"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022384d722d76564585b5e79d04e16c768a\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 25 OCTOBER 2018\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002257ec51fcc3694294aed276bb47c1739e\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 25 OCTOBER 2018\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c308754a16874153937508132d8eadfc\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022edecc4479f194cafb37cac0de83a1b90\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2f561ce210d4de38200dc3f3374dfe6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2f561ce210d4de38200dc3f3374dfe6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Legislation to be considered next week will include the Child Poverty Reduction Bill, the Crown Minerals (Petroleum) Amendment Bill, the Residential Tenancies (Prohibiting Letting Fees) Amendment Bill, the Family and Wh\u0101nau Violence Legislation Bill, and the Taxation (Research and Development Tax Credits) Bill. As notified to the Business Committee, there will be an extended sitting on Thursday morning. Wednesday will be a members\u2019 day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f709b563fc8d4248a4e534870048212b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f709b563fc8d4248a4e534870048212b\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I wonder if the Leader of the House can tell us if it\u2019s the Government\u2019s intention to advance with some urgency legislation to give effect to the Prime Minister\u2019s announcement yesterday with regards to regional fuel tax no longer being Government policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022aee2afd67c1549bc9c97fa9225b0379e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aee2afd67c1549bc9c97fa9225b0379e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, that wasn\u2019t the Prime Minister\u2019s announcement yesterday, and also there is no need for legislation to give effect to the Prime Minister\u2019s commitments yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227dcde305ced34e02b88824419e7a2bb8\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cedfa7c90fca420084904e77b44d9f9d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5 to Minister, 24 October\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6a9244bafdd46d38349c027d9ee0266\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6a9244bafdd46d38349c027d9ee0266\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to correct an answer I gave yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a1b4170093d4a9faadbcaf0f6ff338a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that? [Interruption] Order! There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e1015bb26364114bad023a9f78645f1\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday, uncharacteristically, I erred. When answering a question on behalf of Minister Phil Twyford, I was asked when I became\u2014and I was speaking as if I was him\u2014aware of the Prime Minister\u2019s clarification that there would be no additional regional fuel taxes while she was Prime Minister. As I was speaking on behalf of the Minister, and not myself, the correct answer should have been that I, speaking as the Minister, was aware of this clarification yesterday morning. It was a matter of mixed personalities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c717d0729ac549328c4227aebef3c6fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c717d0729ac549328c4227aebef3c6fa\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. A personal explanation is, generally, to clarify a situation. What\u2019s still not clear here is the time line. Now, is Mr Jones going to elaborate a little more on that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b68c8bd851894349bc718ee934b76bc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b68c8bd851894349bc718ee934b76bc5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. No, he\u2019s not. I think he made it clear. Yesterday, he said, \u201CWhen the Prime Minister said it in here.\u201D Now, he has said, \u201CIt was in the morning\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1021347b4a84e289c749fcaf49a784d\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: He said \u201Cyesterday\u201D, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c8aaf1a73ab4f8e86138300af46bbdf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday morning. In fact, let\u2019s get that absolutely clear now: when he was saying \u201Cyesterday\u201D, did he mean yesterday, or yesterday from yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f810e43c34b1423b9a5568055eb647cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f810e43c34b1423b9a5568055eb647cc\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E For absolute lucidity, I am referring to yesterday, today being Thursday, and the period of time I am referring to is at some point during the course of yesterday\u2019s morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7bd92217e344da9aa1e431aa78f1acb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7bd92217e344da9aa1e431aa78f1acb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Is that clear now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ffa02ee3170a439d87df10cc55d91da8\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002264d5860e0f4c44ec8868c3ede4229ae2\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f6fc5e5fb5a494da8183ee970d46e12\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022e02f0b61334e4f30bb62290ad7232eab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e02f0b61334e4f30bb62290ad7232eab\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What investments has the Government made to support low and middle income New Zealanders to meet the cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e97e7a8afc80471c9f40eb6bcb4f1317\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e97e7a8afc80471c9f40eb6bcb4f1317\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government\u2019s investments were, in part, in response to what the Salvation Army pointed out in its State of the Nation Report in 2017, where it said, \u201Cit is clear that the benefits of \u2026 recent \u2026 economic growth have not been shared across the board, or trickled down, as the theory would have it.\u201D The Government agreed with this, and that is why we made significant investments through our 100-day plan and Budget 2018 to support those who have struggled the most with the cost of living. Our $5.5 billion Families Package is lifting the incomes of hundreds of thousands of New Zealand families and helping tens of thousands of children out of poverty. We have received many positive comments about this, including one from a budgeting agency who described the winter energy payment, part of that Families Package, as a \u201Cgodsend\u201D for their low-income clients. Along with our investments in housing, health, and education, I am extremely proud that this Government is focused on helping those who need it the most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ca3b8c82c254e729a8c7bfb83b3ea72\u0022\u003EWillow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government\u2019s overall economic strategy help low and middle income New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f297950abc254a978c7a54c55109edc1\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Under our economic strategy, we\u2019ll ensure that all New Zealanders get a fair share of the country\u2019s economic growth. The previous drivers of growth, such as housing speculation and population growth, have actually resulted in pressure on infrastructure and public services. Our plan is for an economy powered by innovation rather than speculation, and one that meets the needs of the present without compromising our ability to do so in the future. Our economic strategy will see an economy that is more productive, more sustainable, and more inclusive, and where growth will improve the well-being and living standards of all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b82ce2b2c5da4b18b5c6ef07ad421419\u0022\u003EWillow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: What alternative strategies has he seen for assisting low and middle income New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c04dfab50cb14dcf96e7b02f4c0686f8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On coming into office as Minister, I inherited the settings for a very different strategy that would have disproportionately benefited the wealthiest New Zealanders, giving the top 10 percent of earners\u2014those who need it the least\u2014collectively, a benefit of $440 million. We decided that this was not focused on low and middle income families, so we reversed those changes, and now 384,000 low and middle income families will be better off by an average of $75 a week by the time this is rolled out. On this side of the House, helping low and middle income families by providing targeted relief, lifting wages, and shifting the economy to one in which they can all share in the benefits of growth is a project, one year on, that we are very proud to have started.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b5587e5e38e4e7e9360e4d340324e97\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec2188edfcb24df897693b595615b36b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec2188edfcb24df897693b595615b36b\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all the Government\u2019s actions and statements in relation to the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002200932d6c06934102af87f9210589457c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200932d6c06934102af87f9210589457c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were made and undertaken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d66eb5fca55f4609b3fd159637a2283d\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister discuss with him her concerns about the extension of regional fuel taxes to other regions prior to her announcement in the House yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ce752b769824266a1e04184e3052a24\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister and other Ministers have discussed often over this year the question of the way in which we fund transport infrastructure around New Zealand. I\u2019ve enjoyed being part of those discussions and, indeed, have spoken about them in public previously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217b5446a27ed464db951cd53513a6b18\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: So what were the concerns the Prime Minister discussed with him about the extension of regional fuel taxes prior to yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e532fc33e3243a4bc61f0a5b09a015f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: What we\u2019ve discussed is that there are many ways of funding transport infrastructure. In Auckland, the Auckland Council proposed, and the Government agreed to, a regional fuel tax. I can give the member an example of when I was in Hamilton in February and I was asked about this, and I made it quite clear that a fuel tax for Hamilton was not on the agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4a3b8ffc7a642a4a9f75f5a180103a9\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I listened very carefully, and I had asked for some indication of what the concern was about it being used in other regions. The Minister talked about transport funding and having ruled it out for Hamilton. I didn\u2019t hear anything where he attempted to address the reason they had concerns about extending it to other regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022073450dc96d44ffeb1ff42b1d23168d0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I thought the Minister said that there are alternative ways of funding it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e83c3ff4651240b19e46512aeb35201f\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister express those concerns to the Minister prior to the legislation being passed which legislated for exactly the situation the Prime Minister ruled out yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022769ec945d61341d289ae6af60933ecf6\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, what this debate is about is how we fund transport infrastructure across New Zealand. The legislation says that in this term of Government there will be no other regional fuel taxes. The Prime Minister has made that fact absolutely clear. That\u2019s an important thing to do when the Leader of the Opposition is spreading false and fake news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f374d0d347c4841b7b38e808d4c3fb8\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister expressed concerns to him about any other aspects of the Government\u2019s programme that might indicate that more backflips are coming?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed462d33a7474322854f63aa4dc34e22\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister is always urging Ministers to move faster and further to correct the mistakes and the underfunding of the previous nine years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9d7eb7df5364045b610d09fe4677ed8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Just to be clear, Minister, is it the Government\u2019s position that despite the numerous calls for the fuel tax to be spread to other regions, we are staying staunch with our commitment to leave it just for Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227881567562ea42f8a064c5d0dd2008e3\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. I\u2019m not entirely clear what the Opposition\u2019s stance is now on how they\u2019ll fund transport infrastructure, and we once again wonder where the Opposition\u2019s fiscal stance is. It\u2019s very hard to see today how they would fund transport infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d6e8b85d39a4346a0464764f7064afa\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Is the reason that the Prime Minister yesterday ruled out any new regional fuel taxes while she is Prime Minister, despite having just legislated for exactly that, because the Government has now had to accept that it\u2019s the one fleecing New Zealand over power prices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc3e63f6d31d4a1cb75f4797cf4c2792\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member might have meant fuel prices rather than power prices, but no, the reason the Prime Minister did that was because it was time to clarify in response to the misinformation being spread by the Leader of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229550933ed9594a7281787dc66d459a00\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d901976610e34df2923f71818f55a4ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d901976610e34df2923f71818f55a4ea\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Does he stand by all his statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u002212c9385c92e24fca9eac91d1bc827f2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212c9385c92e24fca9eac91d1bc827f2c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Malo ni. I stand by my statements and by my actions in leading record investment in a modern, safe transport system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222ca7f1e38834467a724c45926b6c060\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Regarding his statement in his corrected answer to the question yesterday, \u201CWhen did he, as Minister of Transport, know about this change of policy?\u201D\u2014i.e., earlier that morning\u2014whose idea was it to rule out further regional fuel taxes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe80771557fd44b7b13722d0ef6057b9\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister phoned me early yesterday to seek my views on whether\u2014in light of the Opposition\u2019s scaremongering and baseless misinformation\u2014it was time for a clarification of the Government\u2019s position to make it very clear to people that there would be no further regional fuel taxes under her prime ministership. I agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efe4ee785c654cca92efe23ceb8184c0\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: What exactly is \u201Cscaremongering\u201D or \u201Cfalse information\u201D in the assertion that the Government may consider a regional fuel tax outside Auckland when allowed in 2021 by their own legislation\u2014something that he as Minister pointedly never ruled out before?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddd821aa3f5e4f0b835213423ad221dc\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it was scaremongering and misinformation for the Leader of the Opposition to go around claiming that the Government was in secret talks with Wellington councils to implement a regional fuel tax. It was never going to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d6b1cc273c44b7e9f8cfddff0825004\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s changed in the past six months since his earlier answers where he refused to rule out extending regional fuel taxes beyond Auckland after this parliamentary term to yesterday\u2019s new policy that it will never happen as long as the Prime Minister is Prime Minister\u2014assuming that\u2019s a longer period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2cbfdca21b24dd781e1f7f9111d4382\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s changed in the last six months is the plummeting level of confidence and the growing desperation of the Opposition\u2014that they\u2019re willing just to make things up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a007ca1d6c18498187610a222f4a59f2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How did this matter arise when the Mayor of Wellington says his council never ever asked for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239f1c0ef0cca4530ab792bc8a5a2009d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m baffled as to how this idea could be circulated by the Leader of the Opposition. The Mayor of Wellington said there were no discussions going on about a regional fuel tax; I ruled it out. The only person who seems to publicly believe that this was something worth talking about was the Leader of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eccd4605a174a2bb4b0677d52abd3c9\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How does he square his statement on RNZ this morning, \u201CTo be fair, you know, we\u2019ve never had a plan to have additional regional fuel taxes.\u201D, with his statement in a letter to the Mayor of Hamilton: \u201CIf in the future Hamilton City or the Waikato region wish to seek a regional fuel tax, I would encourage you to engage with officials at the Ministry of Transport. Officials will be able to provide guidance for any future applications, including the matters that will need to be considered and addressed to increase the likelihood of an application being approved,\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277ea696f335745c9bbe9d48a033d1212\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: We welcome discussions about the different options for actually addressing the infrastructure deficit that we inherited after nine years of that Government. I welcome discussions with councils about how we do that, and for the last nine years, those councils have never had a Government willing to talk to them about these issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea99a01a37834ba092c8f0405dbe2d71\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That noise from that side is unbearable. We understand\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296ff1aaf9f21481b99fedf8efc591d33\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume his seat. The three members who interjected will now stand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f810ce95313467996f2668d0574c9a4\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0bdaad7b2af43f6a81e45b18cb82d42\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286e135b8a8e64143ac0495a245bc1bc8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I said three when I saw four.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afc4a376e9264a97a7cd2deb9b681101\u0022\u003ELawrence Yule\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211e2e36ecbc54b59b2e3c6d38ad65979\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223307c84fec6944cfa99ce5028f34467e\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a05a7071075f4bc6ae9c85e361c840e3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: To repeat, the fact is that that level of noise is just unbearable. It\u2019s inexcusable. Everybody understands that this is a place where people are entitled to voice, with some noise, their level of dissent, but that is just a screaming, disorganised rabble, and they should be stopped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295a6ec07dbf7466eb2833f06fc310703\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to thank the member for his advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba04b8bac55e47f792004242e1ec9018\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it the case that it was very much his intention to introduce other regional fuel taxes in 2021 if he had a chance, and that he and the Prime Minister changed their minds because they\u2019ve finally woken up to the fact that Kiwis are sick and tired of being fleeced at the fuel pump by this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edd778368826469085cfd25cd92c776a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022963f938a18cb422d9bcaa856b5cd0c57\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Housing and Urban Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd2792a5de2b4a07af0a23d779c300fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd2792a5de2b4a07af0a23d779c300fc\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing and Urban Development: What progress, if any, has been made towards the Government\u2019s KiwiBuild homes targets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00222fc4d6d85868435298ccac33a7192ea3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fc4d6d85868435298ccac33a7192ea3\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Minister of Housing and Urban Development):\u003C/span\u003E This morning, I announced that the ballot will open next week for the first KiwiBuild homes to be built in the Waikato: 175\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204fae8131f9d46beaf15d06e7e300f8b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! David Bennett, yesterday I probably should have named you for your behaviour. What you will let this Minister do now is at least start his answer without facetious interjection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218f8c4061e1b4ce1976747a3aee45cb3\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: This morning, I announced that the ballot will open next week for the first KiwiBuild homes to be built in the Waikato. One hundred and seventy-five KiwiBuild homes will be built at the Lakeside development in Te Kauwhata. This announcement follows Monday\u2019s announcement of 18 KiwiBuild homes in Ockham\u2019s Tuatahi development in Mount Albert in Auckland. These homes will provide an excellent start for young families who are currently priced out of the dream of homeownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227616c32f91c94c56a2c69a622612c71d\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: When will the first Lakeside homes be completed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3b5bfcfcaed41adb230324413c89fcf\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The first 10 KiwiBuild homes to be balloted are two-bedroom, modern, stand-alone homes, all fully landscaped, with off-street parking and a home appliance package. Initial works are already under way, and construction of these KiwiBuild homes will be completed by Christmas 2019.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5e785be1d8f4ff1b592baa364c3a273\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: When will the Tuatahi homes be completed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223252a615aad470995f288730d8f240f\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The 18 Tuatahi properties available via the KiwiBuild ballot consist of nine studio apartments, six one-bedroom and three two-bedroom apartments, ranging in price from $435,000 to $600,000. Construction of these apartments is under way and due for completion late next year. While the Tuatahi development began several years ago, this is an example of how KiwiBuild creates efficiencies and accelerates the construction of quality affordable homes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022642bd7e7f24a47a1ab6a8687c6501ed8\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: What will these homes mean for young Kiwi families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022106c3704d46d46ada67bd52841d4f22a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: A generation of young Kiwis with good jobs are priced out of homeownership. They made good choices but they still cannot afford the security of their own home. KiwiBuild is building homes for families of all shapes and sizes, right across the country, restoring the dream of affordable homeownership to families who traditionally would have expected to own their own home, and extending that same dream to many more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022410bfa416e8e4f32892d4290797e13be\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Social Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u002292e86ecb0d1f44199f6e3ec12130b3a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292e86ecb0d1f44199f6e3ec12130b3a7\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: Is the figure of 4.3 percent which, according to the Ministry of Social Development quarterly benefit statistics is the percentage of the working-age population on the Jobseeker Support benefit, higher or lower than it was a year ago when it was 4.1 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f65ab58a13b3469294d5d43d31fe1210\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f65ab58a13b3469294d5d43d31fe1210\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Associate Minister for Social Development)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Social Development: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. On behalf of the Minister, I can confirm that those figures are correct and that there\u2019s been an increase by 0.2 percent. This is offset by a 2 percent increase in the working-age population in New Zealand from June 2017 to June 2018.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d173093ae5ba48619d2a28edd06c3572\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the percentage increased?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7ba80577e9444b9a86abf25f1208a92\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: As mentioned in the previous answer, the increase in the population\u2014for example, in Auckland\u2014of the working-age population in Auckland has grown by some 34,000. Therefore, it\u2019s quite natural that there would be an increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba96a5cca86b4a87acddc7f68ad7d43e\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The primary question on notice was a percentage of the working-age population. So the population comments that the Minister made aren\u2019t relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd2bad2d347c4b5b8beb48cd4e7c9b66\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think one of the things that we do know, and it\u2019s been established over a long period of time, is that Speakers will not take responsibility for the quality of the answers. The member got an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206f20c7e744f42de891446dce302adb7\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: How many more people are receiving the jobseeker benefit than a year ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ed73ec624ec4fd0abd29ded947e484b\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. It may be of interest to the member that the current unemployment rate is 4.5 percent in the June quarter, whereas, under the previous Government, in the June 2017 quarter it was 4.8 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca70b8e4680348808dfe40bb986dd8cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That did not address the question. The member might like to ask the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209e24e6b1f944819ba9c537906f91963\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. How many more people are receiving the jobseeker benefit than one year ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217a8bfe0f6e24e999dc28511b06d05d1\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I currently don\u2019t have those figures on me right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224347d59bc7734db6bb5ab73ac5c4a7b3\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Why are there 9,000 additional people on the jobseeker benefit while the unemployment rate has dropped?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaf2e79796454f999750b87d43e07255\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve already mentioned the population increase in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7f142f3e78c4116bf242c404c444e36\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: In addition to the jobseeker benefit statistics increasing, why has the number of benefit advances increased by 27,000, and the hardship grants for food increased by 20,000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290ea1801d5304e41b17731332d2ba207\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Because we know that, for far too long, communities in this country have suffered under the previous Government. We\u2019ve made it very clear that we want to make sure that all of those who are eligible receive fair and correct entitlements. That has meant that there have been resets that have made people come to Work and Income to make sure that they are receiving fair and correct entitlements. With regards to hardship, I can say that the housing pressures have put pressure on families. Families have come in and sought the assistance that is available to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2d6a8853e73461085855f9995f5657c\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Why has there been an increase of 9,000 people on jobseeker benefits while her Government has reduced obligations and sanctions by 35 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022239c68273cc64beba1fbbe55a063dc2e\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: We acknowledge that under the last regime, which had a punitive approach towards those who are in receipt of a benefit with regard to sanctions\u2014we want to work with these people to make sure we can give them meaningful employment opportunities. That means that they come in, they work with our people, we manage their aspiration, and of course we match it to an appropriate job to allow them sustainable employment opportunities into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002265bb4d1d30eb4e8ebb6f03a24d79c884\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Workplace Relations and Safety\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9d42e082d874fd79980fe7b33eec7df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9d42e082d874fd79980fe7b33eec7df\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety: Does he stand by all his statements and actions in regards to workplace relations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002231db667d34c74c6ebf6efe19dfbe8c70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231db667d34c74c6ebf6efe19dfbe8c70\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety: On behalf of the Minister, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b774d566d74cafb77d78ddc5b9c41b\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement yesterday \u201Cwe\u2019ve made good progress in this House on the Employment Relations Amendment Bill,\u201D, and, if so, does he define \u201Cgood progress\u201D as the Government ignoring the voice of nearly all businesses at the select committee stage of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0c799848b114527889878cecc358666\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and this Government has good quality\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022690fd09943214a0d839b0d728c3231ca\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! No. Sorry, I\u2019m going to rule the question out. It\u2019s not an area the Minister\u2019s responsible for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022249c970e8ba94ea0b62d619c8569b202\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Well, does not the Minister have responsibility for relationships between trade unions and businesses? I would have thought that the question was in order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6d25bd74d4e4643b3d4ea418bb6eff3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, absolutely, but he doesn\u2019t have responsibility for changes at a select committee that either did or didn\u2019t happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a4cdbcd79634baabc26afca1f965095\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Could I rephrase the question, Mr Speaker? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278f46255d38342c9bcd78a23cec93587\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can have another question. I\u2019m not giving you an extra one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd287e1965b745658ade60dc295e914e\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that a gulf has emerged between the business community and the trade unions over the last 12 months, and, if so, why? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022870c614047654c42a40cdc4d9622c6ca\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: There has been a gulf between workers and employers since the time of the Tolpuddle martyrs that, in the course of history, sometimes is closed and sometimes widens. The challenge for Governments of any country where there are relations between business and workers is not the size of the gulf; it\u2019s the quality and strength of the bridge to bring parties together to get fair, good outcomes for everyone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294c7f279cea049f988cf72d3529c2cdd\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the organiser at Unite union Joe Carolan\u2019s criticisms that their workers hold \u201Chuge anger\u201D and that the Government has not done enough over the last 12 months to improve their lives and that this is why they have threatened a \u201Cbig round of strikes in 2019\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa735ebfb9db421c9c3272e1a64bb83a\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I know Joe Carolan very well and regard him as a friend. He is sort of the Jim Larkin of the New Zealand union movement and a firebrand at that, and he has his view. What I do stand by is the actions of this Government to bring back justice to workplace relations in this country, so workers can look to their employers with a sensible framework to get fair pay increases, fair pay and conditions, and safe workplaces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b23999066f264013918be8c2d2148ff4\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: If, as he said yesterday, employment law settings haven\u2019t changed and there were so few people on strike over the last nine years compared to the 65,000 on strike in the last 12 months, isn\u2019t it true then that the only thing that has changed in the last 12 months is the Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250e026e648a8486d9b0cb881f368e94f\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The underpinning sort of principle to that question is typical of a time when the National Party was led by people like Sid Holland, as opposed to the progressive labour Ministers of that party like Jim Bolger and Peter Gordon. But the reality is workers in modern liberal democracies have the right to withdraw their labour and have that protected, and to press their case for better pay and conditions. The fact that workers in New Zealand wanted to do that is a good sign, and we need to have a good legal framework that protects them but, ultimately, gets agreement not only on fairer pay and conditions but on what really matters, and that is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d87aecd656948379610b35667aa9b00\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022506481cb15b345a6b514403d48a26e2b\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014lifting productivity across businesses, from which everybody\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022892861c960a44b2d9c34f105ea24cf1c\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3f742d95f06490fa4ef33803a94f428\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014shares the gains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce7e600b0d084b3ab06ae2713183537c\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad0c0050fc774b538ea089f442013b00\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member would like to have a call now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022258f4d3d8aca47ebbe3f2b7eb0643ad3\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022141733b42938407991c615d85f165dc2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014would she, as opposed to a minute ago? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d38693ecf3594f989545c55c5c776b94\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Small Business\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00224e3c49b7348b4e21a08acb2f925c7c25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e3c49b7348b4e21a08acb2f925c7c25\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Small Business: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s policies and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u002208e8ca79ecc04e18ac28f6e900461058\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208e8ca79ecc04e18ac28f6e900461058\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Small Business: On behalf of the Minister for Small Business, yes. For example, about an hour ago, in Canberra, I signed a formal trans-Tasman e-invoicing arrangement with the Australian Government. New Zealand and Australian businesses process around 1.3 billion invoices annually, and research indicates that the economic savings of e-invoicing could exceed $30 billion in both countries over 10 years. This Government is committed to growing the economy and working with businesses to encourage productivity. This agreement is yet another step this Government has taken to support small businesses in New Zealand over the last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5c69b2b7cc14c808ea3c59baf464d3b\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Small Business Council providing value for money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c999f9fb6f24d9d9d7bf3d159283e6b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that it is. The Small Business Council is set up to ensure that there are quality conversations between the Government and small to medium sized enterprises. The Prime Minister is going to come and meet with the Small Business Council, and I\u2019ll be delighted to accompany her to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b222077d682d4b359a8f6fe9fb96440d\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that part of the report back from the Small Business Council includes a recommendation on whether or not to establish a small business institute? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7075bcedb2242a8bbcbe9a84b65183d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I don\u2019t have that level of detail in front of me, but if the member wants to put that question in writing, I\u2019m sure she will receive an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e705c2b5fda4d8b89a11a62d9d1597e\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Well, isn\u2019t that just, then, a working group tasked with creating another working group?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f35fc8485a445f09e60fdd7cbcd6b06\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecfa4398ab30412287f5213a5fd6ca4b\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe it is a good use of taxpayer money spending $135,000 on a new working group who has been tasked with deciding whether or not to establish another new working group and whether or not to keep the current new working group?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239d48a8be2f74ea28d20f9b0ce0fd72c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: This Government believes in the value of small business. Unlike the previous Government, we want to support relationships and make business easier rather than adding the red tape that was added during the last nine years. We are concerned to make their lives easier. We\u2019re progressing e-invoicing that would create savings of around $30 billion across Australia and New Zealand over the next 10 years. We\u2019re making improvements to the New Zealand Business Number, including initiating legislative changes. We\u2019re renewing the small business payroll subsidy. We\u2019re providing the R \u0026amp; D tax credits. We\u2019re applying GST to offshore suppliers of goods to make life easier for small businesses. And we\u2019re launching the online tools Choose Business Structure and Workplace Policy Builder. I think the small business area is delighted they\u2019ve got a Government that\u2019s finally listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3ad5eb61b79472984d287fa3325f831\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014ACC\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u002293b8eb58f09945a292904011133b11f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293b8eb58f09945a292904011133b11f8\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: Does he stand by all his answers to Oral Question No. 10 yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00222fd3dcaa91744d75aca937be1e72013c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fd3dcaa91744d75aca937be1e72013c\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Associate Minister for ACC)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for ACC: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aa1121ccaa742f6bbc4868c59ad9ca8\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Have ACC officials made a \u201Cvery convincing case to him\u201D as to why petrol prices should increase by a further 1.9c a litre through the proposed motor vehicle levy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf6d1a90122f4dfea892f59529654581\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, the consultation process for levies actually ends today. No doubt, upon the completion of the consultation process, advisers will come back to the Minister with the advice from the consultation, where he will forward that conversation to Cabinet for a decision to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a31201eadd745cb917e5f80f886cd2a\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What is the current financial position of the ACC scheme in terms of assets, reserves, and investments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222715c8374a8248c881adfc6551b932d4\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, if the member was listening, only today the current ACC annual report was tabled in the House, and I\u2019m sure all of the up-to-date figures will be in there. The numbers that were given by the Minister yesterday were the data that he had at hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261717fd050f743fd923a4418a33ed5fd\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This was, effectively, a question on notice, because it is exactly the same supplementary question that I asked the Minister yesterday. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7097e9f06ee4610a3283f7f287f9b1c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Sorry, we\u2019ll give another couple of supplementaries to make up for the interruption. The member can have his point of order again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261474375658e43128e3027b8bf5d719e\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019d like me to raise the point of order again, sir?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4f841505aad4d3c98ba9bd6067dd95f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d23c4a635847bbb9c2df4e155b41af\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Sir, the point I was making is that this was, effectively, a question on notice, because the primary question asked if he stood by all of his answers from yesterday\u2019s oral question, and this is exactly the same as a supplementary question that I asked yesterday that the Minister didn\u2019t answer at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216b6551e0e5845ee90d38b38f6a17499\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, my view is that he sort of not only answered it but doubled down. He said he stood by the figures from yesterday and there are some updated ones available on the Table now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cc6d5d9e01047a4ae7762781487dc45\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Are you saying that by putting a document on the Table of the House, that is a sufficient answer to a question during oral question time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fe17d3de327412787afab5a0b4237d9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think that if one references a newly tabled document immediately available to members with the updated figures of the type that the member is asking for, then the answer certainly does address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242bb31618f3c459b860ff4e13e1dd7c1\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister consider that it would be \u201Cbordering on unconstitutional\u201D for him to give advice to his ACC officials?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8a66ef970ba4f7e8baa06fe32d71783\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, it\u2019s very clear, the consultation process for the levies. The words of the Minister were, in effect, not an attempt to pre-empt any of the consultation process and to make sure that once the consultation process was finished, the right process would be followed from there, and that is to collect all of the consultation submissions that were made, and put that together. Then there would be a conversation, of course, to be had with ministerial colleagues, and then on to Cabinet for further decision-making to be had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e25b2ccc8454c6b9af1461a0363cd70\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: That was a long answer, but the Minister has not answered the question of why it would border on being unconstitutional for a Minister to give advice to officials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275dedbdf4ecd492fb83c9f97cb8562ad\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think it did address the question, and this area, both yesterday and today, sort of reinforces to me the need for some better training for MPs on processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022390954269552401893948192ed94191a\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister told the House yesterday that the ACC accounts were very, very full and that there needed to be some rebalancing of those accounts, did he convey that to the board of ACC, and is he concerned that the board appeared not to listen to him by proposing the consultation document that ACC levies for motor vehicles go up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e2565ee9a754c56bd825f9ca41cf624\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Speaker. Can he repeat\u2014I was mistaken and thought it was a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022460267d9dbf340df8e4b158213e9b84b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014no, I think many of us thought that you were overriding the point of order rather than asking a question. I think it was a very good question. The member should ask it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022615e4467a1294d478dec1e8455e0317c\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister said yesterday, in an answer to a question, that the ACC accounts were very full and that they needed to be rebalanced down, did he convey that Government position to the board of ACC, and is he concerned that the board of ACC did not listen to him in preparing a consultation document that has motor vehicle levies going up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dcd6892bacb4aae940a4056268060a0\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I\u2019m sure that, upon the balance of all of the submissions after the consultation period, the Minister will then be able to make more direct communications to the board and, of course, to his ministerial colleagues in Cabinet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baa2293be5f342eba6ec0cb8689994f0\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0462f2f7f2147658ccaba180653657d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Can\u2014I\u2019m tempted to call the member the wrong name. The Hon Amy Adams, the Minister is making an attempt to answer the question. I think he\u2019s probably going to make another attempt in a minute, but I want to be able to hear if he gets to an answer, and I can\u2019t if the member is making those noises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225641c3e6b44640b5a335a372935c4dc2\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, can I first say that the figures given by the Minister yesterday were the figures that he had at hand, and acknowledging that the brand new annual report was tabled in the House today. Secondly, with regard to advice to and fro between the board and the Minister, it was very clear that, through the consultation period, we needed to let that take its course to ensure that the voices of the people were heard on the matter. Once that\u2019s concluded and the submissions are gathered together, there will be advice and further conversations had between the Minister, ministerial colleagues, Cabinet, and, no doubt, the board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221989ca1976714b23903825393bab7c19\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e10c26a68457411e932d508eaa5ebe0d\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Proper process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfcc81b6d0864f34895fa1b7b6954160\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I can deal with it. The question asked, I think, was about communications, which included the period before the consultation document. Now, it may be as the Minister\u2019s an acting Minister he\u2019s not aware of the detail of it\u2014and there\u2019s nothing wrong with saying that\u2014but if the Minister who is acting for the Minister is aware of any advice or discussions before the things went out, he should say so\u2014otherwise, he should just say that he\u2019s not aware, and we can move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225daf17068cbb4d378bb29999174af478\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware. However, having the consultation document in front of me, there are proposals in here that make it quite clear what the purpose of the consultation process was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcf593ee02124622a269c3c8c8699a0d\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Despite your assistance to the Minister answering the question, the answer ignores the fact that ACC is a beast of statute. There is a letter of direction to ACC as to how they should operate. There is a concern expressed in this House by the Minister that the funds, or the accounts of ACC, are topping 120 percent, etc., and then a concern and then a suggestion that it\u2019s OK for the board to go out and consult on whether even more money should be taken off New Zealanders. Now, I\u2019m simply asking in that question: was the Minister consistent in his dealing with ACC and its board in the answer that he gave to the House yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8844137101a4b09986058c23dc9c429\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: None of that is clear and it\u2019s not going to be answered now. But the thing that I will do is remind the Minister acting for the Minister in the House today, especially given what happened yesterday, that we should make sure that we always say \u201Con behalf of the Minister\u201D and that that is understood, because otherwise we might be running into another problem. Now, I don\u2019t think we\u2019re going to make much more progress here. I think the standard thing is if members want to progress it, they should put down a very specific question about it or follow other processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d92ca0a141194fecaef1e12435cc8d4b\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: If his Government was \u201Cvery well aware of the cost pressure New Zealanders face\u201D, why did he put out for consultation the proposed 12.1 percent increase in the motor vehicle levy when it was suggested by ACC officials, given that ACC\u2019s strong financial position makes it clear the increase isn\u2019t needed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225329d3b1165f4ac7b2bfcbace16ee812\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, this is a process that\u2019s undertaken every two years, so it wasn\u2019t something that was sprung on the general public via the New Zealand Government. This is a process that happens every two years. So, therefore, the consultation scope was very clear from ACC to the members of the public, and that consultation process\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241351f1187ff4e5bbd95a189f25ed406\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, I want one person to answer it, not three, and the member\u2019s not being helpful in encouraging them to do it. I don\u2019t think anyone was the wiser from all of that, and I think we might move on if there\u2019s no further supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee46893c74ac4a7ca6fe093ec29a35a8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Research, Science and Innovation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u002214bd381f6ca444e9854b98ef570746f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214bd381f6ca444e9854b98ef570746f1\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Research, Science and Innovation: Does she stand by all aspects of the Government\u2019s R \u0026amp; D tax credit policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00225c4990e642c847ceba2087085b271261\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c4990e642c847ceba2087085b271261\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Research, Science and Innovation):\u003C/span\u003E Malo ni, Mr Speaker. Yes, in particular, that we will have our R \u0026amp; D tax incentive scheme in place for 1 April 2019 due to this Government\u2019s commitment to prioritising an uplift in R \u0026amp; D, and I was pleased to be able to introduce the enabling legislation today. I want to take this opportunity to thank all stakeholders who submitted during the recent consultation phase, and I look forward to engaging with members as the legislation makes its way through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6f0f4a458724f43a07eac8756e73fc2\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister tell the House that the R \u0026amp; D tax credit policy, as originally proposed, would help 3,000 businesses, but with the finalised R \u0026amp; D tax credit policy, which has a higher rate and a lower threshold, she\u2019s saying only 2,000 firms are likely to benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d3594e819124ced9412ae0b536862a8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: The figure that has been used from the time that we introduced the discussion has been between 2,000 and 3,000 businesses that could benefit. I\u2019ve used the number between 2,000 and 3,000 in the media and in statements consistently. We have conservatively estimated 2,000 companies will benefit from this, but we remain optimistic and actually expect that we will see between 2,000 and 3,000 businesses benefiting from this scheme, and we certainly have allowed enough headroom in the funding of the scheme to allow for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de22e56ac49e49a985b62a4b5a2a0eb7\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. To an oral question, the Minister said it was around 3,000 firms that will benefit\u2014in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d7cc3c8141d4eb18ee10f7735d9502d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And why are you telling me that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292449a94f97546ff87810152ddac7353\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is saying that she has been saying it\u2019s 2,000 to 3,000, and that is not right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222988539423604bbbb0114c7eb12cd106\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member thinks that the Minister\u2019s been deliberately misleading the House, then there\u2019s a process for that. If she disagrees with an answer, well, I think the word is \u201Ctough\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb451516a5be49f6846c83d1947233f3\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: Is she really saying that making something more attractive and easier to qualify for will mean fewer people do it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201490603e1e74d318c9cd4a2ec9eb501\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all. If the member had listened to my previous answer, the number of between 2,000 and 3,000 businesses that will be eligible is still the same. That is what we expect. We certainly note this is a huge uplift on the 300 businesses that benefited from the previous Government\u2019s growth grant scheme. I would point that member to the hugely positive reaction there has been from our business community. They are looking forward to the introduction of this scheme and a Government that truly backs them in an uplift in R \u0026amp; D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235f4b5fed0054ae0a401247ff3c4029b\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: Is the reason she has reduced the number of likely firms that will benefit to give the appearance the new policy will cost the same as the budgeted policy and to hide the risk of the scheme blowing out, the same way the Australian scheme did?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c6a8973756b4e679cee7fb431443fb9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Again I invite that member to listen to my previous answers. Let\u2019s be very clear on the amount of money that was budgeted for this scheme in this year\u2019s Budget, because this is a Government that believes in the value of R \u0026amp; D. Over a four-year period, there is over $1 billion additional funding budgeted for this scheme. Over the four-year period, there will be available from growth grants baseline funding a further $528 million, making $1.5 billion available over the four-year period. The forecast cost of the scheme at the 15 percent rates that we\u2019ve gone with, with the $50,000 threshold, is $1.2 billion, give or take. That allows $333 million worth of headroom. While that member might call it a blowout, we will call it a success when we get to spend that money. This is a Government that backs our businesses into R \u0026amp; D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b12239a8b00949818a7c60e0274e127a\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept the fact that the R \u0026amp; D tax credit policy will not benefit 99.6 percent of New Zealand businesses, a thousand fewer than originally claimed, is an admission that the policy is not nearly as effective as originally claimed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cc3f597f4a14b3aa756aefda998184c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: That member should really listen to answers that are given in this House and adjust her questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcb5acd1c2164155a38883b5347aad22\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, this has gotten to the point of being tedious repetition. I\u2019m going to stop it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d730b311863b4cf599b05a339a299b58\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022f59cd56fd1944b15a9c2e0723fe0b266\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f59cd56fd1944b15a9c2e0723fe0b266\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What action has the Government taken over the past year to place young learners and their needs at the centre of the education system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002272ca71d009b6442681904430b18acbf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272ca71d009b6442681904430b18acbf4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Heaps, but I\u2019ll highlight just two in the answer to this question. I\u2019m particularly proud of the fact that this year\u2019s Budget contained the largest increase in learning support funding for those with special needs in over a decade, and the Government has also successfully overseen the roll-out of the first-year fees-free education and training for all those who haven\u2019t participated in formal post-school education and training in the past, and it\u2019s two years for those undertaking industry training.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee9572a9983b4f5fbe0063e45a5e9f84\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What else has the Government done to improve New Zealand\u2019s public education system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6fd462ed6054763b6017c057d67474b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, there\u2019s heaps here, but I want to highlight one issue in particular, and that is the work that we have been doing with the teaching profession to lift the status of the teaching profession and to address the issues that they have been raising. In particular, we are committed to addressing the serious teacher shortages that we currently face, and we\u2019ve invested over $40 million to do that. We\u2019ve given teachers back the right to elect representatives to their own professional body, and we are working on a long-term education workforce strategy so that we can ensure we\u2019ve got enough teachers to meet demand in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a95a5e3b07c84436a0a5696074ddb466\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Building and Construction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00225b61f52a168b4abeba54674d8c752c67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b61f52a168b4abeba54674d8c752c67\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Building and Construction: What steps has she taken to ensure a sustainable construction workforce for New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022008461a017a641238440ff3c5fe655f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022008461a017a641238440ff3c5fe655f8\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Malo ni, Mr Speaker. Lifting the capacity and capability of the construction workforce is key to a number of our Government\u2019s priorities in housing and economic development, including KiwiBuild. That is why I established the ministerial group on construction workforce, which oversaw the development of a mobilising construction skills action plan, which my colleagues and I announced a few weeks ago. The construction skills action plan has six priorities intended to work together to increase the profile of construction, the number of people entering careers in construction and training and industry, and business investment in skills and training development. This mobilising action plan we will continue to add to, to ensure that we build the skills that New Zealand needs for our future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dda09e4a7fef45fd973070a3c332b71d\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Will the decrease in the number of people undertaking apprenticeships and brick- and block-laying in the year to 31 August 2018 achieve her plans for a sustainable construction workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252f7dc4699dd4924a7e04bd9f9a56b32\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is that we came into this Government and we were confronted with the fact that we were short by many, many thousands of people in the building and construction area, not just block-laying\u2014block-laying plus many others like carpentry and plumbing. What we are told at the moment by the Ministry for Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) is that we are short by 30,000 skilled people. This did not happen over 12 months, but what we as a Government are committed to doing is ensuring we train up New Zealanders to build our houses and our infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ce740c9d05b4ff484c8bda7bcae4e9c\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that, of the data that has been released by the Minister of Education in response to written questions from the Opposition about the various building and construction trades, in fact almost all of them have shown increases in the number of trainees since this Government took office, and block-laying is one of the few that\u2019s shown a decrease?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227420884ba1ae41e0871e37b9388c1b20\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The Minister has no responsibility for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022367fda6907794dbe811e724b77e297d4\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If that is the case, then all of the questions are out of order, because they\u2019re all questions relating to written question answers that I have given the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cb057a9f8d44e13a3dd31f122b566d3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And if the member had said that, and that was the basis of his questions, then they mightn\u2019t have been out of order. But he didn\u2019t, and they\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022f11cd90db48dc9f7d11f51587952e\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Will the decrease in the number of people undertaking apprenticeships in floor- and wall-tiling in the year to 31 August 2018 achieve her plans for a sustainable construction workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022635605da9b3b45e8b03e7666414bcf45\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is that there is an increase in trained people in apprenticeships right now. There are 46,000 people who are training to work in the construction and skills area. We are absolutely focused on ensuring that we train up New Zealanders to ensure that we build up our houses. There are a few decreases, as the member states, but overall there are 46,000 who are training in apprenticeships for construction and workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d31b6192f444020b6b793efbb5e5cbb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is that Minister saying that despite the tens of billions spent on the Christchurch rebuild, the tradespeople were not trained to be prepared for the building programme of this present Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2b1537b41b54d6c8f86cb96afdef35f\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, that last Government did not take the opportunity to train up New Zealanders when we had the opportunity with Christchurch. We would not be in this position if we had used the Christchurch earthquake rebuild to train up New Zealanders. We wouldn\u2019t be short by 30,000 skilled people, but we are absolutely committed to ensure that we train up New Zealanders to build the houses that we need as well as the infrastructure for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f37f84ec9b08416cba83dda59cab1395\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Will the decrease in the number of people undertaking apprenticeships in heating and ventilation in the year to 31 August 2018 achieve her plans for a sustainable construction workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fc64e5588f743e0a4caf0816754e61e\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: As the member is focused on heating and block-laying, we are focused on making sure we have enough carpenters, enough plumbers, and enough builders to build the 71,000 residential houses that we\u2019re short by. That is what our Government is committed to doing, and that is why we have a ministerial group made up of nine Ministers to ensure each and every one of us and our ministries puts our best foot forward to ensure we train up enough people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225df6da028fbb47dcacd9375837942b9d\u0022\u003ETamati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: What has been the response of the construction sector to the construction skills action plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ad98159a8984f348ed562496f2cf893\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: The construction sector has responded very positively to the announcement of the Government\u2019s construction skills action plan. For instance, the Building and Construction Industry Training Organisation stated, \u201CThe plan will cultivate skills \u2026 industry desperately needs.\u201D The Construction Strategy Group, key construction sector leaders, are supportive of the Government\u2019s plan, commenting\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CThe industry will strongly support these initiatives.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022722408165020409d9ed0831752b53ef6\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned that the announcement today of 10 two-bedroom houses in Te Kauwhata will cause a building boom\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cc9a46eee8c4e5f938c3f60a793d8d1\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Te Kauwhata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022668a161852a84f60bceb5b0d695dadf5\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that will put massive pressure on the construction workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d337f983f36e407e95bc2ab8291c3693\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I want to ask members just to be a little bit more tolerant than they are being. People have a different range of skills in the M\u0101ori language. I\u2019m not perfect, and there are members on both sides of the House who have a lot to learn. Mocking people who make mistakes is not useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211bd2e79cf8b4d8cbeba8ecfe6eda861\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member repeat his question please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022744bbe6d2ac248c9b11065a7af9aec3e\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned that the announcement today of 10 two-bedroom houses in Te Kauwhata will cause a building boom that will put massive pressure on the construction workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5c84c6b3b844accb55f141cbbcbe750\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: We know from the National Construction Pipeline Report that we will have a building boom right up until at least December of 2023. This is one of the reasons why it is absolutely important that we look at training enough people. But what the member also needs to take into account is the fact that we are looking at new ways of building houses in Aotearoa New Zealand. With prefabrication, we\u2019re building houses that take only about three weeks. One builder and three semi-skilled builders can build a house in just three weeks. So we are looking at new ways of ensuring we build houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209feeea42e034f5aac7b817601e7b558\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022762116a096af4147be81f05e9f377696\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022762116a096af4147be81f05e9f377696\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What progress, if any, has been made in the last year towards a more sustainable public health service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2b13d92bfe84b7fa0d4052f62817ead\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2b13d92bfe84b7fa0d4052f62817ead\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E This Government has made health a priority since day one. To mention just some of the progress we\u2019ve made, we\u2019ve made it easier for people to get care when they need it by making doctors visits cheaper for around 600,000 New Zealanders. We\u2019ve begun to address long-standing workforce issues with pay equity for mental health and addiction support workers and a significant settlement for district health board (DHB) nurses. We\u2019ve started work fixing up our hospitals by investing $750 million worth of new funding into capital works. This is a Government that believes all New Zealanders should have access to high-quality public health services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231674a8eac2a4237b5b95ac69e84a2f6\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has been made to ensure DHBs can cope with an ageing and growing population?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293c8eec9168d44f3a6e46ee7ebc4489a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The staff in our DHBs are world class and deliver quality care day in and day out. This Government has recognised that DHB resources have been stretched too far for too long. That\u2019s why, in Budget 2018, as the Dominion Post put it on its excellent front page, health was a big winner. [Holds up front page]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f43216e6a54b470b844cb6fc90ab605c\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s that guy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3fd4d058fd243d8868f4f8deee9f3c2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: We put an extra $22.2 billion\u2014that guy, Minister of Finance, is the Minister of Finance\u2014into DHBs over the next four years to help them maintain services and add capacity to cope with growing demand. One Budget can\u2019t fix the legacy of underfunding we inherited, but this is a Government that is firmly focused on the long-term well-being of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ba1605ec8a44b2aab3b458a09fe1005\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has been made in the last 12 months in improving mental health and well-being in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f6f22cec49144ffa548dba9b0a8aa1f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Improving mental health is a major challenge that requires a community-wide response. We prioritised initiatives we know will make a meaningful difference, including the Mana Ake programme, which is putting mental health support in primary and intermediate schools in Christchurch and Kaik\u014Dura. We\u2019ve extended the nurses in schools programme to ensure decile 1 to 4 schools are covered, we\u2019ve funded the construction of new alcohol and drug detoxification beds in Auckland, we\u2019ve launched the Integrated Therapies Pilot for 18- to 25-year-olds, and we\u2019ve boosted the DHBs\u2019 budget for mental health services by around $200 million over the forecast period. And, of course, next month, we will receive the report of the inquiry into mental health and addiction, which we commissioned in our first 100 days. That will come to shape our response to these issues for years to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d00aa800ebb1480c890af945d8fd18f4\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: If health was the big winner in Budget 2018, why was the DHB funding increase lower than the previous Government\u2019s last increase, and how does that constitute progress towards a more sustainable public health service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022791a8f4488614665af18c2d7780ad7ad\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I believe the member is expressing those things in a way which is a little misleading. He will be rolling one of the settlements into that funding increase. He\u2019s done that before. The actual increase to DHBs for running their services was the largest in nearly a decade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc2133ed329543ec83974eac37b74b9d\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think that providing not a single dollar of extra funding for new medicines constitutes progress towards a more sustainable public health service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8184e4e6d6a43ea9a544e98b65e076c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: We continue to get excellent value from Pharmac. They continue to provide more drugs for more New Zealanders, and that is excellent performance. This Government cares about making sure that the health dollar is spent as wisely as possible to make sure we get the most value we can from the health dollars for New Zealanders, and we will continue to do that unapologetically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d05cee43b9f94f29be3b7470d60a2894\u0022\u003EResidential Tenancies (Prohibiting Letting Fees) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002228b8c6a120fd4fcbb5f2ffe0a700f52e\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000233\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 24 October.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022 data-id=\u00225b462b1057ea4513b7890604d279d4fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b462b1057ea4513b7890604d279d4fe\u0022\u003EJO HAYES (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I\u2019m just going to give a brief summary of what I said last night. I said last night that this is one of the dumbest bills I\u2019ve ever seen come through this House. It has wasted this House\u2019s time, and it has done very little to actually keep people safe who are new tenants or prospective new tenants into the future. It\u2019s the type of bill that takes a blanket sweep to find and weed out the rogue landlords. They forget that not all landlords are rogue landlords; there are some very good landlords out there, and this bill punishes them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s the type of bill that some people from last night, from across the Government, said was a very fair bill. Well, it\u2019s not fair; it\u2019s very unfair to tenants, and it will open up an ability for additional money to be added to the rentals of the new tenants, as landlords and letting agents work to recoup that letting fee loss that they are going to suffer from this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019re going to see is that, potentially, families aren\u2019t going to be able to afford to keep up with the increased rent and they\u2019re not going to be able to afford those homes to live in. It\u2019s the type of bill where, because of rogue landlords, it is going to hurt everybody, absolutely everybody. It\u2019s going to hurt the good landlords, it\u2019s going to hurt the tenants, the prospective tenants, and I don\u2019t want to see that happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00225496672dedb24ae2b797c0700a3d89d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225496672dedb24ae2b797c0700a3d89d0\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Malo ni, Mr Assistant Speaker. I waited very patiently yesterday for this opportunity to speak on the Residential Tenancies (Prohibiting Letting Fees) Amendment Bill, and I was very disappointed not to get my chance. But you can imagine how delighted I am to speak in favour of this marvellous bill\u2014this bill that will, for once and for all, level the playing field that has been unfair and discriminatory towards tenants in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAt a time when tenancies are at an all-time high and homeownership is at an all-time low, we have realised that we have an unfair system that allows people to charge letting fees to tenants\u2014letting fees that are not part of a competitive market. There is no incentive to shop around and get the cheapest fare. It is simply the case that when there is so much competition for rental places, letting fees can be charged on the tenants at pretty much any rate they like. What this bill is going to do is bring it into a competitive market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe other side of the House believes in market forces. They believe in competitive markets, yet what they have done yesterday and today is stand up and argue for the rights of landlords, completely dismissing those growing numbers of people in this country that have to rent in order to have a home. This is not a fair situation, particularly given the housing crisis that this Government inherited after nine years of National. And what do they do? They sit there and whinge and moan and point fingers and say that this is wrong, yet at not one time in all their speeches did they say that they would reverse this bill if they got back into Government in, say, 15 to 18 years\u2019 time, because they know that once all this blistering noise has settled down, this is a bill that\u2019s fair and that will benefit most people, and then, when they are in Government in a long, long time, they will not reverse this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut let them whinge. Let them moan. While this Government gets on with helping people and building houses, we\u2019ll leave them to crumble bridges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments recommended by the Social Services and Community Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221530f589817243039bf09674536829cd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224f7563c91b4946d6975ea99a8df299d5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Residential Tenancies (Prohibiting Letting Fees) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228303404451cb4329a2a4d6d3248e326f\u0022\u003ECriminal Cases Review Commission Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002285976aefd51345499ebbc966b1bb9386\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000244\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 18 October.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u002281602081559e46bf85cf94561e2ed5f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281602081559e46bf85cf94561e2ed5f6\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. The bill establishes the independent Criminal Cases Review Commission. The commission\u2019s purpose is to review sentences and convictions and decide whether to refer them back to the appeal court. This will replace the power currently exercised by the Governor-General under section 406 of the Crimes Act 1961. Currently, someone who has been convicted of an offence and has reasonable grounds to believe that they might have suffered from a miscarriage of justice may apply to the Governor-General to exercise what is known as the royal prerogative of mercy. By convention, the Governor-General acts on the formal advice of the Minister of Justice, and the work on the prerogative of mercy application is undertaken by lawyers in the Ministry of Justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EEstablishing the commission is an opportunity to enhance this system by having an independent review authority with dedicated staff focused on the mandate to identify and respond to any possible miscarriages of justice. I should emphasise that the design of this commission is informed by the core principles underlining the prerogative of mercy and the referral mechanisms exercised by overseas commissions. The statutory grounds or tests for such a referral would be high, and the commission will have the power to refer the cases back to the appeal courts. It is not the commission\u2019s role to determine guilt or innocence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EComparable jurisdictions, notably the United Kingdom and Norway, have established similar review commissions. These examples provide a valuable experience for us to draw from. The equivalent review commission in the UK sends about one in 30 cases back to the appeal courts, and in New Zealand, information released by the Ministry of Justice showed that 11 people and eight cases had been compensated for wrongful conviction since 1998.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Bar Association has welcomed the development. They have been advocating for an independent review authority for many years, and other experts have said that such a development is long overdue. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1c9559ebdd548f2af8fd39e36fa664c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1c9559ebdd548f2af8fd39e36fa664c\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my pleasure to speak on the Criminal Cases Review Commission Bill. As has already been outlined by my colleagues last evening, we are opposing the bill, and there\u2019s a very simple reason for that: we just don\u2019t believe it is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EThis bill \u201Cestablishes a Criminal Cases Review Commission\u201D, and \u201CThe Commission\u2019s purpose is to review convictions and sentences and decide whether to refer them to the appeal court.\u201D As has previously been said, this will replace a power currently exercised by the Governor-General. The Criminal Cases Review Commission provides a mechanism for addressing miscarriages of justice. As an independent body, it can refer cases back to the appeal courts but it does not determine guilt or innocence. In our view on this side of the House, this will open the floodgates to a whole lot of people who believe they have a miscarriage of justice and will allow a lower threshold of entry into the appeal system than currently exists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll remind members on the other side of the House, who think this is such a wonderful idea, that two-thirds of the commissioners in this bill are not required to be legally qualified, making untrained and unaccountable commissioners extremely powerful, and the remaining one-third of the commissioners are not required to have criminal legal expertise or experience. This sets a very dangerous precedent. It should not be easy for somebody to actually bypass the court system if they want to appeal something, because at the moment they have to go to the Governor-General. It\u2019s a high threshold for that to happen, and, as part of the Governor-General\u2019s decision making, she or he at the time takes advice from the Minister in charge, with all the lawyers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EThe status quo does mean that there is an appeal mechanism currently available. It\u2019s not used that often but it is available. What we\u2019ve got here is we\u2019re setting up another commission. We\u2019re advised that the set-up cost of this is $2.3 million to establish, and it will have an annual operating budget of $3.9 million per year. So it\u2019s not an insignificant entity. The mere nature of that would indicate to me and members of this side of the House that we are expecting an influx of these types of appeal processes, and, as I said before, it will lead to the floodgates being opened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EThe low threshold for people referring things back to the court will actually see more pressure placed on the courts, and we already know that the courts are overloaded. We already know that in many court jurisdictions, people are waiting for months\u2014sometimes over a year\u2014for a hearing. So we are now allowing somebody to go through this process and, I remind members on the other side, on any crime, not just a certain threshold of crime. On any crime, they can take it to this authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003ESo, I remind members, the commission will receive applications from eligible persons or their authorised representatives, carry out activities it considers necessary to make the functions known to and understood by the public\u2014in other words, to promote the body\u2014have the ability to undertake initial inquiries into a conviction or sentence, undertake thematic reviews into a practice, policy, procedures, etc., and have reasonable powers to obtain information relevant to the investigation. There is a whole lot in these things that is unclear, and I remind members of this House that it should be by exception that this type of appeal to the Governor-General be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re having here is normalising this, and there\u2019s a whole lot of things that are equally not laid out in this bill. The bill is silent on the possibility that a decision by the commission could be subject to judicial review proceedings. In other words, at the moment this decision by the commission is not appealable on either side\u2014even by the court or the people that represented the original prosecution. There is no limit on the types of matters that can be reviewed\u2014as long as it\u2019s a crime. This opens the floodgates. In our view, it should be strongly opposed, and we are opposing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022b285c0feb4604bd08305b3081712c74d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b285c0feb4604bd08305b3081712c74d\u0022\u003EPRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s with great pleasure that I rise to take a call on the Criminal Cases Review Commission Bill, and also to\u2014I don\u2019t know whether it\u2019s really to challenge what the previous speaker, Lawrence Yule, who has just resumed his seat, said, because parts of it just weren\u2019t that clear. It was \u201Ctoo much justice\u201D\u2014not sure if he stood against too much justice\u2014\u201Cnormalising justice\u201D, the fact that it was too expensive to get justice. It was completely unclear. He seems to think that this is going to open some sort of a floodgate, so that we\u2019re going to get too many people who want justice. I\u2019m not sure what exactly his problem is, because what this bill does is establish an independent body to review criminal convictions and sentences, and decide whether to refer them to an appeal court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s independent. If this bill passes and this commission is established, it will run entirely independently of the Ministry of Justice. Commissioners will be experts in criminal law, in other fields. The reason we need this is that there are concerns about the timeliness, the quality, the fairness, and the independence of the current system. That\u2019s exactly what this bill is aiming to address. We know there have been high-profile cases, as members from this side of the House have spoken about previously, that attest to some of these concerns. This commission is a tool to identify and to correct miscarriages of justice when they occur. So I\u2019m not too sure what exactly that member has an issue with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThere are tests for referrals as well. There\u2019s a whole process that the bill lists, in terms of a test for referrals. It doesn\u2019t completely replace the Governor-General\u2019s powers, either; it replaces part of the royal prerogative of mercy. It just replaces the referral power that the Governor-General can currently exercise. That\u2019s where the perception of political interference is addressed, in terms of this commission, as well. So the Governor-General still has the power to grant a full pardon, but of course the use of that is quite rare as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI just want to end actually by quoting the findings that the Minister quoted as well in his first reading speech, I think it was. It was the findings of the United Kingdom\u2019s House of Commons Justice Committee in assessing the work of the Criminal Cases Review Commission there. It said, \u201CIf a bolder approach leads to 5 more failed appeals but one additional miscarriage being corrected, then that is of clear benefit.\u201D I, too, agree with that sentiment and believe that this bill will enable us to achieve that. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022e91b58c0588a43328b3a43341c50a6bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e91b58c0588a43328b3a43341c50a6bb\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Assistant Speaker. I know why this bill has come about, and no one denies that it is well-intentioned, because no one in the Parliament wants there to be miscarriages of justice. No one in the New Zealand Parliament wants people to be wrongly convicted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ead73c7ef2d449cca7a66227a70bb521\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Lawrence Yule does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc3f6b69572a41f586f12effb5da2345\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of crimes. No, Lawrence Yule does not want that. Don\u2019t be silly. Don\u2019t be silly, Mr McAnulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWhere this bill came about was because of a spate of cases over the last 10 years\u2014the Bain case, the Teina Pora case, the ongoing saga to do with Peter Ellis down in Christchurch. The Labour Party decided, for reasons best known to themselves, that one solution to the problem of alleged miscarriages of justice\u2014and I\u2019ll come back to that\u2014was a criminal cases review commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern, the now Prime Minister\u2014I was on the Justice and Electoral Committee with her, along with Jacqui Dean and others, in the last Parliament. She was very keen on this idea. A lot like when the Prime Minister makes policy\u2014she sees something that sounds quite good and she doesn\u2019t do the real homework on it and doesn\u2019t do the reading on it. \u201COh, we\u2019ll have a review commission. Oh, that sounds great. The United Kingdom\u2019s got one, so if it\u2019s good enough for the United Kingdom, it\u2019s good enough for New Zealand.\u201D And now poor old Andrew Little, the Minister of Justice, has been handed the hospital pass of trying to make this into reality and trying to grapple with, actually, some pretty complex underlying criminal law issues to put this into place. I will come to some of the issues that are not dealt with in the bill so far. So I acknowledge completely the intention\u2014it\u2019s a sound one; it\u2019s a good one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBut the first and most important point I want to make\u2014and it deals with the member who is scarpering out, which is Priyanca\u2014is they have not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022004871bea0ca43d2a2631698060f3237\u0022\u003EPriyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: Full name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253afa5781eeb4af7840ac73737ab0f7f\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Priyanca Radhakrishnan. The Government has not made the case, in my view, for how the current system does not work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s look at the examples that Ms Radhakrishnan talked about. She said, \u201COh, there are lots of notable examples in the recent past of miscarriages of justice.\u201D OK\u2014the David Bain case. David Bain was convicted in 1994 for the murder of his family. He went to prison. He eventually went through the legal process and went all the way up to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which ordered a retrial which quashed his convictions in order to retry him in 2009, largely on the basis of the new evidence that Joe Karam was able to introduce around the luminol footprints. OK, fair enough. The new trial was held, I think, a couple of years or so later. David Bain was not convicted of those crimes; he is a free man. Well, why do we need a criminal cases review commission? What would a criminal cases review commission have done for David Bain? David Bain appealed with fresh evidence. He went up to the Judicial Committee, they quashed his conviction, he was retried, he was found not guilty and he\u2019s a free man. Why do we need a criminal cases review commission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWhat about the other example\u2014Teina Pora. The same thing happened. Teina Pora\u2019s convictions were quashed by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, largely on the basis of new scientific evidence around foetal alcohol syndrome disorder and whether or not he actually was guilty of the murder of Susan Burdett. Again, why do we need a criminal cases review commission? His conviction was quashed by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMark Lundy\u2014Mark Lundy went through the various processes. Mark Lundy appealed to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council on the grounds that he couldn\u2019t possibly have committed the murder of his wife and his daughter at that time. There was evidence around the McDonald\u2019s that they\u2019d consumed the night before, there was the question of was he able to get back to the Foreshore Motor Lodge in P\u0113tone\u2014which, incidentally, is about 45 metres from my house, as it happens\u2014and whether or not he could go back there in enough time to make it back to Palmerston North. And, of course, there\u2019s that evidence around the human tissue that was found on\u2014I think it was a T-shirt found in his car. There was new evidence adduced by Mr Lundy and his lawyers at the Privy Council around the testing technique that the police used back in 2000 in Palmerston North, and his conviction was quashed. Then he was retried and, actually, he was found guilty. Actually, the police completely changed their theory of the case, or the Crown changed its theory of the case, and it turned out that they made a much more obviously convincing case for him being the guilty suspect. So, again, why do we need a criminal cases review commission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EA Labour member over there said before, \u201CWell, it took a long time.\u201D Well, look, actually, these things do take a long time, and I\u2019m telling you now that once this Criminal Cases Review Commission is established, it will take a long time for people who think they can make use of its resources to go through the process, and that\u2019s without even talking about all of the unknown elements of the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFor example, will the system be amenable to judicial review? I\u2019m telling you now, if there\u2019s judicial review available for what should be a public body applying public law principles, then that is going to literally insert another whole massive layer of appeals inside an appeal system, as it is\u2014OK? If you think the Kim Dotcom saga was bad, with multiple different chains of litigation and multiple chains of appeal around, essentially, what\u2019s a pretty simple case of should he be extradited or not, and, what is it, seven or eight years later, we\u2019re no closer to that decision actually going to the Minister for a decision\u2014if you think that\u2019s bad, because it\u2019s largely judicial review and appeals that have caused that, then you have not seen anything yet when it comes to the proposed Criminal Cases Review Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo I just simply ask the House and ask the Government\u2014all of the cases they have made reference to and have averred to in their speeches have been dealt with through the traditional criminal process. The second point is, what is superior about the Criminal Cases Review Commission compared to the royal prerogative of mercy? It\u2019s not clear to me how it will be superior, because Raymond Huo, who\u2019s the chair of the Justice Committee, just spent quite a degree of time in his speech talking about how it largely replicates the elements of the royal prerogative of mercy and it seeks to, basically, enshrine that into a formal statutory process. So what is superior about this process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe system we have now, I believe, works well. I believe it is effective, and I believe I\u2019ve pointed to examples of the criminal justice system working effectively to remedy wrongs committed during the system. I\u2019ve listened to all the Government speeches, and beyond pious words around \u201CWe\u2019ve got to make justice work for everyone.\u201D and stuff like that, which no one disagrees with\u2014beyond kind of \u201Cmotherhood and apple pie\u201D sanctimony, which we\u2019re used to from the Labour Party, they have not made a credible case for the Criminal Cases Review Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll repeat what I said at the start of my speech: it largely reflects the work that was not done by Jacinda Ardern, the Prime Minister, who was the then justice spokesperson in Opposition, when a spate of these cases were going through the courts. Very, very high-profile cases\u2014Bain, Pora, the ongoing drama to do with Peter Ellis\u2014and like a lot of Labour Party policy, it sounded like a good idea: \u201CWe\u2019ll chuck it in the manifesto and see what happens. We\u2019ll probably never have to implement it.\u201D Well, now we do, and, I\u2019m sorry, but the bill that has been presented to the House so far is a shocker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s talk about the actual issues to do with the bill which have been canvassed already. One-third of the people on the commission have to be lawyers\u2014one-third? One-third? This is, essentially, an appellate body, right? This is a body that is going to weigh up evidence, and if it believes that it\u2019s in the interests of justice\u2014because that\u2019s the test\u2014it can then refer those cases back to the appeal court. One-third have to be lawyers? Seriously\u2014one-third? I mean, seriously\u2014only a third? We\u2019re going to get people\u2014I\u2019m in no doubt that there will be smart people on it, but one-third? This is a body that is going to deal with the most fine-grained issues of criminal procedure. That\u2019s the reason why there\u2019s a Criminal Cases Review Commission in the first place. That\u2019s the reason why the cases are going to end up there, because the admissibility of evidence is really complicated. That was true in Bain, it was true in Lundy, and it was true in Teina Pora as well. These are really tricky issues, and the Government wants to put on the Criminal Cases Review Commission two-thirds non-lawyers. It\u2019s an absolute shocker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWhat about the rules about how this is all going to operate? It\u2019s not subject to the Official Information Act\u2014that\u2019s bizarre. What about the rules of contempt of court? Does that apply? We\u2019ve got no idea. What about the rules about the privilege against self-incrimination? We have no idea. The rules of evidence\u2014will they be applicable in the appellate body, and will they then be applicable again in the court that it gets referred to? We have no idea. The Government has not made the case. This is a shocker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc58b226717d4629881dd4825cf9b630\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc58b226717d4629881dd4825cf9b630\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d174b4f0aa4b4017a88b8cecef1887ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d174b4f0aa4b4017a88b8cecef1887ad\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. Well, I\u2019m really disappointed that Mr Bishop didn\u2019t read the bill before he started his speech, because there does seem to be a fundamental misconception on the other side of the House about what this is. It\u2019s not an appellate body.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELook, as someone who has worked on innocence projects, I can tell you what this does and I can tell you what goes wrong. I can tell you, in respect of each of those cases, why we need a criminal cases review tribunal, because those people, whilst they were waiting for justice, were languishing incarcerated whilst people worked tirelessly for nothing because they thought something had gone wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo Tim McKinnel, an investigator\u2014not a police officer, not a lawyer, but an investigator\u2014looked at Teina Pora\u2019s interview tapes and thought, \u201CHang on. This isn\u2019t right. The police didn\u2019t behave properly here. This person wasn\u2019t dealt with fairly.\u201D So he worked tirelessly until he gathered enough evidence, talked to enough experts, and got lawyers on side who would help him progress that case until it crossed the threshold, so that the team could then go and persuade the Legal Services Agency that it was deserving of legal aid. Only then could the appeal case be put together. All of that was for years, and Teina Pora, whom I have met, was in no position to pursue his own case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis is not a court. It doesn\u2019t need fixed rigid rules. It is a threshold body, and its job is simply this: to take these instances and determine whether it is in the interests of justice for an appellate court to have another look at what has gone on. Once that threshold has been reached, it will be able to be funded through legal aid and the process will be able to move more swiftly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not the courts, necessarily, that are the problem; it\u2019s all of the pre-court processes that are difficult. One of those is this: that an application for an appellate opinion on the prerogative of mercy goes through the Minister\u2019s office, and lawyers in the Ministry of Justice who have full-time jobs doing something else have to look at these things. That\u2019s entirely inappropriate. What we need is devoted people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAs for the suggestion that at least 33 percent, or one-third, of the members must be lawyers is a bad thing, what the cases have shown\u2014whether it be Bain, whether it be Lundy, or whether it be Teina Pora\u2014is that the breakthroughs in these cases are usually forensic. Bain was luminol on the bloodied footprints. That evidence wasn\u2019t a question of law; that was a question of science, and we have to get over the fact that lawyers are some kind of priesthood who know all the answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f24368340db042c78523bfe6d5a511a0\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Who thinks that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ad49d40a77344b88a1c4fce3bfba392\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I don\u2019t know. What we need is people who listen to good advice from other professionals\u2014investigators, forensic scientists, police officers\u2014and others with real skills in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo this is absolutely needed. It\u2019s not a court. What it is is an independent body which will look into these serious breaches, and it\u2019s entirely a misconception to think that it\u2019s going to be overwhelmed. But what it will do is it will give justice much more quickly, much more robustly, and much more fairly than we have under the current system, and what it will also do is make sure that it doesn\u2019t rely on the luck of some lawyer or investigator seeing a miscarriage of justice going by or someone looking for a bit of glory in their professional career. What it will do is even the playing field so that anyone who thinks there has been a miscarriage can approach this commission, whether they have a high-profile gory murder case which has had lots of media attention or whether it might be something a little less salubrious but still very serious, where it\u2019s had serious criminal consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo I applaud the Minister for following through on yet another promise that this Government has made and addressing the miscarriages of justice which have happened and moving on to this criminal cases review tribunal. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220562fa2a50bc4e1a86140053dc409c38\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Criminal Cases Review Commission Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000289\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002296bb9e524c2444fc82edf0a510f60e72\u0022\u003ECommerce (Criminalisation of Cartels) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227824110a33b642a58f0e96e417a0cf85\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000292\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 27 September.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb5b682ac6e84502ab07464594734c28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb5b682ac6e84502ab07464594734c28\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, when the House last considered this bill, Melissa Lee had the call, and she has nine minutes and 40 seconds remaining should she so wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022eee5351683eb476aa6f1e7e51cf76627\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eee5351683eb476aa6f1e7e51cf76627\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I do so, sir. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I think when I got up to speak on this bill the last time the bell literally rang as I stood up to say a few words, so I have no idea what I actually said in those 10 or 20 seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff11d29b50a743098fcbdc877e38d910\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It was very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0608cacbb6c424d833fd9576b14ba7d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It would have been fantastic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227943727154814b12bcdbd0ae754b3391\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you so much. My colleagues behind me are very, very kind, obviously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThank you for the opportunity to take a call on the Commerce (Criminalisation of Cartels) Amendment Bill in its second reading today. I\u2019d like to begin by thanking the 20 submitters who wrote to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee and the 11 who actually came and gave oral submissions to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ERight from the get-go, I need to say that I oppose this bill. I guess, simply put, I don\u2019t want people at home listing to the debate to think that I\u2019m not against the idea of people or businesses engaging in cartel behaviour. Obviously, it\u2019s actually bad. The point at which I actually oppose the bill is that the National caucus has determined that the criminalisation of cartel conduct is actually a step too far to be put into legislative practice. We feel that that move from civil actions to criminal sanctions undermines the economy and does not actually support the ability of businesses and entrepreneurs to innovate and develop their companies. We feel that the civil actions already, in fact, impose big deterrents for businesses to act in a cartel manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EOne of the submissions that actually makes a clear statement\u2014well, there were actually quite a lot, but I remember the submission by barrister John Land of the Stewart Germann Law Office. In his submission, he was concerned with the extension from civil action to criminalisation in terms of the definition, and the effect that legislation regulation of cartel behaviour may have on franchise networks where market allocation is a vital part of the development of each practice, and that it could, in fact, come into the determination of a cartel, as this law is being proposed, and that it is simply not appropriate and not what the law should be envisaging in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EAnd there are so many franchise businesses. Some of the examples that the select committee went through and discussed were in fact quite interesting. For example, one of the things that even our departmental report sort of suggests is that when a doctor in a low-decile community gets together to agree a maximum child consultation price for the benefit of the community\u2014I mean, that is actually price fixing. Would this be considered cartel behaviour? Pubs in a university town agreeing to impose an early closing time to curb drunken behaviour\u2014that\u2019s an output restriction. Competing supermarkets agreeing not to offer free plastic to customers to reduce waste\u2014that comes under price fixing and output restriction as well. Doctors agreeing to cap fees for the elderly\u2014that\u2019s price fixing. Car dealers agreeing not to sell cars with perceived safety issues such as potentially faulty air bags\u2014that\u2019s an output restriction. Some of these things are definitely cartel behaviour, and sometimes businesses do not intentionally offend. They do not intentionally do things thinking that they\u2019re wanting to act like a cartel or actually harm consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIt must also be noted that the New Zealand Treasury is not in favour of cartel criminalisation, and they believe the existing regime to be working well. I quote Treasury\u2019s regulatory impact analysis team\u2019s conclusion: \u201CBecause of the hidden nature of cartels and the difficulty of actually determining the costs they impose on the economy, a more precise cost benefit analysis is not feasible. This makes it difficult to precisely determine the incremental impact of criminalisation in deterring cartel conduct\u201D. So whether it is a proportionate response to the problem posed by cartel conduct\u2014I mean, that\u2019s what they said. Is criminalisation needed? Even Treasury doesn\u2019t seem to agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EA business that falls foul of this legislation stands to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars, possibly millions, for an action deemed prohibited cartel behaviour, like some of the examples that I quoted earlier. I believe such an approach is probably better. As I\u2019ve said, they stand to lose a lot of money and, you know, that is enough of a curb instead of criminalising it. It seems a little step too far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EMany submitters believe that criminalisation will have a chilling effect. One of the things that I would like to also possibly read out is, for example, from the New Zealand Initiative, which said that they\u2019re concerned \u201Cthe mere intention to engage in cartel conduct is insufficient to target criminal liability and something more is required to reflect the moral wrongfulness or knowledge of wrongdoing.\u201D Some of these things are very difficult to in fact prove. I think it is quite worrying when people and submitters and businesses are actually saying that this bill would potentially create a chilling effect on the way that people actually run their business or, in fact, compete. As I said earlier, often these cartel behaviours are hidden. Nobody actually outwardly shows off that they\u2019re behaving in a cartel manner when they do these things, and I think going that step further might actually bring them further into the darkness. I just think it is very difficult legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EAlso, I believe that this is something that we, as a National Government, dealt with, and I don\u2019t understand why this Minister has actually brought this back, like, I guess, a re-hash job of the legislation that National actually passed. We actually dropped the criminalisation in that previous bill, which was actually passed by this House, and this is literally just adding the criminalisation. Once again, I stand to oppose this bill, and I hope that other members will agree with me that it is very difficult if we criminalise this behaviour. It doesn\u2019t mean that it\u2019s wrong, but I think we have enough of a sanction for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u002269eb0c55d1a74f9d9011b06366b91f35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269eb0c55d1a74f9d9011b06366b91f35\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou, kia ora. I rise to support this legislation. Following on from that last member, Melissa Lee, it\u2019s incredibly curious that the previous Government supported this\u2014the criminalisation of cartel behaviour\u2014then they changed their mind. The Green Party at that point changed our vote to vote against the previous Government\u2019s amended cartel legislation because it wasn\u2019t giving the legislation the teeth that it needed to do the job. Now that the new Government\u2014the Labour - New Zealand First - Green Government\u2014has put crimination of cartel behaviour back inside this legislation, the Green Party is supporting it. Why? It\u2019s because we know that cartels are so damaging for consumers, for the economy, and for the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis legislation allows company directors to be criminally liable for knowingly running cartels. It allows a new defence, sets the maximum sanction, provides matters relating to the proceedings of the court case, and provides the two-year transitional period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ECartels reduce competition. They act against the interests of consumers and they keep those prices high. In a small country such as New Zealand, with limited players in a market, it\u2019s critically important that we have the protections to make sure that all businesses can operate in a fair, transparent way, and on a level playing field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank the submitters. There were 20 of them who provided written submission and 11 who made oral submissions. It was interesting to canvass the debate. Now, basically, it comes down to the idea that there\u2019s a spectrum of, I guess you could call it, cooperating on one side, through to collusion and cartel behaviour on the other side. Now, most New Zealanders, quite rightfully so, would say that cooperative behaviour is morally and, in the case of our existing cartel civil legislation, legally appropriate, but it\u2019s that end of the spectrum, that cartel behaviour, which is so damaging for customers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENow, it is a balance, and what I would point out for those National members who are opposing it is that it\u2019s not a blanket criminalisation of cartel behaviour. There\u2019s still that spectrum of options available to the existing civil remedies for those lower-level infringements. The fact is there are exceptions and defences incorporated into this legislation to make sure that we are not being overly onerous or unreasonable, but the key point is that we need to have these criminal sanctions available as a remedy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI can\u2019t put it any better than Professor Peter Whelan, who is an expert on these issues, who said that criminal sanctions \u201Cshould be introduced in New Zealand \u2026 [they act] to secure deterrence \u2026 [they] help bolster the administrative enforcement of cartel law in New Zealand \u2026 [and] the operation of the administrative leniency programme\u201D. The key thing is if you\u2019re going to only have a dollar penalty as the ultimate sanction, there is the risk that those who knowingly are operating a cartel will be quite happy to pay the fine. This is why we need to make sure that the legislation has teeth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe are very happy to support this. We were disappointed when the previous Government took the criminalisation of cartels out. We are very glad to see it here today and, ultimately, it\u2019s in the interest of the New Zealand economy and New Zealand consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6a6ff4a828d4f8dbded8538abcb5cf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6a6ff4a828d4f8dbded8538abcb5cf2\u0022\u003EANDREW FALLOON (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker, for the opportunity to speak this afternoon on the Commerce (Criminalisation of Cartels) Amendment Bill. I have the privilege of sitting on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. As I\u2019ve said on numerous occasions, it\u2019s a very hard-working and collegial committee, chaired by a very able chairman in Jonathan Young. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EBut, despite that collegiality of the committee, unfortunately, we have reported back the bill as a bar 1, so it\u2019s a very slim little report. We couldn\u2019t come to agreement on whether or not it should be passed. We did, though, benefit from the expertise of the former Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs Paul Goldsmith, and I think he gave a very good speech earlier in the debate on setting out the reasons why National is voting against this bill, despite what has been said this afternoon in support of it, or, I guess, in opposition to cartel-like behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EWe will be opposing the bill, and I will run through a few of the reasons why. The first one is really because we\u2019re not satisfied that a criminal offence is required. There\u2019s a very substantial regime already in place around civil proceedings that are available to members of the public, or indeed agencies, should they feel that there is some sort of cartel-like behaviour occurring in industries or between companies. The threshold for a criminal offence is very, very high. We need to be very, very careful when we do create a new criminal offence that it is not creating a chilling effect, which has been talked about a little bit in the debate this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EThere are two important tests, in my view, that need to be reached before you can create a new criminal offence. The first one of those is you need to prove that it is required, and I\u2019ve already talked about the fact that there is a civil regime in place that provides for very substantial penalties if cartel-like behaviour is proven. The second one is that it needs to outweigh the costs, and there has been some discussion already about the effect that this bill could have on very well-meaning and very well-intentioned individuals and companies out there in the economy and how they behave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EOn the first test, I need to turn to the excellent submission by the New Zealand Initiative. In their submission, they start by saying that they \u201Caccept that cartels may harm consumers and reduce welfare by enabling firms to raise prices above competitive levels. We also accept that cartels are difficult to detect.\u201D But they go on to say that \u201CIt is not clear that New Zealand has levels of cartel behaviour that warrant criminalisation. As at 2011, only 16 alleged price fixing cartels had been the subject of civil decisions by the New Zealand courts during the preceding 25 years, and the maximum civil penalties have never been imposed. \u2026 Given the civil penalties already available, criminalisation is unlikely to significantly increase \u2026 the deterrence or detection of cartel behaviour.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s very questionable whether or not this bill is actually required. As the Initiative point out, there\u2019s a substantial civil regime already in place. The most severe penalties have never been applied under the current regime, so there\u2019s a question about why the Government wants to go further and include a criminal offence. They also provide some useful data on criminalisation, which I think has been, unfortunately, lacking probably throughout the select committee process and in terms of what Government has presented to us, or what officials presented to us, about why this is required. They haven\u2019t proven the case as to why a criminal offence is needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EI then turn to my second point, which is whether or not applying a criminal offence outweighs the cost of doing so. In their submission, they identify that \u201CThe costs faced by businesses exposed to risk of criminal prosecution. Despite the clearance regime for collaborative arrangements, there is a risk criminalisation will have a chilling effect on pro-competitive behaviour.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EI want to expand on that point, because it is an important point which Treasury themselves identified a few years ago\u2014in fact, in 2011. They said, \u201COn balance, it is difficult to see how the likely benefits of cartel criminalisation in terms of international cooperation would exceed the likely costs imposed on businesses, the Commerce Commission, and the Courts. The benefits from clarifying the laws around cartel behaviour can be achieved without the introduction of criminal penalties.\u201D I\u2019ll just repeat that last point, because it is an important one: the laws around cartel behaviour can be achieved without the introduction of criminal penalties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EThe select committee considered these matters very, very carefully and over quite a few weeks, and one of the important points that we considered at length was around innovation, because numerous submitters did raise in their contributions that they had a concern about chilling behaviour, not just on the wider economy but also on innovation within the economy. One of the examples that was raised\u2014which was also mentioned earlier by my colleague Melissa Lee\u2014was around doctors and other medical professionals perhaps getting together in a community, and I\u2019ll use Timaru as an example for argument\u2019s sake. It might be doctors getting together in Timaru and deciding that they are going to establish a maximum price for treating young people, and I think we\u2019d all accept in this House that that would be a good thing if that was to happen, particularly if they come from low-income backgrounds. The problem with that, of course, is that to do that, those doctors would, essentially, be agreeing to subsidise that operation by charging other patients higher fees, and so that would trigger this bill, or it would suggest there\u2019s cartel behaviour going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003ENow, I should point out that our officials did say that there is a regime in place for different companies or organisations to go off and get approval, if they can prove there is no market benefit for them or no financial incentive for them to do so, but I wasn\u2019t satisfied with that because the problem with doing that is there\u2019s a huge cost in doing so. It\u2019s tens of thousands of dollars to go off and get one of these approvals by the Commerce Commission to say that you\u2019re able to behave in this way. A huge cost is involved, and so I just can\u2019t see why we would support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EThe second issue that the committee grappled with was around franchises. Again, there were some valid questions around whether or not franchises compete with one another or whether they essentially have a market to themselves. I think we\u2019d all accept that perhaps McDonald\u2019s in Ashburton\u2014there is only one McDonald\u2019s in Ashburton\u2014would not be competing with other McDonald\u2019s franchises, but that rule doesn\u2019t strictly apply perhaps to Starbucks in Wellington, where they seem to be on pretty much every second corner. So if you\u2019ve got a McDonald\u2019s franchise in Ashburton, they would justifiably say that they are not engaging in cartel behaviour by fixing prices, but that rule doesn\u2019t apply for other franchises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s one of the many reasons, I think, why the Franchise Association of New Zealand did oppose the bill. There were 20 submissions on the bill, as has been heard earlier. The majority of those submissions were against the bill. The Franchise Association of New Zealand was just one of those, but there was also a large number of some of our largest law firms in the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EI do want to turn first to Russell McVeagh\u2019s submission. In it they say, \u201CWe remain of the view that the administration and the enforcement costs of the criminalisation of cartel conduct are likely to be disproportionate to any benefit, and that the claimed deterrent effect does not outweigh or compensate for the potentially chilling effect it will have on pro-competitive collaboration between competitors.\u201D They go on to say that \u201CThe investigation, enforcement, and prosecution of offences facing significant criminal sanctions will be a significant departure from the Commission\u2019s existing expertise and experience in enforcing breaches through civil proceedings.\u201D, and they go on to name five or six different Acts that will be included as part of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns I have is that given that there\u2019s this new power being applied to the Commerce Commission, it just, frankly, comes down to resourcing, because, as we\u2019ve seen in recent days, there\u2019s been other legislation going through in the name of the same Minister, Kris Faafoi, which would provide for market studies, and, in fact, it would give the Commerce Commission the ability to determine whether or not they have their own market studies. So that will put more work on to the Commerce Commission, and this piece of legislation will put additional work on to the Commerce Commission. So that will be one of the many questions I will be asking the Minister during the committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EI did have a number of other points I did wish to make, but I see my time is rapidly diminishing, so I will leave those until the committee of the whole House. I\u2019m sure members opposite will be very pleased to listen to them. I just want to wrap up by saying that we do support the overall intent of the legislation, which is, of course, to reduce cartel behaviour, but what we don\u2019t support is the criminalisation, including creating another offence when it\u2019s not required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022db57542cf0af4ecbb211182253a90047\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db57542cf0af4ecbb211182253a90047\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call\u2014five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u002234f940a2524a4ba0937cd8af817080bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234f940a2524a4ba0937cd8af817080bc\u0022\u003ETAMATI COFFEY (Labour\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. Let me just start by saying that this bill is another example of why we are on this side of the House. This is about the Government actually looking after the rights of the consumers\u2014the little guys. That\u2019s exactly why we are doing this. What we have to do\u2014the means that we are using to do it\u2014are through this particular bill here, the Commerce (Criminalisation of Cartels) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ENow, when I go back home and I talk to friends and family about cartels, they don\u2019t really understand them. You see, it\u2019s not the common man\u2019s kind of language: \u201Ccartels\u201D. When you\u2019re talking about cartels, generally people that are embarking on that kind of behaviour are people that earn quite a bit of money. You\u2019re talking about big corporations. So when you\u2019re talking about that kind of behaviour, which is anti-competition and considered to be one of the evils of the business community, then it needs to be dealt with in the same kind of language and with really tough penalties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThe Commerce Commission was one of the submissions that we had before us, and, in fact, they too agreed that with stronger penalties it would lead to better outcomes for consumers. Let\u2019s just think about that for a moment, because they were adamant that financial payments are deterrents\u2014yes\u2014but, actually, if you really want to discourage the bad behaviour, you actually have to step up with very severe penalties. So the criminalisation aspect is obviously what we\u2019ve been talking about quite a bit throughout this whole process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EPutting more people in jail isn\u2019t exactly why I came into this job; I came in here, actually, to look after New Zealanders. But what I do understand is that when we\u2019re talking about cartel-like behaviour and we\u2019re talking about markets going awry, then, actually, we absolutely need to step up. Overseas experience has shown that, as I say, financial penalties contribute towards deterring those corporations\u2014big money\u2014but individual criminal sanctions also play an important role in deterring that kind of cartel behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ESo it is with that in mind\u2014and also, I guess, just an acknowledgment that, yes, we did have some submissions that were in favour, and we also had some that were against. In terms of weighing it up, we as a committee looked over it, and we as a Government are really happy to put our support behind this piece of legislation. It is a good piece of law that we will be making today. This is the second reading; there\u2019s still, obviously, the committee stage to go as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f40a439c12404bd4b18d4c0168ee2c36\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got another two minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fccbe3a201a445eb25f0c1517e00e61\u0022\u003ETAMATI COFFEY\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m done. I commend this to the House. Go!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002261a26659a30c47c990e7d4612ec76c2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261a26659a30c47c990e7d4612ec76c2c\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. It\u2019s a pleasure to be talking on the Commerce (Criminalisation of Cartels) Amendment Bill\u2019s second reading. Well, that member who just resumed his seat, Tamati Coffey, could get three minutes out of this\u2014amazing. You know, this bill, actually, is essentially a National Party bill, which the previous member didn\u2019t really seem to understand, although this Labour - New Zealand First Government wants to put that littlest extra twist into it\u2014that criminalisation stuff. And I tell you what, it\u2019s the same issue that we discussed last night around the Commerce Amendment Bill: this is a Minister, the Minister of this bill, Kris Faafoi, who is a soft touch\u2014a soft touch. Because we\u2019ve now had three pieces of legislation where all these little twists that the Labour - New Zealand First Government want to make are the extra bit that all our former Ministers on this side of the House went so far to make the changes\u2014and you\u2019ve nicked all our bills\u2014but you then just accepted, willy-nilly, what the officials have said to you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281f270847e4541c8918458da92d941b7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Just to remind the member: I didn\u2019t nick anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214784740460a429f9a204c579614b618\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. So let\u2019s have a talk about what a cartel is, because I didn\u2019t hear that from the previous speeches. So a cartel is now defined as a situation where two or more businesses agree not to compete when engaging in one of the following activities: price-fixing, restricting output, or allocating markets. And the thing about cartels is that, currently, it\u2019s a criminal offence. In fact, it\u2019s quite a substantial criminal offence. We\u2019re very careful at the moment about making sure that cartels do permit\u2014you can undertake certain arrangements, which are collaborative arrangements, vehicle supply arrangements, and joint buying and promotion. So all this is bona fide\u2014you\u2019re able to do that. But the cartel where we have this price-fixing and restricting output\u2014we all agree with that. We agree that that should not occur, and we agree that the Commerce Commission should do that. That\u2019s a given. But at the moment, we have severe penalties for activities that involve that, and they are civil. It\u2019s absolutely incredible, in terms of the extent of those. For instance, the sanctions at the moment: if you\u2019re an individual, you can be fined up to $500,000; if you\u2019re a corporate, you can be fined up to $10 million\u2014$10 million if you\u2019re a body corporate. So the issue around this is that we\u2019ve already got very significant civil penalties, and very few people actually want this. In fact, not even the Commerce Commission wanted this change, which I find quite remarkable\u2014that the Commerce Commission didn\u2019t want it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s see who else didn\u2019t want it. I think they are fairly august and well-known organisations: Buddle Findlay, quite a significant law firm; Business New Zealand; Franchise Association of New Zealand; Horticulture New Zealand; Institute of Directors; Matthews Law\u2014he does competition law, based in Auckland; New Zealand Certificate of Building Association\u2014they\u2019re a pretty good body, and I\u2019ve had a lot to do with them; Russell McVeagh\u2014again, well-known lawyers; Simpson Grierson\u2014yeah, pretty good lawyers, too, I must admit; and the business New Zealand Initiative. Not a bad sort of cast of people who are saying, \u201CLet\u2019s not do this. Let\u2019s not do this. Let\u2019s not move into the criminalisation aspect.\u201D And I think that is a pretty weighty group who are saying there are good reasons not to do this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think the issue around the criminalisation is that you get into uncharted territory. First of all, there\u2019s no proven case why we should be moving into criminalisation, but the thing is\u2014and this is where the Government just goes where no one else wants to tread\u2014what the Labour - New Zealand First Government has done in the last 48 hours is pass a whole range of bills that basically say, \u201CWe do not worry about commerce in New Zealand.\u201D The Minister talked about consumers last night. He\u2019s also the Minister of commerce. He should be concerned about commerce in New Zealand. He should be protecting and making sure that they\u2019re operating correctly\u2014and we all have that concern\u2014but what he\u2019s doing, and what you guys over the other side are doing, is putting in place these arrangements that take it a step further and put us into an area where it has a chilling impact on people, on businesses, and on commerce in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e60d2d73d7f4ac187ae83b51988e7c4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just remind the member that I\u2019m not doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7f09c97dd76421ea8cb90f45396d84e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7f09c97dd76421ea8cb90f45396d84e\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Now, I just want to start, first off, with my contribution this afternoon, where the previous member who\u2019s just resumed his seat, Andrew Bayly, made a comment about the fact that my colleague Tamati Coffey spent only three minutes discussing this legislation. And I say\u2014I put it to that member\u2014it\u2019s about quality, not quantity. I suggest that that member might like to consider that the next time he stands to take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EAnyway, so I\u2019m going to begin by talking about this piece of legislation. Thanks to the submitters who contributed and to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, which I\u2019m recently a new member of. I am really enjoying learning about this legislation and all the other pieces in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EBasically, what this is about is stopping cartel behaviour. It\u2019s about protecting consumers, right? So consumers\u2014and people in general\u2014are actually what this Government is all about looking after. Now, most businesses act in a proper way and comply with everything they\u2019re supposed to, but there are the odd rogue ones that don\u2019t. There was a member that spoke previously about the fact that we don\u2019t need to have a criminal offence with regard to cartel behaviour because it\u2019s not happening on that large a scale here in New Zealand. Well, I say: is that a reason not to, or is now not the perfect time to do it, before this starts to happen? So that\u2019s just what I would have to say around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EConsumers need to be able to trust businesses\u2014that businesses are acting with the best of intentions. When businesses are doing that and not participating in cartel conduct, then we see that, actually, competition is better\u2014competition is better among businesses, it\u2019s better for consumers, and it leads to lower prices and better quality goods and services. I say that now is the perfect time\u2014the perfect opportunity\u2014to implement this piece of legislation to protect our consumers now and into the future. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6aa3079f35142cf9613256c72c63480\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6aa3079f35142cf9613256c72c63480\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I rise to oppose this bill, this unnecessary bill, the Commerce (Criminalisation of Cartels) Amendment Bill, at second reading. Fundamentally, if Parliament is going to pass laws, we are going to do something that is going to\u2014in the really good cases, we enable things, but all too often we constrain activities. In this case, we can do damage to markets, which, ultimately, harms consumers. So we should be undertaking legislative change when there is an absolutely clear need to do so, where there is evidence to support it, and where the benefits that we can very reasonably predict will flow through are greater than the costs that could be incurred by doing it. This bill fails on pretty much every count.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003ETo begin on the first part, in the last term we passed a commerce amendment bill around cartel behaviour which places very significant\u2014quite onerous, if the court feels it is necessary\u2014and very serious civil penalties on individuals and bodies corporate that would be found to be conducting their activities in such a way. There is no fundamental\u2014I mean, we\u2019re talking about things that could be around $10 million or potentially even more in terms of a fine on a company, and half a million dollars on an individual. These are sufficiently serious penalties to deter people or at least make them very careful about how they go about their business activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EWe do acknowledge and we should acknowledge\u2014we certainly did when we went through that bill\u2014that there are instances where collaboration between companies can, in certain perspectives, look like it might be transgressing the sort of pro-competitive behaviour that we want and need in our market place but where, often, it is the case that it is not. So we\u2019ve already got the law to capture this, the law to investigate it, and the penalties to take appropriate action, and that, to an extent, will also provide a deterrent from individuals and companies participating or acting in this sort of nefarious manner. So there is no clear rationale as to why we must have a criminal sanction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003ENext, we should look for\u2014OK, what\u2019s the evidence that there is such egregious behaviour that it might be worthwhile having this? The reality is\u2014and as the former speaker that just resumed her seat a few moments ago, Jo Luxton, pointed out\u2014that evidence doesn\u2019t exist. No one claims that they have instances in New Zealand where such egregious behaviour has taken place that people should be locked up, so why on earth are we putting in such a sanction when we\u2019ve got no grounds for its need in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003ENow, it doesn\u2019t surprise me from this Government, because just this week in the Commerce Amendment Bill\u2014the other commerce amendment bill\u2014we saw them do just that in the greater regulation-making powers to do with regulated airports. The officials, on the introduction of that bill, in their regulatory impact statement, pointed out that there was no evidence that the current regulatory regime for those regulated airports was not working. They also said that even if it wasn\u2019t working, it would have a minimal impact on consumers anyway, which should be another huge test for amending the Commerce Act. But, none the less, they still said, \u201CLet\u2019s go ahead and give greater regulatory powers.\u201D We resisted that. There was a reason why we changed our position and voted in support of that bill in the end, and it was to seek to help New Zealanders with the costs they\u2019re bearing at the petrol pump, but, none the less, we resisted that because it was a case of creating greater regulatory authority when there was no evidence of a need existing, and this particular bill also fails that hurdle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EOn the benefit side, if we\u2019ve already got the ability to sanction people and companies appropriately or well or harshly, and those sanctions themselves form a level of deterrence, then what are the benefits that could accrue through criminalisation that we wouldn\u2019t otherwise get? Really, they should be benefits related to deterrence of the behaviour, because we do have some very harsh penalties already if it is investigated and found. There is nothing in the bill that suggests that there is anything extra to be gained for the consumer\u2014after all, the Commerce Act is about protecting the interests of the consumer. So there is nothing in the bill that evidences or even talks about the additional benefit that consumers would get\u2014New Zealand citizens would get\u2014if we were able to lock people up instead of just fining them for such behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s look at the cost, or the potential cost. Officials were really quite clear on this, and it was in the regulatory impact statement. Officials like Treasury and others oppose these measures because they believe that the criminalisation element could have a chilling effect on business investment and pro-competitive collaboration between businesses in New Zealand. Let\u2019s bear in mind, where we do have pro-competitive collaborative behaviour, when businesses, for their own mutual benefit but also the ultimate end benefit of their customers\u2014potentially joint customers\u2014are working together, that is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, in most cases, it\u2019s an incredibly good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EIf you want to take a simple example\u2014the relationship didn\u2019t always work too well, and at times it went to court, but a simple example is if you take IBM as once the greatest manufacturer of personal computers, and Microsoft, the near-monopolist\u2014at the time\u2014producer of operating system software for those computers. They ended up competing\u2014because IBM also created software, and a lot of it\u2014in the market of software, but they worked together in terms of what they were able to bring to companies, to individuals, to homes across the world, in fact, by working together on being able to put together a package of hardware and software that made the personal computer a great utility not only for businesses but for people. That\u2019s a simple example of where two competitive firms can be working together for the common benefit not only of their firms but, particularly, of the market and their consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003ESo do we really want to have a situation\u2014and some officials believe this is something that could arise from these criminalisation provisions\u2014where businesses who could work together constructively, not only for the benefit of them and their shareholders but, ultimately, for the benefit of consumers, are constrained or scared from undertaking those positive actions, those positive investments, because they\u2019re somewhat worried that the big guns are going to come out for them, and if they are found to have strayed beyond a mark, that the sanctions that could be imposed on them could extend as far as criminalisation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think and I certainly don\u2019t believe that the Government has put up any credible argument to suggest that the additional benefits of criminalisation for cartel behaviour, over and above a civil penalty regime, outweigh those costs or those potential costs. That\u2019s another reason why Parliament should be opposing this bill. We don\u2019t need it. The costs it could impose\u2014not actually on those businesses. I want to make this point very clear, because, ultimately, that pro-competitive collaborative behaviour works in the best interests of consumers. So why would we put something in place that, ultimately, has more cost in terms of missed opportunities for consumers than additional benefits it provides?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EBut, alas, none of that surprises me with this Government. We see it time and time again with legislation that they bring to this House, with regulations they seek to make, and with their rhetoric up and down the length and breadth of the country. They fundamentally have an issue: they believe that all business is bad and that business people, if left unchecked by things like the criminalisation of cartel behaviour, will run amok, will seek to rip their customers off, and will seek to cause them harm in any way they can, and that they can only be managed through the iron fist of Government regulation and legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003ENot only is that fundamentally and palpably wrong, but in doing so they miss the heart of the Commerce Act, which are competitive markets to the benefit of consumers. Competitive markets aren\u2019t simply prices or big sticks held up to businesses; competitive markets are borne out of business people and businesses investing: investing in new products, investing in new technologies, or creating new services and products of utility to customers. Along the way, in doing that, they create jobs and they create higher-paying jobs. The attitude this Government consistently takes is to the detriment of the consumer. I oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00221bab224ed9a3477cad33ecf669203054\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bab224ed9a3477cad33ecf669203054\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s an absolute delight to stand here and speak in favour\u2014just like my comrades here on this side of the House\u2014of the Commerce (Criminalisation of Cartels) Amendment Bill. This bill seeks to address the mistake\u2014yet another mistake\u2014that was made by the previous Government. Here we are, yet again: another example of this Government cleaning up the mistakes of the previous Government. This was touched on by Andrew Bayly\u2014\u201COld Yeller\u201D himself\u2014who stood there and said that this is essentially a National Party bill. And he was right, because when this bill was first introduced to this House back in 2012, it proposed the criminalisation of cartels, and they backed off. They fluffed it up, and here we are having to fix their mistakes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EMadam Deputy Speaker, if you would indulge me, let me read this quote, please: \u201CI believe that with the introduction of criminal sanctions,\u201D\u2014in relation to cartels\u2014\u201CNew Zealand stands to benefit in three ways. First is the increased deterrence of hard-core cartels due to the severe sanctions, associated stigma, and possible restriction of an individual\u2019s freedom. Second is the increased detection of hard-core cartels from improving the effectiveness of the leniency regime by increasing the value to the individual applying for leniency. The leniency regime is administered by the Commerce Commission, and encourages cartelists to come forward in return for leniency. Third is an improved ability to cooperate and detect cartel conduct.\u201D That wonderful quote, which outlines exactly why we need to criminalise cartels, was made by the National Party Minister who introduced the bill in the first place: Craig Foss. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bfcf2cb7614429c8ac1e0b59955a70f\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: What happened to him? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c184d3c73284a73b3f61f2ee02ba33c\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: What happened to Craig Foss? I spend a lot of time in Hawke\u2019s Bay. The Wairarapa electorate goes up to central Hawke\u2019s Bay, just above Waipawa\u2014in fact, I\u2019m going to be there tomorrow\u2014and what do I hear whenever I walk around Central Hawke\u2019s Bay? They say, \u201CBring back \u2018Fossy\u2019\u00A0\u201D. They say, \u201CBring back Craig Foss. At least he lived in the electorate, and at least he worked hard.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e0026270ed44804a1b1fce0e5f586ca\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, you must refer to people by their proper name\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ef974e153e43d4a4e318e52081944c\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: And that\u2019s what I tell them, Madam Deputy Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d17b942833294214a495d4c48b8e80ac\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and, second of all, I\u2019d like you to speak to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289089a103d3343da8c5121d574a1f536\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Dead right\u2014what a great bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis bill will fix the mistake that the previous Government mixed up, because what it will do is it will increase penalties and make them a criminal matter when having them as a civil matter simply does not fit the bill. Craig Foss thought that, I think that, and my comrades on this side of the House think that because, of course, a civil matter\u2014[Interruption] All I hear from the other side of the House is jealousy\u2014jealousy. When they look to their left and their right, like I do now\u2014when I look to my left, I see my mates, and when I look to my right I see my mates, and then, when they look to their left, they see knives and daggers. That is not a very safe environment to be in. But, over here, we\u2019re getting things done, like looking to pass this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn a civil matter, if found guilty, of course, the company will pay or the insurance will pay, and in a situation when cartel behaviour can significantly benefit a business, a fine that is disproportionate to the potential profit is not a fair deterrence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b09ee5cca924566821e9a38d4e70abc\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: No. It\u2019s just a tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022562dd207b2344430ae42570e33a3bb74\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: It is just a tax. My learned colleague from behind me, Dr Duncan Webb, who knows about these things and who spoke in favour of this bill, says that this is where we should move. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThey say that this will have a chilling effect. I say that what will have a chilling effect is behaviour that works against the interest of consumers. This Government stands here proudly introducing bills that will help consumers, so that people can have faith that businesses are acting in good faith, within the rules, and so that we as consumers can operate within a system that gives us confidence. I have no hesitation in commending this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d56d284b65fe413b978df52e48af91b5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question is, That the Commerce (Criminalisation of Cartels) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221fa0ebfea51348119997247ce6cd2f9f\u0022\u003ESocial Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb8a15f7115b4c19bcae97630b76df39\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u00227fde7bb33b9d4cc48c0de0ca4407233c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fde7bb33b9d4cc48c0de0ca4407233c\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO (Minister for Pacific Peoples) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Social Development: Malo ni tau huhuga a te Takitaki Fono. Malo ni, ko te vaiaho fakamanatu o te Gagana Tokelau. I greet you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I acknowledge that this is the week of the Tokelau language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI move, That the Social Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThis bill seeks to provide greater pension flexibility for New Zealanders who wish to live in the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau. This bill reflects the Government\u2019s commitment to a Pacific reset. We want to continue to grow and strengthen our existing and new relationships in the Pacific, and this bill is an important part of this. We want to make sure that those countries and territories that have close constitutional ties with New Zealand are recognised and that their ongoing economic and social viability is supported. We also want to ensure that superannuitants have as many options as possible as to where they choose to live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand superannuation and veterans pensions are our main forms of income support for older New Zealanders. New Zealand superannuation is payable at age 65 years to any New Zealand citizen or resident who is ordinarily resident in New Zealand when he or she applies, and who has been resident and present in New Zealand for 10 years over the age of 20, and also for five years over the age of 50. Veterans pension is the alternative pension for veterans and their partners who qualify for New Zealand superannuation based on the veterans\u2019 qualifying operational service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ECurrent pension portability arrangements allow people to take their New Zealand superannuation or veterans pension to one of 22 Pacific countries and territories, including the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau. The provision that makes this possible is called the Special Portability Arrangement. Under the arrangement, New Zealand superannuation and veterans pension is paid at a minimum of 50 percent after 10 years\u2019 residence in New Zealand, rising to 100 percent after 20 years\u2019 residence. The Special Portability Arrangement is designed to recognise the contribution Pacific peoples make to New Zealand and the inability of Pacific countries and territories to fulfil the reciprocal obligations necessary to conclude social security arrangements with New Zealand. There are currently 408 people receiving their New Zealand superannuation or veterans\u2019 pensions in the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau, and 351 of those people live in the Cook Islands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EGenerally, to be eligible under the Special Portability Arrangement, a person must be resident and present in New Zealand on the date of his or her application. An amendment to the Special Portability Arrangement introduced in 2015 allows people residing in the Cook Islands, Niue, or Tokelau to apply for New Zealand superannuation or veterans\u2019 pension from the Islands, rather than needing to be resident and present in New Zealand at the time of their application. The intent of this change was to remove a disincentive for people to return to the Cook Islands, Niue, or Tokelau to live. However, the change has had a smaller take-up than expected. It is now evident that the 2015 change, while removing some disincentives for skilled people to return to the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau during their working lives, did not achieve the desired effect of encouraging people to move back to and remain in those countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe Governments of the Cook Islands and Niue are concerned that the five years over age 50 residence requirement is the reason for the low take-up of the amendment made in 2015. They consider that the five over 50 residence requirement is deterring skilled people from returning and contributing to their countries. They are also concerned that the five years over 50 residence requirement may induce some people to return to New Zealand in order to ensure that they will be able to claim New Zealand superannuation or veterans\u2019 pension later on. This bill will remedy these concerns by allowing the requirement that a person have five years\u2019 residence and presence in New Zealand over the age of 50 years to be met instead with residence and presence in New Zealand, the Cook Islands, Niue, or Tokelau, or any combination of those countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe Social Services and Community Committee has examined the bill and recommends that it be passed without amendment, and I want to acknowledge and thank the members of that select committee for the work they have done on this bill. One of the issues raised in the submissions on the bill was the effect the changes would have on the economic activity of Niue. It was suggested that the bill could have a detrimental effect on the economic activity in Niue by creating an incentive for Niueans to live in New Zealand in order to become eligible for New Zealand superannuation or veterans pension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThis bill is about supporting the economic and social viability of the Pacific Realm countries. Depopulation and its related social and economic consequences is a longstanding issue for these Islands. This bill will reduce the incentive for people to return to New Zealand in order to satisfy the five years over 50 requirements, and this will help boost economic development and human resource capacity by allowing highly skilled people to continue to contribute to their communities in these countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIt was also suggested that full entitlement to New Zealand superannuation and veterans\u2019 pension should be extended to all New Zealand citizens in Niue, regardless of whether they have resided in New Zealand. This would not align with New Zealand\u2019s approach to superannuation, in which the residency requirements are there to ensure that a person who is applying for New Zealand superannuation or veterans pension has a connection to New Zealand. Also, the constitutional arrangements in Niue mean that they are responsible for their own tax and welfare systems. I want to thank those who took the time and effort to make submissions to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAnother submitter raised concerns about the implementation of the changes, and suggested that the application process be automatic, if possible. The Ministry of Social Development is working with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade to consider how to provide services for applicants. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade has an established presence in the Islands, and already has local relationships and infrastructure in place. To expedite an initial backlog of applications when the bill is passed, people will be able to register that they intend to apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI want to reiterate that this Government wants to continue to show that we value our Pacific neighbours and acknowledge our constitutional ties with the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau\u2014after all, they are family to many of us. The citizens of these nations share New Zealand citizenship and through this bill we\u2019re able to better respond to the needs of those citizens. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002268a077b6f349468f92bc7a6f60feaf2b\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da3cb16e4c064fc2916e95bf9f348e46\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022d34ca1e4ade647a4b7e85278acf8855d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d34ca1e4ade647a4b7e85278acf8855d\u0022\u003EHon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to make a personal explanation, correcting an answer given during oral question No. 8 today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280e5b9dd088d45439017abff6268813e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Does anyone object to that? Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbf23a23cd0548869c381779dc85fc2e\u0022\u003EHon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. During oral question No. 8 today, the Hon Gerry Brownlee asked, \u201CWhen the Minister said yesterday, in an answer to a question, that the ACC accounts were very full and that they needed to be rebalanced down, did he convey that Government position to the board of ACC, and is he concerned that the board of ACC did not listen to him in preparing a consultation document that has motor vehicle levies going up?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI did not need to convey that position to ACC, because, under the Accident Compensation Act 2001, ACC is required to give effect to the Government funding policy statement on ACC levies, which requires ACC to target a funding band of between 100 and 110 percent of reported liabilities, and also requires ACC to make adjustments to levy rates that would achieve that target funding band over a 10-year horizon, should current accounts be outside of that band. That funding policy statement was gazetted on 10 May 2016 by the Hon Nikki Kaye.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022 data-id=\u00224ab800429b204b40828a38b304bcd27e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ab800429b204b40828a38b304bcd27e\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. A personal statement is made in the House to correct an error or a misleading statement given to the House. The Minister has answered the question a second time. What\u2019s the error or misleading statement he\u2019s apologising or notifying the House about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022e57170ab148f449c908a07a0184e9703\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e57170ab148f449c908a07a0184e9703\u0022\u003EHon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E There was some back and forth\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc7c1a25b5de46a583e748c51cfbf5eb\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5f81549e3554714ad28379317d6e617\u0022\u003EHon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014about the answer to this question. I believe the Speaker indicated that the answer had not enlightened the House, as to the answer to the question. I have come to the House in order to provide the information the House required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022858b71d5d66f4161b3205fa40eb0289f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022858b71d5d66f4161b3205fa40eb0289f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think it probably would have been better if he\u2019d sought leave to clarify the answer rather than correct, because, in fact, the point of order is correct: there is no correction, but you did explain to the House the answer to the question. In fairness, there was considerable back and forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002210d320262e174eec955cd5701218ffe8\u0022\u003ESocial Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002293870cd73566499bbeed2cb552c5ee68\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000399\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u002267e4c3a6fab740a3847ffd7d65eaa3a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267e4c3a6fab740a3847ffd7d65eaa3a0\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I rise in the second reading of the Social Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill and will put on record that National will, of course, be supporting this legislation in the second reading. There was, of course, a prime ministerial visit last year by Rt Hon Bill English to the Pacific, where he made the undertaking that this issue would be resolved. That\u2019s why National is pleased to support this legislation. Unfortunately, there is a lot of legislation that is supported around the House that doesn\u2019t usually make headlines, but I know this particular legislation will make a significant difference even though the media might not report it and be singing it from the rooftops.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis is about making the superannuation requirements fairer for residents of the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau. So it is, of course, nice that this is getting its second reading in Tokelau Language Week. But also, as the MP for Taup\u014D, I have a significant Cook Island population, and I know this is an issue they\u2019ve raised and this is an issue that will make a difference to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EFor those listeners or viewers who have just tuned in to this particular debate, there is a requirement at the moment, which came into effect in 2015, that has a New Zealand superannuation residence requirement of five years\u2019 residence from the age of 50\u2014what\u2019s more commonly known as the five years after 50 rule. What it means for those in the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau, which we have particular constitutional arrangements with in New Zealand\u2014a very special relationship\u2014is that it was actually deterring skilled people from returning to those countries, which, in many cases, desperately need the skills of that population. Instead, it was kind of forcing them to remain in New Zealand, which had an economic impact on those home countries. So this is a practical and sensible change that, as I said, the former Prime Minister the Rt Hon Bill English had committed to in the Pacific in June last year. So I do want to commend the Government for making this a priority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI was on the select committee that considered this legislation. It\u2019s an interesting select committee. We have bills like this that are very simple and straightforward. There were seven submitters, and the submitters did raise a number of issues. The Minister has gone through those in detail, so it\u2019s not my expectation to traverse that ground again. I do want to just say, though, if any of the submitters are listening to this debate or will read the Hansard subsequently, the issues absolutely were considered by the select committee. They were considered at length and discussed at length. The overall decision, though, was that the bill wouldn\u2019t be changed as was presented to the select committee. And, as I say, the Minister who spoke before me, Minister Sio, I think traversed those issues well, and I don\u2019t intend to do it. The Social Services and Community Committee has other legislation that is not quite so straightforward but is also unanimously supported, like child poverty legislation, that has taken a significant amount of work and cooperation to get back to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo, in terms of this piece of legislation, the Social Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill, it absolutely recognises the special relationship that New Zealand has with the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau. While we welcome the right of people from these countries to live in New Zealand, it\u2019s also really important that we give them the equal opportunity to live in their original Islands, and we don\u2019t want to be imposing something that actually, by way of providing a superannuation payment to someone, is then detrimental to the home economies, and, at the same time, we are making sure that those individuals aren\u2019t punished by not receiving or qualifying for the superannuation payment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo it is a simple change. The cost identified to taxpayers is actually very little. One of the numbers that was considered, for example: it was thought that perhaps, if this wasn\u2019t progressed, about 200 people would delay their departure back to the Cook Islands, Niue, or Tokelau until they reached the age of 65. They would then have qualified for the residency and for the New Zealand superannuation and then travelled back. So it\u2019s not a large number who are affected, but for those individuals and their families and the three countries involved, actually, it\u2019s a significant benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo, for those listening, it\u2019s a fairly simple piece of legislation, but it will have wide-ranging impacts. I want to thank my parliamentary colleagues on the select committee for the work that was done on this, and to make sure that this legislation progresses with reasonable pace so that those individuals and families and the three countries of the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau receive the adequate benefit. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00223dbcdf10c90c4b5581fb8ef646541fd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dbcdf10c90c4b5581fb8ef646541fd5\u0022\u003EPRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Malo ni, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is with particular delight that I rise to speak in favour of the Social Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill, that will affect the people of Tokelau as we celebrate Tokelauan Language Week this week. I think previous speakers have outlined what this bill does in quite a lot of detail, so I don\u2019t feel the need to go into too much detail, except to say that, of course, it is about greater pension flexibility for retirement. It alters some of the residential qualifications that allow New Zealanders and New Zealand citizens from the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau to retire in any one of those countries\u2014including, of course, New Zealand\u2014or in any combination of those countries, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s an important bill because it responds to some of the concerns that have been raised by the Governments of those Islands as well in terms of the economic and social losses that they have experienced because, for example, of depopulation that arises from those residential qualification requirements. To be counted towards the New Zealand superannuation or the veterans\u2019 pension qualification, the qualification requirement is for five years\u2019 residence and presence in New Zealand after the age of 50. I just want to point out that the requirement for 10 years\u2019 residence in New Zealand over the age of 20 remains a core entitlement requirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ENow, of course, again\u2014as has been mentioned previously as well\u2014people born in the Cook Islands, Niue, or Tokelau share New Zealand citizenship. Therefore, New Zealand has an obligation to respond to the needs of these citizens as well, and this bill reflects those constitutional responsibilities that we have for the citizens of those Islands. This is a Government that is committed to a Pacific reset, and this bill contributes to the continued strengthening and the growing of that relationship that we have with our Pacific neighbours from the point of view, of course, that we are also part of the Pacific. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. It will help and will be particularly well-received by our Pacific populations here in New Zealand as well as those in the Islands, and it is with pleasure that I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022a524f0fae9a94e3da5fd7ae0c21e14b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a524f0fae9a94e3da5fd7ae0c21e14b6\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I think it\u2019s appropriate to begin in the languages of the Realm, so kia orana, faakalofa atu, malo ni, kia ora, and hello. Look, it\u2019s a real pleasure to speak on the Social Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill. A little bit like with a piece of legislation last evening, I don\u2019t actually sit on the social services bill, but I\u2019m speaking on this as I hold\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022691ade6a1309455eba836b7d4d6a26ba\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b6a9f5de7f14792a6d0b5738ff397c6\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014two associate\u2014sorry, on this committee, thank you. It isn\u2019t a very good start, is it? Thank you very much. However, I now have nine minutes and 24 seconds to make good. I don\u2019t sit on the committee. However, I have two associate portfolios\u2014which is really going badly. I\u2019m just so excited to get to talk about the Realm. It\u2019s going to be great, particularly with Prince Harry and Meghan coming here\u2014where could this go? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut, in all seriousness, it\u2019s two associate spokesperson-ships that I hold in this area, and I\u2019m delighted to talk on this social assistance legislation bill because, in effect, it\u2019s a National Party bill. Actually, without throwing too many brickbats, it\u2019s another example of legislation being put forward in this House\u2014rightly under the new Government\u2019s name but, actually, National Party originated\u2014and this particular part is from the Rt Hon Bill English, or should I more correctly say now, seeing he is a knight of the Realm, Sir Bill English. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ll go through a little bit of the history in a moment, but this, as I say, is the second reading of a good bill. There were seven people who submitted and two who did so orally, and by that, I mean that they came to the committee and discussed matters. The report back from the committee\u2014the Minister who resumed the chair earlier has traversed some of that, and it\u2019s not my intention to do so. But, fundamentally, this is a progression in New Zealand\u2019s laws. In this case, it\u2019s around its superannuation and veterans payments, to recognise not only the rights, if you will, of those who reach retirement age to access their entitlements but, I think, importantly\u2014and really importantly\u2014actually, there are consequences of New Zealand being a realm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not always known, but some of the language in this House and otherwise can sometimes get blurred. We talk about New Zealand as being a State or as a country, but, actually, we are a Realm. We are a Realm because our head of State is Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, and under that Realm, New Zealand sits as an independent country. The Cook Islands and Niue also share the Queen of New Zealand as their head of State and are in free association with New Zealand, and Tokelau is a dependent territory. Granted, they have sought referenda before to discuss whether to move into free association with New Zealand or, if they so chose, to go completely independent. They have, up to this point in time, not done so, and they remain, as I say, a dependent territory with, rather than under, the Queen of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo the Realm of New Zealand is actually larger than simply the North Island, South Island, and the Chathams and Stewart islands. It also includes the Cooks, Niue, Tokelau, and, actually\u2014if it\u2019s of the curiosity interest\u2014the Ross Dependency. So New Zealand is more than what we initially think, and it makes a lot of sense to me that if we\u2019re going to have a realm and if we\u2019re going to engage under the same head of State, actually, the same rights and privileges are accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI may go on a little bit further to see where these next expansions go, but, in terms of social assistance, up until 2015\u2014well, actually, firstly, Madam Deputy Speaker, we need to acknowledge this as an omnibus bill. In other words\u2014and as you would know\u2014as an omnibus bill it\u2019s affecting two pieces of legislation: obviously, the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act 2001 and the Veterans\u2019 Support Act, more recently updated in 2014. People, at this point in time, over 65 who are to become eligible have had to have lived in New Zealand for at least 10 years since they became 20. So people have to be resident in New Zealand, but, importantly, and as other speakers have indicated, you need to have lived in New Zealand for at least five years once you\u2019re over the age of 50.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThis is where the little complications began to kick in. So the problem we are seeking to solve is that New Zealanders who are eligible, or would normally be eligible, for superannuation: in New Zealand, everything was fine; those New Zealanders living in other parts of the Realm\u2014obviously, the likes of Niue or Tokelau, for example\u2014were not eligible. In fact, their living in that part of the Realm meant that they could not be seen as resident for five years. In a sense, to make matters worse, they had to, if they were in those parts of the Realm, come back to New Zealand to apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo in 2015 changes were made so that a New Zealander living, let\u2019s say, in the Cook Islands would no longer have to come back to apply in New Zealand. So that was part of it: not only five years in New Zealand but you had to be in New Zealand to make an application. So we, in 2015, fixed that requirement. People were able to apply from the Realm, which makes sense, and this piece of legislation as agreed by the Rt Hon Bill English in 2015\u2014no, it must have been nearer 2017; I\u2019d have to double check those dates\u2014said, \u201CNo; actually, living in the Cook Islands, living in Niue, living in Tokelau\u2014that will count towards the five years over 50.\u201D And I think that\u2019s really, really prudent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAgain, I think, first and foremost, it\u2019s good for the person who is going to receive the superannuation, of course. They want to receive the money. It\u2019s their entitlement. They\u2019ve worked hard for New Zealand. It\u2019s obviously good for those parts of the Realm: the Cooks, Tokelau, and Niue. Those people are able to remain there, to be resident there, and to, obviously, spend their superannuation there. That\u2019s a positive. Others have talked about keeping those skills there. I would add, on top of all of that, that there are just good social benefits as well. People do not like having to move around unnecessarily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s incredibly positive there as well, but I think, much wider than that, it sends an incredibly strong signal that New Zealand is a realm. The way that we are constitutionally structured is finally being reflected in our legislation\u2014that, actually, these places, in free association or as a dependent territory, as Tokelau and Ross Dependency are, are part of New Zealand and they should be treated equally and as such.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EReally, just to illustrate the point, up until this legislation goes through, living in the Cook Islands or living in Tokelau doesn\u2019t seem to count, even though it\u2019s part of the Realm, for that five-year entitlement. It would be akin to saying, \u201CWell, I\u2019m sorry. All of those who live in\u201D\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014\u201CHavelock North or Dunedin, sorry; you don\u2019t count.\u201D It\u2019s as if we\u2019re dividing up, I would argue, arbitrarily, where the lines go. And it\u2019s a slight contradiction because, at the moment, things like our exclusive economic zone and our military and diplomatic capacities are based off those territories, off those areas of free association like the Cook Islands. There\u2019s some element of connection already, and it makes a lot of sense to me that we continue to emphasise the importance of New Zealand\u2019s constitutional structures. And one of the best ways to do that\u2014other than, obviously, educating people\u2014is to make sure that the constitutional actions and our laws reflect that: in other words, that there\u2019s equality for all of those people within the Realm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s my hope that as time goes on this is not the last piece of legislation we bring to the House that makes it really clear that all of those\u2014all of us, in fact; all of us\u2014who live in New Zealand, who live in the Ross Dependency or work down there, or who live in Tokelau, the Cook Islands, or Niue are all under the one head of State, and therefore we should reflect that, in a sense, uniqueness\u2014because it is not all that usual. But that uniqueness should be reflected not only in social assistance but also in the areas of travel\u2014how we actually move across those territories. That raises, obviously, much wider discussions around the freedom of movement, visas, passports, and so forth and what is required there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI think too it ensures that we must have a mature conversation as, if you will, the one people in multiple areas within this Realm of New Zealand on how our relationship continues\u2014importantly, together. If we wish to separate things out, I just think that\u2019s fundamentally important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo we are wholeheartedly in support of this legislation and happy that it\u2019s processed through the select committee. It seems like a very robust process. I think the recommendations and the way that the issues have been articulated are particularly positive. I look forward to it progressing swiftly through the House and other contributions as we count down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002272ee8d73166e4dd78d9d3bab1c4d320a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272ee8d73166e4dd78d9d3bab1c4d320a\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Well, I do need to put on the record a couple of things. It\u2019s been very interesting sitting in here listening to some of the speeches from the Opposition benches, and I really do hate to upset the atmosphere of collaboration, cooperation, and mutual admiration that does seem to be befalling us right now, but one cannot let some things go by, particularly with this being the 25th anniversary of the birth of New Zealand First\u2014well, not this day, but this year. Right from the outset, the Rt Hon Winston Peters has championed and advocated for this law change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been interesting listening to various National Party speakers talking about how they support this legislation and talking about how it\u2019s good that this inequity, this anomaly, this injustice is now being corrected. The Rt Hon Bill English promised in 2017\u2014he just happened to be on the election trail at that time\u2014that he would correct this anomaly, this error, this inconsistency. I do recall that the Hon Murray McCully, likewise, whilst he was flitting around the South Pacific as the Minister of Foreign Affairs, having heard the representations from Pacific Island leaders, both here in New Zealand and back in the Cook Islands, in Niue, and in Tokelau, also promised to redress this anomaly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI do recall very clearly, on 29 April 2015, as we debated the Social Assistance (Portability to Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau) Bill in its second reading, a speech from the Rt Hon Winston Peters, where he pleaded with the then National Government Minister the Hon Alfred Ngaro to accept his Supplementary Order Paper that would have redressed this very matter. And what happened? See, one would assume from all of the speeches thus far from the National Party that they agreed. Well, clearly, they didn\u2019t agree, because that\u2019s why we\u2019re having to pass this legislation now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt is just absolutely mind-boggling that the party that has opposed this tooth and nail, back as far as 1993 to now, should be asking everybody to recognise and applaud the Rt Hon Bill English, the Hon Murray McCully, and the Hon Alfred Ngaro, because this piece of legislation, apparently, my coalition colleagues, is a National Party - birthed child. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022575442f3986f4a06bc1228b4687da31f\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, that\u2019s what they\u2019re saying, isn\u2019t it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b24eb90a9b9b441d8948a528a086dade\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Apparently. Well, it is far from that. Then we go back to 29 April 2015 and read the words where the Rt Hon Winston Peters was pleading. He was saying, \u201CWe have a Supplementary Order Paper in respect of this bill, because this \u2026 bill\u201D\u2014being portability to Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau bill, which was the National Party bill\u2014\u201Cis extraordinarily biased and prejudicial towards Realm countries in the Pacific.\u201D He said, \u201CMinister of Foreign Affairs, Murray McCully, has continually emphasised the special and historic\u201D\u2014[Interruption] Here they go. They don\u2019t like it up \u2018em, do they? They don\u2019t like it up \u2018em, do they\u2014\u201Crelationship of the Realm countries, and Social Assistance (Portability to Cook Islands Niue, and Tokelau) Bill is doing just half the job.\u201D, said the Rt Hon Winston Peters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u201CWe appeal\u201D\u2014now, this is us asking. I don\u2019t want to say \u201Cbegging\u201D, because the Rt Hon Winston Peters never begs, but he does put a compelling case, and he does ask the people who say they\u2019re going to do something to stick by their word and do it. So he said, \u201CWe appeal to the Minister to finish what he started and amend the agreement to exempt the Realm countries from section 8(c), and that is what our Supplementary Order Paper will be [all] about.\u201D And\u2014hello\u2014what are we doing right now? We\u2019re exempting section 8(c), and the audacity\u2014the audacity, my coalition colleagues\u2014is that that lot want to sit over there now and reap some sort of credit. Some credit? You have got to be joking me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fc7273b472a44538c2c91e36cb85e89\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c833c421cdd14f3dbeb97e713b43f76e\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Seriously, they\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ef457838fd34f678e9a3164042ab906\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not. Could you come to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b336c6c7f8f4ad0992884077279e037\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Madam Deputy Speaker, I apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c8b1acb59704a5cad6a01e43cb57c5d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would you come to the bill before us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022301d3906541e4778a4251b18f8139046\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am talking to the bill\u2014section 8(c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ec40f9136324d0a8d2a183e7d87a30d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m sorry, but you don\u2019t argue with the Speaker. I have asked you to come to the bill. You\u2019ve read something from years ago. I would like you to address the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022088a5758b3c4499196be4eda89b2f88e\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The bill, the Social Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill\u2014which we are supporting in New Zealand First\u2014waives section 8(c), which is the five years after 50 rule. Why do we believe in doing that? Because it was wrong. It actually discriminated against people who are New Zealanders. It required these people to leave their Realm country and to come back to New Zealand to fulfil that five years\u2019 requirement to qualify, and that is the very point that has been argued in this House for decades\u2014decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt is nice to see that after 25 years, we are putting it right. It\u2019s interesting that when we look at these people who have been simply asked as New Zealanders to be treated correctly\u2014and I do say, we have to acknowledge that on this day of the second reading of this bill, a Mr Les Priest, who has represented in the Rarotonga and New Zealand superannuation lobby group of Cook Islanders and expatriate Kiwis, these citizens, for so long and so well. This has been a long battle for these people, fighting for many, many years. It is satisfying that we get to this point on the second reading with the unanimous support of the House, and I do thank the National Party for finally getting to this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EBut I do not think it\u2019s unreasonable to remind the nation at this second reading of how good this bill is and the tortuous path that has been walked to get section 8(c) and the five years after 50 rule finally dealt with. It has caused inappropriate dislocation. It has caused disruption. It has caused relocation. It has caused a breakdown in the social cohesion of the countries involved. It has caused people who have returned to their land, having gained wonderful skill sets here in New Zealand in the decades that they\u2019ve lived here and paid taxes, who\u2019ve gone back, transferring those skills, taking money with them, and investing their time, their knowledge, their skills, their talent, and their money back in their countries, in their own islands\u2014to have to then up sticks to come back here to New Zealand to complete those five years so that they might qualify for something that was always rightfully theirs. That another Government could not recognise that in the last term is very, very sad. It\u2019s sad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI\u2019d only encourage those National Party members\u2014and I congratulate them for voting for this legislation here today and on supporting it through to third reading\u2014all to go back up to their Pacific Island communities and apologise. You know, certain National Party Ministers gained honours and recognition from these Pacific Island nations on the back of promises that they made and did not keep. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI think, in amongst all of this, the one man who has stood true to his word steadfastly for the last 25 years on this very issue, and who is now the Deputy Prime Minister and enjoying the pleasure of seeing it enacted\u2014and I thank the Opposition party for coming along with us on this ride\u2014is the Rt Hon Winston Peters, who made those points to, sadly, deaf ears on 29 April 2015. Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00229f622849c7754d9a948c8d8a3d53cc0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f622849c7754d9a948c8d8a3d53cc0d\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Assistant Speaker. I stand today in support of the Social Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill in its second reading. It\u2019s a little bit of an anti-climax for me to stand and speak, considering I\u2019ve just followed the deputy leader\u2019s speech. It\u2019s a great pitch, Ron Mark, and if we\u2019re scoring you, you would be right up there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245aa6ae5ac9c419cbbfe385fed30a8fb\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It was a challenge. He wants the job back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e47ad5c6c484054b4ce1843029d880b\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH\u003C/span\u003E: We know he wants the job. We\u2019ve had some very enlightened and sometimes irrelevant contributions on this bill during this round of reading, the second reading, but I will do my best to maintain my focus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThis is an omnibus bill and my understanding of the use of \u201Comnibus\u201D means that it reflects some changes in more than one bill, which this one certainly does, and it makes changes to the New Zealand superannuation and the veterans\u2019 pension. The purpose of the bill is to allow people from the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau to be able to be resident in New Zealand for a minimum of 10 years after the age of 20 and five years after the age of 50 to qualify for New Zealand super\u2014the bill will, in fact, mean that that New Zealand residency post-50, so the five years after 50, will actually apply in the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EOne of the main reasons behind this change is that there was concern in those Islands about the depopulation of those Islands to New Zealand in order to qualify for the New Zealand superannuation or veterans\u2019 pension. By having those five years after 50, at that age people are probably well settled here in this country, there was less motivation perhaps to go back to the Islands for their retirement, instead preferring to stay in New Zealand where their families are. A motivator for coming to New Zealand in the first place, as we heard during the submission period, was to further education or to come here for work or to reconnect with family that were already resident here. So now this bill is proposing that, provided they have spent 10 years here in New Zealand after the age of 20, their return to the Cook Islands, Niue, or Tokelau after the age of 50 for five years, will mean that they will qualify for New Zealand superannuation or veterans\u2019 pension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThere were seven submissions made to the select committee; two oral submissions, including a very impassioned one from the High Commissioner from Niue. His submission was suggesting that the 10 years after 20 and the five years after 50 would apply in any of the countries of the Realm, and although it was quite an ambitious request, the committee and the advisers did suggest it was far outside of the scope of the intention of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThere were concerns raised during the submission period that this bill was actually not complying with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act of 1990 and one of the submitters had actually taken a case to Human Rights Review Tribunal based on this, but the advice received was that this did appear to be consistent with the rights and freedoms as in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and so as a result there were no changes suggested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMy contribution to this debate is actually going to be about the suggestion one submitter had, which was that all of the Pacific Islands be included in this bill, which of course deemed it out of scope for the contribution. But I thought it was an opportune time to pay tribute to the other Pacific Islands, because I know from the area I am in, West Coast - Tasman, that the Pacific Islands and the contribution they make to our Recognised Seasonal Employer (RSE) schemes\u2014and then, further, to the economic prosperity of not only the areas they come to work in here in New Zealand but their own country when their funds are able to go back\u2014absolutely makes a different to us all. I think that partnership is invaluable to all of those Islands. There are 11,100 places available, as at the end of last year, for RSE workers, and I think it is a fine opportunity to pay tribute to them, and I\u2019m sure the orchardists and vineyards around New Zealand would also accept that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EIn coming to a close, I\u2019m actually going to suggest that we shelve this bill. The reason for that is last week Mark Patterson from New Zealand First was fortunate to have his member\u2019s bill drawn from the ballot; the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income (Fair Residency) Amendment Bill. Now, I congratulate Mark Patterson. He\u2019s been quite lucky in having that one drawn. I think he\u2019s had two drawn in the short time he\u2019s been here. He stated very confidently that he believes he\u2019s going to get support across the House for his member\u2019s bill. But what that will do is actually make the residency requirement 20 years here in New Zealand, so it looks like we\u2019re going to be debating two separate bills that are conflicting in terms of the outcome that is required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EWe have not had that discussion as a caucus, but that proposal was actually put forward, as the Hon Ron Mark has already mentioned today, by National, by Sir Bill English last year, in June, I believe it was. So it is a concept that National has supported in the past, but with two bills now, with two different time frames attached to them, it seems only logical that we should put this bill and this debate on hold while we see the outcome of this new bill that has been introduced into the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI will wind up my contribution by just talking to some of the other submissions that were heard by the Social Services and Community Committee. One of those was about the objectives around the constitutional arrangements that we have with Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau\u2014[Visitors enter gallery] A colourful contribution in the House today!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EOne of the submitters, as I talked about before, said that this could apply to the other 22 countries in the Pacific, and our contribution back was that the provisions that are already in our arrangements around the 10 years after 20 and the five years after 50 was applicable to all of those other Islands, and that we would not be making any further changes to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe bill as it\u2019s been presented to the House is unchanged from the original, and even though we did have some very good contributions from our submitters, I think that we\u2019ve found a good place. I think also that if the House is of the opinion that we should delay having any further debate on this bill while we see what the alternative bill of Mark Patterson\u2019s comes to, then I think that would be a very appropriate outcome. With that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022357003a575554fe8bbdbccec2ae2745f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022357003a575554fe8bbdbccec2ae2745f\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Kia orana. Fakaalofa atu ki a koe. Malo ni, tau huhuga te Takitaki Fono. It\u2019s a great pleasure to rise on behalf of the Green Party and offer our support as well to this second reading of the Social Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill. I will just say upfront that I\u2019m not feeling compelled to draw this out for the full 10 minutes, because this is actually quite a simple bill. We have debated this, and the community has been calling for this for a long time, and there is unanimous support, thankfully, in this House. The Green Party has long supported this change, possibly not as long as New Zealand First, I hear, but still quite a long time. It\u2019s great to see us get to this milestone in the House and get unanimous support for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EFor anybody who may be listening that is new to this, what this legislation does\u2014the purpose is to alter the residential qualifications for New Zealand superannuation and the veterans pension to allow the requirement that a person also has five years\u2019 residence and presence in New Zealand over the age of 50, to be met instead with residence and presence in New Zealand, the Cook Islands, Niue, or Tokelau, or any combination of these countries in that territory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe reason for this change is to take into account those close constitutional relationships with the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau. As it is really important to note\u2014and I think the Premier of Niue was pointing out quite strongly\u2014we do need to remember that often people from those countries feel as if it\u2019s often forgotten that they are indeed citizens of New Zealand. This bill reflects that constitutional responsibility that New Zealand has for all its citizens living in those Pacific countries in that territory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe current settings shift it from needing to have five years after the age of 50, being here, to being able to be in any of those areas, which I think is great. It specifically addresses the concern that while people may come to New Zealand to connect with wider family and look for further education opportunities or particular career prospects, often there\u2019s a significant group of people who may at the age of 50, or around then, look to be returning to their home base and wanting to bring those skills and that knowledge back home. And the current policy settings that we have at the moment are preventing that. That\u2019s been a real challenge, in terms of those communities at home, where they have\u2014and I remind New Zealanders about some of the challenges for those communities of populations. I think, in Niue, the population right now is only 1,626, from the last count; in Tokelau, 1,325; and in Cook Islands it\u2019s around 17,500. You need all your people on board, and you need as many people with skills as you can get to be able to get your community functioning well and building business and contributing to the running of the State. So it\u2019s been a real shame that our policy settings here have acted against people returning home to contribute and to support those communities and countries. It\u2019s fantastic to see this shift back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Social Services and Community Committee, actually, for their report on this bill. It\u2019s one of the more plain-English reports that I\u2019ve seen that directly responds to the concerns that people raised. They didn\u2019t recommend any changes to the bill, but they explicitly outlined the concerns that people had raised through their submissions. And there were only seven, and only two oral submissions, but they went through those concerns and addressed them in a committee report, which is not actually that common\u2014in my experience\u2014to see it so clearly outlined. I really appreciated it, as not having been part of that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThey pointed to some people having a concern that maybe this set up different requirements for residency for people who were born in New Zealand versus the Cook Islands, Niue, or Tokelau, around the 10 years after the age of 20. We\u2019ve had that clarified by the officials: that that isn\u2019t the case; that that is the same for somebody who is born in New Zealand as it is for people born in the Cook Islands, Niue, or Tokelau. Also, there was a bit of a concern that maybe this could have an impact on economic activity in Niue, and people thought that maybe it would reduce the incentive for people to return to New Zealand in order to satisfy the requirement for five years. They suggested that full entitlement to New Zealand super and the veterans pension should be extended to all citizens living in Niue, which shifted the settings so that it would be different to what it is in all of the countries. So the advice that was offered to the committee\u2014and accepted by the committee\u2014was recognising that it\u2019s trying to get the consistency across, and recognising, as well, that the constitutional arrangements in the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau mean that each realm is responsible for their own tax and welfare system. So that is up to that point of superannuation\u2014that it seemed to be consistent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThere was the suggestion of extending the changes to all other countries in the Pacific. And I think, fairly, it was considered by the committee that the purpose of the bill is an acknowledgement of the special relationship and the fact that we all have New Zealand citizenship. So that is the reason for this specific focus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThere were concerns raised about the implementation, and assurances have been given that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade will be working closely in-country to support people to be able to access this support. So, in conclusion, the Greens are, again, very happy to support this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u002219b0500a46244c81b375db23391abaa7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219b0500a46244c81b375db23391abaa7\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Malo ni, tau huhuga te Takitaki Fono. Madam Assistant Speaker, happy Tokelauan Language Week\u2014just had to get that right. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak to the Social Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill. I\u2019d like to apologise to all the people of Tokelau for my poor linguistic ability. I\u2019ll stick to English, which is my mother tongue, for the duration of this speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0e3aa53adf04f35821ad780196bc0f7\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Among many other things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1bfa86787f4457b8bf0e9d296431c46\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I was also reminded, with the colour that was just in the House about five minutes ago, that it is also appropriate for me to say \u201CHappy Diwali.\u201D For everybody in New Zealand, it was a fantastic celebration last weekend, and I\u2019ll be continuing to celebrate that this weekend. I\u2019ve got about 2,000 people in my electorate of Northcote who celebrate that, and it\u2019s just a fantastic celebration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a pleasure to talk to what is an important bill today. The purpose of this bill, and the way I see it, is threefold: the first is around flexibility, the second is around fairness, and the third is around contributing to local economies in the Realm. We are very happy to support this bill because it allows people who are from the Realm of the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau the ability to come to New Zealand and contribute to the New Zealand economy, but also to go back to their home countries\u2014or their countries of origin\u2014and continue to contribute to those economies and, at the same time, fulfil their residency requirements for New Zealand super or for the veteran\u2019s pension. It\u2019s also about fairness, and it\u2019s about those who contribute to New Zealand and who have the ability to access their New Zealand super also being able to access super wherever they are in the Realm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EFinally, it\u2019s around contributing to our local economies. I see this as actually a very important bill for helping to provide remittances back to these local economies, to provide the skills and expertise of all these people who have worked here, who have got New Zealand connections and expertise, to go back to their home countries once they\u2019ve turned 50\u2014or are over 50\u2014and be able to contribute to their local economies. I would certainly love to acknowledge, Madam Assistant Speaker, your origins, in coming from the Cook Islands, and also our colleague on this side of House, Alfred Ngaro, because both of you come from the Cook Islands as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EOf course, we cannot underestimate the importance of our relationship with the Cook Islands, Tokelau, and Niue, both from a historic perspective, dating back somewhat to 1946, in terms of the South Pacific Commission, but also the political and economic relationship that we share together today. It really is by way of a constitutional relationship. The people in these countries are New Zealand citizens, and this bill extends the same level of rights that they have in order to get access to the pension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ESo what is the policy problem that this bill is trying to solve? Well, certainly, it\u2019s around the 10-year residency requirement for pensioners to get the pension. I would like to acknowledge the fantastic contribution from my colleague Maureen Pugh, who outlined that there is a member\u2019s bill that will, in fact, extend this requirement to 20 years. So if that progresses through the House, then we\u2019ll need to discuss the implications for this bill. It\u2019s also around the next requirement, which is around the five years above 50\u2014this idea that you have to stay in New Zealand over 50 years of age in order to qualify for the pension. This bill, essentially, does away with that so that people from Niue, Cook Islands, or Tokelau may go back to their countries, contribute to their local economies, and also fulfil the requirements for the New Zealand super or pension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ENow, other options were considered in the select committee process. The option that was really chosen by the select committee was an option that removes the disincentives for people to move to the Islands and to contribute to their local economy. It\u2019s also the option that retains the core principles of New Zealand superannuation, which means that you must stay here for a certain number of years and work here in New Zealand and you also must work in these countries in order to satisfy the requirements. Because of our special relationship, it is believed that if you\u2019re in the Realm, no matter where you are, you\u2019re fulfilling the requirements for this bill. So that was the option that the select committee chose for this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI do want to go through some of the submissions from the select committee. Essentially, we did receive seven submissions in total\u2014not a lot but certainly very substantial and high-quality submissions at that. Two of those submissions were received orally, and I was there at that meeting when we heard them, one of them from the High Commissioner to this area. Essentially, there were three key arguments that were raised against this bill. The first was that there is potential to discriminate in this bill between those who are from this Realm versus those who are not from this Realm. I want to assure the submitters that this bill doesn\u2019t in fact discriminate\u2014that anybody, no matter where they are from, can move to these countries after they\u2019re 50. Perhaps you\u2019ve come from South Africa, for example\u2014we\u2019ve got a lot of South Africans in my electorate. You\u2019ve come from South Africa at 45, you work right up until 50, and you decide, \u201CWell, Niue, Tokelau, and Cook Islands\u2014they\u2019re beautiful pieces to live, and maybe I\u2019d like to retire there.\u201D So it actually gives these people the opportunity to go to these countries and also fulfil the requirements for the New Zealand super or veterans pension. So, in fact, it doesn\u2019t discriminate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThe second point that was raised in the select committee submissions was that there would be an unfair advantage for people from those Islands. I\u2019ve just demonstrated that there will not in fact be an unfair advantage from these Islands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThe final thing that was raised was around the economic impact of this bill, and there was a sense that\u2014[Bell rung] ha, ha; Madam Assistant Speaker was so engrossed in my speech that she forgot to do the buzzer\u2014the economic value would actually be harmed by this bill. I want to assure the submitters that I actually think the opposite: this bill has the potential to add a significant amount of economic value to these countries through remittances and also through the economic activity of these people in these countries while they\u2019re fulfilling the requirements for their pension. So there you have it: those are the major flaws that were raised in the submission process, and I\u2019ve managed to dispel some of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to spend the last kind of minute just talking about the select committee, and I\u2019d like to thank all the members on the select committee for their tiresome work in hearing the submissions. There were\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247cea9c24d86453e88bee42f7332a1ad\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Tireless, I think you mean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216d8478f9593462cb5437e544c44fd1a\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: Tireless\u2014tireless. Thank you to my colleague Brett Hudson. It has been a long week. I\u2019d just like to say that this is a good bill, and it\u2019s a good bill that I believe is going to get\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeeb972f87884e4eb4bfdfaaf974ed22\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a good bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227da652d90c3b4de2984a99948b4ccba0\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014bill?\u2014a lot of support in the House, and I\u2019m looking forward to seeing all of those people who contribute to New Zealand\u2019s economy also being able to access New Zealand super. Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00226f0ecb54866045db8a7d0c0ad4a250e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f0ecb54866045db8a7d0c0ad4a250e0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand this is a split call. Greg O\u2019Connor, you have five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227a5436e6f0654414b66087b163356999\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a5436e6f0654414b66087b163356999\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Assistant Speaker, I\u2019m confident you won\u2019t have as much difficulty concentrating on my presentation as you did on the last.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f3199b9e0094c2994e6e11cda5a74c3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I wouldn\u2019t back myself on that, Mr O\u2019Connor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022660072d5555a403f8ae8f9e255579ac7\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just say that\u2014sorry, Madam Assistant Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0a6933a3fd4239ab28d3dd95b1e085\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I said I wouldn\u2019t back myself on that, Mr O\u2019Connor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261a2a27f41274dd8ba28f666daa7a96f\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll do my best, Madam Assistant Speaker, at this time of day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been a part of the Social Services and Community Committee that has considered this bill. It is a very collegial select committee and, like many select committees, we have considered many aspects of this bill. You come into the House to speak, and you think you\u2019ve pretty much covered it. We\u2019ve had the benefit of the Hon Ron Mark, who has filled in many of the details that we weren\u2019t aware of, and I think it\u2019s very good that we know much more background to put things in perspective. However, it is late on a Thursday afternoon, and I think it\u2019s probably apt that in that spirit of congeniality we continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EI think everyone\u2019s sort of claiming some sort of credit for this bill. There\u2019s an old saying that success has a thousand fathers; failure is an orphan. In this case, I think if there were to be a paternity test, I\u2019d be confident that this side of the House is where the results would lie positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EHowever, to the bill itself\u2014a lot of the commentary around this bill has been talking about some sort of social benefits. I was looking at some of the comments made by a prominent broadcaster who was lambasting this as being another way that we are throwing money at the Pacific\u2014an unfortunate comment. I just want to share with you a very good example of how this is benefiting both countries economically. I speak of a relation of mine who is married to someone who is actually a Cook Islander, who was very successful in business in New Zealand\u2014ran a home-kill business. After success, he and his father went back to the Cook Islands and have re-established a similarly successful business. They now are most certainly into their over-50s and are over the qualifying period, and now seek having to come back to New Zealand to close down their business, so they will qualify for the pension under the old regime. However, this allows them now to ensure that they are able to maintain their business, that they do employ people there. So this has a direct economic benefit. So I think those of you who are watching, those who think this is another sort of handout something we\u2019re doing\u2014this is very much part of being New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe people in the Realm\u2014and one of the previous speakers, my namesake in fact, described what the Realm is. I won\u2019t go through that. Essentially, Cook Islanders, Niueans, and Tokelauans are New Zealand citizens, but there is still a qualification. They still have to have been in New Zealand for 10 years, and they have to also\u2014this is a very important part, particularly for those listening at home. The five years qualification can only be in one of those Realm countries. It can\u2019t be anywhere else in the Pacific, and that\u2019s a very important part. So it\u2019s not as though they can take off, live anywhere else\u2014live in Germany, live anywhere else\u2014it has to be in one of those Realm countries. So it is to the benefit of all. And it means that, socially, this is very much a win-win situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo in the short time allocated to me, I just want to make sure that people understand that this is very much not only fair\u2014and there\u2019s been all sorts of adjectives, all sorts of descriptors of this\u2014it actually makes economic sense as well. So this is a very important bill. It is something that, again, I can see why those opposite would be very keen to put their fingerprints on it\u2014their DNA, or whatever it is. I can understand why they\u2019d want to do that, because it is an excellent idea, and I\u2019m very, very proud to stand here and commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220e7e02ba3a3d47dd92a0d1007f5272a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e7e02ba3a3d47dd92a0d1007f5272a7\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. Mr Greg O\u2019Connor, who just sat down, was complaining, I thought, about the limited amount of time that he had to speak. He left a minute on the clock, and I was just about to jump to my feet at the end of his speech and seek the leave of this House to give him an additional five minutes, but I\u2019m not sure whether that would have been granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s a pleasure to take a short call for five minutes on the Social Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill at its second reading. I do note that I wasn\u2019t on the Social Services and Community Committee, which heard the submissions on this bill, but I do just want to congratulate the select committee, and in particular the chair, Gareth Hughes, for the good work that he\u2019s done, working hard as the chair of the Social Services and Community Committee. It is an important select committee here in Parliament, doing good work, and, in this instance, progressing legislation which was put forward initially by the National Government and by our good friend Sir Bill English\u2014the Rt Hon Sir Bill English, actually. I should be correct in the titles that I give to former members of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill makes a significant change in terms of our superannuation and veterans pension entitlements for those living in the Realm of New Zealand, those who may have been born in the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau, and who then have moved to New Zealand and spend 10 years here\u2014they are New Zealand citizens by birth, but then move to New Zealand and contribute to New Zealand\u2014and then look to go back to where they came from to retire. This ensures that they will no longer be needing to spend five years between the age of 50 and 65 in New Zealand in order to maintain that entitlement, but will be able to spend those five years in any of the four countries within the Realm\u2014whether that be New Zealand, the Cook Islands, Niue, or Tokelau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo I think this bill does a number of important things. I think, first and foremost, it builds on the incredibly important relationship that we have within the Realm, and that we have as New Zealand citizens, and that these shared benefits are shared benefits of being New Zealand citizens. But I think it\u2019s important to distinguish between our superannuation scheme and what entitlements they would have if they were to live their entire life in their home country. It is important to note that our tax system and our superannuation system are a benefit of contributing to New Zealand for that period of time\u2014for those 10 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThat is the requirement which is in place in order to be entitled to New Zealand superannuation, and that entitlement is therefore required as a way to ensure that economic contribution to New Zealand through work, through study, through whatever that might be, is something which is required in order to be a beneficiary of the superannuation scheme that we enjoy here in New Zealand. If people in those islands, whilst New Zealand citizens, choose to remain in their home country, they will not be entitled to New Zealand superannuation because they haven\u2019t contributed here but will have contributed and be entitled under their own schemes in their own country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo I think the important benefit really is economic from this: economically to New Zealand by continuing to allow people to come here to contribute to New Zealand, but then an economic benefit back to the Islands, in terms of the money that they send to family back in their home country while they are working in New Zealand. I think that\u2019s a hugely important role that many of these people do play while they are in New Zealand\u2014sending money back to support their families. But also the important benefit it provides by encouraging and allowing and making it easier for them to actually retire back in the Cook Islands, Niue, or Tokelau, and that will provide huge economic benefit, as they have New Zealand superannuation while they are retiring. So I commend this bill to the House. We look forward to it going through the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u00226651e1175c6a485f85c4e24a3eff582f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226651e1175c6a485f85c4e24a3eff582f\u0022\u003ETAMATI COFFEY (Labour\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, I cut the last person, Simeon Brown, off. I didn\u2019t mean to do that. I apologise for that. I was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4d38dd9773d49b0b76b066cc5bfda60\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Eager.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f69312b44eb4134b15b4788972bd242\u0022\u003ETAMATI COFFEY\u003C/span\u003E: I was eager\u2014that\u2019s exactly what I was. I just want to stand and contribute to this piece of legislation. It is a good piece. It has wide support around the House. I think that all of our previous speakers have rattled through all of the components of the bill. It is the second reading, so there\u2019s still the committee stage to go, but I just want to acknowledge an article about the Prime Minister\u2019s visit to the Cook Islands earlier this year. She was given this responsibility by the Prime Minister over there, said that actually this was an issue that needed to be dealt with, and, as a Parliament, we have debated this and been through it and, actually, have all decided that it\u2019s the right thing to do, just to swing in and, obviously, support it. I\u2019ve got nothing too much left to say about it, other than the fact that I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf836406f3734b81a8865921bab675ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf836406f3734b81a8865921bab675ca\u0022\u003EJO HAYES (National):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Assistant Speaker. I stand to speak on this bill that everybody is supporting in the House, to do with the Social Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill. I am very much like the previous speaker, Tamati Coffey\u2014with the purpose of the bill being well traversed in the House and with me being just about one of the last speakers. I\u2019m really pleased that this bill will actually allow wh\u0101nau within the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau, and those that live in New Zealand, to actually remain in their respective Islands without having to travel to New Zealand to qualify for superannuation and the veterans pension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to traverse another area of whakapapa, and I\u2019m talking about the whakapapa of Cook Islands\u2014of your wh\u0101nau, Madam Assistant Speaker. I think it\u2019s really interesting that whenever we travel overseas to the Islands and whenever we meet as M\u0101ori and Pasifika, we always treat each other as brother and sister, and never more so than with the Cook Islands community and wh\u0101nau there. Why do I say that? It\u2019s because we share a common ancestor. We share a common ancestor in Paikea. Paikea\u2019s name was actually Kahutia-te-rangi\u2014was his real name\u2014and he was an ancestor of the Cook Islands people and lived in the Cook Islands. So if you asked a Cook Islands person about where M\u0101ori come from, they would respond by saying \u201CN\u014D konei\u201D\u2014in other words, \u201Cfrom here; from our islands and from Kahutia-te-rangi.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003ESo what happened with that whakapapa\u2014Madam Assistant Speaker, I know that you\u2019re well aware of it, but the members of the House may not be\u2014was that Kahutia-te-rangi had a brother, Ruatapu. He was of lower rank to Kahutia-te-rangi, and so he hunted him down. He hunted him down because Kahutia-te-rangi was an excellent fisherman, and, because the younger brother was jealous, he hunted Kahutia-te-rangi down and tried to kill him. But Kahutia-te-rangi did an incantation which brought forward the southern humpback whale, of which Kahutia-te-rangi jumped on the back, and voila\u2014he ended up in Aotearoa New Zealand. Therefore, the iwi of Ngati Porou and Ng\u0101i Tahu were actually born. That is why, when I am down in Ng\u0101i Tahu and when I\u2019m up in Ngati Porou, I see the whakapapa of Paikea: Paikea on the walls of schools, at Wait\u0101kiri School and other schools. I hear the k\u014Drero about Paikea, and that is what actually links M\u0101ori and Pasifika together. That and many other\u2014a lot of people call them our \u201Clegends\u201D, but they are our history. They are the things that bring us together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003ESo when I look at this particular bill, this bill where New Zealand has constitutional responsibility for the Islands, I am very proud that we can go across all political realms and actually come together and support this bill. I know that this bill actually started under a National-led Government, and it was led out by the Rt Hon Sir Bill English, because he had that passion there and he wanted to see that our constitutional responsibility for the people of the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau was being upheld. So I am really pleased that I can stand here and say well done to everybody in this House for supporting this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EI want to also mention the select committee and the process that they went through. I no longer sit on the Social Services and Community Committee, but I think that the work that they have done on it has been really good. Even though there haven\u2019t been any changes to it, I think that it has been well traversed and well debated in the submissions that have actually come forward to the select committee. I do look forward to the committee stage. I think it could be quite a quick committee stage and then a very quick third reading, because this is a bill that we all support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EI just want to acknowledge all of the residents within the Islands and within New Zealand. I don\u2019t really have a lot more to say about this bill, just that I do support it. I think that if we can have more bills like this\u2014my colleague Maureen Pugh talked about the bill that was in the ballot that has been drawn out, the Mark Patterson bill, the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income (Fair Residency) Amendment Bill, and about extending the time of residency in New Zealand. I think that the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau people have, actually, nothing to worry about, because, like M\u0101ori, they don\u2019t travel that far\u2014we stay fairly close to home. So I think that this will have no impact on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003ESo without any further any ado\u2014it is always the hardest part, to be one of the last speakers, because everybody\u2019s said everything\u2014I\u2019m very proud and very honoured to support the bill. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00222d2a8590638b41d18e0c0c9d86ca3bc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d2a8590638b41d18e0c0c9d86ca3bc0\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In contrast, it is a privilege to follow Jo Hayes, because there\u2019s still so much more to say on the Social Assistance (Residency Qualification) Legislation Bill. It is my privilege to stand here and speak in support of yet another marvellous Government bill, and something else that\u2019s going to bring some equality into a system that\u2014over the last nine years, one might think that the previous Government might have wanted to make some changes. But, no. This Government, within its first year, sees an issue where there is some unfairness and looks to address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EUnder the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act 2001 and the Veterans\u2019 Support Act 2014, eligible New Zealanders can receive the New Zealand superannuation and the veterans\u2019 pension in what has been known and referred to tonight as the Realm of New Zealand. As a committed republican, I don\u2019t like using that term, so, of course, specifically we\u2019re talking about the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau. Of course residents of these Islands, who are also residents of New Zealand, should have equitable access to the New Zealand superannuation and veterans support. But at the moment they do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIf they were to work in New Zealand as citizens of New Zealand but residents of those three islands for 10 years and then go back and spend the remainder of their time in those islands, they currently would not qualify. We say that\u2019s unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbf4f1875a2246e7b74c374c3f5889e4\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: It is unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022632750370952427482198076969c08ae\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: It is unfair. If they would otherwise qualify and they are New Zealand citizens living in those three Islands, why should they not qualify for this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI commend the National Party\u2014it doesn\u2019t happen often\u2014but good on them for supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce94fabf28a3466699ba7abfbcda41a8\u0022\u003EJo Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s our bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c7ab2679671413eb5166a7e217c2bfc\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I acknowledge Greg O\u2019Connor and the comments that he made about that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c89919dd03e449c7acc3d150b6d6715f\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: So was the last one, and you opposed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022934c6bc3cee14140b24a4c3e440f082c\u0022\u003EJo Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s our bill. You\u2019re just picking it up and carrying it on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aebcb09d28c41c39a045fd818fb177c\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Claiming the bills, left, right, and centre. Thinking about the good old days\u2014the good old days a few years ago, when they were in Government. They\u2019re not now, and they\u2019re slowly getting used to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis is, essentially, about fairness. Just looking at the details about this, it actually struck me\u2014why hasn\u2019t this been done earlier? Why hasn\u2019t this been done earlier? I wonder if it\u2019s a case of previous Governments perhaps\u2014and this isn\u2019t a dig at any particular party\u2014not necessarily having representation within them that can bring these issues forward. I acknowledge our Pasifika caucus in this Government as well\u2014staunch advocates for their communities and the issues that face their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EOf course, it\u2019s also beyond fairness; it\u2019s about relative issues around depopulation as well, as the populations of these Islands\u2014the Cook Islands, Tokelau, and Niue\u2014decrease relatively and, of course, the diaspora in New Zealand continues to grow. We only need to look at the previous images of the last weekend\u2019s game of rugby league, Tonga versus Australia. Wasn\u2019t it wonderful to see a proud Pacific Island community in this country standing there in support of their home nation playing against Australia? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe have a proud history in this country and a proud connection to the Pacific, particularly the three nations that we\u2019re talking about here today whose citizens are also New Zealand citizens. This bill addresses the inequities in the previous system, and I have no hesitation in commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1777685d45a41a3a61a216cfe1d39e5\u0022\u003ECoroners (Access to Body of Dead Person) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269e08bf02e514885867c31d6c1b87b9d\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00221f0d464ba4c24904a7f94871c170ba46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f0d464ba4c24904a7f94871c170ba46\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Coroners (Access to Body of Dead Person) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019d firstly like to thank the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee for its work in examining this bill through the select committee stage and to recognise the committee as the impetus for this bill through its 2016 report Inquiry into wh\u0101nau access to and Management of t\u016Bp\u0101paku. This bill implements the recommendation from the report that requires legislative change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to thank everyone who submitted on the bill for their feedback. It\u2019s always a valuable part of the development of legislation to hear from the public about their views, and I\u2019m pleased that, generally, the submitters were supportive of the bill\u2019s objective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Coroners Act 2006 regulates the coronial system in New Zealand. The role of the coroner is to investigate sudden or unexplained deaths and to make recommendations that can help reduce the chance of further deaths in similar circumstances. The Act\u2019s core purposes are to help prevent deaths and to promote justice. To achieve these purposes, the Act states that it recognises the cultural and spiritual needs of family and others close to the person who has died. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe loss of a loved one is an incredibly difficult time for all involved. Of the estimated 31,000 deaths in New Zealand each year, 20 percent are referred to the coroner. While the Coroners Act 2006 currently responds well to the cultural needs of wh\u0101nau and family during the coronial processes, the report by the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee identified that there was an opportunity to improve the coronial system so that it can better meet the needs of our culturally diverse society, and this is why this bill has been brought before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Coroners (Access to Body of Dead Person) Amendment Bill will ensure that all cultural beliefs, including tikanga M\u0101ori, will be recognised and supported in our coronial system. I understand that this already happens in practice and is included in guidance for coroners. However, it\u2019s not a legislative requirement. This bill will ensure that cultural beliefs are explicitly taken into account as a matter of course. The bill amends section 26 of the Coroners Act to explicitly require the coroner to consider tikanga M\u0101ori and the expectations of other cultures when determining who can view, touch, or remain near a body. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to reaffirm that this bill does not seek to change the current practice of coroners. The work they do is very important to society, and it is always performed to a high standard. What the bill does is ensure that this practice of taking cultural considerations into account is more visible and concrete for those who are dealing with what will usually be quite unimaginable loss. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI note there has been some attention surrounding the new contracts for pathology services across New Zealand, and, in particular, there was concern that services available to wh\u0101nau during the death of an individual would be reduced and that it would result in fewer opportunities for coroners to respond to the cultural needs of loved ones. The Ministry of Justice is engaging with local iwi and communities on the impact of the new contracts. Overall, the new contracts mean people across New Zealand should see improved hours of access to their deceased and the ability to stay close prior to a post-mortem. These new contracts for pathology services do not conflict with the purpose of the bill or the ability to implement it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI know from engagement in at least one or two communities where mortuaries have been either closed or about to be closed that there is the possibility that wh\u0101nau may have to travel reasonably long distances to stay with the t\u016Bp\u0101paku. That is an issue that is being addressed by district health boards, who are in the position of deciding what they do with their mortuaries. So those issues are under active consideration, I know, by many in the community, and I am sure that we will achieve a good resolution of it so that the spirit of this bill can be truly brought to bear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI am pleased that this bill was widely supported in its first reading and that the benefits of this bill were recognised. I hope this support continues at this stage, and I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022 data-id=\u00226f6a874e170a4e3cbf580d9252487519\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f6a874e170a4e3cbf580d9252487519\u0022\u003EJO HAYES (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. I\u2019m privileged to stand to speak in the second reading of the Coroners (Access to Body of Dead Person) Amendment Bill. Just a little bit of history: I was on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee in the 51st Parliament when Metiria Turei brought this kaupapa to the select committee. Her stories around why she was bringing it were quite riveting for us. For some of us, we had experienced some of the issues around access to our t\u016Bp\u0101paku that were good experiences, and we had wh\u0101nau that had had bad experiences. So I guess what this bill is doing is actually responding to the needs of M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau and the way that they look after and care for\u2014and I\u2019m not saying \u201Ctreat\u201D. I\u2019m saying they look after and care for and love their t\u016Bp\u0101paku right to the end\u2014to the day that they are buried. Therefore, I think that what this bill is doing, as the Minister has said, is taking into account tikanga for M\u0101ori around the care of their t\u016Bp\u0101paku.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EThe submissions that came in from the submitters did raise a few questions. However, we were able to work through that as a committee, and I\u2019m really pleased that we all got behind this and we had cross-party support for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EAs M\u0101ori, we treat t\u016Bp\u0101paku as a living person as well. We love them and look after them all the way to their final resting place. I\u2019ve had, as I said, a good experience of this, but other people have not. I have known wh\u0101nau that have been locked out of mortuaries and have had to sit outside and wait. I have heard from wh\u0101nau who have had issues with coronial services in their areas over access and being able to give their t\u016Bp\u0101paku\u2014their loved one\u2014their farewell kiss and being able to hold their hand. However, once we get through that process and we\u2019re able to care for our t\u016Bp\u0101paku, then we can do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EI just want to reflect on a personal experience that I had and the way that we were treated as a wh\u0101nau. Back in 1996, my father passed away. He had cancer. The coronial services that dealt with him were just very, very good. Within no time, we had our father back with us, and we were able to deal with him and able to dress him and do the final rites as a family\u2014able to look after him to his burial day. I think that with this bill and the way that it\u2019s being set out, a whole lot of that, I suppose, raruraru that they talk about with some wh\u0101nau will actually be placed over to one side, and they will be able to continue on with their tikanga process of the treatment, or the loving, of their loved one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003ESo, it was an interesting time. At times it was sad, listening to some of the stories. For some of us it brought a lot of memories back for the way that we have with our tikanga process. It was mixed feelings of sadness and happiness all the way through. So, without any further ado, I just want to thank our select committee, with our new chair, Rino, for being able to shepherd this bill through the process to where we\u2019ve got it today. There is really not much more that I can talk about and add to what the Minister has put in his contribution. So therefore I am humbled and honoured to be able to support this bill through to the second stage. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b37ad41cd19d4e9fae44bdefc8e1dbbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b37ad41cd19d4e9fae44bdefc8e1dbbf\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I just wanted to remind the member, when referring to other members, to use their proper names. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220e73163615924079a38675133cd7df39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e73163615924079a38675133cd7df39\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E It, again, gives me great pleasure to speak to this bill. This sort of takes me back to a time before I came to this House, when I spent some time in the New Zealand Police. One thing you do learn as a young police officer is that you deal with death\u2014deal with sudden deaths. I remember many times through my career where there was dispute, particularly over the custody of bodies of the deceased. It\u2019s one of those abiding memories that there\u2019s always a lot of grief around these situations and, adding to it, much of the tikanga. So it is actually, I think, very apt that we now ensure that in legislation these matters are covered, because so often the problem was, when we tried to deal with these issues, that there were actually no protocols; there were actually no guidelines for this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00229aca798d14574f9fbdbedebecbf3b4ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229aca798d14574f9fbdbedebecbf3b4ea\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the member. The time has come for me to leave the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20181025ac1b6be999414771ab7279f8aeb9dafe000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"