"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002237a638b532a74586a4954f97b63f6947\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 6 AUGUST 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b376aca34ef648e0b83cc24509bf87e6\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 6 AUGUST 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e85a671284a149549ad8f2e348652d59\u0022\u003EPRAYERS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022edc4210c6ee74791b8952cee19391a19\u0022\u003EPRAYERS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00229c049c38d07e4b168ac24a354a349d72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c049c38d07e4b168ac24a354a349d72\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: To acknowledge the fact that it\u2019s Cook Islands Language Week, I\u2019ve asked the Hon Poto Williams to recite the prayer today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u002206c8889a56634187ae92a4df4e66b96a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206c8889a56634187ae92a4df4e66b96a\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector): \u003C/span\u003ETe Atua Mana, te akameitaki atu nei matou iakoe no toou takinga meitaki taau i riringi mai ki runga ia matou. Te akaruke nei matou i to matou tu tangata, te akamaara nei matou i te ariki vaine, e te pure nei matou kia arataki koe i ta matou uriuri anga manako, kia rave matou I ta matou angaanga i roto i teia ngutuare na roto i te pakari, te tuatua tika e te akaaka no te meitaki e te au o to matou basileia Niu Tireni. Amene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222663607cf8b84e70b191377756cc869c\u0022\u003EObituaries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e22b490a1fde456f82598e3038258939\u0022\u003EHon William Robson (Rob) Storey\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00223596895f861d4cd88db4740ad3bc5ecf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223596895f861d4cd88db4740ad3bc5ecf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I regret to inform the House of the death on 2 August 2019 of the Hon William Robson (Rob) Storey QSO, who represented the Waikato electorate from 1984 to 1996. He was Minister of Transport, Minister of Statistics, and Minister of Lands from 1990 to 1993, and Minister for the Environment from 1991 to 1993. He also was the chairperson of the Transport Committee from 1993 to 1996.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI desire, on behalf of this House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the late former member. I now ask members to stand with me and observe a period of silence as a mark of respect for his memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMembers stood as a mark of respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c5a86668d92424fa36a5b00d0700c20\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002299b1d14671814158bc9281b79e727d77\u0022\u003EObituaries\u2014Sir Brian Lochore\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u002222d40f64b1624f7c8a1031b76d6c3158\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222d40f64b1624f7c8a1031b76d6c3158\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice to mark the passing of Sir Brian Lochore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca36b0f33f4d43a4a01916bb88d1f04a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225931a53c66314bd586dda15bdc8299ca\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That this House mourn the passing of Sir Brian Lochore, a member of the Order of New Zealand, a Knight Companion of The New Zealand Order of Merit, and an Officer of the Order of the British Empire, and acknowledge his enormous contribution to New Zealand rugby and to the wider community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ESir Brian is one of the most admired figures in New Zealand and world rugby, having achieved fame and respect as a player, captain, and, later, as a coach, manager, and selector. He first became a star lock for Masterton and Wairarapa, and his legacy and commitment to grassroots provincial rugby lives on in the Heartland Championship\u2019s Lochore Cup. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIt was in his 68 games for the All Blacks\u201446 of them as captain\u2014where he cemented his place in international rugby history and folklore. Sir Brian led the All Blacks to a 4-0 home series defeat of the Lions in 1966. Under his leadership the following year, they were undefeated in 24 games on a tour of Great Britain, France, and Canada, including tests against England, Wales, Scotland, and France. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EAmong his many well-deserved honours was becoming an Officer of the Order of the British Empire for services to rugby football on the Queen\u2019s Birthday Honours List 1970, upon his retirement from the All Blacks. Sir Brian\u2019s involvement in our national game did not end with his playing days. He coached Masterton and Wairarapa Bush before guiding the All Blacks to win the inaugural Rugby World Cup in New Zealand in 1987. He was also our campaign manager at the 1995 World Cup and a selector when we won the cup for a second time in 2011.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EHowever, what\u2019s most impressive is how far his reach extended beyond rugby. The many national and community roles he held include former chairman of the Hillary Commission for Sport. He was made a Knight Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit for services to sport and the community on the Queen\u2019s Birthday Honours List in 1999. Many have commented on how, despite his extraordinary achievements, he remained a very humble man who was proud of his farming and rural upbringing. He was also well known for offering a helping hand to many people and community groups in need both on and off the rugby field. He was, fittingly, appointed to the Order of New Zealand, our country\u2019s highest honour, in celebration of the 20th anniversary of the institution of the order, on 6 February 2007. He was the quintessential New Zealand sportsman and he will be dearly missed, and it is fitting that his funeral will be held at his beloved home ground in Masterton on Thursday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ETo Sir Brian\u2019s family\u2014especially to Pam\u2014his friends, his community, we acknowledge your loss and we celebrate the life of a great, great man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd74616170634629a2c5587c98094696\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd74616170634629a2c5587c98094696\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E On Saturday, New Zealand lost one of our most highly respected sporting legends. It was Brian Lochore, who was a valued former All Blacks captain and number eight who played 25 tests in number and another 43 games for a national side, captaining the side in 46 matches of those 68 matches in total, and leading the way through a golden period of All Blacks rugby I know many New Zealanders and their families will have fond memories of watching Sir Brian play and do us proud on the international sporting stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EOn the field he was known for his strategic mind, maintaining combinations throughout competitions. He had the respect of his teammates and was a tremendous motivator. He was a tough man but he was also very fair. He demanded the best from himself and expected others to follow. His proud service to rugby of course, as the Prime Minister has just said, wasn\u2019t limited to the field. After coaching his beloved Wairarapa Bush as they quickly climbed up to the first division within the space of a couple of years of him taking over the reins, he became an All Blacks selector in 1983 and was appointed coach in 1985, guiding his team through one of the most tumultuous periods in the game\u2019s history in New Zealand during his three years in charge but culminating in Rugby World Cup triumph in the inaugural 1987 tournament. In 1995, he was appointed as the squad\u2019s captain and campaign manager for the World Cup in South Africa, and later worked as an adviser at the 2007 tournament in France.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EAs the Prime Minister has noted, his service to our country was recognised in both the knighthood and in 2007 he rightly received our highest honour, the Order of New Zealand. On Saturday, Sir Brian lost his battle with cancer. Losing a great New Zealander like this reminds us that rugby is more than just a game; it\u2019s part of our values and identity as a nation. Sir Brian forged that link between rugby and this nation in so many ways, be it in his work at the grassroots of rugby, his lasting support and contribution to organisations such as the land conservation group, the Queen Elizabeth the Second National Trust, and for his decades of dedicated service in Wairarapa and Masterton. A loss such as this should bring us together to celebrate Sir Brian Lochore\u2019s legacy and be thankful we live in a country that produces such world-class athletes and inspirational legends such as him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022abb14e59db2d40b0af9f26002972c6c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abb14e59db2d40b0af9f26002972c6c7\u0022\u003EMARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koutou. I am so proud and honoured to be able to stand up and mihi to Sir Brian Lochore and all of his family and all of the communities and people whose lives he has touched through being one of the greatest players to wear the All Black jersey. I was asking my wh\u0101nau this morning about particular memories, as a rugby-mad family, that they had of Sir Brian, and my brother reminded me about the first 1987 Rugby World Cup\u2014I think it was hosted by Australia and New Zealand\u2014and then I remembered watching that team. That was when I fell in love with our All Blacks team right back then, and to remember that it was under Sir Brian\u2019s leadership, it is a pleasure to be able to speak on this today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI wanted to spend some time acknowledging him as a kaitiaki, as a conservation leader, going back to his Wairarapa farm; I was really so pleased to look at some of the quotes that he used to have around making sure that the way that he was doing farming was going to protect land in perpetuity for biodiversity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThere was a quote here where he mentioned that he wanted to get in touch with people. He said \u201Cpush them my way when you hear about [farmers] if they\u2019re a bit reluctant to yield up that half acre of Kahikatea\u201D, and he was able to lead and hold discussions on a leading way of being able to farm land, soil, and water to protect our conservation heritage and hold dear everything that New Zealanders are proud of. So I wanted to make sure we acknowledged him not just for his being a rugby great and a giant in rugby but a giant in conservation and a giant in being a kind man that people remember fondly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI leave with acknowledging Pam, their children, and also his eight grandchildren, because I know how special the bond is for mokopuna and grandparents. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225fcd9663d1a24d6eb96d4aecd9925341\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224079823007944bbea5023aa3b7a1c203\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u2014Official Information Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8e19e4988ca44e1959192738495084d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8e19e4988ca44e1959192738495084d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, last week during oral questions, reference was made to an opinion of the Chief Ombudsman on grounds for withholding official information. I want to take this opportunity to remind members that the Official Information Act 1982 does not apply in the House and questions to Ministers should not be treated as requests under that Act. The House has established its own rules for replies to questions and its entitlement to information exceeds that under the Act: Speakers\u2019 rulings 142/1 and 177/6. Ministers are required to give an answer to a parliamentary question if it can be done consistently with the public interest\u2014Standing Order 386(1). It is solely for Ministers to determine the public interest when answering a question\u2014Speakers\u2019 ruling 196/5. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227bae5a6103c346f182ac3ab1881bc156\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002240c01bbe960241ee89d8ae7da0d58043\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5f53c2db0f048778227fad08c8c8d0a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc25f55304294e0b99f46d6f8ff76377\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc25f55304294e0b99f46d6f8ff76377\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (Botany)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What is the latest date he can receive recommendations from the Justice Committee on foreign interference, that he asked it to look at as part of its 2017 general election inquiry, in order for him to introduce any necessary legislation in time for the next general election, and does he intend to do so if the Government adopts any recommendations from the inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd188164e02c408b88a48cdadcb70fa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd188164e02c408b88a48cdadcb70fa3\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, kia orana. For the Electoral Commission to implement changes before the 2020 general election, legislation is required to be passed by Parliament by early next year. The Justice Committee has been significantly delayed in producing its report on the 2017 general election inquiry, in part due to its consideration of the End of Life Choice Bill and other work, and, as such, I have progressed an Electoral Amendment Bill, which makes minor administrative changes which will make it easier to vote. If the committee has recommendations to the Electoral Act that deal with foreign interference and donations, then they will need to work smartly in order for them to be implemented for the 2020 general election. In my meetings in London last week, it was clear that Governments around the world are concerned about interference in electoral and parliamentary processes, and, as such, if members are equally concerned about this issue, I would certainly be happy to work with them to implement any changes necessary before the 2020 general election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b6d9f3e02ec4d24a52980c11d26c4ec\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: When he identified an example of foreign interference in April, overseas donations that were \u201Cdisaggregated and routed through different mechanisms\u201D, was he referring to overseas persons routing overseas donations through New Zealand companies, and, if so, will he take steps to protect New Zealand from that practice before the next election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221230efc74ad6459f9c6a1be4a6f1d5e0\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The reference I made in answer to a question at that time was in relation to a perceived risk or threat that that could be happening, and that had been the subject of public debate, I think, as recently as last year. In my conversations with members in this House, including at least one member opposite, there has been an expressed concern by members about the need to make sure we have a robust electoral donations regime provided for under the Electoral Act, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m looking to the Justice Committee to make sure that through their examination and inquiry into the 2017 general election, we get good advice and, hopefully, any recommendations on a more robust regime for electoral donations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b16240911a7a4bc6b450b938af530f53\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Given a parliamentary majority exists to ban foreign donations, and the Justice Committee\u2019s inquiry has been delayed, will he consider supporting a motion that would instruct the Justice Committee to consider electoral donation law as part of the committee\u2019s consideration of the Electoral Amendment Bill, intended to be referred to the committee later today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022847aa0a00cb343e3b4e274d54c1fe146\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to ask the member to restate his question without the preface, which contains an assertion. So ask the question without the assertion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222773607e27964942a691852651d688da\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: Given he said the Justice Committee has been delayed in its consideration, will he consider supporting a motion to the Justice Committee instructing it to consider electoral donation law as part of its consideration of the Electoral Amendment Bill, which is intended to be referred to that committee later today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022288c220c1aa546978b49446d8d0e2177\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I wrote to the Justice Committee in October last year specifically requesting that they consider the issue of political interference in elections and the issue of donations, and so I\u2019m not quite sure what more a motion would add to it. I understand that member\u2019s concerns, and I share his wish to make sure that our electoral law is robust enough to deal with the growing threat of overseas political interference, including through overseas donations. I would simply urge members on the Justice Committee to bring their work to a close\u2014hopefully, expeditiously\u2014and to bring their recommendations back to the House so that we can all consider them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226861317e4ae34f57a6d873c8e3964276\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022835c271d5e6d4f67b3ca62716f39b4b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022835c271d5e6d4f67b3ca62716f39b4b5\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements, policies, and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00222b677692f79f41eca8beacdc9232e813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b677692f79f41eca8beacdc9232e813\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly the coalition Government\u2019s economic plan, which is delivering more jobs for New Zealanders and a strong underlying economy in the face of global headwinds, as shown by today\u2019s unemployment figures, with Stats New Zealand reporting that the unemployment rate fell to 3.9 percent, I believe\u2014a low that we haven\u2019t seen in roughly a decade\u2014and in the June quarter, wages rose, of course, by 4.4 percent as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244a560fbc89e40788c4f829d1f365b56\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What will the total financial deficits through our district health boards (DHBs) be this financial year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7ad429e7b534e8a8321e8fbb2568e39\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210d5a0524ce64a68b2316008ef63c536\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Doesn\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1c679e6ba8641f8b1e96434adcd4129\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I\u2019m not going to project final deficits\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a8102698eb343bd88e5cb1334dea740\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Doesn\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac99141ec26e472d93aaceac336b3de7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for DHBs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c92e4c3ed7d24e4aa6d2e2f41f2af316\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Who was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6596b926bd74456a578c5861d041f1a\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cb0cc97f62345bdab366a16dd7912bf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member will just zip it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229be3073b1a74493d8f41ab59ca5c514d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: But what I will say, of course, is that we have inherited a health system that has had significant under-investment. No one in this House wants to see, however, DHBs running deficits. We have put in record investment\u2014$2.9 billion in the last Budget, and $1.7 billion in capital investment into health. That is enabling them to make critical investments, of course, in equipment like, for instance, radiation therapy equipment, that hasn\u2019t been replaced in some time over a decade. All of that has been about turning around the state that we found the health system in after a decade of a National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a94e2395a6c45519b9e9c2b1920626b\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is the answer over half a billion dollars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255d7e25b8c8a409ab0944c1045d0738d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I\u2019m not going to forecast the final position of our DHBs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb1d7aef14fc46ee928dcb3b38829fc4\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Why were the figures only released after Michael Woodhouse asked for them, on Friday afternoon, when her health Minister has had them for over six weeks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200b69e99da874a1abd7ff887a3b08aaa\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That would be a question for the Minister of Health. But what I am also happy, again, to remind this House of is no one wants to see our health system in dire straits. We\u2019ve had now, roughly, just going on two years to try and turn around what have been projected issues within the health system since 2013, and it is going to take some time to turn that around. We\u2019ve had record investment under this Government, though, into our DHBs in an effort to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022143f24555119467297a24ee6d7527031\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Was her Government embarrassed by the size of the deficits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce81e282085d444988053e95dd51e87a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That member may wish to be cautious, given we\u2019re having to deal with things like the National Oracle Solution, which cost more than $100 million over seven years and failed to deliver anticipated benefits. We\u2019ve also had to deal with increasing wages, obviously, within the health workforce. We\u2019ve also had to put more workforce into the health system, and we\u2019ve increased nurses. And we\u2019ve also had to try and deal with the fact that in Auckland, Counties Manukau, there was sewage pouring down the walls, no investment in just the basic pipes, and no investment in even the lifts in some of those areas. It is taking considerable investment. We are committed to turning it around and making sure New Zealanders get the health services that they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f95b5c7ed9d24776a02a93720352c54e\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm these are the largest deficits in the history of DHBs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cba5bc0d0f5463896845bd4422702c0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m not in a position to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a9cf3c74f064902a74e7ce6bd4a1f74\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Prime Minister: has she seen this comment? \u201CIts started. Unemployment is up. Is anyone seriously going to debate that this isn\u2019t because of the Ardern Peters [Government] policies?\u201D; and given today\u2019s 3.9 percent announcement, is not the converse true?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022273ca1bf7dc54612ac74a636ced2f081\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct. That appears to be a statement from the Leader of the Opposition, which he may wish to correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c970ed7440b94aeba7aa2a291fecc100\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is the half-a-billion dollar DHBs\u2019 deficit the reason why the Government can\u2019t afford to fund lifesaving cancer drugs or do a national cancer agency, as the Prime Minister has previous promised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f78a334234346dc85a2837601dd5d43\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As we\u2019ve already said, we\u2019ll be announcing our cancer action plan by the end of the month. I do note that it was only four years ago that National wound up Cancer Control New Zealand, which I see they\u2019ve done a U-turn on. Of course, also, Steven Joyce and Bill English panned the idea of a national cancer agency, calling it an unnecessary bureaucracy. I\u2019d say that since we took office, we\u2019ve also increased Pharmac funding and also invested now in replacing half of the radiation therapy equipment in New Zealand, whereas under that Government, they left it up to DHBs, who couldn\u2019t afford it, which meant they weren\u2019t replaced and New Zealanders in the regions did not get the radiation therapy that they needed and deserved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022444c28e115524e3fbacf81823838ce02\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All right. Before we have the next supplementary, I\u2019m going to ask the Hon Dr Smith, the Hon Gerry Brownlee, and Kiritapu Allan to have at least quarter of an hour with no further interjections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c123810a53144287b1d0e48260824ade\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Associate Minister of Health Julie Anne Genter, who said, when releasing sustainability guidelines for DHBs last week, that \u201CThe single biggest risk to our health now is our changing climate,\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a11e6d9f9494e7aa682ebc6f43ceaa5\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, globally you\u2019ll see that there has been a significant move by those who work in health forces to raise the fact that climate change is a concern. That\u2019s been accepted globally, so it\u2019s up to the member whether or not he chooses to follow that trend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b912a9a344143ae984525fac2b60d01\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that it is \u201CThe single biggest risk to our health now\u201D\u2014a changing climate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222627a5c05edc46ef817cfeffa6b66fc1\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member will forgive me for wanting to see the full quote rather than the member\u2019s interpretation of what the Minister has said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea74d438f28f46e98fc10d0911f7031c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Which ranks more highly now as a health risk: climate change or 9,000 people who die a year from cancer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acae3efa0cbf449f8c5b9ba5ef669b7e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: National\u2019s under-investment in our health workforce, our health services, and also making sure that we have the basics to ensure that there isn\u2019t regional variation in people\u2019s treatment are also threats to the wellbeing of New Zealanders, and that\u2019s something we\u2019re working very hard to reverse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022192f1d542fd04f628269bc84b893ea77\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Minister Genter that hospitals shouldn\u2019t serve as much meat and dairy to patients in order to reduce their carbon footprint?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f45543d4471048f1a02b674bb8e8206a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I\u2019m going to want to look at the Minister\u2019s statements directly rather than the member\u2019s interpretation of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e0766713699e4cab97e6503e0b21e583\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3e5911f0ea545b6b840594309a1a9a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3e5911f0ea545b6b840594309a1a9a5\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022bca6b6af41a34190971fd718daff1498\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bca6b6af41a34190971fd718daff1498\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Just this morning, Statistics New Zealand reported that the unemployment rate fell to an 11-year low of 3.9 percent in the June quarter. This is down from 4.2 percent in March, is below the 4.7 percent rate that the coalition Government inherited, and is well below the OECD average of 5.2 percent. Statistics New Zealand also reported today that the number of employed people rose by more than 21,000 in the June quarter. All of this shows the coalition Government\u2019s economic plan is delivering more jobs for New Zealand and shows a strong underlying economy in the face of global headwinds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d341057b89c451fb8c07298e5cba2cb\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What did the data released today say about wages?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224de47d282d7146259f5df7197f25eab5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Statistics New Zealand today reported that the average ordinary-time hourly earnings rose 4.4 percent in the year to June to $32.37. This was the biggest increase since 2009, or, as the Stuff headline says, the biggest pay rise for New Zealanders in 10 years. Statistics New Zealand notes that Government policies like the minimum wage increase for our lowest-paid workers helped boost wages alongside the pay settlements between the Government and workers, such as with nurses. The Government\u2019s economic plan focuses on making sure that everyone shares in our economic success, and today\u2019s figures show that we are delivering a more inclusive economy that raises the living standards of all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229357333f15024f8399e4427f4493dca8\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What did today\u2019s data say about unemployment for young people and M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd801d269efe4e9d81e4dc8a73f08c47\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re continuing to make good progress on M\u0101ori unemployment and in getting our young people into work and training. Today\u2019s report showed the M\u0101ori unemployment rate fell to 7.7 percent in June, down from 9.4 percent last year, the lowest rate since June 2008. Today\u2019s report also showed the NEET rate for 15- to 24-year-olds not in employment, education, or training also fell to 10.3 percent from 13.1 percent. I would like to particularly acknowledge the Minister of Employment, the Hon Willie Jackson, for his drive and management of schemes such as Mana in Mahi and He Poutama Rangatahi. This Government will not be complacent, particularly with a volatile global economic situation, but we are making good progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295634851918c4341b991d8d30ae3f2ec\u0022\u003EHon Iain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: In light of those answers, how does he reconcile the news that wages are up and unemployment is down with assertions from certain commentators that this Government\u2019s approach to collective bargaining and increasing the minimum wage would result in fewer jobs and workers losing their incomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227597ad7263684e71beb8acca93e7db6b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022079810b1d6e542bc931bc548d94ace1f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Taking some real care not to make this out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dc9e20fcb9a42b388cda0e278c0da2a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I would never do that, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227efb987160704167bde935789c48055a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s deviating from veracity with a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd49dc68421f4d138fe9443e6ee81f41\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! What I would say is that in the time I\u2019ve been in this Parliament, I\u2019ve heard many people say that a lift in the minimum wage would somehow or other see a reduction in employment, and the figures today tell the opposite story. We are seeing wages rise, we are seeing employment rise, and we are seeing unemployment go down. It is a good thing to lift the minimum wage, and I\u2019m proud to be part of a Government that has a plan to do just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef7393c66f1941fe9822a9010c9e448e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 4, the Hon Paul Goldsmith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d74e7d330374f7d8c6f9e12a7a39ceb\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c91d409762c46628b974a8ba9010639\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Who did that interjection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f079ffc3f274fc2a3c26d13f61b55e7\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: That was me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a26d99a1e3c04a07bdd69927640ff388\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227952bb812dd54c1ba297aaa015aa9a60\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221adedf56bfa646b2aef915128ec9f7d0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfc21876095a44e897ef8728c03c53b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfc21876095a44e897ef8728c03c53b7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statements, policies, and actions in relation to the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7bcec43198340d19597c1ee9748f740\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7bcec43198340d19597c1ee9748f740\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context that they were made, delivered, and taken. I particularly stand by a statement I\u2019ve just made that the coalition Government\u2019s economic plan is delivering jobs and higher wages for New Zealanders, following today\u2019s unemployment reading of 3.9 percent\u2014an 11-year low.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252e7ce82af5f4b14a082628e0d0065da\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How does he square today\u2019s household labour force survey figures with the 14,000 increase in the number of Kiwis on the jobseeker benefit in the year to June?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ec893c8fc9d4479acc693d11f38d719\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That matter was traversed at some length, and at some frustration of the Speaker, in the House last week. What I would say is that it is only the member opposite who could find something negative about today\u2019s news. This is a story of more people in work. This is a story of lower unemployment. This is a story of higher wages. Today\u2019s the day for the member to find the glass half full.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2c01488349343688e99bd21883d5c4f\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Newsroom columnist today, who said unemployment has fallen \u201Cmostly because more people gave up looking for work.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e725e8ca46b04f5c83559d179ba8b750\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, surprisingly enough, no, I don\u2019t. The people that I would agree with today are those of the likes of the ANZ, who called this solid, the ASB, who said that the results radiate warmth throughout the economy, and the Kiwibank economist who described the results as impressive. I would prefer to take their word on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226209b014714f45ac88f95c87143cc767\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is he already missing Amy Adams\u2019 insightful questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229383fdd3779f479d84f5ce90d1f59cab\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1a54cfce0cb4b38a91a82805f9af449\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Last warning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca6a9e98636f40d9808caf52f6d03f04\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Why are more Kiwis going on the jobseeker benefit when employers are crying out for workers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd774e1cdd174a8eaea033e35ac4dd79\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, this was traversed at length in the House last week. As a percentage, the figure remains relatively steady. On this side of the House, we also want to make sure that people, when they do have entitlements, actually get them, because that\u2019s what our system is about. But what the statistics today show is, in those groups that are really hard to reach, like those young people right around the country\u2014Mr Jones\u2019 nephs and others\u2014we are now making some excellent progress. This is a day to celebrate the fact that there are hard-working people all over New Zealand creating jobs and filling jobs. It is not a day for the \u201CBrothers Grimm\u201D over there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd47b25c6c7f4bae8023135504023e91\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: What changes, if any, has he made to his Government\u2019s economic policies in response to the slowdown in economic growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbe7c7c118aa487a9667e994905e0b9a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: If the member had been paying attention at Budget time, he would\u2019ve seen a lift in operating spending from $2.4 billion per year to $3.8 billion per year. He would\u2019ve seen $10 billion worth of capital expenditure going into building new schools, in hospitals, and improving our roads. On this side of the House, we understand that it is the Government\u2019s role to stimulate the economy in times like this, and, unfortunately, what we\u2019re having to do as part of that is make up for 10 years of under-investment. If the member wants to go back and look at the statistics for investment into infrastructure, for example\u2014capital expenditure\u2014he\u2019ll find times in the 2010s when it barely moved. This Government\u2019s committed to a long-term investment in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b2faed6c258487ab378f0246331446d\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: If more infrastructure spending is an option, will he revisit his Government\u2019s decision to stop or delay around a dozen major road projects that, in several cases, were ready to go, in favour of new projects that won\u2019t be ready to go for years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dd5ff2f5bcd4ae09b16d90987facf8b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We know that on this side of the House, we will be investing more in transport infrastructure over the period of this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a793cb31cf83490ea3d7bb86d650d6e9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: When?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227affebe50c114dd1be4fdd18902483b5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve already started, and we are making sure that that transport infrastructure doesn\u2019t go on a handful of highways, but actually goes across the country on improving regional roads, on significantly making safety improvements, and on improving rail. On that side of the House, there were a lot of promises made about those roads, but they were, well and truly, ghost roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a8b977f195c745c4a5619d9166977ed1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022 data-id=\u0022afc7fa3fb85642bf9bedcb7126a216e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afc7fa3fb85642bf9bedcb7126a216e7\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE (Labour\u2014Rongotai)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What recent announcements has she made about the provision of public housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00220e89ac5b433745f8966077158e72f2e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e89ac5b433745f8966077158e72f2e1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. On Friday, I announced that an extra 2,178 public houses have been delivered over the last 12 months. We exceeded our target of 1,600 additional public houses this year by 578. One of this Government\u2019s first actions upon taking office was to stop the sell-off of State houses. This announcement demonstrates how much progress we\u2019ve made since then, with Housing New Zealand building, on average, four new homes a day. I\u2019m proud of the progress we\u2019re making, and happy to inform members that this represents the biggest increase to public housing in 20 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bbf2951b3914d8da7d8dbfb4a289802\u0022\u003EPaul Eagle\u003C/span\u003E: How did the Government enable the construction and timely delivery of these houses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221586df66b83a400d999cfe970d365a00\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Budget 2018 set aside $234 million to fund the delivery of 6,400 public housing places. That means that under this Government, not only have we stopped the sale of State houses but we have also set aside funding in our first Budget to ensure that the construction and completion of the houses I announced last week was progressed as soon as possible. We\u2019re also partnering with registered community housing providers to ensure we can maximise the delivery of public houses. Of the additional 2,178 houses I announced, those providers delivered 955, and I want to thank those providers who are working alongside the Government to tackle one of the most significant challenges facing New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8345fca3f664140930889a02a2349b5\u0022\u003EPaul Eagle\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it important that the Government continues to invest in public housing provision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c3fbb4f2d034389b9b44c5bf1d93e75\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Because too many people are still struggling to find secure long-term accommodation that will keep them warm and dry. It\u2019s clear from the public house waiting list that a significant gap in supply has opened up over the last decade, and we simply must do more to ensure we\u2019re getting Kiwis into warm, dry homes. That\u2019s why this Government is committed to continuing to build more public houses over the coming years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a850809bcbb1425fae45aa4890faab70\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Health \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002254df3759c6bc421293c52a6b1d78cdb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254df3759c6bc421293c52a6b1d78cdb9\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: On what date did he first read the report he received on 21 June entitled \u201CDHB Sector Financial Performance for the ten month period ended 30 April 2019\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u002250f86642d26c411691546641a5cf514e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250f86642d26c411691546641a5cf514e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. I receive a range of advice on district health board (DHB) performance, including regular updates on financial performance. Those briefings clearly demonstrate the consequences of years of deliberate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aa84d65ae5844ed9f807d43e5e54915\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The member will resume his seat. It\u2019s a very direct question, and talking about other stuff before the member has actually addressed the very direct question is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291db46b72b034c6b912e1ecba5d09570\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of the report the member specifically asks about, I read and signed it out on 1 August, but I was well aware of its contents before that, having discussed the individual circumstances of many DHBs with their chairs directly. I am acutely aware of the challenges that DHBs face in delivering the services that people need\u2014given the history of underfunding, estimated at $2.3 billion by Infometrics research\u2014whilst they at the same time work towards financial sustainability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ec89b6e9e2a48e58682528563e656c0\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Doesn\u2019t he think he should have read that latest document outlining not only the DHBs\u2019 financial performance but the projected full-year financial performance when he had already taken action at Canterbury DHB and Waikato DHB, in part due to their ballooning deficits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227175e1ce046947ff8e18da1ec6b20ff2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I say, I regularly receive reports on the DHBs\u2019 individual circumstances and discuss with the DHB chairs their financial positions. Where we have become concerned that they haven\u2019t mapped out a path to sustainability, we have acted. Over half of the deficits projected belong to just four DHBs, and one of those commissioners was put in place by the previous Government. I have put Crown monitors into the other three. And one of them, where I became concerned that there was no path being mapped out to sustainability, I have moved further and put a commissioner in place. But, first and foremost, I am concerned that New Zealanders get the services they expect and deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022980e82c79f4f413b8d752f388246c927\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Ministry of Health only publish financial information on his direction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229767ff44ad054db68473aee2c9c34aef\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022579302191947419a99bce42152c43d69\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, did the Ministry of Health not publish the information once it had been finalised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d4b734e7c484459885b8460322be255\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: There is a normal process for ensuring that the data is being checked by the Minister and the Minister\u2019s office, which the Minister is familiar with\u2014in this case, the financial wash-ups and the underlying direction. When I became aware that it hadn\u2019t been signed out, I asked for the documentation and signed it out the very same day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c757c02563044afb15a47e1f23a169b\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: So if he directed the ministry to publish the information, is he also saying that he directed the ministry, prior to that, not to publish the information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1d1a16fd74544a4af944c012064d325\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I\u2019m not sure how that follows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261b6618b353b41248e1a6325a35fa637\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just going to\u2014no. It is within the realm of the Minister to say that the assertion\u2019s not correct, because I think there was an assertion in the beginning of the question which was not consistent with the previous answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a04c452f3b44bed919b91d4b7dc3f58\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the assertion that the member makes. I am focused firmly on the performance of our DHBs, acknowledging the significant underfunding that they\u2019ve had. The member will probably not be surprised to learn that we\u2019re also dealing with some other problems we inherited, including the previous Government\u2019s failure to pay out properly under the Holidays Act\u2014employees have not been paid properly for a decade, and we are concerned to provision for that; we will see that the final figure will take that into account\u2014and also the failure of oversight with the implementation of an IT system across the sector, and there\u2019ll be a write-off associated with that as well. The underlying deficit, of course, is projected to be closer to $400 million, but we\u2019ll wait to where the final figures get to, just acknowledging that, of course, we are dealing with those three big issues of underfunding, failure to provision to pay properly the employees, and also the failure of oversight with the IT system that was being implemented under the previous Government\u2019s watch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223daadb7cc3cd4816b224a8d2960ecfa0\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that district health boards\u2019 annual reports are tabled in the House and available to any member who wants to read them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223414cb0faf4439a99ba24a6f2c41c3d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am very happy to confirm that. There is no great conspiracy around this data. It is all made transparent when it\u2019s appropriately finalised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216d4a8b88cc143a9a3b55d35c52bfb15\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: When it comes to DHB financial performance, is he completely disinterested or completely disorganised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1a0393ee7434605a44f4db64b63ee6e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aaf8d092aac4f2db9fe14d64e72c811\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 8, Angie\u2014sorry, Question No. 7, the Hon Louise Upston. That was a Freudian slip, which might have been appropriate, given the interjection that came.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224dae5951a806442a8c695f7ff38f0f2d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Social Development \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3094d225c3d44d9a5301a987ba45c30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3094d225c3d44d9a5301a987ba45c30\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: How many more children are living in benefit-dependent homes as of June 2019 compared to September 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002286ab500b0d344b048025e8c5211fb19c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286ab500b0d344b048025e8c5211fb19c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E As at June 2019, there were 176,630 dependent children of working-age people on main benefit. In September 2017, there were 172,301. The difference is 4,329. I note these figures are publicly available online.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cc9590473fc461d9367312e15cfe899\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What percentage of children living in poverty are in benefit-dependent homes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022139d465fa4504503b65b3a4f969c615e\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: The most recent statistics that we have on that are around 60 percent. Can I say that with regards to those living-in-benefit numbers, we can gain a sense of positivity by the unemployment rate of 3.9 percent today. Also, there are a number of children that are living in hardship in working households, so the increase of 4.4 percent in wages is also a positive indication of what\u2019s happening in the country at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022464167a12ad44b4ab4023046b79d549f\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned about the increase of more than 4,000 children, now totalling more than 176,000 children, living in benefit-dependent homes since September 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022661c4f921b8e457a86c58e7340ca0b63\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: What I am relieved about is that we\u2019ve got a Government that is responding to the needs of children living in beneficiary households. With the repeal of things like section 192, which punished children living in beneficiary households, we will see increases in those particular households. The 24,000 children living in those households will be better off by about $34 per week because of repealing that section 192.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fa6f06c57e841358dc054752eb0f434\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Does she acknowledge that children are better off in households where a parent is working?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1859501f06a4c529cd48ce0019435d4\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: With us\u2014with this Government\u2014we want to work with New Zealanders who come through the welfare system to support them into meaningful and sustainable employment. For some, that means working with them to make sure that they can upskill and train towards the jobs that are available. We\u2019re working very hard to do that. I think we see that with the statistics that came out today, with an additional 20,000 New Zealanders in work over the past quarter. It\u2019s all looking very positive, and we will continue to do that work with families who come through the welfare system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed15f628fdb14619bb35bcf23d2ba81e\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Why are children worse off under her watch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef7cee8f61eb4276a7252b5b99e1af26\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Oh, answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235502cbed0994401b2d6073604e436b5\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the premise of that member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224412af33f62741e796651675f90bb70c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022beadd4142bb24af89f824c1a21621a93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022beadd4142bb24af89f824c1a21621a93\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What recent announcements has he made about improving cancer care in the regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022465eba565cc1490d9d3acf9dc8e45e5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022465eba565cc1490d9d3acf9dc8e45e5a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. More good news: on Sunday, I joined the Prime Minister at Wellington Hospital to announce that the Government will fund the replacement of 12 linear accelerators (LINACs) over the next three years. These machines are used to deliver radiation treatment for a range of cancers, including lung, breast, skin, bowel, and brain cancers. Currently, more than a thousand people a year travel from the Hawke\u2019s Bay, Taranaki, and Northland so that they can receive this treatment. We know that others choose not to travel, and they\u2019re missing out altogether. We don\u2019t think that\u2019s fair and so, as we replace these LINACs, we will be putting one into each of those regions for the first time ever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224663ec8313e643b18ceb442f664ce5cd\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Why is improving regional access to radiation treatment important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a441cd7d9a6141b3a80739480e98366b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: We know that we currently have regional variations in the standard of cancer care. We also know that one in two cancer patients could benefit from radiation treatment, but currently only one in three is accessing these services. There is no question that the cost and convenience of travelling for treatment is a barrier for some people. By putting state-of-the-art LINACs into more regions, we can ensure improved treatment and fairer access to cancer care in the provinces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fff742dc43b443f8bf7d0bf660bf07ea\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: How will these replacement linear accelerators be funded?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6d45cdec3de45438cc02194e397124b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Up until now, district health boards have had to fund the purchase of these vital pieces of equipment themselves. That has forced them to make difficult choices about when to replace their LINACs and has left us with some machines that are up to 16 years old, when they are usually replaced after 10 years. It is just another reflection of the underfunding of health by the previous Government. We are stepping up and we\u2019re stepping in to fund these machines directly from the $1.7 billion we invested in health for capital projects in the Wellbeing Budget, with $25 million set aside for the first five machines in the current financial year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1111fffaa724539984a32b68ef9332b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Justice \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002238db4616d84b4801a2d669cd67e9652c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238db4616d84b4801a2d669cd67e9652c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does he stand by all his actions and statements in respect of electoral and referendum law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd4542ceced049d2873ee8c30c83d24c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd4542ceced049d2873ee8c30c83d24c\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284f9c734eee24d36a95d41004656218d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the statement by Labour during the last Government that the topic and wording of referendum questions are so important that they should be subject to cross-party discussions as well as a bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239c94065309944b2bac39604944ab0bf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! I\u2019m going to interrupt the member and ask him to go back and\u2014in fact, it\u2019s so far out that I\u2019m going to rule the question out and he can start again with a new supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b22fdad6d1f7427db8ecdc2a26c186b4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is the reason Cabinet and not Parliament will determine what referendum questions are held that Cabinet is behind closed doors and secret, whereas Parliament\u2019s processes are open, transparent, and enable full public submissions to be heard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea870a3c19e846e38fcc7697b2dd64c7\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: No. There is full transparency and openness. That member has now spent the best part of the last 10 days under a complete misapprehension about the conventions and rules around referendum setting. So, for example, in the referendum on the flag change process under the previous Government, that question was set by Cabinet, which approved the legislation that went to the select committee. No change was made by the select committee and it was sent back to Parliament. There are two other pieces of legislation that deal with setting referendum questions. The Citizens Initiated Referenda Act provides for the question to be set by the Clerk of the House and the Referenda (Postal Voting) Act of 2000 provides for the referendum question to be set by Cabinet, or at least by Order in Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fde6531fa36645658e1141031ff07e56\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister commit to the same process Labour demanded of the previous Government on the flag referendum, where there were cross-party discussions on both the topic and the questions and a full parliamentary process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a0b5a69be3b4521bde2415ab26af588\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I have already said that the question for the referendum relating to legalisation of cannabis will be a yes/no question. The most substantial part of the question is the draft bill that accompanies it, and I have written to the leader of every party in Parliament inviting them to be part of a cross-party group to determine the content of that legislation. Oddly enough, I have heard public comments from the National Party that they don\u2019t wish to participate in that cross-party group, so I don\u2019t know what they\u2019re complaining about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e609ae0e74da4a5f8d86f0e387c6cd42\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government arguing that a cross-party group discussion on an issue is a substitute for a bill going before Parliament and a full select committee process; if so, why do we bother having a Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240ed9875cd4e48fea8f699272c16b1b9\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Sadly, once again, the member is deeply confused. There is a bill that is currently before Parliament, being debated in its first reading, called the Referendums Framework Bill. It will go through all the stages of Parliament, with total scrutiny by the select committee, committee of the whole House, and any member will be able to speak upon it. Then there is\u2014as part of preparing the referendum question for the question on the legalisation of cannabis\u2014a draft bill that will not go through Parliament, but it will be a draft bill that will be publicised as part of the referendum question. I have invited every leader of each party in this House to provide a member\u2014I\u2019m happy to consider more than one member if it helps\u2014to participate in a process to determine the content of that bill. That is the opportunity for that member and his party to participate in the process of determining the substantial part of the question in the referendum on the legalisation of cannabis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e30f3c46f79a4954b13fba24c55cf5ae\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Will he categorically rule out using his referendums bill\u2019s powers for Cabinet to trigger a poll on abortion at election 2020, as advocated by the Deputy Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d8ba43b29844326990e006001ad5dca\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I have no plans to organise any referendum, other than the one on cannabis that has been mandated by Cabinet. But Cabinet is also aware\u2014and the reason why we\u2019re having the Referendums Framework Bill\u2014that there is a possibility there will be another referendum which will be part of the End of Life Choice Bill. No other referendum has been mandated or contemplated or anticipated by Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208d4cccb82644729ab5381e0be8e1dfa\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was whether the Minister would categorically rule out the proposal put by the Deputy Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022240d3e0df20d4d1e9db62ca68dda14e1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume his seat. He\u2019s been here a very long time and he knows that yes/no answers cannot be required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022705f9c1a059845e1b67e5776f659233c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister \u201Cangry\u201D with the Rt Hon Winston Peters on the question of a referendum on abortion, as stated\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281ed8a1a01384b9282027cb9161fb78a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume his seat when I stand. Question number 10, Chris Bishop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a40ff63bac04b62a08da332c5600434\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022174e92393351467da40a91eebbc042e4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is meant to ask something about ministerial responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224284d237a1ef4286b51fcd415cab0fc5\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I am.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231f0d622f6be4c8fb6fedffc4bbd72b7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He didn\u2019t come close. He\u2019s taking a point of order on my ruling now; unless he can quote me a Speakers\u2019 ruling or a Standing Order, he is trifling with the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9efaf4c0ec548ed8ef1208c2df1e1fa\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can\u2019t do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b0b89b49ccd42ebb04a9755f8c62686\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Transport \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002262ea67c6ba3a459aa72acb173e868562\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262ea67c6ba3a459aa72acb173e868562\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Transport: What were the first three paragraphs, not including salutations, of the letter she wrote on 26 March 2019 to Hon Phil Twyford, Minister of Transport, regarding the Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving indicative package?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002227589860e91b43b7a972054b0f3e3499\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227589860e91b43b7a972054b0f3e3499\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E It is in the public interest for the three parties of Government to be able to have free and frank discussions before decisions are made. This is particularly the case in an MMP Government, where all parties need to be able to\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287fca76e9c9d4d0696bd9691f69af194\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume her seat. As a member from the Hutt Valley, I actually have some interest in the answer to this question, and I would like to be able to hear it. That will require there to be a lot more quiet, especially from that quadrant of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211bfcd9d136f4d6a9b3d1ecadf3577dc\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just wonder if you could ask the Minister to start from the beginning, because I couldn\u2019t hear it either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247ad84ce0d47437aa0d5c546c189d7e2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258c3c56116464c40ab30a3326b2c948a\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: This is particularly the case in an MMP Government, where all parties need to be able to have free discussions in a relationship of trust and confidence, and in a timely manner. Accordingly, and in line with Speaker\u2019s ruling 176/5, I do not consider it in the public interest to provide the member with further detail about the content of a letter that details matters for political consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022007ead90dcb349909b402d21930e1493\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware of the Chief Ombudsman\u2019s investigation, launched this morning, into whether or not the letter should be released; and if the Ombudsman recommends that her letter should be released publicly, will she do so? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2ff873c3b87459f97f581555af42e0d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no, it\u2019s probably not for me to interpret the Ombudsmen Act for the member, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022068705cd5c0540899015978b0742b5dd\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana, Mr Speaker. Yes, to the first part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab78512d78db486f998ee56f1115f5a2\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Was her 26 March 2019 letter to Phil Twyford sent on ministerial letterhead?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235510f948cb1460790928b7ff64298b6\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be aware that while I am Associate Minister of Transport I am also the Green Party spokesperson on transport issues. The letter highlighted the Green Party\u2019s position on aspects of the transport project. As I\u2019ve already stated, I do not consider it in the public interest to provide the member with further detail about the content of a letter that details matters of political consultation, and I\u2019m not going to go through a yes or no answer\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a08413780eb24f51b457bff6df3b8137\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebbacc1da8b34a1d947f37fc670981ca\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to every question the member has about the content of the letter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262d79466230e41b890dfec1155489a2e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All right. Well, unfortunately, because of the noise I couldn\u2019t hear a direct answer to the question. [Interruption] Who interjected then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cbca11c9e5646cca0f223f9fa1d9996\u0022\u003EIan McKelvie\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248c4413bccc749f4b9ff4d56b5ac493e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, well you two can withdraw and apologise too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb82625512114fe9a19cb1e7f204e5c6\u0022\u003EMaureen Pugh\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299902af0aba84c9a859a6c8f1abd4394\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022393bce48fced45a29dd17a043d3bf18e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the three of you can leave the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMaureen Pugh withdrew from the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown withdrew from the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIan McKelvie withdrew from the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225dbd6aabf824bf1bb851f9d36d9b20b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, the point that I was attempting to make is that it is within the rights of the Minister to say that she will not answer a question of this type because it\u2019s not in the public interest. I would have thought that unless there is something extraordinary that we do not currently understand, relating to this letter, the type of letterhead that was used would not get that public interest protection. Having said that, it is the Minister\u2019s decision and not the House\u2019s. So is the Minister saying that it is not in the public interest to tell us what letterhead the letter was written on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022596dbaa6e4bf400ea1a9bfe8f2b8af38\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that the letter was written in my capacity as transport spokesperson for the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280befc32dc7b4730afb191677317297e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m now going to ask the Minister to, once again, actually address the question that was asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1cf16639e7e4daf9da7cb9c5c0410d6\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: And the Speaker believes it\u2019s in the public interest to answer details about letterhead\u2014is that really what the member\u2019s interested in? I\u2019m happy to answer the question. As it happens, I had only one type of letterhead, but that is something I will be changing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cee0713430c459bb0a1ae54064f0945\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that might be a lesson for members to answer questions directly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f50d5d451fd445b2b2d39313505e8037\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she relying on an Ombudsman opinion about Green Party emails to a Minister as justification for not releasing the letter when she wrote the letter to Minister Twyford as an Associate Minister of Transport on ministerial letterhead and has answered written and oral questions about the letter in that capacity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f6b2a9098c0408daf6dcaa5bf293e5d\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: The content of the letter was very much about political consultation, and that is how we are treating the letter from now on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f4ed89f86e1423b9843b8385a029a77\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Hon Phil Twyford advised her not to release the letter to them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223816f22aadc24cedb0a24eb93ddbaaff\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a8ca73aeb09b444a9a2a9197a7ec59ff\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Conservation \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022a89c698d14a64df5a9e40cce5e1bde20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a89c698d14a64df5a9e40cce5e1bde20\u0022\u003EMARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: What recent announcements has she made regarding biodiversity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00229a6e55eb08644b06aa81943ec3730884\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a6e55eb08644b06aa81943ec3730884\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. Thank you. Yesterday, I was pleased to launch Te Koiroa o Te Koiora \u2013 our shared vision for living with nature, a discussion document to encourage a national conversation to help shape a new New Zealand biodiversity strategy for the next 20 years. We have a global biodiversity crisis as serious as the climate crisis, with a million species threatened or at risk of extinction; 4,000 of those species are found here in Aotearoa. We need to turn that crisis around so that nature can thrive for its own sake and for our wellbeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252b7c38c8c6b48a392e48b990268d2c0\u0022\u003EMarama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: What are the goals for the strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e02666d7f044acda068f610ce001394\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: The proposed goals that the public are asked to comment on include that by 2050, Aotearoa New Zealand is free from stoats, possums, and rats; populations are increasing for all threatened native species; and by-catch of seabirds, coral, and marine mammals is reduced to zero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229073b866a97546bfb97394ad25a801d0\u0022\u003EMarama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: What action is needed to achieve these goals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8d5756b9bb54342a9f4c6b88b34714c\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: We need to put nature at the heart of our decisions at central and local government. This requires shifts in thinking and in the way we use nature. Restoring the dawn chorus will require action from all of us: landholders, councils, iwi, hap\u016B, businesses, the Department of Conservation, and the wider community. It requires scaling up the landscape-scale predator control that Budget 2018, with its boost of funding, has enabled the Department of Conservation to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211d71abf11b949478832f09f12f35135\u0022\u003EMarama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: How does Te Koiroa o Te Koiora and the proposed biodiversity strategy implement a Treaty partnership approach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e1c95cd6042499699ef66bac4eb6f4f\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: The proposed set of values is strongly influenced by Te Ao M\u0101ori. The document says that there needs to be better recognition of M\u0101ori as partners in protecting our natural environment. It proposes that partnership between tangata whenua and the Crown should reflect aspirations for co-management, with tangata whenua holding key roles at all levels of the biodiversity system, including governance, and it recognises a need for increased capability and support to enable iwi, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau to play a greater role in managing biodiversity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da6f8c8f74184f22816693ce42c0f00d\u0022\u003EMarama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: What involvement has there been with iwi and hap\u016B in developing the document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b18447b7307d4f3a8b9a6848d15d1d15\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: A Te Ao M\u0101ori reference group has worked closely with officials to ensure that a Te Ao M\u0101ori perspective was embedded in the document and the process. More than 20 regional hui have been held with iwi, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau between November last year and April 2019. These conversations fed into the discussion document, and a further round of hui will be held over the coming months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228622875ec13e40bd962abb0bf926933a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Education \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb15e0eecec14935a9913610ba8214aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb15e0eecec14935a9913610ba8214aa\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does he stand by all his statements, policies, and actions around the Reform of Vocational Education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe9387631b0246d493809771872b0f44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe9387631b0246d493809771872b0f44\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d272aabb3924a33b95468577a7651fc\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Tertiary Education Commission programme business case state that the risk of the new model not achieving desired outcomes is likely?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224945399dc4b34c2f9656ded04be84901\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The business case sets out all of the risks that the officials considered in preparing the business case. It then sets out the inherent risks and then the managed risks, effectively, and what the business case does then is it goes through and identifies how the risks profile changes once the mitigation strategies are put in place. So, for example, the inherent risk of unmet needs of industry moves from being almost certain down to possible, the inherent risk of not achieving outcomes moves from being likely to being unlikely, and the inherent risk of workforce disruption and reduced participation moves from almost certain to likely. That has to be weighed, of course, against the status quo where many of those risks also exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3b99516789540d5a0beac256ca1375d\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Does the programme business case state that there will be, \u201Ca decline in students, apprentices, and trainees (up to a total of around 18,000 learners) as a result of the reform programme\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a472fa0b6fdf461d9e311d8b34a86139\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Business cases, of course, cover all likely scenarios, or as many likely scenarios as can possibly be envisaged. I would point out that participation in vocational education and training has been trending down for about five years since before this Government took office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8241a16d8454046bea1df6c6746edff\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Did Treasury and the Ministry of Education review the regulatory impact assessment and state, \u201Cthe panel does not find the RIA fully convincing\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c927ba2fa4b4ce7804d429b9575f003\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, I think they were involved in writing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022730c24cd75c740bd8c3461047dfaeebf\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Does the programme business case include the base case mergers of Unitec and Manukau Institute of Technology (MIT); Whitireia and WelTec; and NorthTec, Western Institute of Technology at Taranaki (WITT), and Te Tai Poutini?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4bbed783bb9495b995a3036f6b0865f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, can the member repeat the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ed529696d424c83ac542363951c064b\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Does the programme business case include the base case mergers of Unitec and MIT; Whitireia and WelTec; and NorthTec, WITT, and Te Tai Poutini?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022086cf8b1c6d040509fc8ea780c646936\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I think, as I said to the member in one of my earlier answers, the business case canvasses a wide range of possibilities\u2014those being among them. The ultimate one that the Government settled on was the establishment of one institute of skills and technology to cover all of the existing 16 Institutes of Technology and Polytechnics of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec6b5047f62645818735f811f428f99c\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Does the programme business case predict the loss of 2,310 apprentices each year in the short and medium term?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022472b0139ad16429daa52aa7da5c7871c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, the business case canvasses a range of possible scenarios. That is one of the possible scenarios. I point out the fact that we currently are not meeting the skill needs of business already. We have been losing people from vocational education and training for about five years, and we could not guarantee that that wouldn\u2019t continue even if we weren\u2019t making these changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ba0d29ea09d490bb7ec7d7c33382db6\u0022\u003EAppointments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e492a70ff7d345779967231d95ace628\u0022\u003EParliamentary Service Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3cd337b30ca48158e00a2792edb52f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3cd337b30ca48158e00a2792edb52f0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That under section 15(1)(d) of the Parliamentary Service Act 2000, Michael Wood be appointed as a member of the Parliamentary Service Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002285a9bb35db9c4b63a72b3cb3e7bbf18f\u0022\u003EReferendums Framework Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022241c5d58e36547ab918ef98526d76367\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000249\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 1 August.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00225d3377e49b5f431d90391c6bca0f24d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d3377e49b5f431d90391c6bca0f24d7\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand has a proud tradition of being one of the oldest and fairest democracies in the world. It is a democracy founded on the idea that we respect the people and we respect their right to a democratic voice in things. We do not have a written constitution but what we do have are strong conventions that members of this House, of this Parliament, for many years, for generations have respected and our sense of fairness around those conventions reflects our sense of Kiwi values.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWe do not expect that our electoral laws will be the plaything of the Government of the day, because we put our electoral laws on a pedestal. We recognise that they are significant and that they have a bearing on the make-up of this Parliament and the decisions that are made for our country. So it is that a series of conventions have been established around those electoral laws and how they apply in the case of referendums. It has conventionally been the case that the Opposition is consulted on the wording of referendums and is consulted on any changes to electoral laws. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESpecifically, we have always had the case that when referenda are proposed by the Government, they are put forward in a bill and that bill suggests wording, and that wording goes to a select committee and is available for full public scrutiny so that those who are experts on it are able to decide whether or not they think the wording will skew the feedback on that bill or whether they think the wording is appropriate, so that Opposition members can suggest changes to the wording of that referendum so that people who have an interest in it have the ability to influence it. Why is it the case that that has conventionally been what we do with a referendum? It is because we recognise that referenda are politically sensitive and they are constitutionally significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo this bill that we have in front of us is an appalling step away from the conventions of this House as they pertain to a significant issue of electoral law. This referendum bill abuses the Government\u2019s power by overturning convention and, instead, it allows the Government to write the question for a referendum as it sees fit, divorced from public scrutiny and divorced from the processes of this House as they apply to select committees and as they apply through the scrutiny of the Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThis is a shabby bill. It is not fair play. It calls into question the very legitimacy of the referenda, and it is fair for us to suggest that the motivation behind this change in convention is simply political expedience, because if it\u2019s anything more than political expedience, why is it that this bill expires in 2022? Why is it that this is not binding on future parliaments? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIf the process suggested in this bill is such a great process, then why isn\u2019t it the process that will apply into the future? I would suggest to you that the reason it\u2019s not going to apply into the future is that members sitting opposite me know that this is not the way things should happen in this Parliament, because when referenda questions are put forward, members of the public have a right to scrutinise those. But, instead, we have a situation where those on the Government benches are uncomfortable because there are differences of opinion between the Greens and New Zealand First and Labour about how these referenda questions should be put, and they are nervous that if these questions were put to full public scrutiny and if they were put forward to a full select committee process, they would lose control of what is in those questions. I put it to this House that, actually, it is exactly that sort of political expediency that we have worked hard as a Parliament to avoid impinging on these sorts of electorally significant practices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThis referendum bill is an abuse of power. It gives the Government control over what issues and questions will be put at the 2020 election, in a significant break from our constitutional convention and a significant break from the democratic processes that this House has respected\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282de0ee1a9964a169678716f7d8d65bf\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: There is no convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022140d02de689c45ae96f4537ef4287d23\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and if Minister Little thinks it\u2019s so important and it\u2019s such a great piece of law, then why will he not allow the select committee to examine the wording of these questions, as has conventionally been the case? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhy will he not allow members of the Opposition to have a word in it, and why weren\u2019t we consulted on this bill, if it\u2019s such a great piece of law? We weren\u2019t consulted because that member knows that he should be ashamed of himself for manipulating the democratic process in this way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u002221ebc7593f734f8983001685b4ca7b88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221ebc7593f734f8983001685b4ca7b88\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak on behalf of New Zealand First on the Referendums Framework Bill. That was a very impassioned speech. We have had some impassioned contributions from the Opposition, and the words used by Nicola Willis, the member who has just resumed her seat, were \u201Coverturning convention\u201D. I guess what I would say about convention is that if the world doesn\u2019t continue to move on and grow and change, then some of the things that are negative and bad we would carry forward from the 1800s or the 1600s. The world continues to evolve and this Parliament must continue to evolve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons I believe that the Opposition are so incredibly sort of excited about this piece of legislation\u2014which they are being consulted on because it\u2019s a bill inside the House that they are talking on right now. So, literally, they are part of the consultation process on the Referendums Framework Bill. But the next piece that is important\u2014and this is what\u2019s important to New Zealand First\u2014is that for years now, referendum questions have been able to be manipulated. We agree with the Opposition around that particular topic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re hoping for and what we believe that the Referendums Framework Bill delivers to New Zealand is an opportunity for New Zealanders to finally have placed in front of them Cabinet papers and draft pieces of legislation so that they are fully informed before this House decides what this House believes on it. It is so that the New Zealand public can have their say, and that is the situation where New Zealand First is moving to around the referendum on recreational marijuana that has been indicated to be held at the 2020 election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EWhen we talk about the referendum Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that is going to be discussed that has been put in under New Zealand First\u2019s name around the End of Life Choice Bill, that was also to give the New Zealand public all the pieces of information that this Parliament has when it chooses to make a decision. If that SOP is successful, it would not be enacted until the New Zealand public has had an opportunity to scrutinise the bill, and the regulatory impact statement and the submissions that were given to the select committee over the 16 months would be in the public domain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand public would have exactly the same amount of information as this Parliament has had around that particular piece of legislation. They could decide, finally\u2014if that Supplementary Order Paper is successful\u2014at a referendum whether that legislation should be enacted or not. But to do that, this Referendums Framework Bill must go through in the form that it is in, because up until this point we have not had the opportunity to provide the New Zealand public with these pieces of information for them to make that decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EWe know that questions around referenda have previously been manipulated to give a positive or a negative outcome. So from New Zealand First\u2019s perspective, who has\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d97a499d8b4b4afc8cc3f328cd9e7dd3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why not send it to Parliament? Send it to Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d607083ad594c61bf1cdb38c88123e6\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: Parliament cannot be trusted on this issue at times, Mr Smith, and particularly, I would say, the reason why Mr Smith is so adamant that Parliament should set the question is because we know that the Opposition has a view on the medicinal cannabis referendum and does not want the New Zealand public to have the opportunity to discuss that topic. So we have already seen the Opposition in this time extend the End of Life Choice Bill for over 16 months in an attempt to make sure that the New Zealand public cannot get an opportunity to discuss this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EIt is our view\u2014New Zealand First\u2019s view\u2014that what we need to give the New Zealand public is the opportunity for a question where they can decide either on a Cabinet paper and a draft piece of legislation, or on a piece of legislation that this House has decided that they like, but yet it is of such moment that it must be put to the New Zealand public. This is what this Referendums Framework Bill does: it provides us with that opportunity to try something different to actually give the New Zealand public the opportunity to have a dialogue. It gives us the opportunity to try something different to improve the relationship between this Parliament and the New Zealand public. It gives us the opportunity to say to the New Zealand public \u201CWe trust you. If we trusted you enough to elect us here, surely we trust you enough to read the same documents we read, to read the same submissions we read, to read the same regulatory impact statements we read, and to make up your own mind.\u201D And that is why New Zealand First will support the Referendums Framework Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u002296e5bedfdadc49eda59f4b6364ff263c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296e5bedfdadc49eda59f4b6364ff263c\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato): \u003C/span\u003EThank you, Madam Speaker. Our role in this House is to uphold democracy, and I am absolutely amazed and, quite frankly, disgusted to hear the comment from the member that has just taken her seat, Tracey Martin, saying that Parliament can\u2019t be trusted. The Hon Tracey Martin has just told this House that Parliament cannot be trusted to make this decision\u2014but presumably Cabinet can! What a ridiculous statement to make in this House\u2014another Minister now jumping up and down trying to suggest that this is appropriate. This is an absolute outrage and an affront to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EFor over 160 years in our democracy, in the 20-odd referenda that we have had, never\u2014not once\u2014has this happened before. This is disgusting. Every single time Parliament has had the opportunity to be involved in this process, the public has engaged, had their input through select committee, as is proper, and yet again we are seeing another instance of this Government cutting out the public from the parliamentary process\u2014the arrogance of them to assume that they know best and the public should not have a say in what is a fundamental democratic right in this House. This is, quite frankly, an outrage and the Government should be disgusted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022112f2c44221d4e9796a0d75afa6dda19\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: And what a pity it\u2019s not happening. What a pity for that member it\u2019s not happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e65a95e5745440e8b5a753cecacfdcf4\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Members of the defence force have fought for the freedoms that we have in this country, and the Minister scoffs at those members who have fought, and, again, he should be disgusted by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa73c216f6714ae7b4db0f54e0bf1c97\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: The member is talking rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de51b733a27f49debf171a12e76802a4\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps he should have made an effort to actually consider the people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022834d56d7217046ada88fe8e45028bfe0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just\u2014[Interruption] Order! Can I just remind the Minister that I note that he is to speak\u2014he can just calm down and let this member have his opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efdd4ab7f2214687a7129d0f19deade7\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Indeed, the Minister is somewhat caught out by this, it would seem, and is rightly feeling it is just that he has been held to account for a disgusting piece of legislation that\u2019s been put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo, as I\u2019ve said, over 160 years this has never happened, and the Minister tries to say the Regulations Review Committee can sort it out so it\u2019s no problem at all. Well, that\u2019s quite a disingenuous comment, and I\u2019m sure the Minister is well aware of that. Every single referenda that has been before this House has gone through the proper process. Parliament has considered it, the public has considered it, and yet in this particular instance, suddenly, for whatever reason, this Government decides they know best and are going to circumvent that process\u2014as they have already, actually, with a couple of other electoral changes they\u2019ve proposed so far in this parliamentary term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWhere has been the consultation with the Opposition? Any changes to electoral law should be consulted broadly. This is a fundamental tenet of our democracy in this country, and yet the Government sees fit to change it at will\u2014suiting, perhaps, their political agenda. And, of course, I won\u2019t make comment on what that might look like, but to consider, from the public\u2019s perspective, that a Government can just make ad hoc changes to electoral law is surely concerning for the wider public. And indeed, we\u2019ve been hearing that on this side of the House, I know through my offices in the Waikato, people have been expressing significant concern at the ability to just make such wide-ranging changes on fundamental tenets of our democracy without proper consultation, without proper process, and without involving anyone in this House and the wider public through that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWe hear about the Government\u2019s intent for this to be binding referenda. Well, whilst\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022614deea0c3794efa812cca0b2935199c\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279481251c5b8454fb8a508737b5ca4cf\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Great to hear the consent there. Perhaps the member might like to consider what a binding referendum is, because, quite frankly, having three parties on that side of the House just agree in principle that \u201CHey, if we get back in we\u2019ll do this.\u201D\u2014that is not a binding referendum. A binding referendum actually requires this House to pass legislation that will come into effect as the result of a referendum being passed. That\u2019s how a binding referendum works, and for whatever reason this Government\u2019s decided to rewrite that part of our democracy as well. \u201CNo, no, that\u2019s no longer a binding referendum\u201D, the Government says: \u201CA binding referendum is just us agreeing in principle that, \u2018hey, we\u2019ll get on and do this\u2019 \u201D\u2014whatever it might be. Although, actually, the question might change somewhat from what was agreed in the referendum because \u201CPerhaps we\u2019ll do a select committee process afterwards.\u201D\u2014unless, of course, the Government\u2019s not going to listen to anyone in that select committee process, which wouldn\u2019t, quite frankly, be surprising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve also heard from actually just going back to Minister Martin\u2019s comment as well, about how we need to evolve and adapt so that we can remove bad processes\u2014for the Minister to be suggesting that electoral\u2014effectively, constitutional\u2014changes like this is bad process is, quite frankly, outrageous, and to me shows just how disconnected this Government is and how little regard they have for the processes of this place and for the wider public in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWhen we come here, we have huge obligations and responsibilities to those members of our constituencies that have elected us or, for those who are list MPs, to the wider voting public who have supported their particular party. That is a massive obligation and responsibility. To come here and just tweak as necessary, as the Government is doing with these changes, is an outrage for members of the public, and, quite frankly, I am surprised the media is not making more of this as well, and that we\u2019ve not seen a much more significant beat up as a result of this. I\u2019m sure that once the public becomes aware of it, that will indeed happen, because the public expects transparency. They expect openness, and this Government has committed to those two facets in particular, claiming to be the most transparent and open Government, and yet we\u2019re not seeing it. Time after time, bills coming before this House are having a shortened report back or are being pushed through under urgency and not going to select committees at all. For those that are, the shortened report back doesn\u2019t allow the full capacity for the public to engage in that parliamentary process, to have their say in what are quite often very important matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, look, certainly there are some aspects that can be put through in a speedier and more succinct process, and we\u2019ve supported those where it\u2019s appropriate, but those should be rare and they should be for more minor aspects that do not have fundamental changes that would require wider consultation. It would be, quite frankly, arrogant of us in this House to assume we know better than the public on any issue, whatever the bill may be. That is a major part of why we go to select committee: to enable the public to engage, to allow experts to come in to share their understanding on integral facets of what we\u2019re proposing with a particular piece of legislation. That is critical. We can\u2019t know everything here. The public have the right to be involved in any of these considerations, and in particular in areas such as electoral law changes. We\u2019ve seen many times now where this has happened by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EI just reiterate: this process that\u2019s being proposed under this particular bill has never, never happened in the history of the New Zealand Parliament\u2014the Referendums Framework Bill, first reading, looking to allow Cabinet to make the decision on what the wording of a referendum will be. Quite frankly, that is an outrage, as I\u2019ve said. It\u2019s never happened before\u201420 referendums over 160-odd years of our Parliament, it\u2019s never happened. In the UK, the same Westminster system: 380-odd years and not once have they done this sort of process. Surely the Government can look at that and realise they are well out of line, well out of touch with how the democratic process should work, how legislation such as this should be brought before the House, and the opportunity the public should have to engage, to be part of the democratic process. We\u2019ve heard the Speaker, many times over this parliamentary term, looking to outline his concerns around the lack of engagement with the public. Well, how are the public to engage, to get involved with the parliamentary process, when they are not given the opportunity on such a fundamental part of what is critical for running this Parliament, and that is electoral law changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen time and again that the public\u2019s scrutiny is absolutely critical to not only giving confidence to the public but ensuring that any amendments can indeed be included, to ensure that we end up with the right piece of legislation before this House, and then going on to be enacted into law. So to suggest that Cabinet can simply make that decision is quite frankly outrageous, especially when we consider that, in reality, having a referendum at election time will always have some political impact. If the public are getting confused by questions, or indeed the particular question has an appeal to a particular audience, that can well result in changes. That just reinforces the need to have broad discussion on these sorts of areas. So, quite frankly, we will continue to oppose this. This is terrible process and a terrible affront to our democracy. This House deserves better, New Zealand deserves better, and we will fight this every step of the way. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d17493dae5a1411592caaaf4fcd7cf0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d17493dae5a1411592caaaf4fcd7cf0c\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I know that member, Tim van de Molen, is reasonably new to the House, but he really has to work on his high dudgeon, because that actually wasn\u2019t that convincing\u2014and for a very good reason, I think. I think that member, unlike the member to his right who has been here for 29 years, probably understands how the public feels about these sorts of issues, and probably he, like many members of the public, remembers the process for the flag referendum bill, or the New Zealand Flag Referendums Act that came about eventually. So to the extent that members opposite\u2014the member who has just resumed his seat, and the honourable member Nicola Willis\u2014talk about a convention about referendums, to the extent that the Hon Dr Nick Smith talks about conventions about referendums, let\u2019s just be very clear: there is none. There is no convention about referendums.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIf there was a convention about referendums\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d17cbcaff43e4850a6a65834175ba3bf\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek leave of the House to table the Oxford Dictionary definition of \u201Cconvention\u201D, which says a convention is something that has been always done in a particular way, which is absolutely relevant to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a99d2441d704d44b79ca180ff99479c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, first of all, the Oxford Dictionary is widely available. Second of all, the member is interrupting the Minister\u2019s speech. I\u2019m not going to put the leave, and I call the Hon Andrew Little to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022335807ae4d8b4c009bb6afe87fd8bbf6\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. So if there was this convention, if it was that every referendum must go through the process that the members opposite talk about, why is it that in the legislation for the citizens initiated referendums, actually, the question is set by the Clerk of the House? Why is it that this House passed legislation in 2000 for postal referenda called the Referenda (Postal Voting) Act? Why is it in that piece of legislation that setting the question is a matter for Cabinet, to be done by Order in Council? There\u2019s the convention, set right there. Now, it is correct also that for some pieces of legislation whose commencement has been dependent on a referendum, the legislation has both provided for the substance as well as for a referendum question, but that is not the end of the matter. The reality is that there is no convention about this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s go back to what I started by talking about\u2014the New Zealand Flag Referendums Act, as it became\u2014because that was an interesting process. The question for that referendum\u2014or questions, as it turned out, because there were two referendums\u2014was set by Cabinet, because the legislation had to be approved by it. Cabinet set the question, and then the legislation came to the House for its first reading and it went to the select committee. Now, one of the overwhelming points that was the subject of submissions and a 30,000 - signature petition was people wanted to change the order of the questions. Members of the Opposition who were on that special committee said that they wanted the order of the questions changed so that the only question in the first referendum was \u201CDo you want to change the flag?\u201D, but that wasn\u2019t what happened, and because Cabinet had already mandated what the question would be, that committee did not change the question, and when it came back to the House, the question did not change. The question as determined by Cabinet did not change. There\u2019s your convention\u2014there\u2019s your convention, Dr Smith. There\u2019s your convention, Mr van de Molen. There\u2019s your convention, Ms Willis. There is no convention. There are different ways of doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, there is a good reason why this bill is setting up the referendum question, or possibly more than one referendum question, for the 2020 general election. We know there will be at least one referendum question that will be about the legalisation of cannabis, because that\u2019s the subject of agreement in the confidence and supply agreement between the Labour Party and the Green Party, and it necessarily locks in New Zealand First because we all support each other\u2019s agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere may be a second question on the End of Life Choice Bill, because a New Zealand First member has foreshadowed that she is going to put up a Supplementary Order Paper providing for that bill, if it passes its third reading, to have its commencement following a referendum that shows majority support. That is a possibility at this stage. We just don\u2019t know because we don\u2019t know how the process is going to unfold. So we needed a set of mechanics or a mechanism to be put in place to deal with any and all referendum questions. We know there will be at least one; there could possibly be two. At one point, we thought there might be three because there was talk about making some electoral law changes too, but in the end there wasn\u2019t support for that so that didn\u2019t proceed, but what we have is a bill that provides a temporary arrangement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, the other argument I\u2019ve heard articulated today by Ms Willis was if this was so good, why isn\u2019t it a permanent piece of legislation? I am totally sympathetic to that point, and I think we actually do need a standing piece of legislation that provides the mechanics for all future referendums. In fact, what I said to Ministry of Justice officials when we were putting this together was, \u201CLook, let\u2019s do what we need to do to deal with the exigencies of the 2020 general election, but let\u2019s then follow that with a standard piece of legislation dealing with all referendums of the future.\u201D But in order to do that, it\u2019s a complex piece of work, because we then have to dust off the Citizens Initiated Referenda Act; we have to dust off the Referenda (Postal Voting) Act 2000 and every other piece of legislation that deals with it; have a good, thorough, proper examination of all the potential ways that we can conduct referendums and set the question; and let\u2019s have a piece of legislation to deal with that. But with little more than a year to go before the next general election, we actually need a piece of legislation to deal with this, and because the Justice Committee has been so overloaded, burdened with work\u2014not helped by some members who deliberately slow things down\u2014we\u2019ve got to the point where we actually just have to move on. In fact, the reason why we need this is the Electoral Commission needs absolute certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, the way that the question will be put in relation to the legalisation of cannabis is that there will be extensive consultation. Well, actually, we\u2019re reliant on the advice of the Electoral Commission. They are the experts in this area. We know that there are a set of conditions and principles that apply in relation to referendum questions. They have to be understandable\u2014people need to understand what the question is\u2014and they have to be impartial as to the outcome, so no leading questions should be allowed. So we need to make sure the question meets all those sorts of criteria. The reality is, because of the way we are approaching that particular topic, the topic of legalisation of cannabis, the question will relate to a draft piece of legislation that has not been through the House. That is why I have invited every party in this House to be represented on a cross-party group to have input into the development of that legislation and, therefore, an input into the question to be asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, it doesn\u2019t suit Dr Nick Smith, because he wants to contrive this constitutional crisis because he\u2019s got nothing else to do. He\u2019s that irrelevant to this Parliament. He is that irrelevant to this Parliament, he gets off on constitutional crises. Well, the great thing is\u2014and wait till the next piece of legislation\u2014we\u2019ve got more. We\u2019ve got more reasons for Dr Nick Smith to enter into his high dudgeon\u2014because it is very entertaining to be outraged by more contrived, fake constitutional outrages. There will be more, and I don\u2019t want to disappoint Dr Nick Smith. It\u2019s very important that we get to see him at his best, and I do want him to know that there will be other pieces of legislation, possibly Supplementary Order Papers, that will cause him great excitement. He might want to prepare for that\u2014you know, bring a change of clothes, or whatever. Whatever it takes\u2014whatever it takes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut this legislation is very specific. It is targeted to the need to conduct the referendums, of which we know there will be at least one and possibly there will be others as well alongside the 2020 general election. As I said before, specifically in relation to cannabis, we took advice on a number of approaches. I know that Dr Smith said in his speech that the Government was advised that there\u2019s only one approach\u2014that is incorrect. Once again, Dr Smith gets it wrong because it suits his purposes. There wasn\u2019t advice about one approach; there was advice on four approaches to take in conducting a referendum, and we\u2019ve taken one that meets the needs, that allows us to have a draft piece of legislation in front of the public of New Zealand. The reality is no one can tell which way this is going to go. I would say it\u2019s roughly 50/50 at the moment, and people are thinking very hard about what it would mean if we move away from the status quo to a whole new regime. People want to know how you\u2019re going to provide the mitigations, what the regime would look like, and what the framework would look like if we were to legalise cannabis. We need to be prepared. This House needs to be prepared for a \u201Cyes\u201D answer. So we\u2019ll have a draft piece of legislation that gives us an answer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut the upshot is this: this bill, the Referendums Framework Bill, is about this House respecting and honouring the voting public of New Zealand. It\u2019s an opportunity for every member of this House, including those opposite who\u2019ve spoken in opposition to this bill, to actually say, \u201CYou know what? It\u2019s in our best interests to hand over the privilege and the opportunity to the voting members of the public to exercise their decision on this question about legalisation of cannabis, and we will work together to make this the best possible mechanical arrangement for the conduct of referendums, and we will work together on the cross-party group to make sure that what we put before the public is in the best state it can be.\u201D So I look forward to members taking up that invitation to be part of that process. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002268cdb9965865454c9ff5dcda190676cc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Referendums Framework Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000300\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba297b6c3fdd40f8b1b7c42ab125e1a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba297b6c3fdd40f8b1b7c42ab125e1a4\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Referendums Framework Bill be reported to the House by 11 November 2019 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day in which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 191, 193, and 194(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe reason for this is that it is important that the Electoral Commission, as part of its preparations for the 2020 general election, has certainty. It is therefore important that this piece of legislation be passed, to the greatest extent possible, by early 2020 so that the Electoral Commission can do their planning and get that all arranged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe motion that I\u2019ve just moved allows the committee great flexibility when to meet, but also to meet outside of Wellington. It\u2019ll be interesting to see how much interest there is in the Referendums Framework Bill. I think most people entrust members of this House to get the mechanical provisions of these sorts of things right. There will be some input from those with an academic interest in getting things like the conduct of referendums correct. I think most academics will agree that because there is no convention, and no single way that referendums can be conducted, that we do want to take the opportunity to get this right. So this motion allows a good amount of time to receive submissions, to hear submissions, to hear from experts, to hear from members of the public, and then to get the framework bill right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAs I foreshadowed in my speech on the first reading, what I am very keen for, once this legislation is passed and we\u2019ve got through the referendums to which it will apply, is to consider what we need for a standing piece of legislation on the conduct of referendums, because we have multiple pieces of legislation. We\u2019ve had multiple ways of conducting these in the past, and I think it would be good, for the purposes of consistency and for our democracy and the values that we represent, to make sure that there is one set of rules that we apply so everybody knows that when the issue of a referendum comes up, whether it\u2019s the citizens initiated referendum, whether it\u2019s a Government-sponsored referendum, whether it\u2019s a referendum that comes out of a motion of the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cff809e50e8b499c8c5eb0effe3628f7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019ll just remind the Minister that this is a very narrow debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022994c06dcae5c44e0b8626271ad8a250d\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. So it\u2019s about making sure that when, in considering this bill, the committee gets to hear all of those questions as a set up, perhaps, to what might happen in the future. But for the purposes of the Referendums Framework Bill, it\u2019s important the committee has the flexibility and the time to do a thoroughgoing job, given that we and the Electoral Commission need the certainty for planning of the election and the referendums that go with it for 2020. So on that basis, I invite the House to support the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00229942001e1de04ad4b88be02e6aa7e693\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229942001e1de04ad4b88be02e6aa7e693\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is moving this motion to reduce the capacity for the public, and the Parliament, to scrutinise the very significant constitutional change that is proposed in this bill. The issue of referenda is one of the most important issues, as is the way in which we conduct elections. Now, the public will not be so much interested in the provisions of this bill as it relates to applying the Electoral Act to referendum. What they really want to have a say in is are we going to have a referendum on cannabis, are we going to have a referendum on euthanasia, are we\u2014as the Deputy Prime Minister said today\u2014going to have a referendum on abortion. The tragedy of this bill, of which New Zealanders deserve a proper say, is whether the decision on those referenda\u2014both the topics, and the questions\u2014is made by Parliament, or whether it\u2019s made by Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, shifting of that power, and the public\u2019s right to have a full select committee process for the transfer of such a significant power, is something that should not be slammed through the Parliament. Now, the issue that has got the Government into a jam is the referendum promised on recreational cannabis use. Now, it\u2019s difficult for the Government to justify a shortened select committee process on this bill when, in fact, the promise to provide that referendum was agreed over 20 months ago. The Government could\u2019ve introduced a bill any time in the last 20 months of which to provide for the referendum on cannabis, and now it\u2019s got the audacity to say to Parliament, \u201CYou can\u2019t have a full select committee process on this constitutionally significant bill, because we\u2019re running out of time to meet our promise\u201D. What the Minister has provided no explanation of is what they\u2019ve been doing for 20 months. Why is it that Parliament\u2019s processes, the select committee process, and the opportunity for the public to have a say have to be constrained because of the internal wrangling between New Zealand First, Labour, and the Greens, who are at opposite ends on the cannabis referendum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI was horrified to hear the words from a Minister of the Government, \u201CYou cannot trust the Parliament\u201D. Isn\u2019t it extraordinary that the Minister of Internal Affairs, the New Zealand First Minister, said, \u201CYou cannot trust the Parliament to make the decision on referendum\u201D. Isn\u2019t it symptomatic that the Government is going to shorten the select committee process, and treat Parliament like just a rubber stamp for the dodgy dealings of this Government by reducing the opportunity for the public to have a say on such a significant bill. The Minister claims it\u2019s not significant, there\u2019s not a convention. Well, let me state it again for the record, because it is absolutely true, in every referendum that\u2019s been held at a general election in the 166 years of this parliamentary democracy, the topic and the question has been decided by Parliament, not the Cabinet. What the Government is wanting to do, by transferring the wording and the topic to the Cabinet, is one specific thing: lock out of the process the public, and lock out of the process the largest party in this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s not try and gild the lily about what\u2019s taking place here. What they\u2019re saying is that they want to avoid a proper select committee process to transfer the power on the decisions about referendum from Parliament to Cabinet. But here\u2019s what makes it even more dodgy: only for the 2020 election. Just for this lot that\u2019s in Government at the moment. We know that when they were in Opposition, they had exactly the opposite view. That is, on the flag referendum, on the MMP referendum, on the number of MPs in Parliament referendum, on the referendum that\u2019d been held on alcohol and all sorts of other issues, the full question and bill has gone through the Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo we cannot minimise the significance of this bill. It cuts that out of the process for Parliament. It means Parliament has no say. The Cabinet can decide to have referendums on any issue they like, such as abortion that has been promoted by the Deputy Prime Minister. That might be a good step, I say, to members opposite, but put the question and the process through the Parliament, as has occurred for 166 years. It is unacceptable that the Government is wanting to fast track the passage of this bill. It is the Government, again, playing fast and loose around issues of electoral law. I ask members opposite to reflect on the mother of all Parliaments that\u2019s been around for 380 years. Have they ever had, in Britain, in the UK\u2014they\u2019ve never had a referendum in 380 years that\u2019s been determined by the Cabinet. Every one of their referendums\u2014both the wording, and the topic\u2014has been determined by the Parliament. Such is the significance of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo my question for the next Government speaker is this: why isn\u2019t the public able to have a full select committee process on this bill? Why are members opposite, who stood in this Parliament\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275c7ad67dae646199763f5830da4a4f0\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you\u2019re a proxy for the public\u2014you\u2019re a proxy for the public. You can sit on the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022497ebd39eb684acba25b6bf956007c65\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Jones interjects. I\u2019ve got a simple question for Mr Jones: why did New Zealand First argue for a full six-month process on the New Zealand Flag Referendums Bill but not on this one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218efb14f89f7404aa6193f4e872d8f0b\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca759962f6f4448aa28c301c0f512a82\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member says, \u201CSelect committee process\u201D. I would love any member of the Government to answer this question: why did they argue so strongly for a robust select committee process, including a full six months, on the New Zealand Flag Referendums Bill, which the National Government provided? Why is it a different approach when it comes to cannabis? The silence is deafening. Can any Government member please explain to me why New Zealand First, why Labour, and why the Greens vigorously argued on the flag referendum that there had to be a full select committee process of six months, that it was hugely significant, that it needed to be properly debated, and, now the table has turned and they are on the Government benches, suddenly they\u2019ve changed their mind. Can any member opposite please explain why you\u2019ve changed your mind? Do they somehow believe that cannabis or euthanasia or abortion is a less important issue than what New Zealand\u2019s flag is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sorry; the issue of euthanasia is a life and death issue literally. So I argue again to members opposite\u2014and Louisa Wall looks to answer my question\u2014why has the Government changed its position of a full six-month select committee process on the flag referendum bill, on the MMP bill, on the referendum we had on MMP? In fact, on every previous referendum we\u2019ve had, there has been a full process, but when they are the Government, we get speeches\u2014disgraceful speeches\u2014like the Minister of Internal Affairs saying Parliament can\u2019t be trusted. Does Labour agree with the New Zealand First position that Parliament cannot be trusted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIsn\u2019t it interesting? Are any of the members prepared to indicate that they support the statement by Tracey Martin that Parliament\u2014this institution that was fought for in some of the names of places on the wall\u2014that democracy, which is one of the most important things for this country, that they agree with a Minister of the Crown saying that Parliament cannot be trusted? I challenge members opposite to reflect on the way in which they are playing fast and loose with our democracy, that they respect a full select committee process on this bill, that it is a very significant issue when we\u2019re being asked to give a blank cheque to Cabinet to decide whatever referendum it wants to hold at the next election and to have whatever wording it likes. That\u2019s what this bill does, and, in our view, that should require a proper and full select committee process, where the people who have got views on euthanasia, on abortion, on cannabis, or any other issue\u2014this bill will have a profound effect on the referendum to be held next year, and I simply ask again: can a member of the Government say why six months was the proper period for the flag referendum but on a bill that gives a blank cheque they want a shorter period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8b3bf9f6f814686854515a4bd6a818c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8b3bf9f6f814686854515a4bd6a818c\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The challenge that was just laid down before this Parliament by the Hon Dr Smith was whether somebody on this side of the Government benches could answer the question as to why there was a need to refer this bill by this time frame, 11 November, and the answer is rather simple. The answer is rather simple because, on this side of the House, we are trying to do God\u2019s work and fix up the mess that the Opposition left us. There can be no greater call for democracy than what this bill before us asks. It\u2019s a mechanical issue. This bill sets a framework by which we can legitimately go through a process. The speaker just prior, Hon Dr Nick Smith, waxed lyrical in a wide range of areas\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244e5333d4a7c4ca4a14228b848deba5c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. [Interruption] I call the member to order. The member did not. The member related it all the time back to the motion before this House, which is the shortened period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5322335bf944c35a1befa7688f10ddb\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: The motion before this House is the shortened period, and so that is something that\u2014our side of the House is trying to say that there are no mechanics by which to legitimately provide a carte blanche mechanism by which to set referenda. So the member opposite has laid a challenge as to why it is necessary that we provide some time frames to enable this bill to go before the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022484e093e2fb846b3a3e1c0efc9a87b83\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Sit down. Let me make it very clear: the question of the bill that has been debated at the first reading is all about the mechanism. The debate we\u2019re in now is very focused on the shortened time frame. So the speeches have to relate to that, not to the bill and the structure that\u2019s being put before the House, but to the shortened time frame. OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fc46c00c34f4488b67e143a9a7bcc8b\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. The shortened time frame is a consequence of the fact that we don\u2019t have a mechanism by which to provide a referendum. What we are trying to do, on this side of the House, is provide the machinery through which we can actually hold these referenda, and why the time frame is shortened is to enable all members who are enabled to vote, who are enabled to participate in our democracy, the opportunity to do so at the earliest opportunity. I\u2019m not quite sure why the member opposite is confused as to why we are trying to make this law go through this process in an expeditious way, because the only reason I could think of is that the member on the select committee over there perhaps wants to flout his expertise in this area as opposed to giving the good people of New Zealand the opportunity to actually cast their vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ENow, there are a range of issues by which this side of the House believes it is important to enable the general public to participate in referenda. We want to make sure, on this side of the House, that there is the opportunity for as many people to be able to participate at the earliest opportunity. Therefore the time frames that we have proposed are 11 November. Also, in order to ensure that anybody can participate in a way that they might not ordinarily be able to\u2014because usually select committees are required to be held down here in Wellington\u2014the referral motion asks that those sitting in that particular select committee can hear from people whenever, whether that be in the evenings, or whether that be outside of the Wellington area. The reason that we\u2019ve asked for the broadening of this particular referral motion is to alleviate some of the member opposite\u2019s concerns. We want to ensure that as many people are heard within the appropriate time frames, and those that are really committed to ensuring that they can have the opportunity to participate in having their voice heard on the Referendums Framework Bill will have the opportunity to be heard wherever the select committee chooses to set itself down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe select committee has the ability, if this referral motion is agreed to by this House, to go out and actually meet with those key constituents, those people that want to be heard, and that\u2019s something that the honourable Minister Little has diligently tried to do\u2014enable a referral motion for that member\u2019s select committee to go out, to listen to the voices of the people, and to do that in the most liberal kind of way. We are seeking that the particular Standing Orders\u2014191, 193, and 194(1)(b) and (c)\u2014are deferred in this instance, are set aside, to ensure that as many people can participate as is proper, and rightly so. And the reason for that is simple: it\u2019s because we want to ensure that the mechanics that sit behind developing referenda are robust, they are thorough, and they are done in a way that is expeditious, so that we can truly enable all members to validly cast their votes at the earliest opportunity on some of the major issues that our community has to face. So, speaking on behalf of this side of the House, we commend this referral motion to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00221131e294133a4174ab19a8740a31e030\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221131e294133a4174ab19a8740a31e030\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Well, what a breathless dish of contradictions that contribution was. I cannot believe that the junior Government whip, Kiritapu Allan, has just tried to articulate something so ludicrous that I\u2019m sure any member of the public who\u2019s listening to this debate at the moment will not have had any difficulty in seeing the blatant contradiction in. That contradiction was summed up in her claim that we need to shorten the period allowed for this select committee process in order to improve the opportunity for the people to participate in our democracy. That, Madam Speaker\u2014and soon, it would appear to be, Mr Speaker\u2014is absolute nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI listened very carefully to the contribution of the Hon Dr Nick Smith, who preceded her, and he put some very good questions to members of the Government benches. I noticed that their heads all went down. I noticed that they ignored most of the questions, but when he asked one Government member to explain why a referendum on euthanasia or a referendum on the legalisation of marijuana or perhaps, as it would appear to be emerging, a referendum on the future of our abortion laws\u2014why all of those very important issues are less important than a flag referendum. We all participated\u2014those of us who were here\u2014with some passion in the flag referendum debate at the time, but surely those issues that Dr Smith has asked about are ones that require considerably more consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThis is, as the junior Government whip said, a debate about a referral motion. Well, let me remind her that we\u2019re talking about referrals to a select committee, because it\u2019s a select committee that gives the public of New Zealand their most active opportunity to participate in the process. Of course they take an interest\u2014or at least a large number of them do\u2014in our proceedings as parliamentarians, but it is when a bill passes its first reading and is referred to a select committee that they have an opportunity to focus on the issues raised in the bill and to put their own thoughts together. Many of them choose not only to put in written submissions\u2014as I\u2019m sure many will\u2014but also to ask for their right to be heard. In truncating this process, this Parliament is curtailing the right of New Zealand people to be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWhen Minister Little moved this motion, he said that it was important for the committee to hear all opinions. Well, I point to him the extraordinary inherent contradiction in his claim. It is absolutely ironic to say that \u201CWe\u2019re going to do this in order to enable the people of New Zealand to be heard.\u201D and then \u201CWe will truncate the process.\u201D That is an affront to our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EMinister Little also expressed the opinion that he doubted that there would be much public interest in this issue. Well, of course, that is a matter that remains to be tested when, and if, this bill passes its first reading and is referred to a select committee. We have to assume it will pass its first reading because members of the three Government parties have indicated their support for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EBut I want to point out to Minister Little that whether there are 50 submissions on this bill or 5,000 matters little. The principle is that it is an absolute travesty to be doing this at all. The members of Parliament have a duty to uphold our democracy in every way we can, and one of the most important ways that we do that is to protect our very, very important constitutional safeguards that are built into our electoral laws. For the Minister of Justice, of all people, to be moving that we should in some way curtail those constitutional responsibilities, which we all have as members of Parliament and which members of the public also have a deeply vested interest in, is extraordinary and, I would suggest, obnoxious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThis is a vile bill. Of course there will be a level of public interest in it therefore, and I say to the Government they must allow the public the standard period. We\u2019re not asking for anything extra. We\u2019re not asking for anything that goes beyond what members of the public are used to. We\u2019re simply asking for members of the public to have the opportunity that they would always rightfully expect to be able to make a submission on something of such significant constitutional interest as this particular measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EAs has already been noted, this is a measure from a Government which appears to hold to the view that the Parliament can\u2019t be trusted. Well, there can\u2019t be many more obvious ways of showing that they all hold to that appalling view that was expressed earlier this afternoon by the Hon Tracey Martin than collectively to deny the public the right to participate in a fully democratic process in considering this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EMinister Little made several false claims in his speech when he was moving this truncated select committee process, and those false claims were to do with precedents and conventions. The Hon Dr Nick Smith attempted to point out to him what the meaning of the word \u201Cconvention\u201D was, because it was clear that Minister Little simply didn\u2019t understand. But, when a senior Minister in a Government gets that wrong, how can he possibly be trusted to get this process right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI would suggest to you that there shouldn\u2019t be, and there isn\u2019t, any need for this particular process. If the Government was organised, we would have known some time ago the referendum question on cannabis and we would probably know by now if we were going to be having more than one referendum. It seems likely, as others have mentioned, that we will be having one on the End of Life Choice Bill, and it has been indicated\u2014not officially, but certainly hinted at\u2014today by the Deputy Prime Minister that we will also be having one on abortion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EAs I said a few moments ago, those are all incredibly important matters. Members of public today have been receiving a huge number of emails from people concerned about the abortion question, and there was considerable media\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9fd7a9b57714d039d5928c9f895e410\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Relevance, relevance, relevance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e376a91bdacd43fba8f12ff9b7ae94a1\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely relevant, Mr Jones, to be talking about matters that may be considered by a referendum under this legislation. If that Minister can\u2019t see the relevance of that, he shouldn\u2019t be sitting over on that side of the House\u2014he shouldn\u2019t be sitting in this House at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThis is a deeply flawed measure, and this truncated referral process is an insult to New Zealanders, particularly on a day when they are showing such concern for matters that might be considered under this particular bill that we\u2019re being asked to send to a select committee for a truncated process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI urge the Minister to think again. I urge the members opposite, who have had their heads down while Opposition members have been speaking, to think again. I ask them to look within their consciences to whether they really feel comfortable suppressing democracy\u2014suppressing the right of the public to have their say. We have members of the Justice Committee, including the new chair of the committee, in the House today. Is she going to support this terrible travesty? Is she going to turn around to her constituents and say, \u201CI was happy to vote for a measure that curtailed your right to have a say on a really important issue.\u201D? She\u2019s not saying so at the moment. No member is saying so at the moment. I take it therefore that the implicit answer to my question is that they understand the point that I\u2019m making and they agree with me but they just don\u2019t want to say so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWell, we will in a few moments be voting on this measure. I hope that at least a few of the members opposite will cross the floor because they will say it\u2019s more important to uphold our constitutional conventions, our enshrined electoral rights, than it is simply to go along with a measure that suits the convenience of the Government of the day at the expense of the rights of the people of New Zealand. Make no mistake: that is exactly what we are facing right here. The rights of the people of New Zealand are being trampled on by this Government, and all members opposite should be ashamed of themselves for doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b686139b536a4c679f904e4c3064ac91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b686139b536a4c679f904e4c3064ac91\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E I want to remind listeners that my senior colleague the Minister of Justice has simply identified the best way for the select committee to use its time. This referral motion\u2014attacked by opposite members of the House, introducing us to the mother tongue of double speak with a higher level of volume\u2014need look no further than page 71, 290, in terms of the bible of the House. It has never been an unusual event for either the period of time to be sharpened or the use of time to be made more efficient in terms of a select committee. Numerous are the occasions when select committees have been under time pressures for them to use that time very efficiently. That\u2019s all the Minister, my senior colleague to my right, has put before the House. Now, Standing Order 290 enables a four- to six-month period. The motion then goes on and directs our attention to page 45 of the Standing Orders, and follows a very well-trodden path, a very constitutionally defensible practice in this House, that other than when we are sitting in question time, members on this select committee can utilise other occasions and other opportunities to hear from the New Zealand public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, let\u2019s just trace the moral authority that the Hon Andrew Little is exhibiting today. In 2017 we hosted, in New Zealand, the general election. This side of the House won enough votes to hold the benches of Treasury. Therein lies the ethical and moral authority, under the constitution, for this side of the House to bring this bill forward. Any suggestion that the stance of the Minister of Justice lacks some constitutionally legitimate platform is utter poppycock. Go back to who enjoyed the electoral mandate, who got most of the votes, and then trace back to where we sit today. We have the mandate, the moral, constitutionally sanctioned authority to lead the country. And in leading the country, what we have done is bring forward a bill but, in particular, this motion, which enjoins fellow parliamentarians to use efficiently the time available\u2014something that has been practised by former regimes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI direct the members on the other side of the House to page 45 and I direct them to page 71, and these are well-known and highly respected principles that enable Parliament to discharge its business, to effect an outcome that was agreed to because of an election. There\u2019s no greater moral chain of thinking in a political sense than what I\u2019ve articulated. So let me come back to why it\u2019s important that this particular motion be agreed to, because we do want to ensure that New Zealanders have the opportunity to vote in the upcoming referendum, as explicated by the Minister of Justice. Now, no piece of legislation or no particular Act of the Parliament is static, incapable of being improved, depending on the vicissitudes of the time, and we live in a time where New Zealanders do want to make a call about how far the law should continue to regulate the utilisation, the consumption, of certain drugs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, whether the other side of the House find that offensive, I totally accept their ability to exercise that vote of conscience. But in order for their conscience vote, shared by other New Zealanders, to come to pass, we need the machinery which requires an endorsement by Parliament, and that is why we are cleaving to what the Minister has put on the Table. This motion should pass. This motion represents no threat, no offence to the established constitutional principles of our Westminster democracy. This is simply a continuation of what former regimes have done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, there seems to be all of a sudden a constitutional attack on the role of select committees by the other side of the House. This motion of referral upholds the role of a select committee. Irrespective of how dreary you might find your time on a select committee, the House devolves authority down to select committees and they operate depending on the bylaws, to speak figuratively\u2014the Standing Orders, in this document I\u2019m holding. So to suggest that because a select committee, as a consequence of this referral motion, ought not to be meeting, and I quote, \u201Cin an area outside of Wellington or in an area some place within New Zealand\u201D\u2014it\u2019s absolute petulance. It is time wasting and it undermines the ability of the Government to deliver on its electorally mandated outcome. Against that, the Opposition had their chance to eclipse that mandate. They failed because they failed to muster the numbers to get enough power in this House to pass legislation. That privilege fell to this side of the House and it is power that we will exercise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s come back to the merits of what the Hon Dr Nick Smith and others are saying. They\u2019re saying that by truncating the periods of time, the locations of sitting, somehow we are undermining established practice. That is wrong. There are numerous occasions\u2014for fear of straying off what\u2019s really a narrow writ here, for fear of straying off too far\u2014where the House exercises enough authority over its own affairs, and this particular issue requires the House to delegate down to the select committee for a period of time that this is how it will operate. It will operate in such a way that it will bring back machinery enabling us to host a referendum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, they may say that referendum lacks legitimacy. Win the next election! You lost. You have no legitimacy over the power that was bestowed on this side of the House. Use your role in this select committee to be an effective Opposition. You had that chance. The ultimate sanction of power is winning power amongst New Zealanders. You failed to do that. You failed to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022448e6282f0384732a8bb976af1079c7b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Power corrupts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022526c125dc43e49298e2b68bcf705008a\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Now, I think I actually think that what\u2014and he\u2019s a trained lawyer, unlike the Hon Dr Nick Smith. Dr Smith, he is a trained lawyer and all he\u2019s doing is enjoining our fellow parliamentarians to follow the Standing Orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, the Standing Orders give certain rights to that side of the House. But if they want the rights of democratic leadership, then first they have to win the hearts and minds of New Zealand. The hearts and minds of New Zealand will be on display when they have a chance to vote yay or nay in terms of what ought to be the regulatory framework enabling people to use this type of drug. I\u2019m not here to talk about the substance of the issue, but to remind us that this is a very simple procedure. It\u2019s a procedure that is totally based on long-established constitutional principles but, most importantly, it enjoys the ultimate sanction and that is the authority of this side of the House to represent New Zealand\u2014something bestowed upon us by an election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, our colleagues on the other side of the House will have an opportunity to run that race again, when this referendum, which the Hon Andrew Little has brought to our attention, is also conducted. So any suggestion that somehow today is a bleak and dismal day for parliamentary democracy is not only an exaggeration; it\u2019s a very sad reflection on how shallow the other side\u2019s understanding is of our constitution, and it\u2019s a very trite and a very banal set of arguments. This referral motion upholds democracy and is couched on the constitutional fact that we won and you lost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00228de5c070a9d64de882ab74f52a020a8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228de5c070a9d64de882ab74f52a020a8c\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E For the benefit of that member, who was able to use many, many words where one or two would suffice, let me make it very clear that the reason we are having this debate is because yet again that Government is making the rules up, as it goes along, to suit itself. And in this particular case, the Government is calling for a shortened select committee process because it does not want to be open to the usual public scrutiny that a full select committee process would give to this bill. We on this side of the House say that in this matter relating to such a core issue of our electoral law, relating to the conduct of referenda, this is an appalling misuse of parliamentary process, because these are the very issues that require a full parliamentary process, a full select committee process, the full six-month process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EBut, of course, the member asks why it is that we are here and talks about the power of Parliament. Well, the very intent of the bill that we are looking at is to remove some of the power of Parliament. Parliament has historically been able to write the questions for referenda; to have bills which put those questions forward; to have the wording of those questions debated in select committee; to allow members of the public to share their wisdom, their views, their ideas on those questions and how they should be properly put. But, instead, what this bill does is it says, \u201CNo, no. We are the Labour - Greens - New Zealand First coalition. We don\u2019t need to hear what the public think about the question because we know better than the public. We believe that we should have the right by Order in Council to set the question as we see fit. To, by fiat, decide what the question should be, never mind that the framing of that question has such a\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291eef510658843a3a0babb9691fcce3b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just encourage the member to speak to the motion, not to the bill. We\u2019re debating a shortened report-back period, not the actual bill, and the member\u2019s actually debating the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4b85f109559439087179aac3e81b73a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I listened very carefully to the previous contribution from Mr Shane Jones. He veered significantly from the specific issues around the time frame of the select committee and the exemptions from particular Standing Orders. I just ask that we take a consistent approach with other contributions to this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251d490e2354b4b46b4d16bfb7fdee137\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: My ruling on that is that I\u2019m the sole judge of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f85fe65117342b69468d6cafed65b1f\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The reason we are having this debate is because the Government wants to ram this bill through a select committee process that has been shortened. We, on this side of the House, have views on why it is that it wants to ram that through, and there is much speculation that could happen as to why it wants to ram it through. We would argue that the public should, more than ever, have the right and the ability to scrutinise what this bill does and how it differs from the conventional process for referenda. We argue that a shortened process will curtail the ability of members of the public to have their say on this matter. That is unacceptable, because these are issues of great democratic intent. These are issues that go to the very heart of our electoral system and require full scrutiny through a full select committee process. It\u2019s actually telling that here we have a Government who are prepared to do what they need to do to satisfy the demands of their coalition partners, ahead of allowing the public to have their say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWe had, earlier, Minister Little speaking about why this referral motion was being put forward. We had him, in his earlier speech on this bill, talking about the fact that this would allow for full scrutiny. Well, how can it be that full scrutiny will occur when members opposite are, at the same time, calling for a shortened process? What is it that is actually driving that need for a shortened process? What I would argue is that the reason Government members are wanting a shortened process is that, in fact, they do not want to open this up to the full and proper scrutiny that it deserves. They are embarrassed about what they are doing and they do not wish the public to have their usual rights of scrutiny, and to have the usual time required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had the excuse offered up that things are all getting a bit tight, in terms of when the next election will be and when the referenda are to be held. Well, I would argue that it shouldn\u2019t be Parliament\u2019s punishment that we don\u2019t get the time for a proper select committee process simply because Ministers opposite were taking too long over coalition negotiations. Why should Parliament lose its right to scrutiny? Why, in fact, should New Zealanders? Why should members of the public lose their right to full scrutiny because Ministers on the other side have dilly-dallied, have taken their time, have spent too long in negotiations and not enough time opening things up for public scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c806978a7dfb45328ebf8eb382f43aa5\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I direct you to invite the person on her feet to acquaint herself with the necessary Standing Orders; they have absolutely nothing to do with the creation of the coalition Government or that period of negotiations. The Standing Orders are very explicit\u2014a period \u201Cbetween four and six months\u201D. If it is not within that period of time, and this probably looks like it\u2019s between three and three and a half, then there is the ability to eclipse Standing Orders 191, 192, 193. The member needs to stop prattling on about the coalition Government formation, because it\u2019s irrelevant and it\u2019s against the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fa85423ffcb4dc3b9b1c1c67086e8fb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235adc63ddb5c46aab57611004fd53982\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t need any help, thank you. As I mentioned in the earlier ruling, the member needs to debate the issue of the shortened report-back time and she has ventured off into other areas. Can I say, also, the debate\u2019s getting quite repetitive. But I\u2019m going to go back to Nicola Willis and, hopefully, we\u2019ll get back on track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022474802fcddda474a92ad82fdd8d412b6\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The reason we are having this debate is because the Government has asked for a shortened report-back time for this bill. They have not offered sufficient reasoning or argument for that shortened period. There has been no sufficient explanation of why it is that the public should have their usual rights of submission reduced, and so members on this side of the House are invited to speculate as to what the reason could be. So that is why I find myself asking if this is because we have a coalition Government that have taken too long to introduce the bill to the House and, therefore, we and Parliament have a shortened report-back time at the select committee? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EMembers opposite could have introduced this bill months ago. They chose not to, and the select committee will now pay the price with only three or three and a half months to scrutinise this, rather than the usual four to six. Mr Speaker, you know and we know that it does have a material impact. Those of us who have sat on select committees and gone through the submission process know that when it comes to matters like this there are those\u2014potentially, those from an academic viewpoint, those who understand the constitutional significance of these issues, those with subject matter interest or expertise\u2014who wish to take time to submit their views, to submit them in length, to make sure that they are thoughtful and considered, and who then wish to be before the committee and to make those make those views known in person. The minute we shorten that process it has a very real bearing on the ability of people to submit; on the ability of people to put those submissions together; the ability of them to come forward before the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo we are debating this motion because we think, on this matter, of all matters\u2014given its constitutional significance, given its bearing on electoral law, given its bearing on democratic principles\u2014there should be a full select committee process that allows for full scrutiny. So this is an abuse of parliamentary process. This is shortening the scrutiny of a bill that deserves more scrutiny than most, and we oppose this referral motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00228bcea0ef00644a02ae8bab411b83d2d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bcea0ef00644a02ae8bab411b83d2d5\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thanks for the opportunity of responding to the referral motion that there should be a shortened report-back time to three, three and a half months on this important bill, regarding referendums going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI would just like to point out to members that this still enables the Justice Committee to do a thorough and full job of hearing submissions on this particular issue. I would also like for members to draw their mind back to the previous Government, where we saw bill after bill go through this House without a regulatory impact statement, without a Bill of Rights\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cf0922931a3422dac81dac3bfd36257\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re not debating that. The member needs to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200dbd10d30f74800b8ba63984ce1997a\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: So when we talk about democracy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220456a527a4c445dc82541c1fc9334734\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member needs to come to the motion, not anything else from previous Governments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298654b7e3a00404d8fdd7c7e99d45f52\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: So when the select committee considers this, it is important to note that after that New Zealanders also get the opportunity to vote at the general election. So not only is there an opportunity during the shortened select committee period for submissions to be considered thoroughly but after that all New Zealanders who are of voting age and able to get the opportunity to vote on these issues again. It is an awesome opportunity when there is such great attention from media, from discussion, from\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3891e1d04b44ae09eb33ecdd885dc1c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: No, again, that\u2019s not actually what we\u2019re debating. We\u2019re debating the shortened report-back time, not the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299b847ba19b441b4ad2ef8fa52911092\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: So by having a shortened report-back period, we believe strongly that it will not compromise the scrutiny and ability of this House to do its job properly. In fact, in terms of it being unconstitutional, those considerations have not actually been delivered. That argument has been changed by the Opposition from once being considered to be unconstitutional\u2014that debate has now changed to it being a convention. So it is important to note that there is a full and able opportunity for New Zealanders to have their voices heard on this issue by being able to come forward and either write, or be heard in person at select committee, and then, once again, to have that fulsome opportunity at the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhat we need to also note is that the issues that have been raised in this debate by the members opposite have not demonstrated how a reduced select committee consideration period would actually impede the good process and the scrutiny of this bill going forward. I have not heard a valid argument to be able to demonstrate how it would be unconstitutional or against, in any way, good process to have a shortened period in which members of the general public are able to submit on this legislation. It will still go through the exact same process of being publicly notified on the parliamentary website, of having full opportunity and notification of anybody who wishes to, to come forward and submit, and it will have the full attention of all members in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo, I stand in support of a shortened select committee period because I do not see in any way by the arguments raised today that a shortened select committee period would impede upon democracy and good process occurring within this House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00226a1e3a89cfb0488cac986e20616cd624\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a1e3a89cfb0488cac986e20616cd624\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, sir, for the opportunity to speak on the referral motion to the select committee in relation to the Referendums Framework Bill. In response to some points made by Mr Jones, I want to start by noting that his characterisation of an efficient use of the select committee\u2019s time\u2014he\u2019s referring to the determination made by Minister Little along that line\u2014surely it is for the select committee itself to determine the best use of its own time. That is indeed what its constitutional role is: to act independent of the executive to the extent that the select committee is a creature of Parliament. As such, it\u2019s absolutely crucial, from a constitutional point of view, that it maintain that separation, it maintain that independence, and to be allowed to do its work unmolested by the dictates of the Minister of the day in relation to a particular decision or a set of decisions that that Minister\u2014you know, reasonably in one context\u2014might make for political reasons along with his Cabinet colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo we then ask ourselves: is the amount of time that the select committee is going to have to consider this particular bill appropriate? We\u2019ll have less time\u2014half as much time, in fact. So the question then becomes: is it appropriate that these matters be accorded less time? Surely that\u2019s only the case if the matters themselves are less important. If anything, the opposite is true: the matters that will be subject to deliberation ultimately under this bill, bearing in mind that referenda questions will not need to come back to this House\u2014obviously, the answer is yes. These are, if anything, more important matters: matters of life and death, matters of drug policy, and whatever one\u2019s views on that, we must surely agree that it\u2019s important to allow the select committee enough time to understand how these things will relate to the matter\u2014no small matter\u2014of the general election of 2020. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMr Jones spoke about, effectively, a winner-takes-all philosophy, whereby that side of the House, having won the election, enjoys a mandate to run the country. Of course, that is true as far as it goes, but that doesn\u2019t change the fact that it\u2019s constitutionally inappropriate for the executive to be directing Parliament\u2014in this case, a particular select committee\u2014to operate in a particular way that is extraordinary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFurther to that point regarding a mandate from the 2017 election that Mr Jones claims, that would have a lot more weight if it were true that all the parties that now form Government had, in fact, campaigned on all these matters. New Zealand First didn\u2019t campaign on several matters that now appear set to go to a referendum. So it is rather rich for him to claim a mandate, in the context of seeking to truncate a process, on the basis that they\u2019ve already got the authority from the good people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s that three-stage process: not only the election\u2014electing members of the House of Parliament by the people in New Zealand\u2014but the selection of the Government by the leader of New Zealand First and then the collection of policies that have gone into that. It\u2019s relevant to note, absolutely, that in none of these was the New Zealand First position, which now seems to be maintained as a matter of electoral mandate, ever exposed to the New Zealand people for an airing. I dare say that many would-be voters of New Zealand First would perhaps have thought differently about the way they cast their vote, thereby changing the mandate claimed by Mr Jones if they had known what was planned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy next point is, again, essentially one of rebuttal. We\u2019ve heard from the Government side of the House that it\u2019s appropriate to have a lesser time of scrutiny by the select committee for this bill because it\u2019s simply important to establish some machinery for referenda\u2014as though that were impossible for the House itself to come to. I don\u2019t need to belabour the point that we\u2019ve previously made about the fact that, on every single occasion previously, it has been this House that has done exactly that. For particular referenda questions, it has done exactly that, and so the departure from convention\u2014the breech of convention, indeed\u2014is unnecessary and is therefore contributing to the general sense of arrogance and ignorance that has characterised the speeches we\u2019ve heard opposite today on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAllow me to make a couple of final points. I don\u2019t need to take my full 10 minutes. In relation, again, to the comments of Mr Jones, he speaks as though political parties are the centre of the democratic universe. Well, in fact, it\u2019s the people of New Zealand who are the centre of that particular universe, and it is we, their representatives in the House as a whole\u2014not, of course, the National Party beyond the percentage that we gained in the election, which I acknowledge, obviously enough for the record, was not a majority in itself. But the fact that we are hearing, in effect, something along the lines of: \u201CWe won. You lost.\u201D\u2014and I note, by the way, that\u2019s not necessarily a direct quote, but it wasn\u2019t far off. The notion that we\u2019ve heard from Mr Jones is that it\u2019s a matter of political parties winning or losing\u2014effectively, on another level from whether the people of New Zealand should lose out by having their select committee of their Parliament having a full and proper chance to speak on these matters. That\u2019s really the point, in terms of democratic mandate, that Mr Jones misses, whether deliberately or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFinally\u2014and again, I say I don\u2019t need to take my 10 minutes on this because the debate has been raising a lot of these issues very clearly from various colleagues of mine\u2014the shortened process, due to tightness of time frames ahead of the 2020 election, should not be an excuse or reason for truncating the process in this way. It was always the case that there was going to be an election in 2020. It was always the case that 2020 was going to follow 2019. It was always the case that 2019 was going to follow 2018, and if that seems like too obvious a point, it seems to have been lost on the other side, who failed to anticipate the ticking of the clock, the turning of the pages of history. The calendar turning over in an entirely predictable way seems to have passed them by until suddenly, now, they need to act and in an unseemly rush. Whether that\u2019s due to accident or design, I wouldn\u2019t like to say, but the people in New Zealand can have their view, whether it\u2019s cock-up or conspiracy. But, in any case, it\u2019s pretty untidy to say the least. It\u2019s a hopeless way to conduct the process of this House and, therefore, our democracy. So for that reason, along with others on the side of the House, I\u2019m very strongly opposing this motion to refer the bill to select committee for a much-truncated period of time than would otherwise be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228be57f9d4d174035807fb8f2fe467651\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228be57f9d4d174035807fb8f2fe467651\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m glad that enlightened member opposite, Chris Penk, knows that 2017 comes before 2018, and 2018 comes before 2019. He may know that day becomes before night. On this side we are in daylight; on that side\u2014it would appear\u2014eternal gloom. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBut could I please come right back to the motion, because I have been a little confused by some of the arguments made across the road. What the motion actually says\u2014and if I can, it does something that we\u2019d all really love to be able to do. In our lives we are all so time-poor; what this motion does is creates time. Now, those sitting at home will be a little concerned. They\u2019ll be thinking, \u201CMy gosh, this means that somehow we\u2019re going to be rushing people through here, that they won\u2019t get their time, they won\u2019t get the opportunity.\u201D Actually, if I can go back to the actual motion, it says that the House can now sit \u201Cduring any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThey are things that do not normally occur. So anyone listening at home that is concerned that somehow their opportunity to give evidence on this bill, to come and speak with us, will be somehow lost, actually, no. What this incredibly insightful motion by the Minister of Justice does do is that it enables us to create\u2014not actual time\u2014not time but debating time. It actually enables us to create time\u2014extra time\u2014where those members who are watching will be actually enabled to have more time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EJust to let those who are listening know: what normally happens is that select committees only ever sit for about three hours on a Wednesday and on a Thursday. Now, if you\u2019re like me, a member who is on the Justice Committee, the extremely hard-working Justice Committee that actually last year sat 75 percent of the time of all committees\u2014but I\u2019m not here to show off or skite; I\u2019m just here to say I worked 75 percent harder than people who were on other committees last year, but that\u2019s neither here nor there. Just to add to that, I was also on the Social Services and Community Committee, which also was the second-highest sitting committee. So I\u2019m not standing here saying that I\u2019m holding this place together myself; that may be for others to surmise from that irrefutable evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EHowever, what it is\u2014and the point I\u2019m trying to make to those at home is, \u201CDon\u2019t worry. If you want to come and make a submission on the bill, the time available to you to do so actually is likely to be greater than otherwise.\u201D So to those there who choose to be in the dark\u2014and again, I reiterate that day does follow night, so be optimistic\u2014actually the opportunities will be there. It may even help if I actually go to those Standing Orders that have been set aside to enable this to happen. Standing Order 191 \u201CExcept by leave of the committee, a select committee may not meet on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting at the House.\u201D Well, now we can sit on a Friday. We\u2019ve created a day. We\u2019ve created a Friday. It\u2019s like\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284027c6e3e8248c3ba2676b0c2f566b6\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Thank God it\u2019s Friday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3685f1223c64b408c7a7180b8fdffb1\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s TGIF\u2014I think there was a whole range of bars: \u201CThank God it\u2019s Friday.\u201D Well, so those who wish to submit on this bill will now be able to say, \u201CThank God it\u2019s Friday.\u201D because now they\u2019ll be able to come and submit on a Friday, whereas before Standing Order 191 prevented them from doing just that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBut it gets better, because we go to Standing Order 193. It\u2019s even better because normally select committees sit in Wellington. I don\u2019t know\u2014Wellington, I\u2019m rather fond of the place: the \u014Ch\u0101riu electorate is the best electorate in New Zealand, if not the world, but certainly in New Zealand, so I\u2019m proud to be here. But I\u2019ll admit sometimes the weather\u2019s not\u2014sometimes the airport is a little closed, sometimes it\u2019s a little bit difficult to get here. So what this motion does is it actually enables the committee to go to where the people are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u201COh, no.\u201D you might say, \u201CWe demand they come here under the Standing Orders.\u201D But no, again we\u2019re not only creating time we\u2019re creating places. Mr Smith, we could go to Nelson, a wonderful place, and I\u2019d hope that if we do decide to sit in Nelson\u2014I\u2019m going to put my hand up to come to Nelson. As you will know, I have great family ties to Nelson: people who arrived there in the 1840s. I\u2019m proud to call myself half-Nelsonian, half - West Coast. So if we create that time, if we create that space, I put my hand up to come to Nelson and be part of the select committee. Again, those sitting at home, if you are in Nelson listening, you don\u2019t have to get\u2014and someone\u2019s complaining it\u2019s a $500 return fare to Wellington for Air New Zealand. Mr Smith can probably confirm that if you turn up at the airport to buy a return ticket. That\u2019s a long way to come but we\u2019ll come to you because Standing Order 193 allows us to do it, which is an important part of this motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBut it gets even better. Those who are sitting at home excited about what\u2019s going to happen try 194(1), because 194(1)\u2014and wait for it, I wish perhaps a drumroll from those up there\u2014\u201C(1) When meeting within the Wellington area, a select committee may not meet\u2014(a) during oral questions:\u201D\u2014these are the normal Standing Orders. These are Standing Orders that this motion suspends when it passes. That\u2019s an hour. In fact, sometimes\u2014today, you may have noticed, there was a lot that went on. I think we sit for an extra 10 minutes today. I don\u2019t think we actually got to the business of the House until about 10 past three. So there we\u2019ve created up to another hour and a half for the people at home, because this committee now is permitted to sit during question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBut it gets even better than that. I know, you\u2019ll be thinking: is it possible? We go to 191(1)(b) \u201Cduring a sitting of the House except by leave \u2026\u201D. So normally, a committee cannot sit during a sitting of the House except by leave of the committee. But now we can. So even now while we\u2019re here, while the business of the House, while the world is focused on this Chamber\u2014do you know that under this motion, this brilliant motion of the Minister of Justice, it\u2019ll be possible for a select committee to be sitting in one of the select committee rooms out here? That\u2019s something that\u2019s banned. So again, this creation of time and space\u2014that perhaps they come together at this stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBut it doesn\u2019t finish there\u2014this is like the Ginsu knives of parliamentary business: Standing Order 194(1)(c) \u201Cduring an evening (after 6 pm) on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House.\u201D Normally come six o\u2019clock in the evening, the ability for a select committee to sit to discuss this important matter and any important matter is curtailed. People leave this House. They toddle off. Some of them go to Copperfields. A good meal at Copperfields\u2014I recommend it; good value for money and open to the public when the members are not here. But they can go further. They can go down Lambton Quay. There are some excellent eateries around here and I find that my culinary needs and desires can be met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBut what I can\u2019t do, alas\u2014alas, I can\u2019t do and nor can any other members of the public\u2014they cannot come here and give evidence before a select committee after the doomsday hour, after six o\u2019clock: the bewitching hour. It hasn\u2019t been possible. So now, as a result of this enlightened\u2014enlightened\u2014motion by the Minister of Justice, 194(1)(c) \u201Cduring an evening (after 6 pm) on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo what this magical motion does\u2014what this incredible motion does\u2014is create time and space and perhaps even a visit to Mr Smith, sorry Dr Smith, the Hon Dr Smith\u2019s own electorate of Nelson or Invercargill or the far north. So anyone listening here, sit back in your chair, relax. Don\u2019t listen to the terrible doom and gloom you\u2019ve just heard and may even hear more of across the opposite side of the House. It is darkness there. We haven\u2019t created daylight for them yet, but we have created daylight for those of you sitting at home, those who want to partake and participate in this incredibly important democratic process. So for that reason I absolutely recommend this enlightened motion to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a0943f40a1fc4b2da569a9d8ec8c8b54\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Referendums Framework Bill be reported to the House by 11 November 2019 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day in which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 191, 193, and 194(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2de9dc1584648d78b19f207deeea68a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2de9dc1584648d78b19f207deeea68a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I think after the debate on the first reading of this bill, we missed the Clerk reading the first reading, so I think we\u2019ll do that now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E[Clerk announces first reading]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002242cb7c44748e45ab800b2e5310b525e9\u0022\u003EElectoral Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022190a78d03f1f45ce81d26fe9e871ccb3\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba47f6d3f80a4f0bab2e95ff6b6b62db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba47f6d3f80a4f0bab2e95ff6b6b62db\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Electoral Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019m heartened by the speeches from the members opposite in the last matter the House considered, because the great celebration of democracy that they expressed in their speeches actually lies at the heart of this bill. This bill is about enhancing our democracy. It is about\u2014to use the title of a previous piece of legislation we enacted last year\u2014electoral integrity. It brings fairness to voting across the board. So at the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill will be reported to the House by 16 December 2019.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill, as I said, will enhance our electoral system by making changes to make it easier to vote. So this bill does a number of things that will help New Zealanders\u2019 voting experience. It is an obligation on this House when it is considering electoral law and the laws governing people\u2019s right to vote to make sure that we maximise the ability and the opportunity for people to vote. That means enrolling to vote, because that is, of course, the starting point, and notwithstanding the somewhat kind of mandatory requirement to enrol to vote, actually, it\u2019s something that a lot of people miss out on. They don\u2019t get round to it or they leave it till too late, and we had the situation in 2017 where 19,000 people turned up to vote on election day\u2014on the Saturday that was the nominated, designated election day\u2014and had not enrolled, and they could not vote. They actually did vote, but their votes didn\u2019t count. Here\u2019s the thing; here\u2019s the rub: in the advance voting period, a whole bunch of other people\u2014thousands of people\u2014who when they turned up to the voting booth had not enrolled were able to both enrol and vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve seen some public comments from members opposite who seem to be horrified at this bill making it easier for people to cast their vote by enrolling and voting at the same time, not just in the advance voting period but on voting day itself. That\u2019s what this bill does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, I am sure I misread what I have seen in the newspapers and online. I am sure that after the speeches we\u2019ve heard this afternoon in this House, members will be leaping up to say \u201CThat\u2019s right, Minister of Justice. You\u2019ve got it right. This is just what we need to add fairness to our voting system and to make sure that every voter is treated fairly.\u201D, because, you see, here\u2019s the other thing: as we head into the 2020 general election\u2014which is very important for all of New Zealand\u2014whereas in the 2017 general election we saw 47 percent of voters casting their vote ahead of the designated election day, we are now projecting that up to 65 percent of voters will cast their vote in the advance voting period, leaving 35 percent to cast their vote on election day. So it is no longer defensible to have one rule for the 65 percent who vote before the designated election day and a separate rule for the 35 percent who vote on election day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI am pretty sure, given the speeches we\u2019ve heard this afternoon, that members opposite will of course have to say that that\u2019s right, because if a voting system is going to be credible and if it has integrity, we cannot have different rules for different voters, depending on what day they vote. That is indefensible. That is wrong. So this bill seeks to remedy that particular mischief. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt does other things as well. It actually enables the Electoral Commission to put polling booths in places where currently they cannot. So places that sell liquor on election day, like supermarkets, cannot be used for voting, and yet, actually, on Saturdays, which is still the designated voting day, that is where hundreds of thousands of people go, because doing your grocery shopping on a Saturday is a pretty common thing for most Kiwis to do. So why wouldn\u2019t we make it easier for them to vote by shifting voting booths to where they are in their hundreds of thousands? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOf course people will turn up to the school hall\u2014and if you have kids at the particular school you\u2019ll be used to it, but a lot of people aren\u2019t\u2014and of course we will still have voting booths in the community halls, but not a lot of people go to community halls in their routine weekly endeavours these days. But they do go to the supermarket, so why wouldn\u2019t we make it easier for voters to be able to cast their vote and do so at a supermarket or at a place that would sell liquor? Now, there is a restraint on that. It has to be a place that even though it sells liquor, liquor cannot be consumed there, which makes it ideal for malls and supermarkets and the like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo this bill is about enhancing our democracy. It makes it easier for voters to enrol and also to vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI did hear an argument in the public dispatches, and I don\u2019t know whether it came from a member opposite. I\u2019m pretty sure after I\u2019ve heard the speeches this afternoon that it wouldn\u2019t have done, but I did hear an argument that said \u201CWell, what is it that Labour\u2019s trying to get? If they\u2019re trying to introduce this fairness measure, are they trying to get more people to vote?\u201D, as if it was something that was wrong. It was as if the system that we\u2019ve got at the moment that is shutting people out\u201419,000 people in 2017\u2014from casting their democratic right was somehow OK, and, of course, it\u2019s not. We have to remedy that, and that\u2019s what this bill does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo I think it is great that we are getting to grips with modern changes in people\u2019s patterns of life. This is the way people are\u2014they don\u2019t get round to enrolling. I mean, it doesn\u2019t help, of course, that with the prisoner voting legislation that the previous Government passed, some people are not just denied the opportunity to vote but they are struck off the roll completely, which is the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd50591b839c40f290bdc73a42cca53d\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c48facbc8df4b2fa1342a0abd713f68\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: That was a National Party initiative\u2014that was a National Party initiative. The National Party\u2014unfortunately\u2014historically, typically did not care about some people\u2019s right to vote. I know they\u2019ve turned the page on that. I know they\u2019ve turned a new leaf. When you heard them this afternoon, it was very clear that this current generation of National MPs have abandoned their historical past and they actually want to enhance democracy, and I welcome that. I welcome that. I am so looking forward to the great speeches they are going to give this afternoon, because they are going to be amazing\u2014amazing\u2014celebrations of democracy, because they are well rehearsed now. They\u2019ve had a good run at it. Nick Smith\u2019s got his blood pressure up. He\u2019ll have a great performance this afternoon, and that will be very good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo this legislation makes it easier to vote by changing the enrolment and voting processes\u2014particularly for election day\u2014but also by making sure that there are more venues where people can cast their vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of other technical changes too, that are in relation to the liquor licensing. As long as the place sells alcohol but you can\u2019t consumer it there, then that\u2019s a place where you can vote, but it also has to provide for the counting of votes for those booths because, typically, they cannot be counted on site. So the bill provides for the Electoral Commission and the Chief Electoral Officer themselves or to mandate others to take the votes that have been cast in the ballot box\u2014under security, no doubt\u2014and move them to another place for the counting, and I think that will be very helpful, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe other thing the bill does that is very important is it updates and upgrades the current provisions on handling an emergency\u2014a civil emergency or a weather emergency or call it what you like. There are provisions at the moment, but it means that the electoral officer for the particular electorate has to make a variety of decisions, and if you have a civil emergency like a weather emergency\u2014a mass flooding or something that disrupts multiple electorates\u2014you\u2019ve got to line up all the electoral officers in each of those areas to make a decision. This allows the Chief Electoral Officer to make decisions dealing with emergencies that arise that have an impact on people\u2019s ability to vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhat it says is that if there is a major emergency that requires perhaps closing voting booths and voting places or shifting them around, then the Chief Electoral Officer can do that, and there is a consultation process with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. It is not for them to veto it and not for them to make the decision, but as a kind of a courtesy at least and to make sure that everybody is plugged in to the fact that when emergencies are of a significant nature and size and changes have to be made, then the Chief Electoral Officer will consult those two. It\u2019s got to be even-handed, it\u2019s non-political, it\u2019s neutral, but it means that everybody gets to know what is going on. So it does that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of other technical changes in it about pushing out the vote count, because if we\u2019re going to have enrolment and election on the same day, then we need to push out the period in which the returning officers can conduct the vote and make their return of the writ. So it does that, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo this is about thinking very carefully about changes that are happening, changes about people\u2019s patterns of life, and changes in the weather. The risk of weather events now interrupting an election is very high, and we need to be able to provide for it by giving the Chief Electoral Officer the power to make relevant decisions. So all that is there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt goes to the select committee and it will be scrutinised very carefully, I know. These changes are very important for the integrity of the 2020 general election and the elections beyond. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6e952a1f8324c3aa8647a271303c553\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6e952a1f8324c3aa8647a271303c553\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is another shonky chapter in the very poor process that this Government has had in respect of electoral law. If we take the first issue around process, every Government electoral bill that was introduced in the last nine years of the previous Government, or in the nine years of the Bolger-Shipley Government, involved consultation with all parties. This is not the first; this is not the second; this is the third time the Minister of Justice has introduced electoral law changes without any consultation with the Opposition at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, we could take from the speech that we just heard from Shane Jones that this Government\u2019s view of electoral law can be summed up by Shane Jones with these words: \u201CWe won, you lost, eat that.\u201D That\u2019s their constitutional priority around electoral law. If we want to cheat and screw the scrum to win the next election by changing the electoral law to advantage ourselves, well that\u2019s what we\u2019re entitled to do, because we have a majority in the Parliament. Then we even heard worse from Tracey Martin from New Zealand First, who said these words: \u201CYou cannot trust the Parliament.\u201D\u2014you can trust the Government, but you cannot trust the Parliament. What sort of arrogance and anti-democratic views we now have in the Government that purports to represent New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWhen we come to electoral law, here are the important considerations that we on this side of the House sign up to. The first of those is that we want to maximise the participation. We want to ensure that every New Zealander who\u2019s eligible to vote is able to vote. Equally so, we would argue that we want an electoral system with integrity. We want to make sure that people can\u2019t cheat, that people that aren\u2019t eligible to vote aren\u2019t able to get into the electoral system. Then the third key priority for National is that we have an efficient and fair electoral law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, I want to draw attention to the process around this bill and the conventions of this Parliament. After every election, we have a Justice Committee inquiry, and the normal process\u2014the process that\u2019s been adopted in the previous Parliaments all the way back to World War II\u2014is that after an election, there\u2019s a select committee inquiry where we work cooperatively across the Parliament as to how we can improve electoral law. We make recommendations to the Parliament, and the Government then brings a bill to the House. None of that process has been followed. All of the issues in this bill are currently before the Justice Committee. The Government has jumped the gun ahead of that Justice Committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe part that had me choking on my Kornies was when the Minister said that the reason the Justice Committee has not completed its inquiry into the 2017 election is National\u2019s fault. Well, let me put the record very clear. The Justice Committee, of which Raymond Huo was the chair, did not even start the inquiry until September of 2018. Whose fault was it that nothing was done for the first year? The Labour chair of the committee did not put the item on the agenda. Then we\u2019ve had six changes in the chair of the Justice Committee. We\u2019ve got the fiasco of the Justice Committee having a chair of the committee who has not heard a single submission. [Interruption] Mr Greg O\u2019Connor disputes that. It is absolutely true that we are now on to the sixth chair of the inquiry into the 2017 election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen I say to the House, in respect of that inquiry, the Minister, who accused us after of going too slow, writes to the committee in December last year and extends its terms of reference. Then the ultimate bad faith from members of the Government on that select committee inquiry into the 2017 election was the decision for Labour to substitute one of its members for Jami-Lee Ross, whose sole purpose is to carry out\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297b43ef1241445f990997baf3601f66d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to interrupt the member, but it would be very advantageous if he could speak to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022043ad8fef7fc480795161cee0714ec14\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It is the longstanding practice that electoral reform bills follow the Justice Committee. The Minister has said that the reason this bill is being introduced to pre-empt that process is because of that Justice Committee process, and that is why it is entirely appropriate that I address that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, the first provision of this bill takes an exception to what is the practice in other democracies such as Australia, such as the United Kingdom, such as the European community. In all of those democracies, people are required to enrol before polling day. The question that I have for members opposite is: why does New Zealand want to step away from the electoral norm? What is the point in having a law that requires people to enrol if we say with this bill that you can enrol and vote at the same time? There\u2019s a very simple incentive that goes with this bill, and that is if you can enrol and vote at the same time, why would any New Zealander bother to enrol in advance? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second point on the provisions around same-day enrolment and voting is that the Electoral Commission has said that they cannot provide the writ and the result of the elections for another 10 days. It\u2019s only been mentioned by the Minister today\u2014he never mentioned it when he put his press release out. The implication of same-day enrolment is that the writ for the election results is going to be delayed by 10 days. That is 10 days less in which we have a Government. That\u2019s 10 days more that we have bureaucrats twiddling their thumbs at a cost of tens of millions of dollars each day. Why should the formation of Government be delayed because people are not meeting their legal requirement to enrol prior to voting day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI also want to say there\u2019s a dual right that goes with elections. As candidates in this Parliament have a right to be known by the voters in advance of an election, equally candidates have a right to be able to make contact, to be able to write to voters, and to be able to communicate with them. How can candidates communicate with voters if they are not required to enrol? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen we come to the second provision of the bill, which National members support and are quite relaxed about, and that is in respect of allowing premises that have an alcohol licence\u2014to give a greater flexibility for those places being able to be polling booths. We have no difficulty in that regard. We do want to scrutinise at select committee the issue around votes not being counted at the polling place. It is a longstanding provision that the votes are counted in the same place in which the polling results actually occur. Then in the bill, the bill gives very wide powers for returning officers to be able to override other provisions in the Electoral Act in respect of issues of where there is disruption from a storm or event or something else. It is our view that the Leader of the Opposition should be consulted, and that is not provided for in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is very unusual. You couldn\u2019t introduce a bill like this into the Australian, the American, or many other Parliaments. We don\u2019t have a constitution. We run our electoral system on conventions, and those conventions are that we work on a cross-party basis to try and develop the very best of electoral law. What this Government has done once with the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill, secondly with the Electoral Referendum Bill, and now with this Electoral Amendment Bill is to provide absolutely zero consultation with the largest party in this Parliament. I\u2019ve a simple message for members opposite: electoral law is not a plaything for the Government of the day. You don\u2019t get to pick and choose the Electoral Commission recommendations that might advance your own re-election. We need to have some respect for electoral law and ensure that we have an electoral system that serves our country well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebb5998a8895498ba5b4e972e5655327\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebb5998a8895498ba5b4e972e5655327\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, but the time for his contribution has ended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022a001fb639e2a46398cfa43dcad869f89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a001fb639e2a46398cfa43dcad869f89\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to take a call and be part of the fiery debate that\u2019s been going in the House this afternoon. Of course, this is the first reading of the Electoral Amendment Bill, and, like the Hon Andrew Little\u2014I was going to call him his M\u0101ori name, but Andrew Little\u2014laid out, it has four parts. I want to address the four parts, but I want to just reply to some of the challenges that that particular member, Nick Smith\u2014an experienced member in this House\u2014raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ECan I just say, this Thursday will be a week since I\u2019ve been the chair of the Justice Committee, and I\u2019m proud of the work that previous members have done and the amount of work that they\u2019ve put through this House in terms of the 19 bills that have come through this House. We\u2019re not a committee that is shy of hard work. So this particular bill, the Electoral Amendment Bill\u2014I\u2019m pleased that as part of the coalition Government, we tackle the big issues, and voter participation is a big issue. It is an issue that this side of the House thinks is important for not just next year\u2019s general election but beyond that. We are talking about improving our electoral system in this country, which goes beyond the three-year cycle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThe Minister outlined there are four key components of this bill. He talked about the election day\u2014vote and register on the same day. I have a story of my own 19-year-old son going to vote in an advance vote, only to find out that he wasn\u2019t registered. So we thought that we could register and he cast his vote. We got told that his party vote was accepted but not his candidate vote, so him and I have this kind of joke that he wasn\u2019t able to vote for his mum in the last 2017 vote. But it goes to show there are sectors of our community that do miss out, and this bill is attempting to make that experience of rocking on up to the election poll on election day and find that you haven\u2019t registered to not only vote but to also cast your vote, and that\u2019s what this bill is attempting to do. I\u2019m surprised that all members of this House don\u2019t see value in allowing all voters in this country who are eligible\u201418 years and over\u2014to have the ability to vote and register on election day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThe bill also talks about the extra places that the Minister canvassed\u2014he talked about, obviously, supermarkets, but we\u2019ve got community halls\u2014to give the Electoral Commission the flexibility to have venues that are fit for purpose for a voter experience, and so this bill talks about expanding the range of premises that can be used as voting places. Of course, the other area is improving voter issuing and return processes, like a register, and we talk in parts in this bill about the ongoing work that the Electoral Commission is doing by 2023 of instituting an electronic register. But in this election for 2020, we want to make sure that we are ensuring that the ordinary vote that\u2019s issued is found on the electoral roll at the time and allows, again, those first-time voters, or voters who thought they were registered, the mechanisms in which they can turn up and vote and have their register, electronically or likewise, acknowledged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThe fourth area is the disruptive powers given to the commission. For me personally, I\u2019m keen when we go out for consultation on this bill that submitters actually have an input into the width and the breadth of the powers that we are updating for the Chief Electoral Officer in terms of what constitutes a disruption to, obviously, voting day and how that is managed. So there is a whole list of provisions in this bill that talks about the disruption to the voting experience and the role that the Chief Electoral Officer will play in either moving or making decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ENow, on that side of the House, we had the Hon Nick Smith talk about the involvement of the Opposition leader in that decision making. Well, you know, we could put that to the select committee and hear from people, New Zealanders, about whether they think that\u2019s practical or whether that will work. In terms of some of the other comments that Dr Smith talked about in terms of process, when I reference in my contribution to this particular debate, I\u2019m using the departmental disclosure statement. Obviously, we\u2019ve all got that in the House. But the first question talks about what available inquiries or reviews or reports have gone in to inform this particular bill, and there\u2019s not one report, there\u2019s not two reports, but there\u2019s actually three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s three reports that have gone in to inform this bill. They are the Report of the Electoral Commission on the 2014 General Election, Electoral Commission, April 2015; there\u2019s the Inquiry into the 2014 General Election, Justice and Electoral Committee, which was chaired by Jacqui Dean, in April 2016; and then the third report was the Report of the Electoral Commission on the 2017 General Election, Electoral Commission, April 2018. So the concerns on that side of the House that this bill has been put together without any information from outside reports, I guess, by the study in this departmental\u2014it completely nullifies those statements, because clearly it says that there have been three reports that have gone into this particular bill. It also has come up, and Dr Smith raised it, that the Minister wrote to the Justice Committee in December last year, inviting them to examine the Electoral Commission\u2019s report, and, of course, we\u2019ve heard that nothing came back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo this is a Government that is committed to doing the right thing, that takes action, and that wants to ensure that our electoral system is voter-friendly and that all people, no matter where they are in this country, can participate in our general election in 2020 but beyond. This bill, in its simplicity, does address those key areas, like we said: vote and registration on the same day, the fact that we can expand where we\u2019re going to hold elections, and, of course, the electoral registration, and, of course, the disruptive powers that I\u2019ve mentioned earlier. It is a piece of legislation that I thought all parties in this House would agree allows participation of our voters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ELike I said in my opening stance, this is a very hard-working select committee. I am sure that we will scrutinise it in the time that we\u2019ve been allocated. We will ensure that it goes far and wide. I know that this committee is a very diligent committee, that every submission will be scrutinised and debated on, and that\u2019s good because when the bills come back into this House from that particular select committee, they have been thoroughly scrutinised and thoroughly tested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EWithout prolonging this first speech, I\u2019m really supportive that it is being made in this House and that it is going off to our select committee. We\u2019ve been tasked to report back in December\u2014I think it was December, December later this year. Obviously, it will give the Electoral Commission great clarity and steer in terms of expectations for next year\u2019s general election. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00221a6fad66edbe4f55b63e6355c2363628\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a6fad66edbe4f55b63e6355c2363628\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Assistant Speaker, and if I haven\u2019t done so already, congratulations on your promotion to that prestigious position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ELook, the National Party opposes this bill, and I want to make two points in my contribution to this debate. The first is to start about the process. It is hard to find or hard to think of a worse process than what the Government has conducted on this very important piece of electoral legislation, and my colleague and friend Dr Nick Smith has gone through the appalling way the Government has gone about introducing this bill to the Parliament and now referring it to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFor time immemorial, after an election the Justice Committee holds an inquiry. They go through all the things that happened in the election. Generally, that\u2019s done on a pretty bipartisan basis, and committee hears the submissions and then the Justice Committee makes a report to the Parliament\u2014again, done reasonably collegially, on a bipartisan basis. The Government then picks up a piece of legislation and introduces any amendment bill to the House. Critically, that bill is consulted on between the Government and the Opposition, because our electoral law should never become the plaything of politicians. It\u2019s too important for that\u2014too important an issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve only been a member of Parliament for 4\u00BD years\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225243532209ff4367879c76da5c309826\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Too long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249f063f1244f42af970e18e2103716db\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but I had the privilege of\u2014ha, ha! \u201CToo long.\u201D, says my fellow parliamentary co-captain, Kieran McAnulty. Well, we\u2019ll let the voters decide. But I\u2019ve only had the privilege of being an MP for 4\u00BD years, but I have served on the Justice Committee, and that\u2019s exactly the process that we went through after the 2014 election. The now Prime Minister sat on that committee. She well knows the process that members of Parliament go through, and it worked really well. The Hon Amy Adams was the Minister of Justice after the 2014 election. She accepted the report of the parliamentary select committee. The Minister worked with the Opposition front-bencher who had responsibility for the justice portfolio, and there were a series of very sensible changes made and the Electoral Amendment Bill went through the previous Parliament, the 50th Parliament, I think unanimously, and passed the Parliament\u2014no worries with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWhat we have here is a Government, firstly, acting in advance of that select committee inquiry. Now, the Minister Andrew Little says that the committee has taken too long. Well, actually, we\u2019re in July 2019. The committee is, as I understand it\u2014I\u2019m no longer a member\u2014reasonably soon to report back. There is more than enough time to listen to what the committee has to say. Critically\u2014and this is the second point\u2014the Government has not consulted with the Opposition. The Government has not consulted with the Opposition, and some of the changes here are controversial. Frankly, I think it is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, Minister Shane Jones was here before. He pretty much summed up the Government\u2019s approach to electoral law matters, echoing Michael Cullen, that famous dictum after the 1999 election: \u201CWe won, you lost, eat that.\u201D Well, actually, I\u2019ve got to say that is an atrocious way to treat electoral law, which should be far above the normal, sort of, dictates of political process. It should be something that is far more important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo we object to the way in which this bill has been put together from the start. Sadly, it is all too common with Labour Governments. I remember working here in the 2005 to 2008 Parliament when the last Labour Government rammed through Parliament the constitutionally objectionable Electoral Finance Bill against massive opposition from not just the National Party Opposition sitting on this side but the Human Rights Commission, the New Zealand Law Society\u2014a range of august bodies that told the Labour Government of the day not to ram through a bill that stifled free speech. They did it anyway despite all injunctions to them to not do so, and, sadly, here we are again, and, of course, we\u2019ve already had the debacle of the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill earlier on in the life of this Parliament. So I really just do plead with members opposite: just consider the damage you are doing to our unwritten constitution when it is the case that the Labour Party can win Government and act without even consulting the Opposition to introduce electoral amendment bills. I think it is genuinely appalling, and we object to the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ELet me talk to the second issue to do with the bill, which is the issue of same-day enrolment. Now, there is a case to be made for same-day enrolment, but there is also a strong case to be made in opposition to it. Let me outline some of the reasons why we in the National Party are concerned about this. The first thing to note is, as part of the inquiry, the Electoral Commission came before the Parliament and told us that if Parliament wanted to do this and if we wanted to implement it for a general election, we should do it for the 2023 general election, not for the 2020 election. That\u2019s the Electoral Commission. That\u2019s the advice from the experts. It would be fair to say they strongly implored the Parliament to only implement it for the 2023 election. Why is that? Well, actually, there are quite significant implications to election day from what the Government is proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second thing to say is I encourage members opposite, who clearly haven\u2019t done this, and I encourage all members of the House to go and read the regulatory impact statement provided by the Ministry of Justice. It is a warning to the Parliament and to the Government about implementing this in time for the 2020 election. I noticed that Andrew Little, the Minister, has not really advertised the fact, which I think members will be interested in, that the result of the election is now going to be delayed for 10 days as a result of this piece of legislation, because the bill quite neatly inserts into it a provision to allow the return of the writs to 60 days after its issue. I\u2019m just quoting from the general policy statement of the bill: \u201CThis change is necessary to support the Electoral Commission to manage the introduction of enrolment on election day and provide more time to process the increased numbers of enrolment and update forms before the official count\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, members opposite may not know a lot about how our elections work. In 2017, 17 percent of all votes counted were special votes\u201417 percent. Almost one in five votes cast at the election were special votes. Special votes take 10 times longer\u2014it\u2019s not my words; these are the words of the Ministry of Justice in their regulatory impact statement\u2014to process than ordinary votes. One of the effects of this piece of legislation will be a very large increase in the number of special votes. So that\u2019s exactly why the Electoral Commission said to the parliamentary select committee considering this: \u201CDon\u2019t do it necessarily for 2020. If you are going to do it, do it for 2023.\u201D, but yet we have the Government saying \u201CNo, no, we\u2019re going to do it for 2020.\u201D in, I believe, contravention of all the advice provided by the experts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere are good reasons to ask people to get on to the rolls. There are very good reasons to get people on to the rolls. When you\u2019re on the roll, you can be sent information from the Electoral Commission about voting. You can be sent information by political parties. Remember, jury service is dictated by who\u2019s on the electoral roll. It\u2019s actually very important that we have our rolls as up to date as possible. What does this bill do? It sends the message that enrolment is optional, actually, that enrolment is something you don\u2019t necessarily need to do until election day. What we will see is far more people rocking up on election day and enrolling, and they won\u2019t be doing it in advance. So, yes, it will increase participation. Yes, it will increase the number of votes cast, but we need to be careful about the practical implementation of same-day enrolment and same-day voting. Members opposite I don\u2019t think are aware of the extension of the writs that will be required, of the 10-day extension of the election results being declared, of the massive increase in special votes that will be required to be counted. I encourage members to go and read the regulatory impact statement, which outlines a range of risks to the integrity of the election because of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe support many of the other changes in the bill, as my colleague Nick Smith has mentioned. We support expanding the range of premises that can be used as voting places. I think that\u2019s a sensible change. There\u2019s some changes around improving the way vote issuing and returns are done. Polling day disruptions\u2014they seem like generally sensible changes. But to have a Government turn up here and arrogantly arrogate to itself the right to force through Parliament a bill that makes fundamental changes to our electoral system, without consulting the Opposition and in advance of the Justice Committee inquiry, is disgraceful in the extreme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022 data-id=\u0022d99395347b1f41dabb1033f27565e915\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d99395347b1f41dabb1033f27565e915\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. What we just heard from Chris Bishop in the last 30 seconds\u2014probably less\u2014was he rattled off a few things that they agree with in the bill. The first five minutes of his speech, literally, were about one thing: obviously, trying to convey to us why the National Party and he in particular doesn\u2019t support this bill. I listened to Nick Smith prior to that and couldn\u2019t figure out whether he supported or didn\u2019t support this bill. I\u2019m glad that Chris Bishop actually said, \u201CI don\u2019t support this bill.\u201D What Chris Bishop said in the first five minutes is that the main reason\u2014obviously it\u2019s the main reason, because it took half his speech\u2014was that they weren\u2019t consulted, that the Opposition wasn\u2019t consulted on a piece of legislation\u2014\u201CTherefore, that\u2019s our main reason to oppose it.\u201D He spent more than five minutes of his 10-minute allocation complaining about not being consulted on a piece of legislation going through this House about electoral issues, right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EThen his second main point was that it\u2019s going to delay things by 10 days\u2014it\u2019s going to delay things by 10 days\u2014but in the same breath, he said, yes, this will increase voter turnout. This will increase access to people to ensure that they can vote, but it\u2019s going to delay it by another 10 days. That\u2019s the second reason why they\u2019re going to not support this bill, and then, like I said, he used 30 seconds or so to list the majority of the bill that they agree with but they\u2019re voting against. The National Party can\u2019t have it both ways. They can\u2019t agree with the majority of the bill and the intent of the bill and then have two pathetic reasons why they\u2019re not going to support it and then vote no at the first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EWhat I want to get on to is what Nick Smith said. There\u2019s one thing in particular he said that stood out for me. I was getting a glass of water over there on the floor, and I almost dropped it. The main reason why he\u2019s not supporting this bill\u2014he said, \u201CThe Government is trying to win the next election by screwing it in the Government\u2019s favour. The Government\u2019s trying to screw the scrum\u201D, I think he said\u2014\u201Cscrew the scrum\u201D. So the Government is going to win the election, going to screw it in our favour. Now, what he\u2019s just said is that more people who vote, the more people who have access to vote, is going to make the Government win the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022352ee3ece53d44fca66751ce7f547a4a\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Worked for the Republicans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f9b2c33bbb544c69dac17cc5ece9632\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: Is that what the member said?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254d587eafb3748f8ba1e97b960a1488a\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ffffc7cd43d4286bca3ed41afb11ab0\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member going to deny that? I\u2019m not sure that he actually understood what he said\u2014I don\u2019t think he understood what he said. So what\u2019s the opposite to that? That National don\u2019t want more people to go out to vote, that National don\u2019t want more people to have access to vote, because that will mean that they\u2019ll have favour in the election. If people are empowered in this country, like Nick Smith says, they\u2019re going to vote for the sitting Government. That\u2019s what Nick Smith has just said, and I hope people are watching, because what he\u2019s just admitted\u2014so there\u2019s three things for the public of this country to understand, the three main reasons why the National Party is not supporting this bill to give more access, and to get more people to vote: because the National Party think that it\u2019s going to make the Government win the election, that they weren\u2019t consulted about it in the first place, and it\u2019s going to delay things by 10 days. That\u2019s why the National Party is not going to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a couple of things that I\u2019d like to mention. The first is that I had the tremendous honour, actually, as a parliamentarian to go over and have a look at and observe the recent Fijian election, and the election in the Solomons as well. The\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0abb63cdd554ac9b4ce3bdc2631ab74\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Do they allow same-day enrolment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f201fb4073a4225910c4738e568b088\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: See, look at this\u2014I mean, this is pathetic. This is ridiculous\u2014this is ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EIt was a tremendous honour for me to do that, and one thing that I learnt is that we take for granted in this country our democratic process, we take for granted the trust that we have in our system and Electoral Commission, and we take for granted the access that we have to vote, the access to our MPs, and the ability for us to get out and vote. What, ironically, Dr Nick Smith was waxing lyrical about on the bill prior to this was all about the fairness of the electoral system. Well, if he took just an ounce of his own advice, then he would be voting for this bill and wouldn\u2019t be complaining that we are increasing the fairness, with this bill, of the electoral system by giving access, by allowing more people to vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EBut here\u2019s the more important thing, and it was made clear by the Minister: that because of the advance voting that is allowed in this country, it is estimated that approximately 65 percent of all people, of all voters that will vote in the 2020 election, will be doing it prior to the election day. What those 65 percent of all of those voters are able to do are to enrol and vote on the same day. When they decide to go and vote, they can enrol on the same day. For the fairness of the electoral process, we need to be able to do that on the election day itself. Otherwise, we\u2019re going to have\u2014and it was 19,000 people last election that wanted to exercise their democratic right to vote, but they were denied that ability to do that. Now, if Nick Smith and his colleagues in the National Party are saying that\u2019s fair, and they want to take an ounce of their own advice from their speeches on the previous bill about the importance of the fairness of the vote and the ability to vote, then they will vote for this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EWhat I want to do in the last couple of minutes is just outline the main aims and intent that the National Party are voting against in this bill. The first is to \u201Cimprove the enrolment and voting processes to better enfranchise voters\u201D. The National Party are voting against that in the first reading. To \u201Cuphold the integrity of the electoral system by ensuring that elections are conducted efficiently and securely\u201D\u2014the National Party are voting against that intent, and against that aim. They are also voting against giving \u201Csupport [to] the effective conduct of future elections.\u201D They are voting against those aims and intents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will be supporting this bill. We would like to have this bill go through to select committee for its scrutiny that the select committee does. We have a few questions about the practicality of what we want to implement and what we agree with in regards to the intent of this bill\u2014around the ability for supermarkets, for example, to hold voting booths. We agree with the fact that, as written in the legislation and as the Minister outlined, venues such as supermarkets and sports clubs, etc., should have the ability to be able to hold voting booths, and ensure that people can vote there, because they are where people go to as hubs, and they do that on election days, and why would we not give them the ability to vote at the same time. But we\u2019d like to see the practicalities in regards to that, as well as any issues that fall out in regards to possibility of electioneering issues within supermarkets as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EBut I think that there\u2019s one point I\u2019d like to make. In a robust democracy, there\u2019s responsibility on both Parliament and on the public to ensure that we both play parts in maintaining the robustness of democracy and our democratic process. The Government needs to ensure there\u2019s access to that system, that the maximum number of people are out there and voting, and also that the information is out there for them to make informed votes. But the people need to go there too, need to understand they have a responsibility and obligation to vote, first and foremost, but also to make an informed vote, and to make the effort to vote. So we\u2019ve got that expectation as well in the people of this country. We look forward to the committee stage, where we will see more detail about how this will be implemented, but we\u2019ll be supporting it through this first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa11e816cbfa4ab09f95f9e5bdf447aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa11e816cbfa4ab09f95f9e5bdf447aa\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, Darroch Ball, who\u2019s just resumed his seat, has endeavoured to suggest that the National Party is opposed to all measures in this bill. That isn\u2019t the case, but of course we have to oppose it, because there are important aspects of this bill that are objectionable, and we have no option but to oppose the bill in its entirety while those objectionable provisions are there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI want to make the point to the member that one of the practical outcomes of the enactment of this legislation, if indeed it is enacted, is that it will push out by about 10 days the period which will be available even for the commencement of coalition negotiations. Now, I know that New Zealand First has a proud track record of delaying the formation of a Government as long as possible, but the voters don\u2019t like that, and it\u2019s worth noting that during that period of uncertainty, business confidence and markets tend to get spooked. They don\u2019t like the uncertainty that comes with not knowing what the shape of a future Government is going to be. So there are some practical implications of delaying that. That\u2019s just a point I\u2019d make to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI think far more important is the fact that we\u2019re halfway through this debate and not a single member of the Government has yet acknowledged the very important objection that the Opposition is putting forward, and that is that we have had, in the main, a very proud history in this country of a bipartisan approach to changes to our electoral laws for reasons that will be patently obvious to anybody listening to the debate, and that is that no party should be able to screw the scrum by changing electoral laws to suit its own objectives. Of course, as has already been mentioned in this debate, the Labour Party attempted to do that quite spectacularly in 2007 with their far from lamented Electoral Finance Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI would actually argue that the Electoral Finance Act was one of the most significant final nails in the coffin of Helen Clark\u2019s Government, and I\u2019ve had former Labour members of Parliament confirm that to me\u2014that they hated the Act with a passion when they realised just how bad it was. But they\u2019d supported it, and, ironically, exactly the same parties\u2014three parties\u2014in this Parliament that are passing this particular bill were the ones who were responsible for that travesty: Labour, New Zealand First, and the Greens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EBut, even more importantly, going back several decades in this country, we have had the approach taken by, in the main, National Governments of reaching out to Oppositions led by Labour to show goodwill and a desire to get electoral law that everybody can agree with and see as being fair. It happened under the Bolger-Shipley Government. It happened under the John Key - Bill English Government. It even went back all the way to 1956, when the first National Government consulted with Labour on a set of changes that everyone could live with to end a period when things like the length of the Parliament had been mucked around with by the Government of the day. And yet Labour is reverting back to type.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWe only found out about some of the sneaky changes in this particular bill when questions were asked at the Estimates hearing a few weeks ago and it became apparent that they were going about this in a sneaky way, with poor process. And, of course, we\u2019ve had the Minister today complaining that the committee had failed to do its work and that that is why he needed to take the steps of introducing this measure. Well, that is absolutely nonsense, because it was he who wrote to the committee last December wanting the terms of reference extended, and it was Labour members who wanted local electoral law included. So the fact that the committee has taken longer to get on with its job must be laid fairly at the door of the Minister and his parliamentary colleagues in the Labour Party and the other parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EIt is unbelievable that we are here tonight debating another unjustifiable and unprincipled electoral bill immediately after the outrageous referenda frameworks bill, which preceded it\u2014and I say \u201Creferenda\u201D deliberately because, as my colleague the member for Helensville\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d65ee2c9479244aaa9a04f6925de00fa\u0022\u003EHon Iain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s no such word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fa494f0689d41b08385fc133e8abe40\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Of course there\u2019s a word. Referenda? My goodness, I cannot believe that the Minister of Immigration says there is no such word as \u201Creferenda\u201D. I invite him to go back to school and discover that that is the plural of the word \u201Creferendum\u201D and that is probably why that bill was misnamed from the outset\u2014the title is incorrect and so are all of its provisions. But the point I wanted to make was that we had that extraordinary moment in the House during the previous debates when the Hon Tracey Martin, a Cabinet Minister in this Government, gave us the observation that Parliament cannot be trusted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ESo New Zealand First, which has not a single electorate member in this Parliament, which chose two years ago not to coalesce with the largest party in the Parliament following the 2017 general election\u2014the party which probably had the strongest mandate to be in that position, and, of course, they were thumbing their noses at the wishes of tens of thousands of New Zealanders in doing that, but that was their right to do that\u2014and which, on recent opinion polls, has been languishing on about 3 percent, so stands very little chance of being back here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022634aec149dbb4750934622c6c90215b4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Feel free to speak to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e421a6b368bf4c9594fe14df61ab05ce\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: I am speaking to the bill, Madam Speaker. Yes, a Minister in that party was telling us that Parliament cannot be trusted, and that, I suggest, is absolutely\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dabb0b46c5db4e1c88c88ec200986d15\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Feel free to speak to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215717de7c8e74aa0904bc4fce911b6d9\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014fundamental to the bill. So this Government is advancing another obnoxious measure, this Electoral Amendment Bill, ignoring constitutional convention, ignoring parliamentary precedent, and abusing our treasured democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThere are three obvious main purposes for this bill, but you won\u2019t find them in the explanatory note of the bill, which I\u2019m holding up at the moment, because the first obvious purpose of this bill is to ignore the detailed inquiry conducted by Parliament\u2019s Justice Committee, because this Government clearly thinks that the committee is unlikely to recommend some of the more egregious provisions of the bill. The second is clearly to bypass longstanding conventions around electoral law, which are vital to upholding and preserving our parliamentary democracy. And the third obvious purpose of this bill is to boost the chances of Labour and Green MPs being re-elected by screwing the scrum to suit their own purposes, while adding considerable difficulty to the work of the Electoral Commission and delaying the declaration of results, as I mentioned at the outset, and the commencement of expected coalition talks. Well, if time permits, I\u2019ll return to some of those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI do want to stress that there are some measures of this bill that we could, on this side of the House, support. Of course we want as many eligible people in New Zealand to enrol and to vote and to participate in our democracy. Minister Little\u2019s silly claim to the contrary earlier was absolutely laughable. That\u2019s why expanding the range of places in New Zealand where we can cast our votes is reasonable; we\u2019re happy to support that. It\u2019s hoped that that would increase voter participation. We expect that the Electoral Commission will be able to identify secure and appropriate premises, such as supermarkets\u2014as long as they\u2019re away from the area where alcohol is sold\u2014conference centres, community centres, sports clubs, and so on. I don\u2019t think that many people would disagree with that. There are some measures that could be taken to improve the electronic technology that is now available to us and the way that it is used in future elections. There probably are better ways of dealing with electoral irregularities than current procedures provide for, but I don\u2019t want to pre-empt the possible recommendation of the Justice Committee in our yet to be completed and reported inquiry into the 2017 election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ETherein lies one of the great failings of this bill. It renders almost pointless the work that the Justice Committee has been doing in its inquiry into the 2017 general election by rushing measures of this nature through that haven\u2019t been fully scrutinised by that committee or recommended to the House by the committee in their report. Not only is the Justice Committee being ignored; so too is the Opposition despite the time-honoured and vital convention, as I mentioned earlier, that Governments consult Opposition parties on all such matters before proposing changes to electoral laws\u2014for reasons that I\u2019m sure are obvious to people listening to this debate at home, even if they are understood and not considered significant by Government members. Well, I say shame on them for that. Shame on those Government members. A Government that rams through controversial changes to electoral laws to suit themselves, as those same three parties did with the Electoral Finance Act 2007, cannot be trusted to govern. And, as I said, I believe that when they made that mistake in 2007, it was a big factor in their defeat the following year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EIt isn\u2019t difficult to enrol in New Zealand; doing so in good time is made very easy by the Electoral Commission and, I would suggest, is a responsibility of all New Zealanders who take seriously our democratic freedoms, which we should all treasure. I accept that it\u2019s their right not to be interested in the election, but I do not accept it as their right to frustrate the will of the people and delay our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u00227d310d92384b48bb9b05736bf576079f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d310d92384b48bb9b05736bf576079f\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019d like to begin by congratulating the Minister of Justice on this bill, which demonstrates his commitment to democracy and to strengthening the access of all New Zealanders to their democracy. This bill is an investment in the accessibility of all voters to our system of Government. It removes arbitrary bars to voting that we\u2019ve seen have frightening effect on the health of any democracy. We\u2019ve seen this overseas. We\u2019ve seen that these types of arbitrary bars can be utilised in other systems to, effectively, disenfranchise entire segments of society. We\u2019ve seen it in particular in the United States, where the requirements to have certain types of ID to enrol to vote and to travel distances to polling or voting stations have, effectively, disenfranchised those who can\u2019t afford that type of access. So this bill, importantly, makes it easier to enrol to vote by allowing for that to happen on the day of election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ENow, the types of people who might find it difficult to enrol before that day might be people who don\u2019t have a fixed abode\u2014people who have to move around because rental properties are not yet all that secure here. The types of people that are busy, that have more than one job, that have families\u2014these are the kinds of people that the National Party says are more likely to vote for Labour and the Greens or for the Government, indeed, and less likely to vote for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ENext, the bill allows for voting in more types of places\u2014like malls, like supermarkets. It makes it easier for people to go in and vote while they\u2019re doing other things that they need to do in their busy lives. What kind of people would find that more useful? Busy families, again, people with multiple jobs, and people who don\u2019t work regular hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s extraordinary to have the Opposition say that these are the types of people who would prevent them from getting into Government if they were able to more easily cast their vote. It\u2019s extraordinary to hear politicians admit that their success was predicated on the lack of access to voting by ordinary people in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EAt the last election, 19,000 people\u2014equivalent to the population of Queenstown\u2014tried to vote, and they were prevented by this totally obscure, arbitrary rule. That was just the people who tried to vote. All the people who stayed home because they\u2019d run out of time\u2014that is the health of our democracy at stake. It may seem like it\u2019s just a formality and people should just get themselves in order and do it, but the idea is that it should be possible for everyone to vote on election day. It should be possible for everyone to pop into a voting station and not have to travel specifically to a particular place in the middle of their busy lives. Voting is for everyone, and this bill tries to make it more possible for more New Zealanders to engage in our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ENow, if we\u2019re going to look at constitutional conventions in terms of the way that electoral law is made, as the Opposition has constantly referred to, we do want to take party politics out of substantive electoral reform. That\u2019s why we have an Electoral Commission. That\u2019s why the Electoral Commission, in 2012, conducted a thorough consultation, two-step consultation, with thousands of New Zealanders engaged. It made recommendations to reform our MMP system, and yet that side of the House buried those recommendations. They had an opportunity to do it the way they say it\u2019s meant to be done, and those were substantive changes. Why were they buried? Because the National Party needed to do a dirty deal with ACT to prop up its bare majority Government, and part of those recommendations were that the electorate entry into Parliament should be abolished, because it is unfair and it is undemocratic. So when our independent system for electoral reform was engaged, the National Party didn\u2019t like the result and they buried it. Now that we\u2019re making it easier for people to vote, they\u2019re upset. So I do agree that electoral reform should be done in a way that is fair and that isn\u2019t led by party politics, but that can never be said of reform that actually engages more people in our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EI would like to see, however\u2014and perhaps this is the National Party saying that they would now support it\u2014the implementation of the MMP review recommendations, and I think that I do want to talk about this bill as a first step to electoral reform in New Zealand, because making our democracy more accessible has to go beyond just these technical changes, as important as they are. So I would like to see the Government pick up my member\u2019s bill implementing the MMP review recommendations. I would like us, in a further step, to look at the way that political donations and the transparency around those work in our democracy. I would like more New Zealanders to have access to their democracy in a way that\u2019s not impeded by their lack of ability to donate hundreds of thousands of dollars to political parties, and I\u2019d like us all to know who is in fact donating to our political parties. We do want to see an end to political interference from abroad but also political interference by big money. We do want to see everyone be able to vote, as the Supreme Court has told us we must do, by abolishing the ban on prisoner voting, and we do want to see a change so that those who qualify for the M\u0101ori roll are able to change rolls at any time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo this is a first step. It is about accessibility to our system. It\u2019s about an open government and open democracy for all on equal terms, and for that I do commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022b80e4edc11e648a59dea415dc145099b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b80e4edc11e648a59dea415dc145099b\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to speak on the Electoral Amendment Bill. I would like to speak on six different aspects of the bill that we find objectionable in this House, all referring to the same-day enrolment provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut let me get out of the way first, as others have said on the side\u2014for the sake of the record\u2014that there are positive changes in this bill that we do support. Accessibility to the act of voting, as part of the democratic participation that we all believe in, should be encouraged, to the extent that that doesn\u2019t allow the manipulation of the system and the voting. So that much we can and do support, so I state that clearly up front for the record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for the provisions relating to same-day enrolment, though, it\u2019s important to note the following half-dozen points\u2014six of the best, if I may say. I\u2019ll be going through each of those in turn but just setting out fairly initially: first, just to understand, I\u2019ll be talking about the fact that these are very different things, the act of enrolment versus the act of voting for a particular political party and particular candidates; second, the fact that it\u2019s currently an offence not to be enrolled but that doesn\u2019t apply to the act of voting; third, that no one should be a judge in their own matter, so that will go to the applicability of these rules for the 2020 election that the Government of the day is setting in place, perhaps for their own benefit; fourth, the effects of uncertainty caused by delay of the election result being known; fifth, the breaching of conventions in the electoral law space, as relevant to this particular bill; and, sixth and finally, the failure of the analogy that\u2019s been made by the Green member Golriz Ghahraman in relation to how this might relate to trends or phenomena in the US that she\u2019s identified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo first then, on the subject of enrolment on voting day, they are two different things in our electoral system. Of course, there\u2019s a connection whereby it\u2019s only by being enrolled that one can vote, but enrolment is an act of participation in democracy. It\u2019s an act that legitimises a citizen or other person who\u2019s entitled to vote, and, as such, it stands alone from the particular act of voting in which one is obviously exercising one\u2019s judgment or preference at a particular place and time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThis can be seen clearly in what I\u2019ve observed even in my relatively short period\u2014the couple of elections that I\u2019ve stood in: one unsuccessfully; one successfully, ultimately\u2014where candidates arrive at schools and give speeches at election time, often as part of a debate panel. What I think is really positive is often on these occasions we have candidates from all parties emphasising to the young people the importance of being engaged, the importance of participating and exercising that right to vote, whoever they might vote for. Of course, each of the candidates takes the opportunity to seek the party vote and the electorate vote for themselves, but that\u2019s almost secondary to the very responsible message that\u2019s often given to young people simply to get involved, to be enrolled and to vote, and to participate in whatever way, in terms of voting preference, they might choose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThis then takes me to my second point, which I alluded to before in passing, which is that it\u2019s an offence not to be enrolled in New Zealand but it\u2019s not an offence not to vote\u2014whereas, obviously, in other countries that is the case. But here in New Zealand it\u2019s a choice that we have to turn up to the ballot box or not as we wish, but to be enrolled is to be a participatory member of the democracy in which we live, and it allows, for example, for voting in referenda and in local government elections and so on at times other than in general elections for the Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, in fact, implicitly, counterintuitive as it might seem, it is encouraging non-compliance with this law\u2014this requirement that actually applies to us all, all the time, to be enrolled, to be on the electoral roll\u2014and so for a whole three years within a term, other than election day itself, this is something that we need to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWe have, by my calculation, roughly speaking, 1,094 days in which we can do that, currently, and one day in which we cannot. For the sake of spelling out my back-of-the-envelope calculation, that would be exactly three years between elections, not including leap years and so forth. So, anyway, the point is, really, that it\u2019s about 1,000 days that you can enrol to vote and only one that you can\u2019t. So to be encouraging those who can\u2019t be bothered to enrol to vote on 1,000 days, why they should be able to rock up on the last day and complicate things for everyone else seems to me an extraordinary thing that the Government is proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy third point is about the fact that it\u2019s proposed these changes will come into effect for the 2020 election. So it\u2019s the Government of the day setting rules that will apply to itself in a way that enables them to\u2014well, I would characterise it as an unseemly rush by an unholy alliance. Others might quibble on the characterisation of that, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230ff312ba9da4e259239f3e4c49325f6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member. The time has come for the House to adjourn for the dinner break. The House will resume at 7.30 this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234ed483927104a19810987d53cf5ec8e\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I resume my call on the Electoral Amendment Bill. For your benefit, Madam Speaker, and any of those who weren\u2019t glued to their television immediately prior to the dinner break, I\u2019ll just recap by saying briefly, if I may, that, first of all, we support most of the provisions of the bill\u2014certainly those that make sensible amendments to allow greater accessibility, and my colleague the Hon Dr Nick Smith has outlined those, leading the charge on this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s some pretty sensible stuff around voting places and so forth. But what I did set out before the dinner break was some areas in which we have reservations, to put it mildly, regarding the enrolment on voting day provision. I touched briefly on the difference between the act of enrolment versus the act of voting\u2014one being a democratic right and indeed responsibility, as a matter of course, for which there are a thousand days available, roughly speaking, between elections, as opposed to the one day on which you can\u2019t currently enrol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI was just getting on to the matter of how a person shouldn\u2019t be the judge in their own cause. In this country, we tend to like rugby analogies, so we talk about the \u201Cscrewing of the scrum\u201D, but once upon a time, I suppose, you might have said in Latin: nemo iudex in causa sua\u2014no one should be the judge in his or her own cause. So it is that we\u2019ve got the Government of the day, today, this Government, setting in place rules that will apply in seeking its own re-election, effectively\u2014the cynics might say\u2014as well as setting out the rules of the game by which all players must play. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy next point was around the uncertainty and the delay that will be generated following election day itself by the need for the processing of enrolments as well as the processing\u2014that is, the counting\u2014of votes. So a further 10 days following the election, we understand from official advice, will be caused by such a move. The practical effects of that in terms of uncertainty and confidence of the nation have been spelt out, including by the Hon Tim Macindoe, to which I would add that anything that gives the public less confidence in MMP than it already enjoys, in particular around the predictability or otherwise of election results, is no good thing and we should tread very carefully lest we further erode confidence in our democratic institutions and systems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy final two points regard the breaching of electoral law conventions in the sense of having the Opposition buy-in. That\u2019s not just a convention for its own sake\u2014it\u2019s sort of a constitutional nicety\u2014but rather a very practical measure that\u2019s likely, when observed, to ensure that law, going forward, that operates to the benefit ultimately of all the people in the democracy and all the parties as well will be robust and remain in place for elections and generations to come, rather than being the plaything of one Government of the day and leaving open the possibility that the next Government or the next Parliament, I suppose in three years\u2019 time, would have a different view altogether, and so we would end up with a regime changing in respect of electoral law every three or six or nine years, as the case may be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFinally, on a slightly lighter note, the Green Party speaker on the bill so far has talked about voter suppression tactics in the US, rather darkly. But I\u2019d say that the analogy with the United States of America is not apt. That is a country that thinks that baseball is an interesting sport, thinks that Pop-Tarts are a nutritious or delicious food\u2014I\u2019d probably take issue with even the \u201Cfood\u201D bit, let alone the \u201Cdelicious\u201D bit\u2014and that the word \u201Caluminium\u201D has only four syllables. So we can\u2019t rely on looking overseas to the US for trends in informing our own electoral conventions. We have those already. We have a good democracy. We shouldn\u2019t trifle with it in this way, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002273037eb5a73340da96cc2bb7dd9e37d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273037eb5a73340da96cc2bb7dd9e37d0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call the Hon Clare Curran.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u002255024da66f044a52a2868fe7efcec4a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255024da66f044a52a2868fe7efcec4a5\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. In a couple of months, in October, I will be attending, along with a number of my parliamentary women colleagues, a breakfast function for the Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians, celebrating the 100th anniversary of women being able to stand for Parliament in New Zealand, which is a pretty amazing thing to be celebrating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223f1c179fef64f01b3571ae9a6f6eddb\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a5eca602f13453aa3ab841ff01bb422\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: It is. So what better demonstration is there of a Government\u2019s true commitment to improving and strengthening our democracy than a bill before this Parliament which enfranchises more voters in this country and enables them to participate in our democracy? So I\u2019m actually pretty proud to be standing here today celebrating the fact that this Parliament, in 2019, has finally got round to passing legislation to enable more people to vote, to be able to access our voting system in New Zealand. That is truly something to be proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI wanted to take the conversation up a little bit, because there\u2019s been lots of high dudgeon thrown around in this debate and in the debate around the previous piece of legislation, and the crux of the Opposition\u2019s argument against this bill seems to rest on a constitutional crisis of some description and a lack of consultation. You know, it\u2019s a valid thing if it\u2019s true. But I do say, particularly to the member Dr Nick Smith, who has been running this argument on this bill and the previous bill, that he really does need to get his facts right and do his homework. His high dudgeon act is just that: it is just an act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI wanted to actually provide the House tonight with some clear evidence of that, because Dr Smith\u2014and he was followed by Chris Bishop\u2014came to the House this afternoon and pronounced that there had been no consultation on this bill and there was a constitutionally appalling situation as a result. \u201COutrage\u201D was the word that seemed to be used; it had a lot of currency and was used a lot. I want to refer Dr Smith\u2014and he\u2019s been sitting on that Justice Committee and he had a few criticisms of that select committee about the number of chairs, etc.\u2014to a letter that was written by the Minister, the justice Minister, Andrew Little on 4 December last year to the select committee, and it\u2019s headed \u201CAmendments to the Electoral Act 1993\u201D, and I\u2019ll\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022318e15b7e8f64f4caeeb4f0fcab2c3c2\u0022\u003EAnahila Kanongata\u2019a-Suisuiki\u003C/span\u003E: December?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c013108571d4a27ab5c90778b4d6438\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: December 2018. \u201CThis is to advise you that I\u2019m considering proposing an Electoral Amendment Bill be included on the Government\u2019s 2019 legislative programme. The bill would progress minor or technical amendments to electoral law, for example, to help manage the logistical requirements of general elections by making voting and voting places more accessible.\u201D He went on to outline: \u201Cremoving the prohibition on designating a licensed premises selling alcohol as a polling place, enabling ballots to be counted away from the polling place, enabling the special vote declaration to be able to be treated as an application to enrol or update enrolment details. I have also asked my officials to look at enrolment on election day and whether this could be made available for the 2020 election. In order for any changes to the Electoral Act or the electoral regulations to be implemented for the 2020 election, they\u2019d need to be made by the end of 2019. For this reason I need to develop these changes alongside rather than after your committee\u2019s inquiry into the 2017 general election. If there is a bill, and depending on the progress of your inquiry, there may be an opportunity to add some of your recommended legislative changes during the parliamentary process.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EDr Smith, that letter was at your select committee. There was no response. There was consultation; you were reached out to. You didn\u2019t respond\u2014not you, Madam Speaker. I rest the case that\u2014I\u2019m sorry, but it\u2019s a straw man argument. You can\u2019t argue there has been no consultation. This is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e657e69ec4e4ad0a06522d8868ae8ac\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s the letter addressed to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8b1f4c5c3784022a15c3bdce2bb7815\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: It was addressed to the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267be6cca506946b28391380e6c3e404a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, but the member\u2019s time has expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u00227bd8b79db1404c8bbc2609ba8fcbdc73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bd8b79db1404c8bbc2609ba8fcbdc73\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek leave to table the letter that was sent to the Justice Committee on 4 December 2018\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002235dab1a77d3e48edb054f859c12e1bba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235dab1a77d3e48edb054f859c12e1bba\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think we do know the document that you are reading from. I trust it has been released from the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ba1de7295d243c48b5d2a27e8b90bc3\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it clearly hasn\u2019t been read by the members on that side. I seek leave to table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225cb4d8f8e7e4d63ba64c98174a0c08d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is seeking leave to table that document from the select committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f1f13227fd1404e87dffbe4c0f650be\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: A point of clarification\u2014could the member clarify for the House that the letter was to the Labour Party chair of the select committee? It was not a letter to consult with the National Party. Could the member clarify who was the letter addressed to\u2014which member of Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220916d6974aa84e82ad4555a8422bbf32\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think if we put the leave and the letter is tabled, we can all have a look and see that. Is there any objection to that being tabled? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdfe44a1f51c4e1da34e5b2a514bb1bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdfe44a1f51c4e1da34e5b2a514bb1bd\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek the leave of the House to table the minutes of the Justice Committee on the electoral law inquiry at the time that this letter was considered, and, specifically, the issues around the extension of the terms of reference of the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4d1978e66a34fee9c74712bea311063\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just take a bit of advice here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022647d97d05ca44d8eaf57d4f9db22c770\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, could I be of some assistance? Because I had previously sought the advice of the Clerk. It is normal that both the minutes and the letter that you\u2019ve just sought leave for would remain confidential to the select committee until the select committee inquiry into the election had been concluded, of which this item of correspondence\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a40a6fa68064528b060c5eca6f0d2bc\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But the issue is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3da449f86fe43ee828b640a41256518\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Having made the decision to put the leave to the House on the letter that has been sought by my colleague Clare Curran, it is only fair that you also put leave to the House for the minutes on the same issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa53e9e16ac4426698f849c8ed6f391e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa53e9e16ac4426698f849c8ed6f391e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was just checking on the status of the minutes. They are available to all members through the committee system. Tabling them in the House\u2014but they\u2019re not publicly available. Anyway, it\u2019s in the hands of the House. The House has decided, as Dr Smith points out, to table the letter. Is there any objection to the leave being sought to table the minutes? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022 data-id=\u00226ccc0da70ebe47adb62a3fccd29431f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ccc0da70ebe47adb62a3fccd29431f1\u0022\u003EDENISE LEE (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. What an extraordinary last few minutes we\u2019ve had. Objection to the tabling of the minutes\u2014it\u2019s almost like they want to hide something. Let me be very simple and clear: this bill is all about the Government cherry-picking electoral law changes that will improve its own chance of election in 2020\u2014nothing more straightforward than that. The fact that they\u2019re wanting to hide some very basic minutes does, absolutely, make you wonder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EWe were not consulted, as the Opposition, on these electoral law changes. When we were in Government, we consulted with all parties on electoral law changes. That was how we ran things. That was our business as usual. However, we\u2019re experiencing something entirely different, and for those listening and watching tonight, we\u2019re experiencing something unprecedented in terms of the way that we deal with electoral law changes here in New Zealand. This is the third electoral law bill by the Government that has not been consulted with us, as the Opposition\u2014no conversation whatsoever. Here we are, tonight\u2014the third piece of legislation. Now, how did we find out about these pending changes? A question at an Estimates hearing on the Budget. That\u2019s how we found out about what was coming down the pipeline, and finally, many weeks later, here we are tonight. It\u2019s a dangerous precedent that the Government is choosing to set, deliberately choosing to set. Just how precarious are New Zealand\u2019s electoral laws? That\u2019s a legitimate question: just how precarious are our laws? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003ESo I want to talk to, with my short call, clause 4, which amends section 60 of the principal Act, and clause 11, which amends section 139. So it\u2019s, of course, allowing for same-day enrolment and also extending the latest day for return of the writ. The two go hand in hand. Last year\u2019s election was 23 September and the Government was announced 19 October. That was a total of 26 days\u20143\u00BD long weeks\u2014to form New Zealand\u2019s Government. The Government was still running under our watch\u2014caretaking, as you will\u2014but now this bill allows for a much longer period, 10 extra days, before the return of the writ. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fcc45486b924a0a923baf4a78a56472\u0022\u003EKanwaljit Singh Bakshi\u003C/span\u003E: How long? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022533721d91b7446a0b871d12a3e3f8e91\u0022\u003EDENISE LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Ten extra days to form a Government. Now, I\u2019ve got some questions for the Government as the proponents of this bill. I\u2019d like them to answer: had they thought through the perception of MMP and what 10 extra days will do? Let\u2019s think about the atmosphere that we experienced last year. Business confidence\u2014what does that do for business confidence? Public Service\u2014how are they impacted by another 10 extra days for a formation of Government? Public perception\u2014let\u2019s talk about voters themselves, public perceptions of politicians, wanting them just to get on with it, not wanting another Rt Hon Winston Peters wait-and-see. Even the international media were wondering about when we would wait and see the Government formed, here in New Zealand\u2014a party of 7 percent support but 100 percent of the power. Do we want that sort of protracted, lengthened scenario again? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be practical too. With same-day enrolment, what about queues on polling day? What about the process of enrolling? [Interruption] The Government\u2019s laughing. I\u2019m just going to take one booth, for example. I invite them to come to the Ellerslie War Memorial Hall, one of the highest polling numbers booths in my electorate, Maungakiekie. On polling day, you could not get in there. The numbers in a very busy little village\u2014you could not get in there on election day. Now the Government\u2019s pushing forward same-day enrolment. There will be a practical impact for this. It will also change the nature of campaigning on election day. We know we\u2019re not allowed to campaign, but what about passive forms of communication or campaigning on election day? What can we expect with that\u2014a new style of E-day communications? What will happen and what form will that take? Where is the incentive to enrol in advance now? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EThese are issues that are legitimate. We have grave concerns and we want to stand against a dangerous precedent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00228134ba73b94540818f8f0ce9e52f10c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228134ba73b94540818f8f0ce9e52f10c8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This next call is a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u00227b590e335f07496892ede24a7fbd4d22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b590e335f07496892ede24a7fbd4d22\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (Botany):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ve been listening to much of the debate on this bill. It seems one side says more New Zealanders will be enfranchised by this bill, and the other side says the process is bad. Many of the questions that have been raised in speeches are legitimately ones that a select committee could inquire into. I have to say, my experience in this House has been that when one side criticises only the process, it pretty much means there is no depth of argument against what is being proposed. It\u2019s actually a very weak set of arguments to simply go, \u201CThe process is bad\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003ECan we just boil it down for the House? Let\u2019s boil it down. Effectively, this bill will mean more New Zealanders have the opportunity to vote. Is anyone actually brave enough to stand up in the House and say, \u201CWe shouldn\u2019t have a bill which would allow more people to be able to vote.\u201D? The reality is some people were unable to vote last election and they should have been able to vote. Yes, the process could have been better, but that\u2019s not a good reason for opposing a bill or standing up in the House and spending speech after speech opposing a piece of legislation. Those issues that have been raised around process and around details should be looked at at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that has been debated as well was the fact that there is still an inquiry going on, under way. The inquiry going on, under way\u2014the Minister referred to it in question time and says it\u2019s taking too long. I\u2019ve seen there\u2019s been other arguments about who\u2019s in charge of the inquiry and why has it taken so long. The reality is it\u2019s almost been two years since the last election was held and we still don\u2019t have a report back in this Parliament about possible changes. The select committee does need to hurry up. The select committee does need to come back. In fact, if the select committee had\u2019ve come back earlier, then we probably wouldn\u2019t have these process debates around who did something without consulting the other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThe other issue that was raised in other speeches\u2014I know Golriz Ghahraman raised it, and I think some of the National members raised it too\u2014was the issue around what the committee\u2019s looking at alongside the types of issues in the inquiry that are also contained in this bill, and that\u2019s the elements around foreign interference. We actually should have a piece of legislation right now that deals with those matters. The select committee needs to increase the speed at which it considers its inquiry into foreign interference because we must have legislation around those issues as well. I think, actually, the select committee should be empowered to consider issues alongside this bill at the same time that may be considered in the realm of foreign interference. It\u2019s not acceptable that we may end up in a position later this term where the House has a report from the select committee and it does not have enough time to act on it. It would be an appalling set of circumstances if the Justice Committee was to report back on the election inquiry that contained recommendations around foreign interference and everyone go \u201COh, we don\u2019t have enough time to consider those matters.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EI think this House should give the Justice Committee, by way of this process and this bill, the ability and the power to consider issues alongside the other elements in this bill that relate to foreign interference, specifically around election donations. This bill does talk about supporting the effective conduct of future elections. It does talk about the security of our elections. Those are important issues, but security and conduct of elections is not solely around who can vote and how they can vote; it\u2019s also around how political parties deal with those types of issues. So later on I intend to seek the leave of the House to be able to move an instruction to the Justice Committee. It is not possible for a member to move an instruction without seeking leave\u2014only the Minister can move an instruction to a select committee\u2014but I think it\u2019s fundamentally important that the Justice Committee is given the opportunity to consider those issues around election donations alongside these wider issues around elections. So at the appropriate time, I will seek leave to be able to move an instruction. That instruction that I will move, if given leave, will read \u201CI move, that it be an instruction to the Justice Committee that it consider and, if it thinks fit, recommend amendments relating to election donations.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s fundamentally important that if we are to have proper consideration and time available for the Justice Committee to do a thorough job around changes in the sphere of foreign interference and in the sphere of closing down election donations, they have an early opportunity to do it. There is a parliamentary majority in this House to change election donation laws. Parties in this House have said they want to ban foreign donations. So by allowing an instruction to be moved, the Justice Committee will be able to do that work, and I\u2019ll attempt to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226107c6d9d1504e7d9072409ca72920b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226107c6d9d1504e7d9072409ca72920b7\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I\u2019m very much looking forward to putting right many of the quite false claims and insinuations, particularly those around the Justice Committee, of which I\u2019m a very proud member. Just to put things in perspective, the justice select committee has been a very, very busy committee, having considered 19 bills in this term alone. Of course, one of those bills was the End of Life Choice Bill, which required the justice select committee to hear thousands of submissions, written and otherwise. The Justice Committee sat over 65 percent of the time that all select committees sat added together, just to put things in perspective. So it\u2019s a very effective and efficient committee getting through its work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBut some of the almost implied criticisms of our committee, including one from Dr Nick Smith, who talked about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bb97c50f9d14d1fa51d927275050756\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can we talk about the bill, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb8683ad71264d3889bec7736dc027c1\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am. This is a very important part of the bill, because we actually talked about\u2014one of the criticisms of the bill was that the justice select committee, in fact, through having had a large number of chairs, somehow was rendered incapable of dealing with this issue. Au contraire, actually, Dr Smith himself, who the day that the most important material was being heard in relation to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1dd29210a0d4616a1a34019f811b2f3\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but we don\u2019t need to know about the processes in the select committee. We are actually on a first reading of a bill before the House, so the member has only five minutes. He should be able to speak to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cd2e65e4c924a52a8753d4f8d0de8d0\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Thank you. I will speak to the bill, of course. This bill is democracy in action, as democratic as you could possibly see. Anyone with any knowledge of elections around the world will know what happened in 2000 in the United States and Florida. Through the actions of the Republican Party and those who organise them, there was a large number of people disenfranchised, which enabled one of the Bush family to win\u2014Jeb Bush, I understand\u2014and that actually swayed the election. So that is living proof as to why it is so important that everyone gets the opportunity to vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve seen evolution of our electoral system, our voting system, MMP. What you\u2019re seeing on this side of the House is an understanding of how MMP works\u2014how it can work. Many of the speakers opposite have talked about the negotiations around the formation of a Government. Well, on this side, we did negotiate, we did form a Government, and a very effective Government that despite the predictions from many on the other side that it would be all over by Christmas is still getting stronger by the day. That strength is the type of issues that are being addressed in this bill, basically, around the ability to ensure that more people are able to vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EIf you look at the main part of this bill, the most important part about it, and that which has attracted much discussion from the Opposition, it\u2019s a fear that by allowing people to enrol and vote on election day, somehow democracy is going to be made a mockery of\u2014that somehow we are entering into a non-democratic process. Well, that couldn\u2019t be further from the truth. What will happen as a result of this is that those people who\u2014and as we know with elections, as we get nearer to election day, and while pre-voting has been the new feature, pre-voting has been an effective feature. But the reality of it\u2014and I\u2019ve heard people here speak about the nostalgia of election day, the nicety of having morning tea, digging the garden, and heading down and voting on election day, something that I think we all agree is something that should be absolutely available to every New Zealander. Now, as a result of this, it will be. It\u2019ll be available to those who for various reasons, distraction\u2014we know that people don\u2019t read newspapers these days, and we know through social media the sheer difficulty of actually getting in front of people. But, of course, it\u2019s very hard to avoid that on election day. You can imagine, whether it be the sports club or various other places: \u201CHave you voted?\u201D \u201CNo, I haven\u2019t.\u201D \u201CHave you enrolled?\u201D \u201CNo.\u201D \u201CWell, you can now do both.\u201D Welcome to the new democracy. Welcome to a new world that is creating a wonderful Government like this Government that I\u2019m proud to be part of with our coalition and supply partners. Part of the next step along is to make sure that New Zealanders get to participate. So I thoroughly recommend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc4b16fbbcf44e9ca6fac7b5f2907dae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc4b16fbbcf44e9ca6fac7b5f2907dae\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be talking on this bill. There\u2019s been a lot of debate and obviously very polarising views on the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe first thing I just want to talk about is this extraordinary event that we\u2019ve just witnessed before with the Hon Clare Curran wishing to table a letter written to the select committee. Whilst I know of many members\u2014or all members of the House will know that until something comes out of the select committee, it is confidential to the committee. Therefore, it\u2019s a very strong parliamentary issue around releasing that information before it has been released by the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI just think it is a very dangerous precedent for a member to be doing such a thing. I\u2019m not quite sure why the Hon Clare Curran decided to do that but that\u2019s a very, very important precedent that I think has been set by the member, and no doubt with the view of trying to reinforce the view that she made in her speech, which was that the Minister, the Hon Andrew Little, had consulted with the National Party on these wide-ranging reforms. Time will tell whether, in fact, that letter does support that position, but all I can say is that from our perspective and from National\u2019s perspective, it is clear that there has been no adequate consultation or even acceptable level of consultation on what is absolutely a fundamental issue of democracy. And of course everyone in this House wants to see that democracy is maintained but also wants to make sure that in doing so\u2014in the process around how people cast their votes on election day and how those votes are counted, it is absolutely essential that that system is protected and nurtured so that we do end up with the right outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course, this bill has these three elements. It\u2019s got the issue around voting rights\u2014and I will return to that shortly\u2014but also about where voting can take place, and that again is quite a significant issue. I think I just want to really say the first thing is that this issue around voting and enabling people to enrol on the day of the election and to cast their vote in an election is a perverse outcome, because in recent times the Electoral Commission, which does a good job, has been driving people towards voting early\u2014enrolling early, voting early. We know that with enrolling statistics, people are actually less inclined to enrol as they might have done in previous years, and the stats are showing an increase\u2014about 7.4 percent at the last election\u2014that did not enrol. And what we\u2019ve also seen is that with the advance voting, that has led to a significant increase in votes being handled much earlier than election day, thereby dealing with the issue of congestion but also giving the rights to people to cast their vote when they wanted to, at the time that it was convenient to them, because often for many the election day is not a convenient time, particularly with many people working these days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo this issue about allowing people to vote and enrol on the same day, on election day, I think is an incredibly significant step. I think the first thing around that is that that is something that should be talked about at length and agreed by Parliament; not by the Government consulting amongst itself but with all parties\u2014all parties of this Parliament\u2014so that we have a basis not just for this election in 2020 but successive elections, so that we all have comfort with the process that has been proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut the other thing, I think\u2014and I\u2019m just referring here to the regulatory impact statement, which I found a fascinating document, because here is an analytical review of these proposals. I think the issue\u2014and it states here that the electors can still apply to enrol until midnight the night before an election and there has been a noticeable acceleration in enrolments during the advance voting period. In 2017, the Electoral Commission processed 200,000 enrolment transactions during the advance voting period, and 94,000 of these were made in the last three days. And this is what\u2019s happening: we\u2019re seeing more people voting earlier, but allowing people to vote right up to the last moment and turn up without having enrolled is something that will drive election day considerably in terms of making it much more congested. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement looked at four aspects in terms of assessing whether, in fact, this is a good thing or not. One was reduced participation barriers, and I think we all can get the concept that if you did allow this, it would improve participation. It talked to administration feasibility, consistency, and cost administration. The first thing it notes around allowing election day enrolment is that it states that, \u201CAllowing election day enrolment conflicts with the current messaging to the public that people should enrol early.\u201D So that, as I said before, has been a hallmark of recent elections\u2014trying to get people to enrol early. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIt also increases the likelihood of a number of special votes being issued, and we know the issue round this. One stat is that they estimate that it will take 10 times as long to go through the process of enrolling someone and also then allowing them to vote than would otherwise be the case. And that, of course, is on election day when it\u2019s the busiest time. It would also slow the issuing of voting papers and casting of votes on election day. And I think those are pretty significant issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIn terms of the implementation, and here I quote, \u201CThe operational process changes needed to enable election day enrolment are substantial,\u201D\u2014this is in the regulatory impact statement\u2014\u201Cwith important implications for voting place services,\u201D. And from what I understand, the Justice Committee is working its way through the review of the 2017 election\u2014and it happens after every election, and, of course, it would be looking into these issues\u2014and this is the committee that\u2019s been tasked to making sure that democracy does continue to work as well as possible, and somehow these proposals have jumped over the top of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other aspect they note: \u201CThe Commission estimates that election day enrolment could add as many as 100,000 election day enrolment transactions\u201D, and it goes on to say that that would require 2,800 additional staff and an additional cost of $13.4 million. And so this is not an insignificant issue. This is a substantial administrative issue around making sure that the veracity of those who are voting is protected and we have the outcome we want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think what\u2019s missing in the debate for me is that we haven\u2019t had a clear enunciation of why this is necessary. What is the democracy issue that we\u2019re trying to deal with that would drive this change? And even if there was one\u2014which I haven\u2019t heard enunciated properly, but even if there was one\u2014I would be waiting for the Justice Committee, who\u2019s heard submissions on it, who are in consideration or deliberation on this matter at the moment, and who have had the time since September last year to review all this and come to a firm view on what is the best going forward. And that is what happens after every election. They are the ones best charged with looking at this issue. So we\u2019ve got a process that has come in over top of that select committee process and imposed this bill in the House without waiting for the select committee to finish its job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think, if you\u2019re talking about democracy, that in itself is a very clear demonstration of how not to do things. It is only literally a couple of months away before that select committee will be reporting back to the House. We should be waiting for that outcome. That\u2019s what New Zealanders require of MPs\u2014to make sure that we do protect democracy\u2014and this is cutting across it because it does not have the unanimous support of this House, and that is a very disappointing situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00228028567fde6045ac9b0274ad53268b7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228028567fde6045ac9b0274ad53268b7e\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. First and foremost, I would like to respond to the point made by Andrew Bayly in terms of questioning what the main problem or the main issue concerning democracy in New Zealand is that this bill needs to address. And the answer to that question for Mr Bayly is that in 2017, 19,000 New Zealanders turned up to vote on election day who were not able to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis is a Government who\u2019s focused on tackling the big issues. This is a Government that\u2019s prepared to make sure that every New Zealander gets a fair go, and that means every New Zealander gets a vote. Whether they\u2019re a shift worker, whether they\u2019ve got five kids, whether they didn\u2019t know it was happening, or whatever the reason might be, this is a Government that favours all New Zealanders having the opportunity to vote, and we see that as being good democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like to run through a few of the arguments that we\u2019ve heard from National members tonight as to why New Zealanders should not be able to vote on election day. May I say I have been underwhelmed by these arguments, and I\u2019m going to run through them quickly. I\u2019ve got some favourites. The one that\u2019s coming in at the top\u2014I\u2019ll do our top five of stupid arguments as to why New Zealanders should not be able to vote on election day\u2014and the No. 1 silly reason that\u2019s been presented tonight by the National Party is that it takes too long and that there will be additional days required to count the votes of the 19,000 people that turn up. That will be such an impediment to democracy that we should just not let them vote in the first place\u2014love that one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe second one, the No. 2 stupid reason raised by the National Party today as to why New Zealanders should not be able to vote on election day, is that the uncertainty of the election turnout\u2014which was raised by Mr Penk tonight\u2014would mean that we wouldn\u2019t know what would happen on election day if we let all these people vote and we might get a surprise over the outcome of the election. That one really baffles me. I don\u2019t understand the logic behind that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe No. 4 stupid reason as to why New Zealanders should not be allowed to vote on election day is that the queues will be too long. There will be so many people just wanting to get in there and have a vote that we won\u2019t be able to handle it. There will be halls, schools, and malls overwhelmed by democracy. We won\u2019t be able to cope with the fact that people are so engaged with their political system that the whole country is going to shut down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe No. 5 stupid reason raised by the National Party tonight as to why New Zealanders should not be allowed to vote on election day is that, in fact, people won\u2019t enrol early. People won\u2019t enrol early. It will be a disincentive. We\u2019ll all just sit at home watching Netflix for two weeks instead of getting out and enrolling to vote, and even if we do turn up on election day and enrol and vote, somehow that\u2019s a loss to our country\u2019s democracy because we didn\u2019t do it a few weeks beforehand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo I would like to come to the point that there have been no substantial issues raised as to why this bill is an impediment to democracy or is an impediment to being able to do anything. The only reason that\u2019s been raised tonight\u2014which I thought was very interesting\u2014is that the National Party members don\u2019t support this bill going through for the next election, but it might be OK for the next one. So it\u2019s: \u201CDon\u2019t rush us. It\u2019s a bit scary. We\u2019re just getting our heads around it, and if we do it next election and we have a chat about it, we\u2019ll feel fine and we\u2019ll support it then. We\u2019re up for democracy a bit more in another three years\u2019 time.\u201D I don\u2019t understand that one, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI would like to remind the members opposite that in December of last year, they were well-informed by the Minister of Justice at that select committee that there would be a bill coming that made the amendments that have been tabled and put down in this House today, and at that point in time no issues were raised. Not one concern was raised. We have had high drama raised and some mock and feigned excitement about the fact that this has been a travesty in the face of justice and it has been a complete constitutional outrage, when, really, underneath it all there is a fear that New Zealanders will get out and vote more than they do now. That threatens their status quo and it concerns them that they won\u2019t maintain what has been going on for a long time, and that is that not all New Zealanders get a voice and get a vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe are very focused on this side of the House on making sure that we do give people those opportunities so that they can enrol. Young voters, if they\u2019re not aware of it, can go into the shopping mall on the day and go in and take their vote. They can go in when they see the queues, the TV, and the excitement. They will see and sense that vibe. They can go and take that opportunity with that ability\u2014that civic right to have a voice and that civic right to vote\u2014and that is what is missing from this debate. There have been zero substantive reasons provided by those members opposite as to why New Zealanders should not be able to vote on election day. I challenge anyone on that side of the House to come up with one decent reason, because tonight that has not happened in this House, and that is why I am proud to see this bill. I commend a bill that promotes democracy in New Zealand to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228dfb1c3b27784b01956a3c68a10cbee1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Electoral Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000587\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e945ccf23dc4488f90af07fad274f613\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e945ccf23dc4488f90af07fad274f613\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (Botany):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House to move a motion without notice instructing the Justice Committee to consider out-of-scope amendments or amendments relating to electoral donations. That motion would read: I move that it would be an instruction to the Justice Committee that it consider and, if it thinks fit, recommend amendments relating to electoral donations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00226aa3ad923ec7442db0344e8825f9ae84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226aa3ad923ec7442db0344e8825f9ae84\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So the members have heard that leave has been sought. Is there any objection to that? There is objection, so it is not granted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022505a690e41be424eb22c4c8f28a188dd\u0022\u003EMisuse of Drugs Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002288aedcdaad654ba29eb407a2f29fad2d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f058ceef42e469fb2faf8ed702fc324\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00228e92215df7754c2f855d251920b1fa92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e92215df7754c2f855d251920b1fa92\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E This bill makes three key changes. The first is that it will classify AMB-FUBINACA and 5F-ADB as class A drugs. It also affirms the existing police discretion for personal possession and use drug offences, and it also enables temporary class drug orders to be issued to better control emerging and potentially harmful substances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe bill itself is a key step in putting in place a health-based approach to drug use, recognising that those people caught in the web of addiction are more likely in most cases to need a therapeutic approach when the wider public interest is taken into account, bearing in mind that, of course, there will be times when it is more appropriate for the police to prosecute if they deem the public interest falls that way. The increase in opportunities for health and social services to be provided is something that the Government is firmly focused on and, indeed, has invested heavily in in the recent Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI just want to say briefly something about each of those three key changes and Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 288, which I have brought before the committee. Firstly, the classification of the two aforementioned drugs, AMB-FUBINACA and 5F-ADB\u2014these drugs are a major health problem. Since 2017, in June, there have been a total of 50 to 55 deaths provisionally linked to the use of these two dangerous synthetic drugs, and the bill simply classifies them as class A drugs to reflect the high risk of harm that these drugs cause. It gives the police and customs search and seizure powers greater than they otherwise would have, which means that they\u2019re able to disrupt supply and reduce the availability of these drugs. Now, these police powers are part of a health-based approach. Interrupting supply and manufacture is critical if you want to take a health-based approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe police discretion, the second thing that\u2019s involved here\u2014the bill specifies that when considering whether a prosecution is required in the public interest for drug possession and use, consideration should be given as to whether a therapeutic approach would be more beneficial. The SOP I\u2019m bringing to the House does then further add the words \u201Cto the public interest\u201D\u2014beneficial to the public interest\u2014and that is just to be absolutely clear. This is not about, when police are deciding whether or not to bring a prosecution, whether it\u2019s good for that individual, but they\u2019re looking at the wider public interest. There were some submissions to the select committee that seemed to assume that what was being meant there was a focus on the individual\u2019s personal interests\u2014who was the person caught as a user, caught in the web of addiction, and being brought to justice\u2014rather than looking at the wider public interest. I do want to thank, as we work through all these issues, the coalition and confidence and supply partners and the conversations we\u2019ve had. This particular clarification comes in consultation with our coalition partner, and I want to thank them for the constructive role they played in making sure we have this clear, and, of course, the strong push for a health-based approach is also firmly supported by the Green Party, and I want to acknowledge that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo the third thing that we\u2019re doing here is putting temporary drug class orders in place, which enables the Minister of the day to issue a drug order that, effectively, makes sure that these dangerous synthetic drugs, or any drugs, are classified as class C controlled drugs\u2014or treated the same, essentially\u2014for a period of 12 months. We know the drug market\u2014in particular, the synthetic drug market\u2014evolves rapidly, and we want to make sure that we\u2019re able to respond quickly to potentially harmful new synthetic drugs. Then the Minister must seek advice from the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs, which considers classification issues, and decide then whether and under what schedule the substances should be classified longer term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll leave my initial contribution there. I do think this is a good bill. It allows us to progress a health-based approach and strikes a balance, making sure that we are actually going harder on those peddling these very dangerous drugs\u2014the suppliers and the manufacturers\u2014than has previously been the case, to ensure the police have the search and seizure powers necessary, but it also looks at the public interest and whether it\u2019s sensible for those who are users to be offered a therapeutic approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022826c0a5c6c6a4a159807851b15987d78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022826c0a5c6c6a4a159807851b15987d78\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to take a call on the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill, which is slowly progressing its way through the House. I thank the Minister for the explanation and overview that he gave on this bill. I would like to ask the Minister a few questions, and I think it\u2019s important to go through these systematically. The first question I\u2019d like to discuss is in relation to the part of the bill which the National Party does support, and that is in relation to the increased penalties that are going to be put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287d79092d0c349c8bd8d02466cf90c84\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Punishment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c465eb3e91e47c4b8faa6dbf00ffc58\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CPunishment\u201D is what your confidence and supply agreement partner there calls it, Minister. So the question here is whether we support the increased penalty or reclassification of AMB-FUBINACA and 5F-ADB as class A drugs, which the National Party does support. The question that I do ask the Minister here is: why did he decide to use this process, the legislative process, to classify those two substances as class A drugs, and why did he not use his powers under the Misuse of Drugs Act to classify those drugs when he received advice, I think in April or May last year, that they should be classified as class A drugs? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo I guess the point that I\u2019m making here is that this issue has been before the House for quite some time. This issue was a matter which I brought to the House through a member\u2019s bill last year, which was supported by New Zealand First for the vast majority of its process through the House before they pulled their support. But I guess the question here is: why has the Government not taken the urgency which it said that it would do in relation to actually taking these two substances seriously? We know that there have been around 80 deaths\u201480 deaths\u2014caused by those two substances over the last\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e021b0bf9e4e404a856415a9f3fed7d7\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: What was your bill going to do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237e6280b0f0b45308d04e0184a4cee79\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u201418 months. Take some action, Mr Ball, and actually deal with these issues. But what\u2019s happened here is that the Deputy Prime Minister, Winston Peters, your leader, said on 31 July last year that this issue would be dealt with with urgency and unction, and here we are\u2014what\u2019s the date today, Mr Bayly? Oh, it\u2019s 7 August 2019. And now we\u2019re here, finally\u2014sorry, it\u2019s 6 August. I should always consult the Hon Michael Woodhouse on these issues. He is a numbers guy. He is an accountant and used to run a hospital, so he\u2019s a fantastic man. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019d like to bring it back to the point here that this issue has been before the House, and it is good that it is finally being dealt with, but the question does need to be asked as to why the Minister did not use his powers under the Misuse of Drugs Act to classify these drugs overnight through the process that he had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EMy second question relates to the new class C1 orders, or the temporary class drug orders, which are also being put in place and which the National Party is also supporting under this bill. My question relates to the process it\u2019s going to take for that to actually come into effect. The Minister will get advice, a new drug will be presenting, and there will be harm being identified. How quickly will it take for the ministry to be able to put in place, or for the Minister to put in place, a temporary class order to classify those drugs? And then how long will the process be for those drugs to actually be able to be assessed and then actually be classified? I understand in section 4F, \u201CDuration of the temporary class drug order\u201D, it will be for approximately a year. Is the Minister confident that that is enough time\u2014seeing that it has taken over a whole year since the Minister received advice on AMB-FUBINACA and 5F-ADB\u2014to give them the classification that those two incredibly harmful drugs actually deserve? So I leave that as my first call, and I look forward to the Minister\u2019s responses. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u002285eb072b02824e238051af2b621172f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285eb072b02824e238051af2b621172f9\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green):\u003C/span\u003E E Te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e Te Whare. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on behalf of the Greens on this, the committee of the whole House stage of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill, and I think that I actually can be of some use in addressing the questions put by the member Simeon Brown, because the Minister is on the record a number of times speaking to that point. But also I think that it would be quite useful to take him through a history lesson as to how the expert advisory committee came to be and what its powers actually are, given that he consistently refers to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo the member, the National Party member Simeon Brown, asked why the Minister chose this legislative process to reclassify the two chemical compounds that are implicated in the deaths of nigh on 100 New Zealanders. He noted that the National Party supports the increase of penalties for the supply and production of these two chemicals, but he doesn\u2019t note that the National Party doesn\u2019t support what is perhaps the most important part of this legislation, which deviates from his own member\u2019s bill, which he referred to, as well, multiple times\u2014that being the ability for those who are caught in the web of addiction to access help and to access treatment and the codification, the explicit codification, of police discretion to choose to put people down that therapeutic pathway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo to let Mr Simeon Brown know, the expert advisory committee came into effect in the early 2000s as a result of amendments to the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975, an archaic piece of legislation by any measure, especially given the huge swathes of evidence internationally that have progressed with regard to drug harm reduction. But the expert advisory committee was established with the powers limited solely to recommending where substances should be classified in relation to other substances and where they are classified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe expert advisory committee, simply put, cannot recommend anything but classification. They are limited in being unable to recommend alternative, better harm reduction measures that are evidence-based. They can literally only refer to harm and where within the classification of other substances the substances that they are speaking to should be classified. I find it an interesting point raised by the member of the Opposition, but that brings me particularly to the part which the Opposition doesn\u2019t support\u2014probably because it actually requires taking some action that would actually make a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll refer now to Supplementary Order Paper 291, in the name of the Hon Paula Bennett. I hope that she does seek a call on this, given that it is in her name, because what this Supplementary Order Paper actually seeks to do is remove the most important parts of this legislation, in that it seeks to remove or delete clause 6, which legislates police discretion. There\u2019s a little bit of misinformation\u2014might be one way to put it\u2014in the explanatory note that the Hon Paula Bennett has put together, because she says \u201Cwhich legislates police discretion not to prosecute for the possession and use of controlled drugs.\u201D That is not quite true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EFor the fourth or fifth time, I will read out to the members in Opposition what clause 6 actually does explicitly per this legislation as drafted. It says \u201CTo avoid doubt,\u201D\u2014the members may want to read this\u2014\u201Cit is affirmed that there is a discretion to prosecute for an offence against this subsection (1)(a), and a prosecution should not be brought unless it is required in the public interest.\u201D Interestingly enough, when this was being debated in the first and second reading, the Opposition, the National Party, sought to say that this made absolutely no change whatsoever to how the police currently operate. They sought to say that this makes absolutely no change, but then they simultaneously, on the other hand, said that it was a huge fundamental change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo I put it to the members of the National Party opposite to get clarity and coherency of their position on this legislation. Ultimately, fundamentally, do they want to punish people who are caught in the web of addiction? What this legislation does is make it explicit that the police have the power to prosecute as a backstop; otherwise, they should be directing to a therapeutic approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c96c063160aa43e88a9623d93c51ea88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c96c063160aa43e88a9623d93c51ea88\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, thank goodness for Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick! There we are, wallowing in a sea of ignorance and in darkness about what on earth we\u2019re trying to achieve here, and thank goodness Ms Swarbrick comes along and shines a big bright light on this bill. I feel so much better because of that thorough telling off that we just got for not understanding her view of this bill. That\u2019s kind of exactly what we\u2019ve heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, I want to concentrate on clause 6, in Part 1, mainly because that\u2019s the only bit we disagree with. I think we\u2019ve made that very clear. In order to just clarify the last point that Ms Swarbrick made, the question was put by way of a question: are we here at the first reading of this bill to codify existing practice, or are we here to make, as she describes, the biggest change in drug law reform in 40 years? So I am very confused about that. I will concede defeat on that, because the Minister says one thing and the Green Party representative says another.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f990a7400af40cca10264ce6cea0ae3\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re not mutually exclusive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b311233a73d54619bac47406bfce86f2\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they kind of are. We\u2019re either making a massive change or we\u2019re not. I think we know the answer, and I think members on this side have been very clear what we are doing here. This is the de facto decriminalising of drug possession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe member, in reading the clause, pointed out one of the key differences between this and normal police discretion, because the words in new section 7(5), inserted by clause 6, say \u201Cit is affirmed that there is a discretion to prosecute\u201D, as if New Zealand Police didn\u2019t know that. It\u2019s an offence under the Misuse of Drugs Act\u2014of course there\u2019s a discretion to prosecute. When we see the codification of police discretion, those words inevitably say there is a discretion not to prosecute, and that matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI worry\u2014and I mentioned this in my second reading speech\u2014that we are actually conflating the sorts of constitutional separations of powers between this legislature and the executive as carried out by the New Zealand Police, and it is entirely inappropriate for this place to lay out what police should be doing on laws that we pass. The constitutional convention is that we pass the laws, they interpret the laws, and they use their constabulary discretion in the way they see fit. Now, when we add words to the clause that say police should not prosecute, we are sending them a very clear signal. One of the things we heard about in the Health Committee was the degree to which there is a form of unconscious bias in the disproportionate number of M\u0101ori and Pasifika that are charged under the Misuse of Drugs Act for drug possession. I have no such concern. I have no such concern now, because police won\u2019t be prosecuting anybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, I will ask the Minister of Health this, because he has now introduced Supplementary Order Paper 288 and, frankly, I am completely flummoxed about what on earth this change means. He says \u201CIn clause 6, new section 7(6), after \u2018more beneficial\u2019 \u2026 insert [the words] \u2018to the public interest\u2019.\u201D The explanatory note is extraordinary. It says \u201CThis Supplementary Order Paper adds some clarifying words\u201D, and that\u2019s all it says. It doesn\u2019t say why it\u2019s adding the clarifying words or what is intended by this amendment, and so I would, wallowing in my ignorance\u2014I\u2019m sure Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick may want to take another call, cut across the Minister, and tell us all what we\u2019re doing here, because she seems to be really good at that. But I genuinely want to know, because, obviously, the Hon Paula Bennett has an amendment to clause 6 that I will talk about in a future call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut I am fascinated by this amendment\u2014SOP 288\u2014to add the words \u201Cto the public interest\u201D, because it may materially change what we\u2019re doing here. I don\u2019t think it\u2019ll change our concern, because remember that the words are already in new section 7(6), inserted by clause 6 of the bill: \u201CWhen considering whether a prosecution is required in the public interest,\u201D. It seems to me that a health-centred or therapeutic approach is now not beneficial to the individual, who could be the subject of a charge under the Misuse of Drugs Act. The health-centred or therapeutic approach is now beneficial in the public interest\u2014or, rather, to the public interest\u2014and I\u2019d appreciate an explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022 data-id=\u002288a828b9f58247838116caa352a4545f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288a828b9f58247838116caa352a4545f\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I didn\u2019t think that I\u2019d ever see the day that a former National Party Minister of Police disagrees with the Police Association and disagrees with the police themselves. We\u2019ve got the National Party wanting to delete all of clause 6 in this bill. Here\u2019s what the Police Association say about one of those parts in clause 6: \u201CThe association supports [that clause] which reconfirms the public interest test and adds as a relevant matter, consideration as to whether a health-centred or therapeutic approach would be more beneficial\u201D. The Police Association supports the clause, or part thereof, that the National Party wants to get rid of. The police themselves\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262dc2ffb5f0f400d9950108e17531380\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Which paragraph?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280bc1e8fc4c249ae92678822c327e232\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: Paragraph number 18 of the Police Association submission. Then the police themselves, their submission on the bill: \u201CThe intent of clause 6\u201D\u2014which is the clause that the National Party want to get rid of\u2014\u201Caffirms the existing approach to police prosecutorial discretion, emphasises that consideration of a health-centred or therapeutic approach is a relevant part of the public interest test under the Solicitor-General\u2019s guidelines.\u201D All it is doing is reaffirming what the police already do. The police know and support that clause, because it just reaffirms what they do. The Police Association supports that part of the clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003ENow, that points to one of two things: that the National Party is ignoring what the Police Association is saying and ignoring what the police are saying, or\u2014which I suspect is the case\u2014they\u2019ve lost their way. The National Party has an identity crisis, personified by their leader. Nevertheless, they have lost their roots\u2014right? The National Party want to stand up here\u2014and Simeon Brown tried to do it in the previous speech that he\u2019s given; I\u2019ll address that in a second\u2014and say that they are tough on crime, that they are tough on drugs, and that they back the police 100 percent, but they don\u2019t fulfil what their intent is with what they\u2019re saying when the Police Association and the police themselves disagree with what they\u2019re saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EI want to move on to Simeon Brown and what his contribution was\u2014a brief contribution tonight. I put up with a lot of things, but what I can\u2019t put up with is the continued faux outrage from Simeon Brown about New Zealand First not supporting his bill and about his bill addressing the issue of synthetic cannabis and how his bill would\u2019ve solved all of the issues that this society and country is facing in regards to synthetic cannabis. Can I just say a couple of things. Firstly, all that Simeon Brown\u2019s bill was doing was moving the maximum penalty from two years to eight years in prison. That\u2019s all that that member\u2019s bill was doing to address the complex issues of synthetic cannabis and the problems that it was causing, and the 80-plus deaths that it was causing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003ENow, the other thing that he said was that it would\u2019ve happened speedier. Well, on the one hand, you\u2019ve got the National Party this afternoon talking about the processes of democracy and the House going through the select committee process in a fast manner or truncated manner, and yet they get up there and want to have his bill and his third reading of the bill and the bill under his name go through in such a quick manner that it will solve all of the problems. That\u2019s not how it works. We do this once, and we do it right. We go through a democratic process, we listen to the experts, and we come up with a piece of legislation that will deal with the multiple issues that synthetic cannabis brings to this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EWe do that in a couple of ways. We come down hard on the dealers, we come down hard on the manufacturers, we come down hard on the peddlers of this poison, but we also deal with those who are suffering from the addiction of this poison. We allow the police the affirmed discretion that they already use and they have used under concurrent Governments\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5228313850941198c49011e26b3c37d\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Why the change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fc7748129a047ceb8cf272bc6545de5\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so that member agrees now? Does that member agree now that it\u2019s just affirming what the police are doing? That member agrees that this legislation is just affirming what the police already have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EWhat bringing psychoactive substances into the Misuse of Drugs Act also does, that Simeon Brown seems to have forgotten, is it increases the ability and the powers of the police and others like customs for search and surveillance\u2014something which the current Psychoactive Substances Act does not do, something which Simeon Brown\u2019s member\u2019s bill would not have done. It increases the penalties. This is the ironic thing: this bill that we\u2019re talking about, this amendment bill, increases the penalties for the suppliers and manufacturers of psychoactive substances into a class A, which is life in prison. Simeon Brown\u2019s original bill was only going to go to eight years. There is no logic in them not supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019d like to say is that the Labour Party and New Zealand First Party had multiple discussions about this bill, and we\u2019ve come up with a bill that deals with the multiple layers of issues that the Misuse of Drugs Act needed to be brought into line with, and we\u2019ve done that with clause 6. But it also clarifies to a very good level in the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that the Minister of Health is bringing in, Supplementary Order Paper 288, what the intent is of clause 6 of this bill, which is to give the police the discretion that they already have and the ability to use their discretion, which benefits in the public interest. We need to understand that: that the arguments from the National Party have all been about this bill allowing de facto decriminalisation. That cannot be the case when they see this SOP and how it is written and the detail in this SOP, where it gives the police that discretion when it is in the public interest. How can it be decriminalisation if there is a prosecution available for the police and they would use that and they would prosecute if it was in the public interest? New Zealand First supports this bill, we support the SOP that the Minister has put forward, and we don\u2019t support the SOP that Paula Bennett has put forward, SOP 291. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2d51b4c36294131999926dc0dd5a421\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2d51b4c36294131999926dc0dd5a421\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to respond to some of the questions that have been raised, in particular those raised by the member Simeon Brown. The member asked why we used the legislative process for classifying the drugs as class A rather than an Order in Council process. I want to advise the member that the Order in Council process, officials have reminded me, can take up to a year. It is something that goes through a select committee process after it\u2019s issued by the Minister, and then after consideration by a select committee it is confirmed by the House by affirmative resolution. So, you know, that does take a period of time. This way meant that we had a clear time line when we put the legislation in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also true, of course, that the peddlers of these substances, as has often been covered in the debate, change the nature of them swiftly, and these substances are known to be harmful. When we announced our response as a Government, we also announced at the same time that we were going to put funds into a drug early warning system\u2014I want to thank the Drug Foundation for their contribution to that piece of work\u2014and also have money put aside for swift community responses to outbreaks where it was clear that users\u2014desperate people on the street\u2014were having really negative effects from these drugs. We know, as I said at the outset, that there have been, provisionally, many dozen deaths linked to these drugs so far. So whilst these drugs may or may not be frequent on the streets now\u2014we think less likely than they were earlier\u2014they\u2019re still very dangerous drugs. So it\u2019s still appropriate to classify them as class A, and, in fact, this may be the most efficient way of doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe second question the member raised was: will the temporary drug class order for a year be long enough? I would think, ordinarily, yes it would. You know, it\u2019s going to be long enough for the committee to meet and for us then to change the class of a drug. I\u2019m sure a temporary order could be sought subsequently again if that was needed. So it\u2019s to enable swift responses to new substances coming into the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe member Michael Woodhouse raised a question about Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 288 and asked what it meant. I did explain that in my opening comments, but I appreciate the member may not have been in the House, so I\u2019ll just repeat that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d9651a74c984f3c91405a86d425a5a5\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Wasn\u2019t listening\u2014yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab05717a3ef14f12bcec71033ef9aa74\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014sorry, may not have heard that. So I\u2019ll just repeat that the reason that that SOP is there is to clarify, because some of the submissions to the select committee had assumed that what was being weighed up here was a private interest for the individual and the fact that they might benefit from treatment against the wider public interest, when, in fact, it\u2019s actually the public interest which is the overriding test as to whether that person should be guided towards therapy. For example, if that person had resisted some kind of therapeutic approach previously and was engaged in domestic violence, the police clearly would be likely to then pursue a prosecution because that would be in the public interest and the individual\u2019s private interests would be secondary. So it\u2019s really just to clarify, because it seemed that some of the submissions were not clear on that point. It\u2019s belts and braces, if you like, but we think belts and braces are a good idea if that means that everybody understands the intent of the law in the same way. So I do repeat that, but I appreciate the member may not have caught that at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo those are the questions that have been raised up until now in the debate. I shall let the debate continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e99855f0d5994717ba94b8a032727e4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e99855f0d5994717ba94b8a032727e4a\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I appreciate the Minister in the chair\u2019s clarification. I did not hear that original explanation, but it probably wasn\u2019t only the submitters that were confused about whether or not the test of a therapeutic benefit was a personal test rather than a public interest test. That has not been brought up, in my recollection, by either the officials or anybody else in relation to this, and that is a significant change to the intent of clause 6. I have now the regulatory impact statement and the departmental disclosure statement and, indeed, the Cabinet paper, and I\u2019m going to test whether that was the original intent. But, nevertheless, I appreciate the Minister\u2019s clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI want to touch on the matters raised by Mr Ball in his intervention\u2014in particular, a rather selective section of the Police Association\u2019s written submission, specifically paragraph 18, in the sense that he believes that as a consequence, the association actually supports this change. Actually, the Police Association are very nuanced in their submission. They neither support nor oppose it. I think they\u2019re probably more forward-leaning than in opposition to it. But I draw the member\u2019s attention\u2014he wasn\u2019t on the Health Committee\u2014to paragraph 15 of that written submission, which says, in respect of the expectations around not prosecuting, \u201CThis reinforces the association\u2019s concern that this bill is effectively decriminalising all drugs for personal use and tasking front line Police officers with enacting that.\u201D In the oral submission, Chris Cahill, in his submission, described this as compulsory discretion. There is no doubt in the Police Association\u2019s mind that this constitutes, effectively, decriminalising drug possession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EHe wasn\u2019t alone. Drug Foundation head, Mr Bell, also, in supporting that approach, actually said in his written submission that this was a move away from a presumption of prosecution to a presumption of non-prosecution, which, as I say, is constitutionally conflated. When I asked him\u2014and this is in relation, actually, to the personal versus the public interest question on therapeutic benefit\u2014whether there was a single situation that the New Zealand Drug Foundation could think of where a user would not benefit from a therapeutic approach, the answer was no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI think the third significant submission which reinforced our concern about de facto decriminalising was that from the New Zealand Law Society. I asked the submitter whether, as a good defence lawyer that he was, he would use the new section to defend anyone charged with drug possession on the basis that the prosecution should not have taken place because his client, or her client, would have benefited from a therapeutic approach and would he, or she, be able to drive a bus through that prosecution. The answer was yep, absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAs a consequence, of the thousand or so drug possession only charges\u2014and remember, drug possession is often part of a suite of charges that are laid, including, perhaps, property offences, assault charges, and dealing, potentially, if its possession for supply. There are still nearly a thousand prosecutions a year for possession alone, and, in the beliefs of the submitters\u2014and those three in particular\u2014there would be almost none of them once this bill has passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo we need to be very clear about what we\u2019re doing here. I lean towards Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2019s view that this is the biggest change to the Misuse of Drugs Act in 40 years. But, if it\u2019s not, and if this merely codifies police discretion and does what they\u2019ve always done, which is what the Government\u2014or at least some members of the Government\u2014say, then that\u2019s fine. We don\u2019t need clause 6. So Paula Bennett\u2019s amendment in her name deletes clause 6. It does just that. It simply restores the very police discretion that the Government and the Minister says that the police have. That clause is redundant. If we take it out, the National Party can support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022 data-id=\u00220602ffc3912849d79b0880e814454cc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220602ffc3912849d79b0880e814454cc7\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. As the chair of the Health Committee, it\u2019s been my absolute pleasure to shepherd through the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill, and can I firstly acknowledge the officials in the House tonight, both from the Ministry of Health and police, who did a fantastic job. I think it\u2019s incumbent on me, actually, to talk about why we\u2019ve reclassified AMB-FUBINACA, and 5F-ADB as class A drugs, and, by definition, they are very high-risk illicit drugs. We\u2019ve seen fit to include these synthetic cannabinoids within that definition because, since June 2017, over 50 New Zealanders have lost their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EWhat this piece of legislation is attempting to do is those two things, and I\u2019ll highlight those. Firstly, we are, and have, reclassified to enable the police and customs to have greater search and seizure powers. Why have we done that? Because we need to disrupt supply. We need to reduce the availability of these drugs to minimise harm to the public. We also are very clear that we do want to punish those who are involved in this illicit drug trade, but, from our perspective, they must be the importers, the manufacturers, and the distributors of those particular products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI was a bit neglectful to also acknowledge the National members of the Health Committee, because, in fact, they recommended the amendments set out in our report, but they just don\u2019t support the bill, and therein lies the other aspect of the bill I want to highlight, and it is clause 6, which amends section 7 of the primary legislation. Essentially, the first part of the bill is about punishing those we want to punish. The second aspect is about helping those that we think need help. So who are those people? Well, actually, they\u2019re the addicts. They\u2019re the people that do possess and use these products. As you\u2019ll see in amended clause 6, new section 7(5), \u201CTo avoid doubt, it is affirmed that there is a discretion to prosecute for an offence against subsection (1)(a),\u201D. Subsection (1)(a), by definition, is the possession and use of controlled drugs, and, I quote, it\u2019s about \u201Cprocure or have in his possession, or consume, smoke, or otherwise use, any controlled drug;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003ESo what are we talking about? We\u2019re talking about individuals who procure\u2014that means they\u2019ve obtained an illicit substance; they\u2019ve bought it. They possess, which means they have it on themselves; they hold it as property. And they consume, which means they use it. That\u2019s what this section is doing. So call it a de facto decriminalisation; we call it helping people who are addicts. The Minister has seen fit\u2014and I do want to acknowledge our coalition partners, New Zealand First\u2014that in clause 6, new section 7(5), we have now added to the end of that particular amended section \u201Cto the public interest\u201D under Supplementary Order Paper 288, in the Minister\u2019s name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003ESo what is the public interest? Well, by definition, the public interest is the welfare, or wellbeing, of the general public. So the question we need to ask ourselves is: is it better for all of us that those people who procure, possess, or consume these illicit, or very high-risk illicit, drugs\u2014is it in our interest\u2014get the help that they need? That is what\u2019s contained in clause 6, new section 7(5) and (6), \u201Cwhether a health-centred or therapeutic approach would be more beneficial.\u201D, because the current opportunity cost to that option is we have 11 percent of our current prison population. These are based on figures from 30 June 2019. There\u2019s 9,969 people in prison, and 11 percent of those are in prison because of drug offences. Not all of them would be for\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa8855a687a0434ea1587a0e473c24bb\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Seven of them\u2014seven.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223712da0e90de4d678c2d1212d98fb143\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s 11. You should have a look at the latest stats, Michael; I can send you the link if you\u2019d like to see it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003ESo we are very clear on this side that it\u2019s in the public interest for those people not to be in prison. It\u2019s in the public interest for those people to get the help that they deserve, and that\u2019s why this section is vital\u2014vital\u2014to this piece of legislation, because it says to the public, \u201CThe people that need to be punished\u2014we will punish them. The people that need to be helped\u2014we will help them.\u201D Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022888aad7e8cdb42b8b4c4832c985891d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022888aad7e8cdb42b8b4c4832c985891d1\u0022\u003EHon MAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I rise to speak to the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill at the committee of the whole House. I have been listening to this debate and following it through its progress in the House. I wasn\u2019t on the Health Committee at the time it was going through, but I have followed it with great interest, and I certainly supported the bill of my colleague Simeon Brown which sought to put greater penalties across the people who were peddling the harm and increasing the misery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EIt does seem to me that there\u2019s an ideological divide here between our side of the House and yours, and that has been alluded to by other speakers as well, but I think that one of the things that we need to make clear is that here, in National, on our side, we have always supported greater rehabilitation. That\u2019s why we put a lot of money into the way that drug rehabilitation was conducted in prisons. We don\u2019t understand why the Labour Government removed that and did not support that ongoing rehabilitation. It is very important that addicts get the help that they need, but I\u2019ve heard rather a lot tonight and in other calls in this debate about the web of addiction and the health-based approach for addicts, and while that\u2019s all very well, people make choices and they do peddle harm and have to face those consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003ESo there are aspects of this bill that we agree with, and there are aspects that we do not. Some of the fundamentals we do agree on are around the therapeutic interest, but being beneficial to the public interest is something that a lot of speakers have touched on. What does it really mean? And how does a policeperson, when they\u2019re out there on the beat\u2014with a domestic situation, for example, or a volatile situation\u2014make that call in the heat of the moment? How much responsibility are we putting on police to make a call not just about the two types of synthetic drugs that have been specifically named here but about all the other range of drugs that the police will be required on the spot to make decisions about, and whether it is in the public interest or not is a very hard thing. They don\u2019t have, like the cricket and rugby referees, some kind of replay so that they can look back on it and immediately decide whether they\u2019ve done the wrong thing; it\u2019s too late, and that\u2019s at the heart of what we don\u2019t like about aspects of this bill. It is too late in what it\u2019s trying to do, and it ignored one of the measures that Simeon Brown had put up that would have, perhaps, resulted in fewer than the 80 deaths that have occurred in the last 18 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EAccessing help, therapeutic advice, and drug harm reduction we\u2019re on side with. But the idea that clause 6\u2014and the Hon Paula Bennett has put up an amendment to that, Supplementary Order Paper 291, which we support on this side of the House, which deletes clause 6, which legislates police discretion not to prosecute for the possession and use of controlled drugs. We believe it goes too far. We believe that many aspects of this bill are commendable, but that is not one of them. So, if there was any openness from the other side to look at that\u2014if the Minister wanted to perhaps explore with us again what other nuances could be really brought into play here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI heard the Hon Mark Mitchell talk about this bill the other night, and he outlined a personal difficult situation with a family member. We are all of us, as with many debates in this House, worried about what we\u2019ve heard ourselves, what\u2019s happened to members of our own family. Of course that informs our positions, but, to hear a former policeman describe a family tragedy and to understand what led to that and how difficult this particular law would have been to the prevention of some of the worst excesses of the people who are under the influence of drugs, for \u201Cthe wider public interest\u201D and \u201Cthe wider public good\u201D need to be removed from the equation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003ESo that was why we supported the notion of more than doubling the police sentence, as Simeon Brown had suggested, bringing it up at least to other drugs so that the message would be loud and clear and would be received by all of those who seek to peddle this misery: that this is something that will not be without consequences. Let the police have discretion, as they have had in the past and continue to use, but to the level that this particular piece of legislation allows it is, I think, unfair and unworkable, which is why we support the Supplementary Order Paper by Paula Bennett to delete the police discretion not to prosecute for the possession and use of controlled drugs. If that was removed, there might be an altogether different attitude from this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022132d6a5349ec4add9f81a79687efce4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022132d6a5349ec4add9f81a79687efce4b\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I\u2019d like to take another call, following on from the contributions on this side, including the contribution by the Hon Michael Woodhouse in relation to clause 6, which is the issue which we\u2019ve been traversing, which I think Michael Woodhouse has put very clearly: that if this is not such a major change, as the Minister is trying to put to the committee, then this should be withdrawn. I too rise in support of the Hon Paula Bennett\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 291 to delete clause 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI would like to point the Minister\u2019s attention to a couple of documents. Firstly, to the departmental disclosure document, under the heading \u201CPart Four \u2026 Strict liability or reversal of the usual burden of proof for offences\u201D, it clearly states that subsection (5) ensures the police can decide not to prosecute if either a health-centred or therapeutic approach is to be preferred for the person or the offence is inconsequential. It does not talk about the public interest here in this disclosure document. It is talking about \u201Cfor the person\u201D, and so the issue here that we continue to bring to the Minister\u2019s attention is the confusion that this is going to be leading to for our police. While he is including another few words around the public interest, we want to highlight the fact that the police here will be having to make these decisions based upon the health-centred or therapeutic approach for the individual person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI would like to also highlight the New Zealand Police Association\u2019s submission\u2014and it\u2019s paragraph 16, if the member Darroch Ball is interested\u2014which says, \u201CWith respect to those who do need drug rehabilitation and other forms of health care, officers know such facilities are scarce and not consistently available throughout New Zealand. Officers also know police cells are no substitute for health care.\u201D So I bring those points to the Minister because what this highlights is the fact that officers are going to be put between a rock and a hard place, and we\u2019re not just talking about cannabis here, we\u2019re not just talking about class C substances; we\u2019re talking about all classified substances in New Zealand. That includes meth, it includes cocaine, it includes ecstasy, it includes heroin\u2014the whole list of drugs. Police will be put between a rock and a hard place, where they will have to make a call on whether there is a health-centred or therapeutic approach available\u2014where their evidence says that that is something which can be patchy\u2014or whether to prosecute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo I ask the Minister to please explain to us whether the police will be making this decision in the public interest or on an individual case for the person, because that is something which I think this House needs a very clear answer to. But the SOP which he has put down actually only further confuses the situation which we have before this committee. This is a serious issue. As Michael Woodhouse has said, if this is simply just codifying police discretion, well, we already have it. This section is not required in this piece of legislation, because the police have to make these decisions every single day. But, if this is giving the police an additional test for all substances\u2014and we heard this is for all substances\u2014then that is something which is far more serious and is something which I believe this House should be taking far more consideration of, and also that the Government does have a responsibility to ensure that there is far better treatment available and far more health-centred or therapeutic approaches available consistently across the country so that the police are able to make that decision and to use that discretion as they will be required to under this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo I ask the Minister to take a call and address those issues. He may talk about some of the investments which are being made. He may talk about the amount of money which was announced during the Government\u2019s announcement towards the end of last year, but that was only, I think, $12 million or $16 million. That\u2019s not going to provide the substantive support required across the country. The point I would make is that that change should be happening before we in this Parliament are changing the law to decriminalise all these substances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 288 in the name of the Hon Dr David Clark to clause 6 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bd50b14c149449fbb6e137f14842253b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022adf45006f9484703a601111d82537de9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adf45006f9484703a601111d82537de9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Paula Bennett\u2019s amendment deleting clause 6, as set out on Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 291, is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec2b30f4565c4afca9b79e007779368e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec2b30f4565c4afca9b79e007779368e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chair. Without for a moment wanting to challenge your ruling, the question is an interesting one because clause 6 as a whole still hasn\u2019t been considered, and, regardless of whether there was merit in the Minister\u2019s SOP, the member Paula Bennett\u2019s amendment is not subordinate or consequent on that decision. We still haven\u2019t made a decision about whether clause 6 should proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00222b0575575cc4438185114869817e91c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b0575575cc4438185114869817e91c0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve just agreed to amend clause 6, and the Hon Paula Bennett\u2019s SOP is to delete it, so it\u2019s inconsistent. The committee has just agreed to amend clause 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d27cfc00a8284b2cae9a030f4da8cfe0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d27cfc00a8284b2cae9a030f4da8cfe0\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E My question is this: had that amendment not been agreed to, would that have defeated clause 6? The answer to that is certainly not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8c8c7285598478797497a9d8705c0f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8c8c7285598478797497a9d8705c0f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know how much time you\u2019d like to spend on hypothetical questions. You\u2019re welcome to contact me later. We have agreed on an amended clause 6. The Hon Paula Bennett\u2019s SOP is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ba7de2f676594d1489e49c50f13b3d72\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ddff2e60f58e4ecda9fcebfc6e41f216\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendment to Psychoactive Substances Act 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00220b1f930b8d2a449884b9e0427004b36f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b1f930b8d2a449884b9e0427004b36f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Just a short contribution to describe this part of the bill. Currently, substances capable of inducing a psychoactive effect that are not classified under the Misuse of Drugs Act are captured as unapproved psychoactive substances. These are regulated under the Psychoactive Substances Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis section will specify that substances scheduled under a temporary class drug order are not captured by the definition of a psychoactive substance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aa2f807e394b4b97b54e5170d79f2565\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221eb7fbaa35e84937969bea303f22caf9\u0022\u003EClause 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227e11cc15498c410f8fdd77d2aae4af1f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002202e4d547b1334227aac5c6be6cefd82f\u0022\u003EClause 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c95641570bd749dbb8c940d93c35cf42\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224c0d672c80f74527b8ce8cdb060af4c4\u0022\u003EClause 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bfa2de73f94141799b695484b926cb36\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000677\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022771ee301ea2b4a17bf6b29530a1c0b8f\u0022\u003ECopyright (Marrakesh Treaty Implementation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c2aa1f3ec02543e89e022a1d1efbe7d8\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c1d001fafca4391b9ac077d56d33baf\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u00223741179fd3d147418e294953fdecb619\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223741179fd3d147418e294953fdecb619\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E This is a relatively non-controversial piece of legislation before the House, but I still think it\u2019s one that is of huge significance to those with a print disability. So I thought I might just take the opportunity, for those who may be listening at home, to run over the main parts or aspects of Part 1 of the bill, because this is the substantive part of the bill, and also to take a chance to thank the Economic Development, Science and Innovation (EDSI) Committee, who made one substantive change to the bill in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThis bill will allow New Zealand, who has signed up to the Marrakesh Treaty, to assist those who are blind, visually impaired, or otherwise print-disabled to access published works. The treaty is intended to make life easier for those people, who are referred to in the treaty as \u201Cbeneficiary persons\u201D, to obtain accessible format copies of copyright works\u2014and examples of accessible formats are the likes of Braille, large print, or an audio format. The treaty requires parties or countries who sign up to the treaty to provide an exception to copyright legislation. This exception will allow for the production, reproduction, distribution, import, and export of accessible format copies\u2014which I mentioned before\u2014without the permission of the copyright owner. This exception can only be used by authorised entities and persons with print disabilities themselves or persons acting on their behalf. The definition of an \u201Cauthorised entity\u201D in the bill and in the treaty includes non-profit organisations such as educational institutions, libraries, and charities serving those with print disabilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ECan I, as I said earlier in my contribution, thank members of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, who took submissions and considered this piece of legislation, and came up with three suggested amendments\u2014one which is substantive, which was a change to clause 6, and this was around the removal of what is known as the commercial availability test in the Copyright Act. The report back from the EDSI select committee recommended that clause 6 of the bill be amended to remove the commercial availability test from this bill and also, obviously, from the Copyright Act. The commercial availability test would require authorised entities to make reasonable efforts to obtain a commercially available accessible format copy of a work within a reasonable time and at an ordinary commercial price before making an accessible format copy of that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ENow, I think it\u2019s fair to say that a number of\u2014I think a majority\u2014those who submitted to the select committee supported the removal of the commercial availability test. But I think a number of members in the House may have had correspondence or contact with the likes of those who own copyright of works and are concerned about the removal of the commercial availability test. I just wanted to take some time to make sure that we allayed some of those concerns from those stakeholders. Those stakeholders who predominantly represent publishers and authors, have raised concerns with members and me directly about the removal of that test, and their main concern is that the removal of the test will reduce sales of accessible format copies and therefore reduce the incentive to create accessible format copies. And, in some instances, they claim that that may increase the price of some of these accessible formats for those who want to get it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWe have asked them for evidence of that in jurisdictions that have also removed the commercial availability test. They haven\u2019t been able to find that, and attempts by officials to try and allay any concerns by looking for evidence of that has so far come up with nothing as well. So I think some of the concerns that they have around the commercial availability test and the effect that that may have on copyright holders might be able to be dealt with in the wider review of the Copyright Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EMy five minutes are coming to an end, but I would just like to again thank the select committee for their work, and if anyone has questions I\u2019m happy to answer them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1bf9f49ae234fb9add57262961139ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1bf9f49ae234fb9add57262961139ce\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Can I just thank the Minister for his comments and can I thank members of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee for what I thought was a very thorough process in looking at the Copyright (Marrakesh Treaty Implementation) Amendment Bill \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EOf course, you know, the intent of this bill is to enable the possibly more than 168,000 New Zealanders who have difficulty accessing printed material, who have some disability around that, so that they can enjoy and participate in the aspects of life that many other New Zealanders do enjoy, particularly when it comes to university studies and advancing their opportunities. I think the Minister has been very good to canvass the issue, the most substantive issue, which was the commercial availability test. We did have considerable discussion around this, trying to find the balance between the interests of those copyright holders and those people who need to access in a timely fashion those written works, especially when there\u2019s time constraints around, perhaps, university studies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EWhat we felt was that if we remove the commercial availability test, as many countries around the world who ascribe to this treaty have already done, that in itself creates the incentive for those authors of those works to ensure that they actually do have works available to those people who have some impairment. Obviously, the authors of those works have a commercial interest, and we don\u2019t want to deny them that, but we think there\u2019s an opportunity for them to respond to the needs of New Zealanders, particularly those 168,000, if not more, who have a print disability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003ECan I say thank you very much to the officials. This was not a controversial piece of legislation. As we know, the Marrakesh Treaty was concluded on 28 June 2013 and entered into force on 30 September 2016. So we, essentially, do want to advance this through the House in a timely manner in order to create that availability for those people who will respond and appreciate being able to access different formats to copyright works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThank you very much, Madam Chair. I believe that members of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee were unanimous in their support of the adoption of this piece of legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002291fd15f35cf4453992eba70d988273da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291fd15f35cf4453992eba70d988273da\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the member Jonathan Young, who\u2019s just resumed his seat. Again, I think the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee did some excellent work, and while it\u2019s a non-controversial bill, I think there\u2019s some tension around the commercial availability test. I think it\u2019s useful that I back up some of the words of the chair of the select committee just to make sure that we do have it on the record that both the Government and the select committee are in complete synchronisation with each other on this, because I still think that there may be some efforts to reinforce the point of some of the copyright holders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI think that when the select committee looked at this, and also officials, some of the points that those copyright holders made, we\u2014myself and the select committee\u2014do believe that publishers and authors will still be incentivised to create the accessible format copies, whether that be Braille or audio. I understand from officials that producing a book in an audio or Braille format can cost up to tens of thousands of dollars, and this means that authorised entities and print-disabled people would be motivated to seek copies that are already commercially available. Purchasing a copy in an accessible format would likely cost less than producing an accessible format copy themselves. Again, this issue was raised with the select committee, and it noted that most countries, including the likes of the United States and the European Union, have removed the commercial availability test, and, at this stage, no evidence of that being a disadvantage to the likes of authors or publishers or copyright holders has been found to date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to reinforce that the select committee noted that there is a requirement in the bill for authorised entities to take all reasonable steps to notify the owner of a copyright work of an intention to make or import an accessible format, and the select committee also said that this should incentivise cooperation between authorised entities and copyright owners themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAgain, echoing the sentiment of the select committee chair, the overall aim of this is to assist the nearly 170,000 New Zealanders who do have issues with accessing accessible formats if they are print-disabled. Without taking any more time of the committee, I think getting through this committee stage will allow them to use the Copyright Act in a way that will advantage them. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222314782132b640b9b2072d96582e26c0\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223af2c7b414634ed3b5cbd06e35f74830\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022748b219875324fb3a59ed64c182f71e7\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f98c6a77b6d42f89377a6d4ad88a28d\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4528cae59cc437f904b77681071c90a\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000702\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022323be3426d52477db342d8957d244c65\u0022\u003EContempt of Court Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5b7077d7e6749b4bd7cc623134ba612\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c0484505dfb483ead99cbb53df9ea27\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022871ec91a3088470f955ea75c6a716dc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022871ec91a3088470f955ea75c6a716dc0\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to take a call on Part 1 of the Contempt of Court Bill, partly to draw attention to the really important reforms around freedom of expression. We in the National Party believe that, actually, the ability for people to be able to speak freely and to be able to enjoy those most basic of rights to be able to criticise public institutions is quite crucial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, I want to draw your attention to the provisions in Part 1 around enhancing public respect for our judicial systems, because an extraordinary thing has happened in the select committee process. During the select committee of this bill, we came to an agreement unanimously that we wanted to enhance freedom of speech\u2014that we wanted to follow the example of repealing the crime of contempt that is present and was repealed in 2013 in the UK, and is a basic right in Canada and the United States. But, incredibly, we now have the Minister overriding the decisions of the select committee. The reason it\u2019s relevant to Part 1 of the bill is this issue of how we maintain and enhance public confidence in our judicial system. There was a fascinating ruling from the Supreme Court of the United States when this very issue was tested in respect of the freedom of speech issues. The Supreme Court of the US made a, in my view, wonderfully powerful statement and it was this: \u201CWe enhance the respect for our courts and our judicial system not by silencing its critics but by the quality of its judgments.\u201D I want to draw to members opposite that that is the conclusion the select committee came to. Yet, we now have the Government doing not what the UK has done, not enjoying the rights that are available in Australia, the United States, or Canada, but the Government re-criminalising people who may which to criticise decisions of the courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo the question I have for the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, is: how are we intending to advance the purposes of this Act of which the select committee, quite rightly, said a key purpose is to maintain and enhance public confidence in the judicial system\u2014something that we, on this side, totally respect, but equally believe that that is best maintained by maintaining freedom of speech? Also, for the Minister to give some explanation as to why, in his view, we enhance public confidence in the judicial system by taking a different approach to that which is taken in other free and liberal countries like the UK, like Australia, like Canada, and like the US. Why do we want New Zealanders to have fewer rights in respect of freedom of speech than people in those other countries have and how does it relate to the purposes of this Act of maintaining and enhancing public respect of the law? How can we say that we are reforming the law of contempt, as provided for in clause 3(1), if the Government is intending to change the select committee report and to re-criminalise the issue of people who may criticise decisions of the court? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI think that this bill as reported back from the select committee was a very substantive and significant improvement in the freedoms of speech that New Zealanders enjoy. I am quite surprised and taken aback that the Minister has tabled a Supplementary Order Paper that undermines what\u2019s provided for in clause 3 around enhancing and improving public confidence in the judicial system. I really challenge the Minister to say why it is possible that the UK has repealed contempt of court as a criminal offence. How come the judicial systems of the United States and of Canada have proven that they are quite able to do their affairs and to maintain their judicial system without a criminal offence of contempt? Why, most importantly, is he overriding the decision of the select committee? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00227a93b32223534c9aae3e1cc5be6bccea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a93b32223534c9aae3e1cc5be6bccea\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity to speak. It\u2019ll come as no surprise to the committee that I disagree with the Hon Dr Nick Smith. He\u2019s got things completely wrong. He\u2019s not only got things wrong, he\u2019s mis-stated the facts of the matter. So it is correct that, in its current form, this Part 1, clause 3(1)\u2014and, in particular, paragraph (b)\u2014refers to, as one of the objectives of this bill, maintaining and enhancing public confidence in the judicial system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EDr Smith is very good at using language that actually doesn\u2019t explain and describe what actually happened. Ministers do not have the right to override select committee recommendations; it is wrong to say that. Dr Smith says it, and one has to assume there\u2019s a level of mischief about it, but it is wrong to say that. Ministers do not override recommendations of select committees. This House, however, in exercising its role and its function as part of the committee of the whole House, is fully entitled to say, \u201CWe\u2019ve seen the recommendations of the select committee. They\u2019ve got it wrong.\u201D There is a very good reason why this House might want to say that, in relation to the provision of what was described originally as \u201Cscandalising the court\u201D\u2014that is to say, saying untrue things about judges\u2014that is something that the House, in this committee stage, might want to review. That is simply this: there was one member on the committee who was vociferously opposed to that provision\u2014a member who happens to have a conviction for contempt of court, for just that thing. So there is a question about conflict of interest undeclared at the select committee on that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENevertheless, having seen the select committee\u2019s report back to the House and seen what the select committee has done, Cabinet has reviewed it, I\u2019ve reviewed it, the Attorney-General has reviewed it. We\u2019ve looked at the UK experience, and the UK is very clear\u2014I met their new Attorney-General last week, as well as their new Home Secretary. They have said that, actually, there is a problem in their contempt of court law at the moment. Judges are being absolutely slated\u2014vicious, vile, untrue things being said about them. Not criticism of their decisions, not criticism of their work, but things like, \u201CThis judge is corrupt.\u201D The only recourse they\u2019ve got is to take defamation action to, effectively, appear in front of their fellow judges to get some sort of justice. It is bogging it right down. There is no real accountability for them. So having the ability for the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General, who are both charged as part of their roles of protecting the reputation and the standing of judges against unjustified and untrue attacks, is absolutely vital. This allows us to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s remember the origins of this bill. This started out as a Law Commission report, with a draft piece of legislation that a former National MP, the Hon Chris Finlayson, picked up. It included the original clause that allowed for a criminal sanction against those who to a very high standard say untrue things about judges with a view to undermining confidence in the judicial system. The Hon Chris Finlayson was adamant on his considerations and his experience, and he had an enormous amount of it, that this was one thing that was needed to ensure, to provide, that limited level of protection for judges against the most egregious attacks on them as judges, unrelated to the quality of their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ECabinet made the judgment and I made the judgment that, actually, we should retain that in the bill. So I\u2019ve now produced Supplementary Order Paper 289 to do that. This is all about achieving the objectives set out there in clause 3(1)(b) of maintaining and enhancing public confidence in the judicial system. It is not possible to maintain and enhance public confidence in the judicial system if people who are aggrieved at what has happened to themselves in a court can make salacious and untrue remarks about a judge and there can be no effective recourse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve made the judgment that that provision must be retained, and it is retained. It is totally consistent with that objective. It is totally consistent with the objective of the whole bill, which is about effective remedies to ensure that those who breach the court\u2019s rules and those who seek to undermine the standing and efficacy of the courts and our judicial system should be met with an appropriate sanction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo that matter that that member has raised is fully answered in Supplementary Order Paper 289.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00227b4d0f8abc3b40549d9c832a81c12dfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b4d0f8abc3b40549d9c832a81c12dfe\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Allow me to start by addressing a point that the Minister made, I think, well\u2014I\u2019ll take a step back. The Minister explained clearly that the Minister cannot direct a select committee, and that\u2019s true as far as it goes. But it\u2019s also true that the Minister doesn\u2019t sit on the select committee. The Minister isn\u2019t, and in this case wasn\u2019t, aware of all the deliberation and discussion. For him to misrepresent the situation as took place in the select committee without having been present and, therefore, fully aware of it, I think, is unfortunate to say the least. I refer, in particular, to his characterisation of the what he calls \u201Cconflict of interest\u201D in relation to my colleague and friend the Hon Dr Nick Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFirst, it was not only one member of the committee who found, for sound policy reasons\u2014about which we can have a reasonable discussion, surely, soon\u2014that it is objectionable to restrict free speech in this way. There are other alternatives for dealing with that inherent conflict in that balance of rights question. But it wasn\u2019t only one member; it was at least two, and in fact, I\u2019m pleased to say, many more members of the committee, and in fact, I\u2019m pleased to say, ultimately to the credit of the Labour members of the committee that they too agreed with where we, the National Party members, wished to land on that. The report of the select committee makes it very clear that it\u2019s not a minority view or even, technically, a National Party member view\u2014four-four, split committee as it was\u2014but, in fact, a unanimous decision. So that\u2019s the first point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe second, in relation to the alleged conflict of interest, is that Dr Smith\u2019s matter is not a matter currently before the court, so there\u2019s no personal interest, in that sense of a vested interest, in him having a view on this. He has a policy interest in it, sure, but we all have at least some connection with various matters that come before select committees and the House. For example, an easy illustration is we all pay income tax\u2014or, at least, we should\u2014and so we all have a technical conflict of interest in relation to taxation matters. So I don\u2019t need to probably belabour that point terribly far except to say that I think it\u2019s pretty poor form to be alleging a conflict of interest for an historical matter and one that the Minister has said was not declared; in fact, this matter was discussed at the select committee. If the Minister had been there, he would have known that. Of course, he wasn\u2019t there\u2014quite rightly he wasn\u2019t there\u2014because that, as he has explained himself\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4b1ef4c4f1e45cb828f877f946c40ac\u0022\u003EGreg O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Refused to be conflicted out, Mr Penk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2245998a83b429d958d8896370d17bb\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Mr O\u2019Connor\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203ceb2306d834579ae8f286a0460739b\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276eda3c1186647a9a048a9a499ce8f46\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I look forward to Mr O\u2019Connor taking a call on exactly that point. There was no good reason for Dr Smith\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9fdd5a420b7405da1aebe567f61cb4e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps if the member addressed the part that we\u2019re discussing it might help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022284c24f8e6d1425b8f024c0309c080af\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m certainly happy to address not only the part but also the points that the Minister has made in, presumably, addressing the part as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, addressing the part of the bill, in so far as it sets out the purpose of the bill, the language is very much around, of course quite rightly, wishing to protect the integrity of the judicial system. There\u2019s some very good work that has taken place throughout the bill, including in this part, to do exactly that. But to characterise the only option to do that in the case of the reputation of the judicial system as being either defamation or the offence provision that was originally in there, and is now effectively sought to be reinserted, is actually, simply not accurate. In fact, the bill itself contains a take-down order mechanism whereby the High Court can order that material that meets the threshold can be the subject of a take-down order. Of course, if that order is disobeyed, then that in itself is a contempt of court and can be dealt with very harshly indeed, and I would say quite rightly so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo there are other options. To suggest that there is no alternative to this seems to me, perhaps, quite a miss on the part of the Minister. I presume he\u2019s aware of that provision in the bill. So I\u2019m surprised that he doesn\u2019t mention it in his dissertation on the relative merits of defamation only versus the effectively reinstated position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got more to say on that but, seeing as that deals quite specifically with a clause in Part 2, I\u2019ll save my comments to that part of the debate very shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022497c1d7731274fd19d97d7db8ac0ea08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022497c1d7731274fd19d97d7db8ac0ea08\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, and his colleague Greg O\u2019Connor raised the issue of my own experience around contempt law. I\u2019m going to share it with the committee because it\u2019s absolutely relevant to this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI had a constituent, a husband and wife, that came to see me in the early 2000s, who had lost all access to their son. They hadn\u2019t seen, when they came to see me, their son for two years. They\u2019d never done anything wrong. They\u2019d never been investigated by Child, Youth and Family Service, and they were desperate to see their child. And, when I looked into the processes that had occurred around the Family Court, I was appalled. It was a M\u0101ori family, and when I read the reports that said, \u201COh well, they\u2019re a M\u0101ori family, so they\u2019re all different and they won\u2019t feel the same loss that other New Zealanders might have from their child.\u201D, I was appalled. And as a diligent constituency\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edc80ea0aed9425f9384537c69380825\u0022\u003EGreg O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I just wonder\u2014this is sounding like a plea in mitigation\u2014if it is appropriate that such a plea in mitigation be heard in these circumstances. Some guidance, please, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022208fcc01cb1947529c6cd6ea0ade644d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I really appreciate the advice. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea25b2eb40e04ce292032d0e002402f6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The reason it was so important was that, actually, the law was not working. The law was grossly unfair and actually, by New Zealanders having a debate about our court system failing a family, we actually were able to repair the law. In fact, two years later, the Parliament made a decision that we would amend the law to make it absolutely plain that that situation would never again occur in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAnd so my plea is this. There is an absolutely proper process that goes on in this Parliament. We try to write the very best laws we can. We then look at examples in our community and make judgments about where the law\u2019s working well and where it is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ea5c13bb18742648a27b807e33c76d3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Could you do a passing reference to the part we\u2019re debating\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d5c4621a6af401982e57252d468ed78\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, absolutely\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac20199edec149c8ba8f177542260b0f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014quite soon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282a23b4f69ac4204a9e1ef3b2b5ee9e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because this goes to the heart. This goes to the heart of the issue of contempt and whether people, when they criticise the courts and their decisions, should be charged with a criminal offence. And the Minister in the chair has said, \u201COh, this only happens if it is extravagant, outrageous criticism of judges.\u201D Well, that\u2019s not true. I invite people to look back at the record and to see exactly when Michael Cullen\u2014the Attorney-General, a member of the Government\u2014chose to send the toughest prosecutors in the land against an Opposition member of Parliament. So the issue at stake here is the issue of: do we want to create a criminal offence of contempt for when people have genuine concerns that our courts are not working, that our judges have made a fatal error? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAnd look, my experience is not the only one. Should people who champion the cause of\u2014whether it be David Bain or whether it be Arthur Allan Thomas, the courts sometimes make mistakes. And it is fundamental in a free democracy that people are able to express views about that and they are not threatened\u2014they are not threatened\u2014with a crime of contempt. And so I say to Mr Greg O\u2019Connor opposite: I know the Minister in the chair is not a constituency MP. He\u2019s never been able to win a constituency. He would not understand the importance of constituents, who sometimes come in your door and you are the last point of call. You are the only place where they might be able to get justice and for Parliament to say that\u2014whether it be a MP or whether it be a private citizen that\u2019s able to say, \u201CActually, the court system is not working. The law is wrong. There has been a mistake.\u201D\u2014and to be able to express that and debate that is absolutely essential for a free society and for this Parliament to actually be able to do its job of being constantly able to amend and reform the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAnd so that\u2019s where I bring us back to the very provisions of Part 1 and ask the committee to reconsider. If you really want to protect the integrity and enhance public confidence in our system, why do we disagree with the US Supreme Court, which so wisely said the respect for the judiciary will be made by the quality of its judgments and not making criminals of those who question the decisions that it\u2019s made? Why is it that we in New Zealand, when the UK has repealed it, where Canada, where the US, and where Australia do not have a criminal offence in this area\u2014why do members of this Government want to reduce the freedoms of speech that are available in those other jurisdictions and stop the proper process by which people can question the effectiveness of any State institution and have that proper debate and why are they overruling the recommendations of the select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00228fdb748ab3dd429f94fe6f0aed35d822\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fdb748ab3dd429f94fe6f0aed35d822\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I\u2019m not saying that it\u2019s outside the rules, but can I just suggest to all members that after 23 years of MMP we no longer insinuate that list MPs are second-class citizens. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adf0cd2b36dc44a582ffa6ebd156919f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a8296244f7443689e424ec2d5aa9897\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I\u2019m in the middle of a sentence. If you wouldn\u2019t mind holding your breath until I\u2019ve finished it. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s helpful to the order of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022eda4b4920a9b4a56a9f582d8ab51d444\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eda4b4920a9b4a56a9f582d8ab51d444\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. My point of order was that constituency MPs have a particular responsibility. That is something that I pointed out, and I think it\u2019s very odd for the Chair to be getting themselves involved in the debate, particularly after the quite derogatory comments from Mr Little and Mr O\u2019Connor, on which I sought to correct the record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2cd56a9297946ce86b398cda9ce1de8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2cd56a9297946ce86b398cda9ce1de8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I gave you a lot of leniency in that regard, actually, Dr Smith. I wasn\u2019t getting involved in the debate. I was commenting on the order of the committee and the contribution you had made, and I may have misinterpreted it, in which case I apologise. But I don\u2019t believe I did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022900efeb7fe074b05bea10efc5c96df58\u0022\u003EPart 2  Provisions to promote and facilitate administration of justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022629d38084a03486fab33fc6f23de4902\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022629d38084a03486fab33fc6f23de4902\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think this is the proper place where we should have the debate about my Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that reinserts a provision that was in the original bill as presented by the Hon Chris Finlayson and picked up by the Government. It is Supplementary Order Paper 289, and it adds back in the offence called the offence to publish false statements about a judge of the court. It\u2019s not about a criticism of the court, and the member the Hon Dr Nick Smith\u2019s contributions that talk about freedom of speech and say that we must be able to criticise\u2014of course we must be able to do that. But this is about making untrue statements about judges and courts, and it sets a very high threshold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt is very clear in new clause 24A, in subclause (1), that a person commits the offence if three things happen. A person \u201Cpublishes a false statement about a Judge\u201D\u2014not a criticism, but a false statement\u2014\u201Cor a court;\u201D. That means it has to bear upon something that is provably, factually wrong. That is what a false statement is\u2014not someone\u2019s genuinely held opinion but a false statement\u2014and the person has to have known or ought reasonably to have known that the statement could undermine public confidence in the judiciary, or \u201Cin the independence, integrity, impartiality, or authority of the judiciary\u201D. It is not just any old statement. It\u2019s a very high threshold. A person has to have known or reasonably ought to have known that it would have that effect. That also includes recklessness, and being reckless as to whether or not there was an undermining of confidence. Thirdly, in any prosecution under this provision, it has to be proven that there is a real risk that the statement could undermine public confidence in the independence, integrity, etc., of the judiciary. There is a fourth aspect and, you might say, a further safeguard, which is that any prosecution in relation to this has to be approved by the Solicitor-General. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo all of those things have to add up. This is when somebody makes an egregiously bad, wrongful statement, an un-factual statement, about a judge or the court that could cause an undermining of confidence, the person did so knowing that that could be the case or was reckless as to whether or not they did so, and the prosecution has to be approved by the Solicitor-General. All of those things have to happen. So what it does is set up a very high threshold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis is not about your common or garden \u201CI\u2019m disappointed in the outcome and didn\u2019t like what the Family Court judge did.\u201D This applies when there is a personal attack on a judge discharging their responsibilities, and what Dr Smith needs to know\u2014and the reason why he was not only prosecuted but was successfully convicted for his criminal action\u2014is that judges are not allowed to participate in public debate about the discharge of their responsibilities. They have one place to speak and that is in their court and that is through their decisions, and it absolutely stuns me to hear a member of Parliament try to claim in this House that they would be justified as an MP in attacking a judge in a way that attracts a conviction for contempt of court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThat member is a privileged member. He enjoys the privilege of this House. If he wants to influence what happens\u2014change the law that judges have to apply so that thing doesn\u2019t ever happen again\u2014he is one of the most privileged people in New Zealand, one of 120 privileged people in New Zealand who can come to this House and use the resources and his friendships and his networks with his colleagues to do so. But to launch a visceral attack on a judge\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00227449d8bb18e5485688e99365dedfbdd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227449d8bb18e5485688e99365dedfbdd2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, but the time has come for me to report progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill with amendment, the Copyright (Marrakesh Treaty Implementation) Amendment Bill without amendment, and progress on the Contempt of Court Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2019080667f9c9ae0b6f4f3597c8412a85e60e7c000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"