"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e9b2eaeff3747eea142691b34768b00\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 4 APRIL 2018\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d6006b1909de41aba4c694f30ecbcbbd\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 4 APRIL 2018\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002273b99ef8feed4739836671c4a7e8acb1\u0022\u003EList Member Vacancy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5b514ee4331413eb50753480fa7b379\u0022\u003EList Member Vacancy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00221db367475b0d44d6885458dfe676f7b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221db367475b0d44d6885458dfe676f7b1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have been advised by the Electoral Commissioner that, pursuant to section 137 of the Electoral Act 1993, Nicola Valentine Willis has been declared to be elected a member of the House of Representatives in place of the Hon Steven Joyce. I understand that Nicola Willis is present and wishes to take the Oath of Allegiance. Would she please come forward to the chair on my right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a834ee4538a46f38e568f6d8e592472\u0022\u003EMembers Sworn\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002243c657398fd84186b96960217f116333\u0022\u003EMembers Sworn\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000009\u0022\u003ENicola Willis presented herself to the Speaker, took the Oath of Allegiance required by law, and took her seat in the House.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022628861af57834fd1a7f066e3b8947a5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022628861af57834fd1a7f066e3b8947a5d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As the member is signing, I was just noting that the last person who had the name Valentine was Ross Robertson: HRV\u2014Harold Ross Valentine Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002213499f223c934a6797cb564c33d91794\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb0fcec21b24431db12505f4553dea51\u0022\u003EAdverse Weather (Timber Recovery on Conservation Lands) Bill\u2014Leave to Introduce\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00224daafd19fdf74e8797c186ec24d9aa56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224daafd19fdf74e8797c186ec24d9aa56\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to introduce the Adverse Weather (Timber Recovery on Conservation Lands) Bill, a member\u2019s bill in my name\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022d40cdf89971a431ab8acffa1ea970a7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d40cdf89971a431ab8acffa1ea970a7a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s sought leave for a particular bill. Is there any objection to that? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002201b8b2b541154746a7745fcc05086b0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201b8b2b541154746a7745fcc05086b0a\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3631b2a885a47248f97c3053ca61274\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order. I hope we\u2019re not going to go backwards over a matter that\u2019s been dealt with, Mr Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc0afda2665a45369d42a716bcd65bfa\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m aware of what\u2019s in the leave motion. There is more in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2fef8a878704ba5aca87b96df80dcf3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member proposing to introduce another bill or to do something further?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291cfd36506484eae9b383a7385e1b4ea\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, on numerous occasions in here, people have moved to have a bill introduced and read at a particular time. That is simply the balance of the motion that the member is moving, and I think the House should hear it before it makes a decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022d42f422d53d840af9d2f1b279bce8cf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d42f422d53d840af9d2f1b279bce8cf0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I apologise for interrupting the member, but her leave has been dealt with. Leave was not granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd2c20432f9d4272966ebd2bc772aa71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd2c20432f9d4272966ebd2bc772aa71\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If the leave motion was not completely put to the House, then hearing part of a motion you sought from the Government their opinion, how can it be reasonable to say that the House has considered the motion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022d128f5a2e56345658b89b91f5efcf9cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d128f5a2e56345658b89b91f5efcf9cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m not saying the House has considered the motion, because there was no motion. It was leave. The leave to which bill it applied was absolutely clear. That\u2019s been put to the House and members have said no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ebc79a13107a4d20bd4d02273eb135f4\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea64ea4033a54d45b4b798d97ecb8fac\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022779e3d34b99341ea85692a0b9b649060\u0022\u003EGovernment Financial Position\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00223a9ddb14d8604c4e8bd92550f9ee40dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a9ddb14d8604c4e8bd92550f9ee40dd\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he received on the Government\u2019s financial statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u002207f767b41fb44d639a1ec982cdb67f40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207f767b41fb44d639a1ec982cdb67f40\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Associate Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: Treasury this morning released the Crown financial results for the eight months to the end of February. The Government\u2019s accounts continue to track slightly better than expected, with the Government surplus nearly $500 million higher than the Treasury forecast in December. This reflects underlying economic conditions, with surveys of business and consumer confidence pointing to sustainable growth rates of about 3 percent over the next few years for the New Zealand economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8cd0843e53b48aca2cf1d37ab43a7ef\u0022\u003EDr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: What did Treasury say led to the better than expected results? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c896b978df684cb2aa4a2b7adfc71595\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: A strong jobs market this year has meant employment growth has been higher in recent months than Treasury expected, meaning PAYE is above forecast. Greater residential investment and private consumption has boosted GST receipts, while a rise in customs and excise duties has also contributed to core Crown tax revenue coming in $692 million better than expected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280bc47b6bea44bcf92b21ef0c28f0e75\u0022\u003EDr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: What other recent economic reports has he seen? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee4923091e2240a1b5a5a1f356e4ca57\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: A consumer confidence report out from ANZ-Roy Morgan today shows that consumers are \u201Cfeeling assured\u201D. The current conditions index and the future conditions index are both considerably higher than they were at the end of 2017. As ANZ chief economist Sharon Zollner said, \u201CConsumer confidence remains high. And why not? Jobs are plentiful, there\u2019s talk of higher wages, and the Auckland housing market has found a floor.\u201D This is also off the back of another improvement in business confidence for their own activity, with both reports pointing to sustainable economic growth rates of about 3 percent a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022133f22cc86d34a1a94404b2fa6112f68\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u2014Confidence in the Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u00221af153ac7d5548f7a8e76762e02b2010\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221af153ac7d5548f7a8e76762e02b2010\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in all her Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00226b2e89efb8b84e258ad7f02bf73e5a38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b2e89efb8b84e258ad7f02bf73e5a38\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e5fd5eb3d424003a261e8e102c78084\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Was the real reason Clare Curran advised Radio New Zealand chair, Mr Griffin, not to appear before the upcoming select committee not to correct the record faster but, in fact, to ensure questions wouldn\u2019t be able to be asked and answered in Parliament about the Carol Hirschfeld meeting? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227914c9476b2348b6b5c7a246509564b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c311bc3397ff449a9b0836471d20c244\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: If the real reason was to get a letter of correction in as soon as possible, why didn\u2019t Clare Curran advise Mr Griffin to do that and, in the interests of openness and transparency, also appear before the upcoming select committee to answer the questions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a6301de331a4590908da863804caf5f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, it will be on record that Radio New Zealand were due to appear on Thursday. When it was drawn to Minister Curran\u2019s attention that they were unable to appear, she passed on advice on the quickest way to correct the record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d2e3e5fcd5e4963b171b2c16d418a2d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: If Clare Curran was so concerned about ensuring the select committee record was corrected, why did she wait over three weeks to tell Richard Griffin to correct the record? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227faa84d537b248d499d1af7dde71ca5e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That is incorrect. My understanding is that her office advised Radio New Zealand on the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022163ba41c39294de4acc2e2e2866bf586\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Was it wrong, no matter what the reason, for Clare Curran to advise the chair of New Zealand\u2019s independent radio broadcaster, Radio New Zealand, not to appear at the upcoming select committee to answer questions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d8de22ae2de49b78de2b6157797af62\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the premise of that question. As has been stated, when it was found by the Minister they were unable to appear on Thursday, she left a message with the chair around the possibility of correcting the record in writing\u2014something that the other side of the House has held the Minister to account on; correcting the record as soon as is available. Can I also\u2014while I\u2019m at it\u2014point out that when it comes to written questions, there have been a number of occasions where both sides of the House have had to correct the record. I asked the Parliamentary Library for the number of times it happened for the National Government in Opposition, and the truth is it took them too long to get me an answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022276b2bb21af04c4ba5b1ddbf0ca92070\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Oh, you continue with that affirmation and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022572de6171e904426ab9edaef07d862af\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. It\u2019s really whether the member should be, I\u2019m sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e138285bea4432d9e20d7e59d607593\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Sooner or later, it might stick. The issue here is that some weeks ago, you admonished the Government for constantly taking a flick, in the answers to their questions, at the previous Government. You further, this week, have been quite firm and removed supplementaries from this side of the House for inappropriate comments added to questions to the Government. The Prime Minister\u2019s attempt here, saying \u201CWhile I\u2019m at it\u201D, simply led into what is, effectively, an unnecessary attack on the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7df2a75c0524619a55d94bb03dea490\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, the origin of this issue is the error that the Minister made in not correcting a written answer some months ago. I was simply pointing out that when it comes to the standard the Opposition is lending itself to for the Government, there are so many occasions of corrected written answers that the Parliamentary Library cannot provide me with a number.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a069bacbaf234a769b53d55c1119230f\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: The point, though, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e99023986c94e2288cd4aab19e58662\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking further to the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f7d21759921420988db372d15fa2a57\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I am. The point here is that while the Prime Minister may wish to characterise the questioning from the Leader of the Opposition and other members from this side of the House as being about a simple mistake, the reality is it\u2019s about what was behind that simple mistake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200c7b148a42840a78f2d25fd6558a5f9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, OK, and that\u2019s not going to be traversed here, is it. No. OK. I feel somewhat responsible myself for the situation that we have got into because the Leader of the Opposition essentially asked a question from which I inferred a breach of privilege on the part of a member. And that is something which I should\u2019ve pulled up at the time and not allowed the question to proceed. Having allowed that to proceed, I decided to, effectively, play the advantage and give the Prime Minister some more latitude because it was a serious and unparliamentary accusation that had been made by Mr Bridges. I should\u2019ve stopped it, and I apologise to the House for doing that now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aea97842d92c4573adc32a12931483bc\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What will the Prime Minister do if she finds out that Clare Curran\u2019s voicemail to Mr Griffin does suggest that he does not appear at tomorrow\u2019s select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ba58eef4c364ec3b82f8a0d8bae7c5a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister has articulated, her recollection of the message she left was simply based on the fact that the chair could not attend as was previously scheduled and that in order to correct the record quickly he could do that in writing in lieu of an appearance. When the chair phoned her back to say, \u201CI\u2019m already scheduled to attend. Let me know if there\u2019s a problem.\u201D, the Minister did not respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a8646384a1a430f84a1aec8b61275ea\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Having advised Mr Griffin to not appear before the upcoming select committee, hasn\u2019t Clare Curran compromised her right to represent the Government as the Minister for openness and transparency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203c8121a28764ceb8282936513028b13\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I reject the premise of that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5cfa95eaa5242adbbe0b6f7e3111ad2\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware of anyone other than Clare Curran advising Mr Griffin to write a letter of correction rather than appear before the upcoming parliamentary select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234c5ac8078b54785b85c5bd2183f187b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As was canvassed in the House yesterday when the Minister couldn\u2019t reach the chair, she did speak to the chief executive of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage about the issue in case he chose to convey that message as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229563368913b745aca146d63f44197ce1\u0022\u003EEconomic Programme\u2014Fuel Tax, Support for Families, and Transport Infrastructure Spending\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbbdcba0da6e4aa494dc117668fa2589\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbbdcba0da6e4aa494dc117668fa2589\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s policies and proposals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00225b31ec98f5954ded8b6befde2a8a9b79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b31ec98f5954ded8b6befde2a8a9b79\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232b8c2a8a24f4efdafea7892f8e2b87b\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What is her justification for gutting $5 billion from regional New Zealand in order to make public transport cheaper for some Aucklanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eb03354fcd54296a1624a6341a1f7f6\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m glad\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278700178dfbd420394f5d24349cef39f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! No. I\u2019m going to ask the Leader of the Opposition to ask that question again in a parliamentary form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022784fc958cff34d0991b7846d0d5413c5\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What is her justification for reducing by $5 billion regional New Zealand funding in roading in order to make public transport cheaper for some Aucklanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba1df1fd9f464bb687905f8f31775cc5\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m glad the member asked that question. We\u2019re not. In fact, what we are doing is, instead of spending money that 4 percent of transport users use, as that Government did, we\u2019re investing in regional and local roads\u2014in fact, doubling the amount of investment in regional and local roading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5157ff81f514e3296c3bd571588cc18\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is the State highway improvements class reducing by $5 billion over the next 10 years and the various public transport classes increasing by around $5 billion; if so, why is she so afraid of owning that fact?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022305200f203954201862ea83d27b6588c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0aa1874742d485fba49af6e591ea387\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022723cdc8773d04ea09f1ee8d047117d3f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member will resume her seat. That question is ruled out. [Interruption] No, the Prime Minister can\u2019t respond. I let the Deputy Prime Minister last week, and we got into all sorts of trouble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc30562c70a74c5a80612af0023d9c7e\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is the State highway improvements class declining by $5 billion over the next 10 years and the various public transport classes increasing by around $5 billion; and, if so, why doesn\u2019t the Prime Minister state that clearly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264e26ff1ee8f4f0fae4ca704bb380216\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As someone who was intimately involved in transport, that member should know that that class was focused on urban centres, not regional roads. We\u2019re decreasing an area that our regional road users did not benefit from, in order to double the funding that they will benefit from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf48cb14cf104d49ac5e4488b866b8e8\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Why are people in Northland, the Waikato, and mid-Canterbury having to pay 12c a litre more for their petrol, yet are seeing no benefit at all, as their key projects, which would have supported local jobs and growth, are stalled, cancelled, or postponed for ever?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022274733ba7f2942b2b89ede5a895e2dfd\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, we are doubling the investment in regional roading. For people who live in those areas, they will see a benefit. Can I also point out that that last Government increased excise by 17c\u201417c\u2014and they spent it on urban centres and roads that 4 percent of road users use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229394104fb3e044c89ba524f3f16f0242\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking about investment and the soundness of investment for road users\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a374c4c667524b27af651d3547a63264\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Start with a question word!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e23b2cda489747f3b65dbcc2f46e5fe3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That has been my ruling in the past, and, as a result of that, the Opposition have just lost three supplementaries. The Deputy Prime Minister will start his question again, preferably in a question form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022848423be87bc408d95b3e3c41ae8131c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Addressing the issue of financial investment and value for money, is it a fact that of the three toll roads in this country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022817e304bef614e559f221e6feef7c736\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u201CAddressing\u201D is not starting a question with a question word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236c39d33ed6b4679bee3e3fd15c06eaf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants me to be absolute in my tightening up for all members, I\u2019m willing to take that approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0ad107b97604279924c663da7ad4be0\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday, twice, you pulled the Leader of the Opposition up for exactly that. Now, surely, the Deputy Prime Minister, who often touts his vast and significantly more experience than the Leader of the Opposition, should know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7f034803a86457f9b3e2806f7257bec\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, right, I will rule that question out. I\u2019m sure the Deputy Prime Minister will ask it again, in the proper format.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4ebc86572394901add383e0ba3e0322\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Prime Minister advise as to how the latest expenditure compares with recent roading expenditure in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b5bb595bf024376a954c958b4794dcf\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: When it comes to the regions, as I\u2019ve said, it represents a significant increase. When you compare that to Simon Bridges\u2019 legacy as a transport Minister, he reduced funding to the West Coast by $54 million, Taranaki by $74 million, Southland by $56 million to $39 million, Otago by $110 million, Northland by $125 million, Hawke\u2019s Bay by $88 million, Gisborne by $49 million, and the Bay of Plenty by $179 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267933abb69054b6e830a0fdf1f5c318c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: How does a $70 million increase in the regional improvements category nationwide or $5 million each across the New Zealand Transport Agency\u2019s 14 regions in any way compensate for taking away $5 billion from State highway construction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ea0f44d4c0044a3be5ccb4e0be2986c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I will point out again\u2014State highway construction benefited urban centres and took money out of the regions. And, as I\u2019ve said, we are doubling the funding to the regions and local roads. Our focus is on access for regional New Zealanders, as well, unlike the abysmal track record of that member, who cut funding for the regions. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b4021b130d848c693a7ff5cbcd782a1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Come on, we\u2019re not seals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253a84096b29841d28f7c7731eb5876e6\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: How will announcing petrol tax increases on Auckland motorists of 25c a litre, in just her first six months as Prime Minister, help families supporting their kids?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffe805279325475085ca45a23efef740\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Because if they\u2019d elected National, they\u2019d be facing up to 20c, based on the last advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c44c2edde614099b0e6545636abfc0d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: How many hours will someone on the minimum wage in Auckland have to work in order to come out ahead after they\u2019ve filled up the car for the week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226cda92d5e704c38a1fcfc40619a21da\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: A lot less, given we raised the minimum wage to $16.50 on 1 April. We intend to raise it by 2021 to $20, and more than 300,000 families will, on average, get $75 extra a week from this Government, because we are focused on lifting the wages of low- and middle-income earners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229152370d4e1e4862bb809f7fede65e24\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What is she actually doing to help families with their costs of living, given that the Government has already made renting more expensive and made petrol more expensive, and her pre-Christmas Families Package took $1,000 a year in tax cuts away from them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022587f6656b93e4948831203fdbad99105\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: If he\u2019s referring to the fact that we\u2019re getting rid of letting fees, or the fact that we\u2019ve put $5.5 billion into low- and middle-income earners\u2019 pockets starting from July, or that we\u2019re bringing in the winter energy payment for those who are on low fixed incomes, or the fact that we\u2019ve increased the minimum wage, and we did all of that in 100 days\u2014I think people know where our priorities are, and they\u2019re not with the top 10 percent of income earners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ebdeb838b0c46e2a8b57ceb429fd0bb\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: How does a petrol tax increase square with her Government\u2019s promise to New Zealanders to not increase taxes this term?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226199474a7321430697c0d40580f9be5d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Labour\u2019s tax policy stated that alcohol, petrol, and tobacco levies will be adjusted as per normal Government practice, and it\u2019s in writing. What we said on the trail, of course, was\u2014amongst the scaremongering of the National Party, we had to dismiss their claims that we were bringing in new top tax rates, because it was clearly incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7604322966345eeb83b3864ccfd5585\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t this a broken promise on a core election issue\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f621e2287b154a82b5baa4a733f2b576\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bcb76f305d14c5f917933486993f655\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014only months since the election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c863b16d75614c7db0e500d36beb8e29\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I would also point out again that the last Government, when they left office, were considering a 10 to 20 percent increase in road user charges and excise. I\u2019d say that road users are better off with this Government because we\u2019re spending it more wisely and we\u2019re spending less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ba9e42aba5344b28272b3ec16bafbba\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I just want to make it absolutely clear\u2014and it could have been quite a few more\u2014that members on my right must not interject when the Leader of the Opposition or, in fact, any other member is asking a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a69b0d68ac2b4fb0a6f541ea86cdb907\u0022\u003ETransport Infrastructure\u2014Auckland, Funding, Local Roads, Spending on, and State Highways\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u00224db5aa54679a48f6acc21e8df0103098\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224db5aa54679a48f6acc21e8df0103098\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Why is the Government proposing to cut the State highway improvement budget by two-thirds over the next 10 years, from a mid-point of $1.375 billion next year, to just $425 million in 2028?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00223ac727008fb74cb8846aa88cc7789699\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ac727008fb74cb8846aa88cc7789699\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Spending on new State highways will gradually be reallocated to deliver significantly greater investment in regional roads, in local roads, in the maintenance of State highways and local roads, in public transport, in road policing, in safe walking and cycling infrastructure, and in the rail network. Funding for regional and local roads and road maintenance increases by $1.2 billion over the next three years, far outweighing any reduction in State highway improvements. Instead of spending billions of dollars on a few hand-picked stretches of motorway, we are investing to improve transport right across New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a3bcd05e46f45b89f78121706097712\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he proposing to stall new State highway construction that delivers improved safety and new jobs, and boosts regional economic development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2685c038e7c469a8d1c5087ddacd8ac\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: This Government\u2019s not stalling anything, but we are going to spend the $5 billion of transport expenditure every year more wisely, for the good of all New Zealanders. For example, for half the cost of the National Party\u2019s proposed solution for the East-West Link, it would be possible to run a median barrier along every single kilometre of State highway in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be07151e172c4804955c151b8fc2e916\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Is Bernard Hickey wrong when he described yesterday\u2019s announcement as \u201Ca surprise tax hike that will make provincial drivers help pay for new rail tracks in Auckland.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eb2a4879aa249049f8f1b3ab2053cd0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Bernard Hickey\u2019s quite wrong in that regard. It\u2019s not a new tax. As the Prime Minister has pointed out, we\u2019ve been funding the transport system since 1927 using petrol taxes. Our proposal to increase the fuel excise duty (FED) and the road-user charges (RUC) is at the lower end of what the National Government did for nine years\u2014six increases in FED and RUC, and 17c on the litre. That party\u2019s in no position to complain about rising fuel taxes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e55c0efa8714fd4bc684f2476e85b42\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Will he rule out regional fuel taxes outside of Auckland, or will they too be paying 25c a litre more for their petrol soon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022500d1ca7284548b9bb1a31d43156b7b4\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I am willing to rule out regional fuel taxes anywhere outside of Auckland in this term of Government. I will say this: Aucklanders understand why this Government is willing to allow Auckland Council to levy a regional fuel tax in Auckland, because after nine years of neglect, that city is a transport basket case. We\u2019re losing $1.3 billion a year in lost productivity because of congestion, after a decade of drift and neglect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224310babecd9c4d91b3ef50c269918f49\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he expect New Zealanders to pay up to an additional 25c a litre at the petrol pump, yet get fewer new roads?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f282f127b2548cb90a2411a1a2c4fa6\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealanders are being asked to consider and give the Government feedback on between 9c and 12c per litre over the next three years. That\u2019s the proposal that we\u2019re consulting on. People around New Zealand will know that in every other aspect of the transport system, other than the so-called \u201Croads of National Party significance\u201D, they are going to be getting a better deal\u2014local road maintenance, local roads, regional roads, State highway maintenance, public transport, road safety, and rail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239c27ddc4bc74b068d99d15b3f20f936\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Will he commit to funding for the Tauranga Northern Link, which the New Zealand Transport Agency say can, and I quote, \u201Creduce death and serious injuries by 50 percent\u201D or will he continue with his plan to remove $5 billion from regional roading priorities like this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292f0ccd1879a4d5e9891f361af42f2db\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, frankly, I\u2019m surprised that that member is willing to be so critical of the former transport Minister, who for nine years did nothing about the number of people being killed on that road. After nine years, they did nothing while they poured hundreds of millions of dollars into a nearby motorway project that nobody drives on. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f024fd8dff974ca7b074148a56884942\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! Order! I\u2019d just like the temperature to come down a little bit on both sides, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fc7d7dbf9c34c34bc079e92488ad64a\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Perhaps, then, Mr Twyford should, simply, answer the question rather than making his street corner - type political statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b4e13502e27412c96d2145e88331a02\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister recall a massive meeting at the Karekare hall on that very highway, where the member for Tauranga and transport Minister didn\u2019t turn up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db81cdbc35594c9fbf5ae9964bcfe24a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb562ac5885f4578919b43519f30c896\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022155e44a4eaa04321a333fefba9aac394\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I\u2019m going to deal with this first. I think all members know that this Minister of Transport has no responsibility for the former Minister of Transport turning up to meetings or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6bca78e63a0405081ca40ca69c2de26\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that the Cambridge to Piarere State Highway 1 project is one of the seven roads of national significance already under way that will be completed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267de9e42a2e142a69bc68c67b100335a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Transport Agency decides which transport projects proceed, after an independent analysis of their costs and benefits. The purpose of this system is to ensure that decisions like this are free from political interference and pork barrelling. Instead of scaremongering, I urge that member to lobby her council to ensure that that project gets to the top of the list of the regional land transport programme. That would be a good use of her time, instead of scaremongering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229015ea80b337453cbd3c717f0f5e3c29\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Is congestion in Auckland better or worse now than when the roads of national significance programme was initiated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b361ce3b27a344138c049a633c640bb0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: On almost every count, congestion in Auckland is worse. It\u2019s been getting worse year on year for the last five years, and a report done by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research, commissioned last year, shows that the city is losing $1.3 billion every year in lost productivity because of congestion, after nine years of drift and neglect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241be93efbd054c1c9e40e5577586a6f9\u0022\u003EAndrew Falloon\u003C/span\u003E: Will extending State Highway 1 between Ashburton and Christchurch to four lanes proceed under the funding parameters contained in the draft Government policy statement (GPS) released yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022303742e73d9a4e9a936e525db939ff77\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: My recommendation to that member is that he lobbies his regional council to ensure that that project gets to the top of the list of project rankings, because under this Government we don\u2019t engage in the kind of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef8e7b5777334fcea9376614f32d48ab\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed6151033304be5a0baaede6e6fc10e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member Phil Twyford should know that I shouldn\u2019t have to get to my feet to sit him down when there is a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ed8186a2754d298d83ab5f5748206c\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re operating under a heavy penalty that you put on us today for various behaviours that you consider to be unacceptable, but that question was not even slightly answered. We\u2019ve sat quietly listening to the Minister taking pretty hard shots at the previous Government, none of which can be sustained, quite frankly, but we can\u2019t get the chance to debate that, and here he has a simple, straightforward question. It\u2019s his policy statement that was released yesterday as Minister, on behalf of the Government, and he\u2019s saying that the member should go and lobby his local roading authority. It\u2019s completely\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a7379d67c06491b9cc64a647ed6d61c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014[Interruption] Order! The member will resume his seat. No, I\u2019m not interested in hearing from the member. I am never going to be responsible for the quality of the answers or the content of the answers, as long as the member is addressing the question, and I rule that he was\u2014maybe overenthusiastically, and maybe a bit indirectly, but he was certainly addressing the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265b4e126b5ed400589aee1723379979d\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was: is the Christchurch to Ashburton four-laning going ahead inside the parameters of the GPS announced yesterday? The Minister said his advice to the member would be to go and lobby his local roading committee. That\u2019s not an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273a5ea92ed3b47c49eb18298e3ce9fe5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Again, we\u2019re going to get into a debate on the quality of an answer, but if the Minister\u2019s saying that whether or not it\u2019s in the parameters depends on the priority it\u2019s given by the local regional council, well, that is an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243ddebcb5e8942eb8caf82e3cbdb2868\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Is the $1.3 billion in lost productivity that the Minister refers to better or worse today than when the roads of national significance programme was initiated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d69e6e40aa8439eb37411ddd03486d2\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The level of productivity loss in Auckland because of congestion now is far worse than it was nine years ago. Just the other week, I met a trucking contractor in K\u016Bmeu, in the Helensville electorate. He told me that he can only do two deliveries of concrete across Auckland per day\u2014five years ago he was able to do four deliveries across the city\u2014because the congestion is far worse. The cost of delivering concrete is twice as expensive now for that contractor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b94d3a33da8b48e19356b5541068a2cd\u0022\u003ERegional Economic Development\u2014Business Investment and Investment in Regional Roading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb5dfd12f0dc4fd6ac121282fed36f5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb5dfd12f0dc4fd6ac121282fed36f5c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Regional Economic Development: Does he think there will be a greater or lesser level of investment in New Zealand\u2019s regions in the next few years when he takes into account investment by the Provincial Growth Fund, other Government investments such as road transport funding, and private sector investment, both domestic and foreign?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022880ebc86af914a3cb201f8a1e30d19f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022880ebc86af914a3cb201f8a1e30d19f2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Regional Economic Development: There will be a much greater level of investment in the regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cfc3d48ee104945a1225c9447339075\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he think an increase to the regional roading improvements funding class of around $35 million a year more than National proposed makes up for a $5 billion withdrawal of investment from the State highway network, the lifeblood of the regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f438c8c3e3c4e97af3193d4d6ecce2b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The member just admitted that it was double what they were giving it, for a start, and then, if you look at the level of added investment arising from the regional fund and put in by private business, it\u2019ll be much better than it is right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221178ca57becd4c1cbc345174d409f870\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think provincial drivers paying higher petrol taxes, in part to fund trams in Auckland, will regard him as the region\u2019s champion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0715b7ce1e94c25b47d850c5ac01e1a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! No responsibility. Further question? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbf2b87c3ed64dc9a55b2e1cdded4029\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it true that when it comes to defending the regions from big business\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d289d9a29704014b6f35bcca9d80488\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! No, sorry. I am going to interrupt. I\u2019m sure that the Hon Gerry Brownlee is not really inviting me to take the ultimate sanction with him, but his repeated interjections have caused his party now the loss of four supplementary questions. My suggestion is that he listen to his colleague\u2019s question, and, being an experienced member who\u2019s had experience in Opposition before\u2014and I say, from being on the receiving end, has done it very well\u2014gives some advice to his colleagues about how to ask questions that are in order. A starting point is that the question has to address something for which the Minister has parliamentary responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225572ecf48b2d443abdd0a0cd0d4cccbb\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would simply point out that the Hon Shane Jones has repeatedly stood up in question time and day after day described himself as the provincial champion. To simply ask him: \u201CDoes he think that still stands?\u201D seems perfectly in line with all the questioning that has been allowed in the House so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221172cee8dd5a4d29bad2c2243c7d6bbe\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. There\u2019s a difference between a question and an answer, and the member is aware of that. Is there a further supplementary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220f187c0914a4d63b8ade483f9fd8a42\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think the issue we have is\u2014a very serious point of order\u2014that you are taking a finely tuned, very minute approach to questions, and you\u2019re effectively saying in relation to the answers that you don\u2019t have responsibility for them. That makes it incredibly difficult and, frankly, unequal for the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd0ff8ef2a78487e8d1e88609d2f58ea\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I suggest the member go back and listen to the tape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022968c1a0d0aa1468f959503e9306d1879\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it true that when it comes to defending the regions from big business, he is a tiger, but when it comes to defending the regions from his own Government, he\u2019s a pussycat?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea5b676f9a10442e9f6103dabdf43d5e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019m assuming that we\u2019re going to have a repeat of the right honourable gentleman asking leave to answer an out-of-order question. If it is\u2014[Interruption]. No, no; I\u2019m ruling it out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9964cb252bf4724a7202a2892c62e16\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I seek the House\u2019s indulgence and leave to answer that question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c51a2f3f02c43399ff3bf5977a65434\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been requested to answer an out-of-order question. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255090e87af7a4558b53638889316fd24\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, thank you very much. Can I just say, here are the facts: in the next three years while State highway funding reduces by $500 million or 11 percent, funding for regional or local roads improvements and maintenance increases by $1.2 billion or 26 percent, far outweighing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3d9dfcd41184f608a78937dcc57e970\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m of course listening very carefully to the answer being given on Mr Jones\u2019 behalf by the Deputy Prime Minister, but it might help him if the question\u2014although it be out of order\u2014was asked again, because that answer bears no resemblance to anything that could be considered addressing the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274f8c0c8c47c4b3e9f76e7a011c8a2f9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the question\u2019s not going to be asked again. We\u2019re not going to compound it. But one of the things that\u2014[Interruption] No\u2014can the member let me finish? One of the things that members have to learn is that when things are so badly out of order, there will be quite liberal interpretations of the answer and a bit of time given to the member to actually get to an answer. But I suggest that he could get to it pretty soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf259fc0ee14490fb07f749106c41f3f\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would just ask you, Mr Speaker\u2014we\u2019ve had \u201Ctiger\u201D, \u201Cpussycat\u201D, and I think the word you ruled out for me was \u201Cgutting\u201D. I think these are words commonly used\u2014there is commonly colour in questions; there has been for decades in Parliament. I just do want to understand, so we do get it right, what this position that you\u2019re staking out today is so we can understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc8d34458618468e96e3eb2c6445ba21\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to make it very clear to the member that all of those expressions are quite acceptable in debate and have been in the Parliament for a long time\u2014[Interruption] Order! I will stand up, just to make absolutely clear the seriousness with which I\u2019m taking this. Debate is different from questions. During debate, there are lots of words and lots of approaches, and irony is allowed. During questions, they are not. The tightest part of the parliamentary rule book about what members are allowed to say is in questions. Probably the next is in answers, and then debate is quite a lot broader. That\u2019s always been the case. Therefore, I do ask, especially front-bench members on both sides, and I will say that the Deputy Prime Minister, as well as Mr Goldsmith, have been developing\u2014in the Deputy Prime Minister\u2019s case, over 30 years\u2014a habit of being out of order in their questions, and I am beginning to believe that they know they do. If they are, that is very disorderly and will have serious consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddb733be9ab34dea8939ef7479b3b57b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a790535ce4e42d38bcde291d222348b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right\u2014finishing the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022164c66b1dfcc4a3791a34944e9de3841\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: For the benefit of the National Party David Attenborough: a tiger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002207366692fe634488b5c68767b31df1b3\u0022\u003ETransport Infrastructure\u2014Draft Policy Statement on Land Transport and Fuel Excise Duty\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00226d211795b13d42feab6a59918a331cc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d211795b13d42feab6a59918a331cc5\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Why does the Government\u2019s draft policy statement on land transport contain increases in investment in safety and local and regional roads?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00221a236c2cf5b345f58af8a157d2e72400\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a236c2cf5b345f58af8a157d2e72400\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E So far this year, more than 100 people have died on our roads. The new draft Government policy statement rebalances spending away from massive expenditure on a few low-value, hand-picked expressways, and towards reducing the increasing number of deaths and serious injuries on our roads. Regional and local roads are in desperate need of increased spending, after years of neglect and vast amounts of money being spent on expressways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc4dccafe8404acbb31c4cb356b205e5\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Will fuel excise duty be increased?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a90d4945da34a52867886e77dc3d732\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Rebalancing the Government policy statement on land transport towards safety and value for money means we will no longer need the 20c-a-litre fuel excise duty increase considered by the previous Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229af881f9cb8f4d5e930cef9b3ea4b153\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: And rejected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235b58ed80e9240c9b9e3571e7728f924\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014considered and left open under active consideration\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201f8ccb26c9b4389a4097eff803bb022\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The member will resume his seat. It\u2019s a very simple question, and the member will address it directly. I mean, I can\u2019t insist on yes or no, but that was a yes or no question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e782b98eb4e240cc95f7dc775527e2ec\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Fuel excise duty will be increased, because spending more money on making our roads safer and investing in local and regional roads where most people drive and where most people die on the roads is a sensible and prudent approach to saving lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8c42e4ec8fc43bcbdd6db8b59cbdc4c\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: What reaction has there been to the draft policy statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a76126ba7d45489bb8e1aa8771b6b5b2\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: One highly respected business editor today praised the Government\u2019s transformative land transport package and its long-overdue focus on safety. She said that through the package, the Government is in the driver\u2019s seat when it comes to delivering on its election promises. Another commentator said, and I quote, \u201COne big change is that the Land Transport Fund will now cover spending across all land transport modes [meaning] the new \u2026 strategy [can] fully integrate planning for roads and rail, public transport \u2026 existing bus and rail services and the proposed new [urban] rapid transit network.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e96fe86286494e5bbbca4e358adc2e66\u0022\u003EBroadcasting, Communications and Digital Media, Minister\u2014Contact with the Chair of Radio New Zealand and Meeting with Carol Hirschfeld\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00221287b5b97a3d45bc980de302f9def900\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221287b5b97a3d45bc980de302f9def900\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e44dd1b5e7e04c58b6384180100adf4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e44dd1b5e7e04c58b6384180100adf4f\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context they were made and taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c25030a722534513a5f41b90a067fdd7\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: When she was first made aware, on 1 March, of Radio New Zealand (RNZ) inadvertently misleading the parliamentary select committee, why didn\u2019t she notify the clerk or the chair of the select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bd12cf14ee04d06a88bd36a92930071\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: My office rang Radio New Zealand to advise of the discrepancy. I stand by the fact that that was the appropriate action at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022662a9b4435e644bc851a5ce7a4ad052c\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: If she was so concerned about ensuring the select committee record was corrected regarding her meeting with Carol Hirschfeld, why did she wait more than three weeks to tell the RNZ chairman, Richard Griffin, to correct the record?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad8feeb8e92a49afb56ddc1fd1d227ae\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: My office rang Radio New Zealand twice during that time; so there wasn\u2019t a gap of three weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c83aed8435426eaf36e3149b023c69\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: At the Astoria meeting in December, was she offered any documents or did she receive any documents from Carol Hirschfeld?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a455cf71bfc419988c16e2fc4c3a01d\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002251409ed9e44f49c4b9d8bdbfa4b347ab\u0022\u003EHealth Services\u2014Conflicts of Interest and National Oracle Solution\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u002275a19f6f50f04a488a498a485ba891f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275a19f6f50f04a488a498a485ba891f1\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What steps has he taken to ensure Deloitte, as independent reviewer of the $90 million National Oracle Solution Programme, is independent of the companies under review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022222c07d14f3847fc8449ba20d5035954\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022222c07d14f3847fc8449ba20d5035954\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E As I indicated to the member yesterday, I am advised that the potential, possible, and actual conflicts of interest were considered as part of the consultancy services order. Previous work done by Deloitte on the National Oracle Solution programme was listed in the conflict of interest declaration within the consultancy services order. This includes services provided by Deloitte subsidiary Asparona. I\u2019ve been assured that no individual who had anything to do with Asparona\u2019s involvement in the National Oracle Solution project has any involvement in the Deloitte review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4b922a281434a41a51a4f6b73053c59\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Will he release Deloitte\u2019s conflict of interest declaration referred to in oral question No. 9 yesterday; and if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207ffca4d627740cfa8e603a1eab1f691\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll take advice on whether that\u2019s the normal course of action. The ministry advises me that, at all points through the process, the ministry and Deloitte fully complied with the guidelines of the all-of-Government procurement processes and conflict management procedures, which are the same processes used by the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b84456ee343b4fcdac28d7f7cfbea044\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: When he said in oral question No. 9 yesterday, \u201CThe conflicts of interest, perceived or actual, were declared before the review was commenced.\u201D, does he believe a conflict of interest disappears because it has been declared?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dc1aa3c94534654bee6e7071dbef99a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No. The important thing with any conflict of interest is that it\u2019s managed appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022187ea9eb92c84641b69fad9c39ee62fe\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: When he said in oral question No. 9 yesterday, \u201CYes\u201D to the question of whether Deloitte or Deloitte-related entities had received funding for the $90 million programme, will he then release how much Deloitte have received over the life of the programme; and if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cac4822dbe4d418c8874fbf18bca9ee8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I would expect that that would be part of the normal annual review process. That\u2019s where the Opposition gets to scrutinise the spending of the Government. This followed a normal process in terms of using the all-of-Government panel that that previous Government used. This one is no different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002243250fab73034524899747bf44ce398c\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Tomorrow\u2019s Schools Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022942220852d3644d6bbef63f744f025cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022942220852d3644d6bbef63f744f025cb\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What progress has been made in setting up a review of the Tomorrow\u2019s Schools model?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022363528a6774a4419a31efd78595090d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022363528a6774a4419a31efd78595090d0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The terms of reference have been released, and this morning I announced the membership of the Tomorrow\u2019s Schools review independent task force that will be charged with leading the biggest review of the way our schools are governed, managed, and administered in 30 years. The task force will be chaired by Bali Haque and will include Dr Cathy Wylie, Mere Berryman, Professor John O\u2019Neill, and Barbara Ala\u2019alatoa, a very distinguished group of people who have a wide variety of views on how our schools should be administered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234945ac30ee7436089f85d2a07469d59\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: How will he ensure that the expertise of the teaching profession and others within the school sector is incorporated into the review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022681d929afc7847e3b39721d717f44d7f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve already discovered, as Minister of Education, that when it comes to schooling, almost everybody in the country has a view on how it should be done, and it\u2019s important that everybody with that view has the opportunity to contribute to this review process. So I\u2019ve set up, in addition to the task force, a cross-sector advisory group that will sit alongside the task force to ensure that all of those groups who represent and advocate for different people and different players in the education field have the opportunity to participate. That group will include, for example, school trustees, unions, principals, teachers, and many, many others with a view on education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ed5418de66a4df4829caf6141efd57c\u0022\u003EElectoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill\u2014Effect\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00223f18a3dbb6e14e99b66b1dfc5177362a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f18a3dbb6e14e99b66b1dfc5177362a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Does he stand by his statement that his Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill does not allow party members to remove members of Parliament, when section 55A states that the seat of a member of Parliament becomes vacant when the party leader delivers the appropriate written notice to the Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229db7850df8ca4615a3dc028b8ab589dd\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I may have misheard the asking of the question, but the question as lodged referred to the bill not allowing \u201Cparty leaders\u201D, as opposed to \u201Cparty members\u201D, but the member will have to clarify whether or not he did ask the correct question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d130aedd47e4fd1b34468222440fcfc\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy to repeat the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002292df99a9fc274d7b9c7d003c99029a87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292df99a9fc274d7b9c7d003c99029a87\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does he stand by his statement that his Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill does not allow party leaders to remove members of Parliament, when section 55A states that the seat of a member of Parliament becomes vacant when the party leader delivers the appropriate written notice to the Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022427e75ff27fc473aa7ce7058a56353a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022427e75ff27fc473aa7ce7058a56353a2\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The member overlooks the fact that the leader\u2019s notice under section 55A must also comply with section 55C, which states that it must be accompanied by a statement that in turn complies with section 55D. Section 55D requires the statement outline that certain conditions have been met when the notice is delivered to the Speaker, and, most importantly, that two-thirds of the parliamentary members of that party agree with the notice being served. Furthermore, section 55D requires that any requirements of the rules of the particular political party must also have been complied with, and so it is not the decision of the leader alone, as the member suggests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022959f179d49fa47b89cfbe3f98cb5f17a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister claim that a two-thirds caucus vote is a substantive check on a leader\u2019s power to dismiss an MP, when, in practice, any such caucus votes effectively amount to a confidence vote in the leader, and in any of the practical cases in recent history, whether it be Jim Anderton, Marilyn Waring, Derek Quigley, Tariana Turia, the leaders would easily have secured those numbers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236c2978b8d67441f987f5cd08e640eb2\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can\u2019t account for the conduct that happens inside the National Party caucus except to say that it is not always the leader\u2019s recommendation about what happens to a recalcitrant member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288681f992ef0419f9c389d8667e30c48\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is his bill consistent and compatible with the Parliamentary Privilege Act 2014?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f6b016b044540de90e64236e8fc3b40\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the bill has been vetted for the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and, as I understand it, is fully compliant with the Parliamentary Privilege Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292f5e284cc1840cab195808773272172\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was whether it was consistent with the Parliamentary Privilege Act\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022466bd798172641518c174afd2f17e253\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member listened to the end of the answer, he would have heard the answer. Is there a further supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db32ae45271f4d4d9857d83b50a82189\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister name one independent constitutional law expert who agrees with the Government\u2019s position that the bill complies with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, when 21 experts from five universities, including eight professors, say it breaches the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e467d28db3b4b129228c16e276a68dd\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a number of submissions about the bill and I am stunned at the number of times professors, legal experts, constitutional experts have actually got their analysis about the bill wrong, because like that member\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214c6ad44b5e3494dadf09ea55a0c8aa4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c38aaaf53e3248239b8e0705aba7fe06\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they continue to refer to a bill that allows the leader to give a notice to the Speaker, effectively dismissing a member, and that is not what the bill provides for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002247d8caacd64d42c8a1effb955982f0e1\u0022\u003EWh\u0101nau Ora\u2014Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4782a89a6b04acca0970077fef91cbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4782a89a6b04acca0970077fef91cbd\u0022\u003EJO HAYES (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora: Does he agree with his reported comments to M\u0101ori Television on 31 October last year that he expected the review process of Wh\u0101nau Ora to begin within the first 100 days of Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00227dc8cf9aab7b49d28a0d142a3166445b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dc8cf9aab7b49d28a0d142a3166445b\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f996a7266d7b4066bf8132ace500d4ac\u0022\u003EJo Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: When will he announce the terms of reference and the reviewers for his proposed review\u2014more than 150 days after he first became the Wh\u0101nau Ora Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4635c9cc6124f538e0eafde27df4d8c\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: For the benefit of the member, she and the House can expect an announcement imminently. It has gone through a thorough and robust process to make sure that the administration of the review is proper before the review starts proper, and they can expect an announcement very soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eae9659b46a14d00adc99638b68d9f61\u0022\u003EJo Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: How much longer will Wh\u0101nau Ora service providers commissioning agencies have to wait for security around their futures in the Wh\u0101nau Ora space?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aa203fa0113423cb1fd02c8468562e1\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Their security has never been in question. We\u2019re talking about the review here, and the review will take place very shortly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278c6b1c51f8f4b3b98693e1cf82edbff\u0022\u003EJo Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Will he commit to continuing to fund Wh\u0101nau Ora at its current level? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bd4dd2de4744381a45292d5b955a004\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing\u2019s happening with the funding for Wh\u0101nau Ora. In fact, the review, I hope, will actually increase it, but let\u2019s have the review first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d185893e6a3a40779d5ca4532f6623d9\u0022\u003EProduct Recall\u2014Takata Alpha-type Air Bags\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022d256fa8aa23b4b7fb420b88073c61c2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d256fa8aa23b4b7fb420b88073c61c2d\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: What is he doing to ensure the safety of New Zealand consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u00221d0ce04529c544a78af9ebbd0a00480b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d0ce04529c544a78af9ebbd0a00480b\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Today, I announced the compulsory recall of more than 50,000 vehicles installed with Takata Alpha-type air bags, in order to protect New Zealand drivers and passengers from these unsafe air bags. A voluntary recall has been in place since 2013, but I am not satisfied with the progress to date. Alpha-type air bags pose a significant risk of misfiring in an accident and sending shrapnel fragments towards vehicle occupants. Although no deaths have occurred in New Zealand, there have been 23 deaths globally as a consequence of these faulty air bags. The Government will not take this risk by continuing the approach of the previous Government, which was to do nothing. The safety of our passengers and drivers is paramount, and New Zealanders can be assured that this Government is committed to ensuring that these unsafe air bags are removed and replaced as quickly as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaa10fe1ce19425a9f5587f8a1955c08\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: How will the compulsory recall provide certainty for the motor vehicle industry and consumers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c41dcf7c76445bfa1b552a6b1adb5f6\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: The compulsory recall has been welcomed by the motor vehicle industry. I would like to acknowledge the efforts of new vehicle sellers to replace the faulty air bags while the recall was voluntary, as replacement of air bags was undertaken at their cost. Making the recall compulsory will provide guidance to suppliers of both new and used vehicles, so that replacement air bags can be sourced and installed as quickly as possible. Consumers can rest assured that if their vehicle is affected, they can seek replacement air bags at no cost to them. I encourage vehicle owners to find out more information and to check the status of their air bags at the website www.recalls.govt.nz. In order to ensure progress is made in a timely manner under this recall, I have set up a monitoring group to provide monthly reporting on the progress of the recall. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a993b91e08f04ab69616a26e15bb5938\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister taking action now, given reports of issues with faulty air bags date back to 2013? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022696b851d32a543669c033e0aa2a795e6\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: Upon first\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c09afbee5b6f4f4c9a2dfb211b0d06fc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, very carefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022122c7a6850e745039e3c54f032981a75\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Upon first learning of the seriousness of the issue, the Associate Minister of Transport Julie Anne Genter and I commissioned an urgent report into the matter. Following a compulsory recall in Australia and after advice and discussions with agencies and the sector, the compulsory recall was decided as the most appropriate action. This Government inherited a situation where 50,000 vehicles being used every day by New Zealanders were exposed to a significant safety risk. This Government will not allow this issue to go unaddressed and risk the safety of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220494e73abb5546e28d9096c2849fed1b\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022082de92d47f64e47a04419e2f25895db\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00227a752f8ca4534d5d9ac37f99735786fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a752f8ca4534d5d9ac37f99735786fa\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve found one\u2014I have found one person that supports the transport announcements that were made by the Government yesterday. [Interruption] No, I\u2019ve found one. I have found one that\u2019s celebrating it, that\u2019s leaping up and is thinking it\u2019s fantastic, and her name is Clare Curran. She is loving it. She is loving it\u2014anything possible to take the headlines away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EIt has been a really busy week for the Government for the last couple of weeks\u2014there\u2019s absolutely no two ways about it\u2014and one of them must have been last week, when they realised that, actually, what was going to happen was that we were going to have the chief executive and board members turning up to select committee tomorrow to correct it and possibly say all sorts of things about what\u2019s been going on for the last two or three weeks. Imagine how busy they\u2019ve been, trying to find somewhere for Clare Curran to be. Well, they did it. They found somewhere. They have found some tenuous kind of link between TVNZ being at the Commonwealth Games and, now, the Minister needing to be\u2014so, kind of anything possible to get her out of the country so that they can possibly make sure that they can make their point well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThat would all be kind of amusing if it actually wasn\u2019t so damned serious, and it is serious, because what we have is someone interfering with a State-owned broadcaster that actually prides themselves on their independence. What we have is someone that, at very best, did not give a full answer and has had to come back and correct it multiple times. What we now have, every time questions are asked by the member Melissa Lee and others, is that more and more comes out, but it\u2019s not even forthcoming from the so-called Minister of open Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ESo what we have now is someone who is saying, \u201CI was so concerned that the record be corrected as soon as possible in select committee that I waited three weeks to make a phone call myself\u2014that, before then, I had felt it would be enough for someone in my office to make some phone call to someone in Radio New Zealand\u2019s office.\u201D But now, all of a sudden, here we were on 29 March, when Clare Curran thought it was so important that the record get fixed immediately and corrected immediately\u2014this is what she would have us believe\u2014that she made the phone call herself and left a voice message.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EI have a simple message to the Prime Minister: if that message is not as the Minister has actually told us and her that it is, will she still be in her job, yeah? Clare Curran\u2019s certainly spun this to everybody, including the Prime Minister, that it was a genuine question and a genuine request to the chief executive\u2014that they simply write a letter to get the record corrected. But if in any way this is interfering with the independence of Parliament and how it actually runs and its members deserving to have the right information from people in front of them\u2014if it\u2019s interfering with that at all, as well as the interference to an independent State broadcaster, then I do see that as being very, very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EAnd I think it\u2019s disgraceful that we are having to squeeze every bit of information about this out of the Minister torturously and not with her being upfront and able to give the right information at the right time to the public of New Zealand, that, quite frankly, deserve better. It simply beggars belief that a senior, serious, and well-respected broadcaster felt that they had to mislead their bosses about the meeting and how it occurred and what had happened at it, and now we have a Minister that hides the facts, gets the facts actually drawn out of her slowly and painfully, and I think there is still more to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ESo I ask the Prime Minister to stand up in leadership and show the standards that she told New Zealand that she would hold her and her Government to\u2014to stand up and make that true and to make that real for the people of New Zealand so that they can have, actually, faith in the integrity of what is happening in this place for all members of Parliament. And it\u2019s time that that happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3127953db1740a3a32f45f10ee6188e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3127953db1740a3a32f45f10ee6188e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The member that just took her seat, Paula Bennett, told us that it beggars belief. Well, I\u2019ll tell this House what beggars belief, and that\u2019s waking up to news about the fact that a hospital in our largest city is covered in black mould and has sewage in the walls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt sometimes feels, when one sees the reports of this, like we\u2019re stuck in some kind of Dickensian kind of vortex where we\u2019ve been suffering so much neglect by the ruling elite of the previous Government that they\u2019ve allowed our hospitals to get covered in mould and have problems with sewage coming down the walls. You can look through there, and it\u2019s like a combination of Bleak House and Oliver Twist, I think\u2014the state that the previous Government have left this country in\u2014when we\u2019re now at a point where we\u2019re looking at needing $14 billion of upgrades and repairs over 10 years because the previous Government let things run into such a state of disrepair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAnd why was this? It was to have their treasured surpluses. Well, anybody can have a surplus when you don\u2019t pay the bills, and that is exactly what the previous Government chose to do. There is nearly a decade of neglect and dereliction of the part of the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe had district health boards who were forced to run surpluses by deferring maintenance, and when the deferral of maintenance means that there are people in our country with respiratory disease being housed in a hospital with black mould, where we have sick people in places, trying to get well, where there is sewage down the walls\u2014this is not a record that anybody on the other side of the House can hold their head up about, because they have absolutely let New Zealand down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut this Government has a plan to fix it, and it\u2019s not only in health that we are going to have to fix things. We can look right across the neglect that we\u2019ve seen in our transport system, and we\u2019ve seen that with questioning in the House today\u2014the fact that this Opposition just doesn\u2019t realise the neglect that they had put in, the fact that our regional roads have been neglected by that Government\u2019s failure to invest in them, that we have maintenance issues, that we have councils right around the country that are telling us that they do need that money to go into fixing their roads. This is an Opposition that can only focus on the highways of national significance, because that is exactly the way they governed\u2014it was by a myopic focus on a few small things and refusal to see what was absolutely around there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn a week where there has been so much happening\u2014there are so many issues facing our country\u2014the deputy leader of the National Party leads off with a beltway issue. Is she addressing their neglect in health? Is she addressing the neglect in education, where that Government failed to account for what was coming in the future? Was she addressing the neglect in the housing crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo yesterday in the House, the Opposition thought there was some gotcha politics when they asked the Minister of Housing and Urban Development what the square footage of the apartments in the Unitec build were going to be\u2014the plan this Government has to actually provide affordable housing for New Zealand. Well, I can tell you, the square footage of every one of those apartments will be greater than the square footage of a car, which is what the previous Government seemed to think was adequate housing for far too many New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut this Government has a plan. We are not content to book out motels and think that that is a solution to homelessness. We are a Government that actually wants to build some housing for New Zealanders and, what\u2019s more, to make it affordable and, heaven forbid, warm and dry. [Interruption] That\u2019s right. We don\u2019t want mould running down the walls of our houses any more than we want mould in our hospitals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that has the courage to think beyond the three-year term, that has the courage to think about what New Zealand needs, what our future needs\u2014and it certainly isn\u2019t the levels of neglect that we saw from nine years of a National Government. We are a Government that will invest in our people, that will invest in our future, and that will ensure that we have health, housing, and education for our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c645e5fcfd7e49558fc6d3e779c3b7e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c645e5fcfd7e49558fc6d3e779c3b7e7\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E That was a Labour MP from one of the regions that is so ashamed of what they came up with yesterday in their Government policy statement (GPS) on transport that she didn\u2019t even mention their big flagship policy of the week. The reason why she and other Labour MPs from the regions are ashamed of what\u2019s been put forward is because Labour is gutting regional transport funding by $5 billion. That\u2019s $5 billion that is going in to fund about $5 billion of rail in Auckland and in other areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re seeing from Labour the way in which they have such disregard for regional New Zealand. We\u2019re seeing from Labour and the New Zealand First Party how they talk tough, how they talk big in the regions, but actually when it comes to delivery, they\u2019ve been found wanting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EWe also learnt something new from the Prime Minister yesterday\u2014actually, we learnt it this morning. We learnt from the Prime Minister this morning that, apparently, ramping up fuel prices, ramping up fuel taxes, is not a new tax because, all of a sudden, it\u2019s an existing tax and therefore it\u2019s OK to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003ESo I look forward to when the Minister of Finance stands up on Budget day in the future and ramps up income tax, and then claims it\u2019s not a new tax because income tax is existing. That simply doesn\u2019t wash with New Zealanders. New Zealanders around the regions are going to be paying large amounts more in fuel prices at the petrol pump because Labour is taxing regional New Zealanders more, to pay for Auckland\u2019s trams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EOther speakers on this side of the House are going to be talking more about their regional projects, I\u2019m sure. But I say to the people in Tauranga\u2014and Todd Muller was asking questions about their road\u2014that the good people of Tauranga are going to be paying more at the petrol pump, not seeing State Highway 2 upgraded, but the funding for trams in Auckland will increase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThey don\u2019t like it when we talk about trams in Auckland and funding being lost from the State highway budget. The reality is, if we put together the 10 years of funding for State highways just using the baseline that we had\u2014not increasing it at all; using the baseline that the National Government was proposing, over 10 years\u2014and then see how much the Labour Government is putting into State highways, the gap in the big funding difference is $5 billion. They can\u2019t deny it; it\u2019s right there in the figures. If we look at the funding that\u2019s there for mass transit and transitional rail and public transport, would somebody like to guess how much that is? It is $5 billion. Labour and New Zealand First are gutting the regions by $5 billion and putting it into trams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EI actually want to congratulate Julie Anne Genter. I want to congratulate her because she has been the winner, under that Government policy statement. She\u2019s actually done very well. Shane Jones has been completely rolled over. The New Zealand First Party, the champions for the regions\u2014they don\u2019t care about the regions any more. In fact, Shane Jones completely lost this argument. So much for Winston Peters being the big champion for Northland. Northland won\u2019t be seeing any improvements. The Waikato Expressway and the improvements around Waikato won\u2019t be going ahead. We won\u2019t be seeing the improvements to the Tauranga Northern Link that were planned. By the way, these are improvements that the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) say would have led to a 50 percent reduction in the road toll\u2014a 50 percent reduction in deaths and serious injuries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThe Labour Government does not care about the regions, in the way they like to talk. They can\u2019t come up with the sophistry that Phil Twyford has, where he says that these aren\u2019t political decisions. We know that the signals that he has sent have led to NZTA already, before the GPS was even issued, making radical changes to the project. We know that there were contractors all geared up, all ready, about to be shortlisted, about to see tenders issued for the Tauranga Northern Link\u2014a road that will save lives\u2014and all of a sudden the tender process was cut. We know there are people that were expecting to see Public Works Act acquisitions in relation to the Waikato projects, and all of a sudden being told this won\u2019t be happening any more. He likes to claim big political credit for the East-West Link being cancelled, but when it comes to fronting up to New Zealanders about other roading projects, he likes to hide behind the New Zealand Transport Agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EWell, I say to Phil Twyford that it\u2019s time for him to front up to New Zealanders. It\u2019s time for the Minister of Transport to be more honest and upfront with New Zealanders about what he\u2019s doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230b1823ed3384777a474e36cab194e06\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4aef267c05a4ec7bfc0a36f2e605ef3\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS\u003C/span\u003E: I say that the Minister of Transport should be apologising to regional New Zealanders for gutting the State highway projects. They are taking money out of the regions, taxing people more for it, all to pay for Auckland trams. They should be ashamed of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002231cd0be9d95f4d118c352ddb459cfb8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231cd0be9d95f4d118c352ddb459cfb8f\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E One thing that the present Minister of Transport cannot be responsible for is the appalling maths of that member who\u2019s just taken his seat. What he completely overlooks is that under the previous Government, New Zealanders would be paying more for their petrol because of the 20c excise duty they had put on petrol over future years. New Zealanders will be paying less. The great thing is that New Zealanders living in the regions will have better-quality roads to drive on, safer roads to drive on, which is something that the previous Government could not give a damn about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThat party, when they were in Government, was the \u201Ccoulda, woulda, shoulda\u201D party. Well, they\u2019re certainly that now. It is just incredible how little they got done and how much they try to take credit for now. Where do you begin? Take the Privacy Act. In 2012, they said they were going to rewrite the Privacy Act. We were going to have new privacy laws. And they did nothing. So it has taken this Government to introduce a new rewritten privacy law that\u2019s fit for the 21st century and takes us ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhat about the year-and-a-day rule? Remember, they said, \u201CRight, we\u2019re going to get right on to it\u2014right on to fixing that small element of the Crimes Act that is standing in the way of important prosecutions that should be taken.\u201D What did they do? Absolutely nothing. So it\u2019s taken this Government to actually introduce it. It didn\u2019t stop the members opposite claiming it was all their work; it was their idea. But they couldn\u2019t do what mattered most and that is to make the change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAnd then there\u2019s the law of contempt. Chris Finlayson\u2014a member opposite who commands enormous respect on this side of the House\u2014admitted that he has spent 10 years trying to convince his colleagues that this area of the law should change. And he may not be wrong. The Law Commission wrote a report on it. He struggled for 10 years but could not persuade his colleagues. He had to fall on the small matter of the lottery of the member\u2019s bill process to get his law up, and he\u2019s done it. The good thing is that it wasn\u2019t just his luck in the member\u2019s bill ballot; it is his luck to work with a Minister of Justice now who\u2019s prepared to work with him to make sure this law might work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAnd then, of course, there are the changes to the sale of liquor laws. Chris Bishop sits over here\u2014it\u2019s always a telling thing when members opposite are in so much despair, nothing\u2019s going right for them. So what do they revert to? Talking about selling grog more easily. It\u2019s kind of the political equivalent to self-medication\u2014talk about the liquor laws. Chris Bishop\u2019s done that now, but, of course, Chris Bishop has realised he\u2019s also working with a Minister of Justice who\u2019s prepared to be constructive and sensible and to help him make a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut all of this pales into insignificance when it comes to what the last Government did, or failed to do, in the criminal justice sector. The truth is that we are standing on the burning deck of the criminal justice sector right now\u2014that is how bad things are. Members opposite were happy to pass law after law after law that extended sentences, that imprisoned more people, and that banged more people up. I think the stunning thing about conservative parties is just how they love this thing about locking people up and punishing them. I think it\u2019s a fetish\u2014I think it\u2019s a fetish. There is no act of human conduct that conservative parties will not think that a good spanking will cure, and so the members opposite, when they are in Government, they like nothing more than to punish people\u2014lock them up\u2014because it makes them feel good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut, actually, the truth is it is not a way to deal with those who carry out criminal acts, and we have to do something better. The truth is our criminal justice system is verging on being broken, and it is time to fix it, and it will be this Government that will fix it. We have a justice system now that is less and less just, doing more and more harm and more and more damage, and, worse, is not protecting innocent members of the community. Our serious offending rate is going up. They don\u2019t seem to have noticed that\u2014lock more people up, criminalise more people, but not fix the fundamental problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo it is time to step up and fix the problem\u2014time to step up and fix the issues that we are now facing. The priority is to keep innocent citizens safe. It is also to reduce offending. Simply leaving people for ever longer periods in prison doesn\u2019t reduce offending and doesn\u2019t create a disincentive to other offending. What we need to do is help the people who need to be changed, who can be changed, to be better citizens and to be more productive. In the end, that\u2019s good for all of us. That\u2019s good for all New Zealand. That\u2019s what a sensible criminal justice system should do, and we\u2019re determined to do it. It is time to have a Government step up and fix the mess of the last Government, and it is this Government that is doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u00228f968b0e28c04385b309b7613933f85a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f968b0e28c04385b309b7613933f85a\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is an absolute pleasure to be able to take a call this afternoon in this general debate. Well, just to continue on what Minister Little has just finished saying, looking at the Opposition, what a sad, sad, tired lot we have facing us these days. Five months in and we\u2019re seeing absolutely the same old pattern that we saw in Government. And what do we know from the past Government? Well, we know a heck of a lot more, having gotten into our ministerial positions of responsibility and opened up some books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhat have we found? What did we see? This is a party that knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing. The National Party is a party that is all sizzle, and at the end of the barbie there is no sausage. It\u2019s a party that talks big on the games, talks big about its Budgets, talks big about the money that\u2019s allocated, two, three, four, five years out, and when we get into Government, what do we find? Absolutely nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIn fact, this is a Government\u2014and I\u2019ve got to say to Minister Robertson, he was wrong. Minister Robertson, I\u2019m sorry, mate\u2014you were wrong. There was not an $11 billion hole in the National Government\u2019s Budget; there was a $31 billion hole. And where do we find that $31 billion? Well, it\u2019s the $11 billion that the Hon Grant Robertson identified during the election, but now we know that all the talk on the $20 billion capability plan was exactly that: talk, nothing else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe irony is that we went into negotiations to secure that funding, to give our Defence Force personnel certainty and security going forward, only to find that there was never a dollar allocated. Oh, there was money allocated for this year\u2014you know, operating costs. But when you look at those lines and columns and you pull out that wonderful, glossy book, the capability plan, there was one mention of the $20 billion, no tables, no outline years, no budget, no nothing. So all I\u2019ve got to say to the National Party is it\u2019s a good thing that they have time to sit in Opposition, to review their past performance, to wonder as to why they\u2019re there and maybe do a bit of cleansing, which is well on its way right now, and I understand there\u2019s more of that to come, Mr Carter\u2014David Carter, that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ESo, look, this is the past Government that kicked the can down the road on some big issues that we\u2019re having to deal with now. What\u2019s one? Well, one was the frigate system upgrade\u2014a $148 million blowout in the project\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256357a269e304c179c6bcd08cf381475\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f586496b247b41b1866183a5d94e21ae\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014a $148 million blowout in the project, that could have been settled by Mark Mitchell when he was the Minister. But did he do it? No\u2014can\u2019t make big decisions. He can order up a helicopter to take him from Whenuapai, 35 minutes down the road from his home, to take him to a dinner at Papakura, but he doesn\u2019t want to talk about that\u2014he doesn\u2019t want to front up and talk about that. He will talk about me getting on board an NH90, but won\u2019t talk about what he\u2019s done, his own track record. The track record is no decisions. The track record is kicking the can down the road, waiting until the election\u2019s out of the way, then we\u2019ll deal with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhat about the decision round the systems communications upgrade of the frigates? Ah, silence\u2014silence. So here we are faced with a situation where that project is yet to follow on the back of the frigate systems upgrade, which is seeing vessels put in dry dock and worked on. Why could Mr Mitchell not have brought both those projects together and have the projects done at the same time? Why? Because he can\u2019t make big decisions\u2014totally incapable of it, which is reflected in the mess that the Minister of Health is having to clean up with hospitals up in Auckland with mould, mildew, and sewage, and former members of the district health board now are talking about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWell, Mr Coleman had every bit of information he needed, but did that turn the minds or the heads of that past Government? Not one bit. It turned them as much as their sympathy about people\u2019s housing plights turned them. This is a Government that has a plan. I\u2019m so proud of the announcement on the road funding. Julie Anne Genter, stand up and take a bow\u2014and Mr Twyford. Finally, mayors around the country are applauding a Government for putting money into the rural\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9e4dbff93c44edbaf359d696ef73306\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: No, they\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284d05fbd34dc469082eae17d9c37b0af\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and provincial communities of New Zealand and dealing with the roading projects. We\u2019ll see all those old one-way bridges fixed up\u2014don\u2019t worry about it, Ms Dean; those one-way bridges will be fixed up\u2014and we will see a far happier local government in New Zealand than we have seen over the last nine years. Let me assure you of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e325b9274e4946e79611772a24bdbbd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e325b9274e4946e79611772a24bdbbd9\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. I am very proud, like the previous speaker, Ron Mark, of the transport policy that we announced yesterday. It\u2019s finally going to deliver the 21st century transport system that New Zealanders have been asking for for decades. Of course, for the last nine years, unfortunately, while they had petrol taxes and road-user charges being increased, the lion\u2019s share of the new investment was going into just a few highways, mainly in urban areas. Let\u2019s see where those roads of national significance were. Oh\u2014billions of dollars in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Hamilton, and Tauranga. So that must be why there was such a massive decline in the funding available for local roads and regional roads over the last nine years\u2014because there was. There was a massive decline in the funding in regions like Bay of Plenty, in\u2014OK, I\u2019ve got to get my list here\u2014Northland, Chatham Islands, Gisborne, Hawke\u2019s Bay, Southland, Taranaki, and West Coast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo all of those regions\u2014producing regions, where they have milk tankers and other important freight and tourism going on local and regional roads\u2014were completely neglected under the National Government\u2019s policy of pouring all of the money into a few uneconomic highway projects. The worst part is they actually made traffic worse in the urban areas, as we knew that they would. We could have spent that money across the entire nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, Jami-Lee Ross was saying a little bit earlier that there was a $5 billion reduction in the State highways category over 10 years and that that would have been spent in the regions. I have bad news for Jami-Lee Ross, because about half of that was just going to go on a few kilometres of highway in Auckland\u2014the East-West Link. Yet for half the cost of the East-West Link, we could afford to put median barriers on every kilometre of State highway in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, I know the Opposition struggles with analytical analysis, reasoning, and quantitative analysis, so I\u2019ve done some numbers for them, because, clearly, they read their little talking notes and they get all outraged, but if they actually looked at the Budget that we are proposing, they would see that their constituents are going to benefit much more, because we have a 20 percent increase in State highway maintenance and a 20 percent increase in local road maintenance\u2014almost a doubling over 10 years of investment in local roads. Why is that important? Because half\u2014half\u2014of all car and truck journeys, all vehicle kilometres travelled in the country, are on local roads, and yet, over the last nine years, that National Government was spending three to four times as much on State highways as on local roads. How can that make sense? How can it make sense to spend three to four times as much on State highways when half of all the trips are on local roads and, in fact, those local roads have to be subsidised by ratepayers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENo wonder we have ill-maintained roads across the country. No wonder we have washouts up in Northland. No wonder we have a disastrous, catastrophic number of serious injuries and deaths on our roads, increasing every year for the last five years, because there was a reduction in road policing and a reduction in road safety improvements on roads all over the country, just to pay for a few kilometres of upgraded highway in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Tauranga, and Hamilton that hasn\u2019t even given people what they actually want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, I can tell the Opposition that the people of Hamilton are absolutely thrilled that we\u2019re finally pursuing a passenger rail service between Hamilton and Auckland that might enable people to get to Auckland in a reasonable amount of time, because after the more than $2 billion they spent on the Waikato Expressway, it just gets people driving to the queue in South Auckland 10 to 20 minutes sooner, so they can just wait in traffic in Auckland longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo, finally, we have a smart investment in transport, and I don\u2019t doubt that all New Zealanders are going to see the benefit. And let\u2019s talk about those road-user charge and fuel tax increases, because do you know how much they\u2019re going to cost? Less than one cup a coffee a week for the average household\u2014even in Auckland\u2014after three years. I think that\u2019s a great deal to finally have a 21st century transport system that gives real choices to people: safe walking and cycling to school for our kids, which is good for their health and good for traffic; real public transport and rapid transit options between our towns and cities. Kia ora, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd7ff9ea0c0c4a7cb58dbc2e6e2cbae2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd7ff9ea0c0c4a7cb58dbc2e6e2cbae2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ve been wondering for quite a while now why this Government\u2019s policies seem so incoherent and fail to make any coherent sense. I mean, if you think about the first thing they did, it was to cancel the $1,000 a year tax adjustment because they were worried that wealthy families would receive too much of that, and then the second thing that they did was give those same wealthy families about $6,000 or $7,000 worth of free tertiary education. So I couldn\u2019t work out the coherency or the logic behind those two choices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen we heard that they were very keen to help the young people who were not in education, employment, or training into work, and they had these schemes up in Northland that were going to help this group that they were terribly concerned about. But then, on the same day, they announced that they were doing away with the 90-day trials, so any employer who is going to take a chance on somebody who\u2019s unskilled, hasn\u2019t had any experience, or comes from a different background is, somehow, more likely to take that chance in the absence of a 90-day trial. So there was no logic or coherency in that policy decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen we came along to regional development, and we had our good friend Mr Jones, the self-styled champion of the regions, going around handing out the money in little parcels around the country in order to help with investment in the regions. But, at the same time, this Government was proposing massive changes to the foreign investment rules that, basically, said to the rest of the world, \u201CClear off. We\u2019re not interested in your investment. Don\u2019t come here, please.\u201D So the regions themselves may get some extra resources from Government investment, but it won\u2019t anywhere near make up for the lost investment coming into the regions from foreign investors and, indeed, from domestic private sector investment, which has been put off by uncertainty around tax policy, uncertainty around industrial relations policy, and uncertainty around immigration policy. All these things add up to less investment going on in the regions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, this week, the clanger is the transport policy, which renders the Government\u2019s regional economic development strategy in tatters, because, again, we have Mr Jones talking about the provincial growth fund and $1 billion a year of investment, but, at the same time, the transport plan sucks billions of dollars out of the planned investment in regional roads. The lifeblood of the regions, such as the proposed highways into Northland that would open up that region, proposed highways around Tauranga and in the South Island\u2014all these major investments that the regions were going to see in the years ahead have been pulled away. So the investment that Shane Jones is making is being overwhelmed by the sucking out of investment from the regions in our transport policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why I said at question time\u2014and the Speaker was kind enough to not let me ask the question, but it is interesting to see\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299be3da487e747b28083888e9fa5f4ba\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286cd8f7184b841899744408ea4e1f1d6\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that Shane Jones, when it comes to defending the regions from big business, is a tiger, but when it comes to protecting the regions from his own Government, in which he is part of that very Cabinet, he is a pussycat. There\u2019s no question about it, and it\u2019s rather embarrassing to see this man. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve been asking myself, well, why is this? Why is this Government so incoherent? And, of course, the obvious answer is\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294d5ee00c3b6492884d6866d99cbfd61\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! No, I am going to interrupt the member, and warn Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick that she interjects or she stands, but not both at the same time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269a73a1b8b604eb6be7fd87dcf4963ed\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was in full flight trying to explain this incoherency in the Government, and the obvious reason for it is that it is not a coherent Government. It has three parties that are all pulling in different directions, and on each given day, one particular party wins a particular argument around each policy. So the Greens, of course, are crowing over the transport policy\u2014they won that one on that particular day. The next day, New Zealand First will win a particular argument about having lots of money to spend in the regions, and all these policies fight against each other and make no sense because the Government\u2019s pulling in one direction to appease that little group on Monday. And then, on Tuesday, they agree to something that the other little group of the Greens or the Labour Party agrees on, and on Wednesday it renders that asunder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo the country, of course, is left confused and befuddled by a Government that on every day is proposing things that are working in the exact opposite direction of what they proposed the day before. That is why, I\u2019m afraid, we\u2019re seeing this reduction in business and consumer confidence in this country, because nobody can have any clear sense\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4c38c78802c4ec98eda8036b70033ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4c38c78802c4ec98eda8036b70033ac\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022 data-id=\u00228d1c35c16c3f44158dfd4f8b47c0c19f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d1c35c16c3f44158dfd4f8b47c0c19f\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, it\u2019s a great day to be in Government. It\u2019s a great day to be part of this landmark Government of Labour, with our coalition and support parties in New Zealand First and the Greens. In particular, the engine room that we have within this Government\u2014I mustn\u2019t forget about our M\u0101ori caucus: 13 strong members of Parliament, seven of seven M\u0101ori electorates, and our other many capable members in our M\u0101ori caucus. It\u2019s a great day to be in Government, unlike the very lacklustre, sad, befuddled lot on the other side. I do acknowledge Paul Goldsmith, the \u201CPink Panther\u201D from Epsom there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3f8fc6b90e34615b45692595f53152e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b7e9096a9d6441fad9d74d1c92e8e00\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. But that contribution from the member from Epsom I think epitomises the state of the Opposition. They are very sad. They are forlorn. They are still grieving that they no longer have their Cabinet posts and are in Government. But, look, reality has hit home. Reality has hit home, and I think no more is that evidenced than by the lacklustre Leader of the Opposition, Mr Bridges. And I think I know what the issue is with Mr Bridges. I think he needs to bring back the Brylcreem. I think he needs to bring back the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7346e405c5844fdbb377bfe18c87962\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no. No, no. The member will resume his seat. I think there are matters of taste. I probably didn\u2019t intervene quickly enough on the Hon Andrew Little earlier on, but I think there are areas that we won\u2019t get into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260a56b4cee4841719891aa326179eba2\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s a free-flowing debate, sir, but I do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022772726f5b1884f2eb0588512c4aca887\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Well, the first thing we\u2019ll have, seeing as I\u2019m on my feet, is Mr Bishop withdrawing and apologising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfba356dfe9841678628c8b61abf0c75\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022767eb86e05a548f9b078a71ace356120\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And now we\u2019ll have Mr Tirikatene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230fac628a844492cbb683d652d092345\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248df3ac7beea46199031577aed34f49e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I\u2019m just going to warn the member that he\u2019s had two strikes. If he has another one, he finishes his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228023484ba7a54feda817d84b1dc527e9\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m just getting to the main point of my contribution today. It is great to be part of this Government, because, unlike the other side, which is really focusing on beltway, insignificant issues, this Government every day is making real changes for everyday Kiwis out there. None is more so than I can just give a selection of this week. From 1 April, 28,000 M\u0101ori families are better off, with an increase of 75c to the minimum wage\u2014an increase to $16.50 for the minimum wage. That makes a huge difference to working people and also their wh\u0101nau, and none more so than the over 50 percent of that group comprised of rangatahi, young workers. That\u2019s making a huge difference, not to mention the impacts from our Families Package, paid parental leave\u2014all of this host of measures which this Government is putting in place. Not being distracted by sideline issues, we\u2019re getting on with it every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003ELikewise this week we\u2019ve had the announcement of our transport policy. My electorate in Te Tai Tonga will benefit immensely from the doubling of the investment that will be going into local and regional roading in areas such as such as the West Coast - Tasman, Otago, and Southland. They will benefit. They\u2019ve been neglected. They were neglected by the last Government for nine years, and now we are putting the priorities on bringing balance back to our roading network, led ably by Minister Twyford. This Government is getting on with the business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003ECan I also mention the fact that under the nine years of the previous Government, massive under-investment was taking place in our health system. We\u2019ve seen that this week also, through the shocking condition that has been reported through Middlemore Hospital. As we\u2019ve heard, black mould and atrocious conditions are afflicting a major hospital in a major metropolitan area, and we are having to put the investments back into the health system. Significant investments\u2014$14 billion\u2014we\u2019re having to put in to repair the state of our health and our hospital infrastructure throughout the country, which will also include a new hospital for Dunedin, and that is long overdue, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EThis is a Government on the move. We\u2019re ably led by our executive team, under the leadership of the Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern. We\u2019re getting on with it. We\u2019re working hard every day for hard-working Kiwis\u2014hard-working Kiwis out there\u2014none more so than the many M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau that put their trust in our \u201CM\u0101ori Battalion\u201D that we have on this side of the House, which is bolstering the work ably under the five Ministers that we have, every day doing work which is taking our country forward and making a better life for all our wh\u0101nau out there. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022266466c959f443d592a33488284e7011\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022266466c959f443d592a33488284e7011\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you. It is very telling when members of the Government spend a large part of their contributions in the general debate talking about National\u2014thank you very much to the member who just resumed his seat, Rino Tirikatene. When they are not referring to and making nasty personal attacks on colleagues, they are delivering platitudes about hard-working New Zealanders. Well, that\u2019s all very fine and good, but there is some real damage being done to this country by this current Government, and we are beginning to see the extent of the damage that is being done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EWe are now getting a picture of what this Government is like. The tensions between the three warring factions are beginning to come out in the way of policy. I will give you an example. That example came to light yesterday in the Government\u2019s policy statement on land transport. Earlier in the debate, we had the Hon Julie Anne Genter absolutely glowing about the wonderful, marvellous\u2014marvellous\u201421st century traffic solution. What does that really mean? What does that really mean? That means trams for Auckland. What that really means is $5 billion of expenditure that would have gone into the regions being pulled in favour of trams and light rail for Auckland. Tell me how that is good for the regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First must be spitting with rage. Here we have the Green Party over on one side of the House\u2014for those members who follow Parliament\u2014who are talking about a completely Auckland-central funding mechanism. Imagine stealing $5 billion out of the regions and standing up and being happy about it. Then on another side of the House, we have New Zealand First and the Hon Shane Jones with his regional investment fund, which they say is doing everything for the regions. Where is the compatibility between those two policies? Why are they stealing $5 billion in favour of Auckland and then they have Shane Jones trying to run a very strong campaign for is home town in Northland with his regional development fund? There is a lack of coherency in this Government policy. The trouble is it would be almost amusing if it weren\u2019t having a real effect on New Zealanders in the region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI had a chat to a relative of mine who lives down South, in my electorate, in fact. This relative of mine, a lady, lives on an invalids benefit\u2014has done all her adult life, because she has got cerebral palsy. My relative budgets very, very carefully down to the last dollar. She puts the rest of us to shame. She budgets $7 per week for fuel. She needs that fuel so she can go to the doctor, so she can go to the supermarket, so she can go to the swimming pool to do exercise, and so she can go into town and do her job. She is not unlike many, many, many New Zealanders on low, fixed incomes\u2014so $7 a week for fuel. A quick reckoning means that an extra 10c per litre fuel tax on this lady adds $3 to her weekly fuel bill, bringing it to $10 a week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ENow, $3 might not seem like much to some members in this House, but for those New Zealanders who budget very, very carefully down to the last dollar, actually, 100-odd dollars a year is a significant dent in their budget, which they cannot spend on other things. That is before every other thing that that lady and every other New Zealander in the regions has to factor in: the cost of food and the cost of every other commodity because of the fuel tax going on top. They don\u2019t get any benefit out of it, because this is a transport policy for Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EDo not tell us that this is a transport policy that is in any way going to benefit rural and provincial New Zealand, because it is not. It is going to drive cost for ordinary New Zealanders throughout New Zealand\u2014never mind Aucklanders, who are going to be paying up to 27c extra per litre of fuel. This is a poor, poor policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022922e75ca57de44b9b274fe727888a7bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022922e75ca57de44b9b274fe727888a7bd\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s an absolute privilege to speak in my first general debate. What I want to talk about today is the absolute dire state of our health system. I mean, everybody\u2019s been focusing at the moment on the state of the Middlemore Hospital buildings, and they\u2019re talking about that toxic mould growing on the walls. They are talking about leaking sewage. What they\u2019re also saying is the district health board (DHB) CEOs talking about the fact that they were too reluctant to actually go back to the Government to get some more money to fix it, because of that whole pressure to stay in surplus, to balance the books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThe question is well, what has been happening beyond that in our health system? Before the election there was a lot of talk\u2014and I used these figures\u2014about a $2.3 billion underspend. The whole sense of that was that the previous Government hadn\u2019t been keeping up with those basic cost pressures: population growth and staff wages. We were accumulating that gradual, gradual deficit in our health funding going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EI think the problem, though, when I think about what was happening in my own DHB and what\u2019s happening now across the health sector, what my colleagues are telling me\u2014$2.3 billion is kind of hard to understand. You don\u2019t really capture what\u2019s been happening. But for me, thinking about it, what has been happening\u2014the best analogy I can think about is when I used to work in A \u0026amp; E and we used to see these patients coming in with slow internal bleeding. I think the problem was when we used to work in A \u0026amp; E, people would come in with trauma and you\u2019d jump on to it straight away. You\u2019d see it, you\u2019d put pressure on, you\u2019d give them IV fluids, and you\u2019d sort it out. But the ones we used to get taught about to be careful of were those slow bleeders\u2014the one you get with that gradual, gradual dripping away, loss of blood volume. What had happened was you\u2019d send them up to the ward, you\u2019d send them home, and they\u2019d suddenly crash. So the problem was that it was those ones who were actually much more sinister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EWhen I think about our own health system and what\u2019s been happening there\u2014the first sign something was going wrong in those patients was that their heart rate would start to go up. They\u2019d start to have their heart beating faster, to get that blood round the system. And what I see in our own health workforce is they\u2019ve been working harder and harder in order to keep things happening. Because they\u2019re committed to their patients, because they believe in what they\u2019re doing, they\u2019re burning themselves out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EWhat we are seeing in our A \u0026amp; Es is those staff working really, really long shifts. What I\u2019m seeing across our midwifery is those midwives are working really, really long hours, putting all that effort in. And what I\u2019m seeing in our mental health system is these health professionals taking on this burden of care, and it\u2019s starting to burn them out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EWhat was concerning me was some of these people I\u2019ve been talking to, the health workforce, said initially that they were doing it out of love for their patients, out of care for what they were doing. But now they\u2019re starting to burn out and give up, and they\u2019re starting to walk away. So we\u2019ve got a real problem there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EBut the other thing is when a patient starts to decompensate further, they shut down the periphery, to divert all the blood flow up to the core heart, the brain, the lungs\u2014the really important bits. What\u2019s been happening in my own DHB is the DHB\u2019s been diverting anything away that it can\u2014the electives. Basically, anything that\u2019s not urgent has been diverted away to core business, like the acute A \u0026amp; Es, so those with chronic medical conditions are missing out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThe number of people that came to me over the last few months, talking about how they were in absolute agony with hip pain, with knee pain\u2014they\u2019re in wheelchairs when they shouldn\u2019t be. They are having to give up work because they can\u2019t get the operations they need. There were delayed cancer diagnoses because they can\u2019t get a colonoscopy, waiting months and months\u2014six months, eight months for an ultrasound scan. Patients have been suffering. It\u2019s not just an academic exercise with this $2.3 billion; it\u2019s having a real impact down where I live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThe problem is, though, the DHBs can\u2019t divert that blood flow away from anywhere else, because they\u2019re overflowing in their A \u0026amp; E departments. There are people coming in with acute respiratory infectious diseases. And so our health system is starting to shut down. The problem is, with a patient, if you don\u2019t stop the bleeding, eventually they crash. Then what happens is you need to get in and put in a massive resuscitation effort, with a massive bolus of IV fluids. And that\u2019s what our health system is needing at the moment: a massive cash injection just to stand still, to restore that blood pressure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EI think the problem is that the previous Government prided themselves on being good economic managers, but how I saw it was that they were starving the kids to pay the mortgage. But now what we find out is they weren\u2019t even paying the mortgage payments. What they were doing was kicking the can down the line, so we\u2019re now up to $14 billion just in health infrastructure alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EOur Government is going to fix it, but we can\u2019t do it all in one Budget. We may not even take one term. But we are committed to restoring our health services for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022023a681a82804c83a248fea79581a5af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022023a681a82804c83a248fea79581a5af\u0022\u003EANDREW FALLOON (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, the transport Minister, Phil Twyford, released the Government Policy Statement on Land Transport. For me, as the member of Parliament for Rangitata, and for many of my regional colleagues, it made for sober reading. More fuel taxes are on the way, with a fuel tax of at least between 9c and 12c and potentially more when the Auckland fuel levy is rolled out to other regions. Now, some members might recall the Labour Party travelling round the country before the last election, making all sorts of comments about tax\u2014I certainly do. Just a week before the election, in an attempt to burnish his economic credentials, Grant Robertson made the following statement: \u201CThere will be no new taxes or levies introduced in our first term of Government beyond those we have already announced.\u201D Now, Labour has been in Government for less than six months, and how many times has that already been broken? How many times will it be broken again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s worse, though, is what we\u2019re getting for that money. We\u2019re going to pay more, but we\u2019ll get less. The National Land Transport Fund is paid for out of road-user charges and petrol taxes. It\u2019s vitally important for the continued maintenance of roads by the New Zealand Transport Agency and councils and improving the roading network. By cutting $5 billion out of it to spend on Auckland rail projects and cycleways, the transport Minister is putting a huge number of critically important transport projects in the bin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EI come from one of the regions that Shane Jones often likes to stand up and claim that he speaks for. Mid-Canterbury and South Canterbury have grown strongly in recent years. With a strong economy, our farms and businesses have succeeded, and as a result, traffic across the region has increased. The success of Prime Port in Timaru and the development and expansion of the inland port at Rolleston have seen more trucks travelling between the two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EThere are more tourists on our roads. The number of international tourists has doubled in the last 15 years. Where previously they might have stuck to places like Auckland and Rotorua, now far more of them are coming to the South Island and are driving themselves around. All of these factors have caused State Highway 1\u2014particularly between Christchurch and Ashburton\u2014to become more congested, more often, and all of that growth is projected to continue. It\u2019s impacting on safety. The road as it is now\u2014two lanes, with passing lanes\u2014is becoming more dangerous. Every week, I meet people who are no longer willing to drive on the road through to Christchurch, nervous about the number of trucks or drivers new to our roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EWhat used to be a straightforward one-hour drive now regularly sees delays of 20 minutes, 30 minutes, or, as we saw on the weekend, even longer. Not only are those delays frustrating for passenger traffic, they\u2019re also contributing to costly delays for freight\u2014particularly in the Canterbury and South Island economies\u2014through higher freight fees and missed deadlines. Those small deadlines, though, are dwarfed by the impact of the closure of the R\u0101kaia bridge. As we\u2019ve seen from the Canterbury and Kaik\u014Dura earthquakes, to build resilience in the network we need second bridge crossings over the R\u0101kaia River and the Ashburton River.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the announcement made by Phil Twyford yesterday makes those sorts of investments nearly impossible under this Government. Important roading projects like four-laning State Highway 1 won\u2019t happen. Belfast to Pegasus won\u2019t happen. Upgrading the road between Queenstown and Milford won\u2019t happen. A second bridge over the Ashburton River won\u2019t happen. My constituents and others across the South Island and regional New Zealand will pay more but will get less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EThis is a Government who have already turned their backs on the regions. Instead of backing our regions, instead of investing in the engine room of the New Zealand economy, Phil Twyford and the Labour - New Zealand First Government have decided to put all their eggs in the Auckland basket. It makes a complete falsehood of Shane Jones\u2019 attempts to woo regional New Zealand. It makes his $3 billion pot nothing more than a slush fund to make up for the cuts made elsewhere by his Government, but only to his favoured region of Northland. It\u2019s more evidence that this is a Government that has given up on the regions and given up on people south of the Bombay Hills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002268ead9b86c3447ae9ce5a77b47f60af0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268ead9b86c3447ae9ce5a77b47f60af0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next member\u2014I have said something previously, and I\u2019m now going to say it for the last time, and that is that in the general debate, members must not read their speeches. A cheery suggestion to the member Andrew Falloon is that until he\u2019s confident, he might want to sit slightly further away from me, because it then doesn\u2019t become quite as obvious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u002228e5400bf39a4424b28dceb966d9903b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228e5400bf39a4424b28dceb966d9903b\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A-SUISUIKI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. I\u2019m privileged to stand here today. It\u2019s the first time I\u2019m contributing in a general debate, so I just want to thank the members of the public for voting for a Labour coalition Government. Thank you, New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EToday, I want to acknowledge a leader who today, if she was alive, would be 90 years old. Maya Angelou was an American poet, a singer, a member of the civil rights defence activists, and today, if she was alive, she would be 90 years old. I mention Maya Angelou because I want to\u2014there\u2019s a quote of hers that I like. She has influenced millions of people. I\u2019ve chosen one quote to share with the House today, and that quote is \u201CFaith is the evidence of the unseen.\u201D\u2014faith is the evidence of the unseen. I put it to you today, to all the speakers on the other side, that New Zealanders, for the last nine years, had faith\u2014or diminished faith\u2014in the National Government. Why do I say that? I\u2019ll get to that later on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EI live in Counties Manukau, which covers the Counties Manukau District Health Board. In 2016, the estimated population of Counties Manukau was about half a million, which represents 11 percent of New Zealand\u2019s population. At the time of the census, 36 percent of Counties Manukau are living in areas classed as the most socio-economically deprived areas in New Zealand. I want to acknowledge that 36 percent, which means that 64 percent of New Zealanders in Counties Manukau are actually boxing above their weight despite being neglected by this Government in the last nine years. In that sense, I want to acknowledge Joseph Parker, who fought for New Zealand not long ago, in the weekend. We were all so proud of him. Most of us in this House were glued to the TV.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EBut despite Counties Manukau boxing above their weight, we\u2019ve heard today in this very House, in this very House\u2014I think I\u2019ll go back to an experience. Because I live in Counties Manukau, I visit Middlemore Hospital all the time, and when I walk through the corridors of Middlemore Hospital\u2014there were days that were reported in the paper, but I\u2019ve seen it in real life: patients sleeping in the corridors. What the people of Counties Manukau had faith in was that the Government was funding the district health board sufficiently to be able to provide for the sickness of the people that lived in Counties Manukau. What they didn\u2019t know is that there\u2019s a building that cannot be used by the sick people of Counties Manukau because it has been neglected for the last nine years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve said that despite being neglected by the National Government, Counties Manukau boxed above their weight, and, as mentioned by Dr Liz Craig, the district health board comes to the Health Committee and they\u2019ve talked about\u2014I can say that they had little faith that what they were saying in terms of the voice of experience would have been heard by the then Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the last\u2014that health Minister Dr Coleman lives in Northcote. He was the last member for Northcote\u2014he will vacate the seat. If you had to drive from Northcote to Counties Manukau in peak hour, it\u2019d probably be faster for someone to drive from Whangarei to Auckland, really, because the traffic problem in Auckland is shocking\u2014shocking that the last Government had neglected it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a member\u2019s bill that\u2019s been drawn under my name, and I\u2019m asking this House that another language other than English and Te Reo M\u0101ori be used by members when they take their oath or their declaration of allegiance in this House. Today, we\u2019ve heard a member from the National Party who has come in, because the tigers they were in the last Government have become pussies and some of them have just fallen off and have gone off, and we\u2019ve had to replace them off the list. I want to send a message to Agnes Loheni and to the member who stood in New Lynn for the National Party to practise Samoan and Italian, because by the time they come in\u2014it may be June, July\u2014they probably will be able to, say, take their oath in Samoan or Italian, because, I tell you, people in this last Government are dropping off like flies. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226493395ff1d3445eb0a8abbf7f5d6e38\u0022\u003ECrimes (Increased Penalty for Providing Explosive to Commit Crime) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e12be310523472ab723f3cd3c52aca6\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022 data-id=\u002299ab2c33498f44b2bfbaf5effebd2dbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299ab2c33498f44b2bfbaf5effebd2dbe\u0022\u003EALASTAIR SCOTT (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Crimes (Increased Penalty for Providing Explosive to Commit Crime) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I\u2019d like to thank the Justice Committee, who reviewed this bill. It was an interesting process. There was good debate. I think both sides of the argument could reflect and understand the others, and I appreciate that understanding across the select committee. But, unfortunately, neither side could have a majority. It was a four on four situation, and that is why we are here today, debating it and having a second reading. So there was no outright opposition; nor was there a majority of support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to reflect on the select committee report, to start with, and discuss\u2014so I\u2019m going to preface this by talking about section 272 of the Crimes Act\u2014I\u2019m just going to refer to that as \u201C272\u201D; section 55 of the Arms Act, as \u201Csection 55\u201D; section 202 of the Crimes Act, and I\u2019m going to say \u201C202\u201D only; and section 51 of the Arms Act, I\u2019m just going to say \u201Csection 51\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003EThere are a number of reasons that half of the committee recommended this bill not proceed, and I\u2019d like to address a number of those points. The difference between a lot of these sections is quite subtle. For example, section 272, which is the section that this bill amends, does not necessarily require possession, whereas section 55 and section 202 do require possession of explosives to kick in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003ESection 55, along with 272, also needs intent, but in section 202 there is not necessarily intent needed for the crime to take place. Instead of intent, the explosive must be found in a public place. So the public place factor outweighs, if you like, or complements or overrides the intent that other sections must have. So 272 requires intent but not possession, and I\u2019m going to give an example of where this section 272 as amended might have applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003EIn Australia, just this week, we had an example of explosives potentially being used to hurt people in Brisbane. So there\u2019s been a guy charged with four counts: manufacturing an explosive without authority or without a lawful purpose or with intent to commit a crime. I\u2019d like to reflect on the change in technology that enables people to commit crime without the possession of the explosive, without the possession even in their own home. We can operate so many more things remotely through technology, through the internet, so I\u2019d like the House to consider the situation where 272 as amended applies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003ESo, as I say, no possession is required. The operator is remote. He or she is sitting in his office and is enabling an explosive that is held in another place. Now, there must be intent for that crime to occur under 272, so there must be evidence to prove intent. All I\u2019m saying here is that where that situation occurs, where one can prove that there is intent to commit a crime using explosives but remotely, at the moment the maximum penalty is two years. It is only two years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003ENow, that brings me on to a Law Commission report which was mentioned in the select committee, published in 2013. I\u2019ll quote from that report. It\u2019s study paper 21, Maximum Penalties for Criminal Offences. So a review of a number of offences took place but was not completed, but in any case the Law Commission chose to publish this report. It says, \u201CThe offence under s 272\u201D\u2014which is what we\u2019re talking about here today\u2014\u201Cof the Crimes Act of possessing or making an explosive device with intent to commit a crime carries a maximum penalty of two years\u2019 imprisonment, notwithstanding the fact that in the worst class of case the person committing the offence will possess an explosive, again with the intent of committing mass murder or an offence causing catastrophic economic consequences, although not having reached the stage of an attempt.\u201D So the button wasn\u2019t pulled, the trigger wasn\u2019t pulled. All right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003ESo this is all about the police or the investigators discovering, through technology probably, that this is probably or about to occur. We can talk about\u2014we know that there are terrorist activities going on regularly and as close as in Brisbane and Sydney and in the Canadian Parliament. We don\u2019t want them to occur. We don\u2019t want to have to wait for them to occur before we arrest the guy or girl. We want to know and understand, and get the intent and prosecute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003ESo, to go back to the report: \u201CWe placed this offence in Category G, alongside offences that predominantly have current maximum penalties of seven to 10 years\u2019 imprisonment.\u201D\u2014so seven to 10 years. \u201CWe note in passing that this puts it alongside the almost identical offence in s 55 of the Arms Act of possessing a firearm or explosive device with intent to commit an offence punishable by imprisonment for three years or more.\u201D\u2014so a minimum of three and a maximum of five for that section 55.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll try and explain\u2014well, I will explain\u2014the difference between sections 55 and 272. Basically, the difference is the possession. So section 55, \u201C[The offender] commits an offence and is liable on conviction \u2026 [da, da, da for] 5 years who has with him any firearm\u201D. So there\u2019s a possession that must take place for section 55 to kick in and there also must be intent to commit an offence\u2014so only an intent, and this was part of the argument for rejecting my bill. The argument was that it was only intent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003EWell, I say intent is as important and sits alongside the fact that one pulls the trigger. That\u2019s the only difference. Someone pulls the trigger, or not. Someone gets an opportunity to pull the trigger, or not. So section 55 also only required intent and, as I say, carries a prison term of three years or more, up to five years. So the only difference is possession. I say possession is really not relevant. It doesn\u2019t matter if one is in physical possession of the explosive, to come under section 55. I say possession is really a minor factor, because we know that one can control the device without being in possession. The device can be sitting in a car halfway across the planet but can be controlled by a person that is not in a public place and is nowhere near the bomb, near the explosive, and creates as much of a problem as if that person was in possession. So that\u2019s the difference between sections 55 and 272, and I say that the punishment should be the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00223833254f7c9f46ecadc5d02f3d6232d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223833254f7c9f46ecadc5d02f3d6232d3\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Assistant Speaker. This is my third term in Parliament, and I\u2019ve sat through a number of these members\u2019 days. You can tell the bills that are probably going to make it, because the member stands up and he or she speaks with conviction, with passion. They go hard, they\u2019ve done their research, they know what they want to say, they bring people into the gallery who are there supporting them because this is a passion of theirs. This is why they got into Parliament: to change the law, to change people\u2019s lives. This is not one of those bills, and that was not one of those speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI hold these things called \u201Cstreet corner meetings\u201D. I\u2019ve been doing them for about six years now, and every Sunday that I can, I go along and I speak to the people of Napier and ask them about the issues. Law and order is a big issue\u2014law and order is a big issue\u2014but I can tell you with my hand on my heart that no one has ever said to me, in a street corner meeting, or in my role as Opposition spokesman for police, or in my role as a Minister of Police, \u201CMr Nash, if you change the law from providing explosives to commit a crime from two years to five years, I\u2019m going to vote for you.\u201D And I\u2019ll take it even further: no one has ever said to me, \u201CI\u2019m concerned about Kiwis making bombs to kill people, or I\u2019m concerned about Kiwis providing explosives to terrorists.\u201D It has never once come up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m not saying that the street corner meetings are a fair or true representation of what happens around New Zealand. I\u2019m not saying that, in the Manawat\u016B or Wairarapa or Masterton or Dannevirke, this isn\u2019t a really big issue, because it might be. It might be. And maybe Mr Scott has been approached by a group of concerned citizens who have said, \u201CYou\u2019ve got to change the law here because we are really concerned that there\u2019s a group in Dannevirke who are making explosives.\u201D But I doubt it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhen I said that this is my third term here and that I\u2019ve sat through a number of these members\u2019 days and have spoken to them, I also know what happens is that members like Mr Scott put a bill in the ballot because they\u2019ve been told, \u201CYou need to fill a spot. You need to fill a spot, and you\u2019ll take this one.\u201D So Mr Scott said, \u201COK, I\u2019ll put it in there, and the odds of it being pulled out are highly remote.\u201D When my bill got pulled out of the ballot, it was fantastic because it was about an issue that was really important for the people of Napier, and we lost by one vote. But I know that when Mr Scott\u2019s bill got pulled out, he went, \u201COh my God! What\u2019s happened here?\u201D I remember because this was pulled out in the last term. This came to the select committee that I sat on, and the member sat in front of the select committee and said, \u201CWell, this is what I want to do.\u201D and we looked at him and said, \u201CAre you really going to waste the select committee\u2019s time with this?\u201D And he said, \u201CIt got pulled out of the ballot.\u201D So, as a select committee, we talked about how we were going to go through this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI think, if I\u2019m right\u2014and the member may correct me if I\u2019m wrong, and please take a point of order if I am, because I\u2019m happy to be corrected here\u2014there\u2019s been about two people tried under this clause in the last 50 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b531d76176ef4043a14bab6133f4213f\u0022\u003EPriyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: Three people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244d60461bc8947b098ee8a9368542f0d\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Three people, and is it 50 or 100 years? Well, anyway, this is not something that the police are spending an inordinate amount of time on, rounding up people and putting them in front of the judiciary so they can go to jail. In terms of the police work plan, in terms of the justice work plan, this is not high on it. I\u2019m sorry, but this is just not high on it. Mr Scott, there are important law and order issues. There really are things that we want the police to concentrate on. There are things that really concern the people of New Zealand, about our law and order system in our communities, which we are going hard on, and that I know members from both sides of the House will have been petitioned on by constituents\u2014things like burglary, things like sexual assault, things like robbery, things like car conversion, even homicide. These are serious law and order issues, and the lack of police to deal with them\u2014the fact that less than 10 percent of burglaries, crimes against property, are being solved. These are big issues\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206d478e92d3d4ce593637de40ecf8f17\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: All under a National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261dc6a5bf8b74c228ff008f1cd0ed336\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and Mr Ball\u2019s got it right. This is why we love coalition politics, because New Zealand First and Labour heard what the people of New Zealand were saying about law and order, and we have said that we are going to strive to put 1,800 officers on our streets over three years. It\u2019s why Mr Bishop is being very, very quiet on law and order. He knows this is the right thing to do, and he knows his Government wouldn\u2019t even come close to delivering this if they were there. Thank God they\u2019re not. Thank God they\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a7a0d46d71048f5bc68836201c7955b\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: How\u2019s the 1,800 going?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206fbd1e176f2422f936c6b15e1c87230\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: So we don\u2019t hear anything from Mr Bishop on this one. But I will also say that Mr Bishop hasn\u2019t come to me, nor has Mr Scott come to me, as the Minister of Police, and said, \u201CHey, can we work together on this one? Can we work together?\u201D There\u2019s been no reaching across the House to say, \u201CThis is an issue that the people of Wainui\u014Dmata have come to me and said they want Labour and National to work together on because it\u2019s important.\u201D, because it\u2019s not. It\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that we have a problem at the moment: it\u2019s the fact that our jails are full. They\u2019re full of people who, possibly, shouldn\u2019t be there, because they haven\u2019t committed a crime of violence; they don\u2019t pose any direct threat to our community or our societies. But they\u2019re there, and we\u2019re trying to deal with this at the moment. Any piece of legislation that comes before this House that I have a look at that says, \u201CIncrease the term of imprisonment\u201D, I take a good hard look and say, \u201CWhy? What is the overriding business case to keep someone in jail for five years rather than two years?\u201D\u2014if, in fact, they are put in front of a judge for committing such a crime; if, in fact, they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIn fact, what will happen is that the judiciary will look at this and go, \u201CHmm, I don\u2019t think that this really fits with where we want to be.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f35d86e2b9b43f4ac78962126b94013\u0022\u003EAlastair Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Talk to the Law Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de7913a9071e4763b5f3d592ab69b33a\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve talked to the Ministry of Justice, and the Ministry of Justice spoke to the select committee, and the Ministry of Justice said, \u201CWe don\u2019t think this is a good idea.\u201D\u2014we don\u2019t think this is a good idea. In fact, there are very few people who do believe this is a good idea. This is not the sort of bill that we want to be wasting a whole lot of time on, and what I urge Mr Scott to do\u2014and I\u2019ll be so bold as to give him some advice, and I don\u2019t mean to sound arrogant about this, because I don\u2019t mean to be in any way, shape, or form. His electorate sort of abuts the electorate that abuts mine. We\u2019re provincial MPs. What I would ask him to do is actually go out and speak to his constituents. And that would be a drive, because he lives in Wellington, so he would have to drive over the Rimutakas. So he would have to be over there\u2014he\u2019d have to live there\u2014but that\u2019s beside the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhat he would have to do is just have a talk to his constituents and be direct\u2014just be really direct and call a public meeting, go to his constituents, put a message up on that big billboard and say, \u201CI\u2019m calling a public meeting on the issue of increasing penalties for providing explosives to commit a crime.\u201D If he gets more than three people there\u2014and they\u2019ll be his electorate secretary, if he employs one\u2014then I\u2019ll eat my hat. The reason I say that is this is just not an issue that is important to the people of New Zealand. It\u2019s just not an issue on the law and order spectrum, on the justice spectrum that\u2019s front of mind\u2014not even back of mind; it\u2019s not even \u201Cin\u201D mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EMr Scott, well done on getting the bill pulled out of the ballot. I think there was a little bit of analysis there, because you talked about a case that was in Brisbane. I didn\u2019t see that in a google search, but maybe this is an issue in Brisbane. Maybe what we could do is take this bill, give it to the state Parliament in Queensland and say, \u201CIt hasn\u2019t worked in New Zealand but maybe you need it here.\u201D And do you know what the Queenslanders would say to him, \u201CGo away. Go away. Have a beer and go away.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis is just not an issue that is important to people, but good on you for getting it to the select committee. The fact is that the Government members on the select committee saw sense and actually said themselves, \u201CWe are not going to clog up our legislative agenda with something that\u2019s not important. We\u2019re not going to fill our prisons.\u201D Well, we\u2019re not going to fill our prisons, because no one\u2019s been tried under this. No one\u2019s in front of the judiciary. It\u2019s like arguing about an issue that simply doesn\u2019t exist. In fact, the issue does exist because Mr Scott brought it up. So it goes along like this: if this is the radar, it\u2019s way below the radar, it\u2019s up, and it will drop below the radar again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI just hope that Mr Scott comes up with something meaningful, because I would hate to think that his legacy is being the MP that brought the bill before the House that wanted to increase penalties for providing explosives to commit a crime. Go and talk to the constituents about law and order. Go and talk to them about what is important, what the police should spend their time doing, who we need in our jails, what we need to do there, what the judiciary should be counting on. I\u2019m not going to be support this bill, if that\u2019s not obvious already. I can\u2019t support his bill, because I just think it\u2019s a nothing; it\u2019s a waste of time. We don\u2019t need it, it doesn\u2019t address a substantive issue, and there are 10 minutes of my life that I\u2019m never going to get back. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022988b1241037f47ec999ca5935db2445f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022988b1241037f47ec999ca5935db2445f\u0022\u003EHon MAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I rise to talk to the Crimes (Increased Penalty for Providing Explosive to Commit Crime) Amendment Bill at its second reading. I think that the member Stuart Nash, who just resumed his seat, probably should stick to pumping iron in the gym and huffing and puffing his way through it. He\u2019s clearly an expert on what is irrelevant to his constituents. If he ever does speak to them, for example, he might want to ask them why the Coroners (Access to Body of Dead Person) Amendment Bill, a four-liner spun into a legislative filibuster in this House\u2014so much of Labour\u2019s legislation, residential tenancies legislation and others, are all about padding out a legislative time frame and timetable which Labour has been woefully inadequate at being able to fill. So it\u2019s very rich coming from that member, who, if he speaks to his constituents about pumping iron might get somewhere, but otherwise would appear to be quite out of touch with what people really want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EIncreasing prison statistics is about keeping people in jail if they do bad things. Consistency is what this bill, I think, has at its heart and as its strength. For the member who resumed his seat to assume that we will not have a case like the Boston Marathon, where, people may recall, a young man with a backpack put it down. It was an explosive. It claimed lives. We have seen explosives in London, which have caused mayhem. That member may be completely out of touch with what may be coming our way, but I think deterrence and the ability to ensure that this country has a very tidy and consistent penalty regime is important, and that\u2019s why this is a very useful piece of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWe have an amendment to the Crimes Act and the Arms Act. This bill aims, in its consistency, for a maximum penalty for providing explosives to commit an offence from a maximum term of two years\u2019 imprisonment to up to five years\u2014so, consistency. It\u2019s a little bit what the psychoactive substances bill is trying to do, also. It is to make it as serious a penalty as marijuana. So getting the message across to the people who would do bad things like peddle bad drugs or use explosives in a public place that they will get the consistent penalties that the law and the judiciary will have the ability to hand down. So I think it\u2019s very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s also very important to note that New Zealanders do need to feel safe in their homes and their communities and, as well as that, in public places. There are a number of major public events that I have attended, and they include the respectful ones. Laying wreaths for Anzac Day is one that is coming up. We do not want to be, as a nation, fearful of what people may think they can get away with because the Government is soft on crime, and this Government is. They want to not build prisons. They don\u2019t want people to go into the prisons, so what does that mean? All penalties will be reduced down to six months or a year. Let the villains out on the street. Let them do their worst, and the New Zealanders\u2014we will be bearing the brunt of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EThe Law Commission, for example\u2014an august body with possibly even a lot more knowledge of the law than the member who resumed his seat\u2014has recommended increasing the penalty and the maximum penalties for criminal offences. In their report, they compared section 272 with section 55 of the Arms Act, and considered that the two sections are almost identical. However, section 55 carries a maximum penalty of five years, and there is no possible justification, says the Law Commission, for that lack of consistency. So this is about tidying up something that needs to be tidied up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First\u2019s position remains unclear. They weren\u2019t on the Justice Committee. I\u2019ll be interested to hear what they have to say on this. It would be useful if New Zealand First stuck to its core brand of being tough on crime and making sure that bad people were locked up and dealt to, so it will be very interesting to see whether they will add their weight to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EBut I feel that this is a piece of legislation\u2014while perhaps not the largest and most significant piece of legislation this House will deal with in this term, it is still an important piece. I commend the member for coming up with it, for the research, and for the work that he has put into it. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed303492eb5f47cabb77dfa546a84f68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed303492eb5f47cabb77dfa546a84f68\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I\u2019d like to start by acknowledging the National member who is sponsoring this member\u2019s bill, Mr Alastair Scott. I\u2019d also like to acknowledge the intent behind the bill. The bill was very well-intentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ELabour supported the bill and voted for the bill\u2019s first reading, to be referred to the select committee. I believe it was the Law and Order Committee and Mr Bakshi was the chairman of that select committee. I\u2019d like to acknowledge Mr Bakshi, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EWe heard submissions and had discussions at length. What I can confirm at this stage is we were convinced by the officials and we were convinced by the Law Commission reports, but we were not convinced by Mr Scott and his National colleagues. So Labour will not be supporting this bill, and this bill should not proceed. The simple reason is that probably Mr Scott has got his intention right but got the vehicle wrong, because section 272 is not the right vehicle. Section 272 is the preparatory offence, and I\u2019ll come to that point later on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EFor those who are interested in knowing the detailed analysis before such a kind of conclusion could be drawn, I would suggest that they have a good look at the brief report from the Justice Committee presented to the House in March 2018, the initial briefing dated 28 April 2017, and the departmental report presented to the Justice Committee in February 2018. Probably, I should run a caveat, because the following provisions that I\u2019m more inclined to refer to are from the departmental report to show the seriousness and the gravity of the reasoning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EFirst of all, let\u2019s look at the purpose of this bill. The purpose of this bill is to increase the penalty under section 272 of the Crimes Act from a maximum of two years\u2019 imprisonment to a maximum of five years\u2019 imprisonment. The stated aim is to increase the penalty for those who provide explosives to another with the intent that an offence be committed. I\u2019ve got no problem with that, and I support the call that we should increase the penalty and should impose a harsher penalty in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ESection 272 is a preparatory offence. It is merely about possessing or making an explosive with the necessary intent. It does not require another offence to ever be carried out with the explosive. Indeed, the intent that another offence be committed may never come to fruition, hence the relatively low penalty. So that\u2019s the entire logic behind the relatively low penalty in terms of section 272. So the rationale behind the low penalty in section 272 is that it is a preparatory offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ESection 272, if we have a good look at the Crimes Act, is drafted to deal with the situation where a person\u2019s conduct has not necessarily reached the threshold necessary to create criminal liability for an attempt to commit an offence. An attempt requires an act of more than mere preparation and one which is immediately or approximately connected with the intended offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI heard what Mr Scott tried to do, which was to add more layers of his analysis to appreciate the reasons behind his member\u2019s bill, and he specifically mentioned clause 202A of the Crimes Act and section 51 of the Arms Act. At the select committee hearing sessions, we did have some close looks at those sections, and, again, I would like to read out one paragraph which is very important for us to note to appreciate the reasoning from the departmental report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ERegarding section 202A of the Crimes Act, \u201CThe first limb of the offence in section 202A \u2026 requires both that the relevant offensive weapon (which includes explosives) be in a public place and that the person has no lawful authority or reasonable excuse for having it. Both those critical elements are missing from section 272. That means that a person could be liable for making or possessing an explosive under section 272 (with the necessary intent) in a secure, private place where there is no risk to the public and where the person has a reasonable excuse or lawful authority for making or possessing the explosive (for example the person manufactures or possesses explosives for a lawful purpose such as quarrying or mining operation).\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EWith regard to section 51 of the Arms Act, \u201CSection 51 requires that both the explosive be in a public place (thereby increasing the potential for harm) and that no lawful purpose exists for having it. Therefore, the arguments for a higher penalty than in section 272 are the same in this context.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ESo back to section 272, if I may oversimplify the scenarios\u2014I could give two scenarios. One is from, probably, the National members\u2019 point of view, which is that anyone who is not supporting this particular member\u2019s bill could be seen as being soft on crime. The second scenario, again, if I may oversimplify, is that if Mr Scott\u2019s reasoning and conclusion apply, then, for instance, a developer who has to use explosives for the purpose of development in a similar fashion as mining, quarrying, road works, or construction may be liable for and be subject to a term of imprisonment of five years. So this is the irony behind section 272, should Mr Scott\u2019s reasoning and conclusion apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EAgain, the Hon Maggie Barry mentioned the Law Commission\u2019s report, which was mentioned, again, in Mr Scott\u2019s speech earlier. I\u2019d like to draw to the attention of the House that in its 2013 study paper, Maximum Penalties for Criminal Offences, the Law Commission concluded that there is no justification for the difference in penalty in section 272 of the Crimes Act and in section 55 of the Arms Act, which has a current maximum penalty of five years\u2019 imprisonment. But that should be taking into consideration the nature of section 272, which is, again, a preparatory offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ETo conclude, Mr Scott\u2019s got his intention right. His reasoning sounds good, and his bill does sound good, and I supported the call for imposing such kind of harsher imprisonment and penalties for whatever the crimes would be in that regard. But, should the bill proceed, that would create a kind of confusion and anomaly, because the entire rationale contradicts some basic principles of criminal law in this country and in other comparable overseas jurisdictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022f259277c695f49fc8b3a15d803e8cec8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f259277c695f49fc8b3a15d803e8cec8\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. Well, I really would like to congratulate that member, Raymond Huo, for his very considered and generous appraisal of this very thin piece of legislation, which we are called upon to debate here this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI will, actually, as I did in the first reading when I spoke on this piece of legislation, congratulate the member for the Wairarapa, Mr Alastair Scott, firstly, on his clear and absolute victory in the Wairarapa, where 13,000-plus voters said that they wanted him to represent them as their elected member. And why did they do that? Because Mr Scott lives, eats, and breathes in the very heart of the Wairarapa. There is no denying that this is a member of the House who\u2019s thoroughly, absolutely connected to his electorate\u2014so much so that he reads the pulse from here, frequently. He reads the pulse of the Wairarapa from Wellington frequently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThat is why he was driven, as a new MP, to come to this House, to spend so much time researching the issues which I know thousands of the people who voted for him brought to his electorate office. I know he\u2019d spend many, many hours sitting there holding clinics, hearing from hundreds of his electorate people, hearing their concerns, putting them together, coming to the House, researching the law, and coming to grips with the deficiencies in the law as pertains to the penalties for providing explosive devices to commit crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EMr Scott put that research together, came up with an amendment, put the bill together, put it into the ballot, and, hallelujah, he was successful. I mean, some other less generous people would say that Mr Scott, on the instructions of his own party caucus colleagues and his Ministers, crafted this bill together very quickly, ably assisted by the Minister responsible, and threw it in in order to act as a blocker to try and stop Opposition members getting their bills drawn. But I consider those to be very disingenuous comments, not befitting the hard-working Mr Alastair Scott, who brought this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENow, at the time that we debated this bill\u2014and I spent more time debating it than the Hon Maggie Barry just spent defending it, which I think just clicked over four minutes. She blew six minutes out the window, sat down, and there you have it. But I think I actually spoke for the whole 10 minutes in supporting Mr Scott and saying, on behalf of New Zealand, that I know that he spent many hours lying awake considering that act of terrorism that resulted in Ernie Abbott being killed at the Trades Hall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI know Mr Scott is deeply concerned about the rights and the liberties of trade unionists, and it concerned him that Ernie Abbott was killed and his dog was seriously injured. I know in the background that must have been one of the things weighing heavily on his mind. I know that in the back of his mind he must have been seriously considering the Rainbow Warrior and the act of terrorism that was afflicted upon this nation. But I would\u2019ve thought that he would\u2019ve done a little bit more study and realised that the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior was treated as an act of terrorism, and so too was the bombing of the Trades Hall that, unfortunately, saw Mr Abbott killed. And I would\u2019ve thought that he would\u2019ve known from there that the laws, as they currently exist, were perfectly suited to hand out a life sentence to those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EBut all of that being as it may, we supported his bill. We supported it, but we did flag some reservations, like why only five years? And I actually said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b144c49ca6d44f81ad396df66c200808\u0022\u003EAlastair Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Can\u2019t even be bothered getting in a car\u2014has to fly himself around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc99895a12df4f809ce9296ebc806aa5\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Mr Scott wants to interject over NH90s. And we all know that it was a member of his committee who was flying into Masterton at the time and made a comment on the radio\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfcdadf31a8447a0b712677db991919d\u0022\u003EAlastair Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Can\u2019t even mention 272. Do you know what Act you\u2019re talking about? You don\u2019t even know the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ff0702ed8944b7e98ac4345632f49ae\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and fed Mr Scott, who couldn\u2019t do it himself, so he fed it to Mr Mitchell. And Mr Mitchell\u2014oh, Mr Scott\u2019s still going. He\u2019s really concerned about NH90s!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EBut we know that Mr Scott, unfortunately, put Mr Mitchell in the gun sights, because now everybody knows that Mr Mitchell flew to a dinner party in Papakura from Whenuapai in a Seasprite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022606bbcbbc34448a7ab09922b50f20324\u0022\u003EAlastair Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Which section are you talking about? What bill are you talking about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec88bb808dd84925849e94d8484f3dea\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, now he wants to get back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccb16c6cea6b4b68a1ade22768d39576\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member knows this is well outside the scope of the bill, which is to do with the Crimes (Increased Penalty for Providing Explosive to Commit Crime) Amendment Bill. I ask the member to come back to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220210689a351144e4b14befcfc01f6694\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022958a0f4b779f410c80a683a916a61039\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t need any help on this, thank you. The member is actually correct, and this debate has been following that pattern for a while, and we\u2019ll come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6c8e229035a46718ce708f6c2c28481\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I would simply\u2014as Mr Scott now wants to come back to the bill, I will definitely do so. I recall in the debate, Mr Scott, suggesting was five years enough? I recall asking why a minimum sentence of five years? I\u2019ve seen nothing in the way of a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP). I see nothing in the National Party\u2019s comments in the Justice Committee. I\u2019ve got the select committee report here. It\u2019s pretty thin. It\u2019s really, really thin, and I see nothing in here from the National Party members saying, \u201CLet\u2019s make it life. Let\u2019s make it life without parole.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c33a92d5e27a41ac9398208b8a0c2604\u0022\u003EAlastair Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s your SOP?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022462c519dcb6c45e9b4bf54f1b5948231\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014Mr Scott is chipping away, so we go now. If the member was deathly serious about this issue, why did the member not bring it back to the Table with an amendment saying, \u201CLet\u2019s make it life.\u201D or \u201CLet\u2019s make it a minimum of 10 years.\u201D? Let\u2019s make it a minimum\u2014not five years; a mandatory 10 years or a mandatory five years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EYou see, this is a joke Mr Scott, and it\u2019s been treated as a joke because it is a joke. The fact that his own members can\u2019t stand up and speak for more than five minutes in support of him on this bill says it all\u2014says it all. For the record, there is no one in Masterton, Dannevirke, Pah\u012Batua, Woodville, or Eket\u0101huna screaming out for this piece of legislation to be passed, in valuable Government time. Mr Scott was a member of the Government with direct access to the executive\u2014direct access, where he could have gone and said, \u201CWe\u2019ve got housing problems in the Wairarapa.\u201D Remember, you turkeys sold off 541 houses\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f23400267904f7dbe4c5070dda747d7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am not a turkey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022789fd19908b14e86b27fe678bff357ec\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: No. Mr Scott could have referred to his own Cabinet Ministers and been very forceful and very strong in his representation of the homeless in Masterton, but, no, we have this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ESo forgive me, Mr Scott, if New Zealand First has a little bit of a chuckle or is somewhat derisive of the legislation, because it is not what\u2019s beating at the hearts, pressing the minds, of the Wairarapa people. I acknowledge that 13,000 of them voted for the member to come to this House and make a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThis piece of legislation\u2014if we are to look at the seriousness of the issue that Mr Scott raises, it\u2019s dealt with in the Crimes Act, it\u2019s dealt with in the Terrorism Suppression Act, and it\u2019s dealt with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b8b73eba67b49e689fea9f77e678f67\u0022\u003EAlastair Scott\u003C/span\u003E: The Law Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b0a4e0fc0324e01a7cdff4bf4e75683\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Law Commission\u2019s not the only person who had an opinion, Mr Scott. He chips in again. I love it when they keep coming back for more, you know? The Ministry of Justice says it\u2019s not required. So we have the Ministry of Justice versus the Law Commission, and I do recall Mr Scott himself, on occasion, being quite critical of the Law Commission and some of the advice that it gave, where the Opposition was happy with that advice. So he can\u2019t have ducks and drakes\u2014I like the Law Commission today, I didn\u2019t like them yesterday, I\u2019ll like them tomorrow if they agree with me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EMr Scott, if one is really serious about this issue, come back again, like I did with the suppression of gangs bill. Come back again and again\u2014that bill that the member\u2019s party voted against. Lowering the age of criminal responsibility\u2014remember the bill that his party voted against? Don\u2019t preach at New Zealand First about being tough on law and order, in a sort of whimsical attempt to try and get this piece of rubbish across the table. We deserve something more substantive, Mr Scott, and so too, by the way, do the people of the Wairarapa. They deserve more substantive representation than this. They deserve someone to take the matter seriously. They deserve to know that when they come to the House with their issues, it will override pieces of legislation like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EMr Scott, we know that the Crimes Act, that the Terrorism Suppression Act, the legislation that New Zealand First supported\u2014in actual fact, I think the Rt Hon Winston Peters brought that legislation to the House when we were in coalition with Labour the last time. We have tried desperately to get some heavier penalties brought in to deal with crime, to try to get gangs outlawed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228397f0c298144589a9be53c1146ec690\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019re in Government now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225237852acd4545ecac4ce71ae19790f1\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014only to be thwarted by the National Party, Mr Bishop\u2014only to be thwarted by the National Party, Mr Bishop. Time and time again, Mr Bishop. So don\u2019t come in here all pious, Mr Bishop. He\u2019s chipping in again; he loves it. Mr Bishop, stand firm on this bill and support your colleague. We respect and admire that. But, Mr Bishop, you know, in your heart, that this is a load of rubbish, and it\u2019s going to be treated accordingly. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002218d2a66eb63246bd8d7ea6a110bbdd85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218d2a66eb63246bd8d7ea6a110bbdd85\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Assistant Speaker. What a spiteful speech. That\u2019s the only way to describe it\u2014just full of spite and vitriol. If the member who just resumed his seat wants a reason why he\u2019s not the MP for Wairarapa, which he so desperately, obviously, vehemently wants to be, it\u2019s speeches like that\u2014spiteful, vitriolic, hate-filled. That was 10 minutes of hate towards my friend and colleague Alastair Scott. It was eight minutes on Alastair Scott\u2014a sort of helicopter view of Alastair Scott, you might call it; a chopper view\u2014and about two minutes on the bill, 90 seconds of which actually were on the substantive part of it. That was just a spite-filled speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis is a sensible piece of legislation. No one\u2019s pretending it\u2019s changing the world. No one\u2019s pretending it\u2019s the Terrorism Suppression Act or deals with gangs or is all of the legislation that Ron Mark has spent a lot of time trying to introduce. My message to you, my friend, is that you\u2019re in Government now. You\u2019re the Minister of Defence. You\u2019re the Minister of a lot of other things. If you can convince the Green Party and your Labour Party colleagues in the coalition to do all the things, like lowering the age of criminal responsibility and cracking down on gangs, fill your boots, son, because the National Party may well support you. But we\u2019ll wait and see where the Labour and New Zealand First coalition goes with its \u201Ctough on crime\u201D policies, because they\u2019ve got a pretty big barrier sitting near to me in the Chamber, who I don\u2019t think will be supporting that legislation. But, you know, let\u2019s wait and see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThat was a very poor speech by Mr Mark\u2014a very poor speech. He says it\u2019s a waste of Government time. Well, this is members\u2019 day, and, actually, Mr Scott has put forward a useful piece of legislation. We had a good examination of it in the Justice Committee, and it\u2019s fair to say that there\u2019s, basically, a division of views between the expert advisers. The Law Commission recommended this change; the Ministry of Justice, I\u2019ve got to say, argued vehemently\u2014vehemently\u2014against it. We had a clash of the experts. It\u2019s always interesting at select committee when you have a clash of the experts, because it seemed to me they almost got more involved in the bill than we did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe select committee was unable to reach a viewpoint as to whether or not the bill should proceed. We think it should proceed, and the National Party will be voting for the bill to proceed. We agree with the Law Commission, essentially. We think it is a sensible change. Members often exhort Parliament and the Government to pick up Law Commission recommendations. In fact, the Law Commission itself has said, on numerous occasions, that the Parliament does not act quickly enough upon what it does. The Law Commission is the expert law reform body in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFrankly, with due respect to the Ministry of Justice, the days of Geoffrey Palmer\u2019s Ministry of Justice, with the legislative drafting team and the great law reform unit within the Ministry of Justice, are over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f6b40bf6be24caeb9cd242293880c44\u0022\u003EHon Ron Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t he on the Law Commission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022333ddcc2fdf54a3db63c002b2347eb8c\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly! Ron Mark says he\u2019s now on the Law Commission. That\u2019s exactly right. He makes my exact point. Back in 1988, Sir Geoffrey Palmer set up the Law Commission and we exiled, for want of a better phrase, the expert reformers in our bureaucracy over to the Law Commission. We said to the Law Commission, \u201CTake the considered time to use the resources that Parliament gives you\u201D\u2014and we\u2019ve given them extensive resources over the years\u2014\u201Cuse the time and the resources and use the money to propose recommendations for law reform.\u201D Andrew Little is making use of the Law Commission now, when it comes to abortion law reform, for example, and that\u2019s actually an appropriate thing to do, because it\u2019s a very technical area of the law. It\u2019s a contested area of the law. It\u2019s a tricky area, and you want the experts to go away and look at things like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo too with the Crimes Act 1961 and the various very technical offences around explosives, providing explosives to commit crimes. So the Law Commission has recommended increasing the penalty level of section 272, in its report, Maximum Penalties for Criminal Offences, Law Commission report 21. They compare section 272 with section 55 of the Arms Act and consider that the two sections are almost identical. Section 55 of the Arms Act has a maximum penalty of five years and the difference in penalty has no possible justification. That\u2019s the Law Commission\u2019s recommendation. There\u2019s no possible justification for the difference in penalties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo Alastair Scott, my friend and colleague, has introduced a very sensible member\u2019s bill. No one is pretending it\u2019s changing the world, but, actually\u2014and I\u2019ve made this point on numerous occasions in Parliament\u2014not every bill that Parliament considers is abortion law reform or euthanasia or gay marriage or anything like that. Sometimes the process of Parliament and the reason why we\u2019re put here is actually to tidy up the statute book and to improve things, and, actually, that is a very important job of a deliberative body and deliberative legislature like the New Zealand Parliament. Alastair Scott is doing a good job in doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo he\u2019s put forward this bill. It\u2019s gone to the committee. We agree with the Law Commission\u2014there\u2019s no justification for the differences in penalties\u2014and therefore we\u2019re supporting the bill going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe look forward to New Zealand First\u2019s vote on the bill. It was not clear from Ron Mark\u2019s contribution whether or not they\u2019ll be supporting the bill or not. They supported it at first reading, albeit with caveats, as I know Mr Mark says. I suspect from the spite and hate in his speech towards my colleague Alastair Scott that New Zealand First will no longer be supporting the bill, and I think that would be a shame. Although, if it does get voted down at second reading, at some point Parliament is going to have to consider this issue again, perhaps under Ron Mark\u2019s stewardship as Minister of Defence and Minister for law and order\u2014the self-styled \u201CMinister for Tough on Crime\u201D. Let\u2019s wait and see, but this is a good bill; it deserves to go forward through its second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022934eb30897634d229ca5411e837a4daa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022934eb30897634d229ca5411e837a4daa\u0022\u003EVIRGINIA ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on this interesting bill, the Crimes (Increased Penalty for Providing Explosive to Commit Crime) Amendment Bill. When I went down to the desk to pick up a copy of this bill, I picked up five, but I thought I was just going for one. So it\u2019s quite short, this bill, and the purpose of the bill is to amend the Crimes Act 1961 to increase the penalty for providing explosives to commit an offence from a maximum of two years to a maximum of five years. Isn\u2019t that interesting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EOne of the things I\u2019d be really keen to hear from the member who put this bill forward is where the idea came from. I\u2019m assuming, maybe, it was the Law Commission\u2019s view, but often with a member\u2019s bill there\u2019s a moment of clarity or greater good for all of humanity, where you see this great opportunity to make the world a better place, and you can tweak a piece of legislation in order to bring that wish or hope to fruition. I fail to see how increase this crime to a maximum of five years really makes any huge difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI will talk about the difference between the Law Commission\u2019s view and the view from the Ministry of Justice that was debated at select committee, and look at those two different points of view. But before we get to that, I\u2019d like a more general discussion around the value of increasing penalties, because that\u2019s exactly what this member\u2019s bill does\u2014it simply increases a penalty from two to five years. So I\u2019d like to know\u2014and I\u2019m interested to hear from members opposite as to how any given problem that society is faced with is addressed by increasing a penalty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhen I was thinking about this, I thought back on the things I\u2019ve worked on in my past, where, time after time, previous National Governments have gone ahead and increased penalties. One of the areas that I worked in was fleeing drivers or failure to stop, and this is a fascinating area to look at. Time and time again, we\u2019ve seen increased fines and increased penalties for those, and guess what? They still do it. Do you really think that the person\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234c806455f78489197bb497b1bfd4839\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cb7902469f94d83bfbf84caab464dd7\u0022\u003EVIRGINIA ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014sorry\u2014whether they be carrying explosives or whether they be fleeing from police, pause for a moment and think, \u201COh, that\u2019s right, I just looked up law online and I realised that that penalty\u2019s gone up by three years. I\u2019ll pull the car over right now and say sorry.\u201D That doesn\u2019t happen. Increasing penalties in general, as this bill proposes to do, does not address the underlying problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIf we have an underlying problem in New Zealand of more individuals carrying explosives, of there being a greater risk of terrorism, then those are issues of social cohesion. Those are issues of how we have a good, healthy community where everyone can celebrate their differences and feel like they belong to New Zealand. That\u2019s the kind of society that disincentivises people blowing up things, not increasing a penalty to five years. So I question the ability to change and influence the benefit of New Zealand by simply increasing prison penalties. As we have seen, what that does is fill up our jails. As we have seen, what this does is increase the amount of money that taxpayers pay to keep somebody in prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn 2009, when there was a problem with boy racers, as they were called\u2014illegal street racing\u2014we saw the failure to stop penalty increase. The fine was increased to $2,000. Lo and behold, in 2015, we have Michael Woodhouse, the then Minister of Police, with the following quote: \u201CIncreasing these penalties\u201D\u2014this is four years after they\u2019d been increased already\u2014\u201Cenhances the deterrent effect and sends a strong message from government that failing to stop is a dangerous [risk] and [it] \u2026 will not be tolerated.\u201D And yet, still we face the problem of the same issue occurring. So my problem, the fundamental problem with this bill as it\u2019s proposed\u2014we can talk about the nuances around the different views from the Ministry of Justice and the Law Commission, but the underlying problem is that a straight-out increase of penalties does not address the underlying problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ERight, so let\u2019s have a wee look at the differences between the two points of view that we examined at the Justice Committee. There\u2019s one interesting point here\u2014so what this bill, I understand, is endeavouring to do is to disincentivise those who may use explosives by enabling a harsher penalty for before the crime has been committed. It\u2019s almost a bit sci-fi Tom Cruise movie stuff where you can have thought crimes. So they\u2019ve not actually committed the crime, but they\u2019ve got a detonator or they\u2019ve got a cellphone, even, and so that is example enough that a crime is going to be committed with explosives, and that, in itself, warrants a harsher penalty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s quoted here, from the Ministry of Justice, that \u201CA person does not become guilty of a crime by merely thinking about it. There must always be some external manifestation of conduct to transform a criminal thought into culpable conduct. \u2026 Accordingly\u201D\u2014this is where the Ministry of Justice and the advisers do not agree\u2014\u201Cwhile section 272 provides a mechanism to allow the Police to act in circumstances necessary to prevent another offence from occurring, we do not consider that a case has been made to justify a greater penalty than already provided. Indeed, the academic view expressed\u201D\u2014which I\u2019ve just explained\u2014\u201Cin [the paragraph above] may suggest that only a relatively low penalty is appropriate for such an offence.\u201D So the view from the Ministry of Justice is the fact that the crime has not been committed means that it cannot be the same as the two compared. So it is not the same as section 55 in the Arms Act, and it, in fact, is a crime that has not been completed, so therefore it does not justify having a greater sentence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI would like to round up by saying that, to be honest, I think that we could spend time in this House considering more significant issues than increasing penalties on the potential to blow things up. I think there are far greater issues that confront New Zealand in terms of housing, in terms of jobs, in terms of the state of our hospitals, in terms of the state of our schools. We should be looking at those issues that matter far greater than having to comb our minds for small pieces such as this to try and cobble together a member\u2019s bill. I have a fundamental belief\u2014and so, I\u2019m pleased, does the Labour Party\u2014that an outright increase in penalties might look tough and might come across as looking like some action has been taken, but it does not address underlying problems that are causing what will be happening in that space. I\u2019ve already outlined that, yes, there are big concerns internationally with the threat of terrorism. There are big concerns in terms of how we enhance social cohesion, not just in New Zealand but right across the globe, but by threatening and by putting greater penalties and by alienating communities\u2014that is not the way to go about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe have, here in New Zealand, a difference from other countries. We have the Treaty of Waitangi that provides a strong foundation for all cultures to work together to communicate in partnership and to have a greater understanding of the principles that are important to each other\u2019s cultures. That is the pathway forward: greater understanding, greater communication, and greater ability to work together; not by standing over, by trying to increase penalties as a threat to make people work together more comprehensively. So for that reason, that\u2019s why the Labour members of the Justice Committee did not support this legislation going further, and that is why we will not be commending this bill for further consideration. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u00225445cfd507e248388e44c519a70e59d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225445cfd507e248388e44c519a70e59d5\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Whilst I do congratulate the member Alastair Scott, who has brought this bill to the House, for his work on it, it is a curious bill, and that\u2019s largely because of the three premises that it comes to us with. In looking at this bill, I had a look at the previous file we have on it. The previous Green Party member dealing with this issue had on file a response from the previous Minister of Justice to an Official Information Act request in which the senior ministry official responding said, \u201COur original assessment of the bill is that the bill is not outside the range of comparable offences.\u201D So the first premise of this bill\u2014that the sentences for this type of offending need to go up to be in line with comparable offences\u2014was actually rejected initially by the previous Ministry of Justice itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThen the letter goes on to say that section 202 of the Crimes Act, which the member referenced, broadly defines \u201Coffensive weapons\u201D to include explosives. So, in fact, this type of offending can be charged to have the higher sentences applied to it in any case. As others have pointed out here, if terrorism is what\u2019s being committed using explosives, or if murder is being committed, then those are also offences with much, much higher penalties\u2014in fact, life imprisonment\u2014available already within our criminal justice regime. So the initial practical premise of the bill in terms of consistency seems to be missing when we look at this bill more closely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe second premise, of course, is that this type of offending is somehow on the rise or is of concern to us outside of, you know, terror, murder, and that type of thing, which are already crimes, as I\u2019ve already just said. It doesn\u2019t seem to be on the rise at all\u2014I mean, we\u2019ve already heard that there have only been two cases of this type of offending before our courts. So that seems curious, as well, in terms of why this bill has come so far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EBut, of course, the third premise, and the one that concerns the Green Party\u2014and this new Government, I happily note\u2014is also largely refuted now by pretty sound evidence. That premise is that raising sentences in response to crime\u2014even very serious crime that might actually be of concern within our criminal justice system\u2014actually will reduce that type of offending. It will actually keep our communities safe. We now know, and we\u2019ve known for about 15 years\u2014it\u2019s been 15 years since the first substantive study into deterrent effects of sentences was conducted\u2014it\u2019s just not true. It doesn\u2019t work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ELuckily, we stand today at the start of a new era in responses to criminal justice issues. After nine long years of justice policy, of penal policy, being focused solely on making politicians look tough, we now get to adopt policy that actually works, that actually reduces crime, and that actually keeps communities safe. We will not do that by adopting the same old policies\u2014by telling the victims of crimes and by telling our communities that raising prison sentences is going to keep them safe. That has now become callous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EAs policy makers, as lawmakers, we have a responsibility to respond to the evidence. We know that every time we\u2019ve raised sentences in any area of criminal justice, or in crimes of any nature, that type of offending has actually increased. Over the last nine years\u2014and this was a policy initiated by Mike Sabin, the ex - member for Northland for the National Party\u2014we raised sentences mostly in serious drug offending. We now know, based on evidence, that in terms of methamphetamine offending, every single year since we made that type of drug a class A controlled drug and raised the sentence to life imprisonment\u2014every year\u2014the instances of supply and manufacture of methamphetamine in our courts went up, to the point that right now, this year, methamphetamine offending is about to overtake cannabis in its prevalence before our courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EA class A - type drug, since we made it a class A - type drug\u2014since we started imposing sentences of 18 to 20 years regularly\u2014is about to overtake cannabis. That\u2019s frightening, and it is a testament to the total failure of this policy. We should be embarrassed as policy makers if, in the face of that evidence, we continue to do the same thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ELast week, the Green Party was very happy to welcome the report by the Prime Minister\u2019s chief scientist, Sir Peter Gluckman, that said that, in fact, imprisonment has failed to keep us safe in all the broad spectrum of criminal offending, that our justice system is in fact broken, and that doing the same thing over and over again is not going to fix it. It\u2019s damaging to our communities. It diverts billions of dollars away from initiatives and from remedies that can actually stop crime and that can rehabilitate prisoners once we actually do lock them up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EI know from personal experience, from over a decade working in criminal justice, that our prisons are now not really well-equipped enough or staffed enough. Some of those are Serco corporation - run prisons not equipped enough to run programmes like drug and alcohol counselling, or even literacy programmes or anger management programmes. We can\u2019t parole people\u2014which is actually their legal right\u2014based solely on how under-resourced these institutions are. So once they serve their lengthy sentences and we put them back out into the community, we\u2019ve not invested anything. We\u2019ve lost this invaluable opportunity to rehabilitate people, to help them to rejoin their communities, and to help them not to return. So recidivism is on the rise, filling our prisons again and again, because we\u2019ve diverted money\u2014resource\u2014away from remedies that we know will actually keep us safe. As politicians, we have chosen\u2014or the previous Government has chosen to make itself look tough, and that is callous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo this new Government isn\u2019t going to keep doing the same thing in the face of overwhelming evidence that it will not work. We are going to invest in people, whether that\u2019s in housing, whether that\u2019s in creating jobs, or whether that\u2019s in mental health care. We\u2019re not going to use prisons as mental health institutions any more, as we\u2019ve been doing, unfortunately\u2014sadly, heartbreakingly\u2014in New Zealand for a decade now. We\u2019re going to invest in people, so that we actually stop crime and so that we actually keep our communities safe. This will be a new era. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EOur focus in justice policy is going to be on stopping crime, not on making ourselves look tough. That is why the Green Party will not be supporting this bill today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022883699ecb2154c1f93a518a53b95ebed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022883699ecb2154c1f93a518a53b95ebed\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand this is a split call. Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi\u2014you have five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u00228017aa003dc0405393c5464fa20bc959\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228017aa003dc0405393c5464fa20bc959\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker, for the opportunity to stand and support Alastair Scott\u2019s bill. I think it is a very sensible bill which addresses an issue which was raised by the Law Commission. Increasing the penalty makes sure that we address the issue which was raised. National has been tough on crime, and we know that this present-day Government is very soft on crime. The contribution by Ginny Andersen clearly shows that they are going to be soft on crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge the contribution by Raymond Huo, the chair of the Justice Committee\u2014a very sensible contribution which talked about the bill. Some of the Government members did not even mention about the bill, but were having a personal vendetta\u2014for example, the Hon Ron Mark. He clearly, in his speech, wanted to just say that Alastair Scott\u2014he lost the election to him by 13,000 votes but he could not say that. He kept on targeting Alastair Scott\u2014that he won by 16,000, but he did not mention that he lost to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EComing back to what Raymond Huo mentioned\u2014the intent of the bill is very clear, and that\u2019s what is the crux of this bill: that we have to address the issues which have been identified. The identified issue was that imprisonment of two years is too low; it should be five years. That\u2019s what this bill intends to do. I hope that there could be a change of minds still\u2014there are a few more speeches\u2014that the Labour Party might change their mind and support the bill brought by Alastair Scott. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6d391545c2545468e75332b196f944c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6d391545c2545468e75332b196f944c\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I must admit I\u2019m taken by surprise to have to speak so early. I thought at least the previous speaker, Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi, who stood to speak in support of his colleague\u2019s bill, would be able to last five minutes, but he couldn\u2019t. But I\u2019m not totally surprised. It\u2019s not a great bill. I\u2019ve got to be honest: it\u2019s not that flash, because it doesn\u2019t actually provide us anything that\u2019s worthwhile. But I do want to take the opportunity to acknowledge the member that introduced it to the House, the current Wairarapa MP, Alastair Scott. I want to reassure you that I will not use this opportunity to attack you personally, as tempting as that may be. The point is that you\u2019ve put forward a member\u2019s bill, and I believe it deserves the respect that it should get in this House, despite the fact that I don\u2019t agree with it. I say that respectfully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI said during the last campaign that if I was lucky enough to get into this House, having been an opponent of Mr Scott at the previous election, then I would work collaboratively, and I would not have a go, and so I won\u2019t. But the bill is pretty poor because it addresses an issue that doesn\u2019t need to be addressed, and that was reflected in the Justice Committee process. Of course, it does suggest that section 272 of the Crimes Act be extended from the two years\u2019 imprisonment to five years\u2019 imprisonment, despite the fact that there have been only three instances since 2007 of people being tried under this legislation. That is not an example of some drastic need in this country to change this law through what is proposed here, in the Crimes (Increased Penalty for Providing Explosive to Commit Crime) Amendment Bill. I note that the heading of this section, \u201CProviding explosive to commit crime\u201D, does not reflect the elements of the offence. No part of section 272 requires that an explosive be provided to another person. There\u2019s simply not enough need to warrant this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt is somewhat of a wasted opportunity, because there are many pressing issues facing this country, and I know of many MPs that have gone their whole career without having a member\u2019s bill pulled from the ballot. I understand that the right honourable Speaker of the House, Trevor Mallard, is one of those MPs. After 27 years in this House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220c12074b78649778c525c11031dc21c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Can we come back to the bill, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b8c98cc839247bc81574280e6209c6e\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: This bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022601c9c72a2574661b6f468191c0fbacd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: It would be useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022670a432a9fac4dd5aae4ac3fbd23076e\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: This shocking bill? I\u2019ll get back to this poor bill in front of us now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271e2b9c5d6fb4cb0adc8095dbd42f3dc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: That would be useful. If you have nothing further to say, you can take your seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8f83385602946b4aee9457b1a7ceaf3\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, look, I\u2019ve got plenty. I\u2019ve got a minute and 53 seconds more to speak, Madam Assistant Speaker. The point here is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb80c0380a72493ca7f2a5b9aae1af42\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Make it count.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213c5973ea4ff418bb22f23b67fc1cf97\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014increasing the length of a prison sentence is an expensive and, arguably, an ineffective way to reduce offending. There have been many examples brought forward to the House this evening that highlight the fact that increasing sentences just for the purposes of deterrence is not effective, and that is, essentially, what this bill proposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI do note in the opening address Mr Scott indicated somewhat of a frustration that intent, in his view, is essentially the same as the act, and that is something that I just simply cannot agree with. The member used the example of \u201Cpulling the trigger\u201D, and I can\u2019t see how the logic is there, that the intent to commit that act, to commit pulling the trigger, is as bad or almost as bad as actually doing that itself. If that is the logic behind this bill, then I\u2019m not surprised that this has failed to get unanimous support at the select committee stage. There are numerous examples in the past, not just in New Zealand, where increasing the term of imprisonment in a bill has not acted as a deterrent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s one point that I want to make, in my remaining time, around New Zealand\u2019s prison population. It is at capacity already. There would be no sense whatsoever, if indeed anyone was tried in the future under this legislation with an increased prison sentence, to increase our prison population just for the sake of it, which I fear is what\u2019s being proposed today. So, along with my colleagues here in the Labour Party, we will not be supporting this bill, but good on him for giving it a go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022378ed5b3bf72470f805892aa096f360e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022378ed5b3bf72470f805892aa096f360e\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a short call on this bill, and I\u2019d like to start by congratulating my colleague the MP for Wairarapa, Alastair Scott, for working hard on this bill and getting this bill through here to its second reading. Well done. On this side of the House, clearly you can see we\u2019re making no apology for being tough on crime, and, clearly, providing explosives to commit a crime is a serious offence and warrants a tough penalty. Surely there\u2019s no one who cannot see that sort of linkage. Now, the current penalty is two years, and during the Justice Committee process Alastair Scott pointed out that the crime of conspiracy has a penalty of seven years. Surely we can see the disproportionality between those two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EFurthermore, as the committee was looking into this disproportionality, the committee was informed by officials\u2014and I actually found it quite interesting, too, as I was reading through the document\u2014as to how penalty levels are actually set. I wanted to read from the transcript here. \u201CWhen assessing appropriate penalty levels for offences the Ministry of Justice does not take into account just one element of the offence. A range of factors including the mens rea (mental element), the actus reus (the physical element), on whom the burden of proof lies, the nature of harm being addressed and the proximity of the acts being criminalised [in] the commission of a prohibited (harmful) act are all taken into account. In addition, the relativity of the penalty to other offences dealing with the same or similar subject matter is [also] taken into account in assessing the appropriate hierarchy of penalties.\u201D So I learnt something there as to, you know, how we come to have two years and seven years and so on and so forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ENow, there were three submitters to the select committee, all in favour of the bill. There was one supplementary, also. Ben Fraser made three points. He was very much in support of the bill. He recognised the risk of explosives, and cited international incidents. He also said that the increase in penalty for the offence would be proportionate to the risk and harm, and he thought that increasing the penalties would be beneficial. The second submitter, Mr Forsyth, was also in support of the bill, and the third submitter, Mr Bryce, again was in support of the bill. He wondered if it could also be extended to include safety ammunition and propellant powders. This was kind of interesting. Officials came back and said, \u201CLook, that\u2019s probably actually covered under section 272, in that where it says \u2018any explosive substance, or any dangerous engine, instrument, or thing,\u2019 it\u2019s likely that the court will also interpret that into existing legislation.\u201D So, in summary, all the submitters supported this bill. We clearly support this bill. It makes sense, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd8cec6edf5d4535ae34425b6efc8c4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd8cec6edf5d4535ae34425b6efc8c4f\u0022\u003EPRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Assistant Speaker, I rise to take a call on the Crimes (Increased Penalty for Providing Explosive to Commit Crime) Amendment Bill, the title of which is potentially longer than the substance of the bill. I actually felt for the member Alastair Scott. As the member Kieran McAnulty said, I\u2019m not standing up here to have a go, either, but it was actually quite heart-wrenching to see the member\u2019s speech, which was a display of an abject lack of conviction in his own bill. It was very sad to see, because, you know, all of us, as members of this House, when we put members\u2019 bills into that ballot, wait for them to be called. They\u2019re often pieces of legislation that we are passionate about, and it was quite sad to see that complete lack of passion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EBut anyway, I want to begin by addressing a couple of comments that were made by members opposite, one of which was the rhetoric \u201Ctough on crime\u201D that we\u2019ve heard a number of National Party members talk about. Apparently, increasing a penalty from two years to five years is them being absolutely tough on crime and stamping down on crime. Frankly, I find that a little bit insulting for two reasons\u2014for many reasons, but I\u2019ll go into two. One is that recent evidence has it that Mount Wellington, which is in the Maungakiekie electorate where I\u2019m based, is the burglary capital of New Zealand. The Indian communities, where I do a lot of work, and a number of members which I have engagement with are often at the forefront of crime by virtue of the fact that they own dairies and work in small businesses that are targeted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EFrankly, I think that wasting the House\u2019s time and the Justice Committee\u2019s time with this bill, which is in essence about one and a half sentences long, is a travesty, because there\u2019s so much more that needs to be addressed, and this will not do it. It will not keep our communities safer. New Zealand taxpayers collectively pay over $110,000 to house a prisoner for one year. If this bill were to pass into law, the additional three years\u2019 imprisonment that it proposes will actually add $330,000 to the public bill per offender. I want people who may be watching this to let that sink in a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard that rhetoric of the Opposition members being tough on crime. We\u2019ve heard the narrative that they are sound economic managers, but does this sound like good economic management to anybody? It doesn\u2019t to me, definitely. Prisons have been referred to as being extremely expensive training grounds for further offending. There was a recent report by Sir Peter Gluckman that said this. It also said that increasing the length of sentences can increase the likelihood that an offender will reoffend and, potentially, to a greater degree. So not only is this unsound economic management but it is actually not going to work either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWhat actually works much better\u2014and there\u2019s extensive research on this\u2014than increasing sentences and tougher sentences is the likelihood of offenders being caught, which is why this Government is focusing on measures like increasing the police force by 1,800, with a strong focus, which was talked about, on community policing. It\u2019s not that we\u2019re not tough on crime\u2014that\u2019s actually just scaremongering. It\u2019s that we want to do what works. We want to do what actually keeps our communities safe, holds offenders to account, and provides victims with protection. We don\u2019t just want to stand here and do what sounds popular, what potentially makes a few of us feel better\u2014that\u2019s not what we are here for\u2014but that\u2019s exactly what this bill will do. It\u2019s not going to achieve what it sets out to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe other way to look at this bill, or the purpose of this bill, would be to see perhaps whether it addresses the fact that there is a crime wave and that there are a number of people out there busily running around providing explosives. We\u2019ve heard that from a number of members who\u2019ve spoken previously this evening, but that\u2019s just not true. In the last, I think it was, at least 11 years, if not longer, we\u2019ve only seen three people who have fallen into that category, basically. That doesn\u2019t sound to me like it\u2019s a massive area that we should be focusing so much time and energy on. So the second assumption fails, as well. There isn\u2019t a massive crime wave of people providing explosives, where we absolutely have to increase the penalty from two years to five years. That falls flat, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ENow, the third assumption posed by this bill is that it needs to be somehow brought in line with other similar legislation and that there\u2019s some sort of an inconsistency in the law that needs to be fixed by the tweak that\u2019s proposed by this bill. Now, section 272 of the principal Act, the Crimes Act, contains an intent element. I think this is the crux of Mr Scott\u2019s speech on this\u2014that section 272 contains an intent element. Now, there are two other sections that deal with similar offences and so on: section 202A of the Crimes Act and section 51 of the Arms Act. But I think the point that Mr Scott was making was that the increase in penalty would fall in line with those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EBut there are a few different issues with that way of thinking, or tweaking one piece of legislation, and not looking at how it fits with the entirety of the legislation that we have. The Ministry of Justice has come out and said that it is difficult to make direct comparisons between offences that have different objectives, that have different essential elements, and that have different burdens of proof that are involved as well, and different penalty levels. And I\u2019ll go into that a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThere are justifications. Justice officials have come to the select committee, and at this juncture, I\u2019ll just mention that it was great to be part of the select committee that considered this bill. So we heard from justice officials on this. There are justifications for those other sections to have higher penalties\u2014for example, section 202A of the Crimes Act. The first limb of that, basically, is that it poses a much higher severity of harm to people. It\u2019s about offensive weapons and it includes explosives as well, and it\u2019s about those explosives being in a public place\u2014so, potentially, more people are harmed by that. It also talks about people who have no legal authority or reasonable excuse for having that, which is absent from section 272, which is what we are discussing today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWhat that really means is that increasing the penalty in section 272 from two years to five years would potentially mean that someone who has a legitimate reason for carrying that explosive\u2014perhaps they work as a courier, perhaps they work in a mine; they have a legitimate reason for having that\u2014could actually be penalised by this and potentially even more so if it was increased from two years to five years. Section 202A(4)(b) of the Crimes Act requires evidence of prima facie \u201Cintention to use [the offensive weapon] to commit an offence involving bodily injury or the threat or fear of violence.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EActually, one of the main points that justice officials have made is that you can\u2019t really tweak one bit of legislation without looking at the implications on other pieces of legislation. I\u2019m just going to read this portion of the Ministry of Justice report, because I think it lays it out quite well\u2014it gives a really good example of what they mean when they say that: \u201CAn attempt to commit an offence generally carries not more than half the maximum penalty for the completed offence\u201D, and I think that makes logical sense. So if you actually do something, that\u2019s one thing. If you have the intent to do something but you haven\u2019t actually done it, then the penalty under the law is half\u2014seems fair to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EBy way of example of the point that they were trying to make, section 54(2) of the Arms Act provides a maximum penalty of five years\u2019 imprisonment for committing certain offences while in possession of an explosive. If the person attempts to commit that offence while in possession of an explosive but fails, the maximum penalty that person could face under section 311 of the Crimes Act would be 2\u00BD years of imprisonment. So that\u2019s half of the five years that they would have got if they\u2019d actually gone through with that. Section 272 deals with the conduct that may not be sufficient to create criminal liability for an attempt. In relation to the previous example, it would be perverse if the penalty under section 272 was actually double, and so I cannot support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022516394b437a24e0483862eade2ce4a69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022516394b437a24e0483862eade2ce4a69\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise to take a call on the Crimes (Increased Penalty for Providing Explosive to Commit Crime) Amendment Bill. It seems to me that it\u2019s worth starting with a constitutional nicety, if I may. There\u2019s been some talk on the other side of the House about Parliament increasing penalties for people who commit the acts to which this bill will apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn fact, of course, it is the judiciary, the judges themselves, who will apply the penalty in any given case. So it\u2019s worth noting that as a Parliament what we will be doing, if this law is to pass, is not in fact to increase the penalties, but the maximum penalties. Therefore, what we are doing in fact is providing a greater range, and we are increasing the discretion available to the judge in her or his discretion in any given situation. So to me, that\u2019s the first point to be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThen we come to the point that it is true, however, to say that a piece of legislation of this nature does send a signal\u2014or a message, is the language that is sometimes used\u2014to people who might be contemplating offences or who have indeed carried out such offences. That signal is important, to have consistency with other equivalent legislation, and certain sections of the Arms Act have been discussed by this House on both sides already, so I don\u2019t intend to traverse that ground further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn absolute terms, however, I do think it\u2019s important to note that the excellent member\u2019s bill by my colleague Alastair Scott includes an understanding that explosives are, by their nature, somewhat indiscriminate in their effect, so their effect in legal terms, by way of punishment for those who dabble in them, should also be not insignificant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI also wanted to make a point regarding the purpose of this legislation. It seems to me that the parties opposite have focused rather narrowly on the deterrence aspect of our criminal justice system, in somewhat sarcastic terms at times. But, of course, punishment and also prevention are also valid objectives of our criminal justice system and, indeed, this bill\u2014namely, that if a maximum penalty of five years as opposed to two, for example, is exercised, then that\u2019s a three-year period for which the community can feel safe against those who would knowingly supply explosives to people who would use those to harm others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, for those reasons, it seems to me this bill is very worthy of support, and I am very pleased to do so, along with other members of my party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aa762bc98a434fdfa0161109292caa36\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Crimes (Increased Penalty for Providing Explosive to Commit Crime) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b306c6b05d3c4ae888d3d29a4637e6e9\u0022\u003ESocial Security (Stopping Benefit Payments for Offenders who Repeatedly Fail to Comply with Community Sentences) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ae8fd95b18b4fb3813c3c9353394c38\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022 data-id=\u00228c5e3c7b3e9d4d25ac5a8e6322b6acb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c5e3c7b3e9d4d25ac5a8e6322b6acb0\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Social Security (Stopping Benefit Payments for Offenders who Repeatedly Fail to Comply with Community Sentences) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s quite amazing, the debate we\u2019ve heard over the five months or so of this new Government\u2014a lot of talk about reducing the prison population. They\u2019re actually wanting to clean criminals out, and that\u2019s fine. They\u2019re saying they want a target of 30 percent reduction of imprisoned offenders, which is also remarkable because about 75 percent are violent criminals. So, if they meet their number, they\u2019re going to have to release some violent criminals into New Zealand society, but that\u2019s a matter for another day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EAs it relates to this bill, it\u2019s actually quite interesting, because if they claim that they want to reduce the prison population, this bill is a measure that helps to do just that. It does that because it offers an alternative to that harsher sentence for offenders serving a community sentence who fail to comply with the terms of their sentence. And, yet, all the rhetoric we heard from them on the select committee and the report indicate quite strongly that they will not be supporting this bill in its second reading. That\u2019s an absolute shame, because it actually shows that, while they claim to have this goal of reducing reoffending, they\u2019ll always let their ideology get in the way of what could, otherwise, be seen as something of a laudable goal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EThe reality for these sentences, these community sentences, if we consider why they exist, is that, in some instances, it\u2019s because of lower level offending. But, in many others, it\u2019s as an alternative to more onerous fines that offenders might find and struggle to deal with\u2014or, indeed, as an alternative to some level of incarceration. In so doing, in providing these sentences, offenders are actually given an opportunity to atone for whatever their crime may have been in a manner and in a form that has less stigma attached to it and, indeed, actually permits them to have some more of their family life and contact, which they would lose out on if they were, instead, in prison. But with that comes obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EThe public expect, as does the Government, and our corrections department, that people who are sentenced to such sentences\u2014community service\u2014will turn up and will complete their duties. So if people are not going to comply with those sentences, the public have an expectation that they be treated accordingly. This bill, instead of a regime which has been shown to be more likely to see offenders who repeatedly fail to turn up to their community service more likely now to see them heading towards jail, would have offered, and would still offer, if people would vote for it, a short, sharp correction that gives a strong incentive for that person to re-comply with their sentence, with their service. It was a simple matter of \u201CIf you fail to comply several times, you\u2019ll get a warning. You\u2019ll get a benefit docked if you happen to be a receiver of a main benefit.\u201D And that gives you some incentive to re-comply with your sentence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003ENow, as the bill was initially introduced, it was a blunt yet effective instrument. It allowed for three warnings, and if you\u2019d failed to comply after three warnings, bang, your benefit could be cut. But it didn\u2019t allow, for instance, for the right of appeal on the basis of process or of fact. So I would like to acknowledge and commend the officials in the select committee process, who looked at it and felt that it had some issues of manageability, workability, and, potentially, some issues, in their consideration, of elements of natural justice. The officials said, and recommended, as the bill has been returned, or should have been returned on that basis, that what they could do instead is to allow an appeal right on process. So if the process was not followed properly, the offender could appeal and have, potentially, their benefit cut forestalled or removed. But it also allowed, in a balanced sense, for the offender not to have to fail to comply so many times before the department could look to issue that warning and invoke that cut to the benefit payment. So the bill, in the work that they did, would have come back to this House in a better shape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EThat actually is the job of select committees, and when select committees do it well, the Parliament then gets to consider, in the second reading, a bill that is in better shape. It would have been a bill to see back here and, hopefully, to have seen pass through its stages\u2014although it\u2019s pretty clear that that members opposite are not going to support it. Yet that flies in the face of the substance of the data that was presented by submitters\u2014not necessarily their views, because submitters were, fundamentally, mostly opposed, but the data in it was really quite interesting. You see, the reality is that, over the years, more and more people who fail to comply with their community services are ending up in jail. Is that really what we want? Is that really what we want? Does it help to reduce our prison population? It certainly doesn\u2019t. Is it better for that offender if they\u2019re then in an environment which not only provides greater stigma for them but actually helps them in their schooling in the art of criminal offending, or so we\u2019re told? It isn\u2019t a good outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EIn 2004, 774 persons were imprisoned for offences against justice, which includes non-compliance for community services. In 2014, that number had grown to 1,307\u2014that\u2019s a 68 percent increase. Now, we don\u2019t have the numbers for exactly how many of those were failing to comply with community service, but the submitter was very clear that the numbers had increased.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a556af5066774aa3955026007f249637\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got them\u2014I\u2019ve got them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257885980af2c43c3b878106939b96b7f\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON\u003C/span\u003E: And, look, I\u2019ll take Kim Workman\u2019s expertise in this area over Mr Ball\u2019s any day of the week. In fact, by November 2015, Mr Workman submitted, in support of his evidence, that only 36 percent of offenders nationally were turning up to comply with their community service sentences. So the problem has been growing, the lack of compliance has been growing, and more and more often, those who do not comply are heading towards, and into, jail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EMr Workman did also make a point that, as the growth has been there in failing to comply, failing to turn up to these community service responsibilities, he felt that the Department of Corrections wasn\u2019t doing enough to manage people\u2019s attendance. That\u2019s a reasonable point for a person to hold, but I\u2019d reinforce this point, particularly for the people of New Zealand, and indeed those people who have been sentenced: the obligation to turn up for community service is the obligation on the offender. If they do not turn up repeatedly, it\u2019s not the fault of the Department of Corrections; it\u2019s their fault for not complying with the sentence which was initially handed down in lieu of either a harsh fine or a bit of jail time. They have an obligation. They should be discharging it. They don\u2019t need the Department of Corrections to mother them or to parent them into fulfilling their obligations in the sentence for the crime that they\u2019ve committed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll tell you what happens then. What happens, as Mr Workman pointed out, is that because the offenders, of their own cognisance, fail to turn up repeatedly, when they get in front of a court for their failure to comply, his view is that the judge is left with little alternative but to lock them up. This bill would have given an alternative, and could still if members opposite would see sense. It could give an alternative to help provide an incentive for offenders to comply with that sentence\u2014a sentence that is better for them and better for the community than jail time. If only they would indeed do so, and if the members would support it, they might actually go a small way\u2014a small but significant way\u2014to meeting their supposed goal of reducing the prison population. So, really, it will be over to them. If they truly believe in that goal, here\u2019s an opportunity to take a small, measurable, but significant step in helping to achieve that goal. If they don\u2019t vote for it, they\u2019re voting for more people on community service today to be in jail tomorrow, and that should be on their consciences. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022875f20af12c54307a2093336445424b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022875f20af12c54307a2093336445424b4\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Associate Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Assistant Speaker. Thank you for this opportunity. Well, that\u2019s confirmed everything I believe of the former regime, and what that is is turning a public service and a safety net, such as the Ministry of Social Development (MSD), into a tool for punishing beneficiaries, for punishing some of our most vulnerable people in this country. When somebody goes into the Ministry of Social Development they have to form a trust, because, let\u2019s face it, not many of them want to be there. In fact, if they had a choice, they wouldn\u2019t go there, but they go there because they need the safety net. So they go in there. They create a bond of trust with their case manager\u2014a bond of trust with their case manager. And then when corrections come in, without even fully understanding all of the complicated matters in this particular person\u2019s life, they sever that lifeline. They take away that security net. They punish them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOnce again, this is what I continue to talk about with Wh\u0101nau Ora: look at the family and not just the individual. Because you\u2019re not punishing just the individual; you are punishing the family. Children miss out. Loved ones miss out. Why? Because they are being punished. What we should be focusing on is how we support these people better to make sure that they are able to fulfil their community sentence, where they are able to meet their obligations with the Ministry of Social Development and any other benefit that they might be receiving from the Ministry of Social Development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAs a former case manager, I can tell that side of the House, actually, you do that with trust. You do that with a bit of faith that actually people are wanting to do better for themselves. A proper relationship with a case manager, whether they be from the Ministry of Social Development or in fact the parole officer, or whoever it might be with the Department of Corrections\u2014a more meaningful relationship actually will serve that person and the community better in the long run. I have no doubt about that\u2014no doubt about that. We should be allowing these people actually to fulfil their sentences not by punishing them or beating them or scaring them. Actually, we should be supporting them\u2014supporting them\u2014making sure that they have the tools to fulfil that sentence and also to meet their obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI mentioned the impact on families. I know that many of the submitters didn\u2019t support this bill, and we know that quite a number of them actually highlighted the fact that it has unintended consequences that impact significantly on children. So we\u2019re saying now with this particular bill that the member\u2019s promoted forward into the House, that we\u2019re going to be punishing those children. We know how hard it is for many of the families out there, particularly in my electorate, in T\u0101maki Makaurau, but I have no doubt that in many electorates across the country families are struggling out there. This is just another one of those tools to beat families into submission, to actually force many family members, including those who are penalised through this particular bill, to actually go out and commit more crime, to be able to make sure that they can provide for their families. The data is out there, that many who find themselves in these situations and in times of hardship have gone to the Ministry of Social Development or have sought assistance, and in the end have actually resorted to crime to make sure that their family or the individual themselves actually have what they need. Here is yet another tool to punish people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI accept that where there is continual failure to comply, sure, we need to start looking at this a lot more closely, but I don\u2019t believe that it\u2019s actually in the form of punishment or punitive measures. I actually think it\u2019s more about making sure that we support these people more holistically, making sure that they\u2019re able to meet their obligations. It\u2019s nothing new. Wh\u0101nau Ora talk about it\u2014a wh\u0101nau-centred approach, a holistic approach, to make sure that we have a good hard look at why these people aren\u2019t meeting their obligations and we deal with those issues. We don\u2019t simply punish them because of failure to comply. Sure, once again, I admit if there\u2019s continual non-compliance, then we have got an issue. But instead of going in, making sure that they actually have the support to achieve their community sentence prior to the warnings\u2014by all means that\u2019s what we should be doing. That\u2019s exactly what we should be doing. What we\u2019re actually requiring, what we\u2019re asking now of our officials who deal with these matters in both corrections and the Ministry of Social Development, is actually that they take a more human approach to it. I talked about bonds of trust, whether you\u2019re in the Department of Corrections or, of course, the Ministry of Social Development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThat raises another question, actually: the capacity to enforce. It\u2019s quite simple to say that the Department of Corrections can go in and instruct the Ministry of Social Development to do this and it will be done, and we\u2019ll all go home happy, and the person who is continually non-compliant will be punished. It\u2019s actually not as simple as that\u2014it\u2019s not as simple as that. As a former case manager and a former service centre manager and a former manager in Work and Income in the Ministry of Social Development, it isn\u2019t as easy as that. It\u2019s not as simple as going [Clicks fingers]; gone. It\u2019s not like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe know that there are steps in this bill to make sure that the person is compliant. Well, in an ideal world, and as we read it in this legislation, that might be the case but actually in an MSD and a Department of Corrections that are currently under the pump, under-resourced, understaffed, feeling the pressure of an explosion in prisoner numbers, and an explosion in the need for their services and the safety net that\u2019s provided to them, these people are struggling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201e0024260ca425d8f9b983145866bc0\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Your problem now, Peeni.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e69dad59f646b49946162e6291680e\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: It is in fact the challenge in front of this Government to fix that. Why? Because, as the member across on the other side just said, it\u2019s now our problem. He acknowledges that they actually created it, and now we\u2019re stuck with it\u2014now we\u2019re stuck with it. So our job then is to make sure that those people get the support they need to actually be meaningful contributors in our communities. So I\u2019m disappointed. I\u2019m disappointed by this type of bill that comes to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAlso, the member who promoted the bill to the House tonight talked about stigma. I say to the member that actually having dealt with many of those people who have come through the doors of MSD and also, actually, in corrections too, in a former life, the stigma is just as big there, outside of the prison, as it is inside. The member tried to offer that only for those who go inside, of course, the stigma\u2019s bigger. Well, I\u2019d argue actually the stigma\u2019s just as big on the outside\u2014just as big on the outside\u2014and one of the problems with that is, of course, all that does is create more non-compliance. All that does is actually scare them into more non-compliance, not just for the individual but also for their associates and the family members that they associate with, and I\u2019m really concerned about that. Any kind of bill that forces more non-compliance by stigma and by discrimination, I think is a poor bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI just want to, in my final couple of minutes, talk about the discrimination. Many in this House know the numbers of M\u0101ori who enter into the justice system, know the number of M\u0101ori in prison, and know also the number of M\u0101ori who receive assistance through the Ministry of Social Development. We know, and the evidence suggests it, that discrimination by a mere fact of numbers of a particular ethnic group actually does exactly what I just talked about, about stigma\u2014stigma through discrimination\u2014and that\u2019s a real problem. It will disproportionately affect M\u0101ori people, it will disproportionately affect those in particular, I\u2019d argue, as a good member for T\u0101maki Makaurau, in urban settings who actually have some rather complex needs\u2014rather complex needs\u2014and we know that on this side of the House actually a more progressive-thinking bill to actually assist these people in fulfilling their sentences and supporting them in the way that we should be is something that would be considered by this side of the House and by the Government. But at the moment this particular bill does not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d encourage that side of the House to actually look into their hearts, stop using legislation and the tools at the dispense of Government to actually punish our people, and look at how we care for them better, look at how we make stronger communities, stronger families, and stronger individuals, because at the moment a bill like this doesn\u2019t do that. In fact, it punishes them and takes a punitive approach to what, essentially, is a human issue. So therefore, Madam Assistant Speaker, I say to you and to this House we will not be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022961756c17794494aa0f1265569098be4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022961756c17794494aa0f1265569098be4\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Assistant Speaker, I want to rise and stand in support of my colleague Brett Hudson and his member\u2019s bill, that is the Social Security (Stopping Benefit Payments for Offenders\u2014and I want to say, \u201Cwho Repeatedly Fail to Comply\u201D\u2014with Community Sentences) Amendment Bill. And for the member that has just resumed his seat, Peeni Henare, I think that is the key part that he seems to conveniently have forgotten.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EIn the bill immediately preceding this, one of the other Labour members talked about the fact there is an expectation that offenders are held to account for their crimes. So this bill is not a bill about suitable sentences; this is about dealing with those who have been sentenced by the court and who repeatedly\u2014repeatedly\u2014fail to comply with the community sentence. So the speaker that just spoke before me completely missed the point in terms of what this bill is, and I want to provide a bit of context for this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ENew Zealand actually uses community sentences more than most other jurisdictions around the world, and members opposite should be pleased about that fact because it is before incarceration. It\u2019s an important step and, as Brett Hudson very clearly stated in his speech, one of the ramifications for people not being supported to comply with their sentences\u2014one of the ramifications is that they could end up being incarcerated. I would have thought that side of the House wants to avoid that. I\u2019m really hoping\u2014and the New Zealand First member Darroch Ball is shaking his head. I was shocked that New Zealand First didn\u2019t support this bill, really shocked because I thought New Zealand First were a party that supported the delivery of law and order. The delivery of law and order is offenders being held to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bcfc84623f04d3f85e26bba74648c73\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. They should be going back to court. Why are you giving them an extra cushion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f6993310ded4a808eed3190e3e03e17\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: So the New Zealand First member would like to see more of these people that are on community sentences currently going back to court and going to prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f0f9f9003af443e8f61b935b0d8512c\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: Recidivist offenders. You can\u2019t have it both ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3efbf192e9e461f8a258d5248790432\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, I disagree with you and I want to talk\u2014the community probation staff of the Department of Corrections do an extraordinary role with these offenders. I do agree with the speaker before me; some of them have quite complex issues, and community corrections do an extraordinary job with these offenders. There are 27,000 offenders a year on some form of community sentence, right. So for those people they want to support them in complying with their sentence so that the sentence is done and dusted and they are never seen again. That is the intent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, there are some people who are frequent flyers who do not comply with the obligations that are set down by the court and that taxpayers expect the offenders to deliver. That\u2019s the guts of this bill and the opposition seem to have completely lost the point. These are people that have been sentenced. These are about ensuring that people who are sentenced fulfil their obligations, comply with their sentences. And when the officials were before us, they said it\u2019s a tool in their tool box\u2014they don\u2019t have to use it, and, in many cases, they wouldn\u2019t use it, particularly if there are children in the household\u2014and, again, that point seems to have escaped the Government member who spoke before me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis is about ensuring that offenders who have committed crimes of a variety of natures are stopped in their tracks and we stop them and get them out of the justice system instead of progressing them through. As my colleague said, 1,300 offences against justice. We want to keep them out of prison. It\u2019s interesting some of the other comments that have been made by the other side in this debate, and the one prior about rehabilitation. Well, if the Government was serious about rehabilitation, in the first corrections bill they introduced into this House they would not have scrapped the requirement for rehabilitation in that bill. It\u2019s outrageous that it was scrapped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ead50f03b3b4630a7d10b48c957146c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It was rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2c958ee27cc4736895442c7eb26c63b\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I was in charge of it at the time; I know it was in there. I\u2019m shocked that a Government that proposes to be trying to reduce the prison population would scrap the one thing that makes an enormous difference\u2014yes, to the lives of people who have challenges. They don\u2019t care. They\u2019re going to go back on what they did in their nine years where the prison population increased at a faster rate than the last nine years and they want to lock them up and throw away the key. This is the tool they could use to stop people getting into prison and they\u2019re not going take it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a46281336286401f84458681bbda55c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a46281336286401f84458681bbda55c1\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E Any student of history will remember Dresden. That was a time when the Allies bombed a non-strategic city, a city that had no munitions factories, and they did it for one reason: they wanted to warn the Russians of how tough they were, of what the possible complications on the Russians were if they didn\u2019t comply. Well, it didn\u2019t work. History shows it didn\u2019t work. So what it shows, in coming back to this bill, is that anything we do around crime, any legislation we bring in, we\u2019ve got to know what we are trying to achieve with it. What we are trying to achieve in all Crimes Act amendment bills or whatever bill we bring in has got to be about reducing crime. It\u2019s got to be about making society a safer place. And when I look at this bill, it simply fails that test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EWhat experience has shown\u2014and one of the previous speakers from our side mentioned about proximity to offending, and how we actually influence and affect offenders is by ensuring that the punishment, or whatever we call it, is actually proximate to the offending. Attempting to punish offenders in this manner will simply not be relevant in what we are trying to achieve here in trying to reduce crime. It\u2019s quite interesting, when I was reading through the submissions, even the Sensible Sentencing Trust, I see, were actually opposed to this bill, which gives some indication of just how effective it may well be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EI\u2019m personally not saying we don\u2019t punish these people, and the previous speaker, Louise Upston, talked about how we need to make sure that people are punished. What I\u2019m saying is that this will not do it. In fact, what we are trying to achieve here is that the punishment that we are trying to achieve on people\u2014that will just simply not do it. It will not achieve what we\u2019re setting out to do. Also, because the very people we are setting out to punish\u2014as in the example I used at the beginning around Dresden\u2014the very thing we set out to try and achieve, it will not simply achieve it, because when we actually impose this, we\u2019re actually going to be imposing it on those around the person we\u2019re trying to punish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246f45e01211f4270a4ea445746398964\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to resume my presentation on this bill. Let me resume by saying I do believe there should be a consequence for those who don\u2019t comply. You may remember I did use the analogy of ensuring that when we send a message, we\u2019re sending it to the right place, and I repeat my Dresden analogy, where the Allies attempted to send a message to the Russians at the expense of many thousands of innocent lives. So, again, I am stipulating it\u2019s important to get your message right, to signal right, and to make sure you\u2019re targeting the right area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EI fear that, quite frankly, this legislation does not target the right area. For a start, it\u2019s patently unfair because only the beneficiaries will be targeted by this. If you look at the report, it shows that the majority of people who don\u2019t adhere to their community-based sentences or comply with their community-based sentences are actually people who are not on benefits, so we\u2019re actually looking at a piece of legislation here that is actually just going to target a small proportion of those who actually don\u2019t comply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBut, more importantly, I look at those who we\u2019re actually going to punish with this one as well, because, again, my experience is that those who end up on community work are those who often don\u2019t live, shall we say, lives where the sort of normal sanctions that we might apply to those who have a relatively, dare I say, normal life will actually apply. They\u2019re people that, whether we like it or not, are not going to give up their cigarettes\u2014those that smoke. They won\u2019t give up their drugs. What they will give up is paying those around them who will often be supplying the food, supplying the necessities of life, and even those who they supply the necessities of life to\u2014for many of these people, in fact, their benefit will actually be their fixed costs, and much of what they live on is what they\u2019ve managed to eke a living out of, often criminally. It\u2019s the very reason they ended up on community work in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo, going back to what I said originally, we\u2019ve got to be careful what we want to achieve with any legislation around crime. We\u2019ve got to ensure that we actually reduce crime and don\u2019t inadvertently increase it. What I very much fear with this piece of legislation is that we will actually end up increasing crime, because those people will\u2014and you may say it will be petty crime. Well, the people who actually lose out from petty crime most are those who can least afford to lose out from petty crime. Often, it\u2019s the neighbours of those people, often in the lower socio-economic areas, who don\u2019t have insurance and who don\u2019t have the ability to actually even replace what they lose, and they are the people who actually lose most. So, again, we have to be very careful where we target legislation like this. I think it will almost invariably result in an increase in crime, which is one reason why I am opposed to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EI also mentioned before\u2014around proximity. My experience is that when we\u2019re dealing with people\u2014particularly at the lower end, who are the people who are likely to not comply, for any number of reasons here\u2014is that when we do seek to impose some sort of sanction on them, it\u2019s incredibly important that they understand the sanction. A financial one like this will take some time. If it actually does bring about or give them some cause for regret or cause for second thinking about their actions, it actually won\u2019t be related to the act that they actually did or didn\u2019t do. It won\u2019t be related to the act of not complying with their community work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s important to actually look at what those community work provisions are, as well. It\u2019s community work, which requires an offender to do a specified number of hours of unpaid work in the community for non-profit organisations; supervision, which requires an offender to take specified rehabilitative programmes to address the cause of their offending; community detention, which requires an offender to remain in an approved residence during certain time periods; and intensive supervision, which requires an offender to take rehabilitative programmes to address the cause of their offending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo, again, the proximity between a financial penalty which would be imposed on them and, as I said before, mostly those around them\u2014it won\u2019t actually have an effect on their behaviour. So when we do seek to impose the sanction\u2014again, as I said, I think there should be a sanction on this\u2014we\u2019ve got to make sure that it\u2019s something that is going to work best for the whole of society. That\u2019s where we come back to\u2014we cannot impose something that is very much piecemeal and that by itself will simply end up in an increase in crime. That will mean more people either on the community work or more people who, if not on community work, are actually in prison\u2014that very thing we need to address.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m always a little suspicious of and often opposed to this type of legislation, which starts as a good idea, and probably those that conceived it did so with the right ideas. But when it\u2019s taken in full, and when we work out how it will affect not just those who are going to be financially punished, if they are beneficiaries\u2014less than half of the people who don\u2019t comply. If we\u2019re only going to apply this sanction to those people, then, quite frankly, it will simply not work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo while, again, I think those who conceived this\u2014and I think this legislation has been through several sets of hands before it arrived at this stage\u2014I think I\u2019d invite them to sit back and have a look and see just what it is they want to achieve. If it\u2019s about making this country safer\u2014I\u2019ve heard claims across the House of being tough on crime. I mean, so many of the tough on crime measures actually don\u2019t end up doing what they\u2019re intended to do. I personally am a great believer in \u201CA belief you will get caught is the greatest deterrent to crime\u201D. We need only look at our own driving behaviour for that. So I oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022 data-id=\u002200e99cf376d246b9818a5eafffee77f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200e99cf376d246b9818a5eafffee77f8\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I honestly don\u2019t know where to begin with the number of reasons why New Zealand First, and, I know, the rest of the Government, will be opposing this bill. I think\u2014I truly believe\u2014that I\u2019m going to be running out of time before I get to complete my speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to start with a couple of things that Mr Hudson said\u2014ridiculous in the extreme\u2014and the worst part about it was it\u2019s quite clear that he didn\u2019t even read his own bill. I\u2019ll give him a little bit of a break, because it\u2019s not really his bill\u2014it was Mark Mitchell\u2019s bill\u2014but he stood up in his first speech and he said that \u201CThe public expect that those who are given community services turn up.\u201D, which is fair enough, I guess. Then, in the same breath, he said that \u201CThe public\u2019s expectation, the consequences that they don\u2019t.\u201D Now, if that\u2019s true, why oh why is National promoting two separate pathways, or two separate consequences, for whether you\u2019re a beneficiary or a non-beneficiary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EIf it\u2019s all about ensuring that the Government who\u2019s in charge at the time holds the people who are on community service to account\u2014not just the beneficiaries, because that\u2019s what Mr Brett Hudson said\u2014then why are there two separate pathways? That\u2019s the question that that member needs to answer. The second thing he said\u2014oh, and this is a good one\u2014was \u201CThe origins of community service were because it was an alternative to a harsh fine that the offender couldn\u2019t afford.\u201D It\u2019s an alternative to a harsh fine that an offender couldn\u2019t afford. So what is this legislation doing? Going to the beneficiaries, who can\u2019t really afford it in the first place, and pretty much fining them\u2014cutting them by up to 50 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EIf that\u2019s not a flip-flop, and I\u2019d like to say some other words, but if that\u2019s not a flip-flop I don\u2019t know what is. This is a member who is the author of this bill, or he was the guardian of this bill, who was supposed to be standing up in the first reading or the second reading, after he wanted it so badly to go through the select committee, and he has absolutely spoken against it. He\u2019s given evidence about reasons why they should be voting against it. The last thing he said\u2014well, not the last thing but one of the last things I want to talk to him about was\u2014the problem has been growing, those who don\u2019t comply has been growing. Who\u2019s been in Government for the last decade? First of all, who\u2019s been in Government for the last decade? That\u2019s been National. Who\u2019s been in control for the last decade? National. Who has had the chance for the last decade to put this bill in if it was such a great idea?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022def68247e8fb47ffab9b63d574e600f9\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Those guys.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e437788d1ab43e4bcc3bd94a5edd4c3\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: Them. Why didn\u2019t they do it? Why didn\u2019t they do it? Look, this is a nonsensical bill. It\u2019s not about tough on crime. It\u2019s not about soft on crime. To be fair, if you listen to the speeches, and I\u2019m sure the speeches for the rest of the night from the National Party but definitely the ones prior to this, they\u2019re caught in a sort of no man\u2019s land. You can tell they want so desperately to say this is being tough on crime\u2014tough on crime\u2014but it\u2019s just not. It simply is not. It\u2019s just ridiculous in the extreme. The National Party knows that this will cause\u2014just like the Labour Party member who just spoke said\u2014more crime in the end, and they know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got some evidence to show why the National Party didn\u2019t want this bill to go through. They didn\u2019t actually want this bill to go through even though they had every ample opportunity to as a Government. Here\u2019s the time line for this bill. So the first reading was in August 2016. The first reading, when National was in Government, when this got pulled out of the ballot, was August 2016. It was referred to the committee on 10 August 2016, and the closing of submissions was 20 September 2016. So the member, when it was pulled out of the ballot, had two years to convince the Ministers of Justice and of Corrections, and the Minister for Social Development to put it in his Government\u2019s bill. You\u2019ve got to ask why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EI went back and had a look at the minutes from the\u2014no, not the minutes; the letters that the Social Services Committee sent, and Alfred Ngaro knows this because he signed it\u2014well, one of them, anyway. The letter asked for an extension to the Speaker at the time Rt Hon David Carter\u2014that\u2019s how old it is, the Speaker was the Rt Hon David Carter\u2014\u201CIt is due to be reported to the House by Friday, 10 February 2017.\u201D This bill was due to be reported to this House in February 2017. They want an extension on 30 November 2016, right. Another letter: \u201CIt is due to be reported to the House by Thursday, 13 April; now we want it to be extended to Monday, 8 May 2017.\u201D Then another letter, and this one\u2019s signed by Joanne Hayes because by that time she was the chair and Alfred Ngaro had then moved on to become a Minister, that\u2019s how long ago it was. \u201CIt was referred to us on 10 August 2016. We have made substantial progress in our consideration of the bill.\u201D\u2014yes, we did, because everyone knew that we didn\u2019t want this bill going through, including the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EThey wanted to push this through to 25 October 2017, after the election\u2014after the election. It was quite clear to everybody sitting in that select committee that the National Party did not want the report to come back here to be debated, because they knew that it was a rubbish bill. They knew it\u2014they knew it. So now here we are\u2014April 2018\u201420 months since the first reading and 18 months since the first due date back here in the House. Now, if Alfred Ngaro wants to take a call I\u2019m sure he will try and explain that, when we didn\u2019t need to have those delays as a select committee, I\u2019ll be very interested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EIf anybody who is watching, and for that matter any of the National Party members, including and especially Brett Hudson, wants to know why no one should be supporting this bill, just have a look at the report of the Social Services and Community Committee of March 2018. You only have to read the first page. You don\u2019t really have to read all of it, because there\u2019s enough in the first page to justify why we shouldn\u2019t be supporting it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I\u2019d just like to point out that the first heading is \u201CReasons for recommending that the bill not proceed\u201D, and that goes on for one, two, three, four pages. Then it comes to \u201CReasons for recommending that the bill proceed\u201D, and it\u2019s two paragraphs\u2014if you can call them paragraphs, it\u2019s probably about two or three sentences really. First of all, some facts that Brett Hudson failed to mention: in 2015, there were 33,000 people who were required to complete a sentence of community work. Of these, 5 percent\u2014that\u2019s 1,500 people\u2014did not comply with their sentence. It says, \u201CCompliance rates were in fact higher for those receiving a benefit, at 77 percent, compared with 67 percent for those not receiving a benefit.\u201D If this was such a law and order issue, if this was such a piece of legislation that was supposedly ensuring the public\u2019s expectation of people on community work not breaching and turning up, then why are we ignoring the largest proportion of them\u2014the non-beneficiaries? What did the National Government do when they were in Government about them? Nothing. About nothing. Only 23 percent of those receiving a benefit\u2014so, 23 percent of the 5 percent\u2014were breaching.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259793fb4a57d43ba95501573d7e05b4b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Is that it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260999a080aab4ee4b41712b6c7f6e7e8\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: Twenty-three percent of 5 percent. Of the 33,000 people, we\u2019re talking about 300 people. Now, this doesn\u2019t go any deeper, this is 300 people here, but that doesn\u2019t talk about the highly recidivist offenders or breaches. So, the 300 could just be one breach. So if this bill is looking and trying to dig down in to the high recidivist people who breach community service, we could be talking about just dozens of people whom this bill is trying to target. They knew that. Brett Hudson knew that. The Ministers knew that. That\u2019s why they didn\u2019t put this through as a Government bill\u2014that\u2019s why it didn\u2019t go through as a Government bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EMadam Assistant Speaker, I told you that I was going to run out of time. I haven\u2019t even begun to get through it. I got through some of the main nonsensical facts and some of the things that Brett Hudson said. But New Zealand First will clearly not be supporting this bill\u2014not because it\u2019s not tough on crime, or because it\u2019s soft on crime, or because it\u2019s in-between; it\u2019s because it\u2019s nonsensical, because it will not work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u002216d3e3256e1a407fae9c3a07a4c500be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216d3e3256e1a407fae9c3a07a4c500be\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. The previous speaker started off his speech by saying that he doesn\u2019t know where to start. Well, he didn\u2019t even know where to finish, and he didn\u2019t even begin to talk about the bill itself. But what I would have to say about that member Darroch Ball, who\u2019s just sat down and who just made his speech\u2014I want to use an old Kiwi colloquialism that\u2019s actually in the Oxford Dictionary, and it says this. It\u2019s called sucking the kumara. \u201CSucking the kumara\u201D refers to the fact that when someone has failed\u2014and it\u2019s a terminology that\u2019s used that he\u2019s sucked the kumara\u2014he didn\u2019t keep his promises. He didn\u2019t actually achieve what he intended to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI would have to say that when New Zealand First stood up in the election campaign of 2017, here are the things that it talked about. In fact, if you go to Newshub of October 2017, they talked about the 16 different things\u2014and it relates to the bill that we\u2019re talking about now because one of them was about benefits\u2014that are different between New Zealand First and the Greens. One of them was about M\u0101ori seats. \u201CAbolish them.\u201D, is what New Zealand First said. Well, that didn\u2019t happen. The other one is around Wh\u0101nau Ora: \u201CGet rid of it.\u201D That hasn\u2019t happened. We just heard today there\u2019s going to be a review. The others were about mining, but in particular was actually No. 10, and here\u2019s what it said about benefits. Here\u2019s what the Greens said. Their manifesto said this: \u201CWe want to increase benefit payments by 20 percent and remove all sanctions and obligations for beneficiaries.\u201D But here\u2019s what New Zealand First said. Wait for it\u2014they said this: \u201CGreater scrutiny of the benefit system\u201D, and that\u2019s exactly what this bill is about. OK? At the heart of it, it\u2019s the scrutiny of the benefit system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s talk about this and see what this bill is actually all about. It\u2019s in the title, which says, \u201CSocial Security (Stopping Benefit Payments for Offenders who Repeatedly Fail to Comply\u201D. Now that surely is something that\u2019s part of the New Zealand First manifesto. It wants to scrutinise the benefit payments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EIn other words, these are people who are beneficiaries already who\u2019ve actually committed an offence. It could be everything from robbery. It could be all sorts. It could be male assaults female\u2014we don\u2019t know what it is, but they\u2019ve committed an offence. They\u2019ve gone into court\u2014I know Greg O\u2019Connor will know this\u2014and they\u2019ve been held to account, but the judge has mitigated the sentence. He\u2019s actually said to them, \u201CWe\u2019re going to give you a community sentence.\u201D A community sentence is where the offender can go back and can contribute to his community. It means that he has a certain number of hours that he has to comply with. It lessens the ability for them to go into incarceration\u2014to go into jail. That\u2019s what the sentence is actually all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re now talking about people who have offended. They\u2019ve gone to court. They\u2019ve been charged. They\u2019ve been convicted. They\u2019ve been sentenced. Now they\u2019re going into a situation where all they have to do is complete\u2014it could be 10, 20, 30, or could be even 100 hours. That\u2019s what they have to do. That\u2019s all that\u2019s being asked of them. When they don\u2019t comply, not once, not twice, or maybe not even three times\u2014now you have to say this, on the other side\u2014when do you get to the point where you have to hold people to account? When do you have to say to people, \u201CThere\u2019s been a lesser sentence. It\u2019s been mitigated.\u201D? And that\u2019s what this bill is actually talking about. It\u2019s saying this. What we\u2019re saying is this is one tool to incentivise compliance. That\u2019s what this bill is about. It means that corrections can use this as an ability to be able to incentivise that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s walk and talk the way through what this bill actually is telling us and what is trying to be achieved in being able to implement this bill. Speakers on the other side have said it\u2019s being mean-spirited, it\u2019s cold-hearted, and it\u2019s not actually caring for those that are in need. Again, we\u2019re talking about people who don\u2019t comply. So here\u2019s the process. With the relationship with the corrections officer, the probation officer who\u2019s working with them, or it could even be a social worker\u2014after 30 days, they cannot apply a written notice but they will apply one written notice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo, say the offender hasn\u2019t turned up. They\u2019re meant to be doing some gardening, or meant to be out there, maybe at the local school, maybe in a park, to help beautify a community, and they didn\u2019t comply with that. They\u2019ll be contacted. They\u2019ll be talked to and asked for the reasons why. If there is no valid reason for that, then there will be one written warning. Now, it\u2019s another 14 days afterwards in which they can then also apply a second warning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s talk about this. Fourteen days\u2014the ability to be able to go again, to comply with the sentence they\u2019ve been given. It\u2019s a community sentence. It may be gardening, or it may be weeding. But what it means is the opportunity for that person, who\u2019s receiving, by the way, a taxpayer-funded benefit to help support them and their family and their wh\u0101nau\u2014all they need to do is comply with that. Again, it could be gardening, or it could be weeding. But if they don\u2019t comply for a second time, they get a second warning, right. A second warning. Then, after that, another 14 days has to lapse before corrections will then contact them or talk to them and say, \u201CLook, it\u2019s been over two weeks, three weeks, and there\u2019s been non-compliance. You haven\u2019t turned up. If you do not, there will be some serious consequences.\u201D That\u2019s what this bill is asking of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo, tell me, where\u2019s the hardship? Where\u2019s the cold-heartedness in this? It\u2019s actually ensuring that we are walking through, with offenders, to make sure that they comply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the other point that this bill is trying to achieve. It\u2019s accountability with discretion. This is not cold-hearted. This is not mean-spirited. It\u2019s trying to make sure they complete it, because the sooner they complete the sentence, the sooner they can get on with their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the other alternative, where this bill is trying to mediate this and give another opportunity and an alternative to going back into court, going back into the system, and potentially going back into prison. It\u2019s saying to them, \u201CIf you comply, and if you do the things that you\u2019ve been asked to do simply to uphold the sentence that you\u2019ve been given, then you will just continue and finish your sentence.\u201D End of story\u2014there\u2019s nothing else to be done. Now, where\u2019s the cold-heartedness in this? I would say that the people outside, that are inside of New Zealand, would say, \u201CActually, that\u2019s OK. That\u2019s accounted for.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EMr Darroch Ball talked about the numbers. In actual fact, it\u2019s around about 27,900 offenders that have a community-based sentence. Out of that, when you talk about splitting the percentages, it works out at about 1,600 who breach their compliance with the sentence that they\u2019ve been given, and those are beneficiaries. So we\u2019d say this: out of the 1,600 that are beneficiaries, it\u2019s not untold to be able to hold them to account. Again, there\u2019s a process that has discretion to it, to allow them to get to a point. All they simply need to do is to comply and finish off the sentence. I would have to say that that\u2019s what this bill is trying to do. That\u2019s the intent of the bill. There\u2019s accountability with discretion, and that\u2019s inside of that. And for 1,600 breaches, I believe that, actually, it\u2019s a bill that\u2019s worth considering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI am surprised that New Zealand First have sucked the kumara on this. They\u2019ve gone along and, next thing, it will be an increase of 20 percent in benefits. They\u2019re removing the sanctions and the obligations that have been proved to make a difference. The fact is that those who have been found in breach of benefit fraud\u2014so there are around about 89,000 people who were found in breach. That calculates as $34.6 million that was actually taxpayer-funded. I have to tell you this. Taxpayers that are out there, who are giving their taxes to the Government to hold people to account in this particular area\u2014look, it definitely won\u2019t increase crime, but what it will do is hold people to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI will finish by saying this. New Zealand First campaigned on the fact that they would have better scrutiny of the benefit system. That\u2019s exactly what this bill is intended to do. I have to say to New Zealand First on the other side that your supporters that are out there in New Zealand\u2014I have to ask the question. You made a promise; you haven\u2019t kept it. You\u2019ve sucked the kumara. I think it\u2019s a sad day for New Zealand First, who are not supporting this bill. I support this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00223dcad8b3de7243b6b744981b560e87fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dcad8b3de7243b6b744981b560e87fd\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on behalf of the Green Party and to oppose this bill and, hopefully, to see the end of it from this House. There are many reasons that I\u2019ve been pleased to see a change of Government and, I must be honest, seeing the end of this bill is one of those reasons. It was quite\u2014I don\u2019t know the right adjective, really, but it was bemusing at times to sit on the select committee and hear the overwhelming submissions telling us what a bad idea this was and to see the then Government members on the select committee just keep engaging as if it was possible to fix it despite all of the evidence that we had. It started off being just amusing and got to the point of being disturbing, actually. We were being told just so clearly of the dangers of this bill. So it is lovely to rise and speak on this tonight, knowing that this will be the end of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI do just need to reference, for a second\u2014not to defend New Zealand First or speak to their policy\u2014that the last speaker\u2019s view, that this was somehow something to do with scrutiny of the Social Security Act, to me is just a bit of a stretch and a bit of a bizarre concept. I would have thought scrutiny of our social security system was actually about ensuring that it was meeting its purpose, which was, I thought, about ensuring that we had a safety net through which nobody in this country would fall, and that actually this piece of legislation was fundamentally undermining the purpose of that piece of legislation. So, therefore, good scrutiny of our system would involve rejecting this bill, and I think that seems entirely consistent, to my mind, and certainly is consistent with the views expressed by the New Zealand First member throughout the hearings of this committee, not just post-election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI will just briefly recap for people who may be enduring this debate that the point of this piece of legislation is that it is to enable corrections to trigger a process that would lead to benefits being cut for people who are not complying with their community work sentence obligations. To do that, the corrections staff would send a written warning. There would be two written warnings, two weeks apart, stating that the benefit may be cut if the person doesn\u2019t comply within 14 days of that second letter. Work and Income would then be in a position, if they weren\u2019t compliant within that time frame, to cut their benefit. Now, this was only for certain benefits, not all benefits. It was for people on main benefits; it was not for people receiving New Zealand superannuation, it was not for people receiving a veterans pension, it was not for anybody receiving Working for Families entitlements and benefits, and also it wasn\u2019t for anyone who was earning wages, despite the fact that they were the people most likely to be non-compliant with their community work obligations, in terms of numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe idea that this would fix things\u2014that cutting people\u2019s benefits would motivate them to be good people and get compliant\u2014overlooked several key things. One of them, which I do think it is worth reminding this House of, is some of the reasons that people aren\u2019t compliant. Sometimes, the reasons that they\u2019re not compliant have nothing to do with their desire to be compliant but are actually to do with the way that the system works, and I\u2019d like to give the House three examples of that over recent years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EIn one case, in April last year, there was a spike in non-compliance in the Nelson area. This was because they had moved the reporting location for people on community work service from Nelson to Richmond, 20 kilometres away\u2014for a group of people, many of whom were ineligible to drive, in an area where there is very little public transport, and there was no transport being provided by corrections. So a whole lot of people became non-compliant because they just simply couldn\u2019t get themselves to the place of reporting. Now, would anybody sensibly say that the answer to that would be to cut that person\u2019s benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef1af7f8c9140559d0da09c50abf365\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: The Opposition would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f85087bb634b9ab5c9395126d0cfcb\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE\u003C/span\u003E: The Opposition would. As has been pointed out, they seemed to really just not want to engage with that point through the process at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAnother example we heard: in 2016, in Canterbury, there were so many issues of non-compliance that, actually, supervisors were fired; so there were fewer people able to engage with people to find out why, what was going on, and to be able to support them to meet their obligations. So there was less support in being able to follow this up, and you\u2019ve kind of got to see this piece of legislation in that context of \u201CWell, let\u2019s just send a letter. We\u2019ll just send a couple of letters\u2014job done. Don\u2019t need many staff to do that. Just fire those letters off, and then we\u2019ll cut their benefits, and that\u2019s not our problem, because then the police will pick them up and they\u2019ll be in court again for somebody else to deal with.\u201D You really do have to question the basic logic of this proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe also saw another example, which I think speaks more positively around the Department of Corrections\u2019 engagement around non-compliance. In Tauranga, I think, in 2013, there was some research done on the reasons for non-compliance, and they found that one of the major drivers for non-compliance was that people were choosing to go into seasonal piece work and earn some money rather than comply. It was a chance to get some work to be able to support their family and to keep engaging, because they saw that as better for their long-term benefit. When Tauranga looked at this and did the research, they thought, \u201CActually, for the betterment of society and that person or their family, let\u2019s support that. Let\u2019s not consider that non-compliance, and let\u2019s shift their times of responsibility for when they don\u2019t have the opportunity to work. Let\u2019s try and build support around people and have them engage positively in their society.\u201D That is the Green Party\u2019s vision in terms of rehabilitation for people, rather than cutting people\u2019s incomes and driving them\u2014and we heard this evidence so clearly through the select committee, of the very high chances that this would drive more crime, as people didn\u2019t have enough money to be able to pay their rent or put food on the table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EIt also needs to be pointed out, too, when you think of the people getting these letters and the idea that that will just magically trigger them to be able to become compliant\u2014because it had nothing to do with the State\u2019s setting up of a system that didn\u2019t work! But we also have to acknowledge that among young offenders, as an example, 40 percent of them have foetal alcohol syndrome, 20 percent of them have head injuries, 80 percent of them are struggling with alcohol and drug issues, and 40 percent of them with mental illnesses. These are the people whose incomes we\u2019re going to be cutting for not responding appropriately to a community work obligation or a letter that we\u2019ve sent them, which they may not even be able to read, because we know that there are high levels of illiteracy amongst this population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo it is with a great deal of relief that I expect to see this bill voted down in the House this evening, and to stand in support of a social security system that moves us out of the Victorian age and that actually recommits to supporting everyone in this society to be able to put a roof over their head and to be able to participate in society, not just those people who have been fortunate enough to have good enough lives never to end up in the situation of engaging with the justice system and be on income support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00223bcab5fb3cea4c1098167cc06a4e9e40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bcab5fb3cea4c1098167cc06a4e9e40\u0022\u003EPRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. I rise to take a call on the Social Security (Stopping Benefit Payments for Offenders who Repeatedly Fail to Comply with Community Sentences) Amendment Bill, a bill that I absolutely cannot even begin to support because it\u2019s so unbelievably punitive, for one, and, secondly, will not even achieve what it purports to achieve. I\u2019ll begin by outlining, for those who may be watching, what this bill aims to do. I\u2019ll speak to, maybe, the heart of what it wants to achieve, and then outline, based on submissions that the select committee heard\u2014and I am part of the select committee that considered this bill. I\u2019m not even sure that we had one submission that was in support in any way. Overwhelmingly, submitters were incredibly opposed to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESo, to begin, what does this bill do? It, basically, enables the Department of Corrections to instruct the Ministry of Social Development to withhold all or part of a person\u2019s benefit where that person has repeatedly failed to comply with a community-based sentence. According to members on the opposite side of the House, this is a new tool that corrections can use because these people who are on a community-based sentence just don\u2019t turn up and don\u2019t do what they\u2019re supposed to do, and, somehow, cutting the money that they get\u2014and this is money for people who already can\u2019t afford to pay. As the member Darroch Ball rightly pointed out, these are people who can\u2019t afford to pay the fine that has gotten them into this position in the first place. Somehow, members opposite think that taking away even more money from them is going to magically motivate them to comply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWho\u2019s on these community-based sentences? What are they? They\u2019re sentences of community work, supervision, intensive supervision, and community detention. One of the reasons\u2014or, I guess, the main reason\u2014that I\u2019m so incredibly opposed to this bill, as I suspect members on this side of the House are, is because it strikes at the very heart of the values that we stand for: values about social security; values that say, for example, that everyone, regardless of who they are, deserves to live with dignity, and this strips them of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EMembers opposite will stand up and continue to say, \u201CBut of course, they\u2019re really bad people and they should be motivated or encouraged to do what they\u2019re supposed to be doing in the first place.\u201D I don\u2019t think anyone will disagree that people should comply. Those who are on a community-based sentence should comply, but, as the member Jan Logie pointed out as well, perhaps we should be looking at why people don\u2019t comply. How do we define compliance and non-compliance? Those are some of the substantive issues that I would have wished members opposite would have looked at, instead of beneficiary bashing. Really, that\u2019s what this bill is about. That\u2019s the crux of this bill, because it doesn\u2019t apply to someone who\u2019s not on a benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESo basically, what it\u2019s saying\u2014and we\u2019ve heard some of the numbers as well: 27,078 offenders were serving a community-based sentence, over half of them in community work; 5 percent of offenders serving a community-based sentence are prosecuted each month for a breach. Putting on a policy analyst hat from my previous life, if you were tweaking the law or you were developing policy, you\u2019d look at the scale and severity arguments. Really, this bill kind of falls down on both those calls as well, because, firstly, in terms of scale, we\u2019re looking at a very small number of people. In terms of severity, it\u2019s even worse, because you\u2019re talking about people who are on a community-based sentence who don\u2019t have money, and therefore are on a benefit, and who are doubly penalised as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ENow, let\u2019s go into some of the issues as to why this bill\u2019s not going to stack up from a workability point of view either. One of the submitters talked about the fact that this will actually increase the potential for crime. I want to read a couple of quotes which were quite powerful. So this was, I believe, a submission by Kim Workman\u2014Institute of Criminology, Victoria University. He says, quite apart from the fact that this is a punitive bill, and I quote, \u201CWhat is an offender likely to do to survive financially, once deprived of a benefit? [I\u2019ve] discussed this Bill with a group of consumers from that group. Apart from [the] disgust that the state would take food from the mouths of their children, their responses were two-fold. First, that their confidence in the criminal justice [system] and the social welfare systems would deteriorate considerably, and, second, that there will be people within that group who will engage in unlawful activity, in order to feed themselves and their children.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThis leads me to a second point that submitters have raised, a very valid point, which is what is the effect that this bill, if it passes, will have on children and families? It penalises young people. It penalises children and families for something that their parents or their caregiver has done. Over half of submitters on this bill raised that as a massive concern\u2014the concern about wh\u0101nau well-being. In fact, cutting\u2014and this is what it\u2019s going to do; in reality, this is how it\u2019s going to impact people\u2014the sole parent benefit by half would reduce a family\u2019s income by about half the average weekly rent and less than the average weekly food bill. So, basically, what this bill does, in its claim to motivate people to comply to their sentences, is to cut down what they have for rent and for food, which is, basically, what you need to lead a life of any semblance of dignity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESo what is that going to lead us to? An increase in homelessness, like we\u2019ve seen over the last nine years; more people on the streets; more people living in their cars or in their garages; children studying in the back of cars; and people not able to feed themselves and their families as a result. And this is going to make people more compliant? I somehow don\u2019t think so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EFurther harm was another issue that was raised, and the member Jan Logie touched on this as well. Basically, what about beneficiaries who are affected by this bill\u2014if it were to pass, which hopefully it won\u2019t\u2014who have a significant impairment, like brain injury or mental illness? A large number\u2014in fact, 40 percent\u2014of, specifically, young offenders on the community-based sentences have foetal alcohol syndrome, 20 percent have head injuries, and 40 percent have a mental health illness. What about them? Is cutting food and rent money from them going to motivate them to comply as well? What are the root causes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThat is the crux of this whole thing. We stand here discussing this bill that will cut benefits. Just before, earlier this evening, we talked about a bill\u2014again a member\u2019s bill from the opposite side of the House\u2014that talked about increasing a penalty from two years to five years. That was their example\u2014they lauded that example as them being tough on crime. That was going to fix everything. It was going to solve all our criminal justice issues. Just as that bill didn\u2019t look at the root causes of crime\u2014it didn\u2019t take a holistic approach of all the things, the mess that we have to fix to actually get people out of the situations that they\u2019re in\u2014this bill does the same. It doesn\u2019t address the root causes of anything, really. It doesn\u2019t address the root causes of those who are committing any crimes. It doesn\u2019t look at why they\u2019re non-complying in the first place, and I remember reading in some of the advice\u2014I can\u2019t exactly remember where\u2014there are issues like transport\u2014just really simple things where people can\u2019t get to where they\u2019re supposed to be serving their community-based sentence. And then what? So we don\u2019t actually address that, but we\u2019ll cut all their money because that\u2019s going to fix it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EAddress the root causes. Increase the likelihood of people getting caught\u2014this is going back to the previous bill, so in terms of community policing. Fix the social safety net. Fix the housing crisis and the health crisis. Then, perhaps, people will feel supported to actually, firstly, not commit an offence in the first place and then, once they do, to comply with whatever punishment that they\u2019re supposed to go through. Let\u2019s actually support people to get there instead of just punishing them and kicking them when they\u2019re down. That\u2019s absolutely why none of us on this side of the House will be able to, with any semblance of conscience, stand here and support a bill that will punish people at a time in their lives when they absolutely should not be punished but should be supported to get to where they need to get to, and that also will not achieve what this bill wants to do, which was a fine aim, which was to try and get people to comply to a sentence. Sadly, this bill is not going to achieve that, and for that reason I cannot support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022127eb22982cf48fb8ed56c7bceb47881\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022127eb22982cf48fb8ed56c7bceb47881\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand this is a split call. Simon O\u2019Connor\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u002250651261422e4938952e6e811e7822b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250651261422e4938952e6e811e7822b9\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E You know, here was me thinking that the Labour Party, after doubling the taxes on Aucklanders, couldn\u2019t lose any more votes, but, after listening to this left-wing, socialist drivel, I am delighted to stand up and say this is a good bill. The last speaker, Priyanca Radhakrishnan, said, \u201COh, we shouldn\u2019t be punitive.\u201D Absolutely, we should be punitive. This is not about giving teddy bears to criminals and making up excuses. This is what we\u2019ve been filled with here tonight: apologists for crime and bad behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EWe get it from the left wing time and time again: criminals are a product of everybody else; people commit crimes because we as a society are being bad to people. Well, wake up on the other side. Crime exists in human nature, and all your talk of health and kindness ain\u2019t gonna make a lick of difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EMaybe if some of you, like myself, had been to the prisons and worked on the front line, you might just have a little bit more of an understanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc4f16d4377d4ac68aae035fc97f2c38\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e8d10620cb44b12b9a76957ae4d588f\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re clearly apologists\u2014actually, Madam Assistant Speaker, I have absolute confidence that you do have an understanding\u2014absolute apologists for crime here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAllow me to give the members opposite and those committing the crimes a little bit of advice: if you don\u2019t want to get your benefits cut, well, don\u2019t commit the crime in the first place. If you have committed the crime and you don\u2019t want to have your benefit cut, well, turn up when corrections asks you to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022376eebc0edac46e19a6a992584fb8ec4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I just remind the member I don\u2019t want to be brought into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb1c95921d3442479488d744d74c896a\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! I am sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022365aaf1ab3f844aca3858effd76f485e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221688f44ebf914992aa412dfd59a7b299\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies. We will get that right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229073fe5e4991464b81e63e2176819abe\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: The word you were using is \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274d7ffbc6e3b41a1ad50b2fd41059882\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I know, it\u2019s such a\u2014look, the English language has many failings in it, and that\u2019s one of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe other side would do very well in suggesting to those committing the crimes: well, actually, don\u2019t go against what corrections says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe third part\u2014and this really, really gets me down; we get if from the left all the time\u2014is using children as pawns: the \u201COh my God! Who will think of the children?\u201D I worked on the front line in the social service for year after year, and what was striking was the number of people with bad behaviours who would bring their children in and basically use them as pawns to go away and to continue poor behaviour. Well, let\u2019s put out a radical idea. If that\u2019s happening, maybe we should have a conversation with those parents and ask them why they\u2019ve got those children\u2014and maybe we should be doing some more interventions. I want to make it really clear tonight: to the left and to those who are against this bill, stop using children as pawns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day, if you want to wax lyrical about rights, and the rights to welfare and all of this, well, also understand the real basic of rights is it comes with obligations. One of those basics is if we as taxpayers are going to continually fund behaviours, well, then we\u2019re going to expect that you actually, well, you know, follow the law\u2014that might be helpful. We\u2019re not here to make apologies. If you commit crimes, there are consequences. At the end of the day, we\u2019re talking here about something fairly low level, and we\u2019re just adding another tool to corrections\u2019 arsenal to push back\u2014to push back and to actually put an obligation in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EFrom the other side all we\u2019ve heard is\u2014basically, it\u2019s like their drug policy and everything else. It\u2019s basically a principle which says: do whatever the hell a person likes and everyone else will clean up the mess. That\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re hearing from the left here: commit your crimes, don\u2019t follow the rules, don\u2019t do what corrections tells you\u2014in fact, use your children as pawns. We\u2019re just going to say, \u201CThat\u2019s OK. It\u2019s all our fault. Sorry; here\u2019s more money.\u201D Well, that\u2019s absolutely absurd, but it is absolutely typical of progressive, left-wing thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAs I said right at the start, mainstream New Zealand, those that are listening in, will completely understand that these guys are gaga, and, unfortunately\u2014and shockingly so, and I don\u2019t quite understand it\u2014New Zealand First used to say they were tough on crime. They were all about consequences. Well, here\u2019s a bill\u2014it\u2019s relatively simple; it\u2019s adding another consequence\u2014and New Zealand First is not prepared to back it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e4c02ce40fe44c2b2837d9e00e9a6cc\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: Listen to my first speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a8b7cf1a8bd4d1ba6977a4fc766584c\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I did listen to your first speaker. It was what we call incoherent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really confusing, but I\u2019m looking forward to going out\u2014not so much into my electorate. I think there\u2019s a couple of New Zealand First voters; they\u2019re a bit remorseful now\u2014all three of them. But in other parts of the country, when we go around, they\u2019re going to be absolutely shocked that the left, and New Zealand First in particular, say it\u2019s OK not only to commit crimes but to go completely against the directions of corrections and to actually remove one more tool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd I think what will shock them even more is, actually, the apologist behaviour which is coming from the left here, that these poor criminals\u2014it\u2019s what is the classic case. I\u2019ve come across it many a time. It\u2019s mixing up\u2014and it\u2019s very easy for the left to do this, because, you know, not always working\u2014the difference between reasons and justifications. There are reasons people commit crimes, but they don\u2019t justify it. So go away and noodle on that. It\u2019s a bit of a distinction. It might be a bit brain-hurting, but, you know, it\u2019s an absolutely great bill. To Brett Hudson, thank you for bringing it here. Look, it\u2019s not a surprise\u2014those who came in front of the committee and spoke against it. Again, it fits a complete and utter stereotype. And I would just end with a little bit of advice that I gave at the start: if a person doesn\u2019t want to lose access to their benefit, don\u2019t commit the crime. Listen to corrections and actually support society rather than work against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022bce3bc13a75e472dab3afe3a81cd5adc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bce3bc13a75e472dab3afe3a81cd5adc\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, my goodness\u2014where to begin? The member Simon O\u2019Connor\u2014the bleeding hearts here, we find it so difficult to keep railing against the children. Well, guess what? We do care about the children. We actually do care about the children, and we\u2019re absolutely clear that our children don\u2019t deserve to be punished for the actions of their parents. So let\u2019s face the fact, quite clearly, that that is what it will do. According to the members over there, not only will we be going light on justice but we will also be somehow telling the whole world that this is a bad thing. We\u2019ll lose votes. Well, guess what? Our parties here are in Government, and all\u2014all\u2014of the advice against this bill is that it is a poor bill. It is a poor bill and it is not evidenced and it is not good law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s look at\u2014I mean, even the name. I can\u2019t even stand to read the name out, because it actually only refers to beneficiaries. We are not talking about people who commit crimes who are actually just committing crimes and then not being compliant. No, no, no, no. We\u2019re actually only talking about a specific class of people within a specific group of people. We\u2019re not talking about the elderly who are on super. We\u2019re not talking about the pensioners who have gone to war for us. No, no\u2014they\u2019re a special class, too. They don\u2019t get covered. We\u2019re only talking about people who are on benefits who are actually not in work. That\u2019s what we\u2019re talking about, and this legislation makes me feel sick. Actually, when I read this it made me feel sick, because I can tell you this: I have worked on the front line and I have seen some of the reasons why these people are non-compliant, and I swear to you that a lot of people want to be compliant. They try their best and they admit that they\u2019ve made a mistake and they\u2019re criminally convicted for those things. They want to do better, but they don\u2019t have the means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ELet me tell you about a family that I worked with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb4a2589db374b59bf2f2ece81a7fcdb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Don\u2019t bring me into the debate, please, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254377b9bf5c34f71b0bc9cf95c3e36b8\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, ma\u2019am. Let me tell you about a family\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225014c16e83504e9aa6d8f848ba45fa95\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: No, don\u2019t. Don\u2019t tell me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5930195f6de46788f79b2395baf5f61\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014no, no. Let me tell the Opposition\u2014sorry, ma\u2019am. I\u2019m all impassioned. Let me tell you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266a24757115f444fb24f73d6e0bff7e3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f0e18af2d55494ea98c38604284095a\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Let me explain. Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9af1bab0e884c09bb0206aeaa8b935d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Take a deep breath.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1848646d4ff4ce1905f63f705e56971\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014I\u2019m all impassioned. Let me explain about a family I worked with in the refuge. A mum who was on a community sentence came to the refuge, due to the fact, obviously, of domestic violence. Now, what we did was we sat down with her and we said, \u201CYou\u2019re not compliant at the moment.\u201D She said that she knew that, that she hadn\u2019t been able to get there. Her ex-partner knew the time she was supposed to report in. She did not want to go. She didn\u2019t have credit on her phone. There was a private number ringing; she didn\u2019t know who that was. She didn\u2019t answer her phone. She was also unable to receive mail, because she was transient\u2014OK? So this is a woman who has been affected absolutely. So what did we do? We didn\u2019t say, \u201CLet\u2019s cut your benefit by half. Let\u2019s sit down and go, ooh, we\u2019ll punish you so you and your family can\u2019t eat.\u201D No. We said, \u201CLet\u2019s work out a way. Let\u2019s case manage you\u201D\u2014sorry, ma\u2019am. \u201CLet\u2019s case manage, let\u2019s work side by side, and let\u2019s try and get you there\u2014let\u2019s try and get you there, and let\u2019s try and explain the circumstances.\u201D That\u2019s actually better than cutting off a benefit and saying to someone, \u201CWell, that\u2019ll fix ya. That\u2019ll learn ya. That\u2019ll learn you and your family.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022226b7d5d3036429abafa2281ac7117ec\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f50c48443ed14eca9a8da09ea7d3b0a6\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, ma\u2019am. \u201CThat will learn your family.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022799ad3885bee46738eaa9a1d5ab5d18b\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022659d63489d734c3785d57994db6ab2ae\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Oh, I was just so incensed about this poor piece of legislation. I am absolutely opposed to this, and I cannot commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdd836e651d84dc89a3bd759ffaac294\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdd836e651d84dc89a3bd759ffaac294\u0022\u003EHon NICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E In contrast, I rise to support the Social Security (Stopping Benefit Payments for Offenders who Repeatedly Fail to Comply with Community Sentences) Amendment Bill. It\u2019s been a really interesting debate tonight. There\u2019s been an enormous amount of emotion, and there have been two distinct points of view: one that this bill provides an unreasonable punishment, and the other that it provides a positive intervention that can allow people to have another chance. I think we should reflect on where this all comes from, because I think New Zealanders are justifiably proud of our social security system and the policies that underpin our idea of a welfare State.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re basically a compassionate and generous people, and we value fairness in life, and we want to make sure that our fellow citizens are never left out in the street without means of support, and that\u2019s a very good thing. But we also believe that it\u2019s fair to expect our citizens to be part of the community, to be basically honest, and to live by the laws of the land, and if people choose to break the law and victimise other New Zealanders, there should be some consequences. Now, there are always consequences in life, and learning to understand those consequences and manage them responsibly is really a part of being good New Zealanders. So providing realistic consequences is another way to try to stop offenders reoffending and then creating more victims of crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThis bill is about giving corrections an additional tool. It doesn\u2019t have to be used for everybody. It\u2019s not something that is compulsory. It is an additional tool to incentivise compliance from offenders\u2014those ones which are subject to community-based sentences. Now there are about 28,000 offenders who get community-based sentences in any year in New Zealand, and the interesting thing here is that 95 percent of them, approximately, front up and can fulfil their obligations. But about 5 percent don\u2019t, and it\u2019s this 5 percent that, if they don\u2019t front up, at the moment are liable for prosecution for breaching their community sentence, and can be sent to jail. This bill provides an alternative to prosecution. It provides an alternative that might end up with people in jail, and I think everybody in this House knows that sending people to jail is not necessarily a good answer. So it provides an alternative to prosecution as a last resort when offenders are not prepared to meet their obligations imposed by the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been quite a lot of discussion tonight about the people who may get one of these sentences, but let me make the point clear that when a court imposes these sentences, it takes those things into account, and the fact that 95 percent of people can manage to front up and fulfil their obligations means that it\u2019s working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s also been talk that it discriminates against beneficiaries, but there\u2019s a flipside to that too. It also means that beneficiaries have another chance before prosecution. They have a chance to work their way through the process and to comply. What it means is that after two warnings, not one\u2014two warnings\u2014and an extra 14 days for people to be able to have that discussion, to look at the consequences, if they still don\u2019t comply they may get their benefit cut, or, if they\u2019ve got a family, half of their benefit may be cut. I think that\u2019s pretty reasonable as a tool in the tool kit for people who haven\u2019t managed to front up, like 95 percent of the offenders do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ESo I support this bill. I see it as an opportunity to give offenders who do not attend their community-based sentences another chance to avoid prosecution and to end up in jail. Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00221eec46c63c6d4276a93a159c018874f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eec46c63c6d4276a93a159c018874f5\u0022\u003EJAN TINETTI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It will be no surprise that I rise to oppose the Social Security (Stopping Benefit Payments for Offenders who Repeatedly Fail to Comply with Community Sentences) Amendment Bill. Gosh, that\u2019s a big mouthful, for such a bill that I am so appalled with\u2014a Draconian, appalling bill that can only lead to social harm and further criminal offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EBut I will say this: even though it is such a bill that appals me so much, I will actually congratulate whoever drafted this bill, because it must be a very hard feat to draft out a bill that two absolutely opposing groups have both come out in opposition of. No Pride in Prisons, against wanting to actually have real reforms in our prison system, said that this was a bad bill\u2014probably no surprise there. But also, I see here a quote from the Manawat\u016B-based Sensible Sentencing Trust spokesperson also coming out opposed to this bill. So we\u2019ve got people from all political spectrums who agree that this is an appalling, bad bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ENow, I want to start with a quote here from one of the groups who submitted, who was JustSpeak, to the Social Services and Community Committee. The reason I want to start with this is because this particular quote talks about what is wrong with the fact that the department would be put in charge of \u201Cpunishing\u201D\u2014and that is the only word that they use here\u2014people who are not turning up for the sentences. JustSpeak says this: \u201CIt is the role of our courts to determine the appropriate punishment when someone has committed a crime. It is the role of the Department to enforce and supervise that punishment. Withholding benefit payments goes beyond enforcing and supervising a court-determined punishment, and amounts to imposing a punishment above and beyond that which the sentencing judge determined was appropriate for the crime committed. The Department is not equipped to determine the appropriate punishment \u2026 Nor does the Bill provide an appropriate framework for such a decision to be made.\u201D It\u2019s that not having that framework or the department having the understanding of why that non-compliance happened in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ENow, my colleague over here from the Greens Jan Logie talked about the reasons for non-compliance. We have reasons such as transport issues, accommodation, and childcare issues. People who had opportunity to work\u2014and I was very pleased to hear Jan talk about the Tauranga example of our fruit pickers, our people that go to get their work in season fruit picking. Some of those people were actually parents at my school who took out the time to actually go and get work, and corrections worked with those people. That, unfortunately, is not happening anywhere, and is being seen as a reason why those people don\u2019t come for their correction service that they have to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI want to tell a story, not particularly around someone that\u2019s going through probation\u2014but a parent of mine who I worked with in a school that I was principal at, who was taken right off the system because they couldn\u2019t show up to work\u2014a parent who had a six-year-old son when she was 21 herself. So she was a child when she had a child, and she had very little support around her. One day, this particular boy had severe behaviour problems\u2014lovely little boy\u2014and we\u2019d got help through a child mental health foundation to actually support this particular boy and the mum so that both of them could grow and be stronger together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ETransport issues were big for this particular mum and when her car continually broke down and she couldn\u2019t afford to get fuel in that car, she couldn\u2019t get to the appointments. She had no money on her phone to contact anyone to tell them that she couldn\u2019t make those appointments. She was sent a letter to her old rental place\u2014she had changed twice because of housing issues. The letter had gone to her old place, nobody followed through, and when she didn\u2019t make the appointment for the third time, she was completely wiped off the list\u2014completely. No follow up whatsoever. So the child and the mother were hurt, because they can\u2019t get the support that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThis is the intent of this bill. The intent of this bill is to actually hurt people, because they can\u2019t get there. We don\u2019t know what the issues are. We don\u2019t know what the issues are and why they don\u2019t turn up. How does that make it right that we would put in a Draconian, punitive punishment that will not fix the root cause? To make a difference in behaviour, to actually help these people, we need to walk alongside them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI am appalled that we have people in this House in the Opposition who believe that it is OK to punitively punish these people. They are looking at these people through their lens. They are not walking beside these people. They have no idea of the troubles that these people face, and then they have the audacity to stand there and say, \u201CIf we had known what these people were like.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWell, I will tell them that I have worked with these people for quite some time, and I know the troubles that these people face. I know the hardships. I am prepared to walk with them. I am prepared to look at ways as a Government that we can make things easier, that we can allow these people the opportunities and the frameworks that will help and support them, and that\u2019s what we will do. I have no shame in saying that we care. I have no shame in saying that we will show kindness. It is being used against us at the moment as something that is supposedly bad. I have no shame in saying that I will put a lens of kindness and a lens of caring when we are dealing with these issues. I know that my colleagues along this side of the House feel exactly the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe need to wrap around. We need wraparound. We need to walk alongside. One thing that I\u2019d like to say is that there was no understanding from the member who raised this bill about incentivisation. He mentioned that this would incentivise people to do the right thing. He needs to go back and study psychology, I\u2019m afraid. There is no such thing as using punishment to incentivise. It does not work. That will not change behaviour. It absolutely will not change behaviour. As I have said, we need to walk alongside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI was pleased when my colleague from New Zealand First Mr Ball talked about Brett Hudson\u2019s quote that he said, \u201CThis is an alternative to the harsh fine the offender cannot afford.\u201D Tell me what the difference is. This is an alternative to the harsh fine the offender cannot afford! So we won\u2019t fine them, but we\u2019ll take the money off that they can\u2019t afford to pay for the fine anyway. So we\u2019ll get around it by saying, \u201COh, we\u2019re just going to take the money away.\u201D, and that is supposed to be an incentivisation. What incentivisation is there around that? It is not. It is an absolute stick to use to punish people further. It is kicking someone when they are down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ae6ddafd90c4a4281fa1a106e7dd79f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Have you been drinking, Matt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022654cdca50caa4a5a803f37fce9d42f42\u0022\u003EJAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! The last point that I would like to make, in conclusion, is that I will also make absolutely no apologies for putting the needs of children at the centre. I have been doing that my entire working life. So to have someone stand here tonight and tell me that we are going to pull out our violins and put the children and use the children\u2014I have always put the needs of children at the front of everything that I do. I will make no apologies about this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ETo say that we will take money away from these families hurts the children, and anything that will hurt the children I will always stand up against, and I will always rail against anybody that will do that. This is a terrible bill, and I am actually pleased to stand here and say that I am totally against it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00223944a5b11c9a4d949aae096624b3d1d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223944a5b11c9a4d949aae096624b3d1d8\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. Well, we\u2019ve heard it all tonight, but a thing that is missing out of all of the debate that I\u2019ve heard here tonight is that we are actually talking about criminals. These are people who have been to court and they have been convicted of a crime. The difference is they have been sentenced to a non-custodial sentence. A lot of these people end up in our communities, they end up doing community work, and, for me, I\u2019m extremely grateful for the contribution they make back to those communities. They\u2019ve seen the product of their toils. We have seen some wonderful community projects completed by people doing their non-custodial sentences. Most of them I have found to be really good people, who have just done something quite stupid that\u2019s ended them up in this situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI was most impressed by one young man who was convicted of a crime. He did his community service and worked on a special project in town, in Hokitika. His community sentence was up before the project was finished, and he had invested so much of himself in that and got so much pride out of what he had done that he came back to finish the project as a volunteer. I think that\u2019s a huge credit to the corrections staff that work with these people doing their community service. I want to give a shout out to the corrections staff, because it\u2019s not always easy for them. I\u2019ve seen the effort that they put in, in helping the people that are doing this community work to actually achieve their sentences and put things right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut, as we\u2019ve heard tonight, there are a few that are hard to reach, and they are the 5 percent that are the most difficult. They\u2019re the ones that are non-compliant with their non-custodial sentences. So what are the consequences for these people that fail to turn up? Well, there actually is a precedent for this bill\u2014that precedent is the Social Security (Benefit Categories and Work Focus) Amendment Act of 2013. That Act actually withholds benefit payments for people who have outstanding warrants, and they are on benefits. So there is precedent for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI think my last closing comment I would like to make to the other side of the House is if you do the crime and don\u2019t do the time, don\u2019t expect the taxpayers to pay you when you don\u2019t turn up. We on this side of the House are not soft on crime, and we simply want those people who have been convicted to do their time. Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022945429cd17654c0b9fb9b4e8560b50e5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Social Security (Stopping Benefit Payments for Offenders who Repeatedly Fail To Comply with Community Sentences) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a278efdb54684d28835775ef7bdb5f99\u0022\u003EEmployment (Pay Equity and Equal Pay) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220049aa438a624b62af25bde3aa90b5be\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000661\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 21 March.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4b909c7b23042a2a8c4a309e82aa128\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4b909c7b23042a2a8c4a309e82aa128\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. It is my pleasure to come back and resume the speech that was interrupted a couple of weeks ago now, because this is an incredibly important issue and this is something that we on the Government side of this House care very strongly about. In fact, our Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, has promised she will not rest until pay equity is achieved in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe bill that we have on the floor of the House tonight that we are debating simply will not achieve that. When we heard the member\u2014who, I believe, had the best of intentions in bringing this bill to the House, but when we look at the mechanisms that are contained in this bill, and we\u2019ve heard members talking about this, vaunting what a success the Kristine Bartlett settlement was and the number of women that were lifted out of poverty through this settlement, we agree with that. We agree that was a great moment, and, as I said in my previous contribution, I am a proud member of the union that took that action and got those women that pay rise, against a Government that fought them every step of the way in the courts\u2014the previous Government. I am proud to say those women\u2014Kristine Bartlett and all the other members of that union\u2014fought hard and won a rightful case there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut the bill that we have on the floor of the House tonight simply would not allow another settlement such as the Kristine Bartlett case, as it has come to be called. There\u2019s some very simple mechanistic reasons contained within this legislation why that would not occur. It\u2019s why we would not vote for this bill when the Opposition were in Government and brought this to the House as a Government bill, and why we won\u2019t vote for it now that it\u2019s reappeared, recycled as a member\u2019s bill. It\u2019s because of the comparator mechanism that what we have in here, the reason\u2014the very reason\u2014that Kristine Bartlett was able, and those women and that union were able, to achieve that historic win against the Government, who took them to court every step of the way, was because they were able to make comparisons with comparable occupations. Under this legislation that we have here tonight, that simply would not be possible, and that is why we will not support this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe believe passionately in equal pay on this side of the House. It is in our DNA, politically, and is one of the things that we stand for. But what we will not support is legislation that purports to achieve it and actually achieves the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be966eaab9a54777bd09e30f999f3810\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: Virtue signalling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d48c9b95c3c4caaaa0354753c8bd3ca\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Because one of the things\u2014that\u2019s right. As my colleague the Hon David Parker has said, it\u2019s a virtue signalling. [Interruption] Oh, sorry, no\u2014it\u2019s Michael Wood. Sorry, there\u2014you\u2019re sounding like David Parker. What this does is it distinguishes between equal pay, unlawful discrimination on matters other than remuneration, and pay equity claims. It sets out the processes for making and resolving those claims, and equal pay claims are treated as claims for recovery of wages under section 131(1)(b) of the Employment Relations Act of 2000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, these all sound like very dry ways to describe it, but what this does is it forces parties to a pay equity claim to get bogged down in the arguments about sometimes irrelevant comparisons with the treatment of people doing different jobs in other sectors. That was precisely the reason, because that didn\u2019t have to be achieved, that we could actually achieve the win for Kristine Bartlett and those other women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis Government is committed to implementing policies to help women of all ages, all ethnicities, all abilities, and all sexualities achieve pay equity. This bill does not meet the Government\u2019s objective of making it quicker, easier, and cheaper to achieve equal pay and to eliminate the gender pay gap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAnd we hear a whole lot of shrieking from the other side of the House, from the Opposition. There were nine years that those members had in Government where they could have prioritised closing the gender pay gap, where they could have prioritised issues such as pay equity. Instead, they started their term in Government by cancelling measures that the previous Labour-led Government had put in place to achieve pay equity and never rebounded from it. This bill describes a less progressive approach to achieving pay equity than the one that this Government is currently working through with the joint working group, and it is that process that we are committed to doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt is so important that we remain committed to putting the right mechanisms in place so people can achieve that. New Zealand women continue to receive less pay than men in similar roles. That is not right. It is not something this Government is prepared to stand by, as the previous Government did, and let continue. We want to put in place measures that will make real change. I do congratulate the member that has had her bill drawn, but we can\u2019t support this, because this will not make the real and meaningful change that we require in this country. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002286c041fd2f7c4da49252c23b987110d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286c041fd2f7c4da49252c23b987110d2\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I didn\u2019t interrupt my colleague in the final minute of her speech, but during the outburst of interjections, the honourable member of Parliament for Selwyn made an unparliamentary comment, and I\u2019d like to ask you to ask her to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022775358d0ae2e49c0b28cada387dff9c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022775358d0ae2e49c0b28cada387dff9c4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t hear an unparliamentary; I heard a lot of\u2014but I\u2019ll ask the member, if she made an unparliamentary comment, if she would withdraw it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213ce707054ea4681885ed6010b89d1ab\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Deputy Speaker, I did call her a hypocrite, and I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1f18859c5ae4a0a9607271623511e0a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Is someone seeking the call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022287e0b2d9e0d49e9ad080b0ced45d971\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022287e0b2d9e0d49e9ad080b0ced45d971\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We\u2019ve just heard the most remarkable bluster and prose from the member Megan Woods, who seems to think that simply shouting and being domineering makes up for action. I have to say to this House that empty words, hollow promises, and a lot of talk do nothing for the women of this country. In this House any of us can stand here and make speeches and we can claim to represent the downtrodden and support those who need it and stand up, but actually it\u2019s actions that matter. And from the last speaker we just heard a long-winded speech about how much they cared and how much they would do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the reality: the first thing this new Government did on taking office was to wipe from the Order Paper a bill that gave women the chance to have an equal pay claim heard. It\u2019s worth reflecting on the fact that this is not just because they didn\u2019t agree and it was the old Government\u2019s agenda. They left almost every other bill on the agenda, and they disagreed with most of them. The one bill that the incoming Labour - New Zealand First, supported by the Greens, Government wanted to strike from the Order Paper was the bill that gave women a process and a way to have a fair claim, an equal pay claim heard. It\u2019s a matter of fact, and anybody can go back and check the reinstatement motion. I\u2019m happy to point them to the place in Hansard if they don\u2019t remember, if their memories have blacked out their own egregious actions. The first thing they did was strike the equal pay claim legislation from the Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EMy colleague Denise Lee has done exactly the right thing, which is to say that the women of New Zealand deserve an actual process\u2014not empty words, not hollow promises, not baseless rhetoric about all the good they want to do. This is action. And the one thing this side of the House and my colleague Denise Lee have said to the Government is: women deserve to know how and when they can make an equal pay claim. We have asked the Government repeatedly: what is the time frame? When will women be able to make an equal pay claim? What is the process they can follow? Are you going to force them to go\u2014[Interruption] Not you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Will the Government force them to go to court to argue their case? And\u2014nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe only concrete thing this Government has done is remove this bill that was well through the processes of this House, that implemented the joint working group\u2019s recommendations for a process to give women an opportunity and a real process to have these claims heard\u2014wipe it from this Parliament. Now, on this side of the House, we don\u2019t just talk about gender equality, we don\u2019t just talk about supporting women, we don\u2019t give speeches about how important it is, and do nothing. This is a real bill with content based on the excellent work of the joint working group that my colleague the Hon Michael Woodhouse introduced in his time as a Minister. This is a hard piece of policy work that our Government progressed because it mattered, that we put on the Order Paper because it mattered, and that this Government had just dispensed with because it didn\u2019t suit their agenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EWell, I commend my colleague Denise Lee for bringing it back to the House, because this is a woman who wants to see other women have a chance, have an opportunity to make a real difference for themselves\u2014not to have to go to court; real action for the women of New Zealand. We are the Opposition; we understand that. We don\u2019t have the power and the numbers in the House to take through our own agenda, but what we won\u2019t do is sit quietly and watch the women of New Zealand have no opportunity to make a claim, have their real, genuine issues be pushed aside while this Government wants to rebrand, reframe it, and claim it as their own. We\u2019ve seen that time and time again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EWe want to put the women of New Zealand first. This bill gives them a chance to do it. It doesn\u2019t put them on the eternal never-never of when they can bring a claim. This is a real chance to give women that chance to have their claims heard. Now, if the Government was genuine, if there was anything genuine in the Government\u2019s wish to help women bring their claims, they\u2019d say, \u201COK, National. You know what? This is bigger than politics. Let\u2019s get this done, and if there are things we disagree with, we\u2019ll work on it. You know, we can disagree with the structures or the provisions, the comparing of the comparator industries, we can work on that.\u201D They haven\u2019t done that\u2014they haven\u2019t done that. All they did was wipe it from the Order Paper and say no to the women of New Zealand. Well, this side of the House wants real action for New Zealand women, not just talk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u002283eda434d00f40b4830374672d5c1a64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283eda434d00f40b4830374672d5c1a64\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister of Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I mean, after that load of nonsense, are we meant to believe the National Party are the great advocates for women? Ha! Next minute you\u2019ll be the great advocates for workers and the great advocates for M\u0101ori. The sad part is that some of us in this House have advocated for women. I was part of the equal pay for work of equal value campaign in 1986. The Northern Clerical Workers Union, as the Hon Andrew Little will know, led the fight for equal pay for women while the National Party were doing their right-wing training for opposing women\u2019s rights. Now, today, you would\u2014sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker. The National Party would have us believe they are now the great advocates. It is an absolute joke, the nonsense we\u2019re hearing tonight. Eight years of doing nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbaf7986be1c498ebbb1424ccee6233b\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: We did it\u2014you undid it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022697d1583aa10495caa03699a5566e39e\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: You did nothing. The National Party did nothing for eight years, and then finally, hello, in election year, \u201COh, we\u2019d better do something because there\u2019s an election coming up.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf85f4f8084849fd8ce5bc8fbd0875c3\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: And the court case said they had to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf46676c213f48aeb9061f7731a35856\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that\u2019s right, there was a court decision. Ah, that\u2019s right. We\u2019ll care about women in 2017, because we might just lose the election. And you lost\u2014the National Party lost. But what did we get in 2017? A 2.6 percent reduction\u2014a 2.6 percent reduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4df36ba9b0c4dc4bc33023b21cf2b89\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Could the member come to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c664d5229b934e60a0ef63c01ce93ebd\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m talking about the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad999a66ddc44173834769289403eaf4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Discuss the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a44cf8b9b3f744aca974f8e69c104471\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I oppose the bill, Madam Chair. I thought you might have got that by now, Madam Chair, but I totally oppose the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e2180fa850a412b9c035dd36d8b9d96\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m actually Madam Deputy Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d36c93567e848189a057a31fb79a8ee\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228048af982ae447eeb52536d76752dcbb\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and you will address me with some respect, and you will address the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbe75dbda55048b1836705a5e987ed7f\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m addressing the bill, Madam Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ef00f7204fd42ab9be367ec222a1382\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I haven\u2019t heard it yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c00406e51324ab39cd06f19db3f1927\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely oppose the bill, Madam Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d27877b44684686a00d1fc903d8d5d5\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, then, talk about the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8b1ce6d92544713b79b4d8da58f8c1c\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m talking about a bill that has been set up that actually will restrict women in terms of what they\u2019re doing. We have these types of statistics: women aged between 25 and 39\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293a91f3bc2434b3d886bed6e43a78c3d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Would you discuss the bill\u2014the contents of the bill before the House. Not statistics, not election results, but the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022113df8e819844410a76fe7ad251d331a\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m saying the bill\u2019s not necessary, because this coalition Government has already got a plan in terms of equity. We have a Prime Minister who is committed to reducing inequalities, particularly in terms of women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022212f62574b1547e58565e787a4dfaf87\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Do something about it then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227afd43c457564744b41c9babce4d8f09\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: She has made that statement. We know all about it. Sadly, that member over there knows very little about it because she\u2019s done very little in terms of addressing equity in terms of women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EPay equity and equal pay are core principles of this Government, and we have a Prime Minister, as I said, who will not rest until pay equity has been addressed. So, as a Government, we\u2019re absolutely committed to this. This Government has supported the Joint Working Group on Pay Equity Principles, which is comprised, as the Opposition should know, of business, worker, and Government representatives, and this is the best way of addressing pay equity issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290386e28ca374a0f96bd48bd4750d261\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Stop reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b55720ce287041cf9657a645321401e0\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019ve got to read because when I talk you keep yelling and screaming, so I\u2019ve decided to come back to the bill. This is a bill that we\u2019re absolutely committed to opposing, as you\u2019ve heard tonight, because it is absolutely opposed to what we want. Our great advocate Kristine Bartlett would not support what the Opposition are trying to do with this bill. It actually works against everything that she aspires to have, to want, in terms of women\u2019s equity. It actually would go contrary to everything that we want. We want absolute equity for women in the workplace. What we do know is that as men get older they get wage increases; as women get older their wages decrease. That\u2019s just absolute fact. That\u2019s a fact that this Labour Party has espoused for many years. We can\u2019t address those types of areas with this type of bill, which is contrary and opposite to all the principles that the Labour Party stand for. Kia ora, Madam Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022 data-id=\u002221b9b721973a4f0b8bf6e0eea94630d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221b9b721973a4f0b8bf6e0eea94630d5\u0022\u003ECLAYTON MITCHELL (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I just want to start by acknowledging Denise Lee\u2019s bill being drawn from the ballot. It\u2019s a great honour to have that and it\u2019s a very, very worthy cause and a great opportunity to try and rectify a wrong that\u2019s being going on in this country for far too long. Also I acknowledge Nicola Willis. Welcome to the House, our newest member, and I look forward to hearing your contributions after you\u2019ve got your maiden statement under way, which I\u2019m sure the House will be filled for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003ELook, this is a very worthy bill in so far as it is trying to fix a problem that we\u2019ve had to deal with for a very, very long time. In fact, if you look back to 1998, I think the pay equity of women to men was a ratio of about 16.4 percent lower. Now we\u2019re actually starting to head in the right direction and I understand what this bill intended to do, but the reason why New Zealand First will be opposing this bill is we don\u2019t believe it goes far enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EWe are now sitting at a pay equity gap of about 9.2 percent differential. Again, I say we\u2019re heading in the right direction, but it\u2019s really quite ironic that here we are in 2020 and we\u2019re actually in Parliament discussing the pay equity of men and women. I see absolutely no difference between the jobs that men do and women do. We shouldn\u2019t be paying people a different wage for doing the same job or a similar job because of ethnicity, because of race, because of gender. We should be treating everybody equally and the same, no matter what. It\u2019s about fairness and it is about equity. New Zealand First has always been a strong advocate and I look around the House and I have to say our coalition partners also have a very, very strong ethic on this issue and have been fighting for a very long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EI think the Novopay and Kristine Bartlett\u2019s outcome was a fantastic result. I think the group that was put together\u2014the joint working group to come up with ways to ensure that we don\u2019t have these problems\u2014also came up with some good solutions, but this bill doesn\u2019t quite go far enough and we can see some problems with this bill. Yes, we could potentially work through this in select committee, but the reason why we\u2019re opposing this bill is because this coalition Government is working on this very same issue to iron out those problems. It wouldn\u2019t make sense to put the time of this House into two bills trying to get the right outcome simultaneously. So we will be opposing this moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EI have to say I do love members\u2019 day. You know, having members\u2019 bills being read in this House shows the passion. There\u2019s a very, very robust conversation going on this evening, and most evenings, in fact, when it comes to something that we\u2019re very passionate about. But I have to say we are equally passionate on this side about this issue, and again I commend the member for her passion for this, and the last speaker, Amy Adams, when she spoke\u2014it very, very strongly resonates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EYou know, I grew up with my mother, who would be described in any society as a feminist and a very, very strong passionate supporter and person who stands up for the rights of women. So I grew up in that environment, but I\u2019m not a feminist, but I don\u2019t have to be a feminist to stand up for what is right about equal pay and pay equity. I\u2019m a humanist and I go back to my point about saying, \u201CLet\u2019s make sure that everybody gets treated the same in the workplace with equal pay, with pay equity.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EThe part that this bill doesn\u2019t go far enough in is to do with the comparators\u2014the way that this bill, if it goes through, will be checking the balances of other industries with those people being paid differently. It is about looking within the industry itself so it\u2019s internalising the externalities, but we want to externalise the internalities of this problem and make sure we\u2019re actually reaching out looking at other working groups, other working environments, with people that are equally skilled, that work just as hard, to make sure that they have the same right of a fair day\u2019s pay for a fair day\u2019s work, which absolutely underpins this Government, this coalition Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003ESo I again thank the House for their contributions. I thank the member for her heartfelt positive attempt to fix the wrongs of our history. We have got work under way that is being discussed now and will be coming out in the very, very near future, that I\u2019m sure the House will actually join forces in to ensure that it goes through all stages uninterrupted. Again, thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002276a5af050a3943b19acae9c84a154ec1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276a5af050a3943b19acae9c84a154ec1\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to begin by congratulating, for the first time publicly, Kristine Bartlett on her award of being made Kiwibank New Zealander of the Year\u2014I think very well deserved. I also want, for the second time, to acknowledge and thank the officials who worked with me on the crafting of this bill. I can tell the House that it was literally thousands of hours that went into the framing of this legislation that has\u2014once again, we are debating this for the second time, and while I congratulate Denise Lee for her initiative and her good luck, what we should be doing this week is debating this bill, in its second reading, as a Government bill picked up by the Labour-led Government and amended as they saw fit because of the shortcomings that they perceived. But they did not do that, and the sad thing is that the actions of the Government in throwing this bill away and starting again have set back the progress of equity for women in this country by months if not years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI want to just reject a couple of the main claims that have been made by the opponents of the bill: firstly, that the previous Government was led kicking and screaming into the TerraNova settlement. That was not true. The Government wasn\u2019t even a party to those negotiations. The Employment Court\u2019s ruling, under section 9 of the Equal Pay Act, was that the Equal Pay Act applied to work of equal value. That was it. All it did was get E t\u016B and Kristine Bartlett to the start line, and had the Government and Cabinet not taken this issue so terribly seriously, they could have been tied up in knots for years and years. But the previous Government decided that this was worth it for women and got those parties together, took it out of the courts, and settled to the tune of $2.3 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe second claim that I just simply reject is that the TerraNova settlement couldn\u2019t have been achieved had this bill been in law prior to the claim being made. It\u2019s just not true. Indeed, the process that the parties to the TerraNova settlement followed mirrored the bill. It mirrored the bill in respect of establishing the merit of the claim and working towards what was an appropriate settlement, using comparators that started within the industry. Indeed, this opposition to starting within an industry is completely irrational when one thinks about, for example, the health industry, which is by definition dominated by women. One of the criteria that even the Government, when it brings its bill back\u2014whenever that might be\u2014will have is that if there is no comparator occupation, because they too are dominated by women, then they will have to go outside the industry, and that was the provision that was made in the bill in Denise Lee\u2019s name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, I note that the officials provided me with advice about comparisons with other jurisdictions around the world, and I can inform the House, again, that this bill, if it is passed, would make New Zealand by far the most progressive country against any that we compare ourselves to. The EU, Australia, the UK, the US, Canada, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Ireland, and Finland all have less progressive frameworks than this bill has, and I note that New Zealand actually starts in that comparison with the lowest gender pay gap amongst those countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut I think I better understand now why those people who are opposed to this bill do so. My goal, and the previous Government\u2019s goal, was to create a framework that keeps the Crown and the courts out of bargaining and leaves it to the parties, who are best placed to negotiate in good faith, and I realise now that the opponents to this bill want completely the opposite. They want the Crown involved. They want the courts involved as the place of first resort, not last resort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EWe are going back to bargaining the way it used to be in the 1960s and 1970s, and that will be bad for employment relations. It will certainly be bad for women. That\u2019s a setback for women because this is a really good bill, and it is a shame on the Government, who won\u2019t even tell us when they\u2019re going to bring an alternative piece of legislation before this House. The women of New Zealand deserve much, much better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002268ae694be35f446ea32b0e5d914bd594\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268ae694be35f446ea32b0e5d914bd594\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Deputy Speaker. I really want to give a polite speech and I want to acknowledge the member who\u2019s had the bill drawn in her first few months of being an MP. I want to acknowledge that I\u2019m sure that she thinks she\u2019s doing the right thing, but it\u2019s really hard to respond politely to the speeches from the Opposition because they are so unbelievable. It\u2019s like an alternative reality. It\u2019s really hard to be polite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI\u2019d love to take the Opposition seriously, but I can\u2019t even respond politely because the honourable member Michael Woodhouse just said that if this legislation had passed, we would be the most progressive country in the world. Well, let me just read one submission, OK\u2014just the opening line of one submission. The executive summary from the submission on this bill, when it was at select committee the first time it was there, from the New Zealand Federation of Business and Professional Women (BPW), an international organisation with representatives in over 100 countries, said, \u201COur organisation\u2019s aims are to link Professional and business women throughout the world so that they may provide support to each other, lobby for change and promote the ongoing advancement of women and girls.\u201D They work for equal opportunities. Now what was their statement in the executive summary? \u201CBPW NZ strongly disagrees with several key clauses in this Bill and believes that this legislation, in its current form, would be a step backward for the pay equality/equity cause. We believe, for marginalised women in particular, that this legislation would result in further discrimination.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s a whole host of organisations who are expert on this issue who are not political\u2014BPW isn\u2019t political. A bunch of you are probably members of BPW. They are not left or right. This seems to be the problem for the Opposition. It is they live in their own little world and completely refuse advice, and have their own dreams about what this legislation would do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo let me just give a little history lesson for the members who weren\u2019t here when this legislation went through the first time. So, in October 2015, the previous Government established a Joint Working Group on Pay Equity Principles, which reported back on 7 June 2016. They didn\u2019t bring new legislation to the House for over a year after that group reported back. They sat on the advice from that working group, and they waited until the day after\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f1cf629e89942db8857d24f9a919a64\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d appreciate the member talking about the bill that\u2019s before the House, not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a90bea7c3ce4cfc9372ffa447783fdb\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: This is the bill. This is the bill, the first time it was before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc7dd813b44e4c938f0d0e0d5016d8c1\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill that is before the House now, not history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246cb272d96154cbf82469243dd9a09f2\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that it is worth\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269906519911d4fd69352fefaf84e8783\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Are you\u2014is the member arguing with me? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022568dda886f484b7e9b3a417af0114a4f\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Do you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a40f3c47325c4305acf2b7a9b7280496\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am asking the member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224383e807b8564989857983d098217e9f\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask a question? Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e1ba16ff3724b409438c5b4bb089383\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would you sit down while I am standing. Thank you. I\u2019m asking the member to come to discuss the bill before the House tonight; not the history. I\u2019ve given the member some time, but I do want the member to discuss the actual bill that\u2019s in front of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214b1ac83c66346ddb939df7093256578\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The bill before the House right now is identical to a bill that was before the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239a780e0cd754edea89e690828d0d4d7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this\u2014that is not a point of order, and you will not argue with the Speaker. Will you discuss the bill in front of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d3d889e384411bb33fccc8432f0635\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I\u2019m happy to discuss the bill in front of the House and how all of the submitters previously said that this legislation was flawed, and that\u2019s why the current Government withdrew that bill and it has reconvened the joint working group. It has already received recommendations that made specific points about merit and comparators that make this piece of legislation completely redundant and completely out of line with what Business New Zealand and the other members of the joint working group have recommended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo that is why this bill is completely useless and redundant, and the member sponsoring it clearly has no understanding of the content or the context, because literally no one apart from the National Party Opposition thinks this bill would advance the cause of pay equity. The very specific issues with the bill that BPW NZ raised had to do with the issues around establishing merit before a pay equity claim can proceed. This means proving that their part of the workforce is historically undervalued. The onus will solely be on the employee to prove all of this before bringing a pay equity claim, and that is why this legislation was specifically designed in the first instance, and again, to make it harder for working women to be paid fairly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThat is the universal opinion on this bill outside of the National Party Opposition, and I\u2019m so glad they\u2019re no longer in Government, because this Government is already making real progress on pay equity for women. We have the recommendations from the joint working group, which clearly saw the problems with this piece of legislation, and we\u2019ll be introducing new legislation within the next few months that will actually make it easier for women to achieve the pay that they deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt is just unbelievable\u2014unbelievable\u2014that they claim that this piece of legislation is about fair pay when it is the opposite. It\u2019s putting in place barriers for the most marginalised women. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u00221dc8be3788fe4aa09f3fdafdba8a9dfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dc8be3788fe4aa09f3fdafdba8a9dfc\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you, and I am rising to take a call on the Employment (Pay Equity and Equal Pay) Bill. I would have really liked to support this bill drawn in the name of the member Denise Lee. I think she\u2019s actually a good sort. We work together quite collegially in the select committee. But not this bill, I\u2019m sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThis bill is a dog\u2019s breakfast, and this bill has been before the House before. I remember taking part in an equal pay rally in August 2017, and the women were absolutely outraged with this bill. They didn\u2019t have the wool pulled over their eyes. They knew damn well that this bill was not a good bill. Someone referred to it as a turd wrapped in glitter, and I have to agree with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ESo, about pay equity\u2014everybody here agrees, I\u2019m sure, that the gender pay gap is not acceptable. It\u2019s the result of decades of discrimination and prejudice. Work that includes a caring component is just paid less because it\u2019s seen as women\u2019s work. So it was great to see predominantly women, 55,000 last year, in caring roles\u2014aged care, disability, and home support\u2014receive a pay increase when Kristine Bartlett and the union E t\u016B won their case through the courts. This is why I was quite astonished that the member Michael Woodhouse asked us to question whether this Government was going to force the women to go through courts when the previous Government supported the employers appealing against the Terranova case all the way to the Supreme Court. So it\u2019s a little bit rich to throw it back this way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EBut what wasn\u2019t great was that after the low-paid women, who put heart and soul into some of the most difficult work that is being done in society\u2014they won their settlement after fighting all the way through the courts, and what did the previous Government do straight away? They enacted legislation to try and force it through with a one-vote majority\u2014one vote\u2014in July 2017, and had they been successful, the legislation that had then gone through the House would have eroded and undermined the actual settlement. But, luckily, we had a change of Government, and the bill was withdrawn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EBut today, unfortunately, through the members\u2019 bill process we see the hideous bill back before the House. Now, I have gone through this bill painstakingly to try and find a difference\u2014one difference with the previous bill\u2014and I didn\u2019t find any at all. Actually, no, I should apologise, there\u2019s one on page one where it says Denise Lee instead of Michael Woodhouse. So that\u2019s the difference that I did find.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EWhat it would do, if we revive this bill, is it would keep women on low rates. Now, I\u2019ll explain because I think what has been kept from some of the members on the other side of the House is the big problem with this bill is in clause 24. So if you look at \u201CIdentifying appropriate comparators\u201D, what this section of the bill does is it forces women through their unions to firstly identify appropriate male comparators in their employer\u2019s business, then similar businesses to their employer, then the same sector or industry, and only then, according to this bill, could they use comparators outside their industry. I know that the member Michael Woodhouse, back in July, called this a very straightforward and practical process, but what I\u2019ve just run you through hardly sounds like a practical process to me. This bill would\u2019ve made it much harder for employees to file pay equity claims directly, and it would\u2019ve slowed down significantly any of these pay equity claims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ESo just to reiterate, this bill before us today is exactly the same bill as the previous Government tried to rush through. It\u2019s not practical, it\u2019s not fair, and it\u2019s actually completely inconsistent with the court decisions. It\u2019s not consistent with the recommendations from that working group that the member Michael Woodhouse referred to. It\u2019s actually omitted the recommendations made by that joint working group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThe previous National Government has pretended it\u2019s leading the way, but it\u2019s only because they have to. They have to because they couldn\u2019t win in court so they made this legislation, which basically does the opposite from what the agreement had done. It does not support women, it does the opposite. This coalition Government has already reconvened that joint working group on equal pay. They\u2019ve reported back with recommendations, and these recommendations are going to be very soon considered at Cabinet. What will happen from that process is that that will result in a much better bill. So I have great pleasure to not recommend this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u002273e46350e13b45fab68cfb1c94cda19b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273e46350e13b45fab68cfb1c94cda19b\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I do feel as if I need to put on record the fact that this is a members\u2019 day, this is a member\u2019s bill, and one of the key opportunities to improve legislation is to have it go to a select committee. So to have a coalition Government that purports to be supportive of women\u2019s equality who won\u2019t even allow a piece of legislation that will reduce, if not eliminate, discrimination for women in the workplace in terms of both their terms and conditions and their pay is outrageous. It is absolutely outrageous that they won\u2019t even allow a piece of legislation to go forward to a select committee for the ability for the New Zealand public\u2014and, as my colleague the Hon Michael Woodhouse said before, we recognise that the new Government has a slightly different take on some aspects of the solution to pay equity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EWell, why not use the legislation? The first opportunity was the bill that was previously before the House that the Labour Government discharged with immediacy\u2014I think one of only two that were discharged\u2014but no, they didn\u2019t want to talk about it then. This is the second opportunity, brought by my fantastic colleague Denise Lee, for the Parliament to discuss and debate the issue, for the Government of the day to provide input in terms of what improvements they would see, but no. What does the current Government say? More women up and down this country will be forced, because of their delays, to go through the agonising process of going to court, when we want to make a simple, practical solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe other thing I do want to do and put on record is that I\u2019m really offended on behalf of the joint working group previously led by Dame Patsy Reddy. I\u2019m offended on their behalf that the previous speaker, or the one before that from the Green Party, was so scathing and dismissive of the months of work put in by business, by unions, and by the Government to come up with a solution: a set of principles, that was workable, practical, and fair. I do want to just put on the record of the House my utter disgust that a member of this House would disregard the months of work that was entered into in good faith\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022309418000d37469089bcd96a161ef604\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wonder if you\u2019d consider two things. Firstly, I take offence at what that member is saying about my speech. It\u2019s completely misrepresenting what I said. Secondly, the previous member, Michael Woodhouse\u2014most of his speech was about his experience in drafting the original legislation, which then I was unable to speak to during my speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7561e56328c4822aeb72df6b2718747\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, I didn\u2019t hear the comment that you took offence to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219d5d44021ff472caf023f45b5fe35a0\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: She implied that I was putting in to disrepute the previous joint working group, which is ridiculous. I did no such thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8a519f7383c4499bb06ad9e0846e8db\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I don\u2019t think that you can take offence on behalf of someone else, particularly if they\u2019re not even parliamentarians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ffab94fc812425e94c795b283a3057e\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: What I take offence at is that member\u2019s characterisation or mischaracterisation of my entire speech and what I was saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022474486ea4f094fdab1b79a418993a8d4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that is a debatable point and I think the member herself said she found it very hard to make a polite speech. So I\u2019ll ask Louise Upston to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236ff9d6949cc455aae2b995eb7f7f947\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. So the issue here\u2014and I don\u2019t think there would be any member of Parliament in this House that wants to see further delays in real solutions and real pay increases for real New Zealand women. Unfortunately, by members opposite not supporting this legislation to go forward to the select committee, that\u2019s exactly what\u2019s happening. We\u2019ve heard lots of talk from them\u2014we\u2019ve heard lots of talk about their intentions and what they want to do. Where\u2019s the legislation? Where\u2019s the time frame? What is that side doing about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo in terms of results, absolutely, we know that pay equity is a significant part of reducing the gender pay gap. We\u2019ve seen significant reductions in that since 1998, so over the last 20 years we\u2019ve seen significant reductions. Part of that is resolving issues of pay equity, so it is really frustrating to stand in this Chamber and to know that members opposite are willing for women to wait, for women to have to go to court, like Kristine Bartlett did, and struggle for years, when this is a piece of legislation\u2014they have the ability to influence it and change it so that we do get outcomes for women. It\u2019s just unfortunate that that side of the House is unwilling to advance this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EIt is somewhat frustrating to hear the comments and the empty language and statements about their intentions when how you deliver for working women in New Zealand is through legislation making it easy for them to engage, not making them go to court to fight for it. This is a simple solution with the joint working group recommendations that business and unions and the Government agreed. So it\u2019s a sad day in this House when women aren\u2019t supported by the members opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022597e95934c2848b5962f70fbbd49df41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022597e95934c2848b5962f70fbbd49df41\u0022\u003EJAN TINETTI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise once again\u2014it won\u2019t be of any shock to people that I rise to oppose this Employment (Pay Equity and Equal Pay) Bill. But I would like to congratulate the member Denise Lee on having her bill drawn out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI too, like the colleague here beside me, would love to support this but I just will not be, because this bill does put things backwards for pay equity. It is not a great day for women. This is absolutely not a great day when we have these discussions in the House. That would take things backwards in the pay equity field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI have been in a female-dominated workforce my entire working career up until coming in to Parliament last year. I have worked as an educator, but the people that I look to in the pay equity space are the people that I worked very, very closely with, and they are our wonderful support staff who support wonderful, quality education in schools. They are tired of feeling undervalued; pay equity is their ray of hope. But one thing I would like to say is that they want to get this right. They don\u2019t want something that is rushed through and will not give them the pay equity that they deserve. They want to make certain that we, as a Government, get the pay equity legislation correct. That is why, as a Government, we reject this bill and rejected it in its last iteration as well, and we will reject it here this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe have been led by our Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern. We\u2019ve heard here tonight that she has said she will not rest until pay equity is achieved in New Zealand. But we need to make certain that we get that right. As I\u2019ve said, the legislation has to be correct so that we get that right and we make certain that this discussion becomes part of history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI have a dream that one day my sons will be able to have a conversation with their children that this was part of history: \u201CRemember the day they had the argument in the House about pay equity?\u201D We might have an Opposition who might laugh and trivialise it, but actually that shows their lack of regard for women and pay equity. It\u2019s an absolute lack of regard that we are seeing for them, that they don\u2019t want to take the time to get this right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThey have heard here tonight that the Joint Working Group on Pay Equity Principles has reported back to them with recommendations, which will be soon considered at Cabinet. But again we\u2019ve heard an absolute lack of regard around that. They want to make this harder for women and a more difficult space. There will be women shaking their heads at that reaction. They will be shaking their heads that people don\u2019t want to get this right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI\u2019m confused as to why an Opposition would put up another piece of legislation when we are working on a progressive approach to pay equity. It is incredibly confusing that you would put another piece of legislation on top of this. This bill would make it harder, not easier, for any future Kristine Bartletts to win their landmark pay equity settlements. Kristine Bartlett was a hero, an absolute hero, in this pay equity space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe need to see other professions and other people having those wins as well. This piece of legislation would set that back. This would force parties to a pay equity claim to get bogged down in arguments about sometimes irrelevant comparisons with the treatment of people doing different jobs in other sectors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI think that we are having a conversation this evening that was absolutely unnecessary. We have got the working group recommendations. We need to see those come through, and that will happen incredibly shortly. I have no hesitation in saying that this is a poor bill and I would not be recommending it to go further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022 data-id=\u00220019eacb35034bc4a8372d7bc151b578\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220019eacb35034bc4a8372d7bc151b578\u0022\u003EDENISE LEE (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It\u2019s beyond belief that this is the point that we\u2019ve reached. Throughout this debate, the Government has rubbished this bill, piece by piece, and I am disappointed that they are so clearly misrepresenting the framework that it sets up with political point-scoring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EHow can the Government honestly say that this bill is so fundamentally flawed, filled with so many holes that can\u2019t be fixed by later debates, when the principles that this bill is founded on have been reconfirmed by not one but two individual working groups? These working groups were operating under National and Labour Governments, with input from business and unions alike. The hard work has already been done, and this bill is ready now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EWhat we have here is the only real progress towards pay equity that anyone has seen since August 2017. We have heard, and it\u2019s been quoted tonight by the other side\u2014we\u2019ve heard the Prime Minister say, \u201CWe will not rest until we have pay equity in New Zealand.\u201D Well, if they had stepped up when they had the chance, they would be able to be resting by now. In 2017, they voted against the first reading of this bill. That was eight months ago. They then took this bill off the Parliament\u2019s agenda. That was five months ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EJust six weeks ago, this bill was pulled from the ballot and in all that time we still have not seen any meaningful action from this Government towards pay equity. Instead, it seems they are actively holding it up. How can they say with credibility, any credibility, that pay equity and closing the gender pay gap are priorities for this Government, when they continue to delay any action? Instead, they choose to wait\u2014wait for another working group, wait to introduce legislation. They are keeping the women of New Zealand waiting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003ELet me point out something so simple and so obvious. It must be that the Government cares more about their politics, their pride, and their partisanship, than they do about getting a solution for women in this country now. How do I know that? It is because they could use their numbers to amend this bill. They could send this bill to select committee right now and, if necessary, they could make any changes to bring it up to the standards that they expect. The Government could arrest right now what will end up being months and months of delay\u2014and it looks like there\u2019s going to be an 18-month delay for when women will actually be able to lodge a claim. Women across New Zealand deserve the opportunity to submit and voice their opinions on this bill to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EI would like to thank tonight the speakers who joined me on my team\u2014all formidable colleagues who have slogged on this topic immeasurably more than I have. I\u2019m humbled by their faith in me, to attempt to carry the flag. I would like to thank Amy Adams, Michael Woodhouse, Louise Upston, and Paula Bennett for her counsel. I call on the other side of the House to picture women they know, women they\u2019ve met, women who have worked, and women who have grown tired both physically and emotionally with the weight of being undervalued, and then do the right thing. We have an obligation to vote this to its next stage so that we can engage with women in this idea. The women of New Zealand deserve progress now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question that the Employment (Pay Equity and Equal Pay) Bill be now read a first time. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00229afcfd251045412ca0bd208fa64715c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229afcfd251045412ca0bd208fa64715c2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, there will be silence while the votes are being taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221725081007f743eab1d81d29d53e382d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Employment (Pay Equity and Equal Pay) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c52c123cde2c4c608555d5712d80525d\u0022\u003EHealth and Safety at Work (Volunteer Associations) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002264a9f835710144b0b399500b49ea014b\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022244ff8db3b26470d8572b3c94f4f7df0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022244ff8db3b26470d8572b3c94f4f7df0\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Health and Safety at Work (Volunteer Associations) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Education and Workforce Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe Health and Safety at Work Act 2015 came into force on 4 April 2016, so it\u2019s coincidental that today, 4 April 2018, I address this House and its members with a proposal to amend a provision of the Act as it affects volunteer associations, to amend the section 17 definition of a PCBU\u2014that\u2019s a person conducting a business or undertaking\u2014so that that definition does not include a volunteer association and does not include an association for which any person or persons are employed or engaged to carry out paid work for the association for greater than 100 hours per week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EIt is also coincidental that inheriting this bill\u2014it brought with it some measure of volunteered goodwill and fortuitous timings. I signed it off for a slot in the ballot biscuit tin on the afternoon of Wednesday, 21 February 2018. On Thursday, 22 February 2018, it was drawn at noon, and this evening I stand with this quick-draw bill and much goodwill, seeking the House and members to afford and volunteer their support to what I submit is a well-intentioned bill, less the price of overregulation and unnecessary, costly compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ENational is committed to not only improving but refining workplace health and safety and its laws. The Health and Safety at Work Act 2015 was approximately five years in the making, as you well know, long-serving members of this House. The catalyst for the overhaul of New Zealand\u2019s health and safety law was considered to be the Pike River mining disaster in November 2010 and the Christchurch earthquakes in September 2010 and February 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe major changes introduced by the bill are the classification of a PCBU\u2014as I\u2019ve referred, persons that are conducting a business or undertaking; the primary duty holder. Also, a positive duty of due diligence on those in senior management roles, and a tiered, more stringent penalty regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EVolunteer associations play an active and important part in Aotearoa New Zealand. They are diverse. Around a third of New Zealanders undertake voluntary work for an organisation, placing New Zealand consistently in the top five countries for donating our time. The latest detailed information, from a 2013 Statistics New Zealand data release on non-profit institutions (NPIs), shows that there are a total of 114,110 NPIs; 11,003 of those employ staff, and of those, 7,505 organisations employ between one to five staff, so the majority employ less than five staff. Approximately 1.3 million volunteers and 136,750 salary and wage earners work for NPIs. However, the reality of the volunteer sector is that there are diminishing numbers of volunteers, capacity, and input, and increasing demands of administrative operational tasks, regulatory compliance, and responsibilities requiring a range of volunteer associations to have to employ a person or persons usually for targeted or specialised or specific tasks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo this simple, pragmatic change proposed by way of this bill will make it easier and less onerous for those small volunteer organisations that employ staff for not greater than 100 hours per week\u2014an equivalent of 2.5 full-time employees\u2014by exclusion from the definition of PCBUs; an exemption from the ambit of the bill. Volunteering New Zealand\u2019s State of Volunteering 2016 report and its 2017 overview of the sector provides anecdotal information that volunteer associations believe that legislative requirements, particularly health and safety, are a deterrent to volunteering, slowing down the recruitment process, and costing precious time and resources. The time and cost of compliance and regulation is killing the volunteer sector in New Zealand. Red tape and paperwork doesn\u2019t save lives; it crushes the dreams and aspirations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EAs a result of the Act\u2019s regulatory focus, there\u2019s been a shift in the role of managers of volunteers to more administration, compliance-orientated, and less person-orientated. There\u2019s an unwillingness of people to take on such voluntary roles, which could have a negative impact on the volunteer section in communities. So many organisations are incurring considerable expense to get advice on, and implement, health and safety compliance standards, whilst, however, accepting, of course, that all organisations, voluntary or commercial, have legal and moral duties and responsibilities of care and health and safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe definition of a PCBU in the Act specifically excludes volunteer associations where none of the volunteers employs any person to carry out work for the association. So a central element of the definition refers to \u201Cemploys\u201D. Consequently, a voluntary organisation that is entirely voluntary and does not have any employees is excluded from the Act. The Act also creates a primary duty of care for all PCBUs to ensure, as far as is reasonably practicable, the health and safety of their workers, of other workers, and of other people who are not put at risk by the PCBU\u2019s activities. The Act also imposes significant penalties on PCBUs that fail to meet these obligations\u2014up to $300,000 for an individual, $600,000 for an officer, and $3 million for an organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EHealth and safety is an important responsibility for all organisations, including those in the voluntary sector. However, it\u2019s so important that concern for avoiding risk and responsibility does not stifle the activities of voluntary organisations. The amendment is simple, reasonable, and pragmatic, such that any volunteer association which cannot afford to rely on volunteer services is afforded to employ to keep the volunteer service viable, and may employ a person for no more than 100 hours per week. It is not deemed a PCBU and is exempt from the Act, but\u2014here\u2019s the catch\u2014still has a legal duty of care and responsibility. Many fail to comprehend that volunteer associations which are not PCBUs\u2014in other words, do not pay or employ staff and do not fall within the limitations of the Act\u2014are still bound by legal principles of duty, care, obligations, and responsibilities in relation to health and safety under civil and tort law and are accountable by law, just not under the Act. So there are still general legal principles that apply and create obligations for all voluntary organisations in relation to health and safety, whether they are PCBUs or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo, in summary, voluntary organisations that are not covered by the Act should still, and do, actively take steps to protect the health and safety of those affected by their activities, although legal liability for the organisation and its officers is unlikely and limited by the ACC regime\u2014yes; we do have ACC here in this country, which is a scheme that generally prevents liability for personal injury but it does not prevent claims for property damage arising from negligence. So under the ACC regime it\u2019s not limited by that. Prudent steps to protect health and safety should still be taken, and are to be taken, in order to protect the organisation\u2019s volunteers and users of its services, protect the organisation\u2019s reputation and funding, limit the risk of negligence claims for property damage, and limit the risk of negligence claims for personal injury arising from gross negligence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, this bill is about recognising and valuing the value, recognition, and importance of the volunteer sector in Aotearoa New Zealand, heeding the concerns of voluntary organisations reliant on the goodwill of volunteer services and limited funds. This bill will\u2014should members of this House permit and support it\u2014permit and support our voluntary sector and volunteer associations in their ability not to be bound by the stringent and onerous conditions under the Health and Safety at Work Act. So I implore that you don\u2019t kill this bill and that you don\u2019t kill the goodwill and volunteer time of all of our volunteers in the sector. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00221293d30328c44b72882abed75abd9975\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221293d30328c44b72882abed75abd9975\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. It is indeed a great pleasure to speak and provide this party\u2019s\u2014the Labour Party\u2019s\u2014perspective on the Health and Safety at Work (Volunteer Associations) Amendment Bill. I\u2019d like to take the opportunity to acknowledge the member Harete Hipango for putting forward this bill and her good fortune in getting it pulled out of the ballot. I take her word that this is well intended. However, it is a poorly drafted bill that actually misses the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe framing of the opening address was to make this bill about volunteer organisations\u2014to acknowledge the fact that volunteer organisations across the country are struggling to recruit volunteers. This is fair. I\u2019m a volunteer myself, as I am sure many on the Opposition benches and the Government benches are. Throughout my life I have worked in many volunteer organisations, and they have all struggled to recruit people that are willing to give up their time and to volunteer their services to their community and the organisation. But the solution to that issue is not what is being proposed today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt is simply not acceptable that we create a distinction where some workers can be exempt from the protections of health and safety in the workplace while others continue to enjoy them. It should not matter who your employer may be; you should have the same protections and provisions that the rest of us enjoy whilst you are in employment. It does not matter if you work for a small community organisation or, indeed, a large corporation; there should be no meddling from Government\u2014or Parliament, I should say\u2014into the protections that we enjoy in terms of health and safety. That is the fundamental point here in this Labour Party\u2019s opposition to this bill: that no worker should go to work with less provisions and less protections than the rest of us enjoy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat is being proposed here, in the Health and Safety at Work (Volunteer Associations) Amendment Bill, essentially, removes those employed by volunteer associations up to 100 hours a week\u2014so, essentially, 2\u00BD full-time equivalents\u2014away from worker status. So I had a look at the bill. I\u2019ve got it here. What this bill would do is create a very strange loophole in the Health and Safety at Work Act where volunteer associations and those that work for them are exempted from pretty basic provisions. If you\u2019ll allow me, Madam Deputy Speaker, to read, I want to just point this out to the House. They\u2019d be exempted from the primary duty of care to ensure that as far as reasonably practicable they ensure the health and safety of their workers and others\u2014that\u2019s section 36. They\u2019d be exempted from a ban on levying workers for health and safety, charging them to provide protective equipment, or requiring workers to provide their own\u2014section 27. They would be exempt from a duty to engage with workers on health and safety\u2014section 58. It\u2019s important to note that what is \u201Creasonably practicable\u201D for an organisation to do includes a consideration of all relevant matters, and that this will include the resources available to an organisation. We simply cannot allow those workers that work for these organisations to be exempt from such pretty basic provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThere would also be an exemption on a ban requiring workers to avoid work where they do not have the required qualifications or authorisation to do that work. That is of grave concern. Because these employees would not be considered workers under the Act, they\u2019re also exempt from, for example, duties to take reasonable care for their own health and safety or that of others, or to follow reasonable instructions relating to health and safety\u2014section 45\u2014and also exempted from their ability to refuse to carry out unsafe work. Let\u2019s just consider that for a moment. A worker, regardless of whether they are employed by a large organisation or a community volunteer group, should have the ability to refuse to carry out unsafe work. But the implication of this bill, as it is written and as it is proposed, would remove that right from workers for volunteer organisations. It\u2019s absolutely unacceptable in New Zealand in 2018 that some workers in this country can be forced to carry out unsafe work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThere is no way that the Labour Party, with our proud history of ensuring workers\u2019 rights, can support such a bill that would take away such a right. In the original Act, the Health and Safety at Work Act 2015, a volunteer association is defined, in section 17(2), as \u201Ca group of volunteers (whether incorporated or unincorporated) working together for 1 or more community purposes where none of the volunteers, whether alone or jointly with any other volunteers, employs any person to carry out the work [of that] volunteer association.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIf we want to ensure that people have the time and the capacity and the ability to volunteer, this is not the way to go about it. The question of volunteer associations having person-conducting-a-business-or-undertaking (PCBU) duties was actually fully discussed at the select committee at the time of the health and safety at work legislation in 2015. The exclusion of volunteer associations that do not employ any workers repeated the position under the former Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, there were submissions on the health and safety legislation with similar proposals to the current member\u2019s bill in terms of increasing the employee threshold for volunteer associations. These were not accepted. We\u2019ve been here before: in a bill that the previous Government brought through, which went through select committee, this exact issue was brought up, considered, and discussed by that member\u2019s very own party. Where we\u2019ve also been before is when we start to meddle with the exclusions around access to basic health and safety provisions. I ask members of this House\u2014perhaps those members on my own side might remember the last time that the National Party meddled with health and safety, we ended up with the worm farm debacle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI wonder if members in this House remember when the National Party proposed that worm farming was more dangerous than farming\u2014than the agriculture industry. This is an absolute nonsense. There is a principle at stake here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022749b7d6287834ac2bb31cfccf9e5cf98\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: The worms bite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b59f834646246c0893da419e91d05ae\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: The worms do bite, Mr Little. You\u2019re right. I didn\u2019t consider that. I guess perhaps a bucket may have been tipped on somebody\u2019s head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut the fact is, once again, there is a principle at stake here. No one, regardless of what the job is or whom they work for, should go to their work having less protections for health and safety than anyone else. We expect a basic level of protection, and this bill takes it away. It proposes to take it away for those organisations that would hire a worker up to 2\u00BD full-time equivalence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been advised that WorkSafe is not aware of any particular issues with volunteer or community associations having unreasonable obligation placed on them or compliance issues with regard to their health and safety acquirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ELife would be easier if there were no regulations. Life would be easier if there were no rules, but just because you don\u2019t like them doesn\u2019t mean you should remove them, because we\u2019re talking about the health and safety of people that work for a living. It is totally unacceptable that we could even consider supporting it, even though I acknowledge it has good intentions. The implications, perhaps unintended, of this bill are not acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe fact is that the Labour Party will not be supporting this bill and will be taking every opportunity to speak, strongly opposing it. Once again, we cannot undermine the simple rights and privileges that workers have fought over generations to preserve in this country. The Labour Party once again will be standing up for those workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u00227c4dbd94be97455693f89316e41d7be9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c4dbd94be97455693f89316e41d7be9\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Kieran McAnulty has actually now, sort of, carved out a reputation as the filibuster king of the bills. He either speaks off the bill and has to be corrected, to be brought on to the bill, and when he does speak on the bill, he actually doesn\u2019t read the bill. He\u2019s gone on and on. He\u2019s talked about\u2014he\u2019s waxed lyrical about a whole lot of things bar talking about the bill. So what that tells us very clearly is that he\u2019s carved his reputation. He tried to be sympathetic and empathetic about all of the things there, but what Mr McAnulty doesn\u2019t know\u2014and if I was to ask him\u2014is how many not-for-profit organisations are out there in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a79f713ea5ac4a5e808c49557e3ca806\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: A few.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298d497ca336246f0b8e6e85b0216cd76\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO\u003C/span\u003E: 114,932. How many charitable registered trusts are there? 27,900.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022555b922604c44b5d9ec051b1819ce4d8\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b0b611f68814f228fc690d9607d6d0d\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. So what\u2019s the current contribution to GDP? 4.4 percent of the GDP, which equates to $9.4 billion. So the member can talk a lot about his experiences and what\u2019s out there, but if he did a little bit of work, if he concentrated on the bill, he\u2019d realise what this bill is actually trying to do. We live in a country where people are generous\u2014and thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180404bae50d7ddb0b4acdab99d674a4b75102000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"