"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d522d037772e4e048b18f304f81e4e0c\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 6 MARCH 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022addaa11ec69a48a3b9b54d2f57a83d8a\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 6 MARCH 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd44abc9b95e46ed96abde93c574732c\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a0282b25a8d44918b644515db52e638\u0022\u003EGermany\u2014German Bundestag, German-Pacific Parliamentary Friendship Group\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002282afd244f1634a29a07b0570f545146d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282afd244f1634a29a07b0570f545146d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that members would wish to welcome members of the German-Pacific Parliamentary Friendship Group from the German Bundestag, led by the Chairperson, Mr Volkmar Klein, who are present in the gallery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002201ddf4af44e14f37babe39a2afa677c9\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002231155b5aeaba4508a8f1141d86db65c8\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220fb926e4ad574b8eb1d1630818535bf5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Forestry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022faca4fc6229d4232a164188b3c18d359\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faca4fc6229d4232a164188b3c18d359\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Forestry. What reports has he seen regarding the one billion trees programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a4d6673e5664940a85e17c9735988f9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, the member had a bit of emphasis, but he left a word out. Please read it as on the sheet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u00220a060fe2deca4ad7a45758a13d6db252\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a060fe2deca4ad7a45758a13d6db252\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Forestry: What recent reports has he seen regarding the One Billion Trees programme? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00224ce770bdba474c4aba1cb4b3e9249bd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ce770bdba474c4aba1cb4b3e9249bd2\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E One report which puts into both political, administrative, and fiscal action is the $1.8 million that underwrites the Ng\u0101 Mahuri o Ng\u0101ti Hine programme, where 20 young men from 15 to 22 \u201Clearn while you earn\u201D. This is a practical endeavour to ensure that we are swelling the ranks of the future workers for the one billion trees programme, and in addition to that, today I had the pleasure of hosting a delegation, of a commercial character, from Germany who had heard about the billion-trees programme and have come to New Zealand to explore investment opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022761c1073099f419fac55c0eda5fd3026\u0022\u003EMark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has he heard regarding this programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bc3fdf793c343f894b4a49bd13d095c\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: In the interests of time, I shall be uncharacteristically modest and pithy. The feedback is a reminder that pastoral care is an important dimension when creating the new ranks of workers. It\u2019s a reminder to industry as they seek to rely also on migrant labour that in the absence of suitable pastoral care dimensions their entreaties will fall on barren ears.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d50be4f9245d41669d3fcea224d40441\u0022\u003EMark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: What other training initiatives is the Government supporting in the forestry sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb7b7fdfd72647fa822aab4ac7fc8a60\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: This Government has rehabilitated an industrial sector neglected for the last nine years. The forestry sector are increasing their appetite for investment, increasing the number of people that they seek to hire, and increasing the number of trees they hope to plant. It\u2019s important that we bear in mind that there are not only opportunities for those youngsters in the four winds of Aotearoa to join this industry; we\u2019re also focusing on boosting the ranks of young women coming through the University of Canterbury, and as does befit my very sensitive nature, I hope to announce that shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220924720f947b4c6ebf5f36d3da2dba16\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u00228b176f0e1daf4094b98b5410ec741a67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b176f0e1daf4094b98b5410ec741a67\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements, policies, and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec5cf2e1f4584e00bbdb5f66818a1a0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec5cf2e1f4584e00bbdb5f66818a1a0f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f2811c43f0d4087b31ea2f3423e0488\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Grant Robertson, who is reported as saying \u201CThere was no recommendation in the Tax Working Group report excluding M\u0101ori from the capital gains tax\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225636caf91e37435bb035f7f8b42ef919\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: If the member was willing to characterise the member\u2019s statements correctly, then I would agree with Minister Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f3ec620d78d41f3abae0b68527f763e\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What does she say about volume 1 of the Tax Working Group report, page 15, headed \u201CSummary of Recommendations\u201D, which makes quite clear there are recommendations around M\u0101ori being excluded from a capital gains tax\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bd8ba5410134ed4a40d39eb14a1fbc7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The Hon Kelvin Davis will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022948d3a8e4e77410e98ed1b0d35ea5570\u0022\u003EHon Kelvin Davis\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022270ec1e423914006b9083a023b3fed01\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And if I\u2019d been able to tell who the other member was who interjected in that impolite manner, that person would have been too. Please start the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022486fcd6efade45f3806a3a766ceacf08\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What does she say about Tax Working Group volume 1, page 15, headed \u201CSummary of Recommendations\u201D, which makes quite clear recommendations about exemption of M\u0101ori and report volume 2, which says M\u0101ori freehold land merits \u201Cspecific treatment under an extension [of] the taxation of capital gains. This could take the form of an exclusion\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ad57c9451404d479c6a91d24965c022\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, may I commend the member for finally reading the report. Secondly\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e01106f9ef14f6ebe8c54d2e04eb6df\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I want to be able to hear the answer. If we have about 10 people yelling, there is no chance of that occurring. The Prime Minister will start again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f373032aae6348e2a60f774b1b165569\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: What the group clearly recommended was that we engage \u201Cfurther with M\u0101ori to determine the most appropriate treatment of transactions relating to collectively owned M\u0101ori assets.\u201D They recommended that we think about it. I\u2019d really like to question the member: where exactly is he trying to go with this issue\u2014where exactly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e06f5dc11a34869bd29c7b21991ec15\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept it\u2019s not where I\u2019m going, it\u2019s where her Government\u2019s going on a capital gains tax; and will her Government exclude M\u0101ori from any capital gains tax it imposes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227145ba8a9f8e489fbd18ff6aa46191d5\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I question the motivation behind this line of questioning. Secondly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220bf7e61ef344e488e0042d5ae3031ab\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member will resume her seat. It has been a long practice in this House not to question indirectly the motivations of members in that way, and I\u2019m going to ask the Prime Minister not to do that again. If people have specific things to say, they should say it, but indirect, implicit criticism of that nature is not acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022501071f900d7490687b15f7ad125a1b9\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I refer them back to the report, which encouraged the Government to consider whether particular circumstances such as disposing of M\u0101ori freehold land or where assets are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022527c74d30631471e92d40d55b7f3011f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Are you going to exempt M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba2848d2ac994c7d9d03b389e7ef2487\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014transferred within iwi, whether or not we should give specific consideration to an exemption\u2014in the same way that, for instance, if you had land passed down after death\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214ad6853d8944c038ea1bc69bc275ef0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Are you going to exempt them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299515f681b7f465983593fdc7fe95d35\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014whether there should be a 12 months\u2019 exemption. These are exemptions they asked us to consider, and for very good reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236e16baff15b48d49a3aac5af439db4f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now before we have any more supplementaries, I\u2019m going to warn the father of the House after\u2014he\u2019s been here since, I think, 1990. I think he made five inappropriate interjections during that time bringing me into the debate. I think I\u2019ve warned him about this about 10 times in the last year and I\u2019d like him to learn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b89aab1648ea4fb098a1dccefa8f585c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If any owner, M\u0101ori or otherwise, was holding land in trusteeship for future generations, how could a capital gains tax possibly apply when they do not intend to benefit from any capital gains themselves?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220526c760d7d14dd2922d4a3f320afd56\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the member is making the point around intent of sale, and, again, I\u2019d like to make the point that of course, as has been the case for a number of years and successive Governments, we have, for instance, a 17.5 percent tax rate that applies to M\u0101ori authorities. And now is the member stating that he disagrees with that provision as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd9938f06f47470b9fe1d581db396f6e\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Will her Government exclude M\u0101ori from any capital gains tax it imposes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b9bdc3b4627413abf287d834693fdfb\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As I have reiterated, the Tax Working Group has as a group, including a range of representatives, acknowledged that it warrants consideration. We have made no decisions, but unlike the other side of the House we can see when there are circumstances that are particular that do warrant consideration. It seems to me the National Party now has a strategy where they don\u2019t support 17.5 percent tax rates for M\u0101ori authorities. We might be interested in sharing that with iwi leaders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6fddd4c380e467098bfbf68e4e31eb1\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Prime Minister make of the fact that the questioning around this issues says \u201CWill M\u0101ori be exempted?\u201D rather than saying \u201CWill M\u0101ori freehold land be exempted?\u201D; why does she think someone might make that kind of statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8a5ae6de43b4fc8aea0cb7401bb828c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I think asking the Prime Minister to read the minds of other members is inappropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022740f4b796282486c972978ea8ce13314\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Will the potential tax considerations to be put before Inland Revenue have regard to how much a person feels like they are a M\u0101ori or whether they discovered that somewhat the same way as Columbus discovered America\u2014purely by accident?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0bfe1c34fe747bcac83ade78a27e2e0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to move on. I\u2019m going to work, I think, for the last time today, on the basis that that was not deliberately disorderly. I think we\u2019ve had a couple from Ministers that are heading in that direction, and from this side as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244ef0bb715d64dc39af16b03db65098d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Grant Robertson, who said yesterday the Tax Working Group report did not include recommendations of taxes like a \u201Ccapital gains tax, a water tax, a fertiliser tax, a nitrate tax, and agricultural emissions tax.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6823c19594b4012ba350b05497d7538\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I sat in this House when member Nathan Guy rattled off a series of taxes where there was no commentary in the Tax Working Group on any of those issues. I am happy, as I said, to debate the facts of the report if there was accuracy around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce25c42e9864446c978c15856b43a683\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Prime Minister, not me, who hasn\u2019t read Cullen\u2019s report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c587cbd4d684f9ea1866391853eb5b9\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a2360de698d40f0af85541acd21d856\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Well, has she read pages 16 and 17 of volume one under the heading \u201CSummary of recommendations of the report\u201D, which recommends not only all of those taxes I outlined before but also recommends here an environmental footprint tax and a natural capital enhancement tax; aren\u2019t all of those taxes recommended in this report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d554a301bd5247618c974adf11ed3b03\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: It would be good to have a rational discussion about the Tax Working Group\u2019s recommendations\u2014all of which, in the environmental section, ask us to consider the entirety of what\u2019s happening in the environmental space without the scaremongering that is coming from that side of the House, and the inaccuracy from that side of the House, and, I have to say, the environmental inaction that we are having to deal with on this side of the House because of nine years of an absolute failed Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022583eb6d11b54451a8cc455915dc3374a\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: So is she so brave that she\u2019s going to give New Zealand, at page 16, an agricultural emissions tax, a nitrate tax, a water tax, a fertiliser tax, and, at page 17, an environmental footprint tax and a natural capital enhancement tax, given this is, in her words, our \u201Cnuclear-free moment\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b30680dea3a64f3a88028254cb8337ad\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: At least I recognised we have a nuclear-free moment. On that side of the House, we had such inaction that the Tax Working Group felt the need to have to traverse an entire range of issues because we are dealing with environmental degradation that has built up over years\u2014first point. Second point: we, of course, are still considering all elements of the Tax Working Group, and when we have a response, we will share it. But if the member wants to be a responsible politician, he might engage in a debate based on fact, not fiction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1c8689885a447b3a2f88d9bcec06149\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Can we just clear up, given that Grant Robertson doesn\u2019t accept that those taxes are in the report, that she does indeed accept factually there is a nitrate tax, a water tax, an agricultural emissions tax, and the various other taxes I\u2019ve mentioned actually in this Cullen working group report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ab1d6404bea44fb959e191c9ca7455e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: When that member releases his workings on KiwiSaver, then let\u2019s talk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eebc2f5a50c046cdbdc115ebfd021c0d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. [Interruption] Order! I think it wasn\u2019t an invitation to talk. It was a direct question, which will have an appropriate response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9691cb3903140e1a4c5b2716b09a9a9\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I accept very few of that member\u2019s assertions based on his record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229458eb735d9048ecbfc9878501f78a05\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister mightn\u2019t have been in the House yesterday\u2014I can\u2019t remember\u2014at the stage when I did admonish Tracey Martin for, essentially, answering a question indicating that she didn\u2019t accept the word of the member. It was a factual question. It was properly prepared. If it was inaccurate, it\u2019s a matter of privilege, and the Prime Minister will answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db7dc53234ad4b8c927f11ba4b44dcde\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: For clarity, I do not accept the member\u2019s characterisation of the Tax Working Group\u2019s report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca0dd671ea1c48ffb397eb162ee93595\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s pretty simple: are there the taxes I have mentioned listed as recommendations on pages 16 and 17 of volume one of Cullen\u2019s Tax Working Group report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce2ed853f10f44f68dbf414e4f64b83b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: In the interim?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f390fce2bf1c4fdca2973f901d35320f\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c35bb09e82164ea59f168ecb6633d63e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Not with the specificity that the member has detailed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022f428c152547689c92a99ca1f4ed5e\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Has she read this report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223588e93371a54fc9a5613fe5a2c74687\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f83784dd5c7b448b94ae08652f88a9c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister referred to the possible record of past statements of the primary questioner, did she have regard to the fact that they had their response to the Tax Working Group\u2019s 21 February report out within minutes of it being published? That means they couldn\u2019t have read it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fa5464e1beb4e83a77af3230fc04b18\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly a level of detail\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022215568d143e14cc7ad4bfe7f97219a1c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Come on, one of you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022410313c300fa4d23844ddac1cc38f70d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s certainly a level of detail that could not have been traversed in that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d02a0128556c49a2bdad99ed67adc31c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that both Michael Cullen, in his public advocacy for the report, and Grant Robertson, her finance Minister, are clearly treating the report options as absolute recommendations, such as the KiwiSaver offsets and the recommendations such as the M\u0101ori exemption from a capital gains tax as merely options rather than recommendations; and aren\u2019t they being incredibly political in their handling of this report since its release?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d5328ca630a439ca8da83e4239c1c5c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely not. I think you\u2019ll find that Sir Michael Cullen has had to come out and defend the Tax Working Group because it has been mischaracterised so badly by the Opposition. Again, we on this side of the House, welcome a debate on this issue. All that we ask from the other side of the House is accuracy in the way it\u2019s portrayed, and that\u2019s all, I\u2019m sure, the members of the Tax Working Group are asking for as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bacf5deeafd44cd8f1e4be2bea3b0af\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the fact that she doesn\u2019t even know the taxes in the report, who\u2019s being accurate or inaccurate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b9ff09e0e4a491dbaca82ca022e6581\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Rephrase the question. [Interruption] Well, you\u2019ve used a question, OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220cf2b1f1cf91459a86e0ba461011ff3c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022f26bf3cdac14491ca0bbf108f42663d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f26bf3cdac14491ca0bbf108f42663d7\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022a29d82f857124e77abfa7aa8d4f8f862\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a29d82f857124e77abfa7aa8d4f8f862\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen a number of reports that highlight the strong future for sustainable growth in the New Zealand economy. Last week, Statistics New Zealand released its building consents data for the year to January 2019. The data showed that the number of consents for new dwellings has hit a 44-year high, at 33,576. Auckland continued to show strong growth, with new dwellings consented rising by 20 percent, while Wellington was up 18 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200334ae77d074a2aa5015c34a6746265\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on the international context for the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3c6f04872bc45de82c9e2d245e2ef53\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Overnight, the Chinese Government announced that economic growth is forecast to be slower in China in 2019 than in 2018, in part due to trade tensions. While growth there remains robust, the slowing trend is similar to what we are seeing in the forecasts of global economic growth from both the World Bank and the IMF. Our own economic fundamentals in New Zealand remain solid, but as a relatively small trading nation we must remain resilient to any factors that are beyond our control. This underlines the importance of our commitment to fiscal responsibility, which gives us options in the face of any future shocks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aef49a6507ea41a59b60ade2d9c08cdb\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government responding to international economic factors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c79a4672c104234894192f2e6a00f83\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We have a plan for modernising and diversifying our economy to be more resilient in the face of this changing environment. Under our Trade for All agenda we are pursuing more trade opportunities for Kiwi firms, including an New Zealand - EU free-trade agreement so that we have a more diverse range of export markets. At home, we are making investments to transition from an economy based on housing speculation and population growth to one driven by more productive, sustainable, and inclusive growth. This includes through our just transitions programme, the Provincial Growth Fund, the Green Investment Fund, R \u0026amp; D tax credits, and record investment in skills and training, among others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f0735182aa794f86a068d1327b5765d7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00229e921c043b514e308cdd76b662deb7b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e921c043b514e308cdd76b662deb7b9\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he believe New Zealand\u2019s international competitiveness is an important consideration in setting tax policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002242254bca61284c4c91037d05d1cc9298\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242254bca61284c4c91037d05d1cc9298\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I believe there are many considerations to take into account when setting tax policy. These include fairness across the tax system, inequality, simplicity, and, indeed, competitiveness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e001d09f54b64cee9b06f2e3b979fd04\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think that the Tax Working Group\u2019s recommended capital gains tax on 100 percent of the net gain at full marginal rates would be internationally competitive, when that would give us the third-highest capital gains tax rate in the OECD and contrasts with Australia, who only tax half the gain made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ae716e48c6244c8871b4a430fd25b46\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There were three legs but the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225792d30bbd104f9da7a52621de7e97f3\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think it\u2019s important not to isolate out any one part of the tax system. As the member will be well aware, the top tax rate in Australia is significantly higher than it is in New Zealand. They also have other taxes both at a state and federal level and stamp duty. So I think it\u2019s unwise to pick out one part of the tax system when making those kinds of comparisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280a9e832633c4c34bfe1d8c31e6292b1\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the OECD countries the Prime Minister referred to in question time yesterday tax inflationary gains or include no discount as part of their capital taxation regimes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c35b7c7a3fd4432ad4bff5cc87de522\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have all of that information there, but I know that there is a range of regimes, some of which include discounts and some which don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a561c4cbc55436f9c2fab096f590f25\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Well, has he read appendix A of the Tax Working Group report, which says that for the purposes of its recommendations, assets are assumed to grow at a 3 percent nominal annual rate which is made up of 2 percent inflation and just 1 percent real growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283739d72f4d24299b4c98f54957e5acd\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have indeed read that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aa14a6dd0394c20be986dd4a78b2a26\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Well then, can he confirm that those recommendations mean taking one third of the capital gain in tax when the other two thirds is just made up of inflation and mean that the Government would be taking every single dollar of real gain made in tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022962911879d2641a48f5f4bb4edc11302\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I wouldn\u2019t accept that. I\u2019d want to go and test that more thoroughly. What I would be able to say to the member is that very few schemes around the world can find a way, if they\u2019re going to be simple, of accounting for inflation in the way that she wants. These are the recommendations of the working group that we\u2019ll work through. There are many other countries in the world\u2014in fact, in the OECD all bar us and Belgium\u2014who have some form of scheme like this who make it work. We will look at the international examples as we consider the proposals of the working group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259468253da944a95afa59bc5abaf7ed6\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister, who has acknowledged that the Tax Working Group recommended 100 percent of the gain at full marginal rates be taxed and said that the capital gain is made up of two-thirds inflation one-third gain, dispute that that means therefore that the 33 percent of the tax on 100 percent of the gain is the equivalent of every single dollar of real gain made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cbf123596a9422d8506924df98379fb\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I said that I wanted to go back and check the member\u2019s characterisation of the report. That\u2019s what I will do. But, again, I say to the member, looking at that in isolation from the rest of the company tax regime that the owners of those companies will pay does not give a fair reflection of what the tax impact would be on any company or on any individual person who owns a company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cf8de33aa824adebaeed0db8badeb7c\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: How can he claim that he does concern himself with international competitiveness when considering tax, when he is now actively considering a capital gains tax with the third-highest marginal rate in the OECD\u2014twice the scope of Australia\u2019s\u2014and one that the Tax Working Group\u2019s own modelling shows would take every single dollar of real gain made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259f2052470c845929a35e0e8343676c5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, we\u2019re considering international competitiveness alongside other issues\u2014like fairness, for example; like simplicity. I would note that we\u2019re not the first Government to have undertaken a tax working group. The 2010 Tax Working Group on which the previous Government based their decisions around, for instance, making changes to building depreciation meant that New Zealand had, after that, the highest effective tax rate for foreign investment into manufacturing plants in New Zealand, as a result of a decision that the previous Government made. So international competitiveness hasn\u2019t always been at the top of the mind for previous Governments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002229ac1212d4dc457399793779bcbb7aae\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Housing and Urban Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d69257904a624fe4b9e7adf9b4f4deec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d69257904a624fe4b9e7adf9b4f4deec\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing and Urban Development: What is the total estimated market value of the 10,355 houses the Government has contracted and committed to build under the KiwiBuild programme, and how many parliamentary terms do these contracts fall due over?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8c5fa64bfa64e84a92878a73aa980de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8c5fa64bfa64e84a92878a73aa980de\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Minister of Housing and Urban Development):\u003C/span\u003E There is $5.5 billion of new affordable homes contracted and committed through KiwiBuild until 2028. Depending on when elections are called, this could be four terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227829239505c149249aa7b563b93cee36\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister confident that he can sell $5.5 billion worth of houses when he only has 313 pre-qualified KiwiBuild buyers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be563f04e6124f3a8eaa267d8f1533af\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Because the demand modelling shows that across the country there are large numbers of first-home buyers, and those 10,355 that we\u2019ve contracted and committed will be built, and they will be sold over the 10-year period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c46207b52e1c43ba9ecc95966ca265ca\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the contracts that the Government has signed to supply future KiwiBuild houses have a provision to allow the Government to withdraw from the contract if it transpires that there is little buyer demand for what has been contracted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022309ed121a6be4b7bab152db0fc1d1486\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: There are no provisions to withdraw from the contract, because this Government, unlike the party on the other side of this House, is committed to building affordable homes and fixing the housing crisis. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2908b0167694beea4cea1431becacee\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How many completed KiwiBuild houses sit empty in W\u0101naka, not sold?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221990b31830174f7882dbee7818b71eec\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: There are currently five homes in the W\u0101naka development that are unsold. They\u2019ve been completed only in the last month or so and they are on the market and available for KiwiBuild purchasers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d127792a383445afb8619c52a96844c6\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the KiwiBuild contract signed in this term will bind future Governments to underwrite property developers for KiwiBuild houses even if the KiwiBuild programme is cancelled by an incoming Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022966d5dbf6bd1479e8dae1d0b506a963b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we intend to be around for a very long time and we\u2019re going to be building affordable homes throughout that period. So I don\u2019t expect that\u2019s going to be a problem for this side of the House or that side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ad5b96e3ab742c8800076ee3e28cd53\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the housing policy and the contracts entered into as part of the housing policy are consistent with contracts entered into by successive Governments around privatising prisons, using public-private partnerships, or any other range of contracts that Governments enter into that extend beyond the term of a single Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fe7855dea3e4c388c79e81863813dd2\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am aware; it\u2019s the kind of contract that we\u2019ve entered into to build KiwiBuild homes. In fact, the arrangements that we\u2019re entering into with some of the country\u2019s largest residential builders are multi-year contracts to build hundreds and hundreds of new affordable homes. That\u2019s about investing in the future of the next generation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef1036b70b4047cfbe4d00f19bbdc56f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00225bd836c7221c4604b9d8b99120e24c1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bd836c7221c4604b9d8b99120e24c1f\u0022\u003EJAN TINETTI (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent announcements has he made to create space and improve classrooms in secondary schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00224bd1a2aeb3c947ddbe0c464a2103a395\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bd1a2aeb3c947ddbe0c464a2103a395\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Last Thursday, I announced $25 million for a major redevelopment of Wellington Girls\u2019 College. This school has a growing roll and it\u2019s been relying on ageing, relocatable classrooms to manage their space. This multimillion-dollar investment by the Government will provide Wellington Girls\u2019 College with 16 new classrooms, relieving the pressure that they have on their school, providing them with extra teaching space, extending their hall, and increasing the provision for learning support and student counselling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dd81e0988854cac9aec9ddc1e22145a\u0022\u003EJan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: What other recent investments has the Government made to improve the quality of classrooms and school buildings for students? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ae097a0344d4d749c22eeac704c2743\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s more? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022177040b31a864ca5961f060f03675694\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s more. A few days before that, I announced $20 million to fix Botany Downs Secondary College. This money will pay to fix their leaky roofs and cladding on the nine buildings that contain 70 of their 84 classrooms. It will also cover the cost of temporary teaching spaces so that there is minimum disruption to student learning while the work is being done. These announcements are part of the hundreds of millions of dollars in announcements the Government has made since our first Budget last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222be79314907d4ae0a3f75fff525052ae\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb4da89e66324236a788b5e8f6c62a7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb4da89e66324236a788b5e8f6c62a7d\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is he satisfied the extra costs incurred by DHBs are having a positive effect on the volume of health services provided; if so, what measures is he using to gauge the effect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00228df71279334d455d93e74fb4448e65fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228df71279334d455d93e74fb4448e65fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m satisfied that this Government\u2019s record investment in health\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d490969842754fe3918c06d31b827a15\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to get the member to speak up; I think we\u2019re having a bit of a volume problem with our system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ede383dee3e4f6b879c0d40a679b4e3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I am satisfied that this Government\u2019s record investment in health is making a real difference to our public health service, including to both patients and the staff that deliver their care. As health Minister, I\u2019m more concerned with outcomes rather than simply the volume of services. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve reduced the cost of going to the doctor for around 600,000 New Zealanders so that they can get treatment early and prevent small problems becoming more serious. However, as the member asks about the volume of services, we are seeing increases, indeed. For example, so far this financial year district health boards (DHBs) have completed 45,456 MRI scans, which is 5,124 more than the same period last year. Over the same period, we\u2019ve also delivered 8,000 more first specialist assessments, and the number of people waiting for ophthalmology services has reduced from 10,200 people in May 2017 to just over 4,000 in December. Of course, there is more to be done, but progress is being made. Lastly, in terms of measures, the member knows full well there are dozens of performance measures built into our health system that record the delivery of services, and the Ministry of Health uses the data to assist DHBs to improve their services. More health services are being delivered to more New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb08586569e74d78aa4c668d8a24adce\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Well is he aware that the Ministry of Health\u2019s own statistics page has not been updated with that data since August 2016?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282d591eac3474bbcb0c6bed284b65d2a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure exactly which page that member\u2019s referring to, but he may need to refresh his web browser. Certainly, the previous National Government\u2019s health targets are being regularly updated, and we\u2019re not printing them in the major newspapers and spending tens of thousands of dollars to promote a narrow range of political targets, but you can see on there the targets being followed through. Of course, there are a wide range of measures. Indeed, in my letter to DHBs in December, I highlighted some of the ones I was concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f29821c048f4c4ba949f1e645975ddb\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that the now defunct health target data indicates reductions in volume and timeliness in four of the five targets since he removed them, and the data on the sixth target, which is elective surgery, has not even been released?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ef1c450a8fb449aa50aee74d697bf24\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The electives target was retired previously. The member knows that. As to the others, certainly, in the first quarter of the 2017-18 year\u2014since then, in the comparative quarter, the most recent quarter, we\u2019re actually delivering on one more of the targets, even though they\u2019re not ours, than the previous Government was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220190ecc61bb44c8d9138ce277ae2b420\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Is the failure to release the elective surgery throughput data due to significant reductions in throughput as a consequence of industrial action?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022277ae5df64334c63bb70a6ec4203d55b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Of course I don\u2019t have those numbers right in front of me, but what I can say is that we\u2019re seeing more services delivered to more New Zealanders, and that is what we want to see. I\u2019ve related to the member a large list of examples of more services being delivered, and that member knows it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246bfd57711c64be2baf12c76f8964b4b\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Well, isn\u2019t it true that that list is simply what the Minister chooses to share and he has not yet told the New Zealand public what\u2019s important to him in terms of health targets\u2014when will he do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022457560a8b4b54cfcb942dbd1e1396088\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said, we are focused on delivering outcomes for patients. That is my concern as health Minister. The previous Government\u2019s narrow targets are not something that I am going to commit us to, because I actually believe it\u2019s more important to have better health outcomes for New Zealanders than to have Avastin injections and skin lesion removals done in more expensive settings just because it pumps up the statistics. That\u2019s what the previous Government did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b82a84b2b938455dac588f8c5067c3e1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Agriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00222d24c609eefa48f797e4c577aca31fb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d24c609eefa48f797e4c577aca31fb7\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: Does he stand by all his statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00227f9f64931a04420985670380a216f8a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f9f64931a04420985670380a216f8a7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f56c7cb7a774d248f74556401ae97e0\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statements in the House yesterday that were a capital gains to be brought in, it may mean that farms are more affordable for young New Zealanders; if so, what makes him think that a young farmer wants to purchase land with significant environmental taxes and a potential capital gains tax down the track?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220009d23a14314e6891380b0dbbed6b3b\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I guess the member\u2019s referring to the independent report on taxation that has been put out by Michael Cullen and a group of people. The issue of affordability is something that has been referred to. There have been many, many comments out around the country on that report, and we welcome them. Most of them are sensible, are considered\u2014except those from the National Party. Can I say that I don\u2019t only rely on my own wisdom; I can refer to, perhaps, independent commentators who have referred to this particular issue. Dominick Stephens from Westpac, in fact, said, \u201Cthe current \u2018uneven\u2019 tax system encourages investment heavily focused on capital gain rather than income generation, such as residential property and farms, and in effect turns people away from investing in more income-focused investments.\u201D That\u2019s just one of many, many comments referring to the issue of affordability of farms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227ad44e9b593408d8facbb9546d5cfd0\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement in relation to proposed taxes on farmers on RNZ this morning\u2014and I\u2019m going to quote\u2014\u201CWe haven\u2019t been through the figures.\u201D; if so, why hasn\u2019t he worked out the cost of these proposed figures on farmers and rural communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221efbe864008245c7a1a2cecd5a9fa6ef\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Because no decisions have been made on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220df8fe772e3145e0bd1ec1bc95f88bef\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister say to reassure farmers like Federated Farmers Otago president Simon Davies, who says after he\u2019s worked hard\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d39a9c0aee24e6e93f4963c2da89bca\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Scaremongering. Making it up\u2014making it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5b9205624934db4ab5ee2cfdb0fdfbb\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and made short-term sacrifices\u2014and I\u2019ll quote\u2014\u201Cit would be very disappointing to find \u2026 the government then takes a third \u2026 when I sell it.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f744b2741d74af89edc83193d5a0cef\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before the member answers, I\u2019m just going to indicate the National Party has an additional five supplementary questions as a result of the interjection from Mr Jones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274421a10e04440a69b806151fa219380\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: If that person was one of the 10 people that turned up to that member\u2019s meeting down in Otago, all I\u2019d suggest to him is that he does not listen to the figures put to him by Nathan Guy. I could refer to Stephen Bell, who wrote in the Farmers Weekly, \u201CYoung farmers still say finding affordable land, particularly for dairy, is the biggest obstacle to farm ownership. They attribute that to previous generations paying too much for land and banking on capital gains \u2026 farming needs to put its focus \u2026 on operating profit rather than long-term land value gains.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220384da5da58a49beb978cb9bc56167d7\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he refuting our figures on this side of the House when he hasn\u2019t even done the figures himself or asked his officials to do any work on these proposals; and what does he say to Federated Farmers today, who are out there saying that the National Party figures indeed may be a bit light?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022447f1958e6e94cc98926d0375849f8cd\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Because I\u2019m not prepared to stand up and lie to farmers, like that member is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d94ff797de204a759d911f039d82595d\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ve taken offence to that comment, and I wish that that Minister should withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c47e94ca6d2e469ebc1c40b3b1099e4b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. I do want to think about it. I want to think about it. It\u2019s certainly an offence to indicate that a member has lied in the House. I\u2019m going to get a little bit of advice. Traditionally, it\u2019s not been an offence to\u2014I muted my own mic. Traditionally, it\u2019s not been an offence to indicate that people have told untruths deliberately outside the House, but that was a pretty aggressive reflection on a member. I think I\u2019ve worked myself to the point now where it was such a\u2014yeah, no, I\u2019ve had some advice, which I don\u2019t like very much. I have worked myself to the point where I think it is a comment which could be characterised as being offensive, and for that reason I will require the member to withdraw it and to apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214441577e87248faa4959a416738523a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ccc1193cd7a44458d90094a6ab75bc5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, I want to warn the member that he\u2019s not to reflect on the ruling and the apology he\u2019s just had. We\u2019ve had a member very nearly get into big trouble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a51baac0f28f40749bbb5505beeabe47\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a clarity of whether I have the opportunity to answer the question. That\u2019s all I\u2019m asking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e15dfacb7c35461f9214df3e95568cf1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think if the member had more that he wanted to say, he should\u2019ve said it before he was offensive. Right, further supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236c40e67598642a99f426172711fb7f1\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Too right. When he said the biggest challenge in agriculture yesterday was succession, does he not realise the biggest challenge facing agriculture right now is more taxes imposed by this Government, and potentially a capital gains tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231cd42cffeba408d9a340b81fa4dc69f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely reject that assertion. If he sat down and listened to farmers across this country, he wouldn\u2019t talk such rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002200a86fd6953d43c6a5e5c53b80d3a3e3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Social Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4a9a419536940c694547829a52a82e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4a9a419536940c694547829a52a82e8\u0022\u003EPRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: What evidence, if any, has she received that demonstrates a positive impact of the service delivery changes in Work and Income offices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022281f3108ad6944739d836684115f5e9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022281f3108ad6944739d836684115f5e9b\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E Recently, I received an update on the work that the Ministry of Social Development is undertaking to strengthen service culture, including an update on the pilot of a client experience survey called Heartbeat. So far, the pilot survey has had nearly 1,200 responses, which rate the client experience at Work and Income as 8.2 out of 10. It\u2019s also great to see the high engagement of M\u0101ori clients, who make up 35 percent of survey respondents and who are a key group we want to work better with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b49c8feed2d44b329dbe6b6b19726d68\u0022\u003EPriyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: What other evidence has the Minister received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3f917ecf88e4011a79cb20e2232cb42\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Between April 2018 to January 2019 and the equivalent period the year before there has been a 3 percent decrease in the average number of trespass orders issued each month. Over the same period, the number of reviews of decisions being sought by clients on average each month decreased by 11 percent, meaning that less people are needing to dispute their entitlements and more people are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fb6a5d2d2a445e2a2b2a70e35ecc175\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Fewer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d70e209137b4bbf9d939fdec74a8be4\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014receiving accurate assessments of entitlement. Also, the number of complaints for the December 2018 quarter has decreased by 11.1 percent when compared to the December 2017 quarter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4651c58801248b4bfbba3650f6445ac\u0022\u003EPriyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227784c3a3b8584f76af72449ae4eceaf3\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Good question. Most New Zealanders will need the support of the Ministry of Social Development or Work and Income at some stage during their life, for a range of reasons: support while unemployed, while studying, due to disability or illness, or when accessing superannuation. All of these people deserve to be treated with respect, have their dignity upheld, and be provided with effective support. These survey results and other feedback are valuable for informing continual improvement to the welfare system. Sixteen months in, this is a good start, but there is much more to do, and I am confident that under this new Government, things will only get better for both clients and staff at Work and Income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246eb981677cd4c3da3bb87664a352583\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Is it because of the service delivery changes, where sanctions and expectations on beneficiaries, that the jobseeker benefit has gone up by over 11,000 people in the last 12 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bd2d8568e94431a977b819b31f69604\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: That member knows that the proportion of New Zealanders on benefit is currently 9.9 percent. This time last year it was 9.8 percent. The increase in numbers is due to population growth. I think that member needs to reflect on her time as the Minister for Social Development, when, following the reforms, nearly 50 percent of those who left benefit were back on it within 18 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ba0f155f0f346fbacc2bde8750ec626\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00225cdc5b48f3c44b609b2cc54de015e361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cdc5b48f3c44b609b2cc54de015e361\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does he stand by all his policies and actions around the review of vocational education and his work in the portfolio?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002205a2b5fdb56e44dbbf65058a69792623\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205a2b5fdb56e44dbbf65058a69792623\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221489878307b4fda973e5bd66166351a\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: When asked in Invercargill on Friday \u201CIf you make a mistake here, will you resign?\u201D, did he reply \u201CYes\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd064cbc5e794e1885f96e14d3bf8ebb\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263ef2ac8137742d896e9d64d7e07e973\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: How is it fair to have six weeks consultation on a proposal, which could rip the heart out of communities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022091a02e687a340e1b47b228199eccae8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9392591a2844272a7407777511b3458\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy to respond to that, Mr Speaker. I absolutely reject the assertion in the member\u2019s question. With regard to the time frame for consultation, there\u2019s actually a drive from people within the sector to have the consultation period in a very intense and truncated period, because of the uncertainty that the sector currently faces, even without this consultation, and the potential damage that prolonged uncertainty could do to their ability to recruit students, particularly international students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea8fa1b449744f99a75e9719f6e19a9d\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: When he said in the House yesterday that the Government has not predetermined an outcome on the reforms, why then has the Tertiary Education Commission (TEC) issued a hui invitation in Whangarei on Friday to hunt out people for the proposed regional leadership groups?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa079b263d8c4ef4ab11c41f80a5da8a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not familiar with the TEC proposing to do that. I\u2019ll certainly take the member at his word that they might have done that. I have given the TEC an instruction that they need to be working up the proposals. They need to be continuing to work on the proposals, but we haven\u2019t made decisions on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1c3cb8b8063472fba40cf9baa134311\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to Skills Active industry training organisation (ITO) chair, Mr Sam Napia, who says that the consultation process is a sham, the outcomes are predetermined, and a six-week consultation period and three-day hui invitation are completely inconsistent with Treaty of Waitangi and M\u0101ori consultation protocols?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afd2d497675c448bb0d35bb91c444f04\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely reject the notion that the consultation is a sham.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296356dbf8411456cb1ad0c78baf6364c\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an email from ITO chair, Mr Sam Napia, detailing those statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ed190b25dc44b28bdec422a9b9c3b71\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that document being tabled? It\u2019s only been sent to the member, has it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fb4b67fc4cd4605a3e7a1afa0ccd52e\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcf08790059645269d7b0e70dd7a1998\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that being tabled? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720a2890542b4cf59bc83f07031be56c\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What factors does the Minister believe led to the parlous financial state that the vocational education sector has found itself in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1a7c684769f4bdd8a859da841a38f4a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There has been a significant underinvestment in vocational education and training, including a decision made in the early 2010s to cut significant amounts of funding from the polytech sector, which is one of the reasons we had to put $100 million into them this year alone in order to keep the lights on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fbaafd89373846a3b5d2cfe39694bf8e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Statistics\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022 data-id=\u00226fe0802f42e241e2be3577de7a66963d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fe0802f42e241e2be3577de7a66963d\u0022\u003EDr JIAN YANG (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Statistics: What recent reports has he seen on Census 2018?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5bfc7f607944967ba18e82d0871e0ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5bfc7f607944967ba18e82d0871e0ce\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Statistics: I receive regular updates from officials insofar as it is appropriate within the bounds of Statistics New Zealand\u2019s statutory independence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223437a7d83a314d46af5e446deb9d81b5\u0022\u003EDr Jian Yang\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has he received in relation to reports that M\u0101ori risk losing an electorate seat if issues with Census 2018 cannot be resolved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241dc4ed392d54fe9a7f2a1a5d1c5d29f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that the Minister has not received any advice on that thus far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eedad9af1fa4438a92b6c82abf993c22\u0022\u003EDr Jian Yang\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has he received in relation to reports that health boards and schools in regions such as Northland, East Coast, and Manukau risk underfunding if issues with Census 2018 cannot be resolved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022726a4b078f9a47b1a2f8194845ab53a3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat my answer to the previous question: I understand the Minister has not received advice on those things as yet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f682dee349a400aaff59473d4c6a2d7\u0022\u003EDr Jian Yang\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he, two months after the census, reject concerns from the Opposition and state that Census 2018 would be \u201Cmore successful than previous censuses,\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291399366c2ce42728af112fde1390a11\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The census has clearly had some challenges, and there\u2019s no one on this side of the House who would doubt that. But I note that the business case under which the census was operated was approved by the previous Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1737d7216434e81b01ed849699012b2\u0022\u003EDr Jian Yang\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that his department over the last year has had the time to create a bingo tool to determine one\u2019s level of privilege but it cannot, a year after the census, count the number of people living in New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba779143530a413f9bfe66340aa1ce90\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That would be a question for the Chief Statistician. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228895134b43e9444984737832e2aa725f\u0022\u003EDr Jian Yang\u003C/span\u003E: Three-hundred and sixty-five days after the census, can he tell Parliament when the Census 2018 results will be available? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6f1f8dc9ce24dd2b912ba43372b986d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No. Again, that would be a question for the Chief Statistician. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bea4e4e2029f490cbbec27a2a73ef14a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022562d5876debe4e14a00925ce2befd425\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022562d5876debe4e14a00925ce2befd425\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What recent announcement, if any, has he made about mental health facilities in Canterbury?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00223d84aa7664d04c8e9e2d92d27458b909\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d84aa7664d04c8e9e2d92d27458b909\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Last Thursday, I joined the Prime Minister at Canterbury District Health Board\u2019s Hillmorton campus. While there, we announced funding for the construction of new facilities to house a range of mental health services that are currently provided at the ageing Princess Margaret Hospital. These include services for mothers and babies, as well as child, adolescent, and family in-patient services, and adults with high and complex needs. Eating disorder services will also be shifted to Hillmorton. A total of $79 million has been approved for this much-needed project out of the $750 million set aside in Budget 2018 for capital investments in health, which was the largest capital injection in health in at least a decade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255839a1c0684444eb1e9cde108c39fed\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: What facilities will be built with this $79 million investment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecd0deee0c09411f896d78f71ea5e347\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The new facilities at Hillmorton will contain an integrated family service centre, with a 16-bed in-patient and day-patient child, adolescent, and family service, and a 13-bed and five- to seven-cot space for mothers and babies. It will also include eating disorders in-patient and out-patient services. A separate high and complex needs unit will include in-patient adult beds. Work is due to begin next year, with relocated services expected to start operating from Hillmorton in 2022. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0fa9a7f9410456588fd23e32b28f58d\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: How will these new facilities benefit patients and the staff who care for them? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0c6a38b1d6d4f6296752a02dbee08dd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The current facilities at Princess Margaret Hospital are far from ideal. Both patients and staff deserve better. We need to ensure that we have physical environments that support people\u2019s treatment and recovery. This development will deliver purpose-built facilities that reflect modern methods of care. It will create a flexible environment for mothers and their families, children, and adolescents, and it will include access to the outdoors and green spaces. It means the incredibly hard-working and dedicated staff at Princess Margaret Hospital, who have maintained a high quality of health support for their patients despite their physical work environment, will also benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225bef52a5cfcb4ba18588fd4ffc61486c\u0022\u003EDebate on Budget Policy Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002270a5374d61984bb99ffddd59321bfbe9\u0022\u003EDebate on Budget Policy Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00222419d1536eb04f1b86008895874c05a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222419d1536eb04f1b86008895874c05a7\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the Budget Policy Statement 2019. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to present to the House the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the Budget Policy Statement (BPS). Before I commence my comments, I wish to thank those members of the committee who attended the hearings, the Minister of Finance and the Secretary to the Treasury for presenting to the committee, and all of the submitters who took the time to give to the committee their views on the priorities that should be within the Budget Policy Statement, which, of course, has a significant bearing on the Budget that will be delivered and on the well-being and the future of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe Budget Policy Statement is an important part of the Budget cycle. It is a means by which the Minister of Finance and the Government directly signals its intentions in terms of the priorities in the forthcoming Budget to the Parliament, and, in doing so, it is a way by which the Minister and the Government is accountable to the House for the priorities that it is setting as a part of the Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIt was notable to the select committee this year that the Budget Policy Statement before us was quite different from BPSs that have been presented to previous Finance and Expenditure Committees. This was a Budget Policy Statement that wasn\u2019t just focused on the fiscals and that wasn\u2019t just focused on how Government will be spending money, although that is an important part of the Budget, of course. It was a Budget Policy Statement that was focused on the Government\u2019s belief that lifting the well-being of people and communities is what really matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe way that this has been explained to the committee over a range of engagements about the well-being Budget and the living standards framework that sits in behind it is that while it is very important that the economy is well managed, that we have economic growth, and that the Government\u2019s books are run well, those things are not ends in themselves. The things that really matter to New Zealanders are things like having a good house, having access to good health and education services, having a sense of well-being and safety within people\u2019s communities, and being engaged with the community and our society. The things that we do as Government should be about supporting those different kinds of well-being: the well-being of people, the well-being of communities, and the well-being of the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EOne of the things that the Minister of Finance noted in his presentation to the committee was that, actually, this is not a revolutionary concept. If you were to pick up the annual report of most major New Zealand companies or most major organisations in our country and you read through that report, you would not just be confronted with tables of figures about how that organisation is spending its budget. The front of the report will generally focus on the purpose of the organisation, what it is there to achieve, and the difference that it wants to make, and that was certainly the case\u2014and this was noted by the committee\u2014with the Budget Policy Statement this year. The purpose of the Government in delivering the Budget was stated at the outset of the document as being about improving the well-being of New Zealanders. In this sense, what we saw in the BPS was a more holistic set of objectives than in previous Budget Policy Statements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThere was a particular quote that is referenced in the Budget Policy Statement report from the Minister, and it spoke to what has been observed when the Government has been assessing the Living Standards Framework and the issues that arise when we consider the well-being of New Zealanders. He noted that New Zealanders do generally have high living standards, and that\u2019s something that we would all feel good about, but there are challenges and disparities to address. He said, \u201CToo many people are being left out and left behind.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EOne of the things the Budget Policy Statement did this year\u2014and, again, this is quite different from what we\u2019ve seen in the past\u2014is it actually made an assessment of where New Zealand is at in all of those important areas. So in areas like human capital, there are objective and evidence-based assessments about how New Zealanders are faring in respect of mental health issues. In the area of social capital, there is an objective and evidence-based assessment about New Zealanders\u2019 trust in Government and public institutions. In the area of natural capital\u2014and this will be of interest to members who represent provincial and rural parts of the country\u2014there\u2019s an assessment about the state of soil erosion, a critical factor in delivering long-term prosperity and well-being in our rural communities. In the area of financial and physical capital, there\u2019s an objective and evidence-based assessment about the percentage of housing costs that New Zealanders face as a proportion of their income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESo the well-being Budget, as was explained to the committee, focused on looking at where New Zealand is at and where the gaps and the deficits are, and then how we can best address those to increase people\u2019s well-being. In respect of this, it was explained to the committee that the Government, in the Budget, has decided on five key priority areas. These are creating opportunities for productive businesses, regions, iwi, and others to transition to a sustainable and low-emissions economy; supporting a thriving nation in the digital age through innovation and social and economic opportunities; lifting M\u0101ori and Pacific income, skills, and opportunities; reducing child poverty and improving child well-being, including addressing family violence\u2014that one was quite notable because it was pointed out during the hearing that the Government\u2019s original Budget priority didn\u2019t include the language around addressing family violence. It was on the advice of the sector and of science advisers to the Government that the evidence is very strong that if you want to address issues around child poverty and child well-being, you absolutely have to be addressing and prioritising those issues around family violence as well. So that was quite a good example, I think, of the way in which an evidence-based approach engaging the science advisers and sectors has actually helped to shape the priorities of the Budget for the Government, and I thought that was very, very encouraging. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIt was very notable that across the 66 submissions received by the Finance and Expenditure Committee, the vast majority of those submissions were extremely supportive of the direction of the well-being Budget and of the upfront focus on the well-being of people and communities. While, unfortunately, we were not able to have formal oral hearings of submitters, Government members of the committee have had informal meetings with a range of the submitters, and those submitters have appreciated their opportunity to have their say. What those submitters have noted is that some of those deficits are very real, in their experience. Many of those submitters have pointed to deficits and gaps that have built up over a number of years that have not been addressed, and they have been supportive of the Government in addressing those well-being issues, but have really been keen to drive us forward in terms of the specific measures that will help to improve well-being in the identified areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EOne of the other things we heard was about the way in which the well-being Budget has changed the way in which Government Ministers have been engaging with the Budget process. So instead of simply putting in individual bids which focus on an output at a departmental level, Ministers have been asked to work collaboratively to deliver outcomes that actually make people\u2019s lives better, and this is leading to more linked-up, holistic decision-making that should have better outcomes for people and communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EAt the level of the committee, there was very good discussion about the well-being framework. I would note at this point that this has been a matter that the Finance and Expenditure Committee has been engaging itself with over a number of months in preparation for the first well-being Budget, and we\u2019ve had briefings from a range of people across civil society to make sure that we are informed on these matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EOne of the discussions at the committee\u2014and this came up during the hearings\u2014was a discussion about the extent to which we are developing a well-being framework that is unique to New Zealand and takes account of the particular way in which we live our lives and live and work together in this country. I was certainly assured by the comments both from the Minister of Finance but also from the Secretary to the Treasury, Mr Makhlouf, that significant effort over the last five years\u2014during which time the Treasury has been developing the Living Standards Framework\u2014has gone into making sure that we have a framework that is internationally comparable, because that\u2019s important if we want to ensure that the framework is robust but also ensure that the framework does take account of the way in which we live our lives in New Zealand. In particular, we had a good discussion on the committee and at the hearing about ensuring that a Te Ao M\u0101ori world view is incorporated into the Living Standards Framework and the well-being Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI said before that the well-being Budget focuses on well-being, but sitting in behind that are, of course, the fiscals as well, and what the Minister of Finance made very clear in the hearing that we had is that yes, this is a Budget that is about the well-being of people and communities, but we also do need to ensure that we\u2019re running the books well so that the Government has choices and has the ability to make the investments that do enhance well-being. In that respect, he confirmed that the Government remains committed to its Budget responsibility objectives, and he also confirmed that, largely, the Government is on track in those areas. Growth, in the Budget Policy Statement, is forecast to track at around about 3 percent; wage growth over the next few years at around about 3 percent; and net debt is forecast to fall below the Government\u2019s target of 20 percent of GDP by 2021. So, certainly, the indication from the Budget Policy Statement is that the Government is on track to meet those objectives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EMy concluding comment is this. In my observation as a constituency MP, our families, our communities, our faith, and our community groups all understand the concept of well-being\u2014that we are all better off when the people around us are better off and have the ability and the capability to improve their own lives and reach their potential. It is encouraging that this Budget Policy Statement confirms that those are the objectives of the Government, as well. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022125d61cf69ed4303ab64d6f4c5aeae3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022125d61cf69ed4303ab64d6f4c5aeae3a\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Yes, look, I am very pleased to come down and take a call on the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2019s report into the Budget Policy Statement (BPS). I want to start, actually, on the core business of Budgets, which is to address the economic situation of the Government and, frankly, the ability that we have to pay for all of this well-being rhetoric that we are hearing continually from the Government\u2014no doubt, frankly, because the Government is more interested in slapping well-being stickers on everything and standing around and singing \u201CKumbaya\u201D than actually addressing real, measurable outcomes. But I do want to talk about those fiscals, because here\u2019s the hard, cold reality that Labour is happy to ignore: if you don\u2019t have an economy that\u2019s growing well, you don\u2019t have tax revenue to pay for the well-being initiatives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ESo you can talk about kindness and caring as much as you like, but if you\u2019re presiding over an economy that is slowing, the ability of a Government\u2014any Government\u2014to do anything for its citizens is reduced. I\u2019d very much like to hear anyone on the other side get up and tell me that\u2019s not right\u2014that, actually, it doesn\u2019t matter whether or not the economy is growing well to provide revenue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ESo here\u2019s the number I want to start by highlighting in the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update, and it is this. Before the election in 2017, this current year we\u2019re in, the year ending June 2019, was expected to have New Zealand growing at 3.7 percent\u2014so 3.7 percent at the Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Update. At last year\u2019s Budget, that number had already dropped to 3.3 percent. In the BPS, it\u2019s dropped to 2.9 percent, and, actually, most commentators are saying it\u2019s far more likely to be 2.5 percent. So that is the first real year under this Government\u2019s economic management, and we are seeing about a third whacked off the growth rate of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ESo while Grant Robertson wants to stand up and talk about well-being and mention very little about the economy, the hard, cold reality is that under his stewardship, the economy is slowing down, and that means our ability to do things for our citizens\u2014to provide healthcare, to provide education, to provide police\u2014is going backwards, and that matters more to the long-term well-being of New Zealanders. Do they have a job? Do they have good incomes? But we\u2019re not allowed to measure that any more or talk about that; it\u2019s all got to be about how many friends they have made and what clubs they have joined. Actually, by the way, even that is only going to be reported every four years. So every four years, Treasury, this Budget Policy Statement tells us, will give us an update on how well-being\u2019s looking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ESo if you want to talk about accountability, this is a Government that is getting rid of accountability day by day by day, and now, once every four years, they\u2019re going to have Treasury putting out an update on well-being. Well, my question to the Government is this: where in that framework is there any proper assessment of how you\u2019ll make different choices within that Budget planning process? Where is the framework that says if we want to address mental health\u2014as the Government\u2019s acknowledged they have\u2014which initiative is the best place to do that? And how will we as a Government\u2014I\u2019m speaking for them. How will they hold themselves accountable to the public of New Zealand for what they\u2019ve done? None of that\u2014this well-being Budget has none of that. It has high-sounding, virtue-signalling, and lovely words while the economy slows and the Government gets rid of accountability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe Budget priorities that the Minister of Finance has come up with include one that talks about helping a productive economy transition to sustainability\u2014and blah blah\u2014and one that talks about building a thriving nation. Well, my first message to Mr Robertson on his Budget priorities: if you want a productive economy, if you want a thriving nation, don\u2019t load up our economy, our small businesses, and our farmers with more taxes. Don\u2019t punish the productive sector by saying \u201CEverybody who gets up, goes to work, saves, invests, and risks their own money to build something to create jobs, we\u2019re coming after you because you\u2019re all rich little nasty people.\u201D, or a word Cullen used that I won\u2019t repeat in this House. That is not how you build a thriving economy. You don\u2019t build productivity by saying to New Zealanders \u201CThe harder you work the more tax you\u2019re going to pay. The harder you work the more we\u2019re coming after you.\u201D, and that is the clear message that this Government is giving to the people of New Zealand. That is not about having a productive economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s talk about one of the most productive parts of our productive sector, and that\u2019s agriculture. Well, we put out some figures earlier this week because the Government has had none\u2014put out none. They tell us they\u2019ll do that after they make their decision, which is interesting. I would\u2019ve thought you\u2019d normally do the numbers as part of making the decision, but no. Apparently, according to Damien O\u2019Connor, they haven\u2019t bothered with numbers because they\u2019ll worry about that after they make the decision. But our numbers said that farmers are going to be hit significantly by these extra taxes being proposed. Well, do you know what Federated Farmers came out today and said? They said that, actually, National are a bit light: the numbers are much tougher than that. Get this: Federated Farmers quoted a report from another group that said that just one of the new taxes that Grant Robertson is considering, just one of them, could eat up 123 percent of the profits of an average sheep and beef farm\u2014123 percent of the profits. That is just one of the seven or eight taxes that are now under consideration by this Government, and that\u2019s before they take\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269b3abc4a8e243feb357c6a7b5e4794f\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Oil and gas wasn\u2019t enough for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6662bb4be45462db5f707a78604482b\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014quite right, Mr Hudson\u2014billions of dollars out of our productive economy through their reckless, ill-considered, poorly communicated ban on oil and gas exploration. So, Mr Robertson, if you truly believed in making a thriving nation and building a productive sector, you wouldn\u2019t be loading this country up with more taxes that go right to the heart of the people who create opportunities in this country, who create wealth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ENow the other thing we hear continually from this Government under the well-being Budget and in the Budget Policy Statement is this notion of needing to address disparities to create fairness. Well again, it\u2019s all lovely, waffly-sounding words, but here\u2019s something they don\u2019t tell you: New Zealand is in the top half of the OECD for the fairness of our wealth distribution\u2014the top half of the OECD for the fairness of our wealth distribution\u2014well ahead of Australia, well ahead of the UK, and well ahead of the US, and yet we\u2019re being told that somehow we have this tremendously unfair system. Well, a few hard cold facts: the top half of taxpayers already pay all the net income tax in this country\u2014all of it, all of the net income tax\u2014and yet we\u2019ve got Michael Cullen saying those under $48,000 need to be given huge numbers of more subsidies\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e38ef9c07f7545e89c5f9b2104b6a798\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I\u2019m going to interrupt the member and ask her to come back to the debate. It\u2019s a special debate. It is a relatively narrow debate and it is on the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the Budget Policy Statement. I\u2019m giving this member a bit of warning but the rest of the House a bit of warning as well. This is what the debate is on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac61e22386b84b5c954275a0a4ccb5f3\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I refer the House to the Budget Policy Statement where the Minister of Finance specifically talks about this Budget being about addressing disparities in the economy, and as part of considering distressing disparities in the economy, it is important context to understand exactly where we sit. Now I am debating very definitely on that issue because the reality is you cannot continue to whack those who actually try and build that thriving nation Grant Robertson says he cares about at the same time as looking to support the half of the taxpayers who are not contributing to that net income tax take. That is the reality, but it doesn\u2019t fit with Grant Robertson\u2019s well-being, fairness bumper stickers, and so he doesn\u2019t want to talk about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s be really clear. Mr Robertson, if you keep smacking the productive sector, if you keep making it harder and people less incentivised to go out and build a business, you will continue to see what you have seen over the first year of your time as Minister for Finance, and that is an economy slowing down, with more people on the unemployment queue, more people waiting for State housing, and more people needing assistance. That is the reality. The rhetoric doesn\u2019t live up to the reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ENow, in my final minute, I just want to touch on this well-being Budget framework because we\u2019ve seen over the last little while just how shabbily put together this is. The Living Standards Framework is put together on Statistics New Zealand, the people who brought you the success that was the last census\u2014their Indicators Aotearoa New Zealand framework. Now that framework had some of the most pitiful, pathetic consultation I have ever seen to inform it. What we have is the OECD telling us in New Zealand what a good life looks like, and then the geniuses putting this together telling us things like having a friend or moving house is apparently more beneficial to you than avoiding diabetes. Now there\u2019s no issue with having a CBAx\u2014we\u2019ve had them; they can be useful tools\u2014but when you\u2019re saying that moving house, which is supposed to be one of the most stressful things you can do, is of more benefit to a New Zealander than not getting diabetes, then you know you haven\u2019t done the job well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ESo stop telling us about well-being, Mr Robertson. Start doing things that actually improve it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec313c97e7bf42beaad8ed0e9c52f891\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec313c97e7bf42beaad8ed0e9c52f891\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member\u2019s time has expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022652730b8a03f4cf8b72d3a96c96b6503\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022652730b8a03f4cf8b72d3a96c96b6503\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m very keen to take up the member\u2019s invite to talk about the Budget Policy Statement. Perhaps we\u2019ll kick off where she ended, which is that, yes, the process that agencies and departments are going through in preparing their bids for this year\u2019s Budget is indeed the most rigorous it has ever been in New Zealand\u2019s history. That\u2019s actually what\u2019s happening, because agencies and departments are now required not just to put up a bid and say, \u201CHere\u2019s what we think we\u2019ll be able to do. Here\u2019s how many services we think we might be able to provide as a result of putting the money in.\u201D. It actually asks those agencies and departments, \u201CWhat\u2019s the impact of this going to be? How will this affect people over a period of generations? What will the distribution of the impact be? How will it actually affect who gets to benefit from it?\u201D Tim Ng, who is the chief economist at Treasury, actually said, \u201CThis is the most rigorous approach we\u2019ve ever seen to a Budget.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo Amy Adams is actually completely wrong in her assessment of this, and in her final comments around the cost-benefit analysis tool, she is in fact misrepresenting that tool, because what she\u2019s doing is comparing the way that tool measures cost to Government for a service and private benefit of something that a person gets. They are two completely different parts of the tool, and they have existed since the member was a Minister. She knows that, and I actually think it really does undermine what is world-leading work by the New Zealand Treasury on their Living Standards Framework which began under the previous Government, and suddenly, now that the National Party is in Opposition, they decide that this is not worthy. Well, I think this is a huge advance for New Zealand in terms of the way we put Budgets together and the way that we measure the success of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe also heard from the member her concern\u2014and the Budget Policy Statement does cover this area\u2014about where New Zealand is going in terms of its growth rates. It may have escaped the member who spoke before me, but, actually, New Zealand\u2019s GDP began to slow at the beginning of 2017. That trend had started then and it was part of a global trend, and, actually, just today, Australia has released its fourth-quarter GDP numbers from last year, which have 0.2 percent growth for that quarter and 2.3 percent growth for the year. That is a slowdown. It\u2019s happening across the world. I\u2019d encourage Ms Adams to get out and about and see what\u2019s actually happening in the world. The IMF have said that advanced economies for this year, in 2019, are projected to have growth around 2 percent. New Zealand is projected to have growth well in advance of that, so, in actual fact, New Zealand continues to outperform those other economies. But we don\u2019t exist in a vacuum. We\u2019re a small, open trading nation that has to make sure we\u2019re resilient and robust when things do turn down in the world, and the good news is that we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMs Adams cherry-picks a few statistics out in her speech, but it would be fair to say that the people I\u2019ll listen to about the strength of our economy are Standard \u0026amp; Poor\u2019s, who upgraded their view about the strength of the economy in New Zealand last year, and Moody\u2019s, who continue to say that we\u2019re in a strong position. So Ms Adams can take the political stance, but the truth is that on those core economic indicators, New Zealand continues to do well. We are part of a global economy\u2014we have to understand that\u2014but the reflection and the negativity on the other side, I guess, is now something that we\u2019re coming to expect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is a very different Budget Policy Statement, the report of which is in front of the House today, because for the first time, we have within it a well-being outlook. That outlook includes information about the state of our core finances. It shows that the Government is on track to meet its Budget responsibility rules around issues like having a surplus and managing our debt. It shows that the growth track of the Government is steady and solid and, as I say, is outperforming some economies that we would normally compare ourselves to. It shows that unemployment is heading towards its lowest levels in a decade\u2014indeed, is actually already there at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo those core economic indicators are part of our well-being outlook, but in addition we\u2019re actually describing the state of New Zealand. Our people\u2014how educated are we? How healthy are we? How secure do we feel? We\u2019re talking about the state of our environment. Are our rivers clean enough to swim in? Can we have air that we can breathe? And we\u2019re talking about the strength of our communities: how much people trust the Government, how much they trust the people around them, how they feel about their own culture, and who they are as a person. Those are a wider set of indicators of success for our economy, but they recognise a fundamental principle: the economy is a means to an end, but it\u2019s not the end in itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe problem we get ourselves into as a country if we see it as the end is what we experienced in the last nine years. Yes, the growth rates were higher, but the OECD told us we had the world\u2019s worst homelessness. We\u2019ve got rivers that we can\u2019t swim in. We\u2019ve got child poverty indicators getting worse. So that\u2019s what we\u2019re trying to address through this Budget Policy Statement\u2014a much wider picture of what success looks like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat the Budget Policy Statement also indicates is that in doing so, we will then have better information to address the real challenges to our well-being and our living standards. I\u2019d really encourage members opposite to take a look at the Living Standards Dashboard that is available, because what that shows is that we\u2019ve developed this Budget on the basis of evidence. So the member who spoke before me spoke about the fact that she had a study where New Zealand was ranked in a particular place on disparity. Well, take a look at that dashboard\u2014take a look at it and input M\u0101ori and Pasifika people, and on most indicators on that dashboard of living standards, which covers issues like homeownership and income, M\u0101ori have a far worse performance on those indicators than the average population. The ones where they don\u2019t are around issues of social connectedness and the community coming together\u2014something that is a strength of our M\u0101ori and Pasifika communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve got that evidence and we\u2019ve made it a Budget priority. We\u2019ve said that the priority in this Budget will be lifting M\u0101ori and Pacific income, skills, and opportunities. We chose that priority because the evidence told us that that\u2019s what we should do. So for the Opposition to stand up and tell us that this is somehow or other fluffy or woolly, it\u2019s not\u2014it\u2019s based on evidence. We have prioritised the things that the evidence has shown us will lift the living standards overall for New Zealanders. That is different from the past\u2014I understand that\u2014but it is a better way, in my view, of ensuring that Budgets actually reflect back to New Zealanders both what\u2019s important to them and the evidence that we have about what we do need to invest in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWithin those other Budget priorities that are in the Budget Policy Statement are two critical elements to lifting the productivity of our economy. The first of those is investing in a long-term transition to a sustainable and low-emissions economy. It\u2019s time for everybody to get into the 21st century and understand that not only is this the right thing to do for our planet; it is where economic opportunity lies. We have huge opportunity to be able to be leading the world in new and clean technology in a fair and just transition to a lower-carbon economy, and that is what that priority is about investing in. The second priority is about investing in innovation and in social and economic opportunities in a digital age. This is the future of work. This is making sure that New Zealanders are actually prepared to be able to adopt and adapt to technology and that businesses are able to take that on and use that to improve their productivity. To my mind, these are the two big economic challenges facing New Zealand: how we make that transition and how we lift our productivity, particularly through new technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other three priorities I\u2019ve already mentioned\u2014lifting M\u0101ori and Pacific income, skills, and opportunities. The other two are around reducing child poverty and improving child well-being and supporting mental well-being for all New Zealanders. These are critical issues to our success as a country, and it was interesting to note that the member opposite, when she spoke, suggested that there wasn\u2019t an accountability for this Government on these measures. As the Minister of Finance, I am now required to report every year on the Government\u2019s progress to reducing child poverty against a specific set of indicators. I would have thought the member who spoke before me would have known that because her party voted for that legislation. That is accountability. That\u2019s standing up and saying, \u201CWe know that the economy is not an end in itself and that we actually have to talk about what it means for people and, in this case, for children.\u201D So there are specific indicators. We will report on them every single year, and, as the Minister of Finance, I will report on them every single year in terms of the way we do the Budget and the Budget outlook. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo I am very proud of this Budget Policy Statement. It represents a significant advance and step forward in measuring the whole of the success of New Zealand society. It includes critical measures around making sure that we continue to have a prosperous society. It focuses on being fiscally responsible, but what it also shows is the sign of a Government that doesn\u2019t care just about prosperity for prosperity\u2019s sake. It cares about who shares in prosperity, and that is a vital step forward for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce47ad1192db423fb2a665111180e4d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce47ad1192db423fb2a665111180e4d3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It was very interesting to hear the speech from the Minister of Finance. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s anybody in the world, or certainly in this party or in this Parliament, who thinks that the economy is the only thing that we should be concerned about. Nobody would say, \u201COh, it\u2019s only the economy that matters. It doesn\u2019t matter how people\u2019s well-being is or how connected they are with their community or how the environment is.\u201D We all care about the quality of life for all New Zealanders. That\u2019s why we\u2019re in Parliament here, because we want to improve the quality of life for all New Zealanders, whether it\u2019s the things that we regard as special in terms of the strength of our institutions such as this Parliament, or open, transparent Government, which we\u2019ve heard a lot about from this Government. We haven\u2019t seen it so much, but, nevertheless, we\u2019ve heard a lot about it. When we\u2019ve heard such things as the quality of our environment and our tradition for low corruption and high levels of trust in our society, all those things are critical to what it is to be a New Zealander. So we in Parliament, in the many ways that we go about legislating across this country, are very focused on improving New Zealand\u2019s reputation and experience in all those levels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re talking about at the Budget, however, primarily, is how we spend our money, and there\u2019s no suggestion that\u2019s the only important thing, but it is an important element of what is a successful society and an economy. Why is a strong economy so important? Well, I\u2019ve never met anybody yet who if contemplating the thought of them or one of their loved ones getting cancer or some terrible disease is not interested in having access to the latest technology and the latest techniques in solving those sorts of health remedies, and those, ultimately, come back to cost. You have to buy them, they don\u2019t come for free, and a strong economy enables us to have access to the latest technologies, not just in health but in every element of society, and a strong economy enables us to have good quality jobs paying good incomes, and good opportunities for ourselves and for our families, such as we had during the era of the last National Government. In the last two years of the National Government, 200,000 new jobs were created in this country, providing opportunities for young New Zealanders and old and for M\u0101ori, from all parts of the economy and country, with every region doing well and providing new opportunities for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve heard a lot about this Government\u2019s great concern about well-being. Well, actually, how many new jobs were created in the last three months? Is it 10,000 a month, like what was happening under National? No, it\u2019s only 667\u2014so a calamitous drop in the number of new jobs being created by this economy. So what we\u2019ve seen and what we see in this Budget Policy Statement is forecasted growth in New Zealand slowing down. It\u2019s not collapsing. Of course, the economy had huge momentum that this Government inherited at the end of 2017\u2014huge momentum had built up\u2014and so we continue to have relatively good times and good opportunities for New Zealanders. But the point is that it is slowing. The growth is not accelerating as fast as it was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo in the 2017 Budget, we were predicting growth of 3.5 percent in 2018 and 3.8 percent in 2019. Now, what have we got? Well, that 3.5 percent in 2018 has dropped to 2.7 percent and the 3.8 percent in 2019 has dropped to 2.9 percent, and nobody believes that it\u2019ll get to the 2.9 percent. So we\u2019ve seen growth in this economy drop back substantially. That means fewer opportunities for New Zealanders to get ahead and look after themselves and their families, provide jobs, and have access to the latest pharmaceuticals and drugs and opportunities for health and welfare, and there are fewer opportunities to invest, ultimately, in infrastructure and to grow this economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo where has that loss of momentum come from? Well, this Government has been systematically undermining some of the foundations of the strong economy that we enjoyed, such as predictability around Government decision-making\u2014such as the way that it went about oil and gas, which was a shocker. Now, in terms of the quality of spending, I do acknowledge that this Government\u2019s desire to keep the core Crown expenses below 30 percent of GDP and to maintain surpluses, and they have, so far, achieved that. I think they could be more rigorous, but they have achieved that, and we acknowledge that. They are making some progress and they are still continuing to focus on reducing net Crown debt to 20 percent of GDP or less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s the quality of the spending that concerns us, because if we look back to the first decisions that this Government made, the first decision was to do away with the tax cut that they had inherited from the previous Government. They did that because they said giving $1,000 to wealthy New Zealand families with inappropriate and they weren\u2019t going to do it. Then the second decision that they made was to give those very same families $6,000 worth of free tertiary education. Most people struggled to put those two things together. You take the tax cuts away from the wealthy families and then you give them $6,000 worth of free tertiary education, with the result that no more people actually have gone to university since then and all the extra resources that they\u2019re spending on tertiary education have drifted away from investment in the quality of the institutions to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7fb892a6bcc472d8c49758c8aa0fe47\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Relevance? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283be9d1dfa5d4c10be3251ac44e0141a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, the point I\u2019m referring to here is the desire to keep core Crown expenses below 30 percent, and I\u2019m saying that the quality of the spending that they\u2019re putting in that area is not very good. If we look at the Provincial Growth Fund (PGF), we heard from the Minister of Finance, saying that this is the most rigorous debate they\u2019ve had over Budget bids. Well, it\u2019s interesting. Anybody that doesn\u2019t make it through that vigorous debate gets sent off to the Provincial Growth Fund, and that\u2019s where the money is spent. So we\u2019ve seen the Provincial Growth Fund that Mr Jones looks after, which I thought was about creating jobs, is now about killing possums, which is very interesting. It\u2019s about killing possums rather than creating jobs, and beyond that it\u2019s about employing people in NEETs programmes. I mean, all these sorts of programmes that were part of general Government spending\u2014suddenly, $80 million is moved out of the NEETs thing into the PGF funding because there\u2019s a billion dollars a year just floating around for that member to spend as he likes, in cahoots with a number of other Ministers and his Cabinet when it gets big enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut the point is that when we were in Government in 2015, for example, there was only $1 billion allocated to new spending right across the whole of Government. That\u2019s the scale of what has been put in the hands of Shane Jones for his Provincial Growth Fund, which we call a slush fund, and some people think that\u2019s a little unfair. I\u2019m sure he thinks it\u2019s a little unfair, but we have to go back to what he said. What did he say when we asked him about why most of it was going up to Northland? He told us, here in the Parliament, \u201CWell, to the victor goes the spoils.\u201D That explains what it\u2019s all about. New Zealand First chose who was going to be in Government and, as a result of that, they got the $3 billion and they\u2019re going to spend it where they like. So that quality of spending, or the lack of quality in spending, is one of the reasons why we\u2019re not getting the results that we want to get out of this economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re spending however many billion dollars on trees and you ask the simple question \u201CWhat are we getting for that?\u201D and we\u2019re told we\u2019re going to get a thousand jobs, and then you look into the details of what actual jobs there are, it\u2019s a very murky and slippery set of figures that you\u2019re confronted with. So I\u2019ll be very interested to hear from the Minister whether he\u2019s come any closer. We looked at the number of jobs that had been created so far out of the whole Provincial Growth Fund and we found 54 and 118 bureaucrats. The Minister has subsequently told us that in fact there are 560, and I\u2019m very much looking forward to the breakdown of that list of jobs. I think there might be five or six of them, including the gentlemen that went up and did the mulching up in Northland\u2014mulching the seedlings for an hour\u2014but they will probably be counted as five jobs and there\u2019ll be another 15 somewhere else doing something else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnyway, if we get back to the question of taxes, what we\u2019ve seen is more taxes, more fuel taxes, and New Zealanders are getting less for it in terms of roads. We\u2019ve got very ideological decisions, so anybody who is sitting on the southern motorway at the moment\u2014there\u2019ll probably be a traffic jam there now\u2014you can rest assured that there\u2019ll be traffic jams there for a long time to come because this Government is not spending anything on Mill Road, a second critical arterial route out of the city. They don\u2019t want to do that. They\u2019re going to extend that in 10 years\u2019 time. They\u2019re not doing the East-West Link, but they\u2019re\u2014strangely enough\u2014doing a light rail project at the cost of $4 billion. I just heard today that the Swedes and the Danish have managed to build, I think, a 12-kilometre bridge between their two countries for US$2 billion. So they can get a lot of bangs for their bucks over there, but we\u2019re going to spend $4 billion on a slow tram to the airport that nobody can work out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo that quality of decision making is what we are dealing with, with this Government. So the only question I would make at the end of this speech is, yes, they\u2019ve made some progress in keeping the Budget in surplus and keeping the overall spending limits in check, but the quality of the spending just isn\u2019t there. We think they can do a lot better if they apply themselves a little bit more. Thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c250155fb2524697aa2b2b29050d779a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c250155fb2524697aa2b2b29050d779a\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E I fear that the last contribution may have offended the Standing Orders, because it would not be proper for the list member from Epsom to compare his leader to a possum. Not only the fact that it\u2019s a possum in the headlights; he hates the fact that we have spent money on getting rid of a pest that they were prepared to promise to get rid of but never put a penny in the purse. Now, the reality is that\u2019s a characteristic of the last regime which is inversely related to the fact that we have made a promise under the cloak of well-being to fund our rhetoric. I, with characteristic modesty, wear the cloak of having to spread that message, and with my Cabinet and ministerial colleagues, we enjoy the mandate to ensure that the p\u016Btea is delivered into those regions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, I need to acknowledge\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299cf744a16334ed1973b9963a1d8d05b\u0022\u003EHon Maggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s overshadowing the message. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289d606f7338d4e068a41a85c2610a998\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Ah! I fear that we might need to increase the dispute resolution employment service bill with more contributions from that particular member, but I\u2019ll leave that point alone for fear of being pulled up yet again by Mr Speaker for bringing colour and character back into the House. But let me move on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere actually has to be made by me an acknowledgment that there are people on the Finance and Expenditure Committee who do wade through this material, who do wade through the various financial aspects of the State\u2019s administration. My colleague Fletcher Tabuteau\u2014I have to mention him in memorable dispatches because I have a dim and distant memory of being the chairman of such a committee. For a brief period of time I had two mentors as to how I should conduct myself on that committee, one being the current Speaker and another being Doug Woolerton. Doug Woolerton gave me lessons on language\u2014I failed them\u2014and a certain former Minister of Education gave me lessons on diplomacy. That\u2019s a work in progress\u2014a work in progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI just want to take us to page 7, and just want to quickly run through the elements that the Prime Minister regularly talks about, along with our leader. Civic engagement: we are prepared to embed in our narrative and meet the p\u016Btea obligations so that people are not atomised any longer, so that people who don\u2019t capture the attention of the big end of town or don\u2019t capture the attention of the r\u016Bnanga or don\u2019t capture the attention because you\u2019re not a favoured caste of voter by a Government are brought right back into the middle of the social equation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, if that requires additional p\u016Btea and if that requires us to defend the fact that we can\u2019t immediately monetise the upside of that, that\u2019s called democracy. That\u2019s called civic engagement. Now, I\u2019ve heard Mr Grant Robertson suffer some unwise and largely inaccurate remarks from the other side of the House, but that is called social capital. If we don\u2019t have social capital, we are trading away the birthright of New Zealanders to be in it together, to integrate our effort for gated communities. That was the regime that\u2019s gone. We are not the gated community Government. We are an inclusive, integrated Government, and if it comes to pass that we have to bring the provinces up by taking a risk and increasing the amount of capital that goes into overdue infrastructure projects, whether they be human capital, financial capital, or restoring natural capital, we will do it in a heartbeat, and we will defend it at the end of next year, when judgment day arrives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ELet me just carry on. Income and consumption: the reality is for the last nine years, every week we heard about woeful and awful cases. Now, what do we hear from the list member from Epsom? A celebration of the fact that they were willing to confine themselves to $1 billion, as if that\u2019s some sort of religious, zealous mark of respect. The public deserves to have politicians that are willing to invest in public infrastructure, in public capital, and will gladly stand shoulder to shoulder, p\u0101p\u0101ringa to p\u0101p\u0101ringa, face to face with the characters on the other side of the House, because that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing. That\u2019s what this public document actually outlines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s go to another one: housing. Now there\u2019s been all sorts of depredations upon our colleague Mr Phil Twyford. What are the three things that the Government\u2019s doing which will contribute to well-being? We are going to create an uber-authority. Unlike the other Government, we\u2019re not going to tolerate the endless reams of red tape in Auckland that have frustrated housing outcomes. I need only mention the words of Bill English, who surrendered to the planners in Auckland Council, who said that they had more authority than he did as a Cabinet Minister\u2014an abject statement of failure. Mr Twyford\u2019s not going to let red tape in Auckland frustrate the ambitions of Kiwis to enjoy affordable housing and a transport system that we can afford to use because we have the ability to pay for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, on the question of such infrastructure in Auckland\u2014I need to repeat it again. The last entity otherwise known as the Government under John Key, they promised infrastructure delivery, pipelines, and we had a thousand-page document that no one ever read. It was holding the doors open of Treasury and it was holding the doors open of the bureaucracy, so we\u2019re going to create an independent entity called an infrastructure body because the private sector want it. Although we wear the cloak of well-being, we\u2019re actually working a lot more constructively with the private sector, and they have a champion in the industrial prince of the regions\u2014my good self. So not only are we going to create that entity; we\u2019ll turbocharge the ability of the State housing apparatus to deliver properties at a pace a lot quicker, and in locations that were overlooked by the last regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, of course, people might say \u201COh, this is evidence of profligacy.\u201D and also that the $3 billion over the period of the Government is evidence that we\u2019re not keeping a tight grip on the fiscal tiller. It was so tight under the last regime\u2014the reason we were elected, the reason that we enjoy power, is that people want to see reciprocity. They don\u2019t want to see this flinty, ACT-like approach to how the State should relate to its citizens. They don\u2019t want to see this anaemic, half-starved approach of only those people who represent constituencies that are close to a particular ideological view as reflected under the last regime, such as the recipients of all the agricultural funding and the irrigation funding. No, they want it widespread, because when things are widespread, the net brings the various elements that comprise both our economy and our society closer together. That is worth fighting for, and fight for it we will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, let\u2019s talk a little bit about the 20 percent debt figure that Grant Robertson has announced in terms of our rules, the Budget responsibility rules. That\u2019s to ensure that if\u2014God forbid\u2014we should suffer either an international calamity or a further natural disaster, there\u2019s enough freeboard for the economy to immediately respond and meet the cost of sudden expenses. So that 20 percent figure\u2014from time to time, I debate with myself as to whether or not such a figure is sustainable, given the deficit in infrastructure and the huge need in our communities after a period of neglect. But we do have to maintain good qualities and a good sense of direction and discipline with the international agencies, which this Government is doing. Do we need evidence as to whether or not we\u2019re doing it well? Well, it lies there with the continual high gradings\u2014much higher than Fonterra, I might say\u2014that we enjoy on this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESo where capital decisions are made\u2014and capital will be required to deal with the rehabilitation of KiwiRail. Capital will be required to meet the full costs of the project committed to, unwisely, in terms of the conditions, by the last regime, otherwise known as Auckland\u2019s railway loop. These things will all take and require capital. The Budget Policy Statement, on page 25, outlines the size of the permission space as a fiscal envelope. That\u2019s why this document is not only very lucid; it shows that we\u2019re willing, within those strictures, to make the hard decisions. We have more p\u016Btea, we have more options, because we cancelled the narrow, the very stingy tax cut regime that the last Government campaigned on\u2014[Interruption] If you thought it was so good, how come you\u2019ve got no power and we\u2019ve got the privilege of governing? That\u2019s how good it was. It cost you the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deda72cc68854ed8a6d6a93194f860bc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278258d9ca3d4437c8e97430c325234b5\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It cost them the election. So we have recycled that p\u016Btea and we are touching those constituencies long since neglected, and they will reward us accordingly in 2020. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7d21a7d217841e78c3d8ffba05f9f12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7d21a7d217841e78c3d8ffba05f9f12\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think that last minute of the member Shane Jones\u2019 speech speaks volumes about New Zealand First and whose well-being they really are interested in. We\u2019ve heard the use of this \u201Cwell-being Budget\u201D term a lot, and it\u2019s being bandied about as if it is somehow a new concept, but every Budget is about well-being. There isn\u2019t a single dollar that is spent by any Government that they don\u2019t honestly believe is going to improve the well-being of New Zealanders. If there\u2019s any failure, I would suggest, of the previous Government, I could say that the idea of well-being was so obvious, so fundamental in the raison d\u2019\u00EAtre of that Government, that we didn\u2019t speak about it enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut I want to talk about things like the Better Public Services targets. There were about 10 of them, I think\u2014120 separate individual targets under 10 categories. They were categories like reducing long-term welfare dependence, reducing crime, and improving skills and employment. Every single one of those targets was a well-being target. The national health targets: access to better cancer treatment, faster emergency departments, better immunisation\u2014these are all about the well-being of New Zealanders, and if the previous Government didn\u2019t speak enough in the language that we\u2019re now using, it is because it was so self-evident it wasn\u2019t felt necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe disappointing thing about where we\u2019re at now is that this Government has dismantled massive machinery around well-being for one reason and one reason only, and that was it was the previous Government\u2019s framework. That is deeply disappointing because, effectively, we\u2019ve gotten to a point of stasis where we\u2019ve been here for 18 months on things like mental health, where there were specific, measurable well-being targets to improve the mental health services for, particularly, young New Zealanders, and because the previous Government had come up with them, they were dispensed with and we started again. We didn\u2019t start again with new initiatives; we started again with a review\u2014a review into mental health and addiction, which has spawned I don\u2019t know how many other reviews. But we\u2019ve got more committees than you can shake a stick at, all talking and thinking about mental health but not acting on it, despite the fact that mental health is one of the five priorities specifically listed in the Budget Policy Statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBefore I go on more about the health well-being challenges, I just want to reflect on a couple of things that the Minister of Finance made, because he did make two important points. He said firstly that he, as Minister of Finance, needed to report on well-being matters annually, and he used the issue of child poverty targets as an example of a well-being target that he\u2019ll need to report on. But, simultaneously, with the introduction of the child poverty targets, was the dispensing and non-replacement of any health targets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EHe also said that this Government was going to use evidence. I was fascinated by that use of the term \u201Cevidence\u201D, because on the basis of evidence, I wonder what the evidence was for the investment into the education system of $2.8 billion of free fees for tertiary students. If one was to spend $2.8 billion today in education, does the evidence show\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235aba0e8cac24263bacfecc3b421cfb3\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: We didn\u2019t spend that. That\u2019s not how much the fees-free cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a40f8e48f498424697e68ae69d385e67\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Over four years? I\u2019m pretty sure that\u2019s what it was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3f34162cdd042758bd980192c7e0ed3\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not how much it cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5f2d4b64c9046efb0b74af5a53fb444\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Minister was talking it up big time when he announced it. Now he\u2019s trying to make the target as small as possible, actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c3cb84f777a4a86b0e1aba561e040a3\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: No, because he\u2019s adding in the student allowance increase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022236ebb7ed89f4d829095563a7c1bb23d\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK, so that doesn\u2019t matter. That wasn\u2019t money that was taken out of one taxpayer and given to another, so it doesn\u2019t count\u2014only that\u2019s exactly what he did. So my question remains: if one is to invest $2.8 billion in the education system, does the evidence show that well-being is served by giving free fees to the children of millionaires, or by increasing the number and remuneration of our secondary and primary school teachers, the number and quality of the teaching and learning resources that they have, the number of teacher-aides that we have in our schools, or the number of special education services? The evidence, I would suggest, is that the well-being of this country and its young would be much better served by investing those billions into a different part of the education system, and let\u2019s hope, actually, that the next Budget is less about pork and more about well-being, because that\u2019s my perception of what Budget 2018 was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EIn health, the same question needs to be asked\u2014that is, how is the well-being of our population enhanced by the complete removal and non-replacement of any health targets? What has that done? Well, it\u2019s done a couple of things. Firstly, fiscal discipline is gone, and the Minister of Finance, before he even gets to look at new spending in Budget 2019 on health, has to work with his Minister of Health to find out how on earth they\u2019re going to stem the flow of what could be as much as half a billion dollars of combined district health board deficits\u2014complete blowouts. This is before they even look to replace the $100 million of mental health funding that was ripped out in Budget 2018 and before they remedy the issue of the savings in pharmaceutical purchasing that could\u2019ve been reinvested into new medicines so that cancer patients don\u2019t have to have a Givealittle page set up so that they can have their modern cancer drugs paid for. Instead, that money went back into the slush fund to stem the flow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EWhere is the well-being of New Zealanders when independent midwives are leaving the profession in their droves because the Minister of Health has sat on a report that says that these fantastic female professionals are worth far more than they are being paid, and the Minister has done nothing but pay lip-service about that? What about the well-being of the adults who are going profoundly deaf and would benefit significantly from cochlear implants when the $6.5 million that the previous Government put in to increase and double the number of adults who would get those implants was taken away? What about the well-being of every single New Zealander who was promised by Jacinda Ardern and David Clark that they would get discounts in their GP fees, only to find in Budget 2018 that that did not happen and there is no prospect in the future of that coming back? A broken promise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo as we approach Budget 2019, and as we look at this Budget Policy Statement and hear the wonderful warm, fuzzy, virtue-signalling words about well-being, what New Zealanders really want to hear is: \u201CWhat\u2019s going to happen to my health services and my education services? Will I be protected at home and on the streets? Will my well-being be better or worse as a consequence of this Budget?\u201D It\u2019s a question they may not articulate using those words, but they have done so every year since Budgets were set, and the idea that well-being is something new is completely wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve laid out a few of those very, very profound fiscal challenges in the Health vote alone\u2014and, actually, in education\u2014and what that means is that in order for the Minister of Finance and Cabinet to stay within their own spending disciplines, something else has to happen, and that is that revenue has to go up. The way the Government, clearly, has chosen to do that is to put a tax on the capital increments of the hard-working New Zealanders in our small businesses, on our farms, our cribs, our baches\u2014the things that have been worked at over many, many years\u2014without any recognition of the time value of money and inflation, and without any recognition that the tax gained could\u2019ve been accrued over 15, 20, 25 years and that the actual marginal tax rate at the time of realisation is probably going to be far, far greater than if that impost had been put in over each successive year, which is a reality that other jurisdictions in the OECD represent by simply having a lower tax rate for capital gains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut these Ministers are so desperate to fund their high-spending promises and their fiscal irresponsibility over the last 15 months\u2014particularly in the health sector\u2014that they are not able to do that. They\u2019re not prepared to do that. In order to keep this fiscal envelope the way they describe it in the Budget Policy Statement, there is a tax coming to a pocket near every single New Zealander, and that can only harm this economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022aefda825a7824c51a83c5fcc995b30d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aefda825a7824c51a83c5fcc995b30d4\u0022\u003EMARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare. I wish to congratulate our Minister of Finance on his work to prepare this well-being Budget. This is a very exciting development for our country. This is a completely different approach, one that we have long been in need of, especially off the back of a previous National Government which left us with embarrassing, shameless levels of homelessness, environmental degradation, polluted rivers, suicide for young people at a level which we should not even dare to speak about that is happening in our country, and so many indicators that said far too many of us were being left behind. So this is the first time that we as a country are taking a small step towards looking at the real value of things and not just their simple price. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThe Green Party has always championed a new way of seeing our economy as part of our society and our natural environment and not just the boss of all things, because that has led us completely down the wrong track. My predecessor Jeanette Fitzsimons said in her valedictory speech that her main goal in Parliament had been to find better ways of measuring our economic success and that the aim should be a better economy, not just a bigger one. The work, also, that my colleague James Shaw is doing to establish genuine well-being indicators might be the single biggest change we can make to how our economy is run for the better of the many and not just the few. So we are delighted\u2014the Greens\u2014that our Government is starting to move towards this holistic approach. It\u2019s something that tangata whenua have always known, have always wanted to protect. We see our economy run in a way that should protect the natural world that we all rely on in a way that enhances people\u2019s well-being and not just short-term profits for the few. We have to allow the model to develop in a way that will truly value all the contributions that are often not counted. This year\u2019s Budget is based on interim measures that are good but that don\u2019t yet have the wider perspective that the Green Party\u2019s well-being indicators aim for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI want to talk about kauri tree as an example. If I go to the Budget Policy Statement, I was pleased to see a statement that said that, additionally, data on New Zealand\u2019s natural capital and research into the natural environment could be improved. Our majestic kauri trees are ancient, living, breathing taonga that, while living, provide a bastion for humans in the air we breathe and the whakapapa we hold dear, because kauri are actually our elders. Kauri are great atua of our forests, and their well-being depends on our accountability to protect our natural world. Kauri both feed off and provide nourishment to the ngahere ecosystem around them. They mark the independent relationship between insects and birds and shrubs and all plant life, and so, as living inhabitants since hundreds and thousands of years ago, kauri have adapted to the soil and bugs and climate in a way that introduced species never will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EYet with all of this exchange, with all of this value, these elders of our forests, under our outdated system, are valued more when they are dead and being ripped out of swamps and shipped off as goods overseas, sometimes illegally. So I welcome the acknowledgment in this Budget Policy Statement, because if we had been taking proper care of our kauri like we should\u2019ve been and if we had been measuring their value as we should\u2019ve been, we would not be facing the spread of kauri dieback today that threatens these rangatira. I cannot come to grips with a future world that has lost kauri tree to extinction. Instead, I imagine an economic system that properly values all parts of our environment, and this Budget Policy Statement is hopeful in marking and indicating that value. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EImagine an economic system that counted the likes of the kapa haka leaders and performers and volunteers who dedicated a collective thousands of hours of unpaid work to bring just next door here in Wellington a festival featuring M\u0101ori arts and cultural excellence second to no other festival in the entire world. Imagine a system that could capture that. Imagine an economic system that counted the time that nanas and koros and parents have spent caring for their families and nurturing children. Imagine a system that asks: are the things that we are doing to increase our well-being today adding to or detracting from the ability of future generations to increase their own living standards? These are the value indicators that the Greens have always stood for and will keep pushing for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ENow I go to the members opposite and their addresses today. Certainly, their leader Simon Bridges and his so-called Bluegreen agenda still cannot see beyond the narrow lens of price and dollars, and they keep upholding that. It\u2019s quite bizarre. They continue to stand and uphold that outdated system that has done nothing but ruin and that has actually decimated the future outlook, unless we start acting now. For example, the National Government starved the Department of Conservation of funding and imposed a model where business groups got to sponsor our native plants and animals. Simon Bridges has promised to restart offshore oil prospecting. He\u2019s said that four-lane highways are good for the environment. How green is actual Bluegreen, though? This is narrow thinking in pursuit of short-term gain, at the expense\u2014the expense\u2014of the environment. There is no green in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EHe won\u2019t support the brave kids standing up for the future of their environment in the climate strikes next week. His entire caucus just pooh-poohed them and rubbished them yesterday out on the tiles\u2014dismissed them, looked down their noses at kids standing for their environment. This is the Bluegreen agenda of the members opposite. Simon is buying into the narrow idea\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b61653bc48a4a628b8895b4f2977da5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the Hon Simon Bridges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bc8dfca7fd84b86b43ec2e217632fd7\u0022\u003EMARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Simon Bridges is buying into the narrow idea that school is simply to train kids up for low-paid jobs so that they can keep paying rents on their mouldy flats to their landlords. That\u2019s what the Hon Simon Bridges has as his idea of education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI\u2019m actually looking forward to seeing these young people exercise their power and their voice to call us to account. We know that the National Party cannot understand why they are doing that. They don\u2019t get why they would want to exercise their civic duties and raise one of the most important issues facing us here in this House and in the world today. They would rather block the public from a select committee hearing on this very statement that we are debating right now, just to score some meaningless, cynical political points, than hear from genuine submitters about how excited they are with this new approach and what ideas they might have to make it a truly good one. There\u2019s your Bluegreen agenda right there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWe have many examples of Government initiatives with wider benefits\u2014more than what the initial price suggests\u2014and that\u2019s what this new approach is all about. For example, home insulation brings huge social and environmental benefits that go beyond the simple price of a few Pink Batts. It prevents illness, it reduces energy demand, it reduces power costs for households, and it creates jobs in a green industry. With this precedent, we establish a better way of looking at the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWe need to do more. We need to find more ways of delivering these benefits that simply go beyond the dollar price of them. I\u2019m pleased that this Government has made a start. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224a09fd92952b4233b141c2b10155b497\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a09fd92952b4233b141c2b10155b497\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker, and it\u2019s a pleasure to be talking on the MPS\u2014the Monetary Policy Statement\u2014because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251a0aa7c0c584a6eb06c2522e0d8f242\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Finally, someone is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022531ac2e17c3e4efea9017f638f71c467\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. It\u2019s nice that we actually talk about the Monetary Policy Statement, which is, of course, a very important document issued by the Reserve Bank of New Zealand. That document, together with the reports that we get from Treasury\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022733ce52186eb4df59b74d1e8c952d8d4\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: The BPS. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0a24d9a19b94d5aa8727f5819a808e0\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: The Budget Policy Statement (BPS). The issue around this is that it gives a clear view of what\u2019s happening with the economy. I\u2019ve got to say, increasingly, I\u2019ve got to look at the economy with some alarm because whilst the Government wants to talk about growing the economy and creating fairness, the issue about this economy is that it\u2019s not actually growing as fast as it should. That is the travesty of what\u2019s going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIf you look back to the last three years of the National Government, we were growing the economy at about 3.3 percent. That was driving forward, and that\u2019s how we were starting to make sure that we were getting the money to be able to invest in the core services that we need in New Zealand. But the most worrying thing about this\u2014the most worrying thing about this\u2014is that since this Government has come into place, it has slowly, through its actions, reduced the GDP growth rate in New Zealand. This is an issue of lost opportunity for New Zealand, and that\u2019s the thing that\u2019s worrying me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI know the Government wants to sort of paper over it, but, actually, even the Reserve Bank said in their report that there is a risk that growth and potential output is slowed by more than we assume, contributing to a slowdown in GDP. To put that in context, every 1 percent, roughly, is worth about a billion bucks in lost revenue to spend on hospitals, to spend on education, to spend on mental health, and to actually do all the things that we want to do. Through this Government, we are seeing not only a slowing GDP growth rate, which is quite important, but also what we are seeing is an increase in debt. I keep asking Mr Grant Robertson, every time he comes to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, what\u2019s happened to the GDP on a per capita basis and debt per capita, and, of course, he\u2019s all gone silent on that over the last 14 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s interesting. If you go to the latest financial statements of the Government of New Zealand, the debt now has actually increased. In fact, even in the last month, from the December figure, it went up by another $6 billion. So at the moment, the debt is sitting at roughly\u2014this is gross debt\u2014about $68 billion, and so what this actually means is that this Government is playing with mirrors. What it\u2019s doing is it\u2019s slowly running down the economy through lower growth rates\u2014and I\u2019ll talk about that in a moment\u2014but at the same time, because it\u2019s getting short of money, it\u2019s letting its debt increase. If you go back to even a couple of months before, the debt was actually quite a bit lower in terms of its percentage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat this Government\u2019s not doing\u2014even though they\u2019re trying to portray that they are\u2014is actually saying they\u2019re reducing debt. They\u2019re not. Actually, what they are doing, in the sheer numbers, in the amount of money that they\u2019ve borrowed, is actually increasing debt, and they\u2019re trying to offset that by saying, \u201CAt a gross level, it\u2019s OK. On the percentage level compared to GDP growth rate, it\u2019s okay.\u201D Well, actually, what they are doing is using that debt figure as the area to let them expand, to enable them to start to spend and fund some of the programmes we have heard talked about today. We have heard about the Provincial Growth Fund, the 3 billion bucks that Shane Jones has got, the billion bucks that got given to Winston Peters, and all the other stuff\u2014the student fees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat they are doing is, basically, playing with our future\u2014playing with New Zealand\u2019s future\u2014by actually increasing debt. Then, at the same time, what they\u2019ve done in the last 16 months is raise tax by $2.6 billion, and that is against the policy they talked about. Prior to being made the Government, they campaigned on the fact that they wouldn\u2019t introduce any new taxes, and now\u2014now\u2014they have already increased taxes by $2.6 million. Then, of course, we have got the whole issue around the capital gains tax. The whole thing about this is: \u201CShovel on another $2.6 billion of taxes on New Zealanders.\u201D\u2014on ordinary New Zealanders\u2014\u201CThat\u2019s not enough\u2014that\u2019s not enough. Let\u2019s grow the debt as well. That\u2019s not enough. Let\u2019s talk about another tax.\u201D, which is the capital gains tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s all about just building up money so that you can spend your way out, but the issue that I think we should be talking about is not the flabby spend that we hear every day from the Hon Shane Jones when he steps up to the mark and tries to defend yet another piece of flabby spend that\u2019s creating no jobs. We have gone silent on all that foreign affairs stuff that Winston Peters is doing around the Pacific, and the new ambassadorship and consulate in Sweden\u2014all that\u2019s been wasted. So what is happening is that we have got this economy that is just not going as well as it should. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other thing I heard today in question time is that we\u2019re out there doing trading arrangements. Grant Robertson talked about diversifying the economy\u2014diversifying the economy. He talked about trying to get a relationship with the EU. Well, I\u2019ve got to say to Mr Grant Robertson that that has been in train for quite some time. It wasn\u2019t an initiative that was started by the Labour - New Zealand First Government; it\u2019s actually been in a long time. Trying to take credit for something that you haven\u2019t done is not a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut the issue is: where are all the other trading relationships? The reason is we\u2019re not out there\u2014we\u2019re not out there. We\u2019re going to talk about the relationship with China. We\u2019re not out there. We don\u2019t have a close enough relationship with them. What about the other fast-growing economies in the South Pacific? We do not seem to be out there, because we don\u2019t have a Minister of trade out there away from New Zealand, not in New Zealand. We don\u2019t have a Foreign Minister out travelling enough around the world creating new opportunities for businesses to be able to go and actually create and build and develop new markets around the world, and all that stuff is helping to contribute towards our slowing economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other thing that\u2019s chilled the economic growth in New Zealand was the industrial relations. So all these things are building up\u2014the industrial relations framework, which employers are now starting to grapple with. Why does the Government set about demolishing the confidence of a New Zealand economy and, particularly, the people that own businesses and make the decisions about investing in new plant and stock and, more importantly, about employing new people? What we\u2019ve seen with this Government is it set about, almost destructively, reducing that confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EUltimately, it is those business owners that will make the decision to hire new people. Once you\u2019ve got that\u2014once you\u2019ve got a growing economy; once you\u2019ve got people employed\u2014issues around social policy and all those other aspects start to fall away because people get paid well, they get jobs that they can feel good about, they have much better relationships, and all their social outcomes are much more stronger. That\u2019s why it\u2019s absolutely essential that we have a Government that actually knows what it\u2019s doing, but at the moment we don\u2019t. We have a Minister that is much more keen on pursuing Budgets that have nice intent, but, actually, are they delivering the outcome for New Zealand? I\u2019ve got to say to you that in my view, they\u2019re not. It\u2019s not, and we will increasingly see the outcomes of that over the next few months, I think, because the GDP rate in New Zealand is slowing, and it\u2019s slowing dramatically. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOne of the issues for the Government is how it\u2019s going to fund its operations and continue to do that in the short term, because they will not have the money. They\u2019re already about $700 million down on where they were budgeting probably about a year ago. That is a substantial cost, and that will impact on the ability for all New Zealanders to be able to share the benefits of increasing spend, because this Government is running slowly into a point where they can\u2019t do the type of expenditure they want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI just feel disappointed for New Zealand, because this is a Government with, in my view, little ambition around how they want to drive a dynamic economy. They might be good on rhetoric, but the ability to actually manage a dynamic economy, to put the right frameworks in, and to make sure that people feel that they can invest and do the hard work and take the risk that many have to do at a personal level\u2014that bit is just missing. We\u2019re strong on rhetoric; we just don\u2019t seem to see any delivery on the actual outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00229e2116977d984c849aeca3b314297962\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e2116977d984c849aeca3b314297962\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Dr Deborah Russell\u2014five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022c299d3fbeab449cba3b29ef78ca0b51f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c299d3fbeab449cba3b29ef78ca0b51f\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I am delighted to take a call in this debate on the Budget Policy Statement. The Budget Policy Statement draws on work that has been done in Treasury for some years now on the Living Standards Framework. It\u2019s integrated into the Budget Policy Statement\u2014in particular, through thinking about well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAs part of the work that the Finance and Expenditure Committee has done in preparation for this well-being Budget, we spent some time talking to absolute experts in the field. This afternoon, I want to report to you in the context of this debate some of what Professor Marilyn Waring talked to us about when she came to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. She is, of course, a former National Party MP and an eminent economist and political philosopher. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EOne of the interesting things that Professor Waring told us about was that GDP is a comparatively new measure. It was first really used in about 1934, and when it was first introduced, it was controversial. There was a longstanding debate as to what got put into GDP and, importantly, what got left out of GDP\u2014what counted and what didn\u2019t count. There\u2019s some interesting stuff that goes into that\u2014for example, carpentry was something that Professor Waring told us didn\u2019t make its way into being counted in GDP until the 1970s. That was when it crossed the production boundary\u2014the boundary of what counted in GDP and what didn\u2019t. So it\u2019s rather interesting to think about what doesn\u2019t count in GDP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EPrimarily, the sorts of things that don\u2019t count in GDP are women\u2019s work and work that goes on in the home. Here are some of the items that are not included in GDP\u2014and this comes from an article by Paul Dalziel and Caroline Saunders. What doesn\u2019t count in GDP? The cleaning, decoration, and maintenance of the dwelling. What doesn\u2019t count in GDP? The cleaning, servicing, and repair of household durables, the preparation and serving of meals, the care, training, and instruction of children, the care of sick, infirm, or old people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7d34c1af46349e98e464707e2a74573\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Unless you pay someone to do those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f31335956bf48269834bc3a6862f14b\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and the transportation of members of a household or their goods. As my colleague the Hon Chris Hipkins has pointed out, those matters only count if they are paid\u2014if someone pays for them\u2014because that\u2019s the definition of GDP. It\u2019s the monetary measure of the market value of all the goods and services an economy produces, but only\u2014only\u2014if there is a monetary value paid for by the market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EGDP is an interesting and worthwhile measure. It is an important measure of what goes on in the economy, but it does not measure all that is important in the economy. It does not matter what counts for well-being\u2014what counts for enabling us to lead a flourishing and a happy life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe ancient philosophers concentrated on what it was to lead a flourishing and happy life, and what counts for a flourishing and happy life? People say, \u201CWhat is it? How do we know that?\u201D Well, we know that because it\u2019s been talked about for centuries. We know that what matters to people is good health. We know that what matters to people is social connectedness. We know that what matters to people is meaningful work. We know that what matters to people is standing in their communities. We know that what matters is people. That is what this Budget sets out to count. We are starting to answer Professor Waring\u2019s challenge. We are starting to answer that challenge of what really counts. That\u2019s why this well-being Budget is so important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EOf course it will be hard to develop the measures. Of course this first essay into doing a well-being Budget will be difficult. But, as it took nearly a century for the measure of GDP to settle down a bit, it might take us time to get the measures of well-being right. But we are on our way and we are making an attempt at it, and we have some concrete goals\u2014concrete goals\u2014because we know that what gets counted is what people work towards. So we will work towards productive businesses, regions, and an economy, we will work towards a thriving nation through innovation and social and economic opportunities, we will work to lift M\u0101ori and Pacific incomes, skills, and opportunities, we will work to reduce child poverty and improve child well-being, and we will support the mental well-being of all New Zealanders because we will work for well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3df7c4d1dce4b0396bdd94eaf60f900\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3df7c4d1dce4b0396bdd94eaf60f900\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s a great privilege to follow Deborah Russell. I followed her around for two months during an election once. There are many ways of hiding bad news and camouflaging reality, and this term \u201Cthe well-being Budget\u201D is the best I\u2019ve heard of yet. I couldn\u2019t understand how they got to that point until I heard Deborah Russell talking about the ancient philosophers, and now I understand the Labour Party policy perfectly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe real issue with this, though, is earlier on we heard Michael Wood talking about comparing the Government\u2019s annual report to that of a big company. In some ways, they\u2019re absolutely right. They do that. The problem is the difference generally is the standard of bookkeeping, and the thing that really concerns me about where we\u2019ll get to in the well-being Budget is how accurate the bookkeeping is. I think the thing about Budgets is Budgets need money, and, to acquire money, you need a strong and vibrant economy. The thing that primarily concerns me about the state we\u2019ve got to right now is that we\u2019ve spent a fair bit of time in the last 18 months driving foreign investment out of the country and putting foreigners off coming to New Zealand to be educated, to assist in our workforce, and to build our economy. So, once you do that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203b09eb54b1c4049b5e9a475cd6bde58\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280de84f90c554489adbe004740085dcc\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014well, it\u2019s proved by the facts\u2014you start to weaken the growth of our economy. When you\u2019ve got a massive predicted spend such as we have with the Provincial Growth Fund and with the free tertiary education for first-year students\u2014and, of course, I have said in the House before that I can hardly criticise that, because I got a free education myself and look where it got me. But the thing that worries me most is the way this money is being distributed, and to match that to some of the aspirations of the well-being Budget is very difficult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve yet to see any evidence of the Provincial Growth Fund and its spend being matched to well-being and people\u2019s better interests. One of the things that bugs me in this House are the bombastic comments of he who refers to himself as the first citizen of the provinces. Well, I hate to disappoint him, but, actually, the Governor-General is the first citizen of the provinces, and if he\u2019d ever read our constitution, he\u2019d find that out\u2014well, not the constitution, but the pieces that make it up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo I think that the real challenge we\u2019ve got in New Zealand is around the things that, basically, make people\u2019s lives better. If we\u2019re going to invest money in free education for those who were managing without the free education\u2014in other words, there\u2019s been no increase in those people getting into that business\u2014and splash money around the provinces in a manner that has yet to create more than about 45-odd jobs and has yet to create anything concrete for the people of our provinces who need a better lifestyle, then I think that\u2019s probably irresponsible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI think that when you look at our provincial areas, the places that really need money spending on them are health and education. That is particularly applicable to remote rural New Zealand, where services have been withdrawn over a number of years and where it\u2019s very difficult for young people to get a decent education because there\u2019s just not the scale or the bulk of people that can create an environment that\u2019s challenging and that also enables those schools to be able to provide the broad enough education for those kids going to those schools. Those are the challenges we face in rural and provincial New Zealand. It\u2019s not around growth. Tourism is doing well. Tourism is doing very well on the back of decisions of the last Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo those sorts of things are growing well in New Zealand. In fact, they\u2019ve grown too well in lots of parts in New Zealand, and now we\u2019re stretched for infrastructure to support them. That\u2019s where the Government needs to be spending its money\u2014on infrastructure that then provides jobs for those young people that live in rural and provincial New Zealand. I think that if we spent a lot more energy on that and a lot less energy on splashing money around things that don\u2019t matter so much, it would be a whole lot better for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ENow, I want to talk very briefly about the well-being Budget and the fact that we\u2019ve spent a lot of time defining well-being and quantifying well-being. We\u2019ve, basically, picked up an OECD definition of all this and adapted it to New Zealand\u2019s conditions, but we haven\u2019t adapted it to New Zealand\u2019s conditions\u2014we\u2019ve just picked it up. New Zealand\u2019s a very different country than the rest of the world, and we need to be specific in what we do. It\u2019s a great opportunity for us. If we want to go down the well-being path, it\u2019s a great opportunity for us to develop our own system, our own measurements, and our own accountability, and I\u2019ve got some serious doubts, having read all the information on this, that we\u2019ve actually got an accountability and reporting factor that will do us any good in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo I don\u2019t have a problem with embedding well-being in the Government\u2019s Budget Policy Statement, provided that we do it in an accountable manner, and I\u2019ve got serious doubts that we will do that. I think that there are some flaws in this system. I think that it will take a whole lot of rectifying and you\u2019ve got to have money to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef0cd0556f1146e1b49ccd6945764a51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef0cd0556f1146e1b49ccd6945764a51\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call\u2014five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u002255a11f7df5074f08969ec52cbb14093f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255a11f7df5074f08969ec52cbb14093f\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (Botany):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Assistant Speaker. The buzzword for this debate seems to be \u201Cwell-being Budget\u201D, and I congratulate the Government. That\u2019s good packaging, good marketing, and they\u2019re doing a good job of selling their approach to Budgets. But I also have to agree with my old friends on the National Party side that are, effectively, saying that well-being is what Governments always focus on, and that\u2019s true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EWhen I look at the Budget Policy Statement, I see that there\u2019s words in there about taking a long-term, intergenerational view, thinking broadly about impacts, positive and negative\u2014well, that\u2019s, effectively, social investment, and that\u2019s what Bill English and the National Government championed. So the Government\u2019s doing a good job in packaging and marketing their Budget as a well-being Budget. They\u2019ve, effectively, taken social investment and they\u2019ve rebranded it and are selling it as their own, and, you know, in Parliament, we spend all this time arguing who\u2019s right and who\u2019s wrong, but that\u2019s politics for us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EI am wanting to focus on the fifth of the five big goals of the Budget priorities for this Budget Policy Statement around supporting mental well-being for all New Zealanders. This is an important aspect that I think all New Zealanders are interested in. Mental health is a priority for any Government. It should have been the priority for the past Government, and I\u2019m glad it\u2019s a priority for this current Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EOf course, when we look at all of the wording that\u2019s out there in the approach to mental well-being and the approach taken in the report by the inquiry, there\u2019s a lot of focus on M\u0101ori well-being and M\u0101ori mental health. There\u2019s a lot of focus on young people as well, and that\u2019s true. M\u0101ori mental health challenges are greater than those that are non-M\u0101ori, and it\u2019s true that we have a very high proportion of young people that are ending their lives by way of suicide. It\u2019s the highest reason for deaths among young people. But I think we also need to remember that the highest rates of suicides in New Zealand occurred in males aged 25 to 44. That\u2019s an area that isn\u2019t often discussed. It doesn\u2019t often get headlines. Of course, a focus on youth and, of course, a focus on M\u0101ori and Pacific health and those issues do get a lot of attention, but let\u2019s not forget that males aged between 25 and 45 need a huge amount of support and focus, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003ESo I hope that when the Minister does put together his recommendations off the back of that inquiry, and I hope that when we discuss this in the future, we can also talk a lot more about males in that category, because they are hurting themselves at a higher rate, and that\u2019s not good enough. We need to ensure in New Zealand that males know it\u2019s OK to speak up and it\u2019s OK to ask for help and that we have community resources there to assist them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThe Mental Health Foundation was correct, I believe, when they put in their submission on the Budget Policy Statement that we need to move some of that balance to not just focusing almost solely on acute mental well-being and support there but also on community-based resources. Of course, if we take the well-being approach or the social investment approach\u2014whichever label we want to put on it\u2014if we don\u2019t address mental well-being early on and if we don\u2019t get in at the community level, and people do get to an acute point, then that ultimately costs the Government and the taxpayer more in the longer term. So my plea to the Government is to of course focus on mental well-being, as you are suggesting, but don\u2019t forget the men aged 25 to 45, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to other priorities in this Budget Policy Statement, when we look at the wider question of well-being, of course, we don\u2019t lift well-being in New Zealand unless we can address the standard of living. To address the standard of living, we have to address the cost of housing, and if we don\u2019t address the cost of housing properly, then all the well-being initiatives and all the approaches in the Budget won\u2019t amount to much, because the cost of housing is one of the highest costs that any New Zealander is going to face. If the barriers to homeownership and the cost of housing continue to be high and if Governments\u2014whether they\u2019re blue or red\u2014don\u2019t adequately address land supply, then we\u2019re not going to see much improvement in the standard of living and we\u2019re not going to see much improvement in the well-being of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003ESo I say to the Government that in all of their priorities in the Budget and everything that they do, we must also remember that we have to properly address housing affordability, and that\u2019s going to include land supply. If we don\u2019t get proper Resource Management Act reform and if we don\u2019t open up land more, then we\u2019re not going to see the runs on the board that we want for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003ESo in terms of the approach of this Budget Policy Statement, I think that if we were to take the politics out of it, whether we\u2019re blue or red or whatever colour, we could probably support that long-term approach. But approaches to mental health and approaches to the standard of living need to continue to be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd2f2e26842e42d58fc0b82754332e28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd2f2e26842e42d58fc0b82754332e28\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Kiritapu Allan\u2014five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u00226e7aff82474e4ff9b7ccf3f572c6f240\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e7aff82474e4ff9b7ccf3f572c6f240\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s an honour to be able to stand today in this House and speak to the first ever well-being Budget. I want to commend my senior colleague the Minister of Finance, the Hon Grant Robertson, and also the executive, who have wrapped around him in terms of showing leadership on the world stage, because we know that for over at least eight years, at an international level, the OECD has been promoting the fact that GDP in and of its own right is an insufficient measure to measure the well-being of a nation\u2019s growth. We all know that it misses a range of different considerations in terms of measuring, indeed, how productive a country can be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ENow, before I turn to my substantive points, I just want to make a brief comment on Jami-Lee Ross, the previous speaker, who drew an alignment between the previous Government\u2019s approach to investing in communities and what we\u2019re trying to do here with this well-being Budget. I must say that I have to fundamentally disagree with that previous speaker. This is a marked change from what the previous Government did over the past nine years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EWhat the previous Government did over the last nine years when they were in Government was systematically withdraw funds. They focused on fiscal objectives over all other indicia of well-being, which saw us\u2014a country that was one of the most accredited in the world for being one of the leaders in terms of the way that we looked after our community\u2014become, in just under a decade, one of the leaders in the highest youth suicide rates in the world. We had some of the highest-rising wage inequalities in such a brief period. We had a housing crisis that was monumental\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e50caff6956c4120a4de90db9a0f6c2f\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225becac75eb934b63b169bc923b707a83\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Whilst they may snigger across the aisle, I would, if I was in that position, feel ashamed of myself. A Government that sat there at the helm, with the public popularity that they had as well, and they failed to make any form of movement in terms of housing those that need to be homed, in terms of investing in the regions and creating jobs and actually giving young folks a bit of hope, and making sure that young people who were coming up through the ranks in our country\u2014why did we have that dearth? Why is it that New Zealand, one of the most productive countries\u2014well, we\u2019re not, actually. But, one of the most pristine countries in the world\u2014how come we had one of the highest suicide rates in the world? Because young people couldn\u2019t see themselves in our future. So that\u2019s really abhorrent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EAnyway, I just really wanted to mark away from the points that the previous speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022867f929b6f144d04a22d1a7ce579f518\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: That is trivialising an important issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227ee9c5750d6406ca4d26dc131fb81a2\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I disagree with that speaker as well. We\u2019re not trivialising it. We\u2019re making a statement that, actually, our Government\u2019s intending to do the exact opposite from what the previous Government were doing. They failed to recognise that there was a mental health crisis, they failed to recognise that there was a housing crisis, and they failed to invest in those people that deserved it the most. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ESo if we turn to what the well-being Budget does, and in terms of what the priorities are this year, let\u2019s look at that. Well, one of the things that we\u2019re doing is we\u2019re lifting M\u0101ori and Pacific incomes, skills, and opportunities. I must say that in terms of the submissions that we received on the Budget Policy Statement, we were inundated by M\u0101ori organisations, who, for the first time, I think, in a very long time, saw themselves recognised within the Budget Policy Statement objectives and the way that this Government was going about approaching how we assess well-being\u2014because you know what? This isn\u2019t something new. This is something that M\u0101ori have been doing for a very long time. If we want to talk about models and so on and so forth, Te Whare Tapa Wh\u0101 is a M\u0101ori model that does, effectively, summarise for us the way that we holistically approach well-being. So I want to commend our Minister of Finance for putting it into a policy form and requiring that every single member of his executive is required to show how they will, in this Budget bid coming up, align their objectives for the year with these core Budget policy objectives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe next one: reducing child poverty and improving child well-being\u2014again, something that the previous Government failed to do. We had one of the highest rates in the OECD of children living in poverty, and it was a shame. This is this country, here\u2014we had one of the highest rates. We turn to supporting mental well-being for all New Zealanders\u2014again, something that the previous Government failed to do. Now, every single one of these Ministers here is required to show that in some way, shape, or form, they are lifting and improving the lives of all New Zealanders. I am absolutely pleased to commend this Budget Policy Statement to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022207fde77da984ae39a6ab52a8728da95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022207fde77da984ae39a6ab52a8728da95\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. We\u2019ve heard some very impassioned, excited speeches today, and it\u2019s been a pleasure to listen to so many of our colleagues on the Finance and Expenditure Committee speak with such passion. I thought that Dr Deborah Russell spoke really well. She\u2019s one of the, I think, outstanding members of the Labour caucus, and I look forward to her elevation in due course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI also just heard, obviously, the full five whole minutes from Kiritapu Allan, and she also was very impassioned. She spoke about this being the Budget. No, it\u2019s not actually the Budget; it is, in fact, simply the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2019s report on, not the Budget, but the Budget Policy Statement. So when she talked about all the spending that was going on, actually, none of it is what\u2019s going on today. This is just a statement, a report back from the Finance and Expenditure Committee, of which Kiritapu Allan is a member, which is actually all about what the Budget\u2019s focus is going to be. So it\u2019s not quite what she said, but I thought that that impassioned, excited speech was possibly designed to set off Dr Deborah Russell, who is my personal favourite on the other side\u2014apart from, obviously, Michael Wood, who is also one of my personal favourites, and, of course, as we all know, the Hon Kris Faafoi, who is absolutely our personal favourite. So that should, by the way, finish them off completely with any careers in the Labour Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s come back to the issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f9875538a924868a66e42b85f8c9343\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: We can\u2019t vote for you, Judith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219af9cc6edd04cdaa464724b8e7070c5\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: And the Hon Carmel Sepuloni\u2014well, isn\u2019t she a delight? Just a pleasure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s come back to the Budget Policy Statement. Well, let\u2019s have a look at this well-being outlook\u2014oh, for goodness\u2019 sake. OK, creating opportunities for productive businesses, regions, iwi, and others, transition to a sustainable\u2014I mean, everyone would agree with most of this stuff, I would have thought. I would have thought most people would say that lifting M\u0101ori and Pacific incomes, skills, and opportunities is a good thing. Frankly, I\u2019d say that\u2019s good for everyone in New Zealand. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s race-specific, although I do acknowledge that M\u0101ori and Pasifika are very much overrepresented at the lower end of the income scale. But many M\u0101ori and Pasifika are not at that level. Many have done extremely well in life and continue to do so. So I think that\u2019s all about learning from those who have been able to do really well and seeing how we can do that better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EReducing child poverty and improving child well-being, including addressing family violence\u2014well, who could be against that? I\u2019m very on to that, and I think one of the best ways of doing that is to treat children as though they actually are humans. I think that\u2019s quite good\u2014respecting them. Every Government thinks \u201CWe\u2019re going to come in and do something on family violence.\u201D\u2014we certainly did\u2014and sometimes that works, but the vast majority of what Governments do does not work in this area, and I\u2019d be delighted to see something more innovative coming through that\u2019s going to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI thought this week we\u2019d hear from the Prime Minister in the press conference following the Cabinet meeting about what she was going to do about child poverty. I thought we\u2019d hear something stunning. What we heard instead was that she\u2019s going to ban ticket scalping. So \u201CBan ticket scalping\u201D was the topic in the post-Cabinet press conference from our Prime Minister of New Zealand. A whole lot of people who are supposedly affected by all the things they want to do in this Budget are not actually going to be worried about ticket scalping. What they want to know is what this Government is prepared to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhat we have seen today\u2014yet another example on KiwiBuild\u2014is a Government that\u2019s happy to sign up all sorts of contracts and not get much done. Contracts without an end, contracts that just go on and on and on\u2014currently $5.5 billion spent up in advance for 10,000 houses. The problem with that is that we\u2019ve got 300 buyers interested\u201410,000 houses. That\u2019s 10,000 houses over the next 10 years, and we have a Government that\u2019s also committed to 100,000 houses over those same 10 years. So if you take $5.5 billion and extrapolate that out by the power of 10, that\u2019s $55 billion set aside\u2014or, actually, one of the liabilities that this Government is signing us up for as fast as it can. The trouble is that we\u2019ve got 330 people interested in a KiwiBuild house. These are the sorts of decisions that actually make this Budget quite an important Budget, coming up, as to how this Government intends to address this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo when I look at the Budget Policy Statement, how could anyone not be in favour of supporting mental well-being for all New Zealanders, with a special focus on under-24-year-olds? We know that the Government has set up yet another working group on mental health\u2014230-something, they have now\u2014yet another one. We had some really good stuff happening in mental health that we\u2019d started, particularly around corrections and police. We had funding for police, and the reason why we had funding for police around mental health is that police are primarily the first responders in any mental health issue. Whether it is a suicide attempt, whether it\u2019s a suicide that has been completed, or whether it\u2019s a self-harming, it\u2019s the police who are phoned straight away, and ambulance as well at that stage. I was so distressed that the incoming Government cancelled the police\u2019s mental health funding that we had set aside from the justice sector fund for projects like this. That was an absolute disgrace. Now, that was 18 months ago. Let\u2019s see if this Budget actually reinstates that money\u2014let\u2019s see if it does. I doubt it will, because so much money is having to be put aside for things like KiwiBuild and other things of that ilk\u2014low-value spend, unfortunately\u2014because it is going to take up a lot of the fiscal room that the Minister of Finance has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe also see here that he would like to support a thriving nation in the digital age through innovation, social, and economic opportunities. Well, I think that\u2019s a good thing. I think most of us would agree on this side that that\u2019s a good thing. We\u2019re not quite sure how a capital gains tax is going to help that. Most of us would think that that\u2019s going to actually stop a lot of innovation and, let\u2019s say, investment in the digital age. One of the reasons I say that is that many start-up companies\u2014particularly in the IT software area\u2014don\u2019t have a lot of money to start with. So what they generally do is they tend to pay people quite a minimum wage, and at the same time they give them shares as part of their salary. We had to address this issue when I was the Minister of Revenue in the last Government. What we saw was that if we had gone after those shares in terms of capital gain, we would have forced those software development companies that have set up in places like Cambridge and all around regional New Zealand, as well as in the metropolitan areas, offshore. That is actually a very serious issue, because we would all agree, I think, in this House that the digital age is very much here to stay, and it is only going to grow more important for a country like New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s have a look at some of the issues that this Government is going to have to face in this Budget. We know that tourism has been a huge bonus for New Zealand over the last 10 years. We are very fortunate that we have had some very good tourism numbers coming through in increases. That\u2019s not something we can guarantee, and I think that the Budget Policy Statement would have done well to address the fact that we are living in quite uncertain times. I say that, having heard Air New Zealand, the biggest provider, I would have thought, of tourism services in New Zealand, saying just the other day that international tourism numbers are down. We know that China cancelled\u2014unilaterally, it appears\u2014the Year of Tourism between China and New Zealand. That is something we should be very concerned about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo I would like to have seen these issues addressed. It\u2019s all very well saying \u201CLet\u2019s all be happy and have great well-being\u201D, and we all agree with saying \u201CLet\u2019s all be happy and have great well-being.\u201D, but also we have to have a way of encouraging business at the same time and encouraging good employment, encouraging good wages, encouraging people to stay in New Zealand, and encouraging tourism. But what we don\u2019t seem to see in this Budget Policy Statement is any statement at all about where the money comes from\u2014not a dicky-bird about where the money comes from. It\u2019s all just \u201CLet\u2019s have world peace and happiness.\u201D Everyone wants world peace and happiness\u2014especially me, because everyone in this House will know what a peaceful person I am. We do want to have that, but you\u2019ve got to have the money to produce all the things you want to give away as a Government, and that\u2019s the issue here. There\u2019s nothing solid, nothing concrete, about building the economy. They\u2019re talking about it, but there\u2019s nothing in here, in the detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb35a11e2e324c8ca8d9db68892aa719\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb35a11e2e324c8ca8d9db68892aa719\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e Te Mana Whakaw\u0101. Well, that was the same old stuff we\u2019ve come to expect from a tired old Opposition, but what I\u2019m excited about is the fact that we are doing something different, something challenging, something innovative, and, in fact, something which leads the world. I have just heard that the last Government tried to address family violence, tried to address\u2014so they say\u2014housing, tried to address this, and tried to address that, and made what? No meaningful progress. So we\u2019re not going to do it the same; we\u2019re going to do it differently. We\u2019re going to do it a way that no one else has done it before. The Minister\u2019s going to present a Budget which looks across all of a New Zealander\u2019s wellness\u2014not just asking how do we make sure that incomes are good or that tax is brought in, but asking a whole lot of questions that, to be frank, no Government before this Government has asked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t apologise for asking questions about community connectedness, about civic engagement, about life satisfaction, and about cultural identity. I don\u2019t apologise for that at all, because a meaningful life, a life which is flourishing, a life which we can value and respect, includes those things. In fact, it would be remiss of us not to have a system which takes into account those really important values. Well, this Budget is called the well-being Budget because it\u2019s more than just an absence of malaise, an absence of sickness, and an absence of failure. It\u2019s actually an aspirational Budget\u2014a Budget that says, no matter how good things are, we can do even better. It\u2019s wellness because it\u2019s not just about one thing. It\u2019s not just about a part of the body; it\u2019s about the whole body\u2014body, mind, and soul. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe can look at some physical and some tangible measures, as indeed we should. We mustn\u2019t forget, and we will not forget, the importance of a thriving productive sector: the rural sector, the intellectual property sector. We\u2019ve been examining research and development and the need to stimulate that, and the Minister is doing a great job in making sure that we have a vibrant innovation sector. That is a critical part of the economy, so that we generate the important wealth that can be used to support and enhance other aspects. But we also need, at the same time, to be looking at other measures\u2014not only looking at what we earn as a nation, but how many hours do we spend earning that? Far too many. We\u2019re one of the least productive. We might be generating a respectable GDP, but at the expense of time doing other things, things we love\u2014being in the outdoors, spending time with family. We need to focus on our productivity as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe also need to look at the spread of that income. The fact is that many of our people\u2014people who are doing highly valued jobs caring for our elderly, working in our warehouses, driving those forklifts\u2014are being paid a wage which cannot support a family, and we need to address that as well. I\u2019m very proud that we\u2019re raising the minimum wage, and aiming high. We\u2019re aiming for an income upon which a family can be supported\u2014a genuine living wage. So that\u2019s an equity issue. It\u2019s not just about how much; it\u2019s about where it goes as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s the same with the housing market. We need more houses\u2014we all know that. We know that we\u2019ve got 1,100 more State houses already. We know that KiwiBuild has over 10,000 houses under contract already. We know we need more houses, but we also need good housing stock. It\u2019s about quality. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve got the healthy homes guarantee\u2014why we want to see renters in homes that are warm and dry. It\u2019s simply not good enough to say, \u201CThat will drive up the rents. You should be living in a cold, draughty house with bronchitis and freezing cold so you can\u2019t sleep at night because you want a house at a low rent.\u201D That\u2019s just not good enough. Firstly, there\u2019s no evidence for it, and this is an evidence-based Government. Secondly, everyone is entitled to a home which is warm, and dry, and safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAll this needs to be done with an eye on the future. We can talk about intergenerational equity, and we need to recognise that we have not done right, so far, to future generations\u2014that there has been a slipping. We look at our rivers, our fresh water, and the quality that has been falling behind, and we should be ashamed. We can look at how we deal with waste and recognise that there is a burgeoning problem here in New Zealand as to the amount of waste we generate, and we look at our carbon profile and the fact is something\u2019s got to change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAgain, some brave decisions have been made. The fact is that in the future there will be no further offshore exploration for oil and gas, and I don\u2019t apologise for that either, because it\u2019s time we started thinking of some new ideas. If we are going to be zero carbon in 2035, we\u2019ve got to make some important decisions in a just way, in a way which recognises that change is necessary, and that change, in particular, is an incremental one. There are permits and exploration permits out there which extend into 2050. So let\u2019s not pretend that that\u2019s going to happen overnight. It\u2019s being undertaken in a very careful, managed, fair way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m very proud that that decision\u2019s been made and that there\u2019s a whole lot of work being done to make sure that that transition is just and fair to everyone, that jobs are protected, and that, indeed, with the Provincial Growth Fund\u2014which is a great example\u2014further jobs are created. We\u2019ve seen some fantastic grants right across the country, including Taranaki, which, to be fair, is where our oil and gas industry is primarily located. So that Provincial Growth Fund is really looking after the regions, and we know that when prosperity is driven in the regions, New Zealand as a whole does well. So we need to absolutely recognise that and recognise the intergenerational aspect of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut I want to also focus on those less tangible things\u2014the things that, to be fair, are more difficult to measure. But we need to not shy away from that and to get out there and start measuring them\u2014things like the connectedness of our communities, our cultural identity. How many of our children can speak Te Reo? It\u2019s something I wish I\u2019d been taught at school. How many of our children can communicate across all of our many and diverse cultures? How many of our immigrants have preserved their own language, their own cultural identity? We need to learn that they are taonga. They\u2019re treasures that we need to hold dear so that people can feel connected within their own special community but also across communities. Let\u2019s start looking at that, examining it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s also recognise the connectedness of all of these things. One thing we do know is that when a society is educated, it is prosperous. It is prosperous and its health improves. All of those things need to be addressed, so let\u2019s recognise further that all education is worthy. Let\u2019s not focus only on a narrow band. Let\u2019s respect and promote and protect scholarship in the arts, scholarship in the humanities\u2014those things which enhance and preserve all of our traditions\u2014and recognise the important skills learnt in the trades. The fact that craft is a fantastic skill to have, the idea that we need to respect and value those people that do physical tasks: the carpenters, the plumbers\u2014all of those people who support us with highly skilled trades with a technical background. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really proud of what the Minister of Education is doing, looking at the trades and the polytech sector and saying \u201CNot good enough.\u201D That sector is really important to enhance our community as we go forward. We are going to look at that. We are going to not be afraid to make significant structural change if needed and to enhance and improve that sector, which is a critical part of our community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThese are all brave decisions. This is a new way of looking at things and that is exactly what\u2019s needed. This wellness Budget is a world first. It\u2019s a great Government to be part of and I\u2019m very proud of it. Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022061f2400b32646a6bab6380cfcce6974\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the House take note of the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the Budget Policy Statement 2019. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f18c3a125ce94269b0f4283d63e73565\u0022\u003EArbitration Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228caff45ba96e40f09e16467a5747e887\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000390\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 12 December 2018.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00225f6755d9c692447d88c48301abe78ece\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f6755d9c692447d88c48301abe78ece\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to stand and take a call on this, the second reading of the Arbitration Amendment Bill. A couple of things: the first thing I want to start with\u2014and it does relate to this bill and it relates to this bill because I\u2019m talking about international arbitration, and this bill is actually going to have, I think, a very positive effect for us as a nation in terms of being seen as a genuine destination, location, for international arbitration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut if you remember the passage of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) agreement, and I sat on the select committee that had the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement come through it, there was a lot of concern around the investor-State dispute settlement (ISDS) provisions, and the ISDS provisions relate directly to the international arbitration or the arbitration that would be required if there was a dispute contained inside that free-trade agreement or in the Combined and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, as it\u2019s called now. During that debate, there was a lot of opposition around the ISDS provisions and, actually, the TPP free-trade agreement from the Government, from Labour. I noticed that when they went from Opposition to Government, they very quickly embraced that agreement. And that was a good thing because, in terms of trade, historically, both the major parties in this House have tried to support and make sure that there was good quality. Yes, I\u2019m going to narrow it and come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022889aedc3ca774b948a0138f5f1ee73c6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re going to get there pretty soon, I hope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ca3f04583345ceb7571a07e0b7bab4\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to narrow it and come back to the bill. The point that I\u2019m making is this: the reason why there was so much tension around the ISDS provisions was because there wasn\u2019t a high level of confidence in terms of where the jurisdiction would be and how that process would actually be undertaken. And so the reason why having this Arbitration Amendment Bill in the House is so good is that it\u2019s actually strengthening our own legislation in New Zealand that will help us be seen as a genuine location for people to come and actually have international arbitration cases heard here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been sitting in the House today and I\u2019ve been listening to a lot of speeches running this down. I was very lucky recently to have a visit to Hong Kong, which of course now is part of Mainland China and they recognise that: one country but two very different systems. And the thing that Hong Kong has been very, very good at doing\u2014and they identified that there was a clear opportunity around international arbitration\u2014is they\u2019ve set themselves up as a hub to be able to attract a lot of that global business, and they\u2019re doing very, very well. They\u2019ve recognised that there\u2019s actually massive international investment going on, especially around infrastructure and that there\u2019s actually a genuine opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI see here that every case heard in New Zealand around international arbitration is worth, on average, $1 million to the local economy. So if we just stop and reflect on that and we just think about creating and being seen ourselves as a genuine location destination for international arbitration, just think about the amount of revenue that we can actually generate through that professional service in itself. The reason why this bill is going to help us be seen even more as a destination for this type of professional service is because we\u2019re already highly trusted. We already have very strong institutions. We have a very strong judicial system. We\u2019re seen as one of the least corrupt countries in the world. And so for Andrew Bayly to bring this bill\u2014and I just want to acknowledge, actually, Paul Foster-Bell, who, I think, was the original sponsor of this bill and brought this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252124f1a961148758f5b18527938f2ba\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Chris Finlayson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a458e54c4d8546d19ad193b0c1623700\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225338a1ad96e945bb9dc6d4dc0abcf4bc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Chris Finlayson, maybe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9aec415cb064fab8c903cdbf69729e4\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s Chris Finlayson? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5b4c46135ab4629b49e10035e5db143\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think he initiated it, didn\u2019t he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022612837f0c3404c589e0037ebf75fcfce\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I think Paul Foster-Bell brought it originally, but the Hon Chris Finlayson did have a lot of work to do on it too, Mr Speaker. You\u2019re right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo if I could acknowledge both of them, it would be appropriate, but especially Paul Foster-Bell as the original sponsor of this bill, taking it to the first reading. So can I acknowledge him for bringing it into the House, but now can I acknowledge Andrew Bayly, who has religiously come to the select committee during the deliberation and debate around this bill. It\u2019s his input, in terms of the changes that have been made. So can I acknowledge him and the work that he\u2019s done around removing clause 6(4) and other considerations. Well done to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo I would just like to finish my contribution by again just reinforcing and restating that, in actual fact, although this arbitration bill has gone a long way to making sure that it\u2019s much fairer, that it\u2019s easier to access, that it removes pressure from our own courts system, not only for our own people\u2014for Kiwis\u2014but it\u2019s also setting us up to develop a genuine professional service that could be world leading and could create very strong revenues and opportunities for us as a country. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u00226da158fbaba54e6fa1314957b3ddf2f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226da158fbaba54e6fa1314957b3ddf2f3\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a real pleasure to speak on the second reading of the Arbitration Amendment Bill. This bill is incredibly technical in nature, and because I didn\u2019t sit on the select committee that heard all the submissions about the bill or was not part of the deliberations, I\u2019m going to keep my comments to be quite high level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EJust thinking about arbitration and the differences between arbitration and going through full court proceedings, there is a number of issues relevant to that, which are highlighted in this bill. I think the first one is that parties can choose their own arbitrator, and I think that\u2019s really important in terms of having somebody who understands the technical nature of the disputes that you\u2019re involved in. And this bill touches on some of those aspects to make them a fairer process. The second thing is that often disputes can be resolved much more quickly by arbitration than by waiting for the full court process to work its way through. And the third thing is that arbitration is usually conducted in private while court proceedings are generally not, and that\u2019s something, again, that this bill touches on, in particular. It\u2019s really important, when you\u2019re dealing with disputes of a commercial nature, to be able to have many of those considerations deliberated on in private. Finally, arbitration has that added advantage that it reduces the pressure on our stretched courts system because it allows a lot of disputes just to be settled via arbitration as opposed to taking up that valuable court time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ELabour supported this bill to select committee because we felt that it did make some big improvements to the arbitration framework; however, what we did signal quite early on at the first reading was that we had a number of concerns, particularly about the changes that were being proposed to the confidentiality of those court proceedings. We wanted to be able to spend that time during the select committee process hearing from submitters and considering what the best way forward was in that area. There were a number of changes to the original bill that were made during the select committee, and so Labour members are happy to support the bill in the amended form. And so what I just want to do is go through in a bit more detail some of those key aspects, and I think the first and most important one relates to making sure that we have retained that open justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EAs I was saying, the default in arbitration is that those proceedings are conducted in private, and that\u2019s really important when you\u2019ve got parties talking about disputes of a commercial nature. People need to be able to get on and do that. However, the issue is that once arbitration is elevated to courts, then the default is that the proceedings are conducted in public, although either party could apply for some or all of those proceedings to be, again, heard in private. So clause 5 of the bill, what it was hoping to do was extend that presumption of confidentiality through to court proceedings related to arbitration, and this was one of the things that was mentioned as a way of then making it much more attractive for people internationally to come to New Zealand, in terms of having arbitration. What this bill, basically, then tried to do was reverse the presumption that proceedings should be happening in public. What it just said is that it allowed the court to make a direction regarding how that information would be published, and making that much more restrictive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThe problem we\u2019ve got is that that goes against the principle of open justice, because the public need to know, one, what the law is, and then, secondly, they need to know how it\u2019s being applied. Basically, what you\u2019ve actually got under the current provisions is that there is still flexibility in that respect, because, while the presumption is that the proceedings will be heard in public, it still allows a court order for whole or part of the proceedings to be conducted in private if it is believed that the public interest is outweighed by the interests of any of the parties involved. And so it was the view of Labour members that the current legislation did strike the right balance between open justice and the private nature of that legislative process. We were considering whether extending that presumption of confidentiality to court proceedings would make New Zealand an international hub for arbitration and, basically, I think the feeling of the Labour members was that it wasn\u2019t sufficient of an advantage to displace the presumption of open justice, in Labour members\u2019 views, and so we were keen to preserve that open justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a couple of other things that the bill does do, however, that have been retained, and one was reducing the possibility of late jurisdictional challenges. What the bill does is insert additional clauses, and what we\u2019re trying to do here is reduce the possibility that a party could raise a late procedural challenge on jurisdictional grounds, which could invalidate the award after both parties have spent a lot of time and expense arriving at it\u2014if they were sensing that that award was not going to go in their favour. So what this bill does is it inserts clauses that talk about this, and there were some minor changes to the wording, which happened as a result of the select committee deliberations. Basically, now the clause states that \u201Cfailure to pursue a request made under paragraph (3) in a timely manner operates as a waiver of any right to later object to a ruling of the arbitral tribunal as to its jurisdiction.\u201D That\u2019s really important; people need to know that they\u2019re committed to that whole process and that somebody can\u2019t pull out quite far down the line after all that expense has been put in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThe other one that was looked at was the process for the appointment of arbitrators, and the committee considered some of the issues around the appointment process because selecting who is going to do that arbitration is one of the key parts of the process. So, at present, there\u2019s a clause in Schedule 2 that sets out the default process if people can\u2019t agree, and it\u2019s often called the \u201Cquick draw\u201D procedure, and what that means is that one party can trigger a process to appoint an arbitrator if the other party fails to respond to communications within seven days. The select committee received quite a lot of strong submissions that that particular clause should be repealed, and while it\u2019s not in the amended bill, what the committee recommended was that a new clause should be inserted, when we get to the committee of the whole House stage, that would effect those changes. It was felt that it was really important that we didn\u2019t have that \u201Cquick draw\u201D procedure, meaning that there wasn\u2019t that consensus on who should be doing the arbitration. There are a whole lot of other aspects that were covered in the bill, around trusts and other technical matters, but I\u2019ve tried to highlight what I thought were the three sorts of key important ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESo, just in summary, arbitration is really, really important as a way of working our way through disputes of a commercial or other nature, and what we were keen to see was a number of improvements around that to make that a better process. So what we\u2019ve done is introduce the clauses which reduce the possibility of having late procedural challenges just on jurisdictional grounds\u2014around where people have invested a lot of time and money and process into that process to date. And also, while the change hasn\u2019t been put into the amended bill, the expectation is that once we get to the committee of the whole House stage further changes would be made, including addressing that \u201Cquick draw\u201D procedure so that there is a bit more of a consensus around the selection of arbitrators.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill as amended still preserves the principle of open justice and ensuring that the public knows what the law is and how it\u2019s being applied, and so what it does is retain the assumption that, when arbitration ends up in court, the proceedings will be heard in public. So this is an important bill, and I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u0022daccc5ff196a4e7cb75f364ae905155f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022daccc5ff196a4e7cb75f364ae905155f\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to stand in support of the Arbitration Act 1996 amendment bill. This bill, basically, amends the original Act and brings in some changes. I would like to acknowledge Andrew Bayly, the present sponsor of this bill, for bringing this, and I would also like to acknowledge Paul Foster-Bell, the original sponsor of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EAs we know, the arbitration process is a way that some commercial and other disputes can be resolved, and I feel that, with arbitration, we can have the services of some experts who can contribute in many matters. As we know, in court sometimes technical issues don\u2019t get resolved because the judges are not expert on some of those issues. As was mentioned earlier, in the recent signing of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, there was also a clause where arbitration was an issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EI would like to give an example of where international multinational companies take those cases to a neutral place where they feel that arbitration will be the best outcome for their dispute. I was reading one of the reports recently where a company in India sold their business for multimillion dollars and there was a dispute later on between both entities, and that was taken to Singapore, where it was resolved. And once we update our Arbitration Act over here, it is possible that for companies\u2014because, internationally, New Zealand has got a good reputation for being transparent and independent\u2014those arbitration cases can come to New Zealand, and that can be helpful for the economy. I remember that that particular case which I have mentioned earlier was resolved over a period of more than six months, and a lot of money was spent over there, which benefited the Singapore economy. We know that Singapore and Hong Kong are two very popular places where international arbitration takes place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, arbitration is an effective method of resolving commercial and other disputes. We should have a proper mechanism available for companies to resolve these issues, and international arbitration, as I said, is growing with time. In the last two decades, we have seen that more and more cases are being resolved through arbitration. Every arbitration case heard in New Zealand averages about a million dollars to the local economy, including the usage of conference centres, hiring of accommodation, and other means. That means that if we are able to encourage people to use New Zealand as a centre, then our economy will be helped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EAnother part of arbitration is that privacy and confidentiality are frequently cited as defining characteristics of the valuable benefits of arbitration\u201487 percent of respondents to our survey said that it is one of the best ways to resolve their cases, and it was also mentioned that the commercially important aspect not be made public. Most respondents\u2014about 74 percent\u2014believe that confidentiality should be an opt-out rather than opt-in feature. We understand that these issues can\u2019t be resolved quickly, but we have to have a mechanism available. Improving the arbitration proceedings generally in New Zealand is also an important objective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EThis is because when disputes arise, many New Zealanders genuinely want to be able to access professionally run alternative resolution systems, because sometimes the court process becomes very expensive and people don\u2019t want to take that route because it will be a very lengthy process as well as being an expensive process. There are many reasons for this. Arbitration is a bona fides option as it offers advantages\u2014a much cheaper process for resolving disputes. It is often quicker and, compared to the court process, it is less confrontational and is a logical first step for resolving these issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EOnce again, I stand in support of, and acknowledge, Andrew Bayly for his contribution in getting this bill to this stage, and I would also like to acknowledge the Justice Committee for their contribution and for their deliberations on this. Some of the recommendations which have been made will be coming up at the committee of the whole House, and they will be resolved there. With these words, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022874731ba50664e7194e11348f94f5634\u0022\u003ELitter (Increased Infringement Fee) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002200fe2733dfd748d6acc56ddac89210bb\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002204294582419642a1a6679e325714016d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204294582419642a1a6679e325714016d\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Litter (Increased Infringement Fee) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIn doing so, I want to just remind the House of what the simple but effective intent of this bill is, and it is to amend the Litter Act, that was first passed in this House back in the 1970s and has been amended a couple of times but not substantially rewritten, so that district councils around the countryside can increase the maximum infringement fine payable for littering from, what I consider to be, a measly $400 to a new maximum of $1,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis bill is not of itself a silver bullet in terms of providing answers to litter and litter issues around the nation, but it is intended to be something of an additional tool that can be used by councils to get over some of the challenges that they have in terms of administering the current infringement process and making it worth their while, whilst at the same time ensuring that litterers actually get a very clear message that littering is not acceptable behaviour and that, where they are caught, infringement notices will and can be issued and that those notices will have a maximum penalty of up to $1,000. Now, what this bill doesn\u2019t do is provide that the maximum should be the minimum. So councils would, under this legislation if it\u2019s passed by the House, eventually be able to move within a range of dollar values up to that $1,000 maximum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge and thank the members of the Environment Committee that have recommended in their report back to this House that the bill be passed with a couple of amendments. One of the amendments suggested from the select committee is that clause 4 be removed and that clause 5 and a new clause 6 be inserted to change and improve the clarity of the principal Act without altering the legal effect of the Act. Those are amendments that I support. I want to thank members who diligently paid attention to the submitters. I want to thank and acknowledge the chair of the committee, Dr Deborah Russell, who surely must be, as this Government enters the second half of its term, ready for promotion to Cabinet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe committee received 13 submissions on the bill and we heard only three oral submissions. Five councils made written submissions and all were in support, although I did notice that the submission from the Hamilton council actually was in blank, and I guess that was not meant to be a littering matter but it was duly noted that the Hamilton council\u2019s submission was in blank and we took that to be in support. The majority of the individual submissions were in support, with several calling for the penalty that is being nominated actually to be higher. There were a couple of submissions that were opposed. One supported the general intent of the bill but thought that the increase would not be effective, and another thought that the proposed fine maximum was out of proportion with other littering offences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo why is an infringement regime useful in terms of councils being able to sort out their litter issues? Well, quite simply, it is because the other option is to proceed through a long, detailed, expensive, and legalistic court process for littering. That option applies and is available to councils, both regional and district, in order to perform their role in trying to control litter bugs and littering around their regions. But, as I say, it\u2019s expensive, it\u2019s time-consuming, it\u2019s legalistic, it involves lawyers and courts, and it may not necessarily always be the best use of our judicial system\u2019s court time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAn infringement process actually is very effective. It\u2019s quick, it\u2019s efficient, and it works. Ironically, at the same time that this bill was before the Environment Committee another bill going through the select committee process relating to setting up an infringement fine notice regime for the conservation rangers in the Department of Conservation (DOC) was also going through the committee. It\u2019s interesting to note that some of the arguments that were used in favour of DOC officers and rangers being able to operate an infringement fine process were exactly contrary to the arguments that were being used by officials and others in terms of this piece of legislation, and just as a layperson looking at lawyers trying to justify things I found that quite fascinating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo here we have what is essentially a test for this Government. It\u2019s a test of their commitment to actions rather than just mere words, and the commitment that I seek from them will be to support this bill, not because it intends to be a magic wand and a silver bullet that solves all our waste issues or all our litter issues, but because it sends a clear message of support from this Parliament to the district councils around the countryside who are trying to fight a battle against litter and litter bugs. I think that as a Parliament we should be supporting those efforts and we should be actually sending a strong, clear, decisive message to not only councils that we support their work in this area but also to the people who choose to litter. This is a test of the Government\u2019s commitment\u2014of the coalition Government\u2019s commitment\u2014to the environment, to their often quoted words about reducing waste and litter, and minimising waste and stuff that goes to landfill, and it\u2019s a test of their commitment to the slogans and campaigning rhetoric that they have used in past campaigns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo this is about making words real and making actions count. One of the questions is where do the Greens sit on this? I had an interesting exchange of text communications with Minister Sage, as that party\u2019s representative, and as a result of that initially they seemed to be in support. There was a bit of a haggling about the prices, and now it seems that they are opposed to this. So that speaks volumes about their commitment to the environment and their commitment to supporting regional and district councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to just highlight one of the examples that occurred in my electorate over the summer period. As the member of Parliament for Coromandel, nothing really irritates me as much as driving around or walking around my electorate and seeing the amount of litter that is literally on the side of roads, in drains, in cavities, and what have you. It\u2019s a problem that is exacerbated during the summer period when we get literally hundreds of thousands of extra visitors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252d83ee5181b494bbb0cb244d08cdfde\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CLitteraly!\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a0d1586b8264fa8b1a679f88a0e5151\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, literally\u2014good pun, Mr Speaker. I hasten to add, I don\u2019t want to draw you into the debate. But the Thames-Coromandel District Council tries its best and they work very hard. There was a case in January of this year, and some members will be aware of this. An eagle-eyed resident of the Thames Coast spotted a tourist defecating around the rocks on the beautiful Thames Coast, and this good citizen\u2014I\u2019ve taken the liberty of not providing a particularly large photograph of this, but here was the photograph that accompanied the infringement fine. But the maximum fine\u2014the maximum fine\u2014the infringement notice that the council could impose on this awful situation, which regrettably happens far too often around the beautiful Coromandel, was the existing maximum, which is $400. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s enough. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s nearly enough in terms of sending a message to people who not only litter with paper and cigarette butts and what have you, but choose to litter with human waste. I don\u2019t think that sends nearly a strong enough message to people or to councils about the tools that are available to them to work in this area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAs I said, this is a test of this coalition Government\u2019s commitment to the environment, to their support for regional and district councils, and I\u2019ll be looking forward to seeing whether they support this legislation through to the committee stage of the whole House, or whether in fact they choose to reject the support of councils and reject the attack on litter and litter bugs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House and I thank the committee for its work. I\u2019m keen to see what the Government has to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00222e99d15914e04b1798605b2f18837acc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e99d15914e04b1798605b2f18837acc\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare. I wish to begin by thanking the members of the Environment Committee for their work on this bill. It was one on which we enjoyed hearing the submissions and I think all my colleagues on the committee worked together well on this bill. I\u2019d also like to thank the officials who did the work on this bill, particularly the newish policy analyst for whom this was the first bill that she had worked on and presented to a select committee, so she did very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere was a story on the Titirangi Facebook page a few days ago. It was actually posted by a neighbour of mine\u2014literally a neighbour, the next house over, outside the bus stop. She had found a fish crate full of rotting fish heads dumped outside their place. I think someone must\u2019ve come up from\u2014it would have been from French Bay or from Titirangi Beach and discarded the fish heads right outside her place. It stunk. She did the hard work and got rid of the rotten fish heads. She said they were crawling with maggots. I think it was a fairly revolting process for her, possibly almost as revolting as the picture which Mr Simpson just introduced into the House. So littering is a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to continue with some stories on this. I go for a regular Monday walk in the mornings. Sometimes it\u2019s leafleting, as one does when one is involved in politics, but mostly it\u2019s down to French Bay and some of the beautiful waterways around in my electorate. But just this Monday morning when I went off walking down by the French Bay yacht club, [shows photos] I came across this bag, stuffed full of\u2014I think it was old clothes, just dumped there by the French Bay public lands down there, and just a few metres from it these two rubbish sacks, again, stuffed full of clothes. I mean, what puzzled me is that someone had clearly gone to the effort of putting these clothes into bags, but then they couldn\u2019t find the proper place to dispose of them, so they just dumped them in my neighbourhood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EA final story, and this one comes from the Taranaki Daily News, where it was published the other day, is talking about why one Taranaki woman is collecting 10,000 cigarette butts. She raises the point that actually cigarette butts are the biggest cause of litter. They\u2019re the biggest source of litter and she says they\u2019re worse than plastic in many ways because they are so incredibly toxic. So she\u2019s collecting 10,000 of them to make a point and to ask people to do better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat all these stories show is that littering is a problem and it\u2019s something that people actually mind about, that we actually want to do something about, hence this bill, which has come back from the Environment Committee with a number of tidy-up changes in it. The department took the opportunity to just introduce some minor changes and to suggest them to us, so we did that. But the substantive change is the one that would increase the infringement fee for littering from $400 dollars to $1,000. That\u2019s a substantial change in the fee. So the question is: is it appropriate? We need to think about that quite carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s something quite important in the Litter Act\u2014because this bill amends the Litter Act, and in particular in the Litter Act one of the issues there is exactly how one gets caught in the act of littering and therefore might attract a fine. As it turns out, local authorities can appoint enforcement officers and enforcement officers can issue fines up to that level, at the moment, of $400, based on the local authority\u2019s own rules. They can do it summarily to prevent the deposit or attempted deposit of litter in any public place. What that means is that the enforcement officer needs to see the act of littering actually taking place. They need to be there, right there and then. So all those cigarette butts tossed aside idly\u2014no fine can be issued unless the enforcement officer is right there, then and there, to impose the fine. That\u2019s probably the case with cigarette butts because it\u2019s very hard to identify them. But they can also impose a fine if they\u2019ve got good reason to believe that the deposit or attempted deposit of litter has been made by a particular person. In that case, an officer would need to have some way of identifying the person who had actually dumped the litter. In other words, it\u2019s a fairly immediate sort of activity. The enforcement officer really needs to be there or to have some pretty good evidence, and, of course, that\u2019s simply not the case with a lot of litter. Those McDonald\u2019s wrappers\u2014they don\u2019t actually have names on them. The cigarette butts don\u2019t have names on them, and, generally, that kind of littering doesn\u2019t get reported\u2014unruly tourists aside, or Mr Simpson\u2019s friends in the Coromandel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s a real problem with littering. It\u2019s not the level of the fine, necessarily. The problem is having enough enforcement officers. The problem is actually enforcing the fine. I think this is a point that was brought up in some of the submissions against the bill. Mr Speaker, as I think you might know, I\u2019m an habitu\u00E9 of Twitter. I rather enjoy engaging on Twitter with various people, and, of course, I know various people through Twitter. Last night, there was a bit of a discussion about the law going on, and a friend of mine, Liam Hehir, who I think is probably known to various members on the opposite side of the House, had an interesting tweet. He said\u2014because it was a conversation which Graeme Edgeler had entered\u2014\u201CIf you mention the law in a tweet, then it summons Graeme. Now you have to try to trick him into saying his name backwards.\u201D\u2014that would be to get rid of him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWell, we mentioned something about the law and fines and the like in this House, and public law, and then Graeme came along. Graeme Edgeler was one of the submitters who came and talked to us in the select committee about this particular bill, and he raised some real concerns. He said that one of the reasons that he was opposed to this bill was that the fine was out of all proportion. He identified the problem with actually catching someone in the act of littering, and then he said that the fine proposed\u2014up to $1,000\u2014was out of all proportion to the maximum fines suggested for other offences. He said that, actually, the maximum infringement fee of $400 was already in line with other infringement fees for things like speeding or drink-driving, and substantially higher than the fines imposed for parking infringements. So there\u2019s a real issue of parity floating through this bill. Is it reasonable to have a fine of $1,000 for littering?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EInterestingly, the department was unhappy with that as well and did a bit of analysis, and they said that, really, if we were going to keep this fine in reasonable proportion, then based on inflation rates, the fine level might be lifted up to, say, $500, but not $1,000\u2014but not $1,000. It\u2019s too much. On this side of the House, we are persuaded by that view, and that is the reason as to why we will be opposing this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, we have been told that this particular bill is a test of the Government\u2019s commitment to a clean environment. I\u2019ll tell you what\u2019s a sign of our commitment to a clean environment, and that will be the climate change legislation that comes in front of us. Our commitment to conservation is shown in the $76 million we\u2019ve just added to the Department of Conservation\u2019s funding. Our commitment to conservation is showing we want to do the real work, not the trivia of increasing fines. We are not interested in punishing people, we are not interested in making people subject to the silliest of infringement offences, and we are not interested in whacking huge fines on just for the sake of it. We are interested in proportionality and fairness. That\u2019s what we\u2019re about on this side of the House. So I invite the opposite side of the House, I invite the Opposition, to have a little think about that number\u2014to have a little think and, perhaps, a little discussion with us. But when the number remains at $1,000, we cannot in good conscience support this bill. I oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac81f2668450439abee088a95c1ecdda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac81f2668450439abee088a95c1ecdda\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call Todd Muller, I am going to ask Mr Simpson not to wave that picture around again. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u0022253a9fff50364815b972bea43efa4f5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022253a9fff50364815b972bea43efa4f5b\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Well, well, well. For the last 10 minutes\u2014well, actually, no, not for the last 10 minutes; for eight minutes of the last 10 minutes, Deborah Russell tried her \u201CI\u2019m going to be reasonable\u201D and then, in the last 120 seconds, the oxygen changed and suddenly we just went \u201Cpoof\u201D and something else appeared in front of our screens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ENow, what I find absolutely remarkable, as I begin my comments on the Litter (Increased Infringement Fee) Amendment Bill, second reading, is when you listen to the conversation that, at least for the first eight minutes, we were blessed with, Deborah Russell was stepping through the various examples that she finds in her electorate of rubbish, of litter, of community concern, and of frustration. She then talked to the select committee process that we had, where we had the city councils\u2014five of them\u2014speak strongly in favour of the fact that they needed more teeth in terms of the infringement penalty that\u2019s at stake. But then, right at the last minute, she then says, \u201CBut you know what, $1,000 is too much, and I\u2019m convinced by some academic who made a pitch right at the end of the submission.\u201D Well, I\u2019m sorry, you\u2019re either for the environment or you\u2019re not, Deborah. You\u2019re either for actually listening to your community or not. You can\u2019t give a speech for eight minutes talking about the size of the problem, talking about the fact that your community want action, and talking about the fact that from a Government perspective you listen, and then finally, at the last hurdle, say, \u201CI\u2019m sorry, but we think $1,000 is too much.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWell, that\u2019s a fail from my perspective. It\u2019s a complete fail, because if you actually look\u2014which I\u2019m sure you did, because we had to pore through the detail of this legislation\u2014you would see that, actually, what is proposed by my learned colleague from the Coromandel is not a minimum and maximum of a thousand dollars but a regime that is graduated up to a thousand dollars, depending on the judgments that we would hope would sit in the city councils. It\u2019s not that we have come up with this change out of thin air and suggested that, actually, let\u2019s push this on to a reluctant community; let\u2019s push this on to a reluctant council. This is not a minimum thousand dollars; this is giving them the opportunity to graduate up to that if the severity of the litter meets that fee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWhen you look at the various pictures\u2014and I\u2019m sure, even though I can\u2019t draw you into the debate, Mr Speaker, you\u2019ll be delighted that I\u2019m the first speaker without a picture\u2014that have been provided thus far, you can see the need for a graduated response, because one of those pictures that Deborah Russell showed was litter of a smaller amount. One of the pictures seemed to be slightly more confronting, and, of course, Mr Simpson takes the cake in terms of an example of littering that was at the defecation end of the scale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThe whole point here is that we\u2019re providing the opportunity for our territorial authorities to be able to apply a regime, which none of us have said that we have a major problem with, that has the ability to scale up to a thousand-dollar fine. Every one of us knows that this stuff is challenging\u2014well, I would hope so. We haven\u2019t yet heard from New Zealand First; I\u2019m very much looking forward to their contribution on litter. That will be very insightful\u2014an autobiography, perhaps. And I\u2019m particularly looking forward to the Green Party. It makes me think, on the basis that we have a sense here that their contribution may well be one of rejecting this small but meaningful change\u2014it makes me reflect on that little saying that on small hinges, large doors swing, because this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b245b5efbe084fbabf1015c489b27794\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: Oh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9290adaff5e4ba9a53a0f45242569c4\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, quite good, isn\u2019t it, Darroch Ball? Let me just repeat that for you: on small hinges, large doors swing. At one breath, people will say, \u201COh, look, the National Party\u201D\u2014or Scott Simpson, a fine member for Coromandel, reflecting his community\u2019s concerns. Maximum litter up to $400\u2014lifting that to up to a thousand dollars. Look, it\u2019s not a massive change in the context of the environmental issues that we reflect on in this House, but it is a symbol of intent. It is a symbol of saying, well, actually, we hear the community concern and we\u2019re going to do something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EBut I suspect very shortly we\u2019re going to hear, as we\u2019ve just heard from the Labour Party\u2014that when push comes to shove, they\u2019re just all rhetoric; they won\u2019t actually do anything. We\u2019re going to hear very similar from the Green Party, where they will talk about the importance of dealing and prioritising our environment. They will talk, no doubt, about the challenges that our urban environment but also rural\u2014but particularly the built environment\u2014has with respect to litter pressure. When there is an opportunity right now, right here today, to make a statement, to make a small step in the right direction that is aligned with their philosophy, they will say no, largely out of spite, because they cannot be seen to be supporting Scott Simpson from Coromandel, even if it\u2019s the right thing to do, even if it is a small step in the right direction, because, actually, you know, we would rather be ideological on a position like this as opposed to practical. Here is an opportunity to make a difference\u2014a small difference, but a difference none the less\u2014and they will turn down the opportunity, because it\u2019s much better to get very, very high-ambition speeches, but when the opportunity is put in front of them to actually make a difference right here, they will turn the opportunity down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWhat a shame that is, because, as we have seen, this is supported by our territorial authorities, local government. They came to the Environment Committee and said, \u201CActually, on balance, this is a good step forward.\u201D We acknowledge that they didn\u2019t say, \u201CLook, there are no issues around managing litter.\u201D They said they were supportive and they want it to happen. The Labour Party might know somebody by the name of Phil Goff. He is very supportive\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221273ec981ab8451aa47ba2fc22d1aff1\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s independent, apparently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f86f56d97fdb4d2589d52d3dba2388f1\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, apparently he is independent\u2014yes. So that mayor has signalled that he is quite comfortable with this direction and supports it; four other councils do. So I just ask the members opposite to reflect on how small-minded they are with respect to this response. The argument that we just heard, that, actually, you know, from a sort of academic perspective, this isn\u2019t parity, I have debunked. It is up to a thousand; it\u2019s not a minimum of a thousand. This is a small signal to assist in changing the behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EI just want to reinforce how disappointed my community will be on this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b656b547be44b8b82896932dce90ad5\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: And mine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df649f06c89f4469bc28f1efff3fa1bc\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER\u003C/span\u003E: And yours, yes. I\u2019ve mentioned yours a couple of times; it\u2019s time to talk about mine. In Papamoa\u2014fantastic part of the community; you should all come. I know, Kiri, you occasionally drive through on your way through to the East Coast. But Papamoa\u2014fantastic community, beautiful beaches\u2014[Bell rung] That felt like it had just a little half a second too long, that bell. Didn\u2019t you feel that, listening? But anyway, when we walk along Papamoa Beach\u2014and I have been with my community for litter clean-up sessions. We have been there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280aa0b96eec84963bc650dfb41f69ed5\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, god.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ddbcba79f624184b9e590e3fbb775c5\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not, you know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a146fa89a594a96848640cc5f709b2e\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Hard-working local member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250f7e229682b49be92ca265f4b16fa18\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER\u003C/span\u003E: I was, yes, and I\u2019ve got the pictures to prove it. We did a whole morning cleaning up, I took two out of my three children\u2014and you know how that works. Well, it did spread the load, to be fair. But what the three of us decided\u2014my two children and myself\u2014when we finished the morning\u2019s work cleaning up the litter was: why do people do this? There\u2019s got to be a way of making people who do this pay. In fact, my youngest daughter said to me \u201CWhy is it that all this stuff\u2019s there?\u201D as we walked through the dunes and cleaned up Papamoa on behalf of the wider community\u2014and there\u2019s a huge community effort; it wasn\u2019t just the Muller family doing this. When your young children turn to you and say, \u201CWhy do people do this, Dad? Why isn\u2019t there greater penalty? What is the impact, Dad, if people drop this here?\u201D I said that, clearly, the people who do this don\u2019t value their surrounding environment like we do and so many other people do, and the families of Papamoa do. But I also believe, as part of that answer, we should say that we had the opportunity to make it slightly more painful for those who do this bad stuff in our community to actually pay the price. I think\u2014in fact, I know\u2014that the people of Papamoa Beach who are listening to this will be very disappointed in the New Zealand First, Labour, and Greens failure to actually do something in the space of environment this afternoon. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2b31b9608534628817b994ca08de8da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2b31b9608534628817b994ca08de8da\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call Clare Curran, I will remind Mr Muller that when he refers to members from the other side, he doesn\u2019t just use their first names. That was why he got a slightly longer bell immediately after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u00226dbb9ee813cb47c8b16a73d57a14c770\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dbb9ee813cb47c8b16a73d57a14c770\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u201CActions speak louder than words\u201D and \u201Ccommitment to the environment\u201D\u2014those were two phrases I heard from over there. Wasn\u2019t that the party that put up big billboards over the summer period about wanting more massive highways, putting more trucks and cars on the road, and, basically, running down KiwiRail and converting their locomotives to diesel? Is that \u201Cactions speak louder than words\u201D and \u201Ccommitment to the environment\u201D? I could go on for 10 minutes about that, but I won\u2019t because I actually want to say some positive things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I wondered whether Mr Muller has thought about is actually asking his local council\u2014and Mr Simpson, as well\u2014as to whether they\u2019ve thought about putting out more bins in their community, as being a useful way of encouraging behaviour change and education, and that that is actually the direction that we as a nation are being encouraged to go in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis is a rather small, strange bill, I describe it as. I didn\u2019t sit on the Environment Committee for the whole of it, but I came in at the end and I listened to some of the submissions, I looked at what the departmental report had to say, and I know it was taken seriously. I hope the member acknowledges that the bill was taken seriously, and there were some serious submissions to it, but, ultimately, increasing fines is not necessarily going to change behaviour\u2014it will not stop littering. We were advised against a thousand-dollar fine because it\u2019s disproportionate to the infringement offence, and I\u2019ll talk more about that in a minute. We were\u2014because, you know, we\u2019re reasonable on this side of the House and we\u2019re a very reasonable Government that listens\u2014prepared to consider a $500 fine, which was considered to be in line with inflation and official advice, but that was unacceptable to the member sitting over there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EMost importantly\u2014and this is where we go back to the actions speak louder than words and commitment to the environment\u2014is that this Government has a plan and is enacting its plan and is actually doing a lot more about the bigger picture, whereas for that side of the House, apparently raising the fine to $1,000 is going to somehow change the world and solve the problems of our environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI would like to mention, actually, some items in the Government\u2019s plan, and I want to refer to the Minister Eugenie Sage, actually\u2014associate environment Minister\u2014and her waste minimisation work programme, which has been outlined and which goes much, much wider to this. Before I do that, I just want to mention a couple of statistics which are useful to know, and that is that in New Zealand, 84 percent of waste that could become litter is actually disposed of in the correct way. So it\u2019s useful to inject facts into the debate. Of course, we can do better, and this is where the waste minimisation plan is geared to. It\u2019s actually looking at how it can do that in a meaningful way and affect the biggest impact, rather than raising the fine to $1,000 when there aren\u2019t enough enforcers, which the member Deborah Russell referred to in her speech. So it\u2019s actually making a meaningful change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got a 16 percent litter rate, so what the Government is looking at doing is expanding the waste disposal levy. New Zealand has currently got 420 known landfills. The levy only applies to 11 percent of them, so there\u2019s a lot of work to be done there. We are undertaking a consultation with the public about the levy expansion. I\u2019m not sure whether the Opposition is actually aware of this work and have actually looked into it, but looking at the levy expansion and the potential increases next year, the levy currently generates around $30 million annually. Half of that goes to councils to help them fund their waste minimisation activities, and the balance goes into the Waste Minimisation Fund and its grants scheme, which is about helping progressive businesses and community organisations to reduce waste. If we actually expand that away from the 11 percent, isn\u2019t that going to make a big difference? Yes, it\u2019s going to make a big difference. Is raising an infringement fee to $1,000 going to make a big difference when you haven\u2019t got the enforcers, when it doesn\u2019t fit into a bigger picture? No, it\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe second and long-overdue task is to improve dramatically the data and information available on waste. We lack a full national picture of what\u2019s going into landfills. Now, why is that? It\u2019s because the previous Government did nothing about that. We don\u2019t know. So where was your commitment to the environment? And your actions speak louder than words. That\u2019s what I would like to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI also want to refer to, and I know that Deborah Russell referred to, Graeme Edgeler\u2019s submission. I actually want to elaborate on what she said, because while I describe him as being the prince of pedantry\u2014and I make no apology about that, Graeme\u2014he made a very good submission, and he makes very good points, and I want to let you know what those points were in case the member Scott Simpson didn\u2019t pay attention when he was giving his submission. He says that \u201CLittering is both a criminal offence, punishable by a fine, and an infringement offence, punishable by the imposition of an infringement fee.\u201D That dual approach is relatively common with a range of regulatory offences, and more serious breaches can be prosecuted in the courts as criminal offences\u2014resulting in a conviction, potentially, and a criminal record\u2014while less serious breaches can be dealt with using infringement fees, which are like parking tickets or speeding tickets and don\u2019t result in criminal records.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis bill proposes amending the level of the infringement\u2014the lower level. So it\u2019s recognised as dealing with low-level littering and not with more serious dumping. More serious littering would be prosecuted rather than dealt with by the infringement notice. So if there are concerns about dumping and more serious examples of littering, then amendments to the maximum fine for littering, which is, you know, around $20,000, $30,000 for dangerous refuse\u2014then don\u2019t change the infringement fee; that would be more appropriate. There are other pieces of legislation that that gets dealt with under.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EHe makes the point that littering is bad, but a possible $1,000 infringement fee is out of all proportion with the offence, especially when we recall we are concerned with the type of low-level littering commonly subject to infringement fees. It\u2019s useful to compare to other infringement offences such as speeding, where the fee is set at $630. I just got a speeding ticket\u2014it was a bit less than that, so clearly I wasn\u2019t going that fast. But the point he is making is that it\u2019s disproportionate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIs the member clearly saying to the House that he believes that a disproportionate fee of $1,000, in a regime where it\u2019s clearly being said to us by councils that it\u2019s a complex issue, that they find it hard to actually enforce the infringement side of it, is actually going to make a difference? Isn\u2019t it more important to be looking at a bigger picture of the whole of the waste minimisation and making your interventions where it\u2019s actually going to matter, working with councils to look at how they can encourage behaviour change, and ensuring that you are taking a holistic approach to this? Actions do speak louder than words. A commitment to the environment is important, and it\u2019s this side of the House that\u2019s focused on that, rather than the petty approach being taken by the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022c76aebfab6464526a2a4e17ac8e11a6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c76aebfab6464526a2a4e17ac8e11a6e\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s not often that two speakers from the same party get to follow each other on speaking on such an important bill, and so I would like to take the opportunity, which I haven\u2019t had up until this point, and say that I agree wholeheartedly with the previous speaker, the Hon Clare Curran. That\u2019s not something I\u2019ve been able to say, and it\u2019s not something that I can say tonight when I think about the contributions\u2014the two contributions\u2014thus far, as sincere as I\u2019m sure they were, on this, the Litter (Increased Infringement Fee) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe issue is the principle that raising a fine will stop the behaviour you wish to halt. It\u2019s not going to work. In all the examples we\u2019ve heard tonight of littering in the Coromandel and littering in Papamoa and, dear I say, even littering in the great electorate of New Lynn\u2014how many of those perpetrators were seen and fined? None. So there is no evidence to suggest that the current fine system works, and there\u2019s no evidence to suggest that increasing it to some arbitrary figure of $1,000 is going to work as well. That\u2019s, essentially, what this bill, as proposed by the Hon Scott Simpson, suggests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EUs on this House\u2014we oppose this bill because we believe it is unnecessary. It\u2019s not going to be effective, and it\u2019s not actually going to go towards anywhere which we all want to see\u2014we all want to see less littering. If you were to look at the examples that were raised by Dr Deborah Russell in speeding and drink driving, they were used because, often, if you commit those two acts, then you will end up with a fine less than what\u2019s being proposed in this bill. Now, dear I say that the reason us in this House do not drink drive and most people in this country do not drink drive has got nothing to do with the fine, but it\u2019s got everything to do with the potential shame that would be attached to that, the loss of wages that could be attached to losing your licence, or a much more serious nature of actually causing a serious harm to somebody else or your own. It\u2019s got nothing to do with the fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI would argue that it is much more effective, if we want to stop littering, to actually look at changing the culture around littering. Why do people litter? Trying to understand this\u2014and there\u2019s a list of Government initiatives that are going around on this that I am looking forward to outlining in the remainder of my speech. I went to Taiwan last year\u2014it was a marvellous trip to a marvellous place\u2014and the one thing I noticed was that there were no rubbish bins. None. I couldn\u2019t find any. There was someone on the delegation that enjoys the odd cigarette, and that person couldn\u2019t find anywhere to put their cigarette butt. So what that shows is that there is a culture over there that you simply do not litter. You take your rubbish with you and you dispose of it at home. Nowhere to be seen was there a rubbish bin. Now, the same cannot be said in this country. In fact\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220058eecc261e43609a92b28e92310276\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The time has come to leave\u2014it\u2019s kai time. It\u2019s time to leave the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227500d18f422946ab8e86ab4959030863\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: The issue, of course, is when you get on a roll and you start a speech and it stops for the dinner break, you lose your momentum\u2014and, of course, you might also have a different audience. We all know that there are more people that watch Parliament TV after dinner than before, so I thought perhaps a little recap of what I said earlier might be the way to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afd2fb67c5464423bd90f04b1be94524\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: There are Standing Orders, Mr McAnulty, around repetition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208888a7517914f79b7ddd84db0a86ead\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! Well, it was worth a crack. But, essentially, the arguments were that this is a bad idea and we won\u2019t be supporting it. The reasons behind that are quite clear, because arbitrarily lifting a fine from $400 to $1,000 is going to do nothing, particularly when at the moment the system of imposing those fines hardly really exists. As my colleague, Dr Deborah Russell, mentioned in her contribution, in order for someone to be fined for littering they, essentially, need to be witnessed in the act. They can go back if they can prove that it was someone that was littering\u2014so perhaps they may have thrown in a power bill amongst the bag of rubbish or something like that. But, essentially, the Litter Act 1979, which the Litter (Increased Infringement Fee) Amendment Bill seeks to amend, is really targeting those small-scale litterers: your cigarette butts, your lolly wrappers, and your McDonalds\u2019 packages etc. And so what we are arguing on the side of the House is that we are certainly not suggesting that the intention behind this bill was not sincere\u2014I\u2019m sure it was. But we view this as a rather pointless change, because, ultimately, if we are going to reach the objective that we all want to see where less people litter\u2014ideally, no people littering\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc6b378fad304ed89443d90d610a7c17\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Fewer people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ea643625cf84256aa9bb2627bec37cf\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Fewer. Fewer. I\u2019d like to acknowledge my colleague, the Hon Ruth Dyson. Never say \u201Cless\u201D in front of Ruth Dyson when you mean \u201Cfewer\u201D because she will point it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI was thinking about my recent trip to Taiwan, and I just started talking about that before the dinner break. What struck me in Taiwan was that this is an island with 23-odd million people, and I can honestly tell you the whole time that I was there I didn\u2019t see one single piece of rubbish. It\u2019s quite remarkable for a city so condensed that they have that many people in such a relatively small area and I didn\u2019t see one single piece of rubbish, and just as interesting is that I also didn\u2019t see a single rubbish bin. So I started talking about that before the dinner break, and I actually thought to myself, while I was having a feed, \u201CI wonder why that was? Maybe it\u2019s because they\u2019ve got a really strong fine system in place. Maybe the Hon Scott Simpson was on to something.\u201D I\u2019ve got seven minutes of my speech left; it\u2019s not too late to correct the record. If I was wrong, I wouldn\u2019t be too ashamed to say so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt turns out that they do not. The fine in Taiwan for littering is the equivalent of NZ$40\u2014$40. But what they\u2019ve done is they\u2019ve created this culture where people just do not litter. Taiwan\u2014I\u2019ve since found out, in the last hour and a half\u2014was colloquially known as \u201CGarbage Island\u201D. It\u2019s quite incredible\u2014\u201CGarbage Island\u201D. And yet what they\u2019ve done is they\u2019ve imposed a system, which this Government is arguing would be a much better approach than the one that\u2019s suggested in this bill, where they make it easy for people to recycle and they make it easy for people to dispose of their rubbish, and they\u2019ve created this culture. If we were to compare that to what\u2019s proposed here of simply suggesting that increasing the fine from $400 to $1,000 is going to be effective in stopping people from littering, then I believe that is a mistaken concept.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EYou couldn\u2019t compare that to Singapore. I read a news report where one resident got fined NZ$21,500 for throwing a cigarette butt out the bus window. We probably wouldn\u2019t litter if the fine was $21,500, but of course we\u2019d still have to be found out. We\u2019d still have to be found out, wouldn\u2019t we? I suppose that\u2019s the point. In Singapore they have this fine system, but they also have the people there to witness the act and impose the fine. And this argument that we can just chuck an arbitrary figure out and hope that it\u2019s going to be successful, this side of the House clearly argues that it is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI note that there are some figures here that the vast majority of people in this country do not litter. We all know that. It\u2019s around at 84 percent. And I think it\u2019s actually because even though we do have a fine system in this country\u2014I think people here in this House if they saw someone littering in front of them, they\u2019d probably say, \u201CExcuse me, would you mind picking that up?\u201D, or words to that effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235361aafb4684f63bdffe88dea910c8b\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c3784c202104474814a57979b202675\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, because we do take pride in this country\u2014not everybody, but most of us do. I guess if you consider the arguments that were given by some of the submitters, and also, most certainly, the feedback that was given by the department when the Environment Committee were considering this, they made it very clear indeed that they did not recommend increasing the fine to up to $1,000\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022688ef4e188724607a7e5f0c766eb1ecb\u0022\u003EPriyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: Killing an ant with a sledgehammer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222882ebf489ed411fbdcdb63eae35b950\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Priyanca Radhakrishnan. I appreciate that. \u201CKilling an ant with a sledgehammer,\u201D she says\u2014an utterly pointless exercise. On that I do agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo if we were to consider what the Ministry for the Environment advised the select committee, they said that there are no bigger issues with enforcement that $1,000 is not going to be a deterrent, because, ultimately, that\u2019s what a fine system is for: it\u2019s to stop and deter a particular behaviour, and $1,000, for those in this country that do litter, is not going to stop them littering. What we would argue on this side of the House that is going to be much more effective is the initiatives that the Government is investing in in terms of littering projects. Non-regulatory tools to reduce litter\u2014I know that there\u2019s a lot of pride in the keep New Zealand green and Keep New Zealand Beautiful campaign. I remember that from when I was much younger, as a child.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e6066d486364d12b4448f9b8d798bdb\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022182e0edcc7ac466c8e886b9ca1998519\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CLast week\u201D has been the quip from my left, which isn\u2019t bad, because I am the youngest person in the Labour Party caucus, so I take some pride in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe fact is that if we just think back to 10 years ago and the amount that we all recycled\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00228b0964f954a94d6596bf2a9145b57664\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b0964f954a94d6596bf2a9145b57664\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the member. I call Erica Stanford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022beeaaf5098eb4560aeb53e9a27746b6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022beeaaf5098eb4560aeb53e9a27746b6c\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. I\u2019m very happy to make a contribution to my colleague, Scott Simpson\u2019s, member\u2019s bill, the Litter (Increased Infringement Fee) Amendment Bill. Can I be the first right here tonight in this House to nominate Clare Curran for mayor of Auckland. John Tamihere\u2014I thought he was a nice bloke, but we need a heavy hitter. We need someone with ideas, someone with vision, someone who can think outside the square. When Clare Curran got up tonight earlier and said, \u201CHave the council thought about putting out more litter bins?\u201D, I just thought, \u201COn your bike, Tamihere. This woman\u2019s got answers.\u201D I thought you were on to something. Then she followed that up with \u201CMaybe we just need some more enforcement officers.\u201D\u2014another gem. There will be mayors and councillors around the country, perhaps from Waip\u0101, from Hamilton, from Ashburton, or from Auckland, who came to submit on this bill, who\u2019ll be smacking their heads thinking, \u201CWhy on Earth didn\u2019t we think of that? This woman is a genius.\u201D Despite what Kieran McAnulty just got up and said about his trip to Taiwan, where we don\u2019t need any rubbish bins at all\u2014in fact, it\u2019s quite the opposite. Those two really should get together and have a wee chat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EAnd then her other gem: the Waste Minimisation Fund, which she lauded as a wonderful scheme, shortly after, by the way, she attacked us for not being good environmentalists, forgetting that that was actually something that the National Government set up. But more importantly her great idea is to tax those people more, who do the right thing in disposing of their rubbish, and at the same time arguing against a bill that wants to properly punish those people who literally dump their rubbish\u2014in fact, literally dump on the beaches, as Scott Simpson pointed out earlier tonight\u2014tax good behaviour more, and fine bad behaviour less. I can see why they made her a Minister\u2014all the best ideas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EShe then went on to spend a large proportion of her speech on who has the best commitment to the environment, as if this was some argument for voting down a bill that would increase fines for littering. \u201CWe are doing some other stuff in conservation.\u201D\u2014she said\u2014\u201CThis Government has a plan. We\u2019ve got all the big ideas. It\u2019s about the big picture stuff.\u201D And yet how are those cameras on fishing boats coming along? How are those national parks coming along? How are those marine reserves coming along? How about the 15 percent decrease in the environment budget and doing nothing for fresh water\u2014how about those? That\u2019s all big-picture stuff. They can\u2019t even bring themselves to vote for a little bill that does a lot. What they fail to understand is that this bill is a small part of a wider plan. We\u2019re not saying it is the magic bullet. Some academic might think that $1,000 is out of proportion, but it is not the minimum. It\u2019s a sliding scale. Councils around the country want this increase. They came to the select committee and they put in written submissions because they want this increase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ENow, Hamilton City Council, in their submission, is a really good example of this. The Hamilton City Council employs 19 staff who have duties for litter control. They developed a litter enforcement management policy, which outlines the process for these infringements as well as the council\u2019s resolution as to how they should be applied. Now, like most other councils, they have a stepped, sliding scale for infringements, starting at $100 for something like a cigarette butt or a takeaway container or a drink container\u2014anything under a litre\u2014then 200 bucks for 1 to 20 litres of rubbish like a disposable nappy or a bag of household rubbish, or something like what Deborah Russell held up earlier; $300 for something like a sofa; and $400 for dangerous litter of any quality in any place. The Hamilton City Council have a real and increasing problem. They told us a story of the 3 tonnes of rubbish they pulled out of an open drain recently. It cost them $1,200 just to dispose of it, let alone all the other costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe Hamilton City Council put to our select committee that if we were to increase the fine to $1,000, like they want, they would be able to develop a new sliding scale that better reflects the severity of the littering activity. We are not, on this side of the House, arguing that if you flick a cigarette butt out of your car window, you get a $1,000 fine\u2014like it sounds like they believe. It is a sliding scale, like most councils have in place. Of course, this council still have the ability to prosecute for really bad behaviour, but this allows them a better bridge in between the infringement system and a prosecution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe Thames-Coromandel District Council also wrote a submission in support of the bill, noting that $400 does not reasonably cover the costs of enforcement and removal. They were very supportive of the fine. As I say, it gives them more of a bridge between prosecution and infringement. We know of\u2014and we heard earlier from Scott Simpson\u2014the terrible problem that we have on the beautiful Coromandel Peninsula that\u2019s often highlighted by the hard-working local MP, Mr Scott Simpson. The Waip\u0101 District Council wrote a submission, as well, also\u2014again\u2014in support of having an increased fine to $1,000 and they were calling for the further ability of councils to add rubbish removal fines on top of the fine without having to go to court. So they actually want more, because it costs them so much money to remove the rubbish and for the enforcement officer\u2019s time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe Ashburton District Council wrote to our select committee in support of the bill. These are the people who work under the Act and they enforce the Act. Again, they supported the bill. They supported having a sliding scale infringement structure to reflect the amount and quality of the litter dump, similar to that of the Hamilton City Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe last council I want to mention in this contribution is our largest city council\u2014the Auckland Council\u2014who, in the year 2017-18, investigated 1,644 complaints of littering and illegal dumping of rubbish. Again, it is an increasing problem. The Auckland Council submission was interesting to me and I think we should take note of it, because while they agreed that they wanted to be able to use an increase in a fine, they also gave us some other ideas, and while they were out of the scope of the bill, I think we should take heed. They did talk about the difficulty of the evidence being able to be gathered, and they asked us to consider in the future using a different level of evidence required for some kinds of dumping like a cigarette butt or a Coke can, compared to, say, a trailer-load of commercial waste. That was an idea they had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThey also put to us that maybe\u2014at the moment, it\u2019s very difficult for them, even if they have a registration plate that\u2019s been called in. If someone chucks something out of a car window, it is difficult for them to be able to figure out who was driving the car and who actually did it, and they argued that we should perhaps in the future consider just fining the owner of the vehicle, regardless, to try and change behaviour. They put some good ideas to us, and we will take those into consideration. But, overall, all of these councils agreed that an infringement system with a higher infringement at the top end was the best way to go, and these are the guys on the ground. These are the people who are enforcing the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWhen I was a kid growing up, we had a really bad litter problem. I remember it, driving along the roads, and it was similar to now, where you see rubbish along the side of the road. We had a hugely successful behaviour change campaign that many of us have fond memories of. It\u2019s worth noting at this point that this is in line with, in 2017, the National Government announcing $300 million to stop littering\u2014the \u201CDo the right thing\u201D initiative, which was aimed at educating people. The then Minister Mr Nick Smith announced it at our Bluegreens forum. The Auckland Council also pointed out that a holistic approach to education was going to be part of the solution as well, along with an increased fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe argument put up by those on the other side of the House is that it\u2019s just all out of proportion. I would argue that $1,000 for serious, large, and/or dangerous littering that doesn\u2019t quite meet the prosecution level, on a sliding scale, is absolutely in line with the public\u2019s expectation. Maybe not some academic, but the country has had enough of people treating our countryside like a dump. Whether it\u2019s Deborah Russell\u2019s fishy neighbours or the people that Scott Simpson has had photographed on our beaches, we have had it, and $1,000 for serious offending is a better bridge of that gap between a low fine and a prosecution. It is a small but vital part of the puzzle that every council who came to us and that we have spoken to wants, and for Clare Curran to call this bill petty, it shows how horribly out of touch this Government are with public sentiment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe have had it with roadside littering. We have had it with litter in our waterways\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee966ba481314b40949fda8e05c621ba\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t you do something about it, then? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b8f2d36a7d428fbaa6653465fa6011\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that we have to go and clean up. We are\u2014oh, you. \u201CWhy don\u2019t you do something about it?\u201D, says Minister Sage. Well, we are waiting on this side of the House for any legislation to do with litter. Have we had anything? Nothing at all. That Minister should concentrate on perhaps bringing something to the House, along with something to do with the Kermadec marine sanctuary or maybe cameras on fishing boats. No\u2014big silence from that side of the room, because they are doing nothing. This greenest Government ever are a horrible failure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a little bill that has a big heart and it will make a big difference that the councils want. This petty Government\u2014this greenest Government ever\u2014cannot bring themselves to vote for it for purely idealistic reasons, and that sucks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00228ec2b92257704c968df5126bf8363887\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ec2b92257704c968df5126bf8363887\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the member to take the next call, I just want to remind members that they are to use the correct titles when they are referring to members. There were two members referred to in that last speech which have an honourable title before their name, and I know that the Speaker earlier today was commenting on that point. So I just want to remind people of respectful titles, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022e906e78ea3a749e1b761a7cdb5aee491\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e906e78ea3a749e1b761a7cdb5aee491\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I nominate Erica Stanford for Mayor of Auckland. She could stand on an \u201CIncreasing fines\u201D platform, or something like \u201CI\u2019ll do a fine job.\u201D You do need to work on your impersonation skills\u2014she needs to work on her impersonation skills\u2014but that\u2019s just a thought to put out there. I know the right are looking for a candidate. I know there are some issues there, and I appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s an honour to talk about this bill. I\u2019d like to begin by acknowledging Dr Deborah Russell, the chair of the Environment Committee. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the members on the committee, who have shepherded this bill to this point. I\u2019d like to acknowledge all of those who submitted on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders care about litter\u2014they care a lot about litter. As a Government, we get a lot of letters coming in saying \u201CWe\u2019re concerned about litter.\u201D, so there\u2019s certainly agreement right across the board. Ninety-three percent of New Zealanders believe it\u2019s important not to litter, and 99 percent\u2014so, almost all New Zealanders\u2014believe it\u2019s very important for New Zealand to maintain its clean, green image. So we\u2019ve got agreement there. The question is, how do we reduce the littering? That\u2019s the key point tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThe Opposition are playing politics. I\u2019ll just put it out there, because we haven\u2019t heard that tonight, but I believe that\u2019s what it is. The Opposition have this view, a punitive view, that if we increase fines, everything will be all right\u2014lock \u2019em up, throw away the key, increase the fines. I don\u2019t believe this is about litter; this is about politics. The right are reaching out for voters around punitive measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EIt is quite clear that New Zealanders care about litter. And there is an issue there. Habits are not always good. We often see this after sports events. I was recently at the cricket at Seddon Park and after the game, the bank was full of litter. We see this often.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d65445415924c678c72b13f593a57eb\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, so fine them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022386386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0d7930236ad4bd4930bc1b7a8ba91f8\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: We could fine them $1,000 for each cup, maybe, and they could bring in\u2014how much would that bring in? A lot. We had a concert here recently, Eminem, which I may or may not have attended\u201450,000 plastic cups after the event. So yes, there is an issue. If we had one shot, one opportunity to seize everything the Hon Scott Simpson wanted, would we capture it or would we let it slip? The way we capture it and the key point I\u2019d like to focus on tonight is pride in our communities\u2014a sense of pride that we have as New Zealanders. If you have pride in your country and you have a sense of community, you\u2019ll be a lot less likely to litter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022386386\u0022\u003EAs humans, we share this planet, and this is the only planet we got, so we need to work together. We need to understand how we look after this planet. The key thing is\u2014[Interruption]\u2014around this issue\u2014I\u2019m pleased the Opposition are awake. The key point here is community. If we look back into the early-1900s, mid-1900s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fc7aedd4572407fb4b28c2aed94dd6e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Let\u2019s settle, members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c8a3ba424474bebb6a77a3186478e15\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: If we go back a few years, as a society we relied on community for our very survival. We think of a time before refrigeration, when you had farms and you couldn\u2019t freeze an animal. An animal would get killed and it would get shared out among people. Haymaking time\u2014we\u2019d work together. We literally relied on community for our survival. In today\u2019s society, with the rise of technology, we can survive on our own without community, but we can\u2019t thrive without community, and the sense of community is the key. It\u2019s the sense of connection, knowing our neighbours, working together, and that is the key\u2014not increasing fines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThere were 13 submissions on this bill, and I\u2019d just like to touch on a couple of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0d3265634b34932924c70bfde9d8e33\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Hamilton council wants it. You should vote for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221976545876374cb5b5dbd15fc280eb7e\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: We might get to that one, but I\u2019ll start on Kay Jones. So Kay Jones, she said, \u201CWhile I deplore litter in our streets, I am a realist. Increasing the fine for people littering does nothing to deter them from casually dropping rubbish.\u201D Kay goes on, \u201CThis Bill does not provide any means for monitoring or enforcing the punishment.\u201D That\u2019s a key point, and we\u2019ve heard that from a number of speakers tonight. There\u2019s no point increasing fines if you can\u2019t enforce them. The reality is that if I went out on to the street and asked people \u201CWhat\u2019s the current fine for littering?\u201D, most people would not know. So if it increased from $400 to $1,000, the people wouldn\u2019t even know anyway. It would not make a difference\u2014they would not make a difference. It\u2019s about people taking a sense of pride in their community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EAnother submission, from Graeme Edgeler, and Graeme talks a little bit here about the dumping of rubbish. This is a key point that I haven\u2019t heard spoken about in this debate, and I would like to touch on that. In most of our cities\u2014and I\u2019m sure across the countryside at times, but certainly in our urban areas\u2014we often have large amounts of rubbish dumped. There was an example last year over the road from our house. There was a couch; there was\u2014I don\u2019t know. There was a massive pile. There was a trailer load of rubbish, basically\u2014basically just dumped. So we do have to look at why people are dumping, and it is important that we look at things like the cost of going to the dump. It is important that we incentivise people in the right way. You know, we don\u2019t always have to use the stick; sometimes the carrot works as well\u2014or a lolly, Mr McAnulty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u201CIf there are concerns with dumping\u201D\u2014this is what the submitter said\u2014\u201Cor other serious examples of littering, then amendments to the maximum fine for littering (currently $20,000, or $30,000 for dangerous refuse) and not changes to the infringement fee would be more appropriate. Of course, particularly serious dumping abuses are likely dealt with under other legislation: either as criminal nuisances under the Crimes Act, or under the Resource Management Act, and not the Litter Act at all.\u201D But this is an important point, this aspect around dumping\u2014but that point is covered. The current legislation allows for that. But in terms of raising the cost of dropping a piece of litter from $400 to a $1,000, we obviously don\u2019t support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EAnother key point is around education, and as a former school teacher, I\u2019ve spent a number of years encouraging students to pick up their litter. If you can create a culture in the young people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cbc69a5f5054e2a9a15708836944b2a\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Did you fine them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022676a8e26a25b45228ae7c6a673b446c6\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014then that\u2019s how you change. Oh, no, I didn\u2019t think of fining them $1,000. Maybe I should have. It\u2019s about a culture, and the education point\u2014I haven\u2019t heard this spoken in this debate, but it is a very important point here, because if you want to change a society, you start with the young people. You start as young as you possibly can. I believe that good work is being made in this area. Social change always starts with the youth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EAs a great man once said, \u201CPeople litter because they don\u2019t value their environment.\u201D That was spoken by Todd Muller earlier in this debate. He said people litter because they don\u2019t value their environment, and I agree with that\u2014absolutely agree. A wonderful speech, he gave tonight. The key point here is about valuing the environment. I\u2019ve spoken about community, I\u2019ve spoken about the importance of taking a sense of pride in your community, I\u2019ve talked about building community, I\u2019ve talked about valuing community, and I\u2019ve spoken about education. The Government are doing a lot of a lot of things in this area. I\u2019d just like to touch on a couple of them. There are four projects funded under the Waste Minimisation Fund that the Government are funding. So the first one is Keep New Zealand Beautiful, and it has been mentioned before by my colleague Kieran McAnulty. This has a very strong branding, and it is making a difference. The \u201CDo the right thing\u201D project is the key there. There\u2019s is another one, the Packaging Forum: \u201CLitter less, recycle more\u201D. We often hear about reduce, reuse, recycle\u2014the three Rs. But there\u2019s another R that we don\u2019t hear about much: refuse. And that should come first. Refuse, reduce, reuse, recycle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc18de3891064219bd64b852416fb31d\u0022\u003EPriyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: Refuse or refuse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c6b423e568d4b7bb84cd100bfaf5dea\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: Refuse rather than refuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ce747c535ad4c03be54e0c9a7d09d68\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Refuse refuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d64675bb926e411cbcb6fdfd20efc21d\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there we go. We\u2019ve got the slogans coming thick and fast for those members at home there. But we can all do better around refusing, particularly around plastic, and there\u2019s lots of work being done on plastic\u2014lots of work being done on bioplastics. In fact, the members might be interested in knowing that 40 percent of a car can be made with bioplastic now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeed2d58b8c64f94b0b1a5e185c3a2d3\u0022\u003EPriyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: How many percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281ab290d3cb74f41afbf4207bb353b69\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: Forty percent\u2014isn\u2019t that incredible? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4838582f92c4a4cb4d9517e3a77e534\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Get out of here!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e41349c67d5d4c9e9eab2f4529211e79\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: I know. So there\u2019s a lot of work being done around plastic. As a Government, we\u2019ve banned single-use plastic bags. The previous Government knew about this issue and they wouldn\u2019t act. We\u2019ve just done it. We\u2019ve banned it, and that\u2019s been very well received, particularly among young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ESo as my time is coming to an end, I\u2019d just like to reiterate that raising the fine to $1,000 will make no difference, but community and education is the key. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00226422f5d8c9f044babcc10782f3f35dff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226422f5d8c9f044babcc10782f3f35dff\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Thank you. I totally endorse the sentiments of the previous speaker, Jamie Strange, in terms of the themes that he emphasised of community culture, education, and valuing the environment, and I\u2019m very pleased to take a call for the Green Party on the Litter (Increased Infringement Fee) Amendment Bill. This whole issue is about culture, as the previous speaker noted, and when Keep New Zealand Beautiful did some research earlier, or last year, they noted that New Zealanders are not frequent litterers and we have a culture here of not littering. People endorse the fact and don\u2019t like it when people litter, and others have quoted those statistics of 93 and 98 percent of people not wanting littering to occur and recognising the importance of clean, green New Zealand. So this bill from the Hon Scott Simpson, inherited from Jono Naylor\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac627cb88b7a4b72a205296d2e703c11\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I apologise to the member. Could I just call the folk who were having the conversation across the Chamber to order, please. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229136c3d2d2b94a659db3c02f74ff3aa9\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. So this bill is very narrow. It doesn\u2019t deal with the real issues around littering. It was taken up by the Hon Scott Simpson when his Government had nine years to deal with the Litter Act and to deal with the wider issues around the Litter Act that could have really taken action to help here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EInstead, it is just focusing on increasing the maximum fee for an infringement notice from $400 to $1,000. It was the clear advice from both the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry for the Environment that a simple increase in that maximum fee was not going to tackle the issue. It was also completely out of scale with other levels of fee for other infringement offences. It\u2019s two to three times the size of infringement notice offences under the Resource Management Act. It\u2019s significantly higher than fees that you get for speeding. So there\u2019s a coherence about our criminal justice system and, as the Ministry of Justice advised, increasing it to a maximum of $1,000 would cut across that. But, more important, despite the councils that Erica Stanford quoted from their submissions, was the issues that councils have raised about how enforcement can happen and some of the more substantive problems with the Litter Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo this bill, on its own, because it is so narrow, is not going to fix that. As the official advice noted, the Hon Scott Simpson is assuming that just increasing the penalty will have a deterrent effect but, actually, the major thing that has a deterrent effect is the certainty around being detected, and the compliance and enforcement regime that occurs. What a number of those councils were raising in their submissions to the select committee was that there were issues both in the legislation and the way in which enforcement regimes operated that were the problem. And we have seen from the report that the Environmental Defence Society did\u2014the Last Line of Defence\u2014how little gets invested in compliance, monitoring, and enforcement by councils. So the severity of the penalties doesn\u2019t produce a corresponding increase in deterrence as the National Party and the Hon Scott Simpson seem to think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo the Ministry for the Environment and I are aware that the Litter Act has some inadequacies. Those are being looked at, but that is not the priority in fixing the nine years of neglect around waste that we had with the former National Government and that member, the Hon Scott Simpson, who was once Associate Minister for the Environment and who could have taken action in this space. We are focusing on the bigger picture issues which is doing something about expanding the landfill levy which was recommended in a major review of the landfill levy in 2017. The National Government didn\u2019t act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWhat else didn\u2019t they act on? They didn\u2019t ensure that there are any mandatory product stewardship schemes. They just relied on voluntary schemes. That\u2019s something where we\u2019re taking action in relation to tyres, so that we have responsibility right through the supply chain. So we need a comprehensive approach to waste. Litter is a subset of that. There is already in the legislation, both in the Litter Act and in the Resource Management Act, adequate penalties to deal with severe offending like fly-tipping, and the councils like Auckland have been increasing their response; making sure that when there are examples of fly-tipping, that that is cleaned up quickly, making sure that there is more effective enforcement through things like cameras, and actually taking prosecutions, and some quite significant prosecutions in Manurewa and the Waitakere Ranges where people were charged with fly-tipping of oil drums. So that taking action is going to have much more effect than simply increasing the maximum fee for infringement notices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt is an opportunity that has been lost by this member in not looking across the Litter Act and ensuring that this was a real response to the issues around enforcement, around deterrence. It\u2019s only just a very, very, very narrow piece, and a pretence at action, which is what we saw the National Government doing when it was in power. So that is why the Green Party will not be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe point that Deborah Russell made about others\u2014I think it was in Taranaki\u2014focusing on things like cigarette butts is an important one. Keep New Zealand Beautiful, the educational campaigns that they have been doing to improve the culture around littering and the research that they have done have shown that the issue of cigarette butts is a very real one, and they have recommended that that be the next big area of focus in terms of behaviour change and litter prevention campaigns. I know that in Auckland, where there\u2019s been a trial of a litter traps that can be retrofitted into stormwater grates to catch litter and prevent it going into the stormwater system and into the sea, that in an 11 month trial where 10 kilograms of rubbish was collected at Beresford Street in central Auckland, over that 11 months and in that 10 kilograms there were 2,000 cigarette butts. So people changing their behaviour around cigarette butts, ensuring that if you\u2019re smoking, you put it in the bin, rather than just littering, can have a real difference in protecting our marine environment and stopping this waste getting into our oceans and being eaten by fish, seabirds, and other marine life. So that sort of education campaign will make much more of a difference. The things like litter traps as a practical example of how we can prevent contamination\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271df51f7585842719a786fa1a39550c9\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: No wonder Green members are so angry at the lack of action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022231ba4b67efa42acbf10e5fcc8558ef9\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of our rivers and streams and oceans makes much more a difference\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288ca44cfe8854ac08ac3a1db0ccd9301\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I apologise to the member. I just have to say to the Hon Scott Simpson, you can interject, but it\u2019s bordering on heckling. And I would ask you to resist being quite so vocal about this and allow the member an opportunity to continue with her speech. The Hon Eugenie Sage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212197e4bc4704ad0a611b72f07641336\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. So those sorts of practical initiatives, wider education campaigns, reinforcing the culture that New Zealanders have that we don\u2019t like littering, will make more of a difference than just this simple increase in the maximum fee that can be charged for an infringement notice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere is a real issue too that we don\u2019t have a big handle on data across the country. There\u2019s been really good research done by Keep New Zealand Beautiful, but we need more data so that we can ensure that our response is well targeted. Again, that is something that this Government is doing in the waste space, alongside expanding the landfill levy, ensuring that we get more information on what is going to landfill so that we can have more waste data so that we ensure that our policies are well directed\u2014again, something that the former National Government did not do anything about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAnother thing that it didn\u2019t do anything about was the other issues around the Litter Act and the fact that it is very difficult and an enforcement offence for people who are perhaps throwing something out the window of a vehicle. At the moment, the way the legislation is crafted means it\u2019s difficult for the litter officers appointed by councils to actually pin that on anyone, because they\u2019ve got to find the person who did it, rather than just the vehicle drive. So we recognise that there are issues with the Litter Act, but it needs a much more comprehensive review than this bill has attempted. It is much further down the priority list than the effort that this Government is making to use the tools in the Waste Minimisation Act. I would correct Erica Stanford. That was not a National Party initiative. It was a member\u2019s bill from Nandor Tanczos which the last Labour Government picked up as a Government bill. This Government is making sure that the tools in that Act are well-used, rather than allowing them to gather dust as the former National Government did. Thank you Madam Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1410f0a481749028d5e7c19fddc2580\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1410f0a481749028d5e7c19fddc2580\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand this is a split call. The Hon Nicky Wagner, you have five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022f92071f05a2c4b77862a3a37f74b9b89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f92071f05a2c4b77862a3a37f74b9b89\u0022\u003EHon NICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s been a really interesting night. We\u2019ve heard lots of speeches from the other side of the House about how terrible littering is, and about how New Zealanders don\u2019t like litter. We\u2019ve heard lots of stories of unspeakable messes on our beaches, dumping of clothes, fish heads, all sorts of things around this place, and we\u2019ve also heard that New Zealanders like to keep New Zealand clean and green. And yet, after all that angst, after all those issues that are happening in our communities, the other side won\u2019t vote for this very small but elegant bill that will make a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ESo I don\u2019t know if they\u2019re trying to be a little bit obtuse, but this is about raising the maximum dollar sign of an infringement from $400 to $1,000. It doesn\u2019t mean that you have to charge somebody $1,000 for dropping a cigarette butt. What it means is you have a choice between $1 and $1,000 to make sure that you can craft the fine that suits the crime\u2014the fine that suits the crime. And we\u2019ve heard there are plenty of littering crimes happening in our communities at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EI agree that New Zealanders are really proud of living in a clean, green country. They\u2019re keen to look after it and\u2014I agree with Mr Strange\u2014they do like to maybe refuse, reuse, and recycle their waste. But some people, a small minority, don\u2019t; they litter. And what\u2019s more not only do they litter but they also fly-tip and they illegal dump right across our communities. We heard in select committee that councils are really struggling to manage this. It\u2019s costing them millions of dollars and in Auckland alone it cost $5 million a year to clean this stuff up. The councils want this bill because they believe it will help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ENow, of course litter looks untidy but that\u2019s only the start. Litter and rubbish are strewn by the winds, by the waterways, by the oceans right across our environment. They clog up our drains, they strangle the waterways, and often they strangle wildlife\u2014and we\u2019ve all seen photographs of plastic around fish necks and seals and things like that. Litter is unhealthy for humans as well. It attracts vermin and it\u2019s a breeding ground for bacteria. And as it decomposes it pollutes both water and soil. And an interesting fact, which I think has been raised over the other side, about the number of cigarette butts that are littered and get into our environment: they take over 10 years to decompose. For over a decade, their toxic waste is going into our environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ESo I do support this bill. I think, if we want to deter littering\u2014and we\u2019ve heard right across the House tonight that we do want to deter littering and most New Zealanders agree and all the councils agree\u2014that an increased amount for this infringement tells people that this is a serious issue. A significant fine is valid because littering costs councils, and I just want to divert a bit: when we say \u201Ccosts councils\u201D, actually it costs ratepayers. It costs ratepayers\u2014you and me and everybody else\u2014to pick up this litter, to clean up the environment. It threatens our natural environment and it threatens wildlife. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m particularly disappointed when we hear the other side understanding the dangers of littering, understanding that people don\u2019t want it, understanding the costs, and yet they\u2019re still not prepared to vote for this bill. They are quite happy to accept the damage that littering\u2019s doing to our environment and our wildlife and our community amenity because littered communities are not people friendly. They give an air of neglect. They make people feel that nobody cares. They\u2019re a depressing place and they undermine the amenity of our communities. I think it\u2019s really important that we deter littering. Most New Zealanders do and I really hope that the rest of the House would vote for this bill. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022 data-id=\u00224a1584ce433e40d9ada7a0068d6d98e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a1584ce433e40d9ada7a0068d6d98e5\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare. I\u2019m not a member of the Environment Committee but, firstly, can I acknowledge Scott Simpson. He\u2019s actually brought a big issue to this House. Littering is a huge issue and so I want to acknowledge his commitment to addressing it. But in preparing for tonight, I was trying to find the evidence about the efficacy of this legislative reform and actually it seems like we\u2019re replicating what the UK did because, essentially, they doubled the fines in 2016 and this year it\u2019s now a \u00A3150 fine. So that\u2019s been the tool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EBut I think in communities like mine, Manurewa\u2014and if I look at Auckland Council\u2014I think there\u2019s been a convergence of this littering issue with waste management and minimisation plan initiatives and I highlight that because one of the big issues we\u2019ve had is the reduction in the size of our bins, for example\u2014and to get a bigger bin, it actually costs you $85. So in poorer communities, we\u2019ve tried to force them to recycle to minimise their waste and I think what we\u2019ve seen, and particularly in communities like mine, is that this illegal dumping phenomenon is actually a massive problem and it\u2019s way more than $5 million, because that\u2019s a 2012 figure. So I\u2019m here to say that this is an issue; is this the best solution?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI guess when I look at my council and their submission, I also look at the submission from Local Government New Zealand who\u2019s highlighted that we have a 40-year-old Litter Act. So what they\u2019ve asked us to consider actually as a Parliament are practical ways to help them enforce and issue infringement notices. People may not know but for the council to issue a notice\u2014because that\u2019s what we\u2019re wanting to do; we\u2019re wanting to supposedly give councils more tools to deter people from littering\u2014for one of those littering notices to be issued, a council officer has to either (a) observe a person littering, or (b) have reasonable cause to suspect such an offence was in the act of being carried out or had just being committed. And therein lies the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EA lot of these things happen\u2014and I\u2019ve looked at the national litter survey, which was released in July 2018, and the biggest things that are littered are snack food packaging, disposable drink containers, paper. How are we supposed to prove who that belonged to and who should be issued with this littering penalty to deter them from littering? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EOne of the other things I decided to do was to actually look at effective interventions and I found a paper titled Effective Interventions on littering behaviour of youngsters, published in 2015 from the Netherlands. And these are some of the things that actually work based on evidence. So you use social surroundings; you target groups not individuals. And I certainly would like to reinforce that. I\u2019d like a community approach to some of these issues. You have group commitment; you use leaders as influencers. You also attract attention to the issue, so you connect the views of community members and their interest and their enthusiasm in trying to address the littering issues. You target beliefs about the effects of littering on the environment. So the relationship our children have with the environment is fundamental to any programme going forward, because if our young kids love the environment, guess what? They\u2019re going to look after it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EOK, so we need to promote more outdoor environmental education. We reward proper waste disposal. You need to look at mechanisms that are going to help change people\u2019s behaviour but also for that behaviour to continue and for them to share that behaviour with their children. And you also facilitate proper waste disposal behaviour. In that regard that\u2019s about: have we got enough disposable mechanisms\u2014so bins\u2014so that we can put our litter in. Do we keep away smells? Do we remove litter immediately because actually litter creates more litter? And it is about bins being clean and easily accessible, as I\u2019ve highlighted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003ESo, Mr Simpson, I want to thank you for bringing the issue to the House, but as an effective legislative reform I\u2019ve got to say it just does not stack up. And it doesn\u2019t stack up for a number of reasons and one of the biggest is that many councils aren\u2019t using these littering enforcement notices anyway. I mean there are a whole lot that I could have talked about where they haven\u2019t actually issued any so if that\u2019s your solution to this problem, it\u2019s fundamentally flawed. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229884e8e8-651f-4f48-a429-70b72d5e2821\u0022 data-id=\u00226616b193f1b7464ca6e70e59e3c742e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229884e8e8-651f-4f48-a429-70b72d5e2821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226616b193f1b7464ca6e70e59e3c742e5\u0022\u003ESARAH DOWIE (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker, for this opportunity and it may surprise this House that I rise in support of the Hon Scott Simpson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1ccb5df321a4af1b1a67e799eceaf53\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229884e8e8-651f-4f48-a429-70b72d5e2821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210ef0a2dbfa74d78bb48226a7b1d6996\u0022\u003ESARAH DOWIE\u003C/span\u003E: I do. I rise in support of the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s bill, the Litter (Increased Infringement Fee) Amendment Bill in the second reading. It\u2019s a pleasure to work with the Hon Scott Simpson. He is leading our environment policy team and it is a new team with new ideas based on science. So we looking at scientific solutions to environmental issues and this is no different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229884e8e8-651f-4f48-a429-70b72d5e2821\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not sure actually what the Hon Scott Simpson has done to offend this Government, this greenest Government ever that apparently is taking environmental issues very seriously. I mean the scope of this bill is very narrow. In fact, it is a teeny-weeny bill but has such wide-reaching ramifications that could really assist in the mitigation of litter in our community. And so I\u2019m just really not sure why this Government\u2014the greenest Government ever, the one that takes environmental issues so seriously and calls climate change our nuclear-free moment\u2014is not supporting this teeny-weeny bill that would have wide-reaching ramifications on litter. Could it be simply because it was introduced by a National Party member and if that is the case that is really petty for this country moving forward with regards to litter minimisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229884e8e8-651f-4f48-a429-70b72d5e2821\u0022\u003EAs I said before, this is a new team with new ideas in the environmental space, and I do want to point out that, as part of the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s crusade for waste minimisation, we published our first discussion document on 23 February\u2014a National Party environmental discussion document; a starter for six\u2014which included a number of waste minimisation points for discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229884e8e8-651f-4f48-a429-70b72d5e2821\u0022\u003EIsn\u2019t it amazing when all of a sudden you get a response from the likes of Fish \u0026amp; Game and Greenpeace that they\u2019re happy with the National Party\u2019s ideas? I think that\u2019s something that we are showing leadership in in this space. We have shown leadership in the past, and we\u2019re showing leadership moving forward, in that we want our country\u2014New Zealand\u2014to be a fantastic place for our children and our grandchildren to grow in and enjoy our environment. So to the greenest Government ever: watch this space. National is absolutely gunning for you in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229884e8e8-651f-4f48-a429-70b72d5e2821\u0022\u003ELook, I said before that this is a narrow scoped bill but it does have wide-reaching ramifications, and it is about an infringement system. Interestingly, the Government supported the Department of Conservation\u2019s (DOC\u2019s) infringement system and didn\u2019t seem to have any problems with allowing DOC rangers and officers to have that power when it comes to wildlife, but when it comes to councils and litter, they\u2019re not so sure. This is an infringement system that would allow swift justice to be met. It de-clogs the justice system and the courts, and looks at a graduated system of an infringement fine, raising it from $400 to $1,000 for the offence of littering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229884e8e8-651f-4f48-a429-70b72d5e2821\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ve heard in previous speeches, we would let council officers use their discretion to put in place a fine to the offender that was proportionate to the offence. And, again, the Opposition have even talked about littering acts in their electorates and have shown that there is more offensive-style littering that goes on and then there is quite minimal littering in that graduated system. So it is about looking at how much littering is going on for that one person and then deciding what the appropriate fine should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229884e8e8-651f-4f48-a429-70b72d5e2821\u0022\u003ERubbish is a very serious issue in New Zealand and the Invercargill electorate is no different\u2014the southernmost province, which I represent\u2014and, in fact, when it came to Oreti Beach, that seems to be one of the places in Invercargill that gets littered the most; our wonderful beach, one that you can still drive your motor vehicle on to and enjoy. I ran a beach clean-up in 2017 and in total collected 170 kilograms of rubbish as part of that beach clean-up. We had 150 people show up, and it was mainly bottles, cans, plastic, and rope, but we even found a burnt out car, which is, obviously, more than littering. But it\u2019s quite a significant problem when you have people recreating on the beach and they simply don\u2019t pick up their rubbish when they leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229884e8e8-651f-4f48-a429-70b72d5e2821\u0022\u003EAs I said before, this infringement system looks to bring about speedy justice, to de-clog the court system, and to penalise those who don\u2019t have a responsible ethic with respect to our environment. And it works; it isn\u2019t true that fines don\u2019t deter people from offending, and that is no different with respect to litter. There was a member opposite who compared the bill to a country, in Taiwan, and I equally would like to compare it to Singapore. Now, many of us have had the privilege of travelling to Singapore. It\u2019s obviously a small country but heavily populated, and so they have to take their environment very, very seriously. Interestingly, they have a serious offence regime with respect to littering. For first-time offenders, with respect to littering, they\u2019re actually fined S$2,000; for second-time offending, S$4,000; and for third-time offenders, S$10,000. That\u2019s how serious they take littering, and then if it goes beyond that, they actually have a scheme where there is a corrective work order and people are actually put to work to clean up rubbish themselves. Now, I don\u2019t think anyone who has visited Singapore can say to me that it\u2019s not a very beautiful country and that litter is at a minimum. So I would say to the members opposite that an infringement system does work, that an infringement system is effective, and that if we have pride in our country, then we would take heed of this bill and vote for it and see it to put into place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229884e8e8-651f-4f48-a429-70b72d5e2821\u0022\u003ELook, in 2016, 30 councils spent $2.4 million cleaning up illegally dumped rubbish. Now, what could we be doing, better spending that money, if we could deter people from littering? And I think this bill goes to the heart of the problem with respect to litter. Our country is precious, our environment is precious, and the effects of too much litter on our streets and in our environment need to be dealt with. And, as I said before, this is a narrow bill but it is an effective one, and infringement systems do work, just like the Department of Conservation infringement system that that Government voted for to give extra powers to DOC Rangers to get on top of conservation problems swiftly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229884e8e8-651f-4f48-a429-70b72d5e2821\u0022\u003ESo I think that this is a very good bill. It is a small bill, but it is effective and has wide-ranging ramifications. I can\u2019t see why this Government won\u2019t support it. If they are so serious about the environment, then they should be getting in behind this bill, which would have significant effect moving forward for our community and for our environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u0022b184a6c216fc47788282f969569ec8ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b184a6c216fc47788282f969569ec8ce\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Assistant Speaker. Thank you very much for the opportunity to stand and take a call on behalf of New Zealand First on this the Litter (Increased Infringement Fee) Amendment Bill. I\u2019d just like to start off by doing a little bit of a recap as I am the second to last speaker on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EThe Litter (Increased Infringement Fee) Amendment Bill is a member\u2019s bill in the name of Hon Scott Simpson, and I\u2019d just like to acknowledge the member for bringing this bill to the House, also too acknowledging my members and colleagues from both sides of the House who are on the Environment Committee. Generally, we work very collegially together, with the environment at the heart of the work that we\u2019re doing in that hard-working committee\u2014also too making note of the committee being well chaired by the chair from Labour, Dr Deborah Russell. So I just acknowledge everyone in the committee and this bill and what it sets out to do\u2014amending the Litter Act 1979\u2014to increase that maximum fine for infringements from $400 to $1,000. Through the select committee process, we heard from 13 submitters. Of those 13 submissions, we heard oral evidence from three of the submitters. That happened in Wellington in July 2018; so some six months ago now. The Ministry for the Environment also provided the committee with advice, and I\u2019ll come to that advice in just a moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EDuring the Christmas holidays, previously in my former incarnation, working in a newsroom, we would spend the summertime, particularly over the Christmas and New Year period, wondering what kind of fluffy animal story we would be able to write that day to fill up the bulletin. This year over the summertime, newsrooms all around the country were particularly obsessed, as the rest of New Zealand became obsessed, as it hit the headlines here and overseas. You probably may have read or heard or seen about the path of minor destruction that was caused by a British family on holiday, as they wreaked havoc through Auckland, then down to Hamilton, into Levin. Even Levin\u2019s mayor had Levin on high alert.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EThis unruly family\u2014\u201Cunruly tourists\u201D as they were dubbed\u2014certainly held the attention of most New Zealanders. They probably didn\u2019t realise that it was the rubbish that they spread at Takapuna that really raised our ire, because people of my generation were raised to be a tidy Kiwi. Now, this was an education campaign all about picking up litter, making sure that if there was litter on the ground, we actually went and picked it up. At school, we were on litter duty. So it became part of our collective consciousness to actually be tidy and to pick up litter. So the unruly tourists actually didn\u2019t realise how much New Zealanders actually hate rubbish, because it has been well entrenched into our psyche to be tidy Kiwis. So it\u2019s about this education. That is really the strength of how we can change behaviour, and doing that when we are young informs a type of behaviour that sticks with us through our lives, and it certainly has with me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EComing back to the select committee, I mentioned that the Ministry for the Environment came to us and talked about this bill, and their advice was that raising the fee to $1,000 would be \u201Cunusual and inconsistent with the infringement fees that exist for more serious offending.\u201D\u2014such as the discharging of a contaminant into the environment from maybe industry or trade premises. \u201CIn addition, given the issues around enforcement there is no certainty that a larger infringement fee would result in a greater, or any, deterrent for littering.\u201D\u2014this is the Ministry for the Environment; this is their advice that they gave to the committee. And they also said that \u201Cproportionality is an important factor and \u2026 there are other policy tools available to communicate the seriousness of littering,\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EAuckland Council made a submission, and they had in the year 2017-18 received and investigated 1,644 complaints regarding littering and illegal dumping, which is at the other end of the scale, and \u201Cof these 1,644 investigations, for various reasons, only 67 infringement fines were issued.\u201D And the total of those 67 fines netted them $8,500. So they also explained to us why they believe that simply raising the fine would not necessarily resolve the problem of littering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EWe heard from Graeme Edgeler. He came and made a verbal submission and he suggested also that the $1,000 infringement fee for littering is actually \u201Cout of all proportion with the offense of littering, and out of line with infringement fees for other infringement offences at a similar level. Local authorities\u201D\u2014and I\u2019m quoting now\u2014\u201Cdo not need the power to adopt bylaws providing for a $1000 infringement fee for littering. They already have sufficient powers under the current legislation.\u201D And then he made note later in has submission that \u201CAn increase in the infringement fee to $1000, would see low-level littering punished with an infringement fee much higher than those imposed for driving 49km/h over the speed limit, or drink-driving in respect of the new lower limit is clearly disproportionate.\u201D Also Diana Duncan made note that we need to not just think about littering but also \u201Creduce the production and importation of single use plastics across New Zealand.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EReduce, reuse, recycle: those are words we\u2019re hearing a lot at the moment. So what is the Government doing? Because littering, as we heard the Minister Hon Eugenie Sage mention, is only one small section in this whole great waste minimisation and how we\u2019re dealing with our waste across the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003ESo there are four projects that the Government is currently working on: the Keep New Zealand Beautiful project, \u201CDo the right thing\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd4c493f61f346059cd8c24b18f304cc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! It is about reporting back what came from the select committee rather than saying what is general Government policy. So come back to the bill, if you could.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225edd6de654bc493d9ab8f6c88dc99cb5\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. Of course, New Zealand First\u2014we do support reasonable measures to clean up New Zealand. However, we actually feel that the suggested $1,000 fine that\u2019s set out in the bill is actually excessive. So, by and large, applying a punitive approach in and of itself actually does not and will not achieve stopping of this littering behaviour. We believe it\u2019s actually all about education. It\u2019s about educating the next generation, just like we were educated to be tidy Kiwis. So that\u2019s what we need to do. We need to bring back those types of campaigns. We need to teach our young people to be tidy. So this Keep New Zealand Beautiful campaign, which was originally founded back in 1969, that\u2019s all about litter reduction. It\u2019s about waste minimisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c81ea33a844441e8d7f4d6e681286c1\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: National Government!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227393e3d4587447b88e43d392a77fdfa2\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT\u003C/span\u003E: You did have some averagely OK ideas, so let\u2019s bring some new ones forward, which this Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to finish off by just concluding that New Zealand First will not be supporting this bill. We did not support it at first reading and we continue to not support it now, but on that I\u2019d like to say kia ora koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcf307b79ed84829ae493705e7c6173d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcf307b79ed84829ae493705e7c6173d\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Like the previous speaker, I too came to this debate very late in the piece today, but my jaw simply dropped when I heard that the Labour Party and the Green party are going to oppose a bill that raises the fines on people who litter throughout New Zealand. My jaw dropped because the people of Northcote will be very upset at this move. If you want any proof of how far the Green Party has strayed from their true core environmental beliefs, it is to look no further than tonight. This Government is again all talk and all platitudes and very little action. They\u2019re all very big on making you feel good and dropping those fluffy phrases, but not on delivery and not on substantive behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard many speeches here tonight, and I want to traverse some of the key arguments that are coming from the Labour Party and the Green Party on why they are not supporting the member\u2019s bill of my very good colleague, the Hon Scott Simpson. We all know that the Prime Minister wants rational debates. So this is where we will have a rational discussion around some of the key issues that have been raised this evening. The first is that fines don\u2019t deter behaviour. That\u2019s what we\u2019ve heard from the opposite side. But what I\u2019m saying is let\u2019s debate how to make these fines work, how to make this enforceable, because fines, if you can be very blunt, act in the way that negative taxes do, or taxes on negative actions. Think about taxes like the capital gains tax\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a816f91c81b4c9389b51701815ea48c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Come back to the bill, thank you. I\u2019ve already admonished one speaker for straying from the report back from the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c7bf405eb824aa19c4fb5ed2a7d0bd7\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Assistant Speaker, thank you. I want to be clear that having a fine on targeting negative behaviour, and I\u2019m actually making a comparison to taxes that in fact also deliver\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b94e4d199b65426aa5093e5003761e7d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Was that part of the discussion during the select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b6f1dcd40bd461185d5d88c5208af2c\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: No, but I\u2019m\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226750b91ead1c4686a053284833a8fba9\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re not constrained; it\u2019s the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a223f05fb4e04aa982c7f4e8df29c911\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, it\u2019s the second reading\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aa79eb9ae9046cdbf3d99bf7b6cbcc8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0f133fecfd74030b3a2fa1dd83f42a6\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: But, Madam Assistant Speaker, I do think it\u2019s important because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd255c1131294b23b656c670e91afe7c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: You may consider it important, but I would like you to confine yourself to the matters at hand, which is submissions, discussion at select committee, and how the bill has come back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff76ceb369144cdc856b174ef7b1039a\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: OK, Madam Assistant Speaker. So on this topic I simply want to put to the other side: let\u2019s debate how to make these fines work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EAnother point that\u2019s been raised in the discussion tonight is that the fines imposed are disproportionate to the offence that has occurred. But let\u2019s have that debate, and we could have the debate in the committee as a whole about exactly what that fine level should be at. We\u2019ve heard that there has been support from the other side for a $500 penalty, so why not have that discussion in the committee stage and convince us that in fact $500 is worthy and not $1,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s get to the third key point that this Government is using as a way to vote this bill down. They\u2019re saying that they have a better plan. So let\u2019s talk about their plan. They\u2019ve got a Waste Minimisation Fund, an expansion of the disposable levy fund, and the waste disposal levy level that they want to increase as well. But my question to that side of the House is: can you tell me how the Waste Minimisation Fund will stop the person down at Little Shoal Bay throwing their can of Coke in the river or in the stream? Can you tell me how somebody who goes and drops litter on private property is going to be affected by improving data, which we say that side of the House is trying to do? Because it\u2019s very clear from where I sit and where we sit on this side of the House that their action plan does not in fact get us to a case where no one is littering in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ESo I want to come to the reasons why we support this very important bill. We know that it\u2019s a big issue in New Zealand\u201416 percent of all trash is done through litter. It\u2019s not going through some formal waste disposal mechanism. Now, that side of the House wants to say that that\u2019s not an issue, that that\u2019s OK. I\u2019m sorry, but the people in Northcote\u2014frankly speaking, 16 percent is far too much for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThe second point is that this is part of the solution. Improving the fines and raising the fines level is part of the overall solution. We know that it\u2019s not going to\u2014hand on heart\u2014solve the issue of litter on our streets, but it\u2019s part of the solution. Like any problem that we debate in the House tonight, it is a multifaceted problem, and to say that raising a fine isn\u2019t going to make a single difference makes a mockery of all the other fines that we actually have in New Zealand. So enforcement is important and it\u2019s part of the challenge, but it\u2019s not the full picture. So I do want to agree with the other side of the House on one point they\u2019ve made this evening, which is around the cultural change that needs to occur in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker, Jenny Marcroft, raised the \u201CBe a tidy Kiwi\u201D campaign and how successful that was, thanks to the Sir Keith Holyoake - led National Government in the 1960s. I would like to see this campaign revitalised, because I think that it is time for us to revitalise and change our culture because not all of us grew up in that era and some of us, particularly new New Zealanders, may not be aware of those cultural changes and that value that we had when we were growing up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EBut to just throw out the fines system because it\u2019s simply a cultural issue, I think, is a silly and irresponsible idea by that side of the House, because to put proactive but also practical suggestions on how we can reduce litter in New Zealand is extremely important. But no, this Government is playing politics. They, in fact, lack integrity, and let me elaborate on what I mean by that. Their words do not reflect their actions in the House tonight\u2014their words do not reflect their actions in the House tonight. The Green Party, I thought, was all about getting litter off our streets, improving our environment, and they have the opportunity to demonstrate the congruence and the integrity that I believe that the Green Party had, but unfortunately lacks in the House this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ESo we will be supporting this bill, and it is a shame that this Government is deciding to vote this bill down, because we want a tidy country in New Zealand, but behavioural change doesn\u2019t happen overnight. It is part of a long-run series of reforms that includes the carrot and stick methodology, increasing fines, holding people accountable, educating the public, and improving information, and I believe that through that we can get there in the House tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI\u2019m disappointed that the House is not going to pass this bill. The people in Northcote will be particularly unhappy about this bill being voted down and, dare I say, the environmental groups in the area of Northcote will be very upset that we are not looking at improving the fines structure. I would have liked to have devoted more time to this in the committee as a whole, but I commend this bill to the House. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002265c15e69d93748e8bda2acd84ac6ac2e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Litter (Increased Infringement Fee) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a4278b0e66e4149b0f9e45ce806d678\u0022\u003EHealth and Safety at Work (Volunteer Associations) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225eafbc0040ea46bb9f8aaa9a6cf0c82e\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u00225b98ae85d98f44ef87af17e790e0435f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b98ae85d98f44ef87af17e790e0435f\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. E t\u016B ahau ki te karanga o t\u0113nei Whare. E t\u012Bmata taku k\u014Drero mahi tuatahi o te tauhou i roto i Te Whare. E mihi ana ki ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E[Thank you. I stand to the call of this House. I commence my first work speech of the new year in the House. Greetings to all the people.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI take my first call in the House for 2019, and in so doing I pay homage to my colleagues here in the House but also I take the opportunity to speak in Te Reo M\u0101ori. It\u2019s something that rather than just once a year for a week\u2014that we make an effort to revive and speak and use the Reo, and I encourage my colleagues to make a concerted effort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ee3a105e68c44eb90537c3fb0c0a23f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to interrupt the member, but there\u2019s a motion that the member needs to move first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258cb74747476453c86cf6f09e7ffd8a5\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I move the motion, That the bill now be taken to its second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ba5e0a07c224a85b6cb012b973d2e36\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we\u2019ll get the words to her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6677aa9e1e04a829f0f60e28a7b6646\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO\u003C/span\u003E: The correct wording? Thank you. I move, That the Health and Safety at Work (Volunteer Associations) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e104a53664f44782a1ba3d43629989c4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: K\u014Drero mai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e71669f78d344b03890c97d239b2c611\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. So, Mr Assistant Speaker and members of the House, I continue in terms of acknowledgment of Te Reo M\u0101ori, and I encourage everybody around the continuation of the using of it, otherwise we lose that as we embark on the journey with this. I just hearken members also that this year, I believe, for the first time lessons will be offered to us, and I invite people to embark on that language learning journey on 20 March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ENow, I turn, importantly, as well to the bill, Mr Assistant Speaker, and with your indulgence may I seize this moment\u2014being the first opportunity to address the House this year\u2014to acknowledge not only the passing of 2018, going into the new year, but also the acknowledgment of loved and treasured ones. And, briefly, I turn to acknowledge a well-regarded member of my community in the Whanganui electorate, councillor Sue Westwood, who gave service for 30 years in that capacity as a councillor but also as a lifelong volunteer to our community in Whanganui. Councillor Sue Westwood\u2014a robust, statuesque, powerful, and strong woman whose contribution over the course of her lifetime to our community, particularly our volunteer sector, was notably significant, and I pay homage to her. She added value to the health, the well-being, and the safety of our community in Whanganui and also further afield, giving immeasurable and invaluable service over the course of her lifetime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ENow I turn to the bill, and just on reflection, with the passing of a year and the passing of life, I turn, just briefly, to make mention of the bill that was before the House. I make mention of that because last weekend, as the member of Parliament for Whanganui, I joined with a number of volunteers back in Whanganui to spruce and clean up the waterways. The relevance of the bill being debated previously\u2014before this bill before the House\u2014is that it also engaged the service and the time of volunteers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ENow I turn, importantly, to what this amendment is about. Clause 4 is seeking to amend section 17 of the principal Act, in that the definition of \u201Cvolunteer association\u201D is changed so as to include associations which have people in paid employment for the association for not greater than 100 hours per week. The report back to the House from the Education and Workforce Committee is dated November 2018. I sat and presided with the other members of that committee, and I acknowledge them for their contribution, as well as the submitters to that bill. There were a total of 34 written submissions to the bill, eight of which were in favour, four neutral, and 22 opposed. What\u2019s of note is that those submitters to the bill who spoke to the committee and were opposed were predominantly large organisations. The eight who spoke in favour were smaller voluntary organisations, and that was very much indicative of the strained resources and the difficulties that our smaller volunteer associations in our community have in terms of the provision of a valued service within the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EWhen I first spoke to this bill at the first reading, that was 4 April 2018. We\u2019re now some 11 months down the line. I note across the House my colleague from New Zealand First who was one of those speakers at that time who literally threw a lifeline. The member spoke about being a volunteer member of a surf lifesaving club. I made mention at that first reading that that lifeline that had been thrown enabled this bill to go before the select committee for submissions to be heard. Regrettably, this bill is going to sink because that lifeline has been withdrawn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI also shared with the House at this time last year that, coincidentally, I had just returned from Australia, where my daughter had competed in the Australian Surf Life Saving Championships. She came away from that\u2014and a proud Mama moment\u2014as a champion. However, the problem that I stand confronted with, facing the House and members across the floor there, is that in my attempt to champion this bill, that lifeline has been withdrawn. This bill is sinking rapidly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EHowever, in saying that, I invite members across the House to heed and factor in that the debate and the argument that had been presented is very much on the basis that those submissions were from the focus of large organisations, well-resourced organisations, and referenced some of what I would consider, with respect, misrepresentations of what this bill is really about. I harken to the Hon Iain Lees-Galloway in the debate speeches referring to this as a normal part of doing business. This bill is about volunteer organisations, not in the nature of doing business, and that word was repeatedly\u2014and that concept and construct\u2014referenced by the member, that this is about business. This is not; this is about our small, voluntary organisations, many of which run on the smell of an oily rag and do not have those oil-rich resources in the way of funding to be able to continue in their service without the necessity of having to employ or pay persons who would otherwise give their time voluntarily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe member from the Labour Party referenced being a volunteer service fireman, and, on reflection, in reading through the Hansard notes and speeches, the member was somewhat considerably inflammatory around the representation of what this bill is about. I seek to extinguish that by stating that the focus and the emphasis is about the survival of our smaller volunteer organisations, that many of our organisations, community-based, would not exist if not for the efforts of them. Ninety-seven thousand non-profit organisations, 1.2 million volunteers\u2014most if not all of the members in the House have at some stage or another volunteered our time and our service, without which having done so, much of the goodwill and constructive, positive contributions in our society and community simply would not exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe difficulty that our society and communities are now confronted with is that that voluntary goodwill is not able to keep these organisations afloat, if not for the fact of having to pay for some of those small administrative tasks whereby the legal responsibility of any sinking or any misdemeanour that goes on is onerous under this law. My other colleagues will address the House in other aspects that were submitted before the select committee, regrettably to say this bill is to be drowned, and it does not heed the valuable contribution of our volunteers in our communities. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022801c731782a94c159278a0cee508cc5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022801c731782a94c159278a0cee508cc5e\u0022\u003EHon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Assistant Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Labour Party to oppose the motion and to encourage other members of the House to follow the recommendation of the Education and Workforce Committee that this bill should not progress. I want to acknowledge all members of the select committee. I don\u2019t get to participate in the select committee these days, but I want to acknowledge all the members and the chair, Parmjeet Parmar, for their work in considering this legislation and hearing the submissions. I understand that the select committee received 34 written submissions, of which eight were in favour, four were neutral, and 22 were opposed, and amongst many of those submissions in opposition to this bill were voluntary organisations and umbrella organisations that represent a large number of small, voluntary organisations across the country. The overwhelming message that submitters wanted Parliament to hear was that with the right support, with the right tools, and with the right education all workplaces, whether they be businesses for profit, whether they be large NGOs, or whether they be small, voluntary organisations, should be able to operate and can operate under the auspices of the Health and Safety at Work Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIn fact, many submitters said they found that the rigour and the opportunity to learn more about their obligations under the Act made them more effective employers, made them more effective as voluntary organisations, and gave them an opportunity to provide a safe working environment for everybody that they were responsible for, whether they were paid employees or whether they were volunteers. So I think we as a Parliament should listen closely to those submitters, but I also think that this bill is fundamentally flawed because it is based on a flawed premise, which is that health and safety is onerous, that it is compliance-driven, and that it is about ticking boxes, when it is absolutely not that at all. It is about creating a culture that encourages people to speak up, that encourages people to identify hazards, to identify risks, and to encourage employers and people who are in charge of workplaces, whether they be profitable businesses or whether they be volunteer organisations, to take all reasonable and practicable steps to keep everybody who they are responsible for safe in the workplace. It also encourages everybody in that workplace\u2014workers, volunteers, contractors\u2014to take responsibility for the safety of themselves and the safety of others that they are working alongside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ESo the premise of this amendment bill is flawed, but even worse than that, it suggests that the Act itself is flawed, and I would be very interested to know what the Hon Michael Woodhouse thinks about that. The Hon Michael Woodhouse was the Minister in charge of the principal Act that this bill seeks to amend, when it was passed through Parliament, and I want to acknowledge the work that he did, because this is an important piece of legislation. It\u2019s not perfect, and I\u2019ll possibly come to some of the imperfections later on in my contribution this evening, but it is fundamentally a good piece of legislation, and it reflects where modern thinking throughout developed nations is at on health and safety. This amendment bill suggests that it\u2019s flawed because it suggests that it cannot apply to small, voluntary organisations. The language that I heard used in the first reading debate is that health and safety obligations are onerous and difficult for small organisations to comply with, which suggests to me that the National Party may even be wondering if they think this is applicable to small businesses. I think that\u2019s a shame, because they did good work in Government seeing this legislation through, and now, to see them turn around the moment they get into Opposition and start playing politics with what is such an important piece of legislation, frankly, disappoints me. I know that the Hon Michael Woodhouse is better than that; I hope that his colleagues can realise that they ought to behave in a better fashion as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns that I expressed during the first reading, and it continues to be a concern of mine, is that this bill sends precisely the wrong message at precisely the wrong time. We have made good progress as a nation on health and safety since the wake-up call that was the tragedy at Pike River. We made good progress because everybody suddenly returned their focus to health and safety in the workplace and realised that New Zealand needed a new approach to health and safety. However, the latest data tells us that between 2016 and 2017, we are seeing a plateauing. We are seeing the fall in injury and death rates in the workplace starting to level out\u2014we\u2019re not seeing the progress on those statistics that we saw in the years after Pike River\u2014and we are seeing a change in attitudes. People are starting to lose their focus again. This is precisely the time where we as a Parliament need to show leadership and remind everybody in New Zealand that we must not lose focus. In fact, there is an awful lot more work to be done. We have made progress, but we are still a very, very long way behind other developed nations such as Australia, such as the UK, and such as many European nations. We kill and maim far too many people in our workplaces in New Zealand, and this bill sends the wrong message at the wrong time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ENow, I acknowledge that the Health and Safety at Work Act is not perfect. Every single one of the parties that are now in Government expressed reservations about it when we were in Opposition. We could, like the member in charge of this bill, perhaps try and make amendments to this Act even though it is still new, even though businesses, employers, workplaces, NGOs, and volunteer organisations are still coming to grips with it, letting it bed in. I think that\u2019s the wrong approach. We have signalled\u2014I have signalled as Minister\u2014that we will undertake a review of the Act in 2020. That will be timely; the Australian Government have just completed a review of their model legislation, upon which New Zealand\u2019s legislation is based. The report from that review is a very useful document, and it will inform our review of the legislation, but now is not the time to create more uncertainty for those employers, those persons conducting a business or undertaking, those workers, and those volunteers who are getting used to the new legislation and putting it into operation at the front line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ELikewise, the work of completing the regulations or improving the regulations that give effect to this legislation has not been completed. That work needs to be allowed to continue, and we need to see the Act in operation before we rush to judgment about what changes might need to be made to it. So I encourage the member and her party to engage positively when it comes time to review this legislation and acknowledge that New Zealand does need robust health and safety legislation that puts workers at the centre and helps to create the culture that we need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ETo that effect, late last year, the Government published the Health and Safety at Work Strategy, which sets out the priorities for this Government over the next 10 years. This is something that is required in the Act, and we saw that through at the end of last year. It has two overriding priorities: one, that we have to focus on what will make the biggest impact to reduce harm. That\u2019s not about compliance, that\u2019s not about ticking boxes, that\u2019s not about paperwork; that is about looking in your workplace and making relevant changes in the workplace that will reduce the risks and hazards that exist in the workplace. It has a focus on work-related health, including mental health\u2014those workplaces with the greatest need, sectors with the highest harm, and small businesses; workers with the greatest need: M\u0101ori and other workers at greatest risk\u2014and it also makes as a priority building everyone\u2019s capability to do health and safety well. That, as I say, was a strong message that we heard from submitters, that we do need to encourage leaders at all levels to integrate health and safety into their work and enable workers to be represented, engaged, and to participate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EMembers, this is not the time for this legislation. This is the time to redouble our efforts to ensure that more of our working people and our volunteers go home at the end of the day in the same state and health as when they started this day. I encourage members to vote this bill down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022927ae2d9a76847c38a7f17fb5d9853ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022927ae2d9a76847c38a7f17fb5d9853ef\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to stand in this second reading debate on the Health and Safety at Work (Volunteer Associations) Amendment Bill in the name of my friend and colleague Harete Hipango. Now, I listened carefully to the speech from the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety, and I was somewhat surprised that he found time amongst his busy schedule and pile of papers that he needs to read as, apparently, a busy Minister to come down to the House on a members\u2019 night to speak, effectively, about just kicking the can down the road until 2020 on an important piece of legislation. That he\u2019s found time to do that I think is interesting in itself, particularly when we know that between first reading and this reading, the New Zealand First Party has changed their view on this, based on him kicking the can down the road until 2020. That surprises me. So here we have, yet again, another situation where a Government that was so full of promise and hope and sloganeering has actually just kicked the can in a way that means that nothing\u2014nothing\u2014will be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAs they come towards the end of their term in Government, 2020 will be far too late\u2014far too late. I would have thought that a Minister, on an evening like this, would have had maybe some more important things to be doing than coming down here to bolster the Government\u2019s pretty feeble approach to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe Education and Workforce Committee, chaired very capably by my colleague Dr Parmjeet Parmar, received 34 submissions on this bill\u2014eight were in favour, four neutral, and 22 opposed. Although I don\u2019t sit as a permanent member on the committee, I do from time to time get subbed in in terms of matters that relate to workplace relations legislation. I have to say, wearing that hat as the National Party spokesperson for workplace relations but also as the MP for the Coromandel, that I actually thought that this bill had some merit. It really does trouble me that as a Parliament, we seem not to have the wit or the imagination to confront and address obvious issues such as those that are raised by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe reason I say that as the member of Parliament for the beautiful Coromandel is that throughout my very large geographical electorate, many of my local communities depend utterly upon the work and the voluntary support that comes from generous volunteers\u2019 giving of their time, of their energy, of their enthusiasm, and of their commitment. For many of those organisations, they are small organisations. They are not organisations that are well resourced, that have enormous financial resources available to them. They inevitably are small in number and small in financial resource. So this bill seeks to carve out a practical solution to a problem, and that is where as soon as an organisation hires somebody, then that organisation becomes constrained and restricted by the provisions of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, increasingly those small organisations have to contract out, by way of employment, specialist expertise that can\u2019t be obtained through their normal volunteer recruitment processes. I\u2019m thinking here, for instance, about the many conservation groups that exist around the Coromandel Peninsula. Most of those people do trapping and pest control, and some very good tree planting and all that sort of thing, but they do have some income from money, and they have some other administrative duties, so often they have to go out and hire a financial accountant or the services of some kind of secretarial support\u2014all those sorts of things that are not core to their day-to-day voluntary operations but are none the less pivotal to their organisation\u2019s success and their ultimate achievement of their goals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, as soon as they go out and hire a person\u2014maybe it\u2019s a financial consultant or an accountant or a secretary or something of that sort\u2014the Act gets triggered, and that\u2019s really the matter that this legislation seeks to resolve. I\u2019m very disappointed on behalf of voluntary organisations up and down the country that New Zealand First, who often try and pitch themselves as being some kind of saint in terms of supporting regions outside urban New Zealand, in this case have, sadly, let rural and provincial New Zealand down, and particularly the volunteer organisations that operate within those organisations. So in this short contribution, I wish to support the bill, support the work and the initiative taken by my colleague Harete Hipango, and wish her well in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00221df671c0769e4da6986555374b3ff8b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221df671c0769e4da6986555374b3ff8b7\u0022\u003EJAN TINETTI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m delighted to actually take a call here in this particular bill, because I\u2019m a bit concerned about some of the material that I\u2019ve heard coming from the other side. I\u2019ve had concerns about this bill from the word go, because I believe that we\u2019ve got to be completely concerned in our country about the health and safety of all our workers\u2014not just some but every single worker in this country\u2014whether they are working for large organisations or whether they are working for small organisations or whether they are working in small voluntary-level clubs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard a lot that we\u2019ve had 34 submissions. We\u2019ve heard that from every single speaker so far, but we also heard that the 22 against were from mainly large organisations. Well, one of those organisations was Volunteering New Zealand. Volunteering New Zealand is an umbrella organisation which represents a number of volunteers, and a number of volunteer organisations feed into it. I know that because the fishing club that I\u2019m a member of, which is quite a small fishing club, is actually one of those clubs that will go to Volunteering New Zealand to seek out their volunteers. Now, in our fishing club, we actually employ staff. As a member of the club, I would be horrified to think that any of those staff members were not as worthy of the health and safety regulations as any other paid staff member of any organisation in this country. It is vitally important that we protect those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard tonight that New Zealand does have a woeful reputation on health and safety at work, and the premise of this bill, the way that I could see the whole way through, is that this bill undermines the whole concept of health and safety at work. It creates\u2014and we heard this in the submissions from a health and safety adviser\u2014another tier of a second-class worker. So if you are someone that is employed by a volunteer association, this bill almost made it seem that you are a second-class worker in that situation, and I can\u2019t see that there is any way that we can condone this in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe Health and Safety at Work Act, in the first place, as we\u2019ve heard from our Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety here this evening, was and is a very good piece of legislation. It is a piece of work that we are working on and extending all the time. That came from both sides of the House, so it surprises me that one side of the House here, with this particular bill, wants to water that piece of legislation down, wants to make it less than what it is, and wants to give people less rights than what they currently have. Now, yes, we did hear from those eight small organisations who were in favour of the bill. One of their main concerns around wanting this piece of legislation was that they felt that it was onerous and a burden on them, and they felt that that was hard when trying to get volunteers into their associations or into their organisations. I think there\u2019s a wider conversation that needs to be held there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI think the nature of volunteering has changed somewhat in this country, and that maybe organisations\u2014and I know that I have gone through this in my own clubs and service clubs that I am a member of. We need to relook at what we\u2019re meaning when we\u2019re saying \u201Cvolunteering\u201D. We need to look at whether there are alternatives and ways that we can make things different for those people, to encourage different people to come in to help volunteer. I do not believe for a moment, hearing those organisations speak in the select committee process, that the health and safety Act is completely\u2014or is at all, even\u2014behind why they are not getting the number of volunteers into their organisation. I think that, as I said, a different conversation actually needs to happen there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI think, though, for me, this is the big point that I took out of the whole of the select committee process: the advisers said to us that they considered that the bill as introduced presents a risk that it could extend the exclusion considerably wider than intended. So as it was written in that particular bill, this didn\u2019t, or could be interpreted that it didn\u2019t, just go towards looking at those small volunteer associations. Our advisers told us that it could be interpreted quite differently, and that\u2019s where we could have a big risk to education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe had some people who came in to present to us on education: people that were representing sole-charge schools, representing k\u014Dhanga reo playcentres, who do have a large volunteer base or are actually based on a volunteer base\u2014mainly volunteers\u2014but could actually employ someone for under the 100 hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ENow, in those situations our advisers did say to us that there is a chance that that could be considered and interpreted under this particular bill\u2014that they would come and this exemption would apply to them. I struggle with that when you\u2019re working in an education setting that you wouldn\u2019t have the same rights and health and safety rights as anyone else. I think that was the point for me where I thought that, really, this cannot progress and I know that for a lot of members on this side that that is when they felt exactly the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe heard from the member opposite, Harete Hipango, who put this bill forward, that in the first reading it talked about business as usual, and this wasn\u2019t business. I think there is probably a little bit of a misinterpretation of the phrase \u201Cbusiness as usual\u201D there, because, for these organisations, health and safety is the business of keeping their workers safe. It is absolutely critical that they are keeping their workers safe so that we are not creating that second tier of worker. It is that business. To interpret that statement as business, as in the business realm, is a little bit\u2014well, not quite as it was intended in that first reading. So this should be business as usual. It is really important that we see health and safety in every single organisation in this country, whether it is a paid, big organisation\u2014as I\u2019ve said right at the beginning\u2014or whether it is a small volunteer organisation. It is critically important that we see health and safety as central to that business or that organisation, and it is business as usual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWe heard from organisations such as, as I\u2019ve said, Volunteering New Zealand, who very much said the whole way through the organisation that the workers and the volunteers should not be subjected to a lower level of protection at all. We heard from the National Council of Women, who believe that the health and safety of every New Zealander is equally important, regardless of their employment status. We heard from the New Zealand Nurses Organisation, who also oppose this bill, Mr Assistant Speaker, and I ask your indulgence that I read this particular quote out, which states, \u201Cthis bill undermines fundamental principles of a coherent and consistent approach to health and safety at work and would compromise the health and safety of volunteers.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EMany of our people that actually presented to the Education and Workforce Committee and presented orally to the select committee weren\u2019t just concerned about the health and safety of the paid staff; they were concerned about the health and safety of the volunteers, as well. One last quote that I\u2019d ask your indulgence that I read out here, Mr Assistant Speaker, is from the Cancer Society of New Zealand. They said, \u201CExcluding certain volunteer-involving organisations goes against the principles of the [Health and Safety at Work] Act that workers have the right to go home safely after work (the pay scale is irrelevant) and the cost of compliance cannot be more important than the health and safety of the workers.\u201D That is the crux of it. Every single New Zealander wherever they work is important to this country. We need to take it really seriously here in this House that we keep their health and safety paramount. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4e71ef46bd7462b8cdc17dd8e049f29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4e71ef46bd7462b8cdc17dd8e049f29\u0022\u003ECLAYTON MITCHELL (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Assistant Speaker, thank you very much. I stand on behalf of New Zealand First to take a call on this Health and Safety at Work (Volunteer Associations) Amendment Bill. Before I start my contribution, I want to genuinely thank the member across from me, Harete Hipango, for bringing this bill to the House. We did support it in the first reading to get to select committee to hear from submitters, and, genuinely, New Zealand First supports the intent of what it is that you are trying to fix right here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EAs you\u2019ve already articulated, and as we\u2019ve already said to you, we won\u2019t be supporting this moving forward, and there\u2019s good reason\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228229731d4076439199d657158c5f08fe\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f7acc6ad1484767b2e42d3e70753c57\u0022\u003ECLAYTON MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if you listen, I\u2019ll tell you, Mr Bayly. That reason is quite simply because we don\u2019t think it goes far enough when it looks at the unintended consequences that the employment relations health and safety amendment bill originally did. Now, I can say that New Zealand First was the only party in the House, in 2016, when this bill was actually introduced, that didn\u2019t support the bill. Now, we 100 percent support the health and well-being of every single New Zealander going to work, whether it be for volunteer or other, but there was a number of unintended consequences that this bill raised. This was one of those unintended consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EIt was actually the select committee that I sat on with Mr Bayly where we had serious debates about some of these unintended consequences, and there was agreement even in select committee about some of these issues. But when we put our Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) forward to try and fix up some of these unintended consequences, we were actually shot down. Now, we\u2019re not opposing your bill for that reason, and we\u2019re not playing petty politics here, but we believe, as part of the five-year review, we need to look at a wider scope of work to tidy up some of those anomalies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s just go through this bill\u2014what this actually does. Where you\u2019ve got two identical volunteer, not-for-profit organisations\u2014and there\u2019s nearly 100,000 of these types of operations around the country\u2014but where we\u2019ve got two identical operations working next to each other, one which has 100 percent volunteer organisation, with no persons conducting a business or undertaking (PCBU), there is no legal culpability for any of the people giving their time in service to this specific industry. And there are hundreds of examples, from football clubs and rugby clubs and fishing clubs and hunting and tramping clubs, netball clubs, etc. There\u2019s a plethora of them, but an identical organisation set up right next door with the same structure\u2014with the exception that they\u2019ve got a chairperson that\u2019s got a remunerated salary, because they do all the rosters or they submit all of the council application forms; they\u2019re having a paid position. We\u2019ve got one organisation over here which, if there is any issue with health and safety, then nobody is legally culpable, but just because we\u2019ve actually put somebody with a small remunerative package, or up to 2\u00BD full-time staff, this person is legally culpable for any mishap or accident in a workplace. Now, that is an anomaly. It wasn\u2019t designed to be that way, that you could have identical situations in a volunteer situation. So in discussions with the Minister at great length as part of this review, this specific issue will come up again, and it will be looked at seriously as to how we can best tidy it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EThe other unintended consequence, which is in alignment with this one here but comes up in section 37 of the principal Act, is around PCBUs, where a PCBU is also an employee or a worker. In this situation, where you\u2019ve got a husband and wife, a de facto relationship, or a partnership in a farm\u2014and I\u2019ll use the farm as an example, because it\u2019s a great example\u2014where the husband and the wife in this situation are both a PCBU and a worker. Say the husband goes out on his quad bike, doesn\u2019t put his helmet on, and has an accident where he\u2019s seriously harmed; automatically, the wife becomes the PCBU, because he was the worker that was injured. The wife, who\u2019s still alive, the wife that is dealing with being a grieving partner, is legally culpable for that. Now, that\u2019s not the intention of the Health and Safety at Work Act. This was raised with Minister Michael Woodhouse when we were going through this. This was raised at great length with National. There are a number of these minor technical issues\u2014unintended consequences\u2014that this bill has, and to fix this up today right now leaves a whole lot of other work that still needs to be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re not turning our back on this at all. In fact, we believe that more work needs to be done, and we need to see collegiality across the House when it does come up. These are real situations, not undermining the fact that every single member in this House, every single person in this country, every worker and every volunteer in this nation wants to see our workers and our volunteers come home safely every single day. We do have an abominable record for the harm that is caused in workplaces, largely in the non-voluntary sector, but in certain sectors\u2014agriculture and forestry, etc.\u2014we need to do as much as we can, and I go back to that point. New Zealand First did not support the bill going through the House. We were the only party that didn\u2019t, not because we don\u2019t want to see safety in the workplaces but because we wanted to make this bill better than what it was. We knew that the National Party agreed with our concerns. We talked about it at great length, but when an SOP was put forward, they were shut down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EAnother unintended consequence of the current bill right now is that when it comes to very, very important personal protective equipment (PPE), we all understand that an employer should ensure that their employees have got their personal protective equipment in\u2014their PPE. But under this bill, no levy or charge can be put on the employee. Now, I agree that every single employee should have protective equipment given to them free. However, with no personal responsibility being labelled on the worker, they lose their equipment, they give their equipment away, and it is an absolute cost to a business\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a3beab3f3f9425c97eec4bfcb7c76b2\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: How is that to do with volunteers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022235a76001f3a4abeb56f95f508705359\u0022\u003ECLAYTON MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that we could tidy up. By fair wear and tear and looking at the personal protective equipment\u2014I mean, Mr Woodhouse, you\u2019ve got your head in the sand if you don\u2019t understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022422173a709b9449f9a4d8de8fdda7517\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: No, I just know what this bill says. It\u2019s got nothing to do with what you\u2019re talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206f8c37b5eb74fa9843809dfcab78923\u0022\u003ECLAYTON MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: When you talk to the businesses, this is a problem. This is\u2014I\u2019m talking exactly about why our support for this bill is not going forward. It is very important for people to understand some of the other unintended consequences that the National Party didn\u2019t pick up on when they had the opportunity to. You were playing petty politics, and we want to fix this bill up to make it a better bill, moving forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EThe submissions were exactly as we said\u2014what we wanted to hear from was those voluntary organisations. We had a small but significant amount of submissions put forward. Going through and reading those, I heard those for and I read those against. I have to say that I think some of the intent behind some of the unintended consequences of this was a little bit lost. People were diminishing and saying that people that were working inside a voluntary organisation were somehow less protected, and that\u2019s not true. The reality is that every single person in a workplace has got an absolute duty of care, a responsibility, to their own health and safety as well as that of other people. This bill didn\u2019t undermine that at all, and I think that was misconstrued. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EWhat we think is the right pathway moving forward is that at the five-year mark of this current legislation, we give it a serious review. We as a Parliament should come together to look at this objectively, to think about the well-being and welfare of people. There is a heck of a lot of bureaucratic overload put on inside this legislation and I think we can cut through some of that red tape and put genuine health and safety first. Those costs are, obviously, being put on to some of these workplaces, and some of them, dare I say it, are a little bit ridiculous. I mean, it\u2019s great if you own a scaffolding company, but I\u2019ve just built a house, and I had to have scaffolding all the way up around my house for about three months at some ridiculous cost because of the concerns over health and safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003ESo I think there is some clarity and some tidying-up of some of that bureaucratic overload, but there are just those unintended consequences. So, again, to the member Harete Hipango: for bringing this bill to the House, we thank you. It\u2019s not a lost cause. It\u2019s not a lost bill. New Zealand First is still there. We haven\u2019t changed our view on it, but we believe that more work needs to be done, because I believe this issue is larger than just this one point that has been raised. So thank you to the House for listening, and we will continue our work together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u0022225bdf1f48d34655a434912dcbc68aa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022225bdf1f48d34655a434912dcbc68aa4\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker, for the opportunity to speak on the second reading of the Health and Safety at Work (Volunteer Associations) Amendment Bill. I want to start by congratulating my colleague Harete Hipango for her bill coming to this stage, and it came to this stage because, as we have just heard from the New Zealand First member Clayton Mitchell, they supported it in the first reading. It\u2019s quite disappointing to see that they are not supporting it any more. I was actually waiting to hear a reason from that member for not supporting it any more, and the only reason I heard was exactly what the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety, the Hon Iain Lees-Galloway said, which was that they are doing a big review. The review is going to happen in 2020\u2014that\u2019s what we hear\u2014but here is an opportunity to fix this right now, because we have this bill in front of us. So why miss this opportunity and wait until 2020? I couldn\u2019t see any reasonable argument for that in that whole speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThis bill is not intended to undermine the health and safety of anybody\u2014volunteers or workers\u2014because when we passed the Health and Safety at Work Act 2015, which came into effect in April 2016, at that time we decided to exclude volunteer organisations. We decided to exclude clubs and recreational bodies, and at that time we were not saying that we were undermining the health and safety of those volunteers. No, the reason was because we knew that those volunteer organisations have a special contribution that they make to our community, and we wanted to make sure that they are able to continue to make the contribution that they make. Volunteer organisations are there to help others in the community, and we have full confidence in them to look after themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EHealth and safety rules apply to everybody\u2014yes, everybody has to take care of health and safety rules. So to say that volunteer organisations don\u2019t comply with health and safety is not acceptable. The reason for exclusion from the definition of a \u201Cperson conducting a business or undertaking\u201D is, this time, by allowing them to have somebody working for a maximum of 100 hours. Volunteer organisations allow people to participate in the community in the real sense to provide services that they really believe in and that they are passionate about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EDuring the select committee process, as we have already heard from various members, we received 34 submissions, and I heard a member saying that it was a small number of submissions. In my view, 34 submissions is a reasonable number for this very simple and pragmatic bill. Of course, we can\u2019t compare this with the End of Life Choice Bill, but if we compare this bill with other bills and compare the numbers of submissions, I think we received a reasonable number of submissions. There was a reasonable amount of interest in this bill. Twelve submitters spoke to the Education and Workforce Committee, and, as the select committee chair, I am really thankful to them for their contribution. I also want to thank all members on the committee as well for their contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThe important thing to note here is that this is to allow volunteer organisations to deliver and to be able to do what they actually are intending to do. So there are various ways they can make their services efficient, and that is what we want to do through this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EFor example, if volunteer organisations are working in the field of providing help to victims of domestic violence, they\u2019ll be out there, talking to clients and taking them to various places. It could be the Ministry of Social Development, for financial assistance, or it could be a safe house or it could be a lawyer. So they are really good at doing those things. Maybe they need somebody to do some work in their office\u2014just simple admin work. Maybe they need somebody to actually come and advise them on health and safety, for argument\u2019s sake. So the health and safety of those volunteers is important too, and maybe they are not able to find a volunteer who is able to come in and advise them on health and safety. These people are dealing with these other people that are going through some really traumatic situations and maybe they need some counselling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003ESo this would have allowed these volunteer organisations to have the ability to have someone come and work for a maximum of 100 hours to provide such services, or it could be just applying for funding, because these volunteer organisations do struggle with funding applications because they don\u2019t have the expertise and they have to apply to 50 or 20 different donors or funders to be successful\u2014to get enough money to keep going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003ESo I think the Government members need to reconsider their approach, and I challenge Government members. There is still time, because we are going through the second reading\u2014we haven\u2019t finished the second reading. So I\u2019m asking\u2014I\u2019m urging\u2014Government members to reconsider their approach, because there are 1.2 million people in our country that are contributing their time as volunteers. They\u2019ll be really grateful\u2014these 1.2 million people will be really grateful to Government members if they consider supporting them. But no, I don\u2019t see any response from Government members sitting there, and it looks like they have already decided. New Zealand First, of course, supported this bill in the first reading, and now, of course, they can\u2019t support it. We know that, because they have to vote in line with Labour and the Greens. So I think it comes down to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWhy wait until 2020? This is the opportunity. So I\u2019m urging Government members to reconsider their approach. There is still time; we are going through the second reading. It\u2019s really disappointing to see that the Government is not supporting this very important bill, and I support this bill and commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a27e7861adff44c1af6f5610e121da06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a27e7861adff44c1af6f5610e121da06\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koe to the member Harete Hipango for bringing your first member\u2019s bill. It\u2019s always a great privilege to have a member\u2019s bill before the House. We\u2019re not supporting your bill tonight, but I commend you for the work that you\u2019ve done on it and the work in the Education and Workforce Committee. I just wanted to talk a little bit about what the bill actually does\u2014it actually amends section 17 of the Health and Safety at Work Act\u2014just so that the people sitting at home listening tonight and thinking \u201CWhat the hell are they talking about?\u201D might actually get an understanding of exactly what the change is that\u2019s being proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe meaning of a PCBU\u2014I think people may have heard that used a few times tonight: it stands for \u201Ca person conducting a business or undertaking\u201D. It was introduced in the 2015 Act. Currently, there\u2019s a section which includes a definition of a volunteer association. The Health and Safety at Work Act as it stands excludes volunteer organisations that are solely run by volunteers. So that\u2019s the Act as it stands. Now, this bill before us tonight amends that section and extends that exclusion\u2014so away from just volunteer organisations that are run by volunteers\u2014to associations that employ staff for fewer than 100 hours a week. I haven\u2019t heard an explanation\u2014and I didn\u2019t sit on the select committee for the whole time that this bill was discussed; I came in at the end\u2014as to why 100 hours a week; where that came from. Was it plucked out of the air? Was it based on some sort of analysis? I\u2019d be interested for any further speakers to actually expand on that, because it is a curious number. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ESo the bill as it stands tonight before us would exempt volunteer associations that employ staff for fewer than 100 hours a week from their person conducting a business or undertaking obligations that stand under the Health and Safety at Work Act. So what are those obligations? Those obligations include not levying workers for protective equipment or requiring them to provide their own. So that means that if you\u2019re doing something that is not safe that you need protective equipment for, your employer or the association that you volunteer or work for actually is required to provide you with that. That means that they\u2019d be exempt from that, so people would have to provide their own protective equipment. The obligations include a duty to engage with workers on health and safety\u2014well, goodness, that\u2019s kind of a bit basic\u2014and a duty to ensure as far as reasonably practicable that workplaces are without health and safety risks. So could somebody tell me across the House tonight what is onerous about that, and why should there be an exemption for volunteer organisations that employ staff for fewer than 100 hours per week from those obligations? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got a couple of questions for the National Party tonight. Does this reflect the policy of the National Party? I think the Minister, earlier, when he spoke, raised the question: is this the direction that they\u2019re going in, and is this going to move into other areas, such as small business? So the former Minister in this area is actually sitting in the House, and it would be great to hear whether or not it is National Party policy and what he thinks about it, because it\u2019s not onerous. In fact, when the eight submissions that were in support of this bill\u2014which were nearly all from smaller sports and recreation clubs and smaller special-interest groups that were actually involved in things like animal welfare, etc.\u2014came to express their concern about the compliance burden arising from their obligations as PCBUs, which is, again, persons conducting a business or undertaking, they were asked to talk about actual compliance matters that they were struggling with or that directly impacted on their activities. Now, my understanding is\u2014and please correct me if I\u2019m wrong; I didn\u2019t hear those submissions personally\u2014that they struggled to say what those onerous compliance burdens actually were, and that the issue was more a perception issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe Minister mentioned this again tonight\u2014that it was a perception issue, and that it did raise some issues around what the perceptions were, but they couldn\u2019t say what their compliance issues actually were. I\u2019ve just read out to the House tonight what the obligations are: protective equipment, engaging with workers, having a safe workplace. Isn\u2019t that what we should all have in New Zealand? Isn\u2019t that what we should all aspire to? There should be no exceptions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ESo I struggle to understand what it is that is actually trying to be achieved here through this legislation, unless\u2014and this is where I\u2019ve got real concerns\u2014as a couple of the submitters have suggested, there is a second tier of health and safety that is being sought here which, essentially, creates a second tier of workers or people who are working in volunteer organisations where the standards that are expected where they work are different to other workplaces. Now, is that what we want in this country? As Minister Iain Lees-Galloway said tonight, \u201CAt this time in our history as a country, surely we do not want to be going in that direction.\u201D Not after Pike River, which should have taught all of us a fundamental lesson that we should never ever compromise on health and safety in our workplaces ever again, and that we should never ever want to dilute it in any way ever again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe Cancer Society of New Zealand talks about the devaluing of voluntary work and voluntary associations that this bill signals, and their fear is that it signals\u2014and I am desperately concerned that it signals this; and this is what I want to know from the National Party\u2014a policy shift towards a two-tier system for health and safety. I can\u2019t believe\u2014well, I hope that I can\u2019t believe\u2014that the former Minister Michael Woodhouse would ever support that. Therefore, I am perplexed as to why this bill was actually brought before the House in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis is the second bill tonight that I\u2019ve spoken on which really talks about culture. It goes to a culture change issue and the importance of a culture that is around health and safety where it becomes endemic in our country, where moving away from highest possible health and safety standards is just not tolerated. This bill moves towards a situation where it becomes tolerated for a certain sector of our workforce. We cannot tolerate that as a country. That\u2019s why we oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022acdaa141577047b3a93f9e4d7b50337d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acdaa141577047b3a93f9e4d7b50337d\u0022\u003EMARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. Thank you very much. I\u2019m pleased to take a short call. I absolutely congratulate my colleague Harete Hipango on bringing a members\u2019 bill into this House. On one level I can understand the rationale behind wanting to make it easier for volunteer organisations. The rationale put up has been that it is about making it easier, removing the heavy\u2014and what my colleague Harete Hipango sees as an overdone\u2014burden of compliance; for volunteer organisations to be exempt from health and safety in work law so that they can retain and recruit more staff, volunteers, and be able to pay volunteers, and still remain as a volunteer organisation for the purposes of that exemption under law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI have some sympathy, not so much with the rationale but the intentions behind it, because we all in this House understand the importance and the backbone of volunteer work in our community and in our country. And that has always been the case, and particularly picking up on the examples that have been used of those types of volunteer organisations that might be a focus of the member\u2019s bill, thinking of sole-charge schools, te k\u014Dhanga reo and playcentres. Even in that specific description of the types of organisations, I have alarm bells ringing. We will not be supporting a bill that removes that duty of care and that compliance, removes the importance for every worker, every volunteer to come under health and safety regulations and health and safety standards\u2014and really what my previous colleague Clare Curran indicated, which is that culture and urgency of health and safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI will even concede that the member Harete Hipango does not want to see people unsafe\u2014absolutely understand that. It is simply that this bill is not the way that we will address that perceived compliance. And I absolutely urge us all to take note of the select committee report recommendations which says instead we must provide those volunteer organisations with the training, with the knowledge, with the support to ensure compliance. What really struck me, reading through this very short bill and the report, was thinking of those volunteers who might be at risk and vulnerable with such leeway\u2014vulnerable if it is even something as simple as not being able to speak up about some safety measure that they know\u2014or that they might not even know\u2014should be there and that adds a further risk of danger or of being unsafe in the workplace in any way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI\u2019m thinking about those volunteers who\u2014and it may not at all come from bad malice intention from the volunteer organisation, but it simply would mean a lesser safety standard. And so I\u2019m thinking of those particular volunteers as well and that we actually don\u2019t end up even helping the organisation by removing, by lessening and watering down, the health and safety standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI think I wanted to pick up on\u2014I was quite confused, actually, by the term \u201Ccommunity purposes\u201D, and then it appears that advisers also said that because that is not clearly defined, it could create uncertainty in the law. So my understanding is the term \u201Ccommunity purposes\u201D has been proposed in the member\u2019s bill to be changed under the Health and Safety at Work Act, and so immediately I think I want to support the committee\u2019s flag of the possible confusion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ENow, I think it might have been my colleague Jan Tinetti who raised the issue of the submissions and that there were 34 written submissions: eight were in favour, four neutral, and 22 opposed. I think\u2014correct me if I\u2019m wrong\u2014but I think Jan Tinetti was raising that those submissions that opposed perhaps have been unfairly bagged as larger voluntary organisations who have a head start. But I think my colleague Jan Tinetti went on to highlight that that\u2019s not strictly true and wanted to bat that back. So I did pick that up, reading through this select committee report, that submitters were clear that more targeted training is what needs to happen as opposed to using a legal avenue and removing legal requirements for health and safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo the Greens are very clear: we want all workers\u2014all workers\u2014to be protected. We want that duty of care to apply for all organisations. The bill doesn\u2019t align with the Green Party policy on ensuring that all workers have the right to work in a safe and healthy workplace and that all paid employees should be covered by health and safety legislation, because we just start to tip it far too much in the wrong direction. So a short call from me tonight. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. We will be opposing this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022939a3b76a80348f3865bbbed0431dd7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022939a3b76a80348f3865bbbed0431dd7b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call\u2014five minutes. I call the Hon Alfred Ngaro.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u002281d04d0a5f6841ad9785aaf59ef6db3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281d04d0a5f6841ad9785aaf59ef6db3a\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s an honour to take a call in the second reading for my friend and colleague Harete Hipango, as we are talking about the Health and Safety at Work (Volunteer Associations) Amendment Bill. Having previously been the Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector, the sector is one that is often misunderstood and underrepresented in many different ways. There are 157 million hours per annum that are gifted to this community\u2014to this nation\u2014every single year. That\u2019s quite significant: 114,132 not-for-profit organisations and 27,900 registered charitable trusts. That\u2019s really significant. The significant point that I want to focus on in this speech, in regards to this bill, is that 90 percent of those who are part of those organisations are volunteers\u2014only 10 percent are paid staff. And the biggest challenge, and those of us who have run not-for-profit organisations know, which relates to this bill, is the challenge to get certain expertise. It could be legal, it could be accounting\u2014financial, in fact. Those are the skill sets that have the most burden on those organisations in regards to having that support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESo why does this bill becomes significant? I want to point to three reasons why. First of all, this was a bill that came from the community. There were a number of providers who said, \u201CLook, with this bill around the Health and Safety at Work Act, there was a need to understand the unintended consequences of that bill.\u201D And, in particular, it was around the person conducting a business or undertaking (PCBU), and I know that the member the Hon Clare Curran has talked about that and the PCBU. She asked the question \u201CSo where was the burden?\u201D First of all, I want to also declare that Marama Davidson was talking about the duty of care. This does not remove the duty of care. Where the burden lies, in regard to this bill, is in particular around the PCBU. It\u2019s the personal liability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ENow, for someone who\u2019s an accountant who wants to contribute maybe 10 to 15 hours to a not-for-profit organisation\u2014it could be a refuge; it could be a welfare organisation\u2014they know that they need that support. Back of office becomes critically important to the integrity of that organisation. So when they offer their services, they purely want to do it, come in, do the books, and leave. Under the current legislation, they are now liable for $300,000 under personal liability, and as an organisation the organisation is liable for $600,000. So what we are asking for is discretion here. It does not remove the duty of care of responsibility to supply those sorts of services, whether it be counselling, youth work, or social work. This is purely around the back of office support services that are critically important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EAnd that\u2019s the submission that you would have heard. Members on the opposite side talked about small organisations. It was almost demeaning those small organisations. Well, that\u2019s the point of the bill: a private member\u2019s bill is all about small changes\u2014tweaks that happen to a major piece of legislation. It\u2019s those tweaks that actually help because they come out of unintended consequences. The message that we want to send to our communities out there, who have come to us in this regard, to my good friend and colleague Harete Hipango, is about the fact that this unintended consequence will impact the service and the generosity of support that we want to give.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI want to tell the members on the other side, and those who are listening, that we now have at the moment 157 million hours, but we have a reduction over the period of the last 10 years of those who are volunteering as far as personnel. They are reducing because they\u2019re time poor; they don\u2019t have the opportunity to give as much time as they used to. However, what they will do, in the time that is available to them, is they want to be able to enter into that organisation, provide their service and their support, and be able to leave. Under this legislation at the moment, what it will currently do is put the burden of responsibility\u2014and, no, I\u2019ll just remind the member across there who\u2019s shouting\u2014the personal liability of $300,000. It\u2019s not too hard to ask that there be discretion here that would allow for those. It does not mean that they will be in situations to provide a service that could jeopardise the integrity of that organisation; it\u2019s simply to support them. That\u2019s what this bill was. We would hope that New Zealand First would see that. They supported it at the first reading to go to the select committee. When it came out of the select committee, yes, it did say that they didn\u2019t want it; however, it is only a small bill. Members\u2019 bills are only small changes\u2014tweaks\u2014to the biggest legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI just want to reiterate, and I hope that in the few hours that we have left\u2014well, we probably won\u2019t, because we won\u2019t finish the reading of this bill, but maybe this is important because it\u2019ll be given consideration over the next week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019030601d6f72b19de4547b4de98d53c38febf000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"