"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224923657a99364209be92da9f5ccb107b\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 21 JUNE 2017\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002232c3f2954c5e4b9fa6b37fd794cfef91\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 21 JUNE 2017\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221757aab2a6ef41b5b36d0c5ff516103c\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5082bab464c471990e9ecb01cbde7da\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ac835e96ef7456aaa574a107e37a0b9\u0022\u003ETodd Barclay\u2014Southland Electorate Office Allegations, Police Investigation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a288783c6fa948bc9e2dfc5c3425dce9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a288783c6fa948bc9e2dfc5c3425dce9\u0022\u003EJAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Has she, or the former Minister of Police, been briefed by Police about any political interference or obstruction of justice in the Police investigation into allegations that MP Todd Barclay recorded a private conversation at his electorate office; if so, when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022eccdace2b1a94013bdb48fcb85f67586\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eccdace2b1a94013bdb48fcb85f67586\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E No, and I have spoken to the immediate former Minister of Police, and she had no briefings, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bf1362f737f431683580a6270631382\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Have police briefed her about any instances where Bill English discouraged police from publicly releasing his statement or text messages regarding the allegations against Todd Barclay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1122df3477548d9849a2abbf112c682\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No, and the statutory independence of the Commissioner of Police from Ministers is clearly laid out in section 2 of the Policing Act 2008\u2014so, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221951f4da861c49f4808edbefd49e9660\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that if they were asked to do so by the then Deputy Prime Minister, Bill English, police would have had little choice other than to withhold the statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1cd5ee1e3004865a8ad539ea088fa3c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I do not deal with hypothetical or speculative questions like that. At the end of the day, the police commissioner is independent, and I respect that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022178586512e44495f847cd5026884411e\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Can she explain why police did not serve Todd Barclay with a search warrant after Bill English told police that he knew that Todd Barclay had recorded his staff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0718ed5cf3e4b7fb6038da049f5425d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In so far as there may be ministerial responsibility, the Hon Paula Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaf6ec72a1e349b1bba48142ce634229\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No, I cannot, because I have no responsibility for that whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220381ebc53a0642b2bb56cc8e317cfbbb\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Can she explain why police decided that there was not sufficient evidence to issue a search warrant for a National MP\u2014Todd Barclay\u2014when he recorded his staff members\u2019 conversations, but when journalist Bradley Ambrose recorded former Prime Minister John Key\u2019s conversation, police chose to raid the offices of TVNZ, TV3, and the Herald on Sunday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022756054b275dd44df994a68dc4b0bd61d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think there is a point where a Minister clearly has absolutely no responsibility, and that is, I would submit, this question right now. It is entirely out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022443c762c436145a983baa40ce5485d42\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I have listened to the question, and the essence of the question to me is that, as Minister of Police, can she explain why the police did not take a particular course of action. To me, that is a legitimate question to ask the Minister. It is a relatively easy one for the Minister to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aa8004c56fc45c4ab11b6038ebf236c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No, because the police commissioner and the police have statutory independence, and a Minister\u2014it is not appropriate for them to be involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e45acf6a0cdc4133a3c0e7661cbae9bf\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Has she or any other Minister, including Bill English, had conversations with police about allegations that a National Party board member politically interfered by threatening Glenys Dickson\u2019s family over her complaints against Todd Barclay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c418db48390a4c9cb5764e5b33e95622\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I can only speak in my capacity as the Minister of Police, and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2678ac4a9554dfc818454bc4358d66f\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Has she or any other Minister, including Bill English, discouraged police from investigating the allegations that a National Party board member threatened Glenys Dickson and encouraged her to drop the complaint against Todd Barclay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022898cb6fc8d61435f87e3c33e2366a8ff\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister of Police\u2014the police have statutory independence. I know of no such incident, so, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebb0593c312b4ab3bdf176e27900235e\u0022\u003EJames Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Does she expect New Zealanders to believe that police have not been influenced in their investigations by senior National Party figures, including the now Prime Minister, Bill English, who would rather the whole affair just went away?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac6df1269af4783a1824134ea8316b7\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do, because the police are independent, and the statutory independence of the police commissioner from Ministers is clearly laid out in section 2 of the Policing Act 2008. I kind of find it offensive to police, his insinuations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202a39522c7f4415c8403911f5fa68fc1\u0022\u003EBudget 2017\u2014Social Investment Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022 data-id=\u002259540d2fefc84029812de31c8784a53c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259540d2fefc84029812de31c8784a53c\u0022\u003EJONO NAYLOR (National):\u003C/span\u003E My question is to the Minister of Finance. How did Budget 2017 support social investment\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022aae2a22b015d4c74b9afaaa6708775ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aae2a22b015d4c74b9afaaa6708775ba\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! There is a fair bit of interjection coming both from my right and my left. I invite the member to start that question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022 data-id=\u00226d34bbde1c904a4282c73e7687e2cac9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d34bbde1c904a4282c73e7687e2cac9\u0022\u003EJONO NAYLOR (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: How did Budget 2017 support social investment initiatives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022961c3dac98aa4f428b4228a3aa1ce562\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022961c3dac98aa4f428b4228a3aa1ce562\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (Minister of Justice) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Finance: Budget 2017 provided a $321 million social investment package with 14 initiatives designed to help our most vulnerable improve their circumstances. From reducing youth offending to contraceptive access for low-income women, we are funding high-quality social investment initiatives that evidence shows will help make a difference in the lives of target groups of New Zealanders. This social investment package means we can target integrated services at those individuals, families, and communities who face the highest long-term social and economic costs. We want to get in earlier with the right interventions to help change their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eae0d1ace2445a19baf2e641359b153\u0022\u003EJono Naylor\u003C/span\u003E: How were these initiatives assessed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d76528fedf7452797a7eb3111aea9d1\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Budget 2017 included the most rigorous investment criteria we have used for social bids, to ensure funding went to proposals with the strongest evidence base that will deliver long-run benefits for vulnerable people and for taxpayers. The funded initiatives are about supporting better cross-agency ways to target some ingrained and complex social issues. They are based on a citizen-centred approach and judged against a whole-of-life understanding of cost and benefit. The bids were assessed against the case for change, value for money, and effectiveness in delivering results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225634618f-04f4-4f2c-a4bb-6ec0edeb2bf5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222da55075c31b418db22c2ab2fd36ab06\u0022\u003EJono Naylor\u003C/span\u003E: How does social investment improve lives and reduce costs to taxpayers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022519c4d21187f4d3d98eb9db6998bc254\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is supporting\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022146c9ea078224dacb5df0a3cfd25a9fa\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am having trouble hearing the answer. There is one particular member who has not stopped interjecting since question time started. I will not name him, but he knows who I am talking about, and if he continues with that amount of interjection, I will have to ask him to leave. The Hon Amy Adams, to start that answer again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224264b3e5b0094afe9d1de0a625d34d19\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is supporting social investment because intervening earlier and more effectively is the best chance to change the lives of New Zealanders with some of the most complex and ingrained challenges. However, it is also about reducing the long-term cost to taxpayers by supporting people to lead productive and more independent lives. A good example of this is the social investment approach to welfare, which has already lead to a $4.1 billion reduction in welfare liability since mid-2014.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bff0d17036454f80b0f1cd6a36387ff1\u0022\u003ETodd Barclay\u2014Southland Electorate Office Allegations, Ministerial Conduct\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00222b9eefa472dc46da8be5d08f19dfbfe0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b9eefa472dc46da8be5d08f19dfbfe0\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his answers during Oral Question No. 2 yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7e1a654bdaf4bf89cf1453e7e2ababf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7e1a654bdaf4bf89cf1453e7e2ababf\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022809286bc180b4719823f9f7cfcf813a5\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Is it an acceptable moral standard for a former finance Minister to say on Radio New Zealand on 1 March 2016 that he was not aware of any specific problems between Mr Barclay and his former staff, when, in fact, he was aware that Todd Barclay had recorded Glenys Dickson?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a50ff7b24504c1b9086bec13de191d8\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Speaker\u2019s ruling 173/2 is quite clear that the Prime Minister has got no responsibility for a member of the caucus\u2014a ruling by your good self. I would suggest here that is exactly where we are going with this question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e6e49adcb51492aa085f45952a8a4a0\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I have two points to make. The first is that these matters were indeed traversed in question No. 2 yesterday, hence why it is a supplementary question that Mr Little has asked. Secondly, the first words of Mr Little\u2019s question were about acceptable standards for Ministers. The Prime Minister is responsible for that. He gave an illustrative example of a behaviour of a Minister, and I believe that question is in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb109427192d4593890e3ff094c6777e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to invite the member to ask the question again, but my first inclination, as I heard the question, is that because it was asking the Prime Minister a question in his former ministerial role as a Minister of Finance around radio comments, the question is in order. The question can be asked again. I will listen again very, very carefully and allow it to proceed if I determine it is indeed in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228118ce1c71ff4adf8ac41e8397e802b6\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Is it an acceptable moral standard for the former finance Minister to say on Radio New Zealand on 1 March 2016 that he was not aware of any specific problems between Mr Barclay and his former staff, when, in fact, he was aware that Todd Barclay had recorded Glenys Dickson?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d41404fe2df84711b8553a1a76b242eb\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: At the time the matter was under investigation and, in fact, the facts of it had not been established. Some of them were covered by a confidential employment settlement to which I was not a party and they were under investigation by the police, and at the time I was not sure what I could or could not say about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022776294dc3d964c40a9d998bfa6089f2a\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: When Prime Minister John Key said on Radio New Zealand on 7 March 2016 that he had had \u201Ca bit of a discussion with Bill\u201D, did the former finance Minister tell the then Prime Minister that Todd Barclay had been recording his staff\u2019s conversations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc006aeed2f84e13958f511ee68b16a2\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think the issue here is that I accept that the Opposition leader is dressing these questions up as being about the former Minister of Finance and so on, but what is quite clear is that the Prime Minister, the former Minister of Finance, was answering these questions on radio as the former member for an electorate. He is not responsible, therefore, as Prime Minister or as the former Minister of Finance for these matters. It is quite clear in terms of the Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 rulings that he should not be answering those questions, therefore, on a non-ministerial basis nor should he be speaking or answering questions about a member of the caucus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0a2fe9359c7461cb20b6d1c93b65df7\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure whether the Leader of the House heard the question correctly. The question asked about a statement the Prime Minister made. The current Prime Minister is responsible in this House for those questions. It was about something the Prime Minister said, and it is a legitimate topic for these questions to be asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c501b03640243a9ab0271d67813064b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I am going to ask the member to repeat the question. The question, as I understood it, is very much around ministerial responsibility. Mr Bridges raises the possibility that the question was answered in the Prime Minister\u2019s capacity as a former member of that electorate. That is possibly the case but I doubt it. He was on Radio New Zealand, I would think, because he was, then, the Minister of Finance. The question can be asked again. [Interruption] Order! I have called Andrew Little to ask his supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d03f5b36cb14dbc8834613cac700ba0\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: When Prime Minister John Key said on Radio New Zealand on 7 March 2016 that he had had \u201Ca bit of a discussion with Bill\u201D, did the former finance Minister tell the then Prime Minister that Todd Barclay had been recording the staff\u2019s conversations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226574adb9e5af48b28ec6342f39828f64\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure I would have talked to the former Prime Minister about matters that were relevant to the management of the caucus, but I cannot recall either the discussion or the content of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7b152bc2f5b48958f2c88b485a189aa\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, and given that, according to the former Prime Minister, former finance Minister Bill English \u201Cjust said a couple of his former staff members had left. That was it.\u201D, is it acceptable that he covered up this incident from the Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed4480ea995847ea866c40efb528b231\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I come back to it, because now what you have had is a reference to his former staff members. They were his staff members in his capacity as a local member of Parliament. The Speakers\u2019 rulings are incredibly clear in regard to that. They are not in a ministerial capacity, and he is not responsible for what he did as a former member for an electorate. It is quite clear he does not have responsibility for that as Prime Minister of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221048bf1734cd4eb7bd0823855923cfda\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On this occasion, I do not agree with the member. The question, to me, is about the actions of a former Minister of Finance talking to the then Prime Minister. That is in a prime ministerial capacity; the Prime Minister has responsibility. The question will be asked again by Andrew Little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291cfd6464a9e4ed3880e15cfaa25f0df\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, and given that, according to the former Prime Minister, former Finance Minister Bill English \u201Cjust said a couple of his former staff members had left. That was it.\u201D, is it acceptable that he covered up this incident from the Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271c3b44829d7468baecfbe9bcff42b12\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Allegations of a cover-up are ridiculous. The statements made to me regarding this were reported to the relevant party official\u2014that is on the record\u2014and then to the police. It is a weird world when the Labour Party says that reporting a matter to the police is a cover-up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252217d3f982a48c797578925efb4b220\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer and what the former finance Minister knew throughout last year, and that at times another MP was making statements that, to his knowledge, were incorrect, did he not do anything to ensure that the law was properly observed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ebb063295464dbf9cb7bd4591edf77c\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I participated in a police investigation, and made a statement about the limited knowledge that I had. The police investigated; you would have to talk to them about what they did, how they did it, and what they established. That is a matter for them, and the same matters were actually canvassed extensively in the media. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8975611424f407b8578f88fa54f3172\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Before I call the member, I do not want continued interjection from Mr Grant Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022878a6fd9df234e1a9e52fb36052214f7\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Is it an acceptable standard for a Minister to be aware that a public figure is lying and to cover that up for 18 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5367315a74d450ca22c46eeaef664c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I simply do not accept the member\u2019s assertion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e021780ae54e42aabfd1443e12464a58\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Given his statement yesterday that it would not be acceptable behaviour to illegally record a staff member and his police statement that Todd Barclay did record Glenys Dickson, is it the Prime Minister\u2019s view that Todd Barclay acted illegally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286c33307c5ee431aa8df74ff8241b40c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! No. That question is definitely out of order. The Prime Minister does not have a prime ministerial responsibility for a member of caucus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022641096945d4a44b389d9c5b881b07ae2\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Why did a member of his office tell several journalists yesterday that what Glenys Dickson had told police did not stack up, when his own police statement shows that her account does stack up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226408678c5b2c46fa9152ef6972ef63e5\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have no knowledge of that particular assertion, but the police had many months of investigation of these matters, and the member is free to ask them what they thought about it. I answered the questions I was asked by the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5f7b548e8574e70b9fc4259edcaeb10\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware of whether former finance Minister Bill English requested that police withhold his police statement from the Official Information Act responses about the Todd Barclay investigation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb6719b175864194b34cd10c4943ab28\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I understand there has been an Official Information Act process. I was aware of it. I did not really take part in it. My statement is in the public arena, and I think it contradicts directly the member\u2019s assertion of a cover-up. I answered the questions to the police with the knowledge that I had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254993b2165f94f8a89717b20246fd465\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Given the police statement that\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228565002b28224aa0935fc9f7e6d7ad03\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Again, please, less interjection from one particular quarter. Andrew Little is to start the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022858d317652264879983838db0335ed12\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Given the police statement that \u201CPolice consulted those individuals who provided statements as part of the investigation. The redacted file that was released took into account the views of the individuals consulted.\u201D, why did he ask for his police statement to be withheld?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229623f34a8f554bc3bcc50b83cb08a652\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I appreciate we have discussed this issue now in points of order, but what we have got here is questioning about a police statement that was made by a former electorate member of Parliament. It has to have been, because it was as the electorate member of Parliament that the Prime Minister had the information in the statement. It is quite clear in those Standing Orders and the rulings that I outlined to you earlier that in that regard, therefore, he is not responsible for them and he should not be answering as Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d547c1288e434302a8ffa3d981c2c630\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: The police statement specifically identifies Mr English as the Minister of Finance. The police statement was given as the Minister of Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4fd1f007c454dcc9f20c8adb42c1bd0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I am not convinced by the point raised by Grant Robertson. I am going to ask for the question to be repeated\u2014or I invite the member to change the question. As I listen to it a second time, I suspect on this occasion the Hon Simon Bridges is absolutely right in that the police statement would not have been given as an official prime ministerial or ministerial statement. I will listen carefully to the question, but unless it has changed, it is unlikely to meet the test of my allowing it to be put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220b58a8ff33e409d9b8fa25d32a126c9\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There are two points I want to make. The first is that yesterday we had a number of discussions and questions around the police statement. The Prime Minister has answered questions around the police statement just now. Just moments ago he contested Mr Little\u2019s view about the police statement. I reiterate: he identified himself in that police statement as the Minister of Finance. It is legitimate, if only as a follow-up to previous supplementary questions, for Mr Little to be able to ask that question today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aec9e43c66f4b6f8713622c4e6a8d91\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I think the difference, Mr Speaker, is that right now what we have from the Leader of the Opposition is questions in regard to the information in that statement, and that information came to the Prime Minister not as Prime Minister but as the former member of Parliament for Clutha-Southland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef2ac58995874b9d855d0d4e5404b50e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217fa895f50f94cfeaf4269919259fccc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I need no further assistance. It is time to move forward. The Clerk has now handed me a copy, actually, of the statement. In it Mr English is asked what his occupation is, and he says he is a member of Parliament and the Minister of Finance. That does not mean to say that he continues to make a statement in a ministerial capacity. If the member wishes to change his question, that would be the wisest way forward, but if he wants to place it again and let me make a very definitive decision, I give him that option.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7f1f8ab07e94bcdaff234d2aa95e92b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not want to appear to be relitigating, but there is an additional point, and that is that the decision to withhold the statement was the police\u2019s, and the question is whether it would take more notice of the view of the Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022262132fa993e49fbafbd473ab59226d3\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fb721ca2ce242bdab5a7ec918b8e3c6\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Prime Minister interjects, but it is a matter that has, really, two points. One is whether or not the police would take more notice of the Prime Minister\u2019s request than any individual\u2019s request. The second point is whether any ministerial staff whatsoever were involved in the communication, because if they were involved in the communication, it then squarely has to be answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022affdd341750a48978e1e3a79f06642af\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbe7ee6ce15842b589d305d0174c5619\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not need any further assistance. That does not really help the position at all. Whether police would be more influenced by a Prime Minister or somebody else I have no idea. That is over to the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ae3b706985a410db2f62d9bdc5286fb\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the most recent answer the Prime Minister has just given, and given the police statement that quotes \u201CPolice consulted those individuals who provided statements as part of the investigation. The redacted file that was released took into account the view of the individuals consulted.\u201D, does he accept that it is acceptable ministerial conduct that he requests his police statement to be withheld?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c88df7e3e3cf480fba5c2bc7ac51b12d\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure that all discussions were conducted consistent with the Official Information Act, and the police, in the end, have statutory independence. In addition to that, like any other agency, it makes the decisions about what information it releases, taking into account whatever factors it thinks are relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276f44c497c4440b2844402a0d5b751ac\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders place any trust in him as Prime Minister, given he has told media things that are untrue about his contact with Glenys Dickson, told media things that are untrue about his knowledge of Todd Barclay\u2019s actions, and consistently failed the moral standards that New Zealanders expect of their elected leaders? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022842e2f125c094fe6901cd8697d69fea6\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I simply disagree. The confidentiality of the original discussions had to be respected. It would be a breach of the law to breach those. Then it was a matter that was subject to police investigation, and I participated in that investigation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c976be8ab694642a701feb897eaf2e0\u0022\u003ETodd Barclay\u2014Southland Electorate Office Allegations, Prime Ministerial Conduct\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002239e0586fa9ef46b6b9f28b69a0d30350\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239e0586fa9ef46b6b9f28b69a0d30350\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements even if facts known to him make doing so extraordinarily difficult; if so, how?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00229a900698d9e74a6f9a1edcb531d34d40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a900698d9e74a6f9a1edcb531d34d40\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do stand by all my statements in the context they were given, with the information that was available at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e9dd84a662741fb9ca96029812e35ec\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well if that is remotely true, when he was asked by the media about Todd McClay MP\u2019s actions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcdf5e24e5b84ad289a588764bb5b7d1\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Todd McClay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204dcbf441dbb4057a878bd2d66707d63\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Todd Barclay. [Interruption] What a terrible relief!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226ff65bd759f43f3b858ce2f0250c486\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! All members make the occasional mistake. I will allow the question to start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280b5e519471748efa6fa1a6be7632995\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I have no doubt Todd McClay knew as well, but anyway. Ha, ha! When he was asked by the media about Todd Barclay MP\u2019s actions, and against the now Prime Minister\u2019s statement to the police in April 2016, why yesterday, when he was first questioned by the media, did he simply not tell the truth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224659506147d347d7897669e372ecb470\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: As I explained just before\u2014and, actually, yesterday, at the time I was asked that question yesterday morning\u2014I was asked about a statement that was made, I think, some 12 or 15 months ago. I had not checked that statement, and as soon as I did check it to see what I had said, I made it public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d18073e5a16a4f9cb9725b5bd30001b5\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: He can\u2019t even remember yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcc95ba1a4624e22a893de9cb4d9627b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can remember you. Ha, ha! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022381946edce3f416ebe7fee3ea88069da\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! There is a level of interjection coming from all quarters that must cease so that I can hear the question from the Rt Hon Winston Peters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec3748542d5c4936bfdaba7e364f1a42\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does it not make sense to sack someone who has breached professional standards and broken the law, as soon as that is known to the leadership of a party; if so, why did it take him so long to get some guts and do just that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c3e297efed14609ba714f8a5c23dcbf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That question is not in order. There is no prime ministerial responsibility as the leader of a party, and I refer the member to Speakers\u2019 rulings 172 and 173 , which I quoted yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222742c6d171294996b7021ff04efd888c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not a fact that he deliberately did not tell the truth when first questioned yesterday because he himself was deeply complicit in trying to avoid legal action, with taxpayers\u2019 hush money, and he knew full well that a confidential agreement or contract to cover up a crime is an illegal contract? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226b72df6deb641f08c611f17622c40b5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The right honourable Prime Minister, in so far as there is prime ministerial responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e30725ff47864c93aad21a1fa44b10ac\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No. The employment dispute is between the employer and the employee. I was absolutely no party to that, and I do not know what the dispute was or how it was settled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7267aff7a804e9cbd41ed8da7b69e2e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: When the chronology of events and the communications have his DNA all over this story, including the cover-up and the hush money, how can anyone possibly trust him on these matters or, for that matter, on the economy, about which he speaks so much spin?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220bded5e9ac74acd9c6d518f9e364102\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I can only repeat what I have said to the member. There was an employment dispute that was settled between the employer and the employee. I was no party to that dispute or the settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c13befd6a144cf3ad07b9418bd0cea5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: When it is clear to every independent commentator that this Prime Minister is complicit in a cover-up, why does he not resign? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e40faed92de4d3788723134d7ad5477\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The Prime Minister can proceed to answer that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc46755bc2224b2798cb47ad07bb4db1\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I simply reject the member\u2019s assertions. The fact that he wants to keep on saying it does not make it true. I made\u2014[Interruption] My statement to the police stated what I knew of the circumstances, and I would have thought that making the statement to the police was not a cover-up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022573860af3d154fcd9bb6a706b4d5b5d1\u0022\u003ETransport Infrastructure, Auckland\u2014Waterview Connection\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022 data-id=\u0022c97f173760804ae19cd188f0484fda15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c97f173760804ae19cd188f0484fda15\u0022\u003EDr JIAN YANG (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: How many people were involved in the construction of the Waterview tunnels in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d86a9591f30844109622254141de8c06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d86a9591f30844109622254141de8c06\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Around 11,000 people were employed during a 5-year period at over three different worksites during construction of the Waterview tunnels. Construction began on the project in 2012 with Alice, the tunnel-boring machine, excavating enough dirt to fill 320 Olympic-sized swimming pools. Twenty-four thousand concrete segments to line both 2.4 kilometre tunnels have been installed, along with 400 kilometres of cabling and wiring. The end product is a world-class piece of infrastructure that will deliver the biggest change in Auckland\u2019s transport system since the opening of the Auckland Harbour Bridge in 1959.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eb9985e3d3b45f6ad8ddfb689ef1c23\u0022\u003EDr Jian Yang\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on the expected wider economic benefits of the Waterview tunnels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022242db0bbeda247c8941d0d43ae837e12\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: When the tunnels open very soon they will provide more options for Aucklanders travelling around the city, particularly between the west and the south. The new connection will also provide more efficient links to and from Auckland Airport, Ports of Auckland, and inland freight hubs, reducing costs for people and businesses not only in Auckland but throughout the country. The estimated wider economic benefits of all of this are estimated to be worth $430 million, to improve productivity and reduce travel time and also include the creation of more than 18,000 jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caaadea65e54456699c5818263295665\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the member\u2014and I apologise\u2014I say to Darroch Ball and Fletcher Tabuteau that I have warned them once about their level of interjection, but it has continued. If either of them interjects again during the balance of question time, I will be asking them to leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f84a80feb2534105873e9ef91ffabd74\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does such a large number of people being required to build one tunnel point to low productivity in the New Zealand construction sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230224ac35bc042ed89e690f95d3615e1\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: No. It refers to a massive project, the biggest we have ever seen in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc96110f0d84e5da50bc7ddd0d61d61\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that increasing vehicle occupancy rates would increase the productivity of New Zealand roads, such as the Waterview tunnel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e2ad111b6b345539155d93e05cd376e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and that is why the Land Transport Amendment Bill (No 2) is making its way merrily through the House and will be in the Committee of the whole House, I think, later on today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202698108b19b4c4cb77eba5996ee9dd5\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Land Transport Amendment Bill (No 2) help increase vehicle occupancy rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0dfce2cf9e540188bb9651200b872c8\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: By providing a legal and fair playing field for ride sharing, carpooling, and all of the new kinds of technological innovations we are seeing in the small - passenger service space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e525fa02fb304b9aa402c70b93e65d4a\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister had any discussions with any other political parties about including new legislative initiatives in the bill he mentioned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba2c091fd60a48ee93613a83ccbd84ed\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I know that the member is a vigorous proponent of really enabling ride sharing and better occupancy of vehicles. The discussions between him and me have been very fruitful in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc38a4c0e8364977bef30f17cc77d29c\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Given the fruitfulness of those discussions, why has the Minister declined to include any of the matters discussed in the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dfe4db2fd17408e90f84450da1d82e1\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I am still thinking it all through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6d42e1123844ffb908449dc4d1ae9a5\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022080689dd031c4629a6eadc2d816a9cbc\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b989107ef4f4ee0b2f18d7b4dcf61a4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Can I just rule first\u2014the member has used his supplementary questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6c5be80dc494c2b9fefab2c6511c8e0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: That was certainly going to be my point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f43d7734624342ee963399a85948709b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is very perceptive of you, but it is actually not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223756eab5d4a94609992ac82097295d50\u0022\u003EChild Poverty\u2014Unicef Report, Measurement, and Definition\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00222257a5b0ffaf473fb156a1e03bb217b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222257a5b0ffaf473fb156a1e03bb217b2\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Is it acceptable that New Zealand has been ranked 34th out of 41 high-income OECD countries for child well-being in the UNICEF report - Building the Future: Children and the Sustainable Development Goals in Rich Countries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cd3d9a5e482485aa6724f54ea7b21d1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the Minister, my office was advised that this answer may be longer than normal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00227d060821266b4b6c91dcbe8ba4f0b1ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d060821266b4b6c91dcbe8ba4f0b1ba\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Whilst in relation to this report, I have ministerial responsibility only for the indicators of child poverty and child abuse in goals 1 and 16, and not the well-being of all children, I have no responsibility or control over how UNICEF determines its rankings. But I would note that the report itself states that it is limited by the lack of comparable data in some domains, and \u201CThe Report Card cannot provide an in-depth analysis of the reasons behind differences,\u201D. However, this Government is absolutely committed to child well-being, which is why we have increased childcare support for low-income families; increased benefit rates for families with children, for the first time in 40 years; increased Working for Families for low-income working families; and introduced a $2 billion-a-year Family Incomes Package in Budget 2017, which will lift families\u2019 incomes by an average of $26 a week and reduce by 50,000 the number of children living in families receiving less than half the median income. We have introduced free doctors visits and prescriptions for children under 13, extended paid parental leave, and increased parental tax credits\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dff18c4502664316aafe38b5d2a9c282\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Bring the answer to a conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227312e2846ab342d6b4aee562fe0d3ec1\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014as well as helping to serve an average of 125,000 KickStart Breakfasts a week to schoolchildren across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290332ebb2f3b4db5bfd6aebd7509684d\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she state yesterday that \u201Cit is simply not possible to measure poverty\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8670fec29d549e6afb6905ffede53b4\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think that characterises my answer. I was talking about a single measure of poverty. I recall explaining that hardship and poverty are on a spectrum, that we use multilevel multimeasures, and that there was no country that I was aware of that had successfully used one measure to measure poverty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222308ed7d26d24c02b178b82406442171\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: When her Government signed up to the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and pledged to halve poverty according to national definitions, what was her national definition?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207c926465a54454388ff34cd5aeb1c08\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I can respond only with my ministerial responsibilities, but I am aware, and I have stated in this House before, that a whole-of-Government, cross-Government group is working on how we define those goals. There are a number of them\u201416. The group does not have to report until 2030, and the countries have to report twice between signing and 2030.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242f35fab5e2c4e1b9e39413841dcfc68\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Is New Zealand on track to halve poverty by 2030, as her Government has pledged to do, when she cannot even tell this House what poverty is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206329f3646074722a2ec8705b323c6a5\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: We do not have to define it any more than is done on an annual basis by the Ministry of Social Development over a number of measures. Whether it is by income, whether it is by household income before and after housing, or whether it is by hardship, this Government\u2014and the previous Government\u2014probably has some of the best data to get underneath the causes of poverty. As I said in the House yesterday, we are using those measures consistently, over Budgets, as the economy grows and gives us the ability to invest back into our low-income households to help those children and those families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022931e27298b95415dbf09e95d763ce273\u0022\u003EJan Logie\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Minister embarrassed to read about New Zealand being singled out in the UNICEF report as \u201Cproof that high national income alone is no guarantee of a good record in sustaining child well-being;\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b98b85bb837a46c8a7f5d3f6d9379787\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The difficulty with the UNICEF report is that it does rely, in its conclusions, on a number of measures that New Zealand was not able to provide data for. New Zealand was not the only country in some of those measures. In fact, one of the measures that were used, I am aware, was developed only for the EU. So that means that countries like Australia, the USA, New Zealand, and a myriad of others outside of Europe were not able to comply with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa73d00851be4088b7a03b90fb8b41e7\u0022\u003EJan Logie\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a very specific question in relation to a quote in that report about high national incomes and poor outcomes for children. The Minister just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a57e2515f9dc47cd9c317221a9054ae3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question was very much an opinion question: would the Minister be embarrassed by such a statistic? The question was addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283b0625ea233445897f5c7748a584664\u0022\u003EJan Logie\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister spends all this effort on defending the poor outcomes for our children, is she seriously saying that this is as good as it gets; if so, where is her aspiration for our children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8dcff6994204e148d8af36a5f5e9f2c\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: This Government does not rest, and has not rested, and Budget 2017 showed exactly that, with a $2 billion investment in those families on the lowest incomes. We will continue with the myriad of policies and programmes that we have put in place, but they are guided by the tremendous data that this Government has\u2014that this country has\u2014to get underneath the drivers of poverty. It is not enough just to talk about it; this Government is doing something about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b759ca03172a408aad0d56929d68d05b\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: As part of the sustainable development poverty goals, what is she halving by 2030?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229189f7d3a37d407d9687c81b7e58a7dc\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am one Minister of a number of Ministers who have responsibility for this sustainability goal. As I said, there is a cross-Government working group looking to define what that will look like. But, in the poverty area, there will not be one simple measure. There cannot be, because poverty cannot be defined by that. There will be a number of measures by which we will define it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220287c4934f394c42861d1fd74005301e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5 to Minister\u2014Amended Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u002235fa0023eb1e445ca78f46b9e566416f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235fa0023eb1e445ca78f46b9e566416f\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to correct an answer that I gave to question No. 5. I said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2788f5dc6e6479ebf018635244bbbad\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I need to put the leave. Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b432a1cdb474b1c9c418458bdb6fba5\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I said that the Land Transport Amendment Bill (No 2) is up later today. That is not the case. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284dbd9b4eeac43fcb9cc485ff4b3cca0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! There will be substantially less interjection, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b800fd109b949d7a211cfe8409f0633\u0022\u003EFuji Xerox\u2014Fraud Allegations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002226f4d39cd7e94d8cae2a86a6c9af0dfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226f4d39cd7e94d8cae2a86a6c9af0dfc\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, in respect of a matter I raised, you referred to \u201CThe External Reporting Board has not taken any action over the allegations, because it does not provide auditing and assurance services.\u201D Mr Speaker, I am concerned about that because that External Reporting Board is the Crown agency that sets auditing assurance and accounting standards. That is what makes it relevant, and I want you to reconsider that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea93b723bb8f4705bfc00e83c4cf1bb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea93b723bb8f4705bfc00e83c4cf1bb1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That was an application yesterday for a snap debate. I made a decision on it. I am very happy to discuss with the member the reasons I gave, at any time he wishes to call by. Does the member now wish to proceed with question No. 7?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef78b4de64b542b1b2a42ce8e38996a5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll drop you a line. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d651331e237849a2b54d8a2f4b2cb8b6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will look forward to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00225ba5f35812a041ed9cffe48a7024d908\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ba5f35812a041ed9cffe48a7024d908\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Before making a statement, does he check all the facts; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea90d4adc0114a2e876acbd9522dea19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea90d4adc0114a2e876acbd9522dea19\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E To the best of my ability, but, as I pointed out to the member yesterday, I am often asked about topics where there has not been that opportunity. I try to check the facts as soon as I can, and say at the time that I am going to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247f65802312246778e3cf057f29766f7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If \u201Cthere are certainly problems with Fuji Xerox \u2026\u201D\u2014his words\u2014then what investigations is he ordering into Peter Thomas, the former head of all-of-Government procurement at the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, who jumped ship to Fuji Xerox in 2015 and secured contracts from the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022527a0d5eebae458190bb0dd9c84d380e\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised by my colleague that there was a thorough investigation of that and no issues came to light. But, of course, if there was any new evidence of anything that looked like inappropriate or fraudulent behaviour, then of course the Government would investigate it\u2014sorry, the appropriate agency would investigate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b06fcd87fa1414abff2f0687d2ec6b4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If there are \u201Ccertainly problems with Fuji Xerox \u2026 financial reporting,\u201D what is he doing to investigate Fuji Xerox managing director Gavin Pollard, who on 23 December enthused over getting the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) all-clear, but 4 months before Fujifilm Japan found an initial $285 million fraud, and now, again, the SFO is reopening inquiries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a80554d95614d629cb37aed11ef9733\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The right honourable Prime Minister, in so far as there is prime ministerial responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249825a8f4cca4ced928c0a1c23e20537\u0022\u003ERt Hon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I am not familiar with any of the detail that the member mentions, but if he has material that has not been presented to the appropriate authorities then I suggest that he do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f4080ee84044916861c0845205a447b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If it is all over the international business press, and if \u201CMr Fix-it\u201D and his mini-me, \u201CWhere\u2019s My Bridges\u201D, missed $500 million of fraud\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da827bb878fe453e9a7228a4c45475fc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I do not need that part in the question at all. The member will ask his question without that sort of opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5dba2f6f4b04857903235319d03d0c1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If it is all over the international business press, and if Mr Joyce and Mr Simon Bridges missed $500 million of fraud, will he at least promise taxpayers that he will investigate Neil Whittaker, known as the Bernie Madoff of copiers, or Dean Murray, the \u201CWolf of Carlton Gore Road\u201D, or David Monnery, also known as \u201CThe Agent\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9346fec5376426f88c8051068c79281\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am not going to allow that question. There is just too much imputation and opinion in that question. I call question No. 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e2ab8a7df1c405a896de25791acf822\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am willing to walk outside this House and say that. It is not imputation. There is a series of crimes that have been committed here, and I am trying to get some accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222010ee6825aa479a851f4e85ad97d852\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member is welcome to step outside and say what he likes. It does not worry me. I have looked\u2014[Interuption] Order! I have ruled the question out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa8e64bb31b3476b902760632c4e8cd4\u0022\u003EPrimary Industries, Ministry\u2014Situation and Outlook for Primary Industries Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223d8e02518e824cc7b1e88e856efec421\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d8e02518e824cc7b1e88e856efec421\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Primary Industries: What reports has he received on the positive outlook for primary sector exports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022686c73cf4fb4478c8f358a58c9a14a23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022686c73cf4fb4478c8f358a58c9a14a23\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister for Primary Industries):\u003C/span\u003E The Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) has just released its Situation and Outlook for Primary Industries at the National Fieldays. MPI is forecasting that the primary sector exports will grow to $41.6 billion in the year to June 2018. This is an increase of 9.1 percent and would be the highest level ever. Dairy, forestry, and horticulture will lead the charge for this growth. New market opportunities and diversification into higher-value products such as chilled meat into China, retail-ready products, and nutraceuticals will help to further increase the value of our primary sector exports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff498b83e0d04728b1c89ec18469849d\u0022\u003EBarbara Kuriger\u003C/span\u003E: What was the primary sector\u2019s reception to the launch of this document at this year\u2019s National Fieldays? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258cc0475b94a4be7b3dc9333c29d1774\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: Good question. It was extremely positive. Many farmers and growers have dealt with some very challenging times over the last 12 months, so it was great to feel this real mood of optimism at the Fieldays\u2014133,000 people came through the gates over the 4 days, which was a record. There was a strong sense that many farmers and growers will be looking to use this extra forecast revenue to reinvest in their businesses. Ultimately, this will have flow-on effects into the wider economy\u2014in particular, to those businesses that support our primary sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221caa7f93ec8a46158d65fae244ead050\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the question, I just seek leave to table a summary of that report, which points to a reduction of almost 10 percent in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022516efd7309974fa49f6ed3f87fc1c6bf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The member will resume his seat. That information is publicly available to all members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002289850bf8e2634ef398fa22f9b244e3ac\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014OECD Report and Performance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002289d948bdc4f94cbca3b9150e8d55cb6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289d948bdc4f94cbca3b9150e8d55cb6e\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for question No. 9 to be held over until the Minister of Finance is here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00222dcfe49fb86f4ca79f8e7d45510f777b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dcfe49fb86f4ca79f8e7d45510f777b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022b56f5065cc8443f7ad4b36e14b1d1c16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b56f5065cc8443f7ad4b36e14b1d1c16\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with the OECD report on New Zealand that labour productivity is well below leading OECD countries, restraining living standards and well-being?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u00223bee29e1ae7d4b60811ac280df0f2e65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bee29e1ae7d4b60811ac280df0f2e65\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Associate Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: Improving productivity is a longstanding challenge for New Zealand, which the OECD report notes. The report goes on to say New Zealand recently halted its productivity decline relative to other countries, and the challenge now is to make up lost ground. The Government is tackling this productivity issue with large investments in R \u0026amp; D and skills in recent Budgets. We are seeing big increases in business R \u0026amp; D through our growth grants, and we are now producing a record number of ICT and engineering graduates. Finally, data last week showed we now have the highest level of business investment in plant and machinery in almost 7 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223bfb29bee184274a33f12fc8826aeb9\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What responsibility does he take for the OECD further going on to say that \u201Cincome inequality is above the OECD average,\u201D that our child poverty rate is \u201Cmore than double the rate in the best performing OECD countries.\u201D, and that \u201CLiving standards and economic growth \u2026 vary considerably ethnically and geographically.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d26337f45e44bedb4a22e20cdd9735b\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: We, rightly and proudly, take responsibility for the economic performance of New Zealand, for the fact that it is growing really strongly, and for the fact that we have the second-highest employment in the OECD figures and some of the very lowest unemployment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef4486987c92427e9ffe891b9d77f845\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: But that\u2019s actually not what I asked you about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226aba266b42d14636bf1f7f47fd320ff9\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: And, Mr Robertson, what that means is more people in jobs and, over time, better results for all New Zealanders\u2014inclusive growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9829857032a44c9864391a534f7396f\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Why has he overseen an economy where the export sector is in recession, with exports of goods and services having fallen in real terms for the last three quarters, and where per capita growth has declined for the last two quarters? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225383fdddc4fc444b9d113bef7b9bea59\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I simply do not accept that. Actually, if you look at what is happening, we have a strongly diversifying export sector where, for example, technology has gone from very small to very large\u2014our third-biggest export. In our other sectors, high-value food is coming up very strongly. I think, in light of the global financial crisis, this is a country that is going incredibly well, with growth, with strong employment, with lowering unemployment, and with exports diversifying and going up the value chain quite well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8b2583c3c0f42cea3615f333ed64ed1\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Why under his watch are so many New Zealanders working more and more hours but feel like they are not getting ahead, and can he not see that relying on population growth and an overheated housing market is not actually an economic plan? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225519404fc7144f84a5a0b2c511629325\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, if you look at what is happening in wage growth, it is going up. Actually, it has been higher since 2015 than in the likes of the United States and the EU. We have got a way to go, but, actually, it is growing in a low-inflationary environment, and I think New Zealanders would be pretty pleased by that. Actually, in addition to that, if you think about what we have done through the Budget, as we have got the ability to do that, we have had the Family Incomes Package and so on, which, again, help the New Zealanders who need it most. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b044c91cb86e4a81aa3580d93c5c71bb\u0022\u003EBudget 2017\u2014Auckland Schools, Buildings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002200b353f656604d828d62773030077886\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200b353f656604d828d62773030077886\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education: What recent announcements has the Government made following Budget 2017 on school property in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022b134d580a96e45f2b488ac5653d3fa61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b134d580a96e45f2b488ac5653d3fa61\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to advise the House that Budget 2017 will see a $240 million investment in school property in Auckland. This investment will see four new schools and kura, including a new primary school in Pukekohe\u2014in the member\u2019s electorate\u2014the expansion of Stonefields School, the co-location and rebuild of two special education schools, 170 new and replacement classrooms, and five new special education satellite units.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d62396478ce452892d8a054e94445db\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: How will this investment benefit students in the Auckland region?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a54aa1fecf54bb4b61b91321e9cd458\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: This significant investment will boost capacity in Auckland by providing more learning spaces for students. As a result of the investment by the current Government, Auckland is on track to have an extra 21,000 student places by the year 2021. The $240 million investment announced under Budget 2017 includes funding for kura and special education schools, which reflects the inclusiveness within our education system. I am very confident that the new and replacement schools and classrooms will help to raise student achievement by providing innovative and stimulating learning environments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226fd1573648d84256901f5018ee60adcb\u0022\u003EHealth, Ministry\u2014Performance Improvement Framework Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe8f461b91eb41e7b8e2059f1a2b109a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe8f461b91eb41e7b8e2059f1a2b109a\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Has a recent review of the ministry been undertaken by Paula Rebstock; if so, what were its findings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u00222b0a6f1a07594bff8742038932a16895\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b0a6f1a07594bff8742038932a16895\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E As the State Services Commissioner has said today: \u201CSSC started working with the Ministry of Health on a scheduled PIF review in February this year. The review is currently in progress and the review report is in the process of being drafted. Once the review report is completed, it will be published on the SSC website. This is expected to happen in the next few months.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c59419df6814c58b8fa887f1672182a\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: How long has the Minister had a version of the report, and how long does he expect to sit on it before it is released?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbf01942d08f4d6f8b41893c7e109649\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I have been quite clear, quoting directly the State Services Commissioner, that the report has not been completed and is still in the process of being written, so I think this question is rather premature. I would be happy to answer the question when the report is released, as the State Services Commissioner says, in the next few months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9990987c2e14d41abae6982323adf4c\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen a draft of the report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c631781640b5482586898fae886d836f\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I think the member needs to remember that this is the State Services Commissioner\u2019s report. The report is not complete\u2014as he said very explicitly, the final report is months away. It is still in the process of being written.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254c62d598c19401eadff2dcc3a7cc39b\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208cb72bbf8a64f328de0973e5c31af04\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can imagine what it is. I am going to invite the member to ask the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283ec7f51b3b742f7bfbf5ac9cf3667ca\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen a version of the report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297bd0363e03640418295b75e2de4e333\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of a draft copy of the report, but it is far from complete. It would be very premature, actually, to waste time on this before the report has been finalised. As the State Services Commissioner says, actually, it is months away. The important thing is, it is his report to release.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5f372a7d7764d04beb0cd1d16051f04\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Does he expect the report to paint a picture of performance at his ministry that he will be proud of?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221df4d6c8e571467cb785edb25f6ab2c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: The story with these Performance Improvement Framework reviews is they are all about looking for areas to improve, right across Government departments. There would be no point doing it if it was a rubber-stamping exercise. I expect that there will be a range of constructive suggestions there by which the Ministry of Health can raise its performance; otherwise, what would be the point of doing it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfb2d6264d1c43169d6aaba98ec55923\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received a request from any of the district health board chairs to meet following the recent Budget misallocation; if so, when does he expect to meet with them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab04ffefaa9b4366b5cc543e73bdba94\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I have been in communication with the chair of chairs, Jenny Black, and we are looking at meeting sometime in the next few days. So, yes, I will be meeting with her, but I am in touch with her on a very regular basis. Would you like to come to the meeting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253457b24f57949b1bb3a1bacb102e9bf\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, please. Supplementary question\u2014have I got one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d421ed044c98491fac7d0232da54d579\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All supplementary questions have been used by the Labour caucus today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002219846e96a4b9449983f199fb5313909f\u0022\u003EOpen Data Access\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022 data-id=\u00226c0561de5d1943f19b2d7a87de9a7de4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c0561de5d1943f19b2d7a87de9a7de4\u0022\u003EPAUL FOSTER-BELL (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Statistics: What recent announcements has he made on open data?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022343cc4b3bdab4452b860f3e86d730520\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022343cc4b3bdab4452b860f3e86d730520\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Statistics):\u003C/span\u003E On Sunday I announced funding of $7.2 million to further support open data access for information held by Government. I am committed to ensuring that data collected by the State is increasingly freely available and in formats that are easy to use. Opening data helps businesses, not-for-profit groups, NGOs, and individual citizens wanting to use the information to make their own decisions more easily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a79c324aa76b46edab8793edf8de7657\u0022\u003EPaul Foster-Bell\u003C/span\u003E: How is open data good for an open democracy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022896d2f88c7d84b898d430e576c0ddd5c\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good question. In years gone by, Government data has been closely and tightly held. Today New Zealand is moving to an open data, open science environment where research findings, code, and tables are shared as a matter of course. Open data creates transparency, accountability, and more informed participation. Open data also helps everyone see how their tax dollars are being spent and how effective that spending is. I am delighted to hear that the Government Statistician has been emphasising recently the need to shift the conversation from \u201CWill we open this data?\u201D to \u201CHow will we open this data?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224cf76d4264b344cfa4e16d9b4b1fd184\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228fc5af93318e4ef08d11398f348657f1\u0022\u003EGCSB\u2014Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security\u2019s Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00226ad1007e9d92493a8ea247c49990d5e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ad1007e9d92493a8ea247c49990d5e6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from Dr Kennedy Graham seeking to debate under Standing Order 389 the report of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security into the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2019s process for the determining of foreign intelligence activity. The report was released yesterday. This is a particular case of recent occurrence that involves ministerial responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESuccessive Speakers have held that it is for the member making the application to make out a case for the urgent debate. It is not for the Speaker to discover one, and I refer members to Speakers\u2019 ruling 206/4\u2014Speakers Hunt and Smith. On the information presented to me, I am not persuaded that the matter requires the urgent attention of the House; it is a matter that could be raised in the general debate today. The application is therefore declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221cfdc56abec74a2394606de143dd2923\u0022\u003EResponses\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002223bd70a2a5ce47898a072a323f89399f\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u2014Statements by Hon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b43940db106d4c37890e8bbce1ecd803\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b43940db106d4c37890e8bbce1ecd803\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Honourable members, I have received a letter from Richard Prosser raising with me the misrepresentation of statements he has made in the House by the Hon Dr Nick Smith. I have determined that Mr Prosser should have the opportunity to respond to misrepresentation under Standing Order 359. I now call on Richard Prosser to respond to the misrepresentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022 data-id=\u00226992dcb3ba8b490b8e10f543f36cbdd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226992dcb3ba8b490b8e10f543f36cbdd1\u0022\u003ERICHARD PROSSER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to make a statement in accordance with Standing Order 359 in response to my words in the House being misrepresented by the Hon Nick Smith. On 9 February 2017 during the debate on the Prime Minister\u2019s statement, I stated that New Zealand First \u201Cis saying that when water is exported from this country it should command a royalty, paid to the Crown on behalf of the people who own it.\u201D In reply to a response from the Hon David Bennett, I then gave an example of the comparative value of a royalty paid on a standard barrel of oil relative to a royalty charged at the rate of 10c per litre on an equivalent volume of water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EHowever, in reply to my supplementary question No. 3 to question No. 5 during question time on 24 May 2017, which read \u201CWill he support New Zealand First\u2019s policy of any potential charge that is applied volumetrically to consented water takes being confined to a royalty only on the export only of water as water only; if not, why not?\u201D, Dr Smith replied: \u201CI have seen New Zealand First proposals for a 10c-per-litre charge on all commercial water users. That would cost our dairy industry $600 billion a year, and effectively destroy New Zealand\u2019s largest export industry.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EIn this statement, and on three other occasions, Dr Smith has falsely portrayed New Zealand First\u2019s policy of a royalty only on the export only of water as water only as being a charge on all commercial water users\u2014in particular, the dairy industry\u2014which it is not and which it has never been, and he has stated that he has seen proposals to that effect from New Zealand First that he has not seen, because they do not exist and have never existed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EMy words have been knowingly and deliberately misrepresented by Dr Smith. This is unacceptable conduct on the part of a senior Government Minister and a member of this House of considerable experience. I thank you for granting this opportunity for the record to be corrected. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u00222aa1b59c3f104019ab937caceb3288db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222aa1b59c3f104019ab937caceb3288db\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just ask you to reflect on that statement. My submission to you is that it was not in the nature of a personal reflection made by the Hon Dr Nick Smith at all, and what we had there was really a matter of debate and general debate on party political matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b56bcae1fd52487a9bed9e3938273765\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b56bcae1fd52487a9bed9e3938273765\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I refer the member to Standing Order 359. It is an opportunity for members who consider that they have been misrepresented to consider a breach of privilege. It has become a lesser means of dealing with the matter. I looked very carefully at the statements that were made, the allegations that were made. I determined that, in fact, Mr Prosser had been misrepresented. He is then, therefore, given the opportunity to clarify that in this House, and he has done so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224c32b00fbaa242f4b367c336bf4f3a8f\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223bc54cc1ac6c43929b424d6580b3d3c2\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022 data-id=\u00223e3ac7b8f9af4a18956901974e52f982\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e3ac7b8f9af4a18956901974e52f982\u0022\u003EMARAMA FOX (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. You know, for the last couple of days there has been nothing spoken about outside of this House but the member Todd Barclay and the furore that has gone on around him. The allegations of cover-up\u2014you would think that this place should all be slip, slop, slapping and covering ourselves profusely because of all of the conversations that have been going on. But there is one thing I am sure of, and that is that the member from Clutha-Southland right now must be in a whole heap of hurt. That is what I am sure of. Some might say not without reason, but there is a saying in M\u0101oridom that says: \u201CWaiho m\u0101 te whakam\u0101 hei patu.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022\u003E[Leave it for the embarrassment to subdue.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022\u003ELeave it for the embarrassment and not the hand to hit the child\u2014and this young man is a young man. There is no doubt that this young man has been bitten by whakam\u0101, and he is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9934da6757043188e2b60772e6b2324\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t you make excuses for him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a9ebd882d8d4bfc9635ca97f6b941a9\u0022\u003EMARAMA FOX\u003C/span\u003E: I am not excusing his actions, but there is no doubt that this young man has been hurt by the patu of whakam\u0101, and so I am not going to throw any more stones that have not already been thrown. But I look to the legacy of our ancestors for examples of how to conduct yourself, for examples of how to serve your community, and for examples of integrity. In the last couple of days we have buried Dame Ng\u0101neko Minhinnick, and now, the next day, we learnt about Iwi Nicholson\u2014two fine examples of what true leadership looks like. That is what I want to concentrate my comments on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022\u003EThe legacy that they left us was how to serve their community. The legacy that they left us, as we still mourn their memory, was dedicated service to their people\u2014a legacy of service, a legacy of kaupapa. Kahurangi Ng\u0101neko Minhinnick was the trailblazer in the environmental legislation reform and was laid to rest only yesterday at T\u0101huna Marae, next to the waters that she advocated for in the Manukau Harbour. Iwi Nicholson was the repository of knowledge for Ng\u0101ti Toa Rangatira and Ng\u0101ti Raukawa, and his k\u014Drero through the Waitangi Tribunal submissions tells of a brilliant mind\u2014a man who was generous with his knowledge and shared it with his people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022\u003EThe legacy comes from them to us, because come 23 September this year, we will be able to welcome new leaders into this House who stand with integrity\u2014leaders like R\u0101hui Papa, for example. I was proud to be at P\u014Dhara Marae on Sunday to support the announcement of his standing for the M\u0101ori Party. It was wonderful there to see his whanaunga, Nanaia Mahuta, supporting as well by being in attendance. We stood and acknowledged her work there, the member in Hauraki-Waikato. But on 23 September we also expect to see Shane Taurima take his place. We also expect to see Howie T\u0101mati take his place. For the last few months, if you have watched Facebook Live, you might have seen a little show that Te Ururoa Flavell and I do, called Run with the Fox and Swim with the Shark, and now, come 23 September, you can kick with the Kiwi and walk on the ground\u2014apparently, that is what R\u0101hui Papa was saying. Make it all r\u0101hui.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3d9fd88-4715-419d-be08-e1c4eda7d09e\u0022\u003EAnyway, we are heading towards a wonderful next period of time where we can put allegations aside, where we can stop belittling other people and take responsibility for our actions\u2014which is what this man has done\u2014and stand up and put people up to take a place in this country\u2019s decision making, and show that we can be a part of this nation. I just want to remind everybody who might be watching out there in television land that come 23 September, we do not need 50 percent; we just need the middle, and then neither side will be able to make a move without us. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u002211774868c56b4b7f82cae3559ac2c5c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211774868c56b4b7f82cae3559ac2c5c5\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The National Government is the Government of infrastructure, and if anyone needed any persuasion on that, if there was any doubt whatsoever, I have got two small words for them: Waterview tunnel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7664921f54543d28916808c23d18dcb\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Helen Clark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ae943eb1a9d4f1bb80a9ff6fa3f8843\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: It started, Mr Mallard, under the National Government, and was completed under the National Government, and the scale of this project, which was officially opened\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3565d75264642dcbcdfe5d81e303b52\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Two words: Helen Clark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fbbe75a280c4010aba727262b5cc70a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014earlier this week, Sunday. Phil Twyford was there, he loved every moment of it\u2014I know that\u2014even though it was a National Government success. He was there, and thousands of people from all over Auckland\u2014actually, from all over New Zealand\u2014came through that and were really chuffed to see what an exciting scale of project it is. It is some two harbour bridges in length either way, three lanes in each direction\u2014the biggest, the most complex transport, infrastructural\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec33ff31fb5647baa97aab45a30fdc05\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: How are those bridges going in Northland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203aa8cdbb0474cc0a2e6e2a144d5280a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014project New Zealand\u2014really well\u2014has ever, ever seen. What it means for Aucklanders is transformative. What it means, quite simply, is the biggest transformation in travel patterns\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3178debc19f4ba68d18a984dcc51370\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: This is going to lead the news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b9e222fc8a04c788e9ba41338f238a9\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in our biggest city in 60 years, Mr Robertson, since the harbour bridge came online in 1959. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273522f4d227b44e2af8b5423ad4d78b6\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: What about the gridlock?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d91fbdc9a25d4966885a271fa98c2ba6\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: What it will do, Mr Twyford, is, fundamentally, mean more capacity on our State highway network, a bypassing of the city, more options for Aucklanders, and I know they want to see that\u2014particularly, actually, from the areas Phil Twyford says he represents and lives in. They will get in and around much better. More than that, it is going to free up local roads significantly\u2014whether it is Carrington Road, whether it is Sandringham Road, whether it is Dominion Road, Gillies Avenue, Manukau Road, it is going to make a really significant difference. It is not a silver bullet, but it is, with other projects, going to make a very significant difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EIt is part of the Government\u2019s comprehensive plan for Auckland and its transportation. We have been working incredibly hard on this, and people in Auckland and around New Zealand know that and are starting to see it with the cranes, with the construction that is happening everywhere over Auckland, but also around New Zealand. There is $4 billion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ecf26c8ab244022a32a8d82e91367fd\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Why are people stuck in their cars, not going anywhere?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fee972498ee4e8b80e8401d709d3487\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in new money, Sue Moroney, in the Budget, the most we have seen in the 2000s. It is actually part of a 4-year, $11 billion group of infrastructural capital expenditure. Over 4 years it is going to make a really big difference\u2014all of it new money, the dividends of a strongly growing economy. In fact, it is better than that, because outside of just the new money coming from the Government, from this part of Government, there is, over and above that, $32.5 billion of infrastructure investment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022428392c55ba747dcb89696808f878fe0\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: You can take your numbers up now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e22a4801eb442088e2b704bb725f8f2\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014over the next 4 years. That is $9 billion in State highways, Mr Robertson. You may laugh, you may scoff, but it is the biggest investment in infrastructure we have seen in recent times\u2014possibly in any times\u2014in a range of projects: roads; rail, really big investment going to rail; cycleways; public transport\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5a0fc88018c4c18a8a54dbe0449b23d\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Broadband.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9c838a7e35f462aa026ec64f63f6e05\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014busways, but also, you are right, in other areas outside of just transportation, whether it is broadband, whether it is schools, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003ELet me just go through some of that. In education through the Budget there was $392 million more investment into schools around New Zealand. That is going to make a really big difference. Defence\u2014there was over half a billion dollars of investment in that area. In housing there was $120 million in new money. In health there was $150 million of capital expenditure, and in the justice sector there was $786 million. So this is the Government of infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI am really delighted to see projects that are going to make a really big difference for Aucklanders come online, like Waterview Connection, and other projects all around New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022077da06f04b84d308f8f8018bbb87617\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: The Government of gridlock.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022389fcaf5ba2048d7ae62848f1ec7ead2\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014like the Waikato Expressway, which Sue Moroney has opposed for a long time, but which she knows the people of Hamilton are really excited about, because of the efficiency, the productivity, and the difference it makes. This is the Government of infrastructure, making a really big difference all around New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00225e97b4f1e4dd432ebdd6f02fe085828c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e97b4f1e4dd432ebdd6f02fe085828c\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E For the last 18 months the current Prime Minister of New Zealand has been at the centre of a cover-up. He has known that one of his MPs covertly taped one of his staff members, and that that MP went on to mislead, dissemble, and not tell the truth about what had happened. The Prime Minister of New Zealand knew this. He knew it from the beginning of last year, and he has done nothing to bring that member of Parliament to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat is more, when the Prime Minister of New Zealand has been asked directly about what he knew about what Todd Barclay had done, he has not told the truth. On 1 March last year Bill English was asked on the radio what he knew of the reasons for staff resignations in Todd Barclay\u2019s office, and whether he had personally spoken to any of those staff. Mr English answered: \u201CNo.\u201D That was on 1 March. On 21 February, we now know that the Prime Minister of New Zealand texted the then electorate chair of the National Party in Clutha-Southland to tell that man, Stuart Davie, that Todd Barclay had indeed recorded his staff member in a covert manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister has not told New Zealanders the truth about what happened in Todd Barclay\u2019s office. He has dissembled, he has avoided answering questions, and he has failed the basic test of a Prime Minister in this country. Honesty is the very least that New Zealanders can expect from their politicians, and all the more so from their Prime Minister, and Mr English has completely failed on that account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen he was given the opportunity to talk to police in April last year, he told them that Mr Barclay had indeed told him that he had recorded Glenys Dickson. When he then had the opportunity to see that document, that police statement, released as part of an overall police Official Information Act release, Mr English made sure his statement was withheld. This is not a Prime Minister who wants to be open or transparent. This is not a Prime Minister who was being honest with New Zealanders about what has happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt makes no difference that Todd Barclay has left today. This is about Bill English and Bill English\u2019s credibility to be Prime Minister, because for politicians it is not about what happens when something is exposed by the media and what you then do. It is about whether you do the right thing at the time that you know about it. It is not a sign of credibility to come forward only when you are being exposed by the media. It is not a sign of credibility or leadership to change your mind within 3 or 4 hours yesterday because you worked out you had been caught out and found out. Those are not the actions of a real leader or a Prime Minister, and they are not the actions of someone whom New Zealanders can trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister has broken the basic bond with New Zealand people, of the trust that they should have in him. He did not tell the truth about what he knew. He stood by an MP who has told lies. He has allowed a staff member of 16 years to be bullied and covertly recorded out of her job, and even yesterday he wanted the issue to go away instead of actually fronting up to New Zealanders about what he and his prot\u00E9g\u00E9 have done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is not a leader. This is a person who has become Prime Minister, and now that he is in that role he is cruelly exposed to New Zealanders as someone who does not have the fundamental capabilities and attributes that they need in their Prime Minister\u2014that is, that he would be straight-up with New Zealanders, that he would show leadership and deal with people who break the law, rather than try to cover it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe last 24 hours have taught New Zealanders a lesson. This is a squalid shambles, as the Fairfax editorial said today, and, as other commentators have said, this has now cast great doubt on Bill English\u2019s credibility. At this election it will be about a contest between a leader in Andrew Little who is straight-up and tells New Zealanders how it is, and Bill English, who has lied on behalf of his MP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00223e0883112ca94f59a32827dcf1f701bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e0883112ca94f59a32827dcf1f701bb\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister for Primary Industries):\u003C/span\u003E Is it not typical that we get a lot of trash talk from the other side of the House? I am not even going to lower myself to get in the trough with what we have just heard over the other side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the positivity on the back of Budget 2017, and the significant investment that has been made into infrastructure\u2014about $4 billion. I saw that first hand yesterday when I was up in the Gisborne region. In this Budget we are investing another $90 million in water storage and infrastructure and irrigation projects. I was delighted to be there with the mayor, Meng Foon, yesterday, and other horticulture leaders, turning the tap on the managed aquifer recharge programme, where water on high-flow levels is taken out of the Waipaoa River and injected, under pressure, into the aquifer at the Poverty Bay flats there, which has got a huge amount of pressure on it over the summer months. Ultimately that will recharge that aquifer, to allow it to be used over the summer months. Here is a classic example of the Government investing with the local community and council, the local trust, to underpin job creation in the Gisborne region. We do not hear that across the other side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EAnother example\u2014when I left the tap-turning ceremony I went down to LeaderBrand, which has just built the salad house. It is a massive investment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca3239f812de406ca1b64bd017622e6a\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: $20 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e73666c60cf439b80897cf76ebf293a\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of about $20 million. It is creating jobs. They said to me when I toured their factory, which is growing a whole lot of lettuces and other products, that they would not have invested in this new plant, which is not properly open yet\u2014soon they will be having an opening, and the local MP, I am sure, will be there celebrating with those business leaders in her community\u2014unless they had the confidence that the managed aquifer recharge scheme that we have invested in was going to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThis Poverty Bay flats area underpins thousands of jobs\u2014about 1,100 jobs\u2014and then there is the ability, when they add more value to these products, to create more jobs. There are 3,000 hectares under irrigation, of 18,000\u2014there is potential for more. This is a wonderful story but it gets lost by the other side of the House, which does not care and does not support our rural communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWhat is also important, when we think about the investment that the Government is making into infrastructure, is rural broadband. That follows on from the investment that is being made in ultra-fast broadband for our small regional towns. Soon, the Government will be announcing the next investment into Rural Broadband Initiative 2. If you think about the challenges that the primary sector faces right now, to do with water quality, nutrient loads, and taking value products to market, they are going to be required to do more measuring and monitoring. The way for our farmers and growers to do that is with reliable technology. Of course, smartphones mean that we need mobile technology. We need more cellphone towers. We need the Government to invest. Soon we will be world leading. While we are a small country here in the South Pacific, we will be the most connected country in the OECD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWhat we have also heard from Minister Bridges this afternoon is the investment that is being made into transport infrastructure, with the Waterview Connection due to open in a matter of moments. I see the first-hand experience in my electorate, where we have recently opened the Kapiti Expressway. I was also, just a couple of months ago, having a look at the great progress that is being made on Transmission Gully. These are significant investments made by this Government that are going to transform the economy. Instead of vehicles, produce, and people waiting to get to market or to their hospital appointments or to the ferry, they will have a streamlined transport corridor, worth $2 billion, from Wellington all the way to Levin, and Foxton will be the gateway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ECan I finish by saying that the mood of the primary sector at Fieldays was really buoyant. There was a record crowd through the gates, of 133,000 people, and the reception that the National Party got was absolutely fantastic. Ian McKelvie, who is leading the Primary Production Committee, was there. We released this document, which says the primary sector is in really good heart\u2014$41 billion next year, and growing at 9 percent. Well done to our foresters, fishers, growers, and farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u002259eb07b3cdf14ac9b76b3b68c6999d7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259eb07b3cdf14ac9b76b3b68c6999d7a\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E On 30 April 1973, Richard Nixon accepted the forced resignations of Harry Haldeman and John Ehrlichman in the vain hope that blaming others and playing dumb would save his reputation and his administration, and kill the story. But the Washington Post and the New York Times and the networks were not buying it. The media was doing its job, and it kept on doing its job while Nixon dissembled and diverted. He inverted every legal and moral challenge that was thrown at him and threw them back. He prided himself on his prodigious memory. Nixon never stooped to the \u201CI cannot recall\u201D defence. He thought that such a pathetic line diminished his office. It took another 466 days until he arrived at the inevitable truth of the consequences of his carefully constructed cover-up. In the end he did the honourable thing. He lived up to the pledge he made before God and to the people who gave him the power and the privilege of his office. It was 9 August 1974, and I remember the day because we listened to his resignation speech over the intercom in my form 1 class at Glenfield Intermediate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBill English is standing at a similar crossroads. Will he match the vestiges of decency that Nixon finally mustered at the end and honour the solemn oath that he swore? Will Bill English submit to the Watergate principle that it is always the cover-up that gets you? Or will he try to run down the clock for another 94 days? Will he signal to the police to reopen the investigation that he was complicit in thwarting in the first place so that they can step in and save his arrogant, crumbling Government; so that he can try to hide behind the commissioner and say \u201CI can\u2019t comment; there\u2019s a police investigation.\u201D; and so that this broken Government can limp on, showering the electorate with more money, promises of things to do over 30 years, and new poll-driven targets that it has ignored for the last 9 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EArrogance, conceit, and hubris\u2014we are watching the decay of another tired National Government. The true state of the English-Joyce Government is now on view. Alfred Ngaro naively revealed how those members think and talk behind the spin. Then Nicky Wagner doubled down on the hapless Ngaro. Do you know what the backbench members are saying now? \u201CBring back John.\u201D That is what they are saying now. That is what they are thinking. That is what they want. At least John Key knew how to run a cover-up and come out of it smiling. Remember Muldoon after 9 years? He was bloated, entitled, tired and emotional, broken, bereft of ideas, and clinging on to power for its own sake. The game was up, and they abandoned him, just as Nick Smith and Anne Tolley refused to back their colleague and leader\u2019s account\u2014his account of the latest version of events. That was extremely telling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EHistory repeats. Bill English is sliding towards the same fate as Jim McLay and Jenny Shipley before him. This country needs a fresh approach; a fresh approach to housing that will see hard-working Kiwi families get a warm, dry home that they can afford, not living in a broken-down caravan or one of Nick Smith\u2019s rat-infested boarding houses. We need a fresh approach to immigration that will give our biggest city a breather while infrastructure catches up. We need a fresh approach to mental health so that families are not left alone to cope with a family member who is mentally unwell and cannot get treatment. Just like in 1984, just like 1999, this crowd have run out of ideas. They have run out of excuses. They have had 9 years and this is what it has come to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAndrew Little and Jacinda Ardern and the Labour team are ready. New Zealand needs a fresh approach, and it needs a new Labour-led Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf203b30700d443d9da7455548645d7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf203b30700d443d9da7455548645d7d\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E There is nothing tired about this Government, and this is a party that will go to the election campaign in just 3 months with a very proud record to stand on and with tremendous further plans. We have outlined in the Budget this year just how extensive our further plans are, and I have got a great opportunity now just to focus on a little bit of them. You would think that with just 3 months to go before that election the Opposition would be desperate to try to turn around their negative poll ratings and sell some sort of vision to the public about what they can do. But, instead, it is nasty; it is backward focused. It is the same negativity they have languished in now for 9 years, and I think the public is becoming increasingly unimpressed by the way in which they present themselves and are thinking there is no vision over there. It is the party on this side of the House that is showing that we are still full of energy and full of determination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EAs the Leader of the House noted when he opened the National Party\u2019s theme in this debate today, this is the Government of infrastructure, and we will be remembered in history as a party that has made an outstanding contribution to the development of this country. As he did, I want to congratulate everybody who has been involved in the staggering achievement that is the Waterview tunnel, up in Auckland. I want to thank, closer to home, all the wonderful teams that have been involved in the roll-out of the Waikato Expressway. It is transforming our region. It is an outstanding achievement. We are incredibly proud of having delivered it within budget and within the time frame that we promised when we came into office. I am so proud of the transformation of Waikato Hospital. As the Minister of Health has noted, we have one of the best facilities in Australasia right in my electorate, in Hamilton West, and we have wonderful people delivering great services there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe Leader of the House spoke of major infrastructure projects in transport, health, justice, education, telecommunications, ICT, and many other important areas. And, of course, we have made an enormous contribution and commitment to the people of your region, Mr Speaker, in Canterbury for the rebuild of Christchurch and to support them through the terrible suffering that they have experienced since September 2010. I am very proud of that, and we as a Government repeat that commitment, and we are seeing Christchurch rebuilt in a way that I think is delivering a wonderful modern city of the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EAll of this is possible\u2014and possible only\u2014because of the Government\u2019s sound economic management since we came into office in late 2008. We have a growth rate that is the envy of most countries in the Western World. We have steady growth in jobs and will be investing a total of $32.5 billion in new infrastructure over the next 4 years. It is a phenomenal achievement, and all New Zealanders will benefit from this. I am very proud of the country that we will be bequeathing to our children, our grandchildren, and their children to follow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI recently became the Associate Minister of Education, and I have had the great privilege in recent weeks of visiting a large number of schools, mostly to deal with infrastructure announcements to do with roll growth and meeting the needs that those schools have. I want to thank the principal and the staff of Prebbleton School, in West Christchurch, where I was able to announce new classrooms for that school, Lincoln Primary School, and Allenton School, a little bit further down the road in the electorate, I think, of the member for Rangitata. I had the privilege of going to Cambridge East School and making a similar announcement, including three new classrooms in the member for Taranaki - King Country\u2019s electorate, Pirongia School. What a phenomenal growth that area is seeing. I also, on Monday, went to the lovely Houghton Valley School, in the member for Rongotai\u2019s electorate, and there, again, met with wonderful school communities working very, very hard, and I was delighted to be able to announce a new classroom that is going in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWe inherited from the previous Labour Government school infrastructure that, on average, was 40 years old. We inherited major legacy issues, particularly of weathertightness and a lack of earthquake preparation, and we have been dealing with that. The Budget this year provides a further $456.5 million in school property, including $392.4 million of capital funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWe are committed to rolling out the education infrastructure that this country needs. There are major challenges coming with population growth, particularly in Auckland, but we are on top of it. We are delivering, and I am so proud of that record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u00228e6f2b89a2f744839355d1df8a907a79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e6f2b89a2f744839355d1df8a907a79\u0022\u003ERON MARK (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Well, you know, it is one of those days where you have a speech that you have to deliver, but then people stand up on that side of the House and they say things and you cannot let them get away with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ESo to Minister Nathan Guy, I have got a couple of comments to make. Mr Nathan Guy, it is so lovely to think that you came back from Mystery Creek feeling that the entire farming community is happy with this Government. Let me assure you: dozens and dozens of people came to the New Zealand First stand and said these words: \u201CI used to vote National. All my life, I, my father, my parents voted National, but you have got our votes this time round. We\u2019ve had enough.\u201D And Mr Tim Macindoe knows, because he was getting it in the ear all the time that he was there, albeit he turned up looking like a suit from Auckland, but never mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe farming community, Mr Guy, has had enough of your incompetencies. You know, we have got myrtle rust. Talk to us about how horticulture is going to take you forward, and yet you have left the door open and allowed myrtle rust to come in, which will wipe out the honey industry\u2014m\u0101nuka, k\u0101nuka, p\u014Dhutukawa, kauri. And let us not even talk about kauri dieback, which his famous ministry is not dealing with. And let us not even talk about pea weevil, velvetleaf, or the other dozens\u2014there will be more. Mr Macindoe says that his party will be known in history as the infrastructure party\u2014wrong. This Government will be known as the Government that had more bio-protection breaches in history than any other Government in history, and for the incompetence in the way in which it is dealing with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EBut I digress. What we have seen play out in the last 24 hours has, yes, been focused on the hapless Todd Barclay, the young junior backbencher whom New Zealand First has been hearing the stories about for well over 12 months and has been the benefactor, as many of his members resigned from his committee and joined the New Zealand First committee. In fact, our new candidate Mark Patterson is from that very committee. So we have known about this stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe other person who knew about it was the Prime Minister, and it does not cut any ice around here to have the Prime Minister flatly give false answers to the media yesterday, and come into the House and try to retract his misstatements\u2014it does not cut any ice. The fact of the matter is the Prime Minister knew that a complaint had been laid with the police. The Prime Minister knew that there had been a breach of the law. The Prime Minister knew that the police were investigating. The Prime Minister knew that Mr Barclay was refusing to cooperate, and the Prime Minister knew long term, down the line, that this was going to reflect on his party, but he had hoped that it would all go away\u2014that the hush money that was paid up would make it all go away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhat the Prime Minister has, sadly, demonstrated to New Zealand\u2014but, actually, gratefully, at this point in time in the electoral cycle\u2014is that he is not fit to lead this country. Mr English is not fit to lead. What Mr English needs to understand is that to lead New Zealand he must enjoy the trust of the people, the confidence of the people. He must be reliable. He must exercise good judgment. He must be consistent. He must be courageous. He must be unwavering in the standards that he sets, and he must demonstrate those standards to a far higher level than which he demands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EOn that point he failed. He must be impartial. One would have asked or suggested that a woman who had been in his employment for 17 years, whom he trusted implicitly and whom he knew absolutely, would not be telling lies. If he was to make a judgement call, if he was a leader who exercised wisdom, he would have deferred to that woman, that staff member, who had served him so loyally, so faithfully, during the highs and the lows of his career. When he was being investigated himself for double-dipping, when he lost an election in 2002 with a record devastating loss for the National Party\u2014if he had the wisdom, if he had the loyalty, if he had the courage, he would have deferred to her view, sat down, and listened. He would have taken Mr Barclay outside\u2014all the way outside, out into the ether, out of the National Government caucus\u2014but he did not. He chose to defend him, to protect him, and to even go so far as to lie. This is a disgraceful affair that has unravelled in front of the public, but it is timely that it happened now, and for that we take some small amount of gratitude.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227c1d50d7be0d424fa7f453b1d7e29ade\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c1d50d7be0d424fa7f453b1d7e29ade\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E This Government has done some pretty good things, but nature is not something that we can control, Mr Mark. If you think that this Government was responsible for delivering myrtle rust, you had better think again. But what I would like to say is that while we cannot control nature, what we can do is invest in infrastructure, and in our infrastructure programme we are looking at things like irrigation. Irrigation is not just for the farmers, although it is extremely helpful when it comes to certain weather conditions; it is also really good water storage for towns, and irrigation can be extremely beneficial when it comes to filling up rivers and lakes during dry periods. It has an environmental content to it. So while we cannot fight nature, we can put things in place infrastructure-wise, and, Mr Mark, I hope, when we decide on some of these projects, that you might see your way forward to supporting that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is growing faster than we have for a very long time. I cannot speak loudly today, but I will be able to do it for 5 minutes. We are adding more jobs across the country, but to keep growing we do need to invest in more infrastructure, and I can think of quite a number of examples just in my own electorate. At the moment, we have got consultation going on\u2014final stages of consultation\u2014for Mount Messenger. Recently Minister Bridges came out and he put the green light on the Awakino tunnel bypass. Mount Messenger is almost to the point where an announcement can be made, and there is really, really big excitement not only in the Taranaki end of the electorate but up in the Waikato, because that road is going to open up for produce, it is going to open up for tourism, and it is going to make a big difference to the lives of people who live along that stretch of highway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESecondly, when it comes to infrastructure, 151 towns have been identified for the next stage of ultra-fast broadband, 12 of those in my electorate. I can actually say that those towns are getting pretty excited about having that infrastructure, and the more remote parts of the electorate are looking forward to the announcement on the Rural Broadband Initiative. What is critical is that infrastructure to productivity, to health and safety, and to getting young people who can come and live out in our electorates, take their mobile phones out of their pockets, and not just make phone calls but actually be able to get the data to do their jobs, to work with apps. So I think it is pretty critical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI have also got another big project that is about begin in my electorate, and that is Waikeria Prison. Some people may think that Waikeria Prison, or prison itself, is not an exciting piece of infrastructure, I visited that prison recently and I saw people in there doing the baking, making the sausage rolls, and doing the farming. There were inmates who are actually training to be baristas\u2014they are going to cater for the tradespeople. And I think what I am really excited about is that we are actually going to have a trade training centre in there and it is going to equip people so that when they come out there are more opportunities for them. I saw people doing driver-licence testing. I saw them on the internet looking for their support services. I saw a heap of things, and our employers are much more prepared to take on work-ready people who have come from corrections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo there is a huge amount of infrastructure going on, and I know Minister Bridges has touched on roading, but I was also out the other day on the Forgotten World Highway. I know Ian McKelvie is very excited because all of the tourism infrastructure around Ruapehu, around the Forgotten World Highway, around the ski fields\u2014I have to commend the Ruapehu District Council for partnering with the Government and putting in applications around infrastructure for tourism, because it is quite a remote part of the country. I have to say, it is probably one of the biggest investments Ian has had in his electorate, and it flows into mine around \u014Chura. We are very excited that some of those facilities are going to be there for those people who want to visit the more remote parts of our country, because when you look out along that Forgotten World Highway, for places like \u014Chura, Whangamomona\u2014areas like that that I represent\u2014tourism is their lifeline. The tourism infrastructure partnership is really helping that, and I am proud of the infrastructure that this Government is delivering. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7a72fa7931f4f5d930c1096401166f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7a72fa7931f4f5d930c1096401166f2\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou, kia ora. In this general debate, I want to speak directly to young New Zealanders. Day in, day out you are being told by your parents, teachers, and society how to act, and I want to share some good life advice that I have picked up serving a while in this Parliament. It is all pretty simple, common-sense stuff. If you are having a disagreement with someone, do not secretly record them on audiotape. That is just creepy and illegal. On the other hand, if someone tells you they are secretly recording people but they are saying something different in public, you really should speak up. If you do not like someone, do not slag them off on a friend\u2019s blog and pretend it is not you. That is just cyber-bullying. If you are having an argument with someone about an issue, it is best to debate the facts, not attack the person. Revealing intimate, private data about that person is not winning an argument; that is just being stink.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EHere is some good advice that has just come out: friends do not spy on friends, even if they really, really want that flash new overseas job, because that is just \u201CGroser\u201D. If you think you have disappointed someone you have a professional relationship with, a sheep farm in the desert is not the best or the cheapest way to make amends\u2014try flowers or chocolate. If you have made a mess, clean it up. Do not just change the definition of mess and call it clean\u2014you are not fooling anyone. If there is a crisis, do not panic\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8f1eb7d37a9414dab196dbe5dacb9b7\u0022\u003EHon Maggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I understood it was a convention that you are not brought into these sorts of calls and that debate should not be read word for word from a script, as if the man was a comic genius\u2014which, clearly, he is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b872c9af2ebd42fe915016f274027be8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The Speaker should not be brought into the debate, but that is a matter for the Speaker to determine, and it is not something that should be raised by any member in this House. It is a robust debate at all times. The member has not crossed any lines, and he can certainly continue with his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6ec67a79fe445f48996c80ce45f31a5\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: That is right, Ms Barry. Thank you very much. It is amazing how many good tips I have seen in just the last few months, Ms Barry. For example, if you are in a position of power and you have the ability to fund projects people are passionate about, do not threaten to pull the plug if they disagree with you\u2014that is bullying. If you have got access to Official Information Act material and the law says it should be released, you do not have to be a rocket scientist to guess what it means if you do not. If you ever find yourself in an important meeting, staring out the window, daydreaming about maybe being on a boat in the harbour, try to keep it to yourself. You would not want to tweet that to the rest of the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWatching National Government Prime Ministers has been another really good source for advice. For example, if you are new and you are worried that people might not like you, putting spaghetti on pizza or making weird videos will not make people like you. It is OK to have a brain fade\u2014it happens to everyone\u2014but if you are always having them, and only having them on tricky issues, you might want to ask yourself: \u201CShould I see a doctor, or is something else going on?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ELastly, one other piece of advice I have picked up after watching National for 9 years is that there is no such thing as a free lunch, especially if you are poor, hungry, and do not have lunch\u2014maybe if you are an oil company. The moral of the story is that if you want advice on living a good life, do not follow National\u2019s example on running a good country. Secret recordings, hush money, funding threats, ministerial bullying, dirty politics, Official Information Act abuse, releasing people\u2019s private data\u2014this is all on top of growing pollution, poverty, homelessness, and inequality. They say that familiarity breeds contempt, and after 9 years that is exactly what I have for the ethics of this Government. For 9 years we have seen a steady erosion of standards. Our rivers are dirtier, and so are our politics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EFor 9 long years we have seen lying, yelling, the spreading of rumours, bullying, keeping secrets, and name-calling. We would not tolerate these behaviours in our children, but we have come to expect them from the party in Government. But Kiwis do care. They know that politics can be done differently. The Green Party knows the values we instil in our children are the values we should be using to run our country\u2014fairness, respect, responsibility. If someone makes a mess, they should clean it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe face so many big challenges as a country, and it is going to take grown-up politics to address them. The Green Party that knows politics can be done differently. It is time to clean up the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u00227ae6d91efd1042f4a0491948b192a3af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ae6d91efd1042f4a0491948b192a3af\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take part in this debate. We are seeing the results of some very good planning and investment strategies of this National Government. I was at the ceremonial opening of the Waterview tunnel by Prime Minister Bill English and Ministers Bridges and Joyce. The excitement there was huge. We know that thousands of people want to go through that tunnel, walk through that tunnel, cycle through that tunnel before that tunnel opens for drivers. I know it was several months ago, but it feels like it was just a couple of months ago, that I was with Ministers Bridges and Goldsmith when the tunnel boring machine Alice had just finished boring those tunnels. The anticipation for its opening was enormous. This great infrastructure project, delivered under the watch of this National Government, has been delivered as it was promised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThis project has several highlights. Of course it will change the way that people in Auckland move, but as we heard in question time, from Minister Bridges, it employed 11,000 people. It gave the opportunity for employees to upskill at work, because we know this has been a most complex roading project. The tunnel boring machine, Alice, required some seriously high levels of engineering technique. This project also gave the opportunity for young people to take part in the competition that was run to decide the name for the boring machine. I want to acknowledge Branden Hall, as his name of Alice for the boring machine was accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWhen I was talking to people in Mount Roskill, because this tunnel is going to make a huge difference to the traffic flow in Mount Roskill, I saw they were really eager to drive through this tunnel. I know that when this tunnel opens next month there will be a lot of people wanting to drive through it, just to experience it. Yes, it is going to open next month, for drivers. This is the biggest milestone in Auckland\u2019s transport network in more than half a century. It is a project of $1.4 billion. We know that the economic benefit of it is estimated to be around $430 million, with increased productivity and reduced travel times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe are able to deliver such a great project only because our economy is doing so well. We are investing hugely in our economy. We are diversifying our economy. Someone who has been outside of New Zealand, who has seen the world, knows that the world is becoming an increasingly interconnected place. The internationally friendly image of New Zealand, under this National Government, is attracting tourists, supporting our economy, and it is attracting international students, supporting our economy. We need that kind of investment from overseas, in all sectors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EActually, our international education industry is a star performer. It is worth $4.5 billion, creating more than 30,000 jobs. That is what the Labour Party wants to kill, with its immigration policy proposal. Labour wants to kill that support to our economy of $4.5 billion. It wants to kill those 30,000-plus jobs, making 30,000-plus people unemployed. I ask\u2014where will we get more money to invest in education? Where will we get more money to invest in health? Where will we get more money to invest in infrastructure projects like I have just spoken about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EIt is the same Andrew Little who was posing for the media with those international students, for his political reasons\u2014students who were being deported because they had submitted fraudulent documents\u2014saying that the Government should allow those students to stay in New Zealand. Now it is the same Andrew Little who is attacking that international education industry, and attacking international Indian and Chinese students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EOur position was clear then, and our position is clear now, too. We highly value our international education industry. We highly value our international students. We want them to have a really good experience here in New Zealand, while they are here, studying. But if there is any fraudulent activity, there will be consequences. These international students are not only providing economic benefits but also helping us to create links with our trading partners. They are also giving us the experience of different cultures. Cultures are to be enjoyed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003ESo, under this National Government, we want to see that the economy keeps growing, that we keep doing well, and that we remain well connected to the world. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002215656e752d984f7ebefb9747407a4735\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215656e752d984f7ebefb9747407a4735\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour\u2014Kelston):\u003C/span\u003E We have heard the National Government speakers today try to deliver speeches about the tunnel, as a way of trying to dig a tunnel out of here, because they are in trouble and they know it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI want to refer, firstly, to the fact that we are 94 days away from an election\u201494 days away from an election. The public is watching. The public is making a decision about whom they want to govern their country. I want to acknowledge our leadership on this side of the House. I want to acknowledge Andrew Little because he has the hardest job in this place, as the Leader of the Opposition. He, as a competent leader, has been working tirelessly with our deputy leader\u2014getting out there, genuinely engaging with New Zealanders on issues that matter to New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThey have been out there, informing people, discussing with people, and learning from people, to bring together fresh ideas for how to run this country. They have a vision for New Zealand, and New Zealand will be able to see that on 23 September. At this time, a politically tumultuous time, on this side of this House we are very proud of the fact that we have leadership with integrity that is beyond reproach. New Zealanders deserve that. They deserve leadership with integrity, and they expect nothing less from a Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ELet us contrast that with what we have on that side of the House. The question has to be asked: \u201CDid Bill English stand aside while Todd Barclay lied?\u201D. The other question that has to be asked is: \u201CDid Bill English lie about the situation?\u201D. If the answer to either of those questions is yes, then how can it be tenable for the Prime Minister to continue in his role?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThese are not white lies that we are speaking about. They are serious. The police have been involved. There have been cover-ups. There are staff members who have come out, party members, making accusations that are serious. Todd Barclay\u2019s resignation today does not change anything. The Prime Minister\u2019s astonishing lack of discernment regarding this matter reflects serious flaws in judgment and serious flaws in leadership. We are concerned, and so should the whole of New Zealand be concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister\u2019s credibility is absolutely on the line, over the Barclay debacle. No one can question that. In the space of 4 hours yesterday, English first claimed that he did not know whom he had told that Barclay made secret recordings of his staff. Then, 4 hours later, he admitted that he told the police that Barclay himself had told him about the recordings. The fact is that English did not do a U-turn yesterday morning about not remembering who told him about the recordings; he misled the public. You can dress it up, you can call it a brain fade, but it is simply a lie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWhat we heard today in the House was a continuation of those lies. We heard Paula Bennett get questioned in the House as the Minister of Police. She said that no Minister of Police was informed about the fact that this matter had been taken to the police. Well, I have spoken to a very credible former Minister of Police who informed me that, actually, when she was the Minister of Police there was a weekly briefing given to the Minister of Police, and at that briefing any matters that were sensitive, particularly matters involving high-profile New Zealanders, particularly matters that might involve MPs, would be included in the briefing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo for the Minister of Police to stand in this House today and say that the Minister of Police was not informed at any time about the fact that this matter had been taken to the police can only be deemed a lie. This whole situation places major question marks over Bill English\u2019s competency as the leader of this country. It also lets the country know that we have a tired Government. After 9 years the level of arrogance has gone through the roof and is leading to behaviour that is unacceptable with regard to MPs and also the Prime Minister of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022 data-id=\u0022281f7ae234af4cfba57b220fb252518c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022281f7ae234af4cfba57b220fb252518c\u0022\u003ENUK KORAKO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora e Te Mana Whakaw\u0101. Around 3 years ago, around about that time, I was appointed as the National Party candidate for Port Hills. From there it was around 100 days where I had the opportunity to get out there and also campaign on behalf of the National Party to get to this House. What I am saying here is that the rest is history. But over the last 3 years I have been out there, working hard on behalf of the Port Hills residents. I have been out there getting to know the Port Hills people, and I have been out there getting to know what actually matters to our Port Hills constituents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003EOne of the most important things, particularly when we talk about what we have been through in Christchurch and Canterbury\u2014back to 2011, back to 2017; I am talking about earthquakes and fires. One of the things that really matters is the rebuild of our infrastructure. When I think about that, that is really why, when I talk to our people on the doorsteps and when I talk to Port Hills people, it is about infrastructure, and it always has been. So when we look at the Port Hills and look at what has happened since the last sort of 3 years in particular, it has actually been about the construction of that infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003EJust look at the way a lot of the roads and highway systems in Christchurch\u2014we are all enjoying that as part of Port Hills residences, and also of Christchurch itself. Millions upon millions of dollars of infrastructure spend, under this Government, has actually resulted in what we are experiencing today. When we look at the construction of cycleways, particularly across the Port Hills\u2014cycleways where people can walk and run and enjoy it\u2014there are huge benefits in this. These cycleways go right across the Port Hills, and there are more to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003EWhen I look at the infrastructure that this Government has invested in, particularly around education, I only have to look at the western side of the Port Hills, where the first school that actually rose from the rubble was Halswell Primary School. That was also the first school that was introduced, and it was built under that modern learning environment. So that was the first one\u2014a brand new school; investment in educational infrastructure. When I think of Cashmere: Cashmere High School; Cashmere Primary School. When I think of Halswell Residential College\u2014all of these are beneficiaries of the incredible work that this Government has done under the investment in infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003EThe other part of this is\u2014let us just go across the Port Hills, to the Port of Lyttelton. It is the largest port in the South Island; the third-largest in New Zealand. When you look at that now\u2014this Government put in an infrastructure plan called the Lyttelton Port Recovery Plan. What we are going to have out of that now is a completely reconstructed port. We are going to also have one of the most modern cruise ship terminals in the whole of New Zealand\u2014$56 million will be spent on this new cruise ship terminal. That is a reflection of what this Government has done since those terrible, terrible situations of earthquakes and fire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003EThe other part is that the Port Hills people are telling us that this is the Government of infrastructure. When they looked at the last Budget\u2014and they can see that they are going to continue to benefit from these incredible investments that we are doing, particularly around all of those different things, such as education, infrastructure in roading, cycleways, and even when we are looking at the manufacturing industries, and all of that. This Government here is the Government of infrastructure, and this Government will continue to deliver, particularly to the Port Hills people. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229c236aa-2283-4690-9a84-aa865404bb61\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223adf6a6b044d4a0aafda3d0fbedd1c29\u0022\u003EPoint England Development Enabling Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bef59b95f1854f0dbf8ec546be04ce2b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000342\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 20 June.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002290c2f126e3d94d3f8bedaaed2bdbdbb9\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6ba90916b144dfaa032c5f305658a9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6ba90916b144dfaa032c5f305658a9a\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak to the title clause. Point England Development Enabling Bill\u2014well, what is in a name? There is no clue in the name of this bill that helps you to understand the level of anger and cynicism and disenchantment that this bill has created in the community of Point England. Is there anything wrong with development, with housing, as set out in the bill? It is a bill about development. No. Everybody in Auckland understands that we desperately need to build more houses. People want to see development, but they do not want to see it at all costs. The fact that Auckland needs more houses built, that it needs more development, as this bill purports to deliver, is not some kind of alibi for every madcap hare-brained scheme that Nick Smith comes up with, and that is what this bill is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIs there anything wrong with \u201CEnabling\u201D? Well, apart from the fact that the bill cuts across the Reserves Act, and the Resource Management Act, and the established legislative democratic processes designed to give communities a say about developments that are happening in their communities, and trying to ensure that the right questions are asked about the environmental effects of the proposed development\u2014apart from that, there is nothing inherently wrong with a development project. In fact, I would argue that if the Government and Nick Smith had gone about this differently they could have done the enabling of this project. They could have pursued the development ambitions for this 12 hectare patch of land that we are talking about, without actually poisoning the well of public support for this project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWhat is more, there is nothing wrong with an enabling bill that seeks to deliver up a patch of land that can be used as commercial redress in a Treaty settlement. There is nothing wrong with that at all. As speaker after speaker in this Chamber has pointed out through the course of this Committee stage debate, there is widespread respect and understanding for Ng\u0101ti Paoa and their aspirations to settle their Treaty settlement and move ahead, to build a platform at Point England for their people to have a marae, to have a place that they can call their own, and, actually, to build an economic base.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESo there is nothing wrong with those things, those ideas that are all inherent in the title of this bill, the Point England Development Enabling Bill. But Nick Smith has, as he has so many times before, made a pig\u2019s ear of this project, this Point England Development Enabling Bill, which had\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c1d8a98eacf4220a5eafed767402c37\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to sort of warn the member that just repeating the name of the bill over and over again gets to the point of being repetitious. It is a very narrow debate\u2014the debate on clause 1\u2014following a full Committee stage. So I am going to ask the member to confine himself to relevant matters, and I warn him there are not many.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6ce0edcd53241469d73d2f71b3126d7\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman. In relation to \u201CDevelopment Enabling\u201D in the title, what the Minister has done with this bill is to take precious parkland at Point England away from a local community that treasures that parkland and strongly believes that that parkland at Point England is needed not for development but for future generations. It is a community that is very aware that under the intensification plans of the T\u0101maki Regeneration Co., it is going to have an extra 20,000 people living there, right across the fence from the recreation reserve, as it is now. That is why there is a level of cynicism and disenchantment about this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to say also that it is an enabling bill for Treaty settlement legislation that will follow in this House. Labour has made it very clear\u2014in fact, we have put it in writing in our minority view, as part of the commentary\u2014that we will support Ng\u0101ti Paoa\u2019s Treaty settlement process when the Treaty settlement bill comes to this House because we are part of a cross-party consensus in this House that holds Treaty settlement very dear. This is an enabling bill. It has some objectives that on the face of it sound worthwhile\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00225940f23ae278440ebed4919280278e51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225940f23ae278440ebed4919280278e51\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a call on the title and commencement of the Point England Development Enabling Bill. It has been an interesting debate to be part of, and I want to reflect on the title that this bill has been given and possibly some more appropriate titles that could apply to it. I would suggest that it could be called, quite appropriately, the Point England (Sir Robert Muldoon Memorial) Bill because this area, of course, is in the former Tamaki electorate, and contained within the bill are some of the kinds of centralising tendencies that we saw from that National Party Prime Minister, such as a willingness to override democratic norms, to override community voices, and to override due process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn the debate that we have heard in this Committee stage on this bill, it has been raised time and time and time again that there could have been a better way through this bill and that with a willingness on behalf of the Government to sit down and negotiate and look at all of the options, we could have achieved something really good for Point England here. We could have achieved something really good for Point England that met the objective that all of us share to have a sustainable, enduring, and just Treaty settlement for Ng\u0101ti Paoa\u2014and I do not think there is a member in this Committee who does not support that\u2014and that could meet the objectives of supporting the Point England Reserve, which is right here in the title, and that is what we should be focused on. That is what we should be focused on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThat reserve has protections under legislation that this Parliament passed in the Reserves Act, and one of the key features of this bill is that it fundamentally changes Point England Reserve. It strips away the existing protections that that reserve has under the Reserves Act, and the core protection in the Reserves Act that the reserve has is the right for the benefits of that reserve to the local community to be paramount. Instead of going through a process to determine that, as we would usually have done under the Reserves Act, this bill, the Point England Development Enabling Bill, enables development on that reserve\u2014development that may very well be contrary to the interests of that reserve and the community that it serves. So it runs entirely contrary to the treatment of reserves in this country under the Reserves Act. Enabling residential development on a precious piece of public open space\u2014as this bill does, and as is reflected in the title of this bill\u2014is simply unacceptable and inappropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ELet us return again to those first couple of words in the title, \u201CPoint England\u201D. We have heard from the Minister in the chair, Nick Smith, time and time again through this debate that, supposedly, this is a reserve that is not particularly valuable and whose amenity is limited, and we have had the canard about the cows, supposedly. Well, actually, we have heard from submitters and we have heard from members of the community that this is actually an incredibly valued reserve. They have submitted and they have emailed and sent us some pictures. These photos show the land, supposedly, that the Minister does not think is of value to the community, but here we have kids in the triathlon and we have people playing kilikiti, and of course we had submission after submission talking about the ecological value of Point England Reserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWe had senior ecologists from the Auckland Council saying that at the very least, before we go down this track of revoking the reserve status of a piece of reserve land that has significant ecological value, and in particular\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf90526a4a8f4c2d8f6480d1a83f7be3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am going to interrupt the member, but I am doing it to warn the Minister in the chair that, by both hand gestures and comments, he is reflecting on my chairing and that he is to cease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223362ac072db49639b386eca8485cd03\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: We heard from Auckland Council that because of the ecological value that is inherent in the reserve\u2014and it is also, of course, one of the things that is protected in the Reserves Act and is stripped away by this bill\u2014there should at the very least have been an ecological assessment to determine whether the development that is enabled on this site by this bill is appropriate, given the flora and particularly the fauna that is on that site, but through the course of this debate we have not heard any substantive response from the Minister on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESo I very proudly stand here with the Labour Party to say that the title of this bill is entirely inappropriate, that this bill itself is not something that we should be supporting, and that Point England Reserve is a valued reserve and it is not a site that is appropriate for development. What we know, of course, is that there is ample opportunity for development in that community. It is currently slated for 20,000 additional homes under the Auckland Unitary Plan. The way that we do good quality development is to plan it, have democratic input, and then support it with high-quality, public open space. We do not do it by ram-raiding the high-quality, public open space in the first instance. In fact, contrary to the principles of good development, this bill, which carves up a valued reserve, compromises good quality development in the future in Point England. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d094b24311bd4396966a178dce705916\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 29; New Zealand First 12.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002219e750e13f4e4f1786b27097f80c5594\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 29; New Zealand First 12.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000359\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf02a83a6c1f454f97c95f022fe348a4\u0022\u003EEnergy Innovation (Electric Vehicles and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a06d777a6ff4a7ab45a4e8c3c89acb4\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a3a54570be634ff899d59b9d51adab0f\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Electricity Industry Act 2010\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00226e1c8a1f79e44f5f99cd6a2d0793e9ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e1c8a1f79e44f5f99cd6a2d0793e9ab\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and speak on Part 1 of the Energy Innovation (Electric Vehicles and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I will have some questions for the Minister in the chair on this\u2014I am just giving the Minister a heads up\u2014on Part 1, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1945401bbff45e5aab5fe056a3e3e8f\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for the Energy Innovation (Electric Vehicles and Other Matters) Amendment Bill to be debated as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002211f57adfe649446daad53b6c328361b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211f57adfe649446daad53b6c328361b9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that proposition? There appears to be none. That will be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c83212c8c94e4743a3bcc2d9b263ecd8\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 4, schedule, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u0022638579e8f82a423c8918784ecc2800b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022638579e8f82a423c8918784ecc2800b4\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will indeed have many more questions, probably. I guess, from the outset, just to let the Minister know, I did not have the opportunity to sit on the Commerce Committee, so I am looking at the bill as returned from the select committee with fresh eyes\u2014in particular, Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EPart 1, effectively, allows EECA\u2014the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority, which I will hereafter refer to as EECA\u2014to be able to actually have levies it has not had the ability to have before, in order to go right across the whole spectrum. One of the spectrums that EECA can now bring levies down for is in the transport sector. Of course, that is in reference to the increasing role that we hope that electricity will be playing in our transport sector, with the increasing uptake in purchase and use of electric vehicles on a private-use basis but also, we hope, increasingly in the commercial field, and in the public transport field as well. I note that new section 129A, inserted into the Electricity Industry Act 2010 by clause 6 of this bill, gives EECA the ability\u2014or, requires EECA, actually\u2014to submit a request to the Minister, seeking an appropriation of public money for the following year or any change for an appropriation for the current year that relates to costs that are intended to be recovered by way of levies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EOne of the questions I have for the Minister is\u2014given that now one of the main features of this bill is that it allows EECA to gather levies from a range of sectors\u2014is the Minister being referred to in that clause of the bill the Minister of Conservation, or is it the Minister of the particular sector from which the levy is being derived? From my perspective, what I am very interested to learn about is, if levies for electricity use are coming from the transport sector, is that reference about submitting a request to the Minister in that instance to the Minister of Transport or the Minister of Conservation? I very sincerely ask the Minister in the chair, who is shepherding the bill through this part of its process, whether they could provide some clarification to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI just note, Mr Chair, while I am on my feet, that I am not sure whether the advisers have made it here to be able to give advice on those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dc687fcfd7d42c486eb354467291007\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: It is not a matter to be raised on the floor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255898ef58ba3454fa828211ad46a9a98\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I hope the Minister knows the answer without the advisers being available to give that. I would be very interested to learn about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EOne of the most controversial features in this bill\u2014oh, I should have said at the outset that Labour supports the bill. We think it is inadequate to deal with the very exciting future that we have in front of us of renewable energy being so involved in sectors like transport, but we think it is at least a start, and that is why we are supporting these parts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EOne of the very controversial parts of this bill is the ability for electric vehicles to be using bus lanes. I think it is Part 2 of this bill that allows that to happen. It is controversial because, of course, the whole idea of bus lanes is to promote the use of public transport, not private transport. That is the whole idea\u2014that we are trying to increase the number of people traveling per vehicle. In Auckland, for example, they are called bus lanes but what they are, in fact, are T2, T3, and T4 lanes. What that means is that, yes, buses use those lanes, but also so do private vehicles that are transporting two, three, or four or more passengers. If we are trying to improve congestion in the horribly gridlocked city of Auckland, which that Government has allowed to\u2014you know, it just sat back and watched while the gridlock has got ever worse in that city. If we are trying to unlock that gridlock, then why would we allow vehicles that may have just one passenger in them\u2014may just have the driver in them\u2014to actually continue to use those sorts of lanes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThat is the impact of the change in that part of this bill. Lanes that have been set aside in our most congested city, and in other cities, actually, which actually require people to have multiple passengers\u2014in fact they are really designed for buses to use, to get people out of their one person per car habit and into buses so that they can expediate their journey by having a lane dedicated to them. Now, increasingly, the lanes are going to be clogged up, potentially by single-user vehicles, whether they are electric or not. I do not know, and I would be interested to hear from the Government what the policy setting is that it is trying to address by this. What is the policy setting? Because I have no evidence, internationally or in New Zealand, that suggests that opening these precious bus lanes up to single-user electric vehicles is somehow going to magically lift the number of electric vehicles that are purchased in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EAll the international research and evidence says that the important thing about improving our use and uptake of electric vehicles is going to be about the purchase price\u2014that is the single biggest driver of whether there will be a large uptake of electric vehicles or not. And yet this Government is not using the best tool at its disposal to address that issue. The Government, owning one of the largest fleets in the country, is not even requiring its own departments and ministries to purchase electric vehicles. That would be the single best way of having a mass purchase of electric vehicles. That would, by definition, bring the purchase price down, and that would be the thing that would increase the uptake of electric vehicles. But, no, this Government instead says: \u201CHang on, hang on. We\u2019ve got congestion rising in all of our major cities, actually, but particularly Auckland. Let\u2019s clog up the bus lanes more.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EAs I understand\u2014I am not from Auckland, but many Aucklanders tell me that, actually, the bus lanes are pretty heavily congested these days. That is a great thing, because that is about a great uptake of public transport. But why does this Government think that the best thing it can do is start to put electric vehicles\u2014often cars driven by one person with no other passengers\u2014in those lanes and make it even harder for our public transport system to be the most efficient it can be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI throw that challenge out to the Government: please explain where the evidence is that that measure will significantly increase the uptake of electric vehicles in New Zealand, and where the evidence is that it will not instead have the possibly unintended but very obvious consequence of making the public transport system in Auckland and our other major cities less efficient. If that happens, if our public transport system becomes less efficient because the buses, and the people driving with two or three people per car, and the taxis, which can also use those routes\u2014they are getting clogged up increasingly by people, one person a car, in an electric vehicle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI think there is a common misunderstanding: people seem to equate electric vehicles with fixing all of the woes of our transport system. Well, there is no difference. The one thing it will do is it will reduce carbon emissions, and I applaud that. I absolutely applaud that. But there is no difference, in terms of congestion, road safety, or those other aspects of our transport system we should be concerned about, that an electric vehicle delivers over a petrol-powered or a diesel-powered vehicle. They take up the same amount of space on the road. They add to our congestion. There is no road safety improvement from introducing them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003ESo, I want to finish my contribution by putting the challenge out to the Government to please show us the policy advice that tells us that having electric vehicles move into bus lanes is the best thing that we can do for our transport system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u00222e08c5edcd214a9eaca8b35d8ff70777\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e08c5edcd214a9eaca8b35d8ff70777\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to pick up more or less where my colleague Sue Moroney left off\u2014on the matter of the use of special vehicle lanes by electric vehicles. I understand the policy intention here is to facilitate and support the use of electric vehicles by allowing them to use bus lanes and other special vehicle lanes. For instance, we have had experiments with lanes for vehicles that have two or more passengers in them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWhat I am interested in, though, is not so much the policy intention behind it but the enforcement, because it seems to me that it is going to be very, very challenging to enforce the rule that only electric vehicles are allowed to use what would otherwise be lanes specifically for public transport. I understand that this was raised at the Commerce Committee and that the committee\u2019s response was to insert new clause 17A. New clause 17A, \u201CSection 145 amended (Evidence of approved vehicle surveillance equipment)\u201D, states: \u201C(1) In section 145(1), after \u2018moving vehicle offence\u2019, insert \u2018or a special vehicle lane offence\u2019. (2) In section 145(2), replace \u2018in proceedings for a moving vehicle offence\u2019 with \u2018, in proceedings for a moving vehicle offence or a special vehicle lane offence,\u2019.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI understand that the consequence of that amendment is that it will be allowable for photographs to be taken of vehicles in special vehicle lanes and that those photographs will then be used to look at the licence plate and determine whether or not that vehicle is an electric vehicle. Fine\u2014that is one way of enforcing the rule that only electric vehicles may use special vehicle lanes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister, as a representative of the Government, is about the resources that the Government is going to put towards the administration of this. What resources will the Government put into the\u2014quite considerable, I would imagine\u2014amount of administration that is going to be required to go through all of those photographs, all of those vehicles, and look at those registration plates to determine whether or not the vehicle is an electric vehicle and to then follow up with those that are not electric vehicles and issue fines and what have you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIs there something that is going to be done through technology? Is there going to be new technology or at least resources made available to the Ministry of Transport, or the police, or whoever is going to be responsible for enforcing this so they can do this through technology, or is it going to be a matter of somebody sitting at a desk and going through all the photographs\u2014sitting at a computer and going through all the photographs? I hope it is not the latter. It is one thing for us to pass legislation in this House, set up the rules, and say that this will now be possible, but it is quite another thing entirely for that legislation to be properly enforced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EMy concern is that the concerns raised by submitters at the select committee are absolutely correct\u2014that vehicles that are not electric vehicles will be able to get into special vehicle lanes. It will not be immediately obvious, and so you then have that issue of bus lanes being clogged up not just with electric cars but actually, potentially, with non-electric conventional cars as well, and that the resources will not be there to properly enforce this rule. Then it will become known that you can get away with driving in a bus lane and\u2014hey presto\u2014all the bus lanes are clogged up and the public transport system is then put under extraordinary and unnecessary strain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI think that the House, in considering this legislation, needs to know that the Government has considered that as an issue\u2014the resourcing that will need to go in to making sure that section 145(1) and (2), as amended by\u2014[Bell rung] Mr Chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a7ec6dacbea4b1cba9aeceae30acf55\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member thinks he can sort of get a bit closer to the detail of the bill, that would be good. I will give him another try.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e09bfef0ce5f43d096dea168de6537a3\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. How magnanimous of you! So exactly how does the Government intend to ensure that those changes made in new clause 17A will actually be enforced to make sure that this legislation actually operates correctly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EAnother area that the select committee considered was the collection of the gas levy, and the select committee recommended amending clause 13 to replace rather than amend section 23 of the Energy (Fuels, Levies, and References) Act 1989 to place liability for the gas levy solely on where the gas is sold by a retailer. That, presumably, is to simplify the process of collecting that levy\u2014collecting the levy at the point of sale\u2014and I wonder what consultation has been done with the retailers who are going to be required to collect that gas levy. I wonder whether that is something that is going to be simple for them or whether there are going to be additional costs for them in collecting that levy. Obviously, we want the collection of levies to be as simple and straightforward as possible, but, again, because this is a change that has been made by the select committee, what consideration has been made by the Government to ensuring that that levy will work appropriately?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThose are the only two issues that I wanted to traverse in this contribution. I am sure there will be others, and I am sure colleagues are preparing to rise to take a call as well, but if the Minister were able to address those questions, particularly, really, the question about the special transport lanes, that would be most appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0bed85bda4a4ebb8028868dc11f363d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0bed85bda4a4ebb8028868dc11f363d\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Since the Labour members are asking me to speak\u2014all right. I actually think that we are in danger, of course, of having peace break out, which is a good thing. Electric vehicles are something\u2014and I will address some of the concerns raised by the previous two speakers\u2014I am quite keen on, and I think a lot of members of Parliament are. They are quite expensive at the moment, but there is a really simple way around that: manufacturers could start making cheaper cars, and some already are doing that. The thing is that cars\u2014whether they are petrol-powered, diesel-powered, or electric-powered\u2014come in all sorts of different models and different prices, and at the moment there is just not the large second-hand market in New Zealand that we are used to having and do have in terms of petrol and diesel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d02628a4ba77403881980d63db8de82f\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: You could help with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245cad4c3349e4150909e395248b4e84b\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Moroney has just called out that we could solve that by having all the Government fleet in it. Well, possibly, except that there is another little issue, and that is the issue of how long batteries last in these cars and what is happening to those batteries at the end of it. I have had the privilege of going to see electric cars being made, and one particular make of car has batteries\u2014multiple batteries\u2014that actually form the chassis of the car, essentially. This works really well, until I said: \u201CWell, what happens when they die?\u201D. The answer was they are guaranteed for 10 years. I said \u201CWell, in New Zealand 10 years does not make an old car. So what happens then?\u201D, and the answer was: \u201COh well, you could get a new one.\u201D I said \u201CHow much is that?\u201D, and it is US$25,000, and I said: \u201CWell, that\u2019s all a bit difficult.\u201D Then the other issue I raised was about recycling and what happens with the environmental disposal of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo I think it is not everything, but I think the electric vehicle certainly does deal with some of the emissions issues that we have, and I think that it is actually the way of the future, and all these things are going to come to fruition. Of course, every carmaker would love us to be able to give all sorts of subsidies, and, of course, some countries do, but they are also countries that give subsidies for everything else, and we pretty much got rid of those. A cheeky question could be what happens when they are crushed, and, of course, there could be issues, particularly if those batteries are so much part of the chassis. But anyway, I think it is certainly very interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn terms of things like the use of the bus lanes, or the special lanes, or whatever\u2014that is why this bill does not actually say that they are going to be using them; it actually gives the ability of the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) and also local authorities to decide which of these special lanes can be used for electric vehicles. The point is well made that not all of these special lanes are going to be suitable, either because of the vast numbers of buses going through them, or various other reasons, so that is going to be left up to the local authorities and the New Zealand Transport Agency to decide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI think it is also quite good to deal with an issue around how else we can encourage them. The point was made that we could have a Government fleet of them. That is, obviously, not a part of this bill. I would also hasten to add that you want to be a bit careful with that\u2014that you do not try to determine when, for instance, police cars would all be electric. That might be a weenie bit of a problem, given the time that it takes to charge cars at the moment, and even the super chargers that are available\u2014one is available in Hamilton; another one, I think, is being opened up on the Napier-Taupo road\u2014take about 35 minutes to charge. Otherwise, a vehicle could take 3 to 4 hours to charge, and you cannot just sit around saying you are going to wait for the police car to charge up. I think electric vehicles are going to become even more popular in New Zealand when we end up with them taking as little time to charge as it does for people to put petrol or diesel in their car. Then, I think, we are really talking. Personally, I think that they are the way of the future, and it is just a matter of making sure that we get enough volume coming through. So this is something to encourage that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI have visited places like Norway and California, in particular, to look at some of the things that they are doing around electric vehicles, and both of those countries do have this provision around electric vehicles being able to use special lanes. They do consider that as something that encourages them. Norway, of course, puts big taxes on imports of cars generally, but they do not have those on electric vehicles. They suggested that we could not put big taxes on top of electric vehicles, so I had to point out that we do not actually put big taxes on top of vehicles that are imported into the country in the first place, which they thought was unusual. I said we got rid of it in the 1980s; we are a free-market country. The other issue that California suggested is that we might like to make all of our car manufacturers manufacture electric vehicles, which is what they have brought in, and I said that would be excellent too, except that we do not manufacture any cars, so that is not going to work, is it? So really, we are down to these particular lanes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe also have something else that we do for electric vehicles and electric vehicles owners, and that is that they do not contribute to the cost of the roads, and that is something that people need to realise. When diesel users pay their road-user charges, they are paying towards the money that goes into the National Land Transport Fund. In addition to that, people who pay for petrol\u2014we are actually paying for that as well, and that is part of the cost. About 90c of the litre cost of petrol actually goes towards our road transport; that pays not only for the roads themselves but also policing of the roads. A big chunk of that goes into road policing, and it also goes towards public transport as well. It helps to meet the costs of public transport, so, actually, people who pay for petrol and diesel are contributing on a user-pays basis, plus they are also contributing to public transport. Electric vehicle owners are actually being given an exemption, which is being carried over, so that they do not contribute to that. So they are getting quite a substantial drop in the costs that they would otherwise be paying for, and that is because the roads are not generally paid out of the consolidated fund\u2014out of the general budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI think it is really important that we understand that we are giving certain subsidies, and I think what is going to happen is that as charging stations become more available, as people get their heads around the fact that they can actually buy second-hand electric vehicles from places like Japan, or that manufacturers start producing cars that do not have to be at the luxury end of the market all the time and start bringing in the competition that there is in the petrol and diesel markets, we are going to find more electric vehicles becoming more commonly seen and used in New Zealand. For many people, if you lived at home and you normally travelled in the car to the city, or dropped off kids and various other things that people do, an electric vehicle makes a lot of sense, particularly if you can charge up the vehicle at night and it is fully going in the morning. But there is still quite some time to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI can also tell the Committee, because I know that you will be interested\u2014I hope that you will be interested\u2014that I have seen electric trucks being put together, too, and I know that there is an electric bus being trialled at this stage in Wellington. I went to the place where this is being manufactured in San Francisco\u2014by a New Zealander, I should say, Mr Ian Wright, who is one of the founders of Tesla, by the way; just a plug for New Zealanders in there. I think things like garbage trucks or rubbish trucks are being converted over for electric motors, and what this means, of course\u2014it makes a lot of sense, because they are going out during the day or night and they are coming back again, back to the station. They are not going on long treks anywhere. It would also deal with issues like noise pollution, which I think is a really important thing, particularly in cities, as well as the emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo it all seems to make sense, but I think we just need to learn, sometimes, to crawl before we can run. In this case, we are making steady changes and improvements, and I think we have made some very sensible improvements that do not unduly penalise other road users but do actually give some really great incentives. Living in Auckland, as I do, any chance to be able to use those special lanes would be much welcomed, and may well encourage me down the path, next time I come to buy a vehicle, to move into the electric space. Sitting behind all those other cars, I would just love to be able to whizz by and do so legally. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022 data-id=\u00221b095978d2914611b36c7b24f315517b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b095978d2914611b36c7b24f315517b\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I would just like to thank Minister Collins for waxing lyrical on the periphery of this bill. It was genuinely entertaining\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7683887f72644c6a7fca243d7325e14\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to interrupt the member now and say what I was planning to say if the debate continued, and that is that we have now had half a dozen speeches that have been really good third reading contributions. It would be good, from now on, if people who had lovely third reading contributions could save them for the next sitting day when this bill could be considered. If we just focus on the wee bit that is here, and that is the Committee stage, then we can get on with it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d2537d808954e6cb8492eebc4c521fe\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU\u003C/span\u003E: It would be my pleasure to focus on the specific parts of this legislation. I do look forward to the title debate, because, my goodness me, this is the most stupidly named piece of legislation I have seen in a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EI would like to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to the secondary networks clause, clause 7 of the bill. I am jumping quite far ahead, but it is one of particular interest to me, and I speak in particular about new Subpart 2A in Part 5. I would like to ask the Minister about her understanding of the Electricity Industry Participation Code of 2010, and the lack of reference to that code in this legislation. It is, in my opinion, addressing some of the issues that this bill purports to address, so the Minister\u2019s view on that would be of keen interest to myself\u2014and only to myself, I imagine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EThe other question\u2014and I put it to the Minister with a genuine question mark, because New Zealand First does support this legislation\u2014is the question on the current number of secondary electricity networks in New Zealand right now. What information or what data does the Government have? I put it to the Minister that there is a great big question mark from some of the industry itself on the number of secondary networks out there. Then, of course, the implication of that is if we do not know that number, how many consumers are being serviced by secondary networks? I put it to Minister Collins that that makes this a great opportunity for this feeble bit of legislation to not only address those issues but, moving forward, say what the Government could do with regard to improving reliability of supply and the outcomes for consumers\u2014obviously, in particular, to the two types of secondary networks and the embedded networks within the infrastructure itself. I do hope the Chair will let me respond to some of the Minister\u2019s comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EThis does not do enough, and there is an amount of ambiguity\u2014forgive me, Mr Chair, I am not sure to which part specifically I am speaking\u2014around the use of the bus lanes, for example, for those electric vehicles. It is ambiguous. The identification process is ambiguous, and some previous speakers have very fairly pointed out, Minister, that the lack of identification ability, despite having these wonderful digital cameras, could\u2014and at this stage will\u2014create havoc on the roads. I am particularly interested, as I said, in the secondary networks issue in the new Subpart 2A in clause 7. I do look forward to some clarification on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EActually, while I have got the time, Mr Chair, I will go back to Part 1, because I have got through that quicker than I thought. In new section 129A in Part 1, the new section in clause 6 there, it says: \u201CThe Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority must, before submitting a request to the Minister \u2026\u201D. In reading Part 1 up until that point, there is no clarification whether that means the energy Minister, the Minister of Transport, the Minister of Conservation\u2014so, you know, there is just a clarification issue there, probably, more than anything else. Actually, at this stage, that is all I have to ask of the Minister. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022be29eb1f28634046ade8a4c80054fda4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be29eb1f28634046ade8a4c80054fda4\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a call on this bill, and in doing so I would like to comment particularly on some of the changes made at the Commerce Committee and some of the very good submissions received in respect of electric vehicles. The focus there will be on amendments to section 145 of the Land Transport Act and inserting new section 37A into the Road User Charges Act. Before I get on to those, I just must say I have stuck in my mind a comment from Minister Collins about the potential for the refuse industry to shift to electric vehicles. I have got to say, whenever I think of that particular industry, I think of Tony Soprano. So I have this image of Tony Soprano and the New Jersey mafia leading the way towards a brighter, more sustainable future for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EMoving on from that, can I reflect a little bit on a couple of these changes made at select committee. The first one is new section 37A, inserted into the Road User Charges Act. By and large these seem to be sensible changes, and they relate to giving an exemption to heavy vehicles from road-user charges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022796e1be1abe64864a5658143fb4baaf0\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Electric vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b9c52ce9aff43b4b0b01097ce3a3993\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: That is right, that is right\u2014heavy electric vehicles. I guess there are just a couple of things I want to comment on. The first is the change made in select committee to section 37A(1A), which I think just makes the fairly common-sense but useful addition that when the Minister is making this recommendation\u2014that these vehicles may be exempted from road-user charges\u2014that the Minister does need to show that they are satisfied that the purpose of that will support the uptake of those vehicles. Just wearing my Regulations Review Committee hat, I think it is really important, when we do hand these powers to Ministers through the legislation like this, particularly when it is a power that directly relates to the economic incentives within an industry\u2014it is effectively an impost being applied to some people and not applied to others\u2014that we do put some onus on Ministers to actually demonstrate that there is a tangible benefit that is linked to the purposes of the original Act. So I thought that that was a sensible and constitutionally appropriate addition for the select committee to make to that. Perhaps one question for the Minister would just be what her expectation might be of the kind of evidential basis that we might expect to see from a Minister in showing that they are satisfied with that. I think sometimes we can be a bit light and airy with these things. Again, there are real impacts on an industry and on businesses. It would be good to get some satisfaction from the Minister that when these decisions are made there is some evidence on the table to base them upon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe second thing related to section 37A, and the changes made in select committee are that we have clarified, in respect of any orders made under this part of the bill\u2014which will then be an Act, of course\u2014that the period in which the exemption ends must be no later than 31 December 2025. It would just be good to hear from the Minister why exactly we have chosen that date. I can see the purpose in having a date built into the legislation. In subsection (2A)(b) we say that for any orders made subsequently, the date is 5 years after the date on which the period of exemption starts. What is the particular reasoning behind, firstly, 31 December 2025, and, latterly, that 5-year period? I think the reason it is important to get a bit of clarity around those is that the particular kinds of vehicles that we are talking about, heavy electric vehicles, are going to be costly investments for any kind of business\u2014for the Sopranos of Mount Roskill, or whoever it is\u2014to make. We are talking about $100,000-plus vehicles, easily, and I think it is really important that we are able to give some certainty to those people that the period of exemption has some sort of rational basis and has not just been plucked out of thin air. So if we could hear from the Minister about exactly why those dates are the ones that have been inserted at the select committee stage into this legislation, I think that would be really helpful in terms of our consideration of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EMoving on to the changes to the Land Transport Act 1998, we have got some changes made there to section 145 of that Act under clause 17A of this bill. These relate, effectively, to the capacity of local authorities that may choose to go down the route of giving electric vehicles the right to use special purpose lanes, particularly bus lanes. This goes to their ability to actually be able to enforce that, and of course that is pretty important, because it is all very well for this Parliament to say that something should happen or say that local authorities should or can do something, but if they do not actually have any realistic capacity to enforce it, then that is pretty pointless. I do want to go on and just talk a little bit shortly about some of the submissions received about, possibly, the utility of this whole area of the bill that is allowing electric vehicles to use special purpose bus lanes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of the enforcement issue, we received a number of very good submissions. I thought particularly it is worth taking a moment to have a look at the Ministry of Transport submission in respect of what the implications might be for electric vehicles using special vehicle lanes. What the ministry identifies in its submissions is that there are a number of additional steps that are going to need to be gone through here. Of course, we are talking about the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) here, and if I think about Auckland, for example, this means the bus lanes not on arterial roads like Dominion Road, but potentially on such roads as the northern expressway or, potentially\u2014if we ever get it, and let us pray that we do\u2014a bus lane on the Northern Busway. So, actually, the kinds of busways that the Ministry of Transport is talking about here in its submissions are amongst the most important ones to get this right on, because they are the ones that have huge capacity. Now more than half of the vehicles crossing the Auckland Harbour Bridge come across on the Northern Busway, so we have got to get this stuff right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThere was a question put by the select committee about the cost of installing cameras for enforcement of NZTA-controlled special vehicle lanes, and the ministry identified the costs involved for automatic enforcement solutions\u2014costs that included cameras, infrastructure, communications, applications, installation, staffing, and back-office systems. So we are talking about a pretty significant outlay, and I do have a bit of a concern here that in putting these provisions in here we are not necessarily thinking through the next step\u2014not only whether it is desirable but, if it is desirable, whether it is even particularly practical for the road-controlling authorities, be they NZTA or the local authorities, to go down this track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe other question I did have for the Minister of Energy and Resources\u2014and I am hoping that it is just an area that I am not too familiar with and she can answer it fairly simply\u2014relates to clause 17, which replaces section 22AB(1)(r) and has been inserted by the select committee. In that text, it talks about\u2014let me just read it out\u2014\u201Cprescribing, subject to the marking of lanes on the roadway, that on any road any traffic lane may be used or any turning movement may be made only by vehicles of specified classes or vehicles carrying specified classes of loads or no fewer than a specified number of occupants:\u201D. What I just want to confirm with the Minister in the chair is that the purpose of this bill is to ensure that electric vehicles can potentially gain access, if a local authority chooses to go down that road. But by defining it as \u201Cspecified classes\u201D, does that potentially open it up further for a local authority to make other exemptions? So if we could get some clarity from the Minister around that, that would be very helpful, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn coming to the end of my comments in this area, I do want to reflect on this whole area of the bill. It is probably the most contentious one. The Opposition is not opposing the bill on the basis of this, and that is probably because we are making it optional for local authorities, rather than compulsory. I suspect there would be some far firmer speeches and a greater degree of opposition if we had made these provisions compulsory. But we do wonder about the utility of them. We received some very, very good submissions. There is one here from the Bus and Coach Association, which notes that when Norway did go down the route of doing this\u2014and Norway is put up as an example of why we should allow electric vehicles into bus lanes\u2014it made congestion worse. It made congestion worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EProbably the very best submission of all came from the Auckland Regional Public Health Service. It also noted that point, and it noted that in every single case it has looked at\u2014and it looked at the case of T\u0101maki Drive, where Auckland Council was pressured to make it a T2 or T3 lane. Every single time you go down this track of allowing additional vehicles into bus lanes, no matter what the other public policy objectives are, you make congestion worse, not only for people in the bus lanes but for everyone else. You actually defeat the fundamental purpose of those bus lanes. Of course, those bus lanes not only reduce congestion but make for a healthier and cleaner city as well. I do not think many local authorities are going to take up that option, for this reason. We support this bill, but it would be good to hear some answers from the Minister on those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022 data-id=\u00222c1783a6ba024a4cae28f70635489993\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c1783a6ba024a4cae28f70635489993\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. It is my pleasure to take a call in this Committee stage debate on the Energy Innovation (Electric Vehicles and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I just want to highlight that this bill aims to encourage energy innovation, so I commend those on the Commerce Committee who have heard submissions. I do have a question for the Minister in the chair\u2014but a little preamble before I get there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI am particularly interested in new section 22AB(1)(r), inserted by clause 17 in Part 3, as my colleague Michael Wood has previously quoted. It really is from the departmental disclosure statement about the empowerment through this piece of legislation of road-controlling authorities to enable electric vehicles as well as plug-in hybrid vehicles that operate on a combination of externally charged batteries or petrol or diesel motor to be able to use what are currently designated as lanes for trucks, buses, or cars that have multiple occupants. I think the aspiration within this bill is really about increasing the number of electric vehicles we have in New Zealand. Currently we have 2,000, and I know there is an aspiration that by 2021 there will be 64,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI have found it interesting, looking at the history of electric vehicles, and please bear with me. The first electric vehicle was created in 1832 by Scottish inventor Robert Anderson. It is really interesting, because in 1899 electric vehicles were seen as being the car of the future. Having had a look at the history in 1900, the electric automobile in its heyday\u2014so, of 4,192 cars produced in the United States, 20 percent were powered by electricity. By 1920, however, there was a decline because of the viability of electric vehicles. The electric car\u2019s downfall was attributed to a number of factors, including the desire for longer-distance vehicles, their lack of horsepower, and the readily available gasoline. In the 1970s we saw a re-emergence of electric vehicles because of soaring prices of oil\u2014from the Arab oil embargo of 1973. Also then there was the emergence of environmental issues and the quest to look at and explore the viability of electric vehicles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EIn February of 2009 the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 allocated $2 billion for the development of electric vehicle batteries and related technologies. The Department of Energy added another $400 million to fund building the infrastructure necessary to support plug-in electric vehicles. Just to finish this contribution from this particular research, the challenges are seen as being price\u2014as my colleague Sue Moroney has highlighted\u2014limited battery life and travel range, and building charging stations and other infrastructure to support electric vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003ESo I have seen that in New Zealand we have 20 charging stations\u2014I may be wrong. There is an aspiration to have another 80 by December next year. That costs approximately $60,000 per charging station. So we need an investment of $4.8 million, and it seems the private sector is putting its hand up. I have seen a press release from BMW and ChargeNet. Their aspiration is to create a network from Kaitaia to Invercargill. We have two pure electric vehicles on sale in New Zealand. They are the BMW i3 and the Renault Zoe. These charging stations apparently can charge a vehicle to 80 percent in 20 minutes, for a cost of $14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EWhere I am going with this question is that I am aware of a trial\u2014and this is what I would like the Minister to answer\u2014in March of this year for 2 weeks on five motorway on-ramps and off-ramps in Auckland. In Auckland we have registered 1,033 electric vehicles, and so before, I guess, implementing this piece of legislation we wanted to actually look at whether or not the intention of that new section 22AB(1)(r), inserted by clause 17 in Part 3, was going to be utilised by those who own electric vehicles. From what I have been able to ascertain, Auckland Transport also said we need an information campaign, because people need to know that the vehicles that are using those special lanes for trucks, buses, and cars with multiple occupants need some sort of sticker, I think, so that the public becomes aware of why these cars are cruising down in lanes that actually have been reserved for those purposes. The New Zealand Transport Agency was to survey the owners of electric vehicles, and I am really interested in the results. I am hoping that the Minister has those\u2014that was in March this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EIt was quite interesting to note that organisations like Mercury Energy have 42 electric cars\u2014these are of those 1,033 registered electric vehicles in Auckland\u2014Vector has 12, and Air New Zealand has 75, and it seemed that Air New Zealand was the one who was going to maximise that 2-week trial, and so I am very interested to know. So if the Minister could provide that information I think it would justify the inclusion of this particular amendment to the Land Transport Act of 1998 in this particular piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EJust finally, I would like to do a bit of a shout-out to a man called Toa Greening, who is a resident of Manurewa. Toa came to see me in 2014 because he had this aspiration to bring a Tango model MINI electric vehicle, which at that time was priced at $230,000, but if somebody\u2014I think he was hoping it would be Wellington City Council\u2014was going to order 2,000 of these electric vehicles he could have got the price down to $29,000. I know Toa has been very active in this area, and, in fact, in 2015 Auckland Transport put out a tender for a partner operator for a citywide car-sharing scheme that utilised plug-in electric vehicles. What they were wanting to do was to, obviously, increase the demand of traffic on our roads, and increase the uptake of those who were willing to buy electric vehicles. They initially wanted a fleet of 200 to 300 cars. They envisaged 350 charging stations across the city. They had nine proposals. But I believe\u2014and maybe the Minister can answer this question\u2014that tender was never filled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EAuckland Transport has been active in this space for a few years. I think it is working with Cityhop to increase the number of electric vehicle users, which is a good thing. The reality of the situation that we are facing into the future is that we cannot be reliant on fossil fuels, so any work that we can do to encourage the purchasing of electric vehicles\u2014I personally do not have an electric vehicle. I have had a look at what a Mitsubishi Outlander would cost and I think it is about 80 grand. So maybe when I am looking at updating my car, I will look at those options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EIn some ways I do think that that provision in the legislation, new section 22AB(1)(r), inserted by clause 17 in Part 3, will encourage people to purchase electric vehicles, particularly if you live in South Auckland and are trying to get into the Auckland CBD\u2014if I can use a car lane that only trucks, buses, and those with high-occupancy vehicles can use, it will be an incentive for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EBut I am just wanting to be reassured, as the House is, Minister, from the research and the evidence that it has actually been successful\u2014that particular trial that I highlighted. If there is any information, I think it will be wonderful if you shared that with the House tonight, because not only am I interested and my colleagues here in the House but I think anybody listening to this debate will want to make sure that the provisions in this legislation and the changes to legislation are actually being done for reasons that have some evidence behind them\u2014we are not just window dressing, but, actually, we do have some compelling evidence to say that there is some efficacy in these proposals, given that it is one of the specific changes that this piece of legislation will empower. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022973790a080a24349b4c0b8b6e928809e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022973790a080a24349b4c0b8b6e928809e\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Before I seek the call, I would like to seek leave for the vote on Part 3 to be taken separately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00220e34c8f6615d431f8323fa6d4307db2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e34c8f6615d431f8323fa6d4307db2b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for the question on Part 3 to be taken as a separate vote. The Green Party is seeking leave to do that. Is there any objection to that course of action? There is no objection. That will happen when we come to the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u002226f2882facc642c383dbe776194a6624\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226f2882facc642c383dbe776194a6624\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to rise to support Parts 1, 2, and 4 of this bill but note the Green Party\u2019s opposition to Part 3, which I am glad the Committee can take a separate vote on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis legislation is called the Energy Innovation (Electric Vehicles and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. The other matters are pretty uncontroversial: we support the idea that the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority (EECA) should be able to access other energy-related levies. It was perhaps not the best way to structure it\u2014that it specifically looked at only electricity levies. It makes sense to wrap it all in one organisation so we have a true leadership position in the New Zealand economy, working with businesses no matter what the energy is. Obviously, if you are looking at electrons or kilowatt hours of electricity, you do not discern where it comes from: gas, renewables, etc. It makes sense; equally so when it comes to the gas levy and when it comes to the \u201Csecondary networks\u201D definition, which is contained in those Parts 1, 2, and 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIt is the electric vehicles part that the Green Party does have considerable opposition to. We heard, from numerous submitters to the Commerce Committee, concerns that the encouraging or allowing of electric vehicles in bus lanes could be detrimental both to bus lanes and also to wider public transport outcomes. To summarise, basically, many of our bus lanes are full up with buses, and if you put electric vehicles in them as well, particularly as buses pull in and pull out as they drop off passengers\u2014the risk is that if you add more vehicles to it, you are just simply going to clog up the bus lane and it is going to be less effective at doing its primary purpose, which is moving a large number of passengers on the buses around our towns and cities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe big debate that we also heard in the select committee was around the enforcement of the bus lanes. This was quite a wide debate that we heard, and we canvassed some evidence internationally on how you can signal whether a car is, in fact, an electric vehicle or not. Other countries have different coloured licence plates, different stickers, or other forms of identification. The concern we had is that there would be a bit of a dilemma facing councils that would want to minimise non-electric vehicles using bus lanes if they, through a by-law, made the bus lanes available to electric vehicles. It is twofold. We do not want to see those massive congestion issues, but, secondly, we also do not want people free-riding without an electric vehicle, taking advantage of the, I guess you could consider it, perk or advantage. The problem is that people could get quite upset if they saw the other vehicle in front of them and they knew it was not an electric vehicle or could not easily identify that it was an electric vehicle, and you could get road rage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI gave a personal example. I live quite close to a very high-traffic bus lane in Wellington, and the council often has cameras erected out the front to try to photograph those cars taking advantage of or abusing the bus lane. But what we heard from the officials is that it is going to be at the councils\u2019 expense. If you go to any local government event anywhere up and down the country, a key message you hear is that this Parliament gives new obligations, new costs, to local government without the ability to actually raise extra revenue. I think it is a quite legitimate concern they have, and here we are yet again bringing in another obligation. There is not an easy way to stop that free-riding or that dilemma if you do not have those identifications. That is why we have got a concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIf you were going to be promoting electric vehicles, which is, ostensibly, the objective of the energy innovation bill, there are a range of other measures you would look at. What we heard in the select committee was that putting electric vehicles in the bus lanes might have a marginal difference, but it is very much on the margins; it is not the most effective thing you could do if you truly wanted to drive a step change in the adoption of electric vehicles. It has been fantastic in New Zealand to see their growth from about 700, maybe 3, 4, 5 years ago, to more than 3,000, as we heard recently. That is fantastic, but that is a drop in the bucket. I believe there are around 70,000 new vehicle imports we have in some months\u2014record numbers of vehicle imports and a drop in the bucket when you look at what other developed nations are seeing with the growth of electric vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI was in California recently, where the state does not offer just access to high-occupancy vehicle lanes\u2014now, remember, these are very different to bus lanes, which often only go for a small amount of time, except for the high-occupancy vehicle lanes. In California, there are two dedicated lanes for multiple-passenger vehicles. There you also get a $10,000 state credit, a $5,000 federal tax credit, huge amounts of cash investment, not just access to high-occupancy vehicle lanes, and they have got around 3 to 5 percent, if my memory serves me correctly. In the Netherlands, I understand it is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295545a4264fa4d3492fd5783502fc8c3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6747f85cf864e0aacc21d327b739eb9\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: \u20143 percent, the Minister informs me. In the Netherlands, we see a penetration of around 17 percent. In fact, Germany\u2019s and the Netherlands\u2019 Parliaments are having debates about whether, in fact, petrol- and combustion-driven engines should be prohibited in the coming decade, which is phenomenal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ESo other countries are putting much more significant promotion measures and also more significant sticks\u2014for want of a better word\u2014in terms of forward planning and signalling an end to legal sales of combustion motors, but also much higher petrol and fuel excise taxes and other forms of feebate measures. So when you look around the world, there is a whole bunch of other initiatives, from infrastructure, electric charging, to tax credits, to sticks as well. In New Zealand we limit it, basically, to elimination from the road-user charge and, possibly, if councils enact it through a by-law, access to the bus lanes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EMy fear is that because we are loading it all on to councils, they are going to face pressure from electric-vehicle owners to open up the bus lanes and then the councils are also going to be required to pay for all the enforcement costs. We heard, in the committee, that we could be talking in the order of tens of thousands of dollars when you look at the camera technology, the staff costs from people, literally, sitting on the side of the road\u2014in 2017; the 21st century\u2014looking at the vehicles and watching. You are going to have to take photographs, to scan their licence plate number through the national database because there is no sticker, there is no coloured licence plate, there is no easy identifier. So it is going to be quite difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe Green Party absolutely supports the intent of promoting electric vehicles. We have launched a number of policies over a number of years, from investing in modern State high infrastructure, from rolling out a network of fast-charging stations, from fringe benefit tax changes, which are going to drive that corporate procurement, which is going to drive that second-hand car market\u2014probably the most effective thing this Parliament could be doing if it wanted to truly drive a step change\u2014through to a cash rebate of $1,000 etc. So, while we are talking about energy innovation, we should be talking about the truly innovative steps we could be making, not this, and that is why we are voting against Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhen you look at the other parts\u2014the gas levies, the Energy (Fuels, Levies, and References) Act amendment changes, and the \u201Csecondary networks\u201D definition\u2014this is not innovative. We heard that again in the committee. There were other steps this Parliament could be taking to adopt that, at a time of huge disruption and change, when you look at the global energy industry. Recently, I was fortunate enough to meet with an official from New York, where their Reforming the Energy Vision, the REV strategy, which they are rolling out in that state, is truly bringing transformative change to their energy sector. By prioritising energy efficiency and conservation and smart technologies, they are actively reducing greenhouse gas emissions. I will give you Seattle as another example, where I have met with officials. At a time when they are the fastest-growing city in the US, they have, in fact, seen an energy consumption decline of around 13 percent, because their state and federal policies have driven their utilities to invest in energy efficiency and conservation measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhen I recently launched a paper about how getting to 100 percent renewables could look, from some consultants from the Rocky Mountain Institute, what they found is that energy-efficiency measures cost in the order of 0.6c per kilowatt hour. Compare that, a negawatt\u2014using less electricity\u2014with 8c or more per kilowatt hour for new generation. And that is very cheap comparatively, internationally, for new hydro and new wind generation\u2014an order of magnitude cheaper for new efficiency and conservation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThese are the measures we should be debating instead of just the definition of secondary networks as they relate to, say, an apartment building. We should be having the conversation about how we can get solar panels on apartments, how we can get that apartment car-park using electric vehicles to feed in and discharge into the local electricity grid and to access cheaper hydroelectricity, which is often flowing at night, at close to negative prices, or charging during the day from solar panels on top of the apartment or a nearby business. If we could do that, if we could harness a distributed battery network through a network of, literally, hundreds of thousands of electric vehicles, we could be saving consumers money with the peak electricity costs, which drives the average wholesale cost, which flows through to consumers. We could be reducing the need for coal and oil to be burnt at peak times. It is a fantastic opportunity for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ESo, look, we welcome Parts 1, 2, and 4 of this legislation, but we will be voting against Part 3 because we fear it is going to damage public transport in New Zealand, and if we looked across the range of initiatives this Parliament could be debating to truly encourage electric vehicles, this is not the place you would look.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022abb2b65c97d54a509196f2449dbd1c4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abb2b65c97d54a509196f2449dbd1c4f\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E There are a couple of things I want to say about this bill, but if you give me 30 seconds\u2014we have a brand that we take to the world. It is clean, green, \u201C100% Pure\u201D. It is about innovation in this space that allows us to make a difference, and I would just like to reiterate what Gareth Hughes and a number of my colleagues have said: we need to be innovative in this space if we really want to be seen to live the brand that is worth a substantial amount of money to our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI just think we could have been a whole lot more innovative in this space, and I think we actually need to be, not just from a pure \u201Clet\u2019s save the world\u201D approach. I think we actually need to be innovative in this space because our brand is worth\u2014well, I know it was valued 12 years ago at $20 billion a year, and if we are not seen as leaders in this, then it slowly erodes our global leadership position in anything to do with clean, green, \u201C100% Pure\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe irony is that a former energy Minister, when he announced this sort of stuff, turned up in a huge big ministerial BMW that drinks diesel faster than my fire engine, announced\u2014[Interruption] that is really fast, I tell you\u2014an energy-saving method, and then jumped back in his BMW and raced off again. I just think that the Government should be really walking the walk on this and not just talking the talk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EBut what I would like to talk about, first and foremost\u2014or secondly\u2014is Part 2. Now, we have heard a lot about electric vehicles\u2014how it will work, how it will not work\u2014the pitfalls of this bill, the advantages and disadvantages, and what we could have done better, but there has been something snuck in here that I think we need to just tease out a little bit more, and this is about the applying of a levy and how this is going to work. Part 2 actually amends the Energy (Fuels, Levies, and References) Act 1989, and it is about charging a levy for the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority (EECA). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ENow, the amendments, we are told, are necessary so that EECA can use its levy funding for a full range of activities. At the moment, the EECA levy comes off the electricity users, but what it is seeking to do is spread the levy across electricity, transport fuels, and gas consumers. At the moment, the total amount EECA can levy is set by Cabinet, and it is currently at $17.5 million. The allocation of the levy will be spread across three sources, and that will be determined by the Minister, based on advice from EECA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI just would not mind knowing the efficacy of this advice, or what sort of advice it is going to put in front of the Minister. I mean, this is a pretty big call. We all know EECA from the ads that it runs on television, and, by and large, it does a good job, I do believe. But there are some little fishhooks in here that I think we need to tease out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI am looking at new subsection (2A), inserted by clause 11\u2014this is an amendment to section 14\u2014and it says: \u201CDespite subsections (1) and (2),\u201D\u2014this is from the primary piece of legislation\u2014\u201Clevies recovered under sections 23 and 24 may be applied for the purpose of meeting a portion of the costs \u2026\u201D. Now, whenever I see in a bill \u201Cmay\u201D or \u201Cmust\u201D, you know there is a little bit of ambiguity. \u201CMust\u201D is an absolute\u2014it has to happen; OK? There is no wiggle room there; it absolutely has to happen. When I see the word \u201Cmay\u201D, I know there is a little bit of ambiguity, and it always raises questions. Under what circumstances will these levies be applied for the purpose of meeting a portion of those costs? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the Minister responsible for this piece of legislation has left. I am unsure whether the Minister in the chair at the moment, Scott Simpson, is over this bill. I suspect he is not, and I do not blame him, because it is not his portfolio area. However, it would be good to know under what circumstances these levies will be applied. When we talk about meeting a portion of the costs, again, I know that sometimes you have got to leave a little bit of wiggle room there, but what portion of the costs are we talking about? There is sufficient ambiguity in this clause to actually raise some questions that it would be good to have the answers to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI go down to new section 14A, inserted by clause 12, and it talks about the \u201CEnergy Efficiency and Conservation Authority\u201D\u2014EECA\u2014\u201Cconsultation about request for appropriation\u201D. What this talks about is that before EECA submits a request to the Minister about an appropriation of money, it must consult. It must consult with the people who are liable to pay the levy, and it must consult with any other representatives, or any other persons, who EECA believes are significantly affected by the levy. Then what EECA must do, when the request is submitted, is \u201Creport to the Minister on the outcome of that consultation.\u201D I suppose the question this brings up is: what will the level of consultation be? The other question, which I think it is very relevant, is: will the Minister take account of this consultation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe reason I ask this is that what EECA is required to do here is consult with those whom it is going to take money off, and my initial impression is if an agency or a body or a Minister or a Government department is going to take money off a sector, then I suspect the level of consultation will go something like this: \u201CCan we have more money?\u201D, \u201CNo, go away.\u201D, \u201CThank you very much.\u201D Now, I am being a little bit glib here\u2014of course I am\u2014but what I am saying is that an industry body, or an industry advocacy group, like EECA, has to build an incredibly powerful business case before key players are going to accept a body taking money from them to be used to drive efficiency in an area where they make a whole lot of money, if you get my point here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ESo what I would really like to know\u2014and, again, it is difficult with the Minister in the chair\u2014is whether this is just consultation because we say they must consult. If so, what is the Minister going to do with this consultation? If, in fact, the result of the consultation is that we think that EECA has enough money, we think it does not need any more to deliver on its purpose, and we do not want to give it any more money, is the Minister then going to say: \u201CWell, I\u2019ve heard that consultation, it\u2019s all very well\u2014we\u2019re now going to charge you a little bit more money.\u201D This is the concern I always have when I hear about consultation with industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI have no doubt that EECA will approach the consultation in a proactive way. I mean, it would be mad not to. I would hate to cast aspersions on EECA\u2019s credibility, because I think it does a good job\u2014I just want to put that on the table\u2014but consulting with people you want to take money off is always a little bit fraught with difficulty, and it does actually bring up conflicts of interest, I suppose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI would also like to talk about gas levies. This was something that was snuck in there as well. What has happened at the moment is that gas levies are charged, and what we were told by officials is that the ability to collect these levies is difficult. They believe there has been under-collection by a significant amount, but the portion of levies compared with revenue is actually very, very small. But it is difficult. So what they have said is: \u201CLook, there\u2019s an easier way to collect this levy.\u201D, and it just means that the retailers will collect it, and this bill sets out how they are going to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EBut we brought up, at the select committee, a concern we had, and that is whenever Parliament says to an industry or a group of consumers or companies: \u201CWe are mandating you or we are requiring you to collect a levy.\u201D, often a sector can use that as an excuse to increase the cost of that good or service to the consumer. What we did hear from officials is that the amount of the increase in the levy to the consumer is actually minuscule. I think we are talking about $2 million over the sector. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is about $2 million over the sector. So it is not much at all\u2014for every consumer it is a fraction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhat we will be very concerned about\u2014no, no; \u201Cconcerned\u201D is the wrong word. What we expressed concern about and what we have said we will keep a very close eye on is whether the industry actually uses this as an excuse to increase the amount that it charges to the consumer for its gas. What we heard is there is no reason why they would do that, because the amount is so little that it just would make no difference to the average bill\u20140.001 percent or something. If the gas companies do increase the price to the consumer, then we are going to take a good hard look at that and we are going to make sure that they do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EBut the interesting thing about this\u2014and I am a little bit confused about this, and I should not be, because I was on the committee\u2014is that, as section 23(3), in clause 13, says: \u201Cthe levy is not payable on, and a return is not required to include,\u2014(a) piped gas of a prescribed type; or (b) piped gas that is to be used for a prescribed purpose.\u201D I am not too sure what a \u201Cprescribed type\u201D is, or whether what will happen is that there will be something in the schedule that will outline what a prescribed type is or what a prescribed purpose is so in fact the levies do not have to be collected. Unfortunately, I did not get the main piece of legislation, so perhaps it is in there. But it is always a little bit difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe other thing, also, is clause 14, which amends section 33. New subsection (1A) talks about regulations made under subsection (1). What this is talking about is formulas for calculating or methods of calculating the levy rates. I know I have got a couple of seconds, and I am probably going to run out of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u002225cc2bd9f4df442cbaec1a3b71f192f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225cc2bd9f4df442cbaec1a3b71f192f5\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would also like to touch on the points made by the honourable member Stuart Nash regarding the amendments to consultations, which is clauses 3 to 6 and clauses 8 to 15. I guess it has always been a vexed issue as to what happens with levies, and the ownership and governance when those levies are collected, and how they are actually spent. I think we share some of the concerns around the adequate and appropriate level of consultation, if it is just token.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI note that in New Zealand we do not have the strong energy community advocacy groups that are so prominent overseas. In other countries they have very professional organisations that can have a statutory or even a semi-judicial function to advocate for their consumers, which we do not have in New Zealand. I would note it is publicly available that there were four submitters principally opposed to the use of levies to fund the activity of the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority. (EECA): the Major Gas Users Group, Business New Zealand, the Major Electricity Users\u2019 Group, and the Motor Industry Association.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI guess our fear is that these professional and coordinated and organised groups could present a predominant or an overwhelming response in the consultation. We cannot just leave it up to Grey Power to advocate for energy consumers in New Zealand, I guess is my main point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI would also point out to those organisations that in many respects they are the beneficiaries of the work of EECA. Every consumer, big or small, business or residential, in New Zealand benefits when we invest in energy efficiency and conservation. Perhaps part of the problem in New Zealand\u2014and when you look at a recent OECD report, we have in fact got one of the lowest energy intensity ratings in the entire developed world because we use energy less efficiently than most other countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIt might not sound like much, but effectively we are burning and throwing away billions of dollars, if you listen to the former chief executive officer, Mike Underhill, in terms of energy that we are using or burning that we do not have to. What I would prefer is if we had a true public conversation around investing in EECA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI note the officials\u2014in response to some of those groups that were opposed even to the idea of a levy to fund some of EECA\u2019s activities. But it only funds less than half of EECA\u2019s work. I think if these businesses were looking at some of their international peers, they would be more actively engaged in supporting the work of EECA and seeing the levy not as a cost to their bottom line but as an investment that is benefiting their bottom line. With such low energy intensity, New Zealand businesses are less competitive vis-\u00E0-vis other countries, because we are spending more on getting oil to New Zealand, burning oil less efficiently, paying more for electricity than we have to, and investing in equipment and plant and product that are less efficient than overseas competitors. We cannot keep competing if this is going to be the case. So I urge those organisations to get behind it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis is a huge missed opportunity, over previous years, but also a huge low-hanging fruit for New Zealand. I have got a true vision, that we could be investing in energy, efficiency, and conservation\u2014not seeing it as a \u201Cnice-to-have\u201D or a marginal benefit or a side occupation. This should be at the heart of New Zealand\u2019s energy policy, because this is going to target the true energy poverty issues that we see in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhen we invest only in business-targeted approaches, through the bulk of EECA\u2019s work, I think it is quite legitimate, as Stuart Nash questioned, as to who is actually going to be dominating those consultations. What we have seen in recent years is EECA moving away from the large-scale huge benefit programmes\u2014for example, the Warm Up New Zealand scheme, which insulated 300,000 homes and did not have any of the problems that the Australian energy efficiency scheme had with its insulation roll-out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EMove away from these mass, huge benefit programmes towards more business-targeted approaches we see\u2014for example, investing in boilers, which is good work but this has become the bulk of EECA\u2019s work. What I would like to see is the ability for this consultation to be true and appropriate by involving consumers. Despite having insulated 300,000 homes, we know there are more than, say, 700,000 substandard homes. In New Zealand we have got 40,000 trips being made by kids to hospital every year as a result of cold, damp housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221829f9a79cca4e3e8488e66cd43db322\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Come back\u2014come back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022573765eeba0842ec835d26bed57bed30\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: So when you are looking at clauses 3 to 8, it is important that the consultation is adopted appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u002246f5188180754bc4aab2a2cb8b1b6f9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246f5188180754bc4aab2a2cb8b1b6f9a\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (Third Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc2de47e7d5249aebb9bb9f4c2e50179\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc2de47e7d5249aebb9bb9f4c2e50179\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, because I did have a little bit more to say on the gas levies. The thing about this is that I know we are going to come to the title and commencement\u2014no; we are taking it as one question, are we not? This is actually coming into play on 1 July 2017, so we are not very far, but I am assuming it will receive the Royal assent before then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EBut my point is that there is actually a change in the way that these levies are collected. If we have a look at new section 23, in clause 13, it talks about gas levies. What is required is that the retailers have to report to the secretary on a quarterly basis. This has been well signalled, and I think the officials have consulted with the retailers and so they knew this was coming\u2014of that there is no doubt. But we have seen, in a number of bills, the implementation period pushed out a little bit to allow certain industries or companies or organisations to actually get their systems in order, which would allow them to report in a timely manner\u2014to change their systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhat I am a little unsure of is\u2014I am making an assumption here that the gas retailers, because this has changed, now have all the systems set up that will actually allow them to report in a way that is meaningful. As mentioned, the reason why we have made this change is simply that the ability to collect the levy under the old scheme was non-existent. It was very difficult to police. There was absolutely no suggestion of dishonesty or fraud or anything like that; it was just that it was so difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWe believe that the officials did not have the men and women on the ground to allow them to undertake this. The companies found it just too hard. So we have actually made it a lot easier. But we have got to make sure that we do not transfer a problem we did have, which was that it was too difficult, to the organisations that we are mandating to collect this. So I just hope that they have got the systems in place that will allow them to really hit the ground running. I must admit, this is one of the few bills where I have read about a required change in system or software, where we have said that from the day it receives the Royal assent or from 1 July this industry must comply with something that I am assuming is going to take a database or a software change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would like to talk about is the regulations\u2014this is clause 14 now, on page 6\u2014amending the prescribing levy rates. The thing that, again, concerns me a little bit, and I think we are seeing a little bit of a move to this, is \u201CRegulations made under subsection (1) may\u201D\u2014this is clause 14(1A)\u2014\u201C(a) specify the periods for which the amounts or rates of the levies apply; and (b) include, in any prescribed method of calculating or ascertaining amounts or rates of the levies, provisions relating to any shortfall in recovering or over-recovery \u2026\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ESo, I suppose my question is again\u2014under what conditions or circumstances would the regulations change the periods for which amounts or rates of the levies apply? What we are actually saying here is that under regulation you can change the time period, so it does not have to come back through Parliament. You can also change under regulation the amount that the levy is, which does, in fact, give the Minister, I believe, quite a bit of power. I sort of wonder, when I see these things, whether, in fact, it provides a level of uncertainty in the market place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAgain, I am not suggesting that a Minister would do this without a level of consultation, without a very good reason, or certainly without mandating the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority to go out, or officials to go out, and consult. But what it is saying here is that, under regulations, a Minister can actually change the amount of the levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ENow, that gives the Minister a little bit of power and I, again\u2014unfortunately the Minister responsible for this bill, Judith Collins, is not in the chair. I am not too sure whether the Minister there at the moment, Scott Simpson\u2014I know he is busy reading his phone, and there is no doubt important stuff on there. But I am just wondering whether he has any idea, or any thoughts, or even within his current portfolios\u2014under what conditions he may decide to change that levy through regulation. I just think it is good practice if you are changing something as big as this\u2014and there certainly is a levy, which is a form of taxation, let us be honest. If that sort of stuff comes through the House, through amendments and legislation, it just provides a level of transparency that I think is important when you are changing a levy, a tax, or the terms and conditions under which that levy or tax is applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EBut apart from that, we support the bill. There are some good things here. It could have been more innovative but\u2014let us leave it at that. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022287b34e708124cbf9bff9fbab890dd25\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 28; New Zealand First 12; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 12.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000488\u0022\u003EParts 1, 2, and 4, schedule, and clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000489\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5b0191905ab4315b0f6a580e8eaddb8\u0022\u003ELand Transfer Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269ed2af5a0a14296a04708efb0090d8f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a8bb117f30b4a199c3d53238f2b0543\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3e86f4109c0414c9d1fd4ea8f3093b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3e86f4109c0414c9d1fd4ea8f3093b9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: This is debate on clauses 3 to 8, and schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5b81ed5f93741c8be03aee2908591cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5b81ed5f93741c8be03aee2908591cb\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great pleasure for me to rise to confirm Labour\u2019s support for this great bill. Rarely would we have a piece of legislation that would catch the attention of almost everybody\u2014yes, almost everybody. Buying and selling properties, mortgaging and leasing land, getting the relevant instrument registered, and duly becoming a legal owner would affect almost everybody in New Zealand. In the 21st century we need a new land transfer Act to support this largely electronic system. We need an Act that is accessible and written in plain and modern English. The Law Commission, with the assistance of Land Information New Zealand (LINZ), has drafted such a kind of Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ESome provisions in the 1952 Act have remained and changed from the first Act that was passed to implement the so-called Torrens title system, which is well over 100 years old. A comprehensive review of the Land Transfer Act 1952 is long overdue. The result is a mix of hopelessly outdated and obscure provisions alongside more effective and modern provisions, some reflecting only the paper registration system and others focused on electronic registration, with considerable duplication and lack of clarity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThis is not a simple amendment bill. It will become the new principal Act in this area. It will replace the Land Transfer Act 1952 and the Statutory Land Charges Registration Act 1928, both of which will be repealed by this bill. Most of the content is uncontroversial. It is a major piece of legislation in this policy area, so deserves proper scrutiny by the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EIt is a big day, not only for lawyers, not only for financial institutes\u2014banks, mortgagees, property owners, and, probably, real estate agents; it is a big day for everybody. As the newest new, old member, it is the first time for me to have the opportunity to have a look at the bill itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296a96a5b77a04f76afee3d809ea4bd74\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Welcome back, Raymond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a740be2f5d9d4d9ea684f653d0a1e11b\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! Thank you very much. Immediately, I decided that I like the bill. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Law Commission for such great work to shape and reshape this bill in this current form. When I flick through the bill itself, lots of familiar names emerge, so it gives us a great opportunity for me to say a thankyou to the law commissioner, Professor John Burrows QC; his predecessor, Professor Geoffrey Palmer; the Hon Simon Power; the Hon Maurice Williamson; and the Hon David Cunliffe for their contributions. Over the last two terms, as Labour\u2019s spokesperson for building and construction, I did work very closely with the Hon Maurice Williamson, especially on the Building Amendment Bill (No 3) and Building Amendment Bill (No 4), which duly became the Building Amendment Act 2012 and Building Amendment Act 2013.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EBack to the bill\u2014Part 1, clause 6, \u201CMeaning of fraud\u201D\u2014I believe it is the first time for us to give a legal definition as to what constitutes fraud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022923e85037f9b41bc91ac545999114573\u0022\u003EPaul Foster-Bell\u003C/span\u003E: Mortgage fraud, specifically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1a0815c23354bc39d1de7391b2cd14c\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: Mortgage fraud? Well, I am sure my colleague Phil Twyford will cover that part later on when we come to the specific clauses\u2014[Interruption] Well, if the National members are really passionate about that specific clause, I believe my colleague, together with colleagues from New Zealand First, will contribute more. We will come to that part later on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EComing to \u201Cfraud\u201D\u2014specifically of interest to the National backbenchers\u2014this is the first time for us to have a legal definition, but one thing we need to take note of is submissions from relevant stakeholders such as the New Zealand Law Society, the Auckland District Law Society, and the Bankers\u2019 Association. For instance, the New Zealand Law Society and the Auckland District Law Society submissions assumed that mortgagors would have to do more than is currently required under the LINZ e-dealing certification identity verification standards, and that would in turn mean increased costs for mortgagors, which would be passed on to consumers. We are talking about compliance costs and probably more complicated due process for the relevant parties, including lawyers and conveyancers, to fulfil the requirements under the proposed changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Law Society, in its submission, showed that it is particularly concerned that where a mortgage is executed under power of attorney, the mortgagee would be required to verify the identity of the donor mortgagee, rather than the attorney. This would defeat the purpose of giving someone power of attorney in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EWhat I am talking about is really the balance between the way we are proposing to impose on the relevant parties\u2014as I said, including the conveyancers and the lawyers\u2014to fulfil the requirement under this bill, and also the compliance costs that may be incurred under the strengthened regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EOne thing I am particularly interested in asking the Minister in the chair, Scott Simpson, is what kind of ramifications there would be in the current-day, modern, 21st century electronic system\u2014for instance, the balance between social media and electronic commerce law. Can a videoconference or FaceTime, made available through smartphones, be used to assist with identification verification for the purpose under this bill? Another matter that some conveyancers and lawyers may report would include something like\u2014for instance, in China, its notary public system is different from that in New Zealand. For instance, if we do have a certain piece of form or instrument that needs to be certified, under the notary public system there they simply cannot verify that sort of ID system\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bc7f0f23230476bab70d760ca098ef5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Keep on what is in the bill, on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022506830c9ad394f558287f78af3461dc3\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you, Mr Chair\u2014by getting the necessary signature presented in the form, rather than in a separate attachment. So this is something quite relevant to Part 1, which is, as I said, the first time we do give a legal definition as to what constitutes \u201Cfraud\u201D. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the officials, because the departmental report is probably the very source of information, and it addressed those kinds of issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EBack to the submissions made by the New Zealand Law Society and Auckland District Law Society. All the above submitters agreed that the provisions, if retained, would benefit from amendments to clarify that mortgagees can rely on the existing level of identity verification/authorisation, including records retention, carried out by their lawyer or conveyancer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd4bb0e2995e419b9f75661a34461706\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd4bb0e2995e419b9f75661a34461706\u0022\u003EPEENI HENARE (Labour\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. Thank you very much for this opportunity. I stand in support of the Land Transfer Bill, and I echo some of the sentiments made by my colleague Mr Raymond Huo over many of the technical aspects within this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI want to focus on a couple of things here in the preliminary provisions in Part 1. Under clause 5, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, it says here: \u201C\u00A0\u2018land\u2019 includes\u201D\u2014and you always look for the part that has got the underline. Having replaced \u201Cplants and trees on land\u201D, it says there, \u201Cplants, trees, and timber on or under land\u201D\u2014\u201Con or under land\u201D. I wonder whether this is aimed specifically at the types of industry I see growing particularly in the Far North around swamp kauri. Large holes in the ground up north suggest that many people have now gone in and raided the swamp kauri. They have finally seen the asset and the value in swamp kauri, and I wonder, just from the Minister, whether there can be any more clarification of exactly\u2014when it suggests there \u201Cplants, trees, and timber on or under land\u201D, is that specifically hoping to capture swamp kauri, and if there are any other types of descriptions of \u201Ctimber \u2026 under land\u201D, I would be interested to know what those are, just for the purposes of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe reason I say that is that while we support this bill, it talks in this bill about fraud and the value of land, and the ability to have compensation and how it has to be comparable in so far as people will be able, in compensation, to purchase another land block to the same value. In this particular part, just in the interpretation\u2014\u201Cplants, trees, and timber on or under land\u201D. The value of swamp kauri is huge. I have seen the market grow over the years from my time in the Far North. Once upon a time, swamp kauri meant nothing, and now, all of a sudden, people are actually approaching farmers and landowners to try to harvest the swamp kauri, and, sadly, a lot of the anecdotal evidence, anyway, comes back that there are significant issues in that particular industry. But I digress. I am just trying to seek a little bit more clarification on exactly what that means and what some of the other timbers under land are that we might expect will be covered by this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAlso, I take the point made by my colleague around the departmental disclosure statement, and say just how particularly good I thought the disclosure statement was. This was the result of a lot of great work done by many people, and it says there, in particular\u2014and I think it is worth mentioning\u2014George Tanner and Warren Moyes, who I see, sadly, passed during the progress of this bill. I think it is important to place that on the record in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAs we go through more parts of this particular bill\u2014we have looked at Part 1, around these preliminary provisions. That looks pretty straightforward to me, other than just that particular part under clause 5, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, which says \u201C\u00A0\u2018land\u2019 includes\u2014\u2019, and paragraph (d), as given there. So I will leave that there, and I hope that some of my colleagues on this side of the Chamber will understand\u2014[Interruption] Oh, look, I have no doubt that as we get into the more meaty parts of this bill\u2014it has already been mentioned that it is rather technical\u2014we will debate the merits of \u201Cmortgagee\u201D and, of course, the definition of \u201Cfraud\u201D a little bit later on. But I am very specific with my speech about asking exactly what \u201Ctimber \u2026 under land\u201D means, so I will take my seat now. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6ea230c83e14e07bcc9923836fc2948\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6ea230c83e14e07bcc9923836fc2948\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take this opportunity to speak on this section, being clauses 3 to 8 in Part 1 of the Land Transfer Bill. As was reflected on by my colleague Raymond Huo, this is a substantial and important piece of legislation. I know that when we look at Part 3, the members opposite, who are very engaged in this debate through their comments, are going to be exceptionally pleased to know that we are continuing to maintain the Torrens system of land title in New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a34ae49b8f440edb70a0bca957f0ad6\u0022\u003EPaul Foster-Bell\u003C/span\u003E: Hear, hear!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224641daf04a0440d4a7d382adc86d6930\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and we hear that from them now. I make a bit of a joke of that, but it is important because, you know, what is the Torrens system, for example? When we look at the purpose of the bill\u2014and the purpose of the bill is part of the debate in this section\u2014we need to get this absolutely right. The Torrens system, for what it is worth, is the fundamental system that we have whereby the State retains a register of land. When you actually think about the kind of way in which our economy operates and the absolute importance of people having certainty over who owns which bit of land and what happens when you have a transaction\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6bdb5651f3242a583d61043320b7db8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member. The time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8146ce45e97461791ff511eccb8ed69\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: It is a real pleasure to resume my call on this bill. As I was saying before we left the Chamber, this is a bill that is quite technical in detail\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295c9801e9dd94be7b7a3ff437b936f85\u0022\u003EHon Christopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll get down to the detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9a50c9dd6694c40b477f6bc8b2161ce\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: I know that will bring quivers of delight to some members who are in the Chamber this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EBut it is actually an extremely important bill, and it goes to some really core things at the heart of our society and economy. Everyone who owns a property or plans to transact in a property wants to know that there is certainty of ownership before and after that transaction. One of the things that this bill deals with in that respect and tries to affirm is the Torrens system, which is perhaps relatively unknown but is an extremely important legal principle that we have in respect of property ownership and land transfer in our country and also most other Westminster systems. It is referenced in clause 3 in Part 1 of the bill that, of course, we are talking about at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWhat the Torrens system ensures is that people can have that certainty. It means we have a legally enforceable State-run register of land and you can take it to the bank. You know that if on that register it says that such and such a person owns this bit of land in this place, that is the way it is. If you think that if we did not have that certainty, think about the problems that we would get into. So it is incredibly important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EOne of the really important words that we use when we describe the Torrens system, and it is used, I am pretty sure, at points in this legislation, is the word \u201Cindefeasibility\u201D; it guarantees indefeasible title. It is an extremely high legal test. It basically means it is undefeatable. There is no question about it; that is it. One of the questions I want to get on to in respect of this debate is how we deal with the fact that this bill intends to, and of course we support this, retain the Torrens system\u2014and, again, it is mentioned here in clause 3(a) that we want to continue and maintain the Torrens system of land title in New Zealand, and then in subclause (b) retain \u201Cthe fundamental principles of that system,\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EAt the same time, further on in the bill\u2014and we will have debates on this, I suspect, in Part 2\u2014we are actually intending to create some extremely limited grounds for defeating that principle of indefeasibility. So in cases where there might be manifest injustice, we are saying that that indefeasibility might not apply, it would have to involve the High Court, there are extremely limited grounds for going down that track, and we think that they are probably justifiable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EBut it raises an interesting question in respect of clause 3 in Part 1, where we start by saying that we want to continue and maintain the Torrens system but at the same time, later on in the bill, we are injecting a set of new principles that do, bluntly, somewhat undermine the core indefeasibility at the heart of the Torrens system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EOne of the questions I have for the Minister in the chair is in respect of clause 3, where the Government Administration Committee has made an alteration to the bill. They have added in the wording \u201C(d) by all of the above means, maintains the integrity of title to estates and interests in land.\u201D In the accompanying text, the select committee has said that \u201CFor clarity and certainty, we recommend adding subclause 3(d)\u201D\u2014as I have just described\u2014\u201Cto insert the principle of \u2018maintaining integrity of title to estates and interests in land\u2019. We consider that this inclusion is necessary to safeguard this principle.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe question I have for the Minister in the chair is, is the issue that I have just described the reason that we have felt the need to put in that additional wording to safeguard the principle of the Torrens system? Do we need that additional wording there because we think that changes later on in the bill could potentially create the risk that we are undermining the Torrens system, and does that have unforeseen or foreseen circumstances that we are concerned about? So it would be really good to hear from the Minister in the chair exactly why that wording has been inserted, and if it is about addressing that particular issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EJust in my remaining time, briefly\u2014[Bell rung] Thank you, Mr Chair. The clock was\u2014OK; I will carry on. I will probably take a brief call on this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn terms of some of the other changes that we see from the select committee in this part, I think my colleague Peeni Henare expounded admirably on clause 5(1)(d), the addition of \u201Cplants, trees, and timber on or under land\u201D, and I think he posed some questions to the Minister in the chair that it would be good to hear about as well. I have got a good definition of \u201Cpaper instrument\u201D, which I am sure will put many minds to ease as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EAs I say, our core concern at this point of the debate is that at this very first stage we do tackle this question of the purpose, because if we get the purpose wrong, if we undermine the principles of the Act, we create problems for ourselves a little bit later on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EOne thing I did note in clause 3(d), which I referred to as well, is that the wording does have a shadow of some very important wording in the Tax Administration Act, where at the beginning of the Act we say that one of the things we have to do is maintain the integrity of the system. Within the context of the Tax Administration Act, that, effectively, gives scope to Inland Revenue, as an agency, to undertake a fairly wide range of actions and have wide freedom of movement to ensure that things are kind of done as we think they should be done. So it gives a latitude of operation. Perhaps, again, the Minister in the chair might be able to assist in answering whether that is also part of the intention of the inserted clause 3(d) here. Does it mean that we might see Land Information use this as a bit of a roving tool to ensure that the system does maintain its integrity, perhaps in ways it does not currently as well? So it would be good to hear what is envisaged with that part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI think with that, those are probably the key points I would like to raise in respect of this part, but I look forward to taking further calls on later parts. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00224afe09c83fc34a8f926d912d8c61d28e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224afe09c83fc34a8f926d912d8c61d28e\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the honourable member Michael Wood for his excellent contribution. I will take a call, even though I am simply holding the fort, because this is actually a very important piece of legislation. The member may be interested to know, or maybe not, that I was in Adelaide last week\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c421b3abcf64b34a052bb3d56382871\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: Try me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ea01033178b43c78a3dadb8d87bc6b9\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Probably not. Adelaide, or South Australia, was where the Torrens system was actually invented. There is a Torrens Terrace in Adelaide. The Torrens system was based on a shipping model, actually, and then it went from South Australia to New Zealand and other parts around the globe. I think it is fair to say it is probably the best system of land registration in the world, and we have been very lucky to have it developed over the years here. I think it was a reflection of the fact that when colonisation was taking place, the old English system of exchanging deeds just would not work in a country like ours, so that is why it was introduced. It is obviously, as I said, a real world-beater.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI was interested by the inclusion of clause 3(d) in Part 1. I think it is really nothing more than a belt and braces approach to examining the purpose. I think that is born out in what the Government Administration Committee said in its commentary. It said it recommended the additional clause to insert the principle to safeguard that fundamental principle of the Torrens system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EOf course, Mr Wood did mention the issue of manifest injustice, which is referred to in some detail in clauses 56 and 57. As he knows, the term is not defined. Manifest injustice is referred to in a number of statutes\u2014I can think of the Copyright Act 1994 or the Sentencing Act 2002\u2014but it is one of those terms, I guess, where you know it when you see it. I think the point of not defining it is to avoid placing unnecessary restrictions on the court to look at something in the particular circumstances and say: \u201CThat could well be a manifest injustice.\u201D I am sure that we are going to cover this in greater detail, but the bill\u2019s provisions have been looked at very closely by the select committee, which I think has done a really good job. It has clarified matters to make it clear that fraud does not of itself constitute manifest injustice. The threshold for manifest injustice is very high indeed, and an order that would overturn registration, bearing in mind the principles of the Torrens system, could only be made in exceptional circumstances when compensation would not properly address the injustice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe member raises a number of very good points, and I hope that I have addressed them, as well as interested the Committee on the origins of the Torrens system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228242257846f34fde9e8fa8ec320816e1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows)\u003C/span\u003E: And your trip to Adelaide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cd37f14c5f64d1f8a078ea86386ba61\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: And my trip to Adelaide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022041deb7d3c7e4049a800c38f17b04c31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022041deb7d3c7e4049a800c38f17b04c31\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a short call to bring to a conclusion the point raised by the New Zealand Law Society in its submission, which I could not get addressed in my earlier contribution before the dinner break. Basically, the point raised by the New Zealand Law Society is that it wishes to have amendments to clarify that where a mortgage is executed under a power of attorney, it is the identity of the attorney and not the mortgagor that must be verified. To do otherwise would defeat the purpose of the donor mortgagor giving power of attorney to someone else in the first place. This is a valid point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EWhat I can say from a lawyer\u2019s point of view or from a bank\u2019s point of view is that any lawyers or conveyancers would have implemented a rather robust system in verifying the identity either of the attorney or of the donor mortgagor. If the power of attorney had been prepared or executed by that lawyer who is acting for the particular client on the conveyancing matter, or prepared by some other lawyers, they must have taken the necessary steps in verifying the identity of their respective clients. Likewise, mortgagees\u2014namely, banks, lenders, etc.\u2014are best placed to know their customers, to take reasonable steps to verify the identity of the mortgagor; namely, the borrower.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Law Society in its submission has raised a very valid point\u2014that it is the identity of the attorney, not the donor mortgagor, that must be verified. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u002261e0f866c1f341bd96cf064cddfa3479\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261e0f866c1f341bd96cf064cddfa3479\u0022\u003EMEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. Thank you very much for allowing me to make a short contribution to Part 1 of the Land Transfer Bill. Can I just acknowledge the Hon Minister Finlayson and his explanation of the Torrens system in Part 1, clause 3. I want to acknowledge that he gave us the historic beginning of where the Torrens system came from, and I do believe\u2014and I could be wrong\u2014that he explained that it is a world-class land system. Of course, it is a registration system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EMy question, in terms of Part 1, is actually when you look to clause 4 and talk about the \u201CLand subject to this Act\u201D. Clause 4(d) states: \u201Cland that is, after the commencement of this section, vested in a person for a freehold estate under any other Act, including any Act relating to M\u0101ori land.\u201D Now, it is probably fortuitous, or very opportunist, that we have not only the Attorney-General in the chair but the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, because, as I understand from his sharing to the Committee about the Torrens system, it is a registration system of landownership, it is world class, but in so far as M\u0101ori land is concerned in this country\u2014and the Minister is very familiar with this\u2014there is the communal nature of that land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo the question to the Minister in the chair is whether we believe that the Torrens system, given that we have got perhaps two types of land tenure in this country, is fit for purpose in terms of that land that is held in M\u0101ori communal ownership. I say that again referring only to clause 4(d), where this bill, this particular bill we are debating tonight\u2014the Land Transfer Bill\u2014actually includes and encompasses M\u0101ori land. There, for me, is a bit of a dichotomy in terms of M\u0101ori land: multiple ownership, the registration of it, will have not just one person but multiple persons. It also allows the registration of future owners who have not succeeded to land, so, for me, M\u0101ori land tenure or ownership is regarded in that\u2014it is not, once you have filed you are the owner and that is it, but this evolution of owners who either pass on and then leave the interest, or through genealogy, whakapapa, then their next of kin assume their rights of interest in the land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo this is really going to be the angle on which I am going to make my contribution in the debate on this bill, I say to the Minister in the chair. So, really, the question for me is assuring that he is comfortable that the Torrens system of land title in New Zealand is fit for New Zealand in 2017 and going forward, given the nature of M\u0101ori land and general title land. I just want some assurances, because, like I said, the Minister is also a very hard-working Minister in terms of Treaty negotiations and ensuring that how M\u0101ori classify land and the special relationship with that land is not put at risk by passing this law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EBut, really, what I am curious to know is just the Torrens system of land tenure and its appropriateness to M\u0101ori land ownership in this country. This is a short contribution but something that is very important to this side of the House, to ensure that this bill encompasses\u2014and is allowed and is flexible enough to ensure that M\u0101ori rights, in terms of the communal part, are not undermined by clause 4(d) in this particular Part 1 of this bill. I am looking forward to perhaps the Minister\u2019s response. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa326576bedb4decae2448cbcef3ceea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa326576bedb4decae2448cbcef3ceea\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This is a non-political bill. It is one that I am sure all parties would wish to support. New Zealand First certainly does support it. It has been a long time in development, and I think it will be a great advantage for New Zealand to have it passed, so we will be voting for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220afa1d9b786d43bca3016e5e05b6a1ce\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Denis, I was wrong; this is Part 1 we\u2019re on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3b8ad398f164e65a2d5bddb4c2d4c19\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I thought this was Part 2. So I think I will sit down and reserve my comments for Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7a48277f24a45c98106f60a28634d78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7a48277f24a45c98106f60a28634d78\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you have been put wrong by Mr Twyford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022 data-id=\u002263e6a6fff4a24a82a69a70d200bca5bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263e6a6fff4a24a82a69a70d200bca5bd\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. Thank you very much for the opportunity to contribute to the Committee stage debate on the Land Transfer Bill. It is quite timely for me, because I am going to pick up on where my colleague Meka Whaitiri left off. In doing so I would just firstly like to acknowledge the Law Commission\u2019s 2010 report A New Land Transfer Act, which is 342 pages long. It completed this review of the Land Transfer Act 1952 and the two subsequent amendment Acts, the Land Transfer Amendment Act 1963 and the Land Transfer (Computer Registers and Electronic Lodgement) Amendment Act 2002. Contained within that particular Law Commission report was recommendation 21, which, in fact, was that there should be an in-depth review into the registration of M\u0101ori land. So what my colleague Meka Whaitiri has brought up is actually germane and pertinent to Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI am very interested in the comment by the Minister in the chair, Chris Finlayson, about a document that I have just got. It is Land Information New Zealand\u2019s addendum to its main departmental report on the Land Transfer Bill. Actually, the Government did respond to the Law Commission recommendation, and, in fact, it asked for Te P\u016Bni K\u014Dkiri, Land Information New Zealand, and the Ministry of Justice to investigate the issues and report back to Ministers on what, if any, aspects of M\u0101ori land registration should be subject to the review. The recommendation of that process, however, was that a review of the relationship between the two Acts was not deemed to be needed or appropriate. So I am really interested to know whether the Minister agrees with that or how they came to that conclusion, because I think it is important that we address such issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI have been trying to find an alternative to the Torrens system, actually, because it seems we have got one type of registration process. In fact, it was created in 1858 by Sir Robert Richard Torrens, who was the third Premier of South Australia. The reason the system was created in South Australia was that in the context of the early 1800s, that state was a booming land speculation environment, and so at that time it granted lands. Apparently, there were 40,000 lands that were granted, and, over a period of time, 75 percent of those lands were lost, so no one actually knew who owned them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003ESo I can understand why this system was created, but it seems it has not evolved, and there do not seem to be any alternatives. I have googled, and Strata seems to be a system that is used, but that is about multiple ownership of single dwellings. But I just wonder whether there is anywhere else in the world\u2014or whether the Minister in the chair knows of any other systems\u2014because the whole intention of this legislation, as was highlighted in the Law Commission\u2019s report, is that we want the legislation to be clear, effective, and fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI just want to commend the Law Commission for its work, because I think creating a bill like this, which seems to have general support of the House\u2014it is an incredibly technical bill, which is what we have been briefed on in making contributions to the debate in the Committee tonight. But just from my perspective, I am really interested to know whether there are any other registration systems, because, basically, the purpose of this bill is to simplify land transactions and to certify the ownership of an absolute title to property. That is all that this bill is wanting to do, but just from my curious perspective, I am wondering whether there are other systems that are used in other jurisdictions. But I am also very, very interested in the Minister\u2019s agreement, or otherwise, about the relationship between Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Act and the registration of M\u0101ori land and this Land Transfer Bill, as my colleague Meka Whaitiri has highlighted. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d00370f528c448108685df24b3d5b796\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d00370f528c448108685df24b3d5b796\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I am interested in the points that Mr Huo made, but I think I should deal with those when we look at Part 2, because we are dealing with this part by part. I think the honourable member is referring to clauses 54 and 55, so I will deal with them then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn answer to the questions that have been raised about clause 4(d), that simply deals with the interrelationship between the two pieces of legislation, and maybe we will get on to that Homeric epic, Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Bill, later in the evening. Clause 4(d) simply deals with that class of land that is \u201Cvested in a person for a freehold estate under any other Act,\u201D which will include Te Ture Whenua. There may or may not be many in that class, but the purpose of clause 4 is to set out in some detail those categories of land in our country that will be subject to the Act. As I say, paragraph (d) deals with that class of freehold estate, which is defined in clause 5, relating to M\u0101ori land. I do not think it is any more important or less important than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5bc2472799a42e2b107e0855306bbf1\u0022\u003EPart 2  Land title and registration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u00222a0cf024e0ba4d46b326ebc9e0c31560\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a0cf024e0ba4d46b326ebc9e0c31560\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This is the second time, but I will start again. I was saying that it is a very good bill, and I too want to commend the Law Commission for producing it. New Zealand First will vote in favour, but we do want to make some constructive suggestions for improvement. Irrespective of whether they pass or not, we will be supporting the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe first is Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 325, which would insert new clause 9A, for a requirement for the registrar to maintain a register of foreign land ownership. The reason for that is that it is a very important issue for us. It is very important for New Zealand First to understand foreign land ownership in New Zealand and, in particular, how much land is owned by foreigners and who they are. We think that is a matter that the public should be able to discover easily, and that will never happen unless there is a register of foreign land ownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThere is, actually, currently no easy or accurate way to measure the amount of land under the control of foreign nationals, and that is the point. Unlike other jurisdictions, there is no official database of foreign land in New Zealand. As I understand it, the estimates that some have made about foreign ownership vary from 1 percent to over 3 percent, but even if it is 1 percent, that is still quite a lot of land. There are many people in the community who would have an interest in knowing and understanding that\u2014not just political parties; many others as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe Overseas Investment Office, as you know, collects data and it decides on foreign ownership, but its data is not broad enough, not accurate enough, and not complete enough to provide the information that people need. So this SOP would ensure that a comprehensive register of foreign-owned land in New Zealand is available for anyone who needs that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe proposed register would record names and nationalities, the amount and value of land involved, and the regions in which the land is situated. Purchasers would actually be obligated, under this provision, upon registering land dealings, to provide information for the register. It would apply to all dealings in land, as that term is defined in section 2 of the Land Transfer Act 1952, including: \u201Cmessages, tenements, hereditaments, corporeal and incorporeal, of every kind and description,\u201D. There is a substantial penalty also provided for in the bill for deliberate non-compliance, being a fine of up to 25 percent of the value of the land concerned. So there would be quite a heavy penalty, and therefore we think that that would ensure that compliance is achieved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe register is intended to be a resource for policy makers as well as the general public, who would be able to accurately assess foreign land holdings across New Zealand as well as within particular areas of the country. The register would provide transparency for concerned New Zealanders. Although it would not cover existing foreign land holdings, it would, over time, provide a valuable resource of information without actually incurring any significant costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI want to move on now to my second SOP, which is No. 313, and that would delete clause 57(3). When you look at clause 57, 57(1) provides for the cancellation of a registration where it would be manifestly unjust to maintain it, and that, along with clause 57(2) are, we think, good provisions. \u201CManifestly unjust\u201D is an appropriately high bar, and we approve of that. But clause 57(3), we believe, is wrong and should be deleted. It prevents an order for cancellation unless the court finds in the negative\u2014that compensation could not properly address the injustice. If the high standard of the term \u201Cmanifest injustice\u201D in clause 57(1) is met, then the applicant should be able to get cancellation, in our view, unless the court finds that it would be unjust to do so for some very good reason that it would judge to be the case. That would mean that a defendant would have the burden of proof to show that resort to cancellation would be unjust, and that is the way it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EIt should not be necessary for an applicant for such an order to show that compensation would not properly address the injustice. After all, there is another clause, clause 59, that already exists to provide for compensation where that is applied for. It is pretty obvious that if a person is applying on just grounds and meets that high bar for cancellation, then they should be able to get that unless a defendant can prove that they should not. I think that is the fair and proper way that it should be, and that is why we in New Zealand First believe that clause 57(3) needs to be deleted\u2014because it actually works against the whole intent of the clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI want to move on now, finally, to my third SOP, which is No. 314. That would reinsert clause 54. It is not a hugely important matter in the great scheme of things, but it is important enough in its own right. What clause 54 provided for, and should still provide for, is imposing new requirements on mortgagees to take reasonable steps\u2014and I want to emphasise the term \u201Creasonable\u201D\u2014to verify the identity of the mortgagor and the authority of the person executing on behalf of the mortgagor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThat is a very sensible and basic requirement that would assist in avoiding both fraud and mistake, and particularly mistake, I believe. That can occur in situations, for example, where a trustee or an agent acts without authority, or when one or more than one interested proprietors purport to sign on behalf of all. In my experience, those are the kinds of situations where this would apply. It is not necessarily deliberate cases of fraud, because they are few and far between, but there are many other cases that this SOP and this clause would cover. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe best time to avoid those improprieties or mistakes is at the time the mortgage is signed\u2014right at the coalface, in other words. Clause 54(1) would require only an ordinary best practice procedure by requiring verification of a mortgagor\u2019s identity and their authority to sign. It is not expensive. It is not difficult to do. It is something you would expect banks, for example, to do anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe reasons given for deletion, in my view, are inadequate and unconvincing. They were, firstly, that sufficient protections already exist\u2014well, where and how; I do not believe they do\u2014and, secondly, that mortgage fraud is unlikely given the Landonline system now used. Well, maybe that is the case, but that does not mean there will never be a fraud, and it certainly does not mean that there will not be any mistakes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe third reason is that the cost of compliance is too high and disproportionate. I take that with a huge grain of salt. I do not believe for a moment that the cost of compliance of this would be high or disproportionate. So for those reasons I think that it would be best, on the balance of all those considerations, for clause 54 to be reinstated. It is not a big deal, but it is actually just good common-sense stuff. It does not impose huge or expensive or difficult obligations on people dealing with mortgages. It is the sort of stuff, as I said, that is just best practice, and they should be doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI commend all three SOPs to the Committee, for the reasons I have given, and I hope all parties will sincerely consider them and help us to make it a better bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5466e504def4471b9a1bd3dd3c5843c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5466e504def4471b9a1bd3dd3c5843c\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Mr O\u2019Rourke for those very helpful comments and would respond to his first Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 325 by saying I think it is probably outside the scope of the bill. This legislation is very technical legislation on the hows and whys and the means by which one registers an interest in land, and so on. It states the fundamental principles about indefeasibility of title. A register of foreign landowners addresses a slightly different point. I hear what the member is saying. Maybe there should be some sui generis legislation, but that can be the subject of a separate debate. It is my belief that what the member is proposing in that SOP is outside the scope of the bill. I just need to give a bit more thought to the second of his SOPs, SOP 313, so that I can give him a reasonably coherent answer, rather than waffle, so I will come back to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIf I can talk to his third SOP, SOP 314, about whether those clauses 54 and 55 should be reinstated, I think he very accurately summarised the reasons that were advanced as to why the clauses were deleted. First, he talked about the issue of costs, and he said that he did not think that the costs would be insurmountable. He may well be right, but the fact of the matter is that those costs of compliance would, as sure as anything, be passed on to the consumer, because I would not think that the banking institutions would carry them themselves. Then the issue arises about whether that expense is justifiable, given the low level of mortgage fraud in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second point I would raise, and I think this is a more powerful point, is that existing identity verification requirements appear to be robust. The legislation currently requires both lawyers and conveyancers, all 30 of them, to take reasonable steps to confirm the identity of a person who has given them authority to lodge a transfer instrument on their behalf. The requirement to verify identity for a transaction relating to land also arises in other circumstances. One that I am very familiar with is the protection provided for in the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act 2009, which places an obligation on entities to verify a person\u2019s identity. I also refer Mr O\u2019Rourke to Part 2 of the Financial Transactions Reporting Act 1996.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c12d75b498f4ecabcf0fef97fc6b980\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: So it won\u2019t increase costs, then, because they have to do it anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239a029c6ced04230b2cc0fe4919f210b\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I hear what the member is saying, and we obviously would not want to have a contentious debate on clauses 54 and 55. The view of the department and the Minister for Land Information is that although the risk appears to be currently low, there will be monitoring to ensure that should the situation change, it can be addressed speedily, allowing the clauses to be reinstated should they need to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022990a4bbf9bb34540a91c97281e04d7e5\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Do it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1a2d2b5919b45f6a7ba7884a01c7936\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: It may not satisfy the honourable member, but I hope that that answers the position of the Government in relation to the first and third of his SOPs. I think it has picked up the point raised by Mr Huo, who will correct me if I am wrong, and then I will come back to Mr O\u2019Rourke\u2019s second point when I figure out what to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00227d982d2b63b34cd0a839e5e6eba4c970\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d982d2b63b34cd0a839e5e6eba4c970\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the comments from the Minister in the chair, Christopher Finlayson, but notwithstanding his opinion about the Supplementary Order Paper of Denis O\u2019Rourke, Supplementary Order Paper 325, which would insert a new clause 9A\u2014notwithstanding the Minister\u2019s view that that is out of scope of this bill, I want to express Labour\u2019s support for this amendment. It deals with a problem that has been the subject of much contentious debate in this Parliament and out in the public sphere over the last few years, as the housing crisis has got worse and worse. It is our view on this side of the Chamber that unchecked demand pressures are causing real problems in the housing market. By no means the biggest pressure, but still a significant one, is the lack of regulation or lack of limits around foreign investment in the residential real estate market. Denis O\u2019Rourke\u2019s amendment seeks to fix one aspect of this problem by inserting in Part 2, in new clause 9A, the requirement for the registrar to keep a foreign ownership of land register. This is, basically, the policy in Australia and in the UK, so it is a very sensible, mainstream proposal. What it would do is establish a transparent register of foreign ownership that would include the person\u2019s name and nationality, the amount and value of the land involved, and the districts in which the land is situated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWhat is the problem it is trying to solve? The problem has been a terrible dearth of reliable information about foreign ownership of land. In the case of residential land, the Government has stepped into the vacuum over the last year or two by having Land Information New Zealand (LINZ) run a survey of people buying residential property. It has only recently released the sixth quarterly report of that Land Information New Zealand data. It purports to provide summary information about the extent of foreign buying in the residential real estate market, but on the sixth go, it is still having real problems generating any kind of data that sheds useful light on this issue. In the most recent one it tidied up one of the longstanding problems with the data, and that is that it was treating people who are in New Zealand and buying homes while on either a temporary student visa or a temporary work visa as New Zealanders, which obviously made kind of a mockery of the numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBut in the most recent instalment of LINZ data it still included trusts and companies\u2014automatically treating them all as if they were New Zealand residents buying residential property. So you could only conclude from the most recent batch of data that was released that foreign buyers in the residential real estate market were somewhere between 4 percent, which was the absolute number that the data could confirm, and 22 percent, given that a large number of the non-resident foreign buyers buying homes in New Zealand are using trusts and company structures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESo I say all that by way of just saying that this is the problem. It is a real problem\u2014the lack of data. It is a matter of huge public interest. There is very, very strong public support for the idea of putting limits and controls around foreign investment in real estate as they do in Australia, Hong Kong, Singapore, and British Colombia in Canada, most recently. What this would do is provide a source of really good, reliable information in real time about the presence of foreign ownership\u2014in fact, not only in terms of residential property but property more generally. This would be overwhelmingly popular with New Zealanders, this initiative. It is sensible, it would provide good data to support public policy, and Labour will support Denis O\u2019Rourke\u2019s amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002296f0aa9200a3481a90136642f3383442\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296f0aa9200a3481a90136642f3383442\u0022\u003EPEENI HENARE (Labour\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. Thank you very much for this opportunity. I think it is good timing, with the Minister the Hon Christopher Finlayson in the chair as I read through this particular bill, and, in particular, clause 57, \u201CCourt may make order only in cases of manifest injustice\u201D, and, given the Minister in the chair\u2019s role and responsibilities in the House, one particular provision under clause 57(4): \u201CIn determining whether to make an order, the court may take into account\u2014 \u2026 (c) if the estate or interest is in M\u0101ori freehold land, failure by a person to comply with Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EGiven that Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Bill is to go through its progression through this House, I wonder whether\u2014and it is good timing that it is Mr Finlayson in the chair\u2014he can provide some sort of commentary, just on that part in particular, with regard to the proposed changes under Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Bill. Also, in his role as the Treaty Minister, the clause\u2014I was staring at it earlier; it will come to me\u2014I am referring to is around the value of land and the compensation aspects of this particular bill around the value of the land, and what impact this might have on proposed Treaty settlements moving forward. So I guess it is not necessarily a question, but certainly a request as to whether the Minister in the chair would not mind providing some commentary for his thoughts, in particular around that particular clause I raised\u2014clause 57(4)\u2014where it says there: \u201CIn determining whether to make an order, the court may take into account\u2014 \u2026 (c) if the estate or interest is in M\u0101ori freehold land, failure by a person to comply with Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993;\u201D. Some commentary on that would be much appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b513293f92034c579248e9be839954ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b513293f92034c579248e9be839954ad\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I have just had a text from Mr Williamson, who calls me a very sad puppy for being interested in this stuff. But it is very interesting, and I say to Mr Williamson that he should be ashamed of himself for making such an allegation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBut let me address immediately the very good point made by Mr Henare about clause 57(4)(c), which talks about where manifest injustice may apply in relation to land that comes under Te Ture Whenua Maori Act. The issue he raises is: how does that provision affect M\u0101ori land, and does it, in fact, introduce a different standard in respect of land under that Act, compared with other land? The point I would want to make about that is that the manifest injustice provision does not introduce a different standard of conduct in respect of M\u0101ori land compared with other land. M\u0101ori freehold land will continue to have the same indefeasible protections as for other land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe point here that needs to be emphasised, though, is that when considering whether to make an order cancelling the registration of land or of an interest in land because the applicant alleges allowing the registration would constitute a case of manifest injustice, clause 57 sets out various factors that the court takes into account. One of those factors where the estate or interest is in M\u0101ori freehold land is whether there was a failure by a person to comply with Te Ture Whenua Maori Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn other words, in instances where due process was not followed under that Act, resulting in an incorrectly registered title, the manifest injustice provision would allow the court to consider\u2014at least consider\u2014the overturning of the registration to avoid an unfair outcome. So I say to Mr Henare that, if anything, the provision reinforces current protections under the 1993 Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00228606bb6306ca4c93b789d235c2366d34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228606bb6306ca4c93b789d235c2366d34\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. Thank you, and I thank the Minister in the chair, Christopher Finlayson, for his active involvement in this debate. It was interesting today\u2014with the good offices of Phil Twyford there was a group of youth leaders from Myanmar who were following MPs for the day. The discussion with Myo Thu, who was working with my office, was very much that in Myanmar there is no Torrens system, so there are great difficulties in terms of customary ownership of land and working out who owns land and therefore how any property taxes should be levied, and the benefits we have in New Zealand from having our Torrens system, the fact that it has been put online, and the fact that it does then provide, as Michael Wood noted, indefeasibility of title and a security when people are engaging in property transactions, which we are very fortunate to have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI would just like to comment in terms of Mr O\u2019Rourke\u2019s Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs), particularly the one that seeks to reinsert clause 54, SOP 314. Certainly, in the Green Party we are supporting the bill, but we will be voting against this SOP because, with other members of the Government Administration Committee, we were convinced by the evidence that the Law Society and the banks provided that it was going to make the whole system too cumbersome if there was a requirement in the bill, as it was originally introduced, that the mortgagee would have to verify the identity of the mortgagor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI note in the submissions of the Law Society that it made the point that it thought that this provision, clause 54, had ended up in the bill because of the concern that New Zealand would follow Australia in terms of the increase in incidence of identity and mortgage fraud. But while Australia, as the Minister has noted, was the birthplace of the Torrens system\u2014in South Australia\u2014it seems that New Zealand has subsequently overtaken it and that our electronic Landonline system is now much more robust than the largely papers-based system that operates in many states in Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe point that both the Law Society and the banks made was that Land Information New Zealand already has quite detailed standards, which require evidence about contact details for the physical address of the property and the landowner concerned, and quite a high level of information that is already provided. The other point that was made was that there has been only one known case of identity fraud in New Zealand since Landonline was introduced. So it certainly was not the problem that it was in Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo we will not be supporting that SOP, but we certainly will be supporting Mr O\u2019Rourke\u2019s other SOP, SOP 325, to insert new clause 9A, \u201CRegistrar to keep foreign ownership of land register\u201D. The Minister thinks this may be beyond the scope of the bill, but I would encourage him to go to clause 10 of the bill, because that does talk about the purpose of the register: \u201C(a) provide a public record of land that is subject to this Act, including a record of\u2014(i) title to estates and interests in land \u2026 and (ii) other information \u2026\u201D. Looking at the contents of the register, we think that Mr O\u2019Rourke\u2019s SOP is perfectly in line with what the register should have in it, as set out in clauses 10 and 11. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere is increasing concern about the extent of foreign overseas ownership of land in New Zealand, and it is very difficult to get accurate information on that. I think the Campaign Against Foreign Control of Aotearoa (CAFCA)\u2014it has fallen on it as a non-governmental organisation, with the limited resources it has, to be the best source of accurate information on the extent of land that has gone into overseas ownership. In 2016, I think, CAFCA calculated that there were at least 362,000 hectares of freehold farm and forestry land and 103,000 hectares of leasehold land. If Mr O\u2019Rourke\u2019s SOP became law, we would have much more accurate information on the extent of land that was in foreign ownership. It is the Green Party\u2019s longstanding view that our laws around overseas ownership in New Zealand are far too lax and that we should actually change the law to put significant restrictions on landownership by non-citizens and non-residents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI think we have seen that recently with a Landcorp farm, Jericho station, in Southland: there is a significant degree of public concern about this 1,400-hectare property going into overseas ownership. A local New Zealand Southland farmer put in a bid of $8.5 million, but an overseas owner can offer more than that. If we have title laws on foreign ownership\u2014and Mr O\u2019Rourke\u2019s SOP is a step towards actually just providing more accurate information\u2014we can help ensure that the basis of the primary production sector of the economy is maintained in New Zealand ownership. Alienating that alienates the basis of creating wealth in our primary production sector. This is only a very small measure, but I do encourage the Government to consider the purpose of the register, the contents of the register, and the fact that this SOP belongs with this bill and would actually add to the value of the register in providing accurate information to New Zealanders about overseas ownership. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c04fe144e8e24bcfb4a52eba7d8b54da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c04fe144e8e24bcfb4a52eba7d8b54da\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister in the chair, Chris Finlayson, for his earlier comments. Basically, the Minister\u2019s view is that any measures that lead up to the registration of foreign ownership of our residential properties are outside of the scope of the bill. Specifically, the New Zealand First member Denis O\u2019Rourke\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 325, according to the Minister, is outside of the scope of the bill. With due respect, it is the Chair, advised by the Clerk, who decides whether\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e121a8d598964230aa0e5a198c615d27\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows)\u003C/span\u003E: That is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022486a025c657744ff97a66e9a74e40619\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014amendments are in scope, not the Minister in the chair. So could I ask the Chair whether SOP 325 has been ruled in or out of the scope of the bill? The Chair can answer my question either now or after my contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d8121f188b44b289392d90991e6e6f9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022645c82e3919f4dc89676a95d1ae019bf\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: That is your call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266118d5b5a0d4f91a7acec0eadf0b959\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows)\u003C/span\u003E: Good! I will get around to it\u2014it is a valid SOP at the moment and it has not been ruled out, so go for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e6bb74cff66442ea9a7915605c5b002\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr Chair. At the moment we do not have any legitimate and reasonably reliable data about the number of foreign purchasers of New Zealand residential properties. Figures released by Land Information New Zealand showed that only 3 percent, for instance, of Chinese non-residents, were responsible for purchasing New Zealand residential properties, but the houses purchased by people with Chinese names were more than four times the level of ethnic Chinese in Auckland\u2019s population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ESo here we are\u2014we are talking about the \u201CChinese names\u201D. One colleague, shortly after I returned to this House, did make a joke that we now have not one but two \u201CChinese names\u201D in this House. In talking about my Chinese name\u2014you may forget about my first name, because it can be painful even trying to get it pronounced correctly\u2014my last name, spelt H-u-o, is pronounced similar to the word h-a-l-l, with a soft \u201Cl\u201D: Huo. Still, people get confused. Some call me Mr Hugh, and some of them call me Mr Hwah, or Mr Who. French people will certainly call me Mr \u2019uo, because the \u201Ch\u201D is silent. If my last name does get pronounced \u201Cwho\u201D, that can well be my campaign slogan: \u201CWho cares!\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a68d47909f0425c9986aac21c8c4489\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239f40cd44bea4e4d82161d29462219bb\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: And, being light-hearted, we do care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ENow, back to Part 2. Part 2 deals with \u201CLand title and registration\u201D, and clause 9 is \u201CRegistrar to keep register\u201D and clause 10 is \u201CPurpose of register\u201D, so that brings us back to SOP 325. We do not have any legitimate and reliable data about the number of foreign purchasers of New Zealand residential properties. What I just outlined just shows that the discrepancy is enormous. On the one hand, we have a housing crisis; on the other, nobody knows about the size and scope of foreign ownership of New Zealand residential properties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274b01afe567a4c939e4e06e2f9d22e51\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019ll know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212b6069859024814b394d2e46b643e5a\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: Well, those National MPs may have a good laugh, but National does operate in such a manner. It is flying a big jumbo jet, but without a working navigation system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d769a2455ef34760a25f2da14851b5d8\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221be4055597947828d42a14fccb4c4d8\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: Now, back to this bill again. We have three problems with the Land Information New Zealand data. Even the Minister at that time admitted that the data was inconclusive and should not be viewed as a foreign buyers register\u2014here we are; we are back to the SOP again. Those figures were based on the low side of the market. They were collected after the introduction of the new IRD disclosure rule in October 2015, and the data did not and will not include trusts and business purchases. This means that the scale of influence by foreign purchasers in the domestic residential market, at the height of their activity prior to October 2015, will remain unknown for ever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EAbout US$1 trillion of capital flowed out of China in 2015, and it is reasonable to assume that that movement of money will have had some impact on the New Zealand housing market. As my colleague Phil Twyford said in his contribution earlier, Auckland is not alone with housing problems, despite having the fourth least affordable houses in the world. Hong Kong, Beijing, Vancouver, and other major cities have similar problems too. The Hong Kong Government has widened its property curves by imposing stamp duty, double stamp duty, and buyer\u2019s stamp duty. Now, in Beijing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242413d082be7489bbb49d381ef61c653\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: 15 percent market value.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd2b7c9d7cfd4e21ad67b05e5bd05878\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: 15 percent\u2014yes, damn right. In Beijing, local authorities applied harsher rules that do not allow non-residents, even Chinese nationals, to buy their residential properties unless they become tax residents for a number of years. Interestingly, the same issue has attracted all sorts of debate there, but race is not part of the argument. The matter is treated as a simple matter of supply and demand, and not race.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EFunnily enough, it appears that no one so far has questioned this National Government as to why it has refused to collect any reasonably reliable data to help gauge the size and scope of the problem. At best, it has been in the slow lane; at worst, it has been in denial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EA Kiwi-Chinese investor can buy a property anywhere in New Zealand. But should his family members, such as brothers or sisters living in Beijing, Hong Kong, or Singapore, enjoy the same right? National says yes; Labour says no. Labour\u2019s policy puts the best interests of Kiwis, including Kiwi-Chinese, ahead of foreign buyers, including Chinese nationals. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220865aadc0f9e46bea29509b906078d0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220865aadc0f9e46bea29509b906078d0a\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00226bdca3320dda4a028eecbf076521ac0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bdca3320dda4a028eecbf076521ac0e\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E That was me\u2014I was the last to my feet, Mr Chair, so I am very flattered and somewhat surprised, but delighted, to take the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ce2cd263a154468a99474d391f14574\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister\u2019s pet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3b0c45a55324bd58aa7a6948108fe33\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! That is a disturbing comment, Mr Chair, but I will take it in good heart. Ha, ha! I am very happy to rise, and there are a couple of particular clauses I am keen to speak to in this part of the debate. Those are clauses 54 and 57, and I want to talk about some of the alterations made at the Government Administration Committee to these clauses, but also a couple of the Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs) that have been put forward by Denis O\u2019Rourke. Really, Part 1 was a scintillating debate, but it was a mere entr\u00E9e, and we really are getting to the meat of the matter here, because we are getting into those serious issues about what a manifest injustice is and what the changes are that we are actually looking at making to the Torrens system here. These things potentially do have a significant impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI want to come back to that discussion about the importance of indefeasibility, which this whole system rests upon. It rests upon the certainty that we want to have about the identity of the owner of land, and, sitting underneath that, we need to have certainty about the identity of sellers and buyers of land. That comes to the heart of clause 54, which I would like to speak about a little bit here now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe select committee has struck out clause 54, and when we go through the submissions there are a small number of submissions that encourage this step to be taken. It is probably no surprise that the chief submission that does that comes from the New Zealand Bankers\u2019 Association. I will make sure I retain parliamentary language and am kind, but let me just say that bankers can be bankers, and, in this respect, the New Zealand Bankers\u2019 Association has advanced an understandable argument from its point of view. No industry or sector ever welcomes an additional level of legislative scrutiny or regulation over its activities, but I have to say that I think the select committee may have over overheard the concerns that have been raised by that organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWhat I can say is that, yes, possibly there are some small compliance costs that would come about as a result of clause 54\u2014and let us just be clear about what clause 54, as it was when it came to the select committee, does: it simply asks that those parties who are lending in a mortgage situation\u2014chiefly but not exclusively the banks\u2014take steps to absolutely ensure that they verify \u201Cthe identity of the mortgagor or the identity and authority of a person who executes a mortgage\u201D, and I am reading from the struck-out clause 54(2) here. Of course, there will be compliance costs associated with undertaking those steps. When we put protections into our system, there usually are compliance costs. So the question is not whether there are compliance costs, and if the answer is yes we strike it out; the question should be that if there are compliance costs, then, taking into account what we achieve by some public-good regulation, are those compliance costs reasonable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWhat I have not come across in either the submission of the New Zealand Bankers\u2019 Association or in the select committee commentary is actually any real quantification or argument that those compliance costs really are excessive or burdensome, given the importance of getting this stuff right, and bearing in mind how bad it is and how many people are potentially very badly damaged, and the processes that we then have to go through to fix it up, if we do not verify correctly the identity of mortgagors. So I am not at all convinced by the arguments around the compliance costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThere was also an argument put forward, I think, by the Auckland District Law Society, which, of course, has produced many fine contributors to our society\u2014a few National Government Cabinet Ministers, as well. It has got a very, very good submission that it has put forward here. It sort of makes a convenience argument about this as well, and it says, effectively: \u201CThis will mean that parties who are providing mortgages will need to attend the legal offices of solicitors to sign the documents.\u201D Certainly, I can see that that is a small inconvenience, but I think that in the greater scheme of things it is not a burdensome one, particularly when we know that when you are buying a house, it is not something you do every week. It is a major transaction; there are going to these things associated with it. So I think taking\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebf9528d3ff54cbe955035e9e1a8c0f8\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: There is in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291cefc3a685e442aa9d543beece3f587\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: In Auckland, that is right. Well, there are some people who are trading them every week, but not most ordinary people. So I do not think that those arguments that have been put up in favour of striking down clause 54 really do stand, and for that reason I certainly stand in support of Denis O\u2019Rourke\u2019s\u2014[Bell rung]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f79cfd13cbe64c63bf88c9d6c4c6b219\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows)\u003C/span\u003E: I will just\u2014[Interruption] Order! I will allow a second call, but I should inform the House that it gives me no small amount of pleasure to overrule my former lecturer from Victoria University\u2014a fine school. However, the Supplementary Order Paper in respect of a register for foreign owners is in scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aaa2ec4f71748c78fc83fb56d6f8e35\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, this evening just gets better and better. There has been action all over the place\u2014unprecedented things happening in the House this evening, and I hope to improve on it with some comments shortly about clause 57, which I know people have been waiting for all night. So, as I say, I just want to reaffirm that support for Denis O\u2019Rourke\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 314, for the reasons that I have outlined, which would effectively reinstate clause 54, which was struck out at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would just note on that is that I have done a number of years working in close association with the banking sector as a union representative of the good folks who actually produce the documentation and sign off on mortgages, and what I do know is that most of the banks do have pretty robust internal procedures, for very obvious reasons\u2014to protect themselves in this area. So I think the argument is somewhat specious that having a legislative confirmation that that is important provides any additional great burden on those very large and very profitable organisations. It simply does not stack up with the experience that I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIf we move on to clause 57, I just want to talk particularly about clause 57(3). This is another clause where we have a Supplementary Order Paper from Denis O\u2019Rourke, who has been very prolific in this debate, as he is in some others. What Mr O\u2019Rourke suggests is that we strike out clause 57(3). This is actually really important: this relates to what the courts might do when we do find that there is the case of manifest injustice. So, going back to the earlier commentary, manifest injustice is that very high threshold that we have set that means that we have got a narrow way through the Torrens system in terms of the utter integrity and indefeasibility of the land register. Clause 57(3), as it is written, sort of puts an extra test in there, because\u2014I will just read it out so we have got clarity on this: \u201CAn order under this section may be made only if the court is satisfied that in the circumstances the injustice could not properly be addressed by compensation or damages\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThat, really, is the point of the SOP from Denis O\u2019Rourke, SOP 313. Effectively, what he is saying is that if there is a manifest injustice\u2014if we have got this wrong, if we have already cleared the hurdle, cleared that very high legal bar that there is a manifest injustice\u2014why would we not just put it right and correct the register? Why would there have to be this additional judicial test to be looked at about whether it is appropriate to first consider compensation or damages. It almost seems to be an additional complication in the system. If we have got it wrong, if there is a manifest injustice, let us simply fix that up in the first place. I think that is what Mr O\u2019Rourke is trying to achieve through his SOP to remove clause 57(3). The Labour Party sees the merit in that and does support that SOP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI just want to refer to a couple of other submissions that came in in respect of this, and, actually, just to pay some tribute to a very good submission that came through from the Wellington Community Justice Project. I have seen submissions from this group on a number of other bills before; a wide range of bills. The group is, as I understand it, of Wellington law students and recent graduates who submit and engage in the legislative process to make sure that we have good and socially just law. It makes the point\u2014and I am reading from section 9 of its submission here\u2014that \u201CThe words \u2018manifestly unjust\u2019 indicate an extremely high threshold that naturally promotes caution.\u201D So again, they are sort of reaffirming the point, in respect of this issue with clause 57(3), that it is a very high threshold\u2014a very high threshold\u2014and I think that within the legal system it is going to take a pretty strong case to clear it. If we get there, why are we complicating the matter further by bringing in questions of compensation or damages as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWhile we are on the question of \u201Cmanifestly unjust\u201D, I do just want to comment on a slight divergence of view that came through between different submissions. The Wellington Community Justice Project addressed the question of whether we should have a definition, in clause 57, of the term \u201Cmanifest injustice\u2014or, more appropriately, in the interpretation clause. They came down on the side of saying no. There are possibly some reasons of certainty, but actually it is probably better to leave that to the courts. I would note that the Auckland District Law Society came to the opposite view, and actually did call for there to be greater clarity by way of definition in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party thinks that the select committee got this one right, on balance\u2014that it is a complex area, and it is better to let the courts build up a body of jurisprudence around this, through their own interpretation. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcaa6195441748e89406230884c7e793\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcaa6195441748e89406230884c7e793\u0022\u003EMEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. I do want to make a short contribution on Part 2, \u201CLand title and registration\u201D. In my earlier contribution I talked about examining this bill through the lens of M\u0101ori land owners. As the proud member for Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti, 30 percent of this country\u2019s M\u0101ori freehold title land sits in my electorate. Part 2, where we talk about land title and registration\u2014I completely understand that we are modernising the land transfer system in this country, through electronic registration, which, clearly, Part 2 outlines and which we have been doing for some time now. My two questions in relation to Part 2\u2014obviously we are talking about the land registration, the purpose of the registration, and the content of the registration. The Minister in the chair, Chris Finlayson, will also be well aware that we are currently reviewing Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993. One of the cornerstones of that piece of legislation is the establishment of a M\u0101ori Land Service. Some of the powers in the M\u0101ori Land Court will be taken into this yet-to-be-determined service, including registrations. We do not have any detail on that. In fact, last week even Treasury gave that piece of work a red alert in terms of meeting the Government\u2019s own requirements for major works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EComing back to the bill, Part 2, \u201CLand title and registration\u201D\u2014I want the Minister, if he could, to give assurances, as we debate Part 2, as to whether there is an expectation that M\u0101ori land owners\u2019 registration is going to be delivered through Land Information New Zealand. Or perhaps he can give some assurances that the M\u0101ori Land Service is still being developed, because I think it is an important point to stand and ask that, on behalf of the constituents within Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti. There is huge confusion around the so-called M\u0101ori Land Service. So that is one question that I would be interested in the Minister\u2019s view around: what are we debating in Part 2 of this bill, in terms of the registration, its purpose, what it will do, how it will go about it, how it is going to be available, and whether M\u0101ori land owners are going to be steered by this part of this legislation that we are debating in the Committee this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Minister for explaining to my colleague Peeni Henare around clause 57\u2014I want to thank the Minister\u2014around the role of the court in terms of clause 57(4)(c), which states: \u201Cif the estate or interest is in M\u0101ori freehold land, failure by a person to comply with Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993;\u201D. Obviously, if we pass Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Bill that will have to be amended. But a supplementary question in response to the Minister\u2019s explanation is which court we are talking about. Which court, Minister, are we talking about? Are we talking about the M\u0101ori Land Court, in relation to clause 57, in so far as M\u0101ori land owners are concerned, or are we talking about the High Court? I ask that only because if that is the case, then I want it on the record, because the point that was made in the submissions on Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Bill was the financial barrier of filing in the High Court for M\u0101ori land owners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo I have two simple questions: are we talking about the M\u0101ori Land Service, through Land Information New Zealand, and are we talking about the High Court, in relation to clause 57(4)(c)? Those are two simple questions that, hopefully, the Minister can shed some light on. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225d36b16faf1c49d7b8e0368742210f88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d36b16faf1c49d7b8e0368742210f88\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f77100985a6a4edf897019aeb6856600\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f77100985a6a4edf897019aeb6856600\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d46d1e728b3408cbf89a247a99b2b83\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: There cannot possibly be a point of order. What possible point of order is there now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022854d0d6c1a034e398b6b06eae13879a8\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE\u003C/span\u003E: The person who just moved the closure motion has already, previously, moved a closure motion. I understand you cannot do that twice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00221ac606c1f80e41bd9aec248f40cec4cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ac606c1f80e41bd9aec248f40cec4cf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s understanding is incorrect. [Interruption] I am sorry; I am considering the calls. We have had quite a few. Mr O\u2019Rourke, do you still want a call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281836b67b97c4d92bc7f75968d8a106a\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e87da3c9a84148dcb7b3f1440926ca11\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: I will give it to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022914f232a545a41dfbeac466ad9cd6fde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022914f232a545a41dfbeac466ad9cd6fde\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chairman; a very good choice. I just wanted to respond to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297df7f3fc9ec4a8682ddb95668ad0996\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s just rewarding the behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d301ad037e2546c0967cabff88ebfbba\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Sorry, the member should know better. I am not going to say that I am going to punish people for disagreeing with me, because that is not fashionable these days, but the member should take some care when he criticises the Chair\u2019s rulings. Denis O\u2019Rourke, starting again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224847febf81be48da9479d84a7a3e68b6\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I just wanted to comment on some of the comments made by others concerning the three Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs) that I have proposed. The first one I will not need to take much time on, because it has already been found by the Chairperson that SOP 325 concerning a foreign land-ownership register is within scope. I just wanted to say this: that, really, all it does is ask for some very basic information about nationality, name and address, and so on. That does not seem to me to require a huge effort on behalf of either a purchaser or the land registrar. It is quite simple to do, relatively straightforward, and inexpensive, but the benefits in relation to that small effort, that small cost, would be huge. I do not need to say anything more about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI did want to make some brief comments also on SOP 314. I would like to make just two points on that, in relation to what others have said. First of all, it is pretty obvious that just about everybody agrees that those requirements for verification of the identity of a mortgagor already exist. Indeed, Mr Finlayson himself actually cited other legislation that makes that the case. So how on earth could having this clause in this bill add any additional cost? How could it add any additional complexity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe real point is this: many people forget it is not just about fraud. With respect to Eugenie Sage, who talked only about fraud, remember\u2014mistake. I will tell you of a case that I was involved in, as a very young lawyer, early in my career. It was a case concerning an equitable fraud on a power of appointment. It was a case in which the fraud was alleged to have occurred by a 13-year-old girl who had no idea what she was signing, had not been advised, had no representative, and yet it was she who had allegedly committed this fraud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe point I am making is this: mistakes and wrong procedures happen. It is not just deliberate fraud. That is why this sort of provision is important in this kind of legislation. It actually, again, does not add any costs to any expense or any difficulty whatsoever. It is stuff that the banks already do. This is the Land Transfer Bill. This, above all, is the legislation in which that provision is necessary. It should not have to rely on codes of practice or other legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EFinally, in relation to my SOP 313, that is a very serious issue. If clause 57(3) is not deleted, I believe that serious miscarriages of justice will happen, simply because if that clause continues it will be very difficult for a court to ever be in a position to be able to grant cancellation\u2014very, very difficult indeed. A double hurdle\u2014first, manifest injustice, and secondly, it is the applicant who has to do the proving. The burden of proof is completely wrong. It should be the defendant who does that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EAfter all, applicants will usually apply for both cancellation and compensation. Why not leave it to the court to decide which of the two is the most appropriate? Why hamstring the court from being able to do justice in the way that that clause would do? It just does not make sense. It will cause injustices. I sincerely suggest to the Government that it looks again at that clause 57(3). It should not be in the bill, and it should be taken out. I urge all parties with any common sense at all, or any sense of justice, or understanding of this legislation, to actually vote in favour of Supplementary Order Paper 313 and remove that clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf98d443ba03470dad860e7ad8d69bd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf98d443ba03470dad860e7ad8d69bd7\u0022\u003EPEENI HENARE (Labour\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for allowing this opportunity, Mr Chair. I do not intend on taking up too much time. I just want to say to my colleague that people do care, my friend; they do care. In this particular bill, I want to talk about clause 59(1). The reason I want to talk about this particular clause is due to the response by the Minister who was in the chair, Christopher Finlayson, with regard to M\u0101ori land holdings and, in particular, the court\u2014whether the issues that this Land Transfer Bill deals with will then go on and be heard in the High Court. That is certainly what is proposed under Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EClause 59(1) of the Land Transfer Bill says: \u201CA person may bring a proceeding in the court against the Crown for compensation if the person,\u2014(a) by reason of anything in subsection (2), is deprived of an estate or interest in land; and (b) by this Act, is barred from bringing an action for possession or other action for recovery of the estate or interest \u2026\u201D. I bring up that particular clause because the response from the Minister was talking about M\u0101ori freehold land, and I wonder whether the Minister actually realises just how many issues have come through the M\u0101ori Land Court with M\u0101ori freehold land around succession of landownership\u2014around succession of landownership. I wonder whether this particular bill is proposing, as it does in clause 59(1)\u2014are we asking for, or is there going to be, a large fallout of unintended consequences with regard to M\u0101ori freehold land? It is a shame Mr Finlayson is no longer in the chair. He answered the previous questions really well, and he also talked about the ture whenua and the ownership of M\u0101ori freehold land and what that might mean when an appeal, when the value of the land, or when the ownership of the land are in question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIn these particular clauses, 59(1)(a) and 59(1)(b), I cannot help but think there is going to be a flood of inquiries from M\u0101ori freehold land owners, those who have actually felt that they have not had justice served through the M\u0101ori Land Court. I can give one very quick example: a wh\u0101ngai tamaiti of a land actually succeeded the ownership of his wh\u0101ngai father\u2019s land, despite the four natural kids of the father. The M\u0101ori Land Court actually found in favour of this particular wh\u0101ngai child, and the other actual descendants of the landowner had no recourse to be able to seek justice. I wonder, just in this particular clause, whether or not, as an unintended consequence, there might be a flood of inquiries with regard to this particular clause and all of those M\u0101ori land owners who actually do hold M\u0101ori freehold land. I wonder whether the Minister can address some of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI must say that my comments in this contribution are premised on the response from Minister Finlayson, who was in the chair. I hope that this particular exchange can continue, because I think this is a serious matter\u2014the M\u0101ori Land Court, freehold M\u0101ori land, and whether or not there is a course here now for justice to be sought by those who have felt that they have not had justice heard through the M\u0101ori Land Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 252 in the name of the Hon Louise Upston to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 325 in the name of Denis O\u2019Rourke to insert new clause 9A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022242ea219a4d84aadaceda17bd75685b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 29; Green Party 12; New Zealand First 12.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000668\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 314 in the name of Denis O\u2019Rourke to insert new clause 54 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002276dab0f71985458980cbf6bf8f440a63\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 29; New Zealand First 12.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; Green Party 12; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000669\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 313 in the name of Denis O\u2019Rourke to clause 57 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d8e520a7027d4f7c89331aa5c3e586cb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 29; New Zealand First 12.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; Green Party 12; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000670\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6e46f79d7d44cf68985a3f0caa78a12\u0022\u003EPart 3  Dealings in estates and interests in land\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u002241fa8beeebb14b78aae24a66eb48e626\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241fa8beeebb14b78aae24a66eb48e626\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a call on Part 3. I am particularly interested in clause 99, subclauses (3) and (4). Subclauses (3) and (4) of clause 99 refer to encumbrances, while the immediately preceding subclauses (1) and (2) address mortgages. A common example of the use of encumbrance includes the use in a subdivision to require the owners of the lots to join a residents\u2019 association or society, and pay annual fees. The purposes can be various. The common one in Auckland, I guess, is to limit an owner\u2019s ability to, for instance, install a giant satellite dish in the front garden or the backyard. Another example would include the measures to provide for the obligations of a landowner using council land for such matters as building a retaining wall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ELooking at the bill itself, while the term \u201Cmortgage\u201D is defined, \u201Cencumbrance\u201D is not defined at all. Again, looking at the relevant clauses, it appears that the definition of \u201Cmortgage\u201D, which includes a rent charge or annuity, would include an encumbrance. I had a look at the submission from the New Zealand Law Society. In its submission the Law Society said that this would result in a confusing situation. \u201CBy way of example, presumably clauses 100 to 105 relating to mortgages would extend also to encumbrances.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EHowever, the Law Society believes it would be desirable to state this clearly and explicitly. The New Zealand Law Society in its submission noted that it would be desirable in this bill to define the expression \u201Cencumbrance\u201D. Clause 99(4)(b) referred to the prescribed form of encumbrance, and the Law Society believed that it would be helpful if the prescribed form in the regulations was available at the same time as the final version of the bill. The end result is what we can see in clause 99(4)(b), which now reads \u201Ccontain the prescribed information.\u201D, so the wording \u201Cbe in the prescribed form and\u201D has been deleted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe population in Auckland has gone up by 45,000 a year. We need about 15,000 extra houses a year and we are building only about half that number. Supply is falling far short of the demand, and that puts prices up. The Auckland Council has addressed the problem of not having enough land to build on with the Auckland Unitary Plan, and once the appeals process has been dealt with, it will enable the construction of close to half a million housing units in brownfield developments and about 15,000 units on greenfield sites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EBack to this bill\u2014I agree with what the Law Society\u2019s submission said, which is that there may be \u201Cmany redundant encumbrances which could impede the reasonable use of the burdened land. \u2026 there is a strong case for extending to encumbrances the powers of a court to modify or extinguish covenants in gross.\u201D, as a whole. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00221813702d1fc74eca919a39f5db948233\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221813702d1fc74eca919a39f5db948233\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make a few comments in relation to the new clause 92A in Part 3, and it has to do with leases. I note that in the commentary there is some discussion about the policy intent of the bill in regard to consent for varying a cross-lease, and there was some discussion, I understand, at the Government Administration Committee about this. It is kind of a clarification, really, and is bringing this bill into line with the policy of the 1952 Act. Essentially, the idea is that the cross-lease should be able to be varied only with the consent of all the parties\u2014so, all of the mortgagees\u2014because a variation to one lease may affect the others. The committee has taken the view that it is important that this intention be made explicit, and so it has added in clause 92A. It has also recommended adding a definition of \u201Ccross lease\u201D just to cross the t\u2019s and dot the i\u2019s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThere was also some discussion, I understand, from submitters on this. The Auckland District Law Society was concerned about this gap, and I think it drew the committee\u2019s attention to it, pointing out that clause 92(8) only required consent from a mortgagee for the land subject to the lease. As any kind of variation of one lease would affect the value and potentially the usability of another lease in a cross-lease situation, it proposed the inclusion of what became clause 92A. So it was a pretty useful intervention, I think, and one that was agreed to by the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe officials have said that, essentially, it was the policy intent to align with the 1952 Act. They advised the committee that last year Cabinet rescinded a policy decision from 2010 that had been made to accept the Law Commission\u2019s recommendation, which was to actually remove the requirement to get consent from the mortgagees of all the leases in a cross-lease situation. So I think that has to some extent clarified that. The intervention of the Auckland District Law Society was appreciated in that regard, and I will leave that there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002281d526b65cb74aaba0d3635b21d17df2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281d526b65cb74aaba0d3635b21d17df2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the\u2014oh, Michael Wood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00223df08ee1ac4040e68d83c959a35366c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223df08ee1ac4040e68d83c959a35366c3\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, Mr Chair, I am always delighted to surprise you. I am keen to take a short call on clause 226 of the bill, where I think the Government Administration Committee has actually done some really good work in proposing some quite important changes in respect of the regulation-making powers that are set out in this piece of legislation. It warms the little cockles of my heart\u2014coming from the Regulations Review Committee\u2014to see that scrutiny has been applied in this area. Actually, just looking at the comments in respect of clause 226 and the proposal to insert a new subclause (3), I do note that the Regulations Review Committee does seem to have provided some guidance on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESo what are we talking about here? If we turn to clause 226, it sets out a very broad range of regulations in respect of the bill. These are measures that by Order in Council can be undertaken in terms of applying this bill. They are not necessarily hugely substantial things, but they are quite important\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a736f64247ab4e0cb380f3a75897833b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is about two parts premature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022053c459545614e458edeacfb7b7dce69\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, my apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af64a4e593da4ef68214e952ac56d044\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: We are currently debating Part 3, clauses 73 to 153.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d8e24b174d841e79dd933acce3e1ca7\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, Mr Chair. I will leave it there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 252 in the name of the Hon Louise Upston to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022739ac0f2cc9a4ba1a489b54dda980fdd\u0022\u003EPart 4  Miscellaneous applications and other matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000691\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 252 in the name of the Hon Louise Upston to Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000692\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000693\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002289adb95e233443f8913732746e81e925\u0022\u003EPart 5  Miscellaneous provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00226996a9f93a0741b7825313d5746d32b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226996a9f93a0741b7825313d5746d32b3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: The question now is that Part 5, which is clauses 207 to 247 and schedule 2, stand part. I am assuming that Mr Wood would like a call at this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022af49ce9754f649a8b737d07557edf210\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af49ce9754f649a8b737d07557edf210\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Having tempted the appetites of other members in this Committee to hear about the regulation-making powers that are set out under this bill, I will continue my comments in relation to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI think where I got to was that if we have a look at clause 226, it does set out quite a wide range of regulations. It stretches to, goodness me, a couple of pages of the bill\u2014about three or four pages. Just to give a flavour of some of these, they are some very practical things, but some quite important things. For example, \u201Cspecifying [the] classes of persons\u201D\u2014I am looking at clause 226(12) here; there is actually another addition from the select committee\u2014\u201Cwho must electronically lodge, or direct the electronic lodgement of, an instrument of a specified class \u2026 (12a) specifying classes of electronic instruments that are not capable of electronic lodgement \u2026\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EOf course, this stuff is quite important because it is dealing with electronic means of lodgment, and what we know about that is that if we looked at the different ways in which people might have electronically communicated 10, 15, or 20 years ago, they were quite different to the ways in which we might communicate now. There are constantly different tools and different systems and different channels that people use, and if we want to set up an enduring piece of legislation, there does need to be some regulatory flexibility to be able to include or exclude certain forms of communication. So, looking specifically at paragraphs (12) and (12a) there, which have been inserted by the Government Administration Committee, those do seem to me to be sensible regulations to put in place, to make sure that the Act keeps up with the times in respect of people\u2019s ability to lodge the important information that they will need to under the terms of the Act. It goes on to the various other regulations that it also prescribes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EBut what I really want to get to is clause 226(3), and this is at the bottom of page 117. What it notes, I think quite sensibly, is that \u201CThe Minister must, as soon as practicable after the end of each period of 5 years from the commencement of this section,\u2014(a) commence a review of regulations made under subsection (1)(18); and (b) consider as part of that review whether any matter contained in the regulations should be enacted in this Act.\u201D Let us just take each of those in turn, so firstly clause 226(3)(a). The reason this is important is that when this Parliament, when this House, gives to the executive\u2014and of course the makeup of that executive can change, whoever it is\u2014the powers to make these kinds of regulations, it is appropriate that it is not a lead that can just go and go and go. So I think it does make sense in these cases, particularly with a large and technical bill like this, that it is actually quite central to the way that our economy and society operates. We spoke about this earlier, the fact that having absolute certainty over who owns what bit of land, and what size bit of land that is, and where it is; it is quite important that there is some oversight over that. So where the executive makes regulations having a process whereby we come back and review them in 5 years\u2019 time strikes me as a good measure. I am pleased that the select committee in this case decided to insert that into this bill. I think that is something that, perhaps, should be considered in some of the other bits of legislation that come before this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe second bit, I think, is also a good suggestion, which is that having done that, having conducted that review, if there are regulations that seem to have an enduring quality that are important enough that in 5 years\u2019 time they are still there, they are still relevant, and they are still important in terms of the way that we put this Act into practice, then instead of just having them sitting out there as regulatory powers of the executive, why not actually bring them into the ambit of the Act itself. That to me seems to be a sensible and appropriate thing to do where we determine that about those regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe other addition made, just following on from clause 223, is clause 226A, \u201CRegulations providing for transitional matters\u201D. This to me seemed to be a little bit of an oversight that it was not there in the first place, and that we did not have a clause in the bill that provided for this. We know that in the transition period when a bill like this comes in, there are going to be things that get picked up and will need addressing. So it is entirely sensible and appropriate that the select committee picked that up and inserted it into the bill so that we have got some regulation powers in that transitional period. We certainly support the insertion of that into the bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b36d1d2fa69f4c93af35f255974a1584\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b36d1d2fa69f4c93af35f255974a1584\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a short call, not necessarily with some comments, but observations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe term \u201Cfraud\u201D has not been defined until now. The term \u201Cmortgage\u201D is defined, but \u201Cencumbrance\u201D is not. The term \u201Cadverse possession\u201D, although well defined in common law, is not defined under this bill. Having said that, this is a largely technically laden and, it could be, dry bill, but we did enjoy taking calls on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EFor me, as the newest MP, it is the very first time to have such a great opportunity to have a look at the bill itself. So I would like to thank the Government Administration Committee, which has a wonderful chair, the Hon Ruth Dyson, and again thank the Law Society for its submissions and thank the Law Commission for having shaped and reshaped the bill in such a wonderful form. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 252 in the name of the Hon Louise Upston and on Supplementary Order Paper 323 in the name of the Hon Mark Mitchell to Part 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a916c3eb0e9487dbac041c0fc3b596b\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000709\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 252 in the name of the Hon Louise Upston to schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000710\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000711\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ccceff9502941f082dcd37ad20f0b91\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000713\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 252 in the name of the Hon Louise Upston to schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000714\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000715\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b97883455ea54b8da2d2e67a71c5cc37\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022abf5dc0f4d2041b18c335c7be098b055\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abf5dc0f4d2041b18c335c7be098b055\u0022\u003EPEENI HENARE (Labour\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to take a quick opportunity, I guess, now that we have reached this part of the bill. It always is an interesting part. You hear of some very clever, witty exchanges in the Chamber on these clauses, but I think it is a good opportunity, actually, to summarise what has been a very technical bill that has been debated throughout this particular process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhen we consider some of the content of this particular bill and we look at the title of the Land Transfer Bill, actually, while it states something rather simple, perhaps something a little bit more complex could be given as a title for this particular bill\u2014really, I guess, capturing exactly what it is that is in the bill. There is some very detailed stuff around mortgage issues. I have asked questions about ture whenua and its scope around M\u0101ori freehold land. So perhaps, just as a suggestion, the Land Transfer Bill could be called something a little bit more in line with what the content of the bill is. It could be something like, I do not know, the \u201CLand Technical Holding Bill\u201D. The reason I say that is that, obviously, the technical aspects of this particular bill are over the heads of a heck of a lot of people. But it was said during the debate that lawyers across the country will be celebrating this particular bill to make sure that the land transfers in the future are done properly in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI will close my contribution and just once again thank everyone for their contributions on this bill, the Land Transfer Bill. There could be any number of other names for this particular bill, and I have already offered one in the hope that that could be considered on the floor. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00222b3ccfbb4cd344c89157e0ff8ec3d1e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b3ccfbb4cd344c89157e0ff8ec3d1e6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E While it might be at the end of the debate, I guess the very start, clauses 1 and 2, are arguably the most important parts of a piece of legislation. I know that people who come into Parliament or have anything to do with us often look at the books, the huge volume of books, that we have out in the back here in the lobbies, around Parliament, and through the offices, and they go to look for legislation based on the title of the legislation relating to the interests that they have; in this case it would be land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo there are a couple of questions that I have here, actually, and it might require, perhaps, a further call, I have to say. The first one is that the title clause, clause 1, says: \u201CThis Act is the Land Transfer Act 2016.\u201D Well, I believe it is 2017 now. Given that the commencement date of the piece of legislation may in fact be 2017 or 2018, it is something that needs to be clarified. While this has been a lengthy process and these are quite important issues that have been considered very carefully, I think we should have the date of the bill, actually, when it finally\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c292b7cf270e42a2b9d31870072193dc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: I am now going to interrupt the member. The member has been here for some time and I am sure he realises that the process involves that being changed by a clerical decision in the Clerk\u2019s Office rather than here. I think the member is almost certainly aware of that, and might be having us on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ded73e6ba90043f6a13d831418c05c2b\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I guess it is good to have an assurance on that. That is important. But that is the piece of legislation before us that we are currently discussing in the Committee tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I then go to the substance of the title itself, because, having heard the debate and going through the issues that have been raised, it might be more appropriate to call the legislation the \u201CLand Security Bill\u201D. What it does do, and I think there has been careful consideration and general consensus, is it does update a piece of legislation that started out in 1952, with a few amendments. It updates it, it brings it into the modern world, and it is about security. I think that transfer was the issue back then, when you had to ensure a paper system that allowed, I guess, the tracking of the transfer of that. Now, with the new modern systems that this piece of legislation in fact confirms, endorses, and upholds, of course at the push of a button we have records and computers and databases that actually can record the transfer. But what we have been talking about is the security of the ownership of that: be it through mortgagee sales or through some other rorting, the potential for a person\u2019s property rights in the ownership of a piece of property to be undermined. I think the committee and the members in this Chamber have done a really good job to go through and point to some of those things. So we could, in fact, amend\u2014I am not proposing to put a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) on the table, I have to say, but the bill could be better titled the \u201CLand Security Bill\u201D of 2017\u2014or 2016, subject to the Clerk\u2019s Office to change; I appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIf we go through, then, to the objectives, in clause 3 the purpose, as is pointed out, does more than just ensure safe transfer. I am referring to clause 3 on the basis that the purpose should be properly reflected in the title clause, clause 1. The purpose is about transfer; I accept that, but it is also about the security, which I have mentioned before, and compensation for any loss, and the one that I do have issue with is that it says here that the purpose is the register of land. I have to say it is the partial register, because the refusal of the Government to accept\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1dd613a0732483fadbaa401f029acfa\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: Just come back to clause 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ac564592df040389679ea1303bf4c1b\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, the refusal of the Government to accept an SOP that would have included registration of foreign owners means that we do not have an accurate register of land in this country, because we are not going to register where the people come from, or indeed where we can get hold of them. So given that our topic\u2014[Bell rung] Mr Chairman?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229984274ca0594dce8e192700f7782eaa\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Damien O\u2019Connor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f185c44178e4b74925151d988b4726c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman. They are real issues, and I appreciate the wisdom of the Chair in accepting what might seem pedantic issues to many watching and in the Chamber. This is the crucial part of the legislation: firstly what it is called, and then when it is commenced. I have not even started on clause 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut in clause 1, if we are truly to reflect the purpose of the Act in its title and to assist people in trying to find this piece of legislation when over the next 50 years they go to the books and they go to records to try to find it, then, as I say, it would be better to be the \u201CLand Security Bill\u201D, and I think it might be \u201CLand Security and Register Bill\u201D. If we are to have a truly accurate register of land, then we should say so up front. But, of course, then picking up on my point that actually we are not registering everyone, perhaps it would be inappropriate to have \u201CRegister\u201D. It could be the \u201CLand Security and Partial Register Bill\u201D. These are legitimate points that can be tabled in the Committee. If the Minister was of the mind to accept these, then he is indeed in a position to go and change that, even at the last minute. We could have, perhaps, a change of heart from the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI say that I am a bit disappointed having heard the debate, understanding the importance of this for M\u0101ori, for farmers, for homeowners, and for everyone in the country who wants the property rights to be upheld\u2014not, perhaps, in some of the ways that the Magna Carta Society would have it, but understanding that we are passing through in our lives, we deal with property, and we want some right of ownership and control and security before we pass it on to whomever. So when we get this legislation or when we are changing it we have got to get it right. There are a few SOPs that have been kicked out that would have improved it. I am disappointed at that. But I guess in the end to have the same boring old title as was laid down in 1952\u2014the Land Transfer Act\u2014does not actually truly reflect the new focus that this bill actually offers land security or property rights security and partial register of land title. I rest my case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022225fb9260fd6447194674f057fa2c280\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I too want to add some creative suggestions for the title of this bill, because \u201CLand Transfer Bill\u201D I just feel does not really do it justice. It is too short, and it fails to take into account, I think, a very good Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that Denis O\u2019Rourke brought to the Committee, which\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d81741f05864a0ca4935510b49027dc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: Which has been voted down and therefore is not relevant to this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215a60c13a650491b92b95699eed6f6a2\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: So it is too late to even propose it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea2ecce0393a4a5c916440330dbcb947\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4329bee9c5f4a8ab8f54799d521d44a\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: OK, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d28462bb0bea4f108fa451a2c3cde25d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: Unless there is an SOP on the Table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272068db6721747a4b269725c2f523921\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I will rest my case, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbe5173abbc74444b84fa45690f17913\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbe5173abbc74444b84fa45690f17913\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to rise and speak on the title and commencement clauses of the bill. It is difficult, after the tour de force that Damien O\u2019Connor has offered us on the title, looking at it from many, many different angles, but I think there are a few things that we do need to consider here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWhat I want to suggest in respect of the title is that we do actually look at a different option, and one of the things that I know many of us have valued about this debate is that we have actually learnt a bit more about the importance of land transfer in our economy and our society, and some of the core principles that underpin it. The most important one, which we have spoken about a lot today, actually, is the Torrens system. It has been raised by a number of members in the course of the debate, and actually we had a very good discussion about it from the previous Minister in the chair, Christopher Finlayson, who some of us might note was, in a relative sense, a little bit more active in terms of engaging in the debate. He gave us a very good exposition of the origins of the Torrens system and its importance in terms of New Zealand having a settled and secure and trusted system of landownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EAs Mr O\u2019Connor said, this bill goes back to 1952 in New Zealand\u2014there were previous iterations\u2014but the principles of the Torrens system go back to the 19th century. It was explained to us that Mr Torrens\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb674818b29847768f91ba38aa9aca42\u0022\u003EPaul Foster-Bell\u003C/span\u003E: Sir Robert.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f91f300016fe4655a6c39567e36098dc\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Sir Mr Torrens?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022928275d393e84f18a49cffb3408172df\u0022\u003EPaul Foster-Bell\u003C/span\u003E: Sir Robert Richard Torrens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ba61537a3db4346b449fc66e262355a\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Foster-Bell\u2014he never misses a beat. He was based in South Australia at that time, sort of in a frontier country, as New Zealand was at the time, and there was a real importance in terms of establishing a secure system of landownership and transfer. So my suggestion in terms of the title of the bill is that we could amend it to be the \u201CLand Transfer (Torrens System Security of Ownership) Bill\u201D. That to me would really point to the historical roots of what we are talking about here in terms of our system of landownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWe discussed the fact that the Torrens system has embedded within it that important principle of indefeasibility\u2014that notion that, basically, you cannot turn it over. You can take it to the bank. If you own a piece of land and it is on the register that is controlled by the State and it says \u201CHere\u2019s this piece of land, here\u2019s how big it is, here\u2019s where it is, here\u2019s when it was transferred.\u201D, that is it. You basically cannot dispute that, and that is absolutely essential to the way that our economy and our society operate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESo I do want to move on to a question that arises, actually, in the commencement clause, and it would be outstanding if the Minister in the chair, Michael Woodhouse, could give a little bit more guidance on this. I will just bring up clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D, here. Clause 2(1) says: \u201CThis Act comes into force on a date appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council.\u201D Clause 2(2) says: \u201COne or more orders may be made under subsection (1) bringing different provisions into force on different dates.\u201D I am happy to stand here and say that I am a relatively new member, so it may be that this is quite a common provision, but I would be interested to know in respect of this particular piece of legislation the reasons that we think there is value in bringing different bits in at different times, and what parts of the legislation we might think might come in first and which might come in later, and the rationale that sits in behind that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThat does seem to me to be quite important, because if we go back to what this bill is about, it is about people understanding how land is owned and how it is transferred. It goes to a whole range of matters around how the people who are involved in transactions, such as banks, mortgagees, and mortgagors, interact with one another, and I think for security, for certainty, we should know which bits of this bill will come in at which times and what the sequencing of those will be. This is a many-latticed thing, and one part of the bill interacts with another part of the bill. So we want to have some certainty, I think, as a Committee, before we know that this bill is signed off, that that question around when different parts are going to commence has really been thought through by the Government before this bill comes into effect. So it would be really good if Minister Woodhouse could give us some guidance on that and answer that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn wrapping up, those are the two key points. I think we could be a bit more expansive with the title to recognise how important this is and some of those key principles, including the Torrens system, that underlie it, and there could be some certainty around the commencement. This bill has been developed in a collaborative way, with a Government Administration Committee process that Labour members have been very happy to engage in, and there has been a range of really sensible changes that have come into it here. We think it is a shame some of the Supplementary Order Papers have been shot down today\u2014they would have improved it\u2014but overall it is a good bill that modernises our land transfer system. With those changes that I have recommended, I am very happy to vote for it this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00222d5fa83018e04a92b9099689dbd62b3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d5fa83018e04a92b9099689dbd62b3e\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E I am appreciating the time that we are considering this bill. Looking back on how long it has taken this bill to come to the Committee, I think it has even outlasted our former leader, who has moved on\u2014and the legislation is still around\u2014who was the spokesperson, and who, I think, put a lot of good wisdom into the whole process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut in relation to clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D, I am just trying to think back to a piece of legislation that I have spoken on that is basically open slather on, or no clear indication of, when it will be implemented. In relation to the three subclauses to clause 2, I have got three questions: when, why, and what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe first question is in relation to subclause (1), \u201C\u2026 on a date appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council.\u201D, which is without any clear idea of when that might be. The Minister might want to take a call and give the Committee, and, I guess, the many, many thousands of people who will be watching this debate, some idea of when this might come into play. It is a substantive piece of legislation. It is about their property rights. Every Kiwi who has a bit of property or an interest in property should be interested that we are doing the right thing here, but what we are not able to say is actually when this is going to come into effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn relation to subclause (2) of clause 2: \u201COne or more orders may be made under subsection (1)\u201D\u2014that is the first part\u2014\u201Cbringing different provisions into force on different dates.\u201D So the point made by my colleague Michael Wood is quite right. We have no idea when the Government might choose to bring these things into play. In fact, in the transfer, or the security\u2014which I was referring to in my earlier speech\u2014we have no idea when that might come into play or when that might offer the support, security, and certainty to New Zealanders, because there is so much leeway in subclause (2) here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo, firstly, we do not know when any of it might be brought into play; then we are told that, actually, they can basically choose to bring in parts of it whenever they like. Then, subclause (3) states: \u201CAny provision that has not earlier been brought into force comes into force on the day that is \u2026\u201D 12 months here, but with Minister Upston\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 252, we understand that it will go out to 18 months. The question I ask is given the flexibility in the first two subclauses, why are we then asking for another 18 months for other parts that we do not know about? That is the \u201Cwhat\u201D. So subclause (1) is the \u201Cwhen\u201D\u2014we want to know when they will bring it in. Why would you then have different parts of it on different dates? And, thirdly, what are you going to leave out that will then take 18 months, not 12 months as originally proposed, to bring into law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI think it is a little remiss of Parliament, of the Committee here tonight, to hand over to the Government such an important piece of legislation and then say: \u201CWell, you can bring it in when you like, and you can mix it up however you want, and then if you want to leave things out, you can for up to 18 months.\u201D What kind of mess will that leave for Landonline or for lawyers or people involved in conveyancing? How will they know what part of the law is in place at what time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI think those three questions are legitimate. It would be great to hear the Minister clarify those, before this Committee finally says yes to move a piece of legislation forward that is so important, but so confusing, even in clause 2. I think it is a perfectly reasonable proposition, as pointed out by Michael Wood, and backed up by myself, that we get clarity on when clause 2(1) might come into force, why we should then leave different parts of it out, and what would be delayed for up to 18 months, which is an amendment by Minister Upston at the last minute from the 12-month period originally proposed in the piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u002245f645e0af8849b2ac3de08bc0dfe179\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245f645e0af8849b2ac3de08bc0dfe179\u0022\u003EMEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E I do want to take a call on clauses 1 and 2, in terms of the title and commencement date, following on from my colleagues. I guess I want to suggest, given the debate around this particular bill, around the concerns that I have expressed in several contributions in this debate\u2014and that is on behalf of my constituents around M\u0101ori land owners in Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThe question is: is this bill better titled \u201CThe Real Te Ture Whenua\u201D? Is it better titled \u201CThe Real Te Ture Whenua Bill\u201D? The reason why I say that is that we are changing M\u0101ori land law, but we have no details, particularly around the critical issue of the M\u0101ori Land Service. We have debated this particular bill, particularly Part 2 that introduced the role of the register and its roles and responsibilities, which is what M\u0101ori land owners are waiting for, with bated breath, in terms of Te Ture Whenua. I say that because maybe the answer\u2014and we did ask the Minister in the chair at the time, but unfortunately there was a change. I was looking forward to that particular Minister getting up and clarifying for us around the registration that we debated in this particular bill, and those that I mentioned in terms of Te Ture Whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo, getting back to the title, there is a title that may be more appropriate for this bill. It is fresh, it is innovative, it reflects our bicultural nature in this country\u2014or it may clarify exactly how M\u0101ori land owners are going to have their land managed going forward under this National Government. So there is a suggestion. Another suggestion around the title could be, I do not know, \u201CAotearoa Whenua Transfer Bill.\u201D That could be another way to modernise the state of the country that we are in, in 2017 and going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIn terms of the commencement date, I do want to pick up the comment and add to the question around why 18 months. You have heard several members on this side of the Chamber make the comparison between this bill and Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Bill, and the 18 months\u2019 commencement date is absolutely the same in Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Bill. The question I too want to ask, alongside my colleague Damien O\u2019Connor, is why the delay? What is happening with this Government, and why are we not going to implement or commence this particular bill that we are debating, according to clause 2, for 18 months once we have passed this through? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI have not heard the Minister in the chair, Michael Woodhouse. Maybe he could enlighten us as to why 18 months\u2014why that is. We have not heard any contribution from the National benches as to why that may be the case, during the whole debate on this bill, but I do want to ask the Minister in the chair whether he could help alleviate some of the concerns I have had around that 18-month period, like my colleague, and also around the connection I have made from the title around the Land Transfer Bill to Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI think it is more important that we get a modern title that reflects, like I said earlier, the bicultural nature that we have in New Zealand and the role that M\u0101ori whenua plays in this country, alongside the general title, the Torrens system that we have just debated in this bill. I think it is time to get a fresh approach. Clearly the Minister, because he has not risen to his feet\u2014maybe that is a sign of agreement with what we are suggesting around a more modern and more fresh title. I commend this bill to the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 252 in the name of the Hon Louise Upston to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b12980f41dea4efc9c175138c5fe690b\u0022\u003ETe Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002288a127e0e4074aad987e32a9580cc71a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000770\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 31 May.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a0cb4a0f34f4e05bb024c992c49a7e9\u0022\u003EPart 5  Authority to act in relation to M\u0101ori freehold land (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a96daeb106ca43b59cfcced2cfa18d79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a96daeb106ca43b59cfcced2cfa18d79\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: When we were last considering the bill we were debating Part 5. Meka Whaitiri had the call, and while she had 4 minutes and 27 seconds remaining, we are going to be really generous and give her 5 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u00220ab1c634e47047aca664cbd82bc8f316\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ab1c634e47047aca664cbd82bc8f316\u0022\u003EMEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair, and thank you very much for giving me a full 5 minutes for this contribution, and for reminding the Committee that we are debating Part 5. Part 5 is \u201CAuthority to act in relation to M\u0101ori freehold land\u201D. This is where the rubber hits the road, because in this part we are talking about the role of governing bodies. This part talks about the establishment of governance bodies, who appoints them, what their role is going to be, and how they are going to be managed, so this particular part, like I said, is where the rubber hits the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI want to say to the Minister in the chair, Te Ururoa Flavell, that I have put a few tabled amendments on the Table there. I apologise if I have repeated myself from the last speech, but I think it is important in my 5 minutes that I do go through my tabled amendments that relate to Part 5. Let us start with clause 132. No, clause 132 has been debated; my apologies. Let us start with clause 154(1)(b), which is in Part 5. After \u201Chow governance agreements are\u201D, my amendment is suggesting that we insert \u201Creviewed and\u201D. If we go to clause 154(1)(b), where it talks about the \u201COverview of provisions relating to governance bodies\u201D, we have got \u201Cincludes provisions relating to the registration of governance agreements, the transfer of assets and liabilities to governance bodies when they are appointed, quorum and eligibility requirements for kaitiaki of certain governmental bodies, and how governance arrangements are cancelled.\u201D I am suggesting in my amendment to clause 154(1)(b) that after \u201Chow governance agreements\u201D we add \u201Creviewed and\u201D. That is to ensure that we have the ability not only to cancel but also to review governance arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EMy second amendment in Part 5 is to clause 184. I will give the Minister and myself a chance to turn to that particular clause; we are talking about subclause (4)(a) of clause 184. In this particular part we are talking about the kaitiaki, their numbers and their eligibility, and we are talking about who will be disqualified as a kaitiaki in subclause (4) of clause 184.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIn the bill, we talk about criminal history, and in there we say \u201Cthe person has been convicted within the last 5 years of an offence relating to fraud or dishonesty (whether convicted in New Zealand or overseas):\u201D. So we are saying that a person is disqualified if they have been convicted within the last 5 years. My amendment is suggesting that 5 years is too low\u20145 years is too low\u2014and I am suggesting that that should be lifted to at least 10 years. The reason why I have said 10 years is that M\u0101oris have got memories like elephants, and when you have committed a criminal offence that stigma, even though you have served your time and you have served your punishment, remains. I want to make sure, for the benefit of M\u0101ori land owners, that they do not get themselves in a situation with a kaitiaki who has just come out of a \u201Ccriminal history\u201D\u2014and it says there: for \u201Cfraud or dishonesty\u201D\u2014where the limit is only 5 years. So I just want to make sure that I have explained why I think that is necessary\u2014that we lift that up from 5 to 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIn the last minute that I have\u2014if I could ask the Minister to turn to clause 193, which talks about the process for appointing kaiwhakahaere. In subclause 4 of clause 193, as I interpret it\u2014and the Minister may have a different view\u2014we talk about \u201CThe court is not required to direct the chief executive to arrange a meeting of the owners under subsection 2(a) if the court is satisfied that\u2014(a) the proposal to appoint a kaiwhakahaere has already been sufficiently considered by a meeting of the owners; or (b) the matter requiring the appointment of the kaiwhakahaere is sufficiently urgent to justify appointing a kaiwhakahaere without a meeting of owners being held; or (c) in relation to the matter requiring the appointment of a kaiwhakahaere\u201D, and it goes into the subparagraphs. My amendment is that I actually think that, whatever we are doing with M\u0101ori land, M\u0101ori land owners should actually meet about it. That particular clause, as I read it, actually gives the chief executive\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00224f44b4739b6940599f7f38b8e3dc26c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f44b4739b6940599f7f38b8e3dc26c1\u0022\u003EHon TE URUROA FLAVELL (Minister for M\u0101ori Development):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. Kia ora t\u0101tau katoa e Te Whare, i \u0101 t\u0101tau e w\u0101nanga nei i t\u014D t\u0101tau whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EKa tangi ake ki te \u0101huatanga \u014D w\u0101 t\u0101tau mate e hoa m\u0101, te \u0101huatanga ki a Iwikatea Nicholson e takoto mai r\u0101 ki t\u014Dna marae, ka mutu, ki a Ng\u0101neko Minhinnick n\u014D n\u0101 tata nei a ia i tukuna atu ai ki te k\u014Dp\u016B o papatu\u0101nuku; t\u0113r\u0101 momo kua ngaro atu i \u0101 t\u0101tau. Me tangi ka tika; waiho r\u0101tau kia okioki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAnei t\u0101tau e hui nei i t\u0113nei p\u014D, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Chair. Acknowledgments to us all, the House, as we here debate our land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI really grieve the circumstances of our deaths, fellow colleagues: that one relating to Iwikatea Nicholson, lying over there upon his marae and, furthermore, to Ng\u0101neko Minhinnick, who was just recently released into the bosom of Mother Earth; that ilk is lost from us. How fitting, indeed, that we mourn; allow them collectively to rest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EHere we are, meeting here this evening; my appreciation to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIf I can just say that we pay our respects to Ng\u0101neko Minhinnick and Iwikatea Nicholson today, who have recently passed away, in this last week, and on their marae up in Levin\u2014huge advocates for kaupapa M\u0101ori, tikanga M\u0101ori and, indeed, M\u0101ori land. So I just wanted to pay respects to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe last time we were debating this bill a number of members made a few comments. I would like to go back to them, just for the record, to make sure that we cover those off and, indeed, address some of the issues that the member Meka Whaitiri has put towards the bill tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESome members question aspects of the bill that are actually features of the current Act and have long been part of M\u0101ori law\u2014land law, at least. Pita Paraone referred to clause 170, which requires the Registrar-General of Land to show a governance body as the registered proprietor of M\u0101ori freehold land for which it was appointed. The member said this was a departure from the current process, and suggested that this was the first step to bringing M\u0101ori land under the general land title system. Actually, I can tell the member that M\u0101ori freehold land is and has been a part of the wider land transfer system of titles in this country since its inception\u2014since 1870, in fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dc6813c9c334f29b2f0e46703fd9ecf\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: I think what I actually said is that it would do away with the M\u0101ori Land Court, which is much different from what you\u2019ve just said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b377db9dc014f48a5b12fc43b44af79\u0022\u003EHon TE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want to say too much to Mr Paraone, but section 10 of the current Land Transfer Act 1952 makes M\u0101ori freehold land subject to that Act, and sections 1 to 3 of the current Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993 require every M\u0101ori Land Court order that affects or relates to the title in any M\u0101ori freehold land to be sent to the land register for registration under the general land title system. If the member has any concern about the registration process then I think he is about 150 years too late.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ETo clarify this for the member, I note that the records of the M\u0101ori Land Court are a part of the court register and not a land register, and they record the decisions and proceedings of the court. We currently have only one land titles register in this country. There is no current statutory provision for the M\u0101ori Land Court records to be a land titles register. The bill will change this, Mr Paraone. For the first time there will be a formal M\u0101ori land register provided in statute and backed by statute, sitting alongside the land transfer register of titles. I hope that helps the member. In fact, M\u0101ori land titles will be protected by a dual system of registers, and I will say a little bit more about that for the member\u2019s benefit when we get to Part 8 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe member also questioned why a minor who is a sole owner of a parcel of M\u0101ori freehold land could not have that interest protected by having a governance body appointed. As we discussed during the debate\u2014I think it was Part 3\u2014the bill provides a mechanism for the interests of minors to be protected, namely through the appointment of kaiwhakamarumaru, and when it comes to governance bodies I would like to point out to the member that under the current Act you need at least two owners to form a M\u0101ori corporation. Under the previous Act it required at least five owners, and before that at least three owners. So, once again, this bill is simply building on existing approaches in law, where it is sensible enough to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe member Adrian Rurawhe referred to clause 156, as did the member Meka Whaitiri, and questioned why, when a governance body is appointed, the owners become the beneficial owners and not the legal owners. He suggested there could be other options, such as appointing a custodian trustee. It does not matter whether you have a custodian trustee, which under the bill the owners can still choose to do if they think that is the best option for them, or whether you just have a governance body. In either case the trustee or the governance body becomes the legal owner of the land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs I explained when I took a previous call on this, this is no different from the current law where either the custodian trustee or the responsible trustees of an ahu whenua trust or a M\u0101ori incorporation become the legal owners of the land. The owners themselves do not become the beneficial owners. They remain the beneficial owners. [Bell rung] Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022637a00c6aad6430594a3dd34b99c91e8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to call the Minister, but I am going to reiterate a warning that I have given to the Minister previously about reading speeches. I know he is replying to a lot of the comments, but the practice of Ministers reading speeches in Committee is something that is certainly to be discouraged and has been discouraged by Chairs and Speakers in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225563f37bc6464fe9826d2bc4be480689\u0022\u003EHon TE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the help. I think that because of the importance of this bill I wanted to make sure this is on record and just for the purposes of replying to the points. But the point is well made, and I appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269b95ea0cedf40a3b40a5a6724a93c61\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: Sure. The third reading is the normal place to do that, but carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe24d9bfd556454094eac213017082a3\u0022\u003EHon TE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: Sure. Thank you. I have talked about having taken a previous call, and we spoke to some of these issues. So I just wanted to reiterate that the legal owner simply holds the land on behalf of the owners, and for their benefit, in accordance with the conditions that the owners set out in their governance agreements. So it is pretty simple and straightforward, and I hope that helped Mr Rurawhe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ELouisa Wall also questioned the issue, as did Meka Whaitiri\u2014I think, under clause 193. Kaiwhakahaere will be appointed by the M\u0101ori Land Court, and the process involves a meeting of owners so the court can be informed of the owners\u2019 views before making an appointment. The first point to make is that this is also the current process under current law for appointing agents for the owners, under section 10 of the current Act. I will not go into what the current section 10 is\u2014simply to make that point. But the process under the bill for appointing kaiwhakahaere is basically the same as the current process for appointing agents. The chief executive has the responsibility to report the views to the owners, and this is, I am told, not a power of recommendation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ECan I finally just go to Louisa Wall, who raised a concern about the possibility of having more than one potential representative entity and how it would be determined which one would have priority. I am advised that there is no reason why, amongst a group of owners, there cannot be more than one entity that represents a hap\u016B, an iwi, associated with that particular piece of land. I think the real point to be made here is that the owners do not have to appoint any representative entity as their governance body if they do not want to. That is the great thing about the bill; there is an element of choice available to them. It is not about telling them what to do. It is their choice in the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI want to\u2014finally, just in the time left\u2014talk to Meka Whaitiri\u2019s comment about financial implications associated with the governance model. The exposure draft did indeed require existing trustees and incorporations to transition to the new governance model. I think that it will be clear to the Committee that we attempted, through the changes made, to take that away. As a consequence of the changes that have been made now, existing trusts and incorporations will not have to face the costly transition unless they wish to, by their own choice, move to adopt the new model. I think that has been well canvassed, so I do not intend to go over that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EMeka Whaitiri also wanted to take in her amendment to clause 154, which she referred to just recently. She suggested a change, to clarify that this subpart include provisions about governance entities and how they are reviewed. Clause 154 summarises the provisions relating to governance entities, and that is set out in Part 5. I think it would be very misleading to include the proposed changes in this provision. Under the bill, the role of the M\u0101ori Land Court is limited to reviewing the process by which the governance agreement is prepared, and not to review the governance agreement itself. That is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EMeka Whaitiri also suggested amending clause 184 to provide that a person may not be appointed as a kaitiaki if they have been convicted of dishonesty offences in the last 10 years\u2014that is the substance of her amendment. I do support the concerns that she has been talking about, in terms of dishonestly of kaitiaki, but I think that that proposed change would hold the governors of M\u0101ori entities to a much higher standard than those who are currently managing other companies. I am advised that clause 184 is modelled on section 382 of the Companies Act 1993, which limits criminal history and exclusions to convictions in the last 5 years. So I think there is an element of needing to have consistency across the board, and not just have it that M\u0101ori land is subject to a higher threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo I think that the two provisions need to be consistent. But the one thing that M\u0101ori land owners did say in our consultation process about this whole issue was that our people should be held to similar standards\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00223e12bd2b818a4945af069e1cd3a0932b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e12bd2b818a4945af069e1cd3a0932b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard)\u003C/span\u003E: I regret that the time has come for me to leave the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Point England Development Enabling Bill with amendment, the Energy Innovation (Electric Vehicles and Other Matters) Amendment Bill without amendment, the Land Transfer Bill with amendment, and progress on Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201706212527aa09f1bc4cbda9b800555d760a98000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"