"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d0f9918efe994db28ab6931da9da1c46\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 12 JUNE 2018\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb7d589ed4b14b178403a99c0527caa1\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 12 JUNE 2018\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c08b326ec7940fe919773a088a0d6a9\u0022\u003EObituaries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229fac5d4ec9f14ac9b676f0550c7d15c6\u0022\u003EJohn Baldwin Munro, QSO\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002261ee469daf8f4720ac2d790a6259b552\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261ee469daf8f4720ac2d790a6259b552\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I regret to inform the House of the death on 4 June 2018 of John Baldwin Munro, QSO, who represented the electorate of Invercargill from 1972 to 1975. I desire, on behalf of this House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the late former member. I now ask members to stand with me and observe a period of silence as a mark of respect for his memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EHonourable members stood as a mark of respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c2ca2cd24c045beb3f1fad7b69bc953\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c45f43902e1b41da851203ee438d631d\u0022\u003EKenya\u2014Select Committee on Members\u2019 Services and Facilities\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7225d55c9fd40bb88b147ec4ce09085\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7225d55c9fd40bb88b147ec4ce09085\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure that members would wish to welcome delegates from the Select Committee on Members\u2019 Services and Facilities, from the Kenyan House of Representatives, led by Vice-Chairperson Ms Catherine Wanjiku Waruguru, who are present in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c6dd388f77742be98b747180284fb3c\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aacef681023e4d27af778c4fd3880c22\u0022\u003EKermadec/Rangit\u0101hua Ocean Sanctuary Bill\u2014Leave to Introduce\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00225fb62fe134c64252b20afc4341debf14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fb62fe134c64252b20afc4341debf14\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave for the Kermadec/Rangit\u0101hua Ocean Sanctuary Bill, in my name, to be introduced and set down for first reading as members\u2019 order of the day No. 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002213d5ffc45a994e599f17da2765fb9cd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213d5ffc45a994e599f17da2765fb9cd4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that? There is. It will not be set down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223031984afed44a059df47f6c39007135\u0022\u003EMinisterial Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab02815d2258483c9ca9128c90180bb1\u0022\u003EMycoplasma Bovis\u2014Government Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00220c6a030ae0c94b48b971769fef870825\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c6a030ae0c94b48b971769fef870825\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to make a ministerial statement in regard to Mycoplasma bovis. A fortnight ago, Cabinet approved a phased eradication plan to remove Mycoplasma bovis from the country\u2019s cattle herds. That decision came after much work and discussion with industry groups. These groups, including Dairy New Zealand, Beef and Lamb, Federated Farmers, rural support trusts, the Dairy Companies Association of New Zealand, and the Meat Industry Association, backed eradicating the disease, which has an impact on the health of cattle, including high mortality among calves, mastitis, high rates of abortions, and reduced milk production. The eradication plan is likely to cost more than $850 million over 10 years, with industry groups contributing 32 percent of that. I\u2019d like to thank them for their contribution, not just in terms of investment but the expertise they are supplying on the ground.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESince the announcement two weeks ago, I have visited many parts of the country to talk to farmers and ensure that the response is taking into account the needs of people on the ground. Most farmers I talked to support phased eradication while acknowledging it will be difficult. Although the eradication programme is predicted to affect less than 1 percent of the national herd, it is tough financially and emotionally for farmers and families whose animals are infected by the disease. I want farmers to know that this Government and their industry leaders are committed to helping them and their families, because they are taking the hit for the other 99 percent of farmers in our efforts to stop Mycoplasma bovis going through the entire national herd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ETo that end, the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) has streamlined its compensation process and boosted its compensation team to 35 people. By the end of this week, we will have paid out nearly $11 million in compensation, but this is an area where I\u2019m constantly pushing for improvement. I instructed the ministry to tap into even more on-farm expertise to help people on the ground with compensation claims and difficulties they face when placed under movement control. Moving to phased eradication has allowed MPI to work with industry partners to bring in more people with practical farming experience. There are now 40 people from industry groups on the ground helping farmers. More than 250 people are working on the response. The rural support trusts are doing great work, and we\u2019re funding them to ensure people get the help they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn the past fortnight, I can report that the number of farms under regulatory control has been reduced from 300 to about 180. This is likely to change as the response progresses. The reduction is mainly due to farms under notice of direction being tested, cleared, and allowed to get on with business as usual. The number of properties with confirmed infections recently reduced from 39 to 36, as a result of properties completing the culling and disinfection process. The culling of some 24,000 animals on 28 of those infected properties has been completed, allowing them to go into the disinfectant stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn total, 44 farms have been identified since July 2017, with eight now cleaned and cleared of Mycoplasma bovis. We expect to find more infected properties in coming months as part of the normal tracking and tracing of animal movements. We\u2019ve started to make improvements to the national animal tracing system and are committed to improving biosecurity standards and laws to ensure that they are fit for purpose. We will be tougher on enforcing the rules that protect us from biosecurity incursions. This is a big and complex challenge for all of us, but I\u2019m committed to learning from mistakes made and improving the response where required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank the farming community for the necessary honesty and support. I\u2019d like to thank the Opposition for backing our eradication plan and my colleagues for their support in Cabinet. In the next few months, there will be more challenges for us all as we attempt to do something no other place in the world has achieved\u2014that\u2019s eradicate Mycoplasma bovis. When I look to countries like Ireland, which are grappling with growing problems from M. bovis, I\u2019m convinced that we have to do our utmost to remove the disease from Kiwi farms. If there comes a time when we must give up the fight, then we will appraise that with a clear eye after more bulk testing of milk in the spring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe Government knows how vital the primary sector is to New Zealand\u2019s economic success, and that is why we\u2019ve made this investment to eradicate Mycoplasma bovis. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00221f82dc8c204e46b98f863079cabd5bf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f82dc8c204e46b98f863079cabd5bf9\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party stands and supports the Government\u2019s plan to eradicate this terrible cattle disease here in New Zealand. Finally farmers have some certainty. As I move around the country, I hear from a lot of farmers and not all of them agree with this plan. We should take this opportunity to see if we can, as a country, eradicate this disease. We have a proven track record: three Queensland fruit fly responses meant that we could eradicate that from New Zealand, and I\u2019m heartened to hear from officials that it\u2019s likely that pea weevil will be eradicated in Wairarapa, which will be a first around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ENo Minister can stop any incursions from occurring in New Zealand. There are 175,000 items that cross our border a day; 5 million people choose to come to New Zealand a year. I hear often that people say, maybe, from time to time when they\u2019re under pressure or under the pump, \u201COh well, just close the border down. Just stop people coming. Just stop trading.\u201D Well, the reality is, if we did that it would collapse the New Zealand economy. And, of course, if we did that, there\u2019s no guarantee that something could not indeed blow into New Zealand like myrtle rust did, or indeed swim into New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIf we have a look at our record in Government, in Budget 2017 biosecurity spending got to the highest ever\u2014an all-time high of about $250 million: more people on the front line, boosting the dog detector team up from 40 to 60, making sure we\u2019ve got modern X-ray equipment, investing $90 million in the biocontainment facility in Wallaceville, which is near completion, that will be focused on these exotic animal diseases. Also, moving forward, looking out to Biosecurity 2025, ensuring that we have a huge amount of awareness happening with New Zealanders\u20144.7 million New Zealanders should be more aware of biosecurity then what they are currently. We\u2019ve heard from the Minister of Agriculture and there\u2019s been a lot of discussion about the cause of M. bovis. It is within the farm gate. It is a productivity issue that causes lameness, pneumonia, flu-like symptoms, and abortion. We don\u2019t want it in New Zealand. Unfortunately, it is here, and now we have an opportunity to eradicate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI remember when the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) rang me over the weekend of 21 July and said it was likely that it was here. Then I briefed Cabinet to make sure that MPI had resources to stand up to the response. Those farms in particular were locked down. We made sure that the testing and the tracing was done. We reached out to international scientists. Public meetings were held. When we left office, there were seven infected farms in \u014C\u0101maru, and since then, it has spread to other parts of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been quite a bit of discussion and debate about Cook Strait\u2014whether the inter-island stock transportation should be closed down. It was interesting to hear from officials, saying \u201CThere are no clear benefits. It would be incredibly disruptive and costly, and there\u2019s about 85,000 cattle that move from the South to the North each year.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also going to be timely for MPI to update New Zealanders, and, in particular, farmers and rural communities\u2014where are they up to with their ongoing investigation? That is one thing that farmers want to know, and at some point soon I\u2019m looking forward to hearing from MPI where they are up to with their investigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWe heard also from the Minister about the problems with the National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT) scheme. It came in in a phased roll-out in 2012 to 2015. The review was kicked off by this Government in 2016. I think it\u2019s fair to say that the Operational Solutions for Primary Industries New Zealand board need to take some responsibility for not doing the compliance of NAIT and not handing that over to MPI to follow through on those farmers that, indeed, may have been neglectful in their responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ENow that the decision has been made to eradicate, it\u2019s going to be very important to support these farmers who are taking one for the team. Rural support trust do a great job, but we need to be very mindful of the toll that this will have on farming families up and down the country. It\u2019s great to hear that the Government has stepped up and responded to our concerns about fast and fair compensation, and now that is going to occur within a few days, so well done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u00222b930cd944c346f9a6ee335a10f870a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b930cd944c346f9a6ee335a10f870a2\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support this measure of eradication of Mycoplasma bovis, and I would commend the Minister on his leadership in this matter and, as the previous speaker, Nathan Guy, has mentioned, on the fact that the certainty we have been seeking as a sector is now there. I would like to also acknowledge the leadership we have seen from the likes of Dairy New Zealand, Federated Farmers, and Beef and Lamb New Zealand, and the rural support trusts have also been mentioned. These organisations have come in behind, and I think it is incredibly important that we show a united front. I would actually include the Opposition in this list as well, because the last thing we needed was political bickering. We need to be getting behind our farmers. We\u2019ve made the call; let\u2019s get in behind and eradicate this disease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESome farmers have questioned the validity of doing this\u2014whether it\u2019s actually a serious enough disease to have taken this measure. I would not agree. I think the previous speaker, the Hon Nathan Guy, mentioned the list of afflictions that it causes, but what he didn\u2019t mention was the mortality rate within calves, and what we\u2019ve seen down south is that rate up to 30 percent. Our cattle are na\u00EFve to this disease, and if it became widespread within our industry they would be very, very vulnerable. I would also point out that within the beef industry, if this was to get into the beef breeding herd, where the calf is the primary source of income, that would be devastating and actually almost clean out that section of farming. So that probably hasn\u2019t been acknowledged as much as it should be, but it\u2019s the reason why Beef and Lamb New Zealand have been so proactive in this, so we thank those industry organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI would also just reiterate the words that have been said about the farmers who are, essentially, going to be sacrificing their herds for the national good. I have a friend, actually, who has got a herd that has been tested positive and who has stud cattle, the breeding of which goes back 100 years. The distress in that family is incredible, it\u2019s immense, and that is replicated, of course, around the other farmers, but we must not forget them. We must get in behind our rural support trusts and resource them as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI think the financial commitment\u2014that\u2019s the other thing; I\u2019d like to thank Cabinet actually. When you\u2019re doing a Budget process, Minister Robertson, there is so much call on the nation\u2019s finances. There are so many worthy causes. But you have seen the merit of this. You have put in significant funding that, quite rightly, people could argue could have been going somewhere else, but you as a Cabinet have stood up, recognised this disease, the importance to the agricultural community and our wider economy, and backed us all the way. And whilst a response on the ground may have been left wanting in some areas and needs to lift\u2014and, hopefully, is lifting\u2014there is no sense that this has not been fully supported from on high, and we thank our leadership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EJust on that, I\u2019d call all members to be in touch with their farming community\u2014those that they know\u2014because sometimes the response on the ground isn\u2019t the same as the official advice that we\u2019re getting. So keep in touch with those people. Make sure that we\u2019re feeding that advice back to the Ministry for Primary Industries, because that is an important element.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EOf course, the whole debacle around the National Animal Identification and Tracing system (NAIT)\u2014that hasn\u2019t been good enough. We know that. That will be a discussion, I think, for later. But we need the lessons of this to be learnt. They will be hard-won, but as a nation we pride ourselves on leading the world in agriculture, and if any country can beat this, it will be us. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2265a5641024bd6a4cfdce1e753addb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2265a5641024bd6a4cfdce1e753addb\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you. I\u2019ll just take a brief opportunity to thank all parties in the House for their support\u2014the coalition partners in particular. This is a huge amount of commitment and funding from taxpayers to this movement\u2014the reason being that this affects 65 percent of our export earnings. The livestock sector is significant. We are doing our very best to support them through a difficult challenge. We can give them an assurance that regarding the National Animal Identification and Tracing system, the 38 recommendations that came from an independent review are being looked at. Each and every one of them will be implemented\u201423 of them without legislation\u2014as quickly as we can, and then we will be back to the House to bring in the other ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I just say, in summary, this is a time for cooperation and honesty across the farming sector. We will not beat this without the support of farmers, and they will not beat it without supporting one another. So we want some honesty in terms of tracing, so that we can track and trace every possible infected animal. We want some cooperation among farmers to help one another, when some will come under huge pressure emotionally, and we want someone to reach out and help them. Together we can do this, and we can eradicate this disease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e8bde5970118457ab2b2b24b59be04fc\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d76a51af5cae4e93bd4284c09246c628\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227973b6d0305048c88ede2fc699687832\u0022\u003EJustice System\u2014Three-strikes Legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022a35500cc67fc4aa5ae529cb6b99a83fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a35500cc67fc4aa5ae529cb6b99a83fc\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in her Minister of Justice and all of her Government\u2019s justice policies and decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa8e5c6286f1437daf3255c84b48b5d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa8e5c6286f1437daf3255c84b48b5d7\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes, and yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5efb05f5a1047b58c4defa2f4c1738e\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Was the proposed repeal of three strikes discussed at a Cabinet committee before the justice Minister announced it was his intention to take it to yesterday\u2019s full Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebfaee01eb3540dc9dfac172cf921156\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is that a number of proposals to do with serious reform of our justice system have been presented to Cabinet committees. The answer to that is that a number of those proposals are going to be taken forward, all the way to August, and a serious\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228774321283ec4248b66ba34b3be72156\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: So it went to Cabinet committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5216d3fc33b40d4b1eb01500f162fed\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is\u2014you wait and see, all right? It\u2019s not a yes; it\u2019s not a no. It\u2019s time for you to be patient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223caa5949761044baab54cafe16f4da23\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked, I think, a simple question about whether the repeal of three strikes went to a Cabinet committee before full Cabinet consideration, and I just want an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e158de01973b40fca4bf86c6d8f031fc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought I heard an answer\u2014the question was more than just addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e90742efb8f423a9d32d1d420a23799\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the justice Minister that New Zealand First Ministers \u201Cwere around the Cabinet table when Cabinet made the decision to authorise me to develop a package that has a number of aspects in it, including looking at the three strikes law. [It was] a Cabinet decision.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a4bea4d6bcc40208abfd86c3d270e97\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e192b0f489c3465c9de9277201cb9588\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: When the Justice Minister announced a proposed repeal of the three-strikes law, did he breach clause 5.16 of the Cabinet Manual, which states, \u201CMinisters are responsible for ensuring that consultation is undertaken in accordance with any coalition or support agreements entered into between political parties\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264257a6bc10e40899cb62ff51bf3c1e0\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b507be34d8a4279b3e5bb67b5aaf70f\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: So did Andrew Little follow good consultation processes, or, as he put it, \u201CIn order to get a proposal ready to go to Cabinet you go through a variety of hoops\u201D, and New Zealand First Ministers simply changed their minds on the repeal of three strikes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e106398996014990b681760ef03e41f2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say that Minister Little is a reforming Minister\u2014probably the most reformist Minister we\u2019ve had in decades. And because he has been putting all these ideas out for the public, there\u2019s no reason for him to swing from any of his statements at all. It looks like\u2014and it is\u2014an open Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ea3fddd54954bd8a95a465898ba466e\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: So is the position quite clear, then, from the Prime Minister\u2019s perspective, that this went through good Cabinet processes and consultation with support parties, and they simply changed their mind?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213eba52785b74f38ab409fff201592bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is in this Government, when people have heard all the facts, they do sometimes change their mind\u2014what does that member do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022178ee43097b147969c3f81f2dd08b7e7\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Why was a Cabinet paper of proposed criminal justice reforms, including a repeal of three strikes, pulled from yesterday\u2019s Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022863e4ebdfe99418e92665757f4c8876e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say that it was pulled because the visionary Minister of Justice decided that he wanted it pulled, and we agreed with him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297690459348c453aa5604bb4b38cc25e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the Prime Minister being the \u201Cwe\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c08051335a4a1d830af4c1a740c4d9\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014me and her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022795514a9da504c7b82fcc304d8f64f33\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What, then, was decided when the Minister of Justice and the Deputy Prime Minister met yesterday morning to discuss the three-strikes repeal law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022956ac6c549664deda66608d9c27b9e2c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister, I can\u2019t answer that question, for very obvious reasons. I simply wasn\u2019t there, and therefore I am not at liberty, like some members of Parliament, to take a wild guess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f004abf3463d46a4900ba1c8f5db9059\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Was Andrew Little correct when he told Radio New Zealand this morning, regarding the three-strikes repeal law, \u201CIt\u2019s still going to be considered. We are doing a comprehensive reform package for criminal justice reform, and all elements will be on the table.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228abd2d42e9e4e0c8313bd272a5256cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I say on behalf of the Prime Minister that it is the mark of wise government that you consider every possibility and every possibility\u2019s merits. That\u2019s what sound judicial reform looks like. It\u2019s not coming along with a bigoted, neo-liberal view of the world and seeking to implant that upon everybody, whether they want it or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4815445b5c341c1806d424682b0d0de\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: So is the Government\u2019s position that the three-strikes repeal legislation is still on, ultimately, the table?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a47a6086039b421185ad9e176e8477e3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister made it very clear on Morning Report, to which the member was part of the audience, what the Government\u2019s position is, and it is that this is a matter that\u2019s off the table for now. But\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0238dbd36ba46869c214cfc38efc129\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1101af663be45f5aeabd6627ae9b674\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014hang on\u2014this is a Government in for the long term, and I can quite envisage that downstream, as serious reforms do begin to work and we don\u2019t have the prisons being a moral and fiscal failure, which was Bill English\u2019s view, that we will look eventually at all aspects of reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ddf1b20e0f040608c7c17a94f323101\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister\u2019s position that the three-strikes repeal law is not off the table for all time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245588220717f4e0989830c77cb4b86c9\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: With the greatest respect, I answered that question with great clarity\u2014with great clarity\u2014and I do hate repeating myself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc88b832025e43ec8f52150db9d3d204\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: So Andrew Little was incorrect on Radio New Zealand this morning, when he said of the three-strikes repeal law \u201CIt\u2019s still going to be considered.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022876f298179fc44c7a13a2b87ed0398c1\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t hear the transcript about which that member speaks\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b40d410afd7a4a949ce7722dd6690553\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: But you\u2019re part of the audience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebf789d76fd8438fa0e1166203fe99c6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, I said he was, not me. Again, you\u2019ve got a listening problem, haven\u2019t you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226aa024e9c5ac48d394dc53b35ff55ce8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022401c820142444c419a16617fbcbab894\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: But, mind you, it\u2019s only one of your minor problems at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eac98ed1e715451b99611db3c621d9c2\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ve asked the Prime Minister a straight question about reported comments by the justice Minister, and he\u2019s saying he didn\u2019t hear them. That\u2019s simply not addressing what I\u2019ve asked him in a specific quote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c271f4a22544d3ba78e97c6e0c9089c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s point of order would have had some merit if the answer had not been diverted by the person sitting on his right. I am ruling that the question was addressed. I might have been more supportive, but Ms Bennett interjected and Mr Peters responded to that, and it meant that the answer was possibly not as good as the member might have wanted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022877cb1bbbf6549a997d01f3b9bb24bd3\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Does that ruling preclude the question being asked again and your taking a different approach to the answer to the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b806caaeb5864dbca6b64ff88d009e21\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t preclude the question being asked again, and if it\u2019s heard without that sort of interjection, then there\u2019ll be a higher standard for the reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d866017b45dd447585b1fb05fe609e4c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is the three-strikes repeal law still going to be considered, as the justice Minister has said this morning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220369082492784294b5529814c9cd0805\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It is the benchmark of wise government that all laws are constantly reviewed as to their veracity, as to their validity, and as to their soundness. In that sense, of course that law will be looked at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d92208d29e141a7a3c6a2c64e306193\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree the three-strikes law is the \u201Chigh-water mark of policy stupidity\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdab71c6ab5a41d6990dfe7840ac63be\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say on behalf of the Prime Minister that every member of this Parliament\u2019s entitled to their view. It\u2019s the hallmark of a democracy, and a party and a coalition that are capable of listening to different views.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218980d7fd67d4bca84d375e128d6ec0d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government having another advisory panel and summit on criminal justice, rather than having Cabinet consider options and get on with what\u2019s required in this area?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bfb3b44790b4794a2cfa219eefbd303\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Because, on behalf of the Prime Minister, we\u2019ve seen a massive increase in our numbers in prison. We faced building a mega-prison to accommodate between 2,000 and 3,000 people if we had not prepared to reform our laws to ensure they work. We\u2019re in danger of duplicating the American experience of massive incarceration per population. This is a reforming Government that knows we can do far better for the victims, the taxpayers, and, indeed, the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e490122a1e034f78bfe72875fafa05d1\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, why then isn\u2019t the Government repealing the three-strikes legislation that the Minister of Justice thinks is such stupid law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fa952ff37ca404b9f6c961cd3baf779\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister, this is no way to act as a Crown prosecutor\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b960b29db7094c9ba0627b684a1258db\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4fa69a92589429b93456305af1322df\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014bearing in mind he never ever held a warrant and is misclaiming that all the time. He never held a warrant. He never held a warrant because of some Crown prosecutor\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aaee04c99c0434b9d08ede08b689d96\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The question will be asked again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226aeaa300c99c4a41936ca4a2c72969d2\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the previous answer, why then is the Government not seeking or moving to repeal the three-strikes legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fd7ef4c508c4bffbf94ef94b0add69e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It was made very clear by the Prime Minister and others that at this time it\u2019s not a priority. That was very clearly set out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fc62f63d69d47898c4671233f65c9e0\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Which Cabinet process was better: the one around the three-strikes repeal proposal or the decision to ban offshore oil and gas exploration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c55c55aa20574fc481d96c1bdddc2269\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Apart from that being way off the mark of the primary question, I\u2019ll answer it. The reality is both of those decisions were typical of this Government. They were mine\u2014[Interruption] Yes, that\u2019s right. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef9ae114718e47a9a208760d7c225796\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The member will resume his seat. When I call for order\u2014Mr Bennett, Mr Bridges\u2014and most of his colleagues heard it and obeyed it, those members will as well. I\u2019ll remind people that not being orderly when called to order is grossly disorderly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c329a15e217144818df950abd4b7d616\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235c30e1630c74ef1b23bd0a328a316e7\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: We don\u2019t need to hear more answer\u2014it\u2019s all right, you\u2019ve answered it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc27b19235f94d08aaa63085a9c5fd15\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I want to complete it. No, no, the completed answer is this is typical of this Government, which has seen a serious rise in the Government\u2019s polling position, has seen a massive restoration, out of a Victoria University study, in the confidence in the Government. For the first time, we\u2019re above 50 percent\u2014in fact, we\u2019re above 60 percent. Now, I don\u2019t want to take all the credit for that, or the Prime Minister as the Prime Minister; it\u2019s down to my colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3245ca6099b43b38237e47cf127ee7b\u0022\u003EFamilies Package\u2014Impact and Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0e420bb403d49c2aa27f8358241ce98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0e420bb403d49c2aa27f8358241ce98\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Will the Government\u2019s Families Package assist low- and middle-income families; if so, how?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e399fa3e398548ab8021648702a2d854\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e399fa3e398548ab8021648702a2d854\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Low and middle income families can look forward to a significant boost to their incomes through the targeted assistance provided by this Government\u2019s Families Package, much of which will come into effect on 1 July. Among other things, the package will increase Working for Families tax credits and raise the abatement threshold, introduce a Best Start payment to assist families during the critical early years of a child\u2019s life, and increase paid parental leave to 26 weeks. When the package is fully rolled out in 2021, 385,000 families with children will be better off by an average of $75 a week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5dcd536b32a47ec8c2964cc09fea9f7\u0022\u003EDr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: What specific examples can the Minister provide of the impact the Families Package will have on Kiwi families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf25276be0a5412e94c971e404546d96\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Families all around the country experiencing a range of living circumstances can expect further assistance come 1 July. From that date forward, a couple living in the Selwyn electorate with a four-year-old and a newborn on a single income of $55,000 will be better off by $129 a week than they are now. A sole parent with a newborn living in Wellington, not in work, who receives sole parent support will be better off by $112 a week through the winter months, and $80 a week better off for the rest of the year. I would encourage all middle and low income families to be on the lookout for that date, 1 July, when paying the bills will get easier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022582641db03b2422a92600a78d80db321\u0022\u003EDr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government fund the changes made through the Families Package?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265510b43d6a445c99b1d629ac60a5fa6\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: By reversing the previous Government\u2019s poorly targeted tax cuts\u2014which would have disproportionately benefited the wealthy\u2014which will save around $8.36 billion over the next four years. The investment we\u2019re making through the Families Package is estimated to be around $5.5 million over the same period. This means we can afford to provide significant assistance to children and families, with further money left over to invest in critical public services such as health, housing, and education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e1e36cef7494f8a89fe3047d1273ab2\u0022\u003EBusiness Confidence\u2014Actions and Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00221ccfe614d4ad417ca7202ff57c65b4a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ccfe614d4ad417ca7202ff57c65b4a8\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What are the current levels of the Business Confidence Index and Own Activity Index according to the 31 May 2018 ANZ Business Outlook Survey, and how do these compare to the previous month?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022390f4be701984a528454a2d565148aea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022390f4be701984a528454a2d565148aea\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The survey referred to in the member\u2019s question does not measure current levels of business confidence, as it is retrospective. However, to be helpful, the May ANZ Business Outlook survey showed a drop in headline business confidence and in firms\u2019 own expectations of 4 percentage points. I note that firms\u2019 expectations of their own activity, which is, historically, more closely related to GDP growth, remained positive, with a net 14 percent of firms expecting a coming lift in activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f018ad7a063465da5bc062ea087778f\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Is he worried that the separate Auckland business confidence survey has also fallen markedly, from just 8 percent of respondents who thought that the economy would deteriorate, in June last year, to the now 44 percent who expect the economy to get worse now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f00b06e0cea941ae8433e6c6c5ac9571\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Those are indeed the headlines of that survey, but when you look a little lower, the results are significantly varied, and the survey does show that 56 percent of people think the situation will improve or remain the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a76995b9d39495b816b087c5438137a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister of Finance as to whether or not, as an indicator of confidence, our sharemarket is today at an all-time record high?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225356528aa6e443f9bf5b78a2ff7bd26b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed. In fact, firms all around the country, as I\u2019ve travelled around since the Budget, have been indicating that they\u2019re pleased with the Budget and that they see a good path ahead of them. I also note today the Victoria University study that says that trust in Government has increased from 48 percent in 2016 to 65 percent today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ff7f54c6e09488182670872c8a4b8f5\u0022\u003EWillow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any data related to business confidence released today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a60ab44357d4fa58cdd2a919283aaef\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: In addition to what I said in the last answer, the ANZ Truckometer was released today, with a rise in both the heavy traffic index and, indeed, the light traffic index. This saw the bank say that in light of less upbeat signals from other data, \u201Cthe recent improvement is an encouraging sign that the economy will push through.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0c4ddb522ff4205a6245f3830d315d0\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Does he consider that it is the actions of this Government, such as the lack of a proper Cabinet process and the lack of economic analysis before the announcement that was made to end oil and gas exploration, which has contributed to these very low levels of business confidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228da3f9ee210f42f895a4625ac2b89078\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No. In fact, I can take my lead from OMV, the company involved in gas exploration, who said the following: \u201CThis has no impact at all. It has no impact on existing licences, neither on production licences nor on exploration licences. We are in a very good position in New Zealand.\u201D That\u2019s what OMV said. Perhaps the member should cheer up a little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b9fbb5695fc4fe89c4a8d84e5fbd068\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does he think that the dismissive attitude that Government Ministers have expressed towards small business, such as claiming that large minimum-wage increases would be good for small business or that if they can\u2019t handle large minimum-wage increases, then they don\u2019t sound that resilient, has at all contributed to the declining levels of business confidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279fd622ed1884af9b77f004106236bf1\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No. On this side of the House, we\u2019re extremely supportive of small businesses. It\u2019s one of the reasons why we actually picked up the excellent work of the Hon Judith Collins and moved on with the \u201CAmazon tax\u201D. Well done, Judith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f1b2b0634a4413498136dbd01f7b8fb\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does he agree with Westpac\u2019s analysis yesterday, stating that business confidence is now so low that it will need to lower GDP growth, meaning that our economy has gone from a rock star to a mere support act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf0a3da87f3c43e0a8db26ba3cf5a760\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We all know that under the last Government, the so-called rock star economy was a roadie economy, where people had to stand alongside looking at others who were benefiting. On this side of the House, we\u2019re going to make sure that all New Zealanders get a say in an economy that is productive, sustainable, and inclusive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e7e23ac5a054de9a44bacd531f07652\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Well, given that GDP per capita growth has dropped to only 0.1 percent in the last quarter, is he now prepared to accept that strong economic growth is not a continuous cash machine and can\u2019t be taken for granted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d5a9438b844e4caea1d1d404aad6e7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I remind that member of her former colleague\u2019s statement\u2014Steven Joyce said it\u2014\u201CIt pays not to look at quarter-by-quarter analysis when it comes to GDP per capita growth.\u201D What I know is that the forecasts are for ongoing, solid growth in the New Zealand economy of around 3 percent. Do you know what? This side of the House isn\u2019t satisfied with that. We want all New Zealanders to actually share in prosperity, not just be satisfied that we\u2019re generating those levels of growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002243ea2785f16541ed8c202d590ca733f0\u0022\u003ESuperannuation\u2014Disclosure of Circumstances\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00221e8295dc0ed04fcc9845fc8a63bcc99f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e8295dc0ed04fcc9845fc8a63bcc99f\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she agree with the statement made by the Ministry of Social Development that \u201CThe Ministry works hard to protect the integrity of the welfare system to ensure it remains fair for all New Zealanders, which can include prosecution where clear evidence of fraud exists\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002247e8478b5d564499a2f2c2c464ba4012\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247e8478b5d564499a2f2c2c464ba4012\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022254b6d08f9ec44c4aaded4c2d0e79423\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Would an example of such fraud be signing multiple false declarations that one\u2019s living arrangements had not changed in respect to receiving superannuation when, in fact, they had?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd1eba949d4343a3b6e06128c3fdb9ce\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That statement verges on, and it is, subject to the sub judice rule. Just because he doesn\u2019t understand the law, it\u2019s no reason for him to think he\u2019s going to challenge it in this House, and besides which, it\u2019s based on a lie. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f83d64c58f7b4a8ba1e30c915567d4e5\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister saying that so long as somebody takes court proceedings, they can get away with it for ever?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223913e5ce1143409485ffaf512f89c275\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1da44aeb91241c084e89dce9af8a2b9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bb6756309a448a5a95e3c6017c3785a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I can handle it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c3946b842094b0a98017406e1f6a0e8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have no\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6a080f4d49e4423bd73282196a9ffd3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s about to get it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246eb9518ac2f46dbb8a3d07fd9ddbde3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have no doubt the right honourable gentleman can, but it\u2019s not an area of the Prime Minister\u2019s responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221141fc176954cb2b255b12ccde799ef\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the message that it is OK to make false statements and claim too much on one\u2019s superannuation so long as you have the connections to get away with it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022155a361082184434a15204dfaf3ae697\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That\u2019s also not a matter of the Prime Minister\u2019s responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c513228908549dd9a21ed9ff095835f\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Surely, the Prime Minister has responsibility for what is the largest-spending department in his Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275333ff39b63442a818ef3841c7b9df5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume his seat. The member has been making reference to matters which are sub judice. He knows that they are. He is asking the Prime Minister to comment on them, and I\u2019m not going to allow it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022313031d1166149309c3cac1aeab49931\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022476a97611e2e44d98721f737df1f6086\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, I hope you\u2019re not going to relitigate this ruling that I\u2019ve just made, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8346f87303e4a34a10a669627ac8d74\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022000185798be24612beabd17cabd9bd90\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it\u2019s been very clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226944a215288b4881b72700308f135733\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: But it would be quite reasonable to ask a question about which bit of the Hansard record will show any mention of a case currently sub judice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ae3abb836984edead3deffe7f8b7d5d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And none will, and we all know what the member was referring to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b8ee072170b4911941fa63a8b0cc2d2\u0022\u003EHousing New Zealand\u2014Review of Meth Contamination Standards\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00220f0ab3546c7a489ab51193ea891b4652\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f0ab3546c7a489ab51193ea891b4652\u0022\u003EVIRGINIA ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing and Urban Development: Why did he commission a review by the Prime Minister\u2019s Chief Science Advisor, Professor Sir Peter Gluckman, into meth contamination standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00227b2ce37d9e154f739b4f9b491b024aa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b2ce37d9e154f739b4f9b491b024aa1\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Minister of Housing and Urban Development):\u003C/span\u003E I have been sceptical of the methamphetamine contamination panic for several years, and on 7 December it was reported that a Housing New Zealand tenant, Robert Erueti, had been evicted based on a minuscule meth reading, even though it was known that he was not a meth user himself. The former Government spent $44,000 putting Mr Erueti into motels for over a year as a result. I apologised to Mr Erueti and we found him a home, and that same day, I met with Sir Peter Gluckman and then sent him a letter commissioning this review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb7e660ad1944076918d98faa7dbdda0\u0022\u003EVirginia Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he apologise to the people evicted and blacklisted from State houses based on the flawed meth standard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cad720dbc6d46b0acf080612b4a303b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is not to blame for what happened before we took office, but we are responsible for fixing the problem and we are accountable to the people who were treated unfairly. Even though we didn\u2019t create this problem, I felt it was still important that the public see that this Government is willing to front up, admit when things have gone wrong, and fix it for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c2985b7078a4dfe8901474996d372fc\u0022\u003EVirginia Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What actions is the Government now going to take in light of Sir Peter Gluckman\u2019s report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e6906fc87f3423caa2d5b3c80132363\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: First, Housing New Zealand has changed its policy and adopted the standard recommended by the Gluckman report. Secondly, Minister Kris Faafoi has commissioned a review of Standards New Zealand\u2019s process used in the setting of standard NZS 1805. Third, I\u2019ve commissioned a comprehensive report from Housing New Zealand on the whole sorry saga, and I will release that report publicly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cc8039ca8fd4bfb8e7475bd41a4d3fa\u0022\u003EMarama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Given Housing New Zealand knew concerns were being raised about these standards as far back as 2016, what steps is the Minister taking to ensure compensation for tenants who were forced to pay for meth tests and forced out of their homes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcf5b320c005414c9b7126ccbc699e1d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve commissioned a comprehensive report which will include a case by case account of every property that was meth-tested and all of the consequences that followed. I want to know who knew what when in the chronology of policy development both from the Ministry of Health, Housing New Zealand, and the Government of the day. When we\u2019ve got the facts on the table, then we can decide what the appropriate course of action is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022376c9afbf02a48f8bfb477b7b3d20087\u0022\u003EKiwiBuild\u2014Building Activity, Targets, and Competition\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022383d2c85c03f4d3abb2db97f16bfcc7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022383d2c85c03f4d3abb2db97f16bfcc7a\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing and Urban Development: How many KiwiBuild houses has the Government built to date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022c408ca40adde42bd95069e07167afd29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c408ca40adde42bd95069e07167afd29\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Minister of Housing and Urban Development):\u003C/span\u003E The 10-year KiwiBuild programme officially kicks off on 1 July with a target of 1,000 houses in the first year, 5,000 in the second, and 10,000 in the third. But we haven\u2019t waited until July to get started on that work; we\u2019re actually ahead of schedule with the first KiwiBuild homes currently being built in the member\u2019s electorate. Families will be able to buy them and move into them later this year. The Prime Minister also announced the purchase of land from Unitec that will accommodate more than 3,000 homes. We are working on more developments on Government land and have had very strong interest from private developers, and I will make more announcements in due course. Right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a51cf54f832741a4a200cae10db87d09\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019m going to ask the member to ask the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217e175df02dc47049e50f02402b8e4a7\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. How many KiwiBuild houses has the Government built to date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad66dbc2fc744f8bc0c61571708e642\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: There are 18 houses being constructed in the member\u2019s electorate as we speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237263bcb6944401e9b7194efbd525171\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How many houses has the private sector built in the time that he has been a Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225acc44bbb4764f7fb0b398528123b931\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy to get the precise number. If the member wants me to get that for her, she can put it down as a written question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f73e2c0fa5e40e48b6b7c9829503dcc\u0022\u003EPaul Eagle\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair\u2014no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246122a22fcd141cda0466eae4824d4a9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the normal practice to give two to the asker of question first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228941e023d5334e8b92fd221890538216\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Are Westpac and ANZ banks both wrong when they say that there has been a decrease in building activity in the months that he has been the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d10a8c3615cf47688baed38109306a10\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, the latest consent numbers show that the building numbers in Auckland are up. But, look, we\u2019ve always been very clear that we would take three years to ramp up the KiwiBuild programme. That has always been our policy. We said that we will build 1,000 in the first year, 5,000 in the second, and 10,000 in the third. We inherited a housing crisis that took nine years to develop. The member knows you cannot build\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206f25e02ef864e7d849ab3fc466d6e93\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9bba8e47036464cb00093418c48e43c\u0022\u003EPaul Eagle\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government expect to meet its target of 1,000 KiwiBuild homes in 2018-19, 5,000 in 2019-20, and 10,000 in 2020-21?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fe70d528fc04c03a6472e154cceb5f0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re under no illusions that this is a big task, and we are working hard every day to achieve these targets. This is an aspirational Government. We\u2019ve set our aims high and we\u2019re working hard to achieve them because we believe in the Kiwi Dream of affordable homeownership for all New Zealanders. I remain committed to these targets, and we will keep the public updated on progress through KiwiBuild\u2019s first year and into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216031a2fa14d41839ec83435524b8aa7\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Will KiwiBuild prop up failed developments and failing developers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210be815e253e45c39d00d36f88f0e69f\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: No, but KiwiBuild will incentivise the building of the very affordable homes that the market is spectacularly failing to deliver at present. Around 5 percent of new builds are currently in the lower quartile and considered affordable, and our buying off the plans initiative for KiwiBuild will incentivise the building of affordable homes that are currently not being built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a20f8da182c4b9ea00b83036e9e4400\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How does he plan to get houses built that are extra to those being built by the private sector without competing with the private sector for tradespeople to actually do the building?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212ec2d1460824b38b232abed7cdd2795\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I draw the member\u2019s attention to the case in her own electorate where at the McLennan development in Papakura, there was a private sector development that had fallen over. Investors were not willing to build in it and the builder who is currently building the KiwiBuild homes in that member\u2019s electorate thanked us for the work and said that they were glad to have it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207e2d48a5ef54b0aa07a69dba7f13fb6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I will ask the member to ask the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae612672de294379a122837d1db9542d\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. How does he plan to get houses built that are extra to those being built by the private sector without competing with the private sector for tradespeople to actually build the houses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e9575c19294489bb81fa48df76e41b5\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not denying that there is a problem with workforce capacity. We inherited, after nine years of that Government, a total failure to build the local workforce. We\u2019re committed to developing that workforce, and the Hon Jenny Salesa has led an initiative to develop the workforce for KiwiBuild both by recruiting skilled personnel from overseas and developing the local workforce by giving young New Zealanders the opportunities that they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd8610075fae4d34ae5794ddd570782a\u0022\u003E No. 4 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000181\u0022\u003EQuestion\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022970eaef6bd37430297cd1c3424dac60d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022970eaef6bd37430297cd1c3424dac60d\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f1c2bfbc6264b0e918dc9d091d4adbe\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order, David Seymour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022356b96d8f6f546b2b8ed5aa4b26d038f\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s surprising. I would like to raise a matter and ask you to reflect on it and perhaps make a ruling, because I think it\u2019s quite important. It is in regards to the events of question No. 4 earlier today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9117dffc6124087bad525a7197b9616\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9117dffc6124087bad525a7197b9616\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member will resume his seat. Members are aware that points of order are to be taken at the time. It\u2019s a longstanding Speaker\u2019s ruling. It is Speaker\u2019s ruling 23, I think, and the member should know that. If the member has an issue that he thinks needs to be drawn to my attention\u2014if he wants me to go back and look at something or do something similar to that, he\u2019s welcome to take it up with me after question time, in my office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00220bba5d55072c4913b575135e96515fea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bba5d55072c4913b575135e96515fea\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb5d8a54fbd0455dbb7788802430d0b1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to make sure that the member\u2019s not going to relitigate that, because if the member is going to relitigate it I will regard that very seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a61d46d3267b43a18ffe037d6f1ce35a\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the point I wish to make is that sometimes there are ongoing issues that do require the House\u2019s attention, and I think we should be able to raise them in this open forum, not simply in your office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002283897b8c47d14c459234c9fb88caf1f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283897b8c47d14c459234c9fb88caf1f0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m very pleased that that\u2019s what the member thinks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223740da69372443af92ecefc3b58d52dc\u0022\u003ETransport Infrastructure\u2014Regional Fuel Tax Impact\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7834c2cc55e4293a6e2e7549bba35ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7834c2cc55e4293a6e2e7549bba35ec\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Will the proposed Auckland regional fuel tax increase the cost of living for Aucklanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00224073ea3fd54a4e369b471d44fa8cc2ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224073ea3fd54a4e369b471d44fa8cc2ae\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I am committed to striking a balance between affordability and taking urgent action on the transport infrastructure deficit that we inherited. The combined effect of the Auckland regional fuel tax and the proposed increases to fuel excise duty will cost an average family $5 per week. This is dwarfed by the $75 a week on average that low and middle income families will receive as part of the Families Package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9187ee683ff47d4a4f3bc9f9e3945da\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Minister of Transport that the regressive nature of the proposed regional fuel tax \u201Ccould result in lower income households contributing a higher proportion of their income to the tax compared to higher income households\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a506e264297b4b6e9696a6dc3155be96\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think most people would agree with that statement, but it\u2019s also true that congestion costs are highly regressive. The effect on low-income families of not having decent public transport means that they are forced into the most expensive option, which is dependence on every adult in a household who works having to run a car to get to and from work. The regional fuel tax will generate or will free up $4.5 billion of investment in public transport that will make life better for low-income workers. It generates $1.5 billion and frees up another $3 billion. And if that member wants to abolish the regional fuel tax, as he says he does, he needs to tell Aucklanders which projects he\u2019s going to cancel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3e47dd12152451f89ff19c583118001\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Manurewa-Papakura councillor Daniel Newman, who described the tax as a \u201Cwholesale redistribution of wealth from some of the poorest blue collar workers who have the least transport choice to fund much of the infrastructure to serve those people who enjoy the greatest wealth.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022809e9918998f407ea12e04bb054d6ff1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Before the member answers, I\u2019m going to indicate that the Opposition has a further three supplementary questions as a result of the interjection during that supplementary. I\u2019ll take the time to indicate to the House that the Opposition has a choice of using them today or tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7152fb9b7f4418f837ddd29491c1315\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think I\u2019ve pointed out to the member that we are building a modern public transport system that will give all Aucklanders choices. It will tackle the current cost of congestion in Auckland, which is $1.3 billion, and, actually, far worse than the regressive effect of a regional fuel tax is the punishing effect on low-income people of not having access to decent public transport. On top of that, our Government has done more than that former Government ever did to put money in the pockets of low-income families\u2014$75 a week for 384,000 low and middle income families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a41430e076414814aecff17b2c93de32\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Labour councillor for Manukau, Efeso Collins, who wrote an article which described the impact of the regional fuel tax as \u201CTaxing the poor, to transport the rich\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221047a14011d14d018e1401a4063b7b86\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I did see that article, but I would note that a clear majority of councillors on Auckland Council, including a number of National Party - aligned councillors, voted to put Auckland first ahead of the petty politicking from that side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268be50e13abc4cda8e7d32d1c08929d7\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the submission of transport economist Sam Warburton that this tax will see poorer and more at-risk households over-taxed and subsidising rich households?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206be25220415415c87fabc6b0b04f078\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I agree with Sam Warburton, and, in fact, the former transport Minister, the Hon Simon Bridges, who courageously initiated work on congestion pricing and road pricing in Auckland\u2014work that this Government is carrying on because we believe that in the long term, that provides better options for the Auckland transport system than a regional fuel tax. But we\u2019re not prepared as a Government to wait around and do nothing while the gridlock gets worse and worse, as that Government did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8801edee8a64628ae9e77eb05ef1e5a\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that his continued attempts to tax Aucklanders more in the face of growing public opposition was one of the biggest contributing factors behind Dan Bidois winning on Saturday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221b35e3a5a5f42b2aeb05aa3ed2b8c62\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! It\u2019s not an area he has responsibility for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e5fdbc78a64c1daee5dea9518a2d90\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: What projects will the regional fuel tax fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeffc06e059f4f5cad71e16835c74815\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The regional fuel tax enables the biggest civil infrastructure programme in New Zealand\u2019s history. The regional fuel tax funds bus priority improvements and infrastructure in the central city, the eastern busway, park-and-rides in the Hibiscus Coast, Westgate, K\u016Bmeu, Drury, and Paerata, more electric trains, redevelopment of the downtown ferry, a road safety programme, Penlink, Mill Road, and many other projects across Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da0414c51bf54418af9fe051beb346ea\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: What alternatives are there to going ahead with the regional fuel tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210238ba3c69146539458df9d1d7c7b63\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the reality is pretty simple: if we\u2019re going to have less revenue to pay for transport projects\u2014and I underline the fact that the regional fuel tax is responsible for freeing up $4.5 billion out of the $28 billion programme. If we don\u2019t have that, we\u2019ll have to run more debt, cancel projects, or both. The Opposition is asking us simultaneously\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f1ea5d66ded4840a20ac6d48f471f00\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba5e50ef955b481f8cddf9fda2006dce\u0022\u003EInternal Affairs, Department\u2014SmartStart Website\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022fedeef1982f34d06940d1f23cb268f88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fedeef1982f34d06940d1f23cb268f88\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Internal Affairs: What services has the Department of Internal Affairs provided to assist new parents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u002279ad08c00b83428590944a521962c939\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279ad08c00b83428590944a521962c939\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The Department of Internal Affairs has developed and supports a website called SmartStart, and as of 28 February this year, there\u2019ve been nearly 300,000 visitors to the site. They are able to access information about support services both during their pregnancy and after the birth of their child, and while this is a good start, we would like more people to access the service so that they can get information about local support for themselves, for their children, and also about possible financial support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca2e6c0c7ee84836a6ec44ca9f7b7fb0\u0022\u003EMark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: How does the site help expectant parents and parents of newborns?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af93f9d05ec64950bbb5ae76bc933685\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: The website provides expectant parents information such as lead maternity providers and family services in their area, and once the baby is born, parents are able to register their birth online and then share that digital birth record with other agencies, which, in just one instance, can save $33 for a family when they\u2019re sharing that information with the Ministry of Social Development. Currently, 95 percent of the parents who access this site are sharing information with the Inland Revenue Department, and this is important because in the Government\u2019s new Families Package, all families with babies born after 1 July are entitled to receive $60 a week for the child\u2019s first year, and those in a particular income bracket will get more support for the next two years. If their baby was due on or after 1 July but they had a premature baby, they may also be eligible, and so we\u2019d like them to go to the SmartStart site and sign up so that we can make sure that they get the support from this Government that we have provided for their children, to add to their children\u2019s well-being.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed7f21a0dcae4e778433336f88b39ce7\u0022\u003EJustice System\u2014Three-strikes Legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022136fe4238e4b4a6a9cb43797ffbd014d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022136fe4238e4b4a6a9cb43797ffbd014d\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s justice policies and decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002275f296e01bc949bc98e8d0b856f12f50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275f296e01bc949bc98e8d0b856f12f50\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226597af41311c477ba01fe14ea7dd0e8d\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that the three-strikes law is an \u201Cabsolutely absurd law, the high-water mark of policy stupidity\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f04f75fd5f24b3f800e553504645401\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fef2c78c8a040c38fbb4b67c87b1141\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: What is his view of the statement made by New Zealand First justice spokesperson, Darroch Ball, who said in relation to the three-strikes reform, \u201CThe law provides a firm framework to deter recidivism\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e41f15031c24211bdfb0898d69da543\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister is not responsible for Mr Ball\u2019s views at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1547b7290ee4dc08780d2c98fe251fe\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a fair comment. I apologise for letting the question go. I\u2019ll let the member rephrase it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225497a30062014392ab156ff6c6c426b8\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Has the justice Minister seen any reports or press releases from New Zealand First justice spokesperson Darroch Ball, who has said in relation to the three-strikes reform, \u201CThe law provides a firm framework to deter recidivism, and sends a clear message to our most serious offenders\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b249841f13d141a0b0caebb952191f0b\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think the question was closer, but the Minister has no responsibility for press releases issued by another political party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe35b4386d7148f79edcd6d0a827eb99\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But the question wasn\u2019t that; it was whether he\u2019d seen it or not. And we\u2019ve had a number of instances today where supplementary questions have asked Ministers if they\u2019ve seen reports. I am just going to take the opportunity to say\u2014and I\u2019ll say it in particular and draw the attention of Amy Adams. There\u2019s been a little bit of a growing habit, which I\u2019ve been slack about, about asking Ministers to comment without asking if they\u2019ve seen reports. The wording, which I let through for her question No.3 today and a number of supplementaries, is going to be slightly tightened up on going forward. And I\u2019d be happy to discuss it with the Clerk\u2019s Office. I\u2019d be happy discuss it with people responsible for lodging questions. We are going to be tighter about ministerial responsibility, especially for primary questions. Now, if the member can remember the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244d8ecc870ad4bc6a515b2518a72cf99\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have seen that report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022186cddc8e05a45d9a82320a9293949bd\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Maybe I should have included the first part of the question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e4070ae3b514754a42def8f9d113f25\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. You had a chance to rephrase it. You\u2019ve rephrased, and you\u2019ve had a full answer, not just addressing the question but a full answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d56a423f386f4fffbe23b7de74dd9fe0\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s his view of the report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200212e488c1c44f8bf8019caa3ba9287\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister may have seen it; it doesn\u2019t mean he has responsibility for it, and therefore being asked his view on it is outside of his ministerial responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221689b0becf334d24b13c978660236f6b\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: In the previous question there was a question to the transport Minister asking him what the alternatives would be if there was not a fuel tax, and the Minister chose to answer that. So, presumably, he\u2019d read some information that gave him the information he needed to answer that. The question here to Mr Little is simply, now that there\u2019s been an acknowledgment that he has seen the report\u2014presumably, he\u2019s read it\u2014does he have a view on it? Now, that\u2019s not unreasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203e02ba01e3f4506a15ad0f4655f136c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. The idea that a Minister can\u2019t have an opinion on something in his portfolio that he\u2019s read would be protecting the Minister too much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec9150d250e8444883d09ed36540d25e\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. My view is that that is Mr Ball\u2019s genuinely held view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294311b6bf2444cf7b62fd7cf66219634\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Did he advance his Cabinet paper, which included the repeal of three-strikes legislation, through the correct process, including Cabinet committee, with the support of New Zealand First?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c516c536b2a40509782d91e58f6fd2c\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The position that we got to last week was that I made the decision to withdraw the paper, and any further reference to the full Cabinet. The reality is when it comes to Government policy, it is the final decision of Cabinet that matters, and that is what has happened in the last few days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6de27c2128c48eeb9adeb78a6cf4d4b\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. If I could seek your guidance on this, that was a very clear question\u2014short and concise. I don\u2019t think the Minister has actually answered it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298f850c02b4344559303b5ea6dfb9bae\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ask it again and I\u2019ll make\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b57a44fc03a4f7aa711ce955128b107\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Did he advance his Cabinet paper, which included the repeal of the three-strikes legislation, through the correct process, including Cabinet committee, with the support of New Zealand First?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e08944201d68490994b4e3269efa7ae0\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The paper went through all relevant stages until last week, when I made the judgment to withdraw the paper from final Cabinet consideration, because that is the way Government decision-making works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224043ad0eda6043e29e60ab2a3ee5c684\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Is he relieved to hear in the House today the Deputy Prime Minister state, on behalf of the Prime Minister, that three-strikes is still on the table?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c90f61639c3443596de83dd8775f237\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a question of relief\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5b7bd208f684272ac4d1a62ed47c35d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019m just going to cut the member down now, and ask the member to start again. The answer was the Prime Minister stating\u2014all right\u2014and I\u2019ll get the member to rephrase it. It\u2019s important that we get these things right, because we\u2019re about to have a change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022558873b4ad034b69b95664c10605597f\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Is he relieved to hear in the House today the Prime Minister state that three strikes is still on the table?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298e200ab12f143ef83af826c327db55a\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a question of being relieved about anything that the Prime Minister, or the Deputy Prime Minister standing in for the Prime Minister, has said or believes. The Deputy Prime Minister is a man of considerable and astute wisdom and he has brought that to bear in his answers to the House today, and he is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbbd31b46457400cb7f94bb5b732cc7a\u0022\u003ENCEA\u2014Review and Consultation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00226f89a8f8d08d4f63a892544f34a13b18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f89a8f8d08d4f63a892544f34a13b18\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What opportunities do New Zealanders have to give their views on how NCEA can better prepare students for life after school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022da382f1cb4a14af5addbe80e99e42a68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da382f1cb4a14af5addbe80e99e42a68\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I recently released, as part of the national education conversation, a discussion document on the review of the NCEA. We want to ensure that we are helping students leave school with qualifications that truly reflect their abilities and prepare them for a rapidly changing world. New Zealanders have the opportunity to provide their thoughts on the six big opportunities identified on the future of the NCEA via online surveys and submission forms. They can also attend workshops being held around the country over the next two months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251d5516b1cf34c13801810a3fcc5405f\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: How can younger New Zealanders take part and share their views on the future of the NCEA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d77dfbeedd124441b363997c363d04aa\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: We believe it\u2019s very important that young New Zealanders whose futures are at stake have the opportunity to have their say on the future of the NCEA. New Zealanders between the ages of five and 20 can share their vision on the future of education by participating in the Make Your Mark competition. Students can participate in a variety of ways in conveying their vision for the future of education: artworks, creative storytelling, leading a workshop, research papers, and media projects. There are grants, scholarships, laptops, and other prizes up for grabs. We want to hear how the NCEA can better support our young people in preparing them for further study, work, and life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e49a53f9dfbb491ba801d02119ea250b\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the coalition Government looking at updating the NCEA as part of the national education conversation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a7fede4138746d1b1a6209d5098c686\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The NCEA is a trusted and respected qualification internationally, but employers are telling us that students are coming out of school not always with the right skills, and we need more flexibility in what they are being taught. We also need to see less assessment and a greater focus on learning. The NCEA was introduced in 2002. It\u2019s now time to have a look at it and to see what we can do better to support young New Zealanders\u2019 pathways that reflect their learning needs and their strengths.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227cd85a0d7b9948a2b35d551cb4461c1d\u0022\u003EBudget 2018\u2014Police Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022645170f642a74dfb88d978f93f916e21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022645170f642a74dfb88d978f93f916e21\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Can he confirm he sought operational funding of $515.3 million over 4 years to deliver his preferred model of 1,800 new police in 3 years, and alternatively sought $346.4 million over 4 years to deliver them in 4 years; if so, why did Budget 2018 only appropriate $298.8 million in operational funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002290f2fa4cb88d40ed98fe60d4790cd850\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290f2fa4cb88d40ed98fe60d4790cd850\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, no, and Budget 2018 is the first of three this term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bab7966b88044c2ac12127d44d62165\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Why doesn\u2019t he just admit to the House and New Zealand that his 1,800 new police are funded over five years, not three, given his own draft Cabinet papers make that clear as well as the appropriations in the Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd8ae092a62a4af5bd0eee4a1a6f535a\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Because that would be a lie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c7f4b01e99c4aa3894e742d3b8ef113\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that in order to reach an additional 1,800 new police, an extra 1,000 officers will be needed because of police attrition, and why does the Cabinet paper he prepared not take account of attrition when calculating the extra 1,800 cops?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226214336f4d844b36a58145c180798240\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do, and, yes, it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eca7d7ad0b84c77b91047f071726c4d\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement in relation to the extra 1,800 police: \u201CI want to make it very clear, I want to make it very clear, we have the money assigned to it.\u201D; and if so, why is he now saying he will have to go back to Cabinet to get more money to deliver on his promises?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8b951eeb2c5492291f79c26bea7e220\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: The way the Budget works is Mr Grant Robertson has given me enough money to deliver this year. He has also assured me if I go back next year, he will top me up, and the following year he will also top me up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceb38396e2154405a989ebb3654d1936\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Prime Minister say the cost of the extra 1,800 sworn police was $40 million when the actual cost is well over 10 times that amount?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216127beeef874c328cd074316ba5f0a1\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t hear the Prime Minister say that at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fada11dfe3f6402b8dc36b7e7d3d4628\u0022\u003ETourism, Minister\u2014Estimates Advice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00227bf1e4daec7a44b1be3983308855bd2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bf1e4daec7a44b1be3983308855bd2a\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Tourism: Does he stand by all his statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f233ba6544184cb5a603b3ca05151f31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f233ba6544184cb5a603b3ca05151f31\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E The statements I\u2019ve made and the actions I\u2019ve taken regarding the tourism portfolio I stand by, but I do not stand by the comments I made to the member in select committee last week, and I hope the member has accepted my apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278a7087c7c854361a9bab987f0a16e65\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: How did he prepare for the Estimates examination of his tourism portfolio?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbb1fd8caa0449289b5d5d131ba0654e\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: As any Minister does. Through the experience of being the Minister you actually learn quite a lot about the portfolio. The opening address I gave was substantive. I gave a number of substantive answers to the questions that were in scope. Those questions that were out of scope, I don\u2019t think they should expect substantive answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270948672a79c49e0b2a4d1e6145e6779\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any reports describing his performance and inability to answer questions as \u201Cvacant\u201D, \u201Ccomplacent\u201D, and \u201Cthe worst performance of any Minister ever\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224541df683640416cb3c24f32ff841548\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: I believe those came from a member of her own party and, like I say, where the questions were in scope of the tourism portfolio, I gave substantive answers. Where those questions were out of scope, they shouldn\u2019t expect substantive answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227d4738d57ad4461937ad987620de45a\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister support being recalled to the select committee to answer questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc15ecd257a943928ead98cd1090f9fe\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: I read the transcript of the Estimates today and I was actually really proud of the answers I gave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293e37579613642bbaf8930c9ecd0ea1a\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister didn\u2019t answer my question. I asked him whether he would support being recalled to the select committee to answer questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d590e9cf5a0442998e07d294d74eabc8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I probably should have\u2014I was, I think, being a bit kind to the member. I probably should have ruled it out, because whether or not he is recalled is actually not a matter for him; it\u2019s a matter for the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c75e1e2e3a149acbd8904288cce2630\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister: were the questions at the select committee spoken of somewhat akin and similar to the questions being asked in the House today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc4bddb7211647e9addca31a2e2088b0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member has no responsibility for either set of questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f18e7a3d4668475eac8d9037adf25894\u0022\u003EBudget Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b6dbe4c0a05f493e9f710bf522843367\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2018/19 Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000278\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 24 May on the .\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u00222df6f891c3b74a9f8d95661870378dbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222df6f891c3b74a9f8d95661870378dbc\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media):\u003C/span\u003E Between 26 February and 4 March this year, 1,000 New Zealanders were asked in a Victoria University public trust survey if they trusted the Government\u2014this Government\u2014to do what is right for New Zealand and 65 percent said yes, which compares with 48 percent in 2016. That is a huge increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a huge increase, and it shows that the hallmark of an authentic, purposeful, and forward-thinking Government is its willingness to confront the hard issues\u2014to front them, to establish the facts, to make decisions, to deal with the issues, and to build public confidence and trust. The most recent example of that was this Government\u2019s willingness to confront the issue of methamphetamine residue in State housing from smoking it, and whether there was evidence of health effects of that. Commissioned by the Minister of Housing and Urban Development, Phil Twyford, and delivered by the Chief Science Advisor, it found no evidence of health effects at all\u2014which was confronting the demonisation of people who live in social housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWhat does this Budget do in 2018? It stops the sell-off of State housing. It will commission the build of 6,400 more State homes with 1,400 more emergency housing places. There is $143 million for insulation and heating for low-income home owners, which complements the healthy homes guarantee, and it requires rentals to be warm and healthy to live in\u2014also complementing the winter energy payment scheme for more than 1 million Kiwis and their children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EAnother example of a Government willing to confront the hard issues is the Government inquiry into mental health and addiction, confronting the tsunami of mental health issues that has beset our country in recent years. That is not in the Budget, but what is in the Budget\u2014and while we\u2019re waiting to have that inquiry reported to us in October\u2014is $10.5 million over the next three years to pilot an integrated therapies programme for 18- to 25-year-olds, $28 million to better support Canterbury children, and $17 million to expand school-based health services. That is the hallmark of a responsible Government prepared to tackle the hard issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EAnother example is the just transition to a carbon-free economy by 2050. All of this goes to a plan for the transformation of our economy and public services, and how we work together to improve the lives of all New Zealanders. This requires fiscal, social, and environmental responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EBudget 2018 is a foundation Budget which tackles the big issues in housing, in health, and in education to set the foundations for the transformations that are needed going forward. This requires joined-up Government. It requires a modern, agile, and nimble Government that sees digital government as being the key to increasing productivity, higher skills, export growth, and social inclusion. It is a Government that knows that digital transformation will spur innovation and productivity growth; it will transform public services and improve well-being. These things go hand in hand. They go hand in hand with the challenges to jobs and skills, and these are critical challenges that face our country. The challenges to privacy and security, to markets and taxation, to social security systems and public financing\u2014this Government will tackle all of those challenges, which is why we are putting in place a foundation Budget to set the scene to be able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWe recognise that we can\u2019t fix with just one Budget all of the problems that we face. We have said that over and over again. We have been honest with the people of New Zealand about this, and they have listened. It\u2019s why it\u2019s called a foundation Budget. It\u2019s why we are appointing a Chief Technology Officer (CTO). It\u2019s why I have appointed a digital economy and digital inclusion advisory group to bring the good ideas and expertise outside of Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caf2705ddc324d5196b50c9f94fa7eb3\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: How\u2019s the CTO going?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022295ab4af0ba64964af305035825325e1\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s going well. The CTO appointment process is going well, thank you. It\u2019s why I\u2019ve appointed a digital economy and digital inclusion advisory group to bring those good ideas outside of Government closer to Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWe are deadly serious about the transformation of our economy and our public services. It\u2019s why we are appointing advisory groups to bring the good ideas from outside Government closer to Government. This Government is deadly serious about its agenda, and it knows that there are good ideas outside Government that we need to bring closer to Government. We\u2019ve acknowledged we can\u2019t do it all at once.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re being up front and honest with the public, and they are responding. A good example of this\u2014it\u2019s a small example, but it\u2019s quite a stark example\u2014is within the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), in the communications policy advice area. Under the previous Government, that part of MBIE was facing cuts. It was facing cuts of 16 full-time equivalents. That advice that would\u2019ve been cut was needed for work on the digital economy, improving digital inclusion, and ensuring resilient communications infrastructure. Instead, what this Government has done under Budget 2018 is provide $6.2 million of new operating funding for policy advice on digital economy, digital inclusion, and improving communications infrastructure issues, such as 5G mobile networks and ultra-fast broadband.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWhat this Government is doing is being honest with the public, showing that we are deadly serious about the transformations required. We\u2019re deadly serious about investing in the ideas that are required to do it. What the former Government was doing was a mirage. It was saying it was doing things, and it was cutting them. So, therefore, if it was committed to the digital economy, why was it cutting the key advice that was required to build up that area of the economy\u2014the engine room of our economy? So I\u2019d be keen for them to answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to touch on another issue, around how this Government is deadly serious about transformation. It\u2019s an issue that\u2019s been heavily neglected by the previous Government, and that is funding for public media. That side of the House does not believe in the value of telling our stories, which is why they froze the funding\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022809a0b3d03f94c96ac2a71763e71af7f\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4c40cb91bd24b128e35d6f2b6f5a654\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for nearly a decade of public media. Rubbish, Mr Bishop? Rubbish that the funding was frozen for nearly a decade? The previous Government\u2019s approach is embarrassing. Internationally we are ranked as one of the lowest in terms of funding for public media. Thankfully, this Government has the vision to start investing properly in public media. It\u2019s going to take time to repair a decade of neglect; we don\u2019t shy away from that challenge. The $15 million allocated in this Budget has been described by the Minister of Finance as a down payment, and I\u2019m excited about what we can do with this funding. The details are being worked through. It won\u2019t be long before you find out how that money will be distributed and New Zealanders can see some real demonstration of the changes ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis is about ensuring that our stories get told. It means focusing on what\u2019s important to us as New Zealanders around the country, rather than what will bring in the most advertising revenue or what has the best clickbait title. This is about who we are as a nation. It\u2019s about investing in telling our stories, something that the former Government froze and took no account of, put no value on, for a decade. That\u2019s the whole point of having a strong public media ecosystem producing content that is relevant to our national identity, investing in quality investigative journalism, and telling stories that would otherwise not be told. That is the hallmark of this Government. That\u2019s something that we can be proud of, and we won\u2019t shy away from dealing with the tough issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9d8bcab8f3b4215914b1fc51c744d94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9d8bcab8f3b4215914b1fc51c744d94\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a bit rich to be lectured on competency and transparency from Clare Curran, the most secretive and incompetent Minister in this Government, and that really is saying something when you see the line-up of these noddies. I want to make three points about this shabby and pedestrian Budget: first, that the Budget represents a triumph for the bureaucracy over front-line services; secondly, that M\u0101ori lost big time; and thirdly, that the only winner has been New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ELet me go to the first point, which is that the Budget represents a triumph for the bureaucracy. The previous speaker admitted the amounts of money in her area that were going into the provision of policy advice. I just want to take one small area in relation to arts, culture, and heritage, because I have a personal, as opposed to a political, interest in the arts\u2014a long-time lover of the arts\u2014and if one was to believe what all the luvvies were saying, the advent of the new Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage and her six or seven Associate Ministers represented the new dawn. Nirvana had come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWell, I have to tell you, round the country at arts events, a chill has set in because they know that that is not the case\u2014that all the promises have come to nothing. And where has any additional expenditure in arts, culture, and heritage gone to? Well, unbelievably, it\u2019s gone to the bureaucrats: an increase in the provision for money set aside for policy advice and monitoring of funded agencies; incredibly, more money spent on ministerial servicing, notwithstanding that there are about, as I said, four or five Associate Ministers; monitoring of funding agencies; and policy advice. I find that kind of additional expenditure simply incredible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn the six years I was the Minister for arts, we had very tough economic times, but I could always go to the now Sir Bill English and say that the ballet was in trouble, they needed additional expenditure, and they got help. Front-line services always came first. We were able to do a huge number of things on very little money\u2014like, for example, being country of honour at the Frankfurt Book Fair and having the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra tour through Europe. These are the sorts of things where money should have gone. Instead, it\u2019s gone to policy advice\u2014looking after the bureaucrats, but not the front line. And, in what could only be described as a very pedestrian and mediocre defence in her Budget speech, the Prime Minister said this was the start. But that was simply unacceptable. That\u2019s where the money has gone across the board. The bureaucracy wins out, rather than front-line services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to emphasise is that M\u0101ori have lost big time\u2014no more eloquently stated than by John Tamihere, who said there\u2019s a caucus of 13 MPs in the coalition caucus, and, basically, all of them failed, because the expenditure set aside for Te Puni K\u014Dkiri (TPK) has been slashed. And, incredibly, they stand up and recite in a formulaic, generic way, as the previous speaker did, the kinds of expenditure that have gone across the board. But they can\u2019t get away from the fact that funding for TPK has been slashed and that all the promises that were made before the election have turned to ashes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe particular area where a huge amount of work was done by the previous Government was on reform of Te Ture Whenua Maori, and through shabby deals with various people they opposed that legislation, even though they themselves, in previous manifestos, had promoted reform of Te Ture Whenua Maori. And not only has the bill gone for a skate, but expenditure into the way in which M\u0101ori land could become more productive has gone for a skate, as well. I see the Minister of Forestry in the House, who talks grandly and at length\u2014sometimes like a barrage balloon\u2014about promises of planting a billion trees. It will not be achieved in this country unless we can deal with te ture whenua, and nothing has happened there. John Tamihere is so right\u2014their empty words, their promises, come to nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAnd then we have the only real winner\u2014and this is the third point I want to make\u2014and that is New Zealand First. An American humourist, Will Rogers, once said, \u201CI never tell jokes. I just look at the Government and report the facts.\u201D And he was saying that in the last days of the Hoover administration, but it applies with equal force to this shabby, incompetent coalition Government. It so applies here. Let us look at the facts and we can see what Will Rogers was really talking about\u2014for example, that Tracey Martin and Ron Mark are Ministers, that we have tax breaks for good-looking horses, that we have $191 million for diplomats and massively increased overseas aid at the expense of the poor in New Zealand, that we have the oil and gas industry destroyed in New Zealand so that the Greens will support the Peters waka-jumping legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWe have a real need within the precincts of this place for rebuilding part of the Parliament\u2014I refer to the proposals for the office building that was going to be situated behind Parliament. We all know that the old press gallery in the Beehive was a serious earthquake risk and has been yellow-stickered. Every party in the Parliament, bar New Zealand First, was in favour of that sensible development, but it\u2019s been held up by one small, irrelevant party and their small leader. And so what we have is all those proposals put on hold because of one person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ed8ff11216e4b7f9093e68f967feb15\u0022\u003ERt Hon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c4e5edb93ba419aa8fd6f85a1b81c64\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: We have a regional development fund of\u2014but \u201CWhy?\u201D, the Rt Hon David Carter asks. That\u2019s a question, the answer to which will be developed over the next couple of months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThen we have a regional development fund of $3 billion where there are no criteria, there are no tests\u2014it\u2019s all discretionary. It\u2019s Hundertwasser one day, it\u2019s the Taranaki Cathedral the next, it\u2019s a forest in the central North Island the day after that. We have the three-strikes repeal dead, but the process is a metaphor for the chaos of a Government which has simply no coordination whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAnd who does it come back to? Who is, as it were, the Mephistopheles behind this shabby Faust? Well, we all know who it is. It\u2019s the failed member for Hunua, for Tauranga, and for Northland\u2014our new great acting Prime Minister. He was a failure in the 1990 administration\u2014Jim Bolger had to get rid of him after nine months. He was a failure in the 1996 administration\u2014he walked out before Jenny Shipley could fire him. He was a failure in the last Government, where he needed to be propped up by Margaret Wilson so that he didn\u2019t answer questions in the House. Everything he touches turns to dust, and that is the person who today is acting Prime Minister. It would be funny, it would humorous, if it wasn\u2019t so sad for our beloved country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo there we have it. Three\u2014only three; there is a litany of them\u2014points that need be made: that the Budget represents a triumph for the bureaucracy, that M\u0101ori lost big time, and that the only winners in this exercise have been New Zealand First. And we, who worked so hard over nine years in the toughest of economic times, facing the kinds of challenges we did with, for example, the Christchurch earthquake, produced prudent Budgets, got this country back to sound economic health. We were starting to produce Budget surpluses, and it\u2019s one of those dreadful tragedies that we all see it going to waste because, ultimately, a Faustian deal was done with a very unpleasant and nasty New Zealand First Party, led by a very unpleasant person in Mr Peters, and we are all going to have to suffer the consequences of that grubby little deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s the Budget. That\u2019s the way things are. Mr Jones may laugh, but, unfortunately, the laugh is going to be on him in 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u00221ef018ffe5f04f99ad254a4c9d04b61c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ef018ffe5f04f99ad254a4c9d04b61c\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s an honour to talk about this exciting, progressive Budget, which is the opposite of what we\u2019ve heard from the honourable member Chris Finlayson opposite, who, I recognise, will be hanging up his boots soon. But if he keeps sucking sour grapes, he\u2019ll be out before we know it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019d like to inform the House that I\u2019ve been sleeping very well lately. In fact, I\u2019ve been sleeping very well for the past few weeks because every night before I lay my head on the pillow, I pick up the coalition Budget and I have a read through the Budget and it puts a smile on my face. It warms my heart, and as I lay my head on the pillow, my dreams are bliss. So maybe some of the Opposition members may wish to follow that course of action if they\u2019d like to be a little bit more positive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ESome of the reasons that I have been so excited about this Budget are around housing. Dave Dobbyn once said \u201CWelcome home, from the bottom of our hearts\u201D, singing in one of his songs \u201CWelcome home, from the bottom of our hearts\u201D. This Budget says \u201CWelcome home\u201D to 6,400 families, because we are building 6,400 more State houses. These houses will be for people\u2014they\u2019ll be for families, they\u2019ll be for individuals\u2014who have, for whatever reason, fallen upon difficult times. But we are saying, \u201CWelcome home, see we\u2019ve made a place for you.\u201D This Budget, once again, puts New Zealanders at the heart of our economy. And I am very proud that we\u2019ve got a Minister of Finance, Grant Robertson, who said that it\u2019s the people that matter the most, and this Budget clearly articulates that in a number of areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EAnother area is around education. As the House knows, I\u2019ve had experience in this area, and I\u2019ve been told for years and years that the education sector has been having to do more with less, similar to the health sector. They were told by the previous Government, \u201CYou must keep delivering.\u201D, but they weren\u2019t being funded in order to do that. This Budget restores funding to education. There are a lot of challenges in this area, but we\u2019ve made a start. One of the key areas that we\u2019ve made a start in is around teacher supply. We\u2019re employing 1,500 more teachers, and there\u2019s provision for that in this Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef702fbce630465cba5feaa37ded4c9c\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Where are they coming from, Jamie?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce58a80ff9004d43b63aee0584e5bf03\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll build hundreds of new, modern classrooms. And to answer the member, \u201CWhere are the teachers coming from?\u201D\u2014so this Government will value teachers. What\u2019s happened in the past is teachers have been more like administrators teaching to a test, testing, retesting, and retesting. But we\u2019ve removed national standards so that teachers can once again go back to that wonderful curriculum document we have and to be able to teach from that, and teachers can get on with the job of doing what they\u2019re passionate about, which is teaching young people. So we\u2019re lifting the status of the profession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ESome other ways that we\u2019re going to lift the status of the profession is by special needs. So we will provide ongoing resourcing scheme funding, which is funding for some of our most vulnerable students who require extra support. We\u2019re going to add funding for 1,000 more students. This has been issue for a number of years\u2014the funding in special needs. We have special needs students integrated into the classroom, and that\u2019s wonderful and that\u2019s the way that it needs to be. But the teachers need to be supported in this area, so we will provide that support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve provided extra funding around tertiary education and around supporting M\u0101ori students, with a programme to identify and support talented M\u0101ori students and initiatives to lift capability for delivering high-quality Te Reo M\u0101ori education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve talked about housing, I\u2019ve talked about education, and, in the last 30 seconds, I\u2019d like to talk about health. The health sector has struggled under the previous Government\u2014everybody in society will admit that. I met with 50 nurses from New Zealand\u2019s largest hospital, Waikato Hospital, about a year ago, and they were holding back tears as they told me that patients were sleeping in the hallways on mattresses because they were 400 beds short. But we\u2019ve started to address this issue, and I\u2019m proud of this Budget. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022da3faf071d46487a8c06c70d6f7c4f1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da3faf071d46487a8c06c70d6f7c4f1a\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m honoured to take my first call in the Budget debate this afternoon. I commend\u2014absolutely commend\u2014our Minister of Finance, the Hon Grant Robertson, for this fabulous Budget. This is a positive, future-focused, and outcomes-focused Budget, and it lays the fundamental foundations for the future of this country, and I am really excited by that. This is a reassuring Budget that focuses on strengthening the fundamental pillars of this Government\u2019s work programme, from rebuilding critical public services, promoting economic development, and supporting the regions to taking action in child poverty, housing, and homelessness. This Budget values these foundations and their place in providing a secure, prosperous, and reassuring future for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EToday, I want to focus my speech on education, which is something that I am incredibly passionate about. With that, I would also like to commend our Minister of Education, the Hon Chris Hipkins, for the hard work and advocacy he has put into Budget 2018.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EBudget 2018 recognises the importance of ensuring every child and young person gets the best education. In fact, this coalition Government\u2019s three-year work programme for education places a high priority on lifting and sustaining achievement for every child and young person through championing a high-quality public education system. Despite the rhetoric of those on the Opposition benches, Budget 2018 delivers a funding boost for our education system that it not only needs but deserves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EFirstly, I would like to pay particular attention to the increase in funding in building new schools and hundreds of additional classrooms. With this expected to take place in 2018-19 and 2020-21, there\u2019ll be a capital investment of $394.9 million. Whilst we are having to play catch-up, this vital piece of investment aims to bridge the disconnect between the spaces in which our children and young people learn, and lifting and sustaining achievement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWhat is even more exciting is this coalition Government\u2019s consideration to accelerating the Canterbury recovery and the Christchurch Schools Rebuild programme. Budget 2018 delivers $62 million in new capital investment for this programme, with children and young people in Christchurch also being able to benefit from a share of increased funding for behavioural and learning support in early childhood services, teacher-aides, and specialist services for high-needs children. We are committed to addressing the increasing demand placed on each of these areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ESecondly, another area that I am hugely passionate about is the area of learning support. I am excited by our investment of $272.8 million, which, might I add, is more than triple the operational spending compared to what was in the previous Budget. But what I am mostly excited by is the fact that we are now delivering for students who have been severely and poorly served by an underfunded system. If that wasn\u2019t enough, over the next four years, Budget 2018 will provide operating funding in the learning support space for the Ongoing Resourcing Scheme. This will receive an extra $133.5 million for about 1,000 additional students. Sensory schools and New Zealand Sign Language will receive an extra $30.2 million to support about 2,900 deaf and hard-of-hearing students and approximately 1,500 low-vision students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI want to talk about our investment in supporting M\u0101ori students to succeed as M\u0101ori and, in doing so, tautoko the work that Minister Davis is leading to make achievement a priority in education. At the very heart and absolute core of our approach to lifting and sustaining M\u0101ori achievement is our strong belief that M\u0101ori students deserve to succeed as M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWhat I find particularly heartening from Budget 2018 for M\u0101ori tamariki and rangatahi is the $1 million of new operating funding which will be used to investigate how we can better support M\u0101ori students to achieve as M\u0101ori in English and medium-term settings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI am proud of Budget 2018 because it provides the investment in education that is necessary to support our education system so that it brings out the best in every child and young person. I\u2019m happy for this coalition Government to be judged, as the Prime Minister has said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022df4aba2532a943d1a8bd76f97bd8ec69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df4aba2532a943d1a8bd76f97bd8ec69\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to stand and take a call on this, the Budget debate. I have to acknowledge the previous speaker Jamie Strange and his passion for the Budget\u2014telling us all that he takes it to bed as bedtime reading. That\u2019s taking it to a new level of commitment, so well done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI want to take a call, first of all, on defence\u2014and I\u2019m conscious of the fact I\u2019ve only got 10 minutes and I\u2019ve actually got two important portfolios, one being defence and one being justice. I want to address defence first, and first of all acknowledge all our Defence Force personnel, all the personnel in the Ministry of Defence, and the work that they do. No greater privilege have I ever had than actually being their Minister, prior to our coming into Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI want to address some issues with the defence Minister and just say that when I came into Opposition, I made it very clear to him and I said, \u201CI will support you in making sure that you advance some critically important investment that the Defence Force needs around capability.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThat relates directly to the replacement of the P3 Orion, which has been an incredible and faithful workhorse for our air force and defence forces and country over 50-plus years. But it\u2019s no longer possible to do upgrades on them, and, actually, they just need to be replaced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWe received a letter from the American Congress saying it was last orders for the P8 Poseidon under the military sales programme. The P8 Poseidon, after going through our procurement process with the Ministry of Defence\u2014led by Mike Yardley, who\u2019s done an outstanding job\u2014emerged, without a doubt, as our preferred option in terms of the P3 replacement. It would give us an enhanced capability. It would allow us to do more and extend our capability beyond what the P3 could do. It would mean that we would close our capability gap with our partners, and particularly our Five Eyes partners and coalition partners. And it would actually provide that interoperability that we need too when our personnel are deploying overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThis was a critically important acquisition, and I knew it was going to be tough, because I was working it through the process myself. I\u2019d had meetings with the Prime Minister, I had meetings with the finance Minister, and I had meetings with Treasury to find out how we could actually book the cost of this, because it\u2019s a big expense for the Government. But I was committed to it, and I was determined that we were going to make sure that we procured the P8 Poseidon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EPart of that process also meant getting support from our partners, and the US Secretary of Defense, Jim Mattis, was extremely supportive in terms of working with us and working with Mike Yardley and the team at the Ministry of Defence to be able to smooth out the payment schedule. They also gave us an extension on the decision as well, which is important, because they\u2019re committed to us, and they can see the importance of us having this type of equipment in the future as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut what I\u2019ve been very disappointed about is that it appears to have stalled. I can\u2019t get any clear information about whether or not the Minister has taken a Cabinet paper to Cabinet. We\u2019re now nine months into the new administration; this should have been done right at the front end. Actually, now it\u2019s starting to affect the morale within the New Zealand Defence Force\u2014not just the procurement, actually, of the P8 Poseidon but also the literal capability, and the decision has been delayed on that as well. It just creates uncertainty for people that join the defence forces with an expectation that they will be supported by the Government and an expectation that, actually, they will be given the best-possible equipment that, of course, we can afford as a small nation. These things have stalled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI was really concerned because during the election campaign, when Grant Robertson was asked where he would find savings, the only area he really highlighted was defence. I\u2019m fearful that that is going to come to pass, because during his Budget debate speech, the only thing that he could point to\u2014the only thing that he could highlight\u2014in terms of investment into our New Zealand defence forces was $1 million going into the Limited Service Volunteers programme. Now, I\u2019m a huge supporter of that programme. It\u2019s very important. The staff on it, whether it be social development or defence, do an outstanding job, and I just want to pay tribute and acknowledge them\u2014but $1 million? If the finance Minister can only stand in this House and talk about $1 million going into the Limited Services Volunteers programme\u2014which is not actually a core business of defence at all. It\u2019s a very important programme that defence support and run alongside social development. It\u2019s not one of their core objectives or part of their core business, and that\u2019s all that the Minister could get up and talk about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo I just want to put it out there and say that we were very disappointed with this year\u2019s Budget. The only real expenditure was around operational costs, and that\u2019s the growing operational costs that any Government needs to meet. That\u2019s, basically, all that\u2019s being done, and this is from a Minister that said before coming into Parliament that they should be moving towards 2 percent of GDP and that there should be a reinstatement of a strike capability and a heavy investment into personnel, property, and equipment. That is not happening. We are not seeing that at all in the defence portfolio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI just want to come quickly to justice. This week, to me, has been astounding. We had our Estimates hearing yesterday on justice, and it\u2019s become very, very clear that the incoming Minister of Justice just simply does not have a plan. Now, I found it extraordinary yesterday in the Estimates hearing that he was attacked by one of his own MPs\u2014a Labour MP\u2014about the lack of investment that\u2019s going into community law centres. I mean, there is a 0.3 percent increase in funding for the justice sector when they\u2019re talking about doing massive justice reforms. We\u2019ve seen, very early on, the Minister, yesterday, fail\u2014fail at the first hurdle\u2014at taking the first part of the reform, which he believes deeply in. He takes it through a Cabinet committee process. It\u2019s obvious that he had support from the coalition parties, and then on the day of the Cabinet paper being taken to Cabinet, there is a meeting with the Rt Hon Winston Peters, and he has to cancel the process, withdraw the paper, and withdraw the repeal of the three-strikes legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWe were happy about that, because in the last three weeks, you would\u2019ve seen our leader, the Hon Simon Bridges, run a passionate campaign around preventing that three-strikes legislation being repealed. There\u2019s a simple reason for this, and I\u2019m going to give an example. There was an offender\u2014he was arrested in Hawke\u2019s Bay\u2014who broke into a home and sexually assaulted a lady in her 80s. He then committed a home invasion with the intent of sexually assaulting a woman in her 70s. Had they been successful in repealing the three-strikes legislation, that offender would have been eligible for bail and been back out in the community in January of this year. With the three-strikes legislation remaining in place, he\u2019s not eligible for bail until 2026. That\u2019s why we were so passionate about running the sort of campaign that you saw that, effectively, in the end, saw New Zealand First bend to that pressure and come out and say that they would not support the repeal of the three-strikes legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe thing that really came home to me yesterday in our Estimates hearing was this: the justice Minister doesn\u2019t have a plan. There is no new funding in terms of reducing crime. There is a confused set of policies that are emerging from corrections, where you\u2019ve got a corrections Minister that seems to be paralysed in terms of indecision, and where there\u2019s a growing need for capacity within corrections and there\u2019s a policy that\u2019s come out around 600 pop-up beds. That\u2019s not going to meet the need. You\u2019ve got a justice Minister that\u2019s talking about repealing the three-strikes legislation and diluting our bail laws so that we\u2019re letting out more dangerous, violent, recidivist offenders\u2014because that\u2019s who\u2019s in our prisons. It\u2019s not low-level\u2014not shoplifters, not people who are found with a cannabis cigarette. The offenders\u2014the people who are in our jails\u2014are ones that have got multiple convictions and are normally violent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThen you\u2019ve got a police Minister that\u2019s standing here in terms of the justice portfolio and saying, \u201CWe\u2019re going to recruit 1,800 more police officers.\u201D but can\u2019t actually define what a front-line police officer is. He is telling us that it\u2019s someone that sits in a back office doing a forensic accounting role\u2014and I\u2019m not diminishing the importance of that. That\u2019s an important role, but I\u2019m telling you right now that they\u2019re not capable of deploying to someone\u2019s house when they\u2019ve got someone trying to break in through the back door for a home invasion. We\u2019ve had no clarity around how those police officers are going to be recruited and trained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo all that we\u2019re seeing coming out of the justice sector at the moment is a confused range of policies that are counterintuitive and work against one another, and that probably highlights very clearly in the House today why you saw the justice Minister and the New Zealand First justice spokesman unable to agree in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022da104097dc484247a1b4b5e8ed507fa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da104097dc484247a1b4b5e8ed507fa3\u0022\u003ETAMATI COFFEY (Labour\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e Te M\u0101ngai o t\u0113nei Whare, rau rangatira m\u0101, te wh\u0101nau wh\u0101nui o Aotearoa, te hunga whakarongo. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, distinguished colleagues, New Zealanders, and people who are tuned in.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou katoa. This is actually the first Budget that I\u2019ve got the pleasure of being able to stand and talk to, and I do that with enthusiasm and passion because I\u2019ve been fortunate enough to be able to have come off two weeks of recess where I\u2019ve been out there, pounding the pavements, talking to voters in the Waiariki about exactly what the Budget is. I can understand there\u2019s a wee bit of confusion out there, especially because they hear one message from our side, they hear another message from that side, and somewhere in the middle there, they get a little confused. So there\u2019s nothing like a little bit of kanohi ki te kanohi to actually iron out some of those things and to talk about the things that are making a big impact for M\u0101ori, and this Budget delivers in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThey were pleased to see me because there\u2019s been a severe lack of engagement over the last, say, nine years out there, especially with regards to how we\u2014the Government\u2014are spending their taxpayer dollars. So I was pleased to get out there and talk about the fact that we, as the Government, are getting back to basics\u2014real basics. We\u2019re talking about housing, we\u2019re talking about jobs, we\u2019re talking about education, and we\u2019re talking about health. Because of that severe lack of investment in the last nine years, we have come in on a very strong platform. On the campaign trail, people were looking for us to actually deliver on outcomes for M\u0101ori, and that\u2019s exactly what we\u2019ve done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EYou see, the previous Government oversaw a housing and homelessness crisis. Interestingly enough, they are not prepared to admit that it was a crisis. They\u2019re more likely to refer to it as a wee bit of growing pains and a bit of a challenge that we needed to sort out. They thought the answer to the problem was that they would sell off our State houses. They thought that was a really good idea. They thought they would turn our economy from one where we looked after each other to one where we just looked after the few at the top.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ESo, because of all of those things, what we did oversee was thousands of tamariki, both M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101, living in unacceptable levels of poverty. For that reason, the public gave their votes to an alternative, and that is us. That is the Government of today. That is us: the Labour Party, with our coalition partner, New Zealand First, and with our confidence and supply partners, the Green Party of Aotearoa. We campaigned on a new direction for New Zealanders, a new direction for M\u0101ori, and a new direction for the leadership of New Zealand too, of which our Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, is doing a stunning job. Although she\u2019s off to do a few things at the moment\u2014and, you know, we\u2019ve all been on that journey, too\u2014she\u2019s made it very clear that she wants this to be a Government that brings back manaakitanga and kaitiakitanga, and that\u2019s exactly what this Budget does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s break it down. These are the things that I went out there and I talked about over the last couple of weeks at the rugby clubs, at the marae\u2014talking to our wh\u0101nau about what we\u2019re doing. There is $2 billion worth of investment over four years for the future of M\u0101ori. This year\u2019s Budget will deliver for our people, and, as I\u2019ve said over the last few weeks, this is really resonating with our voters out there. This Budget continues to improve the lives of our wh\u0101nau. It continues to strengthen our communities around Aotearoa while rebuilding our core public services\u2014things like health, things like education\u2014and all to provide a better future for our wh\u0101nau and for our tamariki. We have allocated $58.5 million for M\u0101ori-specific funding, with wh\u0101nau development at the core, which is going to improve outcomes for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re going to provide a boost to M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau incomes, with $1.2 billion allocated in the Families Package. Now, when I went out there and I talked about the Families Package, you\u2019d be surprised just how many people had forgotten about it. It was released in December. We are paying for it this year in the Budget, but it was worthy of slowing it down and really talking to our wh\u0101nau out there about what exactly the Families Package was. So I got great pleasure in sharing with them that 384,000 families were going to be lifted out of poverty with a hand up and a handout of $75 a week, on average.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re talking about extending paid parental leave\u2014at the moment, 22 weeks this July, and 26 weeks that\u2019ll be lifted to by July 2020. The Best Start payments, as well, were also a lift for all of those families out there, especially grandparents, who knew just how much the struggle was for their children to be able to bring kids up in this world. While house prices have gone through the roof, wages haven\u2019t been keeping up, so there\u2019s been a lot of concern about the impact of that on families. So, you can imagine, grandparents were stoked to be able to hear that this Government was actually going to be helping out our new families. They say that if you take care of baby in the first 1,000 days of life, you\u2019re setting that baby up for a future\u2014a strong future\u2014and that\u2019s exactly what that Best Start payment is geared towards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI would love to slow down just for a moment and talk about the winter energy payment, because you would be surprised just how many people didn\u2019t know about it. When I went out there and I spoke about it, they had no idea, so I got great pleasure in standing there and talking to them about the winter energy payment, which is $450 over the winter to help out with the cost of heating your house. Koroua, kuia, pakeke were all very excited about this because, as we all know, we\u2019ve heard stories over the years about some of our elder members of society not actually wanting to turn the heater on because it\u2019s a little bit too expensive. So what do they do? They sit in their very cold houses, they put on a jacket, they go and put on a scarf, maybe even a beanie as well, just to try and keep themselves warm and to save on the cost of the heating. Well, I got great pleasure in standing there and telling some of the older members of our society, of our community, that, actually, this year the Government is going to help them out with a winter energy payment so they can be warm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EMore than $700 million in funding in this Budget will have a high impact on M\u0101ori households around the country. So we are all about rebuilding core public services. We are all about manaakitanga and bringing that back to our people. That $2 billion of investment is on top of the $42 billion in spending over the next five years to rebuild and properly fund our infrastructure and our public services. Now, to do that, we\u2019ve got to keep our country strong. We\u2019ve got to be ready for the future challenges that our tamariki, our mokopuna, are going to face, and that\u2019s very important\u2014so many things that we could rave about in this Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI also got the pleasure of having meetings back home in Rotorua to talk to wh\u0101nau there about what we\u2019re doing in terms of housing those people that don\u2019t have any houses. Our homelessness crisis is real. Rotorua boasts the statistic, sadly, of the second-highest rate of homelessness in the whole of New Zealand. It\u2019s not something that our people are very proud of back home, so I got great pleasure in talking about the expansion of the Housing First policy and what that\u2019s going to do to be able to enable our people that have no houses\u2014that have, for whatever reason, found themselves without a house over this very cold winter. We\u2019re going to start finding some solutions for them. We\u2019re going to build long-term solutions, and not just short-term, band-aid solutions to the homelessness problem. We\u2019ve actually got the goal of ending homelessness\u2014what an admirable goal that is. How about that? We\u2019re aiming to end homelessness and we\u2019re trying to do that through our Housing First programme, so I was stoked to be able to go back and tell the community that we have a goal, and it is to end homelessness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI was also quite happy to go back home and to talk about the Crown-M\u0101ori relations portfolio, which has reared its head in this Budget for the first time, and I\u2019m proud of that. I\u2019ve been to a couple of meetings\u2014one in Rotorua, one in Taup\u014D\u2014about the Crown-M\u0101ori relationship, and lots of people are highly engaged in this particular portfolio, looking for opportunities, trying to understand what our steer is when it comes to Crown-M\u0101ori relations. There are a few themes that kept coming through quite strongly, one being the relationship that M\u0101ori, that iwi, have with their local council. That was something that kept coming up again and again and again. I look forward, actually, to our Minister for Crown/M\u0101ori Relations feeding back to us, giving us the report back on what exactly the feedback has been around the country and what we can do going forward, especially as a Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EOne more thing that I\u2019d like to tick off just before I wrap up is the excitement that people had when I told them that this Government was going to raise the minimum wage\u2014that we actually have taken it up to $16.50 an hour, which is going to make 28,000 M\u0101ori better off. We\u2019re looking to increase that even more over the coming years, and I think that that is a signal that, actually, we\u2019re doing a good job. We\u2019re taking care of our people. We are indeed bringing manaakitanga back to our Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022 data-id=\u00228c78ee981b6a41eab6f184526d635ed5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c78ee981b6a41eab6f184526d635ed5\u0022\u003EHAMISH WALKER (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to start by acknowledging Sir Bill English. It\u2019s the first day we\u2019ve rejoined, come back to Parliament, after Bill was knighted as a Sir. Bill, being the previous MP for Clutha-Southland, gave me some reasonably good advice. He said, \u201CHamish, listen 80 percent of the time; talk 20 percent of the time.\u201D\u2014something the Government on the other side there could learn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EI just want to talk about the Budget debate. I want to talk about two things in particular. One is what is happening in health services in my electorate, Clutha-Southland, which is a wonderful electorate. It\u2019s got roughly 2 percent of the population, yet we produce close to 15 percent of the country\u2019s GDP, and judging by this Budget, this Government simply doesn\u2019t care about the regions. Mr Jones over there\u2014of your billion-dollar growth fund, $62 million has gone to Northland; the remaining $42 million has gone to the rest of New Zealand. In Clutha-Southland, we have got $250,000 out of a total $104 million that\u2019s been allocated so far, and, Mr King, up your way it\u2019s $62 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EI just want to talk about this Government\u2019s campaign messaging last year: \u201CWe are going to increase health and we are going to look after rural New Zealand.\u201D If we talk about health, over the next four years there\u2019s been an increase of $3.2 billion; over the next year, roughly $782 million. Last year, National increased health by just under $900 million, and this year we were planning to by around about $932 million. So an increase this year of $782 million compared to what we were planning\u2014$932 million\u2014doesn\u2019t really stack up with the messaging last year, does it? Over the next four years, an increase of $3.2 billion; National had pledged to increase it by $3.9 billion. Why is that? The man I mentioned at the start of my speech, Sir Bill English\u2014in 2008, we were hit by a huge global financial crisis, and we had the Christchurch earthquake. He managed to steer us through those tough times without cutting any services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EIf we take Clutha-Southland, I just want to talk about our services just for a couple of moments. Let\u2019s look at health services, for example. Several months ago it started for me after I saw the Minister of Health, Dr David Clark. He appointed a Dunedin Hospital rebuild advisory panel. What do you know? There\u2019s no one from Southland and rural Otago on that panel; they\u2019re all from Dunedin, and they have North Island consultants. That\u2019s when it started to go wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EThen I sort of started to question: \u201CWhy doesn\u2019t this Government care about the region? Why doesn\u2019t it care about Clutha-Southland?\u201D And what do you know? All of a sudden the Lumsden maternity hospital, which is bang-smack in the middle of Southland, is facing, right now\u2014it\u2019s been a birthing unit for decades, a very successful birthing unit\u2014being downgraded. Why? Because this Government doesn\u2019t give a toss about the regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EFor anyone that doesn\u2019t know Southland, Lumsden is literally the heart\u2014it\u2019s right in the middle. Hundreds of babies have been born there, and this is like the glue of the community. If you downgrade this wonderful facility, it\u2019s like ripping the heart out of Clutha-Southland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EI was there six or seven weeks ago, on a Friday afternoon, meeting a lovely couple from Queenstown. They\u2019re in their mid-20s. They were very excited. She gave birth that morning. She drove from Queenstown, driving through to Invercargill\u2014a 2- to 2\u00BD-hour drive\u2014to give birth. Anyone that knows the area, Five Rivers\u2014and baby had started to come\u2014knows that Invercargill from there is about an hour and a half. Luckily, they got 15, 20 minutes down the road. They made it to Lumsden and, within five minutes, baby was born. Now, if that facility wasn\u2019t there, this baby, without a doubt, would have been born on the side of the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EI just want to highlight a letter, and I just want to highlight the good works. People like Sarah Stokes, who\u2019s a midwife there, has been doing an amazing job, along with the board of directors. They are fighting. I started a petition; we had 5,100 signatures presented to the Minister of Health. We had a protest march through the streets of Lumsden; we had 300 or 400 people turn up. This is what the centre means to the people of Clutha-Southland. So every day for the last month, the directors have been sending emails to the Prime Minister and phoning her office, and she\u2019s not even acknowledging them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EI just want to read out a letter from them: \u201CDear Jacinda, I am writing to you with regards to the proposal which has been put forward to downgrade the Lumsden Maternity Centre. If Lumsden Maternity Centre is closed I believe there is a huge risk that babies will be born on the side of the road. I\u2019ve been fortunate enough to be able to use the facility for my births, and six weeks ago I gave birth to our second son at Lumsden following a quick labour. We left our house at 7.27 p.m., and I drove towards Lumsden. With favourable road conditions our estimated travel time was 40 minutes. My husband had tried to time my contractions during the drive, but he gave up as we had travelled five kilometres and he had counted six contractions, all with less than a minute between the next one starting. An un-forecast tail wind reduced our travel time to 33 minutes, and when we arrived at Lumsden there was nothing to do but give a wee push, and our beautiful baby was born at 8.15 p.m. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u201CAs my first birth was also very quick, I\u2019d been warned to make haste the second time round, but I really struggle to see how I could have left for a birthing facility any earlier than I did, and had Lumsden not been available, there is every possibility that I would have had to deliver my beautiful baby on the floor of my husband\u2019s dirty Hilux somewhere in rural northern Southland. Our closest staffed ambulance is 45 minutes\u2019 drive away. As I haemorrhaged during the birth of my first child, there is every chance that I could have been left to deliver on the side of the road and bleed out while I waited for emergency services to attend me. Closing Lumsden Maternity Centre will achieve nothing but endanger the lives of our most vulnerable for a grand total sum of $370,000 per annum. I\u2019m disappointed that the Minister of Health is not concerned about this matter and that requests to meet with trustees of the Lumsden Maternity Centre have been declined.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EThis is just absolutely disgraceful. What this Government is doing is basically degrading women to give birth on the side of the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EWhile we\u2019re talking about health services in my electorate, just over the border in Waitaki, Jacquie Dean\u2019s electorate, is the Roxburgh children\u2019s camp. Now, if you care about the most vulnerable children\u2014some of these children have been sexually abused, physically abused, emotionally abused. This is a wonderful centre. I spoke to a boy three or four weeks ago, who is now 20 or 21, and he said to me that the reason why he\u2019s still here is the fact that he got to use that centre numerous times. Before using that centre, he had no confidence, he couldn\u2019t make friends. After he used the centre, it was just enough to give him a wee bit of confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003ENow, the fact that I have a problem with this is that just a few months later, along came the rescue helicopter base bid. A couple of months ago, it was said to us, \u201CWell, if a mother\u2019s giving birth in Te \u0100nau, they can just catch the chopper from Te \u0100nau to Invercargill.\u201D What do you know? The Te \u0100nau rescue helicopter base is now on the chopping block as well. If you truly care about rural New Zealand, don\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268b4cf9b8f9340aa828a8b33d1efe356\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Don\u2019t bring me into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022355e468032094dbbb966fbbfe84ada33\u0022\u003EHAMISH WALKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c68a825428c6448eaa28648f2befbca7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: You were going very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e34da7e38b124ebf96633e7e360bfacc\u0022\u003EHAMISH WALKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you. If you truly care about rural New Zealand, now is not the time to cut health services such as the Te \u0100nau rescue helicopter base, the Lumsden maternity hospital, and the Roxburgh children\u2019s camp, which looks after the most vulnerable. We saw $600,000 be gutted just a few months ago from the Rural Health Alliance, yet they\u2019re quite happy to go and give $2.8 billion to some of our most fortunate people\u2014those are students who are so fortunate they get to go and study at university. Now, I did the maths: $2.8 billion for students would keep, roughly, 2,100 Lumsden maternity centres home. So, at the moment, it\u2019s all a bit much for my electorate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EThe people of Clutha-Southland are actually wondering what they need to do to get a meeting with the Minister of Health or actually be acknowledged by people like the Prime Minister. It\u2019s an absolute disgrace. I hope the Government take a look at themselves in the mirror. If you rip the heart out of Lumsden by degrading the Lumsden maternity hospital, you will see mothers give birth on the side of the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9277fe0677543c3bf32fe5e43f19440\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9277fe0677543c3bf32fe5e43f19440\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E What an absolute privilege it is to stand here and talk about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db29b05544c440819c7c72795ae2b906\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s a privilege to listen to you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251cfecc592ce4c29a626a049f67b67f0\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, the Hon Grant Robertson. I appreciate the feedback only three seconds into my speech. This is a marvellous Budget. This is a Budget that is typical of a first-term Labour Government that sets up the foundations for nine, 12, 18 years of success because, unlike the previous Government, we don\u2019t waste the opportunities that are in front of us. We don\u2019t inflict nine years of neglect on to the nation. We take a responsible approach to setting up appropriations into key areas that are important to this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, we have just had two weeks\u2019 recess. What that means, of course, for those watching at home, is that\u2019s two weeks away from Parliament. I can assure the good people of this nation it is not a two-week break. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat you would think, if we were leading up to a two-week recess, is that the National MPs in this House would use that opportunity to actually listen to people\u2019s feedback on this Budget. They would test the rhetoric that they applied, leading up to that break, in response to the Budget to see if it rang true. They had an opportunity to talk to people, to get some feedback, and to then come back, buoyed with passion, excited about what they had heard back from the people that they represent, and what have we heard today? Nothing. We have had deflated speeches from bored Opposition members who have run out of ideas. We have seen members from that side of the House who really should be holding this Government to account and, instead, we have heard people that are just making up the 10 minutes because they\u2019ve got a job to do, and, in fact, it seemed to me, anyway, that they did not believe what they were saying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, going out and about in the last two weeks in the Wairarapa, I\u2019ve heard some very positive feedback about this Budget, and that doesn\u2019t reflect the speech that we\u2019ve just seen from the good member for Clutha-Southland. I was down in Clutha-Southland recently, at the Century Farm awards with the great Minister the Hon Shane Jones, and I ask\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9f133e0ae71417588a67c96330cbbb8\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, provincial champion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275b729b261644b9191d6fc50564e67b6\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right\u2014that\u2019s right. It is a great honour, as perhaps the second citizen of the regions, to acknowledge the first citizen of the regions and the impact that he is having in our regional and rural areas. So there we were down in Lawrence, the heart of National country. You\u2019d think that having two New Zealand First MPs, the Hon Shane Jones and Mark Patterson\u2014the local boy\u2014and myself go down there, as three MPs from the Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220da472b0c4d84a7985ad3203a003daf6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I wouldn\u2019t refer to a member in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad8eac7b5db46be96d7280d4d1fe3b3\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I assure you he wouldn\u2019t mind, but I take it on board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2c5e50d0a9844c0b17480647492aa29\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: No, well, I mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227391dbeae7234ce696be263d95fc8649\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that. I apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e058c358bd14ab99fe842d08cf0452a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223992eb1adb9d44d49e11e0c72e7c8e29\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CThe locally based MP\u201D, I should have said. You\u2019d think that having three representatives from the Government go to the heart of National Party territory would be a prime opportunity for these people\u2014all of whom, pretty much, were farmers\u2014to come and talk to the representatives of the Government and tell them about the Budget. Did we hear the negativity that the National Party MPs have been outlining today? No, we did not. What we heard was that the Budget that Grant Robertson brought forward and produced to this House did not live up to the fears\u2014the fearmongering\u2014that the National Party MPs on the other side of the House laid down in preparation for the Budget. It\u2019s set the foundation for a strong economy, because, of course\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea789749af224338a78ceeaa050f0fa9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How\u2019s business confidence? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226426d0bd703f4cc4b35067992dd7deb3\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the contribution from the soon-to-be former MP for Nelson\u2014thank you very much. That MP must be very disappointed to see the results from Northcote. That MP must be very disappointed to see the results from Northcote, because what the Northcote result said is that that member cannot bring about a by-election because the National Party can no longer stand on their record of nine years. If there was a swing of 4 percent like there was in Northcote, we would have a new MP. So, as sorry as I am to say it, it looks like we\u2019ll be looking at Dr Nick Smith for at least two years longer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat I was about to say was about the strength of the economy. It is indeed forecast to continue to grow through to 2022. There is a surplus this year of $3.1 billion, forecast to increase to $7.3 billion in 2021-22. These are the things that matter to people in rural New Zealand, and that is why people in Lawrence and people in Wairarapa are not mirroring what we\u2019re hearing from the National side of the House today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI went to the Great Eketahuna Cheese Festival of a couple of weeks ago\u2014my t\u016Brangawaewae. The people there are true National Party supporters\u2014except for the McAnulty family, of course\u2014who took the opportunity to come to see the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor and congratulate him on his approach to Mycoplasma bovis and to congratulate this Government on its commitment in the Budget of $85 million, plus a contingency to cover the cost if we chose to go for eradication, which, of course, we have. This is a decision that has been celebrated in rural New Zealand. It is yet another example of this Government investing in the things that are important, not only to this country but to rural and regional New Zealand as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow New Zealanders have a choice. They can listen to the contributions of the member for Clutha-Southland and fall into the trap of assuming that the Labour Government is not committed to rural New Zealand. I could not disagree more. This Government is deeply committed to the benefit of rural New Zealand, and you only need to look at the Provincial Growth Fund to see why, with $1 billion per year committed to encouraging economic growth in the regions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe could have done what the previous Government did in the last nine years\u2014we could have left this to the market. We could have\u2014as Simon Bridges has said very recently\u2014believed in the trickle-down effect, but of course this side of the House and the majority of the voters in the country know that the trickle-down effect lost any credibility 20 years ago. You only need to travel around rural New Zealand and see the lack of opportunities leading into the last election for our young people living there, the struggling regional manufacturing base, and the threat through underfunding of biosecurity and a lack of investment in the regions to see that the trickle-down effect\u2014the \u201Cleave it alone and she\u2019ll be right\u201D approach of the National Government\u2014failed regional New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut now, they have a Government that is committed to making sure that economic development, economic growth, and the benefits of economic growth are distributed fairly, not just in the cities\u2014not just in Auckland, Wellington, or Christchurch\u2014but where the heart of the economy lies, which is in our rural areas, in places like Waipukurau and Waipawa in Central Hawke\u2019s Bay, Dannevirke and Pah\u012Batua in Tararua, and, of course, the beautiful and the mighty Wairarapa Valley. It\u2019s areas like this that need the support of Government, and, of course, it is a founding principle of the Labour Party\u2014and a principle that our coalition partners in New Zealand First and our confidence and supply partners in the Green Party adhere to as well\u2014that the Government has a responsibility to ensure that the economic activity benefits everyone, regardless of who you are, who your parents are, or where you live. It is vitally important that economic benefits flow down to our regions and that just like when my parents grew up in Eket\u0101huna or when my grandparents grew up in the wider Wairarapa, the opportunities that were available to them continue to be available to the next generation and the generation after that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt wasn\u2019t that long ago that leading economists in this country predicted zombie towns in proud areas like Whanganui. With Budgets like this one, delivered by this Labour coalition Government, the regions can actually have faith that in this House, there is a Government that\u2019s going to put its money where its mouth is and actually look after these regions, look after the people that live there, and make sure that there are opportunities there, so that we are indeed a Government for all New Zealand, not just for big business and not just for those who live in the big urban areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis is a foundation Budget that\u2019s going to set the scene by reinvesting in health, education, and housing across the board. This is setting the scene for a very long and successful tenure of a Labour-led Government. I\u2019m very proud to speak in support of the Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00228acd497d7522416091e46607392e8afc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228acd497d7522416091e46607392e8afc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the member, I just need to advise you that this will be a shortened call to allow the Minister of Finance his reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u00228c202247116b4545ba14eb1a3dfed8fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c202247116b4545ba14eb1a3dfed8fa\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. I just want to reflect, in my comments this afternoon, on some reflections that I had when I listened to the finance Minister give the speech that kicked this all off\u2014and now, of course, I have to sit down and listen to him follow me\u2014a few weeks ago. The thing that struck me when I listened to him is how much it was like we were still back in 1992. You see, I met this man 25 years ago, when he was a student politician. He was a student politician in Otago and I was in Waikato, and he was as likeable then as he is now\u2014I\u2019ll give him that credit\u2014but back then, the two of us used to hold the view that education, above all else, was a right and not a privilege. When we used to reflect on that as student presidents, I would test him with: \u201CAnd so does this apply to the wider needs of society?\u201D He\u2019d say, \u201CAbsolutely. I come from a philosophy that every single issue in society, the Government can solve. I come from a philosophy that whenever there is a need in society, Government will step up and provide the solution.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ETwenty-five years on, I would like to think that over that period\u2014perhaps through the experience of being out of Government, being out of the bureaucracy\u2014some of my perspectives in life have matured, but I am sad to say, listening to this Minister talk to this Government, that they haven\u2019t in his case, because when the Minister stood up and put this Budget on the ground for us to see, you could see that there was a philosophy, above all else, that everything that they had talked to as a crisis in this country would be acknowledged with just a little bit of money. There was no plan, no coherence whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EAnd what was the very first thing that this former student president did when he had the opportunity to frame up a vision for this country? It was, \u201CYou know what? I want to go back to the Grant Robertson that I still I am at heart, the Grant Robertson of 1992, which is free education. Despite the official advice that it would not make a difference in terms of accessibility for New Zealanders, I still want to do it.\u201D\u2014$2.8 billion over four years, and the advice is that, actually, there\u2019ll be less students enrolled this year than the last three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThere is no coherence\u2014there is no coherence. There is no plan. It is a little bit of cash for everybody to try and keep a sense of momentum. There is no expectation around the investment on behalf of taxpayers of New Zealand\u2014$80 billion of expense. There is no expectation around delivery, around outcome, or around actually making a difference for the money that you spend, because for the Labour Party, success is how much you spend, not the difference you make in people\u2019s lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThere are no Better Public Services targets. The previous Government was forensic on behalf of the taxpayer in saying, \u201CWe will spend this money judiciously. You have earned it, we have taxed it; we will spend it judiciously.\u201D We will stand and fall on the record of a Government that delivers for people. We will not stand up and say \u201CVote for us because we know how to spend.\u201D, because the function of success in a modern economy is not how well you spend; it is the difference you make for people, and that requires a coherent plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThere was no coherent plan in this Budget\u2014none at all. It was tied together by a whole lot of spending initiatives; their only coherence was they were in the same document. There was absolutely no strategic thought into how to drive an economy to be more productive, to deliver more for New Zealand, and, more importantly, to stand behind the specifics of \u201CWe will spend this money and we will make a difference for you, and you can hold us to account on how we have fundamentally changed your families\u2019 lives.\u201D I do not think that the test of this Budget around making a difference has been anywhere near passed. In fact, it is a failure when you consider the legacy of economic performance that that Government, that finance Minister, inherited. In my opinion, it\u2019s a disgrace, it is a failure of leadership and of strategic coherence, and it deserves the reaction that it is getting from New Zealand. Sir, I don\u2019t know which community you\u2019re listening to when you\u2019re testing this Budget\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u002214d5b58d12c94bf4bb017794e03b19d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214d5b58d12c94bf4bb017794e03b19d4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I apologise to the member; your time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00221ed025ac96b74452968cad6fb2ba38b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ed025ac96b74452968cad6fb2ba38b2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great privilege to stand here today, at the end of this Budget debate, and reflect not only on the contributions that we\u2019ve heard in here but indeed on the reaction in the wider community. And I do want to thank all members of the House for their contributions to the Budget debate. It\u2019s an important occasion for members of this House to be able to express their values and how those values turn into action. Mr Muller and I have, indeed, known each other for the best part of 25 years, and I\u2019ll give Mr Muller this: he\u2019s always been a \u201Csoft Tory\u201D. He\u2019s always been someone who\u2019s actually got a kind enough heart, but he just can\u2019t quite bring himself to believe that the privilege of being in Government offers the opportunity for the Government to be a partner in the economy and a partner in society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs I go around the country, and I\u2019ve done about 14 public meetings about this Budget, the message that I\u2019m getting back from communities as diverse as the Pasifika community, local government representatives, and business representatives is that they are welcoming a Government that actually wants to listen\u2014a Government that sits down and engages with them about what is possible for our communities today. After nine long years of being told what to do by the previous Government but not being given the support to do it, there is now finally a Government in place that will listen and that will partner with our communities, and I am very proud and privileged to have delivered the Budget that begins that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ECan I say at the outset that I want to acknowledge, as I did in the Budget speech, the support of our coalition and confidence and supply partners. I want to acknowledge that in a Government like this, we are not always going to always agree on every single detail of what comes in front of us. But the three parties that make up this Government believe in one thing for sure: we can do so much better than what we have seen for the last nine years. We are a better country than one that leaves so many people out and so many people behind, be those the people who have found themselves homeless or be those the regions of New Zealand who have found themselves neglected by the previous Government. We know we can be better, and this Budget is the foundation for a better, fairer, and more prosperous New Zealand, and one where that prosperity is enjoyed and shared by all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s easy when reflecting on the Budget to talk about the big numbers, and there are some big numbers in this Budget: a billion-dollar Provincial Growth Fund, a billion-tree programme. There\u2019s $590 million going into early childhood education (ECE). But what I want to spend some time doing right now is talk about a different kind of number, and it\u2019s a number that relates to people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll give you a few examples. Next year, a thousand extra young people are getting access to the ongoing resourcing scheme (ORS) that we use for learning support. I was on an aeroplane, going to do a Budget speech recently, and there was a mother of a five-year-old autistic boy there. She didn\u2019t have the confidence to talk to me on the plane, but she sent me a message on Facebook straight afterwards, and she said, \u201CI haven\u2019t voted for your Government before, but I did at this election because I know that my boy needs more support and all the people like him need more support.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAnd I am incredibly proud that in this Budget, we have over $270 million more going into learning support, that we have 2,900 deaf students and 1,500 low-vision students getting more support out of this programme, that we have an extra 1,900 ECE students getting more learning support, and that we have 1,000 more students getting ORS support. That means those people and their families can truly participate in school life, and that\u2019s the kind of number that means something to me when I look at this Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s the same with the 200,000 children in our early childhood education system who, for the first time in a decade, every single one of them, will benefit because there is an across-the-board funding increase for ECE\u2014the first time in a decade. And what we know, on this side of the House, in the Government, is that those first 1,000 days of a child\u2019s life are so, so critical, and we will be continuing to invest in that throughout the three terms in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESome other numbers that are about people: 1,500 new teachers\u20141,500 new teachers funded in this Budget to make sure that we continue to ensure that every child is getting a world-class education. We need to do this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen we look to the health sector, 56,000 young people are now getting free doctors visits as a result of the extension to the age of 14 for free doctors visits, and 540,000 people are paying $20 to $30 a week less to go to the doctor. The very half a million New Zealanders who put off going to the doctor because it cost too much last year now know that it will be cheaper because we, as a Government, have invested in it. That is what a good Government does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere are the 150 front-line providers of family violence services who get their first increase in a decade, as well. When I was in Christchurch, I toured a community centre, along with the Hon Megan Woods, and we met the people from Shakti. This is the refuge service that provides services to people from ethnic backgrounds, Middle Eastern backgrounds, Asian backgrounds. They have struggled, year upon year, to get support, and this Budget delivers that support for the first time in a decade. That\u2019s what Budgets are about\u2014making a difference in the lives of New Zealanders\u2014and we are very proud to have done that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn the housing area: the 34,000 extra families that will benefit from actually getting existing transitional housing; the 1,400 people who will be part of the Housing First programme, extending out that programme that actually says, \u201CWe\u2019ll house you first, and that\u2019ll enable us to sort out the other issues that are in your life.\u201D And we\u2019re very pleased to do that in Auckland, Christchurch, Tauranga, Hamilton, Wellington, and Lower Hutt\u2014all of those places where too many people are seen on the streets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat is what a Budget can do when a Budget focuses on people\u2014when we recognise that it\u2019s not the end of the road just to generate economic prosperity but that, as a society, we use that prosperity to invest in our future to make sure that our focus is on future generations. It\u2019s why, when we look at this Budget, when we put together the 100-day plan and the Families Package, and when we put that alongside the foundational investments in health, and housing, and education, we can say for sure: this Budget marks the beginning of a transformation in the way that we understand what success is in this country. And I am very proud of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat I have heard as I\u2019ve travelled around the country since the Budget is that New Zealanders understand that this is a Budget that is also about the foundations of a new economy\u2014an economy that is more sustainable, more productive, and more inclusive. In order to do that, we invest heavily in research and development. We invest heavily in our regions. We invest heavily in the Green Investment Fund, promoted by the Green Party, to leverage those new opportunities in technology. And we make sure that we continue to support our small businesses, and we make sure that we continue to support all of our communities to thrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat is the foundation of the economy of the 21st century. The alternative is to look backwards. The alternative is to say, \u201CEverything in New Zealand was perfect on the 22 September. Everything in New Zealand was perfect.\u201D On this side of the House, we know that we can do better. We know that we need to look to the future economy where we train all of our New Zealanders to be able to adapt to a changing world of work, and where we support our industries and our communities to evolve in a just transition to a lower-carbon economy. That\u2019s what we are focused on. And we\u2019ve got the balance about right, I think, because we\u2019ve been careful and we\u2019ve been cautious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe have made sure that we have ticked off each of our Budget responsibility rules. That means that there is a surplus. We can put money aside for a rainy day, and that rainy day, in the case of Mycoplasma bovis, came pretty quickly for us. But, by making sure we have the surplus and by keeping our debt levels low, we can respond when there is a community that is in need. And I can say this to the rural community of New Zealand: we are here for you as you go through Mycoplasma bovis. We are a partner in making sure we\u2019ll give it our best shot to eradicate this disease. That\u2019s what we can do when we get the balance right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is the first Budget of three in this term. My staff wouldn\u2019t let me call it \u201CPart One of a Trilogy: A New Hope\u201D, but what it is is a Budget that sets foundations for the future, and the next two Budgets will build on that. They will build on improving those critical public services on which New Zealanders rely, and they will build on making sure that we have an economy that is fit for purpose for the middle part of the 21st century. That\u2019s what a progressive Government does. That\u2019s what this Government is doing. I am proud to have presented this Budget to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00225652b3d2f5fb4e41955eefcc14cae1c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225652b3d2f5fb4e41955eefcc14cae1c5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c9c65abb845844ba8fcbea9d137dac0c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000422\u0022\u003EThat all the words after \u201CThat\u201D be omitted and the following words inserted: \u201Cthis House has no confidence in the Government led by Winston Peters and Jacinda Ardern, because this Budget shows they are a Government that is borrowing more, taxing more and spending more\u2014but has no plans for how we as a country can earn more.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002236223ea850de41b2abff701b7fe05a8d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2018/19 Estimates) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b6dbe4c0a05f493e9f710bf522843367\u0022\u003ELand Transport Management (Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c607c31f0ad84820b02a2527a22397de\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022af70f4e0618745668edcb6ff7eb2dc2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af70f4e0618745668edcb6ff7eb2dc2c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Land Transport Management (Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EFor too long, Aucklanders have been losing hundreds of hours of time every year sitting in traffic\u2014time that they will never ever get back. The productivity losses caused by congestion are $1.3 billion every year, and that\u2019s why the Government recently announced the biggest civil infrastructure programme in New Zealand\u2019s history to get Auckland moving and it is fully funded. This is a game-changer for Aucklanders and the first step in ensuring a congestion-free alternative and a transport system that allows the roads to move more freely. This bill\u2014this regional fuel tax\u2014enables those projects to become a reality and provides a sustainable funding mechanism to fund those projects over the next 10 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Finance and Expenditure Committee received over 500 submissions from people, organisations, and individuals\u2014and, interestingly, not just from Auckland but from across the country\u2014and I want to thank all of those who made submissions, especially those who appeared in person before the committee in Wellington and in Auckland. There were many private individuals who took the time to express their views and make valuable comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAucklanders understand that they must pay a fair share to address Auckland\u2019s transport problems. This bill allows them to do that. The Automobile Association (AA) pointed out in its submission to the committee that when it surveyed its Auckland members, they were, within reason, willing to pay more to improve the transport situation in Auckland. The AA points out that a regional fuel tax has been one of the more popular funding options to help address Auckland\u2019s most critical transport challenges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis Government is committed to making the hard decisions and addressing the most difficult problems. Drift and neglect are not options for us. We said during the election that we would implement a regional fuel tax in Auckland and we are keeping our word. Our transport policy commits us to addressing the infrastructure deficit that we inherited and we\u2019re committed to striking a balance between affordability and taking urgent action on the deficit we inherited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EATAP\u2014the Auckland Transport Alignment Project\u2014predicts that public transport ridership will go from 93 million annual boardings to around 170 million under this 10-year plan. ATAP will build 125 kilometres of new cycleways. The plan forecasts a 60 percent drop in deaths and serious injuries between 2017 and 2027, and it is fully funded. For the first time ever, Auckland has a fully funded transport investment plan co-funded and co-governed by central government and local government. Without the regional fuel tax, Auckland would have a $4.3 billion transport funding hole and would be virtually unable to build any new projects to address rapidly worsening congestion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe regional fuel tax enables 200 kilometres of bus priority improvements across Auckland, providing bus travel time savings of up to 30 percent on completed routes, a new bus station and route at Sylvia Park, a bus interchange in Lower Albert Street for the North Shore Busway and a similar interchange in Quay Street, improved access to the airport for the 40 million annual passengers by 2044, and the 27,000 extra jobs that are predicted in the airport precinct. The Eastern Busway\u2014that I would have thought Jami-Lee Ross would be supporting\u2014will increase public transport patronage in electorates like Botany from 5.8 percent to 13 percent, more than doubling public transport patronage in that member\u2019s electorate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe regional fuel tax enables park-and-rides in Hibiscus Coast, Westgate, K\u016Bmeu, Drury, and Paerata; 20 additional trains and the construction of associated facilities to house and maintain them; redevelopment of the downtown ferry terminal to deal with an expected 40 percent growth in ferry journeys over the next 10 years and a road safety programme for a large number of high-risk intersections. In the last five years, Aucklanders have experienced a 65 percent increase in road deaths and serious injuries. In 2017, this equated to 64 deaths and 749 serious injuries\u2014a level of road trauma that has not been seen in the city since 1996. The combined impact of the accelerated programmes allowed by this regional fuel tax is estimated to reduce deaths and serious injuries by 60 percent over the next 10 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis regional fuel tax also enables Penlink. It enables Mill Road and many more projects across Auckland\u2014projects that were talked about but nothing was done about over the last nine years. The bill enables a regional or unitary council to seek funding for specific transport-related projects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve indicated\u2014the Government\u2019s indicated\u2014that in this term of Government, only Auckland will be able to put in place a regional fuel tax under this bill. The regional fuel tax must be applied for and that application must be for identified and specific capital projects. It is not there to pay for business-as-usual operating expenditure. The bill allows for a regional fuel tax of up to 10c per litre, and our modelling shows that this could result in between $150 million and $170 million a year in the case of Auckland. The bill enables a tax that will apply to both petrol and diesel but for no more than 10 years. This period of time gives Auckland funding certainty to deliver on major transport projects, but it requires it to come back to its citizens and to Ministers if it wants to go beyond the 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EA regional fuel tax is not, as some have suggested, a blank cheque to Auckland Council. Both Ministers and the residents of the region expect to see delivery of the things that the regional fuel tax was raised for. I want to acknowledge that the regional fuel tax will add costs to Auckland motorists and to Auckland families. The combined effect of the Auckland regional fuel tax and the proposed increases to fuel excise duty will cost an average family $5 per week. This Government has put $75 per week into the pockets of 384,000 low and middle income families. That puts it into perspective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ECongestion costs are regressive. The best way to deal with the regressive nature of the cost of congestion is to invest in a modern rapid transit and public transport system for our biggest city that will give people genuine transport choices. The worst thing for low-income people is having no transport choices and being forced into the most expensive option, which is utter dependence on every working adult having to own and run a car in order to live and survive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe select committee\u2019s report back recommended a number of sensible changes to the bill that was introduced into this House. They include enabling a regional council to exclude a part of its region from the regional fuel tax, requiring Ministers to give consideration to regulations for rebates for fuel used off road, and requiring the Transport Agency to report on revenue costs, fuel prices and volumes, and compliance. These recommended changes are broadly sensible, and are reflected in the bill as reported back to the House from the select committee. I am actively considering now how to best ensure that the eligibility for a rebate for fuel used off road is both principled and practical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis regional fuel tax enabled by this bill allows us to move ahead with a $28 billion, fully funded transport investment plan for our country\u2019s biggest city. That plan is designed to get Auckland moving. It is designed to give people a genuine congestion-free alternative that they currently do not have. It is designed to give people\u2014and especially in peak hour\u2014an alternative to spending hours stuck in gridlocked motorway traffic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAlongside KiwiBuild\u2014our plan to build affordable housing\u2014our urban development authority to lead large-scale projects, our plans to fix infrastructure financing and reform the planning system, these reforms will allow our city to make room for growth, to provide a congestion-free alternative, and unleash the growth and prosperity denied Auckland under nine years of drift and neglect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ceea39772c6b4b3187695fd597ed0728\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ceea39772c6b4b3187695fd597ed0728\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E I always enjoy watching the faces of the Labour backbenchers as Phil Twyford is answering questions in the Parliament during question time, because you can see the despair on their faces after his performances in the House. I think, having now listened to him give that second reading speech, members of the public watching will understand the concern that the Labour Party has around Phil Twyford. Never before have they seen someone so excited to come to the House to talk about taxing people more, because that\u2019s, effectively, what this Land Transport Management (Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s about taxing people more\u2014a tax that isn\u2019t necessary; a tax that isn\u2019t supported by Aucklanders; a tax that doesn\u2019t need to be in place, because there was already a transport plan in place that was effective; a tax that will hurt low-income people the most; a tax that will hurt the very people that elected them on to the seats that they\u2019re sitting in right now. When we get to the end of this debate, when there are more taxes in place\u2014and it\u2019s going to be up to 25c a litre, because that is actually what Phil Twyford has proposed; it\u2019s not just the $5 a week\u2014it\u2019s 25c a litre on the people that are needing assistance the most with their cost of living. They\u2019re the people that will be hurt the most by this tax, and they\u2019re the people that, supposedly, they represent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThe biggest impact of this bill is to let the Labour Party Mayor of Auckland off the hook. The Labour Party Mayor of Auckland went to the public, went to the polls, and told people \u201CI will find 3 to 6 percent savings in the Auckland Council budget.\u201D Well, he hasn\u2019t. He\u2019s failed, and he\u2019s now being let off the hook by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThe reason why this tax is not necessary is because if the Auckland Council went and found the savings that Phil Goff said he\u2019d find, then this tax wouldn\u2019t be required, because more than the amount that this tax would raise would be available in the Budget because of the savings that Phil Goff said he would go and find. Phil Goff hasn\u2019t found those savings; Phil Twyford is coming to the rescue with more taxes. The people in South Auckland that are struggling the most, that have the most fuel-inefficient cars, that won\u2019t get the benefits of any taxation put in place\u2014those are the people that\u2019ll be paying and hurting the most because of this tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThe Auckland Council and Phil Twyford think this proposal has huge support. Well, there was one poll back in February that did show marginal support for the proposal, but ever since then\u2014after the efforts of Phil Twyford up and down the country, in this Parliament, and after New Zealanders have become more aware of his plans for 25c-a-litre fuel tax increases across the country\u2014public support has been dwindling, to the point where, when it came to submissions on this bill, only about 10 percent of people were actually in favour of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003ESo there was a poll back in February\u2014I\u2019ll give that to Phil Goff\u2014saying there was support. A Colmar Brunton poll said there was 52 percent support. A Colmar Brunton poll in May, though\u2014the same company\u2014now shows that 58 percent are opposed to the bill. But let\u2019s actually not just rely on political polls; let\u2019s go and ask the Auckland public what they think, because Aucklanders submitted to the Auckland Council on the regional fuel tax proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EA couple of months ago, a majority of people who submitted were opposed to the Auckland Council\u2019s plans and Phil Twyford\u2019s plans for a regional fuel tax. Under the 10-year consultation, more people were opposed to it than were in favour of it. Come again to the full consultation on the regional fuel tax\u2014a majority were opposed and a minority were in favour of it. Come to the political polls, come to the consultation undertaken on the bill\u2014more and more people are opposed to these taxes that Phil Twyford wants to put in place, and he\u2019s about the last man standing who is excited by these taxes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a fiction around these taxes that he\u2019s perpetrating in this House, as well. It\u2019s not just $5 a week for people\u2014that\u2019s turned into $150 million collected for the council\u2014but he\u2019s gone and turned that $5 a week into $150 million, which is supposedly going to be $1.5 billion over 10 years, which supposedly will lead to $4.3 billion of investment, which supposedly will lead to a $28 billion plan. Those numbers aren\u2019t real. That $4.3 billion isn\u2019t real, because most of that $4.3 billion would have been there anyway. If Phil Goff went and found the savings that he said he would go and find, then that $4.3 billion would be there anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s go to some of the comments from the people that represent those that are impacted the most by this tax. Those are the councillors\u2014actually, Labour Party councillors elected to the Auckland Council\u2014who represent the poorest people in the city that will be paying this. Efeso Collins\u2014he\u2019s a good man; he probably would\u2019ve been supported by Willie Jackson, sitting up the back there chirping away\u2014says that whilst he understood the council wanted to progress transport issues, when people were \u201Cbelow zero this is taking food off people\u2019s tables\u201D. This tax is taking food off people\u2019s tables. Daniel Newman, who represents people in South Auckland, said this is a \u201Cwholesale redistribution of wealth from some of our poorest blue collar workers who have the least transport choice to fund much of the infrastructure to serve those people who enjoy the greatest wealth.\u201D He said it wasn\u2019t fair and he didn\u2019t vote for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EIf the Labour Party were true to their values and cared about people who are hurting the most in this country, they wouldn\u2019t be putting more taxes on them. Are they going to be seeing more assistance? Are they going to be seeing more public transport? Are they going to be seeing more help from a transport perspective? No, they\u2019re not. No, they\u2019re not. This tax isn\u2019t required. There was already a plan in place that Phil Goff had signed up to with Simon Bridges, and that plan would\u2019ve also led to improvements, without the need for more taxation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford gets excited about taxing people more, but I think what he\u2019s excited about most are some of the regulation-making powers he\u2019s put into this bill. Phil Twyford stands up in the Parliament, Phil Twyford goes on the news and says \u201CIt\u2019s only 10c a litre, it\u2019s only 10c a litre.\u201D\u2014of course, add on top of that the additional tax which leads to 25c a litre that he\u2019s proposed. He\u2019s given himself the power, through regulation in this bill, to increase it at any point that he wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EIt is not a 10c-a-litre tax; it\u2019s a legislative power that this Parliament will be passing\u2014if it gets the votes from the coalition partners\u2014to give Phil Twyford, as Minister of Transport, the ability to increase regional fuel taxes as high as he wants. We asked him about it in the Parliament. We said, \u201COK, so you\u2019ve said to people it will be 10c a litre. Why give yourself that power?\u201D, and he skirted around the issue. Then we said, \u201COK. Well, if it\u2019s only going to be 10c a litre, why don\u2019t we take this out of the bill?\u201D No, no\u2014Phil Twyford doesn\u2019t want to take regulation-making powers out of the bill that will give him, as Minister, the power to increase regional fuel taxes as much as he wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EHe also went to the country and said, \u201CIt\u2019s only going to be Auckland\u2014it\u2019s only going to be Auckland. It\u2019s only required in Auckland.\u201D Well, we\u2019ve got councils lining up, up and down the country, saying they want regional fuel taxes too, and this bill actually gives the Minister, through the parliamentary legislative process, the ability to put regional fuel taxes elsewhere in the country. People in Tauranga that Clayton Mitchell purports to represent will be paying a regional fuel tax if that council gets its way and Phil Twyford signs up. The Wellington mayor is saying he wants a regional fuel tax\u2014to fund light rail, most probably, which has an appalling benefit-cost ratio that Phil Twyford doesn\u2019t seem to care about. These regional fuel taxes will be around the country, because Phil Twyford is giving himself the power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s go to price spreading. Price spreading is another issue with this bill. Phil Twyford was told by his ministry officials that price spreading would take place. It has taken place before, and we\u2019ll see fuel prices going up around the country as a result of a regional fuel tax in Auckland. Well, what are we seeing? We\u2019re seeing fuel companies, in anticipation of a regional fuel tax, increasing prices around the country. What\u2019s the biggest reason why prices are ramping up in Southland, and not so much in Auckland? It\u2019s because of the Auckland regional fuel tax. The fuel companies are doing exactly what the ministry said they\u2019d be doing, but they\u2019re giving themselves that ability in anticipation of a regional fuel tax. I think that\u2019s appalling, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s go to the consultation that the Auckland Council had in place, and did before the bill was passed. Firstly, it\u2019s pretty unusual to see consultation take place before a bill\u2019s even passed, but in this case the Ministers even had to write into the bill a bit of a \u201Cget out of jail\u201D clause, because the Auckland Council got its consultation wrong and didn\u2019t follow the bill in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThis bill is about taxing Aucklanders more in a way that is unnecessary, a way that is regressive, a way that will hurt those lowest-income people the most in the city\u2014the people that probably won\u2019t get much benefit from it. It lets the Auckland Council off the hook. It says to the Auckland mayor that he doesn\u2019t need to find the savings that he said he would, and it also leads to a situation where Aucklanders are paying more at the fuel pump\u2014up to 25c a litre\u2014when it simply isn\u2019t desirable and isn\u2019t required, and this will hurt people in the pocket. The Labour Government no longer cares about those low-income people that will be paying more tax. The Labour Government is ramping up taxes on Aucklanders, and they won\u2019t be forgiven for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1de656cf79c4c28bfafe890882881f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1de656cf79c4c28bfafe890882881f6\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E We have just heard from the one-trick pony, Jami-Lee Ross, the one-trick pony who reminds me of that figure in Dickens\u2014he\u2019s got the look, he\u2019s got the excitable language\u2014otherwise known as Scrooge. There\u2019s nothing Scrooge-like on this side of the House. We realise that if you want to fund infrastructure\u2014if you want to fund infrastructure\u2014you need to be bold; you need to take a risk and stand up and meet the challenges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s just recite a few of the facts: $28 billion committed by this side of the House over 10 years, in comparison to the miserly, stingy approach characterising the last nine years. Those days, Auckland, are over. Aucklanders know that if you want to meet the costs of modernising infrastructure, trains, or transport, you have to pay for it, and they realise that the burden has to be borne by all users of the service, because this is an investment in a transition. So this bill most certainly has the support of the first citizen of the provinces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, we realise that it\u2019s a gift that I might be bestowing on the Auckland-based fuel buyers, but in order for us, over a 10-year period, to enable Auckland to meet the targets that they were denied\u2014denied\u2014under the last nine years, unfortunately, investment, and not only investment but commitment, are required. I find it very interesting about the younger members\u2014the sophomores\u2014and even their younger cousins of the Auckland political community that have come here. They come with loud voices, but they come realising that they have nowhere to go if they want to actually themselves solve these problems in Auckland. Now, let\u2019s just think what my senior colleague Mr Twyford is offering. He is saying that not only will we utilise the monopoly powers of the State to impose an overdue opportunity for Auckland to contribute to its own works\u2014great step forward. Secondly, he\u2019s going to provide that opportunity for other regional centres, but there\u2019s such an arduous process that other centres will have to go through that there\u2019s no guarantee that Whangarei will have such an opportunity. That all lies in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, the infrastructure required in order for users and the contributors via this tax\u2014how are we going to fund that? He makes reference in his speech that we are willing to look at market mechanisms through to classic public-good failure mechanisms. That is something the other side of the House failed to do. How long did they take to build the loop? How long did they wait before they made a decision? That decision was made by Mr Bridges while Mr English was out of the country. That shows that not only did they not be straight up with Auckland but there\u2019s a deep division in themselves, because I know from the provincial members on the other side of the House that they happen to believe that Auckland ought to do the heavy lifting. Auckland ought to contribute to solve the problems that are a blight on broader New Zealand society, but they do deter regional creatures, such as myself, from spending too much time on such jobs as from time to time I might be called to respond to in Auckland, which are to share with Aucklanders the justification of trees and provinces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m being distracted. I need to come back to the underlying purpose of this piece of legislation. This legislation is actually traceable back to the work that Labour did eight, nine, 10 years ago, and why New Zealanders in Auckland are quite excited about it is it shows a willingness to be bold; a willingness to put political rhetoric into legislative action. Now, we\u2019ll hear some loud voices and caterwauling cats, etc., but the reality is that this will soon pass and it will be in the law, and Mr Twyford and Mayor Goff and the other councillors will now have a treasure trove to dip into to meet the overdue costs to upgrade the infrastructure of Auckland. And for that they will be suitably rewarded in 2020. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00221617632ec37b457db866363531eb1da6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221617632ec37b457db866363531eb1da6\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to follow the so-called, self-proclaimed first citizen of the provinces, and it\u2019s interesting that a tax that\u2019s going to affect Auckland is now defended by the Government by the Hon Shane Jones, the person who went to a select committee late last week saying, \u201CThe winner takes the booty.\u201D\u2014the winner takes the booty. And that shows the man to a T. He\u2019s prepared to take any amount of money from any taxpayer at all and spend it blindly in the hope that it might get them another term after 2020. I think this will be the legislation that actually makes New Zealanders realise what they\u2019ve got in the way of a Government of three parties that\u2019s intent on taxing, taxing, taxing. And it is, of course, yet another broken promise by the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b173071a55b84b2daed8022ae6ee3203\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: We campaigned on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a16ba9a0b8b54404a0cd4a2a8e274825\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Twyford interjects that they campaigned on it. I know his campaign pledges better than he does. What he campaigned on was an Auckland regional fuel tax, and what this legislation does is give the ability for Christchurch and Wellington and Waikato and Tauranga all to have a regional fuel tax after 1 January 2021. Mr Twyford never went round the country campaigning on a regional fuel tax for just about every region in New Zealand. He said it would be for Auckland and Auckland only, and then he surreptitiously introduces this legislation into the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIt is another broken promise, Mr Twyford, and at this stage Mr Twyford has stopped interjecting, and the rest of his Labour caucus hang their heads in shame because they know they\u2019ve actually, one of two of them\u2014Jamie Strange I see over there. He\u2019s been in Northcote. He\u2019s been knocking on the doors, doing what he can to get the odd vote for the Labour candidate. I was knocking on the doors too, Mr Strange, and they were saying to me, \u201CWe\u2019re voting for Dan Bidois. We\u2019re voting National because we\u2019re fed up with this Government, seven months on, breaking election promises and introducing yet another tax.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWe heard it all today in question time from the Hon Phil Twyford, and this is why his colleagues are worried. He acknowledged this will collect each year approximately $150 million, and then he, remarkably, said, \u201CWe\u2019ll spend $4.5 billion of that money on roads.\u201D He\u2019s the only member on the front bench of the Labour Party\u2014now, I admit the Hon Shane Jones has got a similar ability to just manufacture money from anywhere. But how the Hon Phil Twyford reckons that $150 million will automatically turn into $4.5 billion defies logic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe other interesting thing that Mr Twyford\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8200bb3b914426e998852d0d538e736\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: NZTA subsides.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022292030575a5d4515996214547f819509\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s wound up again\u2014he\u2019s wound up again. The other interesting thing Mr Twyford said in the Chamber today at question time was that this isn\u2019t a very good tax and we\u2019d be better to be congestion charging. That\u2019s what Mr Twyford said, and I agree with him. Aucklanders are fed up with being locked in traffic jams. It\u2019s totally unproductive. It\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268d1656ea15e4d8d89e0a30e2cf2dcb2\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: After nine years of neglect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c728f7dc4f24c2e8371ea87aaad0a62\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, after nine years of neglect\u2014I\u2019d say the problems built up over 20 years, Mr Twyford. But let\u2019s find a way to fix it that works. Let\u2019s find a way to fix it that works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI listened to the submissions. I carefully went through the submissions. Mr Twyford probably hasn\u2019t even bothered to read the submissions. But, all in one, they said there\u2019s a problem in Auckland and we need to find a way to fix it. We need money to fix it. Everybody agreed with that. Congestion charging was popularly submitted to the select committee. It may take a couple of years to bring in, but it was a solution, and it was a solution far better than this particular regional fuel tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EBut the submission that struck me as very, very sensible came from the Hon Ken Shirley. The Hon Ken Shirley, of course, started his parliamentary career as a Labour member of Parliament. He spoke for the Road Transport Forum, and he said there\u2019s an easy solution, Mr Twyford, if you only wanted to listen: find some money to fix the infrastructure, and do it simply by raising road-user charges (RUC), and raising the excise on petrol. That would have brought in more than $150 million. It would then have given the Government, with that money\u2014to distribute it regionally, as indeed the regional fuel tax will do after 2021. And it would have been simple to administer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe other thing that struck me as we went through the submission process was a very good submission from Federated Farmers. They came along and pointed out that there was already a fuel excise tax for which they legitimately claim a rebate for the petrol they buy on to their farm, which is then used on the farm. I\u2019m one of those farmers that applies for that rebate, and it\u2019s a nightmare. Kieran McAnulty was in the select committee the day Federated Farmers came along\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222570676e9fea4f818eb85c2054c5ae1b\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Help\u2019s on the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c6468e854704f15b12e015ca143c86a\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Twyford\u2019s got more to say. I\u2019m surprised he\u2019s got anything to say. Federated Farmers came along and showed us the forms that had to be completed by hand, put back into the mail, and sent to the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) in Palmerston North to claim this rebate. It\u2019s a nightmare of a process. We got some sort of promises from NZTA that they\u2019ll find a way to meet the modern world so we can do it by internet. But once we put a tax on diesel\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4c5a4ab8fe946099e46a3ca6ca2741e\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Stand by, help\u2019s on the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022273fef1855e34021a2b321120b40dd63\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s just said, \u201CHelp\u2019s on the way, and we\u2019re not going to put a tax on diesel.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s the whole purpose of the regional fuel tax, Mr Twyford. Get to know your own legislation. What we\u2019re going to have is a nightmare whereby those that use diesel off roads now also have to apply for a rebate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb7d940235c54df9a51d9cadf8d65a2c\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Help\u2019s on the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022844f545c3a924fa6911619b1c52b74fb\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CHelp is on the way.\u201D\u2014say that to any farmer who already frets night after night, after they\u2019ve worked hard all day, now having to fill in more forms to get legitimate money back on their diesel. And he\u2019s nodding and noting that it\u2019s going to be a nightmare, because that\u2019s what this legislation does. It imposes more impediment on people who use diesel, the majority of which is not actually used on road\u2014it\u2019s used in marine, it\u2019s used on farm services, it\u2019s used by contractors, for instance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWe had a very interesting question put to the officials, who have no idea how this works\u2014they don\u2019t support it anyway. We said, \u201CWhat about a contractor who trims hedges?\u201D \u201COh, no, that person\u2019s allowed. It\u2019s off road. They can certainly apply for and get a rebate.\u201D We said, \u201CWhat about the tractor going from one farm to another on the road?\u201D \u201COh\u201D, they said, \u201Cwe haven\u2019t thought about that.\u201D And then we said, \u201CWhat about the hedge trimmer who comes off the farm and trims the hedge along the road?\u201D \u201COh, we hadn\u2019t thought about that either.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThis is a nightmare piece of legislation, and it hasn\u2019t been worked through. If you want to see it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a14a69a9300048949a559e45f0ee4a33\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve never been the party of hedge trimmers before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284e915e4a8ff4a5291b7081573771a19\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014accepted by the public of New Zealand, Mr McAnulty, have a look at Saturday\u2019s results. Jacinda Ardern can go to Northcote as many times as she wants. She was never going to win that by-election because the dominant issue was this is a tax that is imposed on Aucklanders to fix a problem. It\u2019s a complicated tax and it won\u2019t work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ECan I conclude with a little bit of good news, because we had one win in this select committee process. I refer members to new section 65ZE(2), in clause 5. Even the Labour members acknowledged to us that this tax should not apply to any non-road use, yet nowhere in the legislation did it say that. So we argued, and with passion\u2014all the National members argued with passion\u2014to get a clause introduced into the legislation which said, \u201CThe responsible Minister must consider whether to recommend the making of regulations under subsection (1)(b) and, when doing so, must have regard to the principle that regional fuel tax is intended to be borne only by those who use fuel on public roads.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI say to Mr Twyford, if he needed the money\u2014because I think it is justifiable to argue that you needed the money\u2014to fix the infrastructure of roading in Auckland, do it the way Ken Shirley suggested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b2a334918b144c69dc41f81d5bd3275\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Tax the whole country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226489a6e1ac21403aacf29ec9945a4a32\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Stop creating another bureaucracy and do it by increasing RUC and fuel excise. When he says \u201CTax the whole country.\u201D, that\u2019s exactly what this legislation does. It\u2019s not exclusive to Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002272beb63a929743c2b7dec10c771dfeee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272beb63a929743c2b7dec10c771dfeee\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I stand here, I think, probably more proud to speak on this than any piece of legislation that I have spoken on in my time in this House. I say that because I am a proud Aucklander, a citizen of T\u0101maki-makau-rau, the first city of the South Pacific, and one of the most beautiful and dynamic places to live in this country and in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThis bill is about unlocking the potential of our city. It is about recognising that our city is a place that people want to come to and live, that they want to come to and do their business, that they want to come to and grow and thrive. We can either treat growth like something that is going to choke us\u2014because that is what it is doing now\u2014or we can treat growth as an opportunity by putting the investment into appropriate infrastructure to make sure that we harness that growth for the benefit of the people and the businesses that make up our beautiful city. That is what this bill is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to come to some of the comments from our colleagues on the other side of the House, but I want to front up by asking this simple question: where are the solutions? Where are the solutions? Have we heard a single solution to Auckland\u2019s chronic congestion from that side of the House? For goodness sake, we had the transport spokesperson\u2014I believe it\u2019s Jami-Lee Ross these days\u2014standing up and speaking on this bill, and I don\u2019t think I heard a single point of recognition that Auckland has a problem with traffic congestion let alone a single solution to that problem, which is rated by most people in Auckland as our city\u2019s single biggest problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESo I say to the National Party: that\u2019s fine. You continue with the negativity. You continue with the yelling and the screaming and the carping and the scaremongering. This Government\u2019s going to focus on the solutions, and that is what this bill is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022704c15619584439ab8fa1166614015f7\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re going to focus on fleecing the taxpayer, particularly the poor ones, because you hate them the most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022548409f93e8b4491b190bd3d6a1b69e1\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s about recognising the problem. It\u2019s about putting forward the solutions, and then\u2014and this is a new one, Mr Hudson, because your Government never got to grips with it\u2014it\u2019s about actually funding them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s a bit of credit\u2014here\u2019s a bit of credit I\u2019ll give the previous National Government. The previous National Government\u2014I do give them genuine credit for this\u2014sat down with the Auckland Council last year, and they said that we do need an agreed plan, and it was called the Auckland Transport Alignment Project (ATAP). That was a good idea. The only problem with it was they left a $6 billion funding gap right in the middle of it, so it was nothing more than a glorified wish-list. What this Government, under Minister Phil Twyford, has done is come in and said, \u201CWe are actually not just going to come up with a better plan. We are going to do the hard work of funding it.\u201D, and that is what the regional fuel tax that is enabled by this bill delivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThis bill is about getting Auckland moving. Last year, we received a report\u2014and I\u2019m sure most members of this House read a report\u2014which was put together by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research, that was supported by many of the key business groups in Auckland, that estimated that Auckland loses something like $2 billion in economic activity every single year because of the chronic congestion on our roads. So it\u2019s costing real money. But, even more than that, what I see it costing the residents of the city that I live in and the city that I love is their time. It is their time: their time to enjoy their lives; their time to spend with their families. The amount of sheer frustration that Aucklanders have sitting in their car hour after hour in gridlock is simply untenable, and our people\u2014the people of Auckland; the 1.6 million people of that region\u2014deserve so much better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESo I want to talk about the vision, and we\u2019ve heard none of that from the other side of the House. The vision that this Government has for transport in Auckland is to finally build a linked-up transport network that lets our people and our freight move around our communities in Auckland freely and efficiently. It\u2019s a vision for thriving local community centres that aren\u2019t clogged up by traffic every single hour of the day. It\u2019s a vision for kids being able to walk and cycle safely to school, like they used to be able to but they\u2019re afraid to now because the traffic is so bad and there aren\u2019t safe options for them. That is what this bill helps us get to, and that is what this bill pays for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI want to deal with those questions around the paying for it. There\u2019s no doubt\u2014there\u2019s no doubt\u2014that\u2019s the difficult bit to bite. We\u2019ve got the vision here; we\u2019ve got to find a way of paying for it. There was a $9 billion gap that this Government had to plug, and this regional fuel tax bill creates $4.3 billion of additional revenue to help us plug that gap over the 10 years. The impact is $5 per week per household, and, obviously, most people would rather not pay that\u2014I would rather not pay that, and most of my constituents wouldn\u2019t either. But when I sit down and I talk with those residents, they know the problems that they have in Auckland, and they would rather that we had the courage, collectively, to face up to those problems and to fix it at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI want to address some of the alternatives that Mr Carter spoke about in his address. Actually, as I come to Mr Carter, can I acknowledge the members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee across the House, who did work on this bill. It was a constructive select committee process, notwithstanding the fundamental disagreement on the bill. Most members of the committee did engage constructively on a number of the issues that Mr Carter highlighted in his comments, and I do want to acknowledge them, as well as the very good submitters and the officials who supported the bill as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe reality is, if we want to shift to congestion charging, we had one very excellent submitter\u2014who I\u2019m sure Mr Carter and other members of the committee will recall\u2014who were experts in this field, and who, in fact, would be one of the companies who would financially benefit from the implementation of congestion charging because their job is to implement such systems in international cities around the world. What they told us is that we\u2019re probably six years away from being able to fully implement the kind of congestion charging solution that we would really need to fund Auckland\u2019s transport. So it\u2019s an option that pretty much everyone agrees with around the table, but to say that we\u2019re going to sit back and wait for another six years as the congestion gets worse\u2014well, maybe that\u2019s the Opposition\u2019s solution; that\u2019s not what this Government\u2019s going to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe question of maybe applying road-user charges across the country\u2014really? Well, I invite the members opposite who are promoting that as a solution to go back to their constituencies and tell their residents that their solution is to have a road-user charge to fund Auckland\u2019s transport infrastructure. This bill is about Auckland taking responsibility for itself and fronting up and funding the solutions that we need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s come to the fundamental choice here. The fundamental choice is do something and deliver ATAP or not. That\u2019s what it is, and I\u2019ve yet to hear from members of the Opposition whether they\u2019re actually brave enough to front up to the residents in their constituencies in Auckland and tell them that if they were the Government, the projects would be off. That\u2019s the reality. If you can\u2019t pay for them\u2014remember, as we\u2019ve been told from that side of the House many, many times, there\u2019s no magic money tree. If we don\u2019t fund them, the projects don\u2019t happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI have here the list of projects that\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d26d0ef06b34ce88fda28fce3f4e203\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019d like to hear this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8ad1ded62234388b4fc0dfcc2c26714\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the regional fuel tax funds. One of the good things about this bill is that it\u2019s very specific. The money that is earned through the regional fuel tax can only apply to the particular projects that are in the proposal, and that\u2019s really important for people to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s talk through these. Let\u2019s talk through the fact that there are major improvements to city centre bus infrastructure. Are we going to hear from the Hon Nikki Kaye that, suddenly, we\u2019re not going to implement that? We\u2019ve got projects here to improve airport access from Onehunga and Botany. I\u2019m waiting to hear Denise Lee and Mr Ross say that we\u2019re not going to go ahead with those projects. We\u2019ve got projects here, funded by the regional fuel tax, to enable 15 new electric trains and to enable electrification to Pukekohe, My Bayly. Mr Bayly, wouldn\u2019t you love to have electric trains running to Pukekohe? Well, here\u2019s the good news, sir: help is on the way, and the regional fuel tax is going to help fund it. What about the downtown ferry redevelopment? Once again, the Hon Nikki Kaye\u2019s been pretty quiet about that one. I\u2019m sure she supports it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EMy colleague immediately to the front of me, Marja Lubeck, I think, erupted with glee earlier on when we heard about the funding from the regional fuel tax for Penlink, a project that was promised and promised over nine years of that Government but never actually delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c44866a5a7dc4ba792d4fecd87664c7d\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Two lanes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230d4a3ad747d404392a771d25d248fc4\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: You can talk about as many lanes as you want, Mr Bayly. The bottom line is you delivered zero lanes with Penlink. This Government is actually fronting up with the funding, and I look forward to Mr Mark Mitchell going to his constituents in Rodney and telling them that he doesn\u2019t support the regional fuel tax and he doesn\u2019t support the implementation of Penlink.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s a really good one: the Mill Road corridor. Let\u2019s wait to hear from the Hon Judith Collins about that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe one I want to end on is actually a very, very serious point, and that is the issue of road safety, because over the last six years, we have had an increase in the road toll of 78 percent in Auckland\u201478 percent more people dying because of a failure to invest in road safety initiatives in our city. Real lives on the line. This plan delivers road safety initiatives that will save lives. I challenge that Opposition to say that they\u2019re not going to front up and fund that through the regional fuel tax either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI want to end on this great quote from the New Zealand Herald editorial\u2014they\u2019re full of crackers. \u201CThe country\u2019s growth and productivity cannot continue to be held ransom\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002293acb85c50e2406e84f46c9eefc2dd33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293acb85c50e2406e84f46c9eefc2dd33\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7c1e7e05a7548158a043eecc360bff2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7c1e7e05a7548158a043eecc360bff2\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. Well, that was quite a revisionist approach from the Government on their bill. There must be another marked-up copy of the legislation here, because, hearing Mr Wood talk, it seems like he\u2019s added some new amendments in the second reading speech that aren\u2019t there in the report from the Finance and Expenditure Committee. One of them he says\u2014when he\u2019s contrasting with the road-user charge that Mr Carter suggested\u2014is that this legislation will not see people around New Zealand faced with extra fuel taxes and not with taxes that\u2019ll pay for Auckland roading and other transport infrastructure. Well, that\u2019s patently wrong, unless he has actually amended the bill further. We\u2019ll get to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to note Shane Jones made a comment in his contribution. He said, \u201CThis Government is not Scrooge-like.\u201D Actually, I can agree with that\u2014they\u2019re not. They\u2019re extremely fast and loose when it comes to spending other people\u2019s money. They\u2019re taxing like you wouldn\u2019t believe, at a rate of new taxes and a level of new taxes I don\u2019t think we\u2019ve seen for an awful long time, and they\u2019re very loose with where that money\u2019s going. This regional fuel tax is a good case in point, because, already, other regions are looking to get their hands on that money, and they\u2019re looking to spend it on very poorly economically performing proposals, such as in Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EI sat on the select committee for part of the evidence hearing for this bill and I was fortunate to be there when the Greater Wellington Regional Council came to make their submission. So I asked the chair of that regional council, \u201CAre you intending to apply for a regional fuel tax?\u201D In a heartbeat, he said yes\u2014in a heartbeat. We\u2019ve seen reports since then that also Christchurch, Hamilton, Tauranga\u2014apparently, the chair of Local Government New Zealand wants all councils to be able to get a piece of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003ESo this is not just a regional fuel tax to help with Auckland transport needs. This is an additional tax on hard-working Kiwis, probably across most, if not all, of New Zealand, that will then be spent on transport whims of those regions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022102ec721bf5c41289de7416214d2abbe\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c78e3118d434423b47f4b356db22552\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014many of which do not make good, sound sense. Wellington is a really good example\u2014as Ms Genter laughs. Wellington\u2019s a really good example. You see, Wellington regional councillors have been all excited since this legislation was introduced, as have many of the city councillors, because they see this as a way for them to fund their dream of light rail in Wellington from the city to the airport. Now, the estimates that have been made on that project have the cost at approximately $950 million and the total benefits over the lifetime of that project at $93 million. So, remarkably, these people want to use levers like this regional fuel tax to make an \u201Cinvestment\u201D where it would actually be economically more sensible to have a bonfire of $800 million in the middle of Frank Kitts Park than actually build the light rail, which will burn 95c of every dollar spent. It has a benefit-cost ratio of 0.05. It is in the toilet when it comes to any sort of rational economic modelling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s worse. It\u2019s worse, because it\u2019s not just the regional fuel tax that would pay for that nightmare, or their dream\u2014our nightmare, for the people who actually live in Wellington\u2014because, as a public transport system, it will be subsidised by taxpayers all across New Zealand. So not only are they going to fleece motorists in Wellington 10c a litre, plus GST, but they\u2019ll take money from hard-working New Zealanders in Timaru, in Kerikeri, in Invercargill, and they will spend it on an initiative that burns 95c of every dollar spent, and this Government is enabling that behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s enabling that thinking by putting in extra tax measures such as this regional fuel tax, which, as I say, is not limited to Auckland at all. They\u2019ve spent almost all their time talking about the Auckland Transport Alignment Project and Auckland\u2019s needs, but the reality is the regional fuel tax is a lever that is open for any regional council to apply for, and already they are lining up to do just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EBut still they think, and they want us to believe, that somehow this is good for New Zealand and it\u2019s good for Aucklanders. Well, here\u2019s a thing too I noted, as Mr Wood was speaking: they talk about how this is going to be good for people. Well, how is this going to be good for a family struggling to get by in Manukau, or down the line in Judith Collins\u2019 electorate\u2014Papakura? How\u2019s it going to be good for people in Mr Twyford\u2019s electorate of Te Atat\u016B? These are not high-income earning and they\u2019re not high socioeconomic areas of Auckland, and yet all of the evidence shows that it is more likely that the people who are lower-income earners, who will be more reliant of private transportation\u2014on cars. They are less likely to be able to afford newer and more fuel-efficient cars and they are likely to have to travel further from home for both work and leisure, so they will consume more fuel. They will pay more. They will buy more litres; therefore, they will pay more tax. It is a deeply, deeply regressive approach to try to deal with funding for transport options. What\u2019s more, it\u2019s transport options that those very people who are going to hurt the most are least likely to get any benefit from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EYou know, it occurred to me, particularly as Mr Wood was speaking, that this is a Labour Party that Michael Joseph Savage would not recognise. Now, it\u2019s quite possible, because the man, as a Prime Minister, made some pretty big infrastructure investments. I couldn\u2019t know for certain, but it\u2019s quite possible that Michael Joseph Savage might have agreed that investment should be made into the transport system in Auckland, but he would absolutely not have agreed that it should be the lower-income earners of Auckland\u2014the people in South Auckland and west Auckland, who are paying the most in terms of their disposable income\u2014hurting the most to pay for it. It is not the Labour Party that he led. It\u2019s not the legacy that he wanted to leave behind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EThis is a Labour Party that has lost its roots. It\u2019s lost its way. It was born of support for the working New Zealander and the lower-income New Zealanders, and with this very action, it is showing that it no longer cares about those members of our society, because if it was true, then they would look for means to fund these programmes which hurt those people least. They just don\u2019t care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252829a00d7a54c3285d8e35f789e941c\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Take some notes from Mr Carter. He can act. Take some notes from him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc96216ee4284ac58a25b531c087657b\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got a visitor from Canberra here\u2014that\u2019s interesting! What are you doing in the New Zealand Parliament, sir?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003ESo here they are, wanting to hurt those people most. Why would they do this? Why would they do this? You really have to wonder. Well, it\u2019s because they are an extraordinarily patronising Government. Mr Twyford has made the comment\u2014and, I believe, so too has the Prime Minister. What they said was that it will be good for them in the long term. So their answer to those poorer New Zealanders\u2014those people who are struggling to get by\u2014is \u201CWe know better than you. It\u2019ll be good for you in the long term. Sit down and be quiet. We\u2019re going to hurt you for a while, but in the long run you will thank us for it.\u201D Well, that is an absolute disgrace\u2014absolutely shocking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EThis is a bad measure. It\u2019s a bad measure also because it is absolutely not required. As Mr Ross pointed out, if the mayor of the Auckland super-city had actually done what he committed to do on the campaign trail when he was going for the mayoralty and had actually addressed the waste and addressed cost savings in the council, he could have saved more than this fuel tax will deliver his council\u2014a lot more\u2014but he hasn\u2019t done that. So this fuel tax, in effect, lets him off the hook. It also lets every other regional mayor\u2014and, to a degree, therefore, a local body mayor\u2014off the hook as well, because they can now get some free money. They can all apply for this. They can all put up some transport plans. They can all get an amount of regional fuel tax\u2014it\u2019ll always be 10c plus GST\u2014that they can levy, and because they can extract this from the back pockets of their local citizenry, then they will not have to have the same fiscal discipline on their spending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EIt is disgraceful, and what\u2019s more, it\u2019s not just going to be people in their own regions paying for their own fuel tax, because competition will compete away the additional charge in, say, Auckland, and we\u2019ll see, by default, that having to be spread across the country as participants\u2014as fuel companies in Auckland\u2014are meeting the local market price. But the cost of the product\u2019s gone up, so they\u2019ve then got to counter for that somewhere else, and that means that people from Timaru pay for Auckland\u2019s transport worries. This is an atrocious bill from a very, very bad Government that\u2019s lost its way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00224256af24594141338f58544ffdd80e7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224256af24594141338f58544ffdd80e7f\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e Te Whare. I\u2019m very proud to be part of this coalition Government that is finally listening to the people of Auckland, because it has been more than a decade that Auckland hasn\u2019t been getting the investment in the public transport infrastructure that it desperately needs. During that time, Auckland has experienced very rapid growth, so there is an urgent need to catch up on the infrastructure deficit that was exacerbated by the last National Government, who cancelled the regional fuel tax which would have funded electrification two years earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe last National Government dragged their feet on investment in the City Rail Link and claimed that we weren\u2019t going to hit 20 million passenger trips by 2020. Guess when we got 20 million passenger trips on the rail line? Three years earlier than 2020\u2014in 2017. So if that Government had been paying any attention to what was actually happening in Auckland and what was affecting ordinary people in Auckland, they would have gotten on to it and invested in electrification of the rail network. They wouldn\u2019t have delayed it. They would have invested earlier in the City Rail Link and they wouldn\u2019t have denied the need\u2014the urgent need\u2014to invest in other rapid transit lines all over Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI mean, it\u2019s pretty hilarious listening to the Opposition members\u2019 speeches. Brett Hudson, the member who spoke previously\u2014I suppose he knows a lot about the economic evaluation of transport projects, because he was referring to benefit-cost ratios of light rail. But I can tell him that, in fact, he\u2019s quite mistaken about the economic case. Now maybe he\u2019s never been overseas to the literally hundreds of other cities in the world who benefit economically from investment in transport infrastructure like light rail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231bd6e10a164457fb7857eb634fefa3f\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe the member should look at the data that\u2019s in the book Keep Wellington Moving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5894305ac404fa4a61c7014920ebd0b\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Hmm, well, actually, Mr Hudson, my Master\u2019s degree with honours was on the economic evaluation of transport projects, and what I can tell you is that the economic evaluation method used by the New Zealand Transport Agency overstates the benefits of road projects and understates considerably the benefits\u2014and, you know, I can give him reams and reams of papers written by a chief scientist at Transport for London that explain exactly why the economic evaluation understates significantly the benefits of light rail. But people in Wellington know, because they\u2019ve been overseas and they know that if you invest in a rapid transit system and it takes cars off the roads, that\u2019s the best way to reduce congestion in the city. It\u2019s the best way to improve the amenity of the city. It attracts businesses. It attracts development in the city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut, you know, OK\u2014look, obviously, the National Party are living a little bit in the past, and are a little bit unaware of what\u2019s going on. But, you know, it\u2019s amazing how they were willing to tax future New Zealanders all across the country to pay for some of their pet projects that had considerably worse economic cases than what this Government is doing, which is listening to the people of the local areas and saying, yes, we are going to empower you to allow your locally elected officials to determine the transport projects that the community actually wants and to raise that revenue locally, rather than putting a hold on the projects that people want to have funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a457278d1242421bbef5ef78a6280858\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Tax and spend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7cbe72a29384e3ab00a29ed73c3f55e\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Now this is the amazing thing. Somehow this Government is tax and spend, and yet the National Government raised petrol tax across the country, took it out of the regions, spent less money in the regions, and spent it on incredibly poor-value, short links of motorway that didn\u2019t do anything to reduce congestion\u2014of course it didn\u2019t, because all the data shows that urban highways don\u2019t help people get around. At the same time, they had the incredibly regressive move of cutting income tax for the highest income earners and putting up GST. Now, if the National Party actually cared about the lowest-income New Zealanders, they wouldn\u2019t have put up GST and cut income tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut let me just say\u2014because I know that they suddenly, in Opposition, are very concerned about the lowest-income New Zealanders. Well, if we look at how the regional fuel tax is going to affect, say, a decile 2 household in Auckland based on actual data of how much petrol they consume, it\u2019s going to be about $2.80 a week for decile 2. That is what the data says\u2014$145 per year\u2014and, as a percentage of the income, that\u2019s 0.5 percent. So a 0.5 percent increase in petrol tax. Of course, at the same time, we are looking after those low-income households by benefiting them with a Families Package to a much greater extent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298e61af19420404cbd6180fcf86921fa\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Then you take it off them with a fuel tax. That\u2019s disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b2b035f02534ab680214c97fbb4cbd3\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, for a decile 9 household\u2014so that would be one of the richer households that Mr Hudson\u2019s not concerned about at all\u2014they might be spending about 0.25 percent of their income. So that\u2019s the difference\u2014that\u2019s the regressive difference: 0.25 percent of their income versus 0.5 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo what I would say is that if we want to address the problem of access to opportunities and employment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220476f4b1714c42d797a3360033617795\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no. I think the member underestimates her costs on lower-income earners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a06865c18894a789c74a7f11fe24312\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your Master\u2019s in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ec47a4ca0114ecead82cd3bf128ddb2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Please don\u2019t bring the Speaker into the debate, even in your comments. Sorry for interrupting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210b3c1528aee4a0c878a8a9b2fa6c396\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: The best way to do that is to actually invest in both housing and transport infrastructure that enables people to access those opportunities, and that is clearly what this Government is doing. So with rapid transit across Auckland, safe walking and cycling across Auckland, and improvement to bus services, reducing fares, all of that is going to massively benefit everyone\u2014everyone\u2014in Auckland, but particularly the lowest-income households will benefit from this investment. South Auckland\u2014well, actually, the M\u0101ngere light rail is all about South Auckland and it\u2019s just one part of what we\u2019re doing there. Puhinui to the airport is giving people access to a major employment area. It will go right up into east Auckland. And then, of course, Te Atat\u016B\u2014well, that\u2019s where the north-western light rail\u2019s going, Mr Hudson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo this Government has a very practical, evidence-based vision and is going to invest in the infrastructure that I know New Zealanders have wanted for decades, and that party, the National Party, when they were in Government, refused to invest in the infrastructure that was desperately needed. But yet they did raise taxes\u2014oh yes, oh yes. They raised fuel taxes, they spent them on about seven projects, which were in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Hamilton, and Tauranga. There was a promise of some roads in Northland, but it was going to be about 30 years before they actually reached Northland, and, even then, they weren\u2019t going to actually make it easier for people to reduce the amount that they spent on transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s hard not to spend your entire speech responding to completely bizarre, other worlds that the Opposition seems to live in, where on the one hand they\u2019re going to cut tax and not raise tax, and on the other hand they\u2019re going to invest in roads, and somehow that\u2019s going to help people, but the roads weren\u2019t actually in the regions you guys were talking about. So look, I know that you in your little groupthink get very carried away, but let me just assure you that your constituents in Auckland are going to be extremely pleased with this Government for finally showing some leadership and enabling the local councils to raise revenue in a way that is fair and that enables the investment in the infrastructure that we need so that communities can be connected, so that kids can walk and cycle safely to school, so that everyone has access to frequent, affordable, reliable, modern public transport, and that those decisions can actually be made at a local level, not entirely dictated by central government, as the previous National Government did. Their approach to transport was very much about dictating to local government: raising taxes across the country, dictating to local government what the money would be spent on, and some eye-wateringly expensive and poor-value-for-money roading projects that did nothing to reduce the road toll, that did nothing to reduce congestion, and that did nothing to reduce pollution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo I am very proud and pleased to support this bill. I don\u2019t doubt that we can come up with even better ways and fairer ways of raising revenue for transport infrastructure in the future, but this is actually quite a good fix and is going to be very much supported by people in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc4017b075ac42f7865394f820cf5fd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc4017b075ac42f7865394f820cf5fd9\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to be talking on the Land Transport Management (Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill, and particularly just to listen to that previous speaker, Julie Anne Genter, who I heard was an expert in transport matters\u2014something I never heard before. She did make the point that we all have to go back to our Auckland constituencies\u2014and, of course, I am an Auckland MP\u2014and tell them about this issue and tell them why we\u2019re not supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I was just looking at the public opinion results. Back in May, we had the One News Colmar Brunton poll\u201458 percent opposed. Another one in May: final consultation on draft proposal for regional fuel tax, Auckland Council, 51 percent did not support; May, Auckland Council Facebook, 74 percent against; May, select committee, 89 percent of the 500 submissions opposed; April, 10-year budget plan, 48 percent opposed; and the Colmar Brunton poll\u2014another one, in April\u201452 percent opposed. So I\u2019m going to talk about my electorate soon, because I can assure you that many of my constituents are very unhappy with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think we have to ask ourselves: why is the Government pursuing this agenda? As we all know, the National Government worked closely with Auckland Council to develop a $28 billion plan over the next 30 years to deal with a scheduled, planned, well-considered transport plan for the Auckland area. Of course, that was called the Auckland Transport Alignment Project, or what people referred to as ATAP. Now, out of that $28 billion, all of it was funded except for $4 billion. When you talk about $4 billion, it sounds like a lot over 10 years, but, in fact, every time you talk about a brand new motorway, it\u2019s basically a billion-odd dollars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo, in context, Mill Road, which the National Government committed to just before the election, is a billion-dollar project if it was to be done. So, actually, the essence of the regional fuel tax is about making up that shortfall of the $4 billion over 10 years. And, of course, we have tried regional fuel taxes before and they have shown to be not a great mechanism. In fact, last time they were tried was back in 1990. Of course, where we were trying to go, as the former Government, was actually to look at congestion pricing, and I think there is a great deal of support for congestion pricing in Auckland, and I\u2019ve been in many seminars. As a Government we were trying to do it, and I know the deputy mayor and a number of councillors and people from Auckland Transport went to places like Singapore and looked at congestion pricing. Now, the issue with congestion pricing, of course, is that it\u2019s going to take a little while to implement. But we have heard from many of the submitters that this should be the key priority if you are to put in this type of funding. The emphasis and the incentive to put in congestion pricing should be of paramount concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe third option that the Government may have considered was charging at Marsden Point, and one of the submitters\u2014Mr Ken Shirley made a very good submission, the very first one we heard in Auckland\u2014said if you\u2019re going to charge a fuel tax make it easy, do it at Marsden Point. Really easy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOr the fourth option was you could\u2019ve put pressure on Auckland Council. As we all know, Auckland Council costs have gone up dramatically over the years since it got formed, and, of course, this regional fuel tax puts no further pressure on the council to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe fifth option was for the Government to take over the funding of key projects. Of course, that\u2019s where the central government was under National. Increasingly, we were looking at major roads in Auckland where we would take them over as the Government, which gave us the advantage of being able to consent them in a short time period of up to six months or nine months, depending on their priority, and actually get them built\u2014and actually get them built\u2014rather than talk about getting the council to work through their own processes. That, in my view, was the most important option that should\u2019ve been considered in terms of looking at this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut what did we end up with? We ended up with this fuel tax proposal, which is collected at the distribution level, which means if fuel is imported at Tauranga, as an example, it is a distribution company that then accounts for it. That fuel may end up in a petrol station or it may end up in a farmer\u2019s tank. Consequently, it is quite complicated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second thing is we\u2019ve now ended up with two fuel taxes, which I think the Government hasn\u2019t really been that clear about. We\u2019ve got the 11.5c that this Auckland fuel tax will generate, on top of the new tax of 12.5c\u2014on the fuel tax increase that has been implemented by this new Government\u2014making a total of 25.3c per litre. Every time you go to the pump in Auckland, you will be paying on average, depending on the size of your car, about $15 extra per tank load. I put it to you that this is quite a significant cost\u2014$15 every time you fill up the tank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe third thing we\u2019ve ended up with is a bill that promotes a 10-year window with a right to the council to actually extend it beyond that. So if you are saying \u201CLet\u2019s have the incentive to put in place a much fairer system around congestion pricing.\u201D, you wouldn\u2019t put a 10-year time frame, and a number of the submitters suggested that we should put in a much shorter time frame. But, of course, that was overruled, and we actually made it even more permissive in the sense that Auckland Council, prior to the end of the 10-year period, do a review and it can be extended. Of course, in the Act, which wasn\u2019t\u2014what was partly talked about in the election, but has now been incorporated in the bill, is it expands this legislation to all other regions. So, of course, we had Hamilton City Council turn up in Auckland and they were saying, \u201CYes, we want to do it too.\u201D When we asked them how much that would raise they said, \u201C$15 million a year.\u201D\u2014$15 million a year. Then we had a whole raft of other councils talking to us about raising money. Of course this is going to proliferate around New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo we ended up receiving 520 submissions, 20 of which we heard. To be honest, I have been a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee now for five years and I found it quite embarrassing to listen to the submitters coming in thrashing the committee about this bill. Of particular concern to my electorate in Hunua\u2014south of Auckland, a farming and large horticulture industry\u2014was we had one of the submitters, Horticulture New Zealand, come and talk about the implications this will mean for the many, many horticulturalists who drive their tractors, trucks, loaders, and fork hoists in their factories. A large number of equipment all running on diesel power will now be caught under these arrangements. We talked about a dispensation, but, of course, that was overruled. I think it adds an incredible amount of complication to an industry that is incredibly productive and helpful to the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second thing we heard about, and we\u2019re already seeing the impacts of, is price spreading. This occurred in 1990, when a fuel tax was in place. We are now seeing that\u2014and we talked about the boundary of Auckland stops at, basically, the Bombay Hills and cuts down through my electorate on the other side at P\u014Dkeno. We had a number of the fuel companies turning up talking about the issue of price spreading, and, of course, we now have seen that in evidence happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut the worst thing about this bill, in my mind, is the regressive nature of this bill and how it will hurt the poorer members of New Zealand. I know that the Labour Government like to say \u201CWell, our tax proposals are going to deal with them.\u201D, but, unfortunately, their tax proposals that they ripped off average New Zealanders are being directed to those families with children. What does it mean for young adults who are going to university? What does it mean for those couples that don\u2019t yet have children but are busy buying for their house? What does it mean for the superannuitants who are out there driving around, going to their bowling club\u2014all that sort of stuff? All those categories are not going to have any benefit by the tax reforms that this Labour Government has put through. What it\u2019s going to mean is that these guys will be paying $15 every time they fill up their car. I think that is the worst aspect of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo, in my area, I just want to deal with this issue around Mill Road. The Minister of Transport keeps saying that he\u2019s going to deliver Mill Road. Well, let me be clear, I\u2019ve been, since this announcement has been made, trying to educate my constituency because they\u2019ve been, in my view, misled to the extent that they believe that they are getting the entire Mill Road, $1 billion project that the Hon Judith Collins and I were successful in getting the National Government to commit to. They\u2019re not. They\u2019re only going to get the first stage: Redoubt Road\u2014Redoubt Road, which will stop at Alfriston School. It will be a road to nowhere\u2014a road to nowhere. It does nothing for my constituency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00227287edc5467f49f5b34c12314ca8e5b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227287edc5467f49f5b34c12314ca8e5b9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022220cab375c3a440fbad0b408ac2e955b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022220cab375c3a440fbad0b408ac2e955b\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, e Te Mana Whakaw\u0101. Noisy, directionless, polluting, stop-start\u2014that was Mr Bayly\u2019s contribution. And here we have the member for Hunua, as you would expect, listening to Mr Shirley, lobbying for the Road Transport Forum, who would have every other citizen in New Zealand pay for the woes that that Government left us with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOne of the many things that is good about this excellent piece of legislation is that it has an Auckland solution to an Auckland problem\u2014as it should. The deficit in the infrastructure there is enormous. We are, as Minister Genter pointed out, taking an innovative approach, not one based on cars. There\u2019s $28-billion-worth of works to be done to solve this problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis regional tax framework will allow the raising of around $4 billion. That\u2019s not to say it will raise $4 billion, but leveraged off this tax will come $4 billion\u2014a modest contribution to that, and here, the tax itself, a little over $1 billion. So, look, it\u2019s not too much to ask to say to the people of Auckland \u201CCan you chip in?\u201D There\u2019s still a lot of central government money going to this and a lot of ratepayer money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut in terms of a regional fuel tax, it\u2019s minor, it\u2019s minuscule\u2014as we\u2019ve heard before, it\u2019s around $5 a week. But, let\u2019s be clear, for a lot of people $5 a week is important; it\u2019s not trivial. Five dollars a week counts. I\u2019ll tell you what else counts: $75 a week for Working for Families counts; $31 a week in the winter energy payment counts; $20 cheaper doctors\u2019 fees, that counts; $30 a week rise in the minimum wage, that counts\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022695355c99fee4451b66db17d612b3768\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Sorry to interrupt the member but the time has come for me to leave the chair for the dinner break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227dc9081ba1d491fa453f87e6fed1001\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Deputy Speaker. Before dinner, I had pointed out that Auckland has a problem, left to it by the National Government, and Auckland has a solution. I\u2019ll tell you what that solution is: under this bill, under the transport plan proposed by Auckland City, it\u2019s a plan around public transport. It\u2019s public transport, public transport, and public transport\u2014not more roads, not encouraging people to get back in their cars and create more congestion, a failed plan that the Opposition would have us go back to. Well, no. We have rail, enhanced cycling routes, park-and-ride, walking, safety\u2014this is a Government that will look after people, not like the Opposition, who would simply build motorways to nowhere and have safety issues falling over themselves\u2014a rail-bus interchange, integrating a public transport network. What we have here is an actual plan that looks forward, that doesn\u2019t look based on old ideas, old technologies, and a solution that doesn\u2019t work. You know, I\u2019ll tell you who a car-centric city hurts: a car-centric city hurts people who can\u2019t afford two cars. What this will do is turn Auckland into a city where people can have low-cost transport solutions. These are the very people this Government stands for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022675cbfcd546a453db194ac1d6798d2ee\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: There are no options in Waiuku.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7765f7572464fd99791037505fb5b49\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: There are no options, Mr Bayly, because your lot left Auckland in a debacle, an absolute mess, and it\u2019s time for a change\u2014and change is here. And you know what? Auckland is happy about that. Auckland is relieved that, at last, there\u2019s a plan. There\u2019s not some $11 billion hole in the transport network; there\u2019s a plan to fund it. The solution is not encouraging more cars on the road. But, look, Mr Bayly\u2019s there yapping away, as he is wont to do, and I\u2019m surprised about that because, in fact, in select committee he\u2019s much more intelligent, you know. He\u2019s not the imbecile he makes himself out as here; he has some quite good ideas. I\u2019m grateful not only to the great leadership of the chair, Michael Wood, but also to the National members for pointing out ways in which the bill could be improved, because it is absolutely right that we don\u2019t want to tax people who are using their fuel off-road. Regional fuel tax\u2014it\u2019s a complicated tax. It has regional boundaries; it\u2019s about taxing fuel within that region for road use, because this is about funding the deficit in roads, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002251eda584c9c542f89e3d75c808f5ac57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251eda584c9c542f89e3d75c808f5ac57\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be able to take a call on the Land Transport Management (Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill. The speaker who\u2019s just sat down, Duncan Webb, is another example of someone in Christchurch trying to tell Aucklanders what\u2019s best for them, and this is what this Government is doing: telling Auckland what they want. They have come to the House this afternoon, and we\u2019ve all heard all the rhetoric. We\u2019ve heard the rhetoric about how this is an investment in Auckland, a down payment by Aucklanders. They\u2019ve said, \u201CHelp is on the way.\u201D Well, this is a tax, and this Government is taxing, taxing, and taxing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI heard the member for Mt Roskill say this is the moment he has been most proud of in this Parliament. The moment he\u2019s been most proud of is to tax people in his electorate and across Auckland. Well, this tax, as we know, is regressive in its nature, and it is going to hurt the people who will get the least benefit from it. Those lower family income households are the stakeholders who are most likely to hurt the most from this tax. They\u2019re the ones with the less fuel-efficient cars, they\u2019re the ones who have to travel further in their cars, and they\u2019re the ones who vote for that crowd over on the other side of the House and now are going to get punished by them on one hand. They talk about what they\u2019re giving them, but they give with one hand and take with the other, and they have no plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI would just like to quote the words of Sir John Walker, who was speaking around the governing body when he voted against\u2014he represents the communities of Manurewa and Papakura. He said we give people a wage increase and we then take it away with another hand. Well, that\u2019s what the people on the other side of this House are doing: giving with one hand and taking with another, with a fuel tax, and I find that to be reprehensible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe real reason for this tax is to enable the funding of some tram up through the Prime Minister\u2019s electorate, a tram which has a benefit-cost ratio of something which is uneconomical and which is displacing the funding from projects which we had funded on this side of the House\u2014funding for projects like the East-West Link and Mill Road, funding for projects like the Eastern Busway\u2014Auckland Manukau Eastern Transport Initiative. And now they\u2019re going to fund them with a fuel tax. Well, those projects were funded under the regional land transport plan. They were funded under the Auckland Transport Alignment Project last year, which we, the National Government, put in place, and now they\u2019re replacing that money with a regional fuel tax, going back to the community and saying, \u201CWell, we\u2019ll give you your projects back, but you have to pay again so that we can build a tram up through the Prime Minister\u2019s electorate, all the way to the airport.\u201D Well, that tram will take 60 minutes to get from the airport all the way to the city centre, and it will be easier to get an Uber\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e89250f49a47afbb31bc9b90f922ca\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: What? How long?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290e4aaca3852422fa2f106fedd496f57\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Sixty minutes. It\u2019d be easier to get an Uber\u2014easier to get an Uber, Mr Bailey. Just get an Uber into town. And we\u2019ve got something called the Waterview Tunnel, which we are proud to have delivered when we were in Government and which has unlocked Auckland\u2019s transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe point I\u2019d like to finish on is the lack of consultation. I\u2019d like to finish on the point that this Government has truncated the submission process. Right from the start, they haven\u2019t wanted to listen. I heard the Minister Julie Anne Genter\u2014she was saying that we wanted to give local communities the ability to have their say on the projects which they wanted to invest in. Well, they have not listened, every single step along the way. The first thing they did was truncate the select committee process. They gave submitters who were going to be impacted by this tax less time to be able to make submissions. Well, that was truncating the process and cutting out the people who are going to be impacted more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESecondly, the people who have submitted through the Auckland Council process and through the submission process have said no, no, and no. They said no when they asked the people across Auckland\u201451 percent. And of the people in my electorate, in Howick, the electorate of Pakuranga and the Howick Local Board area, 62 percent did not support it\u201462 percent of the people in my part of Auckland did not support this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI have just been up and I\u2019ve just found a sign which was used by the Rt Hon Winston Peters a little while ago. He said \u201CNO\u201D then, and they should say no now. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4b5b8187dcb499abf7e460ae11e0c47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4b5b8187dcb499abf7e460ae11e0c47\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to contribute tonight. As somebody who lives in Hamilton, a list MP based in Hamilton, we love Aucklanders. You know, they drink their lattes, they\u2019ve got their boats, they go out on the shore, they\u2019ve got their terrible rugby team\u2014you know, we get that. We love Aucklanders, but we don\u2019t love them that much that we want to pay for all their infrastructure challenges. Why should us Hamiltonians have to pay for Auckland to fix some of their transport issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de5420afe02d42c2b076223a5b851562\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Good question! That\u2019s what we say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e867992eadc4d47aa5954cb6f500bef\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: Matt Doocey\u2014he\u2019s in the Waimakariri. Do your members want to pay for Auckland\u2019s transport issues\u2014sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker; not yours, but do the member\u2019s people want to pay for Auckland? Stuart Smith, the member from Kaik\u014Dura\u2014do members in Stuart\u2019s electorate want to pay for Aucklanders\u2019 issues? So here\u2019s the point. Why should people in Masterton have to pay for Auckland? We\u2019re talking about a system here of personal responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ENow, I had nothing else to do before, so I just had a quick look on the National Party website. The National Party website talks about two things: loyalty to our country\u2014OK, sure\u2014its democratic principles and our sovereign principles and the Sovereign as head of State. Well, that\u2019s debatable. But here\u2019s one of the key values I saw on the National Party website: personal responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ESo my point is, why shouldn\u2019t Aucklanders take personal responsibility for their transport challenges? They\u2019re the ones that got themselves into this mess. So what the Opposition are saying is that the rest of the country should bail them out. What I\u2019m saying is that the Aucklanders should take personal responsibility, and that they can pay for some of their challenges. Sure, we\u2019ll help out, because we\u2019re nice like that\u2014us Hamiltonians are nice like that\u2014but the point here is that we care about Aucklanders, but they need to look after some of their challenges. And that\u2019s what this bill does. This bill says that Aucklanders will pay for their infrastructure. Yes, we\u2019ll help out, but the Aucklanders will be paying for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ENow, as some people may know, I tend to like to sometimes put a little lyric into my speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289c77289d45149cf868451556feba5d3\u0022\u003EMatt King\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226afbece9c4a54bc583b07f19e33cd7c4\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: And tonight the lyric is\u2014just for Matt King\u2014Sterling Simms, and the lyric says, \u201CI\u2019m stuck in traffic, trying to get to you. I\u2019m stuck in traffic, trying to get to you.\u201D I\u2019ve been up to Auckland a few times recently and I\u2019ve been stuck in traffic. And where\u2019s the singer trying to get to? Family, work, maybe for leisure, anywhere, but the productivity aspect\u2014sitting in a car, on a motorway that\u2019s gridlocked\u2014is a big challenge. And members from this side of the House have made that quite clear, that there are huge challenges in Auckland around transport. This Government will address those issues, and this bill is the start of doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ESo we talk about Auckland being a world class city, and there are many aspects of Auckland that are absolutely world class, and it\u2019s a desirable place to live and we\u2019re proud of it as a country, we\u2019re proud of the city. But we\u2019ve got a long way to go in terms of transport. When we look at cities like Canberra, who are just in the process of building light rail; Adelaide; some of the countries over in Asia; many of the countries over in Europe\u2014some of these countries and these big cities that we look at\u2014we haven\u2019t kept up with population growth. The infrastructure hasn\u2019t kept up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m excited that we\u2019ve got a Government who will put their money where their mouth is. Because the previous Government talked about\u2014let\u2019s have a look at this. Back in 2005, the previous National Government said they\u2019d put money aside for Penlink. In 2005, they said, \u201CWe\u2019ll do Penlink\u2014yes, we will.\u201D It was an election promise. Did it happen? No. In 2017, they popped up again, \u201COh yeah, that\u2019s right, Penlink. Yep, we\u2019re going to do it.\u201D But they didn\u2019t budget any money for it. Whereas this Government, we are putting our money where our mouth is. So yes, we are saying that we will fix the transport issues, but we will pay for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EWe heard from the Rt Hon David Carter earlier tonight with his contribution. And as an esteemed gentleman\u2014a very intelligent gentleman\u2014but I wonder what is his plan? He gave us a speech for 10 minutes which was full of excitement and rhetoric, but there was no plan. And that\u2019s the point; this Government does have a plan. And I do wonder if the Rt Hon David Carter\u2014maybe he might be looking to jump off a sinking ship, but that\u2019s up to him. He mentioned the Northcote by-election. I was up at the Northcote by-election on the weekend, and when I was talking to people up there, the people up there were telling me, \u201CWe need a plan. We need a plan. We\u2019ve heard for years that they\u2019re going to fix these gridlocked streets, but we need a plan.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f620d91ffba440cbad512c95f505e52a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: And who did they vote for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ef8b1fb92274a538204d72756b54f49\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: In the Northcote by-election the majority was cut from 6,000 to 1,000. I would see that as a failure. If I had 6,000 and it dropped to 1,000, I\u2019d be very disappointed with that result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to speak for a moment about the Eastern Busway. So the Eastern Busway is one of the projects that this regional fuel tax will fund. The Eastern Busway will not happen without this policy\u2014it will not happen. And the member for Botany who shares two-thirds of my name, he is against this policy, but when the Eastern Busway is built and Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern cuts the ribbon, the member for Botany will become very quiet because he knows that this was a good idea. And the reason this is a good idea is because Auckland is paying for Auckland\u2019s infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ESo just to summarise, we have huge issues in Auckland. It\u2019s at a standstill. We understand the frustration of its ratepayers who are spending hours of their day stuck in traffic. There\u2019s a huge loss of productivity when you\u2019re sitting behind the wheel stuck in traffic. Maybe in a few years we might have driverless cars and people will be able to do some work on there, but at the moment, the reality is that productivity is being lost. And Aucklanders want action. They\u2019ve been talking about this for years. They want action and they want it quickly. Congestion is a handbrake on the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ESo what\u2019s the solution? This bill is the solution. This bill is about taking personal responsibility\u2014which is something that I know the member\u2019s opposite believe very strongly in. It\u2019s about Aucklanders taking personal responsibility for their transport challenges, and for them paying for it. And people in Hamilton, people in Masterton, and people down in Southland\u2014we\u2019re going to chip in a little bit, OK? We\u2019re going to chip in as well, but the Aucklanders should pay for their challenges. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak on this and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022 data-id=\u0022faf1bda125254bd99034e56372ff4949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faf1bda125254bd99034e56372ff4949\u0022\u003EDENISE LEE (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to speak in the second reading. What can we say about the Government\u2019s idea around a regional fuel tax, in cahoots with Auckland Council? First of all, the Government introduced this legislation before Auckland was consulted on it\u2014strike one. Strike two: they shortened the committee process and designed the legislation to suit council\u2019s proposal. This Government has moved heaven and earth to make Auckland pay more at the pump, and I know that it\u2019s going to come back to haunt this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227452cfc98cad45fb95708116d3bd3951\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: And we\u2019ll pay, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210aced89c87944d3b8362d64aa60c966\u0022\u003EDENISE LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we all pay\u2014that\u2019s right. Thank you, Mr Stuart Smith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EPolling and consultation shows that Aucklanders do not want this tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca2f3eb726c44a79afa5bbe803f92017\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271332dfd2f2c40eeaf27467c855914e8\u0022\u003EDENISE LEE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s quite simple, it\u2019s quite plain, and it\u2019s quite clear. There have been at least six polls\u2014thank you, Mr Jackson\u2014and only one poll shows that there has been any result other than opposition to this fuel tax. That one poll was at the very beginning, from Auckland Council, and that one poll cost $200,000. It was designed and crafted by Auckland Council\u2014a smaller sample\u2014and before we knew that the Government was going to add on a national excise tax. A $200,000 poll by Auckland Council, and that\u2019s the only poll that the Government can clutch on to, to prove that there is support when there isn\u2019t support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EBack in May, at the select committee process here in Parliament, 89 percent of the 500 submissions were opposed. Also in May, in the draft proposal for the regional fuel tax\u2014the consultation that Auckland Council undertook\u201451 percent did not support and only 42 percent did. Back in May, again, in the One News Colmar Brunton poll\u2014there we go, Colmar Brunton, again, but this time a much bigger sample\u201458 percent were opposed. Here are the rock-solid results, and still the Government arrogantly pushes on with a tax that undermines the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EYou see, the point of this debate is to make clear, I think, from the Government that this result\u2019s inevitable. Well, it shouldn\u2019t be inevitable\u2014it shouldn\u2019t be inevitable\u2014that Aucklanders will end up paying more at the pump. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003ENow other cities and regions are lining up for this, and it\u2019s really interesting to hear from a member who lives in Hamilton, because you too will be paying at the pump. Just wait, your council wants it, so do all the other councils in New Zealand, and Local Government New Zealand has confirmed this. It\u2019s a matter of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EWe heard from Minister Genter earlier in the evening, when she said that the Government is listening to the people. Need I repeat those poll results? The Government is not listening to the people. The polls are showing what the people think, and how inconvenient that time after time, the more this debate has gone on and the more time has gone on, the more the poll results are getting clearer. It\u2019s not going their way; it\u2019s going by way of people speaking and trying to exercise their mandate on what they do and what they don\u2019t want to do with their wallets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EThe member Duncan Webb said earlier that this was an Auckland solution to an Auckland problem. Well, that\u2019s not going to be the case if Mr Jamie Strange or your councils will want this solution for all of their problems. Again, that\u2019ll be coming. Local Government New Zealand have confirmed that this is something that they want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003ENow if we think that this bill\u2019s about investing in transport projects, well, we were able to do that in our last Government\u2014in the National Government. This bill is actually about Auckland looking to pass the burden of transport projects and funding to Aucklanders and their wallets. Is it right that soon the country will end up having to take on the same burden as well? I don\u2019t think so. If councils were able to responsibly prioritise their spending, would this tax be needed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EOf course, I\u2019m going to head on to Auckland Council very soon, having been an Auckland councillor myself for four years. There should be a higher bar in place for councils to justify the imposition of a new tax on ratepayers\u2014simple as that. Councils should be required to demonstrate clearly that they\u2019ve exhausted all avenues for funding before they get to this particular tool in the tool kit. Where are the clear benefit-cost ratio business cases for the projects that they\u2019re proposing? How can they demonstrate where the revenue will go\u2014to which projects\u2014before they authorise and impose this sort of new regional fuel tax? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003ESpeaking of new revenue, it wasn\u2019t that long ago when I was on the council and the idea, the concept, of an interim transport levy came up. \u201CInterim\u201D ended up being three years. This has a theme and a feel to me like the interim transport levy, which I did not support when I was in council. Council went for Aucklanders\u2019 wallets then, and they\u2019re doing it again now, but this time you\u2019ve got a Government that is supporting them to do it. That\u2019s the difference right now. When it was the interim transport levy and I was around the council benches, that was an internal discussion and very much an eleventh-hour solution that I didn\u2019t support. This time, you\u2019ve got council and Crown in cahoots, working on this together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EThere are unintended consequences for business\u2014and I\u2019m going to touch on that soon\u2014but let me talk about the unintended consequences for council. Do the Government know what they\u2019re about to set off in terms of trust ratings in Auckland Council? Do you even know or listen to what it\u2019s like to be an Auckland councillor and to experience the level of low-trust environment that there is? They\u2019ve quantified it in their own reports, and what the Government is doing is going to set it off one more time, in a new way and on a new angle. The Government is going to\u2014well, perhaps it\u2019s not unintended, I don\u2019t know. But the Government is about to send Auckland Council and Aucklanders into another spiral of a low-trust vortex. It is simple and it is clear. I\u2019ve been there before, and this is just going to do it again. Wait until 1 July. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EYou see, Councillor Mike Lee said in the debate, \u201CThe problem here\u201D\u2014and I\u2019m quoting\u2014\u201Cis the lack of trust in the way Auckland Council spends its money, to be frank.\u201D Other speakers said the same thing. The Government is contributing to the problem. Trust is low, they\u2019re doing a hand-holding initiative with the Crown, and the consequences will be dire for our biggest, most prosperous, and bustling city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003ENow, I just want to talk a little bit on some of those unintended consequences for business. As we know, the cost of shipping\u2014that\u2019ll just simply be passed on to consumers through higher prices. Shipping costs, food costs, clothing, household goods\u2014those are the unintended consequences of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EWe also know about family impact. How many times does the Government have to hear from economists, from the New Zealand Initiative, and from speakers from their own ministries around the impact on low-income families and on those who can least afford to pay more dollars every time they fill up their petrol tank? It was actually another councillor, Fa\u2019anana Efeso Collins from Manukau, who said in his speech, and I think he was very eloquent, that he could not in good conscience\u2014this is a Labour councillor\u2014vote for the tax that would hit the poorest families the most. \u201CThe tax is taking food off the table.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s what he said. How does the Government answer that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EI want to finish in my last seconds by strongly objecting to the argument from the other side that you either do the fuel tax or you get congestion, that you either have a regional fuel tax or you do nothing, or that you have less revenue, and if we get less revenue, we\u2019ll have to cancel all the projects. That\u2019s rubbish. It\u2019s a funding question. The projects are going to happen. In fact, they were all outlined in the Auckland Transport Alignment Project when we were there. It\u2019s about the funding\u2014about how you get the funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003ENow I know\u2014and I\u2019m going to finish in just a very short amount of time. Here\u2019s some funding options for you from a former city councillor. Non-strategic assets\u2014Auckland Council, take a look at those. Procurement strategy, a whole-of-Government strategy\u2014which doesn\u2019t happen at Auckland Council\u2014take a look at that. Staffing levels\u2014take a look at that too. We oppose this and we will repeal it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00226d062ddb3e564101b6d909d38956ce18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d062ddb3e564101b6d909d38956ce18\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister of Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Well, that was a shocking speech\u2014shocking speech\u2014and Denise, go back to council now. Go back to council now. First of all, I want to congratulate Phil Twyford. What a brave and courageous Minister. Against all the silly and poor and pathetic attacks from the Opposition, we had him here standing brave today, courageous, talking about congestion\u2014something the Opposition would have no idea about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220494672549754f51b8cdfe19b4c45e06\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Indigestion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e56456c0e834b1f80fd8af5b9fc46e8\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well no, indigestion for some of them. The problem is if you don\u2019t live in Auckland, particularly in South Auckland, you wouldn\u2019t know. It is terrible, and so you have to do something. The Opposition did nothing over their nine years\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d41d3779f1c14f94bee70de08e81cccf\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e4c0404b0de4086b7e575e36554a5b6\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing. All they did\u2014of course, not yourself, Madam Deputy Speaker, but your mates\u2014was invest in their rich friends; tax cuts for their mates. They forgot about the infrastructure, forgot about the basics, forgot about Middlemore Hospital, forgot about the roads, the streets\u2014it was shocking, shocking what you did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EAnd here, we are always thinking about the poor people, the working-class people. I want to be a little bit humble today because I believe myself and my friend Anahila over here have represented more poor people than the whole National caucus combined. I sincerely believe that and I say that very humbly. The National caucus has no idea about poor people\u2019s needs. And here\u2019s the crunch: not one\u2014not one\u2014poor person has said anything to me about the tax. Not one word, not one line, and the same with Anahila. We live in South Auckland; we don\u2019t live in east Auckland. We don\u2019t live where a lot of the National Party live. We live in South Auckland, and not one poor person has said anything about what the National Party\u2019s talking about tonight, basically, because they don\u2019t care. All of a sudden, the National Party cares. Why do you care? Why does the National Party care so much now for poor people? Poor people don\u2019t give a stuff about this\u2014not one person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThe only time I\u2019ve been attacked\u2014and I need to say this\u2014was in Northcote. In Northcote, I was attacked by a National Party supporter of Dan Bidois. It was clear as a bell. I thought there was going to be violence towards me over the tax. This is in Northcote where Shanan was\u2014the fantastic Labour candidate who cut back that huge Northcote majority and made the National Party look stupid on Saturday night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI have been to gang patches; I have been to Mongrel Mob patches, Black Power patches, done all the door-knocking, but over there in Northcote, knocking on a National Party supporter\u2019s door, I was threatened. Of course, I backtracked because Labour Party people are peaceful people. We\u2019re not going to engage in aggression or violence with National Party rabid, maniacal supporters. No, we\u2019re not going to do that. I backtracked and I said, \u201CYou vote for Dan Bidois. You vote for Dan Bidois.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI was attacked, but in South Auckland they all support this levy. They all support it. You know why? They want to get into the houses where all the people were kicked out by your Minister Paula Bennett, Judith Collins, and all of you, because you all thought that they were smoking meth. Do you remember that time? Then you invested $100 million in all your National Party mates so that they could all have jobs. We recall that time well, don\u2019t we? Remember that time\u2014$100 million being invested into National Party supporters and friends, while you kicked the poor and working class out. You kicked the poor and working class out, and made up stories, and you had Paula Bennett in cahoots with the Housing New Zealand Corporation. That\u2019s what the National Party did. That\u2019s how much the National Party cares about poor people. We all know this, thank you very much. That\u2019s how the National Party looks after poor people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo I want to say today that Twyford is leading the way\u2014and it\u2019s good to see you\u2019re all silent now, because that proves to me that guilt has overwhelmed you in terms of this kaupapa. But we are brave; we are courageous. There is $28 billion going into this\u2014more money than you could ever think of\u2014and into fixing up roads, and fixing up what poor people want done, because poor people can\u2019t operate on rotten, crummy roads that were laid out by the National Government. Kia ora t\u0101tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223e719ab7830c465c87085c6fbc28b9bb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Finance and Expenditure Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000627\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e8c162c9e954633a707ec7059c012f2\u0022\u003ETaxation (Neutralising Base Erosion and Profit Shifting) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223eb6d1e8816f436abdd7bcf520a3fbdb\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a5107e11f4c4df080b70e01ca239f53\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Income Tax Act 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc73e69415004429bfaa8d551315b63d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc73e69415004429bfaa8d551315b63d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, and thank you for the opportunity to say a few words on this Taxation (Neutralising Base Erosion and Profit Shifting) Bill. I think this is the stage where we try and delve into the nitty-gritty of the legislation. I think, just for the benefit of the viewers around the countryside trying to get their heads around what we\u2019re trying to achieve with this legislation, it is trying to navigate that fine line between ensuring that the tax laws in place are fit for purpose when it comes to overseas investors and multinational companies operating in New Zealand, so that they pay their fair share of tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhen you\u2019re operating across different boundaries and jurisdictions, then there are ways in which the companies and their subsidiaries in New Zealand and the relationship with the companies that own them overseas are structured can have big influences on the taxes that are paid. One of the simplest ways to reduce tax paid in New Zealand is to price related party debt, which is to say that if you load up the New Zealand business with a large amount of debt, then that business has the debt servicing costs in New Zealand that can be offset against their income. Depending how expensive that debt is and how high the interest rate is, it lowers the effectual taxable income in New Zealand for that subsidiary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s all sorts of rules that have been developed over the years to ensure that overseas companies don\u2019t charge excessive levels of interest and don\u2019t have excessive levels of debt in their New Zealand company in order to avoid paying tax in New Zealand and to shift the profit offshore, perhaps to another country where there is a lower tax rate. So that\u2019s what certain parts of this bill\u2014and we\u2019re dealing with Part 1 here at the moment, and I\u2019m looking specifically at sections GC 15 to GC 19 in clause 37, which deal with these cross-party related debt issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo the fine line that we\u2019ve got to navigate our way through is a desire for these rules to be effective in ensuring that excessive interest rates are not charged and excessive debt is not loaded into the New Zealand company, against wanting to ensure that by making those rules too tight we could have the consequence of actually increasing the overall effective tax rate that the overseas investor\u2014or would-be overseas investor or multinational company\u2014is actually paying. If the net outcome of it was that we had less foreign investment in New Zealand because we had, effectively, increased the effective tax rates, then that would not be a good outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo the primary question that I have for the Minister\u2014and I\u2019d be very keen to have his view on this some time over the course of the evening\u2014is to reassure us that he thinks we\u2019ve got that balance right as to having the rules around related party debt sufficiently tight as to ensure that a sufficient amount of tax is paid in New Zealand, but not too tight that they are artificially increasing the effective tax rate that would-be foreign investors in New Zealand are looking at paying, and making us a relatively unattractive place in which to invest. That, I think, is the critical thing that I\u2019d be very keen to hear from the Minister on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut as we drill into the details, one of the matters that was discussed at great length during the select committee process was when a New Zealand borrower with an identifiable parent failed one of the three tests that we are introducing\u2014and another one of my speeches will talk about doing away with one of those tests, because it was too high\u2014it would have its credit rating restricted to one notch below its worldwide group credit rating. Now, what we\u2019re getting at there is how you determine what is an appropriate\u2014[Bell rung] Madam Chair, I might just keep going, if that\u2019s all right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022286514214fce439990fa9172e9159d34\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Paul Goldsmith\u2014yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022d9fa738274b75939720c50e729b0f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: So what we\u2019re trying to determine in the course of this legislation is what an appropriate rate of interest is for a New Zealand subsidiary to be paying back to its global parent. If it\u2019s too high, that interest rate, then the New Zealand subsidiary won\u2019t be paying much tax because all their profits will be eaten up with interest payments. If it\u2019s too low, then the parent will feel like it\u2019s an unfair transaction, and so a lot of the discussion and argumentation through the course of the select committee stage was about how we get that right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI mean, for example, we had a submission from KPMG where they talked about the group credit rating approach not being a particularly fair one. Their concern, and the concern of a lot of people involved in this, was that the traditional global practice has been to have what\u2019s called arms\u2019-length interest rate payments. So it\u2019s what you\u2019d get on the global market for this particular business\u2014its size, its risk, its security\u2014and at a market rate then you can justify that. Now, we\u2019re shifting away from that to this idea that the New Zealand subsidiary should actually pay the highest credit rating for the worldwide group, and then take one notch off that. So if the New Zealand company, however big it was, was operating and if it was owned by a multinational company, the highest credit rating that multinational company had\u2014whether it was AA or A- or whatever it was\u2014you\u2019d take one notch off that and that would be the guide to the interest rate that would be appropriate for the purposes of this tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242e6c04225a1454f8432f9f0f613ac7b\u0022\u003ERt Hon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: So why one notch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242aa3b4525da46c187a353d01bc5387c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, see, that was what was suggested by officials, and the concern is that that was too tight. So our suggestion throughout the select committee process was to drop that to two notches, to make it a more reasonable approach. Many of the submitters were concerned that even that was too tight because the New Zealand subsidiary, you know, was obviously considerably smaller than the global entity. It may have a completely different risk profile. It may have a whole lot of particular circumstances that mean that it is a fundamentally riskier proposition, which would justify having a higher interest rate charged to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo that really is the second question that I have for the Minister, and I\u2019d be very keen to get his view on that. Is he absolutely confident that we have got it right in terms of dropping two notches from that highest group credit rating as a guide for the interest rates that we\u2019d apply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI think we should still be worrying, I suppose, as to why New Zealand isn\u2019t adopting what is pretty much the global practice around having an arm\u2019s-length interest rate rather than this concoction that we\u2019ve come up with here. So, you know, I\u2019d be very keen just to get a sense of how comfortable the Minister is, and, secondly, whether he thinks two notches below the global highest group credit rating is sufficiently broad and capacious so as not to achieve what is\u2014my main concern about all this is that what we don\u2019t want to do is reduce the attractiveness of New Zealand as a place for international investors to invest. And that\u2019s where the effective tax rate that they\u2019ll be paying is so important, because, if I was to sort of make a broader point in conclusion, it is that this is a country that throughout its history has relied on foreign investment. Ultimately, if we want jobs and growth and opportunities for the next generation of New Zealanders, that depends on investment, and if we are to rely purely and simply on our domestic savings, that\u2019s fine, but we will only grow relatively slowly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022 data-id=\u00224eb6e30d9a594e55b4a3f9b295646c34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224eb6e30d9a594e55b4a3f9b295646c34\u0022\u003ECLAYTON MITCHELL (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the call this evening. A great contribution there by the member \u201CMr Goldstein\u201D and I have to also say that the one thing that he forgot to say in his contribution was that he did support the bill, and for all the right reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a05e183132741a1915ded0dd2336a61\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: I think we use proper names\u2014proper names, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d9268351d7e49fa8c26c7dfb7f3017d\u0022\u003ECLAYTON MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014Mr Goldsmith. That was a Freudian slip\u2014my apologies. It wasn\u2019t deliberate. I want to just add to the fact that I don\u2019t think that there\u2019s a person in this House\u2014or even when we go around the country speaking about this base erosion and profit shifting legislation\u2014not in support of it, because it makes sense for us. For two reasons, this bill is the right bill, because, one, it actually increases revenue for New Zealand, and therefore takes the tax burden away from New Zealanders, and, two, and equally as importantly, it actually brings multinational organisations on to a level playing field for New Zealand organisations, \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D, to actually work on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EMr Goldsmith did actually get to a point of talking about how important it is to encourage foreign investment into New Zealand, and we certainly do not want to be discouraging that, but we also don\u2019t want New Zealand to be the gold rush trading post that it has become over many years of these multinational organisations coming here and being able to get out of their moral and legal obligation by using base erosion and profit shifting methods to not pay their fair share of tax. In fact, just recently, we saw that the Google giant had a loss and paid no tax last year, which we, of course, know is not true. How could that possibly be true? So building an economy from the bottom up starts with making sure that everybody pays their fair share of tax, and this legislation starts that process off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EI think, conservatively, the numbers are around $275 million of extra revenue that this should generate, but on the far end of that we\u2019ve actually seen and heard some people having estimates as high as $900 million to $1.2 billion of extra revenue, depending on how far this goes. My question to the Minister is: does he think this is going far enough, or is it a stepped approach to something that we should be looking at in the future for getting more out of these multinationals? This is a very lucrative country to operate in. Certainly, in enabling them to trade here, they should have their legal and moral obligation to ensure that they do pay their fair share of tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EWe understand the situation. It\u2019s quite a simple process for multinationals: borrow money from their head office in another foreign country, loaned at exorbitant rates to their New Zealand counterpart to justify and write off their profits against the exorbitant rates that they\u2019re doing. This legislation simply tightens that ability to loan at exorbitant rates from the mother ship to the subordinate company, which is a New Zealand - based company, to avoid their tax objectives, making sure they pay their fair share of that tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EThe other part is actually ensuring that the head office overseas doesn\u2019t charge an exorbitant rate for the administration of their burden\u2014on their obligations\u2014to ensure that the trading of that organisation down under in New Zealand isn\u2019t actually over the top. In Part 1 of this bill, that\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re looking at doing. In Part 1, the interest limitations rules around that clearly outline what those steps should be and what a reasonable and fair rate of interest should be for those mother ship lenders, and also it puts restrictions on the transfer pricing for those organisations. The bill, I think, as we\u2019ve heard it go through the House, is supported by all members of the House. It is great to see that sort of collegial approach to this sort of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EPart 2 gives the powers to the Inland Revenue Department\u2014administrative powers to investigate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284935030f7664da8948a56cca0e4896a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re actually on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db5392277b0742bc8b01206835a6f54a\u0022\u003ECLAYTON MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I thought we were doing it as a whole?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289b3210d2a69493487e7e1684fa95e02\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235632f2b52974834930a9dce13833c8c\u0022\u003ECLAYTON MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: My mistake. I was jumping ahead of myself. Oh, you guys didn\u2019t want to do that\u2014didn\u2019t want to go there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EWe certainly do support this. Our usual speaker on this bill is away and unable to attend to speak today. But it gives me great pleasure to support this through the committee process, and we certainly look forward to hearing the contributions from our coalition partner\u2019s side as we progress through the evening. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002222e4f2e5a846499f9b0c7ae8dd90a390\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222e4f2e5a846499f9b0c7ae8dd90a390\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. There are a couple of questions that have been brought up that I\u2019ll address straight away. The Hon Paul Goldsmith asked if we had the balance right. I think we do have the balance about right, keeping in mind that the genesis of this bill actually came from OECD rules. I will commend the officials here. We\u2019re very lucky. We box way above our weight when it comes to this complex sort of legislation. Carmel Peters is often at the OECD. She\u2019s acknowledged as one of the world\u2019s experts in this area, and as a consequence\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ef1c87d407d42f495299e15cf9136b6\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re such a name-dropper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022290098426c784851b5f5fa34641b1531\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, and proudly so. We played quite a major role in developing the set of OECD rules that would prevent large, multinational organisations from literally not paying their fair share. So when we\u2019re talking about base erosion and profit shifting, what this actually is is companies who earn money in one jurisdiction aggressively tax planning\u2014I\u2019m not saying \u201Cevasion\u201D but \u201Caggressive tax planning\u201D\u2014so they don\u2019t end up paying tax in one jurisdiction. They transfer their payments to, perhaps, a tax haven and end up paying tax at a very low rate. Or, worse, what can happen is they end up paying no tax because of the complex arrangements that these very smart lawyers have determined. So this isn\u2019t just New Zealand saying we need to do something about this; this is the whole of the OECD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ESo what we have got here is a piece of legislation\u2014and I\u2019ll give credit where credit\u2019s due; it was initially brought in by Judith Collins when she was a Minister of Revenue\u2014supported across the House. I understand the Finance and Expenditure Committee worked very closely together to come up with solutions when there were a couple of issues, but this is a piece of legislation that we have to bring in under our obligations with the OECD that puts in a number of measures to ensure that multinationals do pay their fair share. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAnswering the honourable Clayton Cosgrove\u2019s question\u2014\u201CIs this all we\u2019re going to do? Are we just going to pass this bill and then nothing more?\u201D\u2014no; no. I would say this is the first step, and there are already a number of measures that we are looking at, Mr Mitchell, that will take this to the next step. The thing we do know is that as smart as we are and as engaged and as proficient as the members on the select committee will be, as well as our drafters and our officials, multinational companies have lawyers that are just as smart. Well, they\u2019re not quite as smart as Carmel, but they\u2019re up there. So whenever you put a bit of legislation in, there are always people that are looking at doing things slightly differently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EMr Mitchell talked about transfer pricing. We know this is a big problem\u2014we really do\u2014and when companies like Apple and Google don\u2019t pay any tax in New Zealand, we know there is something going on here that\u2019s not quite right. I mean, I don\u2019t know how many iPhones are sold in New Zealand, or how many iPads or Apple Watches are sold in New Zealand, but it is a substantial number. These companies are making a profit in New Zealand, but the way that they have managed to structure their affairs means they avoid paying their fair share, and the people that miss out are actually us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWe don\u2019t know how much money this will bring in. IRD has estimated it\u2019s about $200 million. IRD tends to be quite conservative\u2014I hope they\u2019ve been too conservative here\u2014but it\u2019s around about $200 million. The reason I say it\u2019s about $200 million and perhaps not the $500 million that\u2019s been reported in the press is because IRD actually have a small compliance group that continually audit the largest companies in this country, so we know what the big companies are doing. But what we can\u2019t do is go after these large multinationals that are using the law\u2014I mean, I\u2019m not saying they\u2019re doing anything illegal, but they are very aggressive in their tax planning. Hence the reason for the legislation, hence the reason for the need to do this, and the only way this is going to work is if it is implemented across the OECD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThat is why we are just one small cog in a very big machine that is implementing this type of legislation that is going to ensure that multinationals pay their fair share and that we hold them to account. What we are seeing around the world is people like Mark Zuckerberg from Facebook and other large multinationals like Apple and Google actually saying, \u201CGame\u2019s up. We\u2019re prepared to pay our fair share now.\u201D And they are understanding that we don\u2019t want to rip them off\u2014just their fair share.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ESo to Mr Goldsmith, I would say that the measures we are putting in place we are not doing in isolation. I don\u2019t think these are going to be seen by large multinationals or big companies as \u201CNew Zealand is doing something that will prevent us or disincentivise us from investing in this country.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00225ce67ec47fb244e2bcbacad89a5d2966\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ce67ec47fb244e2bcbacad89a5d2966\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to be talking in this Taxation (Neutralising Base Erosion and Profit Shifting) Bill committee stage. I\u2019ve got to start off by saying that I want to acknowledge the Minister of Revenue, Stuart Nash, for standing up and giving us some elucidation of some of those points already raised in this important debate, because, as you\u2019d know, this is a very complicated bill\u2014one of the most complicated bills, apparently, to come before the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014and, of course, it will have significant taxation ramifications for New Zealand, for New Zealand companies, and particularly for those companies owned by foreign entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course we\u2019ve got a big trade-off. The trade-off is we do want foreign investment here in New Zealand, contrary to a point I heard earlier from Mr Clayton Mitchell, but we want to make sure that they pay their fair share of tax. I just want to start off by saying one of the key parts of this bill is around restricted transfer pricing rules, which I know the Minister\u2019s been following very carefully. Of course, what the transfer pricing rules are all about is making sure that when a foreign entity lends money to its New Zealand entity, whatever that might be\u2014it might be a branch, it might be a subsidiary, it might be an agency, or it may even be sort of an office; a sales office, in effect\u2014we have to work out the process for determining the interest rate that will be charged on any debt provided by the foreign parent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWe had a number of submissions\u2014in fact, we had a stack of them\u2014from a range of accounting firms, legal firms, chartered accountants, and even electricity firms saying that the proposed restricted transfer pricing rules mean that what we end up with is, basically, an arbitrary process for determining the interest rates on debt provided by foreign owners. Of course, the more you move away from the actual rate used or charged by the foreign parent to the New Zealand subsidiary or whatever, the more artificial, more academic it becomes. So what this bill is trying to do is to standardise that process and to make it one where it\u2019s to some extent consistent but also defensible and also fair to New Zealand taxpayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut a large number of those people said as soon as you start putting those arbitrary academic approaches on assessing the interest cost, you then start to enter the realm of creating maybe a higher tax rate in New Zealand, that the foreign entity can\u2019t claim back all the tax as a deduction in its own area\u2014so you get a mismatch of interest rates and interest costs, and some are deductible and some are not. Normally, they would offset each other as they work their way through the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI know there\u2019s a lot of discussion around this with the officials, but the officials\u2019 view was that one of the things about the rules was we should be looking at the foreign parent and assuming that there is an implicit parental support. What that means is that for any loan there is an obligation or an expectation that the foreign parent will always stand behind that New Zealand entity, and therefore, on that basis, the interest rate that is charged on any loan should reflect, basically, that fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, with a New Zealand subsidiary, the issue is sometimes that the activities that the New Zealand subsidiary undertakes are totally different from the foreign parent\u2019s activities. What this means is the assumption that you can take a certain debt and make it consistent doesn\u2019t actually take into account both of those aspects. So my first question to the Minister tonight, which I\u2019m hoping he might have an opportunity to address, is what happens if, in the documentation or the arrangement between the foreign parent and the New Zealand subsidiary, there is no documentation to underline, to underpin, and to evidence the issue of the implicit parental support or otherwise financial guarantee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, one of the other issues I really wanted to talk about tonight is that in the group credit rating approach, a number of submitters also made a submission that it shouldn\u2019t proceed in its current form. One of the most notable submitters, of course, was KPMG. I did work for them a long, long, long, long time ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff2bed640fc64dc7b5259c0c214b2ff1\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: But you\u2019re so young.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f24e2baaf714313b687e458a3ac4785\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdecc597f0934bfdb51b211fb6950538\u0022\u003ERt Hon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It was a secondary school project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caea2ccc62c14c53879ff17dfaadbb5d\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. One of the issues that they raised is that if the restricted transfer pricing rule proceeds, the group credit rating approach should not be used instead. They talked about new section GC 16(7), in clause 37, and whether, in fact, the approach proposed in that section or the restricted credit rating approach in new section GC 16(8) is the most appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EUsing the parent\u2019s ultimate credit rating to derive a starting point for the New Zealand one\u2014as my good colleague the Hon Paul Goldsmith very well discussed in his speech\u2014raises the issue: is this the right start point for assessing debt and credit ratings and, in a sense, the interest rate on that debt? Typically, New Zealand operations of foreign multinationals often have smaller ratings. So you can imagine, if you\u2019ve got a large, multinational parent, heavily diversified, operating in 100 countries, and you\u2019ve got a small New Zealand operation, which may only have three people doing sales functions, the attributes of that New Zealand subsidiary or operation are totally incompatible and inconsistent with the parent company, and therefore that\u2019s why KPMG were actually raising this as a particular issue. I think this is a really important point. And I know the Minister sort of traversed some of this earlier in his response, but I think it is a fundamental aspect we need to sort of look further on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other thing is we actually had submissions, and one of them was: is it too premature for New Zealand to be diving into this form of calculating interest rates? In fact, it was noted the OECD research is under way on this very issue. Of course, New Zealand\u2014as the Minister quite rightly pointed out\u2014has been at the forefront of the development of these base erosion and profit shifting policies that encompass all the OECD countries around the world. It\u2019s important that we play our part, but also what we don\u2019t want to be seen as is actually ahead of the game.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think the strength of the BEPS\u2014if I can call it that; base erosion and profit shifting\u2014system around the world is that there is a collegial grouping of countries that all start to apply the same policies with regard to foreign companies investing in domestic countries. I think if New Zealand steps outside the boundaries and is seen to be leading it\u2014and I think it\u2019s a very legitimate question that, particularly, the Corporate Taxpayers Group raised, which is whether, in fact, under action four of the OECD recommendation, we should be actually jumping ahead of the game.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe last bit I just want to turn my attention to in this segment is the Minister said it\u2019s very important that we act very consistently with those other international jurisdictions, and I would say to you that probably the most important jurisdiction that we have compatibility with, of course, is Australia\u2014Australia being our main trading partner. Again, I think it\u2019s very important that we note that PricewaterhouseCoopers, the accounting firm, made this very, very point. It said the Government had noted the importance that New Zealand transfer pricing rules are aligned with Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EHowever, we do have some differences already in this bill. For instance, if I can just highlight a couple of those, the first one is we have a maximum debt loading, if I could use that term\u2014the normal term is leverage. We allow businesses with up to a maximum of 40 percent debt loading to be deemed to be low-risk companies and therefore outside of the BEPS regime. In Australia, for instance, they allow a higher leverage ratio of 60 percent, so already we\u2019ve got a mismatch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other thing is in Australia they don\u2019t allow for credit ratings to be prescribed. So they have a more flexible approach to the way they do. I just ask the Minister to turn his mind to some of those issues\u2014particularly Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022abcef5603a244270bc6212f89be1a704\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abcef5603a244270bc6212f89be1a704\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak on this particularly challenging piece of legislation. If I could make some general comments first before I raise some direct questions with the Minister. First of all, I came into the select committee process later in the piece. I\u2019ve been on the Finance and Expenditure Committee many years ago, so I\u2019ve done a lot of tax legislation. This would be the toughest one that I\u2019ve ever been involved with, and, listening to my senior colleague the Hon Paul Goldsmith\u2014if it was confusing before his contribution, I think I was more confused by the time he\u2019d finished.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EBut, having said that, we then had the excellent contribution from whom the Minister referred to as \u201Cthe honourable Clayton Mitchell\u201D\u2014well, he actually referred to him as \u201Cthe Hon Clayton Cosgrove\u201D. No, Clayton Cosgrove has left the Parliament. I saw him in the street today. He\u2019s fantastically busy\u2014very grateful, in fact, that there\u2019s a Labour-led Government giving him many, many opportunities. And if Clayton Mitchell\u2019s not yet \u201Cthe honourable\u201D, then he\u2019s an endangered species within the New Zealand First caucus, because most of them are. But, of course, his opportunity could come within the next six weeks\u2014his opportunity could come within the next six weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ECan I take the opportunity in making my general comments to thank the quality of the submissions that we received. So we had the Chartered Accountants of Australia and New Zealand, we had Deloitte, we had Chapman Tripp, we had PricewaterhouseCoopers (PWC), and KPMG all giving some very valuable ideas and causing the select committee, and, I know, the officials themselves to reflect on the quality of those submissions, to the extent I think we\u2019ve got better legislation now before the committee with the amendments coming through from the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to also acknowledge the very useful contributions from businesses. Businesses, collectively, said, \u201CThere is an issue. We want to work with you. We\u2019re not here to dodge our tax or to make suggestions to make it easier to dodge tax. We recognise, as indeed the OECD work has demonstrated, that there is a responsibility on any company\u2014international or not\u2014upon being here in New Zealand and doing business, to make a fair contribution in their taxation.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to take this opportunity of thanking the officials, because this isn\u2019t easy work. They were at all stages very diligent to our requests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIf I can now move to the specific questions that I\u2019ve got, Minister, because it\u2019s our duty over the next couple of hours to test that the new Minister of Revenue really does understand and has his head around the complexity of this legislation. So the first one I\u2019m worried about comes from a submission from PWC arguing around the effective implementation of the legislation. So, as the Minister will know\u2014I certainly hope he knows\u2014it\u2019s 1 July 2018. But, of course, PWC point out to us that most of these companies who will be now affected by the legislation have a tax law that runs from 1 April to the end of March each year. Their suggestion, therefore, was wouldn\u2019t we be better to implement this legislation from 1 April 2019 rather than 1 July 2018. So I\u2019d like the Minister\u2014and I know he\u2019s busy there, beavering away thinking of an answer to that\u2014to just give it some thought, because we want it to be enacted at a date when it\u2019s, effectively, easy for companies to comply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second issue I want to touch on\u2014and the Minister will be aware of the commentary in the report\u2014is the grandparenting of advance pricing agreements (APAs). Now, as I understand\u2014and we\u2019ve made a number of changes that affect clauses 35(7), 36(6), 37(2), 42B(3), 44(3), 46(2), and 47(2). Advance pricing agreements, as I\u2019m sure the Minister knows, are where those agreements have been entered into so that a corporate can go to the IRD and get an understanding or an agreement around rules, transfer pricing, etc., so they know their commitment to taxation from the very start. The last time I was involved in the select committee, we had a similar issue around binding rulings, whereby any taxpayer could go to the IRD and get a binding ruling, which seemed to me to be pretty much the same thing. So I\u2019m interested in the Minister explaining in some detail, for the benefit of the committee, the difference between an APA\u2014an advance pricing arrangement\u2014and, of course, a binding ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second thing that I think\u2019s relevant here is how frequently have these APAs\u2014the advance pricing agreements\u2014been established? How many are there? The other one that concerns me is: has the IRD investigated the content of some of these advance pricing agreements to make sure they don\u2019t have rollover clauses that, in fact, could allow the arrangement to then persist long after the initiation of the Taxation (Neutralising Base Erosion and Profit Shifting) Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe very final point that I\u2019d be really grateful for the Minister to explain to the committee and expand on his earlier comments is around the expected revenue from the enactment of this legislation. He used the figure, when he stood to his feet earlier, around it being $200 million. Now is that $200 million a year or is it $200 million over the next four years, and how has that figure been arrived at? It seems to me it\u2019s relatively difficult, despite our acknowledged expertise within IRD and the work done by the OECD, to actually get a handle on the amount of revenue that will be received by Government once this legislation is enacted. It is a relatively challenging piece of work for IRD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo I won\u2019t take any further point because I think I\u2019ve raised there three very valuable points for the Minister to cogitate on. I\u2019m looking forward to his answers, which I think he\u2019s about to give to me now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002264a63754fdc54d1a9b251c6a01dde111\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264a63754fdc54d1a9b251c6a01dde111\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Some very important questions have been raised, and I feel as if I should stand and answer them because, you know, it\u2019s important that we all understand this. It\u2019s a bit of a shame that after being on the select committee, Mr Carter, you maybe haven\u2019t got the knowledge of the answers, but let me help you out. But, first of all, Mr Andrew Bayly. There\u2019s a reasonably\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ebbffc1db414518913f69e77a313152\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m over here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e20afecee2b42269983f160134bafd5\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014oh, Andrew Bayly\u2014famous case of those who were involved in this sort of business, and it\u2019s Chevron Australia and the Australian Tax Office. What happened there was Chevron\u2019s parent company borrowed money at 2 percent and it lent it to Chevron Australia\u2014its subsidiary\u2014at 9 percent. So this went to court, obviously, and the court found that, in fact, there was a level of transfer of pricing and this was not fair. Now Australia provides a little bit of a different test than ours\u2014theirs isn\u2019t as arbitrary as ours\u2014but what we do know is the transfer pricing of this scale is the classic way to avoid paying your fair share, so we do want to cut down on this. As you know, the officials\u2019 initial recommendation was one notch below the global interest rate, and after consultation and submissions and hearings, they moved it down to two notches because they thought that was fairer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ENow, like any piece of tax legislation, if it\u2019s not working at two notches\u2014if we find that, in fact, there is a fairer way to address this, or a more objective way to ensure that companies are allowed to borrow at whatever rate they can but, however, are not ripping off the system\u2014then I\u2019m sure that we will look to change this. You know, with any tax legislation, it\u2019s always quite fluid, but we think we\u2019ve got it right at this point in time. After consultation with the OECD and after submissions from the big end of town, we think we\u2019ve pretty much got it right, but let\u2019s wait and see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe former speaker, Mr Carter, actually raised some very interesting points. Income year\u2014now it was a good point. It does apply to income years after 1 July 2018, but a business with a 31 March balance date won\u2019t apply these rules until 1 April 2019. So we think that we actually have made it very easy to comply with, and that\u2019s what it\u2019s about. What we don\u2019t want to do is put in place undue compliance for business, but we also want to ensure\u2014obviously, what this bill\u2019s about is that they do pay their fair share of tax, and we want to make it easy for them to pay their fair share of tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe figure of $200 million per year\u2014it is very hard to model what we will end up getting. I mean, in terms of any tax it is very hard to model, and let me give you an example. Last year, when we put in the GST on online services, inland revenue (IR) believed they were going to pull in about $40 million a year. In the first year, it brought in $113 million a year. As mentioned, IR are inherently conservative in their estimations and they probably should be, and we don\u2019t mind that. So it may be $200 million. That is their best estimate, using a whole lot of different models\u2014well, modelling this legislation. It could be more. But, as mentioned, the reason we came up with this, and not the $500 million that you might\u2019ve seen in the media, is because IR undertakes a very high level of compliance already with large companies. In fact, companies over a certain figure\u2014and I think it might be $100 million in revenue\u2014have their own individual agent who looks after their organisation. So IR understands and knows what is going on at the big end of town already. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EMr Carter, the other point you brought up about binding rulings from the commissioner\u2014that isn\u2019t going to change at all. A company can, no matter what their size\u2014and we\u2019ve made it easier for small to medium sized companies, actually, to seek a binding ruling. But a large company can still seek a binding ruling from the commissioner if they present to the commissioner any sorts of questions they may have around their tax obligations. So that isn\u2019t going to change in any way, shape, or form. In fact, as the Minister of Revenue, I would encourage companies that are unclear about their tax obligations to go to the commissioner and seek a binding ruling so that at least they know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225cd1ed3b3704a998166ee803463e99c\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the difference? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022646cadc9db424ab6b50c765d4f9fc85e\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: OK, a binding ruling means it binds the IR. Now a large company doesn\u2019t have to follow that binding ruling, but if they don\u2019t follow that binding ruling, then they do so at their own peril. But it does bind the Commissioner of Inland Revenue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAlso, Mr Bayly, you did talk about the taxpayer and whether there was any documentation around, you know, the global group. Well, it is actually up to the taxpayer to prove that they are doing the right thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8c65e0994ab4acbad33bb8bba1508a7\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: No, but it\u2019s not the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022179898c091fb4997a71171e957589431\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is the point. It is the point. The onus is always on the taxpayer to prove that they are complying with the rules, and that won\u2019t change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229423f6e8d6aa4ab9815c802ae5044443\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: So if they don\u2019t have that in documentation, what happens to the parentals? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af4b9f1c643d42aba4ffe533d8fd8202\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if IR assume or if IR believe that there is a level of avoidance going on, then they will go to the New Zealand subsidiary and they will undertake an investigation. Within the bill, it outlines how an investigation could take place, who is liable, for example\u2014and there were some changes made at the select committee about this, and I understand that. But if IR believes there is a level of avoidance going on, then they will approach the taxpayer, and it will be up to the taxpayer to prove that, in fact, they are complying with the law, and that hasn\u2019t changed in any way, shape, or form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI think those are the main points that were brought up by Mr Bayly and Mr Carter. But one thing I will say around the compliance date is the implementation date was actually\u2014and I\u2019ve given credit to Judith Collins because she did bring this forward and it was passed by the previous Cabinet, and we back it as well of course. The implementation date was actually prepared by the previous Government, but we have no problem with that. Thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u002275d0991a2a2d4ad6bb87b3ed7d300d16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275d0991a2a2d4ad6bb87b3ed7d300d16\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am looking forward to taking a call this evening on Part 1 of this taxation bill working on the neutralising of base erosion and profit shifting piece of work, which, as other speakers have acknowledged and the Minister in the chair has acknowledged, has been a piece of work that has spanned two Governments. But, more importantly than that, actually, it\u2019s a piece of work that has international impetus. It is really New Zealand\u2019s response to the OECD piece of work looking at how New Zealand\u2019s rules need to be amended and adopted in concert with the rest of the world, so that we stop the actions of a number of multinationals who look to gain relative tax jurisdictions for tax advantage. What we see most commonly, of course, is using inter-party - related transactions offshore to move money, effectively, to a tax jurisdiction that\u2019s more efficient for them, to artificially play with where they would otherwise have a place of operation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe work of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on this piece of work has been very good, has been very constructive\u2014as you would expect from a bill like this that has cross-party support in its broad parameters. I came into the consideration of the bill part-way through, and so it\u2019s certainly been very interesting to hear the contributions from my colleagues Paul Goldsmith and Andrew Bayly and David Carter, and others who are still to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Minister for making genuine attempts to address the questions that are raised\u2014[Interruption]\u2014no, no, I mean that very genuinely. I wasn\u2019t trying to have a dig, Mr Nash. It is very helpful when we see a Minister in the chair who is clearly keeping track of the questions that are asked and is trying to address them, and I think Mr Nash will take some comfort in the fact that, similarly, on this side of the House, we want to see this legislation simply in as good a shape as it can be. It started as our legislation, it\u2019s now yours\u2014not yours, Mr Chairman, of course\u2014but there is a genuine interest in making sure we have it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe part of the bill that I wanted to focus on in this first call is around another aspect of the transfer pricing rules, and Mr Carter, obviously, has made some comments around the grandparenting arrangements that are part of that and also the operation of the advance pricing arrangements. The piece that I particularly wanted to talk about is the change that the select committee was quite interested in, and I personally had quite a lot of interest in, which was around the time bar for bringing actions under the transfer pricing mechanisms. For the hundreds of thousands of people who I\u2019m sure are listening away at home, what we\u2019re talking about here is exactly the situation I described earlier where related parties are using the ability to set the cost of arrangements between them in a way that, effectively, allows them to move profits offshore. So that might be\u2014obviously, it could be a debt instrument, which is the most obvious one, where interest rates are set. But, equally, it can be things like management fees between related parties, it can be royalties arrangements\u2014there can be any number of ways in which this is done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe IRD, of course, have a very genuine interest in making sure that there is adequate time for them to understand and drill into what are very complex arrangements between very highly lawyered up\u2014to use a technical term!\u2014firms who have access to a wide range of accountancy advice and legal advice to help them make these transactions look as legitimate as possible. We all acknowledge that there\u2019s quite a piece of work in that. No one is, by any stretch of the imagination, suggesting that that is an easy or a non-complex piece of work and that they are not dealing with some very, very able and adept and well-resourced combatants. So there\u2019s no question, I think, between us on the nature of the mischief to be solved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ESo where we start: transfer pricing arrangements have been in place in New Zealand, obviously, before this legislation. In this legislation, we\u2019re making some tweaks around the way they apply to when a number of foreign investors work together as a controlling bloc to control a New Zealand company\u2014all of which is very sensible, subject to the comments my colleagues have made. But, previously, the time bar for the IRD to bring and complete an investigation and issue a notice of a changed tax liability was four years\u2014four years from the end of the tax year in which the alleged behaviour occurred. Under this piece of legislation, the IRD wanted, of course, to extend that out to seven years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ENow, there was quite a wave of submission opposed to this change from the major taxpayer groups\u2014you know, there was Chapman Tripp, the Corporate Taxpayers Group, EY, Russell McVeagh, PricewaterhouseCoopers, KPMG, ASB, Powerco. There was quite a long list, and so it was an issue that really concerned taxpayers in New Zealand. I don\u2019t think any of them, certainly, disputed the fact that the IRD needed to look into these and have a complex and effective way of going about it, and, as I say, neither did the committee. But we really drilled quite hard with the officials, saying, \u201CLook, do you really need seven years? Is there not something in what the submitters said where they\u2019re right?\u201D\u2014that, actually, these are complex, detailed transactions. They\u2019re not one-off; they\u2019re year-on-year transactions and, actually, taxpayers do need the certainty of knowing what their tax position is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe position that the committee got to was a bit of hybrid. We took the officials at their word that four years wasn\u2019t going to be long enough for those taxpayers who are playing a bit of cat and mouse and not being as forthcoming as they could, and we certainly don\u2019t want people to be able to avoid IRD scrutiny through being non-compliant. In the same way, though, we also took from the submitters that, actually, to leave every taxpayer exposed for up to seven years where there could be a review is an extraordinary imposition. It doesn\u2019t provide the sort of certainty that taxpayers want, and it puts a huge amount of more cost and complexity into both the prosecution of the behaviour but also the defence of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ESo where the select committee got to was to say that the IRD should be able to extend to seven years only if they have commenced an investigation during the four years and have notified the taxpayer that it would be seven. You know, we can argue whether that was the right balance, but that\u2019s where the committee got, and I\u2019m comfortable with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EWhere I\u2019m concerned, though, Mr Nash, is that the way the bill has actually landed in front of the House\u2014and I\u2019ll refer you to where clause 36(4), inserting new section GC 13(6) in the Income Tax Act, provides the assessment\u2014it doesn\u2019t actually do what the select committee thought it was doing, and it certainly doesn\u2019t do what the select committee commentary says it is doing. The select committee commentary makes it quite clear that the select committee wanted the change to say that the time period could only be extended if an investigation had been commenced and the taxpayers were notified. The change in the bill in clause 36(4) simply requires the IRD to notify that they\u2019re extending the time. That\u2019s not what the select committee agreed at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe select committee did not sign up for a situation in which the IRD could potentially, under this legislation, serve as a matter of course on every taxpayer a notice that they\u2019re extending the time period and it would automatically become seven years. We went through this in quite some detail, and in a very collegial and bipartisan way, to try and get that right balance between fairness to the officials and fairness to the taxpayers. And where we landed\u2014you can check for yourself; the select committee commentary is very clear on this\u2014is that the IRD would be required to have commenced an investigation and to have advised the taxpayer of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222156587c0a7d4774a9ed7448d0fa754c\u0022\u003EHon Stuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s still the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290ca3032000942de8393dd9d4bc72baa\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: The legislation, the way it\u2019s written\u2014and I can read it out for the Minister, who\u2019s saying that\u2019s still the case. The legislation, as it\u2019s written, makes it very clear that the only thing required for the IRD to extend the time is if, at any time during four years, \u201Cthe Commissioner notifies the taxpayer that this subsection applies.\u201D That means, Mr Nash, that in every case, potentially, the IRD could issue a form letter to every taxpayer saying they were extending it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ENow that is not what the select committee said, so I really want to hear from the Minister in the chair. He\u2019s just indicated verbally that that\u2019s still the case. I can utterly assure you, on the reading of that legislation, it is not the case, and if the Minister is not able to point me to the provision in the bill that says the IRD may only extend it where an investigation has been commenced and is under way, then we\u2019re going to have to come up with a tabled amendment to make sure that the bill, as in front of this committee, reflects what the select committee instructed to be in the bill and what the select committee said in their report was the intention of the amendments. I can assure you right now that is not what was said, and it is very, very far from what the committee intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ELook, it might seem like a small point. But, actually, this is a change that is\u2014not only does it speak to whether the bill in front of us reflects the direction that the select committee gave it and the select committee report, but it\u2019s also a very important point in getting that balance right between the reach and power of the State and the right of taxpayers to have certainty and have some conclusion to their legitimate affairs, to know when they can put these issues to bed, and, when they do come up, to have the resources and ability to look into them and defend them and for the IRD simply to address them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ESo these are important points, Mr Nash, and I make them very genuinely. I really do think this committee now needs not simply a statement that it\u2019s all fine; I think this committee needs quite specific reference to the line item in the bill that makes it clear that there is something required of the IRD beyond simply saying \u201CWell, we\u2019re extending the time period.\u201D, because that is not enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002233b88343da8f41a1bc3a78b4b85d765a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233b88343da8f41a1bc3a78b4b85d765a\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. There are two points that I would like to address, and very briefly. First of all, it was a question asked by Andrew Bayly, and I didn\u2019t address this, and I do apologise. Mr Bayly asked if we were ahead of the pack, and if, in fact, we are ahead of the pack, does this create a disincentive for large multinationals to invest or do business in New Zealand? But I would argue\u2014no I wouldn\u2019t argue; the point is, we\u2019re not ahead of the pack. We\u2019re actually doing what is our fair share in meeting our global obligations. As mentioned, we have worked very closely with the OECD. We\u2019re rolling out legislation that meets our obligations, and I believe it would actually do more harm to our global reputation if, in fact, we were seen as a laggard as opposed to just meeting our obligations in a good, judicious way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe reason I say that is, as we all know, New Zealand is ranked No. 1 in the world in terms of transparency by Transparency International. I think if we were seen as a soft touch or if we were seen as not complying with our global obligations around profit shifting and base erosion, then it could do more harm than good. So I am very comfortable, and, in fact, I think everyone\u2014the select committee and the previous Minister of Revenue, Judith Collins\u2014is very comfortable, with the way that this is progressing. My understanding is this will not provide a disincentive in any way, shape, or form for any multinational to do business in New Zealand. In fact, the only ones that may have a concern\u2014and it certainly hasn\u2019t been signalled to me at all or, I understand, the select committee at all\u2014are those who would look to use the old rules to avoid paying tax. Of course, this is what this whole bill is about, to ensure that we close down the loopholes that stop multinationals from paying tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ETo the Hon Amy Adams, there is actually no legal concept of an investigation. What I would say\u2014and what was agreed at select committee, what is in the bill\u2014is that an investigation can start within a four-year time period but must be completed within that seven-year time period. This is what was agreed at the select committee, it is what is in the bill, and so nothing has changed in that respect. So what actually is the case is IRD can start an investigation within that four-year period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIn fact, if you look at\u2014not you, Mr Assistant Chair. If members understand tax rules, four years tends to be a general rule of thumb for tax. If you want to claim tax back, you\u2019ve got to do it within four years, for example, so it\u2019s a standard sort of time frame. However, as has been alluded to by a number of members, this is a complex piece of legislation and the law in itself was complex, and by the very nature of the law and the mischief it\u2019s seeking to address, often the investigation will take a length of time, but it has to be completed within seven years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ESo, Hon Amy Adams, nothing has changed from what was agreed to or discussed at select committee. That is my understanding, it was my understanding when the bill was introduced, and that certainly hasn\u2019t changed, and the officials have informed me that, in fact, that is still the case. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00225079cffd5a1f46358c86623408a6465a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225079cffd5a1f46358c86623408a6465a\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022 data-id=\u0022f813f8eca1ca473b890d803e4b4aaed4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f813f8eca1ca473b890d803e4b4aaed4\u0022\u003EALASTAIR SCOTT (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. There\u2019s plenty to talk about in this part of the bill, that\u2019s for sure. I\u2019d like to first acknowledge some of the comments that the Minister in the chair, Stuart Nash, has said, when he said that this is a complex piece of legislation. It\u2019s a progressive and evolutionary tax legislation that will continue to be developed. I\u2019m just reflecting on what the situation was 10 years ago when the global financial crisis hit the globe. Some of that was down to the fact that there were losses sitting in jurisdictions that people were not aware of, where derivatives played a major part in the bankruptcy, essentially, of banks and financial institutions across the globe, because one party could deal with another without the relevant IRDs knowing what was happening in those derivative and credit derivative markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003ESo we have come a long way. We have come a long way legislatively to ensure that profit sharing and base erosion particularly is less than it was then. But I do acknowledge that this is not going to stop it. This is not going to eliminate it. I acknowledge the Minister\u2019s comments when he said this is an evolutionary process, because you close one loophole and, essentially, you will end up creating another or a number of them\u2014perhaps smaller\u2014but you can\u2019t eliminate these loopholes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003ESo I commend both sides of the House and the Finance and Expenditure Committee for doing a lot of work in what\u2019s been produced here, but I do have a couple of questions. The first does relate to those exotics. I\u2019m just unsure or uncomfortable that the select committee has dealt with the type of exotic derivative, credit derivative, and over-the-counter derivative product that may not be known to any inland revenue department of a particular country. So those exotics\u2014I heard some comment in the select committee, but I wasn\u2019t especially satisfied. As the Minister says, there are some smart people out there, a lot of smart people, and I just want to be comfortable that all the effort and time and energy has been put into that particular sector, that particular group of people, who are moving or, historically, have moved profits from country to country without any real underlying business\u2014without any underlying business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003EThe second point I would like to clarify to the Minister is around the \u201Cbeeps\u201D, and this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022786a88c328e7466ab1331d4586a5f610\u0022\u003EDr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: BEPS.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4314d6cd7bf4329baf31979aa214e48\u0022\u003EALASTAIR SCOTT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the \u201Cbeeps\u201D; B-E-P-S\u2014risk, and the high leverage ratio of 40 percent. I\u2019m asking the Minister: what determined the 40 percent? What determined the 40 percent? What\u2019s so important about the 40 percent? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003EA subsidiary in New Zealand will quite likely have a very different risk profile to its parent, whether the parent\u2019s offshore or even onshore. So, for example, you might have\u2014and it doesn\u2019t have to be cross-border. You\u2019ll have an owner of a portfolio, and that owner might put a\u2014well, we know that, say, for example, the dairy industry is a very highly leveraged industry, so that might have a leverage appropriate and bankable of, say, 80 percent. Then we have another type of business that wouldn\u2019t be quite so bankable at that rate, and maybe you wouldn\u2019t want to put too much debt across it at all to make it a very high-risk investment. Perhaps, you know, goldmining, for example, or gas and oil exploration even. So you may not want to put a lot of debt across that\u2014two quite different businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003ESo by putting the 40 percent blanket across both potential subsidiaries of a parent who will have its own risk for debt and risk rating, but to transfer and assume I think is a simple\u2014very simple; it\u2019s an easy manageable thing to do\u2014but a potentially unfair measure and methodology, and the same can apply to the 15 percent tax rate that is determined to be a low tax rate. So how did the 15 percent tax rate be determined?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00226b871e1f37f143c8921997a629bcdde9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b871e1f37f143c8921997a629bcdde9\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is a fascinating and an interesting bill. It has been a very complex bill to get to grips with, I think, as we\u2019ve seen from some of the speeches this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to start by thinking about the nature of tax avoidance in general because this is an anti-avoidance bill. You might think we already had enough anti-avoidance measures in our legislation already. To start off with I want to go back to a very, very famous judgment in tax law, it\u2019s the Commissioners of Inland Revenue v Duke of Westminster in the UK. It\u2019s a 1936 judgment: \u201CEvery man is entitled if he can to order his affairs so as that the tax attaching under the appropriate Acts is less than it otherwise would be. If he succeeds in ordering them so as to secure this result, then, however unappreciative the Commissioners of Inland Revenue or his fellow taxpayers may be of his ingenuity, he cannot be compelled to pay an increased tax.\u201D It\u2019s a very, very famous judgment. What it is saying is that if anyone can order\u2014in this case\u2014his affairs so that they pay less tax and it\u2019s all done perfectly within the letter of the law, then, actually, you\u2019re entitled to do that because that\u2019s what the law says you\u2019ll do. So it\u2019s very broad. It gives people a huge permission to structure their affairs in order to pay less tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EActually, if you look at tax legislation over the years, what you\u2019ll see is that legislators have successively cut away at that principle. In fact, we\u2019ve got a general anti-avoidance provision sitting in our own tax legislation already. It\u2019s section BG 1 and what it says is\u2014paraphrasing just a little\u2014\u201CA tax avoidance arrangement is void \u2026 for income tax purposes.\u201D What that means is that the commissioner can set that arrangement aside and assess the tax as though the arrangement had not been in place. But, of course, in order to do that, you need to know what a tax avoidance arrangement is. What it is is an arrangement that directly or indirectly has tax avoidance as its purpose or effect, or as one of its purposes or effects. So then you get down to what tax avoidance is. Well, it\u2019s directly or indirectly altering the incidence of the income tax. What\u2019s fascinating about this particular bill that\u2019s in front of us is that it\u2019s all about companies\u2014multinational companies\u2014that are trying to directly or indirectly alter the incidence of any income tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo, in a sense, this is a belt and braces bill. All right, the belt is already there, with section BG 1, and by the time you follow it through the definitions it\u2019s already there. But, as we know, corporate lawyers are very, very clever. Tax legislation is very complex, and clever, clever tax lawyers take every advantage of it they can. So what this legislation does is it bolsters section BG 1 with respect to multinationals. It says, yes, we\u2019ve got this general anti-avoidance provision, but we\u2019re bolstering it. We\u2019re giving it more strength by having these very specific rules for multinationals. And they are indeed very specific\u2014you know, they actually only apply to a small number of companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EJust for the reassurance of Mr Alastair Scott, there is some reason for that 40 percent rule. Look, that 40 percent rule comes in where we\u2019re trying to identify which companies in New Zealand we think are base erosion and profit shifting (BEPS) risks, which companies we think, or the Inland Revenue thinks, it ought to be investigating. There are a couple of tests that have to be fulfilled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, the legislation as drafted had three tests in it. One of them was an EBITDA rule. Very roughly, if your interest was about a third, I think, of your EBITDA, then you were considered to be at risk. Now, for people who don\u2019t know what EBITDA is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f89392e837f348fab2753de0b3d46477\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Seek an extension of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225af8026aafe84b9dbc66ff383de4c6dd\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it\u2019s an accounting measure called earnings before interest, taxation, depreciation, and amortisation. I do know my tax rules, Mr Brownlee. When it comes to EBITDA\u2014so that particular rule was found to be too harsh. Submitters said, \u201CNo, that rule is too harsh.\u201D, and they asked us if we could in fact take it out, so we\u2019ve done that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThen there are two other bits\u2014and I just want to answer this, Mr Chair\u2014[Bell rung]\u2014to carry on to answer Mr Scott. I just do want to answer Mr Scott here. There are two tests left there, and you have to fulfil both of them. Now, so whatever our dairy companies do or our dairy farms do, it doesn\u2019t really matter, Mr Scott. What matters is what multinationals do, OK? If a New Zealand company has a high debt-equity ratio, and that\u2019s 40 percent\u2014now, we think that\u2019s pretty high in New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022644dced306c9406eb41283309e674a73\u0022\u003EAlastair Scott\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee5aab5c37764a3492ccf8e3986dcacd\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and if it is also borrowing from a parent in a low tax\u2014but it is for multinationals, and let\u2019s just distinguish them from farming companies. So if it\u2019s fulfilling both those, then IRD considers them a BEPS risk, but it\u2019s still only a risk. It\u2019s not saying they\u2019re doing it; they are a BEPS risk, and they might consider doing an investigation. And there\u2019s a de minimis there\u2014all right\u2014a level of protection there so that if there is $10 million or less of borrowing, then they\u2019re not going to be investigated as a BEPS risk. So there\u2019s quite a stringent set of criteria in there, and I hope that reassures you, Mr Scott, as to what might be going on with dairy companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo I think what you\u2019ll find with this legislation\u2014that was worked on very, very hard by many people in this House, both in the previous Government and this current Government; the people who\u2019ve sat on this select committee right throughout and the people who have joined the select committee recently\u2014is that we\u2019ve worked really hard to get this right. It is complicated, it is difficult, it is hard to understand, it is highly technical, and we are very, very grateful to our excellent officials and to our excellent official adviser, Therese Turner, for the work they have done to help us to understand what\u2019s going on and to help us to really think through the implications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI think we\u2019ll need to keep on working at this. I think we will find, perhaps, some things that could be done a little bit better. That\u2019s the nature of ground-breaking legislation. But I think we\u2019ve made a jolly good fist at getting this legislation right, and that is why I recommend this legislation to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00228ded7c2009ad4bfa89f2489c5a2a1f6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ded7c2009ad4bfa89f2489c5a2a1f6f\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I wanted to first of all acknowledge the contribution we\u2019ve had from Dr Deborah Russell. She does understand tax, and she does acknowledge that it\u2019s a very complex piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge Minister Stuart Nash. There have been a large number of questions raised, and I think on this occasion the committee of the whole House is working well, with the Minister making every effort to answer the questions that have been raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s one that I raised earlier which he hasn\u2019t addressed, and I just wanted the opportunity to raise that again. I was raising questions about the advance pricing agreements, and I asked could he explain the difference between an APA\u2014an advance pricing agreement\u2014and a binding ruling. He certainly then gave us an explanation of a binding ruling, and I think in giving that explanation, he might want to just seek some advice from officials as well, because in giving that explanation, he said a taxpayer enters into a discussion with the Inland Revenue Department and they agree an arrangement as to how tax might lie that is binding on IRD, but then the Minister said it\u2019s not binding on the taxpayer. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s right, and I think he just needs to check that through, because my understanding of a binding ruling is it binds both the IRD and the taxpayer. So I\u2019d be grateful for clarification on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EBut the second issue I raised was with the advance pricing agreements\u2014if he could explain the difference between those and a binding ruling\u2014and then the question is how many APAs are there. How frequently does IRD enter into substantial discussions with, obviously, larger corporate taxpayers and determine these advance pricing arrangements? How frequent are they? How many are there in existence? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second point I just wanted to pick up on was raised by the Hon Amy Adams with regards to the extending of the time bar and the work the Finance and Expenditure Committee did on that. IRD came to us and said it needed seven years because of the complexity of these issues. The select committee worked hard and said, \u201CListen, it\u2019s currently four. You want to extend it to seven. We can understand why, but hang on. That\u2019s a bit tough on any corporate that only finds out that it might be under investigation after, say, 6\u00BD years.\u201D So we\u2019ve made a modification in the select committee\u2014a recommendation to this committee of the whole House\u2014that the initiation of discussion between IRD, or perhaps their difference of agreement with the taxpayer, must be started within the four-year period. But then the Minister, in addressing the Hon Amy Adams\u2019 point, said, \u201CBut the investigation must conclude by seven years.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want the Minister give me some information as to how an investigation concludes. It seems to me that the IRD could indeed start a discussion with a taxpayer around that four-year period, then spend the next three years arguing with that taxpayer and not actually finalising things, and then, suddenly realising there\u2019s a time constraint against them right on the eve of the seven years, it could just say, \u201CInvestigation finished. Here\u2019s your tax liability.\u201D, with no further discussion at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d just be grateful if the Minister could give some answers to those two queries. The first one is about the APAs\u2014the advance pricing agreements\u2014and the second one is around just how an investigation that\u2019s up against a time line of seven years has to be concluded by the IRD and in a reasonable way to the taxpayer, so that the corporate taxpayer then has the ability to know that it\u2019s been finalised in a fair and consistent way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002266cc9c0d14244c6b83523c028c997d9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266cc9c0d14244c6b83523c028c997d9d\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. Just to very quickly answer the right honourable member, a binding ruling is actually binding only on the commissioner; it is not binding on the taxpayer. As mentioned, the taxpayer can ignore the binding ruling at their own peril, but it is not binding. An advance pricing agreement (APA) is actually a type of binding ruling. Again, it\u2019s not binding, but an APA is factually based, and it\u2019s undertaken with full taxpayer cooperation. So, again, like a binding ruling, a taxpayer will go to the commissioner. If they have concerns about their tax position or if they have a question about their tax liabilities or the tax position, the commissioner will issue a binding ruling. The taxpayer can then determine whether they take the commissioner\u2019s advice or not. The commissioner, of course, can then not change their advice, but the taxpayer can seek other advice. So it\u2019s binding only on the commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIn terms of the four years versus seven years, I completely agree with you: it would be unfair for inland revenue (IR) to draw out investigations simply because it felt like it. I\u2019m being a little bit glib here, but what I do mean is that I very much believe that IR undertakes investigations in a timely manner, and it does so because it is actually in the best interests of IR as well as the taxpayer itself. The reason for the four-year / seven-year split? I\u2019m the first to admit that if they\u2019ve started an investigation within four years and they\u2019ve got another three years to complete it, that is a long time to complete an investigation. But the reason it is the seven-year deadline is because this is complex\u2014this really is complex. Often you\u2019re not only dealing with an organisation or a multinational subsidiary based in this country but also dealing with complex tax legislation and maybe a group head office in their home country, and that could be anywhere from the Bahamas to goodness knows where.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ESo I do not think that IR will use seven years as a target\u2014i.e., let\u2019s draw them all out for seven years\u2014but that is there just to ensure that they can undertake these complex tax investigations and fulfil obligations and conclude them in a timely manner. But, like you, I would be very disappointed if IR drew them out just because they could, and I have absolutely never seen any evidence that that is the way IR actually undertakes investigations or that that is the IR\u2019s attitude towards investigations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00220238afef05a3486cbfa51a6f0e37ef13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220238afef05a3486cbfa51a6f0e37ef13\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u002287f0de566e104728bde319f0f9323875\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287f0de566e104728bde319f0f9323875\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to come back to the point I was raising in my last contribution, because I invited Minister Stuart Nash to address it, and he certainly got to his feet and spoke to it, but I\u2019m far from satisfied that his contribution resolves the issue. What I have done instead, and in light of that response\u2014because the Minister was unable to point to the provision in the bill which requires that the investigation be commenced within the four years, which is what the Finance and Expenditure Committee required\u2014is I have taken the liberty of putting a handwritten amendment on the Table to make exactly that provision in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EJust before we start discussing it, I just want to quote for the committee the part from the select committee report that talks about this, because it\u2019s very, very clear. Mr Nash, in his contribution, said, \u201CThis does exactly what the select committee said.\u201D\u2014which I don\u2019t agree with\u2014and he also talked about the fact that the IRD can start an investigation with employers. Well, we know they can; this is a question of whether we\u2019re obliging them to, which is what was the select committee recommendation. So the select committee said, \u201CWe recommend amending this provision\u201D\u2014so this is clause 36(4), amending section GC 13\u2014\u201Cto extend the time bar to seven years only\u201D\u2014and that\u2019s the critical word\u2014\u201Cin cases where Inland Revenue has begun a transfer pricing tax investigation within four years of the relevant tax return being filed, and has notified the taxpayer\u201D. So not to labour the point, but, very clearly, it\u2019s only to be extended when there has been a tax investigation commenced and notification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ENow, what clause 36(4) does is only provide for the notification requirement. Now, I certainly wouldn\u2019t want to imply that there\u2019s been any improper motivation here, but remember we started with a provision where IRD wanted a blanket seven years and the select committee said no. That\u2019s our proper role. The select committee said no to the IRD having a blanket seven years, or seven years at their discretion, and the select committee very clearly, in that passage I\u2019ve just quoted from, said, \u201CWe were only happy with IRD being able to extend it to seven years if they had commenced an investigation\u201D\u2014only if they\u2019d done that, not \u201Cthey could have\u201D, \u201Cthey might have\u201D, \u201Cthey\u2019re entitled to\u201D. They must have, and with notification. This actually really does matter, Minister, and it is very concerning to me to find that that obligation\u2014or that they must have commenced an investigation\u2014is not there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ENow, in select committee, I remember specifically asking the officials\u2014some of whom are with us\u2014whether commencing a tax investigation was a definitive thing that taxpayers and tax lawyers could understand and look to, because it sounded to me a little bit amorphous. How do you know whether an investigation has been commenced? And I was reassured that \u201CNo, no, commencing a tax investigation is quite a definitive process step that\u2019s well-understood, and it\u2019s clearly signalled, and there\u2019s a framework they go through.\u201D If records of the meeting are kept, I\u2019m sure that would be recorded. I was concerned that if you\u2019re going to put something in law, it has to be a definitive step that we can say, \u201CYes, that has happened, and so, therefore, the extension applies.\u201D We were absolutely assured that commencing a tax investigation is a very defined thing. There are steps that have to happen, and it will be very clear whether or not that has happened in the time frame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ESo I don\u2019t accept the advice that I imagine was passed to the Minister, where he said, \u201CWell, it\u2019s just one of those things and it can happen at any time.\u201D This is a very clear-cut line in the sand, and if the Minister takes the opportunity\u2014if his officials pass it to him\u2014to read that passage in the select committee report, which I\u2019ve quoted faithfully, but if he wants to reassure himself. We were very clear there was a two-legged requirement to extending it. It had to have commenced a tax investigation of the transfer pricing within four years, and it had to have notified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve got in the bill at the moment is only a notification requirement. That would give IRD what they started with, which is the ability to have a blanket extension to seven years in all cases. That is not what the select committee agreed to, that is not what we wanted to see back in front of the House, and if the Minister is going to be true to the select committee view\u2014and it was a cross-party view; it wasn\u2019t a split view\u2014then I would encourage him to support the amendment. There\u2019s nothing particularly positional in it. It\u2019s not a point-scoring exercise; it is a genuine intent to see the wording of the select committee report, which is very clear, reflected in the legislation in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ENow, in my last contribution, I asked the Minister, if I had missed it, to point me to the requirement where they had to have commenced a transfer pricing investigation in order to extend the time bar. He wasn\u2019t able to do so, and I don\u2019t criticise him for it. He would have received advice, but the advice that he reflected back to us in no way addressed that. And I think, Mr Nash, to be absolutely clear about this, if we\u2019re going to give effect to what the select committee said, there must be a two-legged requirement to extending it. It is not enough that the IRD simply chooses to advise the taxpayer that they want longer. That is not what we agreed to. That is not what the select committee report talks about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EI would urge you to support the amendment in my name. There\u2019s no press release around it, there\u2019s no positioning; it\u2019s just to get what the select committee said right, and, at the very least, to put it in the Hansard that that is absolutely the requirement in this bill. I can\u2019t see it; I encourage you to point to it. But for the sake of getting the legislation clear, so the taxpayers can understand their obligations with utter clarity and to have the obligations that this Parliament\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6d097227f514cbe9e1321053d07c0a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6d097227f514cbe9e1321053d07c0a9\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I will take time to address the honourable member Amy Adam\u2019s concerns, but first of all I must correct something I said to the Rt Hon David Carter. A binding ruling is binding on the commissioner but not binding on the taxpayer. However, I made a mistake when I said an advance pricing agreement (APA) is not binding on the taxpayer. An APA is actually binding on the taxpayer. So I do apologise to the member for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Hon Amy Adams, officials do consider the current drafting in the bill achieves the policy that was recommended by the Finance and Expenditure Committee. Keeping in mind that this bill has been gone over with a fine-tooth comb, as has every tax bill, but simply because of the complexity of this, the thing is that there is actually no\u2014and this is, again, we\u2019re getting into the nitty-gritty of this\u2014legal existing definition of a tax investigation, so adding a reference to a tax investigation could lead to uncertainty and disputes about what qualifies as a tax investigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ESo if a commissioner hadn\u2019t notified the taxpayer within four years, then the tax position is final. So the company puts in a return\u2014if the commissioner has not started an investigation within four years, then the tax position is final.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b71d075a413483ba2f87e187293d7fe\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: But the bill doesn\u2019t say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e711526c102748dbbf272f5c9cd7a059\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: But that is just the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ec63aeb9f34b94824bbdf9feed701c\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: But it\u2019s not the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c52a4b7379943fb94d489b316f84d25\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: It is the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bd1f9afefb74d14a44f3d39f3f6c1c2\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Where? Where in the law does it say that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d4bc34702144e8c9c3fe09feba49f99\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: The current provision is certain that the commissioner needs to explicitly notify the taxpayer that they are applying the provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e6b720c1497466e81a826a2899d58e9\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: They could do that in every case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc7fe0d92f63451aabfd830e207028cb\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: And you\u2019re dead right, and the thing is that we can clarify this position by using the inland revenue\u2019s administrative guidance, but not every detail of every tax rule is included in the legislation, especially administrative rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EBut let me make one thing clear\u2014let me make one thing clear. So a taxpayer puts in a return. If the inland revenue (IR) or the Commissioner of Inland Revenue has not queried that within a four-year period, then the tax position is final. Then the tax position is final\u2014that is the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022956f34f338e6445c84ee54028673fe4a\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203acfeb385084d278df24657c508e54d\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: No, what it says here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281c958228cf343aebbbe4ce4a1bcfa40\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t say that in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022419cb2b6baec44d9a978245ec44847dc\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: No, what it does say here is if, however, this is queried within that four-year period, then the commissioner has the ability to extend that for seven years. I quote new section GC 13(6), set out in clause 36(4), \u201CDespite the time bar, the Commissioner may amend an assessment for a tax year (the assessed year)\u201D\u2014I\u2019m not going to read it all\u2014\u201Cin order to give effect to this section and to sections [blah, blah, blah] \u2026 in which a return of income is made for the assessed year if, at any time in the period of 4 tax years after the return year, the Commissioner notifies the taxpayer that this subsection applies.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ENow, I believe\u2014having read and gone over these as our revenue spokesperson and now our revenue Minister for about seven of my nearly nine years in this place, I think this is clear. The officials believe this is clear, so in that case\u2014[Interruption] No, no\u2014read this section again and I think that you\u2019ll find that it is clear. And just to clarify one last time, a company puts in a return. If the IR has not queried that return within four years, there is no problem\u2014OK? There is no problem whatsoever\u2014the tax position is final. If within that four-year period\u2014and it states it here\u2014IR queries the return, if \u201Ca return of income is made for \u2026 assessed [period] if, at any time in the period of 4 tax years after the return year, the Commissioner notifies the taxpayer that this subsection applies.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhat that actually means within that four-year period\u2014[Interruption] Well, I\u2019m just quoting it again. If the commissioner notifies it, then the commissioner may amend the assessment in order to give effect to the section. I believe this is clear, and I wrote\u2014you know, I did a Master\u2019s in law on this sort of stuff. To me, this is clear, and I\u2019ll leave it at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7abe501e8fc4cf883bb18f65bbce900\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7abe501e8fc4cf883bb18f65bbce900\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on the Taxation (Neutralising Base Erosion and Profit Shifting) Bill at this, the committee stage. I didn\u2019t have the benefit of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022744086c453874b54b58c179ab07d3e94\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Committee of the whole House. Select committees are in the morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294c93a9e9be94219a4a09b6b5d80affe\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me\u2014committee of the whole House. I thank the Hon Ruth Dyson for her intervention, which is assisting my deliberation and, indeed, my timekeeping. Not having spent the time in the select committee, I feel I know enough to speak to the bill but not so much that I have no questions of the Minister, so perhaps he will allow me to pose some slight queries that I have. He might be able to gain some guidance from either the officials or perhaps Dr Deborah Russell, or indeed himself\u2014an expert in his own right, of course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy focus has been very much the banking groups\u2019 role within the regime. It seems to me an important one, given that banking groups themselves might be entities that have parent bodies and, obviously, exist and operate within New Zealand. Of course, those are also gatekeepers to some extent in that they manage, in a certain meaning of that phrase, the tax or, indeed, the financial affairs of other entities, again, overseas and within New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo within Part 1, therefore, I\u2019ve been interested, in particular, in clauses 29B and 29C. Taking the first of those first, I note that the bill will amend section FE 21(3) in the parent Act the definition of \u201Cequity value\u201D, so that whereas the Act currently states that \u201C \u2018Equity value\u2019 is the total financial value\u201D of some five different criteria, a sixth is now being added, of course, at new paragraph (f). I won\u2019t read the entire thing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b26809f3c684d1e9fecc064e0d19e96\u0022\u003EDr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, go on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220430ebee0bad4ed2a4cdf54a95651b3a\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014much as I would be encouraged by members opposite to do so, but it seems that it\u2019s a pretty clear invitation to add into that calculation of value, or indeed that definition of \u201Cvalue\u201D, financial arrangements that are not included in paragraphs (a) to (e). In other words, to that which has not already been contemplated and captured in the first five criteria, a sixth is to be inserted by way of a catch-all type of provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo then, the proportion of the financial value of such an arrangement\u2014again, as not already previously included\u2014as the proportion of the total interest expenditure under the arrangement in the income year is denied in one of three ways. I won\u2019t spell them out in detail, to the relief, no doubt, of all members of this committee, including myself. But suffice it to say that it\u2019s a pretty comprehensive part of the section, I believe, and, certainly, that will have been the intent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe overall flavour of the Act\u2014and, indeed, this bill to amend the Act\u2014essentially, is to be comprehensive. It is to capture those arrangements which have not already been contemplated and, indeed, caught by our existing tax regimes\u2014of course, specifically in the context of overseas parent entities operating in New Zealand under some part. So my question then, Minister, is whether you are confident now with the insertion of that point that the definition of \u201Cequity value\u201D is going to be sufficiently comprehensive, or if something even broader, even more generic, might be added to that section. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t dwell on the fact that a third subsection relates to the timing of the commencement\u20141 July 2018, which feels like it might arrive before the end of my time speaking. That may or may not be just myself who feels that way, but that\u2019s been noted by fellow members of the House as well as by submitters\u2014the very short period of time that there will be for compliance and arrangement of affairs that would be appropriate so that entities can meet their obligations under this Act. So that\u2019s one of the two sections that I\u2019ve been focusing on in relation to the rights and responsibilities of banking groups, with the other being section 29C, which amends in section FE 23(2) the formula for the funding debt that is to be made by a reporting bank, which, as I understand it, is the broader entity which might have an overseas element.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022567984e9927940a88d8b7548a3d20cf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022567984e9927940a88d8b7548a3d20cf8\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Civil Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002201fa83dd32bd4399a8482bc6a81bacb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201fa83dd32bd4399a8482bc6a81bacb6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Paul Goldsmith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022db84a9d3cf7b40e3a6a79f716791783e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db84a9d3cf7b40e3a6a79f716791783e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, so very kind of you, Mr Chair. Look, I am a little concerned that people listening into this debate might be a little bit flummoxed by some of the details that are being discussed, and I\u2019m very keen to try and lay out, in the simplest terms possible, some of the issues that we\u2019re trying to address with this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EFundamentally, it\u2019s in relation to how non-residents can reduce their tax that they pay in New Zealand by capitalising their investment with debt instead of equity. So if we took one example of, say, an Australian investor putting $100 million of capital into a New Zealand company as equity, and that company earns $10 million a year from sales and pays $2.8 million in tax\u2014so 28 percent of $10 million is $2.8 million in tax. Now, if the company pays the rest of the profits as a dividend\u2014$7.2 million\u2014it\u2019s earning $10 million and paying $2.8 million as tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, another company could invest in the same business, and instead of putting $100 million in capital into the business, it puts it in as debt with an interest rate of 10 percent. If that\u2019s the case, the same company would earn the $10 million, but it has to pay $10 million of tax-deductible interest back to its parent company, and so the taxable income, as a result, is zero. So no tax is paid by the company, and the only tax that is paid is a 10 percent interest withholding tax on the $10 million of interest it\u2019s paid. So the net result of that is that only $1 million is paid in tax to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo the difference between the two ways of capitalising that investment in New Zealand, of $100 million, is the difference between $2.8 million in tax and $1 million in tax\u2014or an effective tax rate of 28 percent and an effective tax rate of 10 percent. So, obviously, that\u2019s a big difference and has a very big impact on investment decisions. So what we\u2019re doing with this legislation is to say, \u201CWell, actually, we\u2019re not going to let you do it\u201D\u2014as that second investor had\u2014\u201Cwith putting in 100 percent debt and charging 10 percent interest in order to reduce your taxable income to zero.\u201D So what we\u2019re saying here is that the debt can\u2019t be more than 60 percent of the assets. So it\u2019s an arbitrary figure, and I\u2019d be interested in getting a sense from the Minister whether we\u2019ve got that arbitrary level right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen we have this strong view on what the appropriate interest rate should be. As we\u2019ve been discussing, the rule that\u2019s been set out is that rather than just letting them dream up whatever interest rate they want, the pattern through most of the world is to have an arm\u2019s-length interest rate, which is, effectively, what the market would sustain, but we\u2019re not happy with that either. We\u2019re going to now suggest that it should be the interest rate that\u2019s determined by the credit rating of the parent company. If it\u2019s a multinational company based in Germany, for example, with a high credit rating, then that would lead to a low interest rate. So what we\u2019re saying in that example is that rather than borrowing it at a 10 percent interest rate, they might have to borrow it at a 4 percent interest rate, which is much lower and might not relate to the risk profile of the company involved. So the net outcome of that\u2014the combination of not allowing them to put as much debt in and not allowing them to charge as high an interest rate\u2014is that they will pay more tax in New Zealand, and that effective tax rate will go up from, say, 10 percent, in the example that I used at the start, to maybe something closer to 28 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, the concern, of course\u2014and I\u2019m holding the disclosure statement and regulatory impact statement\u2014is that if you over-egg it, you could have the impact of reducing the amount of investment coming into New Zealand. So getting that balance right is the critical thing, and I go back to raising the question with the Minister: how confident is he that the decision that we\u2019ve landed on, with two notches below the credit rating\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002241eb1cf4e18f4e7784a0a482cb204dc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241eb1cf4e18f4e7784a0a482cb204dc2\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s always a risk for a former Minister of Revenue to be speaking on a bill like this\u2014particularly one where he wasn\u2019t on the select committee\u2014but I\u2019m going to give it a go nevertheless and try not to sound like the grumpy uncle at the family reunion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge the Minister in the chair, Stuart Nash, and his efforts to address the technical questions that the committee has put to him, because I think it is a credit to him and to the process of the committee of the whole House that we don\u2019t always see in this Chamber, which is a preface for a relitigation of an answer that he gave. I do so because I think it is fundamental to the powers that we are trying to give\u2014and the curbs on the powers that we\u2019re trying to give\u2014inland revenue in respect of the seven-year limitation on the transfer pricing arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, there was a very good exchange, I think, between the Hon Amy Adams and the Hon Stuart Nash in respect of that point, and I want to come back to it because I believe there is a risk in not carefully wording the intention that the Finance and Expenditure Committee and the Government have in respect of this clause\u2014I think it\u2019s clause 36(4), amending section GC 13. I know some very good tax accountants and lawyers in the market, and we now have on record the Government\u2019s intent, but I don\u2019t believe that we have it in the words that will end up in the Act if the bill is passed as it is now. Essentially, we can break down clause 36(4) this way: there is a time bar; there is an exception to it. An amendment can be made for up to seven years, if, in the first four years\u2014and these are the key words\u2014\u201Cthe Commissioner notifies the taxpayer that this subsection applies.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3f8263d171644169e01d5dea3a5e1be\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve heard all this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2747f5b254940398f5bae0e42d3a66e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, but here is the point. What we risk if this amendment is not approved is that every single decision inland revenue make to extend the time bar will have challenges brought to it, probably into the courts, by very, very good lawyers and accountants who are working for large companies that will want to reduce the time bar to the shortest period possible. Now, it may well be that there is a legitimate investigation under way, but the law doesn\u2019t require that to be the case, except we now have the select committee report and the Hansard of this debate where the Minister himself, as well as the shadow Minister of Finance, have accepted that the intention of this was for an investigation to have started. And if the law doesn\u2019t say that, then my concern is that the decision will be challenged in the court and set aside, and the taxpayers will be the worse for the fact that if the transfer pricing arrangements were found to be unlawful or incorrect in law, then that cannot be properly challenged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s no surprise that the IRD would like to take a longer time. I think that\u2019s understandable. Indeed, these arrangements can be notoriously complex, and if they are not subject to advance pricing arrangements, as the law allows, and they are not well-known to inland revenue, then it is possible that they don\u2019t come to the department\u2019s attention until quite late in that four-year period. But the expectation that the committee had was that an investigation should have commenced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, I was fascinated at the Minister\u2019s comment that the term \u201Cinvestigation\u201D is not defined. I\u2019m not a lawyer, but I would have thought that in policing, in commissions of inquiry, and in tax law, \u201Cinvestigation\u201D has a nomenclature and is an understood term that is more than just kicking the tyres on a tax return\u2014that something has to have happened. I go back to what I believe is a very well-worded, handwritten amendment by the Hon Amy Adams, and I would implore the Minister to rethink whether or not, for the avoidance of any doubt\u2014he has given us his assurance that he thinks the words in clause 36(4) are OK, and I don\u2019t want to challenge that. But, for the avoidance of doubt, there is no harm in considering this amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc4f12733ebf4b00bbc9b87a85abf866\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc4f12733ebf4b00bbc9b87a85abf866\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E After listening to the Hon Amy Adams, I was not convinced in any way, shape, or form there needs to be an amendment, but after listening to the former revenue Minister Michael Woodhouse, he does make a good point. My personal view is that it is clear. However, in order to avoid any doubt whatsoever\u2014because if doubt exists in the mind of the former revenue Minister, then I\u2019ll take that on board\u2014what I will propose is an amendment to clause 36(4), new section GC 13(6). So after, and I quote\u2014you may want to follow this\u2014\u201Cnotifies the taxpayer that\u201D\u2014so this is in new section GC 13(6)\u2014I will insert \u201Ca tax audit or investigation has commenced, and\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9dcca4e4bc94e5e824c95b18f66c086\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CAnd applies\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8c41cefcb4e4591a3f4167b6790d442\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: That would be perfectly appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c71e8ed29217439c86c787eba91956b9\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014no\u2014and then \u201Cthis subsection applies\u201D. Will that satisfy the former Minister of Revenue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2ef69ab8ee94e19b85fc37b2a9416c2\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1970881b8da4acca2c53e0d3b84f058\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: So I do thank the former Minister of Revenue, because he makes the point much clearer than his colleague, and as a consequence of that I will table that amendment. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb7acf499fbc4f4d89a947789127c96d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb7acf499fbc4f4d89a947789127c96d\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. First of all, I just want to acknowledge Minister Nash. This is how good laws are made\u2014when we have an interactive situation in committee of the whole House where we have a Minister who\u2019s engaged, knows his topic, and actually wants to respond. So I do want to commend him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOne of the issues we haven\u2019t discussed tonight\u2014we\u2019ve been talking a lot about interest rates, a lot about interest rates, and, of course, by lowering interest rates or making them high, that\u2019s how you can reduce tax that a New Zealand subsidiary, branch, associate, or whatever will pay to its foreign parent. The other side of the coin is around thin capitalisation rules. I\u2019m sure that Mr Chair is an expert in this topic. But I just thought I would just highlight some of the issues around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBefore I do that, I think it\u2019s useful just to explain to some of us\u2014perhaps for people listening\u2014what we mean about \u201Cthin capitalisation\u201D. In essence, if you have a company, you might have a very low ownership share\u2014or what\u2019s called equity\u2014and shove in a whole lot of debt. So your debt to equity ratio is very high. That\u2019s obviously a way to reduce the tax burden, because if you\u2019ve got a high amount of debt and charge interest on it, then, as my colleague the Hon Paul Goldsmith said, you can reduce the profits of the company, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re trying to stop with this base erosion and profit shifting (BEPS) bill tonight. Normally, it\u2019s expressed as debt to equity or debt to assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo, just to put it another way, if we have a debt to equity ratio of 1.5 to 1, that means we\u2019ve got debt of 1.5 to 1 of equity, or, basically, for every $3 of debt, we\u2019ve got $2 of equity. Or, turning it around another way, that\u2019s 67 percent gearing. Of course, in this bill the maximum permitted debt is set at least than 40 percent, as my good colleagues over here know very clearly. In Australia, as I said before, it\u2019s set at 60 percent, and we\u2019ve already got that inconsistency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo there are five things I want to say about thin capitalisation. The first one is something that was raised by Chapman Tripp and Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand, and that is the issue around the subtraction of value of non-debt liabilities from a firm\u2019s asset base for the purposes of determining thin capitalisation rules. Of course, their view was that this actually shouldn\u2019t occur under the BEPS rule, as it does not currently result in taxpayers exceeding commercial levels of debt. The officials\u2019 response to this, actually, was that the submitters are correct and that this proposition is not part of the OECD\u2019s BEPS recommendation. However, the officials added that ever since the inception of Australia\u2019s thin capitalisation rules, those rules have subtracted non-debt liabilities in the same way that is being proposed in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI just think we\u2019ve talked earlier about principles about making sure that we have the same sort of approach as all the other countries that are going to adopt the BEPS arrangement around the world, because that is the strongest way of making it happen. The most important trading partner, of course, is Australia, and already we\u2019ve got a little bit of difference showing up in that. So I would appreciate some views from the Minister around the issue of non-debt liabilities being subtracted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second issue is how they\u2019re treated, and PricewaterhouseCoopers submitted that the treatment of non-debt liability proposals should better reflect how the company uses them. So for some companies, they will have a different approach than others. If you\u2019re a trading company, the way you approach your assets will be different from a mining company. I\u2019ll tell you what, it\u2019s very interesting looking at the mining arrangements, which is that the lenders may want to take into account the deferred tax liabilities\u2014or DTLs as they\u2019re referred to\u2014or perhaps remediation provisions. So if you\u2019re doing mining activities\u2014let\u2019s say oil\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfb6e01dccaf441b8b3516aabb19c4f7\u0022\u003EAlastair Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Oil and gas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2f28dbf1acd4ff18a38f9ab845708f2\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014oh!\u2014in those extractive industries there is always a requirement that at the end of the working period of that mine, you actually pick up the liability for what goes on\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002212596c91062647e2adf5ada6ee14a64e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212596c91062647e2adf5ada6ee14a64e\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022 data-id=\u002248c136b6a6e042f5b7c888a21070c374\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248c136b6a6e042f5b7c888a21070c374\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E My apologies, Mr Bayly. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3a8f9facac445e18e959a6d169a7711\u0022\u003ERt Hon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve waited all night for this\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe3c740dc92040af9e88eca998e044d4\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have waited all night, in the depths of winter. I want to acknowledge the Hon Stuart Nash for the way in which he\u2019s answered the questions on this Part 1 of the bill. I imagine this might be the last speech of the evening, so in this I\u2019m going talk about, actually, the fact that this is a bill that had a genesis with the Hon Judith Collins. It\u2019s been through a process, it\u2019s been through a select committee process, and\u2014as a new person to Parliament and as a new person to this\u2014it\u2019s actually a pretty complicated bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EIt is projected to produce $270 million of extra revenue, and there are lots of rorts that have been going on around interest rates, valuations, costs, and all the rest of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201806124a96ef4e140542939df8ca7544f3aeb4000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"