"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a0ef1a8de8449f597d0e72acab69485\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 27 SEPTEMBER 2018\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc1a004fce3c4efab2773e9a3717387a\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 27 SEPTEMBER 2018\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af6b6cd782044a8388b74ea0c461639f\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022080a994bd8f84cd9a8f640269cb6a2f7\u0022\u003EFrance, Republic of\u2014Senate, Delegation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd88967daec543b9a72adb55a7ca4043\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd88967daec543b9a72adb55a7ca4043\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that members would wish to welcome Mrs Annick Billon, Mr \u00C9ric Jeansannetas, and Mr J\u00E9r\u00F4me Bascher, Senators from the Republic of France, who are present in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab365dc08ad24e69b3fc2beb2727e3aa\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da5cd37313bd449fbc9939aecdfc2be9\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u002259d95994b7a34fe3849fb1932e008175\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259d95994b7a34fe3849fb1932e008175\u0022\u003EHon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Acting Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E The House next sits on Tuesday, 16 October. The business for that week will include the committee stage of the Telecommunications (New Regulatory Framework) Amendment Bill, the Courts Matters Bill, and the Tribunals Powers and Procedures Legislation Bill, and the first reading of the Equal Pay Amendment Bill. The Government will move to extend the sitting of Tuesday, 16 October until 1 p.m. on Wednesday, 17 October. Wednesday, 17 October will be a members\u2019 day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022999cd9db1a6f46daa8afc9c5329ea292\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022999cd9db1a6f46daa8afc9c5329ea292\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Does the Leader of the House realise that the bills he\u2019s circulated for consideration in extended hours in the hope that the Opposition might agree to select committees sitting are all bills that have been returned to the House by select committees due to sit that morning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5ecdc5b270c4cbe9a173d821d5882ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5ecdc5b270c4cbe9a173d821d5882ce\u0022\u003EHon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Acting Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Actually, no, I wasn\u2019t aware that that list had been circulated. I will certainly check that list. It is the Government\u2019s intention to ensure that bills considered under the extended period do not clash with select committees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002291957b5127844abf8c82d8485847885e\u0022\u003ETabling of Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a7b104dd01245f6811cf0a29c9fbfaf\u0022\u003EDocuments Relating to the Chief Technology Officer Position\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d59cce5b111c4101b07572f1f577bc4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d59cce5b111c4101b07572f1f577bc4b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Acting Minister of State Services):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a set of documents relating to the Chief Technology Officer position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00224f0c794b3c6042de8692f1058ef50f36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f0c794b3c6042de8692f1058ef50f36\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that process? There appears to be none. They will be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c9a3ad614fce4384b34513dc0a37ebe2\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022783d5ab341554aadbf31833af31c1bfc\u0022\u003EMahatma Gandhi\u2014150th Birth Anniversary\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9807604056d4dfd9b2757e68dd357aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9807604056d4dfd9b2757e68dd357aa\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice or debate on the 150th birth anniversary of Mahatma Gandhi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022275ccbebc28142229a2b49f26324be40\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f133a6449b074d4689b4f514bee35d27\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That this House joins the Indian diaspora in celebrating the 150th birth anniversary of Mahatma Gandhi, the father of a nation, and note that Mahatma Gandhi used the notion of civil disobedience to organise peasants, farmers, and urban labourers to protest against excessive land tax and discrimination, and inspired many others to the path of non-violence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002256f3023fd3b346c3b187439b4f3a20a5\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022932d839f21744dd2b5690d05ab7d6804\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022822171b8957b4385bd2945a15913eb3e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7e92a85b04d44959abf0e4cddd34979\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7e92a85b04d44959abf0e4cddd34979\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002224bc41250dcd446d84446d64e2d0d888\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224bc41250dcd446d84446d64e2d0d888\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a756f7b7c0e4a1cb68f83def873a17e\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned that Meka Whaitiri still disputes the allegations of physical contact when the report details there were bruises left on the victim caused by physical contact?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a756a571780644409d5845b63c6264cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The report is still private. There has been a leak. That leak is being investigated and the Government has supported that inquiry. We will find who the leaker is but, of course, we don\u2019t have the advantage of launching an inquiry into a leak whilst knowing who the leaker was in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a823b2238341f4874f0da5d5e5feae\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was very much about whether or not they still dispute allegations and not actually about the leak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbfaa3768c4145c4855154c5bbc0c0d0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and it was right at the margins of responsibility and, in my opinion, as much as the Minister was responsible for, was addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022187d574779d34b75876dcf1df9414441\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Do the actions of Meka Whaitiri make her a good role model?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225cf560a5bf64c3c80b2b2eee1044ad1\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was intending to take one if you hadn\u2019t ruled how you had previously. Meka Whaitiri is no longer a Minister in the Government and I think\u2014you are obviously considering the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bafe9dd52be14165950714f857bb810c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I accept that, but I don\u2019t think one needs to be a\u2014we could have had a lot of extra words in the question but I think we are talking about the actions of someone while she was a Minister and therefore the Prime Minister will answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237dcee81f40142fe967ff15fb114772f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is that Meka Whaitiri has lost her ministerial position. That said, Meka Whaitiri in her past has been a standout woman who has made an enormous contribution to Ngati Porou and, indeed, M\u0101oridom, and just because there may or may not have been a lapse is no reason for that member to repose on me the responsibility of being able to judge the worth or value of women. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225370b9549eaf41dbb301476fc40ffc75\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Has anybody in the Government apologised to the victim?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ed420918dd8489c947a1aa7b6698d56\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just say that the victim is not known to me. The report is still confidential and is being released, and the delay to protect the so-called, or alleged victim\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f3cccbc3d094685a26265520982814e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286bd4ab4125b4f7fb4bdbf289042bc51\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m answering the question in the way a lawyer would, not the way some twit like you would. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220759624822c94755849434fcedb5f982\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Yes, I can\u2014[Interruption] When I call order I expect to get order from both sides. I understand what the Acting Prime Minister was trying to do and I\u2019m not going to require him to withdraw and apologise, but I ask him to take care not to draw me into his reaction to interjections, whatever their quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254f14d77e9154e04b8c952f29d22811c\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the reported statement, \u201CInstead of going on the defensive, M\u0101ori leaders and MPs have a responsibility to publicly acknowledge the problem and urgently address it, and M\u0101ori attitudes towards violence will not change until M\u0101ori leaders acknowledge the problem.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c589827acdd44658de910f9b8ce8601\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: To the best of my memory, Meka Whaitiri does not agree with that statement, does not agree with the allegation that that member is now joining from a secret report which is not available to me at this point in time. Let me make it very clear: we\u2019ll wait till the report finally comes out in its entirety, and then we\u2019ll be in a position to answer the House and the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c27824ce640c471f98b852fcd62a9342\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table that statement, which was made by the Rt Hon Winston Peters, and was sourced from the Parliamentary Library.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f744430e5404b54a927c3894f35229f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the member what the original source of the document is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022761f6e95e04d45ca838d832b0f293d9c\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: It was a press statement, but I\u2019ve googled and cannot find it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f7e7db40cbd41debbc8c9751bb2ef2f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019m not putting the leave, and I say to the deputy leader of the Opposition, in future can she give original sources of documents. Something that is got through the library does not disguise the fact\u2014or should not be an attempt to be a disguise of the fact\u2014that it\u2019s the type of document that, as my predecessors have made very clear, means members are disorderly when they seek to table them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220edd8ea95c014125b2829df2e3c3f3d9\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to that, I searched for it and I thought the criteria was if it\u2019s not readily available, which it wasn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7b1a9a61e064f3d8f8ba02524b5167e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no. If it\u2019s a press statement, if it\u2019s available online, then we don\u2019t seek leave to table them here, and that has been made abundantly clear for the entire time that that member has been a member of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eb3474d4f8f4bf7aadd1d75e621985a\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by Megan Woods\u2019 statement that the Prime Minister was not actively involved in the appointment of Derek Handley as Chief Technology Officer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226188289df9a14c15ab1972736d1445ad\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Utterly, and so does Mr Handley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022251251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdd25b5d1c4f40ecaed883db75e14f59\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister exchange 23 messages with Clare Curran, discussing in detail the appointment of Derek Handley as Chief Technology Officer (CTO)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f44be38b86344586a5869a07e21feefc\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I have to confess that I haven\u2019t seen all of the thousand or so pages at this point in time, but I have been prepared to come down to this House knowing full well that the Prime Minister left this process in the hands of Clare Curran, and that she is totally blameless on the question of her involvement, if that member seeks to say that there\u2019s some sort of improper behaviour on the Prime Minister\u2019s part. The Prime Minister was at great pains to ensure\u2014and there is evidence of that, when she says she\u2019s going to leave it to Clare Curran in terms of the role. That, of course, is backed up by a man called Handley, and thank God for him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216257a8bc4b24884be63cb6b136d48ec\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister\u2019s chief press secretary proactively text Derek Handley, exchange 13 text messages with him, and call him at least twice to discuss his appointment as Chief Technology Officer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d5fde04bb1c4bf3913a5c9799e59e26\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That is a fallacious allegation. First of all, a series\u2014[Interruption] No. A series of events is put up, and then an improper interpretation of them is put up in the question, and I\u2019m happy to debunk the second interpretation. Yes, there was some communication\u2014there were communications. None of it concerns the CTO\u2019s job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b1861f335f24be598a2871ba1c8ea50\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Then why were they released in the papers that the Minister has just tabled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2602f29a6e7448c89c0597aacef5990\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Because this is a very transparent Government, and we believe in total, complete, full disclosure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022617081255622480888d7b8804e32d98e\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister\u2019s chief of staff call Derek Handley to discuss his offer to help and support the Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220faaa8f45dd44151ac7e67f396826118\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know how many people work for the Prime Minister\u2019s office, but I can see me answering questions for everybody that was there. The fact of the matter is it is the Prime Minister who is not involved here, and that is the truth in this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222388d47816f7455fa5e0eb612ec82954\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: So does he still stand by Megan Woods\u2019 statement that the Prime Minister was not actively involved in the appointment of Derek Handley?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecfd18c08fa144b1be5b1245a5a471f2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I have been driven, from the very beginning, to support the honesty of Megan Woods in that matter. She\u2019s been utterly truthful about that, and that member\u2019s got a thousand things to start poring over to try and find some evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6ef3342e6914a178d0a84a68bf871f6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0ac88fa33764de499e1ff7c3865a9d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0ac88fa33764de499e1ff7c3865a9d0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Is it a goal of the Government\u2019s economic development policy for New Zealanders to enjoy higher incomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002268313d75b31b426ca760099ace4eba5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268313d75b31b426ca760099ace4eba5b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, along with establishing a more productive and sustainable economy overall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224eb8e8db5a649a19d94b5eec5dc0ed5\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Which of these things is most likely to lead to higher incomes: banning new offers for offshore oil and gas exploration, reducing foreign investment when any land is involved\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225319e02a87d44e2488faf6aaff47ee8d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! That\u2019s two. We don\u2019t do multi-choice here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201770905fdca413b9658228a2692325f\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022041272ad211f44998471201b28e02b03\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not a point of order. I have ruled that the question is finished\u2014\u201CWhich of [the following]\u201D, and the member gave two alternatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b229f1362e4e4a7a8565922a007c85fa\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The decision around oil and gas is part of an overall plan for New Zealand to have a more sustainable economy, to be able to build on the brand that we\u2019re all proud of in New Zealand about being a clean, green country, to harness the innovative potential of New Zealanders in a new technology, in clean technology. I would encourage the member to listen to the Mayor of New Plymouth, who\u2019s actually echoing exactly those thoughts when he says we can have a robust economy under this policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223daa02804eae46bebb20211f076cf8fb\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it true that there are a lot of things that New Zealanders have done in the past to make a living that he doesn\u2019t like, and, if so, what would he prefer New Zealanders did?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229817636f58ff4447a232f448113bb008\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Goldsmith might want to look in the rear-vision mirror, but this Government, on this side of the House, is looking to the future, where we do want people in high-paying jobs. That means investing in research and development, that means making sure the economy\u2019s more sustainable, and that means making sure that every New Zealander gets a fair go. If the member opposite doesn\u2019t agree with that, more\u2019s the pity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cc6dbc741ac41a592f24638638d83c4\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How are New Zealanders going to get ahead if costs such as petrol prices, ACC levies today, and rents are rising faster?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250cd7cd4ea4140ec8c213a8a1ca778af\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I could challenge almost every one of those, but what I can say is that, on this side of the House, we made sure that one of the first decisions that we made was to reverse tax cuts that would have given Mr Goldsmith and me $1,000 a year and, instead, put that in to lifting the incomes of the lowest-paid people in New Zealand, making sure that families have more money. On this side of the House, we\u2019ve got our priorities right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bf202fb90e34cc0850fa0c7d2392bd3\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that the costs this Government is piling on to owners of rental properties are flowing through to a reduced supply of rental properties and to higher rents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbec8a1423734bc99575ea6e5b5447a6\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t answer the question about the supply of rental properties, but what I can say is that, in terms of rents, as I told the House, I believe, yesterday, the median rent increased 5 percent since the coalition Government was sworn in. The median rent during National\u2019s last year in office rose by 5.3 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290685f7d307940b0a7678e9510954da6\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: What typically comes first\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e110b2aec1ce43919bfa5094c036972f\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: The chicken!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e36b1dcc085488798bfcc68ff4bc6b4\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225197998c563041059e41528db7329933\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014higher productivity, leading to sustainable, higher incomes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eba35f7ec4044d26b24a110a342a5606\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bdf03a6700c40d4bccff4a490d51776\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or higher incomes mandated by the State, leading to higher productivity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220db4e6b214d54c69a87dac6c3a3efbd7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: What this Government is doing is realising that, yes, we do need to drive higher productivity to help lift wages, but guess what\u2014newsflash\u2014the Government can do something as well, like lifting the minimum wage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002242ff3e8725fb4c319c9d5655f0826130\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00222b06cd2905b548fdb35fce8835ab497c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b06cd2905b548fdb35fce8835ab497c\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9cf34b6e8d847e9abe79ee220a52570\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9cf34b6e8d847e9abe79ee220a52570\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E This week, CBRE released its latest MarketView report. It shows New Zealand\u2019s commercial property market is having its strongest showing in nearly five years, with investors buying $2.9 billion of commercial property. The executive chairman of CBRE, Brent McGregor, said the New Zealand market was \u201Cactive and attractive\u201D\u2014not a label I would apply to myself but to the New Zealand commercial property market\u2014\u201Cwith a mix of institutions and private investors buying [commercial property].\u201D Mr McGregor said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cdd4ec1cd4c4e6b8c61c8c655aab992\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, straight out of residential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209a759b00d244afebee7fca0f4296fe4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Gerry, listen up\u2014these buyers would be long-term investors in the country. On this side of the House, we welcome this vote of confidence in the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229efc19559b8f4998a05b728d8cc00ceb\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has he seen on the overall state of the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d03e30152a5e4265a761a6e5b9f83fe2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We had a helpful reminder today about the state of the New Zealand economy and the Government\u2019s fiscal management in BusinessDesk journalist Pattrick Smellie\u2019s latest column. Mr Smellie said that \u201Cbudget surpluses, low inflation, low unemployment, low government debt, rising wages, enviable annual growth rates compared to our peers, and a reaffirmed Aaa credit rating are proof the economy is in reasonable nick.\u201D\u2014this Government right here. Of course, we should not get complacent, and Mr Smellie also wrote about the risks facing the economy, namely the international situation and the potential for trade wars. We must make sure that New Zealand addresses this and New Zealand\u2019s infrastructure and skills bottlenecks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f6b6dd0f57943eb9231322c81a2fa99\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing to address this bottleneck?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e47323ae15254129a029cf34a7ca8356\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The coalition Government recognises that after years of under-investment in infrastructure and training, we need to catch up. That\u2019s why we\u2019re making record investment in New Zealand\u2019s nationwide transport infrastructure, including a $28 billion package alongside Auckland Council. We\u2019re also rolling out targeted training programmes like micro-credentials, like Mana in Mahi, alongside the fees-free post - secondary school study. On this side of the House, we understand that it is an active Government working alongside the business sector and training providers that will break through these bottlenecks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4a1da43a2884cbfba07745d5b1e9395\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister as to whether or not, if someone had as his business experience five weeks as a director of a casino, that member would be attracted to this economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb7936bf6c4040ccb05ae86cc6956786\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Question No. 4\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228457b5deaec643e7b2685356116fd9be\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ed19caf580848498c339c9c8a2409be\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If I need to explain it to the Acting Prime Minister, I will. It is an area of ministerial responsibility, and a general question like that about casino experience and the economy is one which Ministers are not responsible for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229d65aa75b2a4ff8823fac8302ac602a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ec01c521b6a4aeeaf1148f06cf4047d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve dealt with the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250871eec203c46ae9711a931dbb55aa5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I understand, but the reality is there are many elements to the market that might be attracted to New Zealand\u2019s present economy. I could\u2019ve asked whether it be the farming economy, the fishing economy, or, dare I say it, the timber economy, but I asked about a specific industry called casinos, and I wouldn\u2019t have thought, in that category, I was being limited from making that inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fdeb4e5376a4b56b41fcedc75c419ea\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I\u2019ll give the member another reason for ruling it out, and that is that patsy supplementaries from the Government are not allowed to be used to attack the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab12540263be49d5b08316fef80642e2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Conservation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00220588833fcd8b42bd9eeec7bdaa9a094e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220588833fcd8b42bd9eeec7bdaa9a094e\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: Has she done wrong by the hunting and tourism community in the way she has consulted on her department\u2019s proposal to cull tahr; if not, why does she think the consultation she has undertaken has been appropriate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddd19eb3fde142e7916b091cfc5904f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddd19eb3fde142e7916b091cfc5904f7\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E No. What is wrong is that National\u2019s neglect and its underfunding of the Department of Conservation allowed tahr numbers to explode, devastate our threatened alpine plants and habitats, and what is wrong\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022817108108ace4e788721709f4a01a98b\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d13d7ebd914f58b730a55b015a7bbe\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014is that under National\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022264ddea6a9ce46449a84311acf315e89\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! A point of order, the Hon Gerry Brownlee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b98a2f059cb46279e71aabb46bcb78b\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I make a plea for some consistency. You\u2019ve just been very, very strong in putting the Deputy Prime Minister back in his place over what was an attack question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f577b2af2b4401cb67ba0ea1dc5cb37\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s not referring to something I\u2019ve dealt with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7768ec979774b5d86d88bf3cd535255\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yeah, I\u2019m getting there\u2014but you\u2019ve just allowed the Hon Eugenie Sage to justify her entire position by, effectively, an erroneous attack on the current Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261b05fcd48574986abe163e86650d454\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think the member might have been making some progress until the very end of it, when he drew my attention to the fact that there are disputed facts in the answer. It\u2019s not my job to make a judgment around those facts. Can the member start the answer again, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc21618b31c14bc48462e5dbbc38553c\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. No. What is wrong is that National\u2019s neglect and underfunding of the Department of Conservation allowed tahr numbers to explode, to devastate our alpine plants and alpine habitats, and that it stopped engaging with the Tahr Liaison Group. Under this Government, we have given the biggest increase in funding to the Department of Conservation in 16 years. That enables the department to properly implement the statutory Himalayan Tahr Control Plan. The department has consulted and engaged with members of the hunting community, and so am I. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257e5deeb6eb741b9bc5affc25195bd4b\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: Is the real reason she\u2019s been forced to postpone her tahr kill and reduce the number of tahr to be killed because the Department of Conservation has received two legal letters from recreational hunting groups threatening judicial review unless she enters into proper and meaningful consultation with hunters? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b272f3be6434fe3b3c7fa91d4ef8fc7\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: The tahr control effort is going to proceed as planned. There has been consultation with the Tahr Liaison Group. There is another meeting with the group next week. I will be attending that meeting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7bd4faa743845fab22ccdd2691ecdbb\u0022\u003EAndrew Falloon\u003C/span\u003E: Is today\u2019s Timaru Herald article correct that as part of a postponement, the number of tahr to be culled will reduce from the original plan; if so, how many tahr will be culled under the revised plan and why? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8f6c6b4ba86452084e46b1bf1af4c02\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: The plan is for the Department of Conservation to control 10,000 tahr. The meeting with the Tahr Liaison Group proposed that other hunting stakeholders also contribute to that control effort. There is further discussion on how many tahr groups like wild animal recovery operations operators and the Safari Club International will be controlling. The plan to control 10,000 tahr is proceeding, because the former National Government allowed them to explode to three times what the plan allows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1b6d2c046eb4b00afb203d64c46b648\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Stop lying to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f2553e72d434e898e9efa28d33221b3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Mr Brownlee? Did the member make an unparliamentary comment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cfca94791e9494780d7986223922e87\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206736e2203634711a9918a109afdbdf3\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that the Department of Conservation has stopped using lead shot for West Coast predator control because of high levels of lead found in kea but that they\u2019ve purchased 14,000 rounds of lead buckshot that they intend to use for her tahr cull? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb997ad6648e41f7b3f3a2542b8d7b66\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: My advice is that the department is well aware of the problems caused by lead to kea, and that it will be using ammunition which does not result in the risk of lead poisoning to kea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e03329911ec24af897620524bec67f3f\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister been handing out weapons to her public servants, as alleged by the National Party Twitter account? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282be3ad13f544f68900f6e45200acb68\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227911d9383a44176951acca089fe088e\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that she has instructed the Department of Conservation to use helicopters to herd tahr, and that they will be slaughtering bull, nanny, and baby tahr with shotguns from these helicopters? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6ec9adc06af45e3a5c98a60297cd7be\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: I know the member is a very keen hunter and is a member of the Rotorua Deerstalkers Association, but what National is, effectively, saying is that the Department of Conservation should not be shooting tahr to protect our mountain lands and alpine plants; it should simply allow the hunters to do that. Recreational hunters have had\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022259baf6e7e544c0d84f20532ab60d4c2\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It would not be hard to make a case that that answer impugns the motives of the questioner; that\u2019s quite unreasonable. Secondly, there is no way that the balance of the answer delivered today answers this very simple question that\u2019s asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233038406f44642b6bc7790c35644cbb9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that I was contemplating the first part of the answer, and I think it wasn\u2019t quite an improper reflection on a member of the House, but the tone of it was heading in that direction. It\u2019s not something I expect from that Minister. The next point that I would make to the Hon Gerry Brownlee is that I am sure that soon the Minister answering the supplementary question will get to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022939cd1824a0542cb9fc3da6a9f640297\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister like to repeat the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fec397b68bb64a00a247a2c80c88726e\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: The member would love to, yes. Can she confirm that she has instructed the Department of Conservation to use helicopters to herd tahr, and that they will slaughter bull, nanny, and baby tahr with shotguns from these helicopters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ac364cb5d7c4568b9010ff652d8fb3e\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: I have not instructed the department to do that, but the department will be using aerial control. It needs to do the control operation now before there is another breeding increment this summer. And, yes, it will be using shotguns, in the same way that hunters use guns to kill tahr themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022123aef46060e46059845561406b73ceb\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Will there be any tahr left in New Zealand, once \u201CTahrmaggedon\u201D is over?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223963214851c844ad904612995d7ce7f9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002230f01620d5264e26b8c3e8512ae0cc3e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Biosecurity\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022a37357e959e14a66bf1ac322a1a427a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a37357e959e14a66bf1ac322a1a427a5\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Biosecurity: How many passengers are estimated to have passed through the Green Lane at Auckland International Airport when a detector dog wasn\u2019t working on that lane between the hours of 2 a.m. to 5 a.m. this year, and on how many days did this happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00224cbc670f924444adba6529ade8142ac7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cbc670f924444adba6529ade8142ac7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E Seven thousand, five hundred and sixty, and 270 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fca534d168f14c0eafce4940c529fb34\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s answer, is the passenger pathway as secure as it could be in 2018 to keep biosecurity risk items out of New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022167e56d18c854ff796467e43aef2e879\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I would be dishonest to say that it was a perfect system, but I have to say that with the additional $9 million that we\u2019ve put into the biosecurity system, the additional efforts we\u2019ve made with an offshore intelligence unit, with tests and checks on passengers as they board the planes\u2014and as they get off the planes there are new X-ray facilities\u2014I think we run a far more robust system than was previously in place under the last Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022948a510856fa417c820610759f396086\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: When he established the biosecurity intelligence unit in April this year, to give a clear line of focus and accountability for biosecurity, why didn\u2019t the intelligence unit tell him that for nine months there\u2019s been no dog detector teams working at Auckland International Airport between 2 a.m. and 5 a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a83c4758b968420c975f094fb6d0a9a7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The intelligence unit works offshore. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289ee7209418a49bf9e85786d36d5144e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Come on; both sides, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b17225320c146848f9b18bd611bc0ea\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Have staff been told by the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) that they have to stop reporting fatigue or stress due to management and the roster and that if they do not stop complaining, then they can leave the programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc09c5ec33b847a58bc8e37fbdd27433\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019m going to give the member another go at making this relate. At the moment, I think we\u2019ve got dog tired but we haven\u2019t really got a relationship between the question and the supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f0299c6bbfd40889016213e4ab00231\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s answer confirming that there\u2019s been no dog detector teams working between 2 a.m. and 5 a.m. for nine months this year, is he concerned about reported comments from staff\u2014both former staff and current staff members\u2014about the toxic culture of management amongst this very small but important dog detector team?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229261a20742d84693907f5e9a7a778f01\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m aware of claims that have been made. I received an email that has been passed on to the Director-General. I expect him to investigate those, and if any such culture exists, to get rid of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bc361cf792e431dbda096f1424d8dcf\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister said in question time last week that he\u2019s very grateful that he\u2019s not rung up and woken at 2 a.m. to be told there\u2019s no dog working on the green lane at Auckland International Airport, would he still be grateful for his sleep if there was a major biosecurity incursion at this time because of his lack of oversight?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290d43dd6fbc74165afa5f96369d2ab3b\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I hope that we have no more biosecurity incursions. The ones that came in under the previous Government, such as Mycoplasma bovis, are something that this Government is determined to prevent in every way we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002249eb9c77d5774848b5b94a1c3730b15e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u002294e65ae8f11d40c7b2e5a2095efdc8c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294e65ae8f11d40c7b2e5a2095efdc8c4\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What recent announcements has he made about the delivery of air ambulance services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e23a428fd25e437593ffc8c67e42c3d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e23a428fd25e437593ffc8c67e42c3d4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Air ambulances are a critical life-saving service. Our current air ambulance providers have done a great job, but our helicopter fleet is ageing. The Government is committed to a 10-year programme led by clinicians that will modernise our air ambulance fleet, increase crew numbers, and reduce call-out times. Yesterday, I was pleased to announce that an agreement in principle for services in the northern region has been reached with an agency combining the Auckland Rescue Helicopter Trust and the Northland Emergency Services Trust. Announcements about the central and southern regions will follow at a later date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a8b069a158a4794bcef96b89f265f52\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: How will the new approach to ambulance services improve outcomes for patients?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f0f631387bb4f08bfbefcfa99a4c3a2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The average age of our air ambulance fleet is 29 years, and one in three of the helicopters are still single-engine. We need to modernise and upgrade our helicopter fleet and move to the use of twin-engine machines nationwide to allow more space for treatment of patients during transit. Nationally, the new contracts will also mean more permanent staff on base and will ensure crew and clinical staff are closer at hand to reduce call-out time. This is about putting the needs of patients first and reflects the Government\u2019s commitment to improving the well-being of Kiwi families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2c08b0403b1488d9355c61e4089621a\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: Will the new approach to air ambulance services require further investment from the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0687102b9eb4bf081ae714db9a8c298\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Improving our nationwide air ambulance service will require sustained investment. That is why in Budget 2018 we invested an extra $83 million into air ambulance services over the next four years so that the dedicated medics and pilots have the tools they need to do their job. This Government is committed to investing in the health system and dealing with the legacy of underfunding that we inherited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5eab4574a9342eea1c18d348072a4dc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Research, Science and Innovation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1fcb1c674934b9abb9c48c9c5b749d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1fcb1c674934b9abb9c48c9c5b749d2\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Research, Science and Innovation: Does she stand by her statement on her proposed R \u0026amp; D tax credit policy that \u201CIf no final decisions have been made, anything is possible\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf7c9d79ee9b4241b49257d9430e5786\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf7c9d79ee9b4241b49257d9430e5786\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Research, Science and Innovation):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b4a0c1132f94571a333d9064e9a9e06\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: What is the potential fiscal cost of changing her R \u0026amp; D tax credit policy to include companies not making a profit, and removing the restrictions around companies spending less than $100,000 on R \u0026amp; D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c3709101f2045c4b0ab849aa0235788\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: The potential costs of the full policy were included in Budget 2018 when this Government allocated over a billion dollars over a four-year period in addition to the growth grant funding. So that is all laid out there. So the funding for the growth grant of $649 million remains in addition to the money that is set out of over a billion dollars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d184b363030d46498717e487a8ef546b\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Treasury\u2019s advice that the design features may influence the fiscal cost, and that without design details the financial implications of introducing a tax credit are unclear?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022226d3c8959c54cd095ab37b809b0ed52\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course the design details will impact on the total cost of the package. That\u2019s why that was one of the key things that we had in mind when we put together the package to take out to consultation with industry around the final design details. These were done with the view that there had to be plenty of fiscal headroom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df34932920a44130b96c1db6cc812016\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: How is it, then, a responsible move to announce $1 billion towards this policy, given the details of the policy are still not known?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8a8f0a22b2b4a5f8862ea004db60d42\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: It is responsible because this is a Government that is not content to languish at 1.3 percent of expenditure on GDP. We\u2019re in a Government that is investing in our businesses to incentivise them to do R \u0026amp; D, and we have designed a policy within the funding that we allocated in Budget 2018. I know that member struggles with the fact that this is a Government that is seriously investing in research and development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022361c2ea14ec345f8880a97adc11eb9d7\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she reject the advice from Treasury to implement the policy in 2020, not 2019, to allow for proper development of the policy, and instead pursue her approach, that will result in higher fiscal risk and higher risk of not achieving the objective?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239ce903859d4433791632acdaa489df1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: We took a very prudent approach. What we are implementing in April 2019 is the incentive for companies that are in profit. We have given ourselves an extra year to do the most risky part of the policy, which is pre-profits, and we are putting in place incentives for those companies to carry them through. We\u2019re a Government that wants to get on with helping businesses so they can invest more in R \u0026amp; D, and this is a Government that is dedicated to a sustainable, productive, inclusive economy, and we are willing to invest in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022662adca8a72c4b3f9199aca08a465cb4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Wh\u0101nau Ora\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022 data-id=\u0022026656a7d0834f199189d2cb99798af2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022026656a7d0834f199189d2cb99798af2\u0022\u003EJO HAYES (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora: Is he still supportive of the principles and values of Wh\u0101nau Ora; if so, what support does he have from his senior ministerial colleagues for the Wh\u0101nau Ora policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6feceec630e4a369ff4c48f89b22267\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6feceec630e4a369ff4c48f89b22267\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113na koe, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much. The answer to the question is yes, I continue to actively support the principles and values of Wh\u0101nau Ora, and my ministerial colleagues and I are currently considering how the aspirations of wh\u0101nau well-being can be supported even more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022238b92408e7c47a99d2d71575595ab6e\u0022\u003EJo Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: What steps will he take to ensure the principles and values of the Wh\u0101nau Ora policy is a priority in his Government\u2019s work programme, after the Prime Minister acknowledged on Saturday that she couldn\u2019t guarantee Wh\u0101nau Ora would get the extra funding that Labour promised before the 2017 election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaa3c27e52384630b8c83470bfd73bc0\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I also quote the Prime Minister, who in the same interview said, \u201CWe\u2019re undertaking [a review of Wh\u0101nau Ora] so we can demonstrate the value of Wh\u0101nau Ora.\u201D To me, that sounds like this Government certainly believes in the principles and values of the policy, and with well-being at the centre of everything this Government does, I\u2019m looking forward to the outcomes we can expect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a597352079d642e3a6e47b6256312fe1\u0022\u003EJo Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: How will Willie Jackson\u2019s comments that the Government\u2019s 2019 social well-being Budget will be \u201Cmore observant of community needs right across the spectrum, translate to more funding for Wh\u0101nau Ora\u201D when the Prime Minister is unable to guarantee any new money for Wh\u0101nau Ora?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d889d317b86849bb8df24bd668e1dc19\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: More broadly speaking, I am proud of this Government and the words of the Minister of Finance, the Hon Grant Robertson, in the prospect of delivering a well-being Budget, a first in this world\u2014a well-being Budget\u2014aimed directly at the well-being of our communities and our country. I am under no illusion that the words of my colleague the Hon Willie Jackson are in line of delivering well-being for our communities and country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5d9f17a4d76456a9be05b6bdc26347b\u0022\u003EJo Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the statement from the Acting Prime Minister and leader of New Zealand First, \u201CWh\u0101nau Ora is just a giant koha fund set up in a separatist system to appease the M\u0101ori Party.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222046222bd7664002b2a150083a013b8c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I just want to make sure that that statement was made by the Acting Prime Minister or at least by the Rt Hon Winston Peters when he was a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d38e434cb789491b9c5238f11633e947\u0022\u003EJo Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it was. It was in the same article on 22 September this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c7874e24c5f40b39ecc656f5cb22c48\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So, he\u2019s made that comment recently? All right. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a63ee84d502249b5a3d978893511d2ac\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The election last year was on 23 September. The Government began on 26 October. That member cannot possibly be right when she made that statement to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022465e1715f5b64394babc2dd18aa7258b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I just want to check: is the member talking about this year or last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221974213fbefa4f68b3f8ce26a1334c6c\u0022\u003EJo Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: This year: 22 September 2018. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d72ca7f5842c4c1baed7ad276354ff38\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So the member\u2019s saying that the Deputy Prime Minister made that comment on 22 September this year? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287494e1014c64633ba7a5b7ae986c982\u0022\u003EJo Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228864fbd9eece421f918d4aa4749ede4e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All right. OK. [Interruption] Well, no, we\u2019ve got to take the member\u2019s\u2014[Interruption]. No, we do have to take the member\u2019s word. She has been asked and she has said that that statement was reported as being made by the Prime Minister, by the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b1e856b9dcf469f8d9d52d78b107f57\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s going to have to prove\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f58bc6f6a934e60a2de48cf5a737477\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No she doesn\u2019t. Order! At the moment, she does not. She said she has the authentication for it. She has been asked twice about it. She has an absolute responsibility to be correct, because it is a matter of privilege\u2014clearly, a matter of privilege. We must take her word at this stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aac42355029147edaa515c738dcd85c0\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that member is wrong, but what I do want to say is I\u2019m proud of the Rt Hon Winston Peters, because in the work that we\u2019ve been doing on Wh\u0101nau Ora and the discussions I\u2019ve had with him, he\u2019s been very supportive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f65cbe3cbf704688be63cbdd8165256e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Pacific Peoples\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u0022646fb159ad784f0ea5e3f6c311397d15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022646fb159ad784f0ea5e3f6c311397d15\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A-SUISUIKI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E How is the Government\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202794718b41947c9bcca5efdabfe1dd6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Who was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223423d8a8a2074117a2a79b383233e57d\u0022\u003EHon Kris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270d462e0e3d34ec9aee97adc083c9b97\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the member has just been responsible for some additional questions, the number of which I\u2019ll decide, going to the Opposition. Please start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u00228771407950224c9e97f115edf55c3208\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228771407950224c9e97f115edf55c3208\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A-SUISUIKI (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Pacific Peoples: How is the Government promoting an understanding of Pacific languages, arts, and cultures overseas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022029a301a51ac4b7e8ae3fca2f8e6bd13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022029a301a51ac4b7e8ae3fca2f8e6bd13\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO (Minister for Pacific Peoples):\u003C/span\u003E In April, the right honourable Minister Peters announced New Zealand\u2019s partnership with the Royal Academy of Arts in London to exhibit Oceania, the largest collection of traditional contemporary M\u0101ori, Polynesian, and Melanesian art ever displayed in the United Kingdom, with artworks spanning over 500 years. Tonga and Papua New Guinea are cultural co-sponsors of the exhibition. Minister Sepuloni opened the exhibition on behalf of the New Zealand Government on Tuesday. This is an exciting development, a unique opportunity, and a proud moment for M\u0101ori and Pacific peoples in New Zealand to see a small part of ourselves, with our representatives being profiled on the world stage with a sophisticated narrative of Pacific peoples who value their languages, arts, and cultures. Oceania artworks and artists are some of our greatest ambassadors and champions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022112db5af12734ad38db641f2a05fe0cd\u0022\u003EAnahila Kanongata\u2019a-Suisuiki\u003C/span\u003E: How will the exhibition improve international understanding of the issues affecting New Zealand and our Pacific neighbours?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231a6f2e588c7481ca849143403a2131f\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: Oceania will focus UK and international attention to our Pacific region and its peoples. Oceania will highlight, through visual and digital arts, some of the global issues that Pacific nations are facing, such as climate change, migration, and regional and environmental security. Oceania is an opportunity for New Zealand and Pacific leaders to build dialogue with UK stakeholders and encourage them to take a greater multilateral role in collectively solving these issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022158738d3f5064caeb613d38e905bc277\u0022\u003EAnahila Kanongata\u2019a-Suisuiki\u003C/span\u003E: How has the Government ensured that ex-pats are able to see the exhibition? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fe5d043b973435a8b1206caa7539328\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: This is exciting: this exhibition is an important part of our story and our history, and New Zealanders living in the UK will learn a lot more from seeing Oceania. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve made the entry to the exhibition free for all New Zealand passport holders and all Pacific Island passport holders. People just need to show their passport at the entry to the exhibition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b86f072663e246118b1dabd26ca379aa\u0022\u003EAnahila Kanongata\u2019a-Suisuiki\u003C/span\u003E: What is the value to New Zealand and its Pacific population of promoting Pacific languages, arts, and cultures overseas? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa6dcac9eba9412782fdf2e17256c3c4\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: Exhibitions of this nature are vital in keeping Pacific and M\u0101ori languages, cultures, and arts alive for future generations. Language gives voice to our arts and cultures. We believe that when the language dies, a culture dies. When a culture dies, our stories and arts will die. When our stories and arts die, connections to our lands and environment will die. When our connections to the environment die, identities die. When our identities die, we will truly be a lost people. Exhibitions such as Oceania help to build greater understanding, appreciation, and the collective will to uphold and protect the dignity of M\u0101ori and Pacific peoples\u2019 right to speak their heritage languages and pass it on to the next generation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e21a4a26007405cb2722c8a598fc3d1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00228c18f53ae6b749cda6b30d2a183df823\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c18f53ae6b749cda6b30d2a183df823\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his appointment of Wally Haumaha as Deputy Commissioner of Police, and does Mr Haumaha still enjoy his confidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002228bd7672b0e54cf8b39d9393a872ac18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228bd7672b0e54cf8b39d9393a872ac18\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E An inquiry into the appointment process is now under way, and I have confidence in Mary Scholtens QC\u2019s ability to run a fair process. It would not be appropriate for me to comment during that inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8487c892f5743be801fab0c9cf4613c\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Why was Wally Haumaha appointed as deputy commissioner when he was asked in the interview process by the State Services Commission words to the effect of \u201CIs there anything in your past that would embarrass the Government?\u201D, to which he answered, \u201CNo.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275fe3d85021c4a8f8aea3f6ef73dd914\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: With respect to those matters that may relate to the inquiry, I can\u2019t comment, other than to say there\u2019s one aspect that I can comment on, and that is this: Mr Haumaha received two significant promotions under the National Party, and an honours. I suppose, at that point in time, some of us thought, well, the due diligence had been done and we could have confidence in the National Party\u2019s judgment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208bdca9c5f444bd2b87a190db2487973\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Why was Wally Haumaha appointed when he was not the preferred candidate of the State Services Commission interview panel that interviewed him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ecc052e9b73418cbfa5c0ffb5f2c1b7\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, a very distinguished woman with qualifications, of course, Mary Scholtens QC, will determine the process and give us a report on that, and at that point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a94eec7af7e44f638a73d541989d3b0d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Because he\u2019s a mate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ab2b12fea0c41048c986ff1ed345734\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, Mary Scholtens is not a mate of mine. She\u2019s married to a former National Party Minister. Didn\u2019t know that, did he\u2014didn\u2019t know that, did he? So we\u2019ll await her wise opinion when we get the report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224b20036c6ef4b928037d10db1b020aa\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the Scholtens inquiry, why did the Government scale back the Government inquiry into his appointment from a short and sharp inquiry that would only take six weeks, when officials originally recommended an inquiry of three months, at a cost of $840,000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260d5be37d90348839e0ff4ad9e7ba1ef\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I think the answer to that is so obvious. We are a very frugal Government. We\u2019re famous for looking after the taxpayer\u2019s money the same way we look after our own\u2014very Scottish, in that fact. I just want to say $800,000 was far too much, and so we\u2019ve reached a much more reasonable accommodation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e1e154ec05746808ce1b5cd5e409872\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Has he asked the Rt Hon Winston Peters why he told Parliament he was invited to the celebration of Mr Haumaha\u2019s promotion to assistant commissioner of police by the police and the Government of the day, when the evidence shows he was invited by the marae which Mr Haumaha is the chairman of?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c3bc966a2f946f7955ff00fb72c290e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: At this point in time, there\u2019s no such evidence on the last claim that Minister made, just like there was none yesterday. Now, let me just say this here: at the marae were all the police heads at the time, and a number of political parties. I just happened to be one of them. I got there\u2014because I was a very busy man\u2014well after the event started, and was seated at the direction of the police. That\u2019s why I had the assumption that they were involved in its organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a68d816e00744c00a376438de4fcd38f\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to that final answer, was he invited to the marae, to Wally Haumaha\u2019s celebration, by the marae?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3e0d332c9c545cc83f7f3921600b895\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: In that context, I think the answer\u2019s almost compellingly no, but, as some members will know here, in M\u0101oridom we\u2019re very much a wanted guest sometimes\u2014not always, because of the effect of what our message might be, but, nevertheless, because it\u2019s important that they hear all sorts of views. That was the reason, I assume, I was invited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aae0e72370b446be83ddc8b9169ee2a6\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: So if he wasn\u2019t invited by the Government of the day, he wasn\u2019t invited by the police, and, as he just said, he wasn\u2019t invited by the marae, who invited him to the celebration of Wally Haumaha\u2019s promotion to assistant commissioner?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f366a253428e4fe78fbee71389e7fca5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The first thing that member\u2019s going to have to do is get some cultural understanding. A marae can be a building, a marae can be a complex, or a marae can be all the people and the complex, all put together. So in that context, it\u2019s very difficult to know\u2014I know the building didn\u2019t invite me, but as to who on the marae had the foresight and wisdom to invite me, I don\u2019t quite know. That said, that member yesterday promised a revelation. When are we going to hear it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c823c161d1e48d59c30c7bf4137e19b\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What is the difference between Meka Whaitiri, who was stood down as a Minister once an investigation commenced into alleged inappropriate behaviour towards a staff member, and Wally Haumaha, whose alleged bullying behaviour towards civil servants is now the subject of two\u2014and possibly, soon, three\u2014inquiries, and why will he not stand Mr Haumaha aside?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e59e5b7d25e462483c0b42a9899e5cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to make a minor amendment to the question and make it \u201Cpublic servant\u201D, so we have a New Zealand not a UK context, and ask the Acting Prime Minister to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224603d7c131cc41339976ee48c8ce71d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say, the member actually gave the answer in his question\u2014he said, \u201Calleged\u201D. In this country, people are presumed innocent. We have an inquiry going on now into the process that appointed Mr Haumaha, a twice-promoted police member under the National Party and an honours recipient under the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228329bd1056a549c58a259c94f5fed0f7\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he stand Meka Whaitiri aside as a Minister when the allegations against her were only alleged, and how does that differ from Mr Haumaha?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bb14ba3515d4a1194850824151288d5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to get the member to try again, at the beginning of the question: \u201CWhy did the Prime Minister\u201D, not \u201CWhy did he\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238992d51fee247649be52d99b8086a71\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Prime Minister stand Meka Whaitiri aside as a Minister when the allegations against her were only allegations, and how does that differ from the allegations against Mr Haumaha?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261aecc2585a74604ba7d731b6e1ed3c1\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister, in the Meka Whaitiri case, had the benefit of a report. In the case of Mr Haumaha, the inquiry is still being done, and so, as the member said yesterday, I can also reveal that we will wait till the report\u2019s out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022 data-id=\u00225f8a9970edbf4dea8a4bd3a5eb8c341c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f8a9970edbf4dea8a4bd3a5eb8c341c\u0022\u003EJO HAYES (National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to make a personal explanation to correct a statement I made in the House. Mr Speaker, when you asked for my assurance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022add567e993e14f68a02c9fd53640facf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Is the member going to seek leave to make a correction, presumably relating to something she said relatively recently?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc33af01386946b0b1482b58cfd1cc86\u0022\u003EJO HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a5ae7abad0146baa197db44f22a394d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that. There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227ce737cd23c45b58f1c08cc87af87b1\u0022\u003EJO HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: When you asked for my assurance that the statement made by the Rt Hon Winston Peters was in his capacity as Minister, I said it was, as it was an article dated 22 December this year. I was mistaken; the statement was in fact made in February 2012. I apologise to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4141aba91054b03a80e438334033ef1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Youth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022b69752f64aad49f4af8a270de4388f85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b69752f64aad49f4af8a270de4388f85\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Youth: What recent announcement has he made on the Youth Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002254f2799b2a8c41288a6036ce668388a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254f2799b2a8c41288a6036ce668388a9\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister for Youth):\u003C/span\u003E I can answer that question tickety-boo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dd42b21aeef44b2b2f438ed6aa5376f\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re not young.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a185157486d4dd88e237c46ad6f19ed\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday, I announced the nationwide selection process\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263aeaffab9214c0da9d8d37d0dee8b13\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member will resume his seat. I\u2019m going to ask Paul Goldsmith just to stop stating the obvious. I\u2019m not. Thank you. Start again please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba82ab312d2e467bbbc27413b0fd39b6\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday I announced that the nationwide selection process for Youth Parliament 2019 is under way. All MP offices would have received an information pack about the Youth Parliament 2019 programme and the selection process. I\u2019m enjoying seeing how members are using social media to promote this fantastic opportunity\u2014in fact, in the words of my good colleague, \u201Ckeeping it lit.\u201D There is wonderful momentum from all sides of the House to ensure we work together to bring youth voices into this Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227133860663824257af252905b9ef3e2b\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: How will Youth Parliament be different this time round?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e0e476217974fbe9a601768e1444c9e\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Great question. Rangatahi who will participate in the Youth Parliament 2019 programmes stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before them. We have listened to the voices of previous youth parliamentarians\u2014namely, the Hon Kris Faafoi. They suggest that the programme include significant changes. The changes include the programme being from 1 March to 31 August, allowing for young people to work alongside their MPs and communities and take their views to the two-day event in July 2019. After the two-day event, these young people will return to their communities to share their insights and learnings. For the first time in the history of Youth Parliament, Youth MPs will be submitting and deciding on topics to be discussed at the two-day event. All rangatahi from across Aotearoa will be able to submit their thoughts on the 10 chosen Youth Parliament select committee topics through a public submission process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d1113a6e51c43b6852cf8bd063c1af9\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: What are the governing arrangements for Youth Parliament 2019?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244fcc7a88eaa4c36bb461de7b510a119\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Youth Parliament is governed by a multi-party steering committee of members, as well as a representative from the press gallery. I would like to acknowledge the following members, who have been championing more opportunities for young people to have a voice. Can I also acknowledge you, Mr Speaker, for your acceptance of Youth Parliament 2019.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b78c882d2d94e539d5b3860a3da4445\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before we go on to question No. 12 from Jenny Marcroft, I want to make it clear that despite what has been a written appeal to me from people on behalf of Mr Faafoi, I\u2019m not going to take the questions back that I have awarded the National Party because of his interjection. Even though there may have been some justification for it at the time, he\u2019s got to learn to do things in an appropriate manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c486bc6e57f4566a6ffcdb16a02a052\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Forestry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u002256d79ee047d1459aa25115bf7c380f0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256d79ee047d1459aa25115bf7c380f0d\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Forestry: What insights can he offer about his recent trip to China and Japan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbdc123a8a3b4811acbd0132ca7a741e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbdc123a8a3b4811acbd0132ca7a741e\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E The insights I can offer about the recent trip are based on intuition and judgment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ec827db4a9d43e39595515ff095f74f\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Table the snaps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248e567f13d684f499ae56f37d4439366\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014during that period. Yes, don\u2019t worry, pork belly was there, Gerry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b76936f25d9425982597d0e405f2c6f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That\u2019s enough. Right, the member will resume his seat. We\u2019re not going to proceed with this question now because the member has\u2014it\u2019s the second member in two days to make personal reflections on the shadow Leader of the House, and I\u2019m, frankly, at a loss as to how to otherwise improve the behaviour. I am now ruling that question time is concluded because I cannot think of a better way of indicating my concern to Mr Jones and other members of the Government about their inappropriate personal comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d00c3888d0fb4742815e34970f49dcba\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Brownlee said, \u201CTable the snacks.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b11066cab274f918a769d1210185c91\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, \u201Csnaps\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224630653463864413a2598757121c5b28\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: That was his intervention\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bf568040e5e4bccb3a94587e570c0a5\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no\u2014clean out the ears.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022377e23793890437ab46d466c0c52899f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s back into it again. This is a point of order and it should be heard in silence. Now, Mr Speaker\u2014that\u2019s a fact. That\u2019s what we heard over here: \u201CTable the snacks.\u201D And now my colleague responded with an answer that pork belly was there. I mean, to be reasonable, if he had not intervened and shouted out that silly statement, then we would have got on and answered the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241836a959d2048f0a93e307b5220beea\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: The word was \u201Csnaps\u201D as in \u201Choliday snaps\u201D. I realise that most people don\u2019t use those now because they\u2019ve got cellphones, but I do have another point of order, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac96d0676066490d8047ce029a389b1e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, we have dealt with that one. That\u2019s what I thought the member said, so we\u2019ll just keep going. Further point of order, the Hon Gerry Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d2f2e041ddd4c7d9f123e69741842d1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228bc0e2b136d7408cbc18e47b5fc6f161\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bc0e2b136d7408cbc18e47b5fc6f161\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In question No. 1 today, you ruled that the Hon Paula Bennett could not table a document, on the basis that it had previously been published. But I would just ask you to consider what you\u2019ve ruled today in relation to Speaker\u2019s rulings 149/1, which talk about documents of a historic nature and not readily available, and Speaker\u2019s ruling 149/2, that says that documents that are published by the media can be tabled if there has been a passage of time, effectively, and they come from a credible organisation. Now, the Parliamentary Library, I\u2019m sure you would agree, as far as this House is concerned, is a credible organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EFurther, Speaker\u2019s ruling 150/2 says that a document published by media is much the same as 149/2 in exceptional circumstances. In this case, the statement that was tabled by the Hon Paula Bennett was 18 years old. Now, that creates the sorts of exceptional circumstances that I\u2019m sure are anticipated in that. While that moment has passed, I would ask you just to reflect on whether your ruling today supersedes those other rulings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9bf00bcb330498aa092c26aa2336d4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9bf00bcb330498aa092c26aa2336d4d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I haven\u2019t looked carefully at 149/1, but I have looked at 149/2, and I\u2019m not sure that the member\u2019s argument actually works for that one. I will look carefully at it. I\u2019m not at the point yet of where I\u2019m going to take the current Speakers\u2019 rulings out of the book by superseding them, but I will sit down and have a wee look at the question and at the context. I thank the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022257fcbbdda8e4acc9e52fb08d5d2e784\u0022\u003EElectoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022914af426b49044beb1e09c75c99d217c\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002291eb67ff0e9247abb76d4ab3df0700d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291eb67ff0e9247abb76d4ab3df0700d0\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill has been well scrutinised and canvassed, both in the Justice Committee and in this House. In fact, the committee of the whole House expended more than 21 hours examining this piece of legislation, and for very good reason too. It\u2019s an amendment to our Electoral Act and where there is not consensus across the House on changes to our Electoral Act, it is important that the legislation is very closely scrutinised, and members opposite certainly did that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill is about affirming the important principle under our current Electoral Act and in our MMP system that once the electorate has voted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d9cd71179a849fd98ab2211a27f515a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Can we just have a little quiet for the Minister, please, as people leave the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022474406642f53458786b569e0ce706075\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m obliged, Madam Deputy Speaker. Once the electorate has voted and established the proportionality of representation of Parliament, then it is not for individual members to undermine that proportional representation by political decisions or judgments that they choose to make. Public confidence is a vital underpinning in our democracy and for the benefit of this House. This bill will uphold public confidence in the integrity of New Zealand\u2019s Parliament, our MPs, and our voting system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EFor the public to have confidence in Parliament and in our electoral system, it\u2019s the voters who should determine the parties\u2019 share of seats in Parliament, and they do that with the party vote during a general election. This bill ensures that that proportionality that that share of the seats as a result of the party vote in the most general election will be the case. It will mean that the decision of an individual MP to leave the party for which they were elected does not alter that share, and that\u2019s the vital point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhat is really interesting in the debates that we\u2019ve had in this House is the energy and enthusiasm that members have brought to it, particularly members opposite, as they have properly discharged their duty as members of the Opposition looking at a piece of legislation that they disagree with and applying a very close examination of it. They did that. But it\u2019s unfortunate\u2014and I choose to do this at this part of the debate on this bill\u2014that sometimes it is possible for members to go completely overboard in the way they approach the matter. It\u2019s unfortunate that the Hon Nick Smith, in the select committee and in this House, made attacks on officials\u2014on public servants of this country\u2014that were totally unacceptable and totally uncalled for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt is very important that when officials discharge their duties as officials, as public servants, they are not subject to the kind of tawdry behaviour that we, as elected officials, might have to tolerate, and sometimes welcome, because we are able to answer for ourselves. We stand in this House with a voice and are able to respond. We sit in the select committee, able to respond to the personal cut and thrust that goes with it, but officials are not. It is a very poor reflection on members who think that it is OK to attack officials, who cannot respond for themselves, and it is a very sad day that that should happen in relation to this bill\u2014even worse when they are unapologetic in doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill sets out a process by which, if a member disrupts proportionality by leaving their party\u2014not by disagreeing with their colleagues and not by crossing the floor, but by leaving their party and joining another party\u2014then they can be removed from Parliament. The MP\u2019s party leader, with the support of their caucus, or the MP who\u2019s leaving their party themselves can choose whether to activate the power in this bill by notifying the Speaker in writing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere are safeguards in this. There has to be a notice in writing. The leader of the party, in giving a notice to the Speaker about this apparent change in proportionality, has to have a reasonable belief that the proportionality of Parliament would be distorted. There is a 21-day period\u2014call it a cooling-down period, call it a chance to negotiate or to talk, or call it a chance to rally the numbers for that particular member or, indeed, for the leader who has to give the notice\u2014and then there is the requirement for there to be a two-thirds vote in the caucus for the removal action to be taken. All safeguards, and all within a context in which political judgments have to be made, so that people know and expect that in Parliament there will be disagreements and arguments and that not every disagreement and argument leads to a spill or a conflagration that leads to a disruption in parliamentary numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESome submitters were concerned that this bill would allow a party leader to dismiss a member of the party for any reason. That simply is not correct. The bill contains a number of safeguards to ensure that the process cannot be misused, and I\u2019ve been through those. It is about making sure that the proportionality of the share of parliamentary numbers does not get distorted. Those safeguards mean that the power will only be used with the broad agreement of the particular MP who is the subject of any resolution of their party, and there will be appropriate time to respond. Moreover, if an MP wishes to contest the use of the procedure in the bill, they can seek recourse from the courts, as, indeed, a former MP in this House has done under virtually identical legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that the bill raises the issue of parliamentary privilege, and that was debated in the House. Parliamentary privilege will limit the matters that can be introduced in evidence in proceedings, challenging the delivery of a notice to the Speaker. But the Supreme Court has dealt with this and has said issues under identical legislation are justiciable and matters can be brought for the scrutiny of the court, as, indeed, happened in the Pebble v Awatere Huata case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESome are concerned that the bill will constrain MPs\u2019 freedom of speech or freedom of conscience. This bill recognises that a balance has to be drawn between the freedom of individual MPs to act on their own judgment, which is important, and the principle that voters and only voters\u2014not individual members of this House, but voters\u2014should determine the parties represented in this House. The bill draws a better balance by providing a means to correct distortions of proportionality where an MP leaves the party under whose banner they stood for Parliament. That sheets home the importance of MMP and what MMP is about, which is the party share of seats in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EA key feature of the change in an MMP electoral system was that voters\u2019 views are represented fairly. That\u2019s what the House now is about. The proportions of Parliament are a vital manifestation of that improved representation. The bill aims to protect that improved representation. The reality is that having no process which can be used to remove an MP from Parliament when they clearly are undermining parliamentary proportionality risks bringing this Parliament into disrepute, and that would have a negative impact on our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESome critics have said that the bill isn\u2019t necessary\u2014that there are sufficient political safeguards in our system already to discourage and sanction MPs who depart from their parties. In fact, we have seen that the opposite is true. Dialogue within parties\u2014robust dialogue\u2014happens, and there should be incentives that mean that what remains is that the primary means of maintaining party cohesion is the whip and the caucus themselves. But this bill addresses those instances when these may not be effective, as we have seen in the past\u2014for example, where an MP has, effectively, removed themselves from their party and their internal systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill doesn\u2019t remove the role of dissent and robust debate within parties and across this Parliament, because that is vital for good development of public policy. Debate will continue to occur within party caucuses and between the different parties and debates in this House. Similar legislation to this bill has been in place in New Zealand in the past, and rigorous debate on policy and legislation was not impeded either across the House or within parties, apart from the time when I think Dr Nick Smith was involved with a number of MPs in trying to remove Maurice Williamson, who simply made a public statement that it was time for the National Party to define who it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9ac212264e24c35b68b177ef34ed3eb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Never from Parliament, and that\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022150e6306779a4c95961fefdac4cb92c4\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The Attorney-General has considered MPs\u2019 freedom of expression rights when assessing the bill for consistency with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, and he considered that preserving the balance of representation in accordance with the wishes of the electorate is sufficiently strong democratic purpose to justify the very small limitation that this bill might otherwise represent on freedom of expression.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill has been criticised for restricting the ability of new parties to form within a current Parliament. It\u2019s our view that parties wanting to enter Parliament should do so through the electoral process and have an electoral mandate, thereby establishing their legitimacy. Voters, and only voters, should determine which parties are represented in Parliament. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022287293872aec4eee82a8571e48af6821\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022287293872aec4eee82a8571e48af6821\u0022\u003EHon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Acting Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I didn\u2019t want to interrupt the Minister in his contribution, but you have previously called members to order for saying the phrase \u201CThat\u2019s not true.\u201D or for suggesting that a member is misleading the House. Dr Nick Smith\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fa368344f34470b97a89067e4d7d9d9\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me, but points of order should be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022744d6ab3335b454084bf2b8c826387b1\u0022\u003EHon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Nick Smith audibly made that statement during the Minister\u2019s speech, and I request that you call him to order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e04a27017a85491a857bb297b4122348\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e04a27017a85491a857bb297b4122348\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I did take note of that\u2014[Interruption] I don\u2019t need any help at the moment, thank you, Dr Nick Smith. In fact, I didn\u2019t call the member to order because the Minister on his feet had made a direct statement about another member as an individual, and that individual responded by saying that that was incorrect statement. In fact, he said it wasn\u2019t true. So I left it, quite deliberately, because it was an argument between two members, rather than when \u201CThat\u2019s not true.\u201D is normally used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec741a3692144c6c829765b07351da5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec741a3692144c6c829765b07351da5c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bca4cd1edbed4704bfe29327856e2fe8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hope you\u2019re not going to dispute\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c50b783cd692498593920600568b611e\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Of course I\u2019m not. The Standing Orders make very plain that a member cannot dispute a personal explanation. The issue which Mr Little commented on was in direct contradiction to a personal explanation that I\u2019ve previously given to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022acc95d5d143345c58a1805438bd33e69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acc95d5d143345c58a1805438bd33e69\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I do understand that. I\u2019m sorry, that had slipped my mind. So that\u2019s a further reason why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002222274b3630c64cf4adfbced5a295545c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222274b3630c64cf4adfbced5a295545c\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Look, with all due respect to the member who\u2019s now resumed his seat, that is simply not correct. There was a personal explanation that that member, Dr Nick Smith, did not lead a challenge, effectively, to Mr Williamson. I did not say he led a challenge; I said that he was involved with a challenge, and that has never been disputed when that has been asserted in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcbdb6e8b2f64bdfbfdca1259d8b1f67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcbdb6e8b2f64bdfbfdca1259d8b1f67\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we would have to go back to the personal statement. I have to accept a member at their word, and the Hon Dr Nick Smith says that he has disputed it. Regardless, saying that something isn\u2019t true doesn\u2019t mean that someone is lying. You\u2019re not allowed to say that, and people are called to order. I go back to my original statement, which was that it was a direct accusation which was refuted by the member, and I think we would be better to leave it at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002220cef181af904d15bf4c4e63edf1d0a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220cef181af904d15bf4c4e63edf1d0a8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s with genuine sadness that I make this speech in the final debate on this Draconian bill that is being forced through our Parliament by the Labour Party, New Zealand First, and the Green Party this afternoon. It is an affront to New Zealand\u2019s core values of freedom of speech, of respect for democracy, and of tolerance of dissent. We have one of the oldest and most progressive Parliaments anywhere in the world, so well symbolised last week by the celebration of women\u2019s suffrage. This bill takes us backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere is nothing very complicated about this bill: it gives a new power in our Electoral Act for a party leader to sack an MP. The Government has dressed this up in all sorts of nebulous language. They argue that an MP is not sacked; the wording in the bill is that a member\u2019s seat \u201Cbecomes vacant\u201D. They say a leader can use their power only when an MP has distorted the proportionality of Parliament, but this is defined so vaguely that leaders have huge discretion as to when they trigger the process to get rid of an MP. They argue there is a strong check on a leader\u2019s power by requiring a two-thirds vote of a party\u2019s MPs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAnyone who understands the reality of caucus culture knows it will be very rare for a leader not to get their own way\u2014think Rob Muldoon towards Marilyn Waring, think David Lange and Jim Anderton, think Helen Clark and Tariana Turia, and think Winston Peters and Brendan Horan. This bill is a blunt tool to nail dissenters. We may not agree with their differing points of view, and sometimes they make our Parliament a little bit messy, but respecting dissenting views is crucial to a democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe biggest loss with this bill is the change that it will make in the culture of our Parliament. It will make MPs more subservient and more like party robots; it will be less challenging and less individual thinkers. As the Government has acknowledged, it will have a chilling effect on MPs\u2019 free speech. Further, it will concentrate political power with leaders and with parties. I am yet to meet a member of the public out there who has said \u201CI just wish party leaders like Winston Peters had more powers.\u201D, but that\u2019s what this bill does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe Government argues that this bill is about protecting the proportionality of Parliament. This does not stack up when there is no attempt to change any of the five provisions in the Electoral Act that also distort proportionality. It is also incorrect to assume that the voters of a party agree with their leader rather than with the dissenting MP, when history tells us, with examples like Jim Anderton and Tariana Turia, that often those MPs are more representative of the views within that party than, necessarily, the leaders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ETo truly appreciate how obnoxious this bill is, it needs to be considered in a historical and international context. This bill breaches the 330-year-old Bill of Rights. Those rights protect the exclusive right of voters to appoint and dismiss MPs, and it protects free speech in this Parliament and the rights of freedom of association. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAn international comparison just further highlights how out of step this bill is with international norms for democracy. The Inter-Parliamentary Union is scathing of provisions of this sort. If a law was proposed in the United States that gave President Trump, the leader of the Republican Party, the power to dismiss a Republican member of Congress, there would be outrage across the political spectrum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EA bill of this sort would be considered so out there in the Australian or in the UK or in the Canadian parliaments that it would not get off first base. In Germany, the home of MMP, their constitution specifically prohibits such a law. The European Court of Human Rights has ruled such provisions are undemocratic and are not allowed. Even in PNG and Malaysia, such electoral laws have been struck down by their constitutional courts. It is true that some countries like India and Japan have a more moderate provision that says that if an MP voluntarily resigns from their party, they must leave Parliament, but the only countries that go as far as this bill in enabling a party leader to sack an MP are authoritarian States like Zimbabwe and Pakistan, that have nothing to offer in terms of New Zealand\u2019s democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI also want to highlight the long list of respected New Zealand institutions that oppose this bill. We\u2019ve had a chorus of condemnation from every one of New Zealand\u2019s universities. Every major newspaper in New Zealand has condemned this bill with their editorials. The Law Society, the Human Rights Commission, and even the Clerk of this House\u2014the first in 30 years\u2014has condemned this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe three political parties supporting this bill and their members of Parliament deserve to be condemned for their part in this erosion of our democratic values. Justice Minister Andrew Little dismisses the chorus of 23 constitutional experts that are critical of this bill with the response \u201CI\u2019m right. They\u2019re all wrong.\u201D, exposing the level of arrogance in this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EGreen Party co-leader Marama Davidson\u2019s interview on Radio New Zealand stating that this bill was undemocratic and stating that it was a threat to democracy but stating that the Green Party would be voting for it was like those that want to destroy the village to save the village. Even worse was fellow Green Party co-leader, James Shaw, crying foul over the quotations from former Green Party co-leader Rod Donald, who described an identical bill as the most Draconian, the most anti-democratic, the most obnoxious piece of legislation ever to appear before this Parliament. These Green MPs travel the world lecturing others on human rights. This bill they are voting for breaches the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe Greens did not take a single call in over 20 hours of committee debate. They voted down every one of National\u2019s amendments that would have tempered this bill, without explanation. These included amendments that put in a sunset clause, a review clause, a judicial review on leaders\u2019 powers to dismiss MPs, and a responsibility on political parties to have democratic rules before expelling a member of Parliament. I contrast the way in which this New Zealand First project continues just as Winston Peters demands it, whereas the Greens\u2019 policy of banning oil and gas is being watered down by the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe members I am most critical of on this bill are those backbenchers in the three governing parties. They have a duty, actually, to stand up as members of Parliament, and they have let that down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EPerhaps the most extraordinary part of this bill is the way in which, despite this bill now being in its third reading and despite over 20 hours of debate, Winston Peters, its architect, has not taken a single call. It is like the master puppeteer making fools of us and a joke of this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EMy final point on this bill is a constitutional one. The general consensus is that we make electoral law changes only with more and broad parliamentary support. Here we have the situation of a party with only 7 percent support leveraging across the negotiations to form a Government to make permanent changes in electoral law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI have fought this bill at every stage, with every tool, and with every bone in my body. I hate it. I hate it for the crude power grab that it represents. I hate it for the way that it will mute MPs\u2019 free speech. I hate it for the way that it will tarnish this country\u2019s democratic reputation. I hate it for the awful precedent that it sets in terms of the future of electoral law. I hate the way it trashes the freedoms that were so hard fought for by our predecessors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis law may pass today, but it is on notice. National\u2019s campaign for the repeal starts tomorrow. We will ensure this ugly law is only a temporary stain on the democratic traditions of this beautiful country we share. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1ff2dbe219f415aa052ff17bf364e07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1ff2dbe219f415aa052ff17bf364e07\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283b1a6df84d748b9843710d63c0cd9ac\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Madam\u2014it\u2019s Madam, and I call the Rt Hon Winston Peters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227de02f816ac8434ca5337b17aba6b9d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you. There can be few past occasions when this Parliament has been treated to such cant and pious bull dust, particularly from that member there\u2014Nick Smith\u2014who stood in this House and told Parliament that he had made a disclosure to the person responsible for MPs\u2019 pecuniary interests. That statement, of course, was not true, and he still has not shown Parliament the evidence for the statement he made about that. His record is to have been a deputy leader of the National Party for\u2014guess how long? He was a deputy leader of the National Party for two weeks. But here\u2019s my evidence. Go and ask Maurice Williamson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278a9ee6b3295474ab62b30f4b3973286\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Another personal attack.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c88b4708827e459e906c78545d49776a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That member can shout at the top of his voice, but I\u2019ll make a difference between me and that member there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225081c0f4e749499aa7473db3acfd2cc4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Sit down. Now, I think we should all calm down, and I\u2019d ask the member who has the floor to please address the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab6424c6de834736a468f8a16c3952bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: This is a third reading, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it\u2019s about what went on before. I know what a third reading\u2019s about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aba8f67195cd44419d0f5b8588c5f2e4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I\u2019m sorry, but you do not argue with the Chair. I have asked you to address the bill\u2014would you come to the bill. It is a third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3e3f48d9a784ca5a3090c03eb5b769a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It is a third reading, and it\u2019s about the matters that were dealt with before, and I\u2019m getting to the principle that\u2019s at stake here, which is this: if a member of Parliament disagrees with his or her caucus, then they should resign and put it on the line in a by-election. And guess who did that? I did. So I\u2019m not asking somebody to do something different. No, I\u2019m the one person in all those years that did it, and then went on to the next election with a full mandate. What this man suggests we do is that people carry on regardless of what the voters said, and regard themselves as the person in which the trust of the whole electorate is reposed, even though they\u2019re not on the same ticket. And he gets up here, drooping and dripping with so-called sincerity about how he\u2019s so ashamed. Ask Maurice Williamson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254a1431f483b42e4b425c36287095d3e\u0022\u003EHon Maggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: As opposed to slobbering and shouting, like that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe6392b69016421c9f0a59621b850562\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Now, \u201CMyrtle Rust\u201D can make all the noise she likes. Oh, Mr Williamson knows, as I know, that the person who was the baggage man leading the charge to get Maurice expelled was\u2014guess who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ebc89cf697e47dea6e57fd93318fda9\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222db9ee1822af4c15bae94c2f3b820543\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that man of integrity called Nick Smith. I know this man\u2019s form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270a40e2bebe84caba980f95b0e32722a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Standing Orders are very clear\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c64cbe6b0894743afadd1f78b18e218\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: They are clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e664b70ee6344e00ac6da1eaa5ecb76e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and that is, when a member has given a personal explanation, which I gave when the Prime Minister previously made this false accusation, and it should stand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a36cd382f9084bea909a10d03f7d6ce1\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and it does stand. The member knows, and he\u2019s been here long enough, that a personal explanation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022172ef46535b340d29b666611cbb529b6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Why don\u2019t I get Maurice Williamson to be my witness, then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e1537b990d44714bbe350016370d339\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Are you asking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232712e8b95be4fa2bc3b04214a7bb413\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Deputy Speaker, why don\u2019t I get Maurice Williamson to be my witness?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228358979e396f481aaf70d2f41fa6928c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, I have to ask the member who has the floor to speak, to focus on the bill, and he knows full well that the Standing Orders prevent him from raising an issue that has had a personal explanation. So will the member just resume his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eab787226014eb396c66a6446d98896\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: What Mr Smith is arguing for is that a candidate stand on a list that is supported by the political party and that candidate\u2019s colleagues, get to Parliament and please themselves what they do, and all of a sudden have the whole trust of the electorate in an MMP environment reposed in that recalcitrant member. Everybody knows that, under this bill, it\u2019s about MMP, and if the public vote a party 20 percent of the vote, then that party is, under our law, entitled to have 20 percent of the representation in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what the law says, but not Mr Smith. He says, \u201COh, no, we can make that 15 just by the unilateral actions, unsanctioned by the electorate, of MPs.\u201D Mr Smith is so beleaguered now that going on from the first reading, the committee stage, and the second reading, and every other time in this bill, he can\u2019t even keep his mouth closed for 10 minutes because he\u2019s still trying to make out a failed argument. Shouting won\u2019t change it. Shouting won\u2019t change it. Mr Smith, the difference between Winston Peters and a man called Smith is that I have the respect of the public because I resigned. I resigned and had a by-election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296b501f0cf394c0fa9646986a39f0e23\u0022\u003EHon Maggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: Smith has integrity; that member\u2019s a stranger to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265dd19e02661430a812e596d0f683b08\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: What would that member know? The weed-eating specialist. The weed-eating specialist decides she\u2019s going to interpose and tell us what she knows about the matter. Can I just say that when I had a by-election on the question of representation, Mr Smith and his colleagues never even turned up. No, don\u2019t smile now; don\u2019t look away. Here\u2019s the test of what I\u2019m saying: I put the principles behind our arguments behind this bill on the line, and when I did, the National Party never even turned up. That\u2019s why we got 90.28 percent of the vote, which is still a record\u2014just in case \u201CMyrtle Rust\u201D doesn\u2019t know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220993baf7c07946ecb10c28774fe10154\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Use her name; don\u2019t be disrespectful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2b2bc32ae424bbb9d5ef33be7e95652\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebed9e0177b24149867b405b6d19afde\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Could we come to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b394e0acbf7348f284a85b1e7037917c\u0022\u003EHon Maggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I would imagine that the derogatory reference that the member who has just resumed his seat is making is directed at me. I take offence at it and ask that he withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251abcb567d2742c1b2632b9113c2475e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The difficulty we have is that the member is assuming\u2014because he didn\u2019t actually name the member that he was being derogatory about, and there was quite a bit of insult being thrown around about a number of members. So, look, I would really like the member who has the floor to address the bill. This is the third reading, and I ask him now\u2014we have 5\u00BD minutes to go\u2014to please talk about the bill as it has emerged from the committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225172154a30ac474b8404268b887c300e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The fundamental principle of this bill is that the electoral system in this country, which is MMP, is honoured, and that\u2019s what I\u2019m dealing with. I\u2019m not going to be put off by all sorts of challenges as to whether it\u2019s relevant or not. The fundamental principle is: does MMP exist in this country with exactitude, or can members of Parliament please themselves as to whether it stands or not? We passed this law on a choice in a referendum in 1992 and a final one in 1993. It\u2019s been going for 25 years, and I\u2019d expect people to understand the principles. It\u2019s fundamental to this bill. That\u2019s what I\u2019m dealing with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBut why would the National Party be so concerned about this issue? I\u2019ll tell you why it is. There are 45 members of Parliament who have left National in the last nine years. I would\u2019ve thought they\u2019d be grabbing this bill with both hands. I would have thought they\u2019d be thinking this is their grateful sanctuary. Forty-five MPs\u2014two pages\u2014in the last nine years. A lot were kicked. A lot got the boot. Some got pushed. Some jumped because they realised that they were on their way. As a consequence, we have these people making all sorts of statements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ENow, can I just say, with sympathy to my Green colleagues, this: do they not remember when two members of Parliament for the Green Party\u2014Fitzsimons was the first one. Do you know who the second one was? Does my colleague remember that? Well, I do. They signed a declaration to stay with The Alliance all the way to the next election. That\u2019s what they did, and here we have people here saying that somehow I\u2019m imposing this provision. That\u2019s false. The law that we are putting through today was a law that existed on our statute book at the start of this century. It was a law that existed on our statute book at the start of the century. There is nothing new about that. Now, I can\u2019t remember back then, of course, Mr Nick Smith ranting and raving like he is today. I know that the National Party\u2019s a lost cause. The day you make your flag bearer Nick Smith, you\u2019re lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8f418de8e354ef88f242661b608b457\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, I\u2019m not lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b90a093338274708a9a7ccb37afcf710\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re seriously stuffed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab090359c86346c9b8edac2b05ac73c5\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not lost. I know where I am.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1c666e234a6421da835e86ad5b1112b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, not you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The day a party makes some tired, worn-out member of Parliament with such a specious political background\u2014such a specious background\u2014the flag bearer of the party, they are desperately lost. Mr Smith has in the past told Parliament statements, such as the pecuniary interest statement he made, which has never ever been honoured. On the question, for example, of whether it is right for a member of Parliament to be asked to stand aside and go and face a by-election to seek their own mandate, Mr Smith\u2014when that was last put to him in the form of the Tauranga by-election on 17 April 1993, he and his party never even turned up. That\u2019s how strong and principled they are on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s something unique about New Zealand First in this context. Only two members of Parliament in the last half-century have ever had the decency to put it on the line in a by-election. I\u2019m one, and Tariana Turia is the other one, and all the rest are high-minded hypocrisy\u2014false crocodile tears. No principles whatsoever. The principle behind the third reading of this bill is whether or not proportionality under our system, now 25 years old, should be honoured by members of Parliament and be required to be honoured by members of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EOne last thing I want to say is about this allegation that it gives the leaders all the power in the world. This weekend, this party is going to its annual conference\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e678bc34575461796f94c056c049b1b\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: In a phone booth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022100e3994cafe44988cd6278b25e7ee5d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for the 25th year, and it\u2019ll be wall-to-wall\u2014packed to the gunnels. The only people who have phone booth meetings are members like that former Minister over there, who can\u2019t even get himself into the phone booth. Let me ask you a question: has anybody seen that member from Dunedin in an audience?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb637f5fd0994c4ca91a8b3e6ee0fd0c\u0022\u003EHon Member \u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dedba1ddd9e4b1b9784c2be55782a3b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What does that have to do with the bill? Just remind me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022673ab06583454d14aa25b1de0a29a95a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what it has to do with the bill is this is a Parliament, and if people want to interject, they can stand a rejoinder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f621ac73c5b4f09b329ed02f797e54e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: They do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9ee6ca72c6542cfbaf2530a2f8220c4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s called abiding open democracy. That\u2019s what that\u2019s about. Back to my point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203b00b2f87e64a63ae549eb1233fabf7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But there are rules in this democracy, so address the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291254791a27a457484d3bbd4216ab4d3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say this: the allegation that the leader has all the say is utter humbug. We go to our 25th-year celebration this weekend. Can I say, that is the second-longest surviving political party in our country\u2019s history that has not changed its name\u2014the second-longest in this country\u2019s history that hasn\u2019t changed its name\u2014and we\u2019ve gone for 25th years because we are a consultative democracy. We are a consultative democracy, and my colleagues know they have more say in this party than they would in any other. That\u2019s why I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022627d4c0214a14db1b6ebe8091127c7f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022627d4c0214a14db1b6ebe8091127c7f8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Deputy Speaker, I do seek your indulgence and I do want to explain. I seek the leave of the House to table a press release that is only available from the Parliamentary Library by the Rt Hon Winston Peters, saying that MPs must be able to leave their party and should not be blindly loyal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221620461b2ccb4c1e8b606f0b37871f57\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Deputy Speaker, it\u2019s not going to be allowed. He\u2019s wasting time. This is a debating point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223146860d98b6417398fad9b575965692\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to the party on which they were elected. No, it\u2019s absolutely critical. It contradicts everything you just said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bed775f7f2a946a0959cd6ce42e98a34\u0022\u003ERT Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down. You\u2019re not going to get it. The answer is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ceaee6c329346d491737cc2505d2e35\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Are you using the Speaker\u2019s ruling that the Hon Gerry Brownlee brought to the attention of the Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4be51c399314eb09fafa897309c9a29\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I was referring to the House earlier, because this press release is only available from the Parliamentary Library. It is not generally available to members, and it contradicts what the Rt Hon Winston Peters has just said to the Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00223783c5b9d0974ab9834adf133f8c0331\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223783c5b9d0974ab9834adf133f8c0331\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On that condition, I will put the leave. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u002257bbf227b7074915b2275d9ba3fd96f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257bbf227b7074915b2275d9ba3fd96f2\u0022\u003EHon MAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill\u2014otherwise known as the \u201CWaka Jumping Bill\u201D, the \u201CBrendan Horan Memorial Bill\u201D, and the \u201CWinston Peters Self-preservation Bill\u201D\u2014at its third reading. Frankly, after the diatribe that we\u2019ve just had to endure, with drivel added from a member well past their use-by date, I would like to read aloud from the press release that that member and his party\u2014the motley crew\u2014stood against the Hon Dr Nick Smith tabling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003ETo read aloud: \u201Cmembers of parliament have to be free to follow their conscience. They were elected to represent their constituents, not swear an oath of blind allegiance to a political party. If an MP feels that membership in another elected party better serves his or her constituents, then that can be put to the test at election time.\u201D Winston Peters, on 6 March 1996, 22 years ago, did have a modicum of integrity back then; not much, admittedly. But, as he goes on to say, \u201CFreedom should not extend to the ability to simply dream up a party and call yourself its leader, thus entitling you to extra taxpayers\u2019 funds even though it is a hollow sham, nor should it extend to being permitted to construct a political parachute which is in the best interests of no one but the MPs involved.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWell, we rest our case, except that there is more to be said, because, frankly, when we look at the roll call of shame that the member Winston Peters, who spoke before me, tried to go through with this party, what\u2019s happened to Andrew Williams, Arsenate Lola-Taylor, Richard Prosser, Brendan Horan, Tuku Morgan, Delamere, Henare, and Mark? These are all the legacy of the leadership of Winston Peters\u2014who was here a while ago. Some have been recycled, but not very successfully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWhen we look at what we have been dealing with over the past 22 hours of debate\u2014and as the deputy chair of the Justice Committee, I listened to the submissions. I paid attention to the vast bulk and weight of abhorrence around this bill\u2014submitters who said that it was a sad day for democracy that this should even be considered, and that it does need a sunset clause. But, really, what it does, at its heart, is continue that New Zealand First - Labour - Green approach to changing electoral law without the true consensus of this Parliament. It is overriding democracy to entrench their own political positions, and it is an abuse of power of the worst possible kind. Their heads are now lowered in shame; they say nothing. What this bill needs is a sunset clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI absolutely agree with the Hon Dr Nick Smith that this is a bill that is on notice. The campaign for repeal begins as soon as it\u2019s passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWe have looked at a number of arguments in the last 22 hours. I have voiced my opinion and views on it, but don\u2019t just take my word for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233ce126b46da4720a8d7cc6153f2d70c\u0022\u003EHon Kris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: We never do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229447bddef5c0400abc86d55a2470d1d7\u0022\u003EHon MAGGIE BARRY\u003C/span\u003E: Let us look at integrity, which cannot be legislated for\u2014and it would do Minister Faafoi well to listen to this, given his reprimand and general cheekiness. So we hear from one our submitters, the Greens co-leader for 10 years no less, from 1999 to 2009\u2014Jeanette Fitzsimmons said, \u201C[This] Bill breaches the Bill of Rights, [it] denies freedom of speech and association, is contrary to international and NZ precedent, and is opposed by an impressive array of senior legal, constitutional, and political experts. It is unnecessary to address any real problem.\u201D \u201CThis bill\u201D, says Jeanette Fitzsimons, \u201Cis a poor solution, looking for a non-existent problem.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EMany of the arguments that were put forward by other people who came and submitted to us addressed the issue that she also made, which is that the main argument advanced for this bill is, in fact, its stated purpose: to maintain proportionality of political party representation. That\u2019s as determined by electors. This bill elevates a bureaucratic structure\u2014the party\u2014above the principles it stands for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EA group of 19 academics came before the select committee and made a very substantial clause by clause rebuttal of it. Their four key points as to why it is inadvisable to consider this bill even with substantial amendments are as follows: because electoral integrity legislation creates more problems than it solves, and they detail those; because political defections are not a major problem in New Zealand\u2014and they are not\u2014because there are effective political sanctions where they occur; and, the fourth point, because it may well be in violation of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990, and there have been a lot of submitters who address that particular issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EThis idea that the further significant problem that is being caused by this electoral integrity legislation is that it inevitably makes a difference between constituency and list MPs and that the former\u2014of which I am one; a representative of the North Shore electorate\u2014do have the opportunity to contest the resulting by-election while the latter, the list MPs, do not. All MPs should have the same rights and the same responsibilities. Contrary to the opinion of many, list MPs are not second-class representatives of the people, and I know that colleagues standing soon to address some of these issues in this debate will go through this situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022507d5cf3fa6f46e99c34295f7387228d\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m glad to hear that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb116257278d4f94abcff32e34a4808b\u0022\u003EHon MAGGIE BARRY\u003C/span\u003E: A list MP is piping up that they are valued, and of course we endorse that, the Hon Paul Goldsmith\u2014we do love and admire you. But I can say this: if the North Shore electorate, who elected me and subsequent members, was told by a leader of a party that I\u2019d been kicked out of Parliament, they would feel\u2014and rightly so\u2014that their democratic rights as voters had been completely overruled and overturned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWe had a further submission from a respected academic, a professor of law at the faculty of law at the University of Auckland, Janet McLean, who was outraged by this. She called it a \u201Cmajor change to \u2026 New Zealand\u2019s current constitutional arrangements and not [at all] the democracy-enhancing measure it claims to be.\u201D She believes, and states with a lot of evidence\u2014which I don\u2019t have time to go into in this call\u2014that this bill would give the parliamentary leader of a party \u201Cthe power to sanction MPs who by their actions indicate they intend to cross the floor of the House including in a possible vote of no confidence. This would be a serious change to the New Zealand constitution and undermine one of its central democracy-protecting mechanisms.\u201D As others have said, it would change the very culture of this place and is abhorrent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EAnother former Green MP, Keith Locke, renamed this the \u201CParty Conformity Bill\u201D, describing it as a new low in parliamentary integrity. He said, \u201CThe Bill violates the right of free speech by allowing for MPs to be expelled from Parliament as a consequence of speaking or voting differently from their party caucus.\u201D We debate things very, very strongly in the National caucus and then we go out with an agreed position, unless it\u2019s a conscience vote. But, as far as we are concerned, the discipline and the robust debate and discussion that goes on needs to be respected. This overrules all of this. This bill would turn party MPs into what Rod Donald called party robots; others have called them poodles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EThe late co-leader Rod Donald did quote the 2001 iteration of a bill very similar to this\u2014except that that bill at least had a sunset clause\u2014as \u201Cthe most draconian, obnoxious, anti-democratic, insulting legislation ever inflicted on this Parliament.\u201D I do hope that the Green members who are in this Chamber will be taking a call. It is extraordinary and outrageous that in 22 hours of debate in this House, we have not heard a single call from any of those members. This is a bill that contradicts all of their fundamental principles. It contradicts the very reason for their existence. They would not exist if this bill had existed, and it is extraordinary that they are so caught up in being sold out with the baubles of office that they cannot even stand up for a fundamental principle. It is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI will conclude my remarks in this debate by quoting from Dr The Rt Hon Sir Lockwood Smith\u2019s submission to Parliament. His retirement followed his 29-year political career. He didn\u2019t feel the need to come back for any old thing; he made an exception in this case. He came before the select committee and talked about the fact that \u201CThis Bill could breach the fundamental right of Members to speak in the House freely\u201D\u2014to cross the floor, as Damien O\u2019Connor and Rino Tirikatene from Labour did. These are fundamental rights and principles. Dr The Rt Hon Lockwood Smith was saying that as far as he was concerned, over the years \u201Cparliamentary debate [had become] more constrained and increasingly controlled by political parties. Accountability to political parties has been strengthened\u201D\u2014he believed\u2014\u201Cat the expense of accountability to voters, especially local constituents. The instances of Members crossing the floor \u2026 has become almost non-existent.\u201D He laments that and says, \u201CThere is no case to impose an even tighter regime on MPs with this Bill. The current sanctions [are sufficient].\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003ESo his submission is that the protection of the privilege of freedom of speech in the House must take priority and must not be put at risk by the provisions of this appalling bill, which would empower a leader to dismiss a member in contravention of that all-important right. It would mute MPs\u2019 ability to have free speech. It will change the nature and way we make legislation in this country. It is abhorrent, it is wrong, and the campaign to repeal it begins now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022baf0d185a9554eee920d3188156dc3ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022baf0d185a9554eee920d3188156dc3ad\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call to support the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill at its third reading. This bill is one of the coalition Government\u2019s priorities. It is a bill that serves the significant constitutional objective of preserving the proportionality of party representation in Parliament as determined in the last election. This bill upholds the public\u2019s confidence in the integrity of Parliament, in the integrity of its MPs, and in the integrity of our voting system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the Electoral Act 1993. Prior to that, we had first past the post. If a member of Parliament came in here through the party system and decided for a number of reasons to vacate their seat or to leave the party, there would generally be a by-election. The expectation of the public would be that there would be a by-election. In 1993, we introduced this proportionality system. What was the reason for that? It was about ensuring that proportionality of where the voters wanted to go would be upheld. I think there may be some confusion from some on the other side of the House, because I think, for the first time, they are seeing what I would regard as a true coalition Government. It is a true coalition Government of three independent parties who have a point of difference in the electorate that they would be advocating for and in the cohort of voters that they would be championing, but none the less, ultimately, all three parties are fundamentally in agreement about where they want this country to go: a far better, kinder nation than ever before. So I don\u2019t see any problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI disagree\u2014listening intently to the words of the speakers on the other side, I have to say that scaremongering is so outdated. This bill is forward-looking. This bill is about keeping the proportionality. I don\u2019t see a problem. If the leader of a particular party has an issue with any member, the two-thirds majority which they are required to undertake is a constitutional norm. There is a constitutional norm of a two-thirds majority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c467b8d3ce1497dbadb8e3cd5408a1b\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: So name one constitutional expert who agrees with you. Name one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213eab6a0cb74417188fd4bf3c5a10a55\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: What that means, Mr Macindoe, is it is not up to the one individual to determine what happens to that person. There is the collective of a party system. That\u2019s the party system that we have\u2014that\u2019s the party system that we have. So if a person chooses, for whatever reason, to vacate their seat\u2014if it\u2019s an electorate member, they have the option of a by-election. If it\u2019s a list member\u2014how do list members get chosen into the House? They were elected by their parties. They are elected. They sign an authority\u2014they sign an agreement\u2014to abide by the rules of their particular party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI just want to say, I listened intently to the Hon Dr Nick Smith, who said he hated what is happening. But I want to say I hate the feigned anger\u2014the feigned anger\u2014as if they were pretending. I hate the pretence of attempting to talk about protecting human rights of New Zealanders. What did they do about the human rights of workers in the last nine years? What did they do about the human rights of the poor and those who are desperate and wanting welfare protection that they did not give? What have they done about the rights of people who want to own their own home? In the last nine years, they didn\u2019t even consider that. So, tonight, when I hear the right honourable Dr Nick Smith say that he hates this and that it somehow undermines human rights, I\u2019d say to him that I hate his pretence about suddenly wanting to protect human rights, when in the last nine years, all they did was put the thumb on hard-working New Zealanders. So I\u2019ve got no hesitation to recommend this bill for passage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1cd542af74f41e4abbeb9b5aacd513b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1cd542af74f41e4abbeb9b5aacd513b\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E This is indeed a very, very sad day for the international reputation of New Zealand\u2019s Parliament and New Zealand\u2019s democracy. I have been privileged to be a member of this Parliament for, now, 24 years. So I haven\u2019t done as long as Winston Peters, but I\u2019ve certainly done my 24 years continually, without having been kicked out a couple of times from this place. Having spent 24 years here, I can tell you that no one comes into this Parliament with all the answers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EPolitics is a contest of ideas. We see that every day, here in this debating chamber, as we respect each other\u2019s point of view, we respect the philosophies and the convictions, and, most of all, until today, we respected individual consciences of members of Parliament. But what we\u2019re doing today is we\u2019re changing all that. We\u2019re saying that while there will continue to be a contest of ideas within this debating chamber, under this legislation, there will no longer be a contest of ideas within each caucus. This sort of legislation puts us in the esteemed company\u2014the esteemed company\u2014of parliaments like Zimbabwe\u2019s and Pakistan\u2019s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI realised that when MMP came in in 1996, we would continue to do coalition deals for Government. I accept that this particular coalition Government, with three parties\u2014the Greens, New Zealand First, and Labour\u2014is the first of its kind, when the party that won the most votes has been sent into Opposition, but that\u2019s the rules of MMP. But I still express my absolute disappointment with the Green Party, that has spent, since its inception in this Parliament, every chance to rail against this legislation, until this particular opportunity, and what became clear throughout this debate is that a deal\u2019s been done. We know that the deal is the Greens got their oil and gas prohibition ban passed\u2014to affect economies of New Zealand, but particularly Taranaki\u2014and in return for that deal, they agreed to vote for the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI think the Greens hope that this will be forgotten by the time we get to the next election. Let me assure the leaders of the Green Party here in Parliament today that it will not be forgotten by Green members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720200d709f64a2e8f36c04982767eee\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Or forgiven.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b87def5954c42869a498ab72cc14ec4\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or forgiven. I say that because one thing I know about the members of the Green Party that I know is that they are principled people. I don\u2019t agree with many of their ideas at all, but they come to support their philosophies and their ideas with conviction, and they\u2019re loyal to those convictions. They will not be happy to see eight votes cast later on this afternoon to support legislation which the likes of the late Rod Donald would have railed against. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI say to the Labour Party members that they, equally, have been shamefully quiet throughout this debate. We did have this type of legislation once before, in 2001-05, brought in, again, because of another political party leader\u2019s inability to control his members, and I talk about the late Hon Jim Anderton. But in that particular case, there was a strong Prime Minister, Helen Clark, and she had the fortitude\u2014she had the gumption\u2014to at least set that legislation with a sunset clause to allow it to pass through for the period of 2001-05, when it was likely Mr Anderton could not manage his caucus. That\u2019s the difference between the Rt Hon Helen Clark and the current Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern. She could have accepted this legislation was necessary\u2014and I see Marama Davidson nodding her head in agreement\u2014but it could have been done with a sunset clause that expires at the end of this Parliament. But, no, we have a particularly weak Prime Minister in this case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThen we have New Zealand First, for whom we\u2019ve now sat in this House for 22 hours, debating this legislation\u2014for the benefit of New Zealand First as a political party. Not one call, I believe, was taken by a New Zealand First member to justify it. I know why they were quiet, because I think they have a vested interest in this legislation being passed because, allegedly, they have signed a bond\u2014a personal bond\u2014for $300,000, which will no longer be necessary and which will be cancelled once this legislation is passed. The Hon Ron Mark shakes his head and says that\u2019s not so, but the Rt Hon Winston Peters said it was so. Other members of New Zealand First said they signed such a bond. The odd member of New Zealand First said, \u201COh, I can\u2019t remember.\u201D\u2014can\u2019t remember that you\u2019ve signed a personal commitment to pay $300,000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThis is the very reason this legislation\u2019s before the House, and I think is shameful for New Zealand First to be in that position, whereby their own personal financial interests are potentially affected by this legislation. I think that the allegation that such a rule existed, raised by the Hon Dr Nick Smith, should have been contested through a Privileges Committee hearing to find out the truth. I well remember Mr Peters with his \u201CNo\u201D sign about the donation received from Owen Glenn, and it was only when that went through a select committee process\u2014the Privileges Committee\u2014that we found out that, indeed, he had not been telling the truth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to conclude by saying that I felt so deeply about this legislation that I made a submission to the select committee myself. I have never had to make a personal submission to a select committee in my 24 years here. In making that submission, I took the opportunity of drawing the committee\u2019s attention to a report of the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU). I want to take an opportunity to read my comments to the select committee to the House today. The IPU has published a report entitled The impact of political party control over the exercise of the parliamentary mandate. This report is critical of the very law that is being passed in this Parliament today, stating that it creates\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cpolitical party dictatorships\u201D. It argues in this report that the free mandate of members of Parliament is\u2014and, again, I quote\u2014an \u201Cindispensable guarantee of parliamentary democracy.\u201D It goes on to state that \u201Cwhile party loyalty and discipline are necessary they must never impair the full and effective exercise of freedom of expression and association by any member of that [political] party since these are overriding fundamental human rights.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ff704a811514daebdcf3a41e6a63b52\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it was written 10 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfde0336fa58483896218abd08b8f0c5\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Darroch Ball may want to ignore the report of the IPU; I have no intention of ignoring that report. That report was produced because of other members of Parliament from right around the world being absolutely appalled with the sort of thing that happened in Zimbabwe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI came here as a member of the National Party\u2014as a proud member of the National Party. I wouldn\u2019t want to stay in that National Party any longer if my conscience\u2014my ability to express my opinion\u2014was curtailed in that caucus. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing today. We\u2019re passing a law that will further damage the high regard in which New Zealand\u2019s democracy is held around the world. It is a very, very sad day for the democracy of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u00222743e3200c934c90b5f8a8f8fc39da93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222743e3200c934c90b5f8a8f8fc39da93\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E This morning, I had the pleasure of announcing the repeal of Part 4A of National\u2019s funded family care legislation, which restricted the rights of families of severely disabled people to take the Government to court for contravening their human rights. This was the most egregious abuse of human rights by the last National Government, and it was condemned by the courts and sent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c258855f6a5d473ea1c08e790d885646\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I don\u2019t really want to bring the member to order, but we are on the third reading of the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227113240ddeb2437199dd4ffe9c6a4fd9\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: The point is relevant, Madam Assistant Speaker. It was condemned by the courts and the Human Rights Commission. The decision of the Green Party to vote for this bill\u2014the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill\u2014has been the most difficult decision that we have taken in the last year that we have been in Government, but given the opportunity to change the Government and to repeal the human rights abuses of the last National Government, it does put it into some context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe reason that we decided to vote for the bill and the process that we went through were clearly set out by Golriz Ghahraman in the second reading debate. We had to grapple with two competing principles. The first was our strong historical opposition to similar legislation, and the second was our commitment in our confidence and supply agreement to act in good faith to allow all other agreements, including the coalition agreement, to be complied with. I want to emphasise that the decision that we faced on this bill is not typical of the sorts of decisions that we have made or will make in this parliamentary term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe agreements between the Government parties include a lot of progressive policy, and it is for that reason\u2014the opportunity to advance that policy\u2014that we entered this Government. There has been a lot of attention on the Green Party during the debate on this bill. This is understandable, given our historic opposition to similar bills in the past and also some of the great former members of Parliament who have spoken out against the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge, in particular, Jeanette Fitzsimons and Keith Locke, who made a number of submissions against this bill at select committee, as well as other Green Party members who opposed the bill. We heard you. We do want you to continue to challenge us and to hold us accountable as we go through the experience of being in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe National Party have been particularly interested in the Greens\u2019 position on this bill, and I thank them\u2014and, in particular, Dr Nick Smith\u2014for their concern trolling. I have to say, there are a number of historical facts that have been completely misspoken during the course of the debates on this bill, because, while we didn\u2019t take a lot of calls, we did listen to the words of some of the former speakers. I want to just set the record straight on a few things\u2014in particular, actually, how the Green Party behaved in the 1996-99 Parliament, when Jeanette Fitzsimons and Rod Donald and the Green Party decided that they would contest the subsequent election under the Green Party banner rather than under the Alliance banner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1dd12ad35d447919259db5aad3c765e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: They behaved with integrity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022107b78cf30fc4df38c45321097210686\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: They absolutely behaved with integrity. They maintained that because they had been elected in the 1996 election under the Alliance banner, they would continue to remain as members of the Alliance caucus for the remainder of that term and to vote with the Alliance caucus for the remainder of that term, even though they intended to contest the subsequent election as Green Party MPs under the Green Party banner. In other words, they actually acted completely consistently with the principles that are outlined in this very bill. They actually said that because they had been elected under the Alliance banner in the 1996 election, they would respect the will of those voters and maintain that through until the next election. So all of the words that have been spoken about that moment in history are completely incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI also want to just return to some of the words I heard earlier from Dr Nick Smith. He\u2019s called this an affront to democracy. He said, \u201CI hate this bill for the power grab that it is.\u201D One of the things that has been overlooked in much of the debate is that there is a clause in this bill that says that the party constitutions must be complied with; otherwise, it\u2019s invalid. Now, if you don\u2019t like this\u2014if you do not want your party to exercise or have the ability to exercise the provisions in this bill\u2014you can include a clause in your party constitution barring you from doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EMarama Davidson and I have written to the Green Party executive and asked them to consider, as part of an ongoing constitutional review, whether or not they should include that clause barring us from using that. So I want to encourage Dr Nick Smith to ask his party leader, Simon Bridges, to write to the National Party executive and ask them to include a clause in the National Party constitution barring Simon Bridges or any other leader of the National Party from using the provisions in this bill, because they have that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EBut I note that the leader of the National Party has already said that he may use the provisions in this bill if it comes to pass, even though it is an affront to democracy, in the words of his own members. Despite railing against the provisions in this bill for the months that it has been through Parliament, through the hours of debate that it has had\u2014that the leader of the National Party cannot guarantee that he would not use the provisions in this bill against his own members is utterly extraordinary. So I want to encourage the National Party\u2014if they\u2019re so worried about this\u2014to change their constitution so that their own leadership cannot use the provisions in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EWhile we said that we had a number of concerns, we did decide to vote for this bill for two reasons, like I said. First of all was that we have a commitment to uphold our confidence and supply agreement and to ensure the integrity of the Government, and we back each other on this side of the House. We do uphold our commitments even when the going gets tough. And the National Party on a number of occasions have called on us to stand on principle, to trash our confidence and supply agreement, and to vote against the coalition agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI want to ask the members of the National Party here present: if the M\u0101ori Party had stood on principle and had voted against the National Party\u2019s swingeing cuts to social welfare and to beneficiaries in their Government, would they have said the same thing? Would they have said \u201CThat\u2019s OK. The M\u0101ori Party is standing on principle and they\u2019re destroying our cuts to social welfare.\u201D? I don\u2019t think they would have. I think they would have meted out such punishment on the M\u0101ori Party like you just wouldn\u2019t believe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ELike I said, this has not been easy for us. We have been through an extensive\u2014I say, very extensive\u2014process with our party, with our executive, with our policy committee, and with our caucus, and we have arrived at the conclusion that whilst we are uncomfortable with this bill, the provisions that we have negotiated in this bill and the safeguards that we built\u2014particularly in relation to the opportunity for parties to amend their own constitution\u2014have made it OK and have gotten us to the point where we\u2019re willing to let this bill pass. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI have to say that there are many opportunities that come with being part of this Government: the opportunity to have the most progressive, the most sustainable Government, and the most sustainable, the most progressive society that we have seen in a long time. But the opportunity to change the Government, to get rid of the last National Government, to repeal their human rights abuses\u2014and Dr Smith\u2019s behaviour during the debate on this bill has illustrated starkly why it was such a good decision to go with Labour and New Zealand First and to change that Government with all of their human rights abuses. We\u2019re not comfortable with it, but we will vote for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002248647cbd29b14c1fbbb1f8e1d632ef8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248647cbd29b14c1fbbb1f8e1d632ef8c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E That was just an extraordinary speech from the co-leader\u2014[Interruption] I find it amazing that the members opposite think this is funny. They\u2019re actually sitting in the House, they\u2019re laughing\u2014they think this is funny. So take a call\u2014take a call and address some of the issues that I\u2019m going to raise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI find it extraordinary that James Shaw, the co-leader of the Green Party, has just stood in this House and said that they\u2019re going to use their vote\u2014a vote, actually, that when you look around this wall Kiwis have gone overseas and fought for. It\u2019s something that we should take extremely seriously, and it\u2019s a huge privilege and a huge right to stand in this House and to be able to use a vote. He just stood in this House and he said, \u201CWe don\u2019t believe in this.\u201D He\u2019s served his conscience up on a silver platter and he said, \u201CWe will stand in this House and you\u2019ll get our eight votes and we will pass this legislation, and then we\u2019ll go straight back to our caucus room and we\u2019ll write a letter to say that we don\u2019t want this law to apply to us, and we\u2019re not actually going to allow it to apply to us.\u201D, and yet they\u2019re going to stand in this House and they\u2019re going to vote for it. Someone on the Government benches, take a call and explain to us and tell us exactly what that means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been making notes. The other extraordinary thing in this debate is this: this bill is the Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2019. I haven\u2019t been that long\u2014I\u2019ve been here for two terms and am into my third term. The author of a bill, when they\u2019re lucky enough to have it drawn from the ballot or a Minister brings it to the House\u2014they\u2019re proud of it, they believe in it, and they\u2019ll stand in this House and they\u2019ll talk to it, they\u2019ll defend it, and they\u2019ll make a case. They might take the chair through the committee stage and they\u2019ll stand and they\u2019ll speak to the bill. The author of this bill has come to this House and made one speech, and it was today in the third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been making notes on speakers so that I could stand up and I could respond to them. This was the Hon James Shaw: there are some notes here, and I\u2019m actually going to\u2014if I have time\u2014come back to them. These are the notes that I made for the Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2014nothing. Go back and have a look at his 10-minute speech in support of his own bill. Have a look at his 10-minutes speech in support of his own bill. He does not talk to one substantive issue contained within that bill. He spent the whole time making personal attacks on members of the Opposition. So what does that tell us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225476afe409ff44328bb3ef7b9bb88d84\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: It sounds like this speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c9dc349d1434024b2e9ffdfb1946328\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Sounds like this speech? OK, so she\u2019s saying that I\u2019m not talking to one substantive issue on this bill. Let\u2019s get to some substantive issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe Hon William Sio stood and said that, effectively, list members don\u2019t matter\u2014list members don\u2019t matter. What happens\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022861e0620d2514ef8bc977df8646b28ea\u0022\u003EHon Aupito William Sio\u003C/span\u003E: I did not. Don\u2019t put words in my mouth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cb4bc8d0bf14ae7b822c80d6b89c2cf\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll tell you exactly what you said. You said that the party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a5831e028a9423aaf4229e03bde7481\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3e3fe81d3754dbeb8ef638df5ebfd49\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Madam Assistant Speaker. I\u2019ll recite exactly what the member said. The member said that the party will put the list together, and so, if the list members\u2014what happens then is that the party leader has got the right to be able to dismiss those list members of Parliament. Actually, a lot of people, on the face of it, if they don\u2019t actually look at the debate carefully, might agree with you. But there\u2019s a problem with that, and what you\u2019ve done is you\u2019ve completely undermined every list member of this Parliament\u2014certainly on your side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s think about that. That list is put together and it\u2019s then published. It\u2019s then published for the country to have a look at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258b0530ec3be47a6a6d2098c951ff92c\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s what they vote on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223befa3aaaa244afa8365f1e083c47121\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. Mr Webb just said it\u2019s what they vote on. So is it the party leader that dictates who the public vote for? Is it the public that look in the list and decide who they vote for? The big thing that\u2019s been left out in this debate is the voters, so that\u2019s one issue that I want to raise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThis bill, without a doubt, is going to turn list MPs into zombies\u2014there\u2019s no doubt about that. They may as well not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a75e65e32944aa3bc114bbe95562f30\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c23cacaeadf447ad98399d32e6ba7c14\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: You can laugh. Are you an electorate MP? It\u2019s a bit different for you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228da2d7f79e2749429ef3bb1fd58d967d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Mr Mitchell\u2014thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a3417faaf94cc48ad3e6fd438c06b6\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Madam Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e20b495911b54f2bb74a55bccdaede5e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. It\u2019s all right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a3b9fba75444207bfbaf9159396ff15\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: But the reality of it is list MPs in this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d1152f1bea045c9b425592a3109e948\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I know you\u2019re trying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022081efe952e864ce18f52edb5930b558a\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I am. I\u2019m doing my best. It\u2019s very hard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2add9a5a3784354addafd91d3c8f02a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e4b812ae4da48318b1293f14365820e\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: The reality of it is list MPs of this House become zombies. That\u2019s a tough thing to say when you\u2019ve got members like the Hon Ron Mark, who prides himself on being pretty fiercely independent and comes to this House and has never been afraid of letting his voice be heard. But the reality of it is this: when this bill passes, his leader owns all the power. His leader has the power. His leader can decide. If he wants to take a stand on something, his leader can just eject him from Parliament\u2014that\u2019s it. You\u2019re gone. Pack your bags, and you\u2019re out of here\u2014sling your hook. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9f334bc1ab44b04adcb74e8c42ddb20\u0022\u003EHon Ron Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022240c73b2255f42eab8e7b37f3619ad21\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: He agrees. He\u2019s agreeing with me. Right, OK. So let\u2019s use that as a premise. So tell me something: how do you come to this House, and how do you\u2014sorry, Madam Assistant Speaker. How does the member come to this House and how does he defend the community that he wants to actually represent? Right? How does he defend the community? What happens if there\u2019s a direct conflict with his leader and the community that he\u2019s wanting to represent? He\u2019s gone. He\u2019s gone\u2014you\u2019re out. What happens if the member wants to actually advance something in his portfolio as the Minister of Defence and his leader doesn\u2019t agree? He\u2019s gone. You\u2019re out. Pack your bags\u2014you\u2019re gone. So you become a zombie\u2014you become a zombie MP. The member cannot advance the interests of either the electorate or his portfolio. You are now under the full control of your leader. That\u2019s it\u2014end of story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe great thing about us, the National Party, is that we want to repeal this legislation. The Green member James Shaw made a point around whether we\u2019ll use this or not. The clear answer to that is this: no, we will not, and we will repeal the legislation. I\u2019d be interested to know\u2014and I\u2019ll put this to the Green Party\u2014would you support us if we brought a bill to this House repealing this legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThere was another issue raised around MMP. I can tell you, in my own electorate, I was at Wentworth College on Monday, and they were doing civics and they wanted to know about the history of MMP. MMP was formed in Germany post - World War II. It was a system that was put together so that they would try to prevent all the power being concentrated in one party like we saw in the Nazi Party. Germany, the home of MMP\u2014what do they think of this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f9bd3414b464463a7e22a66a6c5a4ed\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s banned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f00d0f99a4843239aae5d58bb40c25c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s banned. It\u2019s illegal. They will not allow it to be passed in their House of Representatives for the very reasons that the Hon Dr Nick Smith has made and the very reasons that the Rt Hon David Carter has made. It will suppress everything in this country that we fundamentally believe in, and that is free speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to end up on one point, and I\u2019m going to relate it back to my own electorate. In 2017, on the campaign trail, I had the New Zealand First candidate, the Hon Tracey Martin, stand up in front of a packed hall at a public meeting and say, \u201CMark Mitchell will not represent you. Mark Mitchell will not advance the issues in the electorate\u201D\u2014my electorate of Rodney\u2014\u201Cbecause he\u2019s a creature of the party, and he\u2019ll always do what the party says and what the party tells him to do.\u201D Well, the Hon Tracey Martin is just about to vote on a bill that is going to cement in concrete that she is a creature of her party. She will never ever take a stand against her party leader. She will never ever advance a local issue because she is just about to vote into law legislation that means that she is a creature of the party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud to be a member of the New Zealand National Party, but I\u2019m even more proud to represent my electorate of Rodney as their representative\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270371026d5124a27a01095b03932480d\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CMore proud\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b04568f752074573bd39a22390984275\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in this House of Representatives. Absolutely, I am. He\u2019s amazed. Mr Webb\u2019s amazed that I take more pride in actually representing my electorate. Of course I do\u2014that\u2019s what I\u2019m sent here for. That\u2019s what they voted\u2014the electorate gets to actually make a vote for who they want to represent them, and they also get to make a vote with a party vote in terms of who\u2019s best aligned with their own values and who they think can lead the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWhile I\u2019ve been in this House, I\u2019ve taken three stands against my own country in the last six years\u2014all things that I knew were important to my electorate; all things that I knew were\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265f6f0e4f4644e76b703abd9e26d486a\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e602806b964e4ddbaf1c3ab0ff3f1c77\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: They think it\u2019s funny. Mr Greg O\u2019Connor thinks that\u2019s funny. You know what? The sad thing is that he took a stand on something that he thought was important two or three weeks ago, and he immediately had to\u2014like a whimpering dog, tail between his legs\u2014come out and apologise. He had to come out and say he was sorry. So that\u2019s why this bill will make no difference to him. It will make no difference to him because he\u2019s under the complete control of the leader. We\u2019ve seen that clearly demonstrated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWe will not adhere to this bill, and we will continue to represent the people that vote us in and send us to this House of Representatives. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022df202c0b9921456994eac0d91bfbfa7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df202c0b9921456994eac0d91bfbfa7f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand this is a split call. Greg O\u2019Connor\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022afdb2dc30eb742878772a2817f27890a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afdb2dc30eb742878772a2817f27890a\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E It is, Madam Assistant Speaker. It does give me great pleasure\u2014for those that are listening at home, I think there\u2019s been so much emotion and different things spoken about this bill, but I think, really, we need to go back to what we\u2019re talking about. The new section 55A of the Electoral Act provides that the seat of a member of Parliament, either electorate or list, will become vacant when the member ceases to be a parliamentary member of a political party for which he or she was elected. That\u2019s what we\u2019re discussing here. It\u2019s pretty basic democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EI have to say I just heard the speech from the Hon James Shaw. I\u2019ve sat through many deliberations on this bill. I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve missed any of the Justice Committee deliberations or any of the readings of this bill. I\u2019ve heard a lot about it, but, actually, what the Hon James Shaw just said really should be the pivotal part of this whole debate. That was actually a man speaking who understands democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EDemocracy is\u2014I think we often talk about it; it\u2019s something that\u2019s often thrown around as a \u201Cwhen it suits people\u201D. But the one thing that Winston Churchill\u2014and often it\u2019s quoted what he said about democracy: \u201CMany forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.\u201D I think we just need to remember that and reflect on the Hon James Shaw\u2019s speech, because what we\u2019re about is making sure democracy works. It is the most important thing we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThis bill is actually going to be something that is going to improve on democracy. We are a country that is on the world stage at the moment, and I think we\u2019re all proud\u2014even those with the blue ties and shirts over there. We\u2019re quietly proud of what our Prime Minister is actually achieving on that world stage. I\u2019m someone who\u2019s actually had an international chairmanship myself, as many New Zealanders have, and the thing that we\u2019re actually able to do in the world\u2014the reason we New Zealanders do bat above our weight\u2014is that we are nimble as a country. We\u2019re a country that\u2019s able to move. We\u2019re a country that has common sense. We\u2019re not hidebound by traditions, which so many other countries are, and that\u2019s what the strength of our country is and that\u2019s what our current democratic system is. We\u2019ve gone to MMP, and this piece of legislation is something that will improve MMP. This is the first real MMP Government. We\u2019ve mucked around with it in the past, but it\u2019s evolving, and the nimbleness of New Zealand and the nimbleness of our system are on display here. That\u2019s why this will be an improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EIn my last position, I often came here and had occasion to speak to MPs, and as I went through this system, some names came to me: Kopu, Kirton, Awatere Huata, Horan. And do you know what? Those people, when they left their parties, became useless to democracy. I saw them. I visited them here. They were easy to get to because they were sitting in broom cupboards, out of the way here\u2014sitting, waiting, and dreading the next election because they knew it was all over at the next election. They were actually useless to democracy, and that is why all four of them, when they did\u2014for whatever reason, and there\u2019s plenty of others who fell out for different reasons\u2014fall out, they needed to go, because they were no use to man nor beast, and they were certainly no use to democracy, any of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EI am happy, and for those who are listening at home, I am more than happy; I am relaxed about this bill because I don\u2019t think, despite the doom and gloom we\u2019re hearing from the opposite benches, particularly from Dr Nick Smith\u2014and Dr Smith, I admire his passion. I don\u2019t admire the way he treated officials during this, I might say, and I demanded that he apologise at one stage, and I will have that\u2014I do not think you should treat officials who can\u2019t answer back the way he did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBut, anyway, I\u2019ll move on from that. I\u2019ll just say that I am actually very happy to stand here. I\u2019m more than happy; I\u2019m relaxed to say that this is a piece of legislation that, despite the rhetoric around it, will improve our democratic system. It will, once again, show that New Zealand is a nimble country, a country that moves forward and can take any idea and make it better. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022236a351054a1488a87d064d3d4cdb7b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022236a351054a1488a87d064d3d4cdb7b6\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very dark day for this Parliament and for our democracy. It\u2019s the darkest day since the passage back in 2007, by the same three parties opposite, of that vile Electoral Finance Act, which I think cost them the 2008 general election. It\u2019s a very dark day for the Labour Party, New Zealand First, and especially for the Green Party, who will never again have any right to lecture the rest of us in this House from that higher moral plane that they so frequently adopt, because if they try to do so as a result of their abominable decision today, they will have no credibility whatsoever. Today they have sold their collective soul to the devil. Today they leave a permanent stain on the legacy of the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EIn the committee stage of this debate, the National MPs, including myself, put forward numerous amendments to try to improve this bill to mitigate against its worst effects, and no one other than Minister Little even engaged\u2014not one speaker from those parties, other than the Minister\u2014and none of those amendments were adopted or even considered. So this bill remains in its worst-possible form. Draconian, fundamentally undemocratic legislation that undermines the independence, integrity, and responsibility to our electorates of each one of us as MPs is being inflicted on the electorate today, with no mandate, no public demand or support, and no real majority, because we know that the Greens and most of the Labour MPs despise this bill as much as we do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s get an indication from the Labour members opposite. Who amongst them is proud of this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa3c9a09365141628f64356ee6758a7a\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: I am.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225efce239e656430cbff82cb66dd21ec5\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: So Kiri Allan is happy to go on the record, and yet she took no call at all during the committee stage. Let me ask the same question of the Greens: who in the Green Party is proud of this bill? Or were they humiliated by the despicable, disingenuous speech of Winston Peters today, especially when he misrepresented the fine tradition of Jeanette Fitzsimons and the late Rod Donald, two very honourable members. I assume New Zealand First members wouldn\u2019t dare to reveal their true feelings about this bill because if they did, they would almost certainly become the first MPs to fall victim to its odious provisions for upsetting \u201CHe Who Must Be Obeyed\u201D. And while I am deeply, deeply disappointed in them for failing to resist this abomination, I do not want to see this bill ever utilised, so I won\u2019t add to their public shame and humiliation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThey didn\u2019t take a single call during the committee stage, and those parties opposite are clearly swallowing a repulsive deceased rodent at the behest of one minor party which didn\u2019t campaign on this issue in 2017 and didn\u2019t win a seat in that election. In fact, it\u2019s not even one party; it\u2019s one paranoid man with a history of inconsistency, of unfair treatment of his own MPs, and of adopting more positions on issues than I\u2019ve had hot dinners. History suggests that if this bill is ever utilised to secure the expulsion of an MP, it will be somebody from the New Zealand First Party, and almost certainly it will be because that MP has stuck to what he or she understands the policies of that party to be while the bill\u2019s architect, Mr Peters, has yet again changed his position on an issue for reasons of expediency or for his own political advantage, and that will highlight just what a disgraceful sham this bill is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EUltimately, Oppositions cannot stop odious legislation from being passed when a Government has the numbers, but make no mistake: there is a majority against this bill in this House. So today, Labour, New Zealand First, and Green MPs are all in this together, and they must ask themselves whether abandoning their principles and compromising our democracy is justified in the name of a minor party leader\u2019s paranoia and dubious coalition cohesion. It\u2019s a day of shame for them all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI\u2019m so proud to have resisted this despicable measure at every opportunity, I feel contempt for those who are enacting it, and I look forward to the day when I can help a more principled Government to vote for its repeal. That cannot come soon enough, and today, I invoke those fine words of our national anthem: may God defend New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227339e2bdc9d3438d847aa8686bafd982\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227339e2bdc9d3438d847aa8686bafd982\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s time to just calm down and bring some common sense to this debate, I think. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard the arrogance of Mark Mitchell saying he is bigger than his party\u2014saying that he thinks his electorate means more to him than the National Party. Just remember that, on the other side of the House. That Mark Mitchell, he\u2019s bigger than you are. He thinks he\u2019s more important, and him standing in Rodney is more important than you are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThose list MPs over there need to think about it as well, because there\u2019s been a lot of talk about list MPs and the fact that under this legislation, if they go wandering and disappear from the policies of their parties, their caucus and their leader can bring them back into line, and if they continue to wander in a field of their own, they can be cut loose\u2014that\u2019s right. That\u2019s what this does, and there is a very good reason for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, Nick Smith says that people on the street think that this is an outrage. Well, I\u2019m surprised that he has even spoken to a person on the street, because do you know what people on the street really think? They think they should get the Government that they voted for\u2014that when a party puts a list full of candidates before them, those candidates will remain in the party, and if they wander off, then they can wander off and lose their seat, or, if they\u2019re a constituency MP, they can go back to their electorate, and we know what happens, historically, there. Sure, some people have gone off and stood under their own banner and they\u2019ve won their seats, and they\u2019ve perhaps started new parties. Others have faded into the true obscurity, where they belong, and that is exactly how it should be. But to be able to be a list MP and remain in this House is entirely at odds with what this electoral system demands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EDo you know what? Democracy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022465961fcba774527a6ef9b9c2c3752c3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why doesn\u2019t Germany do it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229450f1f5de784f4db47bbda45c9e7df9\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014doesn\u2019t stand still, Nick Smith\u2014a man who\u2019s perhaps been here a little bit too long, because he thinks that what goes on in here is the only important thing. What is really important is what people out there think, and they think that they should get the Government they voted for, not some jacked-up agglomeration of new arrangements that you might be trying to line up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENo, we do need a stable Government, we need a Government that is proportional, and we need a Government that reflects the last election. That is what this bill does, and that is why I am proud to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002242ffb281b05743448d95b5c1bea9fe27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242ffb281b05743448d95b5c1bea9fe27\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Assistant Speaker. This is a sad day for our Parliament that we are, yet again, enacting at the behest of one man a stupid piece of legislation that will be reflected upon overseas as a Draconian, anti-democratic piece of legislation. When National is returned to Government, we will repeal it, and I will be proud to stand in that Government that repeals it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ELet me run through the reasons why this bill should not pass. Number one: there has as yet been no attempt by any Government member to actually outline any real problem that demands this bill be passed. Usually, when we pass legislation in Parliament, we look for what\u2019s known in the law as a mischief. What is the mischief? Why are we here? What is the point of the legislation we are debating? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere is no mischief when it comes to proportionality in Parliament. MPs who dissent from their parties and leave those parties and are seen to have done so in an unjustified manner are thrown out at the next election. Taito Phillip Field was kicked out of the Parliament when he left the Labour Party. Gordon Copeland was binned from the Parliament when he left the United Future party. Likewise, those MPs who are seen to do so for good reasons\u2014Tariana Turia and others\u2014are returned. There is no mischief. The democratic process can handle MPs leaving political parties. This point was made repeatedly by numerous submitters to the select committee, including by the Law Society. This point has been utterly ignored by members opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second point: the bill is illogical, and I\u2019ll explain why it\u2019s illogical. By-elections change proportionality during parliamentary terms, but by-elections are allowed after the passage of this bill. Winston Peters and Andrew Little, the Minister of Justice, like to go on about the sacrosanct principle of proportionality as determined at an election time, except by-elections change proportionality between elections. The Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill is utterly silent about the changing of proportionality because of by-elections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWinston Peters, in 2015\u2014sadly, for the people of Northland\u2014for two years, won the seat of Northland. National went down one seat in Parliament. New Zealand First went up one seat. I did not hear the Rt Hon Winston Peters campaigning up and down the country to have a list MP from New Zealand First taken away from him and another list MP given to the National Party to restore proportionality as at the 2014 election. Why? Because he doesn\u2019t actually believe that proportionality is some sacrosanct principle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe reason we are passing this law is because he cannot control his caucus, and he wants to be able to give himself the force of a quasi-constitutional statute to control his caucus. It is a disgrace. The bill is illogical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThirdly, the bill is unconstitutional. I don\u2019t mean unconstitutional in the sense of it violating some written constitution\u2014we don\u2019t have one of those. I mean it\u2019s unconstitutional in a number of respects, but I want to emphasise how it\u2019s unconstitutional in the sense that it is not being passed with bipartisan support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Nick Smith has pointed out on numerous occasions, there is a convention in Parliament that when we make changes to electoral law, it is done on a bipartisan basis. We have an unwritten constitution in this Parliament. We have a Parliament that is sovereign. Parliament sets the law for how elections should be held. We subcontract out a little bit of it to the Representation Commission, but, actually, we write the rules. The Justice Committee conducts an inquiry, Parliament considers how elections should be held in this country, and we determine when electoral vacancies occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBecause of that enormous power, Parliament needs to reflect and consider very carefully when it changes things like the Electoral Act 1993. It is a constitutional statute, yet here we are, again, considering a radical change to our electoral law, and it is being forced through by a bare majority of three parties, one of whom we know does not support the bill. We are in this extraordinary situation where the Greens openly admit they do not support the legislation, yet they will vote for it anyway. So we have a majority of Parliament opposed to a constitutional statute, but we are passing it anyway. It is a constitutional outrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe fourth point: this bill violates human rights\u2014in particular, freedom of speech and freedom of association. There was no section 7 report issued by the Attorney-General on this piece of legislation. There should have been. Let me make it clear for the House. The Attorney-General failed in his responsibility to issue a report to Parliament advising that the bill violated the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990. We had this curious situation where the legal advice that he relied upon was refused to be released. For many, many years, Attorneys-General have released the legal advice provided to them by Crown Law or the Ministry of Justice and made it freely available. The Attorney-General has waived privilege in making that advice available. That did not occur in the case of the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill. That is a disgrace. It should have been. The advice that the Attorney-General told us about was that the issue was finely balanced. Well, \u201Cfinely balanced\u201D is the understatement of the century.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is arrogate enormous power to party leaders, and it has an enormous impact on the free speech of MPs and the freedom of association of MPs. That point was made repeatedly by constitutional experts to the select committee. Throughout the process, the Minister has disparaged them. He has treated those concerns with contempt. He has described them as only self-described experts\u2014people with PhDs in human rights and doctorates of law from universities all around the world, including the Alma Mater of the list MP for the Green Party sitting in the Chamber, Golriz Ghahraman. He has disparaged them in a quite unfair way\u2014I think in a disgraceful way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis bill does violate human rights, and I want to briefly touch on the issue raised by the Law Society, because one of the points the Attorney-General did make was that the bill is justified and consistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act because the judicial review is available and we\u2019re not taking away the power of MPs to seek review through the courts, like Donna Awatere Huata did\u2014except, as the Law Society made comment repeatedly to us in select committee, that is actually disputed. If you read the Prebble v Awatere Huata decision, three of the judges on the Supreme Court expressly doubted, in their comments in the judgment, as to whether or not judicial review was available. They also expressly doubted whether or not parliamentary privilege could be overridden in investigating why an MP could be booted out of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe reason why Prebble v Awatere Huata actually proceeded was because all parties agreed to essentially set those issues aside so that there could be some resolution, but the point remains none the less. And, of course, that was before the passing of the Parliamentary Privilege Act 2014, which puts in place much more restrictions on the invigilation that the court can conduct when it comes to judicial review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo there is a real issue about whether or not judicial review is available. Have we had any engagement on that point by Government parties and by Government members? No. Did they support any amendments that were put up by the National Opposition to make sure judicial review was available? No. The self-proclaimed human rights expert for the Green Party, Golriz Ghahraman, turned up to the select committee for a good couple of hours and didn\u2019t bother with the rest of it, and yet she has not taken a call throughout the debate. The human rights experts in the Green Party and all of the people she corresponds with around the rest of the world will hang their heads in shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe fifth point: the bill is not supported. It\u2019s not just not supported by the Parliament; it is not supported by those who know what they are talking about. We did not hear one submission in favour of the bill on the select committee. We did not hear one quality submission in favour of the bill at the select committee; quite the contrary. We heard the former co-leader of the Green Party Jeanette Fitzsimons come and speak to the committee and talk about what a disgrace it was. We heard constitutional scholars that the Minister likes to disparage come and tell us in no uncertain terms that the bill should not proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe are here only because of one man and because a supine Green Party has decided to put their lust for power over their principles that they like to bang on about so much. Well, the next time the Greens get on their high horse and tell us about human rights\u2014tell us about how New Zealand must stand up for human rights internationally\u2014we will laugh. We will scorn them. We will treat those remarks with the contempt they deserve, because on this day, more than a year after the election of the Government, we are sitting here in a Parliament and we\u2019re going to pass a tawdry, unconstitutional, obnoxious piece of legislation because of one man and one supine party. It is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022afecbd26fc32498895abb00baa300fa6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afecbd26fc32498895abb00baa300fa6\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m quite pleased to be the final speaker in the third reading of the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill. I\u2019m pleased because I am a Labour Party list member of Parliament. I\u2019m a Labour Party list member of Parliament, and I thought I\u2019d just have a quick little look over what the number of votes were that I actually accrued in the last election. I gave it my all. I tried my best, but, unfortunately, I fell short in the East Coast electorate. There were over 14,000 people that voted for the Labour Party on the East Coast\u201414,000 people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019d say\u2014and, you know, as much as I wish it wasn\u2019t the case\u2014I think that of those 14,000 people that voted for the Labour Party, probably about 13,999 of them didn\u2019t really know who Kiri Allan was, and that was an ancillary matter. What was important to them was the values of our party, and what\u2019s important to people is that when you cast your vote and you cast it for a party, that you are getting what you bargained for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EI want to just reflect for a moment on the purpose of the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill\u2014in particular, new section 55AAB in clause 5, which is the purpose of the amendments. It is to enhance the public confidence in the integrity of the electoral system. Now, most people aren\u2019t going to be sitting in their homes debating the nuances of how their parliamentary electoral system operates, but what we do know is that every three years, the good folk of New Zealand come down to cast their votes: one for their party, and one for the person that they hope they will have represent them in this here House. I don\u2019t think that it crosses the minds of most people that actually, for me, as a list member of Parliament, at any old whim I could, for example, go and join my colleague over there, David Seymour, whose party stands in absolute contrast to my own party\u2019s values. So what this bill does, effectively, is it tidies up an anomaly in our law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EI must pay homage to the Hon Andrew Little, who has had to steward this bill and has sat in this House for about 21 hours listening to the Opposition filibuster left, right, and centre. I can only imagine, which is why, actually\u2014we\u2019ve heard all the debates, and we\u2019ve heard the sorrow from the Opposition about how our constitutional arrangements are in flux and our electoral system is going down the drain, but the reality is that most ordinary New Zealanders want what they bargained for. They want to know that when you cast your vote in a wee box once every three years, you get what you said you were going to get. So that there is about enhancing the public confidence of our electoral integrity system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ENow, I do want to just briefly touch on\u2014because I do think it is important, and the member opposite, Chris Bishop, who spoke just prior, did make reference to it\u2014the range of constitutional experts that did take the time to submit, and I do want to thank them for their submissions. There were many former colleagues and friends. I want to reflect, though, on probably two things briefly. First was the Attorney-General\u2019s New Zealand Bill of Rights Act report. They considered section 14 and section 17\u2014that\u2019s freedom of expression and freedom of association. Applying the Hansen test on every single one of those limbs he determined, as did the Solicitor-General in 2005, when he had to consider a very similar piece of legislation before this House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bacee23e6d9f4b13a88a0ef2f70facf5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ba2347b9a5841fc82594ad2ae2f34a9\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: No, that absolutely correct\u2014Sir Terence Arnold in 2005. They both fell in the same place, which is that, yeah, it is a fine balance. It\u2019s a fine balance striking the balance between trying to achieve the objectives of an electoral system that has integrity\u2014counterbalance those with those rights. But both pieces of advice\u2014both then, over 10 years ago, and now\u2014erred on the side that under a finely balanced test, the objectives of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act were met. After we listened for, like I said, 21 hours of debate in committee stage, or just over\u2014I think it was 21 hours and 20 minutes to be exact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5b1cfe58bef4b4a8118acc367478ab8\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: 22, and you didn\u2019t take a single call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383bf4dbc6d5461887619325a2778568\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I thought it was 21 hours and 20 minutes. But, anyway, I might be 40 minutes shy. We have heard the ins and outs of where the Opposition stand. Look, they gave it their best effort, but the reality is that most New Zealanders want an electoral system that they can trust. As a list member on the Government\u2019s side, I can only applaud Minister Little and those that have championed this bill. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022114c26cfac0f4904bce6b79e6db13307\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f46778faa80b423c85e6ea18dba88c52\u0022\u003EEducation Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d34396c670ab4f7293fd6cd06f868e37\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000501\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 20 September.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a06b4eaa08824fb2933aefeb10a862ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a06b4eaa08824fb2933aefeb10a862ea\u0022\u003EDENISE LEE (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to continue where I left off on the Education Amendment Bill (No 2). One of the points I was making when I was last speaking was my confusion, and this side of the House\u2019s confusion, that these particular changes weren\u2019t absorbed into what I would call the \u201CEducation Amendment Bill (No 1)\u201D. It\u2019s not called that, of course. But, in fact, this week has been confusing for me, whether I was going to speak on this on Tuesday or Wednesday and now here it is Thursday\u2014what a confusing week. The way the House has been run or \u201Cmis-run\u201D if that\u2019s a word\u2014it has been a real shambles this week to try to understand what\u2019s been up, what\u2019s been out, with urgency, with extended hours, and 15 minutes a pop here. It has been a real dysfunction junction\u2014there are no two ways about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EI also want to pick up where I left off on two words I used, \u201Cconfusion\u201D and \u201Chypocrisy\u201D, in regard to one primary purpose of this particular bill, and that is in regard to giving the Minister of Education direction over the Education Council. So what this bill does is it requires the council to consult the Minister prior to making changes to teacher qualification requirements or registration criteria, and, of course, the Minister\u2014him or her\u2014can issue a direction relating to the Education Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003ENow, the hypocrisy with this is\u2014and everyone on the Education and Workforce Committee will know this\u2014there was huge, vigorous debate, the rallying cry from the other side of the House, around the independence of the Teaching Council and how much they should be honoured and adhered to and looked after and debated and nurtured, and here we are in the first reading for this bill which does the opposite. It gives the Minister the ability to issue a direction to that same council. How can you have that on the one hand and increased independence on the other? How can we have gone through hours of debate, nurturing and fostering this so-called independence, when here we are doing the exact opposite?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EI query why a Minister of this Government feels the need to do this, and I also would like to ask the question: where\u2019s the trust in the profession? Where\u2019s the trust in the Teaching Council\u2014because we now know it\u2019s named the Teaching Council. And I\u2019d also like to ask a third question: how do we think the unions feel about this? Will the unions look forward to another Government of another hue and will they still continue to like the fact that a Minister can issue a direction in relation to the Education Council? Let\u2019s see what the unions say in the select committee process, should this pass. I\u2019ll be sitting there listening very closely to what they might say in regard to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EI would also like to point out that we had two members on the other side\u2014Mark Patterson and Jamie Strange\u2014when we were in that Teaching Council debate refer to what they said was a conspiracy theory around, on the one hand, giving independence and, on the other hand, taking it away. Well, again, here we are this afternoon doing exactly what they called a conspiracy. It\u2019s not a theory; it\u2019s a reality, it\u2019s a fact, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing here right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EI will touch on two other points that the bill brings into play. One is making student safety a registration criteria for private schools. So what the bill does is it amends the Education Act 1989 to include a new registration criteria for private schools, which requires that they are a safe physical and emotional place for students. Now, while we here on this side of the House would support logical and reasonable criteria and limits around student safety\u2014of course we would do that; that\u2019s just the right thing to do\u2014it\u2019s not clear to us at all what has led to the Minister progressing these changes. It\u2019s not clear at all why these changes have been drafted into this initial take on this bill. We\u2019re potentially supportive of having the Education Review Office provide greater scrutiny, but we\u2019re also very cautious around how it looks like cancellation of registration of private schools will become\u2014with the passage of this, should it take place\u2014too easy. Why and how has that come about? Where is the evidence that this is actually an issue for private schools? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003ENow I want to switch over to the regulatory impact statement in regards to this point, where it states that there is \u201Cno evidence\u201D\u2014this is in the impact statement\u2014\u201Cof harm arising from the status quo, unless changes could result in unnecessary cost.\u201D So you\u2019ve already got a caution there. It says in the impact statement there is \u201Cno evidence of the level of bullying and other forms of physical and emotional harm that it is better or worse in private schools.\u201D So we\u2019ve got some serious caution being laid here\u2014again, something else that we\u2019ll be paying attention to through the select committee process, should this pass. If there is no evidence for this, where have these changes come from? What is behind the Minister\u2019s intention to insert this in the No. 2 bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EThe third thing that I want to touch on is the cohorts around 5-year-olds. So whereas the National Party allowed changes for a small group of students to start school a maximum of eight weeks before their fifth birthday\u2014we saw that as allowing flexibility and choice; it was a pragmatic and a practical, flexible arrangement for parents; it made sense\u2014this particular bill allows cohorts but only after they have turned five. Where\u2019s the flexibility in that? It\u2019s not there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EThe other thing that this bill does is, basically, take backwards communities of online learning. There\u2019s going to be reduced options for students currently enrolled in distance learning and much reduced options around accrediting providers offering that valuable online tuition. These changes are unnecessary and we do not support them. We\u2019d like to know why they\u2019re here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u002208430569db054082ab4f64eac68be98a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208430569db054082ab4f64eac68be98a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand this is a split call\u2014Jamie Strange, you have five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022f45784926b604e9bb10386e4f456e603\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f45784926b604e9bb10386e4f456e603\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Assistant Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to take a call on this bill. This is another excellent bill around the area of education. Building on the trilogy of the Education (Teaching Council of Aotearoa New Zealand) Amendment Bill, the national standards bill, and the Education (National Education and Learning Priorities) Amendment Bill, we now have the Education Amendment Bill (No 2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EWhile the Opposition flounders around conspiracy theories on this bill, this Government has been busy this week passing a number of bills through this House, bringing about positive changes for New Zealanders. Some of the key objectives of this bill are: (1) to ensure that the Education Council of Aotearoa New Zealand ensure that their decisions on matters relating to the teaching profession are made within the context of Government policy; (2) to require private schools to be safe places for students; (3) to remove provisions due to come into force on 31 December 2019 that will enable communities of online learning to be established, while the future of online learning is considered in the context of a wider education sector review; and (4) to ensure that school boards cannot adopt a cohort entry policy that enables children to begin school as part of a cohort before the age of five.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to elaborate on a couple of these points. The first one I\u2019d like to talk about is starting school before the age of five. The previous regime put in place a series of legislation which would enable the option for children to start school at the age of four. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eef613c95ce4095a4cb6ce269d31e90\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Ever heard of the word \u201Cchoice\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc3998af95ae448490f40f11aa4dc149\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Mr Brown, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d77c066fb94d4f79af20280831677770\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: Now, the question here is, is the age of\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022691af2677bea49b6bf0eb7218fa1b965\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! If you have an interjection, may it be witty\u2014but not a continuous barrage as we\u2019re getting from the member on that side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a3149df4393415a985d5462e07134fc\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: If the member would like to listen carefully, I will elaborate on some of these key points. So, the question is: is four too young? This Government believes four is too young. Let\u2019s have a look at what age some other countries have their young people starting in school. Let\u2019s particularly look at the Scandinavian countries, who, without any doubt, regularly achieve at the top of the international field: Sweden, age 6 to 7; Finland, age 7; Norway, age 6; Denmark, age 6. We are undertaking a review of the education system to see what the right age might be, but we are convinced that four is absolutely too young. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EOne of the key aspects here is around the importance of play: creativity, social skills, being ready for formal education. We believe the age of four is far too young to be sitting down in the classroom with formalised education. As Fred Rogers once said, \u201CPlay is often talked about as if it were a relief from serious learning \u2026 Play is really the work of childhood.\u201D There\u2019s lots of learning that takes place within an environment of play\u2014the environment of creativity. We believe that the age of four is far too young to start in a formalised schooling system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThe second point is around online learning. There\u2019s certainly a place for online learning at school. But the issues we have around here are that if we take the teachers out of the education system and people can just learn at home, solely online, the students miss out on key social aspects and face-to-face aspects with the teacher. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThe final point is around school safety. Bullying is a real issue. It\u2019s important that all schools, whether they be public or private, have strong standards around protecting their students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThis is another excellent bill in the education field. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0b2a2f013844fdabc4df80765631b1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0b2a2f013844fdabc4df80765631b1a\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. I have to say to Mr Strange that, far from being an excellent bill, this is another appalling one. This is a particularly bad week for a Government that has passed some shameful legislation and, in this case, some pointless legislation that goes against the best educational interests of the children of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on the final point that my colleague Denise Lee was making in her excellent contribution. I\u2019m a February baby, and I started school when I was 4 years old, as part of a cohort entry. No, I don\u2019t blame my long-suffering mother for wanting to shove me out the door at the earliest opportunity; looking back, I\u2019m sure I\u2019d have done the same thing. But I am glad that I did, because I started school with a group of friends, many of whom remain friends to this day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI recall my first day at school very clearly. It might not surprise some members to know I got into trouble on my very first day at school. I\u2019m sure that pointed to a subsequent political career. I was sitting in the front row in an assembly, and the principal was up on stage pontificating. I didn\u2019t find him as fascinating as he evidently did, and I took out a plastic aeroplane that I\u2019d got out of the Weet-Bix or the Corn Flakes packet that day, and I started flying it around. The next thing, I was summoned up on to the stage to atone for my sins and to be publicly humiliated. But the person who was most humiliated was my older brother, who was sitting near the back of the assembly that day. It\u2019s his birthday today, so I feel it\u2019s a particularly appropriate time, bro, to say, after all these decades: I apologise for the shame and humiliation I caused you that day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EBut there is an important point to make here. As our society changes, for many parents this is a necessity. There are many single-parent families, where the parent who is the caregiver has to go out to work, and being able to send a child to school\u2014perhaps just a few weeks before the child turns five\u2014makes a huge financial difference. That\u2019s the point that Denise Lee was alluding to before, when she pointed out that we\u2019re only talking about a few weeks; it\u2019s not as if we\u2019re sending a child who\u2019s three. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI have to say, personally, I\u2019m not a fan of sending four-year-olds to school, but I think for Jamie Strange to say it\u2019s an appalling thing to do flies in the face of reality for many New Zealand families. I would hope that we would look at the welfare of the children, and the needs of the parents to provide for their families\u2014and I salute all those parents, the length and breadth of this country, who are doing just that. Let us never forget: this is a fabulous country, where the vast majority of parents love and care for their children and want only the very best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EHere we have another ideological provision that will mean that no child will be able to start school before he or she turns five, regardless of the conditions that may make that the most appropriate thing for that particular family. When the last National Government was in office, we introduced that opportunity entirely to give that choice and flexibility to parents. I cannot believe that the Labour Party and their coalition partners are taking that choice away from parents when the evidence is clear that this is what is in the best interests of many of those families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to turn my attention to\u2014because there\u2019s much in this bill that I oppose\u2014is the illogical decision to repeal the start-up of communities of online learning. This flies in the face of technological advances, and it\u2019s another blow to the regions, in particular from the New Zealand First Party, which claims to be a champion of the regions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWhen one looks at who communities of online learning can really benefit, in many cases it\u2019s people who live in isolated rural and provincial communities. It\u2019s also the children who are attending schools where there is a small roll and there\u2019s no ability for those schools to employ teachers in the school to deliver the subject that the child\u2014particularly at secondary level\u2014may wish to be studying. I think of subjects like Mandarin, but there are so many languages now where it\u2019s really desirable for us to be able to offer them to New Zealand schoolchildren but it\u2019s not economic for a single school to do that. So it makes perfect sense to suggest that online communities of learning should be able to deliver those programmes in a way that is able to be accessed by a child from north of Kaitaia, down to Stewart Island and the Chatham Islands, or wherever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI know the Government will say, \u201COh, well it\u2019s all part of a review of Tomorrow\u2019s Schools.\u201D But why do it when it is such an illogical thing to do? Why do it when it\u2019s actually a cruel thing to do to the children who benefit? I have only a five-minute speech, so that\u2019s all I can cover, but those are two very important reasons why I oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u002263885c5d24684577bc99de85777898fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263885c5d24684577bc99de85777898fe\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. Well, I, for one, am pretty happy to be standing here and taking a call on what I believe is actually a really effective bill. It is going to address a few things that I don\u2019t think were thought-out that well previously. I want to talk, firstly, about the requirement for private schools to be safe places for students. I don\u2019t think that there\u2019s any underlying evil here, that\u2014as we\u2019re hearing from across the House\u2014it\u2019s going to be the start of having the ability to close these private schools down if they don\u2019t adhere to this. I actually think that in this day and age, when we know that our teen suicide rate is one of the highest in the OECD, it\u2019s really important that we ensure that our students feel safe, physically and emotionally, at school. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI note that one of the members opposite said previously\u2014I think it might have been Denise Lee\u2014that there is no evidence to say that whether you\u2019re in a private school or a State school means that you\u2019re more likely to be bullied or not. I think that, regardless of that, it\u2019s really important that our schools\u2014regardless of whether they\u2019re State or private\u2014have to ensure, to the best of their ability, that our students are kept safe from physical and emotional harm, particularly with the rate of bullying. I was actually really surprised when I read that private schools weren\u2019t required to have something in place that ensured the safety of their students, and I\u2019m not too sure how many parents out there would be aware of that, too. So, yeah, that is something that was quite a surprise to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI want to move on to the communities of online learning (COOL). Now, we know that it is really important to have really high-quality online learning, and I do acknowledge that there are those who might live in remote places that do need to participate in some form of online learning or correspondence schooling. But I think the risk here, if we went to these, I\u2019ll call them COOLs\u2014and it was raised by several educational professionals\u2014is that we run the risk of having students who have additional learning needs, who perhaps have ended up being pushed out of public schooling or private schooling, ending up having to participate in these COOLs, and depending on their situation, it\u2019s not necessarily the best place for those children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ESo I think that by repealing this, it does allow us the time to consider what the future of online learning systems might look like in New Zealand. I think that we need to be really careful in that space and take a good look at it so that we do take a pragmatic approach to ensure that when we do provide these sorts of options for schooling for our children, that actually they are the best and will stand up to any sort of criticism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the cohort entry for children over five years. By repealing this, again, we\u2019re not\u2014there is no underlying evil here. I think, you know, it goes against best practice, actually, to allow children under the age of five to start school. And I still think that, by the change in this legislation, it does still give schools the ability to have a choice, by allowing cohort entry twice a term. So it\u2019s still allowing choice for parents and schools; it isn\u2019t taking it away. I think it does help those children develop friendships and keep their friendships from early childhood education or prior to schooling, moving through. So it\u2019s not actually taking that choice away, just ensuring that the age stays at five for children to start school. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00226cddf035c33e4b9f81f98b22266519c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cddf035c33e4b9f81f98b22266519c2\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Assistant Speaker, I rise to speak on this, the Education Amendment Bill (No 2). Here we are with another \u201CBack to the Future Education Bill\u201D. This is not about moving the education system forward; this bill is about getting rid of recent innovation, because this is a Government who knows what it is against but not what it is for. The member who has just resumed her seat, Jo Luxton, told us that the Government needs more time, and isn\u2019t that just a theme of the way that this Government is approaching policy in New Zealand\u2014wherever in doubt, form a working group, put a review together, and give it more time. Well, that is not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s look at what this bill actually does. The first thing it does is it fixes up the problems that the Government created with the last education bill we passed in this House, which was to change the Education Council to the Teaching Council. And what the regulatory impact statement for the bill we are discussing today, the Education Amendment Bill (No 2), says is that: \u201CIn making changes to the process for appointing the Board of the Teaching Council, the Education (Teaching Council of Aotearoa New Zealand) Amendment Bill will reduce government\u2019s ability to protect the public interest in the work of the Council through membership of the Board. This increases the risk that the Council could exercise its functions in ways that do not align. Given the breadth of the Council\u2019s functions, this could have implications for the safety of children and young people, teacher supply and diversity, the quality of teaching, and government\u2019s fiscal commitments.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo what that is, for me to translate, is a very clear statement by Government officials that the legislation we passed in this House but weeks ago put at risk the public safety of children and young people. And it did that because it overturned what currently exists with the Teaching Council\u2014it changed it\u2014out of the Government\u2019s desire to have political utu and change the name of something, and, in doing so, it put at risk the public interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo here we\u2019ve got the tidy-up. Here we\u2019ve got the tidy-up bill to tidy up the mistakes that were made recently, and here we have the tidy-up which is to introduce new measures to give the Minister the ability to direct the Teaching Council. So isn\u2019t this an interesting situation? We have members opposite getting up and speaking passionately about how they wanted to give teachers autonomy, they wanted to change the council to give teachers more ability to make their own decisions, and then, two weeks later, here we are discussing a bill which seeks to give the Minister a new power to direct the Teaching Council on matters of Government policy. And it does that for the very serious reason that there would otherwise be risks to the public interest, as defined by officials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo what I would say to members opposite is that I think it\u2019s time that you went and spoke with the Minister and said, \u201CLook, let\u2019s stop it with the political utu. When we do these bills in the House that are just getting rid of things that National did, what it does is it creates more complications, and we find ourselves back in the House doing other things in the following weeks.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo what we also see with this Teaching Council decision-making section of the bill is that it allows the Government to direct the Teaching Council in various ways. And we would ask why it is, in particular in this bill, that it is made explicit that these Government policy statements that are now able to be issued will not be disallowable instruments\u2014that is, that they will not be available to Parliament to scrutinise. That is a question that we will be able to address at further readings of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo what else does this bill do? Well, this bill also takes a totally retrograde step when it comes to communities of online learning, because here we have another innovation that the previous National-led Government put forward. The National-led Government could see that we are in a time of digital revolution, where the ability to create online teaching resources is greatly enhanced and better than it has ever been in our history. We have, for example, the Khan Academy, and if anyone listening hasn\u2019t seen the Khan Academy and the great work that it can do to teach maths to people all over the world, I encourage you to go and have a look on YouTube right now. What we have seen is innovations like that that allow children and young people, via a digital device, to be taught from distance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENow, of course, this is not ever going to replace the great work that happens face to face in classrooms and that must continue, but there is a place for online learning, particularly in a country where we do have provincial areas that are not served by large schools with vast staffs and subject selection and in a country where often students\u2019 choices are restricted because there isn\u2019t the subject choice and curriculum choice that there would be at a larger school. So what the National Government recognised was that it was time to allow for communities of online learning\u2014to allow for new institutions to grow up and to provide services to schools. And this was a regime that was being embraced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EBut no\u2014Labour, in this bill, says, \u201CWe\u2019re getting rid of it.\u201D And what\u2019s the reason for getting rid of it? Well, I\u2019ve looked through the bill\u2019s purpose statement. I\u2019ve looked through the bill, and the best explanation I could find is to provide \u201Cfurther time to consider the future\u201D. I would suggest to you that just putting off these things is not good enough. The New Zealand public have a right to expect that that party opposite would have come into this Parliament with a plan for the future. If you\u2019re sitting in the seats of Government, you should already have a plan for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EInstead, what we have is, particularly, Te Aho o Te Kura Pounamu\u2014the Correspondence School, but also the virtual learning networks which currently exist, now put under incredible pressure by this bill, because they now don\u2019t know what their future looks like. What officials warn us about in the regulatory impact assessments is that, in fact, these virtual learning networks are under pressure to grow but may disband if arrangements become too difficult to manage. So that\u2019s potentially the impact of removing the communities of online learning. Not only does it take away potential for innovation in future; it jeopardises the innovation that already exists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAnd why? Oh, because the Government needs more time\u2014and I\u2019d suggest also because the Government is intent on overturning every single innovation that National brought in to try and lift the achievement in our schools. Whether it\u2019s partnership schools, whether it\u2019s communities of online learning, whether it\u2019s the way the Teaching Council functions, this Government is taking us back to the future in education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhat else does the bill do? Well, we\u2019ve had quite a lot of discussion in this debate today about cohort entry for children over five years old. We had an interesting discussion from Jamie Strange about Sweden and children not having to learn till they\u2019re six and the virtue of play-based learning, and all of those things are interesting, but none of them are reflected in this bill, because this bill doesn\u2019t say, \u201CHere\u2019s the innovative new way we\u2019re going to support young people to learn.\u201D This bill doesn\u2019t say, \u201CHere is the new way that we\u2019re going to encourage learning to happen in new entrant classes.\u201D No, it does none of that. All it does is it says that the cohort entry policy that\u2019s currently in place is going to be tipped upside down and changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAnd mark my words: what is going to result for New Zealand parents is confusion. It is incredibly confusing for me to even step you through right now what\u2019s going to happen, but I\u2019m going to give it a great go. Until 1 January 2020, schools\u2019 current cohort entry policies may remain or they may be terminated, but after 2020 they have to have new policies which are enabled by this bill, and that will require more consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhat is the impact of this for an everyday mum and dad? The impact is they don\u2019t know when their child\u2019s going to start school, because the Labour Government is so intent on changing things that National put in to give parents choice and to empower schools that, in fact, all we\u2019re left with is a very confusing situation where parents do not have a clear idea about when their child can start school. One thing they can be clear on: they can be very clear that not all children in this country are guaranteed any more to be able to start school at age five. It used to be a guarantee that when you turned five you could start school. Well, that is no longer a guarantee, thanks to the measures in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo we have those three measures, and then we have the measure around private schools\u2019 registration criteria. I want to be very clear that schools providing a safe physical and emotional place for students is important. It is essential. But forgive me for asking whether or not giving the Minister of Education the broad discretion to close a private school is a good idea when we have seen that very same Minister of Education prepared to show callous disregard to the students in partnership schools whose lives have been transformed by those schools, whose well-being has been enhanced, and whose learning has been enhanced. That Minister was prepared to close those schools, and so I question whether he is the kind of Minister that should be getting expanded discretion for the future. This bill is, simply, a step back to the future. Where are the new ideas? You have none. Have some vision for education instead of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00228e60eb9d149f4deb915f11aa3c2c6305\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e60eb9d149f4deb915f11aa3c2c6305\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u00223a4a2e03432249ddb7a61f0f2a27a38b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a4a2e03432249ddb7a61f0f2a27a38b\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be the final speaker for this first reading on the Education Amendment Bill (No 2). However, it does probably come to mind that it must be about 5 o\u2019clock on Thursday of the fourth sitting week, because I\u2019m sitting here and I\u2019m wanting to engage with the Opposition\u2019s position on what is actually a fundamental reform of our education system. It has grown out of, I guess, a collective movement by educationalists, young people engaged in the education system, experts, and all and sundry particularly engaged with the education conversation\u2014that they\u2019ve wanted to see some fundamental changes. And this bill is a part of doing just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ESo, when we\u2019re listening to the great things that will occur as a consequence of this bill\u2014for example, ensuring that private schools are required to ensure that they are providing a safe place for all students and their staff\u2014I think for most ordinary New Zealanders who sit back and reflect, if you have your child enrolled at a private school, they should be entitled to a safe and secure environment like every single other student is that is enrolled at a public school. Again, this Government\u2014this side of the House\u2014is merely fixing up absolute anomalies and, in some parts, some atrocious, I guess, misalignment of values. And this bill goes towards that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EAs we have been sitting here\u2014and I\u2019ve been sitting here for the last, well, few hours listening to the Opposition\u2014it doesn\u2019t matter what we put up. It doesn\u2019t matter. Even where it fundamentally makes sense\u2014like ensuring that all schools in New Zealand are safe places for all students\u2014the Opposition is calling doom and gloom and that this is the end to everything that\u2019s positive about New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe last speaker spoke about political utu. Political utu, I guess, I would say, may just be awaiting a party that sits here and negatively espouses rhetoric day in and day out without actually putting up a vision for Aotearoa New Zealand\u2014sits here and plays politics with our kids, sits here and plays politics with our schools, sits here and plays politics with our communities, and won\u2019t even have the gumption to come to the party and say, \u201CActually, guys, all right. Yep, we are in Opposition, but that makes sense. It makes sense to ensure that all kids, regardless of the school that they\u2019re enrolled in, deserve to be in a safe and warm environment.\u201D So, without taking up too much of this House\u2019s time, it\u2019s an absolute pleasure to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c0d7a273bcc743d28f00b7fc9f649afc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education Amendment Bill (No\u00A02) be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 56; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000558\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Education and Workforce Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df667a6018a04989a0c360d22dc49a09\u0022\u003ECommerce (Criminalisation of Cartels) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e2ce215955ac4f4abbd21da4f3ab3c2c\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002239749d84227548fa8379f290375ebe6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239749d84227548fa8379f290375ebe6c\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Commerce (Criminalisation of Cartels) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe Government is committed to protecting consumers and honest business from serious cartel conduct, and, while most businesses operate fairly and comply with competition law, there are some in New Zealand who, unfortunately, engage in cartel conduct. This hampers competition in our markets and results in higher costs for New Zealanders, reduced choice, and lower quality goods and services for ordinary New Zealanders. Cartels are the most egregious form of anti-competitive conduct and undermine the efforts of honest business. Criminalising cartel conduct sends a clear message that we as a Government and we as a country will not tolerate unjustified interferences in our markets. Importantly, it will serve as a strong deterrent to deliberately engaging in cartel conduct and will make firms better consider the competitive impacts of their actions and operations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe Economic Development, Science and Innovation (EDSI) Committee received 20 written submissions and 11 oral submissions from interested stakeholders and parties on the bill. I would like to thank all of those that took time to submit on the bill. I also want to take the opportunity to thank members of the committee for their work on this bill. It is regrettable that the committee was not able to agree on changes to enhance the robustness of this proposed criminalisation regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe submissions on the bill mainly focused on the targeting of the new criminal offence, the impact on businesses, and the exceptions and defences available. The voices and perspectives of the business community and experts are important to this Government and help to ensure that New Zealand has an honest business environment which is conducive to encouraging competition and innovation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESome submitters believe that the offence is not sufficiently targeted to serious cartel conduct. However, the bill distinguishes criminal liability by reference to the actual intention of the defendant so that the person must have intentionally engaged in price fixing, restricting output, or allocating markets and no exemption applies to the conduct. In this way, the bill only criminalises cartel conduct where the person intended to interfere and distort the market. The offence is designed to ensure the necessary level of culpability by the defendant so that merely entering into an arrangement that contains cartel provision is not automatically construed as intention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere was also some concern over the impacts of criminalisation on pro-competitive business activity. However, as I mentioned previously, honest business should have no concerns in relation to this bill. It will not chill legitimate business conduct, and I will ask the Commerce Commission to assist by preparing good guidance from business as well as supporting collaborations by providing businesses with clearances on arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for a defence to the criminal offence where the defendant believes that their conduct was reasonably necessary for the purposes of collaborative activity. There are also exceptions to the offence for joint-buying agreements, vertical supply contracts, and international vessel-sharing agreements. Between now and the committee of the whole House, I will look at whether the defence should be expanded to other exemptions in the Commerce Act and whether it should be based on reasonable grounds. I also intend to look at the setting up of a specialised panel to prosecute these offences, the categorisation of the offence, and other minor changes to ensure the effectiveness and appropriateness of the proposed criminal regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ETo ensure that businesses have time to become familiar with the proposed changes, the bill provides for a transitional period of two years from enactment until the criminal offence comes into force. This will provide businesses the opportunity to use this time to familiarise themselves with the new offence and ensure that current activities are legally sound. They already should be doing this, and the conduct to be criminalised is already unlawful under the Commerce Act\u2019s civil regime. Businesses are already able to voluntarily apply to the Commerce Commission for clearance of their proposed collaborative activity that, if granted, would provide immunity from the civil and criminal regimes. The two-year lead-in gives them time to do so if they wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAs the Minister leading off the debate, I don\u2019t have the opportunity to rebut some of the comments that I anticipate from the other side of the House, but I would say that this piece of legislation extends a criminal regime over a civil regime that already exists. The criminal regime that we are implementing through this bill was part of an earlier piece of legislation, which, I believe, passed through on the last day of the previous Government. So what I\u2019m saying is that the previous Government enacted the bill with a criminal regime but saw fit to take that out. And I\u2019m assuming that we will hear about the possible chilling effect of this for business. As I have said, there is nothing to fear for good, honest businesses\u2014the majority of New Zealand businesses. But, in anticipation that there will be speakers following me who will talk about the dread that will fall upon the markets if this piece of legislation is enacted, I just want to remind the other side of the House of some of their own words when criminalisation was part of the earlier legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to point to the former Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, Jacqui Dean, who said the introduction of criminal sanctions against cartels via this bill \u201Cwill bring New Zealand into line with many of its trading partners, including the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia. This will allow New Zealand to play a more active role in the global fight against hard-core cartels.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s the current commerce spokesperson for the Opposition, Brett Hudson, who said, \u201CI am delighted with this bill.\u201D\u2014when it included the criminal regime\u2014\u201CIt is clearly taking on the evils, the worries, and the concerns around hard-core cartel behaviour, \u2026 it does address the negatives of cartel behaviour, and it is important that it does so, because if it did not, we could end up with that terrible situation where the tiny minority\u2014the nameless and the faceless\u2014are controlling outcomes, delivering things that \u2026 many [people] do not want.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo my question for the anticipated criticism of this piece of legislation from the other side of the House is: what\u2019s changed? What happened from when you first introduced that bill to when you lost your bottle and removed the criminalisation from the piece of legislation? What happened? Because you were talking tough at the first and the second readings, and then something happened. Something happened along the way and they lost their nerve and, oops, the criminal part of the regime disappeared. If it wasn\u2019t for the help of this party on the last day of the previous Parliament, they wouldn\u2019t have even got the civil process through this House, because it was passed on 17 August 2017\u2014the last day that this House sat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not the committee stage, but my question to the other side of the House is: what happened? Why did you lose your nerve and remove this? As I say, honest business has got nothing to fear here. If you were so committed to making sure that you were going to crack down on hard-core cartel behaviour, and criminalisation was the way to achieve that, why did you stop it? We are committed to making sure, as we said on 17 August 2017, that if there is cartel behaviour, we discourage it, and, if it happens, that we bring it into the criminal regime. I think it would probably be the chair of the EDSI Committee who will go first, so maybe he\u2019s the one that wants to answer for the former commerce Minister as to why the previous Government lost their nerve and decided to take it soft\u2014to go soft on hard-core criminal behaviour. I want to know the answer to that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud to bring this piece of legislation to back up what the previous National Government lost its nerve and couldn\u2019t do, and we\u2019re going to make sure that we support honest business and competition, because, at the end of the day, it means better services and better prices for New Zealanders, and I want to know what the previous Government had a problem with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00226cb75c6aa34741f4bbb5a0e326a14784\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cb75c6aa34741f4bbb5a0e326a14784\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Assistant Speaker. And all of that coming from the party that say too many people are in prison. If I can say, it was good to hear the Minister saying that he\u2019s having a fresh look at elements of this bill prior to it coming before the committee of the whole House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EIf I were to respond to some of his questions, I would simply come to some elements of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee report which we placed it in, and that is to say that submitters who opposed the bill stated there is no evidence of a problem with the current regime. The current regime is working very strongly, very well, and has very strong deterrents to the cartel behaviour. I think all of us in this House, this side included, want to see cartel behaviour eradicated from the New Zealand economy and from business. There\u2019s nothing worse than cartel behaviour that undermines good, open, competitive business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EWe all understand that competitive business is very important not only for ensuring that prices are well set and products are of high quality, but the intention is that through the process of competition between firms, which drives those firms to lower costs, improve quality, and develop better products in the competitive market, those benefits are passed through to consumers. We want to have an economy where consumers can receive those good prices, good products, new products, and innovation, in a very good and timely way. We do not approve of or support or go soft anywhere, in our view, on cartel behaviour where those rival firms agree not to compete with each other by fixing prices or restricting output or allocating markets between themselves. Cartels, what they basically do allow is firms to raise their prices above the competitive level without fear of losing customers to rivals, and it\u2019s not good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EWe also understand that New Zealand is a relatively small economy, and there are appropriate times and places where there is collaboration. I guess this is our point. Our point is that those collaborations\u2014and many of them have clearances from the Commerce Commission\u2014are essential. For example, when it comes to building motorways, there\u2019s probably not one firm that can do it all, and they have to collaborate with one another in order to supply to the Crown or to regional councils or district councils the ability to offer that service and deliver that product. There are those nuances of decision making around what is appropriate and what is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EOur concern, essentially, is that the criminalisation of cartel behaviour\u2014when many submitters said they cannot identify a problem, and where, in over a decade, in Australia there\u2019s only been one prosecution, in an economy quite significantly larger than New Zealand\u2019s\u2014what it does is it creates a concern and hesitation around whether companies can cooperate together. And, of course, to go to the Commerce Commission for a clearance is not a cheap exercise. So what our concern has been is that directors of those companies would prefer to withdraw, would prefer not to work together, and that would start to stifle economic activity and opportunity in our country. So it\u2019s a matter of, actually, just getting the balance right. It\u2019s a matter of recognising that our current regime has sufficient deterrence, where, if there is the conviction of a cartel activity or behaviour, those fines can run into the tens of millions of dollars for companies, and $500,000 for an individual. We consider those deterrents to be strong enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003ESome submitters raised concerns that the definition of \u201Ccartel conduct\u201D amended in August 2017 is untested in its application. They were concerned that this would mean a lack of clarity in the new criminal offence, which parallels the civil defence. So even though this committee looked at this bill and, in good faith, we worked together with our colleagues across the House to improve it, our basic position is that we don\u2019t support it. And, no doubt, when it comes to the committee stage, the Minister will introduce his thoughts and perhaps some amendments to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003ECriminal sanctions have the potential to undermine the economy by having what the Minister identified, from our point of view, as a chilling effect on pro-competitive collaboration. That\u2019s, essentially, the position that we take, and the international evidence that criminalisation reduces the incidence of cartel conduct is actually weak. There is no clear case to support the introduction of criminalisation to cartels. That is our view. Some actions which are not criminal in nature might be caught within the criminal sanctions. Criminal sanctions could result in this ultra-cautious decision-making at the board\u2019s table, as I said before. And so, as I reiterated, we believe the current criminal regime for cartel conduct provides sufficient deterrents and sufficient sanctions to protect businesses and consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThe Commerce Commission may also apply for banning orders of individuals from holding management positions for up to five years. That\u2019s one of the sanctions that are currently available. In fact, there was an award of $7.5 million against a body corporate and of $100,000 against an individual for the five-year prohibition against management. So I would argue that the civil sanctions are, in fact, a very strong deterrent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EI have to say that we oppose this bill. We believe that the measures in play and in place are sufficient, and we also believe in the good work of the Commerce Commission to enforce those. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcf8762f70fc4ffb9b167cf688541c2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcf8762f70fc4ffb9b167cf688541c2d\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Assistant Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to this Commerce (Criminalisation of Cartels) Amendment Bill. Look, it\u2019s an interesting time in the House when the Opposition speaks to legislation they created and, in supposed good conscience, cannot support it now, simply because this side of the House is progressing legislation they wrote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad22877fb77843dd90d224cfca97c878\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: I think you got the wrong end of the stick, old boy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287f2a15a479f4e74974f73dec091e235\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no, I am not going to apologise. I remember spending months with the members in select committee in the previous term. For months, we were, literally, on the same page in terms of progressing this piece of legislation, because, for such a long period of time, the criminalisation element of this legislation as presented to the House now was in the draft of that bill during that process. And so there was great, and quite unanimous, conversation from both sides of the House, as it were, in the select committee process during that process, and it was constructive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EMr Young spoke about\u2014what did he say? Something about dampening cooperation between firms. Actually, in this legislation, and I think credit is due to Mr Goldsmith, there is specific reference to enabling and encouraging cooperation where it is for the benefit of the end consumer, because it is collaboration for that benefit rather than the good old-fashioned cartel collusion and coming together, where businesses are seeking to break down market equilibrium, create that dead-weight loss in it, and to undermine the benefit to the consumer. So there is a difference. This legislation recognises that, and so Mr Young is drawing on excerpts that do not apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EIn fact, I\u2019d take the opportunity to quote some of the previous contributions from the National Opposition. I quote Simon O\u2019Connor: \u201CThis [criminalisation of cartels] is ultimately a bill at the heart of what the National Party believes is a way forward for our economy.\u201D That is probably true, so I\u2019m not sure why it\u2019s such a problem for the National Party today. Brett Hudson: \u201CI am delighted with this bill. It is clearly taking on the evils, the worries, and the concerns around hard-core cartel behaviour.\u201D And yet the contributions from the other side, dare I say it\u2014I\u2019m not one to use bad language in the House, but \u201Cflip-flop\u201D comes to mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EActually, there\u2019s no need to go into defining \u201Ccartel behaviour\u201D and what this bill achieves, because this House knows full well that those quotes confirm exactly the merit of this legislation. It\u2019s unfortunate to hear the contributions from the members opposite. This is actually logical and needed legislation. It will not dampen cooperation and good behaviour of corporates in New Zealand. We do need that. We have seen evidence of it in the New Zealand market, but we need to make sure that where there is cartel behaviour, we are able to act not only in a civil but in a criminal pathway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003ESo, Mr Assistant Speaker, this is a short contribution, but it\u2019s pretty important to voice our approval of the legislation. Thank you, sir. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef20b5f7763a474496fc7f60bcdf715e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef20b5f7763a474496fc7f60bcdf715e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. Fletcher Tabuteau, the previous speaker from New Zealand First, was a little bit confused about this, saying that we\u2019d introduced this bill. This is a new bill introduced by this Government in order to undo what a previous bill that came through the House did\u2014which was update the competition regime in regard to cartel behaviour and bring in an authorisation programme and a way to better manage and, effectively, deal with cartels\u2014which had not taken the step of criminalising cartels, and this Government is determined to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s lots of arguments. There\u2019s different countries around the world. Some criminalise cartel behaviour; some don\u2019t. For the history of New Zealand commerce, we haven\u2019t criminalised cartel behaviour, but what we\u2019ve done is treated it as a very serious civil matter. So what we\u2019re talking about here is different companies secretly price-fixing or arranging their affairs so as to collude together in order to rip off consumers. Everybody agrees that it\u2019s a bad thing, but throughout New Zealand history, we\u2019ve regarded it as a matter which should, if caught, be punished severely with fines, and we\u2019ve seen some very large fines, of up to $7.5 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, what is being proposed by this bill is that those fines are not enough of a deterrent and that we should, potentially, throw the directors of companies and executives into jail as well. There are arguments both ways. My view, as Minister of Commerce when this legislation was coming through the House earlier, was that, on balance, I don\u2019t think it is a useful thing to add yet one more way for public company directors to go to jail if they get their business judgments wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo what you\u2019re balancing here is two competing desires. One is that it\u2019s obviously so important for this country and for consumers in this country to have a robust and effective competition framework so that New Zealand consumers get the best deal that they can and so that companies can\u2019t work together secretively to undermine the benefits of free trade and good commerce. But, on the other hand, what we need to also consider is a basic philosophy around regulatory restraint. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIf a Government doesn\u2019t think twice about, as I say, finding a new way to send directors of companies to jail if they get their judgments wrong, then it all adds up over time, because every year, there\u2019s another five or six different ways that you can go to jail if you get things wrong, and, as a result of that, there is a cost. That cost is that directors of public companies move from being very cautious about how they do things to becoming ultra-cautious about how they do things, and they take fewer risks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn this area, what you\u2019re dealing with is a whole lot of collaborative arrangements that companies can quite legitimately go into, such as the classic example\u2014being international shipping\u2014where it doesn\u2019t necessarily make sense to send five ships from China to New Zealand one-fifth full. It makes more sense for those five competitors to work together and send one full ship. So it is much more efficient for the whole market and for everybody if those different owners collaborate together in order to work out what\u2019s the most efficient way of getting stuff between China and New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo there are pro-competitive collaborative arrangements that people go into, but there is a line that can be crossed where they become anti-competitive. That depends on the nature of the market and what\u2019s going on, and arrangements that may have been pro-competitive one year can suddenly become anti-competitive the next year if conditions have changed. So it\u2019s not quite as straightforward and clear-cut as people might seem to think. So it does lead inevitably to the level of risk that company directors are prepared to take and the consequences of being ultra-cautious, as I said, as opposed to being very cautious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo New Zealand has avoided the criminal regime until now. Some of the much larger economies in the world have criminal regimes, and I do think it is relevant that New Zealand\u2014a place where more than 90 percent of businesses are small businesses and don\u2019t have the ability to avail themselves of the authorisation procedures and so forth that we have established, which are highly expensive. To go along to the Commerce Commission to get an authorisation on a pro-competitive arrangement is a very expensive procedure. It might work quite effectively for a huge economy such as the United States\u2019; not necessarily so practical here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo, anyway, another element of all this is the way in which this Government operates. Just before giving the speech I thought to myself: well, this is an important bit of legislation which has quite a significant regulatory effect on the way that New Zealanders conduct business in New Zealand, so I wonder what the regulatory impact statement has to say on all this. So I asked for the regulatory impact statement\u2014it\u2019s not on the Table. Lo and behold I find it here. Here it is: regulatory impact statement: \u201CCriminalisation of Cartels\u201D\u2014oh, dated 26 August 2011. So that was some work done by the predecessor to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), whoever it was, back in August 2011\u2014and I\u2019m reading it. It\u2019s\u2014I wouldn\u2019t say\u2014pathetic but it\u2019s a very cursory summary of the details in this regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8302b2487fa4dc18591bf6613258072\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Who was the Minister? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee779a0e86748838daa85969a6adc21\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, this was back in the first term of the previous National Government. So this Government, this Government here today in 2018, has introduced this bill, making no effort whatsoever to get their officials to look at what the issues are today. Since this happened, we\u2019ve had seven or eight years of experience of what actually has happened with the criminalisation regime in Australia; you know, not very much. There\u2019s a huge amount of work that\u2019s been done in this area, and this Government hasn\u2019t availed themselves of any of that. They haven\u2019t asked MBIE to update their regulatory impact statement or to seriously consider it. Of course, that should come as no surprise to anyone in this House, because that\u2019s how they operated with the very significant oil and gas decision that we\u2019ve been debating this week\u2014possibly $8 billion. The decision was made before any Cabinet consideration, before any analysis had been done by officials. And that\u2019s the cavalier way in which this Government seems to be operating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe problem with all that is that collectively this kind of attitude to regulation and business legislation, a cavalier attitude, an ideological attitude\u2014one that announces decisions before the analysis has been done. That kind of decision making all contributes to an undermining of confidence in the way that decisions are made in this Government, contributing to the falling business confidence that we see across this country generally, which, of course, this Government regards as junk. They regard the falling business confidence survey as junk and that is because they don\u2019t have much sympathy or understanding of just how hard it is for New Zealand businesses\u2014competing internationally in a tough old world against all kinds of headwinds\u2014to stay in business. Every day, it\u2019s a highly competitive attitude, and this Government is quite happy each day, each week since they\u2019ve been in Government, to add costs to businesses, such as petrol, such as minimum wages\u2014you name it\u2014assuming that it will make no difference to their international competitiveness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESecondly, without any thought or full consideration, it\u2019s quite happy to amend competition law to make the consequences of incorrect decisions much worse. Like I say, I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s the end of the world to bring in this legislation, because there are plenty of countries that have criminalised cartels, but the conclusion that we came to as a Government in the last term was that on balance we think the long-established, very substantial civil regime with very significant financial fines for cartel behaviour was just as effective and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022544bb49dd62c4b1eba1834fdf4231f9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022544bb49dd62c4b1eba1834fdf4231f9c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00224643f2ded3e4438687f36dd6a88a9504\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224643f2ded3e4438687f36dd6a88a9504\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. Well, thank you for that penetrating analysis, Mr Goldsmith\u2014the future MP for Epsom. He did use the words \u201Con balance\u201D on several occasions, and I think, actually, that was good, because this is a question of balance, because cartels are something of a conundrum. At one end of the spectrum, we know that if there is a cabal of businessmen in a smoke-filled room doing deals about how to raise prices together, that\u2019s wrong\u2014deeply wrong. At that end of the spectrum, it should clearly be criminal. But at the other end of the spectrum, we may have a group of perfectly decent business people who are putting their heads together as to how they can lower their costs to make a more efficient business. At that end of the spectrum, life gets a lot more difficult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EHere the balance is well struck, because this is not blanket criminalisation. If we do see an agreement between businesses to knowingly move up prices, or to divide up the country so they don\u2019t compete with each other, it\u2019s a serious wrong. It\u2019s not just some cheeky business shenanigans; it\u2019s actually defrauding ordinary folk of their wealth. It may only be a penny at a time, but, actually, millions of dollars are involved, and that\u2019s serious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhere the collusion\u2014and it is collusion\u2014doesn\u2019t have that same moral taint, then it\u2019s quite right that it shouldn\u2019t be criminal, and that\u2019s what the civil penalties are for. It may well be that the arrangements are seriously wrong\u2014they\u2019ve been put in place; they are cartel arrangements; they are agreements that lessen competition\u2014but they don\u2019t have the underlying intent, that there is a genuine error. In those kinds of cases, those arrangements won\u2019t fall foul. There is a clear recognition in this legislation that collaborative arrangements are permitted. Collaboration that lowers the input costs of a product is permitted. They are, in fact, to be encouraged. So that\u2019s an expressed carve-out. As the future member for Epsom Mr Goldsmith noted, the line between those two is not always clear to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOne of the other things is there\u2019s been a lot of talk about economics here, and how it will have a chilling effect and so on and so forth, but, at the end of the day, there is a sociological, a criminological, and a moral question to be asked here. That question is: what do we do about serious moral transgressions, the intentional stripping of wealth? We can\u2019t just say, \u201CIt\u2019s tricky. The line\u2019s hard to draw, so we won\u2019t draw a line at all.\u201D We\u2019ve got to stand up to that. And when we do have a serious cartel arrangement, it is deeply dishonest. It is moving wealth away from consumers and towards dishonest businesses, and I know the members on the other side of the House don\u2019t want to be seen as supporting dishonest businesses. We all want to be seen to be supporting honest, competitive businesses who do the right thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, in this situation, even if it was not going to change the economics of it, there is a moral reason to step in here and say, \u201CWe will not tolerate the wrongful taking of wealth\u2014the wrongful and knowing taking of wealth\u2014from one party to another.\u201D Having said that, we know here that if there is a collaborative arrangement that breaches these rules but the wrongdoer had a reasonable belief that that wasn\u2019t the case, then there is no criminal offence. For that reason, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u002298ee262ca46d4a22bb3529d1b343ca9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298ee262ca46d4a22bb3529d1b343ca9b\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to take a very short call, as the bells are about to actually ring, but I shall try and make some headway into my 10 minutes, which will obviously continue in the next sitting period. As a member of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, which deliberated on this bill, I\u2019d like to acknowledge\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf078e799cda468896bbbfc24923eda8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf078e799cda468896bbbfc24923eda8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member. This debate is interrupted and is set down for resumption next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 16 October 2018. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20180927451218cdf4384395b35d2f7ed49edc03000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"