sole adjudicator of how long a question is to be answered for, and that will be greatly affected by any level of interjection. If there are interjections, then a Minister will certainly be given more latitude in responding to those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EFinally, all members need to take care when they do interject. Unparliamentary reflections on any member of this House are not acceptable and will be dealt with severely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022df9aad0f9f5b4f2a8f41797aa7fde37c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df9aad0f9f5b4f2a8f41797aa7fde37c\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There are just a few things out of your ruling that I would like to ask for clarification on, and that is, first of all, around the tabling of documents, where you have indicated that the onus is on the member to ascertain whether a document is publicly available before it can be tabled. I just want to get some reassurance from you that a best endeavours approach is the right way to go, because it is not always possible for members to search every available website to see whether something is available. If they have received it under the Official Information Act, for example, it may or may not be publicly available, and a best endeavours approach should, I think, be taken to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe second is around interjections. I think that there is a challenge here in the ruling that you have made. One is that often long, lengthy answers or provocative answers will actually elicit disorder amongst members of the House. And if you are indicating that disorder stemming from that therefore gives Ministers licence to go on even further or to be even more provocative in their answers, then I think that that is actually going to lead to more disorder in the House, not less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2624462d3da4fa4835a1a5fc4709233\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2624462d3da4fa4835a1a5fc4709233\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Also on the day in question there was a very audible derogatory comment from a member directed at yourself, Mr Speaker, so I presume that you have considered the tapes\u2014listened to the tapes\u2014and will be aware of that comment. Is it your intention to leave the matter with the warning that you have given the House today or should it be taken somewhat further? I realise that if there was a privilege case to be brought, it should have been brought as soon as possible, but given the severity and the ridiculous nature of the comment\u2014two almost contradictory things\u2014it was decided, certainly on our side, to leave your consideration to the undertaking you had given to the House last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022aebc74a11d664cc3ab87573e65104560\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aebc74a11d664cc3ab87573e65104560\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I first address the points raised by Chris Hipkins. With regard to tabling, the point that I am making in that ruling is that I will be asking the member who seeks to table whether they have done some work to ascertain public availability. There will be occasions when an answer is given that, to the best of their knowledge, it is not publicly available. That will be perfectly acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWith regard to the point about ongoing provocative answers, if the member had listened, I said quite clearly that I will be the sole adjudicator as to the length of answers, but I am equally saying to Ministers answering questions that once the question is answered, that is sufficient. To go on and then add provocative words is unhelpful, it leads to disorder, and I will be dealing with that more severely than in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWith regard to the point raised by the Hon Gerry Brownlee, I looked at the transcript of Hansard. I then watched the proceedings as available via Parliament TV. I could hear no interjection at all delivered by any member, so if it was, it was not available for me to adjudicate. If there was an unparliamentary remark, on this occasion I think that that member may well get off very, very lightly. If it is an interjection that occurs in the back half of the House, it is often heard by members who sit in the back half of the House. It may not necessarily be picked up by Hansard. It may not be picked up by me in the position that I sit. But if the members study that ruling carefully, the final paragraph said that there had been, on occasions, some very unparliamentary comments hurled across at various members. That will cease, or I suspect that members who persistently do that risk being named in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ed0d566ea184d628e67b2e27d2b01c8\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a4c225a658d64531b3693b554e844203\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022886d0cde2a6a46e184dd7b0f34caeccc\u0022\u003EHousing New Zealand\u2014Dividend and Performance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00220f57e6350113434eb8510fb20e62fc3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f57e6350113434eb8510fb20e62fc3f\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: What did he mean by his statement, \u201Cwe want Housing New Zealand to be doing the best job it can\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c83b9e9f4b4a4b8fa798de4a4339c4ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c83b9e9f4b4a4b8fa798de4a4339c4ab\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I meant that we want Housing New Zealand to be doing the best job it can. I went on to say that Housing New Zealand \u201Cwill continue to be by far the biggest provider of social housing in New Zealand. But the experience of countries like Australia and the United Kingdom is that having non-government organisations involved in social housing, alongside the Government, is a better way of doing things.\u201D That is why the Government is trying to get community housing providers involved in running social housing and not leaving it all up to Housing New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc01dce6364d49ee902e6be267ebc3ba\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Does it help Housing New Zealand to do the best it can when he is already taking $118 million out of Housing New Zealand, and is he planning on taking any more out this financial year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223444bee6783f4e9dadd575ee0702a3f6\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is talking about the dividends that are paid, then under the Crown Entities Act all surpluses have to be returned to the Government. That is the law. We have never requested more than that. That has been in the order of, in recent times, about $100 million off an asset base of $20 billion. Last year alone we spent $398 million on maintenance and upgrades\u201440 percent more than the highest year under Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ae9414841ce40eca8f36d26782446d2\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, why does Housing New Zealand\u2019s statement of performance expectations show the Government taking another $336 million out in this financial year than capital contributions to the Crown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022837d5d16f5af453c90bdd0b02510166c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The member would need to direct that to the Minister responsible for HNZC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275bc615bcb924793a86d9b7d611bba40\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Given that Housing New Zealand is reducing its planned maintenance due to budget constraints, why is he taking a total of $454 million out of Housing New Zealand this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213863bbce35a4d1b99f9925ae5047a09\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not believe that Housing New Zealand has budget constraints.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e12ef59512748109860b1a92b4fe27d\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he continue to use Housing New Zealand as a cash cow, while refusing to fix homes that are killing New Zealand children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272289db9bdc740779d2932cf5ff70129\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is a very interesting cash cow\u2014one that you give more cash to than you take off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f3182f1d6dc4e43a615e84882210480\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Is not this the truth: his Government is asset stripping Housing New Zealand to the tune of $454 million, while Kiwi children are dying in cold, damp State houses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6bc179b48824129847932ccfc6bd29d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is far from being the truth. The reality is that under this Government we have tidied up the abysmal state that we found Housing New Zealand in. I know that members over there are looking down. They are hanging their heads in shame at how little they did. We have spent $30 million on providing heating in about 10,000 properties. We have installed thermal curtains in 18,000 homes since February 2013. We have retrofitted insulation to 53,400 homes. We have spent more on maintenance, 40 percent more, than the absolute highest point ever under Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf54af8e558446d9ad1d38ff46eea48d\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: If State housing is a priority for him and his Government, why are there over 3,000 families on the waiting list; children dying in cold, damp homes; and a shortage of State houses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0469c934516427e98779c5536026dbf\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is the very point about why the Government is expanding income-related rents, not just to Housing New Zealand homes. Actually, the social housing sector can provide stock that can be used to help those people in need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022491aa1ab2d814943b1fb44857cb9e24a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: If Housing New Zealand is going so well, why did one of my constituents have to ring Housing New Zealand seven times over a period of 6 months after their contractor left a hole in the ceiling and the roof, so that all the hot air was leaving, her children got sick\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f025b87d2f049e1a02690b48574f036\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume his seat. The question has been asked. It does not need to be that long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a963c310bf4460c8d0da432c8e5290e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that he needs to direct those specific questions to the Minister. I do not have that information; I am not responsible for that. But what I can say is that any issues that might be there under Housing New Zealand now are far fewer than they were when that member was a Minister in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b89af8c00f84722adf9138c1d7656fe\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014Resilience\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u0022bac704a91e904057bb49d61037768508\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bac704a91e904057bb49d61037768508\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: How is the Government\u2019s programme of economic reform supporting the resilience of the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf2ed4aabd524e089541b86d69830bdb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf2ed4aabd524e089541b86d69830bdb\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E It is certainly not to declare a crisis and panic when dairy prices fall. The Government\u2019s approach is to support the resilience of the economy through responsible fiscal management, a floating exchange rate, sustained investment in infrastructure and education, and supporting diversification and investment in research and development through the Business Growth Agenda. As a result of this programme, we are seeing higher household savings, more moderate borrowing growth, a smaller current account deficit, and improvement in New Zealand\u2019s net liabilities offshore, all of which improve the resilience of this economy to external shocks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc28b45693a042e091eb8e33ac897454\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: How does our economic resilience compare internationally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4a330b17d0648029a40a0c8b595af72\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It compares pretty well, provided we stick to the policy that delivers the following four factors: a broadly balanced Government budget, net debt less than 40 percent of GDP, economic growth greater than 1.5 percent, and interest rates high enough to reduce them. New Zealand meets all of these criteria, and only four other OECD countries do. So by this measure we have a pretty resilient economy compared with most developed countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8c206f0fefc45c3861be2fe74ca7a3c\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: What recent report has he received showing growth in the New Zealand economy, despite recent falls in dairy prices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022636dda9d3fd34d24a50278b66e227549\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Reports show continued expansion of manufacturing and services, which together make up three-quarters of the New Zealand economy. The BNZ-Business New Zealand Performance of Manufacturing Index showed the sector expanded in August, the 35th straight month of expansion since the Labour Party called the manufacturing crisis. The BNZ-Business New Zealand Performance of Services Index showed that services, which make up two-thirds of the economy, are growing at their fastest rate in over a year. So these are positive indications that, outside of the dairy sector, the economy is growing moderately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2563219d60c4ff2915f1ee265ae1da0\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to draw your attention to Speaker\u2019s ruling 197/5, which you have also referred to in the past, about Ministers not bringing a political party into an answer where they have not been involved in the questioning. You indicated at the beginning of question time today that you intend to set a higher bar for questions and for answers, and so I want to get some reassurance from you that you are also going to be enforcing that Speaker\u2019s ruling, because repeatedly throughout his answers today the Minister of Finance has been referring to policies of the Labour Party\u2014and, we could argue, misleadingly\u2014and if that is going to be the nature of the debate, then I think your higher standards are going to be difficult to enforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022268039f430f645ab824c41648f60c9f6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly had not picked up any drawing in\u2014I may have missed it, but I had not realised that the Minister was continually bringing in an Opposition party through those answers. I thought the answers were reasonable, but I will certainly keep a more vigilant watch in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022431e69cb672a46b98e27abb9f90531e3\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: What options does the Government have to support the economy, should economic growth end up being lower than expected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283ca02a38cf14faeb30701d16f86a645\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Government continually updates its plans, depending on changing circumstances. In the past, we have increased spending and supported New Zealand families through the global financial crisis and the Christchurch earthquakes, and then tightened our belts when times were better to get back into a position where we could deal with further shocks to the economy. At the moment, growth is around 2 to 2.5 percent, and we do not believe the kinds of measures we pursued after the global financial crisis are currently warranted. But, of course, if significant global risks eventuate, then we may have to consider them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d6cb9330b45c4e17af03668b2661f91a\u0022\u003EOverseas Investment\u2014Silver Fern Farms\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec5c94afecb7469f89bc72bfc521f423\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec5c94afecb7469f89bc72bfc521f423\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00222ad161d6558241f3a9789e6679f248a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ad161d6558241f3a9789e6679f248a8\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223a95e22ae264fa19f95fbae8e718aab\u0022\u003EFletcher Tabuteau\u003C/span\u003E: Why did his Government reject an invitation from Silver Fern Farms within the past year to discuss potential investment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c060aac8bdc74467b08fcd885c6ccf89\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have any details of where that invitation was sent. The member needs to direct the question to the Minister who received it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8c928293b474ced96b6b3dad1b09266\u0022\u003EFletcher Tabuteau\u003C/span\u003E: Can he not see the irony of taxpayers forking out $145 million to the Chinese-led Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank while a Chinese State-owned enterprise seeks control of our largest beef exporter and our second-largest export industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b49cb0832740f0a8abd76feb8a9493\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand has made a capital contribution to the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, like we do to the World Bank and others\u2014it is on call\u2014and, actually, it can be used for projects around the region that New Zealand companies may well be involved in. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226d817df012746c28b11cced919e974c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is the sort of interjection I was talking about earlier. If the member on my right-hand side wants to be going early, I can assist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e453613b5fc14614aa8f968aecad2e92\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: What material difference in circumstances supports his statement \u201Cit\u2019s not really a matter for the Government\u201D in relation to taxpayer support for Silver Fern Farms, as opposed to his Government\u2019s corporate welfare given to overseas-owned MediaWorks, which received a $49.8 million taxpayer loan, which, the Minister Amy Adams said, \u201Ctook the financial pressure\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d18b39ff4594aa28c969f0cf355c26a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Again, that question is too long. The member needs to refine it. The Prime Minister can answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdfa8616745744f2b04ed0ffd02e2f68\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, Silver Fern Farms is not asking the Government for money. It is in the process of looking to, obviously, raise more capital, and one of the interested parties clearly has been a Chinese entity. In relation to MediaWorks, I happen to remember that some time ago that was done to a range of entities. It was to allow them during the global financial crisis, for all of those licence holders, to basically pay, over time, their licences at above commercial rates, and the Government actually made money on the deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226106f766ad864cffa4f281f7ebe8986e\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: What material difference in circumstances supports his statement \u201Cit\u2019s not really a matter for the Government\u201D in relation to taxpayers\u2019 support for Silver Fern Farms, as opposed to what some commentators have described as his Government\u2019s treasonous $12 million bribe to a Saudi billionaire to support a farm we do not even own?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cbcdee802c44220bbce640cde443e67\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: In the first instance, as I said earlier, when it comes to Silver Fern Farms, it is not asking the Government for money. When it comes to the agribusiness hub in Saudi Arabia, we see that as an opportunity, actually, to potentially strengthen and further opportunities for New Zealand companies in the very big market of the Middle East.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224979cfa1efc64a47a178d6063df284c0\u0022\u003EFletcher Tabuteau\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a written answer received only today confirming that Mr English declined an invitation from Silver Fern\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c51d306bc7e4c57b7b985ff394f99fb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Can I just clarify that when the member says he has received it today, is the member saying it has not yet been published?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c7d99a97e1f47419343027b23e6b7ef\u0022\u003EFletcher Tabuteau\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022254b65f6abd448f6bb34b1e2dc0a67c3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Then I will put the leave. Leave is sought to table that particular answer. Is there any objection? There is none. It can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002246fa8beaccd7463ea6fb2572c88d2fef\u0022\u003EUnemployment\u2014Reserve Bank Forecasts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002208a723e11b174972a1b0a9c28e9898ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208a723e11b174972a1b0a9c28e9898ad\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with the forecast of the Reserve Bank that unemployment will rise to 6.1 percent by March next year; if so what new action, if any, will he take to avoid this happening?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1d24e24e2944c63a33a21b369f064c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1d24e24e2944c63a33a21b369f064c8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Reserve Bank is independent. It is not a matter of whether I agree or disagree with its forecasts; those are its forecasts. By way of example of the Government\u2019s action to improve employment, today we released an update of the export markets work stream of the Business Growth Agenda, the latest step in a programme of reform designed to support businesses to invest another dollar and hire another person and to back that up with confidence in the stability and credibility of the Government\u2019s leadership on the economy. The effects of this have been to see 69,000 more jobs in the last year and the average wage now $10,000 higher than in 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a44595363b764a569ce83fa69aa9b784\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he still stand by his statement in the Budget that unemployment will fall below 5 percent in 2016?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022560b1e87b9434f7cbaa39fe4b99203e8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: That now looks unlikely because the economy is a bit softer since then, mainly because of the substantial drop in the terms of trade, so it would not make sense to stand by forecasts that were made in different circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262e1559b3cbf4c768821ad493b921c0f\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, then, is it acceptable to him that there are now 13,000 more people unemployed than in September last year, when he was re-elected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022976eda0b47ff407fa4ec32ff0f4a3d99\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it is undesirable\u2014there is no doubt about that. The Government, starting 4 years ago on welfare reform and following through to the investment approach we are now applying, has probably a more sophisticated approach to the non-working population and Government support for it than any previous New Zealand Government. The member could do well to study that policy, because it is a worthwhile one for the Labour Party to adopt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c959264d64da46caabac50a4f10b0ffe\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Is he comfortable that under the Reserve Bank scenario more than 150,000 people will be unemployed, and is this not a sign that he should adopt some new policies to deal with this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cb82632343c43a5b5c3c1599ec6175d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Of course we are uncomfortable with people being unemployed. It happens that New Zealand, of all developed countries, has one of the highest proportions of its working-age population available for work and in work. So we have proven to have very good job-producing capacity, but, of course, we do not think that that is enough. That is why, for instance, we are refreshing the Business Growth Agenda, which is an ongoing iterative process with the business community to build its confidence in investing in new jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223445bf605624dabaa75e7764277b177\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: So is the summary of his answers today that he has no new plans to do anything to see unemployment get down to levels that he promised New Zealanders they would have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216c984ff73704228b58c4af556bb6eeb\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I think the member would agree that that is a fairly lazy summary. In fact, some new plans have been issued today by the Minister for Economic Development, on top of any number of others issued in just the last couple of months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002297a2e21377a943169b7443397774a4c3\u0022\u003EBusiness Growth Agenda\u2014Export Markets\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd4beacf438e4984994dc83118b81407\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd4beacf438e4984994dc83118b81407\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: How is the Government helping New Zealand businesses to grow their exports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u002265fa2adc138542499cabea975db4f040\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265fa2adc138542499cabea975db4f040\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E This morning my colleagues Murray McCully, Tim Groser, and I launched the updated export markets work stream of the Business Growth Agenda. The report lays out an ambitious trade development programme over the next year, to strengthen existing relationships in China and the EU while also making the most of significant opportunities in South-east Asia and Latin America. As part of our trade strategy, we will be working closely with industry to develop a longer-term policy for other key and growing markets. The updated export markets work stream sets out an ambitious programme for further growth, not just in the economy generally but also in investment and, importantly, in jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d51431f12af42988c6bbf7340fb4b72\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing to strengthen our relationships with South-east Asia, China, the EU, and Latin America?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e281b664c634acdad69b9c9c5304732\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: As part of the 40th anniversary of the ASEAN - New Zealand relationship, we are working hard on a new strengthened framework with South-east Asian nations to mark this milestone event and further raise our exports in this growing part of the world. In China we are working on an upgrade to our free-trade agreement. We are pursuing the launch of a free-trade agreement with the European Union, while also continuing negotiations on the multilateral Trans-Pacific Partnership and the ASEAN Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership agreements. In Latin America we are developing a new partnership with the Pacific alliance countries, a trade bloc that consists of Mexico, Peru, Colombia, and Chile. As part of that commitment, Minister McCully announced that next year we will be opening a new embassy in Bogot\u00E1, the capital of Colombia, to grow our presence in South America and serve as a base for New Zealand Trade and Enterprise and Education New Zealand in that region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2a99584608449adbd6cc25b8f1af60e\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: What other measures are contained in the updated report to help grow New Zealand\u2019s exports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228db3361306aa40f1a166c08dfe4d98d7\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The export markets update contains a total of 23 new projects. Alongside the ambitious trade strategy I have already mentioned, the report sets out the importance of maximising the benefits to exporters of existing trade agreements, like the new Korean free-trade agreement; developing the world\u2019s most efficient and cost-effective border management system to support trade and people flows; to grow New Zealand Trade and Enterprise\u2019s portfolio of companies; to grow international education and tourism further; and to develop and grow our international marketing brand. These are all designed to increase economic activity and job growth in the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f93676c30a3490db602f1974719ddf2\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u2014Collaboration with Other Parties on Climate Change Policy and Flag Referendums\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f91276e537df4248bf1678903833d12d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f91276e537df4248bf1678903833d12d\u0022\u003EJAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his statement made yesterday on the flag referendum that \u201CI\u2019ve been very strongly of the view I think it\u2019s in New Zealand\u2019s interests to change, and I, you know, I hope the political parties can see past the petty politics of that\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00221d118399e9b34f53b91a4fa59e37d4c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d118399e9b34f53b91a4fa59e37d4c3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and can I commend the member on such a stylish tie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224be6150af5874cc3a65b8817cb6b6446\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Would he also say that it is in New Zealand\u2019s interests to see past the petty politics that are preventing cross-party consensus on climate change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a40ec9efa6a24d5887fa1405ea7e8666\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is always happy to have discussions about climate change but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acccc45f41884ca387b3434fe8be9564\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Do you like his tie now? How\u2019s the tie looking now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa275f13fced4e0f8fbd7fc6e09b0200\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. My wife bought it for me, and I quite like it too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bd36b45bf114954a57bc6ea165e8e8a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4eb95c79f3f434c99cbcdb03144f642\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is always happy to have discussions about climate change but we have over the years developed policies that we believe are in the right interests of New Zealand. We are going off to the 21st conference of the parties in Paris with those settings. But, you know, in reality, even if we had a discussion with the Green Party, we would never reach anywhere near its level of ambition because that is at the very outer edge of what I think most people would find acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213149de4777a4c6091afd95a52667b9f\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to Treasury advice from October last year that calls for greater policy certainty around climate change and says: \u201CProbably the most significant [step] would be to secure a greater degree of political party consensus about climate targets and ETS settings.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226372f9f6c31b4509947a3d111f4c17d1\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not recall that specific bit of Treasury advice but I would just caution the member about having Treasury as his poster child, because let me assure you that Treasury\u2019s advice to the Government, as I best recall, was to have a far less aggressive target than the one the Government actually set. It pointed out that the per capita cost to New Zealand was significantly greater than other countries, and from memory, at one point I think it was at least suggesting that New Zealand\u2019s target should not be a reduction but should be an increase of the 1990 rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281ac4e82575c4ccb8124c476567944a9\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Treasury poster boy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4619a4876d345ce8356ec0535c17766\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: I think he does a disservice to Treasury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022868822af642f4709a849f688fc7596c1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I know that it was a response to an interjection on my right. It would be helpful if the member would now just ask his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b6edc768ea416085eb23489b943e25\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an Official Information Act request from Treasury received by my office yesterday with official advice on important decisions on climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243ffff86b7d440d78140f8d993656bc4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that particular document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb6abd827a24ecaa7a1df2bce6c2cb1\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Would he agree with Waikato University management school\u2019s 2013 business survey which found that \u201CLack of Government leadership has seen companies stop measuring their carbon footprint or put their carbon strategies on hold.\u201D, and is it not now time for this Parliament to show this climate leadership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1b51e3e01b24f4d86f0a980d2911632\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248e02c358d8d4b21ae73db8cb576c950\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government chosen to act unilaterally when it comes to setting climate change policy targets, rather than build a cross-party consensus like David Cameron\u2019s Conservative Government in the United Kingdom?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4dfa7420ec54aefa705c63da5dc53a3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have not looked at the process that David Cameron has gone through in the UK, but in terms of the Government\u2019s position, as the member will accept, there are a wide range of implications as a result of the climate change target that is set. We believe we have set that in broadly the right place. We are going off to Paris, and we will see what happens as a result of those negotiations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022803368ad4a45444cb123c28b772a4153\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: If, as the Treasury advice says, the business community itself has called for political party consensus, why does he insist on playing petty politics with climate change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9d4c93a8eb24d7f8e8873bcfde79304\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, I am not sure that they have, and, secondly, I think the member confuses a consensus in consultation with agreement. I can assure you that if the member wants to see the Treasury advice, I am sure that somewhere along the line it can be dragged out of the files, but the Treasury advice, as I best recall it, was to do significantly less than the proposal that the Government is taking to Paris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b41b925ced1a488f806de3d3533bf084\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he believe that it is important to get cross-party support for changing the flag but it is unnecessary for climate change? Where is the statesman in you, Mr Key, when it comes to the climate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288b4892ea720402a864d31fe5341eb3c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, here is an old-fashioned thing: we went to the election with a set of policies and, as the Government, we carry them out. We are just calling out political parties that went to the Government with the same policy and now cannot work out what they want to do other than play petty politics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022146bf32039de42009d4d4a2d260dfa1d\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, Mr Speaker. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265b66115799445629c941cfccee357f5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Mr Brownlee\u2019s memory might be shorter than mine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f70306e17501496aa1fb05d731f55bb0\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Will he accept my offer, made publicly, to meet to discuss ways in which he and I and the rest of this Parliament can restore public confidence in the flag referendum process in order to achieve a result that he wants and that many New Zealanders would also like to see?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fe84b854e3a418c8b4d16b75c72b024\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am more than happy to meet with the member, but the point I would be making publicly is the same point I would make to him now, and that is that I am not going to agree to a yes or no referendum\u2014this Parliament voted that down. But most important, actually, is there are now, I think, a couple of million New Zealand voters who are quite interested in this process and are interested in potentially weighing up the options. But if they want to decide that they want to change the flag, they ultimately need to know, firstly, what they are going to and, secondly, in reality, we accepted the best advice we could get from the officials, which was that unless you have a contender against the current New Zealand flag, you are very unlikely to get 50 percent or more of the people involved. The whole way through, actually, we have gone through a consultative process. If the member wants to do that, we are more than happy to have the discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c25e2f3ccddd4127a6b2915784aa407a\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u2014Flag Referendums and Military Deployment to Iraq\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022128c452d1d714560a2096880b44d68ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022128c452d1d714560a2096880b44d68ce\u0022\u003ERON MARK (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002236b6fbd0ac5f4e8fb9d04df61b308649\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236b6fbd0ac5f4e8fb9d04df61b308649\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f19b8f812ec947c590e11eb47188abb6\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement yesterday: \u201CThere was a process and that Red Peak, like all the other flags, went through that process. I\u2019m not the head of the committee.\u201D; if so, why is he now considering a fifth design?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5a7d220195040c2b7f522a9c7c133c1\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, the answer is yes. In answer to the last part of the question, in an act of conciliation, and the like, I have tried to say to the Labour Party that if it wants to actually honour its election pledge, and actually go out there and back a fair and even process\u2014in other words, man up to the words that it went\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f5973a43e174901a54690c1b6e0122c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The question has been answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3771ba976d44ca697a1b144a0391362\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: What has persuaded him to corrupt the process that his Government passed into legislation in this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1042ec38f724b199800162e92c843c4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely nothing. But I am known as a person who is reasonable and fair, and if the Labour Party wants to come around and have a nice cup of tea and talk about how there could be a fifth flag on the ballot paper, and then run a fair, reasonable process\u2014because its members privately go out, I am sure, and tell people, that they want a change of flag\u2014then I am happy to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220373825247104b12a0030b2f60dd15c6\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Does he consider the Red Peak design his saviour for his failed flag change project?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb570b62e089461da7e0cbe35396c52b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I think the process that we are going through of considering whether the New Zealand flag should change is actually a good one. I think it is an issue about national identity and national pride and about whether we as a young, multicultural country at the bottom of the world want to demonstrate to the world that we can have a new, iconic flag that represents who we are. You know, I understand that some political parties take a different view on these matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228786d5ac645942bcbac629078e2c98b3\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: On a different statement, does he stand by the statement he made in the House when he announced the deployment of troops to Iraq that \u201CThe deployment will be reviewed after 9 months and will be for a maximum 2-year period.\u201D; if so, can he tell the House why, after less than 5 months, he is now considering deploying an extra platoon of infantry to Iraq?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a596709b6fa04c9dae089573f66c69f3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Either of those two supplementary questions, the right honourable Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245e37d15a05f49e9bd3c59b6a278f42d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have no knowledge of that at all. We made a commitment that we would have around about 150 people, or slightly fewer than that, in Iraq, and, as I understand it, that number is going to be consistently maintained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002255b3d730aa2f4abcbd2af2b369b0b4f9\u0022\u003ERegional Economies\u2014South Island\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00224d9e23e568144d4f8a14480565a1e017\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d9e23e568144d4f8a14480565a1e017\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: What concerns, if any, does he have about the state of the South Island economy, given the ANZ Regional Trends report shows that it shrank by 0.8 percent in the June quarter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022778487fa13194f339a0d2c866b4e8f7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022778487fa13194f339a0d2c866b4e8f7a\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E The ANZ report does not, in fact, measure economic growth, but ANZ\u2019s own composite mix of confidence measures and a selected range of other indicators. Therefore, the ANZ report cannot determine either positive or negative growth. Secondly, it is important that even in the measure of ANZ that particular quarter was a negative one, but prior to that it has been very strong. Most interestingly, he highlights the South Island economy, when by most measures the South Island economy has been seen to be very strong. For example, unemployment at the end of the June quarter in the South Island economy was just 3.9 percent. So I do not have the sorts of concerns that Mr Clark is suggesting I have, but, of course, we are always continuing to work and improve in all regional economies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022542208d8c6214322837377f9b7e17c4d\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Will the South Island enter recession in the September quarter? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208cbbb3d49974fbaa36b83902ebc0fab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I did not catch that. I will ask the member to start again, and could I ask for less interjection from my right-hand side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228994d62aa08b4a41a1f1690f580865f4\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Will the South Island enter recession in the September quarter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef94d8845f1d4ac19dde105fd1b854d4\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The measure that the member uses for the June quarter is not an economic growth measure, so, by definition, if he is using that series it cannot help him determine either growth or a recession. But I would note that the South Island economy has been particularly strong. For example, in the BNZ-BusinessNZ Performance of Manufacturing Index, out just last week\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1a7dadafb3449f4b8de240827450cdf\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9cf183bb61145c3b97d9dd1873cbabd\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the Canterbury region, which includes Nelson, Marlborough, and the West Coast\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e11636a0839340f38068ae3da9858b65\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I apologise to the Minister; I have a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229be04d25ade042ea99c4d0bb16364d23\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was an incredibly straight question\u2014I do not think they come much straighter than that\u2014and the Minister has not addressed it and is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb84407e7f54a0592c1d3ce55042d86\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member needs to be a bit more familiar with Speakers\u2019 rulings. He is hoping for a yes or no answer to his question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022257dbff0eecb46b4b4d2f24f1c1c63c9\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Or an \u201CI don\u2019t know\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1694f715844400d849cc08cb6cdb3a3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Or \u201CI do not know\u201D. He has got no right to demand those three options. I think the Minister was making a genuine attempt to give an answer, and if the Minister wishes to continue he can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fc3e1371ef3465a85fd11bbd3023ad4\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: In the performance of manufacturing index for August, for example, which is in the September quarter, the wider Canterbury region was at 54.6 and the Otago-Southland region was at 64.6. So that and the employment figures and a number of other indicators suggest that no, the South Island is not entering a recession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fce8b9d569244cfdbc24464d8e6f1a71\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that there has been a 22 percent\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aa1137758594ebca370c742e8a0468c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That interchange between both front benches is exactly what I am talking about. I made a fairly definitive ruling. If it needs to be reinforced I can do so by asking members to leave the Chamber. I hope it does not get to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294b335164559451589268a0040a15a98\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232439d95404a4adcba25f7b5c3809c6f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Dr\u2014Chris Hipkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232e530f640864493bfa477b49823390f\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Not quite yet, Mr Speaker\u2014maybe one day. The issue that I wanted to raise with you is where Ministers begin answers basically saying they do not have the information or they perhaps cannot give a full answer to the question, and then say \u201CBut what I can say is\u201D\u2014or words to that effect\u2014and go on to address a whole lot of other issues, or pick off a relevant topic but not one that actually addresses the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222554d82fc86a436580f0639c7548d189\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b60ed62c93ca49db9c735518eaed1434\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: And so therefore the point of order is, consistent with your earlier ruling today, that I am sure you would rule those to be out of order in the way that you have been much stricter on questions, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e94d07715b48019bd0c3f1b4544bf3\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228049b977d2c941b09e44f97ad0b3fe1b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not need any assistance on this one. If the member had listened, or goes back and reviews Hansard, as I would suggest, the question was: will the South Island enter a recession? It was interrupted by the questioner himself, but if the member would go back and listen, particularly to the latter part of the answer, the Minister said he did not think the South Island would enter a recession. He cannot be more direct than that in answering a question. I think the member should be actually congratulating the Minister on this occasion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254878703e4cf4d0ba468564013cfeca6\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that there has been a 22 percent increase in South Island unemployment in the past year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210946d8afa3246cdb2ed2d3c1dcf820c\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have the member\u2019s numbers to hand, but I can tell him that as at the end of June this year unemployment in the South Island was 3.9 percent, which is low unemployment by anybody\u2019s reckoning right across the OECD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a3f9408c6034d74bd6744b723aa0ca7\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that employment in Canterbury fell by 5,000 people in the last quarter alone?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d70426c19f845d8a6d6ae8718b66fe1\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I do not have that figure to hand but I can tell the member that Canterbury unemployment is the lowest in the country, at 3.3 percent in June of this year. If the member is looking for a challenge I suggest he look somewhere else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf41d1fa5da34e46bc6a13179ff677d0\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Apart from being a family member of a senior Earthquake Commission executive, how are young people in the South Island meant to find jobs when unemployment is rising and the economy is slipping into recession?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0ed1aaab0ee439f920003a8cea4406e\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Ignoring the first part of the question, unemployment in the South Island is 3.9 percent. In Canterbury it is 3.3 percent. Those are some of the lowest numbers on record. The member may try to seek a crisis out of those numbers but, actually, he truly needs to go away and think up a new target. Mind you, if he wants to declare a crisis, I am sure the economy will roar away\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c68b83bf85c34f1aa4507e04bcddab0f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have heard enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222dd9edc793804e30a63a9fa584e953a1\u0022\u003EBeneficiaries\u2014Support for Higher Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022679d0aef7bcb46fc8774e4413ef41dfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022679d0aef7bcb46fc8774e4413ef41dfe\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: What is the Government doing to support sole parents off benefits and into study?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdfa272d3e2943608aafbc619ae7f323\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdfa272d3e2943608aafbc619ae7f323\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E In July we aligned the accommodation supplement and the accommodation benefit. This means that sole parents who take up full-time study are now eligible to receive the same rate of accommodation support that they would on a main benefit. I am pleased to report that 598 applications have been approved in just the first 2 months and the majority of these students are now receiving between $60 and $225 per week, depending on their circumstances. Previously the maximum they could receive under the student support system was $60 a week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022861ea04d9ff146aea8aa5c01603dbcbb\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What are the benefits of tertiary education for people on benefits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022253ce5583cb64e6eb595cd2be7511cb3\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Each year we see approximately 20,000 clients exit a benefit to take up full-time study. Research shows that those completing level 4 qualifications or above were between 9 and 19 percent more likely to get work within 5 years of starting their study. Beneficiaries who completed levels 1 to 3 qualifications were 5 percent more likely to be employed within that same period. We also know that, on average, beneficiaries with a tertiary qualification spend 6\u00BD years fewer on a benefit. This Government is focused on providing a range of options to improve the employment prospects of young people in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223aaf19393d604918b95348ac97e56fdd\u0022\u003EMt Eden Corrections Facility\u2014Serco\u2019s Performance and Financial Penalties\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3bda4881011468f897712366a7edf07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3bda4881011468f897712366a7edf07\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: How many Specific Deductions were issued to SERCO, and then withdrawn, since SERCO took over management of Mt Eden Corrections Facility; and what is the amount of each of those withdrawals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022102f8a9508f942538631993d8c0306fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022102f8a9508f942538631993d8c0306fc\u0022\u003EHon Peseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Since Serco took over the management of Mt Eden Corrections Facility in 2011, I am advised that Corrections has issued a total of 55 performance notices to Serco. Seven have been withdrawn, and the total amount of the withdrawals is $275,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287e6fbcb6aaf4899b40aff9e699f6163\u0022\u003EDavid Clendon\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister approve of Corrections\u2019 decision to excuse the $100,000 fine that was imposed when Serco failed to take back razors that had been issued to inmates; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221679b35c47c4498aa9fe2f9a60e46971\u0022\u003EHon Peseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: That is not part of the fines that were actually withdrawn as part of the seven that I referred to in the primary answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e1acf4ee0f436bbc673bb4e3c9f1bd\u0022\u003EDavid Clendon\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a reply to an Official Information Act request from Corrections, which shows a specific deduction to the tune of $100,000, withdrawn in the 2014-15 year around the issue of safety razors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e97ff29900d64e4e90a82b751e3771f9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that particular Official Information Act reply. Is there any objection? There is none. It can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ffaa4b8b6a14ae09f35471f0bdc04d4\u0022\u003EDavid Clendon\u003C/span\u003E: Given that at least 14 performance notices were issued in the 2014-15 year alone, why have none of these doubled as a final notice so that the contract with Serco can be terminated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720fcb0fdc65496ba0745bcad269f2d3\u0022\u003EHon Peseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: Those notices that have been issued are still subject to a reply. It would be imprudent at this point to issue any of those types of final notices while there is due process required in those circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238b057030fb145398e97c2a56807a16b\u0022\u003EDavid Clendon\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister still have confidence in Serco?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293930d2407ea4388ae7009a508b4030c\u0022\u003EHon Peseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: My confidence in Serco, as I have already said in this House, is dependent on the review that is currently taking place by the chief inspectorate into the incidents at Mt Eden prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bfdd13178395492aae37a1553471f44b\u0022\u003EEarthquake Commission\u2014Foundation Repairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f779cc08cf3242bca2b058bbb85708d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f779cc08cf3242bca2b058bbb85708d8\u0022\u003EDr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for the Earthquake Commission: Can he confirm that, based on the MBIE survey findings, EQC expects to remediate one-third of homes with \u201Cjack and pack\u201D repairs in Canterbury; if so, what will the costs to EQC be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022843e8bdf710a4cb79e6d69b64fcdd489\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022843e8bdf710a4cb79e6d69b64fcdd489\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister responsible for the Earthquake Commission):\u003C/span\u003E No. Of the 69,000 homes in the repair programme, 3,600 had repairs completed that required specialist technical input, and 2,100 of these have now been identified as having the \u201Cjack and pack\u201D repair method applied to them. Clearly, not all of these will be problematic, but all of them are being checked. Until these checks are made, a definitive number cannot be known, although the Earthquake Commission in some communications has taken, or made, a generous estimate. These repairs fall under Schedule 1 of the Building Act and do not require consents. The cost of further remediation is estimated at between $500 and $1,000 per property, but this will not, in most cases, come at a cost to the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a34b078c4b50484894f1c57532b45176\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Has he met with representatives from the building industry to discuss potential liability issues for those repairs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7872ee365364e89a898690afbfd8acc\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The liability for those repairs, as has been stated by the managing director of Fletcher Residential will fall, in the first instance, on the contractors who failed to do those repairs properly. So the $500 it might cost them to fix it or the up to $1,000 it may cost them to do the work properly, as they have already been paid for it, will be on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfca38570cfb428c8b8ba3267cf6e05e\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was has the Minister met\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e461770ea8946a7bda8a058838d0c5d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to invite the member to ask the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022459f6ce36fe5443ebb6fc57c2873355b\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Has he met with representatives from the building industry to discuss potential liability issues for those repairs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022606592288d074dcebdfb270eebfd452b\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I have most certainly met with Fletchers, which runs the programme. That is the appropriate level of engagement. What I have been assured of by both Fletchers and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment is that these are at the lesser concerning end of any scale, and that where there is a failure of some kind it is expected that the repair would be somewhere between $500 and $1,000, and that will fall on the contractor who has failed to meet the standard in the first instance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf726d4a72034cb5899cfa0747d973ff\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: What deadline, if any, has he set for the completion of the reassessment and repair of those homes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9e1ee02bec64c2d8444c5b28e6b9619\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The process\u2014I think it is worth knowing\u2014for the assessment of those 2,100 properties is that they will have some form of below-floor inspection and then a programme will be put together for the individual repair of those houses. I do not think it particularly useful to put an artificial date out there for when they could be completed. Deadlines, I have found in most things relating to the Canterbury earthquake recovery, have not worked well for the people who do want to ensure that they get a good job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d22df006c4b9428ea80e48cfeaba6bea\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: In light of foundation specialist Bevan Craig\u2019s statement that this is the very diluted tip of a very big iceberg, is he concerned that a thousand more homeowners may be living in homes with other shoddy repair work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0c39e4d69304b56b333fafb4c370a7e\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I think it would be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a730dffdc27a4bf7a21d064858261969\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f010dec8cd84fc3a991cfc61338514f\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I think it would be\u2014well, some people live in two homes, of course, even though they are attached. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022947e3c25f885426a8884c12a757afe64\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Wind it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285993d8a4d964f4c99109606837f0bcc\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you should not judge a house by its mailboxes\u2014that is the thing. No, and I think it is inappropriate for the member to conflate two different types of damage that might have occurred to the house. So the issue that we are talking about, and I think she is talking about, is subfloor \u201Cjack and pack\u201D as a method. I do not believe that the concerns that some are expressing are around foundation repairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c17e7e8d1cd4f7fab6bb5e3c68d38ff\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: When 30 percent of repairs are defective in one review, Cantabrians are increasingly expressing concern about the wider Earthquake Commission repair programme, and the allegations of nepotism at the Earthquake Commission are rife, what will it take for him to start taking this seriously and launch an independent inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5539bf2e9d8407794cb1761ac128de5\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I have taken the issue of repairing houses in Canterbury seriously since 7 September, when we had the first meeting about those issues. There have been a large number of houses that are damaged. Many of them are over-cap, but 69,000 fall under the $100,000 repair cap set by the Earthquake Commission. I do not believe that the excitement that some want to generate about a small amount of failure to meet a compliance that might cost between $500 and $1,000 to fix if found to be defective is a reason for an inquiry of the nature that the member seeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220675c29a6d324959a3607fdd30a3a540\u0022\u003EElectricity Market\u2014Smart Grid Forum\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00225c6e63a93062432cb064d7acb2c9ba9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c6e63a93062432cb064d7acb2c9ba9c\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: What recent reports has he received on smart electricity grid development in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8469dcbf1a54db1a0c56d4d930edc70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8469dcbf1a54db1a0c56d4d930edc70\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I recently received the first year-end report from the Smart Grid Forum, which was established last year by the Government to help to understand and advance smart meter electricity development in New Zealand. It is a forum that brings together academics, industry, consumers, and officials. It found that the Government\u2019s market-led approach relying on consumers and customers within a competitive market provides the necessary focus as well as the agility to help exploit smart grid technologies. The forum did recommend measures to help consumers understand and compare new technologies, and also a way to monitor and report on the risks of transitioning to a smarter grid. I will be looking at ways to implement those recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022519dd3dc3c634be1be1b156b9c5424d9\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: What will be the focus of the Smart Grid Forum\u2019s future work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de46db13067941c9bda4206f00be24c3\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I have asked the forum to continue its work, and I have sought its views on two issues in particular: first, how New Zealand is progressing relative to other countries, and what might be done to accelerate developments, and, second, how smart grid developments might help to meet our emissions reduction targets. I want to thank the forum for its work to date, and I look forward to continuing working with it. There is no doubt that in the future our electricity system will look very different from how it looks today. New technologies are already giving consumers greater choice. We need to ensure that we capture the benefits of technological advantages in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227cd86c626f8040818d332351ca47bb16\u0022\u003EInternational Finance Agreements Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002236183c072b684c38b98c33e44ff3c780\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6d5ba9b56a64907a514f5def4f404ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6d5ba9b56a64907a514f5def4f404ce\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the International Finance Agreements Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 22 October 2015 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday during a week when there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 191 and 194(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis is the piece of legislation that enables the Government of New Zealand to become a member of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank and to implement our obligations under the articles of the agreement of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. Just as a little bit of history to this legislation, last year the Chinese Government floated the idea of an Asian infrastructure bank. At the time, there was, I have to say, some scepticism about whether there was the room for such a bank, the need for it, and whether it would be structured in a way that meant that there could be multilateral participation in that bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Government already has shareholdings in the World Bank and its various manifestations, and the Asian Development Bank. New Zealand took something of a brave step early on, partly with the encouragement and assistance of Singapore, to be the first developed country that put up its hand to engage developing countries and that put up its hand to engage in discussion with the Chinese Government about the possibility of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank being a true multilateral institution because, like many others, we anticipated that it would be fairly similar to the other Chinese banking operations that are completely controlled by the Chinese Government. As it happened\u2014principally with New Zealand\u2019s effort, but also with that of others\u2014the discussions with the Chinese Government progressed very positively and much more rapidly than we might have anticipated. It turned out that this initiative, taken personally by President Xi Jinping\u2014it came to be seen that this initiative was intended by the Chinese Government to be a modern, multilateral institution. So that is how it has turned out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the role of the New Zealand officials, particularly the role of the former Secretary to the Treasury, John Whitehead, in negotiating an outcome\u2014unexpected, I think, by the broader community of developed countries and developing countries that took an interest in the structure of the bank. Since New Zealand put up its hand to engage in those discussions, many other developed countries have joined. A number of them commented to me at the signing ceremony in Beijing that the fact that New Zealand had participated early and was happy with the arrangements was a positive signal to them that it was the type of institution that they could support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Chinese Government, with its focus on getting things done, has set out a timetable, as have the negotiators of the articles of the bank, more correctly. This bill is part of meeting that timetable. Why have we been interested? Because our future lies in the Asian region. In the context of a lot of discussion about uncertainty over whether the Chinese economy continues to grow at the rates to which we are accustomed, it is important that we broaden our interests across South-east Asia\u2014as this Government has\u2014and build up our relationships and understandings in other well-populated markets where growth rates are significant: Indonesia, the Philippines, and Viet Nam. One has to visit those countries only briefly to see the demand and the need for very significant investment in infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis kind of multilateral institution allows a range of countries to participate, but I suspect it will also lead to the setting of both asset standards and financial standards that ensure quality infrastructure investment in those economies. Every bit of that infrastructure will be of benefit, in the long run, to the New Zealand economy. A well-functioning Indonesian economy will, in 10 or 20 years, be a powerhouse of growth. There is no doubt about that. It is the same for the Philippines, the same for Viet Nam, and the same for other countries such as Thailand, Malaysia, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThose kinds of considerations were reflected in the international treaty examination of both the bank and its articles of agreement, which was handled by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. I want to thank that committee and the officials, but particularly the committee, for taking quite seriously their opportunity to scrutinise this. There was an opinion that I was looking forward to seeing, and it was a constructive, forward-looking opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe purposes of the bill are to amend the International Finance Agreements Act to enable us to participate. Through our involvement in the negotiations we have seen the founding documents of the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank that promote and uphold the principles of broad and open membership, strong and efficient governance mechanisms, and a firm commitment to sustainability, to environmental and social safeguards, and to transparency and openness. I am pleased to say that these are the kinds of standards that we take for granted somewhat in New Zealand, and it is important to see them embedded in this institution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe bill gives certain articles of the agreement the force of law in New Zealand. Clause 7 provides for various privileges and immunities, including from legal proceedings, for the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank, its assets and archives, and its officials. This is consistent with the immunity afforded to the staff of other international financial institutions, in accordance with the International Finance Agreements Act. Founding members of the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank have been requested, if possible, to complete ratification by the end of the year. This will allow entry into force of the articles and the start of the bank\u2019s operations by that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThat is another reason why I think we have got broad agreement to expedite this piece of legislation. Multilateral institutions are often known for the slowness with which they move. We have issues with the Asian Development Bank, whose procurement processes mean that our aid projects across the Pacific are held up because they apply the same standards to small Pacific aid projects as they would apply to a multibillion-dollar investment in a large South-east Asian economy. This particular multilateral institution has been formed quickly. It is moving from concept to operation remarkably quickly, by any international standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIf this is the way that we can do business with other countries, not just China but the other 49 or 50 members, then it is a great example of not only how we can contribute, but a great example of a higher degree of global cooperation on some of these issues than I have seen in other examples of multilateral institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIt is intended that the bill be brought into force when New Zealand becomes a member of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. Two things must happen before that. First, New Zealand must have ratified the Articles of Agreement of the Infrastructure Bank. Second, they must have been entered into force\u2014that is, approved by at least 10 signatories whose initial capital subscriptions comprise no less than 50 percent. We will be a very small proportion of that 50 percent capital, but we can contribute by getting the job done. Again, I want to thank the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee and the officials for their work, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e959788371f149a699a3ae6864e699f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e959788371f149a699a3ae6864e699f5\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the Labour Party to indicate our support for the first reading of this bill. When announcements were made earlier in the year that the Government was, firstly, signing up as a foundation member and then, secondly, to contribute money, we supported that on the grounds that, essentially, this bank is going to happen, it is going to be established, it is going to become a very important player in our region, and it is something that, as New Zealand looks to expand opportunities for our involvement and our development with the wider Asian region, we should be a part of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt was quite clear in the Minister of Finance\u2019s speech that he has just given that he expressed some of the surprise that others did at the pace at which developments have occurred with the establishment of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. I want to say that that is the small note of caution that I would like to sound. I think when the select committee has some time to go through the bill, one of the things we would want it to do is to look closely at those governance arrangements and the way in which safeguards have been included within the establishment of the bank because of that particular reason\u2014the pace\u2014but also because this is unchartered territory for an initiative led by the Chinese Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Minister himself used the language very early on, when this was being debated, that some commentators had seen this as some kind of expanded Chinese State-owned enterprise. He was reflecting the concerns of countries that that is what we were facing up to. It is quite clear in the development since that time that that concern has significantly reduced, but it is vitally important that the governance arrangements that are built around this bank have the level of transparency and the level of accountability that we would expect from a multilateral institution like this. I have got confidence in the likes of John Whitehead and others to have involved us in an agreement only if they felt that that was possible. But that is the job of the select committee\u2014to ensure that we have those safeguards in place and that we are confident about the governance issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat I can say, in terms of what this will mean for the coherence of infrastructure development across the Asia region, is that this can only be positive. I think anyone who has spent time in the Asia-Pacific region and who has seen the more ad hoc style of infrastructure development that can take place can see how that can cause some problems if a large country\u2014and it often is China, but it can be other countries\u2014finds its way into the Asia-Pacific region and supports a particular one-off project. That is not always the most effective or efficient way of ensuring that that infrastructure dollar is well spent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen we look at what lies behind the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, we can see that it is indeed an attempt to create a very coherent form of infrastructure development right through those Asian nations that the Minister mentioned in his speech. So I think that will be an extremely positive development out of the establishment of the bank, if we can get that kind of coherence into what is, clearly, a rapidly growing region, but one where there are significant infrastructure gaps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe World Bank and the Asian Development Bank have, certainly in the initial stages of this idea being floated, been very critical of the idea that a separate mechanism was required. Anyone who has spent any time in the Asia region will hear from Governments there their criticisms of the World Bank and the IMF and that they do not believe that they are sufficiently focused or have sufficient knowledge of the Asian region to be able to give the leadership in infrastructure development that a bank focused on and based inside the Asian region would be able to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe World Bank has said that a further trillion dollars annually is needed to support economic growth in the region. That is a massive sum of money to be able to find. So the arrival of a domestically or a regionally located bank like this will, clearly, be an important element in getting towards reaching some of those growth goals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENew Zealand already benefits from expanding growth across the Asian region; it is vital to our future success, and the development of infrastructure is equally vital in that context as well. We believe New Zealand does need a seat at the table when these kinds of initiatives begin, and we do believe that the bank is likely to become a very influential institution across the Asian continent. By being there now, we are best placed to exert some influence over the direction, work, and governance of the bank. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is important to note that New Zealand\u2019s contribution over the next 5 years will be a fairly modest $126 million, with a possible further commitment of $504 million of callable capital. This is a large investment in terms of just raw dollar figures, but across the many billions of dollars required in the region it is quite small. We do think that there are significant benefits in terms of increased economic development in the Asian region, in supporting that economic integration, as I mentioned before, and in augmenting New Zealand\u2019s other relationships that it has in the Asian region. We are not as represented as we could be in some of the places where the bank will be doing its work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis offers a way in for New Zealand being a part of the development of those countries. Particularly, we think it will, if done well, improve the operational standards and the safeguards around infrastructure development by having a more coherent process. Clearly, it builds on our very good and strong relationship with China. Some commentators have likened this to being the fifth first, with New Zealand there. Anyone who has been to China will have been part of a speech talking about the four firsts\u2014Mr Goff has certainly given plenty of those. He was there for most of them. But New Zealand has always been at the forefront of recognising China as a market economy, of supporting its involvement in multilateral institutions like the World Trade Organization, beginning negotiations for a free-trade agreement, and then, eventually, being the first country to settle a free-trade agreement with China. They were the four firsts. Some people see New Zealand\u2019s early involvement with the bank as a fifth first. That can only be positive for developing our relationships in China.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe do support this legislation, but I do want to note the very odd way in which the Government has chosen to finance its contribution into the fund. It has done that through the Future Investment Fund. The Future Investment Fund is a well-used mechanism by the Government when it wants to find some money. It was, as people will recall, the fund that was to be created by the sale of State assets. Around $4 billion ended up in it. I will not go into how the fund did not end up being what it was going to be, but $4 billion ended up in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe have sat in this House year after year and seen Government Ministers stand up and tell us that things will be funded out of the Future Investment Fund. It was not surprising, when we came to the Budget this year, to discover that the Future Investment Fund is now oversubscribed. So with all the commitments that the Government has made for the things that it originally said the Future Investment Fund would be used for\u2014education and health specifically, and building that infrastructure here in New Zealand\u2014there is still outstanding hundreds of millions of dollars that have not yet been spent. Yet the Government seems to be able to find the room, in this case, to find $125 million to go and spend on the bank. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBy all means be part of this, but that is not what the Future Investment Fund was meant to be for. The Future Investment Fund was quite clearly designed to be spent on things like education, building schools, and building hospitals here in New Zealand. It was always an illusion. It was an accounting trick by the Government, and it has the gall to come to this House and say: \u201CHere we are; we\u2019re going to fund New Zealand\u2019s contribution to this very worthy initiative by raiding the Future Investment Fund, which we\u2019ve already overspent.\u201D It is not without irony for people who are sitting in the regions of New Zealand and wanting an infrastructure boost, and wanting to see some roads developed, perhaps for the forestry sector on the East Coast, or maybe for the \u014Cp\u014Dtiki wharf. They are saying: \u201CWouldn\u2019t it be good to get some of the Future Investment Fund into our infrastructure.\u201D We can understand that people would see it as somewhat ironic to be using that fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is a track record that the Government should not be proud of. It managed to spend $6 million fixing the roof of the Beehive. That was, apparently, worthy of the Future Investment Fund. It spent $8 million on the census. That also came from the Future Investment Fund. This is not the health and education infrastructure that New Zealanders were promised would come out of the Future Investment Fund. So I think it is pretty disingenuous of the Government to claim that it can keep on raiding that fund, which is already overcommitted, when it has not been able to follow through on the education and health funding that was meant to occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo we now see the Government being about $364 million short of the spending on schools it promised under the Future Investment Fund, and about $316 million short on health funding. The Government has failed to find the funding that was needed for that, yet it still tries to pretend that this is where the funding will come from for this particular initiative. So we would be interested in looking into that as we go through this in the select committee process, just to see exactly where this funding is coming from, because, quite frankly, I do not believe it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMr Deputy Speaker, I just want to finish\u2014because I know you will sit me down in a moment\u2014on the slightly odd motion that the Minister moved, at the start of his speech, on having a truncated select committee process. I certainly appreciate the need to get this done by the end of the year, but we would be asking why the Government is so disorganised that it has to keep coming to the House with such motions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00220868c4e3812f4b94926c51d17e1c0c54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220868c4e3812f4b94926c51d17e1c0c54\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and speak to the International Finance Agreements Amendment Bill, which in itself speaks to the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. The purpose of this bank is to address the gap in infrastructure investment in the Asian region and to promote regional collaborations and partnerships. I would note that the Minister of Foreign Affairs has described Asia as important to New Zealand\u2019s future and that Asia is driving global growth. Indeed, if we look at a 2009 report from the Asian Development Bank, it has estimated that infrastructure financing in Asia may be as much as $8 trillion dollars during the decade 2010 to 2020. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI think it is useful just to talk briefly to the definition of Asia as it is described in this agreement. That definition is the United Nations classification of Asia and Oceania, which in itself encompasses North Asia, South-east Asia, South Asia, Central Asia, parts of the Middle East, Australasia, and the Pacific, and I think it is useful to bear that breadth in mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe committee officials noted three particular benefits to New Zealand\u2019s involvement in this bank. The first reason is economic, obviously noting that Asia\u2019s growth is limited by its infrastructure, and if it benefits, then indirectly we benefit. Of course, New Zealand firms may directly compete for proposed infrastructure projects that may well be of direct benefit also. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe second point noted by officials was strategic connectivity, and it was noted that our international relationships benefit from this agreement as well, as it supports Asian networks. It has already been noted that China particularly has appreciated our early relationship with the bank. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe third comment was about our ability to influence and shape as a founder member. We were the 24th country to join negotiators, and, as has been commented on, the first Western developed country. We can look and see what New Zealand\u2019s influence has been, as one of these founding members, across a range of domains. If we look at governance, New Zealand has supported a non-resident board of directors and adopted many of the frameworks and models from the World Bank. Our negotiators supported open, transparent, merit-based appointments. That is a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EFurther, we looked at safeguards. We were looking to ensure social and environmental safeguards, and I note that New Zealand had \u201Csustainable\u201D added before the \u201Ceconomic development\u201D phrase in the purpose section, therefore reading, in continuity, \u201Csustainable economic development\u201D. Of course, as part of best practice and other safeguards, it is noted that proposed investments and proposed projects will also be open procurement and best value for money. The fourth influence from New Zealand is in the collaboration of global and regional institutions and promoting best practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe have some obligations under this agreement. Our obligations are to provide the agreed paid-in capital and callable capital and accept voting decisions\u2014and voting decisions where membership may be suspended if we do not fulfil our obligations. We are to impose no capital constraints, nominate the Reserve Bank as a depository, and our liability is limited to the shareholding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI would like to just briefly talk about our equity contribution, which is $125 million paid-up and $500 million on-call capital. We asked about the security of that equity. What we were told was that we have already received a disproportionate benefit for what is effectively a 0.6 percent shareholding. We were also told there is a very small probability of the on-call funds actually being called up. We asked about the security of the $125 million that we have paid, and we were told this was very secure\u2014secure on the basis of preferred creditor status, a favourable risk rating, and the fact that there is a high proportion of paid-up capital to callable capital in this particular arrangement, which at 20 percent actually exceeds the World Bank. The logistics of entry into force\u201410 States comprising 50 percent of the bought-up capital\u2014have already been commented on as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI note that one of our partners alluded to the progress of this agreement and the fact that China is a dominant shareholder. I would note that it is not unusual to have a significant anchor shareholder. The World Bank, the Asian Development Bank, and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development also have this. I would like to acknowledge the committee members and officials for this fine piece of work. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00221f5fcf55fa19476dab01e9239032255a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f5fcf55fa19476dab01e9239032255a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call in respect of the legislation to give effect to New Zealand\u2019s participation in the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, which it does by way of amending the International Finance Agreements Act to make provision for this new international development bank to sit alongside some of the other banks that New Zealand participates in, including the likes of the IMF and the World Bank. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI begin by thanking the Chinese Government and the people of China whose resources lie behind this bank. Without their contribution this would not be happening. I know that there was some initial opposition to the formation of this bank from the United States, and from some other countries that perhaps were a little threatened by the rise of China and did not want to see it being given recognition by the creation of this Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, which is so clearly tied to its fortunes and to its rise in the world. I thank the National Government for its steps to bring this to fruition, because I think that it has made the right call, that we should be involved, and we should be celebrating this as a good thing in the world rather than seeing it as a bad thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI think that in addition to the trade benefits, which have been emphasised by other members, I would emphasise some of the non-economic or indirect economic benefits that will flow from this. I want people to be lifted out of poverty. I think that we are a better world if people can have decent standards of living in their own countries and the secure civil settings that that brings about. If we are going to avoid conflagrations where we have civil wars and the movement of millions of people\u2014refugees\u2014caused by war and lack of economic prospect in their home country, then we actually need to lift the people in poorer countries so that their circumstance at home is better. That is a good thing to do for them, and it is actually a good thing for us to do, not just economically. I do not want to emphasise so much the economic benefits for us; I want us to do this because it is the right thing to do for the world, and I think it is. I think of the history of the World Bank and the IMF, both of which have made mistakes over time\u2014but overall these have been institutions that have made the world a better place than it would otherwise be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI agree with the previous speaker, Dr Reti, that it is good that New Zealand has been influential in this from the start, and that we have tried to imbue some of our standards as to what we think will make the world a better place by, as Dr Reti has said, trying to get environmental impacts of new infrastructure developments to be taken into account. There was a period, I think, when international organisations funded infrastructure improvements without much regard to the environmental consequence\u2014when taking those environmental consequences into account has a better long-term outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to talk about is that I think it is very important that this Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank stands against corruption from the start. I have some hope in that regard from the fact that the Chinese Government itself is pushing against some of the corrupt practices that it has discovered in its own country and that it dislikes. I would hope that the systems that the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank implements from its first day push against corruption in these developing countries, against the private profiteering by politicians out of large infrastructure projects, against kickbacks, and against improper practice in its contracts. And if they do, then the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank will not just have the benefit in respect of the individual project; it will actually be lifting the standards of conduct in these developing countries, to their benefit and, again, to our wider benefit, because they will be better countries as a consequence and we will live in a better world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn terms of the small percentage that we make to the capital, the same thing has to be said here as was said in recent amendments, I think it was last year or the year before, to the IMF rules under the international finance agreements legislation that we have in New Zealand\u2014that is that New Zealand\u2019s contribution to these organisations keeps dropping as a percentage because we are not growing as fast as other parts of the world. That is due, in part, to developing countries catching up, but in part it is because our record of economic development and growth in this country is not as good as it should be. We are funding, through this new bank, infrastructure projects that will lift economic performance in other countries, and that is a good thing, but it has to be noted that in respect of New Zealand\u2019s economic performance our exports are dropping. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EPerhaps we should pay some more attention to the recommendations of other international bodies like the OECD and the IMF, which have given instruction to New Zealand as to how we could improve our economy and lift exports. Instead, exports are going backwards as a percentage of our economy. They have dropped from 30 percent to 28 percent of GDP in the last 7 years, and they are still dropping. The Government\u2019s ambition was to lift them from 30 percent to 40 percent of GDP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to turn to an issue that Grant Robertson raised, which was the funding of this out of the Future Investment Fund. Has not this fund turned into being the pot into which you dip in order to fund everything? We had the list that Grant Robertson started\u2014listing the census and the Beehive roof. I went back and looked at some of the other things that they said they are going to do. Bill English initially said that they were going to pay down debt from the fund. Well, how did that go? Well, actually, debt under this Government has gone up by $60 billion, despite having inherited zero net debt from the outgoing Labour Government, which had also reduced gross debt from 40 percent to 18 percent of GDP. This Government has increased both measures by about $60 billion. It was going to fund schools and hospitals\u2014that was what John Key said. That was going to be the main reason for this fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWell, what has it done since? Nathan Guy said it was going to fund irrigation projects out of it\u2014a terrible thing to do anyway because it is effectively a transfer of wealth from taxpayers to landowners. But, putting that aside, it was going to do it out of the Future Investment Fund. Gerry Brownlee said it was going to rebuild Christchurch. Gerry Brownlee also said it was going to fund Auckland transport projects out of it. Then Mr Joyce wanted to get in the news and so he said they would fund some of the recapitalisation of KiwiRail out of it. Then Bill English wanted to recapitalise Kiwibank. Guess where that came from? The same Future Investment Fund. Then Chris Finlayson wanted to be involved in the Wellington war memorial\u2014that was the part that he propped up. Then Tony Ryall, as the then Minister for State Owned Enterprises, shot some money into Solid Energy, or said he was going to, from that fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis really has been a grab bag of things, and the Future Investment Fund has not been used to add to the productivity of New Zealand. As a consequence, of course, of the sell down of those State-owned enterprises, taxpayers have lost control of what, I think, are pretty important assets over time. They have also forgone the dividends and the future profits from those companies in a way that is always going to be to the long-term cost to taxpayers because, of course, the return on those sorts of investments always exceeds the Crown cost of capital and, therefore, it would never have made sense from a point of view of the deficit, and it was not necessary in terms of the Government\u2019s balance sheet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EReturning to the objectives of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, can I thank the Finance and Expenditure Committee for its report on the treaty, which has led to this legislation. Lastly, in terms of process, if there is to be a motion to put this to the Finance and Expenditure Committee for a truncated process, I do not understand why. Just let the committee do it as quickly as it can and report it back, and trust the committee to do its business wisely and quickly. Do not create an artificially short process that will require us to vote against that part of the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c36c4264237f40c8bb27c34d387666db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c36c4264237f40c8bb27c34d387666db\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E When it comes to the International Finance Agreements Amendment Bill I just want to take a short call. This bill is in regard to the establishment of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, which is basically an equivalent of the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank. It is led predominantly from the Chinese economy rather than through the Asian Development Bank, which is led by the Japanese economy, and the World Bank, led by the US. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWhen we look at this proposal, members have spoken about the hard work that officials undertook in negotiating it. I would like to congratulate those officials as well. I know that earlier in the year at a conference they were especially well-thought-of as being leaders in the negotiation with the Chinese and the Singaporeans to deliver the structure of this bank that has enabled many other countries in North America, Europe, and through Asia to feel comfortable to be involved in it, and I think those officials need to be well thanked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIt is good to see the Labour Party will be supporting this bill as well, so that is good to hear. We know that the New Zealand First Party will not be supporting it. If it is consistent in its arguments, then it should stand up in this House today and withdraw funding from the World Bank and withdraw funding from the Asian Development Bank, which are both banks that essentially do the same thing. In fact, this bank will actually be delivering finance to our region and to the South Pacific, which is actually more important than probably the World Bank for us, and the Asian Development Bank has had issues in doing that. So I would like to see consistency from the New Zealand First Party rather than bigotry against certain countries because of race. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill and is something that is needed. [Interruption] Do we hear there is something against that from the other side? Well I would like to hear your reason why you will not withdraw from the other ones. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca81e2f5ac98492cadcfb7a6d0b10952\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca81e2f5ac98492cadcfb7a6d0b10952\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I took offence. He called New Zealand First\u2014he implied\u2014I do not want to say the word again, it was so offensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7b74487d33745a7b1c9bfcbf2e8984a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7b74487d33745a7b1c9bfcbf2e8984a\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I take the member\u2019s point of order. The member who has just resumed his seat should be a little bit more discreet in respect of that, but making a comment about a party is different from making a comment about a particular person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00220be7aae10bb24ef9849d09047f2f2aef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220be7aae10bb24ef9849d09047f2f2aef\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting this bill at its first reading. The bill, of course, puts into effect the Government\u2019s commitment to make a contribution to the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, which is an initiative of China, in particular, but it has 57 countries signed up to it to be a multilateral investment vehicle that will enable investment in core infrastructure and also in areas of potentially productive industries across Asia and the Pacific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere is no question that investment in infrastructure across the world will be necessary to respond to both of the big global challenges that we are facing: that is, climate change and inequality. When it comes to climate change there is the potential for infrastructure to reduce pollution and also to help us to adapt to the climate change that is already locked in, like sea-level rise and increased frequency and severity of storms. It is really critical that we are investing in the right type of infrastructure to address these problems. It remains to be seen whether or not the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank will be leading on that type of investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Global Commission on the Economy and Climate put out a report earlier this year called The New Climate Economy. It had a specific focus on infrastructure. What the report says is: \u201C2015 is a year of unprecedented opportunity. A goal once seen as distant\u2014to end extreme poverty, achieve broad-based prosperity and secure a safe climate, all together\u2014is increasingly within reach.\u201D And that is exactly what the Green Party is interested in. We must respond to climate change. We must reduce greenhouse pollution\u2014there is no debate about that. To that end, every piece of infrastructure that we are investing in needs to bring us closer to that goal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhat is increasingly being said by economists across the world is that there is no trade-off between reducing our greenhouse pollution and having an economy that works for people. There is not a big financial cost to reducing our emissions\u2014in fact, there will be an enormous financial cost and consequences to not reducing greenhouse pollution\u2014so that is why climate change in particular is a major priority for the Green Party. We have high hopes that the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank will be investing in infrastructure that not only enables reliable access to electricity, clean water, sanitation facilities, transport, and urban development, but does all of this with an eye to reducing greenhouse pollution and achieving greater equality across the world, because ultimately that is going to be better for the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere is a slight risk, right? This is because investment in all of these areas of infrastructure, whether it is electricity generation, transport, water, sanitation\u2014all of that has the potential to reduce pollution and respond to climate change and reduce inequality, or it has the potential to make it worse. This is one of the points that was made by the Global Commission on the Economy and Climate. It said that \u201Ccrucial investments will be made over the next 15 years in \u2026 land use and energy systems [and transport]. They have the potential to generate multiple benefits for economic growth, human development and the environment; or they could lock countries into high-carbon pathways \u2026\u201D. So it is really critical that this is a major priority for how we prioritise infrastructure investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, here in New Zealand the National Government is not using that as a lens for how we prioritise investment. In fact, it is prioritising a lot of investment in transport infrastructure, in particular, that is not only going to do nothing to reduce the cost of moving people and goods around New Zealand, it is actually going to make our greenhouse gas emissions from transport increase, rather than decrease. So that is a real lost opportunity here in New Zealand, but we hope that the development bank\u2014because it will be independent and not constrained by the narrow political ideology of the National Party here in New Zealand\u2014will be looking to seize the global opportunity to actually respond to climate change, reduce inequality, and have an economy that is going to serve people and the environment better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere is some concern because, of course, there has been criticism of some of the policies of the World Bank and the IMF in the past. I think the basis of the criticism is that if the decisions are being made primarily by people with linkages to financial industries\u2014like finance Ministers and central bank governors; if they are the only ones at the table\u2014they end up pushing certain policies that do not represent the interests of everybody in the economy, especially workers. So that is the basis on which Joseph Stiglitz, for example, has criticised some of the policies of the World Bank, and has said that we need agencies that are dedicated to development. It is possible for those agencies to be making decisions that benefit everyone in the economy, but if we have only a narrow group of people making the decisions, it is very easy for those decisions to not reflect the interests of everyone in the economy but, in fact, to reflect the interests of their connection to people they know who are involved in the financial industries. These interests are often at odds with the real economy, as we have seen over the past 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut I am relieved to say that if you look at the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, it states up front that its modus operandi will be to be lean, clean, and green: lean, as in having small, efficient management\u2014which could be good, but, again, we want to make sure that a broad group of people are involved in decision making; clean, as in having zero tolerance for corruption; and green, being an institution built on respect for the environment. So it is on that basis that the Green Party is very positive about this development and the possibilities for us to invest in infrastructure that is actually going to reduce pollution, make people\u2019s lives better, and start to chip away at the increasing inequality that exists not only in this country but around the globe. There is a real opportunity there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI note with interest\u2014and I have to agree with\u2014the comments from Grant Robertson and David Parker. We do have concerns about the speed with which the bank has been established\u2014it has been unprecedentedly quick\u2014and I think that is something that needs to be canvassed during the select committee process. Particularly, we have concerns about where the money that New Zealand is contributing is going to come from, because comments have been made that it is coming from the Future Investment Fund, which, of course, was the money set aside from the proceeds from the asset sales that National undertook last term. It is not clear that there actually is enough money in the Future Investment Fund to cover all the different promises that National has made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe in the Green Party certainly did not agree with the asset sales. We do not believe that that was an intelligent economic policy for New Zealand. We do not believe that it has done anything to reduce our debt, which was one of the bizarre claims made by the Government at the time\u2014that it was going to be reducing debt\u2014and, of course, the promise that was made was that the proceeds would be invested in productive infrastructure for New Zealand, like schools and hospitals and rail. Of course, putting the money in something like the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank is quite a different proposition from investing in infrastructure here in New Zealand. So it will be interesting to see where, in fact, the money is going to come from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EOne final point is that $125 million is going to be going towards this bank over 5 years to capitalise it. Before the last election the Green Party put forward a policy of having a green investment bank for New Zealand, and, in fact, it was a very similar amount of money. It was $120 million over 3 years that we thought was needed to capitalise a green investment bank here in New Zealand that could then be run on commercial grounds and specialise in investment in clean technology and other infrastructure that is going to help us respond to climate change. We think that is a great policy. It makes a lot of sense. It is the sort of thing that one would think National would support. Of course, it has not shown any support for it thus far, but it is interesting that it is a similar amount of money for a similar purpose, albeit this purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank obviously has wider implications for our relationships with other countries, but there is a case for having a green investment bank here in New Zealand to help prioritise the projects that are going to help us have an economy that is going to respond to climate change and allow future generations to prosper well into the future. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1bf50956a6d445c91199ed61996f9f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1bf50956a6d445c91199ed61996f9f6\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak against the International Finance Agreements Amendment Bill, as it gives rise to the implementation and our membership of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. I would just like to take the first part of my speech as an opportunity to reply to some statements from the Minister of Finance and Mr Bennett, in particular. They used the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank as examples of operations running well. Actually, what we are seeing here today and are debating today arises from the very fact that China has said for decades that the Asian Development Bank and the World Trade Organization do not operate well. They do not operate well, and, therefore, China has decided to not necessarily opt out but to create its own infrastructure bank, and the reasons for that are myriad and complicated. But it just goes to show that what is held up on that side of the House as examples of what is good, from the debate itself, from the issues arising from this very legislation, are actually bad examples. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EThe Minister spoke of how wonderful this will be and how it will encourage regional growth in our area. He specifically spoke of Indonesia, and then he listed off a few other countries in the region as being powerhouses of growth in about 20 to 25 years. I would put it to this House that that Minister, who is the Minister of Finance and who is in charge of this economy, should be speaking to this House about plans to make New Zealand the powerhouse of growth in the Asia-Pacific region. He should be talking about how the Government is developing plans to grow New Zealand, not relying on other countries, neighbours, reasonably close by. Instead, he goes on and talks about relying on others growing. Yes, Minister of Finance, your plan is working: sell off New Zealand, fund other countries\u2019 growth, and let New Zealanders pick up the crumbs! It just makes no sense, whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EIf New Zealanders were not already suffering, if our regions were not already missing out, if our exports were not actually declining, if real unemployment in New Zealand was not actually on the increase, and if money used to buy into this club was not, in fact, sourced from broken promises given by Prime Minister John Key, New Zealand First would actually welcome a discussion on China\u2019s initiative. For example, one of the questions New Zealand First would ask is, what kind of aid does a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e631b5c7ef2e4114b8fb3833900493fe\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: A brilliant speech!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ea2041df5a9498393dd9d16663e4e2e\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014developing Asia actually need\u2014Mr Ross? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EMembers of this House will know that developing countries with weak institutions and poor governance are often far bigger obstacles to growth than an actual lack of funds. New Zealand First would point out that a project will often look good on paper; practical implementation, on the other hand, is often a frustrating and sobering experience. Costs provided to investment bank projects historically far exceed initial estimates, and planners bidding for funds often woefully underestimate the skills and funds needed to ensure maintenance and repairs of these big infrastructure projects. But there was no discussion. Actually, instead, the details of the Government\u2019s participation in this investment fund came to the select committee after the fact. All decisions had been made in relation to our participation in the infrastructure bank itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First stands to oppose this legislation. There are two significant reasons for this. Firstly, and perhaps most important, is the fact\u2014as I mentioned very briefly\u2014that the Prime Minister promised in his 2011 election campaign that the money from State asset sales would be for New Zealand hospitals and schools. Money from the assets sales went into the Future Investment Fund launched in 2011, but the Government is now using it to pay a $140 million contribution to pay an infrastructure investment bank off of New Zealand shores. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222464ae7d40834d5c93c68cda40e000cb\u0022\u003EAlastair Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, \u201Coffshore\u201D. That\u2019s a scary word: \u201Coffshore\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212f149c68da842a09d4dbac8dfc1598e\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Key means to look New Zealanders in the eye\u2014along with some of those National backbenchers\u2014to look your constituents in the eye and talk to them about your broken promises and explain how he was unable to answer questions in the House, bizarrely insisting that this was an asset for New Zealand. This is so far from his election promise. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022736b2516dd814267ad7bd829a5be877a\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Take a breath.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee768cf67dca4b72bb2a0d93a9511ade\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU\u003C/span\u003E: This is so far from his promise. Many who were opposed to the sales, including New Zealand First, were told that this fund would be spent on hospitals, schools, and infrastructure. We were told it would be spent on paying off this Government\u2019s debt. We were told it would be spent on investing in Christchurch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EThere will be hospitals, schools, and roads built, but not in New Zealand, and that is the reality of this investment. This Government has agreed to put $140 million up front into the investment bank. It has agreed to more than half a billion dollars being set aside to be on call. And, actually, as the New Zealand dollar devalues and because these discussions were had in United States dollars, our commitment actually grows and grows day by day. So we are talking perhaps around a $145 million commitment today, and perhaps the $561 million on call is over and beyond $600 million now. This is a vast sum of money that could be used to invest in New Zealand infrastructure\u2014into cell towers, roads, schools, hospitals, or rail. We could set up provincial New Zealand for growth when the recovery kicks in. New Zealand First insists that infrastructure development, just like charity, actually should begin at home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First stands to oppose, as I said, on two main grounds. The second reason for this opposition arises from the actual history of infrastructure banks, as spoken to by both sides of the House. Infrastructure and development banks, as I mentioned to Mr English\u2014for example, the Asian Development Bank and the World Trade Organization\u2014are actual examples of China\u2019s ongoing discontent with those banks. Here we are today\u2014I say it again\u2014debating this legislation because those infrastructure banks do not work for all of their members. I put it to this House that although New Zealand has been quick on the uptake and part of developing the rules and obligations of this bank, which I commend, the reality is that we are a small member with very few shares. Our commitment, although I contend it is huge as far as the New Zealand economy is concerned, is tiny in comparison with other countries\u2019 contributions. So although we are acknowledged as an early starter and an early player in this, the reality is that we will not have the say that the members on the other side of the House have spoken to. We will be just as frustrated as China was in its own relationship with previous development banks as the future unfolds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EThere are actually several issues with the legislation itself, but it looks like discussions around the House will have it that this will come to select committee despite New Zealand First\u2019s opposition to this bill, and I will take the opportunity to raise opposition to particular parts\u2014for example, article 56 of schedule 8\u2014in those conversations. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f09c2d72dcd745a2bb87885b315336ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f09c2d72dcd745a2bb87885b315336ac\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is good and this agreement is good for New Zealand because the future of New Zealand and its economy is in exporting more goods and being an open country: forward facing, looking towards other parts of the world where we can contribute and sell our goods. The Asian markets and the Asian countries are a big part of where New Zealand\u2019s future opportunities lie. New Zealand\u2019s participation in this agreement with this bank is also important, because having good infrastructure in Asian countries where they can grow and where they can develop and demand more of our goods is going to be good for New Zealand as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EMany of the speeches in this House have already covered those points, and I do not want to dwell on them, but I do want to point out some of the aspects in the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee\u2019s report on the international treaty examination. There is some good stuff in that report. It talks about the fact that \u201CWe\u201D\u2014the committee\u2014\u201Cconsider that New Zealand\u2019s early involvement in the bank provided a good opportunity to influence its direction\u201D. It talks about the fact that being a founding member of the bank \u201Calso makes sense for geo-strategic, political, and economic reasons.\u201D The report goes on to say that \u201CNew Zealand\u2019s economic future is linked to the Asia region, and Asia\u2019s growth is increasingly constrained by limited infrastructure investment capital.\u201D These are very good points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EI do want to point out to the House that when the committee considered this treaty, the committee included one Fletcher Tabuteau. The committee included the New Zealand First Party. In this report there is not a single word of opposition to this treaty. At the committee meeting the New Zealand First Party and the New Zealand First member did not have a whisper, did not have a murmur, did not have a squeak of opposition to this bank. But New Zealand First members come into this House and they beat their chests day after day on issues on which in the select committee they sit there quietly like little lambs, supporting very much of what the Government is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EIf Mr Tabuteau wants to be honest with the New Zealand public\u2014he said we should go and be honest with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0313bcc66cd42a9a374e11281bd7048\u0022\u003EFletcher Tabuteau\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance here. Mr Ross is completely misrepresenting the facts. I did speak out against this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcf45e85db4b4067ae91f447a1d8c1f5\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. It is a matter for debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022271338f3b9034563b96c08c3f51675b9\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS\u003C/span\u003E: The report speaks for itself. There is no minority report; there are no points about some members disagreeing with x, y, or z in the report. New Zealand First members are little lambs in select committees. In select committees they do not oppose what the Government is doing, but they come in here and beat their chests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThis is good for the country. This is good for New Zealand\u2019s future growth and economic opportunity. That is why we are supporting it. I suggest New Zealand First members would be better off continuing with the position they take in select committees when they come into this House and contribute to debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u002276185576b5464446b0472df0dd627006\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276185576b5464446b0472df0dd627006\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A Green Party 5-minute call\u2014Dr Russel Norman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u002208e03df11f8549c0b2df2d4b259e664b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208e03df11f8549c0b2df2d4b259e664b\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the Green Party to support this bill. I think what we are recognising with the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank is that the global economic institutions are having to accommodate the growth of China. Of course, China\u2019s initial gambit was actually to increase voting rights and reform voting rights in the International Monetary Fund, but that attempt to reform the International Monetary Fund and voting rights within the fund has been blocked by the US Congress. People may or may not know that in order to change the voting rights within the International Monetary Fund, you have to get an 85 percent vote from the fund, and, of course, the United States controls 16 percent of the votes on the International Monetary Fund board, so it can block any attempt to reform voting rights on the board. China, of course, has only about 3.8 percent of the vote in the IMF, and yet it currently represents more like 15 percent of global GDP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ESo the old economic institutions\u2014the Bretton Woods institutions that were set up after World War II\u2014were an attempt to represent the global economy at the time and to provide global economic governance of a sort. They have done that, at times well and at times extremely poorly. But those economic institutions simply have to change to reflect the rise of China, and they have not. And, really, the US Government\u2014in particular, Congress\u2014has only itself to blame for the invention of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWhat China said eventually\u2014when it got completely frustrated by the lack of reform in the global economic infrastructure\u2014is that, OK, it would set up its own. Of course the United States said that that was totally unacceptable and no one would join it. A number of countries have, of course, joined China, including Britain and New Zealand, and eventually a whole raft of countries signed up to the infrastructure bank, and that is what we are, effectively, doing here today. And I think that is a good thing. The reality is that the world has changed. China is now a huge part of the global economy, and the global economic institutions simply need to reflect that. So that is the first point I would like to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe second point is that I just hope that the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank does a really good job. At various times the IMF and the World Bank have done a good job; at other times they have done a terrible job. During the 1997 Asian crisis, the intervention of the IMF and the World Bank at that point was disastrous, as Joseph Stiglitz went on to write about. He was the chief economist at the World Bank. So there have been times when the global economic institutions have played a positive role, and at times a very negative role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe third point I would like to make about the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank is that sustainability needs to be at the heart of the thing. The president-elect of the bank has said \u201Clean, clean, and green\u201D\u2014his rhyming description of what he wants to do. The green stuff is really important now in Asia. I think people from outside do not realise how rapidly this has come to the centre of things. Obviously, a lot of it is about air quality. In those giant Chinese cities air quality has now become a big focus. But also the Chinese Government is getting its head around climate change in a big way, and of course it is the world\u2019s leading producer of solar panels and is the leading installer of a lot of different kinds of renewable energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ESo the green part of it is tremendously important, and we need it in the infrastructure that is built over the next 20 years in East and South Asia, in particular, where there is a massive growth. If that infrastructure uses clean energy rather than coal and dirty energy, that will make a fundamental difference to the future of climate change on this planet. That really is going to be one of the deciding factors. Does India, for example, put in coal-fired power, or does India use sustainable energy? That will be one of the deciding factors in the future of planet Earth for us and our children. That is one of the key questions\u2014and likewise all through South-east Asia and East Asia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ESo if the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank can play a positive role in pushing in a sustainable direction for those giant infrastructure projects that are going to determine the future of life on planet Earth, then that will be a very positive thing. We do not yet know the outcome of that, but the Green Party is very hopeful, given some of the early comments, that it will be sustainable and it will push infrastructure in a sustainable direction, and we very, very much hope that New Zealand uses its influence to push infrastructure in that direction. Of course, unfortunately, the current New Zealand Government obviously goes in the opposite direction, but at some point, hopefully, there will be some representatives on the board from New Zealand who push that bank to embrace sustainability more than it already does. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002264a7fb3194714613acfae210ee280454\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264a7fb3194714613acfae210ee280454\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short, 5-minute call in support of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. I have got only 5 minutes so I will be very quick and clear about the reasons for that support and what is really going on here. I want to strip through some of the officialese that pervades the documents that we have in front of us. Supporting the comments of my colleague Dr Norman and congratulating him on his recent appointment to head Greenpeace New Zealand, can I agree that there is a major gap in the international financial institutions. The World Bank has been spending too little in the Asian region, the Asian Development Bank is worthy but of a smaller scale, and the International Monetary Fund historically has got itself fairly tangled up in driving what has historically been seen as a pro-austerity set of economic measures rather than bankrolling sustainable development. That is less so, it has to be said, under the current chair, Christine Lagarde, and we welcome the progress in the broadening of the IMF\u2019s agenda, but there is a gap. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESecondly, this is about geopolitics. The US, the architect of the Bretton Woods institutions, which include the World Bank and the IMF, really did not respond to the changing geopolitics and China threatened to go it alone. New Zealand was the first Western country to sign up to join this initiative by the People\u2019s Republic of China to get a new Asian investment vehicle up. We did so, as far as I can tell from the documents, for the very good reason that an integrated China is better than an isolated China and that together, provided that sufficient openness and transparency was included in the governance arrangements, we might make this a constructive contributor to the region rather than a divisive one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis is interesting because in parallel with this are the Trans-Pacific Partnership negotiations sponsored by the United States. New Zealand was the first Western country to sign up to this Chinese initiative. You can imagine the pressure that will be on New Zealand to sign up to the Trans-Pacific Partnership and the offset arguments, which are the wrong reasons for signing. It may or may not be a deal worth having but that has got to be judged on its merits in terms of New Zealand\u2019s national interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt brings me to the third point. I deplore the lack of specificity in the select committee papers produced by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee officials. There is no quantitative analysis as to the economic return to New Zealand for this investment, and it is not the first time that an international treaty has been proposed to this House with a matching capital investment, and qualitative rather than quantitative analysis has been provided. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade is capable, along with Treasury, of better than that and Parliament should, frankly, demand it. This is not an inconsiderable amount of New Zealand money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EFourthly, the Future Investment Fund is the source of that capital. This is not only an overspent fantasy but an improper use of Future Investment Fund capital according to the objectives that the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance set for that fund. In that regard I think that New Zealand First has a point\u2014not actually to say that we should not support the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank but to say that the Future Investment Fund is an inappropriate source of that capital. It has already been spent a thousand times over for every pet project of every Minister. It was the result of the fire sale of New Zealand assets, and its funds were to be protected for investment in New Zealand. That has been gainsaid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EFinally, let me say this. New Zealand officials have made a positive contribution to the governance arrangements and the agenda of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, being one of the first Western countries to participate in those negotiations. They have upheld New Zealand\u2019s tradition of constructive engagement. They have done so by ensuring the appointment processes are safeguarded in the articles of agreement, and that there are safeguards around effectiveness and procurement transparency, and collaboration with other global and regional institutions\u2014all built into the articles, and for that I think that our diplomats deserve our thanks and congratulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ELet me conclude by summing up. Firstly, there were and are grievous gaps opening up in the Bretton Woods system of international financial institutions. We ought to work closely with our American friends to ensure that those institutions are modernised and that those gaps are reduced. Secondly, New Zealand was the first Western country to sign up to this Chinese initiative. It is a good initiative but we ought to understand the geopolitics around that. Thirdly, this is being funded from an inappropriate source. It should be funded directly off the Crown balance sheet. Fourthly, we ought to thank our officials for their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa4bcade1611470bb34d341b877cd417\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa4bcade1611470bb34d341b877cd417\u0022\u003EDr JIAN YANG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support our involvement in the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. When I was listening to the speech by the New Zealand First member I got the strong impression that everything Chinese is bad, everything Asian is bad\u2014that is the impression. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EThe world has changed. China is the second-largest world economy, and many of the fast-growing economies in the world are in Asia. So this is the reality. Look at our trade with China. China is our second or first trading partner. In the 1970s our trade with Asia accounted for about 10 percent of all our trade but today over 40 percent of our trade is done with Asia, so that is how important Asia is to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EIt is clear that Asia needs that infrastructure. According to a 2009 Asian Development Bank report we need about US$8 trillion for Asian infrastructure, so that is why we need to help Asia. To help Asia is to help New Zealand, simply because Asia is so important to us. Our contribution is very small but symbolically it is very important, so I am very pleased\u2014I am very pleased\u2014that New Zealand is the very first OECD country to sign up to this China-led initiative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EIt is good for us because, as many members have mentioned, we have many firsts in our relations with China, and this is another first. It is important for us to strengthen our relations with China and with Asia simply because we are so close to the region economically and also culturally and in terms of people-to-people relations. So I support the International Finance Agreements Amendment Bill wholeheartedly, and I think we are doing a good job for New Zealand. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b97db694bcd849da986b69339b08646e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b97db694bcd849da986b69339b08646e\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E We on this side of the House, from the Labour Party, have indicated that we will be supporting this bill. Markets are powerful institutions. They make excellent servants and terrifying masters. Of course, the open flow of capital has beneficial effects where countries benefit from trade, but it can also have detrimental effects when markets are exposed and when some countries struggle to compete where they have not found their comparative advantage and maximised that benefit. We need strong international institutions in order to encourage the kind of trade from which we will all benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe are a global society and, increasingly, all of our futures are intertwined. This region is no different. When China sneezes, the US stock markets catch a cold, and so our future prosperity is dependent on our neighbours doing well and on us doing well also. That prosperity in our region has effects in terms of security, liberty, and peace. Prosperity itself creates the conditions for strengthening and maintaining the rule of law. It is a virtuous cycle that, of course, is then a key plank in prosperity itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI think that the path to reducing inequalities is part of creating a more prosperous society. We know that societies with low inequalities have higher social mobility and in those societies there is less suspicion that the rule of law is there to protect the interests of a favoured few, and so there is less likely to be civil unrest in countries with lower inequalities and higher social mobility. We in New Zealand have a part to play in creating a world with strong institutions that support those countries that are struggling in the global economy, both to introduce prosperity and, from that\u2014and, really, the more important thing\u2014to create countries that people would want to live in, which have security, liberty, and peace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe prosperity of nations is built on the infrastructure that everyone needs but very few people can afford on their own. When I say this, I am thinking of things like hospitals, schools, clean running water, roads, police forces, and courts that are beyond corruption. The principle of fair and equitable access to those institutions and to that infrastructure is critical to social justice and also to the success economically of nations. So here we have the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, which is going to contribute a little bit to that picture through investing in infrastructure in developing economies. These institutions that provide the reasonable financial stability that nations need ensure that the opportunities for growth that free capital flows bring are more likely to be grasped and also, I guess, they give the confidence that when economies are open, not just will they have the opportunity for the growth but they will be somewhat protected from the downsides of globalisation and those effects will be mitigated against. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis legislation and this investment bank, the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, are not without risks. We read in the report that has been adapted from the negotiators meeting, the report of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, that there are many risks ahead, and some of them are, of course, risks that any new institution like this might face. There is a learning process with any new institution. People have to find their roles. Countries have to find their roles within this. Those risks, though, should not stop us wanting to support something that is genuinely good for the world, that we hope will reduce inequality, and that will begin to address the problems of climate change and other environmental and social impacts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESome of these things are listed in the paper and they very clearly outline the risks and the kinds of things that they would want to achieve with the bank: \u201CThe environmental and social safeguards draft policy outlines an approach to (i) identifying and managing environmental and social risks, (ii) the formulation and implementation of environment and social management plans for each AIIB operation, and (iii) ongoing monitoring and post-project evaluation.\u201D\u2014these are all things that of course we would wish to support\u2014\u201CThe policy covers biodiversity, sustainable land use, climate change and greenhouse gas emissions; gender, working conditions, community health and safety; and child labour and forced labour.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThese are all things that we would like to see progress on, not just in our own country but across the Asia region, and we recognise that with that stability, with the implementation of those ideals, comes prosperity not just for those countries but also for neighbouring countries. We all benefit from having a safer, fairer world where all have access to justice, where all feel they have a stake and can make a contribution, and where people do not feel excluded from participating in the economy and from justice. So Labour supports this legislation that will enable the Government to become a member of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, and we are pleased that the Government is taking these steps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThere is, of course, a somewhat comical aspect to this in that various members of the House\u2014not comical; I use that word kind of reluctantly because it would be comical were it not so serious. The Future Investment Fund, we are told, is where this money is coming from, but that is money that has already been spent on a variety of other projects by this Government. We know this fund is a mythical pot of money that the Government has created. First, it was going to pay down huge amounts of debt from it, but we find that this Government has borrowed more money than the Government of Muldoon. It is now $100 billion in debt, and that debt has been growing year by year. This is a Government that has continued to borrow, and yet it said initially that this Future Investment Fund would be used to pay down debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWell, I return to the point, which is that we are told that this contribution that we are making\u2014this $92 million to the bank\u2014will be paid for out of the Future Investment Fund, and I am questioning whether that is indeed possible, given that this fund has been spent on so many different things, including the roof of the Beehive building. The roof of the Beehive building has come out of that. We were told it was going to be used for schools and hospitals and other infrastructure that would help our prosperity in the future, but it has also paid for compliance for tax legislation and for repairs to Te Papa and to fund the census and to fund\u2014I mean, for goodness\u2019 sake! These are the things coming out of this Future Investment Fund. It has been spent many times over, and my colleagues have drawn attention to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215a00da65b4b4298b92d35c0ee0047a3\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Magic money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d4eaeca20d249e290a4edd316c8c133\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is magic money that can be spent again. David Parker listed the likes of Kiwibank receiving funding from it, Chris Finlayson buying memorials out of it, and Auckland transport and the Canterbury rebuild\u2014you name it, the Future Investment Fund has been labelled as the source of this magic money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo here we have a $92 million contribution. We in the Labour Party think that this is a useful thing to be investing in. We need stronger financial institutions in the world. If we are all going to capture the benefits of flows of capital, we need to have the kinds of strong institutions that give countries confidence to participate in global markets\u2014that give them the confidence that there is some level of security that should their economies stumble, there will be investment in the kind of infrastructure that builds economies over time. We will be supporting this bill and we want to see stronger international institutions to support economies in the interests of prosperity and the interests of fairness and in the interests of creating a better world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022e54808bf70e04149b556f4f1be6fabbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e54808bf70e04149b556f4f1be6fabbb\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E The Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank is, clearly, a very significant initiative that has enormous potential to be of great benefit to New Zealand\u2019s future economic growth, and therefore I have great pleasure in supporting the measure. I thank most members in the Opposition parties for their support of the measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002212028cc12f3145eebaee89b29c427d71\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the International Finance Agreements Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 12.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000321\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5d0241392b44b4e902ac979937a260c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5d0241392b44b4e902ac979937a260c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the International Finance Agreements Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 22 October 2015 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 191 and 194(1)(b) and (c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of reasons for moving this motion. The first is that the proposition has already had extensive and thorough scrutiny from the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee as part of the parliamentary treaty examination process, and that committee reported to the House last month. I would have to say that that inquiry was held in a constructive and positive atmosphere, and I think that members of the committee noted the efforts of officials representing New Zealand and their efforts to achieve a truly modern, multilateral institutional framework for the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank\u2014not a bad effort for a small country that will hold only a fraction of the capital. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI may say that, in that respect, our fleeting moments of influence are probably now over in respect of the bank. That means that a foreshortened select committee hearing will not foreshorten the opportunity for Parliament or the public to understand the nature of the bill. In a technical sense, the earlier date will allow New Zealand to join the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank as the articles of the agreement enter into force, and that will enable us to continue to play a constructive and effective role as the bank begins its operations at the end of the year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI think that is consistent with what has been an effort across almost 50 countries to expedite this bill. It is a small part that we can play to get it through the select committee by 22 October.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00226cdb6209a52740f8961c057f22feae6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cdb6209a52740f8961c057f22feae6a\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I do thank the Minister of Finance for that explanation of the thinking behind this motion; however, I want to say at the outset that the practice of the Government of coming to this House with truncated select committee processes is one that Labour regards with\u2014I guess the best word is \u201Csuspicion\u201D. Frankly, it happens too often, and it goes against what is good practice in this Parliament. Of course there will be reasons from time to time why a piece of legislation needs a short select committee turn-round. It may be a matter of particular urgency that has arisen; it may simply be because the issues involved are ones that are completely non-controversial and there are no issues that need to be considered. But actually that situation will be extremely rare, and once again I think that we have got a piece of legislation here that is getting a truncated select committee process because the Government cannot manage its own business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIf we look at some of the dates involved in this situation, the original finalisation of the text was adopted at the fifth chief negotiators meeting on 22 May. New Zealand then finalised its signatory to the agreement on 29 June. What was happening after that? Why did it then take until August for the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee to be able to give its report to Parliament? The committee met on 28 July and then on 20 August. There is just this constant slippage in the process. So you have an agreement that is actually signed off in May, that New Zealand signs up to in June, that eventually finds its way to the committee towards the end of July, that emerges out of the committee in August, and that gets to Parliament here in September. At some point did someone on the Government benches go: \u201CYou know what, we actually need to get a wriggle on here if we are going to get this passed by the end of the year.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1fe2e3ed3f44b63ba227c9d3ba30448\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Gerry should\u2019ve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383bca22388a45828adc60e91caa7c65\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Leader of the House\u2014the last time that we did this was only on the last sitting day of Parliament\u2014the Leader of the House\u2019s management of the legislative programme is hopeless. What happens is that members of Parliament and members of the public are the ones who suffer as a result of that. I take the point that the Minister has made that the matters covered in this bill have had a reasonable amount of examination by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, but that does not reduce the importance of the public seeing this legislation and having the chance to comment on it or MPs having a chance to consider the full range of issues that will arise. I actually believe that if the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee were simply given the information that this bill needs to be enacted before the end of the year, it is quite within its power and wit to say: \u201CYup, we understand that.\u201D It is a pretty good committee; it operates fairly collegially. It would get the bill reported back with plenty of time, but without this arbitrary restriction around it being reported back by 22 October. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo it is with regret that we are not going to be able to support this. It places pressure on all parties in Parliament. The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee has representatives of smaller parties in this House. Those members find it very hard to be able to attend select committee meetings when the House is sitting, because they do not have the resources. It is even a stretch for other, larger parties to have that. It interferes with the business of MPs who perhaps are not available on Fridays or on other days on which this motion would allow the select committee to meet. So it is extremely disappointing from this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThese are serious issues within this bill. We support the New Zealand signatory to the establishment of the bank through this piece of legislation, but nobody, including the Minister of Finance, has stood up here today and said that this is without risk or that this is without issues around governance, which need to be clearly sorted through. We need to give the public the opportunity to be a part of that debate. New Zealand is contributing over $100 million. This is a new venture in terms of how to fund infrastructure in the Asian region. It goes against what some of our traditional allies would want, so that is a serious matter as well. All of these are matters that deserve full and proper public attention, and I simply do not think that it is good enough for the Government\u2019s disorganisation to be the cause of limited involvement by the public. If there is another good reason, by all means, but that is not how it appears to us on this side of the House. We know that this legislation could have been in front of the House any time from the end of June onwards, and the failure of the Government to get a piece of legislation together in time so that we do not need a truncated select committee process is ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI do also just want to finish my comments by saying that I think we need to treat individual committees with some respect. The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee would have been capable of making a decision about getting this bill back so that we can sign it up, so that it is all sealed and delivered before the end of the year, so that we will be there when the bank first kicks off its operations. I am very disappointed that this motion has found its way to the House. It is, unfortunately, becoming a pattern from this Government to have truncated select committee processes. We do not think that that is good enough, and we will oppose measures unless there is a very good reason to support them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022 data-id=\u00224dbba69aa1664307b3ec2d5c9e5aba6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224dbba69aa1664307b3ec2d5c9e5aba6f\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First would like to stand up to oppose this proposal from the Minister of Finance. I would like to acknowledge a lot of what was spoken to by the previous member, Grant Robertson. This is a truncated process and essentially undermines democracy. It undermines democracy and a longstanding process that has been accepted by the members of this House over decades of practice and participation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EIt should be noted, especially coming from New Zealand First, that smaller parties with only one member on such select committees are compromised entirely by this truncated process, as we are unable to fully engage in this process in a meaningful way. We must make the very tough decisions of either contributing to the conversation and forgoing other work that we are obligated to do for this House in representing the people of New Zealand, or we choose to represent the people of New Zealand in other business and we forgo our representation on this select committee, for example. That is not acceptable. It is not a decision that should be forced on smaller parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EI would just like to end our opposition by voicing the fact that yet again this is another example of the Government taking an unwarranted opportunity to truncate a democratic process and take away, essentially, the voice of New Zealanders in terms of a contribution to a good, fair, and meaningful select committee process. We certainly cannot support this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb6f25c9cd3047d7be08607770d8c4c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb6f25c9cd3047d7be08607770d8c4c9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call to join with my colleagues in opposing the truncated report-back time for the International Finance Agreements Amendment Bill. The proposal has been made by the Government that the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee should have only 5 weeks, until 22 October, to report this bill back. This is a bill that the Government negotiated back in May, and it has taken months to get to this House. The Government is now proposing that the difference be made up by denying the New Zealand public the opportunity to make considered submissions on the bill and to have those submissions considered in the normal way. I wish to refer, firstly, to the type of work that confronts the select committee and why it is important to have adequate consultation and deliberation, and, secondly, to the broader picture of the threats to democratic process and good governance, which this move is yet another small part of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe job in front of the select committee is to complement the work that the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee has done. We have a 3-page report from that committee. That is about $40 million worth of capital investment per page\u2014assuming that the 500 and something million dollars of call facility is never called. But, as Bill English would say\u2014I see Bill over there, doing urgent negotiations with the M\u0101ori Party\u2014$500 million here, $500 million there, and pretty soon you are talking real money. Well, for New Zealanders that is already real money, and that is why we deserve more than 5 weeks to consider how it is being spent\u2014more so because the Government is pinching from Peter to pay Paul. It is pinching from the Future Investment Fund\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a97409d7ffdc404aacb7df4b9385ee59\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is not part of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219ca0d81be2f4febae3e3dca751df092\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to provide this capital. We covered that in the earlier debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee has looked, at a very broad and general level, at the work the New Zealand officials did\u2014which we have earlier acknowledged was good work\u2014on progressing this treaty. What it has not done is a comprehensive national interest analysis. In Appendix B it has done what I think would be called a qualitative national interest analysis. It goes through the provisions of the bank. It goes through the purposes of the bank. It notes, in the Treasury documents, some of the safeguards, the protocols, the purposes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c2e018a1af84725be1ee0a259f9d835\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! When we are doing an instruction to the select committee on a truncated report-back period, you cannot refer to the contents of the bill, as you are doing. I refer the member to Standing Order 290(3): \u201CAny debate on the question for a motion under this Standing Order is restricted to the special powers or instruction set out in the motion. It may not extend to the principles, objects, or provisions of the bill to which the motion relates.\u201D I will ask the member to come back to talk about why this process is being truncated and the reasons that the member wishes to express.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a20806ae50fa479f937274fb4869df53\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for your clarification and guidance on that. The agreement was negotiated on 22 May. New Zealand signed the agreement on 29 June. It was considered by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on 28 July and 2 August\u2014only two meetings to produce a pretty thin report. The bill has come to the House now to be debated at first reading on 15 September, and we are being asked to require the Finance and Expenditure Committee to report it back to the House in fewer than 5 weeks. That is an inadequate time. It denies the public the proper opportunity to consider what is a large and complex set of documents for a large and significant amount of capital. We think the New Zealand public deserves better than that. I do not think it is out of scope to say that as part of that compressed time frame there are risks that the proper financial, economic, and legislative analysis that would normally be done for such a complex instrument could well be compromised. It is that which is our immediate concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EMoving on, can I also say in respect of this truncated time frame proposal from the Government, that there has been a habit of coming to this House with requests for compressed select committee timetables. For members of the public who may be watching or listening, a normal select committee process, as you well know, Mr Assistant Speaker Tisch, would expect to take about 6 months. That would give a committee adequate time to advertise, to wait for the public to prepare their submissions, to receive an analysis of those submissions, to consider that analysis, to prepare a report, and to get it back to the House. Under our Standing Orders, which you are of course the master of, Mr Assistant Speaker, the House would then consider the bill at second reading, clause by clause in the Committee of the whole House, and at third reading. It is just not possible to do that in 5 weeks, and something will be compromised by that time frame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EFinally, I do think it is worth noting that this habit the Government has of compressing select committee considerations does appear to be part of a tendency towards the slow erosion of some of the guarantors of our Westminster tradition. Around Wellington you hear public servants saying how little the current Government cares for the convention of free and frank advice, how much Ministers are expecting officials to tell them what they want to hear, and how the Government is railroading through proposals\u2014sometimes involving close associates. The tradition of free and frank advice is there for good reason. For any Government, whatever its stripes, it is much better to find out the bugs and problems in legislation before decisions are made, rather than afterwards, and find out the hard way. In protecting the select committee timetable for this bill we also wish to make a nod to the broader conventions that underlie good governance in our Westminster system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EFinally, of course, that other guarantor of good governance is the free and independent press. I guess many watchers of the media are watching with some concern the impact of new technologies on traditional broadcasting models and the importance that that places on a strong public broadcasting system with a reputation for independence and integrity, which can ensure proper public debate of issues like this\u2014complex issues, international issues, issues that are not the product of reality TV or flag consideration panels, or other matters that seem to clog up the news websites. Five weeks is not enough time to consider a matter that has a contingent liability for the New Zealand taxpayer of over $600 million. The bill has been months in the production, in which New Zealand officials have played a proud role, and in principle we are happy to support it. But this timetable is not appropriate. It does not do justice to the best traditions of this House. We are opposed to the motion that the select committee process be truncated to a mere 5 weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00226e78242d3d754927a825cb40837d3365\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e78242d3d754927a825cb40837d3365\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E There is an old saying that is that you cannot know what you do not know\u2014you cannot know what you do not know. As I stand here, I do not know whether there are hidden mistakes in this bill and whether they are significant. As a member of select committees, including, at times, the Finance and Expenditure Committee, I know that it is through the select committee process that we run in this Parliament that you tease out mistakes in legislation\u2014sometimes errors as to words or grammar, which have effect as to meaning, and sometimes errors as to policy. These things are brought to the attention of select committees through the select committee processes, which take time. More often than not, the mistakes that are found in legislation are identified by submitters to the legislation who are interested in the areas and go over it with a fine-tooth comb. In a Parliament that has only got one House of Parliament\u2014we have not got an Upper Chamber to correct mistakes and shoot things back to the main House of Representatives when mistakes are identified in the Upper House\u2014we are more reliant on select committee processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would say is the Finance and Expenditure Committee is dominated by Government members. They hold a majority on that committee, and they are in control of their own process. Another piece of legislation, which was actually more controversial than this, where the Government wanted to speed up progress recently, was on the reduction in tariffs consequent on the New Zealand - Korea free-trade agreement. Minister Groser approached us and, indeed, me on our behalf, to see whether we would agree to a truncated select committee process. I said no, for two reasons. One was that it would just feed suspicion within the population that their rights were being run roughshod over, and, two, I thought it was wrong in principle. We all knew on the select committee\u2014and, actually, I did not sit for the hearings on that bill, but everyone who was on that select committee knew\u2014that there was an interest in actually doing it properly, and so the select committee, quite properly, did not take the full amount of time that Parliament allowed it because we had heard the request from the Government that it was in New Zealand\u2019s interest to pass the legislation promptly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo the select committee did not muck about. It called for submissions through a tight period and it reported the legislation back to Parliament very promptly, well within the normal select committee period that was allowed. The process was done properly, the bill was properly scrutinised, and the Government still achieved its objective. In respect of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, it is the most senior committee in Parliament in some ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231646e6323c246339e8bc104afa405e2\u0022\u003EHon Christopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: It is not\u2014Privileges is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022967ccab6e34e47a496fc18c76d039d4c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, excluding the Privileges Committee\u2014quite right, Mr Attorney-General. Excluding the Privileges Committee, it is known as the senior committee. It has senior representatives from all parties, including the Government, and it is in control of its own processes. Why can the Government not trust its own select committee, which it has got the numbers on, to actually give this the urgency that it needs, if urgency is needed, and have a period where it calls for a shortened period of submissions, perhaps, so that it can proceed promptly with consideration of the bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe date of 22 October is a bit more than a month away\u2014what, about a month and a week away? It is hard for submitters in that time, if they are volunteer organisations, which most of the submitters are\u2014from the New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants or, I do not know, there will be some international foreign affairs organisations or the Law Society. These committees are generally populated by people who are doing this in their own time. They have reporting structures that are periodic. They cannot make these decisions as to what the submission should be off their own bat, generally; they have to take it to a committee to whom they are accountable and get its approval. That all takes time. You cannot do it in a period that then enables the committee to give consideration to the submissions that are made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe terms of the treaty itself really are not up for grabs. They have been considered by the prior select committee, so I do not think that the detailed consideration of the articles will be too hard and, indeed, the terms of the bill are reasonably clear. It is not a complex bill. It is an important bill, because it involves a lot of money, but it is not a complex bill. So I would have confidence that the Finance and Expenditure Committee, if there was a pressing national interest\u2014as in a New Zealand interest, as opposed to a National Party interest\u2014in reporting this back promptly, would responsibly go about its business and do just that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to reinforce some of the criticisms that have been made in terms of what is our representative democracy. All the members of this select committee, including members of minor parties, ought to be able to appear. I know that one of the members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee is the Rt Hon Winston Peters. He is a busy man. He is the leader of the New Zealand First Party, he is the representative up north, and he is on this Finance and Expenditure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8a8414718ff48a5b363aad9fbf46c7b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, it is not for me to interfere with the member\u2019s speech, but this bill is not going to the Finance and Expenditure Committee; it is going to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c885cc304df048b1baa4f0ef086bcc7b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I am sorry. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I thought this was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2fab15c24204e91bc1eea9887e8b9a7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: One moment. For those who may be listening, previous speakers have talked about the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, which this bill is being referred to. You are referring to a different committee. I am just trying to help you so that people are not confused about which committee it is going to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022262b0379a2bd498f834484c0c323a045\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I was not here when the Hon Bill English put the motion, so I am sorry I picked that incorrectly. It is going to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, but it is, itself, a senior committee. It is actually one of the committees that run on a more consensual basis than some of the other committees. I have sat on it at times, and it is a more collegial committee, a less adversarial committee, and it is trying to achieve things in the New Zealand interest. I am sure that that committee, too, would be able to report this bill back promptly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat brings you back to the why. Why? Why is it that the Government is putting Parliament in the position that it has to agree on an inappropriately short select committee period? That comes back to competence of Government. If this agreement was agreed in May and signed in June, why is that we, at this late stage and at this late juncture, are only now considering the legislation? Why could not the legislation have been produced earlier and have been put to the select committee at the same time as the treaty? Nothing in the Standing Orders would have prevented that. Indeed, it would have been more efficient for submitters. Submitters could have been considering the treaty at the same time as they were considering the bill that accompanied it. These things could have been done in parallel by the Government, they should have been, and if they had done that, we would not be contemplating this poor process, which leads to less robust outcomes. For those reasons, the Labour Party will be opposing this motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f48dabec1b584564a1f6e42eef00be25\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the International Finance Agreements Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 22 October 2015 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 191 and 194(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022995fca48904e426998da2afb6cd08305\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Purposes Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7bc641709eb41409d9ad5009a574bb3\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u002294ce8fd23a5c49c49ad4f93207a8bc4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294ce8fd23a5c49c49ad4f93207a8bc4a\u0022\u003EHon TE URUROA FLAVELL (Minister for M\u0101ori Development):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa e noho nei i roto i t\u014D t\u0101tou Whare. Ka nui te mihi ki a t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker, and greetings to us all seated here in our House. I appreciate us all greatly.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI move, That the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee to consider the bill. This M\u0101ori Purposes Bill amends the Maori Purposes Act 1991 to improve the governance arrangements for the W\u012B Pere Trust. This includes enhancing the trust\u2019s operational capability and removing unnecessary Crown involvement in the administration of the trust. It is a huge privilege and honour to present this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBy way of some background, the W\u012B Pere Trust was established in 1899 to administer the estate of W\u012Bremu Pere, a prominent East Coast politician who graced the halls of this Parliament in his day. In 1906 the trust became a statutory trust, and the trust deed has been incorporated in legislation since the early 20th century. The W\u012B Pere Trust is now governed by the Maori Purposes Act 1991 and has grown to be a successful enterprise. The trust has approximately 460 beneficiaries with land and other net assets valued at nearly $66 million, as at June 2014.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe Maori Purposes Act 1991 requires the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs\u2014currently the Minister for M\u0101ori Development\u2014to be responsible for certain aspects of the trust\u2019s administration. The internal management of the trust is also detailed in the provisions of the Maori Purposes Act 1991. This means that any changes to the way the trust operates must be effected through statutory amendment. The M\u0101ori Purposes Bill removes the need for further ministerial involvement in the administration of the trust. It empowers the trust to adopt rules relating to internal management, and that can only be good. The bill also replaces the current trustees of the W\u012B Pere Trust with an incorporated trust board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThese amendments will provide more commercial flexibility for the trust in the future. They will strengthen the direct relationship of accountability between the W\u012B Pere Trust Board and the beneficiaries of that trust. The trust board will be accountable to beneficiaries under the constitution and will continue to be accountable under the Trustee Act 1956 and the amended Maori Purposes Act. The trust\u2019s register of beneficial interests is currently maintained by the M\u0101ori Land Court. In line with recognising the W\u012B Pere Trust\u2019s autonomy over its own affairs, the bill allows the trust to control and maintain its own register of beneficial interests. This will help the trust to administer its unique succession rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Purposes Bill continues and clarifies the W\u012B Peri Trust\u2019s longstanding succession provisions as set out in the Maori Purposes Act 1991. Succession to beneficial interest in the W\u012B Peri Trust is limited to direct lineal descendants of W\u012B Peri himself. However, the beneficiary spouses and children and remoter issue who are not lineal descendants can succeed to life interests. It is important for beneficiaries of the W\u012B Pere Trust that these unique succession provisions are maintained: firstly, to preserve the whakapapa of W\u012B Pere; secondly, to honour his wishes to provide for his whanau; and, finally, to pass on the legacy of W\u012B Pere to his descendants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe Maori Purposes Act 1991 provides that all land forming part of the trust property is deemed to be M\u0101ori freehold land. Under Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993, M\u0101ori freehold land is subject to alienation restrictions and requirements that general land is not. These restrictions are designed to promote retention of M\u0101ori freehold land by M\u0101ori but also to considerably limit the W\u012B Pere Trust\u2019s use of this land. The M\u0101ori Purposes Bill removes the current provision deeming all land held by the trust to be M\u0101ori freehold land and enables the trust to hold general land for investment purposes. It reverts land owned by the W\u012B Pere Trust, which was general land at the time it was acquired, to its original general land status. These changes will allow the trust to exercise far greater economic autonomy in the management of its landholdings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Purposes Bill clarifies the relationship between Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993 and the legislation governing the W\u012B Pere Trust. It also clarifies the respective jurisdictions of the M\u0101ori Land Court and the High Court in respect of the trust. The High Court will have jurisdiction over matters relating to governance and general land held by the W\u012B Pere Trust. The M\u0101ori Land Court will have jurisdiction in relation to M\u0101ori freehold land held by the W\u012B Pere Trust. A new Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori bill has been drafted. These feature future changes that may impact on the amended Maori Purposes Act 1991, though the Act will likely require only consequential amendments to update references to the new Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori bill. The bill provides a framework tailored to the needs of the W\u012B Pere Trust to govern itself while maintaining key protections for M\u0101ori land set out in Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe amendments to the Maori Purposes Act 1991, can I say, were initiated at the request of the representatives of the W\u012B Pere Trust. Representatives of the trust have been closely involved in the development of this M\u0101ori Purposes bill. The trustees consulted formally with beneficiaries in 2009 and again in 2013. I hope that information will be helpful to those considering the bill tonight. Of the beneficiaries who voted on the amendments, 91 percent supported the changes to the trust\u201491 percent\u2014as given effect to by the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill corrects a minor technical error in the Maori Trust Boards (Transitional Provisions) Order 2012. This order specifies the transition dates for those M\u0101ori trust boards transferring to revised financial accountability requirements under the updated Maori Trust Boards Act 1955. The order mistakenly refers to the Tauranga Moana M\u0101ori Trust Board as the Tauranga M\u0101ori Trust Board. The M\u0101ori Purposes Bill corrects this error.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I want to thank all of those who participated in the consultation on these amendments. I am confident that these amendments will contribute to the autonomy of the W\u012B Pere Trust to manage its own affairs, something that it wants and something that it should be given. It will enable a successful M\u0101ori enterprise to operate more effectively in a commercial environment. With those words I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u002265a2446a48554ad5a1bf1c6c456f2137\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265a2446a48554ad5a1bf1c6c456f2137\u0022\u003EMEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. E ng\u0101 mema o te Whare nei, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. Can I preface my contribution to today\u2019s bill with a couple of acknowledgements. Firstly, some 40 years ago an 80-year-old woman, whom we all know, Dame Whina Cooper, left Te H\u0101pua to lead the historic land march under the banner of \u201CNot another acre more\u201D. Her legacy around protecting M\u0101ori land is, for me, a preface to my contribution to this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EHer commitment 40 years ago is something all M\u0101ori members of this House need to uphold, and her commitment to \u201CNot another acre more\u201D was not just about those non-M\u0101ori who may be threatening to take whenua, but actually amongst our own, I am sure. In my second contribution, I want to acknowledge another M\u0101ori member who is going to join us very shortly, Marama Davidson. I look forward to her expertise when she joins us here in the ranks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ECan I turn to the purpose of this bill and thank the Minister for M\u0101ori Development for outlining its purpose. Labour, can I put on record, will support this bill to the select committee but with reservations\u2014reservations that I, hopefully, will outline in my contribution. As the Minister has outlined, the main aim of the bill, which is an omnibus bill, is to amend the Maori Purposes Act 1991 in so far as it governs the W\u012B Pere Trust, and it also amends the Maori Trust Boards (Transitional Provisions) Order 2012. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ECan I add, as the member for Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti, which the W\u012B Pere Trust descends from, that it is a very successful wh\u0101nau whenua trust. I too whakapapa to that, being a descendant of Thomas Halbert, who is actually the father of W\u012B Pere. So I acknowledge my whakapapa to this particular bill and what its intention is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EHowever, when we look at what it is trying to create\u2014and I am going to go through the amendments one by one and offer some comments around what this bill is trying to achieve. Let me first turn to the amendments that I support, which were outlined by the Minister. Point one: \u201Callow the trust board to adopt rules relating to internal management and governance, and set out the new trust board\u2019s initial constitution \u2026\u201D. Clearly, as a progressive future-focused organisation, you want the ability to run your own affairs, and to me that makes absolute sense. You cannot do that without a constitution, so I have no issues with that particular provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EWe move to the next one, and that is to \u201Cremove unnecessary ministerial involvements in the governance of the trust;\u201D. I think we should remove all ministerial involvements in the trust, but we have certain ministerial involvements, meaning there must be some good ministerial involvements we want to retain, but we also say that that too does not send any alarm bells.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EMoving to \u201Cenable the trust to acquire and hold general land for investment purposes;\u201D\u2014again, if you are a successful business, you want the opportunity to invest, be it in land or be it in other resource areas. So, again, there is no particular issue there. Then we move on to \u201Callow the trust to maintain its own register of beneficial interests;\u201D. Again, it is important that those in the W\u012B Pere Trust at the present time must have lineage to W\u012B Pere. It is important that they maintain and update the register of beneficial interests, and I do note that if you are a spouse or a wh\u0101ngai, then you currently have life interest in the trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI have pretty much endorsed four of the amendments. Can I now turn to the ones that cause me some concerns. Let us start with the easier one: \u201Creplace the trustees with an incorporated trust board with body corporate status and limited liability;\u201D. Why does that give me some concerns? We are talking about the management and the protection of M\u0101ori whenua\u2014M\u0101ori whenua. So how does turning an entity into a corporate body uphold, protect, and maintain whenua? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EWhen I read that particular provision\u2014which is why we are supporting it going to the select committee, so that we can have submissions on that\u2014that was definitely a concern that came out of Te Ture Whenua Maori Act reviews, of which I attended all four. There was a concern for M\u0101ori landowners around turning their trust into corporate bodies. As we are seeing under this particular regime of this Government, profit is often always put before people. So I want to put it on record that I have a concern with that particular amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI turn to the second amendment that I have a concern with, and that is: \u201Cclarify the interface between the principal Act and the 1993 Act, and the jurisdiction of the M\u0101ori Land Court.\u201D It is no secret that Te Ture Whenua Maori Act, which has been deferred\u2014again, from my experience of attending the four reviews throughout Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti, there are real concerns around what is actually wrong with the M\u0101ori Land Court. Why is this legislation removing the protection that the M\u0101ori Land Court offers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI will refer to the preamble to the current Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993. In that preamble it talks about land, or whenua, as taonga tuku iho, which means that it is to be protected and enhanced for the purpose and that we, the current descendants, are only in terms of custodianship or kaitiakitanga over it. In practice, the preamble, as used by the M\u0101ori Land Court judges, references that particular section when making decisions on land. By this particular amendment, which says it is clarifying \u201Cbetween the principal Act and the 1993 Act, and the jurisdiction of the M\u0101ori Land Court.\u201D\u2014I, again, share my reservations about who is going to protect the M\u0101ori landowners, which is currently done by the M\u0101ori Land Court in the preamble to Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThe third amendment, which I ring-fence because it gives me the greatest concern\u2014I want to share with you that I have spoken to a couple of beneficiaries of W\u012B Pere before I came to the House\u2014is the amendment to \u201Cremove the provision deeming all land held by the trust to be M\u0101ori freehold land;\u201D. I have been trying to paint a picture around the protection of M\u0101ori whenua. Taonga tuku iho, which, perhaps, many in this House do not understand, is our legacy as M\u0101ori MPs and as representatives of constituencies that have been losing many, many acres of land and that have got\u2014and I am sure that the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations will agree\u2014a small pittance of what was taken. Yet here we are, potentially alienating further M\u0101ori whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EFor me, that particular amendment around removing the provision deeming land to be M\u0101ori whenua is a red flag. It is an absolute red flag. On this side, Labour supports the bill, like I said, going to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, but I, like many, many in my electorate and, I am sure, around the country will, have some keen reservations around who is going to pick up that responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI can hear people saying \u201CWell, that\u2019s being a nanny State.\u201D, but trust me, when you get to a certain point when it comes to M\u0101ori whenua, you cannot turn back\u2014and you cannot turn back. So I will say again that Labour, with these reservations, supports this bill going to the select committee. Beyond that, who knows? Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00223f1423631ef747b18ae0fedce512c529\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f1423631ef747b18ae0fedce512c529\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to take a brief call to discuss the possible application of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 to this legislation, so I am doing it as Attorney-General. Normally the obligation of the Attorney-General is to produce a section 7 report if an issue arises, but I have thought long and hard about the matter I want to discuss, and have concluded that the Bill of Rights Act does not apply. But, because it is an important issue, I thought I would take a brief call to highlight it for members of the select committee who in due course will be looking at the bill, if it goes there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs has been stated by the Minister for M\u0101ori Development and the previous speaker, Meka Whaitiri, the bill is going to amend certain provisions of the Maori Purposes Act 1991 relating to the W\u012B Pere Trust. One aspect\u2014and the aspect of the bill that caused me to think long and hard\u2014was the issue of possible discrimination on the grounds of family status. As things stand under the Maori Purposes Act 1991, beneficiaries of the trust are treated differently according to whether they are lineal descendants of W\u012B Pere or descendants as a result of adoption. Those related by blood may inherit a parent\u2019s beneficial interest in the trust and in turn pass that interest to their own children. Those related as a spouse or by adoption inherit only a life interest, which by definition cannot be passed on to their children. So the relevant part of the bill, which is Part 3, is introduced by clause 9 of the bill\u2014and I refer honourable members to the proposed new sections 23, 24, and 25. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EClause 9 inserts a new section 21, which prohibits the disposal of any beneficial interests in the trust property other than in accordance with the new sections to which I have referred: the new section 23, the disposal by will; the new section 24, which deals with intestate; and the new section 25, which deals with the issue of gifts. The effect of the bill will be that a beneficiary may dispose of his or her beneficial interest\u2014whether by will, intestate, or gift\u2014only to a lineal descendant of W\u012B Pere. The phrase \u201Clineal descendant\u201D is defined in the bill as \u201Ca person who is a direct descendant \u2026 by blood\u201D, and so the beneficiary\u2019s spouse, child, or descendant, if not the lineal descendant, is eligible to succeed only to the life interest. So I needed to give some thought as to whether the bill discriminated on a prohibited ground, and I must say that I spent quite some time thinking about the issue, because, as a general principle, treating adopted children differently from non-adoptees gives rise to a prima facie family status discrimination issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EHowever, in the particular context of the bill I consider that the different treatment was justified and not inconsistent with section 19 of the Bill of Rights Act. In forming that conclusion, I had regard to the essentially private character of the trust. The trust\u2019s succession arrangements are very long standing, as the previous speaker said, and are the means by which the trust seeks to preserve its tikanga. Were the trust to be created by deed today it would probably contain exactly the same provisions and be consistent with the Human Rights Act and the Bill of Rights. The fact that the terms of the trust are set out in legislation necessarily engages the Bill of Rights Act because legislation is an act of the legislative branch, but having thought long and hard about it, in my view, this does not on balance obscure the fact that in substance the trust was, and remains, essentially a private one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo I thought I would bring that issue to the attention of the House. It is a very important issue. In a sense I am giving what could be called not a section 7 report, but it is a very important issue, and I want the House to know that as Attorney-General I gave the matter a lot of thought. In my opinion, the bill exemplifies the difficulties in reckoning with matters of indigeneity and ethnic identity in legislation. Generally it is preferable that iwi, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau determine their own membership in accordance with tikanga M\u0101ori, and that the State not impose a non-M\u0101ori world view. Where legislation is used to define rights as between or within various iwi, hap\u016B, or wh\u0101nau, such as through Treaty settlements, any apparent inconsistencies with fundamental human rights have to be shown to be reasonable and justified. I believe they are in this instance for the reasons that I have endeavoured to explain to the House. If people are interested, I can advise them that there is a comprehensive coverage of this point by me that is on the Ministry of Justice website in an opinion dated 27 July 2015. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWith those brief comments on only one aspect of the bill, I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfaf15a9225047e0936ce85ba17fa694\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfaf15a9225047e0936ce85ba17fa694\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call to reiterate the comments of my colleague Meka Whaitiri, the member for Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti, who has stated that Labour will support this bill in its first reading and referral to select committee. We have some questions and some reservations, which may or may not be answered at that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EW\u012B Pere was a member of Parliament, as members before me have highlighted. He served in this House in 1884-87 and then from 1893-1905. We have some questions of the Minister that we think deserve clarification once it gets to the select committee like, for example: much of the intent of this bill could have been dealt with within the changes that are anticipated with Te Ture Whenua Maori Act\u2014why is he preceding that decision or that ability to take up that pathway by having this bill go through the House? The other question is one of a substantive nature around the change in classification of land. I took some time to look into the history of the establishment of the trust, and what comes forth to me is that this was a very innovative way of looking at collective M\u0101ori land ownership under the laws of the time. W\u012B Pere and his wh\u0101nau\u2014well, he encouraged all his wh\u0101nau to transfer all their estates and form a trust under the Native Land Laws Amendment Act 1897. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EAt the time I believe that would have been quite a radical concept\u2014to get everybody to collectivise with the specific purpose of collectivising the utilisation of the land and, therefore, the way in which they were going to look at improving the productivity of that land. There was a trustee\u2014only one trustee was appointed at the time\u2014and they were to be free from any interference from the beneficiaries of that particular land. Again, it was a very innovative and interesting establishment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EReading through some of the history, it is chequered with regard to how that land was managed in a freehold title. I think Walter George Foster of Wellington was the first trustee. It is interesting to track the way in which that estate was utilised\u2014I suspect much for the benefit of the W\u012B Pere descendants, but with a very chequered history. The reason why I draw the attention of the House to that is that in the inception of the trust there was some sense of collectivising interests under an individualised native land tenure system. The point that my colleague Meka Whaitiri makes with regard to the inherent collective aspects of having land held under Te Ture Whenua Maori Act I think still applies, and it is a valid question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe other point that I wanted to draw to the attention of the House is more in the present day. Looking at the website, the estate is being managed well. It was valued at approximately $35.7 million in 2003, and it has a number of commercial interests that are within its operations. That said, it is really important that the beneficiaries of the W\u012B Pere Trust are able to influence the governance decision-making of that particular entity. Again, as far as the collective aspiration and the opportunities generated from the W\u012B Pere Trust are concerned, I would think that the select committee would pursue this with some vigour to ensure that there was widespread consultation with beneficiaries around what has tried to be achieved under this particular bill. If it has indeed been the case that beneficiaries have not been well consulted or that the new terms and conditions of the trustees have not been widely publicised amongst the beneficiary group, I think that would raise some concern for the select committee, but we have ample time through the submissions process to pursue questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe changes in the bill that propose to renew the governance structure\u2014there is some merit in that. In fact, it is happening in other trusts as we speak, and there are opportunities to ensure that, I think, greater leveraging from the estate can occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003ECan I just identify, with regard to the matter that the Minister raised around who has a beneficial interest, that it is certainly my view that the way in which the W\u012B Pere Trust has been specific about who holds a beneficial interest is useful when we are looking at changes that impact on trusts of this kind. It is useful that we reaffirm that this was always the intent from its inception through to the various refinements\u2014and the ability of the trust to operate within its contemporary context. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe reason why I make mention of that is that a number of M\u0101ori members will have experienced in one way or another a range of emotional types of situations where spouses and adopted children have had such a close connection with the whenua that they have been living on and raised on, but it belongs to their spouse by whakapapa, and when their spouse dies they have literally no ability to continue that relationship because it is only for their lifetime interest. I have had one case that comes to mind which was particularly emotive. It pulled at my conscience to ask whether something should be done here. I land on, I guess, the whakapapa connections that people in this House have to their lands and, actually, it is probably landing in the right place\u2014blood, kin relationships to whenua t\u014Dp\u016B must be retained at all costs, and any weakening of those connections can fundamentally break down your kin connection to the area and your ability to be able to continue to, I think, invest back in your whenua t\u014Dp\u016B. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe Minister makes some good points. I am looking forward to this particular bill coming to the select committee and to the ability to ask submitters questions. I have highlighted a number: were beneficiaries consulted widely on the change in this trust deed and the provisions of this particular bill; why is it that the Minister introduced this bill in advance to pending changes to Te Ture Whenua Maori Act; and what ways does the W\u012B Pere Trust envisage that this will help to advance its economic opportunities and well as its social opportunities? I note that it funds\u2014along with the distributions, the shareholding beneficiaries\u2014education grants and tangi grants, and it is engaged in a number of social activities as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI do not want to spend too much time on this first reading of the bill, as I know that the select committee is an important part of the process. I am hoping that the Minister at some point\u2014or a member of the M\u0101ori Party\u2014might get up and let us know when the amendments to Te Ture Whenua Maori Act will be introduced in the House. That will be a robust debate. It is an important debate to be held, but for the time being I support this bill going to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022 data-id=\u0022135a4f5ec549475fb3bb0ce9b4b7d0b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022135a4f5ec549475fb3bb0ce9b4b7d0b7\u0022\u003ENUK KORAKO (National):\u003C/span\u003E E mihi atu ki a koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, huri noa i te Whare t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003E[I acknowledge you, Mr Assistant Speaker of the House, and greet you all throughout the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003EI am pleased to take a call in support of the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill. This bill is an omnibus bill that amends the Maori Purposes Act 1991 and the Maori Trust Boards (Transitional Provisions) Order 2012. These amendments are important, particularly in regard to the changes of the W\u012B Pere Trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003ETo understand what this bill is about, we need to go back to 1899 and the establishment of the W\u012B Pere Trust. W\u012Bremu Pere, or W\u012B Pere, was the MP for Eastern Maori for five terms in the late 1800s and early 1900s. He was widely acclaimed as being one of the great M\u0101ori MPs and was a leading figure amongst the people of the Poverty Bay area. Pere had a reputation as a great orator in Te Reo M\u0101ori, both before the Native Land Court and, later, in the House of Representatives. Although he lost three elections, it would be hard for history to judge him too harshly as his election losses were only to the great M\u0101ori MPs in Sir Apirana Ngata and Sir James Carroll. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003EPart-way through his time in Parliament, W\u012B Pere was forced to set up the W\u012B Pere Trust to ensure a legacy was left to his descendants. The trust has long been incorporated in legislation, becoming a statutory trust under the Maori Purposes Act 1938. Although the trust has these legislative protections, it does operate as a private business in a commercial environment, and, in fact, it operates quite successfully. The trust has business activities in the agribusiness sector\u2014the citrus fruit sector, vineyards\u2014and I understand it is looking at possible mining activities in the future. I am not sure of the latest figures\u2014well, I am now, actually, because I heard the Minister quote one\u2014but it is interesting that in 2003 the trust assets were in excess of $35 million, and now, with a new figure in 2013, it is $66 million. So, obviously, it is a trust that is doing very, very well in this economic climate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003EThe payments to beneficiaries include a per share beneficial interest, age grants for those over 60, tangi grants, and limited education scholarships. The trust also contributes to the maintenance of Rongopai Marae at Waituhi, which was established by W\u012B Pere\u2019s son Moanaroa. These changes to the governing legislation will put the trust in a better position to operate more effectively in the commercial environment of today and without the Crown\u2019s involvement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003EThe Minister has already talked about the various changes, so I do not intend to go into the proposed changes in detail. However, I do look forward to the bill coming through the various stages of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee process. I would just like to acknowledge my colleagues on our committee because you have raised some very, very interesting points, particularly when we talk about wh\u0101ngai and also about he tikanga tuku iho n\u0101 ng\u0101 matua t\u012Bpuna kua wehe atu ki Te P\u014D\u2014and it is the tikanga that has been laid down by those of our t\u012Bpuna who have passed into the long night. So it will be a very interesting discussion, I am sure, but we will find our way through, as we usually do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003EBut one thing for me is that W\u012B Pere was a visionary right back in 1899, and so what he actually left and what he put together was a structure in which he believed that only the best people should be trustees, and the beneficiaries need to be separated and apart. It is interesting when we talk about incorporations and when we talk about trusts in today\u2019s world, I think of the Mawhera Inc. on Te Tai Poutini and I think about the Rakaia Inc. as well, where they still have those very strict laws about wh\u0101ngai and about bloodlines actually inheriting those shareholdings. So we are looking forward to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003EBut I think the key message of this bill is that we want to see the W\u012B Pere Trust operating in an autonomous way, free of some of the constraints that it currently has. We do not see any need for ongoing ministerial involvement in the trust\u2019s affairs, I believe, and this bill will maintain the key protections\u2014because that is what is important, as well\u2014for M\u0101ori land that currently exist. But it will give the trust the flexibility and autonomy that it should have to operate as a successful commercial entity. I have no hesitation in commending this bill to the House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002227c6b410e0834fb1aa8cf5f5c6b2c83c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227c6b410e0834fb1aa8cf5f5c6b2c83c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I invite the next member to speak, I have been looking at Speakers\u2019 rulings with regard to visual aids. I understand the question of the display of the New Zealand flag in the Chamber has been the subject of some discussion at the Business Committee, but what is also clear is that other visual aids should be displayed only by members who are making speeches or asking questions. There are some other visual aids currently being displayed in the House, and before I call Metiria Turei, can I ask that they may be removed. It may be that staff have to remove the one from Mr Seymour\u2019s bench. Could I ask some of the floor staff, or the Serjeant-at-Arms, possibly, to or\u2014Marama Fox, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022a09cc6d7e4a143dc993ad8795f1246ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a09cc6d7e4a143dc993ad8795f1246ca\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I do not intend to speak for long on this bill. It is not particularly complicated or particularly controversial, so far at least, but when we get to the select committee\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acdcd5e559e743429b955f46694ea375\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Sorry, I did not make myself clear. I think there had been previous discussion about the New Zealand flag at the Business Committee and, although not all of us would agree with the conclusion the committee came to, I think that those flags have been displayed for some time and I have not made a ruling as to the New Zealand flags. Thank you. Metiria Turei\u2014time starting again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efcaccc89fbd4cf5acfcba3bfba73e72\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. But there will be issues that will come to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, and I look forward to hearing the submissions from those who are involved, particularly the beneficiaries, and I will be particularly looking at two of the questions that have been raised by other members on that committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EOne is the corporatisation of the trust and the extent to which the purpose of the trust moves from managing the assets in the best interests of the beneficiaries to a much more corporatised model, where the changes will allow for a whole different approach to the management of that asset. I do not think that is a small change; I think that is quite a significant one. It may well be supported by the trustees and possibly by most of the beneficiaries\u2014we are yet to find out. But that will be one of the questions that I will be looking for advice on from submitters\u2014about whether that new kind of structure will be in the best interests of everyone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis is an old wh\u0101nau trust. It has been running for a long, long time, and anybody who has been involved with M\u0101ori land will know how difficult it is to manage the assets that a trust like this might have\u2014and there are hundreds of them around the country\u2014to be able to maximise the opportunities that those assets have while retaining the land in M\u0101ori ownership and protecting it from sale, because, of course, that is always the risk. It is why these kinds of structures are set up. So the corporatisation of the trust is a concern, and we will be looking for more information about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ERelated to that is the change in the status of land under the trust. As I understand it, M\u0101ori freehold land will become general land as a result of this legislation. On the one hand, you could argue that that makes that land more usable in a commercial sense, but it also makes it much more vulnerable to being lost to that wh\u0101nau in the short and long term. And it is not necessarily even because of the decisions of the trust and the beneficiaries and the trustees, but potentially, for example, through compulsory acquisition. We have seen examples in New Zealand in very recent times, and very close to here, of M\u0101ori land that has been taken or attempted to be taken through the Public Works Act compulsory acquisition process and the fight that iwi have had to try to retain some of that land. And that is land that is in their ownership; we are not talking about other examples like we see in Auckland where wh\u0101nau land is being rezoned for housing against their will. That land is technically owned by an agency but actually M\u0101ori land, owned by M\u0101ori, which is subject to the Public Works Act and can be taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI would just note that Green MP Catherine Delahunty does have a bill in the ballot, the Public Works (Prohibition of Compulsory Acquisition of M\u0101ori Land) Amendment Bill, and it is designed to protect M\u0101ori land from being taken under the Public Works Act without consent. Just as an example, should this bill pass with the current provisions that transfer M\u0101ori freehold land into general land, that land is then available to be taken without the consent of the owners under the Public Works Act. If perchance Catherine Delahunty\u2019s bill was pulled from the ballot and was passed, that legislation would protect the M\u0101ori freehold land but it would not protect the general land. So there are real consequences and there are real issues around the protection of M\u0101ori land, and we see continued threats to M\u0101ori land, for example through the Public Works Act compulsory acquisition process. The Green Party has proposed a solution to that so it is just not possible to take M\u0101ori land in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EBut if M\u0101ori land becomes general land, it becomes much more vulnerable. I am looking to hear from the beneficiaries and the trustees about their intentions, how they expect to protect that land, what the beneficiaries are hoping to see from that change in status, and what protections they think are necessary to make sure that there is always wh\u0101nau land being held by this trust, that it will not be wasted, that there will not be too many mistakes being made about its management\u2014and this happens; it is just the nature of business\u2014and that the effects of the corporate model on this trust will not, in time, disenfranchise this wh\u0101nau from the land that they have been caring for for so long. I will say that I am always pleased to see legislation that removes Crown control over M\u0101ori resources, and this bill does that to at least some degree. That is a good thing, so I am looking forward to talking about that more too with the trustees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe are happy to support this bill to select committee, and I expect that if we hear good support from the trustees and, particularly, the beneficiaries about these provisions\u2014it might be that there is a little bit of negotiation or change to the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231c9f51dcba14aafa08e6b9cae16e186\u0022\u003EMeka Whaitiri\u003C/span\u003E: Bet you you won\u2019t. Bet you there won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ddec6bf874943be92aa6233e9d7a2be\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, my colleague says: \u201CBet you there won\u2019t.\u201D That is probably true, too. Often these things are faits accomplis by the time they come to us. But assuming that the beneficiaries, in particular, are comfortable with the provisions and with the protections in the bill, I cannot see why we would not support it through to the second and third readings. At the moment the Green Party certainly commits itself to supporting it to the select committee so that we can have the conversation about whether this is the right approach. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u00222e9cf529b5cc4f97a5e006bb9da58a96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e9cf529b5cc4f97a5e006bb9da58a96\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker, \u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 hoki t\u0101tou e noho nei i roto i te Whare i te w\u0101 nei. He t\u016B w\u0101hi poto t\u0113nei ki te mihi atu ki a koutou o te hau k\u0101inga e m\u0101takitaki mai, e \u2018hakarongo hoki mai ana ki \u0113nei k\u014Drero i puta atu nei i te Whare i te ahiahi nei. Tua atu i t\u0113n\u0101, hiahia ana au kia mihi atu ki tetahi o waku whaea, a Phoebe Matiu, m\u014Dhio ana au ki tana kaha ki te m\u0101takitaki i ng\u0101 mahi o te Whare nei, n\u0101 reira, ka nui taku mihi ki a ia m\u014D t\u0113r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker, and greetings to us seated here in the House at this time. This is a short call to accord a tribute to those of you back home watching and listening as well, to these contributions emerging from within the House this afternoon. Further to that, I want to shout out to one of my aunties, Phoebe Matiu. I know how staunch she is at watching the proceedings of this House, and so I really appreciate her greatly for that.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI stand on behalf of New Zealand First to say that although we support much of the intention of this bill we do have some concerns, and some of those concerns have already been articulated by members who have spoken before me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI want to just touch on a bit of history. Although I acknowledge the standing and the mana of W\u012Bremu Pere, himself a former member of this House, I think that we would be remiss in not articulating the original reason for the trust. Due to his benevolence, he found himself in some financial difficulty, so that gave rise to the establishment of the trust, because some money was owed to the Bank of New Zealand. It was the bank at the time that determined who should be the trustee and what its requirements were in accepting the trust, so I just wanted to have that included in the discussion this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EWe have heard how, in 2003, this trust had assets totalling $36 million, and there has been the suggestion that it now has assets around $60 million. I ask the question: why are we changing the legislation for an entity that, quite clearly, is very successful?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eae85797fbb34251ace4b22abf7c4c81\u0022\u003EMeka Whaitiri\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s broken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022473f5f789f5e4cb5b1e51cfb5fbb7e38\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE\u003C/span\u003E: That is the question: what is broken? I have some thoughts, but I will keep those for the select committee process, because we will certainly be supporting this legislation to the select committee. The Minister of Justice, Minister Finlayson, made reference to adoption\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6779b5ff397490392b9ae127f6d4f1e\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Attorney-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a99d80bff5a47e881a8f9d90285ed70\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the Attorney-General. He made reference to adoption and the intent of this legislation to recognise as beneficiaries only those who whakapapa to their tupuna. I want to ask a question. In terms of the M\u0101ori view\u2014wh\u0101ngai is very much of the M\u0101ori world view. My question is: what of those particular wh\u0101ngai, who have since passed on, who at the time became beneficiaries? Their issue would be entitled, and I would suggest that for some of those wh\u0101ngai who fall into that category\u2014who have since passed on\u2014their issue will now be beneficiaries of the trust. In terms of the intent of the bill and the intent of the trust itself, I am asking: what of those beneficiaries? Perhaps we will get some clarification during the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThe notion of replacing the trustees with an incorporated trust board quite clearly is an indication that the trust wants to adopt a more corporate approach to its dealings, and, in spite of its concern about the overview that the Minister and the M\u0101ori Land Court have over their land assets, it has still managed to do very well. I want to ask the question, during the select committee process, whether the Minister has ever been asked to intervene in the running of this trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThe other issue for me is grants. The previous speaker articulated the many grants that the trust presently makes available. I have some concerns as to whether or not those grants and the level of those grants will continue, because when you move into the corporate world you need financial resources, and one of the major sources is to just turn off the grants tap and make that available to whatever corporate decision you want to make. So I will certainly be asking that question in the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EOne concern that I have is, who then takes responsibility if things should go belly up as a consequence of this bill being passed? I suppose we have to go to the High Court. Talking about the court and, in particular, the M\u0101ori Land Court, part of the intent of the bill is to allow the trust to administer its own beneficiary registration. At the moment, that work is done by the M\u0101ori Land Court. I would suggest that the trust would probably not know the whereabouts of a number of its beneficiaries, or its beneficiaries have not been succeeded to because people have not made the succession, whereas with the M\u0101ori Land Court there is a drive to encourage beneficiaries to make succession and therefore keep the ownership list up to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EWe heard about the current trustees consulting with the beneficiaries in 2009, and having a subsequent meeting in 2013 where a draft constitution and an overview of proposed amendments to the Maori Purposes Act were circulated. In November 2013, 143 beneficiaries took part in making the decision as to whether or not this proposal should be adopted, and although we talk about 91 percent of those 143 giving approval, if we look at it in the context of having around 460 beneficiaries in total, then the overall approval rate is not that high. However, this seems to be the process that this Government is adopting, particularly around Treaty settlements, and so we should not be surprised that that return has been accepted and therefore forms the basis of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EOverall, the bill is well intended but I fear for the beneficiaries\u2014in particular, the question of who might be appointed as trustees\u2014because all you need is one or two rogue trustees and the whole asset base of the trust could be lost. Having said that, I, on behalf of New Zealand First, will certainly be supporting the bill going to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc59447cf9a94ae1bae845362eb04cf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc59447cf9a94ae1bae845362eb04cf7\u0022\u003EMARAMA FOX (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E There is such a lack of faith in our people to be able to govern themselves\u2014is that not what we are fighting for? Is that not why we come to this place? And, in fact, is that not why W\u012Bremu Pere came to this place? You know, W\u012Bremu Pere from Te Aitanga-a-M\u0101haki and Rongowhakaata was described as being a mediator, as a person who was called upon to share his knowledge to settle disputes. He was schooled\u2014yes, in an Anglican mission\u2014but he was also schooled in the whare w\u0101nanga. He was schooled in the traditions of his ancestors and he was called on to settle disputes not just between his own people but between M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 as well. You know, he used his position to criticise the Government, he used his position to oppose land sales, and he used his position to set up a trust\u2014a trust that started with 18,000 sheep. We have heard already that this is a very successful trust\u2014a trust that has considerable assets and a trust that has managed to exert its rangatiratanga over its land for a long period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022\u003ESo why are we questioning its ability to continue to do that, and why are we questioning its desire to make these changes? These changes have been put through because it has asked for them\u201491 percent of the beneficiaries who are mentioned here have agreed to this. The Minister would not be doing something in complete opposition to the will of the people. The people have asked for this to happen and therefore the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill has been prepared. We can debate back and forward the intricacies of it but, essentially, we are doing this to support their aspirations, their tino rangatiratanga, and their desire to advance their asset holdings and to do more with the land that they still have\u2014and they have that land because W\u012Bremu Pere was visionary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022\u003EW\u012Bremu Pere did put aside that land, and while he was a parliamentarian he actually wanted to ensure that there was money given from the Parliament to help M\u0101ori people develop their lands and their holdings and their assets, and to become strong entrepreneurs. He put bills forward. He supported Hone Heke\u2019s bill to boycott the Native Land Court\u2014it had too much power. He was bold and he was courageous and he did this on behalf of his people, and now they are the beneficiaries of his vision. Now, after all these years\u2014more than 100 years of having run their assets as a trust\u2014they have asked for this to happen. They have learnt over that time; they are capable people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022\u003EI find it a little bit disrespectful that actually we are questioning their ability to do this by saying that it takes only one rogue trustee\u2014one rogue trustee. Well, these people have been operating well for a good long time and have proven their worth in developing the assets to a considerable base, as we have already talked about. There are some things in the bill that make people nervous because we do, as they have said, want to continue to keep the land in perpetuity\u2014for all time\u2014for the beneficiaries of not just these ones now but for their descendants, just as W\u012Bremu Pere wanted to do when he first established this trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022\u003EI think the bill has been considered with the people. The changes have been put forward by them. The Minister has upheld their right to do so and has brought that bill to the House. I stand to support that bill. I do not have to keep going on about the things that are in here; everybody has talked about it. The Minister has completely articulated the changes that the Government wants to make, and, yes, we can debate the intricacies of it at the select committee. But, essentially, we stand not just to support this bill but to support the people and their ability to be self-determining about the way in which they want to operate their lands and their holdings, and so I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022 data-id=\u00223ab5ee0b847b4711b4587572d5ed3a69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ab5ee0b847b4711b4587572d5ed3a69\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker, e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Actually, it is a privilege to join my colleagues to contribute to the debate that seeks through the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill to create a new piece of legislation called the M\u0101ori Purposes (Wi Pere Trust) Act 1991.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI think it begs the question who W\u012B Pere was. Many have spoken about W\u012Bremu Pere this afternoon, who was Te Aitangi-a-M\u0101haki, Te Wh\u0101nau a Kai, and Rongowhakaata, and born in 1837 in T\u016Branga. He was the MP for Eastern M\u0101ori between 1893 and 1905, and Sir Apirana Ngata said of him: \u201CNo man had ever done more for his people.\u201D So he was obviously a person who was visionary, and, as my colleague Meka Whaitiri has just pointed out to me, he was also incredibly entrepreneurial. In fact, he would have probably been a large property developer in today\u2019s times because he accumulated land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EActually, this bill is about land and it is incredibly ironic for me that this bill is talking about the alienation of M\u0101ori land, within the context of Dame Whina Cooper leading a h\u012Bkoi from Te H\u0101pua to us here in Wellington 40 years ago\u20141,100 kilometres. This would have been day 2 of the h\u012Bkoi, and the whole kaupapa of Dame Whina\u2019s h\u012Bkoi was \u201Cnot one more acre of M\u0101ori land\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003ESo the point I want to make, primarily, is that changing the classification of M\u0101ori freehold land to general freehold land actually has huge implications. M\u0101ori freehold land, by virtue of it being M\u0101ori freehold, is within Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993. And what was that designed to do? It was designed to protect M\u0101ori land. The preamble of Te Ture Whenua Maori Act says that it recognises that land is taonga tuku iho and it has a special significance to M\u0101ori people, and it also highlights that the retention of lands in the hands of owners\u2019 wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B is of utmost importance and significance. So I think the implication of this piece of legislation is huge. What it does is that it transfers the status of that land to a commodity that is easily bought and sold. There are not a lot of protections around it, and, actually, if the trust got into trouble because it expanded, then the banks could take the land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EThat is the other irony of this piece of legislation, because the fact that it is in trust in the first place can actually be traced back to 1899, because W\u012B Pere got into a bit of trouble. The Bank of New Zealand actually had a mortgage over the land and the fact that it was put into a trust was in lieu of the land being taken. He and the other beneficiaries were given time to repay the mortgage. It took them 6 years. So in 1905 W\u012B Pere had paid \u00A347,000\u2014which in today\u2019s money is $4,510,000\u2014to reclaim his land. That is what W\u012B Pere did at that time. They kept that land in a trust, so in 1906 we had the establishment of the W\u012B Pere Estates Act and he was the sole trustee. Progressively, over time, we have had different trustees who have been wh\u0101nau of W\u012B Pere. Then there was an amendment in 1991 and that amendment Act empowered five trustees, who had a 3-year tenure. To be a beneficiary you had to be related by blood to W\u012B Pere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003ESo we come to the discussions today about the amendment to this piece of legislation that I think contains something within it that we must be incredibly wary of\u2014more than wary, actually. We have to be vigilant and we have to continue the legacy, I believe, of Dame Whina Cooper and the 50 people, including people like Deirdre Nehua, whom I saw on Sunday. I was privileged; I was one of a few people who were invited by Hinerangi Puru and Joe Cooper\u2014the children of Dame Whina Cooper\u2014to attend the 40th anniversary of the Land March at Te \u016Anga Waka Marae. So for me to attend that particular hui and to be part of that commemoration was incredibly special.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI think what bills like this highlight is actually ka whawhai tonu m\u0101tou\u2014struggle without end\u2014which is just what T\u0101 Ranginui Walker said. Our struggles will never be over. Our struggles to retain\u2014and I am talking about ours in terms of our mana whenua, our tangata whenua, our wh\u0101nau, our hap\u016B, our iwi. Actually, we have to be ever watchful of pieces of legislation such as this that actually have the potential to take more than one more acre of land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI want to commend Nuk Korako for actually acknowledging that there are challenges about this piece of legislation that the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee is going to have to deliberate on. I want to acknowledge the members of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee because I think one of the things that can be amended, for example, is that the lands that are currently within the holdings of the trust should remain M\u0101ori freehold land, but if they want to get into commercial development and purchase other lands, then that land can be general freehold land. But the reserve of land that they currently have, there should not be any ability to change it from M\u0101ori freehold to general freehold, which would protect the legacy of W\u012Bremu Pere that we have all talked about today. The fact that he established the trust was to keep the land for ever\u2014for ever\u2014for his tamariki, the mokopuna, the uri of W\u012B Pere. So I think what we could say, though, is that there will be a distinction between land that the trust has an ability to purchase once this legislation goes through the House\u2014and that can be general freehold land and they can do whatever they like with that, but they need to safeguard the land that they have for future generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI want to say to my colleagues \u201Ckia kaha\u201D. I think that this piece of legislation is going to challenge you in many ways, but what I am hoping is that through the process of the select committee we can actually hear from all the wh\u0101nau and make sure that the mandate of 91 percent is actually real, and we will know, once submissions are open, whether or not this bill has the widespread support of the wh\u0101nau. Inherent in this is maintaining the legacy of W\u012B Pere, his vision for the future, the fact that he must have been committed to passing the land on to his direct descendants because of the blood requirement. So we need to help protect and safeguard this piece of whenua, the whenua within the W\u012B Pere Trust, forevermore. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022 data-id=\u00228da40f3e32f947c2987e8aaf7d59e1b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228da40f3e32f947c2987e8aaf7d59e1b6\u0022\u003EJOANNE HAYES (National):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. I am pleased to stand to take a very short call to support the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill, which is in the name of the Hon Te Ururoa Flavell, the Minister for M\u0101ori Development, in its first reading today. It is always difficult when you are the third-to-last speaker in the House on a bill. Much of what has been said about the W\u012B Pere Trust has been articulated right throughout this House on this day. There are many views about it. As a member of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee I look forward to the bill coming to the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EW\u012B Pere was a very good leader. He was a very staunch supporter, as we have heard, of M\u0101ori land, and especially that land around the East Coast. Yes, he did have some trouble with the mortgage and that, and the Bank of New Zealand did take a mortgage out over the lands, but he did pay it back, and I think that was the test of the man. He was a leader who walked the talk, back in those days. He talked it and he walked it, and I think that he leaves a very good legacy behind him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EI am going to end my contribution there because, as I said, I look forward to the select committee process. I look forward to hearing the k\u014Drero from the wh\u0101nau of the W\u012B Pere Trust. I totally support the bill and commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022544bdfcf858e427dadc10ac4894a4972\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022544bdfcf858e427dadc10ac4894a4972\u0022\u003EADRIAN RURAWHE (Labour\u2014Te Tai Hau\u0101uru):\u003C/span\u003E \u0100, t\u0113na koe, Mr Assistant Speaker, otir\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa i t\u0113nei r\u0101 whakahirahira. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker, but at the same time acknowledgments to us all on this wonderful day.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EI stand with my colleagues in support of this bill. This is not about us making it difficult or about us not trusting our people; we do trust our people. Our position on this bill is to make it the best legislation it can possibly be. In saying that, I too want to talk about the status of land. We are talking, in this instance, about it being general freehold land at the time that the principal Act, the Maori Purposes Act, was passed into law, which was then transferred and made M\u0101ori freehold land. This particular bill changes that and gives the opportunity for those particular lands that were once general freehold land but were transferred under the principal Act to become M\u0101ori freehold land to now, under this bill, become general freehold land again. What I would ask the House and the select committee to consider is what the original intent of the principal Act was in making that determination of changing the status from general freehold land to M\u0101ori freehold land. I would suggest that the intent was to protect the land from alienation. We see a number of settlement bills come through this House that address that very issue\u2014the issue of alienation of M\u0101ori freehold land. I encourage the select committee to take a very close look at that particular issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EI also want to talk about the governance aspects of this bill. The changes, to me, look like they will give a lot more scope for the governance of these lands\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0fc6d6414d643d79f6de20fb41e4f30\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise for interrupting the member but it is kai time. I will resume the Chair at 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215eb1f1fdb47459ea57ecd2a215791e8\u0022\u003EADRIAN RURAWHE\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. Before the dinner break I was speaking about the governance arrangements for the W\u012B Pere Trust. The thing that I really like about these kinds of bills is that it does give the trustees and the beneficial owners greater autonomy in their governance arrangements. Can I quote from the departmental disclosure statement where it says \u201CThese changes include reducing the role of the Crown,\u201D, which is, I think, always a good thing. It gives a lot more responsibility to the trustees themselves. That is something that I agree with. It also increases direct accountability to beneficiaries, which I also agree with. I think it is really important that the beneficiaries know what the trustees are doing, so having a new constitution for the trust is a very good idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EI did hear the Minister for M\u0101ori Development in his contribution refer to the consultation that had taken place between the Crown and the beneficial owners. There was a vote for the change to support the changes that are included in this bill. Of those who participated, 91 percent supported the changes. I just want to highlight that only 31 percent of the beneficiaries representing 57 percent of the beneficial interests actually participated in this process. Out of those 143 beneficiaries, by my calculations, 99 did not participate in this. I think it is important that that fact is highlighted and that there is an opportunity through the select committee process for these beneficial owners to make a contribution to this bill, and a contribution that, hopefully, addresses some of the issues that have been raised through this first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EI think another good thing about this bill is the register of beneficial interests. I think it is important also that the trust runs its own register. It is part of what we would call rangatiratanga. So from a M\u0101ori world view it is about taking care of our own interests. I think that having this in there as well is a very good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EI go back to the status of the lands. I mentioned earlier about changing the status of lands that were once general freehold land under the principal Act to M\u0101ori freehold land, and then under this change they will return to general land. I want to talk further about that, having thought about it a little bit more over the dinner break. There are both positives and negatives to this. I highlighted the negative side of it being that this land could now potentially\u2014turning it back to general freehold land\u2014be alienated. On the other hand, it does give the trust the opportunity to invest and to purchase other lands, whether it be farmland or any other properties, and for the specific purpose of being an investment property. As we all know, the true benefits of an investment property are realised when it is sold. In selling that it would give the trust more opportunities to invest further, whether it be in property, other properties, or other kinds of investment. I thought that in fairness to my first comments about the concern I have about alienation of land I would balance that with the acknowledgement that there are situations in the future for this trust where they may be able to purchase land specifically for the purpose of economic development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EI think that is all I have to contribute to this debate on the first reading. I look forward to the bill going to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. I do not sit on that committee but I am certain that it will do a really good job. I look forward to the report back when it comes back to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EBill referred to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002212c789d225d6481e9580d8c8ad4c7a97\u0022\u003EChild Protection (Child Sex Offender Register) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ddfaa28b4e64604a165772490d6a417\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d022d0ff098249adbb90d409ea719030\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d022d0ff098249adbb90d409ea719030\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Register) Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Social Services Committee to consider the bill. This bill will enable the establishment of a child sex offender register through the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Register) Act. Child sexual abuse is a serious problem in New Zealand. It causes significant and long-lasting harm to children in our community and to their families. In 2014 alone, 451 offenders were convicted of a child sex offence, and of those, 307 were sentenced to imprisonment. Also in 2014, 294 child sex offenders were released from prison back into the community. The majority of these offenders will have no ongoing contact with justice-sector agencies after they complete their sentence or orders even though their risk of reoffending may be high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThis Government has gone a long way already towards addressing the risks presented by high-risk sexual and violent offenders with the introduction of public protection orders and the enhancement of extended supervision orders in 2014. The Government is currently working on addressing the risks around overseas offenders who are deported back to New Zealand, of which child sex offenders are a subset. The establishment of a child sex offender register will further enhance the safety of our children by ensuring that the appropriate agencies have the information that they need about registered child sex offenders who are living in the community, particularly when they are no longer subject to oversight by the Department of Corrections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe bill will enable Police and Corrections to establish a child sex offender register for offenders aged 18 years or older who are convicted of a qualifying offence against a child under the age of 16 years and who are sentenced to a term of imprisonment or a non-custodial sentence and are directed to be registered at the discretion of the sentencing judge, or who are convicted of an offence overseas that is equivalent to a qualifying offence in New Zealand. The bill applies to persons convicted after the Act comes into force. It also applies retrospectively to those serving a sentence of imprisonment, including when they are on parole or release conditions or are subject to an extended supervision order for a qualifying offence on the date the Act comes into force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe bill imposes reporting requirements on registered offenders. They must report to police and provide a range of personal information within 72 hours of their release from prison, their being made subject to a registration order at the direction of a judge, or on their arrival in New Zealand. This information includes any aliases, all the addresses at which they may reside, their workplaces, club memberships, car registrations, any distinguishing marks, email addresses, details of computer internet service providers used, and passport details. They must report annually to confirm their information and to provide a photograph and fingerprints if required. Finally, they must report within 72 hours of any changes to their personal information, and at least 48 hours prior to any travel, either within New Zealand or overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EDuration on the register for offenders is based on the class of the qualifying offence contained in the schedule to the bill and the sentence received. If a registered offender is sentenced to imprisonment, they will remain on the register for life for a class 1 offence, 15 years for a class 2 offence, and 8 years for a class 3 offence. If a registered offender is sentenced to a non-custodial sentence, they will be registered for a period of 8 years, regardless of the class of qualifying offence committed. This reflects the lesser non-custodial penalty imposed by the judge. The bill establishes offences for failing to report or provide the required information, with a penalty of imprisonment for up to 1 year and a fine of $2,000, and a penalty of imprisonment for up to 2 years and a fine of up to $4,000 for providing false or misleading information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe bill has provisions for information sharing between specified agencies\u2014Police, Corrections, the Ministry of Social Development, and Housing New Zealand Corporation\u2014and between Police, Corrections, and a third party when it is deemed necessary in order to protect a child or children at risk; for example, to a parent of a child or children who has a new partner who is a registered child sex offender, that will be the Commissioner of Police and agencies administering corresponding registers overseas, such as Australia and the UK. Information in the register will not be publicly available. This is to ensure that we have one complete register of all offenders, including those who have name suppression. Outside of information sharing among specified agencies, there is limited provision for information to be disclosed to third parties. In situations where there is reasonable grounds to believe that a registered offender poses a threat to the safety of any children, information in the register may be provided to a parent, guardian, teacher, or caregiver of the child, but it will be an offence for anyone to make any unauthorised disclosure of information in the register, with a penalty of 6 months\u2019 imprisonment and a fine of up to $25,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EI note that the Attorney-General has tabled a report on this bill pursuant to section 7 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990. The Attorney-General\u2019s report has concluded that the bill is inconsistent with section 9 of the Act and section 26(2), and that this cannot be justified under section 5. Respectfully, I have slightly different views on those. The inconsistency with section 9 is based principally on there being no possibility for a review, at least of the lifetime reporting obligations of those who have been sentenced to imprisonment for a class 1 offence. This was an issue that was considered at length during the policy development stage, and the difficulty is how any reviewing authority can conclude that a fit and healthy person on the register who has committed a class 1 offence has ceased to be a risk to children. A reasonably long period of apparent non-offending will not necessarily mean that the risk of reoffending is sufficiently reduced to justify removing the person from the register.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThere are no restrictions placed on where an individual can live or work, whom they can live or associate with, or when and where they can travel, including overseas. They are obliged only to report any changes in these circumstances. The bill is based on the premise that the rights of the child justify the imposition of obligations on these registered offenders and that there is a rational and proportionate connection between the objectives of the legislation and the means used to achieve them. The inconsistency with section 26(2), \u201Cdouble jeopardy\u201D, is based on the retrospective application of the bill to those serving a sentence of imprisonment or who are subject to an extended supervision order for a qualifying offence when the bill comes into force. The limited retrospective nature is considered necessary in order to remove the not inconsiderable immediate risk presented by already sentenced child sex offenders moving into the community after the Act comes into force and not being subject to the bill\u2019s reporting requirements. There are likely to be about 470 offenders to whom these provisions will initially apply. The section 7 report acknowledges that the retrospective provisions would help with addressing the risk, but it considers them to be more than is reasonably necessary. As stated above, I do not consider these reporting obligations to be excessive when balanced against the rights of children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EIn summary, we know that child sex offending is a significant problem in New Zealand and that the harm caused to our children is substantial and long term. We also know that the monitoring of child sex offenders in the community is limited by the current legislation, which does not allow for the collection and sharing of information about child sex offenders in the community by relevant agencies. The Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Register) Bill provides a strong statutory basis for addressing these issues and for enhancing the sexual safety of the most vulnerable members of the community: our children. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00228e5326b5f89642149dc542c1354c5e2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e5326b5f89642149dc542c1354c5e2c\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to rise on behalf of Labour and to make a contribution to this first reading debate. First, I just want to query with the Minister for Social Development her decision to refer the bill to the Social Services Committee. I would have thought that the rationale behind sending it to either the Law and Order Committee or the Justice and Electoral Committee would probably be a much more useful decision, particularly given that the likes of those two committees have dealt with things like extended supervision orders and other issues that can be quite confronting to Bill of Rights issues and that need to be properly weighed up, and given that those are the select committees that have had to deal with those issues. I am sure that the Social Services Committee will do a fine job, but it just seems wrongly placed, because, at the end of the day, these are criminal justice decisions that are being made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EOf course there will be absolute consensus across this House around the need to protect the most vulnerable citizens in New Zealand, and children are amongst those citizens. We always welcome and are willing to support initiatives that are well placed to do that. For instance, even when the Vulnerable Children Bill came up, we took the opportunity to highlight those areas where we thought that there were useful mechanisms in place for children. Of course, that does not remove our ability to critique when we think that there is an absence of those ideas, but I want to raise the point that in arguing and debating for bills like this, we are actually already missing some very simple opportunities to put in place those protections. For instance, it is all well and good for us to be debating this child sex offenders register, but what about the fact that in the Vulnerable Children Act we have a requirement now on NGOs and on anyone who is working with children on the front line for them to take up the role of making sure that they check their workforce and that they ensure that they are properly able to work with children. So carrying out police checks will be a part of that. Of course, it does not matter that the Government is now putting in requirements, via a bill that it has before the House at the moment, that they will have to pay for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ESecondly, the Government has also removed the ability of those NGOs to ask Child, Youth and Family Services to do a check on individuals whom they are employing in order to check that they are the right people to be working with children. So, on the one hand, we are saying that we want to create greater checks and balances, but on the other hand, we are removing the ability of NGOs to do that job properly. This seems counterintuitive. So our argument is: let us get the basics right. Carmel Sepuloni\u2019s bill on the registering of social workers is another prime example. If we want to make sure that we are protecting young people, a very simple thing we can do is make sure that we have registration of social workers in New Zealand, and we do not even have that. So, again, let us get back to basics. That does not preclude us being able to do things like this, but let us get the basics right. I look forward to debating that bill tomorrow, hopefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ETo come to the detail of some of this bill, Labour is supporting it going to the select committee, so that we can look at some of the issues that we have a few concerns about and also some of the issues that, obviously, we would support. In the explanatory note, in the general policy statement for this bill, it says upfront that \u201CThe commission of sexual offences against children is a serious problem \u2026 it causes significant and long-lasting harm \u2026\u201D\u2014no question there\u2014\u201CInformation sharing between relevant agencies is recognised as an effective way to minimise the risk of harm from reoffending by known child sex offenders,\u201D. We must also add, however, that the research and evidence definitely suggests that the ability to rehabilitate these individuals is undermined if ever these registries become public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThat is a really important point for us to keep in mind, because as much as there is public pressure for opening up information like this, it actually undermines our ability to keep young people safe. That seems counterintuitive. The easy political thing to do is to say: \u201CLet\u2019s just put all that detail out there.\u201D That actually makes it harder to safely reintegrate someone and to ensure that we rehabilitate them properly so they never offend again. There is research and evidence around that fact, and we cannot and should not play politics around that if that is, in fact, the right thing to do in terms of trying to keep people safe in the long run. So, yes, keeping a register absolutely has benefits, but that register must be kept within the Government departments, which can make sure that they use that information appropriately and in the best interests of children and their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note then goes on to say that the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Register) Bill requires all child sex offenders to register if they were aged over 18 years when the offence was committed and were convicted of a qualifying offence. I think it is up to the select committee to make sure that that list of qualifying offences is the appropriate list. I have had a quick look through it; a lot of it seems to make sense. The one issue that I am genuinely unsure of, but that I would like to test at the select committee, is that we do have to be careful with some of the historical offences on our statutes\u2014for example, people who currently hold convictions from pre - homosexual law reform\u2014which are not actually the kinds of convictions that we want to be captured in a bill like this. I think that is just one of those tricky legislative questions that we need to ask at the select committee so that we know we are including only the right people in this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe bill also goes on to say that we want to ensure that we can register any offender who is found guilty of a corresponding offence in a foreign jurisdiction. Look\u2014that makes sense. A lot of individuals are being deported back to New Zealand prior to finishing their custodial sentences. Again, I think that what we have to be mindful of here is just the practical implications, actually. It sounds good on paper, but we actually do not even have an information-sharing agreement that has been practically implemented between us and Australia, for instance. I think we are all in agreement that it is a good idea, but as a select committee, if there are blockages to that, we should be talking about it, because it is holding up our ability not just to do this work but also to implement some elements of our extended supervision order legislation. Already we have seen some horrific cases where it was not the intention of the Parliament to have those individuals let off the hook when they came back into New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EOne of the other points that is made is that \u201CAll registered offenders, when residing in the community, will be required to provide a range of personal information to a central register administered by the New Zealand Police. The registered offender must update the information annually, within 72 hours of any change of details, and at least 48 hours prior to travel.\u201D Just one issue there that I would like to see discussed at the select committee is: who, then, is making sure that that residential address is appropriate? We have already seen cases in New Zealand where someone has been released to an address that is actually within very close proximity to victims. In this bill, we have a reporting mechanism, but it does not seem that there is any check in that reporting mechanism to ensure that it is an appropriate residence for that individual. So we need to make sure that we have got that mechanism in place, otherwise it becomes quite redundant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIf, indeed, the people are checking that appropriateness\u2014which you would assume would be probation officers\u2014we have already seen some areas where that process has fallen down. So, again, are we resourcing those individuals to do this job properly? Who will be monitoring, for instance, that people are staying within the residence that they are listing? Will we be privately contracting out that role? We have seen the issues that that can present. How can we make sure that the current poor management that we have seen around monitoring of offenders in the community is done properly? These are all things that make a scheme like this utterly redundant unless we have proper checks and balances in place. So these are all questions that we would ask.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EAlso, I want to add in, because it seems appropriate, that, actually, there is an assumption in this bill that when a sex offender is released into the community, they have got accommodation, they simply need to go and register it, and everything is, therefore, tickety-boo. Part of our problem with reintegration and rehabilitation is the lack of availability of appropriate accommodation in the first place. I have seen scenarios where it has been decided by the Parole Board that an offender is ready for release and is ready to be monitored back in the community, but they have been unable to be released because of a lack of appropriate accommodation. This has to be a part of a proper, well-functioning corrections system to ensure that we have the appropriate kind of accommodation available in the first place. So we are kind of skipping a bit of a step in making that assumption in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe other thing that we would like to see discussed is what the mechanisms to be removed from the register are when, for instance, after a period of 10 years, a person has not reoffended, there have been no issues, and everyone is satisfied with the way the individual has reintegrated. We heard the Minister for Social Development make some vague comment about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228702038f09664afbbf4cf0980fe12964\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to have to interrupt the member, but her time has well expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022e14a3f40b4524238ae799ac14404a926\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e14a3f40b4524238ae799ac14404a926\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E It is important for me to speak in support of the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Register) Bill at its first reading. I would just like to commend the Minister for Social Development, the Hon Anne Tolley, for all the work she does in the space of protecting children and vulnerable children. I would not say, necessarily, that it is a pleasure to rise to speak to a bill around child sex offenders, but I think, as the father of a young daughter\u2014and many people in this room are parents, grandparents, uncles, and aunties\u2014and for people throughout the country, that it is something that we will join together in support of in making this country safer. It is a bill that is focused on offenders who are over 18 who have committed crimes on children who are under 16. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EChild sexual abuse is a crime, and this Government is tough on crime. It is tough on the causes of crime. When we look at crime in New Zealand at the moment, we do have one of our lowest crime rates since the 1970s. I think our Better Public Services target around crime of around 20 percent has already been surpassed, but, as this bill demonstrates, there is always more to do. That is what this Government is committed to and what this Government is focused on doing. Look at the work we are doing around children and vulnerable young children. Look at the release of the State of Care 2015: What we learnt from monitoring Child, Youth and Family report from the Children\u2019s Commissioner and the response of the Minister and the Government in looking at the modernisation and the overhaul of Child, Youth and Family Services, as well as Children\u2019s Teams to work with some of the most vulnerable young children before they go into care, and even things like raising the age of free GP care up to the age of 13.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThis bill is about establishing and creating a register that will collect information\u2014things like names and addresses of child sex offenders. It is also about building a risk-based, multi-agency management framework. I think that if we look at that sentence around the risk base and unpack it for a minute, obviously child sex offenders pose a risk to people in the community, and it is about understanding that risk and thinking through how that might play out in a community. The phrase \u201Cmulti-agency\u201D is about ensuring that all the agencies are working together and are joined up, and that might be the police, the Department of Corrections, and, you could imagine, the Ministry of Social Development and Housing New Zealand, understanding that a child sex offender could be living in a house, under their oversight, with a new partner and children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the regulatory impact statement, it is interesting that when we benchmark ourselves internationally and look at the research and evidence, it is very much a growing field. It is a field that is still developing evidence around the use of a risk register as well as long-term monitoring of child sex offenders. We can look at a piece of research from the UK in 2011. It was around the Multi-Agency Public Protection Arrangements, or MAPPA, which was introduced by the British Government in 2001. What it identified from its research was that there was a reduction in reconviction rates amongst sex offenders between 2001 and 2014. That is when they compared that with a cohort of 1998 to 2000, albeit that the Multi-Agency Public Protection Arrangements was introduced in 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESo what Multi-Agency Public Protection Arrangements evidenced was that through risk-profiling as well as risk management of the offenders, it was able to understand how it could cause a reduction in reoffending. Let us be clear: any reduction in reoffending is beneficial. If you look at some of the regulatory impact statement and the departmental disclosure statement, you see that there are some references around child sex offenders, those who are serving or future ones, having less privacy of personal information through this bill. Depending on the severity of the crime, of course, some people will go on the risk register for 8 years, some child sex offenders for 15 years, and some for life. By being placed on this register there will be less privacy of their personal information, but I think that is tough. At the end of the day, we are putting children first, and that is what we need to do. I think this bill puts children first. I take the comments of the previous speaker, Jacinda Ardern, about public disclosure and how that probably does not do the children any good itself, but I think that collecting this information and having a multi-agency response and monitoring are the right things to do in looking at recidivism and in looking at reoffending to ensure that we are managing right some very high-risk criminals and putting young people safely in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESo when we look at the three types of information sharing that this bill is talking about for child sex offenders when they go on the register, it is about facilitating more personal information, which police and the Department of Corrections can collect and discuss within themselves. It is also about ensuring that additional personal information can be shared with Government agencies, such as the Ministry of Social Development and Housing New Zealand. But it is also about allowing the police and the Department of Corrections, if they feel it is right, to disclose personal and private information to people outside of those Government departments if they feel that a child sex offender is at risk of reoffending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThis bill creates a decision-making power for the courts, and that was clearly stated in the departmental disclosure statement. It has about four categories. If a child sex offender is found guilty of a qualifying offence but is given a non-custodial sentence, a court may make an order for a child sex offender who poses a risk to the lives or sexual safety of a child or children, or other offenders who have received a custodial sentence, and they will automatically be put on this register. But there is also another category, which the previous speaker alluded to, and that is New Zealand nationals who commit these offences overseas and then are deported at the end of their sentence. I know that in my electorate this has occurred recently, and there was fear and concern in the community that there was no oversight of this person who was coming back from another country and reintegrating in a community in New Zealand. So I think this will allay some of that fear for the local community and they will understand that police and the Department of Corrections will have oversight of this child sex offender. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00226f13973a515d49f1bb29c3c9ad7ab862\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f13973a515d49f1bb29c3c9ad7ab862\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour\u2014Kelston):\u003C/span\u003E I am standing to speak to the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Register) Bill. As my colleague Jacinda Ardern pointed out, we will be supporting the bill\u2019s referral to the select committee. We are concerned about the fact that it is coming to the Social Services Committee. I do not mind considering this bill, being on the Social Services Committee, but we do wonder whether or not, because this is a criminal justice issue, the bill should actually be sent to the Justice and Electoral Committee or the Law and Order Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI just want to acknowledge that across the House every single one of us would recognise that this is a major issue. I think it is important to look at a few of the facts that we see in the regulatory impact statement\u2014facts that we should all be concerned about. Child sexual abuse is a serious problem in New Zealand. In 2012-13, 505 offenders were convicted of 1,819 sex offences against children, up by over 20 percent from a decade earlier. We heard earlier from the other side that crime is down, but when we hear those statistics and see that sexual offences against children are up by 20 percent from a decade earlier, then we should be concerned. In 2012-13 the Accident Compensation Corporation had 779 sensitive claims lodged for sexual abuse against children under the age of 16 years. These are just the cases that actually led to a conviction. We know, because of the research, that there are thousands of cases of child sexual abuse out there every year that do not get reported, let alone lead to a conviction. Child victims of sexual abuse are amongst the most vulnerable victims of crime, and the resultant harm is often very serious and long-lasting. These are things that we can agree on in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EMy concern\u2014and I will be asking questions about this when the bill comes before the select committee\u2014is actually around the rehabilitation side in respect of sexual offenders. I am really interested to know\u2014and I will be really interested to know and will be digging down on this\u2014how successful the rehabilitation programmes that we have in place are, particularly the ones that are run in our jails, what the results are, and what the research there is. What do we need to know as parliamentarians about this and what do the public need to know? Where do we need to be investing more funding and more resource in if the rehabilitation programmes that we have in place are not successful? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI was recently quite disturbed by a case in west Auckland where a person was caught by the police in the library sexually offending against a child. Not only was that disturbing but what was particularly disturbing was that that particular person was working in the capacity of a social worker for a social service in west Auckland and had committed a similar crime 25 years earlier. And, yet, that person was still able to work in that position of social worker and was able to reoffend. I am going to go down the track of talking about the need to have a qualified and registered workforce working with our children, as my colleague Jacinda Ardern alluded to before, and I am going to take this opportunity to bring up the fact that a report that recently came out highlighted the need to have a more qualified workforce working with vulnerable children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ETomorrow in the House we have a members\u2019 day, and my bill, the Social Workers Registration (Mandatory Registration) Amendment Bill, will be coming up. It is about moving towards the mandatory registration of social workers. I bring this up because I am reflecting on that particular social worker in west Auckland who sexually offended against a young child in the library and who was working for a social service at the time, in the capacity of a social worker. Unfortunately, all too often the people who are committing these offences are either family members or people in trusted positions. So I think we have a moral obligation as a Parliament to make sure that we are holding to account the people who are in those trusted positions or working with vulnerable children. I am hoping that tomorrow the National Government will consider supporting my member\u2019s bill to make social worker registration mandatory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe are not opposed to certain types of information sharing between departments\u2014in this case, it would be corrections and police\u2014but there are concerns, though, about how information will be shared. Anne Tolley has said that in some cases where there is a significant threat to the safety of children, information from the register may be released to a third party such as the parent or guardian of a child, or a teacher or caregiver responsible for a child. My concern with that is that the National Government\u2019s speakers on the bill have said that, on the one hand, this will not be a public register. The register will not, apparently, be public but will be available to authorised police, corrections staff, and authorised staff from relevant agencies such the Ministry of Social Development and Housing New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThen, though, we have Anne Tolley, the Minister for Social Development, saying that where there is a significant threat to the safety of children, information from the register may be released to a third party such as the parent or guardian of a child, or a teacher or caregiver. I guess that we are just seeking clarification on that, because, actually, if that information is going to the third party, such as the examples that have been given here, then it actually is going public. So, on the one hand, to say that this register will not be public and will be going to only these agencies, and then, on the other, to say that in some circumstances it can go to a third party\u2014including the guardian of a child, or a teacher or caregiver\u2014it then becomes really blurred. Is this a public register or is this not a public register? If it is a public register, then the Government really needs to name it that and be very transparent about that. At the moment I am a little bit concerned that it is a little murky. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI just want to point out the fact that there should be a mechanism for review to be removed from the register if offenders have not offended in a very long time. This has been brought up, but this is something that we will need to discuss at the select committee. There are so many issues digging down on this that we are going to have to have discussions about at the select committee, which does take me back to my concern as to whether this is well-suited with the Social Services Committee or, as my colleague Jacinda Ardern pointed out earlier, whether it would have a better fit with the Justice and Electoral Committee or the Law and Order Committee, given that this really is a criminal justice issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIt is important to manage any risks to children and the community posed by convicted child sex offenders who have come to the end of their sentences or are serving non-custodial sentences. We do accept that this bill will allow for the tracking of convicted child sex offenders in the community, to be used as a tool to try to prevent reoffending. If it does assist with preventing reoffending, then of course we will support this. But we do need to acknowledge that this is not a silver bullet, with regard to the very serious issue that we face as a country with child sex offenders and sex offences committed against children. There is much more that needs to be looked at. This is one possible way in which we can try to mitigate the risk, but it definitely is not the silver bullet to resolving the issues that we have in this country with sexual offences against children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd33296447e64f408bda82d8887c2f96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd33296447e64f408bda82d8887c2f96\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call this evening to support the first reading of the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Register) Bill. Like my colleague Matt Doocey, I would like to acknowledge Minister Tolley for her work in this area and for bringing this bill to the floor of the House, and also the Hon Judith Collins for her previous ministerial roles. I know that she had a particular advocacy for such a register. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThis bill is seeking to strike the right balance between protecting some of our most vulnerable children\u2014who are aged from a few months old through to 15 years old\u2014on the one side, and on the other the rights of those who have committed these crimes and been found guilty for them but are returning back into the community and are, no doubt, wanting a fair life as they do that. In my view, this bill traverses that age-old tension between public safety, on the one hand, and individual rights, on the other. But the bill that we are discussing this evening reflects a clear bias towards keeping our most vulnerable safe. It is anchored in a view that information tightly held that is used to inform risk and associated response is an appropriate framework to protect those who need our protection, but it does, of course, at the margins erode the rights of individuals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThat is a balance I am comfortable with, and, no doubt, during the select committee process we will hear a spectrum of views from those who are across New Zealand on this issue. I am going to listen with interest, and I am sure that most of our select committee members will, to assure myself that we have landed in the right place. I believe, at the moment, that we have. I also think it is right that we as the Social Services Committee reflect on it. This is a whole-of-Government approach, which this Government has brought in to protect and look after our most vulnerable, particularly children. So I am very confident that under the leadership of Alfred Ngaro and the deputy chairmanship of Matt Doocey and others we will have the appropriate discussion and traverse the areas that we need to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ESexual offending against children is a serious problem that causes significant and long-lasting harm. Reported child sexual abuse is increasing. In 2012-13, 505 offenders were convicted of 1,819 sex offences against children, up 20 percent from the previous decade. That, to be honest, is likely to be a lower-than-reality number, because children, of all of our community, are less likely to have come forward in all cases if they have been offended against. What we do know is that victims of child sex offenders are some of our most vulnerable in New Zealand. Their lack of emotional, physical, and intellectual maturity puts them at serious disadvantage to those who are leveraging their often adult status. These adverse effects are significant. They can include chronic depression, low self-esteem, sexual dysfunction, and personality disorders, amongst others\u2014and, I guess more tragically, they often have an increased risk of being an offender themselves, in time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThe key problem that we are seeking to solve with this bill is to close the gaps in Government information collection and information sharing systems that have become evident in reviewing recent incidents relating to reoffending. I think this is a key point that we should bring out in this discussion\u2014that this has occurred. We have seen situations where reoffending has occurred in society, and as we have looked deeply at the causes of that and what the conditions were in the place when that happened, it was the lack of information and the lack of sharing between relevant Government ministries that were contributing factors to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThis bill seeks to establish the child protection offender register, as we have heard this evening. It includes all offenders aged 18 years or older at the time of the offence who have been convicted of a qualifying child sex offence and, of course, were then sentenced to imprisonment. It also enables a judge, if it is a non-custodial sentence, to assess the risk profile of that individual and then also direct them to register on the register as well. It also includes a condition to capture, if you like, on the register those who have committed these crimes in offshore jurisdictions but who intend to live in New Zealand for more than 6 months. Again, as long as the offending was of a similar threshold to what the equivalent would have been in New Zealand, they too will need to be registered on this proposed register. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EI will spend a moment on the register itself. I think it is worth here in this first reading to just step through some of the components of that. It is going to have a range of personal information of these individuals: their names and other identifying particulars\u2014address and the like, as you would expect\u2014details of each qualifying offence, or corresponding offence if it was in an offshore jurisdiction; the date they were sentenced; the date the registrable offender ceased to be in custody; and, of course, an obligation that if any of that information changes, they have to update the Department of Corrections within 72 hours of any change or 48 hours if they are seeking to travel. Just as important, every 12 months there is an obligation to make sure that that has been reconfirmed as accurate. As has already been discussed this evening, the time frames in which they need to be on the register are 15 years or 8 years from the date they have been released from prison, or potentially for life depending, of course, on the seriousness of the qualifying offence for which they were convicted. As a point of detail, those who are on this register because of their non-custodial sentence and the judge\u2019s direction, are required to be on this register for 8 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EIn terms of the ongoing management of the register, obviously in this bill it is clear that the Department of Corrections and the Police will share responsibility for managing that. I think, again, that that is a very sensible and efficient conclusion. The Department of Corrections, whilst those offenders are in prison and once those on the register move out into the community, then swaps it over to the Police to be the lead manager of that interface. Agencies such as the Ministry of Social Development and Housing New Zealand will, of course, continue to have limited access to the information\u2014limited, but they do have the capacity to have access to it if it is clear that it is in the interests of public safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EObviously, this information needs to be updated to establish a complete picture of emerging risk of reoffending. I think that that is a key component of this register\u2014that it is not a static piece of data. Those with the greatest skills of being able to assess the risk profile of individuals can assess the data, can look at the trend line of recovery of the individual, and can build a particular support plan around them. It is that interface, if you like, between the data and a management plan over time that reduces the risk on our vulnerable children in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThat is why I think this is a good bill, and I welcome the conversation that we are going to have, as the Social Services Committee, over the next few months. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022343e911300324cd19d2b0b964341599b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022343e911300324cd19d2b0b964341599b\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to just begin my comments by saying\u2014not wishing to labour a point already well made by our Labour colleagues; and there is a terrible pun in there that was unintended\u2014that the matter of the Minister\u2019s choice of select committee does seem peculiar. I do not wish to impugn the Social Services Committee in any way\u2014I am sure that it is a splendid committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAccording to the advice on our very own parliamentary website, however, \u201CThe Social Services Committee considers matters relating to housing, senior citizens, social development, veterans\u2019 affairs, and work and income support.\u201D, and I struggle to see how the content of this bill fits under that umbrella of issues to be considered by that committee. It is not a matter of academic interest; it is a genuine concern that committees build up a level of expertise and experience in their area around specific matters of interest. The Law and Order Committee and the Justice and Electoral Committee are accustomed to working on legislation around offending, around courts, around corrections, and with police, and I really am puzzled as to why you would not send it to one of those committees. So be it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe Greens are supporting this bill going to the select committee at least, essentially based on the reality that we are willing to engage with any proposition that is aimed at protecting children. It is fair to say, I think, that most forms of offending against the law will find a level of tolerance in some parts of society. With traffic offences, some drug offences, and breaking the rules around tax you will find a cohort of people who are willing to tolerate and even participate in some of those things. Sex offending against children is abhorrent, I would argue, to all New Zealanders. It is something that none of us can tolerate, nor should we, and so any mechanism that might reduce the risk to our children is something that we are willing to engage in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe will engage in this process in good faith and we will endeavour to keep open minds, but the first most important question is: will the establishment of a child sex offender register make our children safer? That is the evidence and the information that we will be looking for in the select committee. We will be wanting to hear the evidence of experts and we will be wanting to engage with the research, to be persuaded that actually that is the case, because such evidence as there is seems at best ambivalent about whether these registers actually do any good in the real world or whether they are simply a means of appearing to do some good. As I say, we will engage with that in good faith, and we will be interested to see what the outcome is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EHaving said that, even if that primary question about whether a register could potentially protect children is answered to our satisfaction, we would still have some fairly significant concerns about this bill as drafted. Not least of all are concerns around the matters described in the section 7 report from the Attorney-General that indicates that the bill as drafted is inconsistent with sections 9 and 26 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, around disproportionately severe treatment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213ab6d7acc3b477497d1743158316c92\u0022\u003EHon Christopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Doesn\u2019t listen to anything I say. No one listens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfadea83e11a4b0888510da0025a9dc8\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON\u003C/span\u003E: Ha ha! I may quote back to the Minister on that comment, but for the moment it is double jeopardy, and the finding of the Attorney-General is that this bill is inconsistent in a way that cannot be justified. That is a very serious matter. It is not a nuanced commentary; it is quite clear-cut and it is quite black and white, and that is something that will have to be attended to and remedied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe main thing about this matter is that once a person is on the register for some offences then there is no going back\u2014it is for life. There is no possibility or no acknowledgment of reform. A person may, over time, step away from offending and their risk profile could drop to zero, and yet that person would for ever be on the register. I think it is important to recognise that the register\u2014OK, a name on a piece of paper\u2014is actually a great deal more than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe Minister did indicate some of the implications of being on this register. It includes name, date of birth, address, names of any children living at an address or where a registered person may be living, details of any club or organisation with which they are affiliated that might also have child participation\u2014and if you think that one through, that would include organisations like Forest and Bird. In fact, it is hard to think of any social club or group where children might not be involved. Also included are details of motor vehicles, all and any phone numbers, details of service providers for phones, details of internet service providers, and details of login names, usernames, and passwords. This is an incredibly intrusive list of requirements. This is an extraordinarily comprehensive array of information about a human being. It is almost zero privacy, and the significance of that I will come to when I mention the security or otherwise of such a register and our ability to keep such a register private.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe fact is that if a person chooses to travel from their place of residence they must give 48 hours\u2019 notice, and they must indicate where they are going to be staying and the names of any children who might be at that address. And somebody might be obliged to do this for 8 years, 15 years, or for life\u2014long past the point at which they may represent a risk to society or, particularly, a risk to our children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe cost of this legislation or, rather, of maintaining such a register has been commented on. It is in the many hundreds of millions of dollars. Some of that burden, we understand, would fall on the policing budget, which is already inadequate. The police are already underfunded to the point where they are struggling to provide an acceptable level of service, despite their very best efforts and despite their very successful attempts to find efficiencies, to find ways to do more with less. Nevertheless, the cost of this legislation in terms of its implementation would run into the hundreds of millions of dollars, and that is OK\u2014if that is going to actually protect our children, then, yes. The price ticket is not irrelevant, but it certainly becomes a matter of less importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EBut the worst-case scenario is that if we put this thing in place and it does not work, we have spent a great deal of money that could have otherwise been spent on provisions and on mechanisms that would help protect our children\u2014everything from education through to treatment, through to social mechanisms that might be a much better use of that money than spending it on something that may or may not work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI mentioned the matter of privacy, and Carmel Sepuloni, I think, outlined some of the dilemmas there. It is very difficult to have any confidence in the fact that a register of this nature would remain confidential\u2014private\u2014given the number of agencies that might potentially have access to it. We have rather a poor history in New Zealand. I will not sheet responsibility home to any particular Government or any particular time, but we do not have a particularly good history of keeping secrets. Once databases and their information are in the domain of the public sector, it is very difficult to guarantee their long-term security. That would be an extraordinary invasion, given, as I said, that people\u2019s log-in details, their passwords to get into their internet accounts, and their emails would be part of the information that could be accessible and, indeed, could be accessed by people who ought not to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EClause 39 of the bill as it is drafted would be something of a deal-breaker for the Greens. It says that the guidelines, which will be prepared by the commissioner, etc., \u201Cmay authorise the use of information contained in the register for a purpose other than the purpose for which the information was obtained\u201D, with the criterion being \u201Cif an authorised person reasonably believes such use is necessary to \u2026 prevent or reduce a threat to public safety \u2026\u201D\u2014end of story. It goes on to talk about particular concerns around protecting children, but the bottom line is that this information could\u2014at the whim of an authorised person\u2014be used for any purpose on the grounds that it might prevent or reduce a threat to public safety. I would be less concerned if \u201Cpublic safety\u201D was defined anywhere in this bill. It is not. One could draw some exceedingly long bows and provide this information on the flimsiest of excuses based on the wording of the current clause 39. I do not think that is acceptable. I do not think we could be part of supporting that, and I hope the select committee attends to that particular provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe point has been made that the bill is intended to be retrospective\u2014that it will apply to people who have been convicted before the passing of this legislation. We would have some serious reservations about that, and Jacinda Ardern in her contribution highlighted a couple of potential pitfalls where people may be captured under this legislation when, in fact, it was never the intention of the legislation to include those people within it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ESo, as I say\u2014going back to where I began\u2014we will certainly engage with this in good faith. We will look at the evidence, we will listen to the research, and we will seek out good information and make a decision as to whether or not we think a register would actually protect our children from this most heinous of crimes\u2014sexual offending against them\u2014and our actions from that point will be dependent on the information that we receive. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022 data-id=\u00221e46939f5119453b915ca4e3a4ad1ea2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e46939f5119453b915ca4e3a4ad1ea2\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak on the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Register) Bill. New Zealand First will be supporting this bill\u2019s referral to a select committee. We do, however, have some concerns, questions, and queries that, hopefully, will be addressed at the select committee. A few of them have already been mentioned. What I did was I went through the departmental disclosure statement and regulatory impact statement, and a lot of those questions fell out of there. So I will take this opportunity to go through those questions and queries from those documents there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EI will start with the disclosure statement and the general policy statement, and the main reason why New Zealand First is supporting this bill is actually quite aptly noted here. It says: \u201CInformation sharing between relevant agencies is recognised as an effective way to minimise the harm from re-offending by known child sex offenders, when complemented by a structured risk management framework. Child sex offender registers help government agencies identify and manage the risk of sex offending in the community, and provide offenders with incentives and support to maintain a low-risk lifestyle.\u201D So that is a good paragraph about the basis of why New Zealand First supports this bill, but what is this legislation trying to effect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EWhat I saw in the regulatory impact statement was of quite some concern, and I know that the Minister actually mentioned it in her first reading speech but kind of brushed over it. It states that \u201CThe potential for child sexual re-offending arises when convicted sex offenders are living in the community. \u2026 each year around 210 of these offenders are released back into the community [and] approximately 115 child sex offenders per year commence a community-based sentence. The majority of these offenders have no on-going contact with justice sector agencies after their sentence, even though they may present a significant risk of future harm.\u201D So when I read that I said, what is going on here? This cannot be a new problem that is occurring. We have got the information out there that we have got over a hundred child sex offenders in the community who pose a significant risk of future harm and there is no contact with our agencies at that stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EThat is obviously why we need to have something like a child sex offender register, but obviously there is a significant problem, apparently, and there has been for a long time. Given that information, it is no wonder there has been a 20 percent increase over the last couple of years. In the executive summary, it states that 1,819 sex offences against children occurred, which is up by over 20 percent from a decade earlier, but I do not see anywhere in any of these documents where they actually address the recidivist rate, or the reoffending rate, so this, obviously, is the target for the register.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EI went and did a little bit of research, and found that the sexual reoffending rate after the 12-month follow-up is in and around 10 percent, and after 24 months it actually jumps up to about 17 percent. So there is a really big problem, and this goes some way to addressing that problem. Obviously, child victims of sexual abuse are amongst the most vulnerable victims. The general public know that this is a different type of criminal and it is a different type of crime, which is why we need a different method to be able to deal with that, and that is what the register is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EWhat also needs to occur is wraparound services and the other services that would support and integrate with the register. I noticed that in the Bills Digest it suggests that there is a framework of risk minimisation that would support the register, but it does not go on to detail what that framework is. Again, it will be interesting to find out what exactly that framework is that will support the register. I think it is a key thing to note that this is not in itself going to stop child abuse. This targets the child abuse reoffenders, so we need other methods to help prevent child abuse. Carmel Sepuloni actually mentioned one of them, which is the bill that is going to come up tomorrow dealing with the mandatory registration of social workers. That is one of the prime examples of why we cannot look at the register as a silver bullet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EThere were a few options that were considered going through and coming up with the child protection offenders register, and it highlights the importance of what the considerations were in ending up at this stage. The options were to maintain the status quo, to extend the scope of the existing child sex offender harm reduction measures, and also to increase funding for NGOs in order to increase the provision of specialist assessments. All of those have limitations in themselves, from some being voluntary, to the status quo not working so we need to find a different mechanism. That is why New Zealand First is supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EIt actually took until the sixth speech today, from the Green Party, to start mentioning the funding and where the resources will be coming from. When I was reading that I was quite surprised at where this funding was actually going to come from. It says here that the 10-year cost for this proposal is around $150 million, and it states that \u201CSome capital components and all field operating costs for the Register and risk management framework amounting to $85.1 million (Corrections $70.6 million, Police $14.1 million, Courts $0.38 million) over ten years will be met from within existing baselines.\u201D Therefore, $85 million of the $150 million - odd is going to be met from existing baselines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EIt goes on to say: \u201CThe additional $9.1 million\u201D\u2014in regard to corrections\u2014\u201Cwill be absorbed by Corrections through efficiency gains.\u201D What that means, in other words, is\u2014tough luck; suck it up and do the job. Corrections will not get any more funding to do more work. In regard to the police, it says \u201CPolice will absorb the cost of its new activity \u2026 through achieving more effective utilisation of existing staff \u2026\u201D. More effective utilisation of existing staff. That means wearing more hats, doing more jobs, and no extra help, no extra staffing, and no extra funding to make this happen. What that says to me, actually, is that this could end up being yet another public service that is being stretched, and stretching to breaking point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EActually, I was looking at a study that was done by the Australian and New Zealand Journal of Criminology. One of the study\u2019s headings was \u201CThe impact of community notification on criminal justice agencies\u201D. I just want to quote this. It says: \u201CA small but growing body of research demonstrates that community notification has a significant impact on the agencies responsible for its administration \u2026 One of the most frequently cited concerns of administrators is that it places a strain on limited agency resources \u2026 Community notification schemes are undeniably expensive to implement and maintain, irrespective of whether they are active or passive \u2026 The time and money invested in activities associated with notification inevitably must be redirected from other areas, which could plausibly lead to an increase in other types of crime \u2026\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003ESo there is a lot of detail that has been somewhat brushed over in the presentation of this bill, and I think one that was kind of swept under the carpet a little bit and not mentioned by anyone in the National Party yet, not even the Minister for Social Development, was where the funds are coming from. In the end it is, unfortunately, going to be placed on the police, corrections, and the courts to find a way to make it happen. What we do not want to see is the potential for this register to do a good job being squandered by lack of resources once again from the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003ELike I said, New Zealand First is going to support this bill. I went through a few\u2014very few\u2014questions, queries, problems, and concerns that we had. I had a heap more to go through, but that will be coming through in the select committee. New Zealand First supports this bill going through to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022 data-id=\u00226e546547e80a431383feee59c43722e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e546547e80a431383feee59c43722e4\u0022\u003EJONO NAYLOR (National):\u003C/span\u003E Can I just say that it has been wonderful to hear such widespread support for this bill across the House this evening. I guess the reason why people have been so supportive of it is that keeping vulnerable children safe is at the heart of what this bill is trying to achieve. I think we can all agree on that. I think we would all agree that that is a very good thing for us to be doing, so that reason alone is, I guess, the main reason why the Minister for Social Development has chosen to put this legislation through the Social Services Committee. I have heard a bit of disquiet around people being concerned that perhaps this bill should have gone to the Justice and Electoral Committee or the Law and Order Committee. I can see the rationale behind what has drawn people to that way of thinking, but actually, when you consider that at the heart of this bill is the protection of vulnerable children, that is exactly what we are about in the Social Services Committee. I am sure that that committee will do an outstanding job of looking at the benefits of such a bill coming into law and that it will be able to weigh up those justice issues. There is a little bit of crossover between those committees anyway, and so I am sure that people will bring their expertise from the Justice and Electoral Committee and the Law and Order Committee into the Social Services Committee to be able to assess this bill as it takes its passage through Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022\u003EAs I have said, I think the great thing about this legislation is that it is about looking after potential victims\u2014people who are yet to suffer abuse, perhaps\u2014but it also looks to protect past victims from being abused again by people who may have offended against them. A bill like this, and putting together legislation like this, is, in fact, a balancing act\u2014a balancing act between the personal freedoms of the offenders and the safety of victims and potential victims. I have always been one who has believed in the fact that people should be given the opportunity to be rehabilitated and to come to a place where they can perhaps be reformed and where they would perhaps no longer offend and no longer be tempted to offend. I think this is something that can happen. But at the same time, we should not just presume that because somebody has shown some level of contrition, they are therefore not at risk of offending again. So, as I say, for the sake of those victims and potential victims, we need to put some protections in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022\u003EThis is, of course, a private register, and the reason for this is that it is not always beneficial for information like this to be sitting out there in the public domain. I am sure that we will get submissions coming into the select committee from people asking: \u201CWhy don\u2019t you just publish a public register so that we can all know who these people are?\u201D. I think that is not the answer, because it can lead to vigilante-type behaviour. It can even lead to the victimisation of offenders who have perhaps been rehabilitated and who are trying to make the best of living a good life again after having made some bad choices. So making this a public register is not the right thing to do. Therefore, it is important that we remember this and ensure that we keep the parameters of the privacy of this intact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022\u003EAlso, this is not a new concept. I remember sitting in the staffroom at Child, Youth and Family close to 20 years ago with people talking about whether or not a register like this would actually be helpful. I think that when you are looking at placing vulnerable children with families, this type of information would be good for Child, Youth and Family to know, particularly if it is looking to make a placement with a kin caregiver or with someone within the wh\u0101nau. Having access to this information via the police might be particularly useful, because the last thing that we would want to do is place a young person who has come into the custody of Child, Youth and Family into the care of somebody who is a known sex offender. Perhaps they are not in any particular ongoing contact with the justice system now. It might be historical, but still you would not want to take the risk of placing a child with them. So it is appropriate that people within Child, Youth and Family have access to this information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022\u003EI think it is really important to understand that it is the police and the Department of Corrections that are going to have direct access to this information, and they will have the ability to share it with authorised people within the Ministry of Social Development and Housing New Zealand Corporation. There has been a little bit of a suggestion that there is some concern about whether that information gets shared any further, and I think it is important to understand that the police or the Department of Corrections may then disclose this information to a third party when it is deemed necessary to protect a child or when a child is at risk. So it is not just that the police or the Department of Corrections have the ability to share this with absolutely anybody. For example, if a parent of a child or children was moving in with a new partner and that person was on this register, it might be appropriate for that parent to know about that because it might not be something that they knew about that person. So there will be some parameters around how and when this information can be shared, but it does not mean that it is then becoming a de facto public register. It will still be a private register limited to those people who are authorised to view it and who will have some discretion if they deem it is appropriate to disclose that to a third party in order to keep a child safe from harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022\u003EAt the moment, offenders can disappear back into communities when they finish a sentence. If they have got to the end of any protection orders or any ongoing parole, it is appropriate that we want the authorities to be able to continue to keep track of them. What it means is that those people who know the offenders, who know their patterns of behaviour, and who know the things that are most likely to be triggers that might lead to them reoffending will then be able to assess the living arrangement that somebody is moving into. They will be able to look and say \u201CActually, that\u2019s not a good idea.\u201D and perhaps, at that point, provide some level of intervention. It also means that we will be able to ensure that when those offenders are perhaps tempted to reoffend, the knowledge that there is somebody who is keeping track of them will also act as a deterrent for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022\u003ESo even though they are not actually being punished, they are not having to still perform some sort of sentence, and they are not listed under ongoing monitoring, there is at least something in place that says: \u201CActually, someone is keeping an eye on us. Someone is keeping an eye on me to make sure that I am behaving and to make sure that I am not reoffending.\u201D And do you know what? If they really are fully reformed, if they really have been fully rehabilitated, then those people will not have anything to be afraid of because that information will not be shared with anybody else. They will be able to continue living a normal life, but our communities can continue to operate in a way that makes them, at least in some way, better protected than they are now. It is not onerous for those people who are in this situation to have to report in once a year the information that is required to be on the register.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022\u003ESo it is a good piece of legislation. It achieves, hopefully, good outcomes. I am looking forward to the select committee process, when we can perhaps iron out any of the kinks in the bill that might need to be ironed out and when we can fully debate that trade-off between people\u2019s right to go about their business and personal freedoms, and the needs of vulnerable children in our society. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022feecdd0d349447dab38bd9eef141c106\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022feecdd0d349447dab38bd9eef141c106\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. Jan Logie\u20145 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u002215c31ae8fefb4a7d8ada0fac1158dbd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215c31ae8fefb4a7d8ada0fac1158dbd6\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call on this, the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Register) Bill. The Green Party is supporting this bill going to a select committee so that we can hear evidence from a range of experts on this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe do, of course, have child welfare at the heart of our concern generally, and we specifically have a long history in this House of trying to improve our system response to sexual violence and to keep our children safe. So we do have an interest in the identified intent of this bill. However, as it stands, as it is written at the moment, we do have significant concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI would also like to just raise my sense of bemusement that this is being referred to the Social Services Committee. Of course, as a committee last term we had the inquiry into social services for sexual violence and considered some of those issues and certainly heard from providers which are providing treatment for harmful sexual behaviours and sexual offending. So we have some history of looking at sexual violence issues but not at all of the justice response to those issues, and this bill gives powers primarily to police and the Department of Corrections, which will have direct access to this register, and we have not considered those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI would like to note that actually the evidence we heard from those providing services to people engaging in harmful sexual behaviours was that they were very sceptical of the value of registers and warned us against them, in fact. They did note that they still have concerns that people referring themselves for treatment for these behaviours or thought patterns that may lead them to worry that they may offend actually are still finding it very difficult to get into courses to be able to address those behaviours or attitudes in themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo the thought that the Government is prioritising a register when we are yet to be sure there is evidence that it will make a difference, over the provision of those services that we know have a very high success rate, seems to me to be less than constructive, particularly when we know that the conviction rate for sexual violence in this country is 1 percent. So this is dealing with a tiny, tiny percentage of people who are offending against children in this country and it is focusing $150 million of precious resource towards a scheme for which, actually, we do not have international evidence that can assure us that it is going to be effective. The register is targeted towards this tiny, tiny percentage of people out of a much larger group when we could actually be putting that money into establishing a really solid system of prevention and early intervention in our communities. My instinct\u2014and from listening to people working in this sector\u2014is that our resources would be better focused on prevention and early intervention rather than this register, which does raise quite a few concerns around the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI do also just want to point out one of the strange, possibly unintended consequences that might arise from this and that we do want to hear evidence on. This is that it may send a message that sex offending is one of those crimes that you cannot rehabilitate, that we need to just keep an eye on these people, and that is simply not true. There is absolutely a really, really high rate of behaviour change. There are under 5 percent, I think, of people who have offended who after treatment are still a risk. We actually have parole amendment legislation that allows for extended supervision orders to be renewed for that group of people. We do not want to create the impression that may make it harder for people to disclose if they think somebody is never going to change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00220bfa71622cc346d390ef0ab960807486\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bfa71622cc346d390ef0ab960807486\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Adrian Rurawhe\u20145 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee1659940e1e46b5a21028fadaa0e87e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee1659940e1e46b5a21028fadaa0e87e\u0022\u003EADRIAN RURAWHE (Labour\u2014Te Tai Hau\u0101uru):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. We have heard many good contributions to this debate. Keeping our children safe is one of the most important things that our society can do, and one of the things that is not addressed by this bill but that is important to be mentioned is parents being able to keep their children safe. I acknowledge the previous speaker, Jan Logie, because I totally agree with what she has said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EI congratulate the Minister for Social Development on bringing this bill to the House. The Social Services Committee will be able to deal with this efficiently and in a way that it needs to so that our children can be protected. But that is only a small part of the equation, I think. My understanding, and the way I read things, is that the bill deals with those who potentially will reoffend. It is the offenders who have already offended who go on to the register, and that deals with just a small percentage of the overall potential offenders out there. But it is an important step that can potentially prevent further harm to children within our society. So for that I acknowledge that the bill is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThe register and the sharing of that information is important to recognise as well\u2014and to also identify the potential risk there and the rights of those people who will be registered on that register. The bill does break new ground in that sense. I think the select committee will have some important work to do around it. There is certainly, I think, a test that will need to be met for this register and the processes involved in it to be effective. I stand here to acknowledge that and to highlight that issue. The rights of those people need to be recognised, as well. What the long-term impact is going to be I do not know, but I certainly think that that is a question the select committee needs to answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThe increase in offending against children\u2014and over 50 percent of all sexual offending has been against children\u2014is such a terrible statistic. That is something that needs to be dealt with not only through this bill but also in the way that all agencies deal with our families. The Government has a policy on Wh\u0101nau Ora. I think Wh\u0101nau Ora, from my understanding, is one of those policies that needs to be interwoven in every single piece of legislation that affects our families. I want to put it to the select committee that it should also take notice of that policy\u2014the Government\u2019s own policy on that issue\u2014and apply it to this bill. And it should make sure that it considers every other measure that it can in empowering families to take responsibility for themselves, and that it also looks at providing additional resources for families to be able to keep their children safe. I think that is the main message that I want to give to the House and to the select committee on this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EWe support this bill\u2019s referral to the select committee, but with reservations, to ensure that the select committee does all that it can to make this bill the best it can be. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u0022441158aa71234758a03794d3c17dd7cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022441158aa71234758a03794d3c17dd7cf\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the first reading of the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Register) Bill. I would like to acknowledge the Minister in charge of the bill, the Hon Anne Tolley, for bringing this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThis bill will enable the establishment of New Zealand\u2019s first child sex offender register from July next year\u2014that is, July 2016. This register will enable information sharing among entities dealing with the issue. This register will be established by the police and the Department of Corrections. Once it is set up, authorised staff members will have access to this register to identify and manage risk posed by convicted child sex offenders when they come to the end of their sentences or by those who are serving non-custodial sentences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EAs we have heard from the Minister and other speakers, this information will not be publicly available, but it will be made available to third parties only if there is a significant risk to a child\u2019s safety posed by a convicted registered child sex offender. This information will then be released to third parties like parents, guardians, or school principals. Convicted child sex offenders over the age of 18 will go on this register\u2014those who are convicted for committing such crimes against children under the age of 16. So if they have been sentenced, or if they are serving non-custodial sentences, or if they have been convicted overseas for a qualifying offence and they come back to live here in New Zealand for more than 6 months, they will be required to go on that register.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThis register will contain quite a bit of information about the offender\u2014not just the name and the address but it will have some identifying particulars about the offender. It will also have information about the offence and the date of sentencing for the qualifying offence. So, as this register contains extensive information about the offender and also the offence committed, this register is not going to be publicly available. As I said before, this information will be made available to third parties as specified agencies only if there is a significant risk to a child\u2019s safety, overall welfare, or sexual safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThis bill also covers the suppression order aspect. It is quite common that in these kinds of cases people apply for suppression orders. In respect of convicted child sex offenders who are subject to suppression orders, their information on this register may also be disclosed to third parties. These convicted child sex offenders on the register do not have any restrictions on their usual activities. If they wish to travel they will be able to travel, but there will be some reporting requirements. For example, if a convicted child sex offender on the register wants to go away from their usual residential address for more than 48 hours, they will be required to report to the commissioner. They will be required to provide information about their plan at least 48 hours before they commence their travel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThis bill is part of National\u2019s big programme to keep young people safe from harm. It is important that we look after people. They should feel safe in their homes and communities. It is important that everyone, including young people, is treated with respect and dignity. It is not just about tackling crime; this register is about preventing crime as well. Our focus is to make sure that we are preventing crime from happening in the first place. We know that the crime rate is the lowest in 35 years in New Zealand and that New Zealanders are benefiting from this low crime rate. This has happened because this National Government is hard on criminals. We have toughened prison sentences for gang members. We have stopped the release of violent criminals on parole, and also the street racing offences have halved since the new legislation passed. This bill is an example of how we are continuing our work to protect our young ones\u2014children\u2014in the community. It is important that we protect them from any violent or sexual crime. Our goal is to protect the public and to hold offenders accountable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe are using technology. National introduced 24/7 GPS monitoring of high-risk offenders but this register is going to be useful because it will allow information sharing among different entities. This is also about breaking the cycle of reoffending and imprisonment. The register will help different agencies to keep track of these convicted child sex offenders and to also monitor their circumstances. Our interest is to keep victims safe. Our interest is to make sure that victims are not revictimised and offenders are not reoffending. Victims should not be always living in the fear that offenders are around them. Parents of children should not be worried about offenders hanging around their houses, playgrounds, or schools. We need to make sure that the system provides an assurance to them that we are keeping track of convicted child sex offenders. We should be able to protect children from known offenders so that children get the best possible opportunities to get ahead in life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EChildren, if they are abused sexually or physically, can take a long time to recover. They may not get back on track for their whole lives. They may suffer mentally and physically because of the abuse that they might have faced at a young age. So we want to make sure that victims get the right kind of support, firstly, to deal with the aftermath of the crime, also long-term support should be available to help bring them back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThe Government is ensuring that our focus is on victims. We want to prevent sexual abuse happening against children and this can be done with the help of communities, parents, schools, and legislation like this. It is very sad to see when offenders go out and commit the same crime repeatedly and victims are revictimised. That is where this bill is going to provide protection for children. At a recent public meeting in Mount Roskill I spoke to inform them about this bill coming before the House. It was quite well-received and there were a lot of positive responses to this bill. We want the public to have trust in the system, and that trust will come only if we have the right kind of mechanisms in place. The setting up of this sex offender register is a significant step forward to protect children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EAnother important thing about this bill is that it also establishes an offence for people who do not provide information for this register. So if convicted child sex offenders fail to provide information to go on this register, they can be fined up to $2,000 and can be sent to jail for up to 1 year. If they provide misleading or wrong information, that is taken even more seriously, and they can be fined up to $4,000 and sent to jail for up to 2 years. Convicted child sex offenders serving a sentence at the time the new legislation comes into force will also go on to this register.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003ESo the aim of this bill is to keep track of convicted child sex offenders, monitor their circumstances, and see whether there is any need for any action to be taken. The information on these convicted child sex offenders will be continually updated so that the information will be the most recent. Because of the type of information on the register, the register is not publicly available but, as I said earlier, that information will be made available only if there is a significant risk posed by a convicted child sex offender to a child in the community. I believe this step will reduce child abuse, so I support this bill and commend the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022764050bcd4d54f5581e28fd70bed770c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022764050bcd4d54f5581e28fd70bed770c\u0022\u003EPOTO WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E There is no more important job for this House than to keep our children safe. I, for one, am hopeful that the work on this piece of legislation will do just that. As a parent there is nothing that makes you more fearful than the harm that may befall your child. I know that parents whom I have spoken to whose children have been offended against in the manner that is described in this bill are incredibly emotional about what happens to their children. We have an opportunity to look at the impacts of sexual violence on our children and do something really useful about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThere have been many speakers who have talked about what the potential for this bill is. In a previous life having worked in family violence, not necessarily in sexual violence but in family violence, I have spoken about having run a refuge where we used to say that six women and a piece of paper was all we had to keep our women and our tamariki safe. In this regard we may be falling into the same kind of trap that a register that for all intents and purposes is designed to keep our children safe may not achieve that, because we know that a register will register those who have already offended and will do nothing about protecting our children from the harm that may befall them from those predators in the community whom we know nothing about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EOnly 1 percent of sexual offences are actually reported to the police. We are talking about recording a small number of known offenders and doing nothing about protecting our children from the prevalence of sexual violence in our community. We know that it is prevalent. We know that from the statistics around mental health. We know from the statistics around suicide that sexual violence is prevalent in our community, and I do not believe that without proper mechanisms, support, and therapy in place a register of known sex offenders will achieve what we want to achieve to keep our children safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThis bill talks about an arbitrary period of time that offenders will be on the register\u20148 years, 15 years, or for life. There has been no discussion about the validity of those dates. Is 8 years better than 7 years, or would it be better to have 10 years? We need to actually have some real, valuable information to ensure that whatever period we have people on the register for is useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThe other thing that we should be considering, which does not appear anywhere in the bill that I can see, is the requirement for offenders to actually get treatment. There is no point in saying that after a period of time a sex offender is no longer a risk. There needs to be a prescription of treatment and monitoring that that work has been completed by that offender. That does not appear anywhere in the bill. The bill talks about the actual criteria by which you would appear on the register\u2014you must be over 18 at the time of the offence and convicted of a qualifying offence, and it can be custodial or non-custodial. Also, a sentencing judge can put you on the register at their discretion. There is nothing about the nature, necessarily, of the offending, the nature of the treatment that that offender will take on board, and then again there is nothing about his or her level of risk to children, going forward, that appears in this bill except for an arbitrary date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EI have real concerns about who will have access to the information about people who appear on the register. We are talking about staff from the Ministry of Social Development and from Housing New Zealand. I can kind of understand what that is about\u2014about the placement of sex offenders into the community\u2014but I do not feel comfortable about the level of protection of that data once it is opened to scrutiny by various members of those organisations. There is also some talk that caregivers, teachers, and others will also have access to the names. That is one very small step away from being a public register. I do not believe that the level of scrutiny that is required to be applied has been given to that very core detail around the privacy of your information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThere is very little that holds this piece of legislation to ensuring the privacy of offenders if it is opened up to many other people getting access to that information. I, for one, am not suggesting that we do not have a register of some sort, but I would really want to ensure that there is a high level of protection around that information and that it is used only in the manner in which it should be. We know this is a hugely emotional subject matter, particularly for parents and for other members of the community who want to keep their children safe. Getting access to that information could result in a terrible unintended consequence. I, for one, want to make sure that I would be comfortable about the storage and the access of this data. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EWe say right in the very beginning in the explanatory note that the register will reduce reoffending against child victims. I am not sure that this bill actually will achieve that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThere is quite a prescription about the reporting mechanism, the terms of reporting, and the restrictions around travel, and they proceed for a significant period of time. I do want to refer to the concerns of the Attorney-General that these provisions are inconsistent with section 9 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Even after someone has potentially paid for the crime that they have conducted, they are still required by this bill to continue to be monitored, to continue to report and to continue to have their access to freedom restricted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EBecause it has not really been touched on anywhere, I want to refer to the opportunity to get treatment or therapy to ensure that you are no longer a risk as a sex offender. I want to refer to a report that came out of the Department of Corrections. It is quite an old report\u2014from 2002-03. It talks about the overall recidivism rate as being 8.1 percent across the three programmes that the Department of Corrections conducted, but the recidivism rate for people who completed their treatment programme was 5.2 percent\u2014a reduction of almost half. If we do not have a mechanism in our legislation to ensure we get good therapeutic interventions, we miss out on actually providing safety from at least half of the offenders who will offend again. I believe that when this bill goes to the select committee there are many questions to be asked around those types of provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EWe are supporting this bill\u2019s referral to the select committee. I am honoured to be able to sit on the select committee and to be able to ask those questions, and I commend the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002258c87729858c44a7b84c96f17eece3d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258c87729858c44a7b84c96f17eece3d0\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E The Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Register) Bill\u2014it is really all in the name, and particularly in the first two words. It is about child protection. I have heard a few of the speakers throughout the night lament that it is not a silver bullet, but, unfortunately, there is no silver bullet with offending of any kind, and particularly not with complex offending like child sex offending. There are many reasons why people offend and it is a very difficult issue to deal with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EOver several years the Government agencies have been increasingly aware of a lack of coordinated information about known child sex offenders in the community. It is interesting, today, that the Productivity Commission has just published a report on social services, and one of the major findings in that report is that it identified that siloing of information amongst Government departments and agencies is a major problem. I think that this bill seeks, in some way, to go towards fixing that particular problem in this area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EEver since the Privacy Act came in we seem to have got ourselves so fearful. We are so tangled up in red tape around privacy that good sense has gone out the window. When one Government department holds information that is really the key to unlocking some potential actions that can save issues in other areas, we are sitting on that information and not sharing it. This bill is absolutely about unlocking that and cutting through the red tape to allow the sensible management of people in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EIn recent years, Government agencies\u2019 attempts to institute new initiatives to combat the risks posed by known child sex offenders have highlighted the lack of a source of coordinated information\u2014the lack of an agreed risk-assessment process and an agreed management framework for a coordinated preventative action. Those are a lot of words, but basically what that is saying is that we have some information and we are not able to do anything about it; those offenders are sitting out there in the public domain, and we really should take a sensible approach to deal with that. If you have a register with private information about those offenders, then you have to balance risk and manage it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EOf course, the offenders have a right to privacy, but there is also the right of people to live their lives without fear of being offended against in such a way. People in families, as we know, can get really fearful, and sometimes overly so, about these sorts of people coming out into the community. Having the measures that are taken in this bill, which I will talk about in a moment, will go a long way towards managing this in a sensible manner and balancing those risks, as I mentioned earlier. So the bill is about managing risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut the issue is that in 2012-13 there were 505 offenders convicted of just over 1,800 sex offences against young children, and that was up 20 percent on the previous decade. In 2014 it was 451 offences\u2014a number of ACC sensitive claims, particularly for young people subject to sexual abuse. Each year around 200 sex offenders are released back into the community. Last year it was 294, and on top of that around 115 sex offenders start a community-based sentence each year. Most of those have no ongoing contact with the justice sector or agencies after they are released. That is where this bill steps in, and we will be able to have confidence that those people are in contact with the relevant authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EAll of those statistics that I just rattled off represent only the tip of the iceberg. People have come out tonight with statistics about how many other people might be out there as offenders who have never come before the justice sector. Well, we simply do not know how many people there are or what percentage there is, but we do know that it is a very small percentage who are convicted and who come to the attention of the authorities. But, at least, we can manage only what we can manage. We have to start somewhere and I believe that this is a very good place to start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I touched on earlier is that some of those people who have been subject to abuse go on to become abusers themselves. So breaking the cycle where possible is very important, in my view. We need an overarching framework to coordinate preventative action to support offenders, and that will be a part of this. That has probably not been touched on that well, but offenders themselves, when they get out into society, often slip back into their bad ways because they are not supported. If they are not supported, they can slip back out of their low-risk lifestyles that they are able to live in, and back into their old ways. We need to support them to ensure that that does not occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe bill will help Government agencies to carry out their duties to protect children and society effectively. At the moment, they are really trying to fight with both hands tied behind their backs, and we are actually untying those knots and letting them get on with what they do well. It will increase support, as I said, for the offenders, but it will also discourage reoffending by giving those offenders confidence that they are living in a society that they are being supported in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe offenders will be required to update their information annually, and within 72 hours of any change to their personal information that is held on a register. That information includes their aliases, fingerprints, a photo of the offender that has to be updated every year, current address, workplace, employer, car registration, IP address\u2014and, of course, that is very important because often these people are very active on the internet, if they end up in that area; so we need to ensure we know that\u2014and passport details. As I said, they will have to update their fingerprints and their photos with the police every year, and this ensures that the police are actually working with relevant information. There is little point in having a register if the register is out of date, and it would simply serve no purpose at all to have this register if we did not know where the people were living at any given point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI think, to cut to the chase, this register is necessary. The bill will limit accessibility to the register, and I think we have heard a few people talk tonight about ensuring that. It is only one small step from setting up the register to making it fully public. We do not want vigilante activity; we want this information to be protected. There are, indeed, sanctions in the bill for anyone who releases information to unauthorised people\u2014that is, to be subject to a prison term of up to 6 months for an individual, or a fine of $25,000 for a body corporate. So I think those things are managed and are covered as best they can be. As I said, it is about managing risk, and I think the bill treads that good balance and deals with it as well as we can expect. It is a great pleasure to commend the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Social Services Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b005f0602cc4fd088d3758da98b953f\u0022\u003EAgricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e3c152ea77d49bcb361b2510040c776\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3ec70708b794228a69d877b376bd966\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3ec70708b794228a69d877b376bd966\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister for Primary Industries)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Associate Minister for Primary Industries: I move, That the Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Primary Production Committee to consider this bill. Before explaining this bill in more depth, I want firstly to acknowledge the stakeholders who have been involved in developing this very important bill and thank them for their patience. Getting this bill into Parliament has taken some time, due to the complex nature of the legislation and the subject matter. To remain internationally competitive, the New Zealand agricultural industry requires access to the latest agricultural products to manage the pests of plants and animals, to increase productivity, and to ensure the health of our farm animals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Amendment Bill aims to remove barriers to agricultural compounds being registered in New Zealand by extending data protection for innovative trade name products and conferring data protection on non-innovative trade name products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EAll agricultural compounds used in New Zealand must be registered under the Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Act 1997. When suppliers of agricultural products apply to register a product in New Zealand, their application must be supported with data on the product\u2019s safety and efficacy. For example, an application to register a pesticide for use on food-producing crops would need to be accompanied by information on how the product complies with New Zealand\u2019s maximum residue limits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EData protection is important because developing data is expensive, and the New Zealand market, particularly for our small horticultural sectors, is relatively small. This makes the business case for investing and developing data marginal in many instances. Data protection is valued by business because it confers an advantage on an applicant by forcing later applicants to develop their own data or wait until the protection expires. In this way, it prevents subsequent applicants from piggybacking on the costly research of the original applicant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWe need the right level of data protection to encourage overseas suppliers to invest in registering new products and uses in New Zealand. The Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Act currently offers much narrower protection than other countries like Australia, the US, the EU, and Canada have. For many years, industry representatives in some of our key horticultural sectors like pipfruit and citrus have advocated for longer and broader data protection. Without these products, their productivity will suffer, they may fall behind their international competitors, and, in the worst case, their viability may be threatened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EA Government review found examples of products available in other jurisdictions, but not in New Zealand. After considering these positions, the Government decided that modest extensions to data protection provisions are warranted. We do not want to inhibit competition and prevent businesses from accessing reasonably priced agricultural compounds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EFor innovative products, the bill extends data protection from the current 5 years to a maximum of 8 years. In addition, the bill introduces a new category of data protection for non-innovative products. Three years of data protection will be provided for information provided in support of applications to register non-innovative products, including reformulations and new uses of existing products. The bill also makes minor consequential amendments to the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act 1996 and a definition in the Medicines Act 1981 to keep data protection provisions across these statutes properly aligned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Amendment Bill is important for the suppliers of crop protection and animal health products, and the industries that rely on these products for their livelihoods. I believe the bill strikes the right balance between incentivising the registration of products that our sectors need and encouraging competition in the agricultural product market place, but I remain interested in stakeholder views on whether we have got the balance right. I encourage those with an interest in this area to contribute to the select committee process that will now follow. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u00222b22870d37f4454c9ab36c5ff11860cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b22870d37f4454c9ab36c5ff11860cf\u0022\u003EMEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. E ng\u0101 mema o te Whare nei, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. I am honoured to lead Labour\u2019s contribution to this bill we are debating tonight, in place of the very experienced and very knowledgable Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, who, no doubt, will be undertaking his own agricultural compounds and veterinary medicines of sorts as co-captain of the New Zealand Parliamentary Rugby Team representing us on the other side of the world. So I wish them and the All Blacks the very, very best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EWhat does this bill do? This bill extends the period of protection for confidential information given in support of an application to register an innovative trade name product from 5 to 8 years, by allowing 1 year of additional protection for each new use added to the registration. It also expands the scope of data protection coverage to include confidential information provided in support of applications to register non-innovative trade name products and uses for 3 years. This means that suppliers of agricultural and veterinary medicines would have their products protected for longer in addition to their 20-year patents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThere is argument in the international literature about whether longer patent times incentivise more innovation or not. It will create a strong incentive to produce a new product, but it also reduces the pool of ideas to design new products. As it extends the effective monopoly on these products for a further 3 years, it can mean higher costs for farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIn standing here and offering Labour\u2019s position on this bill, I think it is important that I share with the House the consideration that we had in terms of getting to the point of supporting this bill. We consider that 300 companies have approximately 3,000 products registered for sale under the Act. These companies are likely to be in support of the changes. But, on the flip side, there were very low interest levels in consultations, with only 29 submissions. Although those who use the system were in favour, generic product manufacturers and Federated Farmers were not so supportive. On the pro side, supporting this bill, this could increase the access to new innovative products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement indicates that the lack of new-use data protection may be putting off several pest control applications, like contorta pine, white fly in glasshouse tomatoes, and western flower thrip. On the flip side, this gives a monopoly to producers that will raise costs on farmers at a time when they are under significant strain. In submissions, Federated Farmers sought to narrow data protection and shorten protection periods to support competition and low costs. On the pro side, again, Labour generally opposes bills at first reading only in principle, and we feel it is important that we send this bill to the select committee because it will help shape and strengthen it and address some of those concerns we have outlined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ELabour has taken a position on the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement. We oppose the undermining of Pharmac. This includes opposing data protection extension for medicinal products. It could be considered inconsistent with our position to then support this agricultural data protection extension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EFinally, our last consideration was that the issue was first raised and consultation undertaken by the fifth Labour Government in 2006. Therefore, Labour will support this bill\u2019s referral to the select committee, but we want to see a better analysis of the costs and benefits from officials and reassurance from the sector that this is going to be for its benefit. As I said, the bill will extend data protection for new uses of innovative products and for non-innovative products by up to 3 years. This is in addition to the 5 years of data protection innovative products have access to and their 20-year patents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThere is the potential for these measures to increase access to innovative new products, as I outlined earlier, for several pest control applications: contorta pine, white fly in glasshouse tomatoes, and western flower thrip. However, extending data protection means a longer period of effective monopoly for some products. That could lead to higher prices for farmers at a time when many are struggling due to falling dairy prices. In the consultation that was run on these measures, although those who used the Act were broadly in favour of extending data protection, generic product manufacturers and Federated Farmers sought narrow data protection and shortened protection periods to support competition and low costs. At a time when dairy prices are crashing, several regions\u2019 economies are shrinking, and half of Silver Fern Farms is being sold to a subsidiary of China\u2019s Bright Food, we want to see more comprehensive action from the Government to support economic development in the regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI want to turn to the background. It is important to acknowledge where this is all derived from. I want to acknowledge the Government working group that was established in 2008 to review the data protection regime. The Government of the day commissioned Covec Ltd, an independent economic research organisation, to examine the effects of New Zealand\u2019s current data protection rules on the market. I have got the report here. I am not going to read all of it, but I just want to highlight a couple of the points to impress on members the point as to where this particular bill comes from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIn terms of what the issue was, the report: \u201Cseeks to evaluate whether the present rules regarding data protection are consistent with maximising the net benefits to the agricultural compound and veterinary medicines industry in particular, and the agricultural sector and New Zealand more generally. To this extent, this report seeks to inform policy makers on whether there is a need for change to the regulatory environment relating to data protection so as to maximise these net benefits.\u201D Further on, the report talks about negative impacts, and I do want to take the time to just highlight them briefly: \u201CAlthough the current rules facilitate vigorous competition and can lower prices for end-users, the absence of data protection can also deter suppliers from: developing and registering new products using existing chemistry; registering existing products for new uses; or providing data for reassessments.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EOverall, the report, the evidence, and the analysis outlined suggests that any increase in net benefits to New Zealand from increasing data protection are likely to be greatest in relation to new-use registrations. There may also be benefits from providing data protection for reformulations, although this is less clear. Whether the net impact of an extension of data protection for reassessment will be positive is perhaps even more uncertain, although there may be policy approaches\u2014for example, cost-sharing\u2014that could address any anti-competitive impact that may arise from such a change. There do not appear to be any significant issues arising from the 5-year data protection period provided for the registration of new innovative agricultural compounds and veterinary medicines. Therefore, Labour stands to support this bill in its first reading and its referral to the select committee. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u00229895e1183ae14ab8ae6c132fb4f06887\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229895e1183ae14ab8ae6c132fb4f06887\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E The Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Amendment Bill is kind of music to the ears of the Primary Production Committee. It is the first bill we have had in this term of Parliament, and I have to say that it is a bit of a relief because there is certainly some truth in the old adage that idle hands do the devil\u2019s work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223824b2b4fb8f4112b087c873c04bc4ad\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Mr Chair!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e06d251d8584d7bb5bc69daf2e1d17f\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: And so to have Richard Prosser\u2019s hands busy will be a very good thing for us, and Steffan Browning\u2019s even more so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EOne of the challenges we face in an isolated, small country with a comparatively small market is attracting the very best of international products. It has been apparent for a long time in New Zealand, and particularly apparent in the agricultural sector. One of the challenges we have because of the small market is that we have a very limited ability to attract the very best products from around the world to New Zealand to establish themselves in the market place unless we give them the opportunity to get some advantage from being here. Very good examples in the past have been the ivermectin products that came into the country and Roundup. Those are two examples of products that have come into the country under the current regime and that have established themselves and gone on and been, obviously, reproduced and copied in many forms as a result of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe bill will help encourage the entry of more of these products into our market place, and, as the world-leading, food-producing nation we are, we need access to the very best products we can attract at the most competitive prices we can get them. Of course, if we cannot attract the very best products, we have got a significant challenge, and that is what this bill sets out to address. It gives us the opportunity, right across the agriculture and horticulture sector, particularly\u2014and other areas as well, but particularly those two areas\u2014to attract products to New Zealand and get them tested, registered, and utilised in our primary production sector, which will make a massive difference to our ability to produce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI was a bit taken by the use of the term \u201Cinnovative chemicals\u201D. I find, and as you will read in the definition in the bill, that innovative chemicals are, in fact, new ones that are being introduced to the country. They have a bit of an advantage in this process, in that they get a longer protection term than chemicals\u2014I do not like the word \u201Cchemicals\u201D, but I guess that is the word I am using\u2014that come into the country and have already been used in other products. They are the non-innovative chemicals. They have been used elsewhere in the world and proven, as well. So that is an interesting definition that we are using there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EBoth sides of the industries are concerned that the current data protection level is not sufficient and is inhibiting registration of the latest technologies, as I have said. I think the Government review found evidence of that, and, consequently, we have got this bill following on from it. We do not want\u2014as the last speaker, Meka Whaitiri, talked about\u2014to stifle competition because, I think, there is a balance between stifling competition and giving us the ability to use the very best of products in this country. So the bill is designed to encourage businesses to register new products and to register more uses for products that already exist. This is quite common where products come into the country, are utilised for the specific reason they are designed for, trialled in other areas, and found to work much better than was expected, so it is pretty important that we are able to extend those product uses, and, consequently, the companies that extend those product uses get extra protection around that for another year or two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo I think this is a very good bill. I think it will make a difference, and it is ironic that a small piece of legislation like this can have such an impact, or potentially such an impact, on the New Zealand agricultural sector\u2014so it is really important for us. One would hope that all parties will support this bill in its first reading as we will be encouraging all stakeholders to share their views with us. I found that having preconceived ideas is perhaps not always the most productive way to make change. There will be controls on residues set out in parts of this bill, and there will be other items of interests, I think, to all sorts of sectors in the New Zealand economy. I think that the process we will go through with the select committee and the submissions that come to it will cover many and varied areas of the use of agricultural chemicals and the like. I look forward to having this bill before the Primary Production Committee and I would encourage all interested parties to submit on it when the time comes. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00220b0d2248c2ba40c9a49f861420d2d192\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b0d2248c2ba40c9a49f861420d2d192\u0022\u003EDr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on this bill. I would like to congratulate the chair of the Primary Production Committee, Ian McKelvie, who has just taken his seat, for finally getting some work to do. I think it is an indictment on this Government, actually, that this is the first piece of legislation that we have seen in this space in this term of Parliament. This is, of course, from a party in Government that purports to be the party of farmers, and it is finally taking its first piece of legislation to the Primary Production Committee. So I would like to congratulate that chair on finally getting some work through to his committee and on seeing some legislation. Maybe you could speak to the Leader of the House about upping the work rate of the legislative programme in your area\u2014not your area, Mr Assistant Speaker; that member\u2019s area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Meka Whaitiri outlined very clearly, Labour\u2019s position is that we are supporting this bill going to the select committee, firstly, because we would like to see the select committee do some work and, secondly, because we actually think that there is a really important function that has to occur here in terms of the submission process. There are clearly some very important questions that need to be addressed in the process of the select committee\u2019s examination of this legislation. We have had a good outline from speakers who have spoken about the function of this bill\u2014about innovative and non-innovative products, about extending time periods, and about the balance that needs to be drawn between providing protection and the incentive to innovate for agrichemical companies and between the need to maintain competitiveness and not price some of these products out of the market for farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we are talking about here is the kind of evidence that is required when protection is sought\u2014the kind of evidence that needs to be filed. This is always a balance for any company that is innovating, whether it is for a patent or for a plant variety right. There is a level of detail that needs to be filed, and the person who is doing the filing has to have confidence that they can still protect their advantage and their investment through the fact that there is a strong business case for them to do this. So this is always vitally important. We know that in New Zealand\u2019s agribusiness industry, having the ability to protect the intellectual property that we invest in is vitally important\u2014again, whether that is through plant variety rights or through bringing in new uses or new products that can be used in our agricultural sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think that there has been some very good commentary on the bill. One of the issues is around new uses, and I think that the previous speaker, Ian McKelvie, has talked about this and about how sometimes it can be that for a particular product, when an innovative use for that product has come up because it crosses over\u2014whether that is in the human consumption chain or the animal consumption chain\u2014the kinds of regulations around how you use it and its use differ. There are different regulatory standards that have to be met. I think the kind of testing and evidence that needs to be submitted around new use is a very important question, and one that the select committee will need to spend some time on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EA very good example of this was provided by Mark Ross, the chief executive of Agcarm, who used the example of fodder beet planting, which grew from virtually nothing to around 50,000 hectares last year. This fodder beet was classified as a different crop from fodder brassica, which had been the traditional use of this. Companies needed to do more efficacy and residue trials to register products for fodder beet. This cost more than $100,000 a product because this was for a new use\u2014it was a fodder beet, rather than a fodder brassica.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EFodder beet growers need chemicals to be registered for fodder beet\u2014that just makes sense\u2014otherwise they face having to use products that are registered for forage brassicas off label. This raises real risks around crop residues and residues in meat or milk, and real questions that do need to be addresses and examined. As for the cost of this\u2014if you have a look at a recalled formulation, it might cost $300,000 to reformulate a product for a new use, but it may cost $500,000 for the efficacy trials around getting the evidence required for filing. So these are all important questions that are going to have to be considered by the select committee when it comes to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn her contribution, my colleague Meka Whaitiri spoke about the very low number of submissions that had been included to date in the preliminary work that has led up to this legislation coming to the floor of this House, and I would like to see a greater number of submitters. I would like to hear from a greater number of research organisations in our agribusiness sector to find out where the balance lies for them, as researchers who are looking for the development of innovative products. Does the advantage lie in allowing farmers access to off-protection, moderately priced farm products, or does it lie in our having the ability to protect that for longer? What is best in terms of our ability to innovate in the agribusiness sector? I think that this is a very important consideration, which the committee will need to have when it comes to consider this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the other questions that I would like the committee to explore is, of course, the interface with the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, as to why it is that whenever we are looking at consequential amendments to that Act, we need to proceed with caution, and we need to ensure that the protections that we need are, indeed, in place and that we are not, either inadvertently or by design, opening the door for consequential amendments to things that really might not be desirable to New Zealand. So I think these are real questions at any time, and I note that in this legislation there are going to be consequential amendments to that Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think one of the key questions that was raised in some of the submissions that have already been heard to date was about when Federated Farmers brought up this very much increasing monopoly time period and the offset with the access to these chemicals, and they asked why it is that we cannot just say that consulting with the agribusiness sector is about consulting with the agri-chemicals sector. It needs to be across the supply chain, it needs to be across the sector, and it needs to understand the different parts of it because, of course, there are going to be people who will benefit from these changes. There are people who will do very well because they will get extra periods of monopoly granted under this legislation, but what is the cost of that? Those are all considerations that need to be considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think that there are important considerations and questions that we need to ask. I, for one, am very interested in the question about new use and the innovation that we can do as a country, both to combat some of our greatest environmental problems and to improve the way in which we can potentially use existing products for new uses. For example, what products are already on the market that could be used to reduce nitrate runoff so that we could actually see an improvement in our waterways? In a similar vein, if you are doing stuff to mitigate the nitrate runoff, what products are already there that might actually have the added benefit of decreasing nitrous oxide and, therefore, decreasing our contribution to greenhouse gases? So I think, given the amount of emphasis that, by design, New Zealand has to put into considering how it is that research and development is going to help find our way out of producing 50 percent of our greenhouse gas emissions as a nation, we need to make sure that we have got a regulatory regime that makes it possible for us to innovate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe need to be able to innovate right across our agribusiness sector, but we also have to be working always to ensure that we have the right protections in place\u2014that we have the right protections in place for our environment; that we have the right protections in place for the rest of the sector\u2014and that this is not about the unnecessary gifting of a monopoly to only the part of the supply chain that will benefit. We have to ensure that we have those right across the way. So I think the select committee has a hard job ahead of it and a lot of work to do in terms of making sure that we do have these questions answered adequately. It is a job, I am sure, that it is looking forward to and relishing, with its first piece of legislation in this term of Parliament. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201509153f2064b6ba4444fba9f5e658fcfa2200000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"