"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bf3d7ae5596a4a51a34b63b3a770280d\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 12 MARCH 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022486b3cf6b180495c92e4601afa123a29\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 12 MARCH 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022594dadd721ed41bb8ba2a6f3f811e505\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a3a6dd01b09244c49a4afe397258b25c\u0022\u003EAustralia\u2014Senate Committee on Regulations and Ordinances, Senator John Williams and Senator Gavin Marshall\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002266a717c206f642aca4f9bf1651598606\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266a717c206f642aca4f9bf1651598606\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that members would wish to welcome Senator John Williams and Senator Gavin Marshall from the Australian Senate Committee on Regulations and Ordinances, who are present in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c868e791c9b4c81a786985a8b333eae\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022929706e44fd944e9851098438287973a\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022630717f0fcb0418eb6e4bd87bec51423\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u002207f3c526bcf341f790ff77c6cada20ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207f3c526bcf341f790ff77c6cada20ab\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022438e93996d1345c2b4d4c81ad00b44cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022438e93996d1345c2b4d4c81ad00b44cb\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve seen a number of recent reports that highlight the solid fundamentals of the New Zealand economy as we transition to a more modern and resilient economy. Statistics New Zealand reported on Friday that the volume of building activity rose 2.7 percent in the final quarter of 2018, driven by strength in building work on non-residential buildings. The nationwide 5 percent increase in non-residential construction was the strongest quarterly figure in nearly three years, while residential construction growth of 1.2 percent in the quarter was similar to September. On an annual basis, total building work in place was up 3 percent, with residential up 2.4 percent and non-residential up 3.9 percent. Meanwhile, Statistics New Zealand also reported on Friday a 4 percent rise in meat and dairy manufacturing, led by a 2 percent overall rise in the volume of New Zealand manufacturing activity in the December quarter. I am pleased to see yet more real data demonstrating the solid underlying fundamentals of the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248a8b3e1819945299b74a80863b58474\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: What recent reports has he received from Treasury on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297ca2be411f441a3af3c781a50a98289\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Treasury\u2019s latest weekly economic update report shows a concerning trend of slowing global economic growth. In Australia, GDP figures for the December 2018 quarter show growth was lower than expected at 0.2 percent in the December quarter and lower than the 0.3 percent growth recorded in the September quarter. Likewise, both Canada and India recorded slower growth in the December quarter. Meanwhile, other reports note that in the US, GDP growth slowed for the second straight quarter, and the economy added just 20,000 jobs in February, against expectations of 180,000 new jobs. Last week, the eurozone recorded 0.2 percent growth in the December quarter and the European Central Bank downgraded its forecast for 2019 GDP growth, from 1.7 percent to 1.1 percent. Despite the more positive news out of New Zealand recently and forecasts of solid economic growth here, this data remains a risk to New Zealand\u2019s outlook.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212e8d15e674c4228b2cfeaf53bae36be\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government responding to the economic risks posed by international factors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223230e23f381648688f5e28e75da37c19\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The risks posed by the international situation continue to demonstrate the importance of our commitment to responsible fiscal management. We are continuing to manage debt at responsible levels. We are running sustainable surpluses, managing expenses carefully, and making the important investments in New Zealand\u2019s future that will leave us in a position to respond to any potential global downturn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf447ded102942c39486cfc5cfa11ac4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e76456a20c994a938fb417acaf62b395\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e76456a20c994a938fb417acaf62b395\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements, policies, and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u002250f04ff1853c44439a5033182584c3c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250f04ff1853c44439a5033182584c3c4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ce9150b362b496786e840db0711d9da\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to her statement that the Tax Working Group recommendations are about making the tax system \u201Cfairer\u201D, is it fair that every small business, farm, bach, rental property, and lifestyle block will have to be revalued at the owner\u2019s expense if a capital gains tax is introduced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227532b76333184d5ba28c6a62f5b7fb38\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member is referring to the Tax Working Group report, which the Government has received, not Government policy. The Government is currently considering the recommendations and will refer back to the public any decisions we make in April.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ee1638db90b461ea052cec474e301a8\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Has she considered what it will cost a small-business owner to have their business professionally valued?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c0e1f0efb5145ac839bf2aadfbff2ee\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: We will consider the costs and impacts on those decisions that we formally make, and in consideration of any of the decisions that we formally make, we\u2019ll factor those things in, but, as I say, no decisions have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9934e5a5c6246d2a50b2066b42a930d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that if each of New Zealand\u2019s 500,000 small businesses had to have their business revalued at $10,000 each, it would cost the wider economy $5 billion, or about as much money as a capital gains tax would raise over the first four years? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283f40e9a184443e79704474cf71b79e0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Just before the Prime Minister answers, there were at least three members not far away from the Prime Minister interjecting during that, and it will cease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022416dca42639c4c3da963a37b78b7253d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member is using hypotheticals, albeit questionable ones. Again, as I\u2019ve said, we are, as a Government, considering the Tax Working Group report, and we\u2019ve made no decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ac14561a1b74666a19414feb0fd666e\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: When a top tax expert says $10,000 is very much \u201Can entry point for pricing\u201D, what does she say the cost will be for businesses getting valuations under the proposed regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dd02a7a305a4e28b8e57bc5b76b966b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, we\u2019ll consider impacts on those areas in which we actually make a decision. The member is posing a hypothetical, and no decisions have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209703bb2da8e432e8b2add7bf6170f74\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that if each of New Zealand\u2019s 50,000 farms had to have their land revalued at $10,000 a go, it would cost the economy half a billion dollars, effectively doubling the cost of a capital gains tax for farmers over the first four years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe5a497298794b0488d6cd36215ebb82\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, a range of hypotheticals; again, I could delve into the sometimes questionable history the member has here with some of the scenarios he\u2019s presented, but, again, these are working group recommendations, none of which the Government has at this stage settled on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022767e6037b58f4ff9b714d43374256a5d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: In regard to her statement this morning that a capital gains tax should not over-complicate the tax system, does she have a preference for the valuation methods on page 32, volume II of the Tax Working Group report: \u201CActual value\u201D, \u201CArm\u2019s-length valuation\u201D, \u201CComparison with similar properties\u201D, \u201CRatings valuations\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fc64e6854a44309a0177e2a3a49482d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Come to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed980a40517e4c2ca27243dfde560876\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014well, I am\u2014\u201CInternational Financial Reporting Standards \u2026 rules\u201D, a \u201Cvolume weighted average price\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223858791a8077403f8b81483bf36c742e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member didn\u2019t; he\u2019ll resume his seat. Further supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022523d5e6cf72f43be85cfce982bbf0e9c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she have a preference as to the valuations in the Tax Working Group report out of actual value, arm\u2019s length valuation, comparison with similar properties, ratings valuations, international financial reporting standards, volume-weighted average price\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284ba3d86f35142a68c3868f6321087cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, you stopped the Leader of the Opposition because of the extended nature of his question. You gave him a serious lead as to what was wrong with it, and he\u2019s back repeating himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a505d298834b49c9b1ccd47da8fde512\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I was just going to rule it out at the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229706974344454dd4a57b2785f64a319e\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Has she given the valuation methods in the report any consideration at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4ebd90c444f4180a4b84b2b2ffc36eb\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As we\u2019ve repeatedly said in this House, we\u2019re considering the report in its entirety, and no decisions have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022239724f7efa74a52bb8b346f3f61d62d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What did the Tax Working Group recommend would happen if an asset was not valued within the five-year window, and is it possible that an asset could be registered in the system at zero dollars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ab3a4840d814894b1d7e2675247fa64\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have responsibility for the recommendations made by the Tax Working Group. Again, as we\u2019ve said, we\u2019re considering the report in its entirety, and no decisions have been made. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220704f568bec4fb7a82be09d00406cad\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I have a feeling that members want to stay here today for question time. There are two or three who are unlikely to if that sort of noise continues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d96da145b3d547ac9d224cd5c41ec1ea\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t the issue of valuations of the proposed capital gains tax at the very heart of this, the most significant tax reform in decades?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235d68dbb5bd3469fbf1b9a7a2d2b56ed\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: All of the matters that the Tax Working Group have put forward will be part of our consideration, but, again, I simply make the point that no decisions have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022570eba057e77481199571b96a3e8b6ab\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that the recommended capital gains tax will hurt a wide range of New Zealanders and not just the wealthy, given Labour list MP Ginny Andersen yesterday said, in relation to the Government\u2019s proposed capital gains tax, \u201CTo be honest, it\u2019s probably not the \u2018rich pricks\u2019; it\u2019s a whole bunch of people. It\u2019s across the board\u201D.?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b15e18ef1b343db99b8001bb0711142\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the Tax Working Group recommended a broad-based capital gains tax for consideration by this Government. We have made no decision, and when we do, we will be informing the public and giving them ample opportunity to have their input as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022301a07180b0947838866fccdbea69019\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t Ginny Andersen correct\u2014won\u2019t getting valuations and paying capital gains tax affect a whole bunch of New Zealanders, right across the board?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8fcecc794004f52b7e7978f5fe4a514\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, no final decisions have been made. I would simply make the point that, of course, a number of other countries which we compare ourselves to have successfully implemented such schemes, but, again, for us it\u2019s a matter of discussion, and when we\u2019ve made our decisions, we will inform the Opposition at the same time as we will inform everyone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022059434823c4b46c09869b6eea38a57fc\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: If it\u2019s a matter of discussion, why won\u2019t she discuss it in the most important court of debate in the land\u2014this Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ea23058d3dc4939b17a5dabe33b5b83\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: For the same reason as when that Government introduced a capital gains tax, they didn\u2019t say anything for four months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022be8e68e6a3c74715b89d070b65a7bd13\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00228a92126f72c7484ebd89cfde5457d2e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a92126f72c7484ebd89cfde5457d2e7\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in Hon Shane Jones, given that Stuff reported that he was \u201Cnamed as the proposed chairman of Manea Kupe Ltd\u201D in documents provided to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, and an email dated 16 February 2018 states Mr Jones attended a meeting at which the Manea Footsteps of Kupe project was discussed and in which his comments had reportedly made the Finance Minister comfortable after the finance Minister had raised his concern about the project?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022573c33e037644a77880fce46190f13c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022573c33e037644a77880fce46190f13c3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I have full confidence in Minister Jones\u2019 handling of the Kupe project. The Minister identified he had a conflict of interest and then managed it, based on the guidance he received. I also note the Radio New Zealand story yesterday where the trust confirmed Minister Jones was never part of the Manea project. I also understand that the comment around Minister Robertson\u2019s level of comfort is not an accurate reflection of what the Minister actually said. I understand that the Minister was referring not to the project itself but to ensuring that there were milestones accurately reflected in the roll-out, and a range of other contractual protections. So that would be a more accurate way to reflect his concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265b99d9cacfb431fb748858f67301f32\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by his statement made yesterday in relation to Shane Jones that \u201CHe knew someone involved in the project \u2026 some years ago [and] he\u2019d been told about it and [he] thought it was a good idea\u201D, when new documents released by Stuff today show that he was officially cited as their proposed chair and had helped them prepare their application for Government money under the previous Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e5b3a1de4894ac3a44b227d0fe1e3f0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, the member has noted that this has been a project around for some time and something that, obviously, members on the other side of the House will be familiar with as well. What I\u2019m reflecting is that, yes, the Minister has acknowledged right from the outset that he knew about this project, that he\u2019d advocated around this project. That was the very point of him declaring a conflict of interest. In fact, the member knows about the conflict of interest because the member himself wrote in written answers that it existed, and it was even included in the front page of a briefing document by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment that he had a conflict and should not receive papers on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b99f468d2bb3443bb866650c0e57df10\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How can she reconcile the standards she applied to Clare Curran, who covered up having a meeting and was eventually sacked from her portfolio, versus the treatment of Shane Jones, who also covered up attending a meeting\u2014the only difference being that in the case of Shane Jones, $4.6 million of taxpayer money ended up being spent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a82cff0ce84c21904cc49b6ca9ed30\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I do want to acknowledge that actually Minister Curran resigned from Cabinet. When it comes to the issue that the member has raised, of course, as I\u2019ve already pointed out, the Minister has documented this issue in his answers directly to yourself around the project. He\u2019s declared his conflict of interest. He\u2019s outlined the meetings that have been held. He even acknowledged the meeting where Minister Robertson raised issues. It\u2019s all in the answers to written questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c34f369799a48879770749bef40c096\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u002284dbd20ae342443eada52676874365bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284dbd20ae342443eada52676874365bd\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What steps are being taken to manage the measles outbreak in Canterbury?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f98d9fa8112143a5be16bc23a9797d5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f98d9fa8112143a5be16bc23a9797d5b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Vaccination is the best protection against measles, which is highly infectious and a serious disease that spreads easily from person to person. So far, there have been 25 confirmed cases of measles in Canterbury in the current outbreak. To help contain its spread, the Canterbury District Health Board (DHB) has announced an urgent vaccination campaign. I\u2019m advised that 18,000 doses of the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine are on their way and due to arrive in Canterbury in order to be available for use from tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8424f524f804d89aff9d6064f458162\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Who will be at the front of queue to receive vaccinations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022448b41046dc24da68288b24148699a73\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Those decisions are being taken by clinicians at the Canterbury DHB in consultation with experts at the Ministry of Health and Pharmac. I\u2019m advised that the priority groups are, firstly, children and young adults aged five to 28 years old who are not immunised, children 12 months to five years who have never received any doses of MMR, children and young adults aged five to 28 years old who have only received one MMR dose to date\u2014the four-year-old MMR can be brought forward to no sooner than four weeks after the previous MMR\u2014and, finally, adults aged 25 to 50 years; this group only received one dose of measles vaccine in our previous regime. Measles is highly contagious, and it is in everyone\u2019s best interest that people in these priority groups get vaccinated, both to protect themselves and the wider community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b01ff3967359445c996dc24527c844c7\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Will this urgent vaccination campaign disrupt routine MMR vaccination around the rest of New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d692856c794c455e982b7e4f82b31bde\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s important that while we deal with the outbreak in Canterbury, we continue with the usual MMR vaccine elsewhere around the country. I\u2019m advised that we have sufficient vaccine in the country, and scheduled to arrive in coming weeks, to contain the outbreak in Canterbury and to maintain the regular MMR vaccination programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b145623d979549f2872df331c7dfcaec\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00228f636495f1704cd982a9694c454940ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f636495f1704cd982a9694c454940ae\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ve read this question very carefully, particularly the words \u201CGovernment support parties\u201D. Now, with respect, that is not grammatically, historically, constitutionally, or factually correct, and to allow that sort of question to be asked invites mis-description and misrepresentation, and that should be stopped and it should be ruled out for this purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00224346f4ed879843d7a884890467c6ace2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224346f4ed879843d7a884890467c6ace2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think the member might be being just a little bit pedantic in this particular case. I think it is clear that there are three parties which support this Government on confidence and supply. They all have different positions, they\u2019ve come to it from different positions, and the question as to whether the Minister has been consulting with any of them, I think, is a reasonable question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c474e3b39e7c49e4a77d7e0ed8acf5a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c474e3b39e7c49e4a77d7e0ed8acf5a1\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to submit, having heard that: well, that\u2019s fine, excepting that we know what the constitutional arrangements are between the Labour Party and the Green Party. We know that this is a coalition of the Labour Party and New Zealand First. Any mis-description like this, 18 months after the fact of the formation of this Government, is just plain wrong, and we\u2019ll get nowhere unless the lexicon is corrected here and, dare I say it, up there in the press gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227a9894e5255d411681c88d3698d9ff24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a9894e5255d411681c88d3698d9ff24\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252fb370888534cc8981fc4a2087d7372\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member thinks he can add something, have a go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022085e96239fd144e7a3faca45d231d5b4\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you never know!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222126febaf3264caa847a33914bea4af5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245978450cd124452a9f0184837ac0d6f\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think, Mr Speaker, that the point you made was that the Government is an entity in itself\u2014the Government of New Zealand. The parties that make up and form the Government are separate parties, and as you point out, there are three, despite whatever the internal arrangements might be. And I\u2019d make the point, too, that we don\u2019t fully know what those arrangements are, because they\u2019ve never been fully released. But your position is correct; Mr Peters is wrong. The only way to express the question was to talk about the parties that support the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00220091bfddd8344a8d9ee0f52429e7dcc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220091bfddd8344a8d9ee0f52429e7dcc2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I will make it absolutely clear that there are people within this House\u2014there are people within the New Zealand First Party, the Labour Party, and the Green Party\u2014that are not part of the Government; they are backbenchers, and I think it is appropriate for consultation to occur with members supporting the Government from all parties, and therefore the question is proper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u002247ac7c364666477290a172cea6c6a8cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247ac7c364666477290a172cea6c6a8cc\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Has he had any discussions with Government support parties about including the family home in the scope of any future capital gains tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5a15a2331c8479cbe90a101fa7b4896\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5a15a2331c8479cbe90a101fa7b4896\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed44c8eaaed04326929ef410fb1befa0\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Well, has he discussed with Marama Davidson, leader of the Green Party, her reported interest in including the family home in a capital gains tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebd2f0fdcd1d47af8138cbc5495c3cdb\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b076ea353fb4df08f5fa3fec1d33460\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Does running a home-based business make someone part of the \u201Cwealthy elite\u201D that Marama Davidson said capital gains tax was about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237f6fb9f6dc14c198c498e342c5376ad\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not responsible for the views of Marama Davidson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244bfe2b13a1247f1b311cc77845ea68a\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Well, will he rule out imposing any capital gains tax on the family home just because a part of it has been used for a home office, or if the family just takes in boarders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ce5a9587f154861833ec09a62a527a2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We were very clear in the terms of reference issued to the Tax Working Group that the family home was exempt. The Tax Working Group have returned to us with their definition of \u201Cfamily home\u201D. That is among the matters that the Government is now considering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022697df873595341a7b9b1ab7b3ff89554\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: So if the Government has made up its mind enough to know it will exempt the family home, why is he hedging on whether that still applies if the family home happens to run a home-based business?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4d857acd1f746bd96ce230cec02f862\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I said in my last answer that in the terms of reference that we set for the Tax Working Group, we exempted the family home. We\u2019re now considering all the matters within the report, including the definitions that the working group have put forward. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284a6ab6fcd3a4cf981c30cd24597fa43\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does the member want to ask it, or can we just take it as read from the interjection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f966963bf2514b4cb867d315cc51cb89\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government unwilling or unable to answer basic questions about their own position, such as whether ruling the family home out of any capital gains tax includes family homes that might have a home office? It\u2019s a simple question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228119e30ab5164b788f4f29ff879caca8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We made our position clear when we set up the Tax Working Group\u2014that we would exempt the family home. The Tax Working Group has now provided a report. We are working our way through that report, just as the previous Government did when it received its Tax Working Group report in January 2010 and didn\u2019t respond until May 2010.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d534d9179af48e283c4acc3e5b03a6d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Housing and Urban Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022118223393b6b4b83a3390fe9f224a445\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022118223393b6b4b83a3390fe9f224a445\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing and Urban Development: How many times, under the KiwiBuild programme, has he approved a Crown underwrite to build houses that were already being built, and what is the total price of these underwrites?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022c183e12cc8074598be2aa40400ba13f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c183e12cc8074598be2aa40400ba13f9\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Minister of Housing and Urban Development):\u003C/span\u003E The test applied to determine whether a KiwiBuild underwrite should proceed is additionality\u2014does the proposal increase affordable supply for KiwiBuild buyers in the KiwiBuild price range? I\u2019m advised that the threshold can be met in four key ways: by getting a development under way; by bringing forward a development, or the stage of a development that is scheduled for a later time period; or by redesigning part of a development to provide for additional affordable homes, rather than a smaller number of more expensive homes. All underwrites approved by the Ministers meet this test. An underwrite has been approved while construction was under way four times. The expected net cost to the Crown of these underwrites is zero. The homes are valued at $26 million, or 4 percent of the total number of underwrites, and almost 0.5 percent of total KiwiBuild homes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022041f961228c74047a30e59421d4c74ff\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he approve a Crown underwrite to build houses in Marshland, Christchurch, in November 2018 when council records show these houses were already under construction in April 2018, seven months before he signed the Crown underwrite?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2809e65e3dd4460b5aec1b734aa3444\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d have to go back and look at the details of that particular case, but, as I\u2019ve said, the test that\u2019s applied is that of additionality, and there are a number of ways that that can be provided\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d6ad13d48574bacb99202dc2d5465b5\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Spell it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283d1505413154b529c5cf93005c9ec4d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll give the member the case of Mike Greer, who\u2019s committed to 104 homes in both Canterbury and west Auckland, and, as he himself has said in the media, the KiwiBuild underwrite has allowed him to bring forward that development more quickly than it otherwise would\u2019ve happened and include more affordable homes in the development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022970899e6edf24c09be3ed94702faf4d7\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he approve a Crown underwrite last November to build houses in Somerfield, Christchurch, when council records show the houses were built and clad last September?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7967428b3d240b59be92ef8dad8f75c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to that question is exactly the same as the one I just gave. As Mike Greer has said, it has allowed that development to come to fruition more quickly than it otherwise would\u2019ve and for more affordable homes to be included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8b2f9b179444d61a94fe069a4f83254\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why has he underwritten already built three-bedroom, one-bathroom houses in Westpark Rangiora, selling for $480,000, while Mike Greer Homes are advertising neighbouring three-bedroom houses with an extra bathroom and a larger floor plate on their own website for $20,000 less?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a40fe6390be74ea3b06da601371bc79e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: That development is bringing into the market more affordable homes than it otherwise would\u2019ve. This Government is in the business of building affordable homes, unlike what that Government did for nine years\u2014didn\u2019t build a single affordable home and denied there was a housing crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022148717f8404c4111be2b47f2e646e5f2\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the Mike Greer homes he has underwritten so far have monolithic cladding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022673805ef47044eb8b1410e904e34454f\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants to put that question down in writing, I\u2019d be happy to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1b7b165de7d4f02b9735c4a7b0a8f9e\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a council inspection report on failed monolithic cladding at 5 Te Rito Street, Christchurch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238235ece6cde4de9a75bff2ab0572c66\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that being tabled? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222788fab8caa94c3f9e80038b5af07559\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: What is the purpose of him underwriting the price that a developer gets for a house when that house has already been built and, in some cases, marketed unsuccessfully to the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223711e1cd16de4f398757c573025b2407\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member has got evidence that properties have been unsuccessfully marketed, I\u2019d be happy to receive it. But we\u2019ve made it very, very clear that in the case of the 104 homes that Mike Greer Homes is contributing, they were brought to market more quickly, he reduced his margins, and there are more affordable homes available through Mike Greer than there otherwise would\u2019ve been because of the KiwiBuild underwrite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f55da02052d4d5690fcd17e67baedae\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Trade and Export Growth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0ce3b29aa1945ad840aa08c317b9a6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0ce3b29aa1945ad840aa08c317b9a6f\u0022\u003EPRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Trade and Export Growth: What progress has been made, if any, on growing exports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f170c5411eff40b1b4c25d2ff5c56cda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f170c5411eff40b1b4c25d2ff5c56cda\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Trade and Export Growth):\u003C/span\u003E Notwithstanding volatility and rising protectionism in some offshore markets, 2018 saw strong gains for our exporters. New Zealand\u2019s goods and services exports increased 7 percent in dollar terms in the 2018 calendar year. A particular highlight was exports to China, with goods exports growing 15 percent and services exports increasing 12 percent for the first year. Two-way trade reached $30 billion for the first time. This Government is helping deliver sound economic growth, and we continue to support our exporters by broadening our trade agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffe38b58a56b4873a38f3f41830912bb\u0022\u003EPriyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: What has been the effect of the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP) agreement coming into force for New Zealand exporters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224babac03d0854534a4f1b0208293bd3d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The agreement has been in effect for just over two months, but early signs are very, very promising. The quantity of beef exports to Japan, for instance, increased 300 percent in January 2019 from a year earlier, and New Zealand butter exports to Canada jumped by over 600 percent from January 2018 to January 2019. While both of these huge increases may be somewhat inflated by exporters waiting for CPTPP to come into effect, there\u2019s no doubt it has massively helped. I look forward to New Zealand exporters and the many people they employ benefiting from the continuing opportunities that the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement delivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9230dfe57824eccb4e36d28a56241bb\u0022\u003EPriyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has been made on negotiating new free-trade agreements (FTAs)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c20a6f5b8fa404e8bcc9a1eae2ae649\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re making good progress on negotiating an FTA with the European Union as we continue to push for significant improvement in market access to the world\u2019s largest trading bloc. Despite the uncertainty around Brexit, we\u2019re poised to negotiate a comprehensive trade agreement with the UK if and when they\u2019re ready to do so. We\u2019re making good progress on the China FTA upgrade, and we hope to soon launch negotiations for an upgrade of the New Zealand - Australia ASEAN agreement. We\u2019re constructively and actively defending the system of the World Trade Organization trade rules by developing constructive proposals for reform with 12 other like-minded economies. This is a Government that continues to pursue new export opportunities, and, with the rising tide of protectionism, we need to ensure we continue to make progress for our exporters around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd1952b959fd4d76a1e967e086530abf\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: Given the statistics the Minister has just informed us of on trade with Japan, can he confirm that he\u2019s pleased he put down his Trans-Pacific Partnership protest sign and has signed a deal that was always comprehensive and progressive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216c8d1783fcb44e5be1acaced885b23b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is so \u201Cglass half empty\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c7f651956e41419ba314afda5273a99c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Regional Economic Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022aab879122a504aab9644437daad810cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aab879122a504aab9644437daad810cf\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Regional Economic Development: Does he stand by all his statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00223ff58abf92a7485baebbded98b4f123b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ff58abf92a7485baebbded98b4f123b\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Regional Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e959334b36154de4af3856ee4a24604d\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How does he stand by his statement in reply to my written question regarding Manea Footprints of Kupe project, \u201CI raised my conflict of interest with the Cabinet Office in November [2018] and indicated I would not be involved in any decision to grant funding to the project under the Provincial Growth Fund.\u201D, when it has now emerged that he provided reassurance to the Minister of Finance on the project?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b339fd08189441338f710f19efde8adc\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by the remarks that the member has recited. My attendance at the meeting provided some factual reassurance to the other Ministers, and I think that the member is making a mountain out of a molehill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e136591d5df34cc282fcde32bda99605\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Is it right that he declared a conflict of interest but not only stayed in the room but also participated in the decision making by reassuring the Minister of Finance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235d2837c373143efbcb3ca3b3e2b2e17\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: The member is distorting the facts. The member has not stayed with the true line of what happened. I attended a meeting with other Ministers. I did not influence. I did not sign off the decision. I simply did what other members on the other side of the House have done from time to time: remained in a meeting but not signing or making the decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d1c3ee6b4ca45f398730573b3b517cc\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How is providing assurances on the quality of a project\u2019s governance not advocating for a project?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d9553c4c5fa410b9b5263a5bc258446\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, after having shown excessive prudence and identifying a historical connection with personalities with that project and informing the Cabinet Office, it does not mean that I am voiceless or tongueless. I did not make the decision, after having myself indicated to other Ministers my historic conflict of interest. The interest, of course, is promoting the region of the north.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282a2e738b2de48049fe16e163a933d58\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept, given the wide connection he says he has throughout Northland, that he has to be very careful about perceived conflicts of interest while handing out $100 million to people and groups he knows in that region?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfe6674f9ee14693bcf15178934f016a\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can\u2019t unwind 59 years of a varied, wide, and rich life. And the reality is that there are a host of associations, as a senior M\u0101ori leader, that I\u2019ve had. One of those associations was with the Hokianga rangatira Whetu Ngaira and a long-term connection with a host of other identities in Hokianga. Now, whether it was excessively circumspect on my part at the time\u2014but it is what it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259dd38e3046c4405a48ce274ecca92b7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister, did he, as the Minister, ever have a formal role with a Manea/Kupe Ltd project?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b09efe8965164a9581140b7d66429ea2\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a0a61e43379413298bd84021e9c313d\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Then what was the conflict?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252895ce5dc32491dbe05a7361cc6db5d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: So what\u2019s the conflict? Go on, tell us! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a7a09a955014a138f407723ab3b86d3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u2014the pair of you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258822ff67ae14667948183bd6c548690\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Why declare\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ffe66ce9da6440b9843fbde7ca4ac55\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Go on, Billy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022115c5da48a884430959b6a115deae19d\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014a conflict of interest if it\u2019s not going\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f9cfa4f693e468381748c81d75f13ed\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The Deputy Prime Minister will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226be9b905cd5349c1bc12948b410460e4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa75d490bef74b3a9d751d1860c7645a\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister declare a conflict of interest if it\u2019s not going to make any difference to how he acts in terms of advocating for the project?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d8a772a48cf436ebd07fd42968019cc\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I think the first part of the member\u2019s question is sensible: why declare a conflict of interest? And I am interested in what the Herald had to say where it doubts whether or not I should have ever declared a conflict of interest; however, that\u2019s now historical fact, and I did attend a meeting where other Ministers were aware of the historical association that I have adverted to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f0d01785057436ea128181e300349a9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister, did he ever sign off on funding for the project?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229153d9d6aa754aa09a3a4abec8986146\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Those decisions were taken by other Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ade71269bd5d42cf86448311cdcadc78\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How can Kiwis have confidence that the $100 million he spent in Northland, a region that he knows well, he knows a lot of people; where he declares a conflict of interest but he stays in the room and advocates for the project\u2014that he has any concept of how to handle a conflict of interest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c876aea086334ac99cdc00ed70865b71\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, obviously, the point at which one identifies a substantial conflict of interest largely lies in one\u2019s own ethics; and, secondly, people know that I as a member, hailing from the North, have wide and varied associations. Just because I am willing to advocate for the provinces, the other side of the House should try to stop this character assassination because of my good work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcf86ca094bc429c9bbceecfcf0e2f95\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister, with respect to the chronology of events, was it a fact that he was in a room after the project had been signed off, not before?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dc4de9e94db4dfb8aded83fa89abff5\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, I was in the room. I was with other Ministers. I did not sign the project off. I have acknowledged in my discussions with the Prime Minister as to the appropriateness of staying in the room, out of the room, and obviously the experience that I grew up with professionally was the Institute of Directors, and I am reviewing my knowledge about the Cabinet Manual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a18bd3b589e428cb352237437cf0b13\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I thought that the member asked a very good question. It\u2019d be appreciated if the Minister actually answered whether he was in the room before or after the decision was made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1748b457adb43a7a0b396e6e0332d5d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think he said both, actually\u2014if you translate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002274ac15171f714d09a26d9c8cf3ed9ccb\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002224be3c2022e345b5983d3f8206a1625d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224be3c2022e345b5983d3f8206a1625d\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What steps has he taken to ensure sufficient doses of the measles vaccinations are available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00227012ec915bc3490794bf72aa5053351b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227012ec915bc3490794bf72aa5053351b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Measles is highly contagious, and the outbreak in Canterbury has developed swiftly in recent days. Over the weekend, I contacted the chair of the Canterbury District Health Board (DHB), seeking assurance that the DHB had a plan in place to deal with the outbreak. Following that call, I spoke again with the chair as well as the DHB chief executive. I then contacted the Director-General of Health and the chair of Pharmac to ensure a coordinated response to this outbreak. As I told the House in answer to question No. 4, I\u2019m advised that 18,000 doses of vaccine are on their way to Canterbury and will be available for use from tomorrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255380502e6854d49a65dace60a9dc69a\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: If 18,000 vaccinations are on their way, how long will the other 82,000 Cantabrians who need a vaccine or vaccine boost have to wait? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da7020c5ed4e41308273a57b8c327069\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Vaccinations are dependent upon a cold chain process\u2014which the member will, I\u2019m sure, well understand\u2014and the integrity of that process is critical. There are examples, of course, under previous Governments where that fell down. But I\u2019m assured that the vaccinations will continue to arrive in sufficient numbers that there will be more vaccinations waiting than are able to be delivered through the emergency clinics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb041997a6454c5da39e1db8b8c1124b\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: As at 31 December 2018, what percentage of 8-month-olds were fully immunised against measles, and is that a higher or lower percentage than when he became Minister? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299c1cc6c2fdf4a76bc3c4c0d3e601ba3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I think the member said 1 December 2018\u2014I have the chart in front of me, conveniently. The broader immunisation target that the member has often referred to, and I\u2019m not sure whether that\u2019s the one he wants to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210a105e40e8946a7a277a3122f133ed3\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t in my question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5a1a42d84324cd8b32eb245bb73c707\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: He wants the specific answer on measles. I don\u2019t have that specific number in front of me. I\u2019m sure that if the member puts it down, I\u2019m happy to find an answer for him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221139e970f6754a3aa028e929aa111a1a\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Well, can the Minister confirm that under the previous National Government, immunisation rates went from under 80 percent for measles to 94 percent and that the Ministry of Health announced in October 2017 that measles and rubella was \u201Cofficially eliminated in New Zealand\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c90870cf6cdd48ea962d3caba5d63d56\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the Minister has no responsibility for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d90511ddc574c0c8a40d201a44da489\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I\u2019d like to answer that. Mr Speaker? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4bf23fad93343dbbaceb1276c64501c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I\u2019ve said the Minister has no responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022072ae5dc97cb47da98880299f95c8b60\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that this outbreak could have been prevented if 19 out of the 20 district health boards hadn\u2019t failed to meet their immunisation targets on his watch? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022857a8d601cf84f68917f8f810ababf74\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: What I would like to say about the immunisation targets, firstly, is that I\u2019m a bit surprised the member is wanting to play politics at this time, when my chief concern is making sure that people get the vaccinations they need. But the second thing I would say is that since the current immunisation target was introduced in 2012 by the previous Government, it has never been met, at 95 percent; it has hovered stubbornly in the early 90s. It ticked up in the last quarter, but, as a country, we do need to do better in terms of immunisation. Those targets are available still on the ministry\u2019s website for anybody who cares to pick them up, but if the member is somehow trying to suggest that there is any link between the decision to stop publishing the previous Government\u2019s narrow health targets in the newspaper and the current measles outbreak in Canterbury, I reject that utterly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ca98463225d4eb99e683db6c36a151b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u002278b3f0aad2b147c29adc4104902853a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278b3f0aad2b147c29adc4104902853a9\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements, policies, and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00224b63c165d9034adfba05b39f752685f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b63c165d9034adfba05b39f752685f2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e92bd43df7e4b70b39be18df92e3541\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister says she wants to bring kindness back to Government, does that extend to animals forced to perform in rodeos who are scared, hurt, and killed for entertainment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de0c2aa1f74e4f02a6d8fcef78fc6026\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I am concerned to have read and heard about the death of several animals that have occurred this season. I have, in fact, raised this issue directly with the responsible Minister. He\u2019s advised me that the Ministry for Primary Industries is looking into the deaths that have occurred, and I intend to continue to stay in contact with him on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227910a041673d459b81f097e91398de4b\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Does the Prime Minister agree with the position to ban the use of animals under 12 months old and the use of flank straps, as called for by former Labour Party leader Andrew Little in 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bcaea946e444185b5c8051f84a0f0c2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Actually, the Labour Party\u2019s position was one of the reasons why the then Minister Meka Whaitiri fast-tracked some of the work that went to the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee (NAWAC). I believe that happened in March of last year. They reported back in October. They\u2019ve reported that some areas of concern are already covered by a range of protocols, but they also made some recommendations around industry-led non-regulatory improvements. To be honest with the member, I\u2019d be really interested, in the aftermath of this season, in hearing the feedback from the advisory committee and their reflection on what has happened over the past season.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de4c3c9071ab46c487a80b6834c2616f\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: So no more animals die, will the Prime Minister support my member\u2019s bill that outlaws the worst rodeo practices as identified by NAWAC and as was the very position of the Labour Party advocating before the last election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206f601f5ca094eaf9c209fd21d3a1b2c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and as I\u2019ve said, that was one of the reasons why the then Minister did ask the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee to look into those very specific issues. Again, they reported back, and they\u2019ve sat down with the industry. I would actually like to hear from the committee again. They are our experts that provide that advice. They have been working alongside industry, and I do want to hear their reflections on the last season.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e5bef144f6b4938918d155709f0a81c\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Given that these animals can\u2019t consent, they can\u2019t complain, and they\u2019re actually being killed for entertainment, will the Prime Minister commit to re-establishing a specific Minister for animal welfare?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a917b6c5d69d4f07bc6c57cc66863116\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Look, that\u2019s obviously something that has existed within this term of Government, and I wouldn\u2019t rule that out. I do have to say that, actually, the ongoing role of the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee is one of the most, probably, important features that we have within our system. We have to make sure that we have great representation there, that they\u2019re feeding into the Government on a regular basis, and that they have that oversight of industry, and I just want to hear back from them after this season. But I wouldn\u2019t rule out bringing back that portfolio, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002266dc453af3f440c7af97d492e9f1fe12\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Agriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u002221563fa130b946f0b40b0bc36be944ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221563fa130b946f0b40b0bc36be944ba\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: Does he stand by all of his statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002246d8a602d74a4850b57753b4418929bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246d8a602d74a4850b57753b4418929bc\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister of Forestry)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture: On behalf of the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243479be7693f4bcc9aae2dfa44fa25a4\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement to the New Zealand Herald over the weekend in reference to the Tax Working Group, and I\u2019ll quote, \u201CI\u2019ve not had an opportunity to read the whole report\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251510e95a78c419a9947aeb860b6cca6\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, he reflected that he is aware of the content of the report but has not gone bookend to bookend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba09baf9b2f448c19188edf11a3cee52\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: What official advice has he received to back up the statement he made on Rural Exchange on Sunday in reference to the Tax Working Group report, and I\u2019ll quote, \u201CIt probably won\u2019t affect the vast majority of farmers.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa4b85cd4def4bafaa0defc4051dd5c6\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, the Minister is incredibly accurate. At this stage, it remains a bunch of recommendations offered by Dr Cullen and his grandees, and until such time when Cabinet makes a decision, the Minister\u2019s statements are entirely accurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fa6f94568704dcaaa483fb3baa736df\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Has he read recommendation 11, which \u201Crecommends introducing input-based tax instruments, including on fertiliser,\u201D; if so, what position does he take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2831d02d4e44f77ba5a2acf9a1fa2e2\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, yes, the Minister and other Cabinet Ministers are aware of that recommendation, which is why it\u2019s out there in the ether. Until such time when Cabinet deliberates and forms a position, it remains a part of the broader atmosphere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022256341788bc342b7975fdd40fc3f2467\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: What does he believe a natural capital enhancement tax to be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b89ba8bd9dad4db784c08a1af5bc5503\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, as I said, obviously the member is referring to either the recommendations or the content of Dr Cullen\u2019s report\u2014something which is not the business, or the Cabinet-mandated business, of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a792003b707a462793fa3eb1c2f9b67c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Small Business\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022327c6ded156149fcba64c68f06c1edce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022327c6ded156149fcba64c68f06c1edce\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Small Business: Does he stand by all his statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00227f392c06b8a646818f6d89d234a3e5fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f392c06b8a646818f6d89d234a3e5fd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Economic Development)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Small Business: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022489073e527bc45b1b298651af4b94814\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Then is the Minister saying he didn\u2019t receive an email from a small-business owner on Thursday morning before question time, on the capital gains tax, which said, \u201CA capital gains tax on the sale of a small business could be particularly devastating to small-business owners, who remain the backbone of the New Zealand economy.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1cee1574e614455b4fafca474d588cb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was not the member\u2019s question last week. I, of course, receive correspondence as the revenue Minister. The member needs to better understand the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272e96521131a49c880190e6219960932\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in that case you should have said you were speaking on behalf of the Minister, if you\u2019re such a clever fellow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e68d56bece74238b9699a5179571c90\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, come on\u2014which of you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208307da8920244cb8005bb7e998d1c5a\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Does he also recall hearing from a small-business owner who said, \u201CNot only do you not listen to us; you and your party don\u2019t seem to value the contribution we make to New Zealand\u2019s economy.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fb799a81507424d8577e626cfac0f9b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I haven\u2019t seen that particular statement, but I do know that small-business owners are predominantly middle-income earners. I do know that they do better under Labour-led Governments because economic growth under Labour coalitions is, on average, since World War II, higher than growth under National-led Governments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241215c7591284fb7af8db64045253b42\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Is he, then, concerned about the impact of a capital gains tax on a small business?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b07ae4c5333948ab8a969c9e201bd224\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s settled economic theory that distortions in the tax system which encourage speculation instead of investment in productive businesses, including small businesses, hinder productive economic outcome. But any hypothetical changes to the tax system are subject to both coalition discussions and wider consultation, and no decisions have been made. It pains the member to know that economic growth for small businesses is higher under Labour coalitions than under National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ae11704fea24ca89bc6dcd59227d14c\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Has he been alerted to any negative impacts on small business in the many emails he has received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250776aef60ca49018f1b0f5ae018f35e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I\u2019m advised that the emails that he has received as Minister of Revenue include a range of perspectives; many of them know that Labour delivers higher growth rates for the economy than National coalitions have done, on average, since World War II. It is a long-term record of failure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022096a7510061344be804330bc34248eee\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister didn\u2019t address my question. I asked: had he been alerted to any negative impacts on small business\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208dc150897a44b83ad7be6333e2c9788\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will ask the Minister to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4d6f9c8782a42fb93141ad45338b8c5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I actually said I hadn\u2019t read that particular piece of correspondence on behalf of the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3b17b0457be4f4487cda34d9a493998\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it was a question of \u201Cany\u201D, and the member better answer on behalf of the Minister again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227865f1d191cd4975927adef469b74d5c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, acting on his behalf, I have not read any correspondence that has been negative in the way the member suggests, and I am aware that since World War II, economic growth rates under Labour have averaged higher than under National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022479b64fe85734eafacf551b1c1d57a4b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, OK. That\u2019s getting to the point of tedious repetition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022222c93963f64497e9c7a039ca81e5b5c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, sir\u2014so had the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd2de69e275c471b9b5fac32415071a7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Parker will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283fdb351db32480b921a583c63a1f238\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260f2a75bbed84858b2f0599a69bcb2a8\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister confirming, then\u2014does he stand by his statement just now that he has received no correspondence from small-business owners on any negative impacts of a capital gains tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022777e4e6f4a0a4e98933183bac277d31d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This line of questioning goes something like this: about impacts being received\u2014or notice of impacts being received by the Government. Now, the fact is we all know that on 21 February, the report was put out to the public of this country for consultation. There cannot have been any impacts\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221227b953f0874c90a8a3397315fbc378\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: He doesn\u2019t like it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022156b09c568ec46988ded2d91d422f659\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and won\u2019t be any until a decision is made on the tax, and that member should be stopped from just wasting this House\u2019s time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220491a72bd1f74d2eb9a9b75e5b14ba44\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I\u2019ve got about four things to deal with now. The first is that the Hon Simon Bridges should know that when a point of order is being made\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226032780c04fd42cead7055b6eb8d4138\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: It was frivolous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ebc305cd3946cda1dd07f13e9161b8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very, very tempted\u2014when I\u2019m reprimanding the member, he will be silent, he will not interject, and he will not reflect on the ruling that I\u2019m making. I\u2019m very tempted\u2014other than the fact that there\u2019s a matter of some interest to him coming up\u2014he\u2019s very lucky not to be tossed and, given his recent record, not to be named. He will stand, withdraw, and apologise twice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7a6a9ccbcd64a1eb0954fc474f31492\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My submission: the point made by the Rt Hon Winston Peters was both frivolous and likely to bring the House into disrepute and disorder. He was using it as a thinly veiled attack on the Opposition. It was clearly a debating point. He\u2019s been here a very long time. He should know all that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b895598df9b47498d510e1111946a60\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the member has been here now about a decade and should know that that was a very reasonable response to the point of order. If he\u2019d made it standing up after the right honourable gentleman had finished, it would have had a lot more credibility rather than from his seat by way of interjection. I\u2019m not going to deal with the matter that Winston Peters raised. I am going to ask Jacqui Dean to ask her question again to remind me of the reason why I was going to rule it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a5dbc0557e34e4b8a2d4f2e60b44367\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister now confirming that, as he just told the House, he has received no negative feedback\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226532500c65c74850a560871eed3d8571\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I remember now. The member will resume her seat. That\u2019s not what the Minister told the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adab4769335b42bea0ee112853d285af\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Did the informal briefing he received from the revenue Minister include any mention of receiving any negative impacts of the capital gains tax on small business?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022350719fc926d41c8a9bf0a92cbe1da7d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Small Business, I don\u2019t know the answer to that question. If she wants to put down an answer in writing, I\u2019m sure it can be answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228346c01dcd744c1284bf066e8b081060\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Even a question in writing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002238edefd154dc4ea1a8cfb986d0a88a8a\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc6410b059cc462795038aa694805bc6\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u2014Provincial Growth Fund, Conflict of Interest\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00229981694c6a8b44fd8591cfe6767a4045\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229981694c6a8b44fd8591cfe6767a4045\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve received a letter from the Hon Paul Goldsmith seeking to debate under Standing Order 389 the involvement of the Hon Shane Jones in a decision to fund a project in which he had identified a conflict of interest. This is a particular case of recent occurrence involving ministerial responsibility. It is very important that the public has confidence in the conduct of Ministers and, to this end, that any conflicts of interest they have are well managed. Answering for the management of such conflicts is at the core of executive accountability to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIn considering this application, I took account of the fact that Mr Jones identified the conflict of interest in the project funding application, gave undertakings including to this House that he would not and had not been involved in meetings that involved decisions on the project, but did in fact participate in a meeting about the application. At that meeting he reportedly gave an assurance about the governance of the project. I make no judgment about whether that assurance influenced the decision of other Ministers. In making this decision, I\u2019m applying as precedent the decision of my predecessor, the Rt Hon David Carter, on the application by Grant Robertson exactly five years ago today. Having carefully considered the application, I have decided to allow the debate. I therefore call on the Hon Paul Goldsmith to move that this House take note of an urgent matter of public importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022590952be632943c4bf86a8f7091f8062\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022590952be632943c4bf86a8f7091f8062\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo, here we have Shane Jones saying it\u2019s all a beat-up. He\u2019s like Mr Schultz: \u201CI see nothing. I see nothing. I went into the room. I was part of the debate. I gave reassurances to the Minister of Finance. But I had my fingers in my ears and I didn\u2019t hear a word I was saying.\u201D That\u2019s the approach that he is taking. He cannot seem to fathom the basic idea that if he is given responsibility for spending $3 billion of taxpayers\u2019 money around the country, including $100 million in the Northland electorate\u2014where he is based; where he claims to know everybody, to have deep connections across the community\u2014he should be absolutely focused on ensuring that there is no perceived conflict of interest in the way that he hands out that money. What we\u2019ve seen in that response\u2014in his answers today in the House and in the press\u2014is he has no concept of what a conflict of interest actually is and how to manage it, and that is why it is important that this House considers this fully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s go back, by way of background, to what we\u2019re talking about here. So in November 2007, Shane Jones declared a conflict of interest with the Cabinet Office relating to a proposed cultural centre in \u014Cp\u014Dnoni, called Manea Footprints of Kupe. The nature of the conflict wasn\u2019t publicly disclosed at the time. We weren\u2019t quite sure what it was. So what is this project? It\u2019s a proposed cultural centre and museum in \u014Cp\u014Dnoni, north of Auckland, to tell stories about the M\u0101ori ancestors of Northland. It\u2019s a worthwhile thing, wonderful to see. A charitable limited liability company, Manea Footprints of Kupe Ltd, was established to own and run the centre, and that company is owned by Te Hua O Te Kawariki Trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, following this, on 23 February 2018, that project received $4.6 million of funding from the Provincial Growth Fund. Now, when we asked the Minister a question in the House on 5 April about it, Minister Jones stated that he had delegated responsibility to Minister Davis where the project was concerned, but written questions further confirmed that Minister Jones had withdrawn fully from the decision-making process, and he further stated he had not attended any meeting at any point in relation to the project. Then, in reply to the question which I quoted into the House, he said, \u201CI raised my conflict of interest with the Cabinet Office in November 2018 and indicated I would not be involved in any decision to grant funding to the project under the Provincial Growth Fund.\u201D Well\u2014and then to our great shock and surprise and horror, we discovered, in Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) documents released to the Sunday Star-Times this weekend, that Minister Jones had indeed attended a meeting relating to the project, and he had reassured Minister Robertson, the Minister of Finance, and the other Ministers on matters relating to the project, to the point that the funding was approved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, obviously, this doesn\u2019t align with the answer that he\u2019s given. We don\u2019t know the details of the conflict and we don\u2019t know the extent to which the Minister was involved in the funding decisions, and just saying that \u201CI didn\u2019t sign the document and hand over the money\u201D is no answer. Being in the room\u2014it is a reasonable question to assume that if the Minister wasn\u2019t there and hadn\u2019t given the reassurances to the Minister of Finance and the others in the room, that the project wouldn\u2019t have got the funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhat would have happened if he hadn\u2019t have been there? The likelihood is that\u2014the briefing from Treasury and the advice from Treasury was not to fund it because it didn\u2019t stack up for a whole host of reasons. So if he wasn\u2019t in the room, providing that reassurance, it probably wouldn\u2019t have been funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228210fbce21294e8588f07f7109586742\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: Stop guessing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217a988e663c4483d809ea448dc967f95\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we don\u2019t know, and it will be interesting to know. But the point is: he was there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cc022da30e746b88748b263b6d3fd90\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re making it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eab95828da84b32a9746c110fe3cec7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: So there are two key issues here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cb07b91a996489d8d21eb6b5df212b6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume his seat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243edf72daf4f479091e8dedcbfa143b0\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcbf39f43d934a8bb106d344a314fa4d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member will do it when I sit down and he will do it clearly, and it\u2019s a ruling that I want to reinforce to members in the House. Members cannot use that expression. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203734dc6fec94f66a0d84d21a570df59\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ffd5fdaa06d42d7a44e3c2db8501a85\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. So, there are two key issues that I wanted to traverse this afternoon. One is the nature of conflicts of interests and how Mr Jones manages the perceived or actual conflicts of interests in doling out $3 billion, especially $100 million in Northland, where, as he\u2019s said so many times, he has deep connections, knows everybody, and also has political goals. How does he do that while maintaining the confidence of New Zealanders that he is not acting in a way that is conflicted? Secondly, the second issue is about his truthfulness to this Parliament when he answers a question saying he wasn\u2019t involved, wasn\u2019t there, and we find out that he was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s go through the first. Ministers should always, of course, be careful when they\u2019re spending taxpayers\u2019 money. When you\u2019re spending $3 billion you have a great burden of responsibility on your shoulders that you\u2019re going to spend that money wisely. But the first burden that you have is that you\u2019re going to spend it more usefully than the people of New Zealand would have spent it themselves, if they had not had that money taken from them in the first place. So he has a burden of responsibility to ensure that it\u2019s going to be spent wisely. He said that four or five years ago he once met the chief of Waimamaku, Whet\u016B Naera, and he has since died. That is his explanation for the conflict of interest that we are supposed to be talking about here, and that\u2019s what the Prime Minister explained as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo an interesting question that I\u2019d love to hear some more detail from the Minister himself is: well, is that the extent of his conflict of interest? Because we don\u2019t know. We know that there was a meeting in the \u014Cp\u014Dnoni pub, where the whole thing was discussed. That was back three or four years ago, and we\u2019d be interested to know who was there. Was it any of the people that have subsequently become directors of the company that will now run the Manea Footprints of Kupe museum or institution that will be established? Two of them are very well-known. We know, for example, that Anton Haagh, the co-owner of the Duke of Marlborough, is now one of the directors. Was he at that meeting at the \u014Cp\u014Dnoni pub? I don\u2019t know. Or Shane Lloyd, the owner through a trust of the land that was sold for the project and now also a director of Manea Footprints of Kupe Ltd\u2014was he also at the \u014Cp\u014Dnoni pub meeting? I don\u2019t know. We need to get to the bottom of the extent to which the nature of the Minister\u2019s conflict is fully understood. So we want to get to the bottom of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhat exactly was his involvement in the formation of the project? He says that it\u2019s all been made up by Wayne Hutchinson, presumably when he wrote to MBIE in January 2015 saying, \u201CTe Hua O Te Kawariki trustees and the proposed directors of Manea Footprints of Kupe Ltd, under the chairmanship of Hon Shane Jones, have met and discussed the funding application over the Christmas period giving guidance to your response to your letter on 22 December 2014.\u201D So in black and white, Wayne Hutchinson, who is now also, I believe, a director of the company, has said that they all met, they all got together, Shane Jones was the chair, and \u201CWe discussed the funding application and we\u2019ve worked away on it.\u201D So Shane Jones says that Wayne Hutchinson was wrong, presumably, in saying that. He\u2019d misunderstood and he\u2019s likened himself to Sonny Bill Williams\u2014as being so famous that everybody wants to have him involved. Well, let\u2019s find out about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut what is his exact involvement in the formation of this project, and who does he know, and how is he connected to it\u2014these are the questions, so that we can get a full understanding of why, indeed. He seems genuinely confused in the House. He seemed genuinely confused at question time as to why on earth he declared this conflict of interest. He seems to think that there isn\u2019t actually one; he\u2019s not sure: \u201CIs there a conflict? I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t know what all the fuss is about.\u201D So that\u2019s a legitimate question for us to get to the bottom of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t sort of imply that any of the other people involved are doing anything improper in any way, shape, or form. I\u2019m sure they\u2019re all publicly minded people, but it is a question of perception, and it comes to others. The Provincial Growth Fund has also handed out millions of dollars\u2014$6 million to Ng\u0101ti Hine\u2019s forestry works. The ones that weren\u2019t mulched are still going to be owned by that Ng\u0101ti Hine trust, and the acting CEO of that trust is none other than Pita Paraone, a former New Zealand First MP and on their list. Now, again, I\u2019m sure he\u2019s got the best motivations of heart and he\u2019s doing a great job, and I don\u2019t have any complaints about his efforts, but it\u2019s about perceptions. How is this money being spent, and how is the Minister managing perceptions around conflicts of interest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAgain, we can think of the roundabout: there are roundabouts just down the road from Shane Jones, the $11 million roundabout. Now, there are roundabouts all around the country; there\u2019s a country full of worthy roundabout projects. I\u2019ve been to many of them. I go around a roundabout just about every day myself, in Greenlane, and I\u2019m sure it could be better. So if the whole country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a6c9252e8464fcc9b1e46c4d00d1627\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I feel like the member\u2019s on a roundabout now. I think it would be good to get back to the matter which he put before the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b413849eca374fde93682a693c64b649\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The point I was making about the roundabout was that the nature of spending $100 million of taxpayers\u2019 money in one region\u2014the Northland region, where the Minister says he has deep connections throughout the community\u2014is a challenging matter in terms of maintaining integrity in the system and Kiwis\u2019 belief in the robustness and appropriateness of that spending. That is the point that the Minister doesn\u2019t seem to be able to grasp, when he thinks it\u2019s all a beat-up and he doesn\u2019t really know why\u2014he indicated that\u2014he should be making some kind of reference to a conflict of interest. So how we manage the conflict of interest is a question. There are serious questions to answer, and we need to know how he\u2019s actually going to manage those conflicts going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe other point is in relation to political ambitions, and that\u2019s slightly unrelated, but he has made no bones about the fact that he\u2019s interested in winning the seat\u2014and good luck to him on that score\u2014but when you talk about spending\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fef89d7ba2844b4a85551f81b1da3df7\u0022\u003EMatt King\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t like the way he does it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a51c9530071c419b9875eac1e5c0c1dc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Mr King can have a call later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264cdf738e22348999d04f1c717f49243\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014$100 million in a particular region, then, again, you have to be able to justify that this is what we\u2019re getting. So the first point is: what is the nature of the conflict of interest exactly, and why did he think that it\u2019s appropriate to be in the room, part of the discussion, reassuring, and, essentially, advocating for the project, having made that conflict of interest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, secondly: why was he so misleading in his answers to Parliament? I\u2019m sure he might come up with some sort of explanation, but it\u2019s very difficult to explain how you can say, \u201CI raised the conflict of interest, and indicated I would not be involved in any decision to grant funding to the project\u201D. Now, we took him at his word when he made that response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db0a95e39a07457eb6aff7b0a53f09fd\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was just reflecting, for a moment, on the comment the member just made about deliberately misleading the Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204e96432e7074f59a2fd0294217316c3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t think he did say \u201Cdeliberately\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257271245e51a4915b4f0785ded315d9b\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he said the Minister had given answers to the Parliament that were misleading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022342661a0dc0545d29bee655fff288148\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, and that\u2019s different. It\u2019s a question of deliberately or accidentally, and it is quite an important question. If the member had said \u201Cdeliberately misleading\u201D, I would have pulled him up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef37b795baa94e2b880260dd6cae0797\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: There you go. So he was misleading, and the question that we have that he has to answer is: what was going on in his mind when that misleading answer came through to me, in response to my trying to understand his involvement in this case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe final point I wanted to make is the way that the Minister has conducted himself throughout this whole process, because he has been prepared to answer trickily and \u201Cslipperyly\u201D in the way that he\u2019s responded to what his involvement was. So the slow trickle of detail coming out of MBIE\u2014and it has been slow, and it has taken an enormous amount of work from my office. We get abused on a regular basis by Shane Jones for asking too many questions. Well, this is what happens when you finally start to put the pressure on for people to be actually open and transparent: eventually, the details come out, and they point out where the Minister has not been full in his explanation and open and transparent about how he\u2019s been engaging in this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut the other way that he\u2019s responded, of course, is to go out on full attack with the media. I don\u2019t know why he thinks it\u2019s appropriate to go around attacking journalists and calling a well-respected journalist, Hamish Rutherford, a \u201Cbunny boiler\u201D. I\u2019m not quite sure what he\u2019s referring to, but it\u2019s a shocking way to talk about people who are trying to ask basic questions. The only assumption that you can draw from that kind of response from the Minister is that he\u2019s trying to intimidate and bully the press gallery, as he tries to intimidate my office and me, in terms of asking questions to try and get us off the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7bf0582bd3a48b9b0150ba8a3a4df90\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member will resume his seat. The member is making a serious accusation of a breach of privilege. He is not raising it in the proper way. Any attempt to intimidate a member with regard to questions is a clear breach of privilege and it is to be raised properly at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260d9bbe5347a4d4fa1d1f92292f583ef\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps that was not quite the right word then. Bullying is another word, I suppose, and if you\u2019re always saying \u201CDon\u2019t trouble me and irritate me by asking all these questions.\u201D, then the clear message is to shove off. That has been the approach that he has taken with the media. To go\u2014in such a personal way\u2014attacking a member of the media over them just doing their job, trying to ask some basic questions around conflicts of interest, and calling them a \u201Cbunny boiler\u201D, I think, is a new low for New Zealand politics, frankly. So this Minister has a lot of explaining to do. He needs to take it seriously, and the broader point is that he needs to take the basic issues around conflicts of interest, particularly in Northland, much, much more seriously than he is at the moment. Only time will tell whether he comes up with some reasonable explanations, but he hasn\u2019t shown a good start to it today in the House. Rest assured, we\u2019ll be asking more questions over this week to come. Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd878dc90e824e7392709169009f02eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd878dc90e824e7392709169009f02eb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Labour Party to respond to the issue that is under debate. The subject matter of the funding application was for a cultural heritage and education centre named Manea Footprints of Kupe, to be sited in \u014Cp\u014Dnoni on the banks of the Hokianga estuary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe background to that, which the Minister, the Hon Shane Jones, has already stated to the media, is that some period earlier he knew some of the people who were in support of that proposal and, not because he was conflicted because of having a personal financial interest or a family interest in it, he chose to contact the Cabinet Office because he knew particularly well one of the deceased proponents of the scheme but he was uncertain as to how he should deal with that association. He contacted the Cabinet Office, and the Cabinet Office, effectively, didn\u2019t tell him he must declare a conflict of interest, but said, \u201CLook, if you\u2019re feeling uncomfortable about this, maybe you want to.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve got to say that if this is the test for a conflict of interest, then I think lots of people in this House, including me and the Hon Nick Smith, breached that standard in respect of the Waimea dam. We were aware of that, we knew proponents for it, we advocated for it in Government and in Opposition, and, actually, we both took part in the decision in respect of the funding of the Waimea dam.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut the Hon Shane Jones, in part because he has been under attack and he\u2019s been concerned to protect the reputation of the Provincial Growth Fund against accusations of self-interest, decided that he didn\u2019t want to partake in the decision-making process for this particular application. Now, I was one of the decision-making Ministers, and I have before me\u2014and, at the end of this, I will table it\u2014the document that came to me. It somewhat surprisingly bears the date of 8 April, because it came to me on 31 January, when it was signed out by officials from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), from the Provincial Growth Fund, who forwarded me the briefing on the issue of whether there should be an investment in the Manea Footprints of Kupe, and that\u2019s proven by the signature of the official from MBIE, dated 30 January 2018.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe meeting that the member, the Hon Paul Goldsmith, complains of was after I\u2019d actually already approved the investment. My approval of the investment was on 7 February 2018, where I agreed to approve the proposal for funding of up to $4,600,000 for the Manea Footprints of Kupe Cultural Heritage and Education Centre from Vote Business, Science and Innovation\u2019s Regional Growth Initiatives\u2019 multi-year appropriation. So the idea that there\u2019s somehow some terrible influence on Ministers in respect of this issue\u2014even if there were a conflict, and, to be perfectly honest, I don\u2019t think that there was a conflict of interest here, but let\u2019s just assume, for argument\u2019s sake, that there really was a real conflict, I certainly wasn\u2019t influenced by the Hon Shane Jones\u2019 comments at a later meeting, because I\u2019d already taken my decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI do make the point that we need to be a little bit careful here that we don\u2019t become unrealistic as to what amounts to a conflict of interest. I can understand why the member Shane Jones didn\u2019t want to become involved, because I think he had a feeling of some loyalty to the deceased man who had been one of the people behind this. Now, I know the Hon Shane Jones\u2019 motivation in respect of the Provincial Growth Fund, and I know why he has argued for it to concentrate its efforts in three regions in New Zealand that, for slightly different reasons, have been on hard times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere are three regions in New Zealand where the Provincial Growth Fund focuses its investment efforts. I\u2019m raising this because the Hon Paul Goldsmith has made assertions that there is undue investment into the North because of the private interest or the political interest of the Hon Shane Jones. Now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7e42c6fb9dc4ce68fc5818abd9c1e06\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267b93bd3ab7b498fb96ecd3273b8468f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there we go again; the Hon Gerry Brownlee says that. Now, I don\u2019t know how the National Party can be blind to the fact that the Far North is bedevilled by the highest rate of violence in New Zealand, probably the highest rate of intergenerational welfare dependency, and probably the highest rate of imprisonment of any populations in New Zealand. The other area that\u2019s bedevilled with that particular curse is, actually, the Tai R\u0101whiti region, the region around the East Coast. These are two of the three surge regions for the Provincial Growth Fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, what do you do if you\u2019re trying to overcome a disadvantaged part of New Zealand and you just want to break with the neo-liberal tradition that we\u2019ve had for 20 or 30 years? Actually, you focus a bit of attention on the region. Now, the level of sophistication of what\u2019s going in in the North, I would suggest to the House and to those that are listening, is quite high. We\u2019re supporting not just burgeoning tourism\u2014that\u2019s what this addresses. There is, no doubt, an untapped tourism potential in the North. The more wealthy parts of New Zealand already get more tourism than some of the less wealthy parts. The Far North is one of the most interesting and beautiful and culturally diverse parts of the country, and yet it\u2019s under-serviced by tourism infrastructure, and that\u2019s what this project was intended to address by effectively creating a destination somewhere between, you know, T\u0101ne M\u0101huta\u2014the great kauri forest as you head up towards the Hokianga\u2014and then as you head further north up to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022518f92c6962c42e784c9ccbf89656e2b\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e10126b64f84c2e961fffbaa34ad5ae\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member says, \u201CThat\u2019s not the point.\u201D Actually, it is the point of the fund. In respect of the point that the member raises as to somehow misleading either members of Parliament or people who were involved in the approval of this venture, he\u2019s just got it wrong. If he wants me to quote further from the paper that I\u2019ve just quoted, that I signed on 7 February\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205eac22cc7004018b8093eb2b8d42004\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t he leave the room?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f03c10b829346c69fa68968c0e049d8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in advance of the meeting that you complain of, Mr Brownlee\u2014recommendation A was that I note that the Minister for Regional Economic Development has declared a conflict of interest and will not receive this proposal for consideration. So I (1) defend the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262851156eac74e9e8da4e0a69f35ae4e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Why was he in the room?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ffa04f92f3748b48aa124a0f1a229f9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member was in the room because we were having a broader discussion about how we were going to make the initial announcements for investments through the Provincial Growth Fund and other approvals that he was interested in. As he has said, and as the Prime Minister has said, given that he did declare a conflict of interest, it probably would have been less controversial if he had stepped outside the room. But I can assure the House, and those who are listening, that that made absolutely no difference to the outcome on this particular application as far as I was concerned, because I had already approved it. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002242be8d39a89345218a77f6141f0c637d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242be8d39a89345218a77f6141f0c637d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call in this debate to clarify two or three main points. The first of those is that the process for deciding upon projects within the Provincial Growth Fund over the $1 million mark involves a group of Ministers assessing those projects and then making final decisions on them. In the case of this particular project, that is the subject of today\u2019s urgent debate on the Manea Footprints of Kupe, it is quite clear that the Hon Shane Jones had no decision-making role\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc88545cbab3467db659a8874282b642\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec0ab32c6751410b99e42015611244a0\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is the critical element. Mr Goldsmith says, \u201CRubbish.\u201D With respect, Mr Goldsmith, the Ministers who made the decision know the answer to that question. Minister Jones was not a decision maker on that project. His role in the decision making was taken by the Hon Kelvin Davis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe second clear point that I want to make is that the Cabinet Office give advice to Ministers on the question of conflicts of interest. Just declaring a conflict of interest doesn\u2019t mean that there is a single, blanket response to how to manage that conflict of interest. Conflicts of interest can be managed in a number of different ways. He went along with the advice that he was given. So the management of a conflict of interest does not require a specific and particular outcome. In this case, Mr Jones acknowledged that conflict of interest, it was known to Ministers who were making the decision, and he did not take the decision himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe third point relates to the role that I have in this particular set of circumstances\u2014which is the role I take, I might add, in most of the discussions about the Provincial Growth Fund\u2014which is to ensure that issues like governance and the overall commercial arrangements that surround a project are ones that we can be satisfied with. The issue that I raised was around, for example, milestones for the project\u2014who would be managing; who would be looking after those milestones? As has been recorded, Minister Jones provided information about the role of Far North Holdings Ltd\u2014or the Far North District Council, of which Far North Holdings Ltd is a company related to that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295c5846e08384206b2c86ef62860a3de\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it gets worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223602bb146d4e4e698a724d5ce7e3a23e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t get worse, Gerry. This is the actual thing that\u2019s in the media. So Mr Jones provided information about the fact that they were involved in the governance side. That was not information about the proposal or the project; it was about an issue around the governance of the project. That information was received by Ministers and then I made the decision that I would be comfortable to move forward with supporting the project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255847945fe5c47088b18ee18973a8ae4\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: So the information was helpful? The member was influenced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f6d3b00326c4d14a816ec9fb818555f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I believe it is disorderly to accuse a member of being under outside influence when making a decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235231088880e4d93bef3effc36d58174\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I confess to being rapt in the comments that the Minister was making and didn\u2019t take notice of the interjection. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a problem of being under the influence of someone. The suggestion that someone\u2019s under the direction of someone\u2014if that accusation was made, it will be withdrawn and apologised for; otherwise, we\u2019ll continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dd09f68993b4d2f87db3096e33d63cf\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: So, provided with that information, I was able to support the project, ensuring that there were accurate milestones and the proper organisation and governance around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is the way that a conflict of interest can be managed within all of the work that Ministers do. I know, and you made the point, Mr Speaker, earlier today, that we are on the fifth anniversary of another occasion on which issues of conflict of interest came up. Now, I\u2019m not going to go deeply into that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd4b2bf7dab14df89a5fec66f23960ed\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280cfb76e97a14db191ab4eaa4790669a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because I\u2019m sure you won\u2019t allow me to do it, but given that you introduced that material when you were announcing that, there are, obviously, different ways of managing conflicts of interest. For example, if one were in a situation where there was direct commercial advantage likely to flow to a person or a close member of their family, the management of that kind of conflict of interest would be quite different from the management of a conflict of interest where a person simply knew people involved in a project and those people wanted that person to continue their involvement but it didn\u2019t happen. That is a quite different matter entirely from a conflict of interest that involves potential commercial gain for a person. As such, those two conflicts will be managed in different ways. This conflict here was managed by the Minister concerned making those involved in the decision making aware of that and then not participating in the decision making. That is an appropriate course of action to manage a conflict of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is very important to note that Minister Jones had no personal gain from this project\u2014none whatsoever\u2014and to hear Paul Goldsmith in the House assert today that somehow or other Minister Jones cannot be involved in making decisions about an entire region of New Zealand reflects exactly the perspective you would expect from a regional economic development spokesperson coming from the Epsom electorate and not understanding that, in New Zealand, we have regions that for years were ignored by the previous Government. On this side of the House, we have made a commitment to the people of Northland, the people of Tai R\u0101whiti, the people of Bay of Plenty, the people of Manawat\u016B-Whanganui, and the people of the West Coast of the South Island that their regions are ones we are prioritising because they are regions that actually deserve a fair go. They\u2019re regions that, once and for all, the Government is actually going to be able to support, so projects like this one are actually part of a Government taking responsibility for widespread regional development in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe know why the National Party want to put up urgent debate requests like this one: because they don\u2019t want to admit or focus on the fact that, right around New Zealand, people are seeing, finally, a Government that is investing in the regions, that is actually seeing practical projects being started, not another one of Steven Joyce\u2019s glossy booklets or strategies but practical projects on the ground. That\u2019s what the Provincial Growth Fund is about, and that is why a project like this is appropriate. This is a situation where a Minister declared a conflict of interest, followed the advice of the Cabinet Office, and took a particular course of action as to how to manage that conflict of interest. That is entirely appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022749189e83198449abfa6add9f8508970\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022749189e83198449abfa6add9f8508970\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I said during my contribution that I would seek leave to table the document that I signed out on 7 February before the meeting that is contentious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002269cdbc94c5914494be45b8e6922f3348\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269cdbc94c5914494be45b8e6922f3348\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that process? There is none. It will be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220757cdd63aea43d9b5eade0d16daa8f2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to call Andrew Falloon, but just to indicate that according to the agreed rosters, there is not a position for the ACT Party as part of this debate. Of course, if other members don\u2019t take a call, then I\u2019m sure the Speaker will recognise Mr Seymour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b776176a94b14440a034967128b65634\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b776176a94b14440a034967128b65634\u0022\u003EANDREW FALLOON (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be taking a call this afternoon on this urgent debate. I was just interested to see that Grant Robertson took the call that would otherwise be taken by a New Zealand First MP, and I hope that doesn\u2019t indicate that the Hon Shane Jones doesn\u2019t intend to take a call this afternoon and answer some of the questions that have been put forward to him by Paul Goldsmith, by myself, and, shortly to come, I hope, Jonathan Young, because there\u2019s some very serious questions around the role that he\u2019s played in this fund and, in particular, with this project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EDavid Parker spent the first five minutes of his contribution essentially saying that there is no conflict of interest in this case\u2014there is no conflict of interest in this case. Well, if that\u2019s the case, then why did Shane Jones declare a conflict of interest? If there was no conflict to declare, then why would Shane Jones put up his hand and say, \u201CI have a conflict here in relation to this project, and I need to step aside from the process.\u201D? The fact that he did that shows that David Parker is quite wrong\u2014there is a conflict of interest to be declared. Grant Robertson continued on with that line. He said there\u2019s no conflict because \u201CThere\u2019s no monetary gain\u201D\u2014no monetary gain. Well, if that\u2019s his test for what is a conflict of interest, I have grave concerns about other decisions that happen in that Cabinet. If his test for a conflict of interest is only where an MP or Minister is making money on the deal, then that is a scary representation of what might go on in that Minister\u2019s Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EIf there was no conflict to declare, why would Shane Jones declare one? If there was no point in declaring a conflict of interest and delegating responsibility to another Minister in terms of being actively involved in that decision-making process, then why would he have declared one? The Minister of Regional Economic Development apparently withdrew himself from the process. But we now know that he didn\u2019t do that. He claimed in written questions earlier this year that he had \u201Cwithdrawn fully from the decision making process\u201D and further stated he had not attended any meetings. Well, we now know that\u2019s not true\u2014that\u2019s not the case. He did attend a meeting, and so the question that we have, on this side of the House, is: why would he try and cover up that fact? Why would he suggest that he hadn\u2019t been to any meetings in relation to this project when we now know, through the release of documents on the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment website, that he did attend a meeting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson made some comments\u2014unfortunately, he didn\u2019t address the one concern that we have, which is that Grant Robertson was \u201Creassured by Shane Jones in that meeting\u201D. So the fact is we know that if Shane Jones hadn\u2019t been at that meeting, hadn\u2019t spoken on behalf of the project, it wouldn\u2019t have been funded\u2014it would not have received $4.6 million of taxpayers\u2019 money if Shane Jones had not been at that meeting. That is where the problem lies. The fact that he declared a conflict of interest in this project and still went to that meeting, spoke on its behalf\u2014and therefore taxpayers have put up $4.6 million to this project\u2014shows that there has been a conflict of interest. Parliament has been misled\u2014Parliament has been misled by the answers that Shane Jones has given to written questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EThe concern that we have, on this side of the House, goes back to how the fund is being operated. There\u2019s a huge lack of clarity around the entire project. Ministers have said that they have great sway in deciding where money will go. I think it\u2019s less than $1 million will be decided by officials, but anything greater than that is decided by Ministers. That means that Ministers\u2014and Shane Jones is one of those Ministers\u2014have great say over where that money goes. It\u2019s become a highly politicised fund, and I only have to look as far as something like Westland Dairy, where $10 million of taxpayers\u2019 money has gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EThe problem that we have on this side of the House is that because it has been such a political fund, because there\u2019s no clarity released on why funds are put into certain things\u2014we have concerns around the Westland Dairy one in particular, because, in that case, we don\u2019t even know the terms of the contract. We don\u2019t know how much the interest rate is, for example. We don\u2019t know what the key performance indicators are. There is no clarity around Westland Dairy\u2019s $10 million or, in fact, most of the funding applications that have been approved by the Government. So I ask the Minister\u2014and I hope he\u2019ll take a call shortly to answer some of the questions that we have\u2014if it\u2019s good enough to give Westland Dairy $10 million, then why not give $10 million on the same terms to a company like Synlait? Synlait, for example, don\u2019t know the terms of the loan that was given to Westland Dairy. They don\u2019t know that, for example, if they\u2019d been given $10 million, they might have been able to do a much better drying plant or something like that\u2014produce far more jobs. But because there\u2019s no clarity around the fund and how it\u2019s allocated and what the interest rate is, they don\u2019t know what they don\u2019t know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EI want to now turn to the regional breakdown of the fund, because that makes for quite sober reading. This goes back to Shane Jones\u2014\u201CMatua Jones\u201D\u2014his position as a Minister from Northland, and if we look at the regional breakdown, we see that $100 million of taxpayers\u2019 money has so far been allocated out of the Provincial Growth Fund for Northland. Now, compare that for a moment with Canterbury, which has received just $8 million; 8 percent of the funds that have gone to Northland have gone to Canterbury. If we\u2019re talking about conflicts of interest\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261eb997c90c34a9f8f4c7082e6cec60e\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: Canterbury doesn\u2019t need as much assistance as surge regions like Northland, like Tai R\u0101whiti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e07fa27ec54c0a8ef4eb6a0074c04d\u0022\u003EANDREW FALLOON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which we are this afternoon, we have to ask: why is it that 8 percent of the fund\u2014or 8 percent of what Northland\u2019s received\u2014has gone to Canterbury and $100 million has gone to Northland? Now, David Parker said, in his contribution, that that was quite innocent, and we all appreciate that Northland could use some investment. My colleague Kiri Allan across the hall has said has been talking about the Tai R\u0101whiti as well. But when we\u2019re talking about such a dramatic difference in figures\u2014of $8 million for Canterbury and $100 million for Northland\u2014and if we\u2019re talking about conflicts of interest, the question that has to be raised is: where is Mr Jones running? If it was as innocent as David Parker\u2019s suggesting, I\u2019d like him to speak, perhaps later on today, and confirm for us that, no, Shane Jones won\u2019t be running in Northland\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba7e78d2dd614c4fab36214becbc0848\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Just seeking guidance, sir. This sounds remarkably close to a line suggesting something that should never be suggested in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229de8a8e274c645bda91e652fb43e7f1b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume his seat. I think we\u2019ve seen over a period of time suggestions from both sides of the House, or various corners of the House, including in the time of the last Government, of pork-barrelling approaches. I think that\u2019s the suggestion we\u2019re having here now. I\u2019m listening very carefully to what is being said but, so far, the member\u2019s come up to the line and not gone over it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227437514aef24e5fb763e2139da85cf1\u0022\u003EANDREW FALLOON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. So I come back to the $8 million that Canterbury has received, and we again have to ask ourselves: apart from perhaps electoral advantage, why is it that Canterbury has received such a small number? I have to say, as a proud MP and a proud Cantabrian, that there are a lot of issues around the process\u2014there are a lot of complaints around the process in Canterbury, and a lot of those complaints come back to the point that I\u2019ve been making, which is around clarity and the ministerial decision-making, that there\u2019s no published parameters about what Ministers will look at. There\u2019s no suggestion of why Ministers will choose a certain project over another one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EA lot of that $8 million actually has come to my electorate, so I have to thank Mr Jones very much for that, but $7.5 million has been allocated for the thermal pools in Methven, which is a great project\u2014but $7.5 million has been approved. Interestingly, though, they only ever asked for two. So the project came to Shane Jones, they said, \u201CWe\u2019d like $2 million for this project.\u201D, officials approved it around the middle of last year that $2 million should go forth to this thermal pools project, it then landed on the Minister\u2019s desk, where it sat for round five and a half months, and then the Ministers came back and said, \u201COh well, I know they\u2019ve asked for $2 million, but, actually, let\u2019s give them $7.5 million.\u201D So there are real questions around how the money is being allocated and why Ministers are making the decisions that they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EI do want to come back to Northland, though, because what\u2019s interesting in that $100 million is that nowhere do we see, in that $100 million that\u2019s gone to Shane Jones\u2019 region of Northland, the Northland motorway. The members opposite\u2014we heard them, for about three or four or five years, talking very negatively about the so-called Holiday Highway. I found that quite offensive, actually, because the so-called Holiday Highway, the four lanes to Northland, would have unlocked the potential of Northland. If you look at the Tai Tokerau Northland Economic Action Plan, which was worked on not just by MPs but by stakeholders, by local government, by businesses and industry in Northland, the No. 1 recommendation from that report was for a four-lane highway into Northland to unlock the potential of Northland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EThe fact that the Government has given $100 million on projects where the Minister is highly conflicted\u2014he\u2019s declared that conflict\u2014and has not put money into something that would unlock the economic potential of Northland, I find quite outrageous. The fact that he would put money into pet projects where we now know he\u2019s conflicted, because he\u2019s declared that conflict\u2014he\u2019s gone to meetings which he said he hadn\u2019t been to. He\u2019s gone to those meetings, sat in those meetings, pulled his friend Grant Robertson aside and said, \u201COh, actually, mate, can you just throw these guys $4.6 million? I know them; they\u2019re really good\u2014but, hey, there\u2019s no conflict of interest here.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9797b05151743c5aed4136eac6ecad0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9797b05151743c5aed4136eac6ecad0\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Deputy Speaker. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. Look, it\u2019s not my job to defend Shane Jones. He\u2019s called me plenty of names over the years, including \u201Cthat squawking mollyhawk from the Greens\u201D, but this isn\u2019t about our colourful relationship; it\u2019s about the important issue in front of the House, and I would like to outline the Green Party\u2019s perspective on the issues. Now, first, at the highest level we absolutely support the investment in our regional economies. For too long, we weren\u2019t investing in regions that were really struggling, like my home region of Tai R\u0101whiti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI want to put on the record the Green Party\u2019s acknowledgment of the Speaker\u2019s decision to grant this urgent debate. I think it is important that these issues are given a transparent hearing in Parliament. I think it\u2019s important we get to canvass the issues, but I think what\u2019s most important for anyone watching, for the media, is the opportunity to hear from the Ministers, who have outlined their role, their experience, the time line. What this Parliament and what this country has heard is that there was no conflict of interest, as the Hon David Parker said. What we heard from the Hon Grant Robertson is that it didn\u2019t influence the decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENow, I acknowledge those members for their contribution. The fact is that we heard from the National members \u201CWell, why?\u201D. Now, I think every member in this House probably has examples where they\u2019ve used the term \u201Cconflict of interest\u201D without actually meaning the technical term. It\u2019s quite a cut and dry legalistic term, \u201Cconflict of interest\u201D\u2014you have it or you don\u2019t\u2014but I think many of us actually want to go above and beyond the requirement because you simply want to publicly acknowledge a relationship and that\u2019s what the situation is. The Minister simply knew people in the room. He didn\u2019t influence the decision, and we\u2019ve heard that from the Minister. So Minister Parker is correct: there was no conflict of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENow, why I said it\u2019s important we have this debate is that this is one of our strongest strengths as a country, which is the institutions which mean we don\u2019t experience the corruption we see in many other countries. Kiwis can trust Government institutions, and it\u2019s important that we have this opportunity to put it on the record. The Green Party is glad that these facts have been outlined, and we stand by the comments we\u2019ve heard that there was no conflict of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022348368dc67604205ab6b353fef5bc81b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022348368dc67604205ab6b353fef5bc81b\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Shane Jones said, \u201CI asked my ministerial colleagues to make the decision on that project in order to manage a conflict of interest.\u201D\u2014he said this in a written answer two months after attending the meeting\u2014\u201CAs such, I have had no formal meetings regarding the Manea Footprints of Kupe project since receiving my ministerial warrants.\u201D I\u2019m not sure that turning up to a Provincial Growth Fund (PGF) Ministers\u2019 meeting would be considered an informal meeting\u2014that\u2019s a formal meeting. So this answer, in reply to Paul Goldsmith\u2019s written question No. 8264 (2018), is false and incorrect. Then, specifying \u201Cno formal meetings\u201D leaves one definitely of the view that there were informal meetings since he received his ministerial warrant. We\u2019ve heard of meetings at the \u014Cp\u014Dnoni pub.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EI guess the Minister would say, as he travels about in Northland, that he has a wide variety of informal meetings all across the region, as one would expect. I have lots of informal meetings myself. To say that those informal meetings don\u2019t count when it comes to a conflict of interest is incorrect, because the Minister was able to say to my colleague the Hon Paul Goldsmith, in one of his questions on 27 June, \u201CI have been very loud on the marae in my own area in my community after I was approached by someone who I felt I should have no fear or favour following his advice encouraging me to meet with [certain people]\u201D. That was an informal meeting, and the Minister would have gone on to meet those people, and, of course, that became a whole series of questions in the House that came from that. So to hide behind \u201CI\u2019ve had no formal meetings\u201D is not good enough and not strong enough. It influences people\u2019s actions, and I have no doubt at all that when the Minister attended this meeting with the other provincial growth Ministers and they wanted to have a reassurance, you can\u2019t get much more formal than that. To state that he was there informally is so incorrect, and so it is a conflict not only of his interests but also of his statement in a written question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ve got to ask, \u201CWell, what are the perceived conflicts?\u201D The Minister has said his relationship with the key proponent of the project, Whet\u016B Naera\u2014the chief of Hokianga\u2014and his past advocacy and support for the project as a Labour MP. But you\u2019d also have to say, as many MPs would know in their constituencies, that when you have worked with a kaum\u0101tua, when you have supported a project, there is a strong interest in you causing that project to succeed, otherwise your mana and your reputation is affected because you have not delivered on your support\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdf0a0dfc1cf416b895ab1470709826d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Not mine\u2014not mine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236af602d407a4948be1ac976a3ac72bb\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014other MPs, I\u2019m referring to\u2014have not delivered on their support and their advocacy, as has been suggested by my colleague Andrew Falloon. Not just from in this House and not just from this side, but the conjecture of the media is that if New Zealand First are to succeed in the 2020 elections, then they need an electorate seat. If the Hon Shane Jones was going to stand in Northland, then his mana and his reputation are absolutely vital, so perhaps there is an implied conflict in that particular area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003ETo hide behind \u201CI have had no formal meetings regarding the Manea Footprints of Kupe project\u201D is absolutely just an obfuscation, creating suspicion that more is at stake here. But why did he arrange for Kelvin Davis to make the decision? He said, \u201CIt\u2019s necessary for me to seek advice from time to time from the Cabinet Office.\u201D, etc. Obviously, the Minister has worked with Mr Davis in the past when it came to decisions regarding Northland. I do recall, back in February 2018, in a discussion that\u2019s been raised here today regarding the State Highway 10 roundabout, that here we see there was an obvious cooperation or collusion at its finest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EEarlier in the year, the State Highway - Waipapa roundabout project near Kerikeri received the go-ahead for $9 million of provincial growth funding, and I raised this in a question in the House. I questioned the appropriateness of this, considering the Cabinet minute stipulated the Provincial Growth Fund couldn\u2019t be used to fund any projects already funded by the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA). So Mr Jones said the chief executive of NZTA came to him asking for the money, although Shane Jones, in reply to one of my questions, said, \u201CNZTA has provided me with details of specific projects in response to requests for information from myself about projects that may align with the PGF criteria.\u201D It was interesting, and I raise this issue because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca47dc5bc7aa4d6d965e6b6f6a2d6dea\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It might be interesting, but it actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022509b175e6dbe4a64b2a89a3076a9edd6\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014madam, it does have context, and it\u2019s around this conflict of interest, and particularly in the Northland area. It was Northland MP Kelvin Davis who suggested, through his own question at that particular point in time, that the PGF fund was given because of the huge number of serious accidents and fatalities. Well, as we found out later through the parliamentary research unit, over 15 years there had been no fatalities. I raise this point because in my area, from Bell Block to Waitara there is a piece of road that has three intersections in the country\u2019s top 20 that are deemed as incredibly dangerous, and we have had 12 fatalities in the last 10 years. Why is it that one roundabout gets funding and another doesn\u2019t\u2014one has no fatalities and the other has 12 over a decade?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003ESo what I would say is that this is pork-barrel politics at its worst, where New Zealand lives are at stake. When we want accountability and probity and transparency around the Provincial Growth Fund and how it\u2019s administered, and that it\u2019s not a political slush fund, it\u2019s because New Zealanders\u2019 lives and welfare are at stake. I believe that is a very important issue that we need to understand here, that it\u2019s not just a conflict of interest because Shane Jones says he knows a kaum\u0101tua; it\u2019s not just a conflict of interest because it\u2019s a project that he supported. I say it\u2019s a conflict of interest because it\u2019s to do with his mana and his reputation in a region that he has made many promises to, to the point when in a formal meeting\u2014not informal; a formal meeting\u2014of PGF Ministers, when there was a question around reassurance, that Treasury was saying they don\u2019t back this project that he was involved in, he participated in a decision that went his way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003ESo I believe that we do need to call this a decision, this process, into the clear light of day, and there needs to be accountability. People all over this country are recognising more and more and more that this Provincial Growth Fund is being misused at times. It\u2019s doing a lot of good things. It\u2019s doing a lot of good things, but at times it\u2019s been misused for purposes which I think New Zealanders would be very upset about and disagree with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the point I wish to raise, and I thank you for the opportunity to bring these matters to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f578abac3a874e5488381e692b9fbac7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f578abac3a874e5488381e692b9fbac7\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you very much. So I think what we have seen in the contribution from the last member, Jonathan Young, and the contribution from Mr Falloon, is that, actually, this is not about the urgent debate topic that was put forward. What we have seen in the previous contributions from the two National Party members is an articulation of \u201CWe didn\u2019t get some money, so how come Northland did?\u201D What I find very interesting about the contribution particularly from Mr Falloon is that sitting next to him is Matt King, the member for Northland, who has just sat next to the gentleman who has argued that Northland, one of the most neglected areas in New Zealand, should not\u2014should not\u2014get any economic development funding. There is a suggestion that this is all because a member, a Minister, may or may not stand in a particular seat. That line was glided to very closely by Mr Falloon. He completely ignored, of course, that Tai R\u0101whiti has had over close to $200 million worth of provincial growth funding. I do understand that Mr Falloon somehow is very sad that his area\u2014his area\u2014that he, obviously, advocates for has only received $8 million to date\u2014to date. The whole of the Provincial Growth Fund is still running.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s get back to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294ef1c6672a74f7790444e266b033dfd\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, so the member now has taken a minute and a half debating things that she didn\u2019t think should have been debated. So I would ask her to come to the topic on the floor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ad1166916914bd6891f86b83f14bc62\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: So let\u2019s get back to what, supposedly, this urgent debate is about, which is actually about the disclosure, the actual disclosure, by Minister Jones of a perceived conflict of interest. Let\u2019s make sure we identify this correctly. There is no direct benefit to Mr Jones from the project that is being discussed\u2014there is no direct benefit to Mr Jones from the project being discussed. There is a perceived conflict that he took advice on in October 2018 from the Cabinet Office, who said to him that there is not necessarily any perceived conflict just to know somebody, which\u2014we all know lots of people in a small country around New Zealand. Just to know someone is not a perceived conflict. There is an error that has been repeated in this House by the Opposition: Mr Jones was never the chair of this particular organisation, and they should stop repeating incorrect information, because the Speaker has previously warned, only last week, about the ability to provide evidence, should one continue to make such statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f7731f58db34a099d3aef374c6a170d\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It was not the Opposition who made that allegation against Mr Jones. It was stated as a fact by the Rt Hon Winston Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022660b60083642488caa6281666447f9ce\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In fairness, that is not a point of order; that is a debatable point, and I\u2019m sure that the next speaker will take that up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256a1fecab65f45199eb218610c896902\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: I think people should go and actually go and check the Hansard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f525dea0e7e94ab59aaf8c0d30393227\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That might apply to all of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fb9e3c13d9440659954b5eb45db1ba9\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that\u2019s right. It applies to all of us. People should go and check the Hansard. So let\u2019s get to the other process, then. So the Minister sought advice. He was told he didn\u2019t need to actually declare any perceived conflict of interest, but because he knows that the Opposition is so incredibly jealous of the fact that there is a Provincial Growth Fund, and for the fact that it is incredibly popular and doing good things for New Zealand, he erred on the side of extreme caution. He erred on the side of extreme caution and declared. He not only declared; he removed himself by asking another Minister to sit in on the decision-making part of this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s now come to the question that Mr Goldsmith put down in writing\u2014and words matter. They\u2019ve always mattered. The Opposition is manipulating the words continually around this particular issue for their own benefit. The question was: had the Minister gone to or attended any meetings on this specific project? Technically, Mr Jones did not attend any official meetings on this specific project. He attended a meeting of 16 projects with four other Ministers and did not take any part in the decision making on that particular project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ENow, these are the facts for New Zealanders to digest. They need to go and check the Hansard around the comments made by the Opposition and marry that with the reality of what went on here. A Minister, who is determined to grow\u2014and there is a terrible undercurrent coming around any project funded by the Provincial Growth Fund for M\u0101ori in this country, and the people should go and check the Hansard around those comments. It would appear that if there are predominantly M\u0101ori in an area, the Opposition will object to there being any Provincial Growth Fund money spent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00226bc49ec4a185455da826b2a4d3172fa8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bc49ec4a185455da826b2a4d3172fa8\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I\u2019d just like to take my stance against what Tracey Martin was actually saying. She was trying to correct something that doesn\u2019t actually exist. It was the Rt Hon Winston Peters during the 2015, I believe, by-election of Northland, where he actually said and stated and campaigned, saying that Shane Jones was in fact the chair. So I would like to correct the member on that. I think she should go and check her facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EOnce again, we are in this House debating about the secrecy, the shambles, and the shoddy deals of the most, I quote, \u201Copen and transparent\u201D Government in New Zealand history. This Government has claimed to be that, a pledge that they have actually given to New Zealanders, which lies in tatters. We thought that they may have learnt something from last year\u2019s events. I\u2019m reminded of those events that actually happened in this very House during oral questions that I personally had given to a Minister, a former broadcasting Minister, where she had failed to tell the truth. This Minister has also done similar things, where written questions were asked of him and he had declared that there was nothing to see here, and we find out today\u2014well, I find out today\u2014that we do have something to question him on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe Minister should come to this House\u2014and he is in the House\u2014and should actually answer questions on why he was present at that meeting. He declared a conflict of interest. Actually, it was Grant Robertson who said that he was a little bit concerned about that. He was concerned about it so much that he actually got assurances from the honourable gentleman sitting at the back of the row, the Hon Shane Jones, and it was Shane Jones who actually gave the Minister of Finance the reassurance of this group. What would you call that, Madam Deputy Speaker? I\u2019d call that influence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6dd6d9518f54bfab22bb403d4588de4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t bring me into it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d9894d3b68446af81352a20ca6be09a\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d call that influence. It was Shane Jones who reassured the Minister of Finance about this group. If it wasn\u2019t about Mr Jones\u2019 convincing the Minister of Finance, this group would not have been funded to the tune of millions of dollars, and we have a Minister who is responsible for hundreds of millions\u2014actually, $3 billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe issue is particularly critical for the future in my own portfolio. I\u2019m quite worried because this Minister is responsible for the regional digital hubs and the rural connectivity. I am really worried that this Minister will be getting into all of these meetings when he has actually declared a conflict of interest himself, identifying that he does have a conflict. I mean, he\u2019s not a silly man. He\u2019s a learned man who knows the difference between a conflict or not, I would guess\u2014I hope. He laughs at the back of the room. If he has actually declared it, then he knows that there is a conflict. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThere might be family members who are involved in this project. He should have removed himself from the meetings where the decisions were being made. Where the decisions are being made and where the discussions are actually happening, this Minister, having declared a conflict, should not be in the room, where he is actually influencing the other Ministers who are making the decision to give the group millions of dollars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo, Mr Jones, I say that I think this Government is actually not very transparent, nor is it open, and this Minister certainly has not been open about his relationships. He should come clean about what kind of an influence he had and what kind of a role he played where the decision was made to fund this group. I certainly believe that there was influence. I certainly believe that he had a conflict of interest, and he should not have actually been in that room and convincing the Minister of Finance or giving reassurances to the Minister of the Finance that there was nothing to see there, because there certainly was. He himself declared the conflict. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022107bf8314b1f4c40a9a14a6cf99c9b89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022107bf8314b1f4c40a9a14a6cf99c9b89\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E If there\u2019s anything that just came through really clearly from Melissa Lee, the previous speaker, it was that she clearly had no grasp with the factual narrative, because if she had have, she would have realised that at the very first opportunity, the Minister colloquially known as the first citizen of the provinces made the declaration of a perceived conflict of interest at the earliest possible opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EIn 2014, the factual narrative goes\u2014just to assist some of those members in the Opposition\u2014that the Minister, who was at that point a Labour member of Parliament, met with the Manea group. Due to his gravitas, they approached him to be the chair, which he declined. Now, coming to 2017, he became the Minister responsible for the regional economic development fund. He was then presented with a proposal from Manea. He turned to the Cabinet Office for guidance. The first thing that the Minister did at that point was declare the perceived conflict of interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ENow, I turn to the good practice guide that was published by the Controller and Auditor-General. Now, what they say is that \u201CIn a small country like ours, conflicts of interest in our working lives are natural and unavoidable.\u201D A small country like ours\u2014New Zealand. Not some other country; here in New Zealand. \u201CThe existence of a conflict of interest does not necessarily mean that someone has done something wrong, and it need not cause problems. It just needs to be identified and managed properly.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ESo, what happened? What happened was that the Minister, the first citizen of the provinces\u2014and as the junior citizen of the provinces, I\u2019m very proud of the way that he managed that conflict\u2014turned to the Cabinet Office. He made the declaration. He then informed and he gave off his vote to other Ministers\u2014not even of his own party, might I add\u2014and they managed that application. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ENow, what is really interesting is that if you listened to the speeches from every person from the Opposition, including the person that called for this debate\u2014who could barely make up his time when it came to giving his offerings, because he had to turn to saying how sad, mad, and bad it was that particular regions weren\u2019t getting funding for their provinces. What is that? That\u2019s got nothing to do with the Minister for Regional Economic Development. That has everything to do with the fact that the Opposition knows that the Provincial Growth Fund is having an immeasurable impact in the provinces and in the regions, so much so that the provinces are, rightly, saying that they were left behind for nine long years by the guys that they\u2019d been voting for for so long. What are they doing? They are withdrawing their support, and your polls are showing it, absolutely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a little bit rich, as well. We turn, and we listen to the Leader of the Opposition. Just yesterday, on Morning Report, he goes on and he says, \u201COh, that Jones\u2019 behaviour was serious and wrong.\u201D, and then he goes on to say, \u201CAnd, you know, Jones, he says, \u2018Oh, it\u2019s sweet as, bro. It\u2019s sweet as, bro. We just go about and we just grant all the applications, because it\u2019s sweet as, bro.\u2019\u00A0\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EWhat a horrible articulation of the way that the Hon Shane Jones conducts himself. I have never ever heard the Hon Shane Jones speak in that way, and I\u2019m very disappointed to hear a Leader of the Opposition articulate our fine, articulate, M\u0101ori Minister in charge of the regional growth fund to be characterised in that way. That\u2019s my first point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EMy second point is that he said that it was serious and wrong that there is this egregious conflict of interest. Now, let\u2019s turn to, I don\u2019t know\u2014in his time in Government, there was this little issue of a wee company called Oravida, and his other mate, who\u2019s on\u2014what is it? Six percent or 7 percent, is she riding at about now? Judith Collins. Now, there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229230985f54c34c0aaf2516874a784eef\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Come back to the matter at hand. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b939740776f4c2787b35d6c7c17f2ee\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Sure thing\u2014sure thing. But I do think it\u2019s rich that when we had these egregious actual conflicts of interest under the previous administration\u2014when they need to, they bark at every passing car because they\u2019re trying to get attention. This debate is, well, in the interests of justice, it\u2019s fine\u2014like let\u2019s all have this constitutional dialogue. But the substance of the debate and the issues that are giving call to this debate are absolutely egregious, and I\u2019m really proud to support our Minister for Regional Economic Development and the way that he\u2019s conducted himself alongside the other Ministers responsible for the regional economic development fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00222895ff5e5c5b46238ed71a61380936d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222895ff5e5c5b46238ed71a61380936d6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t realise this was a split call, but I guess it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0b183fe06da4d4ebcd2dd71858b5d00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0b183fe06da4d4ebcd2dd71858b5d00\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s a very sad day when the Opposition gets a prime opportunity to debate an issue that is, obviously, making some headlines at the moment and really fluffs their lines, because that is what has happened. I\u2019ve been watching this debate and it\u2019s my pleasure to wrap proceedings up, because I can\u2019t make head or tail of what the Opposition\u2019s argument has been today. Is it that they love the Provincial Growth Fund\u2014because I heard Andrew Falloon saying \u201CGive us more. We love it\u2014give us more.\u201D, and then I heard another speaker call it a slush fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a sad and sorry day when the National Party can\u2019t even get the basic\u2014I don\u2019t know what\u2019s happening to the person putting their notes together, because they used to be disciplined. But the lack of key messaging that has come through in today\u2019s debate really disappoints me, because the National Party used to be a party that was disciplined and right on message. But, today, when given the opportunity of a debate, I see them floundering. Paul Goldsmith made a decent first attempt, but, really, those after have really, really struggled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI want to pay homage and respect to the Hon Shane Jones, someone who on both sides of the House has had great respect, because the previous Government saw fit to make the Hon Shane Jones a roving ambassador in the Pacific, with distinction around our fishing. So they saw the great talent of the man and the relationships that he could have and the value that could have to New Zealand. That\u2019s why we saw the great potential in him in making sure that as Minister for Regional Economic Development, he could take the coalition agreement around the Provincial Growth Fund and do something with that and make sure that the nine years of neglect under the previous Government was actioned, to make sure that those people in those regions like Northland and like Tai R\u0101whiti\u2014could make sure that there was hope and opportunity for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo, back in 2014, when the Hon Shane Jones was a hard-working Labour member of Parliament, he visited this outfit, the Manea trust, who were advocating, obviously, for the project that they had, and Mr Jones wrote to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, saying, \u201CHey, look, this is a really worthy project. We should look into it.\u201D Now, when, in November 2017, Mr Jones became the Minister for Regional Economic Development, having already had a relationship with the trust, he said, \u201CHey folks, because of this, I\u2019m going to step back.\u201D, and he declared a conflict of interest perceived. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ENow, as my colleague Kiri Allan has pointed out, there are different conflicts of interest. In this case, because Mr Jones had actually been to this outfit before, had seen the merit of it, and had said, \u201CWe should take this and do something with it.\u201D, he said, \u201CBecause I\u2019m a decision maker in the Provincial Growth Fund process, I\u2019m going to recuse myself from being in this decision-making process, and I\u2019ll remove myself.\u201D\u2014which is absolutely the right thing to do\u2014after he got some advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ENow, the Opposition has been \u201Cbarking at cars\u201D around what Mr Jones has reportedly done or not done, and I think he has already said himself that maybe it could have been a little tidier if he had recused himself from a specific meeting that wasn\u2019t specifically about the Manea trust but was a broader Provincial Growth Fund meeting. So in the big scheme of things, knowing someone, having engaged with them five years ago, and then declaring a conflict of interest perceived after getting advice from the Cabinet Office isn\u2019t the big drama that the Opposition would lead people to believe. I think once people figure out the facts of that case, they realise that this is actually nothing about nothing\u2014which brings me to my final point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EMy final point is that the Leader of the Opposition himself was on Morning Report, I think either today or yesterday morning, when he said, \u201COh, look, we don\u2019t want to be barking at every car.\u201D, and that\u2019s the problem with this: they are. It\u2019s not getting any resonance because this issue is a big pile of nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259d2d0c6ce0e4c3594ec6d4023e4dac3\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Then stop talking about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e043af23c8248b5b9dcbc65ef5de8a6\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m quite happy to take up the next 45 seconds, Mr Brownlee. So the Leader of the Opposition can continue to bark at cars. His colleagues know that that barking at cars isn\u2019t giving them the resonance that they need out there in the public, and, certainly, this issue isn\u2019t going to be the big game-changer that they know they need\u2014the big game-changer that happens to be the person that is sitting in that seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002277110661691a48cb909bd00fab1c22a8\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2017/18 Confirmation and Validation) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224289c85470a84153b82e4491970f9a0e\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00221334e210d505488e87951c283a26c02f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221334e210d505488e87951c283a26c02f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2017/18 Confirmation and Validation) Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022918a446a0a0b4a84ad0f360e35e8af32\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2017/18 Confirmation and Validation) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ff6d3e2f8443e92ebcfefcdf0a37d\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a3f1ad2b2f9f4130a1cf627eac1bc7b2\u0022\u003ELeave for Setting Down as Government Order of the Day No. 2\u2014Psychoactive Substances (Increasing Penalty for Supply and Distribution) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae7b216a1be042d3b6e0bcd1972d75ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae7b216a1be042d3b6e0bcd1972d75ce\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek the leave of the House for the Psychoactive Substances (Increasing Penalty for Supply and Distribution) Amendment Bill in the name of Simeon Brown to be set down for third reading as Government order of the day No. 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b81dad65fb0045c9a02480889f08b3f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b81dad65fb0045c9a02480889f08b3f9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? Unfortunately, leave is not granted for that purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022068d011c717a484d9e8264a240dd6b3a\u0022\u003EMisuse of Drugs Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db96834904ef43eabcd981b44087b28b\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00229b16efaa70f34989b20d5dc68de2a1ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b16efaa70f34989b20d5dc68de2a1ca\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Health Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I will move that the committee report the bill back to the House by 22 July 2019. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975. The use of synthetic drugs is a major public health problem. Since June 2017, there has been a total of 50 to 55 deaths provisionally linked to the use of two dangerous synthetic drugs, 5F-ADB and AMB-FUBINACA. To address this problem, we need a public health response that focuses on prevention, harm reduction, and early intervention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis bill makes three key changes. It will classify AMB-FUBINACA and 5F-ADB as class A drugs. It will reaffirm the existing police discretion and specify that when considering whether a prosecution is required in the public interest for drug possession and use, consideration should be given to whether a therapeutic approach would be more beneficial. This discretion exists for all drug offences. It will enable temporary drug class orders to be issued to better control emerging and potentially harmful substances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis bill provides immediate measures to reduce the supply of drugs in New Zealand right now. Classification of AMB-FUBINACA and 5F-ADB gives police and customs greater search and seizure powers, meaning that they will be better able to disrupt supply and reduce the availability of these drugs to people who use them. Police already use their discretion when deciding whether to prosecute for personal possession and use drug offences. The bill reaffirms this approach, which is consistent with current operational policy and is supported by the police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis amendment aligns with the Government\u2019s intent to treat drug use as a health issue and help people stop their drug use. The synthetic drug market is rapidly evolving, with new drugs constantly emerging. Temporary drug class orders mean that we will be able to respond more appropriately and more quickly to potentially harmful new synthetic drugs. Temporary class drug orders are substantially similar to a previous provision, the temporary class drug notices, which operated well for several years prior to the passing of the Psychoactive Substances Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe bill will ensure that enforcement powers and penalties are focused on those who import, manufacture, and supply dangerous drugs, and not the people who use the drugs themselves. We want to make sure that those who are in the web of addiction are supported to give up the drugs that they are dependent upon. The report of the Government Inquiry into Mental Health and Addiction has recommended reforming drug policy and laws with a focus on minimising harm and promoting health while increasing addiction services. Our response is consistent with these recommendations, ensuring that people aren\u2019t unnecessarily criminalised for using drugs and instead can access the health and social support services that they need. We\u2019ve seen too many drug-related deaths and hospitalisations over the last few years. Action is needed to prevent and reduce further drug-related harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIn closing, I want to thank Jenny Marcroft and Darroch Ball, the respective health and justice spokespersons for New Zealand First, and Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, spokesperson on drug law reform for the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand. They\u2019ve been highly willing and constructive contributors to this bill, and the bill is consistent with both of their parties\u2019 coalition and confidence and supply agreements with the Labour Party of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis bill is important as we tackle drugs which have caused deaths and harm in our community. It is a response that we need to progress urgently but also thoroughly to ensure that the war on drugs approach, which has failed our communities and seen too many die, is not allowed to continue, and that instead we continue with an approach that gets tough on the suppliers of these drugs and puts them in face of the full force of the law but also treats compassionately those who are caught in the web of addiction to ensure they are given the support they need to beat the drugs that are bringing them down. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022df470917a7d44c29bd35a4bff8bd1a11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df470917a7d44c29bd35a4bff8bd1a11\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to take a call on this bill. Finally, we\u2019re getting into changing the classification of two drugs in particular around synthetics, which I\u2019m sure everybody in this House will agree is an absolute scourge on our society and it\u2019s time it was done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EI noted that the Minister talked about urgency. It\u2019s a shame that, actually, they did block the third reading of Simeon Brown\u2019s bill, because that would have actually made that happen today. So if that had gone through\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1c7d9e6b958438eb8eb379f69462f54\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: No he didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dd5da7935964e55bfd09c097651a7ab\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we took a point of order, Mr Ball, and we actually did call out for that third reading to happen today, and it was voted down by the Government. But if you\u2019d like us to put it again, Mr Ball, we would really like to, because that would mean that it would be in straight away, and that\u2019s important, because if we are talking urgency, we wouldn\u2019t need to wait for that to go through yet another select committee process and go through a discussion. I think there would be immediate agreement in this House that those two drugs in particular should be made class A. We should be increasing the penalties that go alongside of that for those that are supplying this sick drug, quite frankly, that is killing our young people and others that are in a really desperate state to be taking something that\u2019s so insidious and dangerous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ESo we support that part of it\u2014there\u2019s no two ways about it. Twelve months is too slow. So we\u2019re 18 months in; 12 months ago, they talked about making these changes. We now have to wait about another six to eight months for it to go through the House process. As I say, it\u2019s a real shame that that third reading of the bill couldn\u2019t come in. We\u2019ll be bringing that in via Simeon Brown\u2019s bill. It\u2019s already been through the process, and I hope that it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EI would also like to agree with the temporary drug class orders. So there are different drugs coming on the market all the time. Unfortunately, our suppliers and manufacturers make so much money out of it that they are finding different ways to actually manufacture it and use different chemicals. As such, I think it makes sense that you can have a temporary order that can come in, and, as a consequence, that means\u2014it\u2019s for 12 months, is the way I read the bill\u2014that while they work through the process as to whether or not it should go into the system and be made a regulation completely, immediately the police can react to it. Also, I reckon it might help with some of those health aspects of it\u2014that by identifying it legally and through the system as a temporary class, it also means it might help those medical practitioners that are dealing with people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ENow, I come to what I want to spend the bulk of my few minutes talking about and the bit that I have some issue with. It is important that we get the kind of actual wording of this right. But the Minister talked about the measures that are being introduced to address the harm being caused by synthetics, and addressing the other requires a health-based response rather than a punitive one so that people can access the health and social support services that they need. The actual wording for the bill is, from Part 1, clause 6, new section 5, \u201CTo avoid doubt, it is affirmed that there is a discretion to prosecute for an offence against this section, and a prosecution should not be brought unless it is required in the public interest.\u201D So a prosecution should not be brought for those that are supposedly either addicted or just taking all classes of drugs. And that\u2019s a big call, right? That is different than what the police currently do. In some respects, it might be all right as far as a health\u2014it might be, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ESo this is decriminalisation, in effect\u2014this is decriminalisation. Let\u2019s go through this. So, effectively, now, in law\u2014so, actually, this is not normal, for this to be in law. Normally, the way that the police operate is not ever written in legislation like this, and particularly police having discretion around certain areas is not written in legislation like this. So this is completely different, right? Let\u2019s not underestimate how different this is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b909ee92819a43e3beedc793f4fcb1d9\u0022\u003EGreg O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Anti-smacking bill\u2014got through because of John Key.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cff0d7864bf4e8db418a83c06ee9cf8\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: This is different, and it\u2019s in the same actual part of the Act as the anti-smacking. So that\u2019s about what it is like, and it\u2019s very rare, and it is not usual, and it means that Parliament is now instructing the police as to how they want them to act. And that\u2019s all right. That might be where we end up\u2014it might be where we end up, but decriminalisation of drugs is huge, and we\u2019re talking all drugs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ELet me give you some examples of what that actually means. So in Portugal, for example\u2014as many in this House will know\u2014they actually decriminalised all drugs and have gone for a 100 percent health response. You know what, depending on which bit of evidence you want to read and which way you want to do your argument, there\u2019s evidence for all sorts of different stuff, but for some, you\u2019ve got to say, it\u2019s working. What they have done, though\u2014let\u2019s be really careful\u2014is they took eight years to bring that in\u2014eight years. So they went through an eight-year process of making sure that they asked the right questions, had the right services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThey have set up what they call their panels throughout\u2014sorry, they don\u2019t call them panels, but they\u2019ve got the whole treatment model, and what they have there is a referral that goes from police to those panels. It\u2019s compulsory that people go to them. At that panel are three health experts that genuinely sit down with the person and look at their health needs and what they can do to help them, and whether or not it\u2019s a one-off recreational or whether or not it is someone that has got a true addiction. They then make sure and back up that the right services are there for them over a two-year period as a minimum. We\u2019re not proposing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EWe are proposing that a front-line police officer looks at someone who is either taking P or taking marijuana and decides whether or not they have an addiction problem or that this is a one or two - off recreational, whether or not they need full health assistance\u2014they then might suggest them to them. There is not the back-up to make sure. Well, I don\u2019t know what the regime is that is being proposed. It is a sentence in a bill that is absolutely important. We are talking about health and addiction and, actually, we do all care about that. All of us have actually had examples and extended friends and family and people we love who have been hooked on insidious drugs that have destroyed lives, but you can\u2019t do it by putting a sentence in a piece of legislation that the country doesn\u2019t understand, that hasn\u2019t got health professionals actually making a call on, and that is putting more strain on our police officers in an area that they are not experts in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ESo if decriminalisation is what the Government thinks this country should be heading down the path of, well, let\u2019s talk about it. Let\u2019s make sure we don\u2019t put $16.6 million in; let\u2019s make sure we put $100 million in, because that\u2019s what it will take to actually even start to get to the length of care that some people are going to need when they\u2019re hooked on this stuff. Let\u2019s actually debate the real\u2014because this, in my mind, could be more dangerous. This could actually see people not going up in front of the right experts and getting the right help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EIn Portugal, for example, there\u2019s a certain amount that you can be carrying that means that police will not prosecute you because that\u2019s personal use. What is the amount? So what\u2019s the difference between someone that is supplying\u2014and is manufacturing and supplying\u2014and someone that is carrying for personal use? So we don\u2019t have that kind of detail or anything in it. Actually, that is really important. It is really important. So where are the differences if you are going down a whole other regime of how we treat this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EAs I say, I\u2019m not against it and I think there is something in it for a health response, but it cannot be done by stealth. It cannot be done by two sentences in a health bill that is going through that is raising synthetics. The country deserves more. Our health people and our health experts deserve more, and certainly those people that are caught in addiction deserve more as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EHow are we going to get the police now making the kinds of calls on \u201CA bit of heroin\u2019s OK on you, but I\u2019m carrying a bit and I think you might be supplying it to someone else.\u201D? So that police officer will now make that kind of call, but they\u2019re not sure because they\u2019re put in such a very rare occurrence, having Parliament actually putting it in legislation. If we are, then let\u2019s put up health panels. Let\u2019s make sure we\u2019re putting in the absolute tens of millions of dollars that are needed to provide the kinds of services that people will need, and it\u2019s in that vein that I just can\u2019t support this bill and the National Party won\u2019t be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00223dd92633dabe4c58a9aa07239923a8dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dd92633dabe4c58a9aa07239923a8dc\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green):\u003C/span\u003E E Te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e Te Whare. I hope that I can address some of the concerns raised by the Hon Paula Bennett in my contribution to supporting this Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill. This Act is over 40 years old and it requires, quite frankly, a complete overhaul, which is something that I think both myself and Ms Bennett can agree with, because instead of reducing drug harm, what we\u2019ve actually seen is a colossal increase in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI didn\u2019t come to Parliament to advocate for drug law reform. To be honest, it wasn\u2019t even really on my radar. I came in here to advocate for constitutional reform, because I was passionate about that. But then the Greens helped to form the Government, Julie Anne Genter became a Minister, and, as a backbench MP, I inherited her medicinal cannabis misuse of drugs amendment member\u2019s bill. I began digging into the detail and the lives and stories of those who were affected by the Misuse of Drugs Act. I found that some people are prosecuted and other people aren\u2019t. I found that different police use different criteria to decide to use their discretion. I found that different people use different drugs for different reasons. And I found that the war on drugs is disproportionately a war on the poor. Imprisoning drug users to bring about sobriety is like bombing for peace. It does not work. In fact, it actually makes things far worse; it causes irreparable generational damage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI continued my research down the rabbit hole and learned about countries like Portugal, raised by Ms Bennett, which, 20 years ago, removed criminal penalties for the use and possession of drugs in response to a spate of heroin deaths. All negative statistics associated with drugs\u2014overdose deaths, hospital admissions, problematic use, substance dependency, even youth usage\u2014have gone down as a result. More than 50 people died in Aotearoa New Zealand as a result of using synthetic drugs last year. They were among the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. I spoke to those who work in housing the homeless and they estimated that this death toll is just the tip of the iceberg. In the meantime, politicians have bickered about going hard on drugs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI participated in the debate because I felt like I knew the research and the evidence, and I knew that the Greens had an alternative rational solution for drug law reform that could save lives. And then Tyrone died. Tyrone Smith was an artist. He created a cartoon series called Happy Space, with characters like Peng Peng, the penguin strapped in a spacesuit and a jetpack that I have worn on my lapel for the past few months in Tyrone\u2019s memory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe coroner deemed Tyrone\u2019s cause of death as pneumonia and pharmaceutical drug toxicity. He was 49 years old. He left behind a loving partner, friends, and wh\u0101nau. We sung \u201CAnchor Me\u201D at his funeral. Tyrone used to joke to his siblings that all of his ducks had lined up. He didn\u2019t mean what most people do when they say that. He had three ducks that he often spoke about: a problematic birth; dyslexia, meaning he found it difficult to engage in school and get his qualifications; and his dad\u2019s death when he was 11 years old.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ETyrone first tried drugs\u2014cannabis to begin with\u2014at the age of 15. He said he liked the way it made him feel numb. He said it took away the pain. So he looked for harder drugs. Tyrone went through rehab after rehab. He was lucky and had unconditional love from his family, but the broken system and the stigma our society upholds with the mantra of this war on drugs saw Tyrone slip through the net, and as a result he left us too early. Tyrone\u2019s story is not an anomaly. I want to thank him and his family for allowing me to tell it. This bill is for Tyrone and for other substance-dependent people and their wh\u0101nau who don\u2019t know where or who to turn to for help and cannot navigate a system that demonises and ostracises and doesn\u2019t want to touch them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EPoliticians have said for years and years and years that we have got to be hard on drugs. But what on earth does that mean, because what we have seen is more drugs and greater harm proliferation throughout communities across this country and, indeed, across the world. What we have seen is people die. What we have seen is our prisons clog up. And what we have seen is good money thrown after bad and the situation getting worse. What we\u2019ve seen is that this hard on drugs line is nothing but a nice piece of virtue signalling. But worse than signalling virtue, worse than doing nothing, this moral posturing has cost lives and communities and generations of wh\u0101nau and their well-being.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EYesterday, I was in Northland speaking to police and the district health board officials involved Te Ara Oranga. In conversation, we really tried to drill down into the reasons why decent but often downtrodden people get involved in drug dealing. It turns out, basically, that a lot of the time the gangs are offering our kids better prospects than we are. Put yourself in the shoes of rangatahi in a regional town that\u2019s been ravaged by the retreat of economic opportunity. Maybe there\u2019s been some trouble at home. Your future offers a fork in the road. On the one side you can grind, you can get a minimum-wage job, and try and scrape together enough to build a life. That is indeed the admirable path, and one that many take. But the other path is offered by the guys in cool clothes who ride up and down the street on flash motorcycles. They tell you that you can make money like they do, they recognise them, they\u2019ll give you a place to belong, and they offer what feels like winning the lottery. Gangs are offering our kids a greater and more meaningful future than we often are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EDrugs aren\u2019t just a justice issue; drugs are a social issue, they\u2019re an education issue, they are a mental health issue, they are a housing issue, and they are a well-being issue. We know that police are using their discretion at the moment when they\u2019re choosing whether or not to prosecute people who they find using drugs. Indeed, when they are choosing whether to prosecute those people dealing in small amounts at the bottom of the pyramid scheme designed to trap them, they choose not to. We can continue to shadow-box at the bottom of that supply chain for ever, but it won\u2019t make a dent in supply or demand, and we know that because the evidence proves it. Our failure over the last 40 years proves it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo we can demonise and alienate people like Tyrone, threatening them with a prison sentence or pushing them into so-called therapy that asks \u201CWhat\u2019s wrong with you?\u201D instead of \u201CWhat happened to you?\u201D We can watch that system fail time and again and we can watch people die. We will not address the drug crisis until we address trauma, isolation, inequality, opportunity, health, and education outcomes. We can stand here in this fancy Chamber and fight with words because it is far removed from the reality of drug-ravaged communities and it is far removed from the victims of the war on drugs and their funerals through addiction that didn\u2019t receive treatment, or gang violence that spreads like a virus when control is left to the black market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis bill represents a tangible change that will save lives through taking prosecution out of guesswork and creating a formal structure around it. It focuses our resources at the top of the supply chain, where substances come across our borders and cruel, greedy people make money off the lives of our poor and vulnerable. It will focus resources on treatment for people who use drugs and recognise that they are people. But we need to go further, because, as has been raised already by the deputy leader of National, the Misuse of Drugs Act is broken. We can to continue with these carve-outs for things like medicinal cannabis, for the synthetics crisis, for festival drug testing, but we all know that it is broken and it will take a lot more to address any of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to just correct the record, because none of this\u2014none of what I have said\u2014is pro-drugs, because if it is the outcome of our respective approaches that is the measure of the terminology with which they are dubbed, then the war on drugs as a result of its outcomes is the biggest pro-drugs movement we have ever seen. The Greens and I are on the side of compassion. We are on the side of evidence-based drug harm reduction. We are on the side of well-being. I commend this bill to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8528cccce434e0e9256f5c57f3af59c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8528cccce434e0e9256f5c57f3af59c\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call in this reasonably passionate debate, and I certainly cannot fault Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick for her passion; but, equally, exactly the same speech, and word for word that speech, could have been given in opposition to this bill, not in support of it, because she criticises parties that promote some kind of tough on crime, virtue signalling rhetoric, and then supports a bill that does exactly that\u2014that purports to get tough on crime. If the Minister of Justice would recall his interventions in the committee of the whole House, I think it was, or the second reading of my colleague Simeon Brown\u2019s member\u2019s bill, that does, effectively, a much better job at achieving the policy goals than this bill does, by taking the reality that all psychoactive substances are unlawful until they are licensed and made lawful, and then increasing the penalties to\u2014I think, after it came out of committee\u201414 years. That\u2019s tough on crime. That\u2019s the same kind of approach as the Government is now taking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut, despite that, the Minister of Justice stood in this House and said that that was a fundamentally flawed approach and that it should not be wasting the House\u2019s time with it, and now we have the Government doing exactly the same thing, only slower. It\u2019s going to take much, much longer to deploy the changes in the licensing arrangements and in the making unlawful, under the Misuse of Drugs Act, the sorts of new drugs that we know are going to come into the country once these derivatives become unlawful. So we will constantly chase our tails, whereas Mr Brown\u2019s approach was to start from the presumption that those substances are unlawful and make the supply of them a very serious offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, I fear there\u2019s a pattern emerging here, where the Minister of Health comes down with grand ideas but very little detail. That was certainly the case in the Misuse of Drugs (Medicinal Cannabis) Amendment Bill, when my colleague Dr Shane Reti came in with a vastly improved regime\u2014the Misuse of Drugs (Medicinal Cannabis) Amendment Bill (No 2), it was. Indeed, that happened after the Government\u2019s bill. Now the Government is coming in after another member\u2019s bill\u2014Simeon Brown\u2019s bill\u2014and is doing the same thing: taking a good bill and making it poorer. We could live with that. We could live with their approach if it wasn\u2019t for the second part of this bill. This is the area where I have a considerable concern about the calls by Ms Swarbrick to have these conversations and to treat it as a health issue and to somehow decriminalise these substances in the minds of the user, and yet that\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re doing here. By a de facto process, we are instructing the police, in law, not to prosecute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, this is a really interesting use of language, because the explanatory note and the words in the bill are quite heavily mismatched. The explanatory note talks about discretion and talks about the inconsequential nature of the offence as if it were the same as section 59(4) of the Crimes Act. Indeed, it\u2019s not, because when we get to the actual words in clause 6 of the bill, there is no discretion. The words are very clear: \u201Ca prosecution should not be brought unless it is required in the public interest.\u201D, and the public interest is not served if consideration \u201Cshould be given to whether a health-centred or therapeutic approach would be more beneficial.\u201D It would be hard to find a particular user of illicit substances that would not in some way benefit from a therapeutic approach or a health-centred approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s no reference here to recidivism, to the seriousness of the crime, to the fact that there may be other crimes committed around the possession offence\u2014perhaps burglaries, perhaps disorderly conduct. I can\u2019t imagine the police being confined to not prosecute here, but then going to much more minor offences and taking them before the courts. It seems absolutely ludicrous that they would now be forced by law to cherry-pick from a basket of offences that includes possession but not prosecute the possession. That just shows what a complete dog\u2019s breakfast this is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe Hon Paula Bennett talked about the fact that Portugal, which was mentioned by both her and Ms Swarbrick, took eight years to get to this point; it sounds and feels like the Minister of Health has taken eight minutes to get this point: \u201CLet\u2019s just apply discretion. They should not prosecute.\u201D\u2014as if that\u2019s going to be the salve for all drug possession ills. A defence counsel worth their salt will drive a bus through every single Misuse of Drugs Act possession offence from now until doomsday, once this bill is passed into law. It will be simply impossible to say, for any other relevant matters, if consideration should have been given to whether a health approach should apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThere is no diversion here. There is no requirement for that person to actually be sent to a therapeutic community or a health-centred approach or an addiction service\u2014no reference to that\u2014and the Prime Minister admitted today that there were going to be no more resources put into the health system as a consequence of this bill when it\u2019s passed. So a heavily, heavily, under stress health sector is not going to be able to respond to drug possession referrals that don\u2019t go before the courts but go before the health service. So we simply don\u2019t prosecute. We are in a legal and policy limbo as a consequence of this very lazy piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI still don\u2019t know now why on earth we\u2019re having a referendum next year on the possession and use of marijuana, because with one fell swoop the Government is decriminalising that. We\u2019re going to go through a whole charade, frankly, of trying to work out words in a referendum that is functionally obsolete once this bill is passed. What a waste of time\u2014what a big load of virtue-signalling nonsense. Let\u2019s have the conversation that Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick wants to have\u2014that\u2019s not what\u2019s happening here. It\u2019s as if we\u2019ve had it and it\u2019s all over, and that is a great shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022 data-id=\u0022e889982593ff4d8286df71135931d457\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e889982593ff4d8286df71135931d457\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s not surprising that the member who has just resumed his seat, Michael Woodhouse, didn\u2019t take his full 10-minute call. He didn\u2019t make it to the bell at eight minutes. What\u2019s not surprising, unfortunately, is that every time that I stand up in this House on bills such as this and the likes of this, the first thing I say is that it\u2019s quite obvious that the National Party are playing politics with this, and that is obvious for anyone that has been watching Simeon Brown\u2019s bill go through the House and the speeches from the National Party on why everyone should be supporting Simeon Brown\u2019s bill. And now they turn around and say they\u2019re not going to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EWhy? Well, there\u2019s a choice that we\u2019ve got here. Right now, the Government is putting a choice for the National Party. Does the National Party want the status quo or do they want change? Do they stand by what they have said over the last few weeks about how these psychoactive substances are such a scourge on society, or do they not? It\u2019s been made quite clear in the first couple of speeches that it\u2019s the latter. It\u2019s unfortunate that if it\u2019s not the latter, then they\u2019re playing politics. They should have a look in the mirror. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EI just had a comment from one of the backbenchers, I believe, from the National Party, and a couple of members who previously spoke from the National Party actually said it as well. They said that this Government didn\u2019t accept the third reading and we should\u2019ve gone through a third reading of Simeon Brown\u2019s bill. Then the question is: why did Simeon Brown postpone the third reading of his bill in the first place? If that\u2019s not the definition of playing politics, I don\u2019t know what is. Then they stand up here and accuse this side of the House of virtue signalling, when they\u2019re the ones that are doing the very thing. They\u2019re the ones that are doing the very thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EBefore I go into the detail of what this bill actually does, what it will achieve, I want to address a couple of the things that previous speakers have said. It\u2019s quite clear that Michael Woodhouse doesn\u2019t know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a320d28f509b452a8d3f9fd24a4a2192\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Refer to the member with the member\u2019s full name and title, please. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b191e6ed76eb4c3096d20a00a3a97391\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Michael Woodhouse doesn\u2019t know what he\u2019s talking about in regards to the current legislation and his own colleague\u2019s member\u2019s bill. He said that Simeon Brown\u2019s bill makes it a presumption that they\u2014\u201Cthey\u201D being the psychoactive substances\u2014are initially illegal until they\u2019re proven so. That\u2019s exactly what the Psychoactive Substances Act does now\u2014that\u2019s what it does now. Let\u2019s get this straight: there\u2019s only one thing that Simeon Brown\u2019s bill did. It changed one number. It went from two years, as a maximum sentence, to eight years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebed34845927457b8b4b83bd219621e9\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: It went to 14 in the end, didn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d8cb953779747c48222f725dbc4bc42\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: And why did it go to 14, Mr Woodhouse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8176c6d10fc4d5497479d6dff80cdd6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Can I just ask the member\u2014we\u2019ve traversed Mr Brown\u2019s bill quite well, and I understand the arguments. However\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264d6e9d34c92433bab0adc73109714a7\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: No, this is essential to this argument, Madam Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225af9a14a2f16455182b77e969b838ccf\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me, Mr Ball. You will not answer me back when I am making a ruling. I am asking you to return to the first reading of this bill. You\u2019ve made sufficient arguments as to the difference between this bill and Mr Brown\u2019s bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8f202a6a6c145f1b5deedc4242f6286\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: This is\u2014Madam, Assistant Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b93fd49913734a0f92bb979ec8dc2ae6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not asking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022708f4f1fe9ac4116aa6459f68c2e226e\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. This is essential information of the pathway of why this bill was in this House in the first place, and the entire premise of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6364df8e6b84e069062badacd855098\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: That is a debate. That has been a matter for debate, thank you, and I\u2019ll ask you to return to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d32ae443359b4e61af6a7706762ba8a7\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so Simeon prompted it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e9817ac7d59454bb16dfdc563075559\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I am making a ruling. We\u2019ll settle down. This is an important piece of legislation. I\u2019ll ask Darroch Ball to continue with his call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb72a25591c247d39b63f3683179970e\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. I would like to reiterate a few of the key points that this bill does achieve, and will achieve, once it\u2019s passed through this House. It does, as some of the National Party members have mentioned, take two of the most deadly strains that have killed upwards of 60 people in our country, and put them into class A. It does it for a couple of very good reasons\u2014which are not achieved in the current legislation, and would not be achieved if any other legislation, or changes to legislation, were put through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EFirst and foremost, it takes the maximum sentence for the dealers and suppliers to life in prison. How on earth the National Party\u2014who are beating their chests about being tough on crime, and especially these drug dealers and manufacturers; just like the speeches on their colleague\u2019s member\u2019s bill\u2014don\u2019t want to come down hard on crime with it, I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t know why they\u2019re not supporting this bill. It takes two of those most deadly, and puts them into the Misuse of Drugs Act as class A. What that also does\u2014and it is the reasoning and the logic behind why this Government wants to put them into the Misuse of Drugs Act\u2014is it gives powers and resources to the police and the judicial system. It gives the police the ability to search and to surveil those who they suspect are dealing, and the manufacturers of this deadly poison. That is not occurring in the status quo, and that would not occur under their member\u2019s bill. It is as simple as that. So, in turn, what the bill does is it actually gives the police the ability to stop the drugs getting on to the streets and into the hands of vulnerable people in the first instance. That is a key factor to this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EWe also are creating a temporary classification of class C1, which is, by the way, also a maximum of up to eight years in prison, which is equivalent to what Simeon Brown\u2019s bill was doing. I, for the life of me, do not understand why the National Party is not supporting this bill. Now, one key point that it sounds like the National Party is going to harp on about for the rest of the passage of this bill is this ridiculous notion that this is semi-decriminalisation. If it is anywhere near decriminalisation, then how on earth do the police still have the power to prosecute? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275abcdc1e33f42e7b2f1c9ac06daf4f4\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t. Read the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bb72782f0894960bec2f4ecc020a735\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: The police have the discretion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2956cc3108340d8b537af88c5eae4bb\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not discretion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289dd3aebd6d0450f80359173936d10be\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: The police have the discretion that they use now, and that\u2019s another key point. The National Party think, or they\u2019re spouting and trying to convince the public, that this legislation is bringing this brand new concept that the police are going to start using discretion and putting down a health pathway, and there\u2019s not the possibility of prosecution, like they don\u2019t do it already\u2014like they don\u2019t do it already. Those members over there know that. They\u2019re experienced enough to know that. They were in Government when the police were doing exactly the same thing. The police want this in legislation to remove any doubt as to what their role is\u2014because it is solidifying in legislation what the police already do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003ENow, that says one of two things: one, like I said before, the National Party are playing politics with this; or, two, they don\u2019t listen to the police. They don\u2019t know what the police want, because police want the certainty in legislation of what they are already practising\u2014what they are already practising. This is about giving the police what they want, which is certainty in legislation\u2014certainty in legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EThe important note under this topic is the fact that under current laws, synthetics and other dangerous drugs are killing people. They\u2019re fuelling crime and devastating our communities. The status quo would not solve that problem, nor would Simeon Brown\u2019s bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EThere was a question asked by the Hon Paula Bennett about how a police officer would know who was dealing, and who was supplying, and who was using\u2014where would that limit be? It\u2019s in legislation already\u2014it\u2019s in the Misuse of Drugs Act already. The irony of it all is that the current legislation, the Psychoactive Substances Act, doesn\u2019t have the limits. So the argument that Paula Bennett is making is moot. She\u2019s actually arguing against the status quo, because the police have no idea and no measurement whatsoever on who\u2019s using, and who\u2019s supplying, and who\u2019s dealing in regards to quantity. Bringing it into the Misuse of Drugs Act gives that certainty to the police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EI am disappointed and a little bit surprised, to be honest, that the National Party isn\u2019t supporting this bill. By the sounds of it from the two speeches that have already gone through, they are in support of the vast majority of the bill and they only have a question around one sentence in the bill, or one piece of the bill that they believe is ambiguous. If that was the case and if they stand behind what they\u2019ve been pounding on about, about psychoactive drugs and the scourge that they are in society, they\u2019d take it through to select committee. I challenge any member that\u2019s going to stand up today in this first reading to give a clear answer about why that\u2019s not going to occur\u2014why the National Party won\u2019t take it through to select committee to debate it, to listen to the experts, to listen to those who have been affected by this, to listen to the families. Come up with a straight answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will continue to support this bill, and we\u2019re happy to support this bill, because it\u2019s a bill that not only targets the dealers and manufacturers of this poison but also brings some certainty into legislation about the role of the police and how we can treat those who are affected by this poison differently. Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002232c68623bdee4a66bdface1b4b2a1d28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232c68623bdee4a66bdface1b4b2a1d28\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to stand and take a call on this, the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill. If I could just start by debunking a myth\u2014and I want to acknowledge the Green Party member Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick. She made a genuinely passionate speech in this House about the bill, but there are a couple of things that she raised. The first one: when we talk about the failure of the war on drugs\u2014I just don\u2019t accept that. The war on drugs is tough and it was here last decade, the decade before, and the decade before that, and we\u2019ll be continuing to deal with the issues that harmful substances and drugs bring to our communities. It\u2019s something that is not going to go away overnight. That is a fact. It\u2019s not a war that\u2019s been lost; it\u2019s an ongoing war. It\u2019s difficult, it\u2019s hard; it doesn\u2019t mean we throw up our hands and say, \u201CIt\u2019s too difficult. We\u2019re just going to turn this into a health issue now.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EOf 9,000, or 10,000, there\u2019s about 25 people in our prison system at the moment that are there, predominantly, because they have been caught with class A drugs for personal use. So the amount of people languishing in our prison service\u2014because we keep hearing from the Government that this is a big driver of the legislation, and the changes that are being made relate to people languishing in our prison system because they\u2019re being captured for personal use of drugs\u2014just does not stack up. The facts do not support that. It is not true. The fact of the matter is most people are in our prisons because they\u2019ve committed violent offences, they\u2019ve committed property-related offences, they\u2019ve committed multiple offences with, normally, a long line of victims lining up behind them. It\u2019s true: a lot of that offending is created through drug use. The use of drugs\u2014methamphetamine, especially\u2014you could probably tie back into a lot of the violent-type offending that we\u2019ve seen in our communities in New Zealand at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThis bill makes such a fundamental change. I hope that the last speaker, Darroch Ball, because I think that he is genuine about wanting to make sure that New Zealand is a safer place and that we don\u2019t actually introduce more harm into our communities, really looks and really studies this bill, because the funny thing is that 90 percent of the bill\u2014actually, the bill is pretty good when you\u2019re dealing with psychoactive substances, without a doubt. We\u2019ve seen way too much harm, we\u2019ve seen way too many deaths, and actually it sends a positive message that I think the whole Parliament would support in terms of we\u2019re going to get harder on dealers, the manufacturers, organised crime, the gangs, the ones that are peddling this stuff. They\u2019ll look at that and they\u2019ll say, \u201CYeah, OK. Parliament\u2019s getting tougher.\u201D You know, they\u2019ll note that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut the one thing they\u2019ll really note\u2014do you want to know they\u2019re really going to have a look at? They\u2019re going to have a look at clause 6 and they\u2019re going to say, \u201CRight, our customer base\u2014what does it mean for the people that are actually buying the drugs off us?\u201D What it means, if this bill passes, is this Government is going to send a very clear message that it\u2019s going to be much harder for our front-line police officers to be able to arrest someone that is using or in possession of a class A drug. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EFundamentally, as a country, we\u2019ve said that methamphetamine, cocaine, heroin, and loose-leaf cannabis are actually harmful. We don\u2019t want people taking them. We don\u2019t want people using them, so we\u2019ve made laws to send a very clear message to us as a country. And you know what? For most law-abiding citizens, most law-abiding Kiwis, that\u2019s enough. Just being told by our Government, by our Parliament, by our country that they\u2019re dangerous and you shouldn\u2019t take them\u2014that\u2019s enough. But what we are starting to say here, what we\u2019re starting to say in this bill, is that, actually, the threshold now that the police have to reach is much higher. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ELet me read new section 7(5) in clause 6 again: \u201CTo avoid doubt, it is affirmed that there is a discretion to prosecute for an offence against this section\u201D. The police have always had discretion, right? To say that you need to standardise that, that\u2019s a stupid proposition, and I\u2019m sure that I\u2019d get agreement from my colleague on the other side. When I was policing in central Auckland, I used a very different type of policing style to when I was policing in Ruat\u014Dria on the East Coast in New Zealand. Those powers of discretion will be used in a different way. To try to say you need some ridiculous statement about standardising those through legislation, that\u2019s the stupidest thing I\u2019ve heard in a long, long time. You cannot do it. Every district commander around this country will have their own plan and they\u2019ll be dealing with their own issues that relate directly to that area that they\u2019re policing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIt says that a \u201Cprosecution should not be brought unless it is required within the public interest.\u201D It says that it should not be brought. Then it goes on to say, \u201C(6) When considering whether a prosecution is required in the public interest, in addition to any other relevant matters, consideration should be given to whether a health-centred or therapeutic approach would be more beneficial.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s think about that. I can\u2019t think, in my own 14 years\u2014actually, I\u2019d go broader and say 20 years\u2014in law enforcement, both here in New Zealand and overseas, of ever having dealt with one case of drug use where a health-based or therapeutic approach would not be beneficial. It\u2019s ridiculous. So what are the defence lawyers in New Zealand going to see? They are going to see that this Government here has just given them a free licence. You\u2019ve just handed them a ticket to get it into court, to defend the case, and say, \u201CActually, officer A and officer B, they didn\u2019t consider a health-based or therapeutic approach for our client.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThis is setting the bar so high now, in terms of a front-line police officer being able to take action and use their powers of arrest that we\u2019ve given them, that I believe, and I think this will happen, that it\u2019s going to become tougher and tougher for them to deal with these cases on the front line. What the dealers are going to say, what the people that are manufacturing are going to say to their clients, their customers\u2014the ones that they want addicted to their product\u2014is, \u201CDon\u2019t worry about it, guys. The Parliament\u2019s just given you a free ticket. They\u2019ve set the bar much higher now for you to be arrested and charged with possession of a class A drug, with methamphetamine.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what we\u2019re saying. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing. And if we\u2019re not, then I\u2019d like someone to stand and take a call and actually address that and prove me wrong and tell me why that\u2019s not going to happen, because if you read clause 6, that\u2019s exactly what this bill is proposing. It is quite simply proposing that now the New Zealand police, the front-line police officers, should not bring a prosecution unless it\u2019s in the public interest, and their decision should be based on whether they can take a health-centred or a therapeutic approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESomeone get up and give me one example where you couldn\u2019t say you could take a health-based or a therapeutic approach to someone that\u2019s got\u2014give me one example. That\u2019s the threshold that you\u2019re setting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297878f5ce6c2497fa31e173f37e0e80c\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: Nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c65b5cff9dc340d8b8c244da758a7ee6\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the threshold. You haven\u2019t thought this through, Mr Ball\u2014you have not thought this through. Give me one example where that threshold would not be met for a police officer that\u2019s trying to make decisions on the ground at the time. So I\u2019m willing to hear if you can give me one. I don\u2019t think you\u2019ll come up with one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI certainly, in my experience, have never seen where there\u2019s someone that wouldn\u2019t benefit from a health-based approach. We all want a health-based approach for people. When they come into our prison system, we want to make sure that they get the therapy, the support that they need to get them off their addictions, to get them back into the community, and to be, you know, integrated back into the communities they came from. But stand up and give me one example where that wouldn\u2019t apply, because that\u2019s what you\u2019ve said in this bill. So they\u2019re going to fail\u2014they\u2019re going to fail\u2014right from the start, which means the suppliers of these drugs have now got a whole lot of customers that you have just given immunity from prosecution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022625cf74d81704bfb8565538b139a68a5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Don\u2019t bring me into it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d84859b8ba2141d8ab763019d8b36b85\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Assistant Speaker. Mr Ball, by supporting this bill they have got, effectively, immunity from prosecution. It\u2019s to be a great marketing tool for them. They can go out and say, \u201CCome and buy our methamphetamine\u2014come and buy our methamphetamine! The Parliament have just legislated that the police now have got a much higher threshold that they have to try and get past to actually arrest you. So it\u2019s far less likely that you\u2019ll be caught and it\u2019s far less likely that you\u2019ll be prosecuted.\u201D So it\u2019s a great marketing tool that you\u2019ve just provided to the people that actually manufacture this stuff. If you don\u2019t agree with me, stand up, take a call, and explain to me why that won\u2019t happen. It\u2019s perverse. You\u2019re creating a perverse outcome in the bill that you\u2019ve brought to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c461c2e831f42009cbe2a7fc295dd12\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Again, please don\u2019t bring me into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff391dfecea946be954707f2306d1309\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Assistant Speaker, you\u2019re right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo anyway, this is just the start of the debate. Unfortunately, it\u2019s gone to the Health Committee, but, you know, the Hon Michael Woodhouse will do an outstanding job with that team. There\u2019s a big justice part of this. It\u2019s been quite clever, the way it\u2019s sort of been slipped through with, you know, a clause in here that is going to make a massive fundamental change in the way that our police are able to actually police not just Class C drugs but Class A and Class B drugs as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI think, just finally, the point that the Hon Paula Bennett made was we\u2019re not ready for this. Get up and explain to us, if they\u2019re going to refer them to health services: where are they going in our communities? There is nowhere for them to go. Actually explain to us how that\u2019s going to work. It\u2019s a bad bill for that reason, and we\u2019re not supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4958be6680949d6b4b83ad7ad349f41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4958be6680949d6b4b83ad7ad349f41\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and speak in support of this bill, because of the huge impact that synthetic drugs are having in our community. Having worked in A \u0026amp; E in the past, I was just reflecting on a story from Radio New Zealand in October last year. What they were talking about was the struggles that Christchurch Hospital was having in dealing with synthetic drug admissions. They interviewed an emergency department specialist, and he was just describing what he was seeing, you know: patients coming in with seizures, some of them needing CPR on arrival. He was talking about patients being in trance-like states, and just the agitation and how, you know, on occasion they\u2019d have to call the police in to deal with that agitation and that behaviour, and also the impact that that was having not only on patients and their families but also on emergency department staff. He also talked about the fact that, at the time of the interview, they had had a couple of patients there in ICU, in intensive care, and they\u2019d already been there for two weeks and they were still seriously unwell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThe problem we\u2019ve got is that, you know, since mid-2017, we\u2019ve had at least 50 to 55 deaths from synthetic drugs. Basically, this has to stop. What this bill does is it provides that balanced approach, because what it simultaneously does is it provides greater enforcement and penalties for those who are importing, manufacturing, or supplying dangerous synthetic drugs. These drugs are wreaking havoc in our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EIt also takes a health-based approach, because what it does is it affirms police\u2019s ability to have discretion, when they\u2019re considering whether to prosecute, if a health-based approach would be better. I think when you listen to the stories of people talking about their experiences with getting hooked on this stuff and just the huge impact\u2014once they\u2019re addicted\u2014it has on their lives, and what they have to go through to fuel and fund their habits. This is a really, really important balanced approach to a very significant issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EI just want to go through a little bit of the three key things that this bill actually does. The first thing is it reclassifies the two major synthetic drugs that have been linked to these recent deaths as class A drugs. For those not really familiar with the classification of class A, these are the drugs which pose a very high risk of harm either to individuals or to society by the impacts that they cause. So by classifying them as class A, what it\u2019s going to mean is that police and customs have much stronger search and seizure powers, so they can intercept the drugs before they hit or cause harm in the community. It also means much tougher penalties for those who are supplying or manufacturing the drugs, and that\u2019s up to life imprisonment. So this is a very significant enforcement in terms of those that are bringing this stuff into our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThe other thing, though, is that these drugs are always evolving, and so what the bill does is it creates a temporary drug classification called class C1 for new and emerging drugs. What it means is that once something\u2019s classified as C1, police can come in and they\u2019ve got the search and seizure tools that they need to interrupt the supply. That\u2019s particularly important where we\u2019re seeing, you know, clusters\u2014some of the cases we\u2019ve seen where you get clusters of hospital admissions or deaths\u2014allowing people to come in and take that health approach and to interrupt that before we get further severe harm to our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EHow it works is it allows the Minister, by order published in the Gazette, to specify any substance as a temporary class drug if they\u2019re satisfied that the substance poses, or may pose, a risk of harm to individuals or society. The undertaking is that that will only be a temporary classification so that it lasts for up to one year. The understanding there is that in that meantime, the Minister will go away and he or she will seek further advice as Minister on what the final classification of that drug should be, so that eventually it may end up being classified as A, B, or C as appropriate. If they need more time, then you\u2019re allowed one extra renewal of that. That\u2019s critically important as we start to deal with, you know, emerging threats within our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThe thing that people have been talking about a lot is the health-based approach and the fact that what this bill does is just affirm what is happening in the community already, and that police should have discretion in terms of prosecuting or not prosecuting someone if they\u2019ve got drugs for personal use. So the understanding there is that if there\u2019s no public interest in prosecution, then we shouldn\u2019t go ahead, but that when they\u2019re weighing that up, it\u2019s important to consider whether that health-based approach would be more appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EAs I was saying before, a large number of people were talking about the sheer addictiveness of these substances and the lengths that they\u2019ll go to to acquire these substances, to the detriment of their own and their family\u2019s lives and well-being. So, as part of this as well, this is why the Government has talked about putting extra resourcing into addiction treatment services but also extra resourcing in terms of those emergency surge responses, if we are indeed seeing these clusters of hospitalisations and deaths occurring in the community. So, basically, the wording is: \u201CWhen considering whether a prosecution is required in the public interest, in addition to [anything else, they should be considering] whether a health-centred or therapeutic approach would be more beneficial.\u201D So this is not decriminalisation by default; what this is is just affirming the discretion that\u2019s already happening in the community. It\u2019s affirming that in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThe other issue, though, is to avoid that perverse incentive that may be created by making people switch from one class or group of drugs to another in terms of thinking about that discretion of prosecution. This will apply to all drugs, not just the synthetics, and I think that that\u2019s important in terms of making sure that we\u2019ve got a balanced approach. But, as I say, it\u2019s about reaffirming the existing discretion that\u2019s already there. Police can still prosecute if they think that that is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESo, just summing up, this is a huge issue in our community\u2014it affects many, many families\u2014and what this bill is doing is taking that really balanced approach. By classifying two of these synthetics as class A drugs, it\u2019s giving the police a lot more ability to, basically, search and seize, and also it\u2019s imposing much heavier penalties on those involved in the manufacture and supply of these drugs. But, from a health perspective, it\u2019s actually channelling people much more to that health service delivery in the context of addiction and treatment services. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab6226189ae34bebb02c47c9f0409bcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab6226189ae34bebb02c47c9f0409bcd\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Assistant Speaker. This is a shocker of a bill. It\u2019s the bill that you get when you actually really want to decriminalise drugs but you\u2019re just not quite sure where the public is at on it and you\u2019re not going to go quite that far. So, in other words, we\u2019ve got this totally inadequate halfway house where they can look like they\u2019re cracking down on the suppliers and the users of drugs\u2014or the suppliers at least\u2014in the first part of the bill, and then we\u2019ve got the sop to the Green Party in the second part of the bill, which claims to affirm that the police have discretion around prosecution for individual use and possession. So it\u2019s a kind of halfway-house bill. It\u2019s a very strange beast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u2019s speech actually summarised exactly how strange this approach is, because, on the one hand, we had Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, in her contribution, heralding the brave new world of drug decriminalisation and how this is part of a sea change to the way in which New Zealand deals with drugs, and the war on drugs is a failure, and the Green Party are at the vanguard of this health-based approach that the Government\u2019s going to adopt\u2014all very powerful words, some of which I happen to agree with. But then, if you listen to Darroch Ball\u2019s speech, that was a speech in which he was at pains to play down that this bill does anything. He kept saying over and over again, and quite contemptuously towards National Party members, that the police already have discretion. \u201CWhat are you talking about?\u201D he said. \u201CThis is just the status quo.\u201D He kept saying, over and over again, \u201CThere\u2019s nothing to see here\u2014nothing new. This is just the police. They already have this power. They already have this discretion.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWell, both statements can\u2019t be true. It can\u2019t be, on the one hand, the brave new world of drug decriminalisation, in which New Zealand\u2019s in the vanguard of adopting a health-based approach to drug policy, and simultaneously the status quo, in which nothing is changing and the police just have exactly the same power and exactly the same discretion as they had before. Both can\u2019t be true, and it\u2019s incumbent upon Government members to sort out exactly what\u2019s going on here. Is this the brave new world, or is this just what we have always done, which is to allow the police to prosecute in the public interest? Because Darroch Ball kept saying it\u2019s exactly what we have now; there is no change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a curious thing, isn\u2019t it, when you have to legislate to affirm something. Parliament doesn\u2019t actually do that. Clause 6 in this bill is very strange: \u201CTo avoid doubt\u201D\u2014and Parliament does that sometimes because Parliament wants to make very clear, but it doesn\u2019t often say things like this: \u201CTo avoid doubt, it is affirmed\u201D. It is affirmed? No, Parliament legislates to do something. Parliament legislates a change to the law. Parliament legislates things that are not currently the status quo. It puts the later state into being\u2014that\u2019s what Parliament does. Parliament doesn\u2019t, in a separate piece of legislation, affirm an existing law. It\u2019s a very peculiar phrase. So maybe Darroch Ball\u2019s right; maybe it is actually just the status quo. Maybe we\u2019re just affirming the status quo. Maybe he is right. But then, of course, we get this other phrase: \u201Cprosecution should not be brought unless it is required in the public interest.\u201D We\u2019ve had this interesting discussion between Mr Mitchell and Mr Woodhouse about exactly what change that will create. Then, of course, we get new section 7(6) around \u201Chealth-centred or therapeutic approach\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWell, this bill is going to go to a committee. We\u2019re going to invigilate and investigate those issues very closely at the select committee, because, on the one hand, we may be making a massive change\u2014certainly what the Greens think we\u2019re doing\u2014and on the other hand, apparently, we\u2019re just not doing anything. Apparently, we\u2019re just putting in place what exists right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball says the police want this. Well, I draw him to the remarks of the Police Association. Now, the Police Association represent police members. Well, he might say the police want it\u2014well, police top brass might be OK with it. I suspect that\u2019s actually not true. We\u2019re waiting for the advice on that. But I\u2019ll read to you the statement of the Police Association: \u201C[This] has an air of drug reform on the fly, rather than a more considered debate and informed legislation. I am worried that by codifying police discretion the Government is potentially asking officers to be the spearhead of decriminalisation.\u201D I note a former Police Association president over the other side of the House, and I suspect Mr O\u2019Connor agrees with every single word I\u2019ve just said, because, let\u2019s face it; what the Government is doing is subcontracting out, to police officers, decriminalisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMy message to the Government is: if you want to have a debate about drug decriminalisation, and if you want to have a debate about making sure that people who are addicted to heroin are not prosecuted, OK, maybe there\u2019s a role for that debate. Maybe there is a debate we need to have about that. But to do it in this dishonest, halfway-house solution, where you put police officers at the front line of drug decriminalisation\u2014frankly, police officers who are under-equipped and ill-equipped to deal with the hard, vexed decisions around this\u2014then you are mistaken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI haven\u2019t even mentioned, as my other colleagues have, the lack of support out there in the community around community treatment and addiction services. Jacinda Ardern was asked \u201CWill there be more money in the Budget on Monday?\u201D by Jack Tame. She was asked \u201CWill there be more money in the Budget for these much-needed services?\u201D, and she refused to commit to it. So what we\u2019ve got is a situation where the Government is going to subcontract out to police their attempts to decriminalise drugs, and they\u2019re not even going to provide the services to make sure that all the people who aren\u2019t going to be prosecuted, and all the people who are going to be referred to these drug services, are going to have the necessary treatment and support that they need. It is a disgrace. This Government should be honest about what it\u2019s actually trying to do and have the legitimate debate, rather than try and subcontract it out to the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3ec685cd60840b0b1d3a608e73505ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3ec685cd60840b0b1d3a608e73505ce\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0b13a83e24e42cf95c9b145396cb9b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0b13a83e24e42cf95c9b145396cb9b4\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The hyperbole\u2014the disaster that is coming our way\u2014is breathtaking. Let us just for one moment talk for a small moment about the discretion that our very able Police Force currently have. The discretion sits in law and also in operation\u2014it is a normal process. Let us also look at what it should refer to\u2014personal use. It is the personal use of drugs\u2014the smallest amount of drugs that a person might be found with\u2014in which this description applies. Let us not talk about these huge and amazing things. This is what the police do on a daily basis, as we well know. This piece of legislation very clearly ensures that the police know that they have that ability to do that. So whether they are actually making a decision or not is based on what they always do, but this makes it very clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ELet us go back to the purpose of this bill. The purpose of this bill is around the health of people. It is around a compassionate approach. It is important that we don\u2019t continue to make this huge issue about someone who is caught with a small amount of illegal substances. They are actually needing help as opposed to being prosecuted. So as a consequence, I commend this Government, and the Minister of Health, for changing the conversation\u2014which the Opposition has tried to switch back\u2014from penalties and punishment to viewing addiction as a health issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EHowever, this legislation proposes to get ahead of a very fast-moving drug manufacturer industry. Let\u2019s be clear\u2014let\u2019s be clear about the harm that these drugs do. Let us be clear. None of us\u2014none of us here in this House or across the country\u2014believe that these are good things or things that we should continue to support. Interrupting the supply chain is so important, and it is a really important part of this bill that we do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EBefore I speak to the bill in detail, I thought I would discuss, from a perspective of someone who\u2019s worked on the front line, around working with women who came to our Tauranga Women\u2019s Refuge and who had been impacted by synthetics. Remember the time when legal highs occurred and we had a plethora of men who switched from marijuana to synthetics? What happened was we had a floodgates situation occur. We had women flocking to refuge in abject fear\u2014the paranoia that was around the poverty driven by the purchasing of these legal highs. Then, of course, it became illegal again, and the addiction remained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe know that there has been purported to be about 55 deaths from this\u2014this filth, let\u2019s be honest\u2014filth, this disgusting and, I guess, soul-destroying drug. A scientist friend of mind told me that using this drug is like huffing flyspray. It\u2019s poison that\u2019s spread on weeds, and it\u2019s pressed into drugs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EMake no mistake, while our Government is absolutely focused on enabling people to break their shackles of addiction, we are very clear that people who profit from such misery must face those consequences, and this bill, therefore, supports and does both. It\u2019s not a mismatch. It\u2019s not that we are not clear about this process. It is about, on one hand, a health response, a well-being response, and a response of compassion and addiction and, on the other hand, stopping the scourge that is manufacture, import, and supply. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca8187faa9144cdfbb38c2cc18c29563\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca8187faa9144cdfbb38c2cc18c29563\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Matt King\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022 data-id=\u00221b4e5de65bfd4d559ca9711ac2d5a090\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b4e5de65bfd4d559ca9711ac2d5a090\u0022\u003EMATT KING (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Assistant Speaker. This bill, it\u2019s the good, the bad, and the ugly. It\u2019s good in one respect, but why is it before the Health Committee and not the Justice Committee? It\u2019s all about criminality, drugs, and giving police codifying instructions. It should be before the experts on the Justice Committee. But, for some reason, they\u2019ve slipped it through into health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EBut the good, the bad, and the ugly. The good part of it\u2014the good part of it is Simeon Brown\u2019s contribution to this bill about psychoactive substances. That\u2019s the scourge on society, that\u2019s the killer. So that part of the bill we support, so don\u2019t get us wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EThe part of the bill that I have concerns about\u2014the bad part of it\u2014is the way that clause 6, inserting section 7, has been snuck into this bill. This should be a stand-alone part of it, and I\u2019ve heard speakers from the other side of the House talk about how the police have discretion\u2014and, yes, we do have discretion\u2014but what this is doing is it\u2019s creating a document that a defence lawyer is going to pull out in court and point to and get every one of his clients off. It\u2019s going to be a defence lawyer\u2019s dream, and I am dead against that\u2014I\u2019m dead against that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019ve got is a bit of legislation here that is de facto decriminalisation. It\u2019s a poorly thought-out law. I\u2019ve seen a few poorly thought-out laws brought before this Parliament by this Government. A 500-page Supplementary Order Paper after select committee, just before we decide what the bill\u2019s going to be\u2014I mean, this is crazy. So this is the sort of thing they\u2019re doing. So it says here, \u201Caffirm the existing discretion to prosecute for possession \u2026 for all drugs\u201D\u2014for all drugs. That is de facto decriminalisation and, hey, if that\u2019s where we\u2019re going, where\u2019s your mandate? This is a big deal. Take it to the people and have a referendum on it. But this Government is just sneaking this through, and this is going to have unintended consequences. Dealers are going to roll around town\u2014because dealers and users are interchangeable\u2014and they\u2019ll have small amounts in their possession to avoid prosecution. The police will not be arresting\u2014it will get around amongst people that the police won\u2019t arrest for possession of drugs, basically. It\u2019s going to be de facto decriminalisation. It\u2019s wrong. We don\u2019t support it. The consequences haven\u2019t been thought through. I advise caution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022282bb85059f94f48963e17a3be7fb879\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022282bb85059f94f48963e17a3be7fb879\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E I sit listening to this debate and politicians on either side of the House, and I think there\u2019s no one who\u2019s participating in this debate, whatever their political hue, who doesn\u2019t want to do the right thing. I think those of us who are MPs would have to walk around with our eyes closed not to see the effect of drugs on the day-to-day lives of so many of those who we represent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EIt causes me to think about my own time in the police in particular, and I acknowledge my two ex-police colleagues Matt King and the Hon Mark Mitchell. I sit here thinking \u201CWhat in my time in police\u201D\u2014and I challenge those two members to do the same thing\u2014\u201Chas really made a difference at any stage to the amount and use and the effects of drugs in our time in police?\u201D Actually, there were two things that did make a significant difference. As a younger police officer, I policed in Wellington here. We had a major heroin problem, and that manifested in a large number of overdose deaths. That\u2019s generally when you know you\u2019ve got a heroin problem\u2014it\u2019s pretty much measured by the number of overdose deaths.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EWellington had a major problem here in the late 1970s\u2014I\u2019m showing my age there slightly\u2014and there was considerable change to the legislation. It became life imprisonment, the effect of being caught dealing with that, and there were considerable powers given to police to deal with it. None of those things made any difference. The only thing that made any difference was actually when the Mr Asia syndicate collapsed, which had become a very successful international conglomerate at that stage. They had become so efficient at bringing heroin into New Zealand that all the opposition had gone, and then when they did collapse, when their supply lines collapsed, there was no heroin in New Zealand. If you had an addiction in New Zealand, basically you had to go cold turkey or you got on a plane and went to Australia, which is the time when we got a bad reputation in Australia as New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe second thing that made a difference\u2014this is probably a little bit more pertinent to this debate\u2014was in about 2011 or 2012, when we did have a major problem with synthetic cannabis. I was, as has been mentioned by one of the previous speakers on the other side, the president of the Police Association at the time. We were being inundated by complaints, particularly from youth aid officers around the country who were concerned that they were unable to do anything about this drug\u2014what it was causing, the problems it was causing, particularly with young people. Parents were coming to their offices, saying, \u201CYou\u2019ve got to do something about this.\u201D It was actually pretty much legal at that time. It was legal and it was being supplied legally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EVirtually all the supply of synthetic cannabis at that time was through local dairies, local legal-high shops, and you could actually get hold of it legally. As a result, when the Psychoactive Substances Act went through, it was actually, in the short term, incredibly successful. Those who were supplying at the time were legitimate people\u2014people who didn\u2019t want to fall foul of the law, although they had perhaps been legally adventurous up until that time\u2014so they got out of the business, and, actually, my phone stopped ringing. It was actually, in the short term, for about a year, not an issue. It became an issue again. My understanding is that the Christchurch earthquake and the influx of people down there who were seeking to avoid drug-testing at the time brought about the increase again, and a market that had virtually collapsed was reinvigorated, and that is the market we have now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s just important to remember what the difference with synthetic cannabis is, because that is one important difference with it. It is a class of molecules that bind to the cannabinoid receptors in the body, which essentially means it\u2019s a chemical that does the same thing as cannabis. It does it, and, without going into the medical details, it actually is a considerably more potent drug. It causes many more issues\u2014unknown issues, because it hasn\u2019t ever really been properly studied, despite the fact it was actually invented by a scientist in, I think, South Carolina, who actually did it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo those are the only two times that anything we\u2019ve done has actually made a difference. Actually, I do remember the big debate that took place when heroin was being made\u2014the life imprisonment for dealing it. There was a considerable debate, if you look at Hansard at the time, and, really, I have to say, as a police officer at the time, it made no difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThat brings me to now. When we look at the situation we find ourselves in today, particularly with synthetic cannabis, no one\u2014and, again, I come back to the fact we all hear \u201CNo, we have a problem.\u201D There\u2019s probably no electorate here that hasn\u2019t had a death or someone seriously impaired or impacted on by the drug, so we really do want to do something about it. I think that if we\u2019re honest with ourselves\u2014again, I would invite the Opposition to think about this: do they really believe that anything that only deals with the sentencing option of it is going to make any difference? I have to say, I don\u2019t. I\u2019m not saying that sentencing, good use of the courts, and good use of prison are not actually good tools in dealing with these things\u2014sensible use of the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThis is what brings me back to this discretion argument. I can understand some of the concerns being expressed on the opposite side of the House around this discretion argument, but what discretion does allow\u2014and I\u2019ll take you back. The Hon Paula Bennett mentioned that nowhere in any legislation are police given this sort of discretion. Actually, she\u2019s wrong, because it is in the anti-smacking bill. I know from my personal involvement in it that the Rt Hon John Key was responsible for allowing that bill to get across the line, because he introduced as an amendment the whole discretionary part of it. It\u2019s that discretionary part of it that has actually allowed that bill to work, because what it means is that when police do take a case into court, the courts know that it has already passed a threshold test and that they would not be there unless it was serious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EWhat discretion allows is that police still can use\u2014and, look, believe me, there are those who believe that the courts are terrible. Actually, the good use, the sensible use of sentencing\u2014the sensible use of imprisonment, even\u2014can actually be a very good tool, because what it does is gives leverage. So where the warnings haven\u2019t worked, where someone has gone through a system where they have been not prosecuted and continue to do so, if they then end up in court, the effect of that is the court will understand that we\u2019ve got a case that we can deal with seriously, that it has gone through some sort of threshold system on its way to where we are. Now, you may say that in other systems that have been introduced, there have been pre-charge warnings, diversions, and various other things. These are, actually, simply other versions of the same thing. What it does, particularly with drugs, those that we\u2019re dealing with\u2014so, often, having an encounter with the police, having an encounter with the authorities, is enough to deter people from what they will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ELook, just think of this addition to the Act, or the bill as it stands at the moment, as something that actually does give a tool that if used properly\u2014look, I can understand those that would be afraid that it may be misused. But, actually, what it does\u2014and those two members opposite who have been in the police will understand that the most effective interventions that they\u2014and I know, myself\u2014have been able to employ are often those that involve considerable discretion. I personally am opposed to prescriptive sentencing. I think we should leave much more discretion to our judges, because prescriptive sentencing, which hasn\u2019t worked overseas\u2014I look at those that go to the Northern Territory. See what happened when they brought in mandatory imprisonment for property offences, and see how long that lasted and the perverse outcomes that that actually brought about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EWhat I would say in relation to this is that this is something that so much else of what we have done hasn\u2019t worked. I mean, we have a major P problem. Again, as someone who has been and watched and been part of seeing that P problem increase, and seeing now the involvement in organised crime\u2014nothing that has been done along the way, unfortunately, has made any difference. One thing that didn\u2019t make it, that was reclassified: we banned pseudoephedrine sales. There\u2019s been attempts\u2014genuine attempts\u2014on the way to actually try and reduce the impact of methamphetamine on our society, and I have to say it hasn\u2019t worked. Even Matt King, in his own electorate\u2014when we had a seizure of hundreds of kilos of methamphetamine on the beach in the Far North, it made no difference to the price and availability of methamphetamine on our streets. That\u2019s how rife, how rampant, our methamphetamine problem is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EEssentially, I would have to say that nothing anyone has done or suggested has made any difference. The time comes when we do have to look at alternative methods, because simply, I have to say and persuade the Hon Mark Mitchell, saying the war on drugs\u2014look, to sit here and say it has worked; I\u2019m afraid that we may disagree on many things, but that\u2019s something that I don\u2019t think anyone looking at it would say that that has worked. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba4fe1d7c25f4aa795b3601bc4bd9cdb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba4fe1d7c25f4aa795b3601bc4bd9cdb\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak to this bill, and I am wanting to, in this contribution, speak to three points. The first point would be the aspects of the bill that deal with synthetic cannabis, and in that respect I think across the House there is a large degree of common thinking. Personally, I\u2019d like to acknowledge Simeon Brown for the work he\u2019s done, and I believe that the contribution he\u2019s brought to this discussion has been substantive in many areas and very thorough\u2014indeed, more thorough than parts of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe second point I\u2019d like to talk to is the way that this bill starts with synthetic cannabis and then morphs to cover all drugs in various parts of the bill. We were very happy to be supportive of synthetic cannabis, but it\u2019s over embracing with encompassing all drugs that makes that a problem for us. As my third point, I too would then like to talk to section 7 in clause 6 and this issue of discretion\u2014the ability for police, or, more specifically, that police should not prosecute for possession and use in three instances: when a health approach might be beneficial, when a therapeutic approach might be beneficial, or with what the legislation says, \u201Cany other relevant matters\u201D. I\u2019d echo the point: when would a health approach not be beneficial? I can\u2019t imagine any circumstance like that. When would a therapeutic approach for someone who has possession and use not be beneficial? I can\u2019t imagine a circumstance of that type and this very nebulous \u201Cany other relevant matters\u201D. So it\u2019s very easy to see why we can consider this as decriminalisation\u2014I mean, those are all the arguments why you would not prosecute, and there\u2019s no instance, therefore, when we would not prosecute. That is decriminalisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EBut it actually gets better, because in the regulatory impact statement it confirms that this is decriminalisation. So let me move on to that. Let\u2019s look at, sort of, how well-crafted this bill is and whether it achieves its objectives. In the very first point in the regulatory impact statement is the quality assurance summary, which says, \u201CThe panel considers that [these] Synthetic Drugs Response Regulatory Impact [statement] \u2026 does not meet the Quality Assurance criteria.\u201D Well, what a great start to a bill like this, to have its own internal assessors saying that this impact statement doesn\u2019t meet the quality assurance criterion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIt goes down into limitations and says that one of the limitations is that the range of options was limited to taking a health approach - only to drug use. Well, remember, the bill talks about three approaches: a health approach, a therapeutic approach, and an \u201Cother relevant matters\u201D approach. But this bill, the regulatory impact statement, only looked at one of them. The summary then goes on to say, \u201CThe Panel considers \u2026 that the [regulatory impact statement] does not provide sufficient information for Ministers to make an informed decision about the regulatory proposals.\u201D So again, the Government is looking at itself saying that, well, you don\u2019t actually have enough information to make a decision on this, but the bill appears here in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s been some discussion across the House whether it is decriminalisation or not. We believe it is. Some of our colleagues across the House have said it\u2019s not. I draw their attention to page two of the regulatory impact statement that says, \u201CThis will go some way to achieving the Government\u2019s objective of not criminalising users.\u201D That is decriminalisation. Let me read it again. \u201CThis will go some way to achieving the Government\u2019s objective of not criminalising users.\u201D This is a decriminalisation bill. The tragedy is the bill does it very poorly. We know that, because later down the impact statement says, \u201CThe [regulatory impact statement] is not convincing that emphasising discretion will be sufficient to avoid criminalising users.\u201D So the intention is there to decriminalise, but the bill does a very poor job of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EOther risks, while identified, are insufficiently addressed, and this question of possession and use, whether the bill also picks up supply, is highlighted in the risks. An option that included setting a very high presumption of supply in order to target importers and manufacturers could have been considered\u2014oh yes, it could have been considered, but clearly it wasn\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI also want to point to the consultation around this bill, and, as the regulatory impact statement points out, other than Government departments, the only other NGO or community organisation that was consulted was the Drug Foundation, and the regulatory impact statement says, \u201CBroader public consultation might have gained feedback from experts in health and social services, for example.\u201D What a poor bill. How embarrassing, when the Government\u2019s own team\u2014the Ministry of Health, in this case\u2014are saying that yes, this bill\u2019s about decriminalisation; but, sorry, it does poorly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESecondly, we haven\u2019t identified all the risks. It doesn\u2019t meet the quality assurance criterion, and, by the way, the only group we\u2019ve consulted with is the New Zealand Drug Foundation, and you really should have spoken with health specialist and social services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESo it is really hard to support this bill, and it looks like the Ministry of Health have really struggled to support it, as well. So we\u2019ll see where this progresses. But for any number of reasons, which I\u2019ve outlined here, we won\u2019t be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8dc59d44e8f4f249001bb1526bb09b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8dc59d44e8f4f249001bb1526bb09b3\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. I rise to speak in favour of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill. I want to highlight as the chair of the Health Committee that we are delighted to receive this bill. Why are we delighted to receive this bill? Because, actually, it takes a harm-minimisation, treatment-prevention approach to what has been an issue that has traditionally been dealt with by our criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI want to, firstly, also acknowledge that this whole process started in July 2018. I want to acknowledge the Chief Coroner at that time, who reported that between 40 and 45 people had died as a result of taking synthetic cannabis. The Acting Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, actually asked the Ministers of Justice, Corrections, Police, and Health, and officials, to consult and to come up with solutions to this problem. So I want to acknowledge his leadership, and also that the process that outlined the current approach was not working. So this piece of legislation is a direct consequence of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge Simeon Brown, who does have a bill in the ballot. His solution is just to increase penalties, and that sellers should go to jail. From our perspective, that isn\u2019t a solution, but he did bring that kaupapa to the House and I want to acknowledge him for that. So this whole definition of who is a seller is an issue. Currently, if you have more than 56 grams, which is the threshold, you\u2019re deemed to be a seller. But what we\u2019ve discerned through the process, in fact, is that 56 grams isn\u2019t a lot for a heavy user of these drugs\u2014actually, it might last them only a couple of days. So from our perspective, having a response that will enable the police to use their discretion is absolutely the intention of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EThe other intention of this bill is to provide the police with the tools so that the manufacturers and distributors of these drugs actually pay the penalty. They\u2019re the ones we want to see in prison, not those who have health issues. So the police discretion to prosecute, which people have talked extensively about tonight\u2014I want to fiercely highlight that the police currently do have a discretion about whether or not to prosecute, and I particularly want to focus on a programme or an initiative called Te Ara Oranga, which is based in Northland. So I\u2019m hoping that the people who represent our constituents in those areas understand that there is a current programme based in Northland that has seen the police refer 257 people to the district health board for addiction treatment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003ESo this is an existing recognition within our system that we need a different response, other than putting people through the criminal justice system. We actually need a health response, and so far this year an organised crime operation in Auckland has resulted in 32 referrals to addiction services\u2014again, as opposed to going through the criminal justice system. Why might we want to do that? Because, actually, people going through the criminal justice system and ending up in prison costs us $110,000 per annum, per prisoner. That is not an investment. It\u2019s not an investment in those individuals or their wh\u0101nau. What we\u2019re trying to do is absolutely, completely reorient the system to make sure that people who are caught in possession of these drugs get the help and support that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EWe need look no further than the alcohol and other drug treatment court, and I bring this up at this time because that has been\u2014I\u2019ll call it\u2014a disruption in the system. What that process did\u2014and I want to acknowledge Judge Lisa Tremewan and Judge Emma Aitken\u2014was, in fact, provide a mechanism within our justice system to support users who want to break their addictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI want to highlight what that particular kaupapa was called. It was named by Dr Pita Sharples, and I\u2019ll give him a bit of a shout-out. They called it Te Whare Whakapiki Wairua\u2014the house that uplifts the spirit. I actually think what this piece of legislation is, and I\u2019ve just decided to title it myself as \u201CTe P\u016Bnaha Tuma Tau\u201D\u2014sorry, I can\u2019t even read my own writing\u2014\u201CTe P\u016Bnaha T\u016Bm\u0101 T\u0101nui Whakapiki Wairua\u201D, is the public system that uplifts the spirit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003ESo I think this is actually the beginning of addressing issues such as unconscious bias, and why do I label it unconscious bias? Because what we have found out from a lot of the research done in this area is that those most affected by incarceration and engagement in the criminal justice system are M\u0101ori. One of the things I want to highlight is that of those people who are captured within the criminal justice system, if you are M\u0101ori and aged between 17 and 25, you make up 37 percent of those convicted of the possession and use of illicit drugs. So this piece of legislation is, fundamentally, going to change the trajectory of those individuals. What we are attempting to do is to provide a health recourse for people who are found to have possession of drugs, as opposed to putting them in the criminal justice system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EJust some context for people: in the 2016 New Zealand Drug Harm Index, our investment in the health system to provide people who needed treatment and addiction support was $78 million. Our investment in the justice system, which includes police, customs, courts, and prisons\u2014as I\u2019ve already highlighted\u2014was $273 million per annum. If we can shift those two figures around we can actually provide an investment, because what we know from our alcohol and other drug treatment court is that 60 percent of people who have gone through that process don\u2019t reoffend. It works. For people who have drug and alcohol addiction issues who get treatment, it works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003ESo we want that for everybody who is currently captured within a drug and alcohol addiction phenomenon, for whatever reason that may be. I know from my own community experience that that\u2019s a lot of people who are homeless, people who have mental health issues, and people who have got unresolved abuse issues, and one of the things that we\u2019ve never admitted as a country is why people end up using drugs and alcohol and become addicted. A lot of them have never had an opportunity to be supported, and so they take these drugs and alcohol and live in the situations they do because that is their existence. That has been their only life outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019re trying to do is shift the emphasis out of the criminal justice system, and\u2014I want to say explicitly and specifically\u2014for M\u0101ori. People have talked about the disproportionate number of M\u0101ori in the criminal justice system, and I actually think that the reorientation that this bill is going to implement through the development of, for example, guidelines that the police and the Ministry of Health will work on together\u2014so it\u2019s not going to be random. The Opposition have made a point of saying that everybody\u2019s going to get off being prosecuted, but that is not true, because part of the process will be what services do these people need\u2014these individuals who are caught with drugs\u2014and how responsive is the system to meet those needs. But, as I said before, it\u2019s also going to help reorientate what currently is a non-investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EPutting $273 million into a justice system that incarcerates people is not an investment. What this bill is is an investment, but it also\u2014as I\u2019ve highlighted\u2014is starting to address why so many M\u0101ori and so many young M\u0101ori get trapped in these cycles of coming in and out of prison. I mean, the most disgusting figure that I\u2019ve seen is that after five years, if you\u2019re a M\u0101ori, 80 percent of you are back in prison. So what\u2019s the solution? This: keep them out of prison in the first place. I challenge the National Party to actually have a closer look at this bill, because if that\u2019s what this bill does, your not supporting it is actually treachery, because you\u2019re assigning people to a life\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226898769fbf204004a845332d5f8ec4d4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Please don\u2019t bring me into the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d5d90cd223b4ad0b4aab28f3d748d43\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of misery. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fa7aa55a1dce486b9d4145bc76f34d5e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000536\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill be referred to the Health Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c095a3ca057645c9b52f8351c8bcb796\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022c724e98822684465a1fe27748c008583\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c724e98822684465a1fe27748c008583\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Police)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Health: I move, That the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 22 July 2019.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022317d208ed40848368f20dd2d4b1a5aad\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220270db231e4748829d39a157668bee77\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates for 2018\u201319, Modernising Tax Administration, and Remedial Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222649efd664d2453688ce74cafc32947b\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00220e74039238d2448e922064a8197f1dc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e74039238d2448e922064a8197f1dc8\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2018\u201319, Modernising Tax Administration, and Remedial Matters) Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EFor the benefit of the members, I\u2019ll use this opportunity to recap the objectives and the content of this bill. The core measure in this bill is a significant improvement in how tax returns of individuals are assessed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe Taxation (Annual Rates for 2017\u201318, Employment and Investment Income, and Remedial Matters) Act passed in March last year laid the foundation for a smarter, more responsive tax system by ensuring that the payers of employment and investment income provide better and more timely information to the Inland Revenue Department. With that in place, inland revenue is now able to ensure the right amounts are deducted or withheld from individuals to meet their obligations and to more accurately determine entitlements such as Working for Families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis bill simplifies tax obligations for individual taxpayers. The changes will help individuals to use the right tax code during the year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bdc0518ca8749bdbc6f3f7bb91387a1\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Well, as I only spoke for about a minute, I might as well reiterate from the beginning. For the benefit of members, I will use this opportunity to recap the objectives and the content of this bill. The core message in this bill is a significant improvement in how tax returns of individuals are assessed. The Taxation (Annual Rates for 2017-18, Employment and Investment Income, and Remedial Matters) Act, passed in March last year, laid the foundation for a smarter, more responsive tax system by ensuring that payers of employment and investment income provide better and more timely information to Inland Revenue. With that in place, Inland Revenue is now able to ensure that the right amounts are deducted or withheld from individuals to meet their obligations and more accurately determine their entitlements, such as Working for Families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis bill simplifies tax obligations for individual taxpayers. The changes will help individuals to use the right tax code during the year so that about the right amount of tax is deducted from their income during the year. It will remove unnecessary compliance obligations. It will simplify filing obligations and help refunds be paid out automatically for most wage, salary, and investment income earners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe changes to the secondary tax codes are intended to address this Government\u2019s concern about secondary tax. These changes will enable Inland Revenue to more closely identify workers with more than one job who\u2019ve been overpaying their tax. Inland Revenue will then be able to suggest a more appropriate withholding rate for an employee\u2019s second job. In this way, we\u2019ll remove the negative impact of secondary tax for those employees. In fact, these tailored tax codes are available at the moment, but a taxpayer has to proactively contact IRD. This is going to make it pretty much automatic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAnother key benefit is that most people won\u2019t have to engage with a third party to ensure they get a tax refund\u2014great news. The changes in this bill will mean that many people will get their refunds automatically\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1dea7477efe45e2b6f7bd38905b25dd\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Yay!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230f8f21197dc4d29992bb3d2973cae42\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and as a result\u2014it\u2019s a great idea, isn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c502acd5bc745b99cba551823ae006a\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: I like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad34d7171ddd471a9d50beb166085d72\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, so do we\u2014actually, so will 440,000 extra taxpayers, as the Government expects to pay out refunds to that many Kiwis. Ensuring people are paid\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022682d5ae0237147a6ab8315e1842500a8\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Good thing we initiated that reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223487b855f3e4886ad9e626cdcf676b8\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it\u2019s fantastic. Ensuring people pay the right amount of tax and also receive correct social policy entitlements will further build people\u2019s trust in the New Zealand tax system. Taxpayers expect the Government to be a good steward of their contribution to New Zealand\u2019s public services, and I think this bill contributes significantly to our tax system\u2019s reputation as fair and simple. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI\u2019m grateful to the Finance and Expenditure Committee for considering these enhancements to the tax system and suggesting further improvements\u2014well done. In the spirit of simplifying the tax system, the Finance and Expenditure Committee recommended clarifying that a taxpayer\u2019s information can be amended so that information can be corrected, and easily, without penalties or interest, and also recommended simplifying the proposed write-off rules. The end result of the consultation and select committee process is that we have a better bill that enhances the simplicity of our tax system while not compromising its integrity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe full benefit of those proposed changes will be realised in the 2021 year, when, for the first time, people will be able to see a full year of pre-populated information for PAYE and all of their investment income. Most people will pay what they need to and get what they are entitled to during the year without having to do anything. Inland Revenue will make it easy for customers to see what they\u2019ve paid and what they owe, and will be better at detecting errors. However, it is important to note that while more customers will have income reported on their behalf, people will remain responsible for reporting other income and deductions, assessing their liabilities, and, of course, meeting their obligations. But, generally, people will spend far less time and effort ensuring they meet their obligations and receive their correct social policy entitlements, as tax will be correctly withheld and assistance provided at the time it is needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis is the key thing: developing a tax system that responds in near real-time to changes in circumstances without requiring a wash-up at the end of the year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228392a0bd53f4421f9b5f84b08b6c6de5\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Hoorah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c43b8b886ce4478ba6996b4bfe44267c\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s fantastic, isn\u2019t it? The people of Tauranga will just love this. These improvements to how individuals have their tax assessed constitute the main part of this wide-ranging suite of measures to modernise and simplify the tax system. Go this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs well as improvements to how tax obligations and entitlements are assessed for individuals, this bill makes several other key improvements to our tax system, which I am pleased to summarise. We\u2019ll improve how Inland Revenue collects and manages its information. Inland Revenue takes its role as a steward of the taxpayers\u2019 personal information very seriously, which is critical to retain taxpayers\u2019 trust and confidence in the tax system. The bill modernises and clarifies rules to better provide confidentiality and sharing in the future, and more clearly balance the trade-off associated with information sharing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIn respect of collection, the bill will also clarify in legislation that information collected for one Inland Revenue purpose can be used for the department\u2019s other functions. The bill also proposes a regulation-making power for repeat collection of third-party databases in order to provide greater transparency when this collection is to be done on a regular basis. These proposals will make the information management rules more efficient and transparent, and better focus confidentiality rules to clearly protect taxpayers\u2019 information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EBinding rulings\u2014as the Minister for Small Business, I\u2019m pleased that the bill also proposes a new type of binding ruling called a short-process ruling, designed to be more accessible to small to medium sized businesses, and individuals. The ability for a wider range of taxpayers to obtain binding advice from Inland Revenue will help more taxpayers get their tax positions right the first time. Of course, with a binding ruling, it does bind the commissioner, but it doesn\u2019t actually bind the taxpayer, but it certainly provides a level of certainty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EKiwiSaver\u2014I\u2019m also excited about proposed changes to KiwiSaver. The bill contains measures to introduce additional employee contribution rates of 6 percent and 10 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed06968a491a41eb9a4261e0c8c9fc26\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Brilliant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022714e1e6caa2a4dfd9adc1702ab63999c\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it\u2019s fantastic\u2014removes the five-year lock-in period for KiwiSaver, which currently affects members who join KiwiSaver between the ages of 60 and 65; and it actually opens the scheme up to those Kiwis over 65, so age should be no barrier to saving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, these are the main features of this bill, and it is a bill which will improve taxpayers\u2019 experience of tax administration and make the system fairer, which is what we\u2019re all after, after all. As well as these major tax policy improvements, the bill proposes a number of remedial measures to tighten our current tax legislation and ensure it remains fit for purpose. I would like to thank the policy officials and drafters who worked on the detail of the bill, the organisations and individuals who made submissions on proposed legislation, and the Finance and Expenditure Committee for its consideration and recommendations to improve the workability and fairness of the provisions. I commend the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2018-19, Modernising Tax Administration, and Remedial Matters) Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002243788c62984f4cc7a3a1ee10ed1f9ead\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243788c62984f4cc7a3a1ee10ed1f9ead\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It\u2019s wonderful to be talking on this third reading of the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2018-19, Modernising Tax Administration, and Remedial Matters) Bill. I want to congratulate the Minister on a beautifully read summary of the bill that we\u2019re about to debate. You know, there is a lot of good stuff in this bill, I\u2019ve got to say, and I think the underlying tenet of this is that I\u2019m just so grateful that my colleagues initiated that major wholesale change at the IRD that brought about the Business Transformation programme that is leading to a lot of these changes. Of course, we\u2019re now seeing the fruition of that coming to pass, and, of course, what this bill does is pick up on some of those issues\u2014and I\u2019ll come back to that in a moment. But the reason why we cannot support this bill is that it is a continuation of this rapacious Government\u2014that all they want to do is grab money from those hard-working New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s all they want to do, and this bill enshrines that by making sure that the tax rates remain as they are. That is the worst thing about it. That\u2019s why I am so bitterly disappointed that\u2014when my colleague, the Hon Amy Adams, put up that wonderful Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) which has now been picked up by the Hon Simon Bridges, which is about protecting New Zealanders so that they don\u2019t pay more tax than they need to. We want everyone to pay what they should have to pay but no more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThis bill enshrines high rates of taxes on people, and that is the reason we can\u2019t support it. Of course, the SOP that Amy Adams put up was about making sure the four thresholds at which you kick over into the higher tax rates are enshrined by making sure that they are linked to CPI. So your wages may increase but the tax rates mean that you would stay in the same bracket, provided you don\u2019t actually increase greater than that. And that means it is fairer and it is fair for people. Tax creep is the issue\u2014fiscal drag. That is the worst thing about this bill because this Government, which has already imposed $2.6 billion of additional taxes in the 16 months they\u2019ve been in power\u2014they\u2019ve already imposed that. All they\u2019ve done is enshrine in this bill that they\u2019re going to allow people to pay more tax than they should otherwise have to. That is the issue. That\u2019s the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe only other issue that we have a fundamental disagreement on with this bill is the issue around bloodstock. I know my colleague, Mr McKelvie, is going to speak at length on this issue. We support the thoroughbred industry. In fact, in my electorate, and where I live, there are lots of horse-racing operations. We would have liked to have seen something that actually did some good for the thoroughbred industry. What we ended up with was the Winston Peters flop for the racing industry, because this bill includes a bloodstock mechanism that doesn\u2019t work. We tested the officials at the select committee. And even at the Karaka sales this year it would not have resulted in one single horse getting any benefit, or any owners or buyers thereof. That is why it\u2019s a sop to the racing industry. Those are the worst things about this bill: those two elements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to leave it up to my other colleagues to talk about some of the other stuff but I think the one thing that the Minister missed in his summary was the issue of backdating of ACC payments. This is one that the select committee thought about for some time, because often you get ACC payments that span financial years. Of course, people receiving those payments don\u2019t always know about them; they don\u2019t plan for them because the payments are made by ACC as an organisation. What this does is to make sure that those ACC people do not actually end up being disadvantaged by receiving a payment right at the end of the year which would otherwise go towards their assessable income. I think that\u2019s quite a crucial but small step in terms of recognising them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think, as a bill, there\u2019s a lot to be commended, but those two issues are fundamental and we, on this side, remain implacably opposed to anything that enshrines the tax rates as they are at a personal level because New Zealanders should be able to keep what they earn, as much as they should earn, and pay only that amount of tax which is fair and reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c962306b3bbe4f39805e77485e4135fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c962306b3bbe4f39805e77485e4135fd\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E What an interesting thing it is that on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2018\u201319, Modernising Tax Administration, and Remedial Matters) Bill\u2014a bill which the Opposition has determined they will vote against on the basis, apparently, that it is a deep injustice that we are retaining the income tax rates that remained for most of the term of the previous Government\u2014that the lead Opposition speaker could only manage five minutes. I was expecting a little bit more\u2014some more well-developed arguments around what the alternative proposals might be, getting into the detail of the bill a bit more, but we on the side of the House will be very happy to provide that for the benefit of the House and those people who are watching and engaging in this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI doubt that there is a member of this House who hasn\u2019t had a constituent or met a voter who hasn\u2019t complained to them about the impact of secondary tax. It\u2019s a very, very common complaint that we hear from people. And, of course, it\u2019s an interesting one because the nature of secondary tax is that we have the system set up in order to avoid a situation in which a taxpayer might underpay the tax and be faced with a very big tax bill at the end of the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EAnd the sort of logical and measured explanation and response you can give to someone who is complaining about secondary tax is \u201CWell, you can seek a refund at the end of the year, if you go through the process, and you work with IRD, and it\u2019ll all sort of end up where it should be in the wash.\u201D But, of course, the reality for many taxpayers\u2014and we\u2019re talking about people often on low and middle incomes who perhaps are doing multiple jobs to try and make ends meet\u2014is that actually, it\u2019s pretty tough from payday to pay date, and those people would much prefer to actually be getting paid the correct amount of income and paying the correct amount of tax at the time rather than waiting for a refund process that they might feel a little bit uncomfortable about engaging with in any case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe outstanding news about this bill is that, in most cases, we will be able to do away with the need for taxpayers to engage in that process. That is extraordinarily good news. I want to pay tribute here to the Minister Stuart Nash, because I know that he, over many years, has been someone who has pushed and campaigned on this issue in order to make sure that we have a tax system in which taxpayers pay the right amount of tax and don\u2019t have to go through that process of seeking a secondary tax refund. And here as Minister, he has brought this bill to the House, and we are going to achieve that outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EMr Bayly is right: we\u2019re able to achieve this outcome because there has been a significant investment in the IRD\u2019s capacity through the Business Transformation project\u2014that\u2019s both as a result of the investment in the technology and also the processes that IRD is setting up internally. And credit goes to many people in the previous Government for putting the initial investment into that process, but, most importantly, to the good people at IRD, including the commissioner, who have been driving that process through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also interesting because on the Finance and Expenditure Committee we see this process going through the different bills that come before us. So in the previous annual rates bill, which we actually only finished up with in the House relatively recently, a big focus of that was around the provision of payday and investment income from employers. I was speaking at a payroll conference last week about this actually\u2014we\u2019re asking employers to provide payday information to IRD far more regularly. Actually, the reason for that is that if we have more timely and more accurate information, then we can do this kind of stuff because the way in which we are dealing with the secondary tax issue is by ensuring that IRD have the correct information, which means that the commissioner can look at a taxpayer\u2019s situation and recommend, effectively, what will be a tailored tax rate to that person to ensure that they are paying the correct tax rate, given the different jobs they might be doing at any one point in time. The person will have the right to respond to that, and not take that tailored tax rate if that is what they wish to do, but it gives the ability to give that tailored tax rate and, for many people and many situations, do away with that secondary tax scenario. So that is an enormous step forward for many taxpayers and for IRD, and I commend everyone who has been involved in that process. Many, many New Zealanders will be very happy with us indeed\u2014it\u2019s great news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EA couple of the other key things in the bill that I think are worth talking about\u2014and these were some of the issues that we spent time on at the Finance and Expenditure Committee. One I do want to talk about a little bit is the short-process rulings changes in this piece of legislation. What we have at the moment is a scenario in which larger taxpayers can go through a process of what is called getting binding rulings, where they have a significant tax problem or question and they can seek a binding ruling to give them certainty about how they arrange their tax affairs. But the reality is that for smaller and medium enterprises that is an extraordinarily difficult and time consuming and costly and complex process to go through. So it doesn\u2019t really work for them. It works for the bigger players but not the smaller businesses who we actually want to be assisting as much as we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESo the short-process rulings is a sort of truncated, simpler way in which those businesses can try and get some certainty, get a ruling from IRD about a particular tax problem or question to give them certainty about their investment or how they\u2019re going to be making decisions within their business. That was very much welcomed from the community when this bill went out to submissions, but the feedback that the select committee did receive from many people was that the initial threshold in the bill was perhaps a little bit too low. It was available to businesses with a turnover of less than $5 million. In response to those submissions\u2014which were really well argued at select committee\u2014we\u2019ve agreed to increase that to a $20 million threshold. So that\u2019s going to give many more businesses access to that short-process rulings facility, and that is going to make life a lot better for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThere are also changes in this bill around KiwiSaver, and look, on this side of the House we are just immensely proud of KiwiSaver, and every single advance in KiwiSaver from its establishment through to this point has been led by members on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a46b72a1e0c14708ba9bbc037d763747\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Did they support it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f72b317e46a4df98b58a10983e57365\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is one of the interesting things. The member Kieran McAnulty asks if the Opposition are supporting it, and the Opposition have tied their colours to the mast on this bill: they are voting against it. But what are we doing for KiwiSaver in this bill? They\u2019re voting against it; Mr Bayly told us that. We\u2019re giving Kiwis more flexibility to engage in KiwiSaver by introducing new contribution rates of 6 percent and 10 percent, and that is going to give people\u2014at the moment, say you are contributing at maybe 4 percent, you\u2019ve got to double it and go right up to 8 percent now if you want to increase your KiwiSaver savings. This is going to give many more people a kind of a staircase to increase their contributions, to grow their savings, and have greater security in their retirement years. That is a really good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThis bill also does allow over-65s to join KiwiSaver, and that\u2019s a good thing as well. We know many people continue to work past that traditional cut-off date and we think that those people should have the right to be improving their savings for the time at which they do retire as well. One of the changes select committee made in this area is that at the moment we\u2019ve got a five-year, lock-in provision. We\u2019ve sort of envisaged a situation where maybe someone starts contributing to KiwiSaver a little bit after they\u2019re 60, they retire after less than five years\u2014we do want those people to be able to access their KiwiSaver. So provisions that were enacted at select committee will remove that five-year, lock-in period for people in that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019ve had through this process, if I can really summarise, is a good bill coming to this House that makes many improvements to our tax system. We had a very good process at select committee, and strong support from officials from the Inland Revenue Department\u2014I want to acknowledge and thank them. We had submissions from across the community, which certainly grew our understanding of the issues within the bill and enabled the select committee to engage with officials and make a series of very practical improvements to this bill. I really want to thank everyone who\u2019s been involved in that process. From my point of view this was a bill, as is often the case with the Finance and Expenditure Committee, where we as a committee were able to engage with the issues and we took a good bill and turned it into a really good bill. And I want to thank the Minister of Revenue for his support in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EOne area I will touch on is that the Commissioner of Inland Revenue\u2019s care and management powers, which were in the original bill, are not proceeding in this bill. This is an excellent example of the way that our parliamentary democracy works. There were some concerns that were raised at the select committee around how these powers might work: they, effectively, allowed the commissioner to address anomalies that might be there within the bill. There were some concerns around where the appropriate delineation of powers between the Parliament and the commissioner were. As a result, those changes are not proceeding in this bill and the discussion was that there\u2019ll be further consultation and dialogue around this. Now, the committee in the next tax bill, which will be coming back to the House sometime a little bit later in this year, has received a revised set of proposals in this area, which are currently going out for public consultation. And I just want to point out what a good example that is of how our system works in this Parliament\u2014that actually, at the select committee stage, we have the ability to engage on these issues; we have Ministers who respond really well to these issues; and we can actually look to adapt legislation to deal with concerns, to listen to submitters, and get the best possible legislation at the end of this day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESo this is a really, really good bill. It makes a lot of changes that are very, very positive to taxpayers. The parliamentary process has worked. The Minister is to be commended for steering this bill through the House and for the significant workload that he has in terms of bringing tax legislation to this House to make life better for taxpayers. And I certainly commend this bill to the House on this its third reading. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002269031ad389e14fecbce588dbc23e9f27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269031ad389e14fecbce588dbc23e9f27\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next speaker, the last two speakers have brought to my attention the contributions to KiwiSaver for those over the age of 65. Just because I\u2019ve had a birthday that does not mean I need that sort of advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff6cd80bbe684308a74b214db2e86c4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff6cd80bbe684308a74b214db2e86c4f\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thought you might like to declare an interest\u2014but OK, thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThere are some things in this taxation\u2014I won\u2019t repeat the whole title; we\u2019ve heard it enough\u2014bill that we think, on the side of the House, are good changes. We\u2019re not disputing that. We\u2019ve certainly heard from members previously in this debate about some of those changes and I actually would agree with the speaker who\u2019s just resumed his seat, Michael Wood, that actually the committee, I think, worked well at improving some of the aspects in the bill. So there are certainly components that on this side of the House we think are meritorious: changes to KiwiSaver certainly, the direct refund ability provided for in the bill, the binding ruling changes, and also, following on from the last speaker\u2019s contribution, the pushing back on the extra powers of the Commissioner of Inland Revue was seeking to address anomalies in legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EWe can all see the merit. And yet when you are giving a delegated, quasi-legislative\u2014well, certainly a tertiary-level, decision-making power to an official in an area like tax law, I think we do have to get that right and be very careful with it. And I would actually agree that the committee worked very constructively across party lines on some of those issues and on those we\u2019ve got to a good place. So I certainly don\u2019t want the fact that we are voting against this bill to take away from the fact that there was some very good work to improve some aspects of the bill that we thought\u2014as I say, without party-line divisions\u2014weren\u2019t quite right and that also there are some aspects of the bill that we think are certainly worth advancing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EBut\u2014there was always a \u201Cbut\u201D coming; and it is a \u201Cbut\u201D\u2014we will oppose the bill because the core part of this bill fundamentally is still setting the annual tax rates. It\u2019s all right there in the title. As it says on the tin, it sets the annual tax rates. And this side of the House is not going to vote in favour of legislation which overtaxes New Zealanders. That\u2019s what fundamentally this does. It says to New Zealanders that because the Government can\u2019t control the loose spending of Shane Jones and others who occupy the Treasury benches, New Zealanders will be paying more tax than they should and more tax than they need to, and of course New Zealanders know\u2014you\u2019d have to be under a rock not to know\u2014that there\u2019s a whole bunch of even more taxes coming, but we\u2019ll have plenty of opportunity to discuss those. But think of this bill as the beginning of this Labour - New Zealand First - Greens Government taking more money from New Zealanders than those New Zealanders should rightly be paying. And we are not, on this side of the House, going to vote in favour of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe first aspect in that regard is that the tax thresholds in this bill at which the tax rates apply now haven\u2019t been adjusted since 2010. Now, National adjusted the tax thresholds in 2010 to make sure they were continually being updated for inflation and they did again in 2017. But of course the first act of the incoming Government was to cancel that. So we are now back at New Zealanders paying tax on thresholds that were last set in 2010 because this Government is content to let inflation mean they can take more and more money from New Zealanders. And that is not something we\u2019re going to turn a blind eye to, to fund loose, poorly targeted, poorly overseen, and low-accountability spending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EBut it isn\u2019t just that issue of keeping up with inflation, which tax rates absolutely should. In fact, the IMF in Australia just came out and told the Australians, \u201CYou should have a system for automatically linking your tax thresholds to inflation. It is bad practice not to.\u201D And I look forward to their next review of New Zealand, when I\u2019m sure this Government will get a similar message. But there\u2019s good news: do we have a solution for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EBut it goes further than that, because in those changes that I have mentioned that were legislated in 2017 and then cancelled by the incoming Government, New Zealanders would have found themselves getting more than $1,000 a year more in their own pockets. Now $1,000 a year might not be much to Michael Cullen who gets that a day, but it is a lot to the average worker. And again, if it wasn\u2019t for poorly-targeted, pork-barrel spending from Shane Jones and others, New Zealanders could have had that money and the country would have been better off as a result. But no, no, this is a Government that said, \u201CLet\u2019s overtax New Zealanders; let\u2019s take more money out of the pocket of every hardworking New Zealander, and we\u2019ll use that to funnel money through weak, poor-spending programmes that aren\u2019t going to help New Zealand, but it keeps us sweet with New Zealand First and others.\u201D That is not a bill and that is not an approach that the side of the House will support. We will be opposing this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022 data-id=\u00225f36254746fd4fcaa81838af12cd7c55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f36254746fd4fcaa81838af12cd7c55\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. A pleasure to rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak to this fantastic legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just address some of the comments made by the Opposition members, if you\u2019ll allow me. The comment around fiscal drag is farcical. For eight years the National Government did nothing around the changes to inflation and the subsequent drag on the income tax rates\u2014eight years. Eight years they did nothing, and then they decry the fact that they had proposition tax cuts for New Zealanders. Yet they sit there and watch this Government spend absolutely appropriately, studiously, and wisely on hospitals, schools, and infrastructure across the country, and they\u2014anyway. Let\u2019s talk about the legislation because I could spend 10 minutes on what they didn\u2019t do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224342e52f5c1b44be85570c0d33d936b2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you wouldn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285cf918dd1904f58a9a147e56cf11c47\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU\u003C/span\u003E: But you wouldn\u2019t let me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b73e91520db14f9d9d1279e95f8595a0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I wouldn\u2019t let you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdcbbb2faf394e2182abdddd92f750c7\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU\u003C/span\u003E: So let me begin by wishing you a happy birthday, Madam Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003ESo I think I will take a short call because those of us who have spoken already have enunciated quite well what this legislation is about. But there are some highlights for New Zealand First, for me personally. This is a legislative package where New Zealanders are witnessing right now the modernisation of our tax system. They are seeing it through this legislation that we are passing through this House tonight, through this third reading. They\u2019re seeing it in the technology being applied in the IRD. Basically, in summary, what that means for New Zealanders is a simpler and more efficient tax system that they will notice first hand. One of the statistics that comes to mind is in the last financial year there were 750,000 taxpayers who could\u2019ve received a refund but they didn\u2019t proceed with that. They didn\u2019t seek to get that refund from IRD. So this modernisation, this upgrade of technology, of implementation around data management, collection of information, means a timely response from inland revenue. And what\u2019s quite amazing is that for the first time New Zealanders will receive a refund automatically if they are so due. Ironically the efficiency also means that these refunds are probably less and less likely to occur because IRD will become that much more efficient in understanding what people\u2019s tax obligations are with their salaries and other incomes. Conversely, there\u2019ll probably be less tax bills sent out because IRD will get that right as well. So that, I think, is a tangible measure of what this modernisation of the legislation will mean for people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EI just wanted to commend the work of the Minister and the select committee, but I wanted to focus on the KiwiSaver provisions to do that because I think it\u2019s quite exemplary that we have taken the issues, known issues, with KiwiSaver and worked on them and put them in this legislation, so that those tax income earners between the age of 60 and 65 who used to have a five year kind of block on accessing their KiwiSaver savings can now do that when they turn 65, which is great. What we\u2019ve also done now is ensure that anyone working who\u2019s over 65 and who wants to can use the KiwiSaver system, the structure here, as a means of savings. Some of our KiwiSaver providers are really good at providing returns for savers. So you know, that\u2019s to be commended in terms of providing options. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003EThe other thing I wanted to touch on was probably one of the most fundamental things for me coming from the Rotorua electorate and that was around the secondary tax rates. It was a common conversation amongst the people of Rotorua in my office, and the frustration of having these multiple tax rates. People will be so pleased to know that if they work with inland revenue, discuss their income for the year and they both understand what their likely income is to be for the year, they will be taxed on those incomes at that one rate. The simplicity of that and the helping people with their day-to-day lives in terms of money management will make a big difference for many of the people in Rotorua. So this legislation is significant in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d18d946ee9334741829c8383e3d28e97\u0022\u003EAlastair Scott\u003C/span\u003E: All your own work. All your own work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e11a5f05-1940-41b2-8f1e-911dba7a43a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206cf4bc0535f4272993a56f5fda57ac5\u0022\u003EFLETCHER TABUTEAU\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, yeah. I would probably end it there because it\u2019s just too easy to attack the other side. Not in the mood for it tonight. So may I please commend this legislation to the House, and thank all those involved. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbf0f8e0ed774b42a7437b7ed692aab8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbf0f8e0ed774b42a7437b7ed692aab8\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Hey, isn\u2019t it wonderful the way that Fletcher Tabuteau, who\u2019s resumed his seat, gave a big shout out to us for the great work we did in Government to actually bring about the opportunity for inland revenue to work with people so that they can, where they have more than one taxable income, work out what their tax should be so they don\u2019t have to pay a secondary tax as well. And that is something which over some years and with different ministers we were able to do. It\u2019s good to see it\u2019s finally going to come into law. That is the best thing, of course, out of this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EObviously I\u2019d like to acknowledge that the Hon Stuart Nash\u2014who\u2019s now the Minister of Revenue, following on a particularly fine couple of Ministers of Revenue\u2014was able to continue with these changes and did not cut the funding or cut any, let\u2019s say, drive and impetus that inland revenue had for this change. Because unlike some ministers, I have to say, who have done silly things like just cut programmes because they weren\u2019t that particular person\u2019s name\u2014and I\u2019m not looking at the Hon Phil Twyford that much when I say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would like to say that we are not going to support this bill in the end, That\u2019s not about the good things in it, which obviously also include the changes to KiwiSaver that increase flexibility. We think that\u2019s a good thing. We think that the removing of the five-year look-in period, opening up KiwiSaver to over 65s\u2014which, I have to say, was a National Party Papakura electorate remit at a conference just a couple back\u2014that was a good thing, and also increasing the number of contribution rates. We think that\u2019s all good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhat we do not think is good, and we cannot vote for, is the increase and cementing of the higher tax rates that New Zealanders need to be paying. We see a lot of nonsense talked about energy payments, winter energy payments to millionaire retirees. At the same time this Government took away the thousand dollars extra that people were going to get because of the tax cuts that we legislated for. So in essence we do not support this bill even though there are parts of it which do have the genesis in our work, and that we do agree with. But ultimately no, the tax is too much and we should have less of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u00224e90ef4c38644ee3af1e8ceb70b8f266\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e90ef4c38644ee3af1e8ceb70b8f266\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I\u2019m not sure if I have the day right but if I\u2019m correct, well, happy birthday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8d88ce9851e44dd901872d6d1721bcd\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I said recent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281b56463610f42c7886090a6d379ada3\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Recently. Belatedly happy birthday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe Green Party supports this Taxation (Annual Rates for 2018-19, Modernising Tax Administration, and Remedial Matters) Bill\u2014snappily titled\u2014through its third and final reading. I do want to note, of course, the irony that this bill is going to pass roughly 10 days before the end of the tax year that it covers. But I\u2019m glad that we are getting to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThere are, as has been noted, three main objectives: reform of administration of individuals income tax; addressing key aspects of the Tax Administration Act 1994, including information collecting and shareholding of taxpayer information; and, setting the annual rates of income tax for the 2018-19 tax year. I just wanted to draw out a few points in particular in relation to the debate and the fact that this is not passing with the support of the other side of the House. First of all, in addition to those main objectives the bill does propose amendments to simplify and clarify key aspects of our tax law, for example, as Mr Tabuteau just said, removing the need for people who only earn employment or investment income to file a tax summary to get a tax refund. So what that means, for the folks at home and I know that there are tens of thousands of you, is that that change will automatically give around 750,000 New Zealanders tax refunds without them having to file a tax return. I just want to note that the National Party is voting against that. So the National Party are voting against removing paperwork from the lives of three-quarters of a million New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThey are also voting against changes that will help individuals to use the right tax code in the year to avoid tax overpayments. The National Party are voting against that. Also, they are voting against removing the unnecessary compliance costs which this bill gets rid of. So the party of regulatory reform and small government is voting against unnecessary compliance costs. This is about the modernisation of our tax system, and the National Party are voting against that, preferring the old, outmoded tax system that this bill helps to replace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo the amendments here are part, obviously, of the ongoing process, the multi-year\u2014in fact, multi-Government process\u2014of inland revenue\u2019s Business Transformation process that links the department\u2019s ability to operate with its technology upgrades, and to implement a range of measures that help to modernise and simplify the tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI just wanted to highlight, also, the changes to KiwiSaver here, which are based on material that occurred under the previous Government and the Retirement Commissioner\u2019s report in 2016 on retirement policies. I just wanted to note that at the time, or earlier in this process, the Green Party did express concerns to Minister Nash about the amendment to reduce the maximum contribution holiday period from five years to one year, because we were concerned that that could be a burden, particularly for some vulnerable people whose circumstances, leading to a savings holiday or a suspension, might not get resolved in a year. We know that people who are in those kinds of circumstances, if they are feeling that they need to take that holiday because their current circumstances require it, then they might, essentially, end up getting ejected from the system because that period of time is too short. However, I want to say that we have been assured that as part of the IRD\u2019s Business Transformation programme, there are ways that would be included to reduce compliance costs for KiwiSaver members who are looking to renew a suspension and come back into the system. So we feel that that concern has been assuaged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, as I said in the first and second readings of this bill, few of us enjoy paying tax, especially people on the other side of the House. Some spend a great deal of money with, you know, rooms full of tax lawyers finding new ways and exciting ways of paying less tax, and as little tax as possible, but as I\u2019ve previously said, tax is a social contract that allows us to pay our fair share to pay for the public services that we all need for a functioning society. Now, in return, obviously, a tax system should be based on fairness, it should be simple, and it should operate efficiently, and the reforms that are in this bill, the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2018-19, Modernising Tax Administration, and Remedial Matters) Bill, aim to meet those criteria to ensure that we do have a fair and simple and effective tax system that is fit for the 21st century. So, therefore, on behalf of the Green Party, I do commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8c2ddc07a1346d8b50adb7613f2f775\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8c2ddc07a1346d8b50adb7613f2f775\u0022\u003EALASTAIR SCOTT (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is a missed opportunity, an opportunity that a lazy Government could have taken up to reward taxpayers, who deserve to have more of their money in their pockets. After nine years of real growth in the economy, it would only be reasonable to allow the tax rates to be adjusted to enable Kiwis to have more money of theirs in their pockets. That is what we proposed, despite Mr Tabuteau\u2019s assertions, in 2017, when we wanted and legislated for a change in the tax brackets. Those tax bracket changes would have enabled $1,000-plus to be in taxpayers\u2019 pockets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233a48cb46c144ca5bc550606e01b065c\u0022\u003EPriyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: Which ones?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ead4253f448a4cc397a2c383316ebfa6\u0022\u003EALASTAIR SCOTT\u003C/span\u003E: In every taxpayer\u2019s pockets over a minimum amount\u2014an average income earner was going to take home $1,000. But, no, this Government has missed the opportunity and has set the tax rates unnecessarily high, because they are a lazy Government who does not do the thinking before just saying, \u201CLet\u2019s just keep the tax rates the same. We\u2019ve got no interest in being innovative. We\u2019ve got no interest in giving to Kiwis more money in their taxpayer pockets\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003EThe other opportunity that was missed was in KiwiSaver. Again, speakers across the House have acknowledged the KiwiSaver changes were done from this side of the House. Nothing new from that side. Another example of a lazy Government: not thinking about the opportunities that existed to do something more for KiwiSavers. There are not enough people in KiwiSaver. We know that. The Government had an opportunity to do something about it, and they did not. Those two reasons are why we are not supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00221a876e0640764bc7856119ac4c88578f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a876e0640764bc7856119ac4c88578f\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E \u201CThere\u2019s not enough people in KiwiSaver\u201D\u2014what an amazing statement from a very, evidently, angry man. It\u2019s quite incredible that Alastair Scott\u2014I had to take a moment to remember his name\u2014could stand up here after his Government made changes to KiwiSaver that would disincentivise people from joining and then make comments to say, \u201CThere are not enough people in KiwiSaver\u201D. What a disingenuous statement. It just goes to show that some people in this place here wish to play politics instead of actually standing up and acknowledging when things are a good idea. They just still\u2014they can\u2019t help themselves and they\u2019ve got to make silly statements that, actually, just make themselves look foolish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does, in terms of KiwiSaver, is actually address the concern that Alastair Scott said about people not joining KiwiSaver, because what it does is it makes those changes to make it easier for people to join. It incentivises people to make the most of KiwiSaver\u2014because what we have here is a system brought in by the previous Labour Government, which, I understand, the National Opposition of the time did not support\u2014because it brings in new saving rates. It brings in saving rates of 6 percent and it brings in the saving rate of 10 percent, and I, for one, would encourage any new worker\u2014particularly those young workers who are just starting out; they might be starting out in a new job, they might be starting out in their first job\u2014if they can, they should go for the highest possible saving rate they can. This is because 10 percent over a long period of time\u2014the intent of KiwiSaver is to allow for workers to have a nest egg in their retirement; to be able to actually have a benefit from a lifetime of contribution, a lifetime of work; and to have money put aside for their retirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAnother aspect that is an absolute positive to KiwiSaver, in this bill, is the ability for people over the age of 65 to join. It is no longer a barrier for those very valued citizens in our society who are over 65. And because you\u2019re 65\u2014I don\u2019t agree with that side of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker; 65 is not old these days. People at 65 years of age can do anything, and it shouldn\u2019t matter what age you are. If you are working you should be able to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fd0f18b49324a2c9afb21819d50dfcb\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t bring me into it, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238ad493991e048b98b09d8e0dfe29ae5\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re dead right, Madam Deputy Speaker. You are dead right. I should not have brought you into this, even if, in this instance, it is applicable. The point is that those workers who are over the age of 65 should not be discriminated against, and this bill allows them to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, earlier, I mentioned about those young workers\u2014perhaps they might be starting out, and I think of those in the area where I live, Wairarapa. I think I am\u2014actually, I look around and I am the only MP here that lives in Wairarapa, so I\u2019m looking around and I talk to those people on the street. Now, often when they\u2019re starting out working. they might get one or two or three jobs, and those people are affected by secondary tax. They\u2019re not 100 percent sure why, but they know that if they get a second job or a third job secondary tax kicks in. It is a burden. It is a burden because at the end of the day, at the end of the tax year in fact, the vast\u2014well, actually not the vast majority; around 750,000 people do not follow in the process of collecting a refund. Now, for those who know about the system, they know that the tax is collected just in case they\u2014to avoid having a tax bill at the end of the year. But for those who don\u2019t understand the system and for those that it is a burden, this bill is going to make a good positive change to their lives, because this allows the IRD with the appropriate technology to be able to track the rate of tax that they pay across their various jobs. So the intent of secondary tax, to avoid a tax bill, is enabled through this technology and through the provisions in this bill to allow them to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThose that I\u2019ve spoken to on the streets, and the street corners of Wairarapa, from the areas of Featherston all the way to Waipawa, those that work more than one job\u2014when they hear that this Government is going to remove the burden of secondary tax, it is like a weight is lifted off their shoulders. They are delighted at the provision in this particular bill. So it is great that the other side are acknowledging particular aspects of it. They\u2019re making a lot of noise around\u2014oh, they would have made tax cuts. They wouldn\u2019t have increased spending in health and education, but they would have made tax cuts. It is a shame that politics is getting in the way of a bill that is going to benefit the vast majority of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022 data-id=\u00220fe0474e20674200b827371d8b4251a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fe0474e20674200b827371d8b4251a7\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, it\u2019s a pleasure to rise and speak on this, the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2018-19, Modernising Tax Administration, and Remedial Matters) Bill. This is an opportunity lost for New Zealand. I just want to take up on comments Mr Shaw made. Fairness\u2014how many times did he say \u201Cfairness\u201D? Yet he voted against Amy Adams\u2019 Supplementary Order Paper that would have indexed tax thresholds to inflation, ensuring that we wouldn\u2019t be increasing the tax burden on people by stealth, through increasing taxation through inflation. He thinks that\u2019s fair. He\u2019s voting for a bill that\u2019s going to retain tax rates that take more tax by stealth. He calls that fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EBut then there\u2019s Mr McAnulty. He said KiwiSaver\u2014it\u2019s going to make it easier, easier for people to join. Mr McAnulty, there are two new rates in this bill for KiwiSaver, both of them higher than the minimum. There is nothing in this bill that is going to make it easier for people to join KiwiSaver and start contributing\u2014not a single thing. In fact, the other thing Mr McAnulty fails to mention is while there are 2.9 million people enrolled in KiwiSaver, there are 1.2 million of them that are not making contributions. What they should have been doing is looking at a lower threshold, maybe 2 percent. They could have been looking at maybe having employers still make contributions when employers are on contributions holidays. I swear, I looked over at Mr McAnulty wondering where the wires join at his wrists, because whatever this bill is doing, it certainly is not making it easier for people to join KiwiSaver. This is an opportunity lost. We oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00221db075ac59944ffbac1a41f51cd9cf2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221db075ac59944ffbac1a41f51cd9cf2a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just make it clear to this next speaker that she has the full 10 minutes, because we do not have anyone else. So I call Dr Deborah Russell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022d94d87ca5b2d45cf90cdafa0ddb584c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d94d87ca5b2d45cf90cdafa0ddb584c0\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I\u2019m delighted to have a full 10 minutes to speak on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022668b8f25b041482c9366e06139ac0b24\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought you might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc8daf42b9dc493fa31d7b5aa5356788\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: The Taxation (Annual Rates for 2018-19, Modernising Tax Administration, and Remedial Matters) Bill is a thick and heavy bill. As so many tax bills are, although it contains matters of real policy change which have already been discussed at length in this House, it is also a workhorse bill. It is a bill which contains changes which are there just to keep the tax Act in order, to keep it functioning well. The Income Tax Act is a long and dense Act, but one of the interesting aspects of our tax system in this country is that in large part there is a great deal of agreement about how to run it. We have very few special concessions in the tax Act. We have very few special little rules for special groups of people. It is largely free of the loopholes that exist in other countries where some special rules have been put through to benefit a particular group of people. The attitude of the tax community in this country, and indeed the attitude across the House, is one of getting the Income Tax Act right, to measure income accurately, to measure tax liabilities accurately, and to make sure that each person contributes their share according to the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAs a workhorse bill, this bill contains many provisions which are just there to tidy the Income Tax Act up and to make sure that it keeps on working as it ought. They might not seem like significant changes, but they are real changes. So, for example, I want to turn to a particular change which is to do with changing or adding to the definition of the market interest rate for fringe benefit taxes. Now, in the Income Tax Act, as it stands, market interest is very important because when an employer gives a loan to an employee, that could be a fringe benefit if the rate that is charged on the loan is quite a bit lower than the ordinary rates that are available to the ordinary punter on the streets. This is particularly important for, say, banks and the like. So in the Income Tax Act as it stands, the market interest rate is charged at the arm\u2019s length rate\u2014so the rates that would be set by an ordinary lender, lending to a person who has the characteristics of the person borrowing the loan: the particular income, the particular liabilities, the particular demographics, what kind of interest rate would be charged for that person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThat definition of a market interest rate has worked pretty well for a large number of years, but in recent years there has been somewhat of a shift in the way that interest rates are set. In particular, people have been able to go in and negotiate interest rates. So as it turns out, if a person is a good negotiator, they might be able to obtain a somewhat lower interest rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019ve done in this bill is ensure that that lowest interest rate can be available as the market interest rate that is used for the purpose of the fringe benefit tax legislation. It simply ensures that we are being fair to employers and to employees and we are trying to get the Income Tax Act right. That\u2019s one example of what this bill does just in order to get the right rates of income tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ELet me talk about another issue here that\u2019s a change that\u2019s in the bill. It\u2019s just one of the other policy matters that wasn\u2019t much discussed during the select committee processes, and, actually, no one really had any issues with it. It turns out that businesses often incur expenditure in order to reduce noise. So they want to mitigate noise problems. The trouble is that often that particular bit of expenditure can\u2019t be deducted for tax purposes. It becomes what\u2019s known as black hole expenditure, and it falls into a, sort of, no person\u2019s land: it can\u2019t be deducted and it doesn\u2019t really add to anything. That creates a disincentive for businesses to spend the money to reduce noise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo this bill contains a rather clever measure\u2014and I think it\u2019s really rather nicely done\u2014saying that, in actual fact, if we bring noise mitigation expenditure in under pollution provisions, under pollution remediation provisions, then the businesses can obtain a tax deduction for it. It\u2019s a simple little rule change, and it\u2019s a rather nice one because it ensures that businesses get a perfectly reasonable deduction, and it removes a disincentive to engage in reducing noise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo by these two provisions, which I\u2019ve discussed in a little bit of detail, what I\u2019m showing is just exactly the nature of the work that goes on year in, year out to ensure that our Income Tax Act remains fit for purpose. I commend the officials who work on such matters. I know the hard work that goes into it. I also commend the Ministers who year in, year out, through Minister after Minister, have worked on these sorts of changes, and, of course, the select committees who have worked on them as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ELet me turn to the issues that have been raised at length by the Opposition tonight; that is, the issues of the income tax rates. Despite all the great work that is done in this bill, the Opposition is going to vote against it because they don\u2019t like the tax rates that are set in the annual rates part of this bill. They don\u2019t like those tax rates. They claim that we are taking too much out of New Zealanders\u2019 back pockets and we are taking too much tax out of the economy. They say that we should have put tax rate changes in effect; we should have chosen to reduce the amount of tax that is collected in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI challenge the Opposition on this. Tax is critical for the good functioning of our society. It is through income tax that we fund all of the activities that we enjoy in a civilised society. It is through income tax that we fund our health system. It is through tax that we fund our education system. It is through tax that we build our roads. It is through tax that we fund our welfare system. It is through tax that we pay our police. It is through tax that we have a defence force. The list goes on and on and on. Tax is not just imposed for the fun of it; it is imposed because it funds the society that we want to live in. It is imposed because we need to fund a certain way of living in this society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing is we have a large part of agreement in this country. By and large, we are committed to health; by and large, we are committed to education; by and large, we are committed to welfare, we are committed to roads, and we are committed to defence and police. We argue about the extent of it but not whether we do it at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut we were described as a lazy do-nothing Government. I say: what about the lazy do-nothing former Government? What about the lazy do-nothing former Government that let the hospital buildings crumble? What about the lazy do-nothing former Government that allowed a huge crisis to build in mental health? What about the lazy do-nothing former Government that failed to build any more State housing? These are all activities that are funded through our taxes. So I say to the Opposition, that if the Opposition wants to cut tax rates, what else are they going to cut? What else will they cut? Because that\u2019s the simple equation: if taxes are cut, then necessarily the expenditure must be cut too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had many cries from the Opposition for more expenditure on roads, but how can we spend money on roads if we do not collect an adequate amount of tax in the first place? That is why cutting tax rates, as the Opposition have suggested again and again and again this evening, is simply not an appropriate response. Yes, we can always think about the amount of tax that we ought to be collecting, but at the same time we need to think about what we want to do with those taxes, and at the same time we need to think about how we fund our society. That is why this bill, as it is written, is so important, because it has a fundamental commitment in it to funding our Government and to funding the good of a civilised society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we support all the excellent provisions in this bill and we support the tax rates in it because they are the price of a civilised society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee9a0c1945d04a8283c893172ecbd63c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee9a0c1945d04a8283c893172ecbd63c\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the only thing that Shakespearean performance of note failed to recognise was that we on this side of the House believe that people are better at spending the money themselves than the Government is at spending their money, and that is the critical reason we oppose this bill. But I want to take my short time, rather than talking about that, because enough has been said on that tonight, to talk about a couple of other things in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EOne is the racing industry, and we had great hope for the changes in the racing industry, of course. Unfortunately, they did not work out as they were intended, and our mutual concerns were, I guess, recognised when, in fact, I don\u2019t think one single thoroughbred qualified for the benefits of the tax changes made. Ironically, a number of harness horses may well have qualified, and the interesting thing about it, of course, is that if in the future those price thresholds are changed, it may well have some benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EKiwiSaver has been talked about at great length tonight, and I think those changes are very positive, particularly opening that up to people over 65 years of age. I agree with my friend Mr Hudson, who said that it doesn\u2019t make it any easier at all to join KiwiSaver, because there\u2019s nothing I\u2019ve seen that makes it any easier. The only thing that will make it easier is if they reintroduce the $1,000 and put it in the account before people start. That will certainly make it easier. It leaves it up by a thousand dollars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EAnd, finally, I want to talk briefly about the transformation project, which I think is very positive. It will be intimidating for some people as we work into it, and it won\u2019t be quite as easy as Government members have alluded to to change the secondary tax situation, because, in fact, the secondary tax will still be paid on this. The only difference will be that people will have the ability to calculate those rates, and the IRD will help them to do that, midway through a tax period. So, instead of paying too much or too little tax, they should end up paying the same amount. So I dispute the fact that secondary tax will disappear; it won\u2019t. It will just make it more equitable in some cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo we certainly don\u2019t support the bill, but there\u2019s only one reason we don\u2019t support it, and that is, as I said at the start of my little contribution, that we believe individuals are better at spending their money than the Government is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00220e3573b6f5af453f82d945a128957adf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e3573b6f5af453f82d945a128957adf\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It\u2019s with a real sense of sadness that I hear the same old story again that we need to leave money in the pockets of New Zealanders, and let\u2019s lower the tax rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220341d13e775d4613b6938f53284d0918\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s their own money, Dr Webb. It is their own money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc7a826a45974212b4ac251c1a5b0d28\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: You may say that, but it\u2019s about fiddling around the edges\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f3f0176b6154c4e9f6886796ab3fec7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220baa249fc90e48ecbd0fc2a1ad0651a5\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I\u2019m glad that we are part of a Government that\u2019s looking at the equity of the whole tax system and not looking at just giving a bit more money to the same old few. We need to look at the system as a whole, and this bill is part of doing that. We\u2019re looking forward, though, to a much broader examination of it, and I\u2019m looking forward to that\u2014a real adjustment, real equity in our tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll tell you one thing that I think\u2019s really good about this, and that\u2019s secondary tax, because true hard-working New Zealanders have been suffering under secondary tax for some time. It\u2019s those people who are working, often on very low wages, with two or sometimes three jobs, who have been working across these jobs and who, in their second and third job, are paying an increased tax rate. They\u2019re paying it and they\u2019re not getting it back until the end of the year, when they put their return in. Now, you know what? A lot of these people\u2014people who might be doing cleaning jobs or working in a factory and then as a security guard after\u2014they can\u2019t afford to bank that money and wait till the end of the year. They desperately need it. So making our tax system administratively fair for those people is really, really important, and the ability to have more nuanced tax codes that are more responsive so that people get to keep as much of their money as they can is a really, really good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, one of the things that this means is that there won\u2019t be a tax refund industry\u2014an industry which really preys on the apparent complexity of the system, a system which, in fact, is not as complex as it\u2019s made out to be. But those tax intermediaries, those industries out there who take 30 or 40 percent of a tax refund, really for filling out a very simple form\u2014well, that industry will shrink significantly. They won\u2019t need that large tax refund; they\u2019ll pay only the right amount of tax. That\u2019s a very, very good thing, and I know that a lot of really hard-working New Zealanders in several low-paid jobs are really looking forward to and appreciate that initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, the other thing that\u2019s going on there is the automatic filing of these returns. Can I just say that the Business Transformation project is a great project, a project which is streamlining information and making the tax system administratively much more simple. But one of the things that it does do, and is picked up in this bill, is it automatically calculates tax liability, which means it may require adjustment further down the track. And one of the questions that is addressed here is whether, when we come to correct that, interest or penalties should be payable. In the select committee, I consider it a significant improvement\u2014and, I must say, officials were quizzed at length on penalties and interest and how just they are, and we got to the conclusion that if there\u2019s automatic filing going on, if the return is, essentially, generated within the IRD, then it\u2019s not appropriate to be imposing penalties if it needs later adjustment. So penalties and interest aren\u2019t appropriate there, but it was a good discussion and one where we really moved forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, the other important thing for small business\u2014small and, I must say, medium sized business as well\u2014is the binding ruling process. Now, the fact of the matter is that no matter how hard we try to make our tax system simple, to make it fair and simple at the same time is a challenge, and where we get into complex financial transactions and complex business arrangements, we don\u2019t always know exactly how the tax system interfaces with what\u2019s going on, and business people need certainty. So the binding ruling process is a great idea but it was expensive and long. So the introduction of a short-form process is a great innovation here, but it\u2019s not just for genuinely small businesses. Businesses with a turnover of $5 million\u2014it\u2019s easy to think of a business that might have only five or 10 employees. We wanted to push that out so that for businesses that are significantly larger than that\u2014I can think of professional services firms with 100 employees who turn over around $20 million\u2014a binding ruling process for them is a great innovation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s another innovation here, where taxpayers can go to the IRD in an expedited process and find out their tax position without having to engage in any conflict process. It\u2019s not litigation. It\u2019s very much determining what the best tax position is and it\u2019s binding\u2014that is to say, even if a later decision of the court determines that it wasn\u2019t appropriate, it\u2019s binding as regards the parties to it and those that relied on it. So that again is a very good process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other good thing, of course, and it\u2019s another administrative simplification, is the write-off rule, because quite often there\u2019s a lot of small tax bills floating around and, really, the cost of administering them, the costs of putting in returns, exceed the benefits from it. Whilst the IRD accepted this, it had a relatively complex process, a relatively complex set of rules. And, again, always for simplicity, the Finance and Expenditure Committee looked at those issues and said, \u201CNo, no, we don\u2019t want a whole lot of rules. Let\u2019s have a pretty brightline approach\u201450 bucks. If it\u2019s a tax bill of 50 bucks or less, we\u2019ll write it off.\u201D And that\u2019s going to affect thousands upon thousands of New Zealanders who won\u2019t need to go and file a return. Their tax is not worth collecting and it\u2019s a very good write-off rule. So another win for hard-working New Zealanders out there who won\u2019t have to engage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI just have to say, though, we do need to keep our eye on the fact that our tax system remains one that is based on taxpayer honesty and taxpayer compliance. Whilst a whole lot\u2019s going on inside IRD, and a whole lot of automatic filing\u2019s going on, it is up to the taxpayer, the onus remains on the taxpayer, to ensure that their tax position is correct, and the integrity of the tax system relies on the integrity of New Zealanders who are fair, decent people, know that it\u2019s appropriate to pay their tax and do so in full and on time. These systems are really supportive of that, but they don\u2019t replace it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, with KiwiSaver, we\u2019ve heard already the fantastic improvements to that, and I really didn\u2019t understand the suggestions that these, in some way, were anything other than outstanding innovations. The additional amounts that can be contributed\u20146 and 10 percent\u2014just more options. Let\u2019s give New Zealanders some choice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225b8c0bdcc9b48738397940cc83505c1\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s there to encourage the 1.2 million to start contributing? Come on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247aa73a89eda468593365f3d189af0a5\u0022\u003EHon Kris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they just had $1,000 that you took away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022589c9040e0f642758061283a74ae4f9f\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014and, of course, the five-year lock-in period; we\u2019ve done away with that\u2014more flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259d42dce18024d8c9103ef3d75b57f4b\u0022\u003EHon Kris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s the kick-start?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be5c1099eb384e7fac689462631178ff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s very difficult for the speaker when members on their own side are yelling as well as the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226108a900504749bf8c04993bece6c5ea\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: But Mr Faafoi\u2019s contribution was excellent, I must say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb8ccd4c832448049a9d65bae27ee496\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he doesn\u2019t have the floor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7a70f586a4346b5a15a83576dceccdf\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: He doesn\u2019t need it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aaf5821a5d84c4bb36edf49f12d8831\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! To move finally to something which I thought was important, and another one which really showed the rigour that a select committee\u2014and, I must say, the Regulations Review Committee\u2014can bring to these proceedings, is the care and management rules. It was proposed that the commissioner have an ability to, essentially, suspend the operation of parts of the law where there were obvious drafting errors and the purpose of the Act wasn\u2019t achieved. Those powers were stated broadly, and the Regulations Review Committee, which I am lucky enough to sit on, pointed this out to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which I\u2019m also lucky enough to sit on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo we took cognisance of that, looked at it, and suggested that further scrutiny of that was required because, of course, it\u2019s an extraordinary power for a member of the Public Service to be able to, essentially, suspend the operation of the Tax Administration Act, which is what was happening here. Now, whilst we accept that legislation can grind relatively slowly through Parliament, we wanted real scrutiny of any legislation which conferred that kind of power not on Parliament, not on the executive, but on a member of the Public Service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo that section of the legislation, that care and management section, was taken out of the legislation and it is coming back before the committee in another guise, in another tax Act, to have a closer look at, and I look forward to seeing that, because it\u2019s an indication of the real scrutiny and, I think, the real quality improvements that can be achieved in this kind of legislation. But overall, this is a bill that really does help New Zealanders and it helps New Zealanders, especially those hard-working New Zealanders on lower incomes in respect of secondary tax. A fantastic addition to our tax law. Well done, Minister. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228fdb272e8b4142bfbeb1ce358ee9f9bd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2018-19, Modernising Tax Administration, and Remedial Matters) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022292bb613352840b4bdabfbaa0491b46e\u0022\u003ELocal Government Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ca9edde41aa429095cca7978ae3fac0\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000680\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 7 March.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00225dc5bfb59dc449068cf41de057a062e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225dc5bfb59dc449068cf41de057a062e8\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. It\u2019s a great privilege to resume my call on the Local Government Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill. We were last debating or discussing this bill on Thursday night last week, so it\u2019s great to be able to pick up and talk about all the good things that this bill will deliver for local government and for New Zealanders. I\u2019d like to also acknowledge the excellent contribution of my colleague Jamie Strange, who spoke to the points last Thursday and made such a strong contribution to how dog parks and various other aspects of this bill will enhance participation of New Zealanders to be able to engage with their local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAs part of the Governance and Administration Committee, that heard this bill, we received and considered 18 submissions on the bill, and it was great to be able to hear from different interest groups. Two key local government sector groups, Local Government New Zealand and the Society of Local Government Managers, submitted in support of the bill, and it\u2019s good to see that we\u2019ve had that engagement so far. One of the key areas that this bill goes towards changing is, interestingly, around how public notices are notified to the public, and as we\u2019ve seen a big change away from print media and on to online, this bill will enable public notices to be notified in a way that people will engage online as well as hard copy if they wish to. So it\u2019s good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAs this omnibus bill tidies up a range of different areas, one of the ones that I\u2019ll just pick up on that I particularly like that the committee made a slight change to, but has strengthened it, I believe, is that the bill seeks to really look at increasing diversity in local government, and that\u2019s good to see. It encourages participation in a wider sense, because what we do see, sometimes, is declining rates in some areas of New Zealand of people voting in their local government elections. With some of the remuneration of those key roles, we also see people struggling to be able to actually earn a salary and pay their weekly expenses. There is an increasing number of New Zealanders who have retired who have taken up that role, because it is only those who tend to be able to afford to live on that salary. So that\u2019s a point that we need to be looking at for local government, to make sure we encourage young people and people from a range of different ethnicities and backgrounds and experiences to be able to represent New Zealanders at that level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe amendment to the Local Electoral Act introduces a new duty to facilitate and foster representative and substantial electoral participation. The committee has made the change that\u2014we recommended that this duty be placed with a chief executive officer, rather than the electoral officers. The chief executives, we considered, would be well-placed facilitating and fostering electoral participation and that that would be reflected throughout their organisations and in their approach to how they\u2019re going about planning their elections. The current low level of participation in local elections means that the membership of councils is often less diverse than the communities they serve, and it would be great to see that change over time. The committee recognised there was some overlap between matters raised in the submissions on the bill and the Justice Committee\u2019s inquiry into the 2017 general election and the 2016 local elections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe one other point I\u2019ll touch on before finishing is that the bill looks at really aligning a range of terms, and it removes the ambiguity from the local government regulatory system. There are various provisions in the bill where we want to make sure that the same language is used across other pieces of legislation in order to avoid confusion, and one example of this is the standardisation of the definition of \u201Cworking day\u201D across local government legislation. This will clarify the time allowed for statutory processes and will reduce the complexity of these processes for local authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhile we\u2019re talking about the working day and local government, can I commend the Hutt City Council for agreeing to pay people the living wage in terms of their working day. It\u2019s been great to see that happen\u2014big supporter of the living wage all around. So congratulations, Hutt City Council, for achieving that over a long period of time. Thank you very much for the opportunity to add to this, and I commend this excellent bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022451dc9fbbf3946f2937df7d01642630f\u0022\u003ELocal Electoral Matters Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df07317c87e2475399494da8ebd338e3\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002290d6b3a8d9dd455fab8c091fffd2b20c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290d6b3a8d9dd455fab8c091fffd2b20c\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Local Government: I move, That the Local Electoral Matters Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe Local Electoral Matters Bill modernises two pieces of legislation to provide greater flexibility and to enable local electoral arrangements to adapt to changing circumstances, such as developing new voting methods for the future. The bill is one component of a broader effort to improve civic participation in local government. On behalf of the Minister of Local Government, I would like to thank the Justice Committee for its constructive consideration of the bill. I would also like to thank the 27 submitters on the bill, especially the nine submitters who made oral submissions to the committee. The Government was particularly pleased to see that submitters from the local government sector and those on behalf of the visually impaired were supportive of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe 27 public submissions covered all parts of the bill and provided useful perspectives on the proposals. The Justice Committee has recommended amendments to the bill in response to some of the issues raised in submissions and to help ensure the bill achieves its stated objectives. The Government supports these amendments, and a number of amendments have been made to reflect these recommendations, which I will speak to briefly. I would also like to thank the National Party for the support expressed separately in the Justice Committee\u2019s commentary and for their constructive approach to the bill in the committee. I can assure them that the Government is very aware of the risks in trialling any new voting method, particularly in an online environment, and especially under the pressure of an imminent local election. However, the Government is also aware that some risk will always exist, and these need to be managed prudently rather than preventing any form of innovation or progress occurring in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EFor many New Zealanders, filling out their ballot papers every three years is the only way to influence decision making in local government. Therefore, it is vital that the legislative framework for the local elections supports opportunities to ensure that voting in local elections is as easy and accessible as possible. The Local Electoral Matters Bill makes changes to better achieve this aim. Changes to the cost and regularity of postal services are creating increased challenges to deliver postal voting effectively and affordably to New Zealanders. The Local Electoral Act 2001 was enacted to provide for the only two voting methods known at the time, and that was postal voting and polling booth voting. However, the legislation still envisaged and made provision for the possibility of other voting methods in the future, including electronic or online voting. It is in this context that the changes in this bill are the first step in a wider programme to improve the operation and effectiveness of local elections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe bill has two parts. Part 1 of the bill amends the Local Electoral Act 2001 to make the explicit provision for local authorities to conduct trials of new voting methods. In particular, the bill introduces authority for trials of new voting methods to be limited to subsets of electors in a local election. Currently, a local authority running an election is required to consult with other bodies that are party to the election before adopting a voting method. The Government supports the amendment made by the Justice Committee to ensure that these consultation requirements also apply to local authority resolutions to trial a new voting method, including a trial that would only apply to a specified subset of electors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESignificantly, the Justice Committee also recommended the creation of new contingency mechanisms to be available in the event of a serious problem with a voting system. During the consideration of the bill, officials from the Department of Internal Affairs identified two scenarios that cannot be adequately provided for under the current framework of the Local Electoral Act, either directly or under enabling regulations, for a new voting method. The two scenarios relate to identification of major problems at different stages of the election: firstly, during the voting period; and, secondly, after polling has closed. Where a significant problem occurs during the voting period, there needs to be provision for the electoral officer to make a formal decision that a component of a voting system has been compromised or has failed, and that the component and votes already cast using it must be abandoned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe critical aspect that cannot be dealt with under existing provisions is enabling electors to vote again when their votes have been abandoned. The Act is very clear that no person can vote twice. The explicit provision inserted by the Justice Committee circumvents this restriction where the initial votes have been formally abandoned. In the event that a serious failure of the voting system is discovered after the polling has closed, the District Court should be able to direct that an election outcome be voided and the election held again. However, the Act currently provides that a District Court inquiry can only be initiated by a candidate or 10 electors, and only after the full results have been announced. Relying on this provision would require official results to be announced and outgoing members to leave the office and elected members to take office while court action is in progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EObviously, this mechanism is not fit for purpose for developing a new voting method, and there should be a provision for the electoral officer to initiate a court inquiry without official results taking effect. The Government supports the committee\u2019s recommendation that the electoral officer be given the power to apply to the District Court, after the voting period is complete, seeking a judgment that the election may be voided and rerun. While the proposed mechanism would apply to all local elections, the Government considers it to be particularly relevant to trials of new voting methods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EPart 2 of the bill amends the Electoral Act 1993 to allow people analysing voter participation in local elections to use age group information for this analysis. The Justice Committee accepted the suggestion from submitters that this clause be extended to also provide access to M\u0101ori descent information. The Government agrees that there is value in providing electoral participation researchers with access to details about M\u0101ori descent information in addition to age group information. The extension to the clause may assist in identifying and removing barriers to M\u0101ori participation in local body elections. Part 2 of the bill also amends the Electoral Act to allow local authorities to be supplied with date of birth information from the database of registered electors where this is explicitly required in order to conduct an election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EClause 12 amends section 113 of the Electoral Act 1993. The clause requires the Electoral Commission to supply an electoral official of a local authority with electors\u2019 date of birth information for the purpose of conducting any election, by-election, or poll. The primary reason for local authorities to require date of birth information is to support voter authentication at the time of voting. Date of birth authentication avoids creating a new barrier to participation or significant extra costs, and it is information held both by the elector and the Electoral Commission that is not published on the roll or printed on voting papers. This makes it an efficient means of authenticating electors. This information may also be used for other purposes related to an election, by-election, or poll using future voting methods. An example of this might be for scrutiny of the roll during the official count.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ELocal government representatives expressed that having flexibility in its options to authenticate voters was important. Flexibility will also allow local authorities to work with online service providers on the best option, allow for innovation, and potentially to trial more than one approach to authentication. The bill provides for the secure use and destruction of the date of birth information. This date of birth information is defined in regulations as \u201Cspecified material\u201D and, as such, will be placed in secure containers, with the electoral officer endorsing and signing a memorandum describing the contents. The Government supports the committee\u2019s amendments also to further clarify the circumstances in which date of birth information can be provided to local authorities and to ensure that date of birth information is not supplied in any other circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EOnce again, can I thank the individuals and the groups that made submissions on the bill and the Justice Committee for its improvements to the bill. The Local Electoral Matters Bill benefits New Zealanders, because it will provide an enduring framework for efficient and effective local body elections that can adapt to changing circumstances. The changes in this bill, together with a wider work programme to improve the accessibility and effective operation of local elections, will support local democracy by ensuring all electors have a reasonable and equal opportunity to vote in local body elections. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2908012f27f4dd6a32f1c178b853f31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2908012f27f4dd6a32f1c178b853f31\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I would be overstating this bill if I called it \u201Csmall beer\u201D. I would describe it as micro-brewing. So insignificant are the provisions in this bill that for the Acting Minister of Local Government, Kris Faafoi, to just have spoken and described this as a linchpin of the Government\u2019s reforms for local government really does show just how feeble a programme this Government has in the important area of local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet me begin by taking the House through exactly what the bill does. The law currently allows for the trial of novel voting methods. All this bill does is that you can try novel voting methods in the subset of a council. That is, if you wanted to trial internet voting in a local board area in Auckland, this bill would allow you to do it. Now, how many members of the House really believe that introducing that provision to the law is going to solve all the challenges that apply to local government? But there\u2019s more\u2014there\u2019s more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill is going to allow councils to be able to collect age-related data on voter participation. That\u2019s not a bad thing\u2014members on this side of the House support it. Councils should be able to know that there is a such and such participation rate of 20-year-olds and a high level of participation rate for older people. That\u2019s information that might help councils. But when members opposite pretend that somehow this is the great breakthrough for improving the decline in local government participation that\u2019s occurred over the last 20 years, I say to the Government to go back to the drawing board. You are micro-managing in the extreme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, when the Minister of Local Government introduced this bill she said it was going to be the flagship for introducing internet voting into local government. National has said in its minority view that we have a real caution in that regard. These members opposite were very gung ho about conducting the census all on the internet, and we all know how that went. It was a flop, and the Minister of Statistics still has questions to answer in that regard. Actually, running our voting system is far more important. In the National minority view on this bill we draw attention to the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine in the US that has produced a very comprehensive report on the very real risks of introducing internet voting. National is not saying we\u2019re opposed; what we say in this bill is it needs to be done with substantive care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe Justice Committee introduced quite extensive amendments to the Government\u2019s original bill because of this caution, and these amendments were driven by National members wanting to be absolutely sure that we maintain the integrity of the vote. Nothing is more important in our democracy than making sure that people are not able to hack into the counting systems for votes, and that people are not able to pretend they\u2019re voting for someone else. And that becomes very difficult to administer when people may be sitting at home on their computer casting a vote and you never know for sure who it is that is actually on that computer voting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe last set of amendments in this bill provide for researchers being able to get some extra information out of our electoral system for them to be able to do research. Again, National members support that. But I say again to the Government: anybody who pretends that these very minor changes to the Local Electoral Act and to the Electoral Act 1993 are really kidding themselves if they think this is going to make any substantive difference to the major issues that face our councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI reflect back on those big, bold promises that were made by Minister Nanaia Mahuta when she first became Minister. There was 18 months of work and we end up with this micro-brewing bill that will make diddly squat of difference to anywhere in New Zealand. The reason that I will not take the first call is it\u2019s not worth the time of the House. The way the bill has been tidied up makes a reasonable job on some reasonably minor amendments. I challenge the Government to bring some decent local government reform to this House. It is an area where we need improvement, and this bill makes such minor differences that it barely cuts the mustard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00225b49a6e73cae41fcb9987f4e7cb667c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b49a6e73cae41fcb9987f4e7cb667c5\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak on the Local Electoral Matters Bill. It is another excellent piece of legislation, making local government work even better than it already does in New Zealand. I like this bill that came to the Justice Committee, and I enjoyed hearing the submissions on it, and I very much enjoyed engaging with the members opposite on the select committee about how we refine and improve this bill. So it does come as some surprise to hear such complaints that this bill is \u201Cmicro-brewing\u201D, I understand was the term that was used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhat I see is an incredibly bold move to take a step towards a different way of voting. So we know the current provisions within the Local Electoral Act will provide postal voting and a polling booth. But what this bill does is it looks at being able to enable a trial of online voting, whether that be to a specific group. It might be those people in an area that have disability issues. It might be somewhere where there are people over 65. It might be younger people. So it enables a local body to make that determination as to how they would like to work with online voting. And it was interesting to note that Nick Smith, the member opposite, had such concerns that this bill wasn\u2019t making any fundamental changes. But from that side, I also heard great hesitation in making that transition to online voting\u2014great scare that technology would not be able to adapt to democracy and be able to provide that security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe very much heard those concerns during the committee from those members, even though we heard so many submissions that really wanted to be able to embrace online voting, because of the benefit it provides for participation and because of the benefit it provides for increasing the current low levels of local government engagement that we see right across the country\u2014down to 22 percent in some areas, which is really disconcerting. So I think this is a bold bill, because it goes to try and take the first step to enable local government to work by making online voting work in a secure way, in a way that they feel in control of, and in a way that they can determine how to roll that out gradually in order not to move too quickly or too fast. So I think that this does an excellent work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhen I think about some of those barriers to local government participation, I think of myself. I think of what I did in the last local election. I filled out my form. I read up on all the councillors and who I would like. I ticked my boxes, and I put it in the envelope, and I put it on the front seat of my car, and I drove around with it for over a week, because I couldn\u2019t find a mailbox. The National Party got rid of them all, and we can only get the post three days a week. So the fact that we don\u2019t have so many post boxes or such regular mail is a great barrier. So we do need to be moving towards online voting, because it will enable more people to be able to go about their daily business, in their work, and still engage in local government. We shouldn\u2019t make it harder for people to vote. We should make it easier for people to vote, and that\u2019s exactly what this bill does. It gives us a reality check.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo, specifically, it provides a mechanism to limit the risks of trialling a new voting method. Having that data is also a great asset to have for local government. Having better-quality data on voters will give better insight into voter turnout\u2014why people did or did not turn out. Given the last bill that we\u2019ve just been talking about, it will also enable local government to own that area and decide how they\u2019re going to design those elections to maximise the turnout particular to their own unique circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt will enable better engagement, so I\u2019m proud to see that. An area where we have some of the lowest turnout groups for local government participation are M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and youth, and we need to really up that. We totally need to up that, and we need to make sure that we just don\u2019t continually have the same people representing a wider body that is not reflective of those people. So we want to move away from \u201Cpale, male, and stale\u201D. We want to be able to have a far more diverse, informed, and operating local government that reflects the needs of the community and that builds facilities and things in their area that respond to those needs, and I think this bill makes an excellent step of moving in that direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EOne of the interesting ones, too, is it will largely benefit the next generation. The changes that we are putting through now will really be seen in the next group of young people coming up, who are so eager to be able to be represented. The communities that are being shaped at local government level in terms of what cycleways or what roads or what parks\u2014if those young people will be benefiting from those, it\u2019s so important that they have a say in that design and that they have a say in how that community takes shape in order for them to feel part of where they live and for them to grow up in a community that reflects what they want to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really important that we acknowledge the good work that\u2019s gone on from officials that enabled us to be able to make necessary changes, and\u2014in conclusion\u2014I would also like to acknowledge that we recommended some new contingency mechanisms. There were ongoing concerns raised by members of the National Party in relation to a serious problem occurring in the voting system, and so there have been amendments to the bill to enable an extra process in that level, should there be a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe do see problems sometimes in our local government elections. Here in Wellington, I understand, there was a rogue postie who pinched a couple of thousand voting forms right during the voting time, and that caused a real upheaval. People had to get their envelopes again. So I\u2019m just pointing that out to say that it\u2019s not just online voting and not just the internet that has its challenges with meeting the needs of democracy. All forms of voting have those concerns, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s up to us, as good members of Parliament, to be able to make sure that the system is as robust as possible, that people participate as much as they can, and that we have our local government and central government that work well in unison to give people the best possible services that they need. So, without further ado, I commend this most excellent local government bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9c317175ecf4b858e1ca7a74ade9994\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9c317175ecf4b858e1ca7a74ade9994\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s a bit of a worry when a couple of minor clauses\u2014a couple of minor changes to the Local Electoral Act and the Electoral Act\u2014deserve such fulsome praise from Government backbenchers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EIt is a bit of a worry when you consider that those two minor changes to clauses, one of which\u2014so the existing law does allow online voting, and all this one does is to allow online voting to be trialled in a ward rather than in a local authority area. Then the other part of the bill is to make age-related data available to be provided in a statistical format by age band to a local authority\u2014oh, my goodness me! It deserves its own bill, and it deserves fulsome praise and exposition by Government backbenchers, because, quite frankly, they need to show that this Government is doing something when, in fact, this Government isn\u2019t doing anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EOr\u2014or\u2014my other theory here is that the Three Waters Review reforms being cooked up by the Minister of Local Government, Nanaia Mahuta, are going to be so unpopular that they are just trying to lull the local government sector into believing that \u201COh, yes, we\u2019ve got a Government that\u2019s supporting us. We\u2019ve got a Government that\u2019s doing things for us.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s what they\u2019re saying. No, just wait\u2014just wait until Nanaia Mahuta brings her proposals for compulsory aggregation of water services to this Parliament, and then watch the fallout. But, anyway, in the meantime, we\u2019re dealing with this most worthy bill, which makes the two most minor changes to clauses known to mankind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBack in the day, back when the last, most excellent National Government was in, these two minor clauses fell across my desk, as I was the Associate Minister of Local Government. I had a couple of options, but my preferred options\u2014well, let\u2019s go through them. So they could have gone into a regulatory systems bill, just about. They just about would have fitted into a regulatory systems bill. There is one. The Labour Government have brought one into the House. It\u2019s sitting on the Order Paper. It could have gone into a statutes amendment bill. It could have fitted there very well, but no, it needed its own bill. Well, how exciting for them and how underwhelming for the rest of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002275474e5617e5401e80561369a4fe801e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275474e5617e5401e80561369a4fe801e\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. Just replying to some of the previous speakers like the Hon Nick Smith, who might be pleased to know that when we look at what the issues are around local bodies and the poor turnout, actually, his own electorate of Nelson, at 52 percent, had the highest turnout at the last election. So perhaps Mr Nick Smith\u2019s passion in this House has outraged\u2014perhaps the outrage at the Nelson market on a Saturday morning might just be having some effect. So, there you go\u2014he\u2019s very pleased. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe next one down was Dunedin, at 45 percent, and the numbers go down thenceforth, so that\u2019s where we actually look at the need to have this bill to increase participation. In fact, it\u2019s gone down from 2010, when there was a 49 percent turnout nationally, to 41 percent in 2013. It did consolidate in 2016, at 42 percent\u2014up 0.2 percent. But therein lies the problem. We come to this House and we talk about democracy, and I think there\u2019s no one in this House who would profess to be anything other than a great believer in democracy\u2014that very system that has us all standing, or sitting, here tonight. But, like any democratic process, it\u2019s participation that we really must ensure that we increase, because without participation, we end up with something of a pseudo-democratic system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo it behoves us to look at ways that we can engage, particularly, our younger members of the public. It\u2019s quite interesting that when you look at the demographic, of course, in the South Island, where the average age of people is higher, it\u2019s a greater turnout, and if you go to Auckland, it\u2019s very low. It behoves us to look at ways that we can get our younger population voting in local body elections and, indeed, what better way to do it. We are not a great example in this House. One only has to look around here at any one time to see how many heads are down, looking at our devices, but we probably are fogies compared to many of our younger contemporaries, who spend their whole lives on these devices. So it does make sense that in any attempt we make to increase their participation, we obviously have to look at modern methods, and, of course, electronic voting is the most logical way to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ELook, at the Justice Committee, we did examine this. Obviously, we only have to look around the world to see examples of where other countries have used electronic methods to interfere with others and to influence others. So it is important that we do actually have protections in place, and that\u2019s why with this bill\u2014despite the criticisms of those opposite\u2014whatever we do, we\u2019ve got to make sure that it does stand the test of time. So what better way to test it than to give our local bodies the ability to use electronic voting, and that\u2019s essentially what this bill does. It gives our local bodies the opportunity to decide\u2014particularly locally\u2014what will suit them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ENowhere in this bill is it a substitute for our mail voting. In fact, when we talk about fraud and the possibility of fraud, one of the things at the moment is, of course, that virtually all local bodies use some form of postal voting. The old days of having voting sites are pretty much gone in local body elections. Of course, there is also how many forms turn up at different houses, and, truth be known, we will never know how many of those voting forms are filled out by one person in those houses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAgain, it\u2019s something that, while electronic voting will not overcome that\u2014it will be the same problem, but electronic footprints, in many ways, or electronic fingerprints, left behind in the case of any inquiries into such behaviour are more likely to be able to be tracked down than even doing so on a paper-based voting system. So I think this is something that its time has come. There\u2019ll be those that are surprised we haven\u2019t gone further, but I think, with electronic voting, you know, we do, and rightfully, need to be very careful to protect our democracy to ensure that as we build it slowly and learn from our experiences\u2014and, in fact, if you have a look at this bill, there are safeguards within the bill to ensure that where there are unsatisfactory results, where it is believed that an election has gone awry for any reason, then there is the opportunity to ensure that there is a remedy put in place. That is, again, well covered in this bill. So I commend this bill to the House as a piece of legislation whose time has arrived, and I have no doubt that it will form the basis, the building blocks, of a much better voting system and, hopefully, will increase voter participation. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002207f3ec2ea54a44abb434797775cef4da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207f3ec2ea54a44abb434797775cef4da\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve got to be honest: I\u2019m not even really too sure what the last speaker, Greg O\u2019Connor, said, other than the fact that I got \u201Cbuilding blocks\u201D out of it. The reason for it is\u2014he put up a gallant effort, I\u2019ll give him that, but this is a lightweight bill. This is a lightweight bill. We saw the new Government come in, and they made big promises about online voting, but what did we get? We got this bill instead. We had poor old the Hon Kris Faafoi come down and, again, put up a sterling effort to make it look like there was some heavy lifting being done by the Government, but there\u2019s not much; they\u2019re low-level flyers at the moment, because, really, all this bill does is put up some trials. But you know what? I was reflecting on it, and I was thinking that\u2019s probably a good thing, because we trusted the Government with our census, and that didn\u2019t go too well. We\u2019re still trying to get that fixed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267dbc6cca08b44dfa51098ac95b385d4\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: Who signed off on it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b2afee214ac4276a979fa7ac6c1503c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: What was that? We\u2019ve got the Hon Tracey Martin in here. Boy, that\u2019s surprising. New Zealand First\u2014I thought they\u2019d be off sorting out all their problems and trying to get their probity, integrity, and all those sorts of issues sorted out. But as they start to find their voice here\u2014we\u2019ll have to sort that one out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThis is a lightweight bill. They are trying to make some changes on the fringes, so we\u2019ll give them that, but, actually, it doesn\u2019t go anywhere near close to the promises that were made at the last election, and that was, quite simply, this: that there\u2019d be an online voting system delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo we do commend the bill to the House\u2014we will support the bill\u2014but we feel like there could have been a lot more substance to it. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5513f0230e64d0bbf972bb59aa688ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5513f0230e64d0bbf972bb59aa688ac\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise in support of this bill. It is a bill that comes as part of a suite of measures that will be rolled out in time to modernise and make our local body electoral system more effective, and futureproof them\u2014futureproof them for New Zealanders who know that, actually, democracy has to work at every level, not just in here but out there in the regions and in the super-city where I\u2019m from, where we\u2019re looking forward to the election and we\u2019re still, I think, most Aucklanders, getting their heads around that system. So it is timely to say that this engagement has happened, and I do thank and commend the Justice Committee for the work that they did. I was heartened to see that they heard submissions from members of the public, members of the local government sector, and members of the disabilities community, who all came to have their voices heard in terms of what might help their communities in accessing their local democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo this bill allows local body electoral systems to trial different types of voting systems. One such trial may\u2014and everyone, I think, who has spoken so far has focused on online voting. That is one kind of trial that we foresee this bill will allow, and it is important, given we know the accessibility issues that different types of communities have, actually. We\u2019ve talked about youth\u2014they are a very underrepresented group in terms of engagement in every level of our democracy. So that may make our democracy more accessible to those who will benefit from it for the longest period of time ahead in their lives, but it may also help people who are in geographically remote areas, those with different types of disability, as submitters pointed out; it may help those in the aged community, actually, who may have different types of accessibility issues as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also heard that local body engagement is as low as 22 percent in some areas of New Zealand, and that\u2019s frightening, given so much that comes from engagement at the local level, whether that\u2019s civic planning, whether that\u2019s public transport, our parks, the types of events that we can hold in our communities\u2014which will in turn feed more and more democratic engagement. So it is really, really important that we allow for democratisation and modernisation of that system, and that has been a long time coming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe also know that demographics that are least engaged in local democracy also include tangata whenua, the Pacific community, other migrant communities\u2014again, a huge concern in Auckland, where I\u2019m from: our most diverse civic centre, where we have so many local boards working on so many different issues in all the different areas, with so many different concerns for their communities, and all feeding up to local council, which deals with different issues again, and the mayoralty race, which will be watched this year with great interest. All of these will be able to have processes specially designed and trialled as time goes on by those most affected by them so that they might better engage their communities, who will, in turn, then benefit from the work of the local boards and the councillors, and kind of, in fact, shape their communities and their democracy as we go along. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe fact that there is so much rigidity in the way that local government and local electoral bodies are able to engage with their communities and to diversify the way that they allow both voting and engagement has probably fed the lack of engagement so far and has actually crippled our democracy. So we do need to remember that where the Electoral Commission makes recommendations, where our submitters ask for a different approach, we do need to listen. I\u2019m currently trying to address that in a bill that will, hopefully, be picked up either by the Government or through the ballot to modernise this system, based on the same principle. We need to take politics out of the way we do electoral reform, and this bill, I\u2019m happy to see, has that support from across the House, and the approach of the Justice Committee was really heartening to that. So let\u2019s see more of that when it comes to electoral reform for New Zealand. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u002250e30e6e50724f36a1176834f8d96e09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250e30e6e50724f36a1176834f8d96e09\u0022\u003EHon MAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I rise to speak at the second reading of the Local Electoral Matters Bill, a bill that promised much and delivered little\u2014much like the Government, really. Minor changes well short of the mark\u2014an online voting bill, I suppose, and while we on this side of the House think it\u2019s a good idea to explore it, this bill really didn\u2019t deliver a whole lot. Having sat on the Justice Committee, which considered the submissions and was involved in the consultation with the local government and other bodies that came through to speak about this, I think we do have to remember that the final decision on proceeding with an internet voting trial this year, following the passage of this bill\u2014and it will pass, and we do support it\u2014does rest with councils and local government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a lot to learn from what not to do with online voting. We\u2019ve been very cautious about it in the past. I recall, as the Minister of Conservation, looking very carefully at how people who were on the conservation islands in remote locations would be able to have that opportunity to use the internet to contribute their vote in a democratic way. But sending voting papers from overseas, as with outlying islands; fishing vessels, as well, fall into that category\u2014we still believe that there needs to be a paper ballot to be generated, and we remain cautious about using the internet to vote, generally, until the security issues, which many people spoke to the committee about, have been fully resolved, and they are not showing any signs of that occurring at this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EBut we do support the bill. We agree it provides some very useful additional tools for improving participation in local elections and, of course, participating in democracy is what we want people to be able to do, but we don\u2019t believe it\u2019s the magic bullet. We don\u2019t believe it\u2019s the only answer. I think there has been a lot of hype, a lot of expectations raised that this bill will deliver the solution to really, I suppose, the inertia and the antipathy\u2014really, is what it comes down to on some occasions: people that are just not engaged and don\u2019t want to bother voting. There are a lot of underlying major issues that we need to think about in regards to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003ERecasting the vote with an online sort of voting system: I think electors need, and we need as legislators, some form of a contingency mechanism in case there are problems because, there are problems\u2014and other speakers have alluded to them\u2014and they occur within postal voting as well. But when there are issues, you need to be able to put it right, as L V Martin once memorably said. What a character he was. But in the sense of something as important as your democratic vote being either lost or somehow misrepresented, there does need to be, in our view on this side of the House, a trial, but we need to be really careful, and we need to make sure that there are contingency reports and contingency measures, I should say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003ESo the Justice Committee did recommend that the bill be passed with amendments, which is why, on the side of the House, we\u2019re not spending a whole lot of time on it. We have spoken about it at some length and it\u2019s gone through the due process. As I said at the outset, this bill delivered not very much but promised a lot. I think that the less said about it the better. Let\u2019s move through the progress of other important legislation in this House. With that I commend the bill to the House but with reservations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002227e658b9ddf44308b562ff13680f4c61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227e658b9ddf44308b562ff13680f4c61\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, this is a split call, five minutes. I call Dr Duncan Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022b833f152b30c44d381e76fa909944d63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b833f152b30c44d381e76fa909944d63\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I\u2019m a bit confused because, on the one hand, the National Party is saying \u201CDon\u2019t leap into electronic voting boots and all.\u201D, and on the other they\u2019re saying it\u2019s a missed opportunity. So I\u2019m really not quite sure. Perhaps they should talk to each other and organise themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut you know what? The other thing that strikes me is there they are talking about the need for paper voting. I don\u2019t know where they\u2019ve been for the last 20 years, because what we have here is a step forward. They might think that a postal system is going to be the future of voting but, you know what, I don\u2019t. I can\u2019t see all of the future, but I can tell you what, posting letters is something that most people under 30 have never done and never intend to do. So we need to catch up and move in to electronic voting, and that\u2019s what this does. It does it in a very measured and a very careful way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EFirst of all, it gives the ability for a trial to be conducted, but what it also does\u2014and this was the improvement that the select committee brought to the bill\u2014is it puts significant safeguards in place because we recognise that when anything is under trial, there may be errors. And if there are errors, we need to be able to intervene. So the electoral officer is given considerable powers\u2014and this was at the behest of the select committee\u2014to intervene and say \u201CHang on. That\u2019s not working. For the purposes of this trial, the people who have cast their vote electronically need to go and cast it again in the traditional manner. Now, that\u2019s a really useful safeguard and, in fact, if the trial\u2019s a significant one, the electoral officer has the power to apply to void the election\u2014a very serious step; a step that wouldn\u2019t be taken lightly, of course, and subject to judicial oversight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut what we have here is a step forward, because we need to start engaging in making voting accessible, understandable, and easy. Whilst the majority of the National Party may have grown up with carrier pigeons, what we have here is a bill that uses modern, accessible technology, which is understandable by the majority of New Zealanders, by people who have grown up using emails, who have grown up using secure systems to buy things, to communicate with others, and all sorts of things. The suggestion that there is some fatal flaw; that electronic voting is not sustainable\u2014there\u2019s simply not the evidence to back it up. Electronic voting is used in important elections across New Zealand already. We only have to look at shareholder voting to see that. Those kinds of votes are important votes\u2014absolutely secure; no suggestion of fraud. Notwithstanding that there are many millions of dollars at stake and, if it was susceptible, no doubt someone would have had a go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo what we have here is a step forward. It gives the ability to local authorities to make these decisions, but it\u2019s a great step in the right direction whilst, as Ms Ghahraman said, we are looking to further democratise New Zealand, to make our democracy\u2014what goes on in local Government and elsewhere\u2014more accessible to all New Zealanders. That\u2019s absolutely a good thing. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00223bca91f6ffcf4f4a97116dd82400aaa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bca91f6ffcf4f4a97116dd82400aaa3\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Assistant Speaker, for the opportunity to speak to the Local Electoral Matters Bill at this, the second reading. It\u2019s been noted, I think, on both sides of the House that in terms of voter participation, this won\u2019t be a silver bullet. Indeed, it won\u2019t be a silver ballot, I suppose you could say and, in fact, pretty modest change is even attempted here. It\u2019s transformational in the sense that the Government itself is transformational, which is to say \u201CNot achieving very much indeed.\u201D And if we\u2019re talking about the trials of the new methods of voting, let us hope that it\u2019s a trial and the sense of a pilot, and not in the sense of tribulation, as we\u2019ve seen with other debacles or shemozzles as we might otherwise describe, for example, the recent census.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOther members on this side of the House have noted the New Zealand National Party view, as expressed in the select committee report, and we noted in that a report by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine\u2014I think not perhaps a submission before the select committee. Although I have to say it wasn\u2019t part of that process, but it emphasized the need for human readable ballots to be able to maintain and guarantee the security and verifiability of the vote. So a couple of different aspects there: electoral integrity\u2014to use that phrase in a more pure way than has often been used in the last 18 months\u2014must be not only done but also be seen to be done. So it\u2019s the ability to understand that we have a system with integrity\u2014to be able to verify that that\u2019s the case as well as, in fact, for that to be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not one to speak longer than is necessary on any bill, so therefore I conclude with the comment, as with others, that we support the bill with some reservations as noted and we look forward to seeing what further, if any, the Government might come up with in this regard, as they have indeed promised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002200246c54958445cd8f4f9b3799277aa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200246c54958445cd8f4f9b3799277aa1\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. It gives me pleasure to rise and take a short call on behalf of New Zealand First and the Government on the Local Electoral Matters Bill. I just want to note the report back from the select committee. I will acknowledge that the select committee put a great deal of thought into the consideration of the bill. I notice the National Party minority view is in there as stated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI also note with some interest that there has been a little bit of criticism of the Government when it has come to the matters of electronic or digital voting\u2014one of the options, one of the matters that is covered in this bill, and a lot of reference, I understand, to the census that\u2019s just recently been conducted, as though people are drawing parallels with the two options. It does strike me as a little bizarre that we should hear those criticisms at this point, at this reading of this bill, because the fact of the matter is this Government\u2014when it came to the census and all of the provisions that have been put in place and all the decisions that have been made, they had been made by the previous Cabinet. We simply carried on with the work within the very short\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022178ed92ee09b4ff788adc1c23d7fa86c\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: You guys had to run it. You couldn\u2019t run it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261a74ba7764441e8b1687a971b7fb0f6\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: There goes Mr Mitchell over there \u201Cyappering\u201D away\u2014the most ineffective Minister of Defence this country\u2019s ever seen other than Mark Burton. So he can chip in, and if he wants to bring it on, I\u2019ll say it to Mr Mitchell, \u201CIf you want to bring it on, Mr Mitchell, I have a lot of information for you, to share with the country.\u201D and we might just do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c30a65a0f3b4d3d8f629c89334179f0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: And now back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213ca3941ed8a467d8fa6d74a6e67bf48\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: So, Mr Mitchell, let\u2019s be clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294f11832af23402687f0836eed4870b4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Now back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238d0f1ee948d45909258fcb49af6e70d\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. We are coming back to the bill and to their questions on digital voting. Mr Mitchell, the previous Cabinet made decisions. Within the short window of time that was left, this Government just continued with that work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENow a lot of reservations have been have been raised around the whole question of digitalisation and it\u2019s pleasing to see that all parties discuss those matters. I mean those of us who do live in the provinces know that out at Pongaroa, Porangahau it\u2019s very hard actually to do anything digital because the last Government\u2019s rural broadband roll-out was so pathetically inept\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and if that member, Mr Bishop, doesn\u2019t believe me, come with me up to Gladstone, which is some 11 minutes from the main street of Carterton and try and use your cellphone. So digital voting for the good folk\u2014the good country folk\u2014of Gladstone is going to be a hell of a challenge, as we found out it was for people to complete their census online thanks to the ineptitude of the last Government when it came to rolling out rural broadband. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve just got to say that this bill quite ably gives the option to those councils. We know where Mr Bishop lives. Everything\u2019s connected. He lives downtown, in amongst suburbia where the high speed broadband has been rolled out by John Key and his Cabinet Ministers for him. So digital voting might well suit Lower Hutt City, it might well suit Wellington City, but it is over to Carterton District, which has voters who live at Flat Point, out at Tora\u2014OK\u2014to choose themselves as to whether digital voting is appropriate, workable, worthwhile. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ESo it is good to see that the learned people on the select committee discussed these matters and, clearly, a majority agreed that if local government is going to go down a path of utilising digital voting, then that\u2019s for them to decide and the legislation gives them that flexibility to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI myself am not convinced. I think one of the biggest issues one faces in voting in local government elections is the big thick booklet that deals with everything\u2014not just about the mayor, not just about the councillors, not just about the community boards, but also about the district health boards, the trusts, and gosh, we all know there\u2019s a plethora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227803c74293e8409ea8582b5040d8b93b\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Are you voting for it or against it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afd1ef499ed04ab0ae25b60c7e6795b7\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I think the thing, Mr Bishop, is giving people the choice: giving them the choice, empowering them to apply a local solution, and recognising that localism has its place as opposed to autocratic decree, which is what that member\u2019s party more often talks about, although it touts itself to be liberal. It touts itself as being liberal, but in actual fact it\u2019s all about autocratic decree and we see that in the way in which they whip the young ones into line over that side of the House and get the ones like Mr Bidois to parrot away to support the young Mr Bishop\u2014the young misguided Mr Bishop. We\u2019ve seen that in such things as the way in which they\u2019ve championed other pieces of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EAccess to information about M\u0101ori descent\u2014I do note that\u2019s obviously a clause, an area where Mr Bridges is going to have a lot of interest. He\u2019s just recently discovered that he\u2019s of M\u0101ori descent, although his comments on Radio New Zealand the other morning did not go down well, so I wonder if he\u2019s still going to be of M\u0101ori descent come tomorrow or next week because that language really was unbecoming him, but there\u2019s access for information there for Mr Bridges, being of M\u0101ori descent, and he\u2019ll be able to take the benefit of that whether or not yesterday he was a M\u0101ori and today he\u2019s not\u2014I\u2019m not quite sure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a very short bill, befitting of shorter speeches. It probably does reflect\u2014although there is a minority report from the National Party expressing some concerns in there\u2014the majority view of the House. I think I\u2019m happy that it does give local government the ability to themselves make decisions around electronic voting and on that basis I\u2019m happy to support the bill. Thank you very much\u2014Mr Bishop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8d429d4e6ed43debe767607d547975c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8d429d4e6ed43debe767607d547975c\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that was a classic example of a New Zealand First speech at 9.45 p.m. at night, because it\u2019s pretty clear that Ron Mark has not read this bill. This bill\u2019s got nothing to do with localism. It\u2019s got nothing to do with empowering local governments to come up with their own solutions\u2014some grandiose phrase. This bill makes very small amendments to the Local Electoral Act and the Electoral Act 1993 to allow a specific ward within a local body to trial internet voting, right? A specific ward, because you can already do online voting, and local government can already do online voting. It was not clear from Mr Mark\u2019s contribution\u2014and I hesitate to use the word contribution because it was more of a sort of stumble through his prepared notes\u2014if he actually supports the bill. The bulk of the speech was about the problems of internet access 11 minutes away from Carterton, where he lives, and about Pongaroa, where he says the rural broadband\u2019s crummy. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1742afa5c4440499c8023413ad78052\u0022\u003EHon Ron Mark\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t even know where it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e3744a01ddb4d00ad309dfba02dc9b4\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I know exactly where Pongaroa is because the local\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214df721c6216493b92f3ff8f0f8aeb1b\u0022\u003EHon Ron Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll see you out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221498fde9a8c5474a94db65c52ea24426\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I know exactly where it is, Ron Mark, because the local cop\u2019s been removed from Pongaroa and not replaced despite the 1,800 extra police and rural cop\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fb3dc73e88e49e4bd244712ad38dc0c\u0022\u003EHon Ron Mark\u003C/span\u003E: We had that under your time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022185f20d9d1264c5b8537c740ff09f1a5\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, Mr Mark. It\u2019s happened in the last 12 months. The locals of Pongaroa are very upset and have asked me to go to their town and run a public meeting about the removal of their local policeman. So I know exactly where Pongaroa is, Ron Mark. You should acquaint yourself with the electorate that you\u2019re trying so inadequately to win.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022249e28a57a6d42918b3376d6ed1028bd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Don\u2019t bring me into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5c32019ab134325a419571528cae45f\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Assistant Speaker. I was just responding to an interjection from a loud noise over the other side of the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not clear that New Zealand First actually supports this bill. Most of the speech was about the problems of doing things online. What does this bill allow? For people to do online voting. But they\u2019re going to vote for it because they\u2019ve become quiescent creatures of the Government. Whatever the Labour Party says they want to do, they will do, like they\u2019re doing with police, like they\u2019re doing with firearms, like they\u2019re doing with everything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe just note the threats made to our former Minister of Defence Mark Mitchell. We note that the actually not so veiled threats from Ron Mark in that contribution to the House. We just note them, and they\u2019ve been filed away. You know at some point, Mr Ron Mark, is going to get his comeuppance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBut for now the House is going to pass this bill. It\u2019s a sensible piece of legislation. We remain sceptical about online voting like Ron Mark is. We remain sceptical about online voting. But it\u2019s a sensible piece of legislation and we support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u00226b6c3e836b034ed2911625462ef8c27c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b6c3e836b034ed2911625462ef8c27c\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I rise to take a short call to support the Local Electoral Matters Bill. The Justice Committee received and considered 27 submissions from interested groups and individuals. We heard oral evidence from 10 submitters. I\u2019d like to take this opportunity to thank our officials, advisers, and more importantly the submitters, especially Blind Citizens of New Zealand, Blind Foundation, and Local Government New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThere are 17 recommended changes, notably clause 5 \u201C\u2026Voting method for elections and polls\u2026\u201D, clause 11 \u201C\u2026Supply of information on age and Maori descent \u2026\u201D, clause 12 to supply an update of birth information, and recommendations 13 and 14 are a contingency mechanism with regard to recasting the vote, voiding, and rerunning all or part of any election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI very much look forward to the committee of the whole House debate. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002243bd93752aab4ccf9e050dba2b12a6a3\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b038af953d4f40ecb3a7667f7a7a79c3\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00223e914fff5a2b40f28855c6185d4df0d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e914fff5a2b40f28855c6185d4df0d7\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the committee to take this bill as a single question for the purpose of the debate, and for the provisions to be voted part by part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022017c5787b76e4cf3b6288cd4284d7692\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought. Is there any objection? So be it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022085beb683ea84b318d82fabe4cc67a0a\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u002291e79e6f5007459ea32aaea68517132c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291e79e6f5007459ea32aaea68517132c\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s deeply rewarding to stand and take what will probably be the only call on this combined debate in the committee stage on the Accident Compensation Amendment Bill, as I presume that you will be reporting progress in five minutes. Just as the debate on the previous bill was uncontroversial\u2014and members who were speaking commented that its provisions were not exactly earth-shattering\u2014I have to say that a similar description really does apply to this Accident Compensation Amendment Bill. However, its great redeeming feature is that this is a bill that originated under the last National Government and so it, again, of course, reflects very sensible and timely amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s good to have the Associate Minister for ACC in the chair and I\u2019m hoping that he will be in a position\u2014obviously, not this evening because of the limited time remaining\u2014to take note of some questions that I would like to put to the committee. While I don\u2019t anticipate that we\u2019ll need to spend a long period of time in this committee stage, nevertheless there are some issues that probably would require some elucidation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EPerhaps, just for the benefit of those who are listening, it should be pointed out that, as I mentioned, we believe that these are sensible changes, so the National Party will continue to support this bill. They had been identified under the tenure of the previous Government and, in fact, the bill was initially drafted at that time. The main changes that are outlined in the bill are to ensure fairness for those who are injured near retirement age, and also to streamline the complaints process to remove some confusion, so the Associate Minister may wish to draw attention to some of those. But because of the very limited scope of the bill, one of the things I would just like to reiterate\u2014it has been mentioned in the previous readings but I think it\u2019s valid to mention it again\u2014is that when members of the public came to make submissions on this bill in the select committee, a fairly common response was for them to be told that while their submissions were worthy, covered issues that were certainly valid, and reflected the concerns of many New Zealanders, nevertheless this was not the bill to address those particular concerns because it is a bill that, essentially, is dealing with technical adjustments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ESo one of the first questions that I\u2019d be grateful if the Associate Minister, or perhaps the Minister when he is here, could answer, really, on behalf of the many New Zealanders who have raised this issue is\u2014it is our understanding that the Minister is working on a more comprehensive package of reforms and a bill that, I understand, he plans to bring to the House to deal with many of the things that submitters wanted to raise but were told they couldn\u2019t. So could I ask the Minister if he could just indicate if that is indeed the case and, if so, if he\u2019s got an idea of the timeframe that that might occur within, and also the scope of the changes that any such reform might bring to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EEssentially, the submissions that were\u2014I don\u2019t think \u201Crejected\u201D is the right word, but the submissions that, we were told, were out of scope were to do with policy, and, as I say, this particular bill is very much dealing with technical adjustments. I\u2019d like, therefore, as I say, for the Minister to indicate if I\u2019m correct in making that observation and if it\u2019s still the Government\u2019s intention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EFurther, since the Government has had a very light legislative programme throughout 2018 and frequently resorted to filibustering during debates on uncontroversial common-sense legislation that was carried over from the previous Parliament and that had been the work of the last National-led Government, I\u2019d also like just to ask when a more substantial update of ACC legislation will be introduced to the House, if that is the case, because, after all, the Labour Party and, I believe, at least one of their Government support parties, did campaign in the 2017 election on this. Their election manifesto for ACC indicated that they believed that there were many areas for improvement; now would be the time for the Government to tell us what those are. It would, obviously, be helpful to know if that\u2019s something that the Minister and his officials are currently advancing in that particular direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very mindful, Madam Chair, that any moment, I think, you\u2019re probably going to stand up and tell me to take a seat. So I\u2019m reluctant to get into another substantial topic in this call, although I hope that I will be in a position to do so next time the committee is under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported progress on the Accident Compensation Amendment Bill, and no progress on the Commerce (Criminalisation of Cartels) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201903124132f425234948dfb03655b96bd24331000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"