"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022915f8ddce24641388438a44890ce2529\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 4 JULY 2018\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7ceca18b5ce4b3e9bc195ac7ff58c69\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 4 JULY 2018\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d7c25b461f8d4083aafc658cb87a1a8d\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e1969e8ce6849a2b3195652ceb9028f\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u2014Ministerial Responsibility\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff2b3d51a20c40988c202c032d75df44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff2b3d51a20c40988c202c032d75df44\u0022\u003ESPEAKER:\u003C/span\u003E Members may remember that I undertook to come back with a considered ruling in the area of ministerial responsibility. Questions to Ministers are one of the core accountability mechanisms possessed by the House. They enable it to hold the Government to account for its actions and policies. Standing Orders and precedents should be interpreted in favour of Ministers answering questions for matters for which they are responsible. Only Ministers can answer to the House for matters of public administration, and exemptions from answering should be rare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAn important element of ministerial accountability is collective responsibility. The House expresses its confidence in the collective whole of Government, rather than in individual Ministers. In all areas of their work, Ministers represent and implement government policy (paragraph 5.24, Cabinet Manual). However, since the introduction of MMP, the concept of collective responsibility has changed somewhat, with parties in Government having the ability to agree to disagree. Such arrangements need to be taken into account when considering ministerial responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAs far as the House is concerned, a broad view is taken of the concept of ministerial responsibility. The starting point is Standing Order 378, which permits questions to Ministers relating to public affairs with which the Minister is officially connected, and proceedings in the House or any matter of administration for which the Minister is responsible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe question of responsibility has received significant attention from presiding officers over many years because of its importance to the role of the House in holding the Government to account. Speaker Carter ruled that where the Speaker judges a question to reveal a reasonable likelihood of a connection to ministerial responsibility, an informative answer must be given (Speaker\u2019s ruling 155/1).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMinisters may be answerable for things that are operational matters (Speakers\u2019 ruling 160/3); are outside their legal control but within their portfolio responsibility, such as the statutory powers exercised by an official (Speaker\u2019s ruling 160/1); occurred in the portfolio before he or she was Minister (Speaker\u2019s ruling 155/5) because questions relate to portfolios, not individual people (Speaker\u2019s ruling 156/1); are contained in coalition agreements where they have implications for Government business (Speaker\u2019s ruling 156/4); and are a matter that impinges on ministerial responsibilities, particularly where a Minister has made statements or answered questions about it (Speakers\u2019 rulings 156/5 and 157/1).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIt has long been accepted the Ministers are not answerable for their actions as members of their parties (Speakers\u2019 ruling 157/4). They do not have ministerial responsibility for their actions or statements as a member of Parliament. However, it is not always easy to distinguish the capacity in which a member is speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAs a rule of thumb, if a Minister speaks about a matter that might be interpreted as being Government policy, it will be taken as being a statement in a ministerial capacity, unless the circumstances in which the statement is made would make that interpretation impossible to sustain. In general, it is the subject matter of comments made by a Minister that determine whether he or she, or another Minister, has ministerial responsibility for them, rather than the place in which they were made or the audience to whom they were made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWhere statements are made by Ministers that might be interpreted as being Government policy, it is open to members of the House to test whether, in fact, they are Government policy and to question the Government about them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI will have this ruling circulated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e1171af61b746ab9b429b6f2f4189b7\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1203462872140c49b4311e4a2c5445c\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022044b5cac235948b4a7c75c884ea3218d\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014IMF Forecasts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002220375bf423b342f690f42bee66eaa1dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220375bf423b342f690f42bee66eaa1dc\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00229eadcc4a8f6d4117babbaeff54822ed5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229eadcc4a8f6d4117babbaeff54822ed5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The International Monetary Fund (IMF) today released its latest annual article 4 report on the New Zealand economy and the Government\u2019s economic plan. The forecasts in the report indicate the economy is expected to grow by about 3 percent a year over the next five years, that unemployment will continue to fall, and that wages will continue to rise above inflation. The IMF said that New Zealand\u2019s economic expansion remains solid and that the economic outlook is favourable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e794a7a07581497fbef3ae03ee0eacd2\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What did the IMF say about how the Government\u2019s economic plan will help drive growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022068063ab38c84009ad9750cc84d6050a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: IMF staff noted that the Government\u2019s policy agenda seeks to support productive, sustainable, and inclusive growth. They noted how growth-friendly measures in the December mini-Budget and Budget 2018 would help drive this growth. In particular, the IMF said that our research and development tax incentive could be an efficient instrument to support R \u0026amp; D spending in the business sector. They said that tax reform could play an important role in shifting incentives towards broader business investment and that the Provincial Growth Fund could help boost regional growth while taking pressure off the main centres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f01ec7d746e84761a22d4f403dd9689d\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What did the IMF say about infrastructure investment in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204e77e9a1f294032804d0aa269574878\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The IMF noted that the current Government has increased spending on infrastructure, but I do acknowledge their comment that we might still see infrastructure gaps continue over the next few years, which goes to show the extent of the infrastructure deficit that this Government inherited. It was interesting to see the IMF comments on rail, notably that there are important gaps in New Zealand\u2019s rail infrastructure. These gaps did not appear over the last nine months. Since the IMF\u2019s report was finalised, the coalition Government has announced a record 10-year nationwide transport infrastructure investment\u2014$4 billion next year\u2014which reintroduces rail into New Zealand\u2019s productivity and economic growth story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ea22540deb342c79b22ec9fe6c1bd1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the finance Minister this: with respect to the IMF\u2019s alternative executive director for New Zealand, Grant Johnston\u2014what was his connection with New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a8013ee45de47ef9a53104f5c8ab534\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Grant Johnston, who\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267e8c99d4f3b4d26b8b429569e82ccc2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I don\u2019t think that relates\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e782e9d5b634bf9b131dab7e934858b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: He wrote the report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b6346e75d8648e9b2aca8ca10d21964\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bd64443b13a40248769eacd304776f1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can I help you in this matter by\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275789f254521403281596a6e78b3cd72\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, I don\u2019t\u2014in fact, I don\u2019t think the Acting Prime Minister can. I think that all of us know the oft-repeated Speakers\u2019 rulings about using Government supplementary questions to have a crack at the Opposition, and while not all members of the House might be familiar with the direction that the Minister of Finance is being invited to take, it is one which is not appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cd18f923a8b49ccb3c5d0cbf6f42041\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: With respect, I think that a member of Parliament should be entitled to set out the CV and the public esteem both here and internationally of someone who wrote the report. That, surely, is not a malicious political position to take. So can I ask my question, sir?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e046da1e8bec4aba83a5013a475d810c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The\u2014[Interruption]\u2014I beg your pardon? One thing I\u2019m certain of is that the Hon Ron Mark can\u2019t add to the submissions that have just been made by the Acting Prime Minister, and trying to do so when I\u2019m getting to my feet is most inappropriate. On the question that has been raised by the Acting Prime Minister, I think saying that he\u2019s trying to build the credibility of the report, as opposed to taking a shot of the Opposition, is too long a bow for me to risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228fa92be8412b4e9e900beff27d3670fb\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014Business Confidence and Economic Policy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022417874e94b4a4e639e43bce18d21d01f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022417874e94b4a4e639e43bce18d21d01f\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s policies and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002213a381cd6e0846a7b335dc7a6e7c7cbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213a381cd6e0846a7b335dc7a6e7c7cbd\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Acting Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E Sometimes, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022964112dbcc5b4c74b8f9371eec4bcdf6\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with David Parker that business confidence surveys are junk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d10c4d5dd7dd42a29a4cc7ad6388b013\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: In the way that I just heard a most credible report from the IMF\u2014so independent and so far removed from New Zealand, written in the main by the executive director for New Zealand, Grant Johnston, formerly of John Key\u2019s economic advice office\u2014yes, I do agree with Mr Parker\u2019s wise comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224181fed8021a48fe8b049bc5996fd442\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does he disagree with senior bank economists in New Zealand who\u2019ve said, on the back of plummeting business confidence, that the Reserve Bank will need to revise down the GDP growth outlook, and when it comes to what firms are saying about their own activity, it\u2019s a case of, \u201Cignore this information at your peril.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022222832724a7a48f4ba610e175e29f619\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, Mr Robertson, the finance Minister, very clearly put out, in the most succinct and abbreviated and learned fashion, that the IMF disagrees with those comments. They forecast 3 percent growth for the next five years\u2014all right? I hope that member\u2019s still around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220340728fc9b0462b8769819bc6d593d0\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: So are the ASB, the BNZ, the Westpac, and the ANZ economists wrong about these?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6ddcefdb7c64f32b01492fa5daf8343\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say that those accounts written by, in the main, offshore, Aussie-owned banks, are not in the best\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4e72d982c924e4191f097bbb574cd2e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: So is the IMF.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a499e717600486baf65f29045420757\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. The IMF, Mr Brownlee, is not owned by the Aussie banks. That was your mistake the last time you were in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226537283625ac4513bbcecedca01e2bd0\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I never made any such allegation. That\u2019s besmirching my reputation. The reality is that the IMF operates out of Washington DC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224434bc5dee304da5a1fffedb317795e4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member knows that is not a point of order. It\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220aa386d72564ed9a4cc1bc32a626800\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4c7cea386184a1caa2ba48517f01875\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I suppose that balances it up, doesn\u2019t it\u2014sort of ridiculous each side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a796325561834664988c01d8935aa94c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept his Government\u2019s policies such as many working groups, labour law reforms, high fuel taxes, and the shutdown of oil and gas are creating uncertainty in cost and played a role in plummeting business confidence and in the declining GDP growth outlook?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4b9858a4725479482e4116134cbdde3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I tell that Leader of the Opposition that there are two very countervailing comments from the market. One is from the mass majority of New Zealanders who are workers, and work confidence and employment confidence has never been so high for a long, long time. And then at the other end of the spectrum, people that are thought\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222831d423f67840288211eed3e297fd32\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why they\u2019re striking!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285ea48d27dd24789810c9a87a7325024\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, look; can you just listen, because you\u2019ll learn something, I assure you. Perhaps not you, Gerry, but the rest will. Can I just say, at the other end of the spectrum you have the stock market, which is back at the new record today as I speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a0481daa1884ab9acdd73472223a2dd\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: When you told journalist Richard Harman that \u201Cthe coalition Government will not \u2018blink\u2019 like the Clark Government did when it was faced with the \u2018Winter of Discontent\u2019 loss of business confidence in 2000; and said \u201CI believe that some people lost their nerve in that administration and that sadly affected the shape of their economic direction. That was disappointing because they had a chance to do much more in terms of structural change to the economy and they didn\u2019t do it.\u201D, what structural change to the economy does he believe is required?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e407fe2a96584bb2a3706cd9e628e0ed\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The very structural change that you are seeing from a very visionary Government in 2018.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aecc9cc692a94fbeb189c85028cdbd18\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219c687da46af482686ea10975a2051c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can only say things slowly. You\u2019ll have to wait. Shouting out, \u201CWhat is that?\u201D after I tell him what its nature is won\u2019t do, and I\u2019m sure his PR advisers have told him to act more leader-like than that, stand up more slowly, be more careful, and try to be a gentleman. Now, if I can help that member, the reality is that this Government is setting out on some serious structural change; namely, to no longer neglect infrastructure, to ensure that the provinces have their real day in this country, to ensure that the ordinary people are the stakeholders in our future\u2014in short, to grow this economy and make sure that the mass majority, not the elite few, are the beneficiaries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280ca047c8de2471dbe5f518a9f749e73\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: So in terms of the core economic, macroeconomic, and prudential policy settings and structural change, what was he referring to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc421d35f9d5482b9fa2050cbb248627\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: As Ricky Martin would say, macro, micro, inside, upside, the whole lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cefb7e5beb14000b169b1d4ea9f2b97\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: When he said to Anika Moa that the blame started in July 1984 when the free market, a massive experiment, took over with devastating consequences, what policies would he implement to take us back to before then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274c376a8608b48aa935641c9c2f10e2a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for raising the Anika Moa programme. I think it\u2019s the most popular programme they\u2019ve ever had on television of late, for that night anyway. But the point I was making\u2014and I was making it very clear to her\u2014was that as Rogernomics was beginning here, a man called Keating, under leader Bob Hawke, who knew the market in Australia, was starting. One country took incremental change; the other country had a revolution. The Australians grew 35 percent in real terms greater than us, and imagine what a country we would have been if it hadn\u2019t been for the myopic neoliberal nonsense that his party inherited, even though their best leader at the time told them not to; namely, yours truly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1732cb50a5b4c969f3ff134e39c4345\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Given his statements about the need for structural reform and given the free market experiment has clearly failed, in his view, since July 1984, does he believe a more command-and-control economy is required?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e302ba4747a4462b4a40300c8c5b7c6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The present Government, strangely enough, shares a view of the then National Party leader Jim Bolger, who defended the neoliberal experiment but in a recent television interview said that it was wrong; the policies simply didn\u2019t work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bae0be84e2df4a39bbeaca91c7475e7b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What would he change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022489ff68346a64f629c5c7f0ce3b2814b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what we\u2019ve changed is we have our Damascus experience before we start off, not when we end off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201d753f4d91c4aed98f47990b37826ec\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Given that he said, though, that structural change is required, that that experiment failed, and that more changes are needed\u2014well, just what are they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c282f8466ce1446a98c8b99420561d9a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they were outlined by the Minister of Finance today. He talked about research and development. The IMF recognises that. He\u2019s talking about the provincial recovery and infrastructural investment. The IMF referred to that. The IMF even said that the foreign ownership controls on housing would help the housing situation in New Zealand\u2014all those things there. And I want to know why the National Party economic adviser at the time, who is writing this report, was ignored by the National Party that paid him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b04e520d849b41f191c95764946e01a4\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned that his Government has implemented and proposed policies that will increase the cost of living for New Zealanders by over $100 a week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022903e5786a8fe40cb8199b0fcecba0257\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: We are not concerned by the constant repetition of the figures and predictions that we\u2019ve disproved in all the days and all the weeks since that member started raising them. It was rubbish then and it\u2019s rubbish on 18 July 2018.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ae43d28f0f14654ad7902f1341082a3\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to Treasury analysis that 1.7 million families\u2014that\u2019s 75 percent of New Zealand families\u2014will be worse off by $17 per week as a result of his Families Package compared to the previous Government\u2019s package, which he repealed? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a21914405c042d483715c43f6d38412\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014I don\u2019t have to look at Mr Robertson for an answer to that, because the proposition is baseless, without any foundation. That member has had that debunked every day he\u2019s asked the question, but he keeps on asking it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d04d0fca7e894691984e122954a2d1d6\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Treasury\u2019s analysis that 1.7 million families\u2014that\u2019s 75 percent of New Zealand families\u2014will be worse off by $17 per week as a result of his families income package compared to the previous Government\u2019s package, which he repealed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d491bdb9ceb47d4af123949dc35e4e2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the July offensive that that member is seeking out to make sure is his salvation as a leader, by 18 July, is not going to work. We know the inner machinations of the National Party, and this doomsday critique of the Government is not going to be successful, because what the member has just said is false. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221997c382df55468d9ac7bc2d2f7a9543\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if he said \u201Cdoomsday scenarios from the Opposition\u201D, why did he say that dark clouds were coming when he formed the Government back\u2014what was it\u2014in November last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292a25c8bb73d4e6f8c9143150ccf6b24\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Because some of us can actually read into the future, around the corner. [Interruption] I\u2019m the only person in this House who predicted that Trump would win and Brexit would be successful\u2014not after the event. That was said back then because I had a sense that there was going to be a long, hot summer, that it would affect the economy\u2014and there\u2019s been a downturn. Then you\u2019ve got the dispute between Trump and the Chinese\u2014that may have an effect on our trade. So it\u2019s always wise to understand the people and surroundings you\u2019re dealing with. That\u2019s why I said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206fbaed7b4ef45bc96f69d3edd3ee477\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What, then, will be the growth figures for the next couple of years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ca3febdfa4f4c9aa38c3df899c93dee\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: As the IMF was at pains to point out, if it\u2019s going to be 3 percent for the next five years, it\u2019s just quite possible it\u2019ll be 3 percent every year, or thereabouts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edc7dd3d9d7546b4a502fa63215c1e6b\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for the Winston show!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ceadf41d4b44120863bac5ab7b086b8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No trouble; it\u2019s free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb2704ddc24e48d89acea87f048bd282\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to check that the Acting Prime Minister and the deputy leader of the National Party have finished. I\u2019d just like to make one other suggestion, and that is that when the leader is asking questions, if the deputy leader doesn\u2019t interject or wave her arms around, it means that people get a clearer understanding of what the leader is asking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002246ea8c4dee4343d6be3af519caa0561f\u0022\u003EKiwiBuild\u2014Eligibility\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00226bf92ccc36c24bea931c0b27b118319f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bf92ccc36c24bea931c0b27b118319f\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing and Urban Development: Is he confident his KiwiBuild policy will support those most in need of assistance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfa62067ef694c14839c8d5c41c32279\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfa62067ef694c14839c8d5c41c32279\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Housing and Urban Development: Yes, because the need is great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223168fa4948da482a9501bf3355d96237\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the income cap for KiwiBuild houses set at more than double the average household income, given his stated commitment to help younger generations and middle New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022109dfb72462945c28664c5422812a4ed\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Because the need is great, because the housing crisis has reached so far that those earning a combined household income of $180,000 are struggling to buy their first home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d03cdf09e174404997be1be8d2954bb\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: So does he consider it fair, then, that those on middle and lower household incomes will be competing with people like members of Parliament and senior public servants on an equal footing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f1925093632475dbad115b94c3dfba4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure if that would quite work for members of Parliament, given where their combined income might reach, but the truth is that a ballot is the fairest way of dealing with this. The member and I have both experienced the pain of losing out in a ballot, and I can assure her it gets better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206139d6e331942e1b978bb7781b1ebd9\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t his announcement of a KiwiBuild income cap of $180,000, which makes more than 90 percent of first-home buyers eligible for the 1,000 KiwiBuild homes he hopes to build this year, nothing more than an admission that he can\u2019t deliver affordable houses to lower and middle income families and has had to widen the market to try and ensure KiwiBuild doesn\u2019t become \u201CKiwiFlop\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2c52dfff2bb412c970b74298bbceb54\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely not. What it is an admission of is the scale of the housing crisis in New Zealand, that has seen even those in the sixth to ninth deciles be shut out of being first-home buyers. This is an ambitious programme. New Zealanders know that we\u2019re actually having a go at correcting the first-home buyer market, unlike the previous Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022931ce65ac3db4f8590edd952da6a2abf\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: How can he describe KiwiBuild as a home affordability scheme when a first-home buyer with hundreds of thousands of dollars in other assets, or a newly returned citizen who\u2019s lived overseas and paid no taxes here for maybe decades, qualify for a house on the same basis as a struggling local family?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a16ef860cb840eda1571097ab6c6022\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is not the policy of this Government to shut New Zealand citizens out from Government programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227408d73b15f14beb8a9509c652f3781b\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: So in what circumstances will a KiwiBuild house not go through the ballot but be sold directly to an eligible purchaser, as the materials released today say, despite his press release asserting that every eligible buyer will have an equal chance through the ballot system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287ff7f23639646109101a065ae913b1c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Any houses that go through the ballot will mean that people have an equal say. There is, as the member knows, the buying off the plans initiative that has been developed, and the full details of that will be released in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a35fbd6fc4b14ffeb8ecdf94addbdbb9\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m sorry, I did listen carefully. It was quite a specific question I asked of the circumstances in which the direct sales to purchasers, set out in material released, would apply. We heard about how the ballot works and buying off the plans, but not how that particular pathway for sales to individual purchasers would apply. It\u2019s in their materials; I just asked for clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c67c20c207ed4e07abb188c98196543d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought I understood, but I think if the Minister just repeated the final part of his answer, that will help clarify.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5ff2589b48a4c7cbbeb62e8721291b5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the final part of the answer was with reference to the buying off the plans initiative, and I said the final details of that and the overall process will be announced in the near future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c3769e3c22e470e8c81abaa35d1ca53\u0022\u003ESchool Buildings\u2014Auckland, New Classrooms\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u002294edc32ca91d483ca16958e9e9b51c41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294edc32ca91d483ca16958e9e9b51c41\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What investment in new classrooms for Auckland has the Government announced today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00224c3562bfb33e4837942a8de46670f34a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c3562bfb33e4837942a8de46670f34a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Today, I announced $49 million for a new primary school and additional classrooms for two other primary schools in Auckland. It\u2019s one of our fastest-growing areas, and this Government is committed to making sure there are enough classrooms that are fit for purpose to keep pace with population growth. The funding announced today is part of a $332 million investment in school property in Budget 2018.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228677a1d9fc404c44be238e1bf9e2c3d6\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: How many additional students will benefit from the $49 million for new classrooms in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab78076625ce457b941660b17ef458ad\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Twelve hundred students in total will be accommodated from today\u2019s announcement. This includes spaces for 350 students in the rebuild and expansion of Paerata Primary School, 240 students by expanding Waterview Primary School, and 650 students in a brand new school for Scott Point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c925afd6a8af4ab1bbb49dd9adbf33b4\u0022\u003EChildren in State Care\u2014Historical Abuse, Compensation for Serious Offenders\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022679459e0cf51431ab1203d9e66e842a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022679459e0cf51431ab1203d9e66e842a5\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: What recent decisions and actions has the Government taken about high tariff offenders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00229698e1901c46422f9d6264bc02a9463b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229698e1901c46422f9d6264bc02a9463b\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E On the advice of the Ministry of Social Development and the Department of Corrections, Minister Davis and myself agreed that compensation claims to serious offenders, including those arising from historical abuse in State care, should be progressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022632eb3dfaa6748d68c7d803378146510\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What steps has the Minister taken to ensure no further rapes, murders, assaults are committed by these offenders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257cb1b3c1e8445e0a7c352b3ff2b9491\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think I have responsibility for the high-tariff offenders\u2019 offences. My role and responsibility lie with compensation for those who have been victims of abuse in State care, and there are two very separate things going on here that I think that member needs to be very clear about rather than trying to run them together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2817f59850e4073bd77cbc5cea83f39\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What does she say to the parents of Natasha Hayden, who was murdered in 2005, when they ask, and I quote, \u201CWhat about the life of the people they\u2019ve killed or molested. What do they get?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219fc06af10ed43319ec9e0c6b0144f13\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I want to make it very clear that everybody in this House, from every political party, empathises with victims of crime, particularly the ones who have suffered under horrific crimes, as that member has pointed out. But there are two separate matters here that we are talking about: one is the crime, and these people are not getting compensated for their crime. The issue that we\u2019re talking about here, where the compensation is going, is to where people have been assaulted or abused in State care as children. We have a legal obligation to compensate them if they are found to have their case proven, and as a Government we are committed to abiding by the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e03bc9fd595f4d118a150a4aa6967b23\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What confidence can the public have that these offenders that have recently received large payments from the Ministry of Social Development, on that Minister\u2019s instruction, won\u2019t continue to create more victims of crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022344424d95c954866a7b7d818f3d19de8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is not an area the Minister has responsibility for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224627c55a163d4d2f896a322f7c7ced0d\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What measures has the Minister taken to ensure that funds that are given to New Zealand\u2019s worst offenders will be used appropriately and won\u2019t be used to commit further crime and create more victims?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022774b9bb9a7f444faaa850555396ecd74\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Every action that this Government has undertaken is within the law. I do need to make the point that National has also always supported compensating these prisoners, so let\u2019s make that clear. However, National wanted restrictions, but all the advice that they were given whilst in Government was that the law wouldn\u2019t allow them to achieve what they wanted. Their plan was a failure. This Government is abiding by the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002205013699f6d9468a9717e122323ebf4d\u0022\u003EHealth Services\u2014Counties Manukau District Health Board Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022574984f11357407eba2bf80b263cad47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022574984f11357407eba2bf80b263cad47\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2cbe6e0c1db43f486c2b53e851937ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2cbe6e0c1db43f486c2b53e851937ff\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Louise Upston, you have one of your own members asking a question, and continuing a debate when that happens is not a good thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022eafcb41fa6d941728b37119f2c3ceef8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eafcb41fa6d941728b37119f2c3ceef8\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by the answer \u201Cyes, absolutely\u201D given on his behalf yesterday when I asked him, \u201CDo Ministers, including him, have any responsibility to ensure conflicts of interest are appropriately managed by the chief executive of the department that reports to them, when that chief executive was involved in a district health board that was under review and an audit was being provided to that individual as Director-General of Health\u201D; if so, what action has he taken to ensure all conflicts regarding the Beattie Varley review into the Counties Manukau DHB were appropriately managed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8e79e56970e4b3eb853339e662e7e57\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have been warned that this, as with a supplementary later, is going to be longer than might normally be allowed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee5ba4c830334e369ab35b95a5dbaf9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee5ba4c830334e369ab35b95a5dbaf9e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The member\u2019s question assumes that there was a conflict to be managed. As the member heard in the House yesterday, my office has been advised that the substance of the draft review does not cover the period of time the previous acting director-general spent as chief executive of Counties Manukau District Health Board (DHB). As the member is fully aware, the State Services Commission is looking into the matters that member has raised in this House. If the member has any evidence to back up his claims, I urge him to provide it to the commissioner, as he has been requested to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e75bbe3a10264a47bd8ad288dd90721e\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: When he confirmed, on 16 December, that Beattie Varley were to proceed with the interview process, was he aware that part of Beattie Varley\u2019s terms of reference was to review the remuneration and additional allowances of a former DHB senior executive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f189bff50fb343ee82fe510d6b837b00\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have not seen a draft of that review. I have been assured by officials that there is an appropriate process in place and that they will report back to me at the appropriate time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298507211fec24092bf1c0387cb0e87d7\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: When he confirmed, on 16 December, that interviews were to take place, did he apprise himself of the fact that remuneration and additional allowances were part of the audit that was being reviewed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235b69261a5fa4b6b93e64c8f36ac612a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I was assured by officials that an appropriate process was in place. I don\u2019t see it as the role of the Minister to interfere in an appropriate process, and so I did not interfere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe70d83c14424ed0a6fe4766e1c05823\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Did he read the memo to him, dated 15 December 2017, from Dr Lester Levy, which specifically referenced inappropriate activity around the \u201Cauthorisation of salary increases, allowances, and benefits\u201D, which were the subject of the audit that was being reviewed by Beattie Varley? Did he read the memo?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffc39c6a457e42c49468b8bc8fcc4bfd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The member should not be playing politics while this matter is being looked into by the State Services Commission. If he has any evidence to back up his allegations, he should provide it to the commission, as he has been requested to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228135b303a5c2462d869908e7a4ccea20\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked if he read a memo. I gave the date of the memo and the author of the memo and some subject matter of the memo. He didn\u2019t address anything to do with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022511f108f77c5454a948355ab35f3e167\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And it wasn\u2019t answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccede30a6e28450292f61f57951589d7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t recall the exact contents of that memo. I tend to read the memos that come through my office, and I am aware that there have been allegations of financial mismanagement at the Counties Manukau DHB. I\u2019ve also been assured by officials that an appropriate process is in place to work through those allegations and that they will report back to me at an appropriate point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022412ac3410fc943a8bf93ddaa9c614f60\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Was he aware that the internal DHB audit being reviewed by Beattie Varley audited, in part, transactions dating back to 1999, a time period covered by Stephen McKernan as CEO?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbef069f4e0e4c64a2586a0f6f1558d7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As the member heard in the House yesterday, my office has been advised that the substance of the draft review does not cover the period of time the previous acting director-general spent as chief executive of Counties Manukau DHB.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022138b853c4354429b8b7eebf7a01b569c\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister, when he\u2019s learnt about the Beattie Varley review\u2014and, according to answers given yesterday on his behalf, he\u2019s confirmed an interview process was to proceed\u2014taken any steps to learn about the audit, understand what issues were involved, and ensure all conflicts of interest were managed appropriately, given the time period dated back to when the acting director-general was the CEO of that district health board?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cde10c0dea944ee28e2aa341c9d3d445\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I contest that. My office has been advised that the substance of the draft review does not cover the period of time the previous acting director-general spent as chief executive of Counties Manukau DHB. If the member has any evidence to back up his claims, I urge him to provide it to the commissioner, as he has been requested to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268e451238a30429d8fec6cc6446105da\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a memo to the Minister of Health from Dr Lester Levy regarding financial issues at Counties Manukau DHB, dated 15 December 2017.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228163abc73a7d41b9b3798de904eeaf33\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that being tabled? There appears to be none. It may be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da6d7cfff5ca43198b3ce74141c33be7\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document which has been redacted to remove the name of a senior executive, subject to review. The title of this document is Salary and Allowance Validation, as part of investigation notes from a regional internal audit, dated 7 May 2017.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249b5d8b756df49f88732ca06d7f9c67c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that document being tabled? There appears to be none. It may be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258a1e9f9113042f898468303ce2efbb1\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for the document I just tabled, entitled Salary and Allowance Validation to be published under the authority of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221e09efa3ffa4112b0283dcb9f3cd003\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is, in my understanding, a matter for me or a matter for standard arrangements. I want to make absolutely clear that documents worked in a proper manner get the protection of the House with regard to matters of defamation. What I\u2019m not prepared to have is to have the Clerk put in a position of publishing a document as a result of this House taking a decision to publish a document unseen, which might subject the Clerk to defamation, from which he is not protected by the privilege of the House. So the answer to that is I\u2019m not going to put that question to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2ee9fdb00f641a88c4a290939966156\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I did take steps to investigate this matter yesterday. It is my understanding that if the House grants leave for a document to be published under the authority of the House, then privilege does cover that document and the Clerk of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282e4c7792a4f4f1f88db11b6b27a956d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: My suggestion on this one is that the document is tabled and we take a decision tomorrow\u2014when members have been able to see it and I have been able to consider the privilege matter carefully\u2014as to whether or not it should be published. Do members have a problem with that? Normally, you\u2019d stand up, rather than put your hand up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f126360253d9403c938e85b744239075\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t want to be knocked down again, Mr Speaker. Could I ask you to give consideration, if not publishing under the authority of the House, to giving this document to the State Services Commissioner? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea61d992ca5a45d9a99813341ab014c4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c60364204002404c97105d6324abd9d1\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234304681355b4a7a927021bcac8acac5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member will resume his seat. As a former Minister of State Services, I know where the place is. Something could be delivered to the State Services Commissioner. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s the role of this House to privilege that member with documents being given to the State Services Commissioner. If the member has documents that he thinks the State Services Commissioner should have\u2014[Interruption] Order! Grant Robertson will withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9a28660ef0941f3be97da9c79e76591\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227932c363998743be9e16a1f380dfca78\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member has documents that he thinks the State Services Commissioner should have, he should give them to him directly. If something has been tabled in the House and we take a decision to publish it tomorrow, then it will in that way be available to the State Services Commissioner. But can I just say that I don\u2019t want, without proper notice, this House being used to protect members in matters which might otherwise be defamatory, except as has normally been the case with debates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295fc983a7b584f36a50ba5de589b65c6\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, are we in some difficulty now, though, because the House has considered\u2014has the House considered the leave? I think it has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb2c48120a9b477f80506a884c397cba\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think we\u2019ve got\u2014it\u2019s tabled, but that\u2019s not published. If the Clerk takes a decision around the further\u2014where it goes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206d1ab0f1cca46e8b24b6fc894afe5e7\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Is a tabled document not public? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220970b9bf958c4cfb9b268a0e3f7386ac\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The short answer to that is it\u2019s certainly not published. It\u2019s the publication that causes the defamation, which is my understanding, although I know that there are people sitting not far away from the member who might have a better understanding than I do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229681095a74fc4ec1b943dd15456b5bce\u0022\u003EHon Christopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: $500 an hour, like Winston. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229335f842e1564db7b0b153cecb5ac510\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: $5,000 an hour, I thought the member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229159f483293a41c382299d09b39e8996\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I think it\u2019s a relatively important point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e23866dc7cf47d6b32cd0470fe26127\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a very important point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218630e5fa26b4e0b9006bdbb6d871ce0\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and it\u2019s one that might need a little bit more consideration, because as I understand it, once a paper or anything gets tabled in the House, it becomes publicly available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c764ff904e1b4152adc6c7c911614134\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d5a7579fb834921959215936e4f1e5a\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No one can\u2014people can\u2019t go into the Bills Office and ask for it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe3b5384e71e49c3b7b7dfeb9fb54178\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just make that point absolutely clear. It has been my experience that Clerks of the House have taken decisions not to make publicly available documents that have been tabled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251bc68befd1e40c483ca23b95272d633\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: And is that the case here? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257ea874661d546118519359a9c25b8ed\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c6cb5b86cef4a7eb45f4febe62e75f9\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, I think the sensitivity here is clearly that the member who has just sought the leave of the House to table it does not want to put himself in a position where he can be muzzled by some legal action. Quite clearly, he has tried to do something that he believes\u2014and I certainly believe\u2014is in the public interest, but it would be unfortunate if in trying to do that, the procedures of the House put him into a position of some difficulty with some potential legal action being brought against him, which could see at least a muzzling of this issue for a time and a closure of any discussion of it for a time. We\u2019d like to know that the process that you\u2019ve outlined, which is that it is tabled today and then considered for publication tomorrow, which would grant the member a certain amount of\u2014well, it would grant privilege. Can we just make sure that in the intervening 24 hours, it\u2019s not going to be a problem? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9ed03a2355b43128b283345dec62b6b\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c79b3d584024dee8017c8cff870cd14\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I want to deal with\u2014I think there are two matters that are here that I want to deal with. The first one is to make it absolutely clear that the member tabling a document here is protected by the privilege of the House, but the further circulation by any person is not protected. I will refer members to Speakers\u2019 ruling 146/1. I\u2019m not going to read the whole thing out, but I\u2019ll read out the important part of it: \u201CTherefore, the Clerk\u2019s Office will not make a document tabled by leave available, other than to members, where it contains material that is known to be the subject of a court suppression order; the purpose of which is clearly and primarily to defame; that is pornographic; or that is confidential to a select committee. Ideally, the House would not allow such documents to be tabled by leave in the first place. If they are, the member has the option of clarifying the status of the document in order that the Clerk\u2019s Office may safely release it, or the member can take responsibility for its release himself or herself.\u201D\u2014146/1. All right. Mr Hipkins, did you have another point of order? OK. I think we\u2019ve\u2014and does the member have any further supplementaries? Right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002252aad7547884400eac6155cd48879dde\u0022\u003EConsumer Credit\u2014Review of Lending Practices\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022 data-id=\u0022eea8fdb3dfd74f6cb946cbd946d94f84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eea8fdb3dfd74f6cb946cbd946d94f84\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE (Labour\u2014Rongotai)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: What is the Government doing to address predatory lending practices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002236419164fcbd4899b414b7ce0b840fd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236419164fcbd4899b414b7ce0b840fd8\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, I released a discussion paper outlining findings from the review of the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act (CCCFA). The Government is looking at measures to protect consumers, including a cap on interest rates and fees, strengthening enforcement and penalties for irresponsible lending, and introducing more prescriptive requirements for affordability assessments and advertising. These predatory practices, often targeted at the most vulnerable, are trapping families in high-stress debt spirals that are causing harm and distress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3865c75a3c145ba8e7de9ed338cc217\u0022\u003EPaul Eagle\u003C/span\u003E: What evidence has he heard that suggests the 2015 amendment to the CCCFA did not go far enough?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022683d33b7a57b49b386526b6ea4c7e1ee\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: The review confirmed what I\u2019ve heard across New Zealand, that widespread levels of inappropriate lending, including lenders charging up to 800 percent annual interest, offering loans that are clearly unaffordable, and lashing people with huge penalties and fees, has continued. I have heard from people facing this insidious and crippling debt, from budget advisors and social agencies doing what they can to help, and from across the financial sector. Without exception, there has been acknowledgement that the 2015 reforms did not go far enough, and they support this Government\u2019s action to stop these predatory practices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022774a9f7a495543e4891a94d157132b35\u0022\u003EPaul Eagle\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps the Government will be taking in credit reform?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5cb01c1ab35467ab5411204e96bf0a0\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: Public consultation on the discussion paper is open until 1 August, and I urge anyone who has been affected by predatory lending or debt collection practices to have their say. I also want lenders in the financial sector to submit. We do not plan to stop people lending, so we do want to hear how we can both keep people safe in borrowing and support honest business. The Government will be looking to make policy decisions later this year to finally address these practices that have gone unchallenged for far too long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002288524d7ef31e4901a50868dc71de3277\u0022\u003EBusiness Confidence\u2014Reliability and Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00226bd180f322814bb0a62ebc8a52f904d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bd180f322814bb0a62ebc8a52f904d2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: Does he still stand by his statement to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee that business confidence surveys are \u201Cjunk\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022707a85c7a36248f09134bf79e4452f4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022707a85c7a36248f09134bf79e4452f4f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E No, because the member is misquoting me. I was referring to the correlation of the ANZ Business Outlook survey to GDP. The ANZ business confidence headline measure is a poor predictor of economic growth. I stand by that view, because the survey has just a 20 percent correlation with economic growth since 2000\u2014that\u2019s close to two decades of data. Other data with greater merit for forecasting economic growth include consumer confidence and employee confidence, and I was even told on the way to the House today that the number of points conceded by the Canterbury Crusaders in each season in Super Rugby since 1996 has a stronger correlation to economic growth than the ANZ survey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274818b083ba14de1a33410a868f7abd5\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document which is a transcript of the Estimates hearing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccdca581515c4c038fcc64e54ffb5b37\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So is the member seeking to\u2014now, I just want to\u2014is it a corrected transcript?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1b78fc42bb34f8e8fd5993500c7749c\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s uncorrected, this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022600e38c77e4d4b13891e2732803a5a66\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All right. Is there any objection to that document, which would normally be available when the committee reports, being available now? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022655bdfd61602466092400b11e6d03cba\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think the opinions of business leaders matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220177cf22200f46149f91dc189b8afcd4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. And, for example, I share the concern of some businesses about rising protectionism. It\u2019s why we\u2019re pursuing an ambitious trade agenda to lift exports and export growth, but I would note that the problem with using confidence surveys rather than real economic data is that some of the surveys significantly understate growth prospects under Labour-led Governments while overstating growth prospects under National Governments. That is a proven fact, not an opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212a8c573ec6245b4a075cb09db8776bf\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Is he saying that the opinions of business leaders as expressed in business confidence surveys are junk\u2014exactly what he did say\u2014or they matter; which is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3e4fc467e4d4b098a770c847ee723b8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I said that the particular measure that I spoke of, which was the ANZ one that I referred to in the first answer to the primary question, was junk, because it is junk as far as it is to be seen as a predictor of economic growth, which is what the member presents it as.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229309db9dd9eb4490b7a0be7472c0efd6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m asking you to advise us as to what the member should do who is told by another member, Mr Goldsmith, that he wishes to table a document, believing that he\u2019s going to prove or otherwise that the Minister did make the statement, and when it\u2019s consented to, which we have done, then doesn\u2019t use the transcript that he has from the select committee but carries on as before. Mr Parker said, \u201CI didn\u2019t say that.\u201D and when we consented to him to table that document, we either want to hear the proof that he was right or that he was wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a88bf2d5a1a74563bcad282d83e13277\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has until midnight\u2014or the end of the sitting time at least today to table the document. Mr Parker did not indicate that he did not use that word. [Interruption] Mr Parker did not indicate that he did not use that word. He indicated that the circumstances in which it was used differed from the way that had been alleged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc80de39daae4b4ebc98fdb5cc4b2162\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to read the transcript.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022096dfa3f3c594dec99033ecac981ad17\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226524fcefd2344b9a69d7cd550c297fc\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he interpret the Minister of Finance\u2019s statement this morning on Radio New Zealand, \u201CI take all business surveys seriously\u201D as a rebuke or as a belated effort to repair the Government\u2019s relationships with business after his \u201Cjunk\u201D comments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d41962145b14c2ca9d3f25e173e69d0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t. I listened to that interview and I thought the Minister of Finance handled it very well, and made the points\u2014not that he needed my affirmation, but he made similar points to those which I\u2019ve already made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb5d002382f64824bd35aec30b294244\u0022\u003ETamati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: What correlation is there between increased confidence in the ANZ Business Outlook survey and exports declining as a percentage of GDP?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255e4682d61e34697b9d0bb08abfa3c78\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s interesting to note the correlation between increasing confidence in the ANZ business confidence survey and falling exports as a percentage of GDP under the last Government. Despite setting a target of raising exports from 30 percent to 40 percent of GDP, the last Government let exports fall to 27 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b9b475bd7464b98a143130eb84be3db\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume his seat. This is in exactly the area that we\u2019ve discussed with the Acting Prime Minister recently, and I\u2019m going to protect him the way that I\u2019ve protected other Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220922e88bf30417a9f214d72de36a638\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he rate as junk the ANZ\u2019s conclusion this morning, regarding the fall in job ads by 1.2 percent over the quarter, that, \u201CRecent deterioration in business expectations of activity and hiring intentions appear to be flowing through into job ads.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f582f3717da141d9b61f8cf1bebdd2b3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister of Finance just brought to my attention, they\u2019re up year on year, and I also note that we\u2019ve got low unemployment, we\u2019ve got dropping unemployment, we\u2019ve got economic growth, we\u2019ve got a Budget surplus, and we\u2019ve got a report from the IMF that says that the prospects are very good. I suggest that the member stop trying to talk down the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e412088b2194c14b57f08d5a5e20331\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Acting Prime Minister\u2019s comments today in a Politik article in relation to business confidence, \u201CWe said on the night of going into coalition with Labour that there was going to be a possible blip on the horizon because [of] all those years of slow growth, but [it\u2019s] getting better \u2026 It\u2019s almost inevitable. You can see it in the Bible for goodness sake.\u201D\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1affa17ea564ce4ba13d9f7597a13cd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014order! Sorry, I think the technicians thought the member had finished. So the member can continue from after the quote, but get to the end of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229812440757c546d3b57855b549daa57b\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014and if so, does he have any insight into how the Bible can explain the current low levels of business confidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273fd3452cdaf4aa195cdf22bdbbae6ea\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Whilst I went to a youth group as a child, I am an atheist. Therefore, I don\u2019t pretend to be a current expert on the Bible. But, in respect of the sentiments other than those biblical, I absolutely agree with him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3286d2741564f2887cb7c06e711a1d0\u0022\u003EEducation\u2014Charter Schools, NCEA, and Primary Teachers\u2019 Industrial Action\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u002253c8befa3b1640aab0d96e5a6a8ffbb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253c8befa3b1640aab0d96e5a6a8ffbb3\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does he stand by his statements and actions regarding students and teachers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022020e4cdeb1114d818a075469efd99b1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022020e4cdeb1114d818a075469efd99b1e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1ab661d33764ce2ae608ce8ea7616c2\u0022\u003EHon Nikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that he will work in a way that respects and engages iwi given Sir Toby Curtis\u2019 statement today: \u201CIf the Minister hasn\u2019t gone to the schools to talk to the people in the schools, if the Minister hasn\u2019t gone and spoken to the parents, if the ministry hasn\u2019t gone to the schools and talked properly to the teachers, if the ministry hasn\u2019t done their job properly, I\u2019m left with no other view than that this is a process of bullying that we have never had or experienced in this country.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6da525640f248e2ad3861fbfd7153ee\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question: yes, absolutely, because this Government believes that M\u0101ori students, regardless of where they\u2019re going to school, are entitled to a world-class education so that they can fulfil their full potential. Where I differ from the quotation of the member\u2014I don\u2019t think M\u0101ori students should have to leave the public education system in order to get the quality of education they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cac3b307eaa34c71ad9db89252e28428\u0022\u003EHon Nikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: Will he commit to asking the Education and Workforce Committee to urgently take out provisions from the Education Amendment Bill that remove the partnership school model in light of the claim in front of the Waitangi Tribunal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3b4408350324ff4b951e7ed06be6f9a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227024cf5bbbe1449baab06bd96c5a797d\u0022\u003EHon Nikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Sir Toby Curtis, who, when asked about what he would want to say to him and the Prime Minister regarding partnership schools, said that \u201Cthis is a situation that calls for a bit of aroha\u201D; and where is the love for these students that he won\u2019t even bother visiting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022082710e27fde4438b982d274513a9f96\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do agree with the member that, in fact, in all of the decisions we make about education we should show a little bit of aroha, and I am currently considering the applications of the existing charter schools to become State schools, and I am not going to make comment on that while that process is ongoing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228339e77ebff94c7fbdd8ed257a9297db\u0022\u003EHon Nikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: Will he take responsibility for his actions and start listening given a large group of principals have given him a \u201Cfail\u201D mark on NCEA, primary teachers are striking for the first time in 24 years, and there is a claim lodged in the Waitangi Tribunal alleging multiple breaches by him and the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc63326030e24b159a8559ffd39a1fb0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll answer all three of those things. But, first, this Government is going to great lengths to listen to all New Zealanders\u2019 views when it comes to education, and we keep being criticised by the Opposition for doing so, who seem to alternate between saying we\u2019re consulting too much and alternating between saying we\u2019re not consulting enough. With regard to the threat of strike action by the primary teachers, this Government is not responsible for the current pay and conditions that the teachers are dissatisfied with. All of those agreements were reached under the previous Government. With regard to charter schools, this Government\u2019s position on charter schools has been very clear from the beginning. And, with regard to the NCEA, we are listening to everyone with regard to the NCEA. I have spoken to some of the principals who have been signatories to that advertisement that appeared in the newspaper and they made it very clear to me their view, to almost directly quote one of the principals who I spoke to, that the principals should have been consulted first, they should have come up with the recommendations, the Government should have given them feedback on that, and then the principals should have made the decision. The Government disagrees with that approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc9b5f0b3dc0461585f990974fa826f4\u0022\u003EAnimal Welfare\u2014Animal Abuse in Farming Sector\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u00223a40ab04ac93469a92584691644fc496\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a40ab04ac93469a92584691644fc496\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Agriculture: What extra steps, if any, are MPI taking to ensure animal abuse in the farming sector is identified and addressed effectively and without delay, following the footage released over the last week by SAFE and Farmwatch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u00222c85336deced4c8f966339095525916b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c85336deced4c8f966339095525916b\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E The video footage pertaining to the Northland farmer released by Save Animals from Exploitation (SAFE) and Farmwatch is currently being investigated by the Ministry of Primary Industries (MPI). Last week, I announced by Framework for Action on Animal Welfare in New Zealand. It identifies four pillars: an independent voice in animal welfare; transparency and inclusive decision-making; strengthening codes across all uses of animals, ensuring they set high standards and underpinned by effective monitoring and enforcement; and capacity-building to ensure that people have the skills and capacity to meet animal welfare standards. I am engaging with the Chief Executives Forum so they are clear on my expectations that they will provide industry leadership, as well as being involved in the development of the framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddb80d975198498fa2f79fe2e19ff2c9\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that this case highlights the need to establish an independent commissioner for animals to promote oversight of welfare issues and to be a voice for animals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6b0564c637f4f3f83b10ca79e0fdd9a\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: Since becoming the Minister responsible for animal welfare, I have heard many views on animal welfare calling for an independent voice for animal welfare, including at my recent animal advocates hui in June. My framework for action outlines the need for an independent voice for animal welfare to ensure advice on animal welfare is future thinking, timely, trusted, and well-informed. As part of this, Cabinet will consider the possibility of establishing an independent voice such as an animal welfare commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c4c4b9fbcce47848962ca15805f2027\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Will she consider amending the law to allow CCTV surveillance on farms and slaughterhouses, as is happening in France, the UK, and Israel, or promote the use of cameras with landowner permission, as is currently allowed under the law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275167a9ea466459eb34adf376d52fb53\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: At present, the current legislation does not allow MPI or any other law enforcement agency to trespass and install covert cameras on private property for any offence under the Animal Welfare Act 1999. There is currently no Government policy on the use of permitted cameras on farms, but my expectation is for the industry to step up and ensure there is support to identify animal welfare issues, and that the appropriate avenues to report such issues are available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022901635b760c7431dac3e14d28c2da01d\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Will she consider whistleblowing protections for workers who make complaints about animal abuse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b9591d516ca4a658b5f626cb0c78fec\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: There are confidential hotlines for farmers and workers who can provide information on potential animal welfare offences. The Protected Disclosures Act exists to encourage employees and contractors to report serious wrongdoing, including criminal offending in the workplace, and provide protection to whistle-blowers. In the case of potential animal cruelty, contractors and employees on farms should report this immediately to MPI as the appropriate authority to investigate. My expectation is industries support those farmers they represent at the farm gate in understanding what the rights and avenues for reporting animal welfare issues are. My animal welfare framework for action will address these situations further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca73aea3bd96421692cd4f72a44d1e54\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Will she request a ramp up of random and repeat inspections for farms subject to complaints?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2472f2232524ff9aad1f190c7ebd6c4\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m informed by MPI there are currently 183 active investigations under way involving animal welfare, with 23 animal welfare inspectors across New Zealand, 4.9 million milking cows alone, with 14 million hectares of farmland in New Zealand to cover. I will assure, through my framework, the capacity for effective and timely enforcement is accounted for. This work is currently being developed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022109f0656b5fd40788419c119ff1a13e0\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that New Zealand shouldn\u2019t be reliant on animal welfare groups such as SAFE and Farmwatch to gather evidence on animal abuses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffce2f2dedeb4c308dbcce6077874c77\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: Cruelty to animals is not accepted by any New Zealander across the country. I want to thank those animal advocate groups who have stepped up, but like I said in my former answers, industry also has to play its role to ensure that no animal cruelty is allowed on any of our farms, in our homes, or wherever we have animals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c37bb16aeeb64edbbe4ee0b3f8f99a2f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the member, I have been advised that there\u2019s been a fire alarm in the Beehive, and, as a result of that, that building is currently being evacuated. I want to indicate that I\u2019m also advised that there is no indication yet of there actually being a fire, but can I make a suggestion to members who would normally go back that way that they might be entertained and stay for at least the first part of the general debate until that matter is clarified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c47452f89c58422f9b68cd8028041c3e\u0022\u003EOverseas Ownership of New Zealand Property\u2014Exemption for Te \u0100rai Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u002272612ed4f2e044c381ffb6ded800e603\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272612ed4f2e044c381ffb6ded800e603\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Finance: Does he believe his conduct in respect of the proposed exemption for the Te \u0100rai property development from the Overseas Investment Amendment Bill meets the standards expected of a competent Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00228804d58f981d4aaba5e2d9fae4d54a34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228804d58f981d4aaba5e2d9fae4d54a34\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and again I note for the benefit of the member that it is the Prime Minister that is responsible for assessing whether my conduct meets the standards expected of a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c65a78ee2d3b4d119d9d497eb747c09a\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Is the following version of events in respect of Te \u0100rai correct, and, if not, which part is incorrect? Sometime in January, shortly after the tangi of Russell Kemp, Shane Jones met with John Darby, Ric Kayne, and iwi. Then, sometime after that meeting, he discussed an exemption for Te \u0100rai with Shane Jones and Kelvin Davis\u2014and that neither man made any mention of Ric Kayne or John Darby being involved in the development, just mentioning the iwi. Then on 19 March, he received official Treasury advice, which, for the first time, informed him of the interests of non-iwi developers in the land, and which opposed allowing an exemption for Te \u0100rai. And then, three days later, not having taken steps to verify the actual extent of iwi ownership in the land, he recommended an exemption for Te \u0100rai to a Cabinet committee, and this was formally approved by Cabinet on 3 April?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c061ea5304684be9946678f5253bbade\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, and it\u2019s inaccurate in a number of ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b9f20b6ae6a4770bb40edc9a6edc97c\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Does he consider it to be an acceptable standard of conduct for a Minister to take a paper to Cabinet recommending land be exempted from the laws of New Zealand due its particular ownership, without knowing the details of the ownership of that land?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022818c57d256d64aa9b216d5dbefcab223\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: In general terms, yes. I have admitted as a matter of detail that it would have been better if we had more information as to the beneficial ownership of some of the lots. I have noted to the House previously, however, that the golf course, the forestry land, the sand mine areas of more than five hectares, and other areas of sensitive land would not have been affected by the exemption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f39ebe415859436eb78f1819d2363a4b\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he include former Ng\u0101ti Manuhiri land in the proposed exemption to the bill, that he has repeatedly claimed was only made to protect Treaty settlement assets, given that Ng\u0101ti Manuhiri no longer own the land and haven\u2019t owned it for several years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a5e9d2c83d46e3987fb873119b110f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve released the Treasury advice to me and the Cabinet paper. It is clear that the motivation for this was the concern about the diminution in value of the iwi assets. There was concern amongst Treasury and other advisers, including Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, that we not create a precedent that said that there wasn\u2019t an article 1 right for the Crown to do as we have done, that we emphasise that it was being done in the interests of fairness, essentially, and that\u2019s what we did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022937eaba0750d421da00380a4eb152066\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can I just seek to clarify? The Minister referenced then releasing the Treasury advice, which hasn\u2019t to date been released. Is he, in that answer, therefore now releasing that information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ffef099ba194db39df6f27a75544ac1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: That information was released yesterday, and it\u2019s been available to the member since then. Indeed, it\u2019s been released in its totality and there weren\u2019t even redactions made in respect of legal advice for which we could have claimed privilege.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215662498ecc14a1483a98258fb99f3a8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell us as to what reports he has seen that say that the people behind the primary question on the Te \u0100rai exception are Steven Joyce, Sir John Key, Michelle Boag, and Wayne Eagleson, who made the submission in the first place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9cf2f7139e64653b67ef031bb1fab51\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen those reports. It is also true that I made my decision on the basis of the documentary record and my involvement in it, and I think that the documents show consistency with the answers that I have given in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4c2d8928d5f4de7b87c781be10a20ff\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Did any member of his ministerial office have any written or oral communication with any member of the lobbying firm Thompson Lewis about the Te \u0100rai development, and whether during or after the time a principle of that firm was engaged as the Prime Minister\u2019s chief of staff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022712f63bfead7413492a9414f69347fea\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The only correspondence that I\u2019m aware of was that there was an unsolicited email, which copied submissions at two different stages to my office, to my parliamentary email. That email wasn\u2019t brought to my attention or responded to by me or anyone else in my office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f4bcdd1c5c94558ae8c2ed2e9deedaf\u0022\u003EPolice\u2014Appointment of Deputy Commissioner of Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002249eb5526b9524106a2d2340b254d0b93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249eb5526b9524106a2d2340b254d0b93\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Was he told of the comments made by Wally Haumaha to the 2004 Operation Austin inquiry that Louise Nicholas\u2019 allegations were \u201Cnonsense\u201D and that \u201Cnothing really happened and we have to stick together\u201D during the appointment process for Mr Haumaha as Deputy Commissioner of Police; if not, when did he first learn about those comments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002266bf2b98055e480c8cec7cfc2fcfdfb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266bf2b98055e480c8cec7cfc2fcfdfb6\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Acting Minister of Police)\u003C/span\u003E In relation to the first part of the question, no. In relation to the second part of the question, the Hon Stuart Nash was told on Thursday, 28 June.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b50a95e2c9f414c9628258eee054c9b\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What did he mean this morning when he said on Newstalk ZB, \u201CTo be honest, I probably would have done things differently. I would have undertaken a bit of due diligence myself, made a couple of calls and had a couple of discussions with a few key people?\u201D; and does that mean that he would not have appointed Mr Haumaha if he was aware of the comments made by him in relation to Operation Austin?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6ba0b4db8f24c7e89e554b90732072c\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Those were questions that the Hon Stuart Nash made in response to\u2014so they were answers in response to questions asked of the Hon Stuart Nash. In any event, the Government has commissioned an independent inquiry into this matter, and it is not in the public interest for me to provide any further response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cc09836073e4b1e9cd39119abe568bb\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: How was he not aware of the comments made by Mr Haumaha, when Louise Nicholas raised concerns a year ago with police that his appointment as assistant commissioner would, in her words, \u201Ccome back to bite police in the arse\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e347ebd5694248a084bf1fcbbf4e51bf\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, in response to the primary question, the Hon Stuart Nash was told of the specifics of the comments attributed to Mr Haumaha on 28 June; that is, last Thursday. The matter is now the subject of an independent Government inquiry and it\u2019s not in the public interest for me to comment any further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d10ba1a7251f4e7da4b64590d1633ff4\u0022\u003EVirginia Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What actions has the police undertaken to change police culture since Operation Austin and the inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d5506180b044cec9995714750c4e184\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Police is now a fundamentally better organisation than the one described by the commission of inquiry in 2007. As Dame Margaret Bazley herself has said, the police has made a colossal change. Over the last 10 years, under the current and previous commissioners, women now make up 50 percent of district commanders, and they are increasingly entering senior ranks. The police can always do better and that\u2019s why we\u2019re pushing for greater diversity amongst the force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d8561dc90ee47e3ac2a8047c28b0e3e\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Rt Hon Winston Peters disclose to him during the appointment process of Mr Haumaha as Deputy Commissioner that he was a former New Zealand First candidate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c89ac30cf1f842538336838994cc78b5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We have provided all the evidence that that statement is not correct. He can go to the Electoral Commission if he likes. He can get the evidence but not come down here and, like the rest of his questions, just repeat baseless innuendo which is false. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225009da6fac3d49059acacb491f32a016\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am prepared to rule, and that is that there is again something which is longstanding but often ignored, and that is that when statements are made, they should be authenticated. Now, we have had in this House a very clear statement to the contrary from a member without parliamentary responsibility but with responsibility as a party leader on that matter. So I am ruling the question out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022027fe50f5c8e4fdb8b22843938185f6d\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Doesn\u2019t the essence of what you\u2019ve just ruled mean that Mr Peters should in fact authenticate the claim he makes that the man was not a candidate? When we have relied on, firstly, a local newspaper celebrating his success as being appointed New Zealand First\u2019s candidate, which was only withdrawn\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281386b111d8b433e9d7a4d83b40c668b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, and subsequent to that we\u2019ve had a very clear statement from the Acting Prime Minister that the newspaper article was inaccurate. We\u2019ve had the word of the member, which, while it was not done in a formal setting like a primary answer, must be taken. Unless the member has any evidence to the contrary\u2014and I think evidence about who are candidates and who are not candidates is very easily obtained\u2014then I\u2019m going to stay with my ruling, and that is that we will accept the word of the Acting Prime Minister that the particular individual was not a candidate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cd966fd2c7447728a0034e8793c6ee7\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Would it be reasonable in this circumstance, then, for the question to be reworded, with the gentleman concerned referred to as a New Zealand First party member who was seeking candidacy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4b735c83c9d4eee80dc359669e569c5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member wants to do that, he may, but he doesn\u2019t get an extra question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227807d033a0d340b58a1e8fb7503b9e51\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. What the House is being invited to do now is to go beyond the privacy provisions that there are in the electoral law of this country, which mean a person can be a member of a party and that is confidential to the party, not to the whole country. Mr Brownlee, in his naivety, gets up and he suggests we go past the privacy provisions of the electoral law in this country and enrolment in this country and party membership in this country just because he wants to indulge himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffd501ae97aa4cb299626d9a36b1e953\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019m going to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022588ff7c7464a472a99cb559d2f198caf\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s an unreasonable characterisation. It\u2019s quite unreasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022772422401f1f477cbe326d338a84b098\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m now going to rule that this whole discussion is hypothetical, because National have used up all of their supplementaries and there is not an opportunity to reword anything anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227fbfe8d0d7c8483bb900688836063635\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbb4b1bf8051492e85be6a2eb0228799\u0022\u003EFire\u2014Executive Wing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8301880f2564ae1a482b4aa1875673c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8301880f2564ae1a482b4aa1875673c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I inform members that there was, in fact, an actual fire on the ground floor of the Beehive. It has now been extinguished, but my understanding is that the Beehive is still currently evacuated while further checks are occurring. For any members who want to go to Bowen House, my advice would be that they go outside. The Beehive is not yet available for people to go back into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fdc886caaff341f5b57a6c699b80331f\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224bee164ad4264184ba4f40e5b4cbf4ac\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dab572fd03d74cb28b559e29b286196e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dab572fd03d74cb28b559e29b286196e\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a great pleasure to speak. On average, 384,000 families are now better off by $65 a week, 64,000 children have been lifted out of poverty, and 26,000 more families now benefit from Working for Families. Under the Best Start scheme, there is $60 a week for newborn babies born from Sunday\u2014actually, born a little earlier if they were expected after Sunday, but because of the nature of these things, sometimes they come a little earlier. One million New Zealanders are now benefiting from a winter energy payment, all because of this side of the House. This Government believes that elderly and low-income people should not go cold during the worst months of winter. That\u2019s the difference between members on this side of the House\u2014this coalition Government\u2014and members on that side of the House, who did not care when they were told, month after month, of people in poverty, people deprived, and people not in their own homes. They did nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to say how very proud I am to be part of a Government that has, in a very short space of time, exhibited what it means to be compassionate in Government, what it means to be caring, and what it means to understand the plight of so many ordinary New Zealanders who have only ever asked for a chance to get ahead, who have only ever asked for the rules to let them have a chance to look after themselves and their families\u2014that\u2019s what this Government is delivering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIf it\u2019s not enough just on those income support measures\u2014just on those measures to offer a little extra assistance, to redistribute the wealth of this great country, to give those who have missed out for too long a chance\u2014then let\u2019s look at housing. Isn\u2019t it fantastic that today\u2014just today\u2014when our amazing and very humble Minister of Housing and Urban Development launched the website by which you can register your interest in a KiwiBuild home, within two hours, 1,100 New Zealanders were lining up to get a KiwiBuild house. That tells you what we knew all along: that there was a crisis in housing in New Zealand\u2014something that members opposite spent year after year after year denying. There has been a crisis, and this Government is fixing it. That\u2019s what you do when you\u2019re compassionate and you care and you understand the plight of ordinary New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt has been a great day. We are committed to 100,000 affordable homes over a 10-year period. The counting started on Sunday; we are well under way. I don\u2019t quite know why it is that so many of the first ones are being built in the electorates of members opposite. We don\u2019t normally like to rub their noses in it and say \u201CWe told you so.\u201D, but hey, you know, we are generous to a T, and that is us, too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EYou see, the difference is palpable. We inherited a country where income inequality and income disparity were getting worse and worse. People could not get pay increases; people\u2019s incomes did not keep up with the real cost of living. Now we\u2019re doing something about it. So I don\u2019t see the expressions of concern now from the nurses and the teachers and others as anything other than an expression of their hope, that now they know they\u2019ve got a chance. Now, they know they\u2019ve got a Government that\u2019s on their side, that\u2019s going to give them a chance, that takes a long view, and that is about restoring the status and the standing of teachers, because that profession is so vital to the future of New Zealand and future generations of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that in nine short months has established an enviable record of achievement. We are putting New Zealand back on its feet. More to the point, we are putting New Zealanders back on their feet, putting them back where they belong, putting them back with a chance to get ahead, and giving them a sense of hope once again. I feel it wherever I go, and I am very proud to have as the Prime Minister of my country and of a Government that I am a part of a woman who has shown what it means to be compassionate, shown what it means to be understanding, shown what it means to be humble. She is doing what tens of thousands of working women have done for many decades\u2014gone off and become a mum\u2014and is still leading this country with values, with caring, with principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis is a proud time to be a New Zealander. This is a proud time to be part of this coalition Government. We\u2019re doing great things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022241decf59df446cc9eecb3e2870f1d20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022241decf59df446cc9eecb3e2870f1d20\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Nine months into this Government, we are seeing a level of arrogance and dismissiveness and know-everything that I haven\u2019t seen in a Government just this early on, and what an appalling attitude to process. This is a Government that thinks it knows so much better than everyone else, that process is a mere inconvenience to be swept aside when it doesn\u2019t suit. The dismissive attitude to anyone who doesn\u2019t agree with them, who\u2019s simply just \u201Cwrong\u201D, is appalling and, as I say, contemptuous of New Zealanders who do have an interest in what happens in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s have a look at the examples. You\u2019ve got the oil and gas decision, where the finance Minister didn\u2019t even bother to ask Treasury what the economic impact might be. The energy Minister didn\u2019t bother to take the advice that she was given about the actual emissions profile impact of that. We\u2019ve got a police Minister who hasn\u2019t bothered to read advice given to him by his police commissioner, because, of course, Stuart Nash knows so much more about policing than the police commissioner ever would. And we\u2019ve got a corrections Minister who isn\u2019t actually sure if he\u2019s read the advice. He hadn\u2019t read it; he had read it; he\u2019s not really sure; but, anyway, apparently it doesn\u2019t matter\u2014look over there, there\u2019s a squirrel!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EBut, actually, one of the worst examples I\u2019ve seen of this appalling approach to process is in this rapidly unravelling situation around Te \u0100rai development. This is important because you have here one developer of a multimillion-dollar piece of land selling sections almost exclusively to wealthy foreigners being carved out of a piece of legislation. Now, any time a Government says \u201CActually, here is the law, but this one developer shouldn\u2019t be subject to it.\u201D, of course there are going to be questions as to why. So we asked the questions: well, why is that\u2014why does this Government want to carve out this exemption? And, actually, we\u2019ve heard a number of interesting stories.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EBut before I get into that, I do think it\u2019s worth making this very clear: on this side of the House, we\u2019ve got no problem with these developments. We do recognise the value of foreign money coming in to grow our businesses, to grow our economy, to build more houses for New Zealanders, and, actually, we also recognise that sometimes having wealthy foreigners coming here creates real prosperity for this country, and it certainly doesn\u2019t impact housing affordability for New Zealanders. So we don\u2019t have a problem. But what we wouldn\u2019t be doing is passing a law saying \u201CIt\u2019s not OK for anyone but just this one group that we\u2019ve carved out.\u201D with very real questions around it. That is our concern. No problem with the development, but the process is hugely dubious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that has railed against any sort of foreign money into development, any sort of foreign ownership. So why would you carve out these properties? Well, Mr Parker said on a number of occasions, on Morning Report and repeatedly in this House, that he had to do it to avoid a Treaty breach\u2014this was an iwi settlement asset, so it had to be carved out because otherwise there could well have been a Treaty breach. According to Mr Parker, he didn\u2019t know there were other developers involved in this property for quite some time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EWell, I find that incredibly hard to believe, because let\u2019s run through what we do know: Shane Jones told this House that in the middle of January, he was meeting with those very developers\u2014meeting with John Darby, meeting with Ric Kayne\u2014and he knew absolutely that they were involved in the development. The Finance and Expenditure Committee submission on 15 February made it very clear that John Darby and Ric Kayne were involved in this development. The New Zealand Herald article that came out on 5 March made it very clear that this was a Ric Kayne development, and yet the Minister in charge of the legislation claimed no one bothered to tell the very Minister in charge of the law about any of that until, apparently, mid-March, when Treasury, we understand, told Mr Parker, \u201COh, yes, there are some other developers involved in the land. Not really sure how much they own. By the way, we don\u2019t think the exemption should go ahead.\u201D And yet, still Mr Parker is claiming that the reason it went ahead was to protect an iwi asset, to protect against a Treaty breach, and apparently it was the Treasury advice he relied upon in reaching that decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m going to be very interested to see that Treasury advice and see exactly what it says\u2014and isn\u2019t it interesting how long it\u2019s taken to come out? So even when Mr Parker found out there were other developers involved, which was before the paper went to Cabinet, did he then ask the obvious question: how much of the land is iwi-owned; how much is owned by developers? No. Today, in the House, he admits, himself, that that is not up to the standard we should expect of our Ministers, and that\u2019s the only thing I agree with Mr Parker on\u2014that is not up to the standard we should expect. This is a process that has a lot more questions to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e96d421e1fd5497ba52c3c292639d381\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e96d421e1fd5497ba52c3c292639d381\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is just the beginning. This is a compassionate Government that is making meaningful change; making meaningful difference to make people\u2019s lives better. That is an Opposition that is desperate; that is tilting at windmills. This is a Government that has delivered a transformational Families Package, which follows a foundational Budget, which will build a stronger economy and restore critical public services. This is a Government that is doing its job. This is a Government that is doing the right thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EOn the Prime Minister\u2019s Facebook page this week, following the transformational Families Package, comments from the members of the public: \u201CLeading by decency.\u201D, \u201CWow!\u201D, \u201CThank you, it\u2019ll make a huge difference to families including ours.\u201D, \u201CFinally, a Government that cares.\u201D, and \u201CSo impressed. Thank you for helping us out, Jacinda. Much love from my family of three kids, five pets, and a hard-working fianc\u00E9 while I look after the home.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that cares about people. It will deliver for parents with the Best Start payment; for children by increasing the rate of the orphans benefit, unsupported child\u2019s benefit, and foster care allowance; students, with the increases in accommodation allowances; superannuitants, with the costs of heating their homes over winter with the winter energy payment. And it will be done while taking account of our ambitious programme, which will meet Budget responsibility rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWhat does the Opposition say? Simon Bridges says he\u2019s for the Families Package but also that he opposes it. He criticises the main elements but won\u2019t commit to removing them. He says it\u2019s not targeted enough; he also says it\u2019s targeted to only a few people. The National Party also doesn\u2019t support the universal winter energy payment, but does support universal superannuation payments. They need to say what they actually stand for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI want to refer back to why it is so important that we have this winter energy payment. I want to refer back to 2011\u2014seven years ago\u2014when a fundamentally important piece of research was released out of the University of Victoria and the University of Otago which revealed that a quarter of New Zealand households were estimated to be in fuel poverty. They said, \u201CNew Zealand has a poor history of housing regulation, so existing houses are often poorly insulated and rental properties are not required to have insulation or heating. Average indoor temperatures are cold by international standards and occupants regularly report they are cold, because they can\u2019t afford to heat their houses. Fuel poverty is thought to be a factor in New Zealand\u2019s high rate of excess winter mortality\u201416 percent, about 1,600 deaths a year\u2014and excess winter hospitalisations, at 8 percent.\u201D What shame that was. That was seven years ago. Now, making money available for insulation is absolutely important, but addressing the issue of fuel poverty\u2014people not being able to afford to heat their homes\u2014is absolutely critical. That\u2019s what this winter energy payment delivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve lost count of the homes I\u2019ve visited where the elderly stay in bed until the afternoon, where children are admitted to hospital every single year because there are holes in the walls, because there are gaps between the windows and the outside, where there\u2019s mould on the walls, and where people air their homes. They air their homes and there\u2019s still black mould on the walls. That is why the winter energy payment of $450 for singles and $700 for couples is so critical to begin to address these issues\u2014to keep those 40,000 children that are admitted to hospital every year out of hospital. This is just the beginning: a warrant of fitness for rental housing, more State housing, more affordable housing, an increase in the accommodation supplement, which will benefit 135,000 households, and the urban renewal of poor-quality housing. This is a compassionate, determined Government that knows what it stands for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f03b5d79630e4212a5f39085462932a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f03b5d79630e4212a5f39085462932a1\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, I raised in the House matters involving the Counties Manukau District Health Board (DHB) and an internal audit into unauthorised and excessive uses of public funds at the DHB, dating between 1999 and 2016. I\u2019m going to continue raising questions in the House about that audit and how it\u2019s been handled by the Minister and the Ministry of Health. These are not so much allegations; they\u2019re questions based off reports that I hold in my possession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EOn 15 December last year, the then chair of the Counties Manukau DHB, Lester Levy, wrote to David Clark, highlighting concerns about management and financial practices which the board had commissioned an internal audit on. Dr Levy\u2019s memo to the Minister outlined that the board was concerned about a range of matters, including how salary increases, allowances, and benefits paid to a former senior executive were authorised. The internal audit report was subsequently reviewed by a Ministry of Health - led review carried out by forensic accountants Beattie Varley, Deloitte, and the former Solicitor-General Michael Heron QC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EOn 12 December, Dr Levy had also written to the State Services Commissioner and Ministry of Health asking for assistance. Dr Levy wrote that \u201CBecause of the very serious and troubling nature of these issues, we consider it of the utmost importance that the review process gains greater momentum.\u201D In reply to Dr Levy, the State Services Commissioner wrote back on 20 December, saying, \u201CThe scope and nature of the review relies on utilising the Director-General of Health\u2019s powers.\u201D This is an important point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EI raise these particular considerations because the Minister of Health has stated in the House that the acting Director-General of Health, Stephen McKernan, raised the Beattie Varley review with him as Minister. I\u2019ve consistently asked in this House what steps the Minister took to ensure any conflicts of interest were appropriately managed. I\u2019m going to continue asking those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThe Beattie Varley review that Mr McKernan discussed with the Minister was a review of the DHB\u2019s own internal audit. Some of the very serious and troubling issues in that audit involved salary transactions that were not properly authorised or were excessive or inappropriate. Part of the suite of documents making up the internal audit was a document I tabled today, entitled \u201CSalary and Allowance Validation\u201D. It\u2019s essentially a list of every salary and allowance change relating to a senior executive that was audited. This document highlights every time a salary or allowance did not properly comply with the board\u2019s internal procedures or standard accounting practices. There is a specific column where the auditor notes if the salary or allowance received authorisation properly. For each year between 2002 and 2006, the auditor found salary increases that were approved by Mr McKernan and were not properly authorised. In 2003 and 2005, the auditor found at-risk payments that were approved by Mr McKernan and were not properly authorised. In 2005, the auditor found that 168 hours of annual leave and education leave for the senior executive were cashed in with approval from Mr McKernan, which, according to the auditor, a legal opinion did not support. In 2006, the auditor found a one-time payment approved by Mr McKernan for the senior executive, which the auditor labelled \u201Cunusual\u201D as well as not being properly authorised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EWe know that all these issues were being reviewed by Beattie Varley, because in the letter I tabled yesterday regarding terms of reference, they specifically state that they believe their instructions to include \u201Creview the remuneration of the senior executive, including the receipt of additional allowances, travel allowances, and other vehicle leasing arrangements without proper authorisation\u201D. These fundamental questions must be answered. If Mr McKernan was the chief executive during the time in question and he was named in the audit documents, and those documents were then reviewed utilising the powers of the director-general, when he became director-general, did he take any measures to ensure the conflicts were managed appropriately?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EWe also need to know why the Minister, who was apprised of these issues as far back as December by Lester Levy, did not ensure conflicts were properly managed. We need to know why Mr McKernan was discussing the review with the Minister, given his name appeared in the audit documents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve consistently asked in the House whether the Minister took steps to ensure conflicts of interest were appropriately managed. Dr Levy raised these with the Minister in December, the Auditor-General raised these with the Minister in January, Rabin Rabindran raised these in person in the Minister\u2019s office in March, and Mark Darrow, a former board member, raised these in a letter with the Minister in April. The Minister knew as far back as December. The Minister has received information about the internal audit. The Minister has a responsibility to New Zealanders to ensure conflicts are properly managed. I submit that he answers these questions to New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u002222652bea6e354095b4e908f951faaac9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222652bea6e354095b4e908f951faaac9\u0022\u003EMARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker\u2014Mr Speaker; I forgot boys can be Speakers too in this House. I ask the House: when is income not income? And the High Court this week, in the past couple of days, has ruled: when it is debt, that is not income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EMs F has challenged the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) for eight years\u2014eight years of scrutinising and intrusive looking into her life and her financial transactions\u2014to come to a common-sense outcome that debt is not income. Ms F\u2014we protect her identity. I\u2019m very glad about this, in the public environment now, on this news, yet for eight years, her privacy has not been protected at all. Five years of having every single financial transaction judged because MSD wanted to\u2014they smelt blood and they were out to get her. And they kept moving the goalposts. Whenever it turned out that there was nothing to see here, they moved on to something else, and they kept doing this. And, for eight years\u2014living under a dark cloud of threat of crippling debt on top of debt that Ms F already had\u2014MSD were trying to make her pay back over $100,000 of debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThis is a hangover from nine years of a punitive National Government who directed public agencies to be punitive, to hunt for scalps, to search for blood. This is the outcome of a public agency spending a lot of time and money to go after one of our citizens where there was nothing to go after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019re going to change that. We are going to ensure that we overhaul that culture of Work and Income and of all of our public agencies and ensure that the public have faith and confidence in our Public Service organisations. We don\u2019t want to keep hearing consistently about decisions that have been made by our public agencies that have imposed hurt upon trauma, and we need a system change and attitude change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI am very grateful to Ms F for even having the tenacity to put up with years and years of court to push it through. We know she wasn\u2019t just the tip of the iceberg of who this has happened to; she\u2019s the pin on top of the tip of the very large iceberg of who this has happened to. Many thousands of people over many years, even at the threat of being taken to court, have instead just said, \u201CI will pay.\u201D Even when the payments have been unjust, they have just had to give up and say, \u201CI will pay.\u201D So I have huge appreciation here today in this House for Ms F, for beneficiary advocates, for the work of We Are Beneficiaries, for the work of Auckland Action Against Poverty, for all advocates, but, most of all, for people who have ever received a benefit at all in their lives\u2014and that\u2019s a lot of us, by the way, in this whole country\u2014who have put up with the dehumanising treatment for far too long, led through by the previous punitive Government, and have even managed to stay afloat at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EBut I have faith in the Ministers and this Government to turn that around, and I am so proud that the Green Party negotiated it in our agreement\u2014to overhaul that very culture, to remove the sanctions. And I am so proud to have Jan Logie pushing that through on behalf of all of us, because our country needs this. Being cruel is not sustainable. Being cruel is not sustainable for people or communities or land or environment or our future, and so this Government will pull its socks up and will overturn that culture that put harm on top of harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWhat we want to hear about is a system that treats beneficiaries with respect and dignity\u2014a system that is inclusive, rather than trying to separate out beneficiaries as a separate group of New Zealanders. They\u2019re just us, and many of us have been one at some point in our lives. But, in actual fact, the way that society operates is that we are all beneficiaries. We all benefit from the interconnected help and support that we give each other at some point in time. Not one of us stands alone independent in this life. Beneficiaries, people who receive a benefit, people on low incomes\u2014they\u2019re just us, and I am so thankful that the High Court made a common-sense decision and said debts are not income. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6d357f04a0246ffadd3f2105472835a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6d357f04a0246ffadd3f2105472835a\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E We had a speech from Andrew Little that was quite interesting because he had a bit of gravel in his voice. He had this undertone. He almost sounded like Chris Stapleton, who\u2019s a country blues singer, singing \u201CTennessee Whiskey\u201D. He thought that if he could give it that growl, if he could give it that bit of gravel, somehow it would have prominence to it and people would believe it, because he thought that power in his words would make a difference. We heard the slogan saying, \u201CIt\u2019s a great day today.\u201D We can celebrate all the good things that the Government\u2019s been doing, but one thing that\u2019s really important is that all of those words need to be held to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EToday, we had the Rutherford College kapa haka group come up here, and I was honoured to be able to take them around Parliament. This is one of the questions that the students were asking me. They said to me, \u201CMr Ngaro, what\u2019s the most important thing in your role here in Parliament, as a member of Parliament?\u201D I said to them, \u201CIt\u2019s the power of your words.\u201D You see, I said to them that for all of the things that we say inside this House, there\u2019s Hansard that records those words. When you are in Government, or even as an MP in your local electorate, you then have the power of your words. When you declare a statement or you\u2019re saying \u201CThis is a vision, this is what we\u2019re going to do, and this is what we want to achieve.\u201D, your words are held to account. You can give a bit of gravel, you can give it a bit of undertone, and it can sound, you know, sort of sexy and cool, but, at the end of the day, it\u2019s all held to account. That\u2019s what\u2019s important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI want to hold to account this Government, because one of the promises that it has made is around children in care\u2014the welfare of children, the issues around poverty that impose upon children, and the harm and the well-being of children, which has become critically important to this Government, as it has declared. I want to read out here that in this House, on 11 April, the Hon Tracey Martin said\u2014these are the words that she said when I asked her a question\u2014\u201Cwe have a large body of work under way, which includes continuing our social worker recruitment \u2026 developing new ways to recruit kin carers by working in partnership with iwi and our Pasifika community, \u2026 24/7 caregiver support and inquiry line \u2026 improving inductions for caregivers, increasing the number of safe and loving places\u201D. Those were the words that were proudly declared in this House by the Hon Tracey Martin. I have a lot of respect for her. Her intent is right, but, like all things, all intent is held to account in regards to what you achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo why is it, with these words that were declared quite openly both before the election and while in Government, that we\u2019re hearing a different tone from our community? Let\u2019s think about what that tone is. Nothing reflects it better than down in Otago, where Roxburgh\u2019s Stand children\u2019s camps were delivering services for traumatised children\u2014children who are the most vulnerable. And the Minister has declared there are about 6,000\u2014in fact, 6,100\u2014children that are currently in care. When the community came together, this is what they said: for all the talk that this Government talked about\u2014\u201CWhen we are the Government, children\u2019s welfare will be the priority.\u201D\u2014here\u2019s the reflection of the truth, here\u2019s the walk of that talk: Roxburgh children\u2019s camp closed. And here\u2019s what the children said: \u201CWe\u2019ve missed out in the general lolly scramble, unlike the America\u2019s Cup and other lucky people.\u201D In other words, for all the talk, that\u2019s not the walk that\u2019s coming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EIn the declaration by the Minister in regards to kin carers, why are we having Kate Hawkesby declaring this: \u201CThere are carers that are quitting in big numbers.\u201D? In fact, there is a huge decline, and the reason for that is\u2014from the caregivers themselves, they say this\u2014the system is broken. Here\u2019s from one of the caregivers: \u201CI just got tired, worn down, and broken, because it wasn\u2019t really the children; it was the system that broke me\u2014the system\u2014because there\u2019s no help there.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EWhen your words declare that you want to fix a system that\u2019s broken, when you haven\u2019t given the support\u2014in fact, I want to quote here from the national care standards for Oranga Tamariki that were set, and this is from the Cabinet paper. Here\u2019s what it declares on page 26, here\u2019s what\u2019s come out through the Cabinet, and they all agree with this: \u201Cto provide caregivers with support or assistance to access support including where a caregiver requests this, ensuring training is available for caregivers.\u201D Why is it that our caregivers are stating for themselves that they are struggling?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI want to finish off with this quote that\u2019s come from another caregiver who\u2019s saying that they want to provide the best service and care for our children. And here\u2019s what they say: \u201CRegular contact, checking with us, and seeing our emotions would be great, but we don\u2019t see it. It\u2019s literally like the movie Hunt for the Wilderpeople. I laughed when I saw it. They drive up, they dump the child, they stay for about five minutes, and then they leave, and that\u2019s the last we ever hear from them.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EYour words are important. The community will hold us to account. It\u2019s great to be able to see that we\u2019re holding them to account for the things that we see aren\u2019t happening in our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb3220526db34a77b5fb4e016fe1ad44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb3220526db34a77b5fb4e016fe1ad44\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a real pleasure to speak in this general debate because these are positive times. I agree with Alfred Ngaro, the previous speaker, that it\u2019s important that you do hold to your promises, and, as a brand new Government, we announced our Families Package in December 2017 and then, two days ago\u2014on 1 July, actually; three days ago already\u2014we rolled it out. This is our Government\u2019s major response to child poverty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EI know the Hon Andrew Little has already mentioned the numbers involved, but I think it\u2019s important that we\u2019re really clear on how many people are actually benefiting from this Families Package, so I want to repeat those numbers: 64,000 children will be lifted out of poverty as a consequence of this package, 26,000 more families will be eligible for Working for Families assistance, and 384,000 families with children will be better off by an average of $65 a week, which is the biggest boost in household income in a decade. Let\u2019s also not forget that we have 1 million people that will be warmer this winter. It\u2019s a winter energy payment that will look after 700,000 senior citizens, and 275,000 families will be getting help to stay warmer in their homes this winter. We\u2019ve seen a lot of people getting sick and even being taken to hospital over the winter months because they can\u2019t stay warm. We\u2019ve even seen people die, and this Government believes that that is simply unacceptable. That is not the New Zealand that we should be settling for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EOur Prime Minister took the time out over the weekend to make the announcement of the Families Package on Facebook, and the post so far has hit over 16,000 likes and loves and has been shared over 3,000 times. There have been lots and lots of comments made, and I\u2019d just like to read a couple out that are specifically touching: \u201CThank you. This will make a huge difference to so many families, including ours. Finally, a Government that cares.\u201D and \u201CThank you, and as a grandparent raising grandchildren, thank you for the additional clothing allowance for our mokos. I found out about the increase on Friday, and I cried straight away because of the struggling lately.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ENow, you can sneer about these struggles, but in my previous role as president of the flight attendants\u2019 union and, later, as the head of aviation at E t\u016B union, I\u2019ve seen those struggles first-hand, and I\u2019ve seen how over the last nine years, because of changes made by that previous Government to employment law, we\u2019ve seen a decreasing share of the economic growth going to working families. It has created the working poor, and that\u2019s really important to think about, because the majority of the children in poverty are actually in families where both parents work. Both parents do shift work. They work their butts off. They hold multiple jobs, they work shifts, and they still have no time to look after their kids. They still have no money to provide for their families. They\u2019re locked out of the housing market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ENow this Government has changed all that. We\u2019ve changed it. We\u2019ve given New Zealanders hope and a chance to get ahead, and we\u2019re doing that with the Families Package and we\u2019re doing that with KiwiBuild. We\u2019re opening the door to affordable housing for so many families and people, and we\u2019re addressing what has been a real housing crisis. The Hon Andrew Little told us that there have been 1,100 people so far that have registered for this scheme, but I was told just before that we are already up to 2,000 people that have registered for this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ESo, like our Prime Minister, we are most proud of the fact that we are not scared to have empathy and well-being as measures to inform our policies. We have compassion, and this Families Package, like the Prime Minister said, is one of our proudest moments. Under the leadership of our right honourable Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, we finally have a plan to fix the neglected problems of the past. We have ambition that things can be better, and we have the willingness to try new things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EBut instead of being constructive, the Opposition are negative and they seem confused. Simon Bridges is for the Families Package, but, at the same time, he opposes it. He has plenty of criticism for it, but yet, at the same time, he doesn\u2019t want to commit to removing it, either. On Morning Report, he called it \u201Cnot targeted enough\u201D. But then he went to talk again about his tax cuts for all, which are the most untargeted things you can think of, because the money will go to the top 10 percent, whereas this Government\u2019s Families Package delivers for middle and low income families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EWe are proud that we are rebuilding the foundations, growing the economy, and creating a New Zealand where everyone gets a fair go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0c30a5487e84d1f9063f8eca74de7fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0c30a5487e84d1f9063f8eca74de7fc\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. What is quite remarkable is the complete disjunct between the words that we hear from Government members and their actions. They\u2019re actually scrambling around. They already seem like a tired, worn-out, old Government that\u2019s desperately trying to sell a message of greatness and hope to New Zealanders, but what New Zealanders are experiencing doesn\u2019t match up with the rhetoric, because what they\u2019re experiencing in reality is a Government\u2014a centre-left Government\u2014that doesn\u2019t appear to care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EIt certainly doesn\u2019t care about hard-working Kiwi taxpayers, because what do they do? They come into office and they legislate away some tax relief and benefits that the previous National Government had put in, just to leave 1.7 million Kiwis worse off\u2014worse off. Many of them are worse off by a thousand dollars a year of tax relief that they were legislated for under the previous National Government. They try to say they care and their actions are different, but that isn\u2019t enough for them. It isn\u2019t enough for them. They really want to sock it to New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EThey talk about helping New Zealanders to stand on their feet. I actually think they may mean that, but the only reason they want to help New Zealanders on to their feet is because that makes it easier to get to their back pockets, because what are they doing? What are they doing? They\u2019re imposing more taxes and lifting the cost of living so that New Zealanders are worse off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EWhat have we seen? They cancelled those tax changes. The Amazon tax, making Kiwis pay more for the goods they consume; the brightline tax changes; and that dog\u2019s breakfast of a bill that will change the Overseas Investment Act\u2014those changes are seeing rent rises. What\u2019s more, on top of that\u2014because that\u2019s not enough for them\u2014there are nationwide fuel excise increases that, over three years, will see hard-working Kiwis paying 12c a litre more for their fuel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EBut that\u2019s not enough. Regional fuel taxes\u2014Auckland have got theirs already. Fourteen other regional councils around New Zealand are expressing an interest to get a piece of theirs just as soon as they can, including the Greater Wellington Regional Council. They\u2019ll get it. They\u2019ll apply for it, they\u2019ll get it, and on 1 January 2021, Wellingtonians and many other New Zealanders will also be paying an extra 11.5c a litre for their petrol on top of those excise increases, and it all adds up. It all adds up to a higher cost of living for New Zealanders, not even just in the fuel for their vehicles but also in the goods they buy\u2014particularly food.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003ERents going up and the loss of tax cuts all make life that much harder for the people in New Zealand that they\u2019ve always claimed to represent, over that side. They\u2019ve completely lost their way because here\u2019s the thing\u2014particularly with these tax changes around fuel. It has been acknowledged by the Minister responsible that it is a regressive tax and that it will hurt lower-income New Zealanders more than the wealthy, but they proceed with it anyway. What is his answer to New Zealanders who struggle to get by and who will struggle even more because of the actions of that Government? What is his answer? \u201CIt\u2019d be good for them in the long run.\u201D How patronising. How patronising of a Government that has been in office for only nine months and that purports to care for the poor and needy of New Zealand and then smacks them every which way they can. It\u2019s an absolute travesty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EOn top of that, we have to ask why. Why would they do this to these people? Apart from a lack of care and compassion, why would they do it? It\u2019s because of poorly targeted and wasteful spending elsewhere. The Government inherited the books in great shape, with massive surpluses and an economy that\u2014until they got their hands on the levers\u2014was looking to perform exceedingly well for the coming years. They waste $2.8 billion to get 900 fewer students, they give Shane Jones a $3 billion slush fund, and then they suddenly find the larder\u2019s empty. So what do they have to do? They have to find other sources of revenue to make up for the fact that they\u2019ve wasted so much elsewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003ESo this is a Government that is the architect of the misfortune of New Zealanders and the architect of its own misfortune. They want to tell New Zealanders that it\u2019s all rosy under the coalition Government, but that\u2019s not what New Zealanders are feeling, it\u2019s not what they are experiencing, and it\u2019s not what the horizon looks like for those hard-working Kiwis. Just nine months into a change of Government, every day and in every way this Government is trying to make Groucho Marx look like a wise man when he said \u201CPolitics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002239cda275a0304b25972e486cd57424f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239cda275a0304b25972e486cd57424f8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member\u2019s time has expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002263f44a371139409c97bf8a700f5dd45f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263f44a371139409c97bf8a700f5dd45f\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E E Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. I 1 H\u016Brae, i whakarewa ake t\u014D m\u0101tou kaupapa, te kaupapa m\u014D ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau, ar\u0101 te tohatoha i te moni me te tautoko ki ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau. I a au i te k\u0101inga i noho ahau, i m\u0101takitaki ahau i te k\u014Drero o t\u014D m\u0101tou Pirimia, a Jacinda Ardern, e awhiawhi ana i t\u014Dna p\u0113pi a Neve Te Aroha. E k\u014Drero ana ia i runga i Pukamata e p\u0101 ana ki t\u0113nei mahi, hei ko t\u0101na ko t\u0113nei te mea e whakah\u012Bh\u012B ana ia kua tutuki i a ia i Te Pirimia. I k\u014Drero ia e p\u0101 ana ki te pup\u016B ake te whakaaro o t\u0113nei kaupapa m\u014D ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau, n\u0101, e tino whakah\u012Bh\u012B ana ia kua tae mai te r\u0101 kia whakarewa i t\u0113nei kaupapa. N\u0101 i k\u014Drero ia, kua piki ake te wiki kua hoatu ki ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau kia noho ki te k\u0101inga me te p\u0113pi ki te 22 wiki an\u014D hoki. Kua t\u012Bmata te tohatoha, te hoatu i te $60 ia wiki ki ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau k\u0101tahi an\u014D te p\u0113pi ka wh\u0101nau mai \u0101 muri mai i te tahi o H\u016Brae, m\u014D te katoa o te tau kotahi\u2014m\u014D \u0113tahi o ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau, rua tau, toru tau. He aha te mea? He aha te take? N\u0101temea hei tiaki i \u014D t\u0101tou p\u0113pi, \u0101 t\u0101tou taonga tuku iho, kia m\u0101m\u0101 ake te whakatupu i ng\u0101 p\u0113pi, i ng\u0101 tamariki, n\u0101temea ko te piko o te m\u0101huri, t\u0113r\u0101 te tupu o te r\u0101kau. Ko \u0101 t\u0101tou tamariki t\u0113r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EN\u0101 i kite ahau, neke atu i te 16,000 ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata i hoatu i te k\u014Dnui, te manawa nui an\u014D hoki ki t\u014Dna k\u014Drero, ki t\u014Dna karere i runga i Pukamata. Ki ahau nei, he Pirimia manaaki tangata kia hoki mai te manaaki ki roto i te mahi K\u0101wanatanga. He Pirimia aroha ki te tangata, awhi, tautoko an\u014D hoki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EN\u0101 e hiahia ana ahau ki te k\u014Drero e p\u0101 ana ki te tohatoha i ng\u0101 moni m\u014D te w\u0101 o te h\u014Dtoke, m\u014D te w\u0101 e kaha nei te makariri. I t\u0113nei wiki, i kite ahau i t\u0113tahi k\u014Drero i runga i t\u014Dku ake Pukamata m\u014D t\u0113tahi m\u0101m\u0101 i Moerewa, t\u0113tahi pouaru, e rua ana k\u014Dtiro, e amuamu ana ia, e tangi ana ia m\u014D te makariri o t\u014Dna k\u0101inga. He k\u0101inga r\u0113ti t\u014Dna. I taua r\u0101 tonu i haere ia ki te toa ki te hoko i ng\u0101 mea hei whakatikatika i t\u014Dna ake whare kia mahana t\u014Dna whare m\u014D ana k\u014Dtiro. I tangi taku ng\u0101kau. E m\u014Dhio ana ahau ko t\u0113nei moni e hoatu ana ki w\u0113nei wh\u0101nau, ka ora ai w\u0113nei tamariki, ka mahana ai w\u0113nei wh\u0101nau. Kia kaua koutou e wareware, ko te ture kua whakature i t\u0113r\u0101 tau an\u014D hoki ar\u0101 ko te Healthy Homes Guarantee t\u0113tahi atu ture hei whakapai ake, hei whakam\u0101m\u0101 ake i t\u0113nei t\u016B \u0101huatanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EKotahi meneti e toe ana, e hiahia ana ahau ki te whakautu \u0113tahi o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero o t\u0113r\u0101 taha o Te Whare. Hei ko t\u0101 r\u0101tou, e h\u0113 ana t\u014D m\u0101tou hoatu i te moni, t\u014D m\u0101tou tautoko i \u0113tahi o ng\u0101 kaupapa. N\u014D. K\u0101hore. K\u0101hore ahau e whakaae ana ki t\u0113r\u0101. N\u0101 koutou te h\u0113. I te heahea koutou ki te tuku atu i te moni ki te 10 paih\u0113neti o ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata, ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata whai rawa, engari te nuinga o ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata ka noho tonu i roto i te rawakore, i te p\u014Dharatanga an\u014D hoki. E kore rawa ahau e whakaae ki t\u014D koutou whakaaro, \u014D koutou kowhete i a m\u0101tou m\u014D t\u014D m\u0101tou mahi hei tautoko i \u0113nei wh\u0101nau i t\u0113nei w\u0101 taimaha. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EN\u0101, e tika ana te k\u014Drero o t\u014D m\u0101tou Minita m\u014D te taha p\u016Btea. Hei ko t\u0101na: he aha te mea nui o t\u0113nei ao? T\u0101na i k\u012B atu he tangata, he tangata, he tangata. N\u0101 ko t\u0113r\u0101 te mahi o t\u014D m\u0101tou K\u0101wanatanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[On 1 July, we launched our Families Package, which is an allocation of money to support families. While I was at home, I watched the news item where our Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, was cuddling her baby, Neve Te Aroha. She talked about this programme, the Families Package, on Facebook, and how proud she was to be the Prime Minister when it was introduced. She described how the idea for this package for families came about and how proud she was that the day to launch this initiative had arrived. She talked about how the number of weeks given to families to stay at home with their baby had increased to 22. The distribution has begun, giving $60 per week to the families of babies born after 1 July, for the year\u2014for some families, for two or three years. What for? What is the reason? The reason is to nurture our babies, our inherited treasures, to bond with the babies, with the children, because it is the looking after of the sapling that makes a tree grow strong. Our children are the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow I saw that more than 16,000 people gave her Facebook speech and message a thumbs up or a heart. In my view, a Prime Minister who cares for people will bring caring back to the way Government works. She is a Prime Minister who loves people and who will embrace and support them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to talk about allocating money during the winter, when we are beset by the cold. This week, I saw on my own Facebook a report about a mother from Moerewa, a widow with two daughters, who was complaining and crying about how cold her house was. She had a rented home. That very same day she went to the shops to buy what was needed to improve her house so her home would be warm for her girls. My heart wept. I know that this money that we are giving these families will benefit these children, it will keep these families warm. Let us not forget that the legislation that was passed last year, the Healthy Homes Guarantee Act, was another law which improved and eased this type of stress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI have one minute left, and I want to respond to some of the comments from that side of the House. In their view, we were wrong to give this money and to support some of these initiatives. No. No. I cannot agree with that. You are the ones who are wrong. It makes no sense to give money to the top 10 percent of people, of the wealthy people, while most people remain destitute and in poverty. I can never agree with your thinking, or with your objection to our actions to support these families at this tough time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, our finance Minister is right. He asks: what is most important in this world? His answer is people, people, people. And that is what our Government is about.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022 data-id=\u00225b90631cbd084e509cbe548d74672dc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b90631cbd084e509cbe548d74672dc0\u0022\u003EHAMISH WALKER (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Last month, I had the honour of attending Fieldays up near Hamilton, Mystery Creek, and what was really nice about this particular Fieldays was just walking around the different stalls, seeing the innovation from the agricultural sector and seeing the young people. There were a lot of young people there. I want to talk about those young people, and I\u2019ll come back to them later on, but we need these people joining the agriculture sector, because if we want to increase our exports, we need to attract more young people to this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EI just want to talk about some of the Government\u2019s decisions and their impacts on Clutha-Southland. It\u2019s not all doom and gloom. I do want to congratulate them\u2014despite being a lion in Opposition, they\u2019re a bit of a lamb in Government, and one of those areas where they were a lion was the Trans-Pacific Partnership. I want to acknowledge the Hon Todd McClay, who\u2019s in the House today, and also the previous Minister of Trade, the Hon Tim Groser\u2014absolute stellar job for New Zealand. For New Zealand to increase our standard of living\u2014we\u2019re a small country at the bottom of the Earth\u2014we need to trade more. So I just want to congratulate the Government on passing the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership. If they didn\u2019t pass that, that would have really hurt Clutha-Southland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EYou would\u2019ve also noticed at Fieldays the Minister of Agriculture came out with a rural-proofing policy\u2014a rural-proofing policy. Now, let\u2019s have a look at some of their policies and how they\u2019re affecting Clutha-Southland. Immigration: Labour campaigned on cuts of 25,000 to 30,000. New Zealand First campaigned further to 10,000. Well, I\u2019ve got restaurants in Queenstown\u2014take the Lone Star, for example. They struggle to open some lunchtimes because they can\u2019t find staff. I\u2019ve got a restaurant in Te \u0100nau, the Ranch Bar and Grill. If you go there, it\u2019s a wonderful restaurant. They can\u2019t even open up the upstairs of their business. They\u2019re functioning at 70 percent of their business. How are they supposed to make money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EWe also saw during the Budget the Primary Growth Partnerships, which led to some really innovative projects and value-added projects being cut. The oil and gas decision\u2014this is a decision which will cost New Zealand hundreds of millions of dollars. This decision didn\u2019t even go to Cabinet. Irrigation\u2014just cut off. Biological emissions into the emissions trading scheme\u2014this is going to cost, on average, $5,000 per farm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EAnother example of the Government being a lion in Opposition and a lamb in Government: the Minister of Agriculture was forced to go around with his begging bowl for the Government Industry Agreement for Biosecurity Readiness and Response agreements, which were put into force in 2013 by the Minister for Primary Industries at the time, Nathan Guy, where, basically, if there\u2019s a biosecurity incursion, the industry forks out up to 12 percent. The Minister of Agriculture, a month or two ago, went round with his begging bowl and increased it to 32 percent. Take M. bovis alone\u2014this is going to cost the industry a couple of hundred million dollars more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003ETake the regional growth fund, or the \u201CNew Zealand First survival fund\u201D: just under $60 million was applied for from Northland\u2014$62 million given out. That\u2019s right\u2014less was applied for and more was given out. The rest of New Zealand: $250 million was applied for, and only 42 percent was given out, so over 62 percent of that fund was given out to Northland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EI just want to talk about Labour campaigning on looking after vulnerable children. On Monday this week, in a small rural town in Otago, the Roxburgh children\u2019s camp had a celebration\u2014well, it wasn\u2019t really a celebration; it was a bit of a farewell. Over 70 members of the community turned up, because it\u2019s closing down. This is a camp that looks after some of the most vulnerable children in Otago and Southland. These children have been sexually abused, physically abused, and mentally abused. I just want to read out a comment from the Central Otago mayor, who called the closure \u201Can absolute bloody outrage\u201D: \u201CI\u2019m just heartbroken \u2026 the Minister for Children Tracey Martin \u2026 [needs] to look at herself in the mirror and ask if she has any integrity for what she\u2019s done to the children of the South.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EWhile I\u2019m on it, if we want a strong farming sector and a rural community, we don\u2019t need to cut essential health services. We took office in 2008 amongst a global financial crisis. We had the Christchurch earthquakes\u2014some of the most expensive disasters, GDP-wise, that any country in the world\u2019s ever faced. We borrowed more to keep these services going. Labour took office late last year, and what do you know? Roxburgh children\u2019s camp, no more; Lumsden maternity hospital\u2014probably gone; we\u2019re trying hard\u2014and 600 grand out of the Rural Health Alliance. This Government needs to start listening to rural New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0cee80efaa344c58326fc33c9315200\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0cee80efaa344c58326fc33c9315200\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022457ecaa194814c54b56012b1bb5daf37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022457ecaa194814c54b56012b1bb5daf37\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Could I just, before I respond to that contribution, take the opportunity on behalf of New Zealand First to extend our condolences to the Jones family. Of course, the Hon Shane Jones is a highly respected member of our caucus and, I know, someone who has many friends and is one of the great characters in this House, and I know that you will probably all join me and us in extending our condolences and showing our respects to his family on the passing of his father.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI guess the contribution we\u2019ve just had from the member for Clutha-Southland, Mr Walker, actually follows on from that funeral theme. It has been emanating from the Opposition benches over recent times. It wouldn\u2019t be so bad if it was actually borne out by some facts, and we\u2019ve just seen the forecast from the IMF: the 3 percent GDP growth, out for five years; unemployment trending lower; and, importantly, real wages beating inflation. That is the challenge: to get a growing economy where everyone benefits, not just everything going up to the top 1 percent. As we look at the egalitarian message we\u2019ve done around this, we\u2019re taking foreign buyers out of the housing market so our citizens get a better shake of the stick. But there\u2019s an old maxim \u201CDon\u2019t listen to what people are saying about the markets; listen to what the markets are saying about themselves\u201D, and oh what a story they\u2019re telling. The sharemarket, where actual people put real money and invest, is at record highs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI want to highlight off the back of Mr Walker\u2019s contribution the fact that the latest quarterly update from the Ministry of Primary Industries on primary industry exports is up to $42.2 billion, up 10 percent, at a record level. We have challenges of growth, not stagnation. Dairy revenue is up 14 percent, and, encouragingly, that\u2019s off the back of value-add. It\u2019s not on more volume. We\u2019ve actually got 200,000-odd less cows than we had two years ago, but we\u2019re starting to trend in the right direction in that value-add.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EHorticulture is up to nearly $7 billion, up 4.7 percent. Arable is up 20 percent, and a lot of that is based on herbal remedies and natural remedies that we\u2019re manufacturing and adding real value to. And forestry is up 11 percent as we embark on our nation-building 1 billion trees strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EOf course, Mr Walker alluded to the $3 billion Provincial Growth Fund. He may be sceptical about that, but I can tell you his mayors and his constituents are very excited for the first time in a number of years to actually have some money available for their infrastructure and their projects. There\u2019s the $1.1 billion tax credits that came in the Budget to help us innovate, help that value-add. There\u2019s the trade deals, the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, as Mr Walker alluded to. There\u2019s the EU trade deal. We were at the British High Commission this morning\u2014and I know Mr Walker was there as well\u2014and they\u2019re enthusiastic about a UK trade deal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWe have been there for those farmers in Clutha-Southland with the M. bovis, and, yes, they should contribute some themselves, but we\u2019re putting up $886 million, the vast majority of that coming from the taxpayers of New Zealand. But, of course, the industry that I do want to highlight is the red meat sector, and isn\u2019t it great to have a $9.2 billion industry, up 10 percent. But, of course, one of the challenges that we have as an industry is the pipeline of synthetic proteins\u2014this disruptive technology coming down the pipe at us. We must respond as a nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EBut imagine my shock and surprise, as a farmer as much as a politician, when I saw our national carrier, our national champion, highlighting and showcasing the very threat that we face, the Impossible burger\u2014and not just putting it on the menu but showcasing it, putting videos out, and talking a big game. It\u2019s paying journalists to go overseas. The Air New Zealand charter in its guiding principles actually says that one of their aims is to promote New Zealand companies, and in this case they have badly let their rural constituency down. Those constituents that only have the choice of Air New Zealand have no choice to take their business elsewhere\u2014the tens of thousands of meatworkers, the farmers, and the truckies. They all have to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea230a19e69e4dc99ba7044e6c4fa36a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea230a19e69e4dc99ba7044e6c4fa36a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired. Before I call Nicola Willis, there\u2019s been a box that\u2019s been sitting in that area without a member behind it for the vast majority of this time. It\u2019s to be taken down off the bench. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00224455da591d964fe88773007a913e3e9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224455da591d964fe88773007a913e3e9b\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m standing up today to talk about the state of the Minister of Education, to talk about the growing gap between his words and his actions, the growing gap between his intentions and the reality of what\u2019s going on in education, and the growing gap between his ideology and the results for our children. This is a Minister, who in February this year, told us that his approach would be one that was respecting, engaging, and drawing in educators; that his approach would be about broad engagement and shared results; that there would be a lot of co-design, consultation, and collaboration\u2014and all of this was used to justify the fact that that Minister wanted to have 13 different reviews in education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo then we ask ourselves: if those were his intentions, what is the reality in education right now? We have primary teachers striking for the first time in 24 years. The engagement\u2019s not working so well for them, Mr Hipkins. We have school principals, respected, longstanding, experienced leaders in our community\u201437 of them\u2014taking a full-page ad in the New Zealand Herald to protest the Minister\u2019s approach to the review of NCEA. And, don\u2019t worry, they\u2019re not backing down from that. Twenty-three more principals have joined them to say, \u201CWe\u2019ve had enough of this Minister\u2019s approach, too.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAs if that\u2019s not enough, today we had respected educators of more than a hundred years\u2019 combined service and M\u0101ori leaders of great standing in our community\u2014Sir Toby Curtis and John Shewan at the Education and Workforce Committee\u2014telling us why they were making a claim to the Waitangi Tribunal following that Minister\u2019s decision to terminate the agreements with partnership schools. I want to talk about that, because if there is one action that throws into high relief the gap between the words of this Government and what it actually does, the hypocrisy of this Government, it is the callous disregard for the students\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b0a8babd6234f50b809c2eac0947a16\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When I stand up, the member sits down. She used a word which is on the proscribed list, and she will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0bc32216bfa4eabb2a86e536ad025f1\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I stand, withdraw, and apologise. If there is one action that throws into high relief the disregard this Government has, it is the way that they have approached partnership schools. Because those are schools that were set up to target those often let down by mainstream schools\u2014M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and students from decile 1 to 3 schools. Those were schools that were embraced by communities determined to do better for their own people. They were schools that were innovating\u2014that were having the courage to do things differently. They were schools that were delivering results: less truancy, more achievement, more engagement from wh\u0101nau, fewer suspensions. They were schools that, in the words of Dame Iritana T\u0101whiwhirangi, had a kaupapa about what is good for our children. They were staffed by people working hard to make a difference to the lives of disadvantaged kids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo what does the Minister think? How did he engage, collaborate, and cooperate with those schools? Did he visit them? No, not a single one. Did he talk to the students achieving in those schools? No, not a single one. So did he engage with the wh\u0101nau? Did he engage with the leaders? Did he engage with the teachers at that school? No, he didn\u2019t consult a single one because their ideology didn\u2019t match his and, therefore, they weren\u2019t worthy of his listenership. It is to the shame of the Government that they have been prepared to terminate the agreements of partnership schools without any consideration to the 1,500 children whose parents and families have chosen those schools because they believe they deliver better for their children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo how does that action match up with the words of the Minister? Well, I won\u2019t say it for myself. I\u2019ve already got myself into trouble for that approach in the House today. I\u2019ll use the words of others. I\u2019ll use the words of John Shewan and Sir Toby Curtis, who were before our select committee today, who said that what they think the Minister\u2019s approach amounts to is a clear case of bullying\u2014totally unacceptable. They say that they think it\u2019s one of the most skilful forms of bullying they have seen. They said they think the actions are manifestly unjust, that there was no evidence base for them, and that the decisions swam against the tide\u2014the tide of action against inequality, the tide of doing things for those who are disadvantaged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo before I sit down, let me say that when I talk about partnership schools, I\u2019m not just concerned for those children. I\u2019m concerned for every child and family affected by the 13 reviews in education, because of the callous disregard this Minister is prepared to show when actions don\u2019t fit his ideology. He needs to do better. He needs to listen. He needs to live up to his words of engagement, because if we want our education system to improve, the voices of all should be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002206a1f2b044fe4a55a5acf58b52c8d8a1\u0022\u003EExclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf (Environmental Effects) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa3e04caf0414a0db1406dd8b419e3ea\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022858fbb15e0e748cab4fd9ffa25588eb0\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00221d9609dece4c408181822e90e83ef4ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d9609dece4c408181822e90e83ef4ea\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Yesterday, I spoke in relation to the Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf (Environmental Effects) Amendment Bill at its second reading. What a difference a day makes. We\u2019re here today asking the questions\u2014I think I perhaps spoke for two minutes in relation to this bill, which was probably sufficient in relation to the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI guess rising today to speak in committee stage, as a whole, is a different case, and I wanted to really just start to have the conversation a little bit more in case people don\u2019t fully understand what this bill means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo, firstly, let\u2019s again address the purpose of this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220110ebb640614cdaaaf9b3d702fb89a8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! We\u2019re on clause 1, which is the title of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fa62a7b630e40f39f32fcb8d242d142\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The title of the bill\u2014right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259df45a038074ca39c52f865696d266b\u0022\u003ETamati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: Four minutes!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6d050ee65fa4e6ba8e8b01bce541712\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I\u2019ve got five minutes to talk on the title of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1e77275f9754e43b056189d4bb6202c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you don\u2019t have to talk for five.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aa610938569449380512bc74fc5d5a3\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies\u2014I thought we were doing the whole part. Okey-dokey. So this is not my best work today\u2014ha, ha!\u2014I\u2019ve got to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293c1f24204ec4f8dbf104bd181c7b145\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Go word for word, Angie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c226e9058aaf4693a3182b8472a9c01f\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Word for word\u2014I have to find it. Essentially, if we look at the work that we\u2019ve had to do over this last month or so, essentially, we have very few pages here. So I\u2019m just pulling out the bill in relation to\u2014oh. Department\u2014[Handed bill] Oh, thank you!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253192cb80db04df387e9fca291a447e3\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down for a minute, and I\u2019ll just sort it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3f96a76583443c59d5116002e36e874\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we\u2019re going to have some\u2014all right. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d56fbb7a5ea449d7a37e53262bfe57fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d56fbb7a5ea449d7a37e53262bfe57fc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Given the way the bill is drafted, and to ensure that the debate can be a reasonable one, I seek leave for the debate on all of the clauses in the bill to be taken as one debate, with each clause put separately at the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00220175a0859ada4d769192703a7bf73d47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220175a0859ada4d769192703a7bf73d47\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be not. Just a moment\u2014just for clarification, it\u2019s now one debate, but each question will be put separately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022622c9fbd7f3740f684751e87f5f462d4\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 7 and Schedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b65b17d5c2a342c1999b0530922d128f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b65b17d5c2a342c1999b0530922d128f\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. My apologies to the committee. I thought that that\u2019s what we were doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EOK, so this bill amends the principal Act, the Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf (Environmental Effects) Act of 2012. Essentially, the bill is to look at the costs of a board of inquiry and to make sure and set up that those costs are recovered, and the costs are recovered by the consenting authority or the consenting organisation or the organisation seeking consent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EEssentially, there isn\u2019t a lot more in this bill to talk about. It\u2019s actual and reasonable costs, there is the provision under the clause to ensure that\u2014apply and consent are asked specifically for what those costs might be\u2014there is the possibility to get that information, and, essentially, the bill clarifies the cost incurred by the Environmental Protection Authority in deciding applications. They\u2019re already cost-recoverable, and this is just the process of the board of inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo, essentially, there isn\u2019t a lot more to say about this. However, I think there\u2019s really one matter that we need to just look at, and that was the truncated process, to just make the point that during select committee we had seven representatives from the oil and gas and seabed mining industries that were spoken to or targeted for consultation. Four out of five of those respondents supported this cost recovery; the other didn\u2019t make mention of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo, essentially, we have a situation where there is not a lot going on, everyone agrees to it, and, accordingly, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a890574ae82f4507b77547aecd239c03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a890574ae82f4507b77547aecd239c03\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, I don\u2019t think that this committee of the whole House is necessarily going to take too long. The parties across the House, I think, are in agreement on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThere is one aspect that I want to raise, and I hope that the Minister in the chair, David Parker, will take a call just to rise and talk a little bit about the Supplementary Order Paper 48, that he has in his name, that makes an amendment to clause 5. This, as I understand it, is in relation to a submission that was received after the Environment Committee reported back to the House, from the Law Society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe Law Society made several good comments and recommendations to the select committee, and it was, I think, useful that cognisance was taken of those matters. This is not a contentious piece of legislation. It\u2019s a tidy-up piece of legislation. It, effectively, seeks to remedy a drafting error that occurred during reforms to the Resource Management Act and to the principal Act that this refers to in the last Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThat is an error that occurred due to drafting, and it\u2019s no criticism of the Parliamentary Counsel Office officials who were responsible. It was a very big piece of legislation\u2014some 700 clauses. It ran to 250 pages, and one could easily understand why that situation arose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut I do have a question for the Minister in the chair. I\u2019m keen to know, if he could just explain to the committee of the whole House about his Supplementary Order Paper and what that might mean for this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022776415e81ece429487ea344efffbe3f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022776415e81ece429487ea344efffbe3f8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. Can I thank members for their contributions. And, in response to Mr Simpson, who just spoke: you\u2019re correct that this is necessary to correct a defect in the Resource Legislation Amendment Act 2017.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAnd I won\u2019t recount at great length as to why that was a flawed process. We\u2019ve been through that at earlier stages of the debate. But the effect of the imperfection in that Act was that the cost recovery rights of the Crown to recover from an applicant the cost of running a hearing for their application was omitted. And, therefore\u2014people are entitled to make applications. There is a cost to running the process after they make an application, but the cost cannot be recovered from the applicant and, therefore, it falls to taxpayers, and that\u2019s wrong. So the amendment bill fixes that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper, as Mr Simpson said, makes it clear that the principles of cost recovery that sit in the existing Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf (Environmental Effects) Act, at sections 143 to 147 of that Act, apply here. You know, it\u2019s really for the avoidance of doubt\u2014I think that was probably the effect of this anyway. The Law Society said the legislation would be easier to follow and it would put the matter beyond doubt if this amendment was made to the amendment bill, and so Supplementary Order Paper 48, in my name, inserts in new section 52A new subsection 52A(6) at the end of that section, which says \u201CSee sections 143 to 147 in relation to recovery of costs incurred by the EPA.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIf members\u2014or members of the public, indeed\u2014go to those sections 143 to 147, they will see that they are indeed about cost recovery\u2014section 143 being \u201CPrinciples of cost recovery\u201D; section 144, \u201CMethods of cost recovery\u201D; section 145, \u201CCost recovery to relate generally to financial year\u201D; section 146 saying that charges can be prescribed by regulations; and section 147 saying that those charges can constitute a debt due to Environmental Protection Authority. So that\u2019s the purpose of that Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EClause 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 48 in the name of the Hon David Parker to clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EClause 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EClause 6 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EClause 7 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d8884ffbebd44cf285946b9474d3c248\u0022\u003ESocial Security Legislation Rewrite Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002265df46f6ab544629834cf517a6ea8c6a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000407\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 24 May.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a71935050b924b9b92673e013f7f8226\u0022\u003EPart 3  Obligations (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u00228eed83de583045bbb9bd2096646f04b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228eed83de583045bbb9bd2096646f04b0\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for this opportunity. Very quickly, I would to recap that I was talking to my amendment, which is to insert new subclause (3) in clause 120. This is about newborn enrolment with general practitioners. My amendment is seeking to improve health and social outcomes for infants and children by requiring that newborns are enrolled with a general practitioner of the family\u2019s choice before they are six weeks old.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EAs the committee would have realised, this amendment is actually based on my member\u2019s bill, which the Government is not supporting. So through this amendment, I\u2019m giving another opportunity to this Government\u2014which keeps talking big on doing more for children\u2014to show that, actually, they want to match their words. So this is their second opportunity. This is because in clause 120, \u201CHealth care enrolment and compliance with core health checks\u201D, we see that people who are on a benefit have to take reasonable steps to ensure that each dependent child is enrolled with a primary healthcare provider. Also, in that clause, we also see that \u201C(2) A person to whom this section applies must take all reasonable steps to ensure that a dependent child under the age of 5 years is up to date with core checks under\u2014(a) the programme that immediately before 15 July 2013 was known as Well Child; or (b) any similar established programme in its place.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThe issue here is that when people are on a benefit, they are provided with all the support and encouragement, and they are provided with help to get their newborns enrolled with a primary healthcare provider. But, when a person is not on a benefit, that kind of support is not available. So, to me, it\u2019s a matter of consistency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c33785b5739547b89e463413f9de30c3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: So it\u2019s compulsory?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293e5072e77e845a98f6afe3e090e46a4\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a matter of consistency\u2014when people on a benefit get all that support, all that encouragement, then other people should also have that kind of encouragement and support available to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe know that all new mums don\u2019t maintain an Outlook diary to remember when to take the newborn for their health check-up. So we want to see that there is a proactive system for everybody, not just for families that are on a benefit. I\u2019m sure those new mums will really appreciate getting a call from their nominated general practitioners saying, \u201CWe have received a pre-enrolment request on behalf of your newborn, so could you come to the clinic to complete the enrolment process.\u201D I\u2019m sure new parents and new mums will definitely appreciate that, because it\u2019s very easy to miss appointments in those early days when the family is settling in with a newborn. So it\u2019s all about providing support, and, also, because it is in line with what\u2019s already in this legislation, it makes sense that we see that not only people on a benefit but other people also have a similar kind of support available to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe also know that if people are on a benefit and they are not complying with this\u2014that is, after all the encouragement, all the support, all the help that they are provided\u2014then there can be consequences. These consequences can be in terms of sanctions. This could be their welfare payment\u2014benefit payment. So that emphasises the importance of getting their children enrolled with a primary healthcare provider. Why can\u2019t we have a similar kind of importance put on children that are born to parents that are not dependent on a benefit? So that is what my amendment highlights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EI would like to actually ask the Minister to address the committee and tell us if the Minister is deciding not to accept my amendment\u2014this is their second opportunity to prove that they are really wanting to do more for newborns, they are really wanting to do more for children. If the reason given is, \u201CBecause this is just a rewrite bill, we are not going to make any policy changes.\u201D, then I will say this has been such a waste of time. It has been a waste of time of this House, a waste of time of the select committee process, and a waste of time for all the submitters, because while we are rewriting this bill\u2014and I fully understand the rewrite was required because it became so disjointed with so many amendments, in this bill and in this part as well\u2014we want to make sure that we are efficiently using the House\u2019s time. Something that is so crucial, so important\u2014why can\u2019t it be extended to all parents? It will be a very easy amendment. So that\u2019s why I want to move my amendment, which is to see that all newborns are enrolled with general practitioners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EIn my previous call, I have already described how this amendment, or this enrolment process, would work. It\u2019s really important to see that the newborn\u2019s family gets to choose the general practitioner. So that is part of this amendment as well. So they decide which general practitioner they want to see for their newborn. Then it\u2019s about getting a call from that general practitioner to ensure that the newborn actually is enrolled and is connected to all the services that children of people that are on benefit can be connected to\u2014and, as I said before, clause 120(2) is connecting them to Well Child or any similar programme established in its place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a matter of equity. This service should be available to all parents, irrespective of their dependence or independence in terms of their income. I truly believe that all newborns deserve to be looked after and connected to these various services that are available free of charge. It\u2019s not only for newborns, but new mums also get a lot of services through the Well Child programme which are\u2014[Bell rung]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7821ae195d7481dbd2f73489c4d901b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7821ae195d7481dbd2f73489c4d901b\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s an honour to take a call on the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill. It\u2019s fair to say on this side the House that this legislation initially came out of the National-led Government, and so there is a lot here in this bill that we\u2019re very supportive of. In this process of the committee of the whole House, it\u2019s an opportunity to again\u2014even if we were in Government\u2014improve the bill, and that\u2019s the intent of this. So as a way of sort of declaring that, we\u2019re putting through our amendments. They may be small amendments, small changes, and we hope that the Minister will see these as an opportunity again just to improve maybe small anomalies that need a slight change, a slight amendment, and that\u2019s the purpose of the committee of the whole House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got a number of amendments that are coming through, and there is one on clause 93, in Part 3, and it\u2019s in the name of the Hon Louise Upston. It\u2019s an amendment to clause 93 and it\u2019s inserting a new clause 93B. This is in relation to the provision headed up: \u201CSteps to explain overseas absence rules\u201D. The amendment wants to insert new clause 93B, which reads, \u201CA person may apply to the chief executive of the Ministry of Social Development for an exemption to 203A on the grounds of, for example: (a) Caring for children who may be located overseas (b) Health conditions which require time in warmer conditions (c) Serious illness to immediate family overseas\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThis, as I\u2019m sure the Minister would appreciate, often relates to some of our constituents, some of our superannuitants, here that have come from the Pacific nations and from the Pacific Islands. In fact, in the Chamber presently\u2014and in the select committee\u2014we are talking about an extension to the portability of the pension fund to nations of the Realm, and this amendment, I think, is quite relevant. What it does is it seeks to clarify what are some of the steps and it gives an explanation for the absence in the four-week absence rules that apply in this regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m hoping that the Minister will see that this is, again, a contribution that\u2019s practical, that\u2019s simple, and it seeks to give clarity to those who are beneficiaries, who are superannuitants, who are seeking then to, for these three reasons\u2014one is caring for children located overseas. Often it is the case that some of the family members will go back to those places. It could be Australia and other places, but in this regard I want to give examples of going back to the Pacific Islands. There are many situations where there have been health conditions\u2014again, family members, for very good reason, need to return back and go to those islands, and, again, it is frequently the case that they return to those islands. And then the third reason is where there is serious illness to immediate family members overseas and there is genuine cause for concern. We often call it tangihanga, as you\u2019ll know, Mr Chair, and it\u2019s where there isn\u2019t a chance to go back when superannuitants have lost a loved one, and it\u2019s a very genuine and authentic reason for them to be away from New Zealand as well. So I seek that this amendment would be able to be inserted there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThe amendment has an explanatory note saying that with the winter energy payment available for superannuitants in all cases, they do need to explain the four-week rule so that people don\u2019t miss out on their entitlement. And in the committee we\u2019ve had a number of speeches, and even in the general debate, talking about the power of the winter energy payment. I won\u2019t go into that, but if it\u2019s going to be something that\u2019s consistent with what this current Government has put through into this bill, which is the winter energy payment, then I think this consistency will reflect itself in this amendment, which I think is very pragmatic and practical, and, again, I think it would be very useful in this regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EAs I said, we don\u2019t want other people to miss out on that opportunity to be able to get the winter energy payment. So I want to submit this amendment in the name of my colleague and friend the Hon Louise Upston as a pragmatic solution\u2014and, again, the explanatory note, for those reasons, as well. I hope that the Minister may be able to see that she gets advice from her advisers and is maybe able to stand up and actually agree\u2014that would be wonderful\u2014and say that new clause 93B would be a very valid clause that we could include in this bill. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022742590bc8fe4486d95f522692359ecce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022742590bc8fe4486d95f522692359ecce\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Fantastic. I was worried\u2014not because of Parmjeet Parmar; I thought she might get three calls before I even had a chance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, I\u2019m really pleased to return here to Part 3. I know we\u2019ve spent a bit of time on it, but there\u2019s quite a lot of substance in this part. So I just want to address two particular issues in Subpart 1 of Part 3 and then at least attempt to talk to two of my tabled amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe first two points are to do with clause 91 in Subpart 1 of Part 3. It\u2019s just, once again\u2014well, I\u2019ll raise an issue which I\u2019d like the Minister to provide an answer to, because in clause 91 it talks about the failure to comply without a good or sufficient reason. I\u2019ve raised the question before: the difference between good in the moral sense or good in the ethical sense. In other words, is the reason that\u2019s been given something that the case manager deems as good or bad or deems as right or wrong? So I wouldn\u2019t mind an answer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThen in clause 92 I\u2019d also raised the issue around Map. That\u2019s the acronym\u2014Map. The Minister will know that\u2019s manual and processes, or rather the acronym which stands for the manual and processes\u2014how available that is to the public. The long and the short in terms of the Ministry for Social Development\u2019s (MSD\u2019s) obligations is noted in clause 92, \u201CMSD must make people affected aware of their obligations, consequences of non-compliance, and their review and appeal rights\u201D. I completely understand that that\u2019s done in voice and there\u2019s various fliers and documentations, but having worked in MSD in a variety of roles, I know that Map is a fantastic resource, certainly for those on the front line or those of us in management too. I\u2019m just really keen to know how accessible Map is going to be, because while I know how to find it on the MSD or the Work and Income website, it takes quite a bit of effort. So it would be great if the Minister can address those two points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019d like, if I might now, to turn to my tabled amendment. Granted, it was tabled almost a month ago at the very end of the last discussion. It\u2019s a suggestion to the Minister\u2014and I would really welcome her feedback\u2014to insert new clause 91A. This is to go, of course, just above clause 92, and inserts the heading, \u201CObligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child\u201D. The importance of this\u2014again, Subpart 1 is about the obligations that people have. I think, quite rightly, the Minister and those who have worked on this document have put in a goodly number of obligations, and I think one is missing and that\u2019s particularly to do with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s frequently told to us here that the child must be at the centre of all that we do. In fact, that\u2019s an excellent notion. In fact, it\u2019s a notion shared by all cultures. I say that because often it\u2019s just sort of put out there that one or two cultures in the world have that notion; it\u2019s shared by all cultures in the world. We always want our children to be at the centre. One the great expressions of that is the UN convention and charter around the rights of the child. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EIn particular, I\u2019m asking that the Ministry of Social Development takes appropriate steps to ensure\u2014well, that the convention is understood but in particular, on top of that, I want to be really clear to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Carmel Sepuloni, that I\u2019m not suggesting that we incorporate the entire Convention on the Rights of the Child. That would be absurd. So being the minimalist that I am, except in words, I\u2019m suggesting that we indicate Article 8, which says, \u201CStates Parties undertake to respect the right of the child to preserve his or her identity, including nationality, name and family relations, as recognized by law without unlawful interference\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI think the particular context here is that it is very clear in UN law and in this convention\u2014one that this country has signed up to\u2014that a child needs to understand who they are. It is very clear that they have a nationality; in this case they\u2019re New Zealanders. And what\u2019s really fundamental to me is those family relations and the context\u2014and we have had some discussions in this Chamber around this bill\u2014but wider than that; actually acknowledging who one\u2019s mother or father is somewhat under challenge and, in particular, there is the suggestion that a father doesn\u2019t need to be named. I\u2019m not going to go into a full biology lesson, but fathers are relative\u2014I know there are some people who could be quite excited by these things. The key is that I think it is an important right that a child does know who their mother and father are, and particularly the latter because obviously they don\u2019t always have to be involved at the last. What\u2019s important is that efforts should be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI think I really want to stress that in suggesting this tabled amendment, it\u2019s not suggesting that it must\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0b2463a821e489092e9506dbb091b6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0b2463a821e489092e9506dbb091b6d\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to be taking my first ever call in the Chamber after giving my maiden speech yesterday. I do hope I do you justice, and I hope that you pull me up if I\u2019m not obeying the rules of the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a fantastic pleasure to be here taking a call on this bill. My colleagues have already spoken to a number of Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to jump straight into Part 3 of the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill. In particular, what struck me was clause 131, \u201CMeaning of suitable employment\u201D. Of course we all want people to be back on their feet as quickly as possible and gainfully employed, but this struck me as a little bit\u2014let me just explain clause 131. It\u2019s saying that the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) is satisfied that the employment is suitable for the person to undertake for the specific number of hours per week. That\u2019s part of what\u2019s called the work test, which goes a back a few clauses to clause 125, where beneficiaries must satisfy a work test. So which type of beneficiaries? We\u2019re talking about job seekers: people who get the jobseeker support, and people who get the jobseeker support for health conditions, including the spouse and partner as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ESo what are some of the questions that I\u2019ve thought about in this? The first is that there\u2019s no guidance around what is suitable employment for this person. So suitable employment might depend, in fact, on what their skill set is, and also the external factors surrounding where this person lives, what part of New Zealand they live in. I think that there\u2019s a bit of hesitation or a lack of guidance for the ministry on what suitable employment is, so I definitely want to ask the Minister to explain what the role of suitable employment is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThis brings me to my colleague the Hon Louise Upston, and I\u2019m very happy to see a tabled amendment in her name here, which is an amendment to clause 131. It\u2019s great to be here to speak on behalf of her amendment, to talk to this clause. So what is her tabled amendment about? Essentially, she is calling for subclause (1) to be added to clause 131, so that \u201C(1) MSD must have regard to regional skills shortages, seasonal work and the rate of unemployment when determining if employment is suitable.\u201D This is important because, of course, the reason employment is suitable is required for the work test. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ELet me just give you a couple of examples. I\u2019m from Auckland, which is a big urban city, and some of the skills shortages there are more around manufacturing, high-end IT skills, but they may not be the same sort of skills that are required in some regional areas. For example, my colleague the Hon Louise Upston is from Taup\u014D, and it\u2019s likely that there\u2019s not a big IT sector in Taup\u014D, so there\u2019s not going to be a massive skills shortage of IT skills in Taup\u014D. So I just think that this bill requires some regional specifications, and so that\u2019s why I commend my colleague the Hon Louise Upston for submitting this amendment to make sure that this bill takes account of localised factors, such as urban versus rural. I just commend that for clause 131.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got about 30 seconds left. [Interruption] I\u2019m trying to do my best. Otherwise, look\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220795105fb4024b419ee02979be527de3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t weaken now. Don\u2019t weaken now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aceffc0435345ab8affaf68e0dc8c0e\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, this is my first ever call, and it\u2019s just such a pleasure. I didn\u2019t know SOPs were this big. This is over 500 pages\u2014and I only just learnt what an SOP is the other day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00221748426f3b5c429fae4d3ff6dca96842\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221748426f3b5c429fae4d3ff6dca96842\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E I thought I\u2019d take a call following the four speakers that have spoken on this bill, just to address some of the issues that they\u2019ve raised, and also to speak to some of the Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs) that have been referred to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI will start by just saying to the member that just spoke, Dan Bidois, that the entire 500 pages is the entire bill with the amendments in it. It keeps getting referred to as if it\u2019s an entire amendment, but it is actually the whole bill with amendments inside it. If we had tried to separate it out, it would have been incredibly confusing, so that\u2019s why it\u2019s 500 pages long; it\u2019s not 500 pages of changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThere were four tabled amendments that were referenced by the previous four speakers: two that have been put up by the Hon Louise Upston, one that\u2019s been put forward by Simon O\u2019Connor, and one that\u2019s been put up by Parmjeet Parmar. The thing that they all have in common, before I go into detail about why we won\u2019t be supporting them or why I don\u2019t support them, is that all of them are not policy-neutral. We\u2019ve been quite clear from the start that we are making this a truly policy-neutral rewrite. That wording was actually the wording of the previous Government in respect to this bill, but the reality was that there were policy changes in it, and so this Government has made an honest attempt to make this policy-neutral. Basically, the SOPs that I\u2019ve seen that have been put forward don\u2019t tick that box immediately, therefore can\u2019t be supported, because they are policy changes and we are not supporting policy changes in a policy-neutral rewrite of the Social Security Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI will speak to some of the specific ones that have been raised. Simon O\u2019Connor has a tabled amendment up that he, himself, referred to, which was to insert new clause 91A. What he\u2019s asked for, as I said, is not only not policy-neutral but it\u2019s not actually within the scope of the bill or the purpose of the Social Security Act. We would need to rewrite the purpose of the Social Security Act and make major changes to the actual piece of legislation to make his tabled amendment relevant to what we\u2019re discussing here in the Chamber today, and I think there is no desire across the committee for that to happen. So without going any further, that\u2019s really all that can be said for that particular tabled amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got the Hon Louise Upston, who has a tabled amendment up which wants to insert new clause 93(b), which would create exemptions to the winter energy payment. Firstly, as I said, that\u2019s not policy-neutral. The serious concern I have about it, apart from the fact it\u2019s not policy-neutral, is that it would be completely out of line with other supplementary assistance\u2014so the accommodation supplement and disability allowance, which, like the winter energy payment, can only continue for a 28-day absence. So this is about consistency. If we were to do what the honourable member Louise Upston was asking, then we would be continuing to make a mess of the social security legislation, when this whole exercise is about cleaning it up. So we don\u2019t want those inconsistencies. There are other reasons why we couldn\u2019t support it, but the two reasons I\u2019ve given are very clear, so I will leave it at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EMoving to Louise Upston\u2019s other tabled amendment that has been put forward, which would require the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) to \u201Chave regard to regional skills shortages, seasonal work and rate of unemployment when determining if employment is suitable.\u201D Actually, this is some of the work that this Government is quite serious about, particularly with the work that we\u2019re doing around our regional growth fund and with respect to skills shortages that are taking place, not only through MSD but also in portfolios like immigration. So there\u2019s a lot of work already happening in this space, but, as I said, it actually wouldn\u2019t be policy-neutral, so we\u2019re not going to insert that here, and there are a number of other reasons which I won\u2019t go into. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThen there\u2019s one other that was discussed. I think it was the member Parmjeet Parmar\u2019s tabled amendment. This was in regards to her wanting to require a newborn\u2019s responsible practitioner\u2014I\u2019m assuming midwife or other medical professional\u2014to consult with the newborn\u2019s mother about which general practice to nominate as the newborn\u2019s primary healthcare provider. There are a few other elements to it. It\u2019s not only not policy-neutral; it\u2019s not within scope of this bill. That is a health matter, not something that sits with the social security legislation. There is also\u2014can I just state that clause 120 does already set out what was introduced by the previous Government, which was a social obligation for beneficiaries with children to take all reasonable steps to ensure their children are enrolled with a primary healthcare provider. So I think that really covers off the concern that the member Parmjeet Parmar had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo those are the reasons that I am not supportive of the SOPs that have been mentioned so far during this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e81956a012d14103a3de957a4c61f9b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e81956a012d14103a3de957a4c61f9b7\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My amendment, which has been submitted in my name, to the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill proposes an amendment to clause 166, which is found at the very end of Part 3 of the bill. It amends clause 166(2) so that it states, \u201CThe Health and Safety at Work Act 2015; the Human Rights Act 1993; and the Health and Disability Act 2000 apply to P,\u201D. The reason for that is because it talks in that part of the bill, in clause 166, about the application of the health and safety legislation, and I just wanted to highlight that the need to apply the consideration to people with disabilities is an extremely important part of their rehabilitation, their opportunity to enter the workforce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI know that New Zealand has made huge strides over the last few years in how our communities, and our country, in fact, think about disabilities, people with disabilities, and how disabled people live. We\u2019re a country that\u2019s been at the forefront of some of these issues internationally. For example, we were instrumental in passing the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. There are 1.1 million people in New Zealand who experience some form of disability, so it\u2019s a far from insignificant number. And we are also one of the few countries in the world to recognise New Zealand Sign Language as an official language of our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI draw our attention to New Zealander Robert Martin. He\u2019s a living example of what can happen when a disabled person is supported by their community and given a chance to enter the workforce, and he has become a member of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2299b4ade974a70a45ec88510494150\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, but she seems to be talking about an amendment that we don\u2019t have yet. Has she recently\u2014can you tell us which amendment that is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022844a8e26e2a949148eea9e1a7c71eefd\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want me to bring it out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204010ca6171e4aa181bab6033f7a4cfd\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Read it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228db7265bb31b4186b4bf6a625d588bbd\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH\u003C/span\u003E: I did read it when I started. It was to amend clause 166(2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd77b780dbad4c6594900f70d55aeef4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: We don\u2019t have a copy of that. Has it not yet been submitted to the office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc89ce19a54e47f39282aadac0ead7c8\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I believe so. I\u2019ll sign it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220497027a9f1c4a8ea27a6b166337431f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I\u2019ll take another call right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u00224b7209afb0e44a719ef063882ccb9aed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b7209afb0e44a719ef063882ccb9aed\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This time I want to talk to my amendment\u2014this is a different amendment\u2014to clause 146, in Part 3. This amendment to clause 146 inserts new subclause (1)(a). This is in line with what is already there in clause 146, because clause 146 is headed, \u201CPerson who fails to comply with the requirement to attend interview is subject to sanction\u201D. In that, there are two subclauses and these two subclauses don\u2019t cover the policy that I want to see introduced here, because this is about providing cover for all aspects when someone is subject to sanction. So we want to make sure that the sanctions are not applied without having a full review of that person that goes for an interview. It\u2019s really unfair for that person if any kind of sanction is applied without providing the full support that a person might need when that person turns up for an interview.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003ESo in clause 146 what we see in the first subclause is that, \u201CA person (P) is subject to a sanction \u2026 if MSD is satisfied that [the person] has failed, without a good and sufficient reason, to comply with a requirement under section 144(4) to attend an interview.\u201D There is a provision for young people not to have this sanction. So my amendment is to see that a person not only attends the interview but is also actively involved in the process; the person is prepared and is ready to work. It\u2019s important that person doesn\u2019t only attend the interview but they are also open to accepting the role and undertake the interview in good faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EIn this call, I want to commend the work that the Ministry of Social Development staff do and the work that Work and Income do, because they work really hard to help people get into employment. We know that one of the roles of our welfare system is to be a safety net. People can fall back on the welfare system if they don\u2019t have any source of income\u2014it could be for several circumstances. But when a person is fit and is capable of getting back into employment, then Work and Income plays a very important role in helping people get into employment. I have heard that businesses get calls from Work and Income case managers asking if there are any vacancies. Then what happens is that if they find a suitable match in their database\u2014someone who is on a benefit who can get to work\u2014they send that person for an interview.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EI think it becomes really important to know what happened in an interview if the role is declined\u2014if that interviewee is declined for the opening that was available. It is really unfair for the interviewee to not know what went wrong during the interview process and why the job was not offered to that interviewee. So what my amendment is saying is that the case manager should be actually requesting an assessment report from the potential employer to see that the person was willing to take up the role and was prepared for the interview. With that, what will then happen is that before the sanction is applied on that person for some reason, the case manager can see if that individual needs any help to be prepared for an interview.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe know that people can be on a benefit for a long time for several reasons. It could be intergenerational or it could be because they have gone on a benefit and they have somehow lacked motivation to get back into employment and they are not sure how to be prepared for an interview. So this assessment report will help the interviewee when they turn up again for an interview. It will help them to be fully ready to take up that job, and show the willingness to take up a job, because if the potential employer is declining that interviewee because the interviewee expressed unwillingness to take up the role, or because some other indication was given in the interview, then the intention of that person to be in employment is not fully proven.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EBefore I finish, I want to quickly respond to the call that the Minister in the chair took on my amendment to clause 120. Clause 120 applies to people that are on a benefit, and my amendment, which inserts subclause (3) would mean that the provision about newborn enrolment with general practitioners would apply for all parents. That should not be only for people that are on a benefit. Why can\u2019t it be extended to everybody? I did hear the Minister say that they want to keep it policy-neutral\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u00229ec3e3932e1d4fa8baa058892fa50fa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ec3e3932e1d4fa8baa058892fa50fa3\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Before I speak on a proposed amendment to clause 167 in Part 3, I just want to address some of the comments that were made by the Minister in the chair in regards to the amendment to insert clause 93(b) that I spoke to in the name of the Hon Louise Upston. Her comments were that\u2014the fact that this amendment was not in line with the intent of being policy-neutral. I would have to say that this amendment, all it does is actually extend the aspect of what are some of the grounds in which there can be an exemption. So it wasn\u2019t changing the intent of the policy; actually, it was in line with it. It was actually giving clarity in regards to steps to explain the reasons why a beneficiary may have been absent. So I still don\u2019t understand, as the Minister has said, where that amendment is a change in the direction of the policy, when it was just a simple amendment to the current intent of the policy. I just wanted to make a brief remark on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EMy contribution at this time is in regard to Part 3 and the amendment to clause 167. It\u2019s amending clause 167, on page 113. Currently, under that, the amendment says, \u201C \u2018Obligations suspended where MSD has exercised discretion to pay benefit while beneficiary overseas\u2019, under subclause (2) insert new subclause (3) \u2026\u201D The new subclause that I would like to insert\u2014and before I do that, I\u2019ll just read the other two clauses that are there. Clause 167(1): \u201CThis section applies if MSD has exercised its discretion under any regulations made under section 415 \u2026\u201D; clause 167(2): \u201CDuring the period of absence for which the benefit is paid, [a person] is not required to comply with his or her work test or work-preparation obligations or young person or young parent obligations.\u201D So subclause (3), proposed by this amendment, would then include: \u201CAny person is exempt from the obligations in Sections 163, 164 and the regulations under section 415 should they be overseas for the purpose of attempting to gain access to an overseas pension or equivalent scheme\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EAnd I put this forward for a number of reasons. One of them is that I\u2019ve had a number of constituents that have come to see me in my office who have talked about the fact that, although they may have worked overseas\u2014and one of the examples of the countries that they worked in was Canada\u2014and while there are social security agreements with that country, they\u2019ve often had difficulties in working with officials to try to work out the rough calculation in regard to the proportion of the social security agreement from Canada to that in New Zealand and to try to see how they can work out those jurisdictions. And so one of the challenges they\u2019ve often talked about is the time and residency in that country and trying to work that through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a genuine concern that has been raised\u2014and not just one; I\u2019ve had three of them that have come over the period of time through my office who have talked about some of these challenges. And so I feel that this amendment is genuine in the sense of being able to give a provision so that it allows for discretion. And the discretion that the clause is talking about is where a person can be exempt from those obligations in clauses 163 and 164 and for the purpose of attempting to gain access to an overseas pension or equivalent scheme. Even in the Social Services and Community Committee, we\u2019ve been talking about the sense that social security agreements that are currently with ten countries\u2014and in those ten countries, they then have to work out what the equivalent ratio is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo I hope that the Minister and officials will look into this amendment. I think it\u2019s a genuine attempt to try and meet what is sometimes an anomaly inside the system, where people who have genuinely lived in New Zealand for a period of time then go on to work overseas and then, because of that, when they\u2019ve tried to come back and tried to work out their entitlements, they\u2019ve often had to return back to those countries to try and do that. And we hope that they won\u2019t be penalised because of that and that they\u2019ll have the opportunity to be able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo I put forward this amendment. I hope the Minister will take a call, when she does, to respond to that. And, again, as I said before, this is not a change in the direction of the policy; this is an addition to it to meet the concerns about this that have genuinely been raised with constituents in our community, and so I hope that the Minister will take a call on this at some stage, respond to this amendment, and more than just saying that it\u2019s not in line with the policy, I\u2019d like to hear as to what in particular the Minister sees\u2014advice from her officials\u2014that means that this is not in line with a policy-neutral approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5156e93d84f45fc89f6859aca02992e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5156e93d84f45fc89f6859aca02992e\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E Just speaking to the Hon Alfred Ngaro\u2019s tabled amendment, again, there\u2019s no point going any further if the amendments that are going up are not proposals that are policy-neutral, because we\u2019re not looking to change policy in this rewrite. So I need to make that really clear, and from what I can see of the amendment that he\u2019s discussing, it would create the same inconsistencies that I mentioned earlier with respect to the winter energy payment tabled amendment that\u2019s been put up by the honourable member Louise Upston. So it really stops there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe member Parmjeet Parmar has also discussed an amendment that she\u2019s put forward under her name, which would amend clause 146 to insert a new clause 146(1)(a). Again, it\u2019s not policy-neutral. But I also want to speak to this one, because it\u2019s probably one of the strangest amendments that I\u2019ve seen put forward, asking that there be an expectation that, when someone goes for a job interview, a report back be given to the case manager on how well they did and whether they were prepared for the interview and whether they were engaged during the interview process. Well, I\u2019d really like\u2014no, actually, I don\u2019t want to know. A number of issues arise for me, from hearing that, but, clearly, an interview is subjective, and the assumption that that member is making by putting this amendment forward is that people would not prepare or would not be committed to the interview. We know, though, that not everybody does well during interviews; it\u2019s a very difficult process to engage in, and, actually, many politicians in this House, including myself, have failed in interviews at certain points in time\u2014so, very subjective, very unnecessary. Not only is it not policy-neutral, as I said; it\u2019s a strange proposal, and it\u2019s been put forward with no thought of what you would do if the person actually was deemed to have failed the interview process, which would be very hard to measure in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo I think if we\u2019re going to continue with the committee stage of this bill, some serious amendments would be welcome, because, actually, that is not one that I would consider a serious contender, in terms of something that anyone in this committee could consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u00220dcc16bde7794e49999b822a3fb23144\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220dcc16bde7794e49999b822a3fb23144\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Assistant Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00224fc3133e51714846a5eb0f89fa3ea006\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fc3133e51714846a5eb0f89fa3ea006\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll have another go at speaking to my amendment, and hopefully I\u2019ve got the process right this time. My amendment refers to Part 3\u2014right towards the end, in the \u201CMiscellaneous\u201D section\u2014clause 166. It\u2019s the \u201CApplication of health and safety legislation, etc\u201D. And my amendment to clause 166 amends subclause (2), on page 113: \u201CThe Health and Safety at Work Act 2015 and the Human Rights Act 1993 apply \u2026\u201D. I request that the Minister gives consideration to also including the New Zealand Public Health and Disability Act of 2000, and the reason for that is to give credibility to and acknowledgment of the role that the disability sector plays in the workplace and the care that is needed when employing people with disabilities in the workplace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EOver the last few years, New Zealand has made huge and very important progress internationally in how we think about our disabled people and how our disabled people live in this country. And, as I said before, we are a country that has been at the forefront of some of the changes in relating to disabled people. For example, we were instrumental in passing the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. There are 1.1 million people in this country who experience some form of disability. And we\u2019re also one of the few countries in the world to recognise sign language as an official language of our country. And that\u2019s demonstrated to us even in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI draw our attention too to New Zealander Robert Martin. Now, Robert Martin is a living example of what can happen when a disabled person is given the opportunity to fully participate in his community and in a workplace. And he\u2019s begun work now as a member of the United Nations advisory committee on the rights of disabled people. Robert Martin was a baby who was put into an institution because he was handicapped. He was hidden away from the public. He was out of sight and out of mind. Robert has an intellectual disability, but as an adult he has become a very strong advocate for the disabled community here in New Zealand and now throughout the world. And, of course, he\u2019s got the distinction of being the very first person with an intellectual disability to become a member of the United Nations committee. He\u2019s representing New Zealand in Geneva and advocating for disabled people around the world, and I know there\u2019s a very proud member of Parliament here who has Robert in her electorate in Whanganui.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EDisabled people simply want the opportunity to participate and have a life like anyone else with their families and be part of a community and be part of a workplace, and they also want choices. They want choices in how they live their lives and how they participate in a workforce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to quote some stats here from the labour force participation rate. Disabled people participating in the labour force\u201425.2 percent; whereas non-disabled\u201472.6 percent. And I just want to acknowledge the work of the former Minister, the Hon Nicky Wagner, who did a huge amount of work in advocating for people with disabilities. I know the work that happened in Christchurch in getting 300 people into work, in connecting them with businesses in Christchurch, was a huge step forward, and, in fact, it was so successful down there in Christchurch that it was oversubscribed\u2014it actually got more people into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESo my amendment, simply, draws attention and asks for recognition of people with disabilities so that they can be fully integrated into the workforce. We know there\u2019s a lot of support and advocacy that is done for people with disabilities, but we also want to make sure that they\u2019re well-supported as job seekers here in New Zealand. I thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022511a82e37bd348328e8a3493959d9973\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022511a82e37bd348328e8a3493959d9973\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Assistant Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022d21d9b842fb843fc95099e544053cd50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d21d9b842fb843fc95099e544053cd50\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9041f67a1dd41b982fcd16cfcf96d89\u0022\u003EBarbara Kuriger\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211fa8df70b484a37b0ebedcd374f530e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I have started the question. I will finish it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002284fc5e19b0234f299a5647f99082155b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000487\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 25 in the name of the Hon Carmel Sepuloni to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222ea49bdbc601430c9a09a13869dac8ad\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000488\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Simon O\u2019Connor inserting new clause 91A be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000489\u0022\u003Ebefore the cross-heading above clause 92, insert:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000490\u0022\u003EObligations under United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000491\u0022\u003E91A\tMSD\u2019s actions must be consistent with United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000492\u0022\u003E(1)\tMSD must take reasonable and appropriate steps to ensure that its actions are consistent with those required by\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000493\u0022\u003E(a)\tthe United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000494\u0022\u003E(b)\tin particular, Article 8, clause 1 of that Convention, which requires that \u201CStates Parties undertake to respect the right of the child to preserve his or her identity, including nationality, name and family relations as recognized by law without unlawful interference\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000495\u0022\u003E(2)\tIn undertaking the obligation in subsection (1), MSD must undertake all necessary means to ensure a dependent child\u2019s identity, nationality, name, mother, father, whakapapa, and any other necessary family relationships are identified.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d4015e834dda45749284468931b42a1b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000496\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Hon Louise Upston to clause 93 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000497\u0022\u003Einsert new clause 93B:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000498\u0022\u003E93B\tA person may apply to the chief executive of the Ministry of Social Development for an exemption to 203A on the grounds of, for example:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000499\u0022\u003E(a)\tcaring for children who may be located overseas\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000500\u0022\u003E(b)\thealth conditions which require time in warmer conditions\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000501\u0022\u003E(c)\tserious illness to immediate family overseas.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002268c8a3b4569142168e23eed53d659d05\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000502\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Maureen Pugh to clause 97 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000503\u0022\u003Einsert new clause 97(1)(c):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000504\u0022\u003E(c)\tin the case of an offender being released from prison MSD must, no less than 4 weeks before release date, ensure that the offender is able to have access to entitlements upon release and assisted with bank account requirements.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002272c3984cb81c4c429d27b49e8ddaf811\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000505\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Simon O\u2019Connor inserting new clause 98A be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000506\u0022\u003Einsert new clause 98A:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000507\u0022\u003E98A\tBeneficiary must supply New Zealand Business Number\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000508\u0022\u003E(1)\tMSD may in writing request an applicant for a benefit or a beneficiary to provide evidence, to the satisfaction of MSD, of the New Zealand Business Number number of the applicant or beneficiary when relevant.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000509\u0022\u003E(2)\tMSD may refuse to grant a benefit and must suspend payment of a benefit if satisfactory evidence of the New Zealand Business Number of the applicant or the beneficiary is not received within 10 working days after the date on which the request is made (the deadline).\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000510\u0022\u003E(3)\tMSD may in writing extend the deadline if an applicant or a beneficiary provides a reasonable explanation for not providing the evidence within the deadline.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000511\u0022\u003E(4)\tThis section does not apply to a beneficiary who is unable to provide satisfactory evidence of the beneficiary\u2019s New Zealand Business Number within the deadline or extended deadline specified because of any health condition, injury, or disability.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c82e1ecadd694530b4b6a3c9fbdc7be5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000512\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Simon O\u2019Connor to clause 100 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000513\u0022\u003Einsert new clause 100(1)(a):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000514\u0022\u003E(a)\tThis notification must take place at least 10 working days prior to departure.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000515\u0022\u003E(b)\tClause 100(a) does not apply in emergency circumstances.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022314a137dddca4eb2927176ac3f40bc30\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000516\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Hon Alfred Ngaro to clause 119 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000517\u0022\u003Ereplace clause 119(1) with:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000518\u0022\u003E(1)\tA person to whom this section applies must take all reasonable steps to ensure that each dependent child aged between 6 and 15 years inclusively is enrolled at and regularly attends a registered school (as defined by regulations made under section 409).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002268e995aa959c4749a86e9fb1b0ae3106\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000519\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Parmjeet Parmar to clause 120 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000520\u0022\u003Einsert new clause 120(3):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000521\u0022\u003E(3)\tNewborn enrolment with general Practitioners\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000522\u0022\u003E(a)\tHow pre-enrolment request made\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000523\u0022\u003E\tA newborn\u2019s responsible practitioner must, before the newborn is discharged from the hospital or from maternity care,\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000524\u0022\u003E(i)\tconsult the newborn\u2019s mother and any other family members the responsible practitioner considers appropriate about which general practice to nominate as the newborn\u2019s primary health care provider; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000525\u0022\u003E(ii)\tsend a pre-enrolment request on behalf of the newborn to the nominated general practice; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000526\u0022\u003E(iii)\tensure that the request is entered into the maternity system.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228a0973b2812643789b11f7f316ae9e22\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000527\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Jo Hayes to clause 130 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000528\u0022\u003Einsert new clause 130(d):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000529\u0022\u003E(d)\tattend and participate in work experience for any opportunity of suitable employment to which the beneficiary is referred by MSD.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228d525efb4dbb46fd80da8914318972bf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000530\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Louise Upston to clause 131 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000531\u0022\u003Einsert the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000532\u0022\u003E(1)\tMSD must have regard to regional skill shortages, seasonal work and rate of unemployment when determining if employment is suitable.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002209c194f6c6a841418e84336d136df5c1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000533\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Parmjeet Parmar to clause 146 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000534\u0022\u003Ein clause 146, insert subclause (1A):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000535\u0022\u003E(1A)\tMSD may also ask for an assessment report of P\u2019s interview to determine if P was prepared for the interview and was engaged in the interview process.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e2299dfb07874ed282d81c4bd27767a8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000536\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Stuart Smith to clause 149 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000537\u0022\u003Ein clause 149(1), replace \u201Cmust also do the following things:\u201D with \u201Cmust fulfil the following requirements:\u201D, and insert after paragraph (d) the following new paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000538\u0022\u003E(e)\tensure that each dependant child under the age of 5 years has received their immunisations as listed under the National Immunisation Schedule.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f4bd56f490df446f9c7549476099aad3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000539\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Melissa Lee to clause 158 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000540\u0022\u003Einsert the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000541\u0022\u003E(3)\tNotwithstanding section (2), a person who has disclosed an overseas pension or equivalent scheme that is inaccessible from New Zealand is not compelled to travel overseas, by MSD or at their own costs, for the purposes of attempting to obtain an overseas pension that they may be eligible for.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002271e213641c084ac2983f4d3098c24738\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000542\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Melissa Lee to clause 163 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000543\u0022\u003Einsert the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000544\u0022\u003E(3)\tAny person who has an overseas pension or equivalent scheme but is unable to access it due to international differences in pension, superannuation and other such scheme policies is permitted to disclose this to MSD in lieu of the rate of the overseas pension that they cannot obtain.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b1273fe1e5b54d929f5567ffba2017ce\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000545\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Melissa Lee to clause 164 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000546\u0022\u003Einsert the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000547\u0022\u003E(4)\tMSD may not suspend a benefit if a person who fails to comply with a notice given under section 163 does so due to complications arising from an overseas pension or equivalent scheme being inaccessible from New Zealand.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002205821d02d62f4e0a944822a88342f056\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000548\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Maureen Pugh to clause 166 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000549\u0022\u003Ein subclause (2), replace \u201C2015 and the Human Rights Act 1993\u201D with \u201C2015; the Human Rights Act 1933; and the Health and Disability Act 2000\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226886625349dd49c58b10fef3bb1c1202\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000550\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Melissa Lee to clause 167 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000551\u0022\u003Einsert the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000552\u0022\u003E(3)\tAny person is exempt from the obligations in sections 163, 164 and the regulations under section 415 should they be overseas for the purpose of attempting to gain access to an overseas pension or equivalent scheme.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002256c4beb4a3ee48daa972798022a1ee97\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223d22285b3e3145d5905760e337fe3528\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e59e63dc28254ac7b8b5dc081d93eea7\u0022\u003EPart 4  Factors affecting benefits\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7ec21a870de45b1aa83aec5c1b18d13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7ec21a870de45b1aa83aec5c1b18d13\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014good choice, if I may say so. After that humble start, I\u2019ll proceed quickly to clause 188 within Part 4, being, obviously, within the proposed amendment on Supplementary Order Paper 25 to the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill. This is an important clause, and, indeed, an important part, because these are factors affecting benefits. In the case of clause 188, we\u2019re turning our minds to situations in which the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) may refuse or cancel a benefit of a person if that person is not ordinarily resident in New Zealand. So there are serious consequences for a person who is affected by this clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll speak to the amendment that I have in my name regarding that clause in detail in a moment, but first I\u2019d just like to note that the way that the clause operates is significant to the comments that I wish to make. First, subclause (1) talks about situations in which MSD can refuse to grant a benefit, cancel it, and so forth if a person is \u201Cnot ordinarily resident in New Zealand.\u201D Elsewhere, we can find some guidance as to what the phrase \u201Cnot ordinarily resident in New Zealand\u201D means. However, the importance of subclause (2) is that it provides an exception to that. In that sense, it\u2019s an exception to an exception. So we\u2019re talking about situations in which the section by which the MSD may refuse or cancel a benefit, and so forth, does not apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe paragraph labelled (a) currently reads \u201CNew Zealand superannuation payable to a person resident in a specified Pacific country under section 31 of the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act 2001\u201D, and then it adds some detail in brackets. So that\u2019s saying that the exception to the exception applies in such cases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe first aspect of my amendment focuses on the fact that the word \u201Cpayable\u201D actually has a narrow meaning in the sense that it does not necessarily capture a situation in which a person is already being paid New Zealand superannuation. Now, if we look in the context of the whole subclause, in the first paragraph, listed (aaa), which I note sounds like someone who is hard of hearing and has a stutter\u2014\u201CEh, eh, eh?\u201D\u2014we\u2019re talking about \u201CNew Zealand superannuation being paid\u201D. The next one, (a), is \u201CNew Zealand superannuation payable\u201D. The third paragraph, (ab), is \u201Ca veteran\u2019s pension being paid\u201D. Again, the distinction is not contained within that one clause in relation to a veterans pension that is \u201Cpayable\u201D, as is stated in the fourth paragraph, simply labelled \u201C(b)\u201D. Finally, in the next paragraph, (c), it is \u201Ca benefit payable under any reciprocity agreement\u201D\u2014to me that perhaps should be \u201Creciprocal agreement\u201D, which is why I stumbled perhaps a little\u2014\u201Cwith another country adopted by an order made under section 359\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo within that single section, we\u2019ve got a number of different ways in which we can see that the legislation deals with people who are receiving, or may be eligible to receive, such benefits as are listed within it. The significance is that in looking to apply this law, and if it were to be challenged by a person who\u2019s had the exception invoked upon them and their benefit stopped, notwithstanding that they are not ordinarily resident in New Zealand, we need the clarity, we need the breadth, and we need the certainty that says, in any of those situations, whether you are merely eligible to be receiving those payments or you are, in fact, receiving them, you are, in any case, able to claim the protection that is intended under the clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI do believe\u2014and I invite the Minister in the chair, Carmel Sepuloni, to agree or disagree with me as she will\u2014it is the intention of this provision to enable these sorts of broad exceptions, and, to that end, in each case, I believe we should see stated clearly \u201Cpayable or being paid\u201D. So that\u2019s the intent of the first aspect of my amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ETurning now to the second aspect, but in the same subclause, we see, under the words \u201Cof that Act\u201D, referring specifically to the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act\u2014[Bell rung] Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity to continue this contribution. Addressing the second part of that amendment, the reason that I\u2019m proposing to the Minister that we have additional wording there is, again, for certainty but also flexibility in a situation in which that might arise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, currently, to recap in terms of the meaning of that particular subclause, we\u2019re talking about New Zealand superannuation that is payable, or, as I\u2019ve proposed a moment ago, being paid, to a person who is in a specified Pacific country. I\u2019ll just pause for a moment to note that there are good reasons that we allow such exemptions to people in those certain Pacific countries, reflecting the nature of our relationship in New Zealand with peoples of those countries. Referring, however, to that particular Act and, actually, within it\u2014more specifically, section 31 of that Act\u2014we\u2019re not allowing ourselves, as a legislature, if we pass it in that form without my amendment, to contemplate that there might be a situation in which an equivalent piece of legislation comes onto the statute book and replaces that. And yet, in that situation, what we would want to happen, I\u2019m sure\u2014I\u2019m sure the Minister intends that to be the case, and I can see it in her eyes now. The intention, as I say, is that this equivalent provision would still actually apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe wording of my amendment, that second part of it, is very deliberate and very specific along those lines. I have said, or proposed to say, \u201Cor under any other equivalent legislative provision in replacement thereof\u201D. The word \u201Cor\u201D obviously indicates the flexibility. We want that situation not only where the current legislation being referred to remains in force but also contemplating that a future Parliament might change that, and not wanting to bind the hands of a future Parliament. The words \u201Cany other\u201D indicate that, actually, we want to be expansive in our idea of how we can sort of contemplate that this might arise, such that this would be replaced, and I don\u2019t imagine that this Parliament would pass legislation to exclude the benefit of those who are in other Pacific countries that meet the criteria, but it is possible. So if we say \u201Cany other equivalent legislation\u201D then we cover ourselves to the maximum extent possible and there are no unintended consequences in terms of people in those nations but otherwise applicable to this Act being excluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe next little piece of wording within my amendment that I\u2019d like to focus on is the phrase \u201Clegislative provision\u201D. You can imagine that I spent quite some time thinking about how better to express my very earnest desire not to have any unintended consequences as far as that\u2019s concerned, and I settled eventually on the phrase \u201Clegislative provision\u201D because, again, I\u2019m desiring to be as broad as possible so far as that is concerned. If I had said \u201Canother Act\u201D, if I\u2019d said \u201Ca statute\u201D, then I would be indicating that it would only be another piece of primary legislation that would trigger this effective alternate reality, if I could put it like that, where this exception to the exception could apply. Instead, I say \u201Clegislative provision\u201D because I also want to include the notion that a regulation made under the authority of this House but by a Minister\u2014technically, of course, by the Governor-General under Order in Council, but, in any case, a legislative provision that is not primary legislation. Of course, regulations, as we all know, no doubt, are legislation too\u2014they\u2019re secondary legislation, and, of course, we have such a thing as tertiary legislation, so I note, again, with the intention that any relevant and equivalent provision would actually be caught by this change that I\u2019m proposing today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I conclude with the hope, indeed, the desire, that the Minister will be able to speak to that and just to confirm, in the first instance, that her intention is, as I\u2019ve expressed it to be, as I genuinely think it is, no doubt, in good faith\u2014the Minister is intending that as many people who are intended to be eligible will be eligible. So it is that I\u2019m making this proposal, first, that not only people who are in fact being paid or eligible to be paid but also both of those things\u2014and also so that any legislative changes that are made don\u2019t inadvertently exclude the intent of the section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9fe4364b02b4b02b9539c8319ce20ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9fe4364b02b4b02b9539c8319ce20ac\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E OK, well, this is the only amendment I\u2019ve seen for this part so far, and I do want to commend Chris Penk, because he has brought an amendment here that is so incredibly policy-neutral that it does nothing. Effectively, what you\u2019ve got here, in terms of what he\u2019s trying to do\u2014it doesn\u2019t change anything. Adding \u201Cthat is being paid\u201D does not add anything, as in order to be paid, it must be payable in the first place. So, actually, it doesn\u2019t add anything new. It is so neutral that it changes nothing, and so therefore it is redundant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe second part of it, in terms of the member wanting to futureproof with respect to any changes that might be made to secondary legislation or through regulation\u2014the reality is that if those changes are made, then any other additional changes that need to be made throughout the legislation are also looked at. So there\u2019s no need to futureproof it, because that can be done at the time those hypothetical changes would be made. I will just end it at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022503596e3b14145cbbba6f6f384d10554\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022503596e3b14145cbbba6f6f384d10554\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to be able to take a call on the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill. I\u2019ve got a few questions that I would like to ask in regards to Part 4, but, firstly, I just thought that Chris Penk made an excellent contribution in relation to his amendment, and I was a little uncertain around what the Minister, Carmel Sepuloni, means by policy-neutral, because his amendment is an excellent one, and it is policy-neutral. Earlier on this afternoon, I heard the Minister complaining about amendments not being policy-neutral, and now we get one which is policy-neutral but it\u2019s so policy-neutral that it\u2019s not a good one!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo I think the House would benefit from some description as to what the Minister determines to be policy-neutral and what the Minister doesn\u2019t determine to be policy-neutral, because I think there\u2019s a bit of confusion being given by the Minister. We\u2019ve got a number of amendments, and these relate to the bill very clearly\u2014trying to improve it, trying to make it better. We want to ensure that this legislation is put through in the best possible form, as any good Opposition would want to do, so having a definition of what policy-neutral means would help us and assist us in this debate as it continues, and I\u2019m sure it will continue for quite some time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI have a couple of questions, and my questions relate to clauses 203 and 203A. These clauses relate to benefits not being payable while a beneficiary is absent from New Zealand. Rightfully so, there are some exceptions to this rule. Those exceptions relate to those who are receiving New Zealand superannuation, veterans support, and any reciprocal agreement with another country. So there\u2019s a number of exceptions to that rule. And then a new clause has been added in by Supplementary Order Paper 25, section 203A, which relates to the winter energy payment. There are a few questions that I\u2019d like to ask. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EMy first question is whether that\u2019s a policy-neutral change which has been made by the Government, because that\u2019s a big debate\u2014it\u2019s a big debate, the policy behind the winter energy payment. The Minister has made it very clear that this bill is not about changing policy\u2014it\u2019s policy-neutral\u2014however, that was a budgetary measure which was put through. The Opposition opposed it. It was an election promise. There is a lot of debate over whether it should be. I mean, we had questions in question time over this issue. So to have something which has been questioned about in question time by the Opposition, and then to argue that it\u2019s policy-neutral is something which I think is a little bit of a stretch, and I would like the Minister to clarify whether this section is policy-neutral, and, if so, why it is policy-neutral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa02dc5b8d3f4aac802416f0934916cb\u0022\u003EGreg O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re confusing it with being policies-neutral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d29cf5f7033d4debaa78b8f42c185a65\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019ve got very weird policies on the other side of the House, don\u2019t you, Mr Greg O\u2019Connor? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo the next question I\u2019d like to ask is around why the decision was made for it to be four weeks during the winter period. So if someone is eligible and receiving it\u2014there\u2019s the opt-out clause there as well, but if someone is receiving it and they leave the country for four weeks, then they become non-eligible. So why was the decision made for four weeks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI guess that flows on to my second question, which is: how is that measured? Is there a registrar for registering that you\u2019re going to be overseas? Is that information picked up by customs? I\u2019d find it helpful if the Minister could clarify how that information is collected and how the ministry or the department\u2014I think it\u2019s the chief executive has to be satisfied. In clause 203A(2)(b): \u201Cthe chief executive is satisfied that the 1 or more absences do not affect the beneficiary\u2019s eligibility for the payment under section 65C.\u201D So I\u2019d appreciate some guidance from the Minister on how the chief executive is satisfied in relation to the winter energy payment\u2014that they know that the person has been away for four weeks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo there are a number of questions, but basically it\u2019s the process for the information in relation to the winter energy payment. I guess, what measures are in place to ensure that the payment is then stopped? Does that automatically happen? Because I understand that you don\u2019t automatically opt out; you have to physically opt out. It\u2019s not an opt-in scheme; it\u2019s an opt-out scheme. So is someone warned or are they given a letter to say that they are no longer going to receive that payment from a particular time? So there\u2019s a number of questions around how that then affects their benefit. Is it automatically cut? What is the measure? Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002225bf0ab9f147427499f3b200671d37ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225bf0ab9f147427499f3b200671d37ae\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just be quickly speaking to some of the factors. I\u2019m a little bit confused about the issues the member Simeon Brown has raised, as I\u2019m not entirely sure if they lie with Part 4, but I will respond to some of them. With respect to why the 28 days was settled upon for absence overseas, it was because that\u2019s consistent with other policies. So currently you need to inform if you are going to be overseas for 28 days with respect to the disability allowance and accommodation supplement as well. So this is about consistency, and that\u2019s what we want to ensure that we have with our social security legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EHe has asked how introducing the winter energy payment could be deemed policy-neutral. Keep in mind that at the time the previous Government did the rewrite, the winter energy payment didn\u2019t exist. It was something that was introduced by this Government, so of course it has to factor into the legislation; that\u2019s just an absolute necessity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAnd, also, he has asked about how people will inform if they\u2019ve been overseas. Well, it\u2019s really interesting that you ask that question, because the process that we\u2019ve undertaken to ensure that people are informed about the winter energy payment and what they\u2019re entitled to has really significantly increased the number of people informing the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) of things like the fact that they will be overseas. So, with regard to the winter energy payment, letters went out to everyone. On an average week prior to that letter going out, MSD was being informed of, on average, 125 people who were saying they were going to be leaving the country for 28 days or longer. And following that letter, it\u2019s increased to 800 per week that are contacting MSD to let them know that they\u2019ll go overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo in many ways this has been a bit of an awareness-raising exercise, and, probably, prior to this many didn\u2019t know that they were supposed to inform MSD of the fact that they were going away. So I think that that is an indication and a lesson to all of us that we do need to keep people informed about how they maintain eligibility, because not everyone knows that. So this exercise has been very successful in doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EGoing back to Part 4, because, as I said, I\u2019m not really sure if Simeon Brown was speaking to Part 4\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f57e20a2cc65463faa800cb5b49a0933\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Section 203\u2014have you read your Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223acfbedd15a64ab1ad1ea11306e89e82\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I do want to just cover off what are the essential changes in this rewrite that you would think\u2014that we would think\u2014that the Opposition would be interested in, but Simeon Brown is yelling out, unnecessarily, things that are irrelevant to this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo, as I said, what is important to note is that Part 4 outlines provisions and factors affecting benefits. The bill as introduced contains two minor and technical changes which we would assume that the Opposition would be speaking to. That is, clarifying that where a non-beneficiary client has an outstanding warrant for their arrest and is a risk to public safety, their supplementary assistance will be stopped immediately with no 50 percent protection for any dependent children. And the term \u201Cshared custody of a dependent child\u201D has been updated to \u201Cshared care\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ECan I just say that this is a really good indication of the good faith in which we came into this, because some of the policies that exist in the legislation as part of the previous Government\u2019s administering of the social development sector are not necessarily things that we agree with, but when we are undertaking a policy-neutral rewrite, that is not the time to turn all of that upside down. So some of these measures that are in here that we are tidying up but not necessarily changing to any great extent\u2014or not changing to any great extent\u2014may be things that are considered as part of the welfare overhaul. Because, as I said, it\u2019s not that we agree with every policy that\u2019s in here, but during a policy-neutral rewrite\u2014that is not the time to try and make those changes. So that is the good faith in which we entered this exercise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u002201c5a37d2a004cd0b5e636bbe0c6a8cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201c5a37d2a004cd0b5e636bbe0c6a8cd\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Oh! Makes a change, Alfred. Hey, thank you very much. Look, two things need to be very quickly noted to the Minister who\u2019s just resumed her chair\u2014and thank you for her response to Simeon Brown. Mr Brown was referring to clause 203, which sits within Part 4. I think it\u2019s incorrect to be suggesting that his discussion about the \u201CGeneral rule: benefit not payable while beneficiary absent from New Zealand\u201D is out of scope. That isn\u2019t correct, nor is it out of part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESecondly, as my contribution will indicate, there\u2019s more to Part 4 in terms of changes than simply the two that the Minister has pointed out. I\u2019ll be tabling a number of Supplementary Order Papers (SOP)\u2014and I know that other colleagues are at the moment\u2014around this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo I want to spend a little bit of time, if I might, in Part 4 on clause 192, just to help the Minister there\u2014192 in Part 4, before clause 203, which is also in Part 4. This is to do with the \u201CBeneficiary resident in institution for treatment of alcoholism or drug addiction\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022479815dcbf634632bb6c2215ecc1648d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the AA, eh?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d35da85908c84e82a94e208092ffee63\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: So it\u2019s not the AA, eh, which is referred to earlier by Christopher Penk. What is important is that the changes being made\u2014and I suppose I\u2019m just wanting to seek some clarity from the Minister, which may take the time over the dinner break\u2014is they have removed in the SOP the reference to the Alcoholism and Drug Addiction Act 1966 and also reference to the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1992, and to replace it, which I think is well-meaning, with the Substance Addiction (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 2017. I think the intention of the Minister is obviously to apply what is seen as a more updated Act in this space. I am wondering, as the former chair of the Health Committee who stewarded the Substance Addiction (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Bill through the House, that there may be at least two misunderstandings at play that would require some alteration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo I have SOP 34 tabled at the moment, which is suggesting we go back to the original wording. That is, that we have clause 192 referencing the Alcoholism and Drug Addiction Act 1966 and the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1992. It\u2019s possible that a further SOP might be needed in order to make sure we can bring in the Substance Addiction (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 2017. As I say, there are two important factors which need to be addressed. One is timing of the substance addiction Act of 2017. The second is a fuller understanding of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230ca985f1e7e4f7c9cc119496a1f2b26\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the member the time has come for me to leave the chair for the dinner break. Committee will resume at 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022decbf066a42340c4adeb3eb371665f64\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Colleagues, the House is resumed in committee for the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill. Before the dinner break, we were debating Part 4. Simon O\u2019Connor had the call, and he has two minutes and two seconds remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e27d6cc3a1044e47a2b23425ce7e0e25\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll take it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272bc4c3fd1574d6fbce3bf99bfd341ee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Simon O\u2019Connor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216a81d119a1343b3af62b8c991abcf96\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. I\u2019m not sure that\u2019ll be the best decision of the night, but I\u2019m pleased you have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI was talking on Part 4, clause 192(3) in particular. It was around the decision of the Minister to change references to the Alcoholism and Drug Addiction Act 1966 and the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1992 and to instead replace it with the Substance Addiction (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 2017. And I was signalling to the Minister in the chair, Carmel Sepuloni, before the bell rang that I had two particular issues to raise. None is particularly political; it\u2019s more just trying to get an understanding of whether the right decision has been made about bringing this more recent legislation in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI suspect it is simply a belief that this new substance addiction Act of 2017 is more timely and, therefore, will help around the treatment of alcoholism or drug addiction, but the two elements are to do with the dates\u2014particularly when the substance addiction Act comes into force, and the second is around whether or not that new legislation is broad enough for, actually, the treatment of alcoholism and drug addiction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ll excuse me, Madam Chair, as I attempt to pull up, hopefully, still, my notes\u2014there we go. So the first element around this new bill is the timing. So I wouldn\u2019t mind the Minister clarifying, if they can. The Substance Addiction (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act was something that had come through the Health Committee when I was chair and, very importantly, a number of elements of that legislation to do with the treatment around drug and alcohol, actually do not come into force until at least a year after Royal assent is given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re now switching to the legislation that\u2019s referenced here\u2014the substance addiction Act. The commencement date says \u201Cthis Act comes into force on the day that is the first anniversary of the date on which it receives the Royal assent.\u201D So I suppose what I would like some clarification from the Minister or her officials on, if possible, is just a complete understanding that, while rightly including the substance addiction Act of 2017 into this amendment, many parts of it, Minister, are actually not in play at the moment. They\u2019re not actually in force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESome sections are. Sections 4 and 86 through to 96, along with sections 116\u2014[Bell rung] Thank you very much. So some parts of this substance addiction Act are in force, but a goodly number are still not in force. So I suppose I think we want to avoid a situation where, through this social legislation rewrite bill, we\u2019re not referencing or an Act now which is not in force. And fundamentally, and I think rightly, we\u2019re here to try and treat those with alcohol and drug problems; you can\u2019t fully do that\u2014or someone can\u2019t fully do that\u2014under an Act which is not fully in force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe second element moves away from the date per se but to the nature of what this substance addiction Act is in comparison to the drug addiction Act of 1966. I think it\u2019s really important to understand\u2014and I\u2019m very happy to be corrected on this\u2014the substance addiction bill this Parliament passed is for the absolute top-end addicts. This is not an Act which is designed to help all people with drug and alcohol problems, and this is where I think we\u2019re running into slight problems, potentially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe social rewrite bill is using that substance addiction Act in terms of how we treat alcoholism and drugs. It is only designed, as a piece of law, to affect the absolute highest end drug addiction. We\u2019re not talking the alcoholic or the drug addict who goes to Alcoholics Anonymous, or something. We\u2019re talking about, if I might, someone who has neuroadaptation to the substance. This means someone whose brain chemistry has been so affected by alcohol that they can no longer function. They\u2019re craving for a substance, have had multiple unsuccessful efforts to control that substance, and, importantly, out of the Act, use the substance despite several harmful consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re talking about here, Minister\u2014and you may well know it already, so I\u2019m sorry to be presumptuous\u2014is someone with such an alcohol or drug dependency that they have literally fallen down the stairs multiple times, multiple fractures, and are continuing to try and get alcohol. So I suppose what I\u2019m highlighting to the committee is that it\u2019s good that it\u2019s been mentioned\u2014the substance addiction Act, here in the social rewrite bill in clause 192\u2014but it\u2019s only aimed at looking after a very small, very particular group of people. So perhaps if I put it another way, the Alcoholism and Drug Addiction Act is very broad. It provides and manifests ways to help people with those addictions right across the panoply of care, whereas the substance addiction one that has now been inserted does not. It is only focusing on a very narrow\u2014very narrow\u2014group of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd finally, which I think is important\u2014well, actually, it\u2019s the third one that\u2019s jumped to mind. A lot of it\u2019s actually about the detaining of people. The whole point of this substance addiction Act 2017 is to, effectively, detain a person who has such a high level of alcohol and drug abuse. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the intended aspect of this social security rewrite bill. I don\u2019t think the Minister, or anyone, is actually wanting that those coming to the Ministry of Social Development who are getting treatment for alcohol and drugs are going to be subject to that sort of high-level treatment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo, fundamentally, it\u2019s asking: why are we putting that particular Act in place? Why are we not keeping to the more general Act of 1966 around alcohol and drug harm? I think that\u2019s the general question. Then the specific questions, in three parts, are the dates and an appreciation that many elements of the substance addiction Act are not yet in force. They will become in force probably in about\u2014what are we in at the moment? July\u2014probably in September or October this year. I assume we might be up to about Part 7 of this rewrite bill by then, but I think it\u2019s important that it\u2019s in play.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe second part of it is, ultimately, an appreciation that the substance addiction Act is not for all alcoholics and drug users; it\u2019s for that absolute high end\u2014I probably could count, Minister, on two hands the number of people who fall within the ambit of that legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd then, finally, an appreciation that even if it\u2019s correct to have that Act referenced here instead of the drug addiction Act, it\u2019s about detaining New Zealanders in some ways, and it\u2019s something that the Health Committee really spent a lot of time over. It\u2019s about detaining people, in a sense, against their will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo it doesn\u2019t, to me, quite fit here in section 192\u2014that swapping out. I could imagine it would be part of it, but not a complete\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u002255f47e17c7c24ea69b6eb20aab730655\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255f47e17c7c24ea69b6eb20aab730655\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. As we are now debating in the committee Part 4 of this bill, I just want to reflect on comments that were actually made by the Minister in the chair, Carmel Sepuloni, just prior to the dinner break. And I suppose the comments created a little bit of a concern, but, also, I\u2019d be interested to get some clarity from the Minister, when she stands, to then address some of the Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs) and the issues that have been raised in regards to Part 4. She was reflecting on the welfare overhaul. She was talking about elements of the social security rewrite legislation that is before the committee, and then she also indicated that there are elements of it that she did not agree with; in fact, she was quite clear that, actually, they would change at a later time, but that at the moment they just needed to get through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to remind the Minister that the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill is the most significant rewriting of the legislation in a number of years. In order to be able to make those changes, I\u2019m just wondering whether the Minister can clarify what changes she would make, because I would think that she would take the opportunity now to be able to make those changes. So that\u2019s the first thing I\u2019d like to, sort of, see: whether the Minister can talk about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThe second thing that would be important, as we are now continuing the debate, is what\u2019s come up in responses from the Minister, in regards to her responses to SOPs that we\u2019ve put forward\u2014she\u2019s ruled them out because they are not policy-neutral. Yet, when our colleague here, Chris Penk, put forward an amendment that was policy-neutral, it was not acceptable. I know my colleague Simeon Brown asked the Minister\u2014and I hope that she will be able to take the opportunity to do that\u2014to clarify what she deems as being policy-neutral. So that we can continue to, sort of, look forward to our SOPs\u2014at least having the opportunity to be able to have some form of debate on them, and maybe have some consideration by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo my contribution at this time is just in regards to an SOP in the name of the Hon Louise Upston, who can\u2019t be here this evening. This SOP is in regards to Part 4, clause 191. Just to give you the context of this, this particular clause of the bill talks about \u201CFactors affecting benefit: hospitalisation\u201D. It talks about \u201CHospitalisation\u201D in clause 190\u2014\u201CThe main benefit under this Act of a person \u2026 is affected by hospitalisation\u201D. It gives, under that clause\u2014those who are dependants, those who are spouses inside of that. It then talks further on, in clause 191\u2014\u201CBenefit of spouse or partner increased after 13th week of hospitalisation\u201D\u2014\u201C(1) This section applies if\u2014(a) a person\u2019s \u2026 main benefit under this Act is reduced under section 190; and (b) \u2026 has a spouse or partner who is not in hospital or has been in hospital for less than 13 weeks;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThe SOP in the name of the Hon Louise Upston seeks to make a change. Members will see that on SOP 25, this has been removed. The words that have been removed in subclause 3\u2014the first part of the subclause notes, \u201CNothing in this section entitles a single person or a couple who are\u201D. I then quote the removed parts\u2014the crossed-out parts\u2014\u201Cmarried or in a civil union or in a de facto relationship\u201D, which just then has been replaced with a new part which states, \u201Cin a relationship\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo I was speaking on behalf of the Hon Louise Upston, who would like to see that again. This is important. There are numerous other pieces of legislation that actually acknowledge the different types of relationship. Again, I would hope to see that the Minister will see, actually, this is policy-neutral. There\u2019s nothing here that would actually be inconsistent with other forms of policy that\u2019s there. That would then allow the Minister to consider this. I hope that the Minister will consider this here as well. The Hon Louise Upston also notes that this Supplementary Order Paper\u2014Supplementary Order Paper 33\u2014amends the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill, and amends clause 191 to specify the types of relationship which are applicable to this clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo there are other SOPs I will be speaking on, but two things. First of all: the clarification around what\u2019s policy-neutral. The second is just in regards to the comments that the Minister made that, in regards to the welfare overhaul, actually, she changed a number of things. I\u2019d like to know what those things are. I think that\u2019s important for us, so that we can think that we\u2019ve got an opportunity at the committee of the whole House to debate those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThen, obviously, the third part of this debate is in regards to SOP 33 and Part 4, clause 191 as well. I hope that the Minister can consider this, and in her response, consider, actually, allowing this amendment to be part of the bill as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00227d800239396746ddb0e4fc49c9501ac9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d800239396746ddb0e4fc49c9501ac9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next member. It is custom\u2014and I think there have been Speakers\u2019 rulings in this House\u2014that we don\u2019t mention the absence of a member from the Chamber. You can certainly speak on behalf of another member, but it\u2019s not in the rules to mention that that person is away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00224036a7ab57a2417cbb031dad28500b6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224036a7ab57a2417cbb031dad28500b6f\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise to speak on this Part 4. I was, unfortunately, away in Auckland working and I missed out on the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022989aa7bcb7954614aadd4006aecf9160\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: You just mentioned your own absence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b427e6c37934500a2da7b0ff787e464\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I know. I\u2019m talking about myself, so I think I\u2019m actually OK. I missed out on the opportunity to speak on the amendments that I had presented. So I\u2019d like to thank members who did, in fact, speak on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EMoving on, I\u2019d like to speak on the amendment to clause 174 in Part 4. Clause 174 talks about the \u201CBenefit of a person affected is reduced by amount of overseas pension\u201D. Basically, what it is is that if someone is being paid an overseas pension and they are also entitled to the New Zealand pension, the amount that they are being paid overseas is deducted from the amount that they are being paid in New Zealand. There is also subclause (2) where that first part does not apply, and there are two categories. One is for the New Zealand superannuation payable overseas under section 26 of the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act 2001, or the veterans pension payable overseas under section 182 of the Veterans\u2019 Support Act, and I\u2019d like to put forward an amendment in my name to add another clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EMy amendment to clause 174 is to insert the following new paragraph (c) in subclause (2): \u201Ca person whose overseas pension is currently inaccessible from New Zealand.\u201D The reason I am doing this to amend the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill is to make it clear that those people\u2014you know, in New Zealand there are so many people who go overseas and work overseas, and often they pay into a retirement savings plan or a pension plan. Sometimes they pay into a savings plan for which, in some of the countries, the language is actually different, and it is called a pension plan. I have specifically written about this issue to the Minister in the chair, Carmel Sepuloni, since last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EFor New Zealanders who are currently working in Korea, for example, they\u2019re teaching English at local schools, but they are not paying into the Government superannuation fund because the pension that they call \u201Cpension\u201D is called \u201Cpension\u201D in that language. It\u2019s like a KiwiSaver. It\u2019s like a savings plan, and there is no differentiation between a savings plan that they have to pay into and the actual Government-funded pension, but it\u2019s all called pension. So New Zealand recognises those savings plans as a pension, and they think that they\u2019re being paid as superannuation, like a pension. I know, it sounds a little bit confusing, and what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6660905fab6407785d5b7b767b83016\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I think it\u2019s a conspiracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e83420d829e545cfa4225b17d0b695ad\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr O\u2019Connor. It\u2019s not a conspiracy. What happens is that when New Zealanders, after having worked there and having paid into a savings scheme for their retirement, just like New Zealanders do in New Zealand into a KiwiSaver\u2014that does not mean that they should be punished for making plans for their future. What happens is that when they leave Korea, for example, the savings that they have made in that country are not withdrawable. They cannot withdraw them to move to a New Zealand superannuation, KiwiSaver type kind of a scheme, and often New Zealanders who work in Korea are left thousands and thousands of dollars out of pocket. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI have been contacted by a lot of these people who are working over there, asking the New Zealand Government to go into negotiation with the Korean Government to work on this social security agreement. I know that the previous Government worked on that and that this Minister is currently working on that, and I know that they have agreed on the details of the language. Having said that, there is an issue specifically for these people who have saved into a savings scheme but cannot withdraw from it. Their Australian counterparts, their Canadian counterparts, and even their American counterparts can withdraw their money from their savings scheme to move it to their country and put it into their KiwiSaver type of retirement savings account, but New Zealanders apparently can\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI would like to ask the Minister whether that has been included in the social security agreement with Korea to give effect to this so that when New Zealanders who are now in New Zealand who cannot access those funds because they are not allowed to because they are now living in New Zealand\u2014[Bell rung] Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203f30d8905ad474cbe16b7bf6ad0469d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Melissa Lee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a0cca01def4df98e0d28b26f5b819d\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I will repeat it. I ask whether those New Zealanders who have now returned to New Zealand and who cannot access the thousands of dollars in money that they have saved in their accounts in Korea can, in fact, find their way to bring that money over to New Zealand, or, in fact, whether they would be missing out on their superannuation in New Zealand just because they\u2019ve got a pension scheme\u2014that word, \u201Cpension\u201D scheme\u2014in Korea. The language, the translation, makes it very difficult for them to differentiate between a superannuation type of scheme and a savings plan for those people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EYesterday, our newest member, Dan Bidois, spoke. It was an amazing maiden statement, I have to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235ba2139a0a043e0b85f8edf9bdafb81\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c358e1d119af4105803ae70be9fe48cc\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. One of the things that he talked about was the fact that he\u2019s worked in so many different countries, and that reminded me about this particular issue. One of the things that he said was that apart from working in developed countries, he also worked in some parts of the world that, often, we don\u2019t actually go and work in\u2014places like Kazakhstan\u2014and that made me wonder what kind of situation Kazakhstan has in terms of the superannuation or pension schemes that a lot of Kiwis save into. I looked it up, and I think in Kazakhstan there isn\u2019t a superannuation scheme that Kiwis who work in Kazakhstan can save into. I think they\u2019re exempt from it, whereas in countries like Korea, Kiwis who work in environments like in an education facility\u2014whether it\u2019s private or Government, they have to save into a savings scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI know it sounds really\u2014when the employer says you need to put it into a savings scheme, they have to say yes, but the thing is it\u2019s not a Government-funded pension scheme. Some do; some don\u2019t. But even if they do, they should be allowed to bring their funds back to New Zealand so that they are entitled to that money that they\u2019ve put away. If they\u2019re not, what I\u2019m asking\u2014and what I\u2019m seeking in this amendment in my name\u2014is to exclude those funds so that they are not disqualified from accessing New Zealand superannuation and so that their superannuation in New Zealand will not be deducted from the sum that they\u2019ve got overseas, as often that section 174 would have us believe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe other issue that I would like to talk about is that often\u2014it might have been in an earlier clause, but I think it\u2019s relevant to this part as well\u2014when people who are on a benefit go overseas for more than a certain period of time, their benefits are deducted. They can be overseas for only a certain period of time. If they are, in fact, going overseas to deal with their savings or superannuation type of situation, like in the examples that I\u2019ve given, they would not be prejudiced in that cutting of benefit, for example, to make sure that they are just trying to get what is rightfully theirs. So I would like to put forward my amendment to clause 174, to insert a new paragraph (c) in this clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI would like to urge the Minister to consider that this will, in fact, benefit a lot of New Zealanders who don\u2019t work only in New Zealand but all over the world. They may be caught in many different situations where they do the right thing by putting money away for their retirement, just like with a KiwiSaver type of savings scheme, and they\u2019re not able to access it. If they can\u2019t access it, they should not be penalised, and if they do try and access it, they should be given the right to access it, but if they can\u2019t, they should not have to go with less money in their superannuation payments in New Zealand. It seems only fair, and if the Minister thinks that there is a real reason why these New Zealanders who work overseas should be penalised, I would like to hear of her reasoning behind it\u2014why she doesn\u2019t think it\u2019s a good idea\u2014and perhaps she could talk to some of these people who write to me, or I could forward to her the emails and the letters that I have received from them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c70a239953e34b3ea694393d5c0d2eee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c70a239953e34b3ea694393d5c0d2eee\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I wanted to stand and speak. I know that this is an area that that member, Melissa Lee, is particularly concerned about, as she\u2019s spoken to me about this. I hear her concerns. I do just want to say that the issue here is that this is a policy-neutral rewrite. So we\u2019ve received that tabled amendment from Melissa Lee, also one from Dr Yang. Both of them are proposing to make quite significant changes to our overseas pensions\u2014the elements in our legislation that are specific to overseas pensions. This is not the place to make it. There are not policy changes that are going to occur as part of this policy-neutral rewrite. If they have suggestions with respect to overseas pensions and how they\u2019re treated through our Social Security Act, then I suggest they use their right to put up a member\u2019s bill or something like that, but not through this particular process. So I wanted to speak to both of them at the same time, given that they are both on overseas pensions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI also wanted to say to the member Melissa Lee that I can\u2019t speak to the social security agreement that is being signed between New Zealand and Korea, because it hasn\u2019t been finalised yet. So we\u2019re waiting for that, and when that is done, I\u2019m sure not long after then, that will be known to the public. Then, at that point, that will provide an opportunity for that member in particular, given her interest in this area, to scrutinise the decisions that have been made as part of that agreement between New Zealand and Korea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ECan I also just refer back to some of the comments that were made earlier by the Hon Alfred Ngaro, questioning what \u201Cpolicy-neutral\u201D is. Look, we\u2019ve had this conversation many times in this House, and short of asking you to google search both those terms and put the definition together, I will just say that we understand what a \u201Cpolicy\u201D is in this House; \u201Cneutral\u201D means no change. Therefore, I think it\u2019s really\u2014in terms of it doesn\u2019t make any significant proposals; so no significant policy proposals in this area. All it\u2019s doing is tidying up and making things consistent, keeping in mind, as I\u2019ve mentioned in the House many times before, that this bill was, initially, written in 1938, updated in 1964, and amended hundreds and hundreds of times. People like Sir Geoffrey Palmer have said that it\u2019s one of the worst pieces of legislation that we have on our books, because it\u2019s so untidy, which is why the previous Government committed to doing the rewrite in the first place. So I do acknowledge that we just had differences of opinion with regard to what \u201Cpolicy-neutral\u201D was, so that is why we\u2019ve come to this committee with the Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m not going to continue to go over what is \u201Cpolicy-neutral\u201D. That same member\u2014I was going to say Sir Alfred Ngaro. No; the Hon Alfred Ngaro! The Hon Alfred Ngaro also asked me to pre-empt what the welfare overhaul changes will be. Well, that\u2019s actually not part of what we\u2019re discussing in committee stages here. I mentioned that some things may be considered there, but I\u2019m certainly not going to pre-empt those changes today in the committee or make any major announcements, so we can lay that particular request to rest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002257a2fbe63476413b85c1cd8c8fa39cdb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257a2fbe63476413b85c1cd8c8fa39cdb\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022 data-id=\u0022df1b08333b8f4d26889183c183262f06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df1b08333b8f4d26889183c183262f06\u0022\u003EDr JIAN YANG (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, a very good choice. The Minister of Justice mentioned my amendment. I think my amendment actually fits perfectly with this particular bill, because my amendment is related to clause 172, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, under \u201Coverseas pension\u201D. It says an overseas pension currently \u201Cis not a Governmental occupational pension\u201D, which is, of course, reasonable. The problem here is sometimes it\u2019s very hard to define whether this is a Governmental occupational pension or not. It is very important for us to understand that we have different pension systems in different countries. The Ministry of Social Development (MSD) should take all these different pension systems into consideration, which can be similar to, but not necessarily clearly defined as, Government occupational pensions. This is about basically trying to make sure all those overseas pensions which are similar to Government occupational pensions will also be treated as, basically, Government occupational pensions. So those that are similar in nature to the Government occupational pensions should be considered as Government occupational pensions instead of overseas pensions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this amendment, of course, is to ensure that MSD takes those other pension systems into consideration whenever it is not clearly identified or clearly defined as a Government occupational pension, but is not really an overseas pension, so that MSD officials will look into this. This will ensure that MSD understands the nature of certain overseas benefits, pensions, or periodical allowances, and that the affected persons are consulted and not unfairly treated and penalised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EOf course, some pensions are clear-cut: these are Government occupational pensions\u2014very clear, 100 percent. Sometimes they\u2019re not so clear-cut: they can be 50 percent occupational pension, 50 percent, perhaps, just State pensions. Sometimes they\u2019re even less clear-cut, and you can\u2019t even tell if it\u2019s 50 percent or 30 percent or whatever. So in those situations, officials should really take into consideration other factors to make a decision, so that if those pensions are, in nature, Government occupational pensions, then we should really treat those as Government occupational pensions instead of overseas pensions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EThere are many reasons why it\u2019s sometimes hard to define whether these are Government occupational pensions or just State pensions. For example, sometimes the pension system isn\u2019t well established because it is just new, and sometimes the pensions are from different systems and they\u2019re very hard to understand, because, of course, different countries could have different systems in terms of pension systems, social systems, and/or social welfare systems. Also, sometimes it\u2019s hard to get information to understand those pensions because of a lack of transparency, a lack of information, and also sometimes it can be difficult to communicate and to clarify. That is why I believe it is important to add one particular section there to say that an overseas pension is not a Government occupational pension as defined in Schedule 2, or similar in nature to Government occupational pensions as described in Schedule 2 and as discussed with the person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EThe reason why I bring up this particular issue is because some years ago\u2014maybe over a decade ago\u2014the pension issue was a major issue in the Chinese community in New Zealand. To the credit of the former Labour Government, they settled the issue and they talked to the Chinese community. In the end, they came to a conclusion, but at that time it was a major concern to many members of\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002235da4da8af63494e8df59756a07f524a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235da4da8af63494e8df59756a07f524a\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m really thrilled to get this opportunity. I thought I was going to get overlooked tonight; the competition has been extremely tough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe reason I\u2019m excited is I actually think I\u2019ve got the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP)\u2014SOP 33\u2014that the Minister will approve. The reason I say that is because I\u2019ve done a bit of homework on my SOP, which is submitted in the name of the Hon Louise Upston. It proposes an amendment to Part 4, clause 191, and in subclause (3) suggests replacing the \u201Cin a relationship\u201D phrase, on page 127, with \u201Cmarried or in a civil union or in a de facto relationship.\u201D The reason that I\u2019m speaking to this one again is because if you take a look in clause 191 of the bill, then we see that in clause 191(1), in (b) and in (c), and then we move on to 191(2), the terms that are used in both of those bits talk about a \u201Cspouse or a partner\u201D. So in 191(1)(b), it refers to \u201C[The person] has a spouse or partner who is not in hospital or has been in hospital for less than 13 weeks;\u201D, and 191(1)(c) refers to \u201Ca main benefit under this Act is payable to or in respect of [that person\u2019s] spouse or partner.\u201D So I\u2019m suggesting, for the purposes of consistency, that when we move on to 191(3), we use the same language in that subclause, which says that \u201CNothing in this section entitles a single person or a couple who are \u2026 [in a] relationship\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe words \u201Cin a relationship\u201D are open to interpretation. To give you an example, as defined in the dictionary, one interpretation of \u201Cin a relationship\u201D is \u201Cthe way in which two or more \u2026 people [or things] are connected, or the state of being connected:\u201D\u2014that could be a relationship between a member of Parliament and their constituents. The other term for \u201Cin a relationship\u201D is \u201CThe state of being connected by blood or marriage.\u201D\u2014so, you know, you can trace your relationship, via your heritage, to a common ancestor. The other interpretation of \u201Cin a relationship\u201D is \u201CThe way in which two or more people or groups regard and behave towards each other\u201D\u2014so landlord-tenant relationships. So I think the words \u201Cin a relationship\u201D are so open to interpretation, and in order to be consistent with subclauses (1) and (2), where the words \u201Cspouse\u201D and \u201Cpartner\u201D are actually used, I think that we owe it to the bill to maintain that consistency throughout. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI also have a couple of other questions for the Minister. One of those is whether the 13 weeks of hospitalisation actually refers to community-based services for respite care\u2014those places may not be, in terms of the definition of a hospital, actually a hospital, and whether they would comply with this Act, or whether there could be an exemption for respite care services which provide that community-based care for carers, for their family and wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe other question I have for the Minister is around the clarification for this part of the bill, clause 190, which is headed up \u201CFactors affecting benefit: hospitalisation\u201D, and whether the word \u201Cbenefit\u201D does, in fact, apply to superannuitants as well. So I\u2019m just not quite sure whether that application is meant to apply to superannuitants or not. The definitions indicate that it does, but I wasn\u2019t sure whether it was intended to capture that cohort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESo I do believe I have a very good argument for accepting this SOP, and I\u2019m sure that this one here is actually going to find favour with the Minister and be approved. For that reason, I have great pleasure in speaking to my proposed amendment in the name of the Hon Louise Upston, and I certainly look forward to\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb726e211ca94606b4b9058b8341259f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb726e211ca94606b4b9058b8341259f\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E I want to point out, again, that this is a similar situation to what we had earlier. It is so policy-neutral that it makes no absolute difference at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EBasically, what the member Maureen Pugh has pointed out is that the Supplementary Order Paper 33 is attempting to amend clause 191 to specify the types of relationships which are applicable to the clause, stating that just putting \u201Crelationship\u201D is not enough. However, on page 323 of schedule 2, in the \u201CDictionary\u201D of the bill, there is a line where it\u2019s got \u201Cin a relationship, for a person, means that the person is\u2014(a) married; or (b) in a civil union; or (c) in a de facto relationship\u201D. So it\u2019s already considered there. Obviously, all those words are not required throughout the bill, because of the fact that \u201Crelationship\u201D, when you refer to this page, is then explained further, and that\u2019s the definition of it. So a very good argument, Maureen Pugh, but not quite this time. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227d7ea189c8434145b6d9e3a910cf927f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d7ea189c8434145b6d9e3a910cf927f\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u00222b390309606b4f7fbf0567a2181cf0c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b390309606b4f7fbf0567a2181cf0c8\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I still don\u2019t understand. I mean, I know that the Minister wanted to school us on what policy-neutral is. We do know what policy-neutral is; we want to know what her interpretation of it is. Again that is another good example of being policy-neutral but not good enough. So I think, actually, what we do understand now is that what the Minister is saying is: actually, it\u2019s policy-neutral under her own definition. If it\u2019s good enough for the definitions in the dictionary of the bill, why isn\u2019t it also good enough\u2014and in this House there\u2019s been many debates to recognise the different types of relationships. I mean, let\u2019s be real: in this House, there have been debates acknowledging whether it\u2019s a de facto relationship, a civil union, or a married relationship. Why is it not good enough to have it in the legislation so that it\u2019s very clear there? So I still think that, actually, I\u2019m sure many of us on this side don\u2019t agree with the Minister\u2019s response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EBut, Madam Chair, I know you are looking for new and fresh forms of debate, and I would like to give that to you in the form of, in Part 4, new clause 203A, in Supplementary Order Paper 25, and this is, in particular, to do with the factors affecting benefit and the absence from New Zealand. I note that hasn\u2019t been debated as yet in Part 4 and I think it\u2019s particularly important because this is to do with the winter energy payments. Now, I know that the Minister keeps saying that this is policy-neutral, but it wasn\u2019t there before; it is now, under this new Government. Anyway, we won\u2019t go into that debate. That was a debate that was had. But, under this, it talks about the \u201Cspecial absence rule\u201D. So we talk about the winter energy payment: \u201C[payment] is not payable for 1 or more days while a beneficiary is absent from New Zealand\u201D. We get that; we understand it. Subclause (2): \u201CThe winter energy payment is payable to a beneficiary for 1 or more days during any 1 or more absences\u201D. We get that as well. It then comes to subclause 2(a) \u201Cthe payment would, but for those 1 or more absences, \u2026 (b) the chief executive is satisfied that the 1 or more absences do not affect the beneficiary\u2019s eligibility for the payment under section 65C.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI would like to actually include in this, because I think it\u2019s important, that we have the recognition of many of our beneficiaries, and I\u2019m speaking of the Pasifika community in particular. There are many who are superannuitants who often will return back to the Pacific for a number of different reasons, and I\u2019d like to include in this\u2014and it\u2019s not a Supplementary Order Paper, but I\u2019m going to debate it\u2014that if the Minister would consider then having in section 3 a clause that would state: \u201Ca person may apply to the chief executive\u201D\u2014in this case, again\u2014\u201Cfor exemption, in a special absence, under the special absence rule for\u2014(a) caring for children who may be located overseas; (b) health conditions which require time in warmer conditions\u201D. So there are many instances where\u2014I know I\u2019ve had constituents and others who have come to our offices and talked to us about the need to actually go away to warmer climates, because often that suits their conditions; their health conditions as well. And, more importantly\u2014\u201C(c) serious illness to immediate family overseas.\u201D And, on many occasions, that\u2019s the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ENow, if the Government is clear that the winter energy payments are for those superannuitants, it doesn\u2019t want to disadvantage those who, for a genuine reason, have had to leave the country. Again, it could be for caring for children who could be located overseas\u2014often grandchildren, or \u201C(b) health conditions which require time in warmer conditions\u201D. Often it\u2019s the case\u2014again, because constituents that I know of have had to go back to the beautiful islands, whether it\u2019s Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, and of course the most beautiful islands, the Cook Islands. They\u2019ll go there because the conditions actually allow them to be able to recuperate and to recover. But (c) is \u201Cserious illness to immediate family overseas.\u201D I think this is not unreasonable. Again, if I reiterate the points that the Minister has said: this is just simply adding to\u2014it\u2019s not changing\u2014the policy intent. It\u2019s not changing the policy direction. It\u2019s making sure that it ensures that, for those who are genuinely absent from New Zealand for genuine reasons and considerations, the chief executive will take these into consideration and they will not be penalised for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo I think this has been a contribution that I\u2019ve made on a part that actually has not had any debate so far in Part 4. I think that I\u2019d like to consider that the Minister\u2014I know what she\u2019ll do: she\u2019ll come up again and she\u2019ll talk about her own views, but I think, as Maureen Pugh said, she had the Golden Kiwi ticket. We don\u2019t talk about Golden Kiwi; we talk about Lotto tickets now, but anyway, back in our day, it was Golden Kiwi. I do hope this could be the Golden Kiwi. The Minister may just consider that this could be the one that is policy-neutral enough to be able to consider this for an amendment and a change to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002218063fdd7d8b44a5b563a4b6fef6895c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218063fdd7d8b44a5b563a4b6fef6895c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E Actually, what I\u2019m standing for is not the Golden Kiwi; I\u2019m standing to correct. Earlier I said the definition for relationships was in schedule 2 on page 323, but it\u2019s actually, in the version that everyone\u2019s got in this Chamber, pages 337 and crosses over to 338.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022 data-id=\u0022df9625b4cde2484c94c54e6e01e28a83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df9625b4cde2484c94c54e6e01e28a83\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak to Part 4 of this bill and to ask the Minister some questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a28bce58d5d240ce8e9c906119043dc3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Get on with it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dea915e52baf434198aa310cf0866ee3\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE\u003C/span\u003E: I am getting on with it. While this is not necessarily an area of great expertise for me, this part of the bill\u2014and I particularly refer to clause 176 and the new clause 177\u2014is, specifically, about identifying the other parent. It\u2019s specifically about that. Under the previous legislation, if you could not identify the other parent or identify who is in law the other parent; had not applied for a formula assessment of child support, as required by section 9 of the Child Support Act; or had not given, in evidence in proceedings under the Child Support Act 1991, all information that is required of a parent as a compellable witness under section 122 of the Act, then, effectively, some of your benefit was taken away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003ESo this is not policy-neutral, this part. This is a new policy that is being brought in by this Government, under this legislation, and clause 176(3) seeks to replace subclause (2) with a new clause 177. I agree with some of the subclauses in clause 177, which say that \u201C(1) MSD must not reduce a benefit under section 176(2) if MSD is satisfied \u2026\u201D of, effectively, five conditions. Two of them I completely agree with. They are \u201C(c) the beneficiary or any of the beneficiary\u2019s children would be at risk of violence if the beneficiary did or took steps to do [anything that changes things]\u201D, and \u201C(d) [a] child [that] was conceived as a result of incest or sexual violation;\u201D. However, clause 177(1)(a), (b), and (c) are open to interpretation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EMy contribution seeks to ask the Minister to explain to this committee how the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) is going to be satisfied of those three conditions, the first one being that \u201C(a) there is insufficient evidence available to establish who \u2026 in law [is] the other parent;\u201D. How exactly are they going to do that\u2014simply by saying that they don\u2019t know, they\u2019re not sure, they can\u2019t remember, or there were a series of potential other parents? How is MSD actually going to be satisfied when that person says there is insufficient evidence? The second point is \u201C(b) the beneficiary is taking active steps to identify who \u2026 in law [is] the other parent;\u201D. What does that mean, Minister? Does that mean they are asking around? Can they remember? Was it at that party? You know, those are all the things that, actually, we\u2019re asking MSD to identify, and I actually think the members on the other side are placing a big onus on these people. Then the third one is \u201C(e) [is there] some other compelling circumstance for the beneficiary\u2019s failure or refusal to do any of the things referred to in section 176(2) and in any event\u201D\u2014this is where it gets really good\u2014\u201Cthere is no real likelihood of [parent] support being collected in the foreseeable future from the other parent or the other parent\u2019s estate.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EAll those things are judgments. They are, absolutely, judgments made by MSD, largely\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b457d81d7b5a4b239be38b4750a85f81\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: And who is judge and jury?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d88bbcaf8394566af5cac29d318a961\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, Mr Bayly\u2014largely at whatever the parent said happened: their recollection of the event, their recollection of the relationship, their recollection of \u201CActually, we don\u2019t know.\u201D The reason I bring this up\u2014and it relates to a further clause which is in this bill, clause 186, which actually affects benefit maintenance claims\u2014is that, in my short while as a member of Parliament, I have had a significant number of constituents come to me and say that, actually, they are being rorted by their partner using tax rorts and a whole lot of other things, and they\u2019re not getting maintenance. So, in this clause, we say, \u201CMSD may refuse or cancel [benefits] for [the] failure to take reasonable steps to obtain maintenance.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003ENow, even that in itself, for the parent, is an extremely difficult thing for them to do sometimes\u2014extremely difficult. And when you put all those things together, I think, while this is not policy-neutral and you may not have preferred the policy of the National Government, you are putting MSD in an invidious\u2014sorry, the Government is putting MSD in an invidious position\u2014Madam Chair, I apologise\u2014of actually asking MSD to make all these decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4e288db2eb14b8d94b6be2b94017ac6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4e288db2eb14b8d94b6be2b94017ac6\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E Just, hopefully, to stop that from continuing, because it\u2019s going down the wrong track. I just want to point out to that member, Lawrence Yule, that the exemptions with respect to not naming the other parent have not changed in this version at all; they are the existing exemptions that were there, that now are still there, that are carried over. So there are no changes with respect to that at all. As I said, it\u2019s policy-neutral. If we had changed those, then it wouldn\u2019t be policy-neutral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002244ff8e8919bc4b699c84de39c1fbd47a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244ff8e8919bc4b699c84de39c1fbd47a\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022b11d989363f84988b8382238831962cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b11d989363f84988b8382238831962cf\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look actually, firstly, I would really encourage the Minister to respond to what I thought was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269bcc7c494954073b1acd3b94cbf55fa\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: And the Government members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224817615d7bc14f58ba9f26eab565e6dd\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll take the speech here, Mr Bayly. In an earlier call, I was asking the Minister quite a serious range of questions around the whole alcohol and drug element. I don\u2019t intend to rehash that in any way, but I would really encourage the Minister to respond to that. I know one can always look at things frivolously, or interpret what is being done in the committee stage as frivolous, but, actually, it\u2019s relatively important to make clear that, when we are referencing new legislation\u2014in this case, the Substance Addiction (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act of 2017\u2014that\u2019s being done appropriately. And, without belabouring the point and trying to make it too heavy, if we get that wrong, then we\u2019re not fulfilling the correct duty of care for those under the control of the Crown. And again, fundamentally, Minister, if it helps, it\u2019s around the clarity of dates, because this new Act\u2014this compulsory Act\u2014does not come into effect for a whole year; so, in other words, parts of the Act are not effective at the moment. Secondly, it is for people with the absolute highest issues of alcoholism; therefore, does it encompass all people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. It\u2019s around a tabled amendment that I\u2019m attempting to table. Am I able to seek if that\u2019s valid now or not\u2014whether I can speak to it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229547d559354541e4a30d86eed6818149\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: You can speak to it while they\u2019re still considering whether it\u2019s valid. Go for it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4d1af62a85643479af53ca0712d7ca9\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Marvellous! The philosopher in me loves those distinctions. Marvellous!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, I would like to talk, fortunately not in Greek and Latin, to a tabled amendment fresh, potentially, on the Table\u2014so fresh my hands are burning. It\u2019s a suggestion to insert new clause 213(a), and it\u2019s to do with factors that affect eligibility\u2014in this particular regard, to the Minister\u2014around the child disability allowance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EIt may not be well known to this House: generally speaking, when people are in the armed forces and are serving the Realm of New Zealand here in New Zealand, if one of their children is receiving a child disability allowance, all is fine\u2014or, to use the colloquial, all is tickety-boo. However, as you might imagine, if someone is going off to serve the Realm overseas, they lose access to the child disability allowance. And that makes sense, because if, like myself and others, you\u2019ve been in Iraq and Afghanistan, you\u2019re not taking your children with you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe issue, though, Minister\u2014and it\u2019s something I\u2019ve raised in this House unsuccessfully for seven years, and I think there\u2019s an opportunity here; I believe it would be policy-neutral, because it would get the support of the House\u2014is in those relatively rare circumstances where a serving military officer who has a child who is accessing the child disability allowance, at the moment, their eligibility is curtailed when they leave the Realm. However, think of the circumstance, for an example, where a military officer is dispatched to be a military attach\u00E9 in one of New Zealand\u2019s embassies, and, as you might expect, takes their children; they should be able, I would suggest, and it\u2019s through this amendment, to continue being eligible for the child disability allowance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo, in this Part 4, a new clause 213(a) that I am suggesting, is to put a factor of eligibility that serving the Realm in a military capacity overseas enables them to still maintain and retain the child disability allowance. I really need to stress it\u2019s in very particular cases. We\u2019re not advocating here that all our serving personnel in the likes of the Sinai, in East Timor, up on the North Korea - South Korea border, in Iraq and Afghanistan\u2014that our soldiers serving overseas\u2014are to be taking their families; we\u2019re talking about very particular cases. So, really, we\u2019re coming back down to those who are at our embassies and those who are serving overseas in situations where they take their family.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI suppose the fundamental principle behind this is equity and fairness. Fundamentally, what it\u2019s about is that if he or she has signed up, has taken the Queen\u2019s coin and is serving the Realm, they shouldn\u2019t lose entitlement because of that service. And I suppose that\u2019s the fundamental issue here that we have around eligibility and criteria in Part 4: that, in effect, these men and women who are serving the Realm, who are overseas with their children, are being affected and are losing that entitlement. And it just doesn\u2019t seem particularly fair to me that they should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI think, really importantly as well, this is not an unusual provision as far as I understand things. This is not completely unusual; it is very particular to the defence forces\u2014[Bell rung]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a013256c2a441f6973863f2863403f8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: You need to sign your Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2adf60b0ff740b3bfec5ba4328d39b7\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Fundamentally, at the moment, people who are in the foreign service and in the police, I understand, still keep their entitlement when they are serving overseas. It affects just our defence force members. So this is a situation\u2014and perhaps an example helps illustrate this\u2014where a constituent of mine a number of years ago, who has served the Realm with distinction, has come in, has a child affected with a disability, has been, rightly, and thanks to the Government regardless of political colour, receiving that benefit, but at the moment that he and his family were deployed to one of our overseas missions, he was put at a disadvantage\u2014he, his wife, and, in particular, his child. He lost this entitlement. It was a factor affecting the benefit, as is fitting of Part 4. It was a factor which has seen that he is at a disadvantage\u2014his family\u2019s at a disadvantage\u2014because of the service he\u2019s giving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd I just think, fundamentally, that\u2019s a flaw. I think it\u2019s actually where the House can come together at its best and strongest, when actually we\u2019re just acknowledging that, yes, the law, over time, has just had a few problems that need tidying up. And I think this is an excellent case in point. It will, Minister, I suggest, affect only the defence force. This will be, probably, they suggest to me, no more than 10 people a year\u2014if we\u2019re lucky. In fact, as my current research indicates, and by current I mean \u201Cjust now\u201D\u2014this is something I\u2019m also seeking to introduce as a member\u2019s bill; in fact, it sits in the ballot at the moment\u2014we\u2019ve probably only got about two people in this space at the moment overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo, in terms of what we can achieve here in Part 4, we can go through, as we rightly have done, looking at all the entitlements we\u2019ve got, from insurance recovery to failure to assist child support. We\u2019ve got hospitalisation. We\u2019ve got alcohol and drug treatment. I suppose it\u2019s a plaintive plea\u2014an alliterative plaintive plea\u2014that we do look at this very small element to do with our defence forces. We may well be able to look\u2014and, Minister, your officials may well be able to look\u2014over the course of tonight at how that\u2019s already affecting those within the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade; how it\u2019s affecting the police. In fact, if they are, for some reason, against the advice that I\u2019ve been given, not included, then perhaps they should be included as well. It\u2019s not going to have a major impact on the policy-neutral elements that have been suggested, because it\u2019s such a small amount of money in and of itself when one thinks of the child benefit, and in total it\u2019s a very small number of people who are going to be affected. But, as I say, it\u2019s a situation that has arisen directly out of a constituent query to me. It\u2019s something that I will continue to pursue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI do understand the Minister\u2019s intention; it has been mentioned to us many times in this regard: that this bill is seeking to be policy-neutral and not trying to put anything in that\u2019s too problematic. I think, twofold\u2014one, this is not going to have a major financial impact, although will benefit and be gratefully received by those who, again, serve the country, but, secondly, I think it will be neutral in so far as I would hope every member of this House would support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo to wrap up where these contributions have gone, working backwards, fundamentally, the new tabled amendment seeks that the eligibility criteria for our defence force personnel serving overseas\u2014usually in a military or a defence attach\u00E9 role\u2014with their children do not have as a factor affecting their benefit that service overseas; that, in effect, they continue to receive the child disability allowance; and that they continue to receive all that they would if they were in the Realm. It\u2019s not able to go into the tabled amendment, but the factor is that a lot of New Zealand embassies are, effectively, New Zealand land. I know there\u2019s a distinction between who owns the land, but it\u2019s seen as New Zealand property, so that may help us conceptualise it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe final point is really just an encouragement, if possible, Minister, to address my earlier questions around the treatment of alcoholism and drug addiction. Fundamentally, in swapping out those two older bills, as tempting as it was with the new one, is that new bill actually in effect? I can tell you, as the former chair of the Health Committee and reading the bill, it is not. And, secondly, will this provide the appropriate duty of care required?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo, look, that\u2019s where I\u2019ll end those contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b89a79fa19e4b9ab052223b15052c2a\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Hooray!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229c062dd5ba049cc98a621bd0d0ec401\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It may be a relief to the Minister\u2014and probably to Mr McNulty\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9a1305a65564d79be19cdf20d3fc2f4\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f124cc7f5f94e62a0441763c8b06cf4\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that on this Part 4 I have given now all four speeches. But the more he interjects the more I may need to\u2014no, only kidding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224682dbab766e4a928a768f6de892b959\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: If that seemed longer than five minutes, it was indeed. I\u2019m sorry, I do apologise. We forgot to set the clock.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f80c7b8edcc946c9a3c597865f744c42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f80c7b8edcc946c9a3c597865f744c42\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228582ddadc8f644a8989362df2c6dadcb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000699\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Jian Yang to clause 172 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000700\u0022\u003Ein clause 172, under the definition of overseas pension, replace paragraph (c) with:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000701\u0022\u003E(c)\tis not a Government occupational pension,\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000702\u0022\u003E(i)\tas defined in Schedule 2, and or\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000703\u0022\u003E(ii)\tsimilar in nature as Government occupational pensions as described in Schedule 2 and as discussed with P\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b3e8b3df606842a5ae547961950cf4eb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000704\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Melissa Lee to clause 174 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000705\u0022\u003Ein clause 174(2), insert:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000706\u0022\u003E(c)\ta person whose overseas pension is currently inaccessible from New Zealand\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223e2d929614124f66ba2688f4fbb26861\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000707\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Chris Penk to clause 188 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000708\u0022\u003Ein clause 188(a), before \u201Cpayable\u201D, insert \u201Cthat is being paid for or is\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000709\u0022\u003Ein clause 188(a), after \u201Cof that Act)\u201D, insert \u201Cor under any other equivalent legislative provision in replacement thereof\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cbb2ab1559ff41a2bc06f4059c6e2477\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000710\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 33 in the name of Hon Louise Upston to the proposed amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 25 in the name of the Hon Carmel Sepuloni to clause 191(3) be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002279f195e84f5a4f5d96dc1389b70f53dd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc3465777bc6471cb985ffa67eb9bf2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc3465777bc6471cb985ffa67eb9bf2d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: [A member sneezes] Votes should normally be taken in silence, bodily functions excepted\u2014some.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 34 in the name of Simon O\u2019Connor to the proposed amendment set out in Supplementary Order Paper 25 in the name of the Hon Carmel Sepuloni replacing clause 192(3) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222491134f19c74d398c06d8d3ed10ef32\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the agreement not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000713\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 25 in the name of Hon Carmel Sepuloni to Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002297e76c9e5188474d9d9d2ffb012d680e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000714\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Simon O\u2019Connor be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000715\u0022\u003Einsert, after clause 213, the following new clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000716\u0022\u003E213A\tChild disability allowance payable overseas to members of Defence Force\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000717\u0022\u003E(1)\tA person to whom a child disability allowance is payable in respect of a child may be paid, or continue to be paid, the child disability allowance in respect of the child in the circumstances set out in subsection (2).\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000718\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe circumstances are that\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000719\u0022\u003E(a)\tthe person is a member of the Defence Force; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000720\u0022\u003E(b)\tthe person is carrying out duties of the Defence Force outside New Zealand; and \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000721\u0022\u003E(c)\tthe child is absent from New Zealand in order to be with, or near, the person.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000722\u0022\u003E(3)\tIn this section,\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000723\u0022\u003EDefence Force means the New Zealand Defence Force constituted by section 11(1) of the Defence Act 1990\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000724\u0022\u003Emember of the Defence Force has the same meaning as in section 2(1) of the Defence Act 1990.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227d9f655820f142c7900818a733507a1f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002240df86c2b1ac471d99226c348fd6122a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002254786ea8aecc4eae809c89ea22df8f80\u0022\u003EPart 5  Enforcement: sanctions and offences\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u00222bc92f0e213f429d84ad59237b7e2c93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bc92f0e213f429d84ad59237b7e2c93\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think this is going to be a very robust part of the bill to debate, because it talks about something that has varying views across the political divide\u2014even in the current Government coalition\u2014and it\u2019s to do with sanctions. We know that prior to the election, there were differing views. I know that New Zealand First had a very clear perspective that they needed to be robust, they needed to be reviewed, and they needed to make sure that, actually, they complied, and this was to do with those that were receiving a benefit. Whereas on the other side were the Greens, who were very clear that they wanted to remove as much as possible, almost all sanctions, because they felt that they were too punitive. So I\u2019ll be interested to see the debates that happen over this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI want to start off my contribution with regards to Part 5, and it\u2019s with the amendment in regards to Part 5, clause 217. What this talks about is that this is to create some continuity and consistency, and this is policy-positive. None of this neutral stuff, right? There\u2019s neutral and positive, and this is policy-positive. I\u2019d like us to refer to the evidence in clause 217. What this amendment will do is actually make it consistent with the clause in Part 3, which is clause 99. If I read this for the benefit of the members opposite and the Government, it states this: \u201CThe beneficiary must notify change of circumstances\u201D and the \u201Cbeneficiary must without delay notify MSD of a change in the beneficiary\u2019s circumstances\u201D, and it highlights and indicates what those changes are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EWhat this amendment is seeking to do is ensure that in clause 217, when it talks about the hierarchy of sanctions, it makes it very clear in the insertion of a new line. In that first part of clause 217, it is to insert the new line, which says that \u201CMSD must advise P\u201D\u2014that is, the beneficiary\u2014\u201Cof the hierarchy of sanctions and ensure P understands impacts of any breaches\u201D. Now if one reads in the explanatory note, it is simply to do this: \u201CThis Supplementary Order Paper amends clause 99 to make it clear that it is the responsibility of the person receiving the benefit to notify MSD of any changes. It ensures that people have an obligation to notify MSD even when they believe their change in circumstances may affect their entitlement, not just in [circumstances] where they are unsure that it will.\u201D It\u2019s consistent with clause 99 where, again, the consistency is that the beneficiary must notify of those changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI think this is quite a pragmatic view to be able to ensure that we make a change to clause 217, which I think is critically important. It also affects clause 216, where it talks about the obligations to carry out the sanctions for failure to comply, and where it states quite clearly that the obligations referred to are: \u201C(a) obligation to comply with a requirement under section 104 to attend and participate in a work ability assessment or reassessment:\u201D\u2014as well\u2014\u201C(b) obligation to comply with a work-preparation obligation under section 110 or 111:\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI know that my colleague Darroch Ball across the way would agree with this. He\u2019s been a strong supporter of the Limited Service Volunteers and felt for a long time that they\u2019ve been very effective in being able to help those young people that are in need to be able to comply with the rules and regulations but, more importantly, to give them an opportunity to be able to have a career.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo I think, actually, that this amendment is quite clear. It\u2019s precise. Number one, it allows for consistency, which is in clause 99 in Part 3, and it ensures that it is clear for the beneficiary, in this particular instance, to ensure that they understand and know that the fact is that they must comply. But, more importantly, it puts some onus and accountability and responsibility back on the beneficiary themselves, and I think that\u2019s really important as well. It\u2019s not just dependent on MSD to do its job. It will do its job, it will comply, and in most of these cases, we think that\u2019s critically important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo this is just the first of my contributions, and I think that I\u2019d like to, again, put this order up. If the Minister that\u2019s in the chair, Kris Faafoi, who is very capable\u2014I know that this may not be his brief. He may not have skills, but he is a good Minister. He is a great Minister and a great person, who I think understands this, and I\u2019d like to see that Minister stand up, take charge, and agree to this amendment. This could be the Golden Kiwi of the night. I think he would agree with this. I submit this amendment to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00226e023ce80135458a9605e9a209a42e11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e023ce80135458a9605e9a209a42e11\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Excellent\u2014thank you, Madam Chair. I rise, and it\u2019s fantastic to take a second call\u2014my second ever call\u2014on what is a fantastic summation going on here by my colleagues. We\u2019ve got the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill, and I\u2019m just happy to be here to talk about what is, as my colleague the Hon Alfred Ngaro said, a very important part of the bill\u2014talking about the sanctions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI want to talk in particular about clause 232 in Part 5 of this bill. So what are we talking about here? We\u2019re talking about the clause that looks at the good and sufficient reason for non-compliance, such that there\u2019s a default from the Ministry of Social Development (MSD). So what I have here is an amendment from my fantastic colleague the Hon Louise Upston, and she has an\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022566376ff840a4aae8b3a138154cb3bda\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Dame\u2014is she a Dame? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022544fe0ccaea048c284e634f1b1ffbc2f\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s not a Dame. She has an amendment here to amend clause 232 of Part 5, and it is to replace paragraph (a) with the following: \u201CCompliance was dependent on any assistance specified by MSD, including the availability of online MSD services;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI think that this is a really important paragraph to add in an age of technological change, where they should have access to update their enrolment details or changes in circumstances, changes in address, and changes in employment status via the online capabilities. I just think that this is an important amendment to make. It brings us together into the 21st century and makes sure that the beneficiaries have a requirement to go online and update their status in order to avoid being in default and being put into default by MSD. So I just think that this is a really important thing, and I commend my colleague the Hon Louise Upston for putting this forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EYou know, I spoke about incentives in my maiden statement yesterday. I think that this part of the bill is all about putting the right incentives in place to ensure that beneficiaries are given the push that they need in order to do whatever they can to get back into the workforce and become gainfully employed. So I do want to wrap up by just saying that my honourable colleague Louise Upston from Taup\u014D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201de560b2e6f4b959cf80e90c1c57abc\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Keep going\u2014you can do it. Come on, keep going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a7da6b0cd0a4e1cb6ac93c31a5a5fb0\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I really commend her for what is, I think, a really important part of the clause. I\u2019m all about making sure that everybody has access to online services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ESo I think I\u2019ll just leave it there, and we\u2019ll keep going from that. I\u2019d like to get some debate and discussion on this amendment because I think it\u2019s a really important part to debate, and all I\u2019ve heard from the Government is complaints. Where is their discussion and their debate on this amendment? So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222502ef95b7c34b428ffc01f2d7b40ee0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got a lot to learn, sunshine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ae6603b99a4fcea783a7546fbc1461\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. I will just leave it there and say that I once again commend my colleague the Hon Louise Upston for putting this amendment on the Table. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3837a02055845599297d73bcd3d7835\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3837a02055845599297d73bcd3d7835\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to follow the speech by Mr Dan Bidois\u2014a hard act to follow, but I shall give it my very best. Specifically in relation to Subpart 1\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5351240b2e04a849e963c0e2aa69eb6\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t mean that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd639ac0ca904c8ebd52850a06ce60fe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Sorry to interrupt the member. Please be careful with the personal pronouns\u2014you\u2019ll bring the Chair into the debate. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e58b83aa32f14052b3d3f1cece155ed1\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I wish to focus on clause 215, under the subheading \u201CTypes of sanction\u201D, and let me precede my comments about the amendment that\u2019s placed before us by the Minister by just looking at the significance of that clause in the context of the legislation as a whole. What we\u2019re looking at is \u201CSanctions for failure to comply with certain obligations under this Act\u201D. This is important because the Act does, obviously, provide certain benefits, which is, of course, the very purpose of the thing, but it does also note that in circumstances where a person makes himself or herself ineligible, then certain sanctions will apply. So this is no small matter. This is a very serious thing, indeed, for people who are caught up in such circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ENow, originally, subclause (1) had said that \u201CMSD must under section 217\u201D\u2014and I note those words are significant, for reasons that I will come back to shortly\u2014\u201Cimpose a sanction for failure without good and sufficient reason to comply with the obligations under this Act that are specified in section 216.\u201D Now, in the replacement version of that subclause, we\u2019ve got something slightly different, because, actually, what we\u2019re doing now is referring to the section itself, and not section 217. So the words \u201Cunder section 217\u201D have been replaced by \u201Cunder this section\u201D. It\u2019s actually completely unnecessary for a subsection to refer to itself or, indeed, a section to refer to itself. That\u2019s because the presumption would be that if a section is making certain provisions for those who are subject to the Act to comply with, it would be under exactly that section, and you would only say that it was section X, Y, or Z that\u2019s referred to if it was a section other than the section in which those words are contained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ll seek the advice of the Minister on whether those words are indeed redundant and, in doing so, perhaps confirm or deny his view on whether he agrees with another aspect of the wording as well\u2014that is, whether the phrase \u201Cgood and sufficient reason\u201D has sufficient clarity in this proposed law. It seems to me\u2014and I might be wrong; again, I\u2019m happy to be corrected if that\u2019s the case\u2014that the phrase is not defined in the legislation itself. So my question of the Minister\u2014and perhaps her officials, if necessary\u2014then becomes whether this phrase has a particular meaning in the law of the land already, perhaps in another piece of legislation or in cases in which such matters have been brought before the courts. Is there any jurisprudence, in other words, around the phrase \u201Cgood and sufficient reason\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWhy is this important, I hear you ask? Well, the answer is: because this is the basis of the determination of the Ministry of Social Development (MSD), according to whether a person has failed to comply with the obligations under this Act. I will note in passing that an improvement, in my mind, has been made in this new version of subclause (1). It talks about compliance with one or more obligations under this Act, whereas the previous version had simply talked about \u201Cthe obligations\u201D. Under the old version, this would imply that all the obligations have to be met, whereas, in fact, it is failure to comply with just one or more that will trigger this obligation or, indeed, ability for MSD to impose sanctions. So I will give a shout-out to the Minister and her various teams of officials, who I think, in this case, have made a worthwhile change from the old to the new versions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy next point is just around the meaning of the word \u201Cconsiders\u201D\u2014so, MSD \u201Cconsiders\u201D, that a person has failed. I wonder if we should instead have something along the lines of \u201Creasonably considers\u201D, so that a reasonable standard, an objective standard, is required by the legislation. This will mean that it\u2019s subject to judicial review. If a person believes that he or she has been unfairly excluded\u2014unfairly sanctioned\u2014then because the requirement has to be reasonable in terms of the exercise of that power by the department, by virtue of the word \u201Creasonable\u201D, or perhaps some other variation such as \u201Cobjectively\u201D or \u201Cin the honest belief\u201D, perhaps. These, obviously, have different meanings and different import, and my question to the Minister is really seeking assurance that these different variations, these different kinds of standard, have been considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESimilarly, there is no guidance in this particular clause as to whether we\u2019re talking about a standard based perhaps on the balance of probabilities. Is it the case that on the balance of probabilities\u2014a more than 50 percent chance, in other words\u2014a person has failed to comply with their obligations? Alternatively, we could have a higher standard that would provide greater protection if we were to say that MSD considering the obligations not having been met would be something like \u201Cbeyond reasonable doubt\u201D. That particular standard is used in criminal law. My personal view is that it\u2019s not an appropriate standard for this type of legislation, because we\u2019re not talking about criminal activity; we\u2019re talking about something lower and less serious than that\u2014merely failing to meet obligations. But, nevertheless, I think it\u2019s a reasonable point to make and something that, again, I invite the good Minister to turn her mind to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy final point, I think, depending on how well I go in expressing it in the remaining time, is perhaps a bit pedantic, but, as we\u2019re frequently reminded, and quite rightly, words do matter\u2014words have consequences. I mention that in the sense of this debate that we\u2019ve been having within the debate, the meta-level debate, about policy neutrality. We\u2019ve been invited by the Minister to talk about things and propose amendments, indeed, that are policy-neutral. She\u2019s indicated that she won\u2019t entertain ideas that change the policy settings as outlined in the Act. That much is reasonable, but, on this side of the House, we\u2019ve had different views about what \u201Cpolicy-neutral\u201D means, and I suppose the obvious point there is that because all words have meaning and all words matter, if we\u2019re changing any words, or, indeed, grammar, punctuation, and so forth, then we are changing, in some small way, the policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s the balance that we need to strike, and so it is that I say\u2014and I think in a policy-neutral way, but it will perhaps be put to the test by the Minister on this\u2014that the following phrase is ambiguous, and I\u2019ll quote it verbatim and, therefore, I hope I\u2019ll be forgiven for referring directly to the text, because exactitude is important in this matter: \u201CMSD must under this section impose a sanction if MSD considers that a person has failed without good and sufficient reason to comply with one or more obligations under this Act that are specified\u201D, and so forth. An alternative wording would be \u201CIf MSD considers that a person has without good reason failed to comply with one or more obligations under this Act\u201D, the significance being that the phrase \u201Cwithout good and sufficient reason\u201D could actually, technically\u2014syntactically, at least, it\u2019s possible\u2014refer to the phrase, and qualify the phrase, \u201CIf MSD considers\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t imagine it was the intent of the Minister and her Government that we\u2019d be talking about MSD considering without good and sufficient reason that a person has failed, etc. I think it\u2019s much more likely that she intended the wording to mean that it was the failure of the person concerned without good and sufficient reason\u2014in other words, to have failed for some reason that is sufficiently strong that would be justified in the circumstances. As I say, that seems to me the logical, the natural meaning\u2014the natural interpretation. But in these cases, of course, we are dealing not merely with my view or even, indeed, the personal view of the Minister or any other person in this House, or any other person in this Government; we are, in fact, dealing with a series of words that, together, have meaning. In the context of this legislation, they have a meaning, specifically, that certain benefits will accrue unless they\u2019re denied under the operation of this section. That is why it\u2019s so significant. That is why it\u2019s important that we have absolute clarity. And if this wording is to be the subject of a test in a court of law because the reasonableness of the decision is put to the test, then we must have clarity on that point, and I invite the Minister to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022271a6354a1a743d794538eb0b18c0a63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022271a6354a1a743d794538eb0b18c0a63\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E I find it really interesting that that member had so much to say on Part 5 given that, actually, this was one of the parts of the bill that the Social Services Committee and all sides of the House agreed on. So, in terms of how we currently have it drafted, it is almost exactly in the same form as what was given to us by them. There were very little changes because that section was actually policy-neutral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ETo come to the committee of the whole House now and throw out proposals for changes goes against what their members on the select committee had proposed at the time. There was agreement in the select committee that Part 5 was policy-neutral and that it achieved what it had set out to achieve. The only small change, if I\u2019m to be completely honest, is that clause 215, in Subpart 2, has some minor language changes, but the rest of Part 5, in terms of what we are proposing tonight, is exactly the same as what was in the rewrite from the previous Government. So to come into the committee now with these random suggestions and changes really does suggest that certain members are looking to waste the time of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022149cc253f2cf4dbbacb35bfe0112dac6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022149cc253f2cf4dbbacb35bfe0112dac6\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In some ways this is a reaction to the Minister once again suggesting that, in effect, members of this committee don\u2019t have an ability or the right to re-engage a bill as it goes through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI think in terms of Part 5 the Minister is quite correct: there are very few substantial changes. But I think one of the great things about the Westminster democratic system is that we\u2019re able to re-engage the text every time, and to try and find opportunities to make it better. I have growing concern, nay alarm, that actually there\u2019s attempt to just shut this discussion down and continue to discuss policy-neutral. We have yet to have\u2014and I\u2019m not going to belabour this too much. We\u2019ve had the terms \u201Cpolicy\u201D and \u201Cneutral\u201D pushed through without actually any definition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EWhat I need to pick up on is around sanctions around evidential drug-testing, so we\u2019re looking at clause 240 and following. The particular reason for this is because we\u2019ve had a question in the previous section, in Part 4\u2014which was not answered despite two attempts\u2014around the addition of the Substance Addiction (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act. Because of what\u2019s happened in a subsequent part, Part 4 now has contiguous elements in Part 5. When we\u2019re looking at clause 240 onwards around the evidential drug-test, most of it is fairly logical when you begin to consider a person who is capable of fulfilling the requirements as proposed here in clause 240 onwards. However, because of what was voted on, as I understand it\u2014and agreed to in the previous part\u2014we are now including or can include people who have a very high level of drug and alcohol addiction and problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAs I noted to the committee at that point\u2014I\u2019m waving something at you, Mr Chair, sorry\u2014these are people with such a high degree of damage, for want of a better word, due to drugs and alcohol that the question begins to arise whether they could ever fully engage in an evidential drug-test as prescribed now in Part 5. Their ability to engage in this evidential drug-test, again simply because we have introduced a discussion of the substance abuse Act\u2014and I\u2019m still not clear if the Minister fully understands what that Act is or has done. But we may have clients of the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) who are physically unable, even as MSD clients, to conclude an evidential drug-test as prescribed in clause 240, clause 241, through to clause at least clause 247\u2014I do apologise\u2014right through to clause 249. They physically may not be able to engage in an evidential drug-test. In fact, it reaches such a high degree of problem that you may not even be able to do a blood test. So an evidential drug-test\u2014we\u2019re talking about the likes of saliva and breath. The other thing is they may not have the mental competency or acuity to actually be able to engage that test too. So I think there is a lack of understanding, perhaps, in the wording of these clauses of how to include those people who have such a high level of impairment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo, fundamentally, I think most of it works for most New Zealanders. But the fundamental element of law is that we want to get it right first time. Now, I know we don\u2019t often get that right, but we try to do our best. So I suppose the suggestion to the Minister is, once again to explain by including or bringing within the ambit those being thought of in the substance abuse Act of 2017. We\u2019re introducing a level of client that sits outside the norm of what we\u2019d expect to see within MSD, and, therefore, they will not be able to fit what is required here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo I suppose the fundamental element that then kicks out of all of this\u2014I\u2019m trying to slowly describe it, but as I\u2019ve often found in committee stage, it\u2019s good to be accurate. These are people, arguably, who could be sanctioned\u2014who could be sanctioned\u2014for not being able to take a test. As we read through Part 5, we obviously have what the effects are, the failure to do it, the costs of a drug test, and then, particularly in clause 244, \u201CRecompliance\u201D, and then clause 243, if someone has such a high level of addiction that they cannot engage in these tests, then, first and foremost, they\u2019re going to incur more and more costs, and according to clause 244, they\u2019re not going to be able to re-comply. They\u2019ll never, in effect, be able to re-comply. So I think the Minister will probably need to address that. In fact, she may be able to point out to me that there is a clause further on within Part 5 that says basically MSD can just\u2014[Bell rung]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00223639a2a1c06d463788c7f93a541b98b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223639a2a1c06d463788c7f93a541b98b2\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E I was listening to the member Simon O\u2019Connor while I was also going through the amendments that have been tabled. The member Simon O\u2019Connor said, \u201CThere seems to be a lack of understanding of the wording in these clauses.\u201D The lack of understanding in the wording and of this part and of this entire legislation is evident in two of the amendments that have been tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t know if this is just a very bad cut-and-paste job, but we\u2019ve got one amendment that refers to Part 5, clause 232, and then in the explanatory note talks about amending clause 99, which is actually in Part 3. Then if we look at the other one that\u2019s been tabled by the Hon Louise Upston as well, which looks at Part 5, clause 217, it\u2019s got the same explanatory note pasted referring to Part 3, clause 99.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo in terms of trying to understand what the members on that side of the House are attempting to propose in terms of amendments, it\u2019s very difficult when something as simple as this happens. I suggest that perhaps the members on that side of the Chamber would like to maybe take these off the Table and fix them up so that we can actually analyse them properly, otherwise it really is a waste of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd09388b07024f1e95c2ccb7f9d4b450\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd09388b07024f1e95c2ccb7f9d4b450\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it just seems that the Minister seems to be getting a bit angry because she\u2019s not liking the debate that\u2019s happening in the committee of the whole House. The committee of the whole House is an opportunity to debate the issues. She talked about the fact that at select committee these issues weren\u2019t raised up. Now, it\u2019s not unheard that the fact is that when the bill returns back to the House, actually, amendments are quite commonly brought within the committee of the whole House\u2014that\u2019s the reason why it\u2019s there. So, actually, to have these amendments\u2014OK\u2014is not inconsistent with the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThe second thing: I\u2019m glad that, Mr Chair, you\u2019re the only adjudicator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2fff434f5c744f1b458b1fae1e9d7ef\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: And the honourable member might actually come to the amendments, rather than talk about the process about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5f2fa9f34ad465d9d7a4b8b99f9295d\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. So what I want to address is actually the comments in regards to the amendments that the Minister Carmel Sepuloni actually got up just a moment ago to talk about. I actually spoke to this amendment in regards to clause 217 in the name of Louise Upston, and the reason why we mentioned a clause in Part 3 in the explanatory note was for the purpose of consistency. If the Minister would like to look into that, I can do that for her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThe reason why the explanatory note referred to Part 3, clause 99, was because it states this: \u201CBeneficiary must notify change of circumstances\u201D. If we look at the amendment, it clearly states to insert in line one: \u201CMSD must advise P of the hierarchy of sanctions and ensure P understands the impacts of any breaches\u201D. The point that was made in this clause was to clarify the fact that there is consistency from clause 99 through to clause 217. So I just wanted to flag that. I want to put that on the record for the Minister so that she understands the purpose and the reason for that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThe other part that the Minister was talking about was Louise Upston\u2019s amendment to clause 232. Again, for clarity purposes, it\u2019s consistent with the changes\u2014what\u2019s been amended and, by the way, already supported and passed\u2014in Part 3 in clause 99, which, again, are about the issue around compliance. It reads here, in proposed amended clause 232(a): \u201Ccompliance was dependent on any assistance specified by MSD, including availability of online MSD services;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThe point in the explanatory note is the point of consistency with Part 3. So I just want to say that, you know, the Minister maybe tried to school us to go away, make changes, and come back again. If the Minister reads the explanatory notes, that\u2019s the purpose and the reason for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo I want to again look at that point\u2014and this is in clause 232 in Part 5\u2014about \u201CGood and sufficient reasons for non-compliance: default by MSD\u201D and again talk to that point around the \u201CCompliance was dependent on any assistance specified\u201D. Sorry, this is the new insert that we are seeking in this amendment. It would say this in clause 232(a), that it would read\u2014and this is the new insert\u2014\u201CCompliance was dependent on any assistance specified by MSD,\u201D and the new part is \u201Cincluding availability of online MSD services;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ENow, it may be a small part\u2014and, again, what we are saying to the Minister is clear. We\u2019re not disagreeing with the sanctions. We\u2019re not disagreeing with the policy intent of the bill. The committee of the whole House is to make small amendments, and hence the reason why these tabled amendments are simply small amendments. It\u2019s talking about including the fact that the Ministry for Social Development has the number of online services that it has. So all we\u2019re seeking from the Minister in this amendment is that she would include that inside\u2014as a small amendment, not a policy change. Policy-positive is what I like to call it\u2014not policy-neutral\u2014and this is the inclusion of this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo those are the contributions I want to make. It\u2019s to bring clarity to the explanatory notes. It\u2019s to say that the fact is that we think that\u2019s important, and, again, these are small but significant changes, as my colleague Chris Penk actually said. It\u2019s in the detail that it becomes important. It\u2019s important because when we think about those on the front line that deliver the policy platform that\u2019s in the intent of this, we want there to be no misunderstanding. We want clarity that this is exactly what the bill says, and it should be inclusive of all the different services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EWe know there\u2019s been an increase. We had that in Estimates. We talked about the increase in the number of online services that are offered through to a number of our customers\u2014those who are clients, those who are beneficiaries as well. Why can that not be included?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think this is unreasonable. I think it\u2019s a very pragmatic and practical way of including that. I hope that the Minister will again see this as something that she could include. It\u2019s policy-positive, it\u2019s a way of moving forward, and, again, it\u2019s no change to the policy intent or direction. We believe in sanctions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve yet to hear a speech from the Greens. I\u2019d love to hear that and hear what they have to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3c4bd1efbf540e681c0408d2d684c38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3c4bd1efbf540e681c0408d2d684c38\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00222c985766d78c40599a35662f5ce98b2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c985766d78c40599a35662f5ce98b2a\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019m very pleased to be taking another call on Part 5. As the Minister in the chair, Carmel Sepuloni, has pointed out, this is very much intact as it was prior to Supplementary Order Paper 25 being tabled. But, as my colleague Simon O\u2019Connor has pointed out, the committee stage is actually our opportunity to improve legislation as it goes through, and so we do take this time to analyse in some detail, and this is what our obligation is as legislators in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI go back to a tabled amendment in the name of Louise Upston. It refers to Part 5, clause 217, and it\u2019s that the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) \u201Cmust advise [the person] of the hierarchy of [the] sanctions and ensure [that person understands] the impacts of any breaches.\u201D The hierarchy of those sanctions require that for a first breach of this clause, there is a reduction in their main benefit; for the second failure, there is a suspension of a main benefit; and then, for the third failure, there is a cancellation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESo when we have a look at what the obligations of the person are, they are that they must be available for reasonable work opportunities, and the second obligation is that they must accept any reasonable offer. For my area, down in West Coast - Tasman, the seasonal workers are also a very big part of the employment opportunities that are presented to people on benefits, and so this obligation that they must accept any reasonable work offer is very reasonable indeed. The third obligation is that they must participate in interviews\u2014they must go for interviews. I can tell you that in my experience in talking to some employers, even turning up to an interview can be quite a challenge, and so I do support the fact that we have this hierarchy of sanctions that are available to MSD to implement for breaches from people who are on those benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to also go back to a contribution made by our newest MP in the House, Dan Bidois, who is from the great electorate of Northcote. He spoke to Part 5 as well, and he referred to Louise Upston\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 232(a), where the \u201CCompliance was dependent on any assistance specified by MSD, including availability of online MSD services.\u201D He did outline a few examples, but there are a few more that I would like to use to show why the online availability could be included in this bill. One of the things that comes to my mind, mainly because, I guess, I\u2019m a rural MP in the great electorate of West Coast - Tasman, is that we have absolutely no public transport. Not from one end of the electorate to the other\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca796654978142a1b632f4ae7287446b\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Not even a bus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228465d22e478943c39454ffdc4f60fee0\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014is there any opportunity for public transport. The closest we get are school buses. So having availability of those online services is absolutely essential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got to also realise that under the current environment, the ability for people to drive to MSD offices, to update or to interview, etc., is becoming more and more challenging. Part of that reason is because hardly anyone there can afford the fuel any more because of the fuel taxes that have been imposed. So the online availability is absolutely essential to people, especially in rural and provincial New Zealand. As champions of the regions, I would expect that New Zealand First would appreciate that we do need to use this technology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EWe see often in this House that we have supplementary\u2014what are those bills called when we get a whole group together?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254fae695aa504be289abb713b4d25346\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, lots of bills. Oh, cognate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b085ab0d0874d2d941ba27ad0d55722\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014can\u2019t remember. I can\u2019t remember what they\u2019re called.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022774687caffc643ae8b8a8a58ff8b4c4b\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Omnibus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c31a369f9774004aae0e142143f3e7f\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH\u003C/span\u003E: We have omnibus bills\u2014but yes, we do. We have omnibus bills where\u2014statutes amendments\u2014we parcel together a whole lot of minor changes that are required in bills, and so\u2014I\u2019ve lost my train of thought. But, anyway, I think I\u2019ve made my point, and I do think that we do have an opportunity to bring this up to date and fit for purpose for the 21st century.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002249f224a11e76492aa540ab230bf8f768\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249f224a11e76492aa540ab230bf8f768\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E Because it\u2019s more than once that they have been raised and I did talk about the fact that it seemed that the explanatory note was not fitting with the actual amendments, I\u2019m also going to point out why the amendments are not appropriate, given that Maureen Pugh has just spoken to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe first one I\u2019ll speak to is Louise Upston\u2019s one that is looking at Part 5, clause 217, and is seeking to insert, prior to line 1, \u201CMSD must advise [person] of the hierarchy of sanctions and ensure [person] understand impacts of any breaches.\u201D Basically, we won\u2019t be accepting that because it\u2019s unnecessary as clause 92 in Part 3, which we\u2019ve passed, already requires the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) to make affected clients aware of their obligations, consequences of non-compliance, and their review and appeal rights. So exactly what you\u2019re attempting to do here is covered in clause 92 in Part 3. So it\u2019s unnecessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThen the other amendment that you\u2019ve spoken to and others have spoken to in the House is under the name of the Hon Louise Upston, and it is to amend Part 5, clause 232(a): \u201CCompliance was dependent on any assistance specified by MSD, including availability of online MSD services;\u201D Currently, that\u2019s covered by \u201Cgood and sufficient reason\u201D. In terms of expanding on what good and sufficient reason might be, that\u2019s in the operational guidelines. So it is quite a long list, but it\u2019s not exhaustive, because you just don\u2019t know what circumstances people may have that may actually be good and sufficient that you couldn\u2019t account for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOne of the ones that is in the operational guidelines, to my understanding, is what\u2019s been proposed by Louise Upston, and that is the availability of online MSD services. So it is covered. We don\u2019t want to list all of these in legislation, because you\u2019d be cluttering it unnecessarily. So having it in the operational guidelines and leaving some room for discretion, so that it\u2019s not an exhaustive list\u2014and that\u2019s acknowledged\u2014means that when someone has circumstances that you may not have pre-empted that, of course, are circumstances that are good and sufficient, then there is scope there to consider those as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022 data-id=\u002252aa561b09284e14b067ae6842610008\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252aa561b09284e14b067ae6842610008\u0022\u003EJO HAYES (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you very much\u2014I was pretty quick. Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to talk to my amendment. It\u2019s in Subpart 4, under \u201COffences\u201D. It\u2019s clause 271(4), and I want to insert paragraph (c) in that clause. So what does it say? It says \u201CA person who commits an offence under this section is liable on conviction to a penalty that is\u201D, and it\u2019s got \u201Ceither or both\u201D. What I want to do is change both of those to \u201Cand\u201D. So: \u201C(a) imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months: (b) a fine not exceeding $5,000.\u201D, and my amendment is paragraph (c), which also includes \u201Cand; (c) a 13 week stand down from a benefit\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EI think that by inserting this clause, Minister, it really does drive home the seriousness of what the person committing the offence has done. It really does drive home, I guess, that penalty for her or him liable on that conviction. I want to state that because I think that in many ways\u2014yeah, imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months. It\u2019s a long time, but if you have a conviction for a penalty that keeps you in prison for 12 months, that is something very serious, and I don\u2019t see why my 13-week stand down added to those offences, Minister, cannot be added to this particular section, especially when we cover quite a lot of the areas of offences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve read through this section, I\u2019ve noted that there\u2019s some quite light-handed stuff in here. I think when people start to defraud and tell lies to MSD over receiving taxpayer-funded benefits, and they lie, then I think that the penalty should be harsh. That\u2019s why adding the 13-week stand down from a benefit is something that will actually drive home that penalty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003ESo it is without any further ado that when we start looking at offences in this particular area, I think that we do have to take all of these things really seriously. I think that, without which\u2014you know, why do it? I think the 13-week stand down from the benefit on top of those other penalties will show the seriousness of what this side of the House looks at when it comes to offences, thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003ESo, without any further ado, that is my amendment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8cd7a0cd56f40c7bf0f94f8b2695ac5\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: Lies in Opposition, eh?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d76bd3c6a534629afea731d9715c000\u0022\u003EJO HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: If you want to talk, then call for a contribution. Otherwise it might pay to just sit back and be quiet. So, yes, he\u2019s getting very, very angry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022879fb114bf27432e8af3e7e8b34050a5\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Have a Snickers!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276fd5c9c3d9744f382e4fc74c9da37e1\u0022\u003EJO HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! As I said, the offence is serious. It\u2019s a serious thing when it comes to any benefit. We need to be serious in our ability to convict and to penalise those who seek to crock the system. So I would like the Minister to adopt that and maybe contribute to this\u2014tell me why it can\u2019t be added to this particular part of this bill here. I would really like to know why we can\u2019t actually add it. So that\u2019s my question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00221eca350bdf01497b8ff421d811d34d01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eca350bdf01497b8ff421d811d34d01\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I want to take a short call on the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill, and just, firstly, respond to a couple of the comments made by Minister Sepuloni in relation to the very good amendment in the name of Louise Upston.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ENow, this amendment relates to Part 5, clause 217, and is to insert prior to line 1, \u201CMSD must advise P of the hierarchy of sanctions and ensure P understands impacts of any breaches\u201D. Now, the Minister did respond saying that that is already required elsewhere in the legislation. I think a question I\u2019ve got for the Minister\u2014and I would appreciate her commentary\u2014is: does that require the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) to also inform the beneficiary each time they get a strike? I mean I wouldn\u2019t call them a strike. That\u2019s the second point I can make a bit later, but if they were to\u2014at stage one, stage two, stage three, are they informed of the hierarchy? Are they informed of any further breaches at each step along the way? If not, I think there needs to be an obligation on MSD. If a beneficiary is going to be sanctioned at one point, shouldn\u2019t they then, therefore, be able to be given further information? If it happens again\u2014what will be the consequences if it happens again? What will be the further consequences? Should MSD be making that clear, and shouldn\u2019t there be an obligation on them to make that very clear at each step along the way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI\u2019m happy to write up a new amendment to reflect that, so as to slightly amend the one in the name of Louise Upston, if that would assist the Minister. I know that the Minister is trying to say that if it\u2019s not policy-neutral\u2014not wanting to listen. Well, this is, essentially, policy-neutral. Essentially, it\u2019s just trying to ensure that MSD\u2019s obligations are making sense. The committee stage is the place where we propose amendments which try to assist and try to ensure that the legislation is as good as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a043d310fe5c4cbc919c280ccb948681\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s starting to panic and he\u2019s still got 2\u00BD minutes left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243bb7bdcdc5843b4a79ce13f6e7aeb04\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Now, I know Mr McAnulty is sitting there across the other side of the Chamber chirping away like he knows everything, but he still hasn\u2019t taken a call on this bill, which I find to be quite surprising. It\u2019s an important piece of legislation and he is trying to make a good impression in his time here, but he should really take a call and actually talk about some of the legislation which is obviously quite impossible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo the second question I\u2019ve got, and this is, I guess, getting more towards a policy point\u2014but we do have three stages to these sanctions. In some ways it does resemble \u201Cthree strikes and you\u2019re out\u201D, because you end up having, firstly, one stage a cut, and then a second, and then you have your benefit cancelled at the end. I was wondering whether Cabinet\u2019s considered this and what support, or not, there was from the different coalition partners for that, because it does resemble, in many ways, the three-strikes legislation, which I see one part of this coalition does agree with and other parts don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAnyway, leaving that aside, I would like to move to clause 240, which is regarding the evidential drug-test. It says here in clause 240, which is \u201CRequest for evidential drug test if sanction imposed for failing screening drug test (1) A person (P) who has failed a screening drug test and has been given a section 235 notice \u2026 of a sanction on the basis of failing that test may request that P\u2019s sample taken for the screening drug test be subjected to an evidential drug test.\u201D Then, in clause 240(2): \u201CP\u2019s request for an evidential drug test\u2014(a) must be in writing in a form approved by MSD for the purpose\u201D. Now my question regarding the words \u201Cin writing\u201D is in relation to whether that is physically written down or whether that is something which can be emailed to the MSD case officer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022479fd7c436574d73b037aeb3d3c04a9b\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on. Don\u2019t forget the faxes, mate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f98086db17cd492fbebe5ceb8585b397\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: This is actually important. I know Mr McAnulty wants to chirp in again, but actually we live in the 21st century, where we use emails, and what we\u2019re talking about here is language that says \u201Cwriting\u201D. I want to know from the Minister\u2014I\u2019ve got a question for the Minister and I\u2019d like to have an answer to this question around whether \u201Cin writing\u201D should be physically in writing or online. So we need to have that clarified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI\u2019m happy to have an amendment put up there to change that to clarify the legislation to make it clear, because if MSD hasn\u2019t moved into the 21st century, then they\u2019d better, and the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill is a great opportunity for us to get them into the 21st century. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022 data-id=\u00221c843309b06e45029ccd627469da6dfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c843309b06e45029ccd627469da6dfb\u0022\u003EDr JIAN YANG (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. This is very efficient. Thank you, Mr Chair. I understand the Minister has just said that Louise Upston\u2019s amendment\u2014basically, including the availability of online assistance has actually been mentioned. So what I\u2019m going to do is I\u2019m going to focus on language assistance, because too many immigrants have difficulty in understanding the policies and understanding letters from departments. These can cause concerns or anxiety for many new immigrants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003ENow, in Part 4, I was speaking to my amendment. I didn\u2019t finish because of time limits, but I was going to say that, actually, over 10 years ago, quite a few Chinese migrants received letters from the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) regarding their so-called pensions in China. Of course, there was confusion among officials about whether what they had in China was really an overseas pension or not. In the end, of course, with the support of many other people, these Chinese community members actually approached local MPs\u2014including, actually, the Hon Phil Goff\u2014who helped to sort this out. In the end, of course, MSD officials in those years were very helpful. So the language barrier was overcome because of support from the Department of Internal Affairs\u2019 Ethnic Office\u2014what we now call the Office of Ethnic Communities. So with the support of those departments people were able to communicate with all sorts of agencies, but MSD is particularly important because so many migrants need the support of MSD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EOnce they received a letter in English\u2014often they are not able to really understand accurately\u2014they would have support from people, either translators or from those community associations, so it is important for MSD to provide language support at certain stages. Now we understand that we have all sorts of support for new immigrants. Language support is a key part. I understand that in the police we now have many people who can speak Mandarin or can speak other languages who are there to support all these ethnic groups. We also understand that we have Language Line, where people can get support for various services. So it is important for MSD to either make sure that they have volunteers there to support these people, or they have staff to support these new migrants\u2014particularly when they are trying to deliver some very important messages or notices. So it is important for them to make sure that these migrants are able to understand the messages. This kind of support, I believe, is particularly important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EThe Minister mentioned that online services are there\u2014which is good of course\u2014but, at the same time, whether we are able to have information in different languages online is another matter we may look at. For example, I understand that earlier this year\u2014actually, a few months ago\u2014the Minister of Education was going to do a survey, but they used English without some other very important languages for other very important ethnic communities, including Mandarin, Chinese, Korean, and all these people. They don\u2019t have language for these people. So it is important for us to understand that all services\u2014important services\u2014need to be provided in different languages so that we make sure that all communities are connected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EMSD is a very important part of the Government. Without proper language support, many of our ethnic community members will not be able to get the service or could be penalised because of that misunderstanding. So that is a key part of our services. I hope that not only will we have online services but we will also have online language services. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022d59f04dc275a4059aedd13b9c2d61286\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d59f04dc275a4059aedd13b9c2d61286\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fec89ad9573a4208a840b00e2ba77882\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000822\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 25 in the name of the Hon Carmel Sepuloni to Part 5 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022365f539fa03a4ef29b94ccc1c8c85235\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000823\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Louise Upston to clause 217 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000824\u0022\u003Einsert before the first line:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000825\u0022\u003EMSD must advise P of the hierarchy of sanctions and ensure P understands impacts of any breaches.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002262ab3d9be5334226bece044355ecc908\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000826\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Louise Upston to clause 232 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000827\u0022\u003Ein paragraph (a), replace \u201CMSD;\u201D with \u201CMSD, including availability of online MSD services;\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ed877b64644e45ca924b24f02ecb765f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000828\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Jian Yang to clause 232 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000829\u0022\u003Ein paragraph (a), replace \u201CMSD;\u201D with \u201CMSD, including language assistance;\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022532d1b25f82242699de3f2b7ec8aef44\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000830\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Jo Hayes to clause 271 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000831\u0022\u003Einsert, after subclause (4)(b), the following new paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000832\u0022\u003E(c)\ta 13 week stand down from a benefit.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002259ef1adf61524966b5cbd3568b64371c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002260e3848e3787431ebc57ebf3d519ea12\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022427e512008304e0399e000a91763ae70\u0022\u003EPart 6  Administration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022f36d71c022af436c82bf0d5f8c1d96e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f36d71c022af436c82bf0d5f8c1d96e2\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m not sure if we\u2019ve been sent here tonight as a collective group to torture Matt King, but\u2014[Interruption] Look, we have, in many ways, moved through a lot of the substance of the bill now. Part 6, however, is quite long, but is particularly around the administration of what we\u2019ve been through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo as has been noted before, this is a bill in 10 parts, of about 600 pages. To be fair, it is mainly the existing text with some rewrites. But Part 6 is titled \u201CAdministration\u201D and is broken down into a series of subparts, which are really about how one applies, inquires, grants, and commences benefits, how one ends benefits, the expiries and the payments, and tax and deduction. So it\u2019s not the sexy part of the bill, but it is sort of the engine, if you will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBecause it\u2019s the engine and because it needs to be an effective mechanism, I do have a particular issue around clause 289A, in Supplementary Order Paper 25, which is around the termination of the winter energy payment\u2014so that\u2019s clause 289A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022053d018004db4ac0a8205ffec16d4ee0\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: It is getting cold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222163a5c0a3234776bd9aee611d12befb\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I know, it is getting cold here, Mr Brown, but that\u2019s not why I\u2019m raising it. Look, the winter energy payment has been done to death as a concept, and I don\u2019t intend to relitigate that part of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7aabde57f4c44a3aa8bc8a2f90012b7\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: It is a dead concept.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0b91a9c0060458ab859400733fdbfde\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Someone has suggested it\u2019s a dead concept. But my concern really is the almost circular nature of how this particular clause\u2014it\u2019s a new insertion by the Minister. In many ways, why is it added here and why is it in the form that it is? The issue that we\u2019ve got is we\u2019ve got effective insertion almost randomly\u2014that\u2019s indicated by the fact that it\u2019s clause 289A rather than a whole new number. It\u2019s just in between clause 289, which is about another benefit being more appropriate, and clause 290 about certain benefits being granted. So it\u2019s unclear to me in terms of the legal progress why it\u2019s just randomly been inserted there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut the fundamental problem is that clause 289A here in Part 6 says \u201CAfter the review\u201D\u2014whatever \u201Cthe\u201D review is. And that\u2019s a problem right from the start because it\u2019s using the definite article rather the indefinite article\u2014that is, \u201Cthe\u201D rather than \u201Ca\u201D. So what is \u201Cthe\u201D review? I would imagine, again, having been in the Ministry of Social Development (MSD), that there are reviews in the plural, so, you know, I would expect the indefinite article. But then: \u201CMSD may terminate a winter energy payment\u201D\u2014fortunately, it\u2019s the payment, not the person, though that would also achieve the same end. But: \u201CMSD may terminate a winter energy payment under section 65F\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo what we have is a section here in Part 6 which then refers back to something in Part 2. The problem we run into immediately is clause 65F talks about \u201CWinter energy payment: termination on review\u201D\u2014I\u2019m not going to read the whole thing, but then it says to terminate you have to go back to section 285 and also section 289A. So we start in Part 6, and Part 6 refers us to Part 2, and Part 2 then refers us back to Part 6. By this time I\u2019m getting rather confused. Now, some on that side might suggest it\u2019s a matter of mental ability, but I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the case. So we\u2019ve got a confused section, fundamentally. Why is it put in here at this point? Why then is clause 289A referring back to Part 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EWhen you get to Part 2, you\u2019re immediately sent back to Part 6\u2014in this case clause 285, in the first instance, which is around the entitlement and rate payable. When you look at clause 285(1)(a), and this is in Part 6, it says that MSD may review a benefit\u2014I\u2019m expurgating here\u2014where the beneficiary is or remains entitled to receive the benefit. Well, one would assume that if someone has received the winter energy payment based on age\u2014as I understand it, that\u2019s how you receive it\u2014it\u2019s sort of nonsensical to suggest that that may not remain. I suppose that could be a question of whether that\u2019s the fundamental criterion, but we\u2019re not talking like a sickness benefit here, where the condition may abate or change; we\u2019re talking about a winter energy payment based on a person\u2019s age and the season.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo if you\u2019ve gone from Part 6 back to Part 2, jumping back to Part 6, clause 285(1)(a), we\u2019re talking here that there remains\u2014[Bell rung] Thank you very much. One of the things you learn, the MP for Northland, is a little bit of humility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut, fundamentally, what we\u2019ve got here, then, as I said, first and foremost, is backwards and forwards within a situation where the termination of payment is based on, say, a remaining entitlement. So I suppose there\u2019s some confusion of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f789508e3e242d399de370a84c8aa57\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: We want to hear from Matt King.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206d67d75e96845f69afcb6b2d0bb3c3c\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: He has put me off\u2014that\u2019s right. It\u2019s one of the striking things that through the interjections of Mr McAnulty, he\u2019s given about four speeches in this entire thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut, fundamentally, clause 285(1)(a) is basically working out whether a winter energy payment continues on the original basis of entitlement. As I was saying, if this was a sickness benefit, it makes sense. You go back and you review, because that illness may have gone, dissipated, or so forth, or in such a way that someone can return to work. The winter energy payment\u2014as I said, its two legs are, effectively, age and, effectively, the season, so it doesn\u2019t make a lot of sense to me why that\u2019s one of the reasons. Clause 285(1)(b) does make a lot of sense. Where the beneficiary was not entitled to receive the benefit, I can certainly understand that MSD may review and decide for some reason\u2014I don\u2019t know; for theory\u2019s sake that the person had fraudulently indicated their age, forgot that they\u2019d received the letter, or something like that\u2014that they may want to review it. But we just have a fundamental lack of clarity here in the way that it is completely structured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ETo make matters worse, I would suggest, once you\u2019ve dealt with clause 285, which is relatively substantial\u2014there\u2019s a series of other parts\u2014well, actually clause 285(3) then puts someone through an enormous process of review, which, again, doesn\u2019t reflect the simplicity of clause 289A. All of a sudden, someone who\u2019s receiving a fairly minimal contribution is now having to go through at least a series of reviews by the committee and appeal to authority, the courts, and even a medical board. So there\u2019s a proportionality question, I think, which is arising in the structure of this part, and it all comes from the insertion of this termination of the winter energy payment in clause 289A, and, fundamentally, why it turns back to section 65F. I haven\u2019t had the opportunity to table an amendment to make it clearer, but, actually, there are, I suspect, and suggest, ways of making clause 289 easier, in nominating what would be the very particular reasons that one might terminate a winter energy payment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAgain, I think the fundamental point here is that this is, in some ways, an allowance by age and by season. It is not based on one\u2019s youth, on one\u2019s employability, on one\u2019s sickness, illness, solo parenthood, or otherwise. So, in effect, what we\u2019re doing here, or what is being done by introducing clause 289A, in Part 6, is beginning to put New Zealanders who are receiving the winter energy payment into a rather complicated system of review, and I think it\u2019s symbolically suggested by the very fact that we have to go to Part 2, which sends you back to Part 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAs I noted, though, once you\u2019ve got to Part 2, it then also sends you back, which is really confusing, and I\u2019m hoping the lawyers may assist me. While I\u2019ve already, I think, indicated why it\u2019s odd to go from clause 289A\u2014it says, \u201CCheck out section 65F\u201D; section 65F says, \u201Cclause 285\u201D. It goes on to say, \u201CSee also section 289A\u201D. In other words, section 289A, in Part 6, says, \u201CGo to clause 65F\u201D, and clause 65F says, \u201CGo and look at section 289A\u201D. This is a circular clause\u2014a circular argument. It is nonsensical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fecca5b91604583af255f3edfd4378a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: I thought you were a monarchist, Simon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e43630a54a444cc09ca21963765fc471\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s policy circular\u2014it\u2019s not only neutral, this is policy circular. It makes no sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ENow, look, I am happy to admit\u2014look, even Her Majesty would be upset about this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fc047bb2c3048c1914d86d2315cb5f8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Sit down. Members do not bring Her Majesty into the debate, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022334f07a4f77642abac5808f1ae864b1c\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. It is quite correct, and the great thing about that is that there\u2019s another eight seconds. So, marvellous! But, really, what I\u2019m saying is that we\u2019ve got, effectively, a circular debate here. So I\u2019d really welcome the Minister, if she\u2019s able to take a call today or, obviously, in future discussions on why this is so circular. As I said, fundamentally, clause 289A refers to Part 2, and that, in itself, just sends it straight back there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b02fa55398784ba59c22b109ae37e6ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b02fa55398784ba59c22b109ae37e6ff\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E That member, Simon O\u2019Connor, who was just speaking, was attempting to say that Part 6, in terms of what\u2019s being proposed through Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 25, is nonsensical. I just want to say that member is nonsensical. It was very hard to follow his argument when it was based on so many factually incorrect assertions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EFirstly, I need to inform that member that the winter energy payment is not based on age. Superannuitants, veterans\u2014yes\u2014but also all main beneficiaries can get access to the winter energy payment. So it is not age-related in any way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAlso, that member kept referring to the sickness benefit and the invalid\u2019s benefit. Unless the member is citing legislation pre-2013, when those benefits actually still existed, then I have no idea what he\u2019s talking about, because they haven\u2019t existed since 2013, when his Government, at the time\u2014the previous Government\u2014changed the legislation and folded what the terms of those were into what became the supported living payment. So, as I said, it was very difficult to follow that member\u2019s argument because of the fact that there were so many factually incorrect assumptions and statements made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo perhaps reading the actual SOP would bring him up to speed with more recent legislation, and perhaps next time he won\u2019t start his speech by referring to my lack of intelligence, when, clearly, someone has not read the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022 data-id=\u00228a77f1f8c49e4025bf3f5446f5f0d0b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a77f1f8c49e4025bf3f5446f5f0d0b1\u0022\u003EMATT KING (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve never had to work so hard to get a call. Raymond Huo and Jamie Strange have been sitting on the edge of their seats waiting for this contribution, and I didn\u2019t want to be outdone and have the thunder stolen by Dan Bidois on his first day in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EI would like to refer to clause 301, \u201CEffect of no longer being subject to work-preparation obligations\u201D, and then subclause (1)(b)(i): \u201Ca general obligation of the person under section\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00220df06c11471b4aeeb4d20f71de8a718f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220df06c11471b4aeeb4d20f71de8a718f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to interrupt the member. [Interruption] Order! I\u2019m on my feet. Sorry to interrupt the member, it\u2019s come time for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf (Environmental Effects) Amendment Bill with amendment, progress on the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill, and no progress on the Military Justice Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180704aad06ccf214c425997d14e77aff84a22000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"