"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f806019652ad4501b9ab91042108a6a0\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 12 NOVEMBER 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b38682e8d5b45069cdad246078297ee\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 12 NOVEMBER 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d80b3607cf3642fb9b14f495a19fdb7f\u0022\u003EMinisterial Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dce4aa300fd94302bdc643dc6e1a7904\u0022\u003EFire and Emergency Services\u2014New South Wales Deployment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd6a09d3289e4364849d16d6f100da2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd6a09d3289e4364849d16d6f100da2f\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to make a ministerial statement on sending firefighters to New South Wales. The Government is closely watching the situation with these horrific fires, and our thoughts are with our neighbours across the Tasman during this challenging time. As of yesterday morning, there were 100 active bushfire-related incidents across Queensland and New South Wales. New Zealanders will remember the challenges faced during the Tasman wildfires earlier this year. During that event, Fire and Emergency New Zealand responded quickly and capably. We are thankful that no lives were lost here. The conditions being faced in Australia are unprecedented, and it\u2019s the first time since 2009, when the fire danger ratings were introduced, that catastrophic fire weather conditions are in place for the Greater Sydney area. Queensland has declared a state of fire emergency, and a total fire ban remains in place in New South Wales.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EToday, in support of Australian firefighters, Fire and Emergency is deploying 21 New Zealand firefighters to help fight the Queensland wildfires that have been raging for the past nine weeks. The New Zealand contingent of six three-person crews, consisting of two task force leaders and one liaison officer, will fly from Auckland this afternoon and begin operations on Wednesday. These crews are in addition to the six New Zealand personnel currently assisting in New South Wales. The request to provide this assistance is in recognition of the high regard in which our fire and emergency personnel are held internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ETheir deployment is part of the reciprocal arrangements we have with Australia, along with the US and Canada. We assist them when they need our help, and they are available to assist us if we need their support. In the past 12 months, 140 New Zealand firefighters have gone to help in Australia. Deployments such as this also provide valuable deployment opportunities, or development opportunities, for our personnel. Some of the lessons learnt over the past overseas deployments were put into practice at the Tasman fires in February.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EThe Government will continue to monitor the situation closely, and Fire and Emergency remain in contact with Australian fire authorities about their needs. The situation in Australia is changing rapidly, and deployment details are likely to change at short notice. I\u2019m sure the best wishes of the whole Parliament and all New Zealanders are with all the firefighters combatting these terrible fires in extremely challenging positions. Take care of yourselves, and we appreciate your efforts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022967c07b10959402fba7b43410f36f501\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00226c72bcf8c34e48258e197259ebdf9c21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c72bcf8c34e48258e197259ebdf9c21\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019ve lost his name. Stuart Smith\u2014I apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2560178055a457491e12f60d99aa331\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2560178055a457491e12f60d99aa331\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s all right, Mr Speaker. The National Party supports sending firefighters to Australia. Australia and New Zealand, whilst fierce rivals on the sporting field, have a long history of mateship off it, and it is important we support each other in tough times. We commend the decision to send firefighters to Australia to support and assist in whatever way we can and bring these fires under control as quickly as possible. We offer our best wishes to all these firefighters, both the New Zealanders travelling over and those already on the ground, and hope they all return home safely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022158f7041bd214878a04ef703e5de58bc\u0022\u003EReferendums Framework Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d4c6e81fa644d3c827774887213d50c\u0022\u003EDischarge from Justice Committee \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00225d6b1eaea1ec4b0794a8dd6fa562c4a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d6b1eaea1ec4b0794a8dd6fa562c4a8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Referendums Framework Bill has been discharged from the Justice Committee under Standing Order 295(3) and is set down for second reading from Thursday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b0d7f9989054e5792f670ea0f1ac493\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1afe009e9cf4b0bae0fafbab13bd365\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221be9a7726c65410da6ec916050bb7846\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f177ba9b445a4e4284225b04052bb669\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f177ba9b445a4e4284225b04052bb669\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s policies and statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u002202bbbbe50da94f0db0a011cfe78b9958\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202bbbbe50da94f0db0a011cfe78b9958\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes\u2014particularly the passing of the zero carbon Act last week, which was a significant milestone for this Parliament and for New Zealand. I would add that that joins other initiatives like the Green Investment Fund, investment in public transport, the focus on renewables and just transitions, and work around, for instance, focusing on incentivising low-emissions vehicles. I look forward to the ongoing cooperation and commitment of the Opposition to support initiatives that will actually fulfil the obligations set out in the zero carbon Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227550cb74e0254924bdca90e7674f2f97\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement on Thursday in the House that the promise to add 1,800 net new police wasn\u2019t a \u201Ccommitment or promise that the Prime Minister or anybody over here made.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e486f2c13d30473da73b2edff7ae7424\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I refer the member to the coalition agreement, which states we\u2019ll \u201Cstrive to ensure that there are 1,800 new front-line police.\u201D I\u2019m very pleased to say that, as at last week, we have 1,765 graduates. We are doing very well in heading towards that commitment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2759f1a9c0744a882a2992f7be6e827\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Was Stuart Nash wrong to answer multiple\u2014in fact, I think dozens\u2014of written and oral questions saying just that: that it was a commitment to 1,800 net new police, not just graduates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022617295430e6b440b9e88b8ff2ff18a72\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, as I say, the coalition agreement was around 1,800 new front-line police. However, not to be outdone, the Minister of Police has always had the ambition of making sure that it\u2019s also in addition. So we are, in fact, working towards both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287e53afb7cf244198253d3f1eae5c116\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: On what date did the Government first consider two targets for adding 1,800 net new police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a56b2206a8fa4c2183f1cc36caa10b18\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, it\u2019s all contained in the coalition agreement. I\u2019ll quote it once more: \u201Cstrive to ensure that there are 1,800 new front-line police.\u201D I relish in the opportunity to again announce that, as of last week, we have 1,765 graduates. Given that there are more officers on the front line than ever before, I would have thought that that member opposite would celebrate that fact with us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228e35a85d86e44a3ab9cde14bc102d50\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What happened between midday on 15 October, when Stuart Nash said their target was \u201C1,800 more police over and above the current rate, not 1,800 more graduates\u201D and 4 p.m. on 15 October when Winston Peters said it was only about 1,800 more graduates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022475810df047a43e1903d6714eba5b4af\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No matter what way you cut it, all the public hear are \u201Cmore police\u2014more front-line police\u201D, so I welcome these questions. Not only will we have 1,800 new, we also have been factoring in attrition and are working\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fed2c7db01c45b1911ce20ba6a5b803\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I hope this is embarrassing her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dac4dc595aa4d169b540a826c09710c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014to have them as additional, as well. The only thing that member should be embarrassed about is the reduction they had when he was in office. Police numbers are growing, and we are proud of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d60782de627048c49a406649aeb5f3a7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Just to be clear, Prime Minister: is it a fact that the Government is, in fact, ahead of schedule in providing these new 1,800 front-line police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1dbcbe93a334a60b16b716c48d127c5\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, as I say, 1,765 graduates\u2014obviously, not far away from hitting that 1,800. But, again, at the same time we want overall growth in those numbers. There are, of course, police officers who will retire and leave the police force, so we have an aspiration to go beyond that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022007aca55e7634504904d5f0b376ee81d\u0022\u003EHon Stuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister seen reports that the previous Government had a target of 880 police over four years, and we have delivered that in under two?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f80f0d63e84907aa68c2a03c85f34b\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: You haven\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d34c1def12a4799a79436a821a58680\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I would have ruled the question out but for the inappropriate interjection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dd6db7fae2543628e5d35dd70879cc8\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said, we are making up for what we consider to be neglect when it comes to the resourcing of our front line, and there are more officers on the front line than ever before, which was clearly something that we aspired to in that coalition agreement\u2014to increase those numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7c5cd23ea47442e9d47dea8ccc8cc9d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she know why the police commissioner answered \u201CNo\u201D to the following question: \u201CHave you had any communications that there were two targets relating to the 1,800 target?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d85efa2f1f42fb93ea3bba5dd6ff5f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, you won\u2019t hear any complaints from the police commissioner that we are both graduating 1,800 new police officers and working towards having an additional 1,800 as well. Again, no matter what way you cut it, this all adds up to more front-line police officers, which is only a good thing. And I am sad that the member opposite seems to disagree with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e31145104f7f4fd0972a830c135d9d48\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Are the words \u201Cno matter how you cut it\u201D code for \u201CYes, we have broken this promise.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a647ba7aefa14970a68bbf897e46dc9e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s code for \u201CWe\u2019re ahead of schedule.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bdb1fc0336e34b56aeeb8d9355894789\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00220c844538213b48ee8d74d1fbd1526484\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c844538213b48ee8d74d1fbd1526484\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all his policies and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022d33a3fc516384afd8617b40bd16bf0ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d33a3fc516384afd8617b40bd16bf0ae\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were made and taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022766ac50a0adc4c9abc37602049c237d8\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: What involvement, if any, has he had with the decision due on 5 December on capital requirements for banks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcd26bcd5d6c4bbd9a8785962afea75b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, could the member repeat the question? I just lost the middle bit of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230c89af747164491aa096043923a0639\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: What involvement, if any, has he had with the decision due on 5 December on capital requirements for banks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201c15535ed4349a88dc3c5ea322e7896\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is an independent decision of the Reserve Bank. I\u2019ve had a variety of meetings, over the last two years that I\u2019ve been in office, with representatives of trading banks, discussions with the Reserve Bank, and decisions with Treasury about it, but the decision is one for the Reserve Bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f0aa17e46c046d7bf190700d9ab70a8\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: So is it his policy that the Reserve Bank\u2019s independence in setting interest rates extends equally to complete independence on regulatory decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223708b08bae8c4b16bbecb5bcc5bd1e67\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a matter of my policy about that; it\u2019s a matter of what the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act actually says. Over the years, there\u2019s been an evolution in the responsibilities of the Reserve Bank beyond those that were there in 1989, as the member knows. We\u2019ve got a review of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act under way, and I would welcome a submission from him if he intends to break a 30-year consensus on the independence of the bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251a63c0c91c64bc280df0be7f5a89c23\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he not see a difference between independence on setting interest rates and on all the regulatory functions that have been recently added?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022306d6f7a40ab4bdda9594267c625b927\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a matter, again, of whether I see a difference in that; the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act sees no difference in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a174a96789b472aa01fac4819b219c7\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he have an opinion on the appropriate level of risk the Crown should take on behalf of New Zealanders in relation to a potential bank collapse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b7a92c915514fb0acdaa6f35d6fefb0\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that it is the responsibility of our central bank to ensure that we have a safe and effective banking system. They play a very important role in terms of regulation of our banking system. The Government will have opinions on that from time to time, but, I repeat, the decision is in the hands of the Reserve Bank. I think it is very interesting that the member opposite is now deciding that he might like to intervene in the independence of our central bank\u2014an interesting change of tune.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adee7982252e482e92e641f7c304ff07\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Has Treasury provided him with its best estimate of the effect that the new capital requirements, to be released on 5 December, will have on the cost of capital and access to capital?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022912c156ace2244bfbb8a13edc32392f2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve had a range of advice from Treasury on that. They continue to give me that advice. We continue to communicate with the Reserve Bank and, indeed, with other trading banks about those matters, but these are decisions that the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act mandate has been for them to take, not for politicians to take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0a794ed9c69408aab3fd3f525d8e21f\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Reserve Bank provided him with its best estimate of the effect of the new capital requirements on economic growth in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230ff9c22c46b41a09fd2452fee312397\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Reserve Bank has provided a wide range of information, including to the member, I believe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cd72370ffe7476bbecc0c499ea4da46\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have an estimate he believes for how many basis points the new Reserve Bank capital requirements will add to the average mortgage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258bbf5ec085245a19d63d7e9914c1dd7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Personally, I don\u2019t make those judgments; the Reserve Bank has published its judgments on those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022637f9c02db6a4a4699c397850ccf048b\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was whether he had a figure that he believed\u2014not who made the judgments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dde8b9a787d440b28f7c595e7b8b1183\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Minister has indicated that guessing at that is not his responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2bac1d175ce4c7da04cdc866a39c119\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What preparations can the Minister possibly make for the impacts of the Reserve Bank\u2019s new capital requirements if he has no idea what those impacts will be on the average mortgagee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222de6a105d6914ac98aabb08e6383cff9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is not what I said in my answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228468509afd394cdd87c07c8040a83718\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022040d0922b39c40088f227bf700f04a7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022040d0922b39c40088f227bf700f04a7a\u0022\u003ETAMATI COFFEY (Labour\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: He aha ng\u0101 r\u012Bpoata hou kua kitea e ia m\u014D te \u014Dhanga o Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E[What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6e24fce403e434d90392470926f4c27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6e24fce403e434d90392470926f4c27\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Atu k\u014Drero pai\u2014more good news. Last week, Stats NZ released labour market statistics which showed that wage growth, as measured by the labour cost index, reached its fastest annual growth in a decade in the September quarter. On a separate measure, average ordinary time hourly earnings rose by 4.2 percent in the September year. With annual inflation at 1.5 percent across the same period, it\u2019s clear that Kiwi workers are finally starting to see a real increase in wages after missing out for years under the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed5a3ab14234bf088f6b10d8fb045fd\u0022\u003ETamati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: What did the labour market report say about the scale of wage increases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022598170eaa2b54a33aed0c2ad4721b8c4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: According to the Stats New Zealand data, 59 percent of workers received an increase in salary and ordinary-time wage rates over the year to September. The last time the proportion was higher than this was over a decade ago. The proportion of workers that did not get a pay rise was at its lowest level in over a decade, and the proportion of workers who received a pay increase of more than 3 percent reached its highest in a decade. What this shows is that not only are average wages going up but wages are also going up for more people and by higher amounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e8a68b0f8194b71aaf7c694814e9286\u0022\u003ETamati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: How does wage growth in New Zealand compare with international counterparts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222291c7390f504e95b43f4c8962cc8602\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The latest OECD data shows that New Zealand\u2019s wage growth this year has outstripped the UK, the US, Japan, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, and the European Union average. This is yet another indication of the strength of the New Zealand economy compared to our international peers. Despite international headwinds and a slowing global economy, businesses are continuing to invest in their workers, meaning more money in the pockets of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002207382aecae6b4e949e0bd267222102d1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022fff7f9a036fc41cc94cc102b3c10c4e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fff7f9a036fc41cc94cc102b3c10c4e9\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does he stand by all of his statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002221dd108200124390ac10410107fe3867\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221dd108200124390ac10410107fe3867\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Absolutely. I particularly stand by the largest investment by a New Zealand Government in school property and the first national plan for managing school growth in classrooms: 2,000 more teachers being supported into teaching after inheriting a 40 percent decline in teacher training enrolments. I stand by the largest pay rise for teachers in a decade. I stand by the decision to make New Zealand history taught in all schools and kura by 2020, and I particularly stand by the decision to abolish NCEA fees for 168,000 young New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229f30f170fea4c4e8fbdcecd66e3ea2a\u0022\u003EHon Nikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: What is the total cost of today\u2019s Government announcements on Tomorrow\u2019s Schools, given his statement in April that the final Tomorrow\u2019s Schools task force report would be subject to rigorous cost-benefit analysis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c18c2aa6b6c54528b8334bcc45806350\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The cost of actually producing the report is 0.03 percent of the $9.5 billion a year that we spend on schooling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224881146058d14b92aaebf45d0b1eee93\u0022\u003EHon Nikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was: what is the total cost of the Government\u2019s announcements, not the task force report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243f500b64bfd46178d7f009463b47d72\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You mean the policies announced, not the cost of the announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a420e7b801a40c2a1dc0cc7b0db0172\u0022\u003EHon Nikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that was what my question was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dc82a8e828c466cbe994442a2ff3209\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Did the member say the \u201Cpolicy announcements\u201D or the \u201Cannouncement\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234f595e497224a76b0664493835e6659\u0022\u003EHon Nikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: I said the Government\u2019s announcements on Tomorrow\u2019s Schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240795167a88b41e7915b8473da401319\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think it has been answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247246787c3d94abdb4b88660671f212a\u0022\u003EHon Nikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that this is not about more centralisation and smothering of boards, given that he today has transferred all decision-making powers around enrolment schemes from boards to officials?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c3c8ab7d6c643bb9fa470ead107f9ee\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The decisions around enrolment schemes replicate the approach taken by the previous National Government with regard to enrolment schemes in Christchurch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022880400ec4ffc4f6c9d9293016f9fe4ea\u0022\u003EHon Nikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: Will he guarantee that it will not be mandatory for all of the 19,000 school boards of trustees in New Zealand to undertake training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213559110f7d642dd9f267de54590982d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has not decided to make training mandatory for school boards, and that\u2019s clear in the documentation we released today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293fb30d4ab9441bebf850665485cd703\u0022\u003EHon Nikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: Will he consider reversing some of his Tomorrow\u2019s Schools decisions today, given that there will be less parental choice in New Zealand as a result of enrolment decisions and too much power for officials?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226740a99304634630a8b5c062cd62d81e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I completely reject the premise of the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d24dda19327549d9a682e6990b980aff\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022396d67c2ba8e4011a2fe60e2e6a64464\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022396d67c2ba8e4011a2fe60e2e6a64464\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he believe the financial performance of DHBs has improved since he wrote to all DHB chairs at the end of last year expressing \u201Cdisappointment with their collective financial performance\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6113e44f4e84883a06e032ec63c28e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6113e44f4e84883a06e032ec63c28e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Financial performance varies from DHB to DHB. Nine DHBs ended their 2018-19 year with a result close to budget or an improved result, if we exclude one-off costs. However, overall deficits have increased, due overwhelmingly to the historical underpayment of staff under the Holidays Act, which dates back as far as 2010. Just last month, that was estimated to cost DHBs $590 million, causing more than half of the overall deficit. But following audit work, I\u2019ve been advised this week that that figure, relating to the previous Government\u2019s neglect, has now climbed to $756.8 million. I make no apology for cleaning up the mess I inherited with the historical underpayment of staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277683688f387439db3f04dc982b99141\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what has led to the $500 million deterioration of DHB finances that isn\u2019t related to the Holidays Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e080a6bb7106408fbb20441434d6276e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: A good question. It is indeed the neglect of the previous Government when balance sheets started to run out in 2013, and the trend since that time has been clear. We make no apology for hiring additional staff: 1,500 more nurses in the system than when I became Minister, nearly 600 more doctors, and over 500 more allied health workers. We are cleaning up the mess that we inherited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217435932e77a42b1983ba8ff8a34adca\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if money is the solution, why did he increase cost pressure funding for DHBs by just $20 million in Budget 2019 and reduce equity support for DHB deficits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca24e4070d6e4bffabeb208c453b1af6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d have to check the member\u2019s numbers on the former, but in terms of equity support, of course, equity support is what Governments past and present do to ensure liquidity to make sure staff are paid. It\u2019s business as usual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022314f942789264241a81b1978bf05121c\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Will he admit that despite his rhetoric of funding increases, funding increases have not kept pace with cost increases, especially in staff costs, and that has led to the dramatic deterioration in DHBs\u2019 financial position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3f2883b362c413a9df07818572356c7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: What I can confirm is that the $2.3 billion that they stripped out when they were in Government is something that I have inherited to clean up, and so we have put in a record amount in the 2018 Budget. The member\u2019s right. We have increased funding to the health sector. We put even more in in 2019. We make no apology for dealing with the mess that we inherited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296b402bb781d4282b92036df829f48df\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Has he received a report on DHBs\u2019 combined financial performance for the period 1 July to 30 September 2019, and does that indicate an improvement or deterioration in their financial situation compared with the same period in the previous year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223abfea6b455f4f869cbdcff99f22e155\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have all of those details in front of me. If the member wants to put down a more detailed question like that, I\u2019d happily make sure it\u2019s answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022101f5002ffd34dea99ef42a3c0da7ef0\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if he\u2019s so worried about financial performance, why does he not know whether the last-quarter performance has improved or deteriorated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227952d7613c734ee399ba9480703b52a7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Each quarter has different, of course, details across all the DHBs. DHB performance varies. As I said at the outset, some DHBs have met their budget in the past financial year\u2014for example, once those one-offs that relate to historical neglect are taken into account. Different DHBs have different outcomes. We make no apology for intervening in those DHBs that are not performing. We\u2019ve put Crown monitors into three DHBs; we\u2019ve put a commissioner in in the Waikato. DHBs have to continue to deliver services even though they\u2019re dealing with historical neglect. We make no apology for dealing with the mess that we\u2019ve inherited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ece7bc9fe364c638cee80f8ce35186c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u0022396595646b90470285c1bab49d138ef7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022396595646b90470285c1bab49d138ef7\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: What are the findings of the Oranga Tamariki Practice Review into the Hastings Case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e69bc1600d244f6a8b50bee7457572df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e69bc1600d244f6a8b50bee7457572df\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E The review says that there were legitimate reasons to be concerned about the safety of the baby, and so Oranga Tamariki were right to be involved with the family. However, practice standards and actions both before and during the events of May show significant failings. The events in May should not have happened, and the trauma caused to all involved could have been avoided if there had been more effort placed on building good relationships with both the parents and the wh\u0101nau, as well as the NGO workers and midwives who were also supporting this family. Too much reliance was placed on historical information, without acknowledging changes the family had made to minimise safety concerns for baby, and the systems in place to check decisions didn\u2019t work. The findings are extremely disappointing, but I do want to commend the review and the reviewers for their honesty. It confirms the need to press on with the changes that began under the previous Government, and all the changes under this Government, to look after children better and to stop them coming into care in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281f2fa4ba17c40aba430fee132311c2a\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: What changes have been made in light of the review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022884af2764b4a4a0595461683eae55248\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: All of the recommendations of the review have been accepted by Oranga Tamariki, and it has put five changes in place immediately. These are: unless there is a clear need for action to protect a child from immediate and imminent danger, all interim custody order applications will now be made on notice, to ensure the family is given the opportunity to have their say before a judge makes a final decision; when staff need to act faster to keep a child safe, every section 78 without notice application will go through additional checks, with a regional legal manager, a site manager, and a practice manager all signing off; additional investment will be made into staff training nationwide and greater supervision for family group conferences; practice leaders on every site will look at all reports of concern for unborn and newborn babies, and check that we put the right planning and assessment around vulnerable mothers at the earliest opportunity; and in Hastings, more resources and training will be provided to staff, and a new regional supervisor has been appointed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228874257ae54d4c86949c3ec74788ef25\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: What further changes do you see as necessary as a result of the findings of this review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022475475a2a6de4c79801981608e0c8330\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I don\u2019t find any necessary, but the Minister may answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022257e79e5daff463d8f4c8d554d297dab\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: In addition to the changes already announced, I have informed Oranga Tamariki of my expectations to review the subsequent child provisions to make sure there are no unintended consequences from these. I also want to ensure there is a path back for those parents who have turned their lives around, to improve the internal complaints process, and to drive the culture change and better support the front line. I also expect them to improve relationships with, and devolve over time, the delivery of services to hap\u016B, iwi, and M\u0101ori organisations, especially in the area of prevention and early intervention. The staff I meet are absolutely committed to caring for children, and they have a really difficult job doing just that, but front-line practice has to reflect the bigger changes we want to make. We need to do better for all our children, but our focus must be to partner with M\u0101ori to turn results around for M\u0101ori. Strategic partnerships, real partnerships with iwi and M\u0101ori organisations so they are involved in helping families and children much earlier and at every stage\u2014these are vital to achieve these outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce9923a293b84a92896f7ffff0120ba4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Social Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022a205056b793444868e1634408ec7ff52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a205056b793444868e1634408ec7ff52\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: Does she stand by all her policies and statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7764aeebd8c4cecb3a757a5d67da361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7764aeebd8c4cecb3a757a5d67da361\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in particular the statement I made in the House last week during question time that the previous Government had budgeted for 300 less case managers during their time from 2015. This was despite a growing demand for hardship assistance, housing support, and an increasing number of senior citizens requiring support. I therefore stand by this Government\u2019s policy to fund an additional 263 work-focused case managers through the 2019 Budget. This Government is focused on ensuring that those New Zealanders who need support with both financial assistance and support into upskilling, training, and employment are able to get the help that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cbb0c586ef347579e0c683c6b18a3b2\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Why has her department only helped 147 young people to secure a driver\u2019s licence in the past four months, out of the Prime Minister\u2019s commitment of 2,500?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ade628f77c248ec87478f7c09f2f71f\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: The MSD has significant programmes running across the country now to support New Zealanders to get a driver\u2019s licence. I don\u2019t know the figures that that member is speaking to, but there are a number of programmes and I wouldn\u2019t be surprised if she\u2019s only alluding to one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022963c79630b5641f3b954e6875e96c093\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Prime Minister that this is\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Ca small investment that can go a long way\u201D; and, if so, would she say the current figures show this is a small investment that\u2019s barely going anywhere?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022accaf76c08e34a7e96aab87b58dccd14\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I would question the figures that the member has come to the House with. There are a range of programmes that are being run across the country to support New Zealanders to get a licence, because we see that as an important way to support them into employment. What I will refer to is actually a statement made by the principal of Manurewa High School on breakfast TV last week, where he thanked MSD. He thanked the Auckland regional commissioner for the work that we\u2019re doing on driver licensing and cited the important role that it\u2019s playing in the lives of Manurewa High School students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e934f6d57ff64203a7530c69300bc818\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government still intending to deliver their promise to provide driver licensing to every high school student when they\u2019re struggling to support two and a half thousand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287e567ca014a4ac9b63e1e0bc6e7d8b3\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I would question the numbers that that member has come to the House with. We are being very deliberate with our support towards young people, and it\u2019s a pity that the previous Government didn\u2019t see fit to invest in drivers\u2019 licences for young people and for New Zealanders. For the young people I\u2019ve spoken to who have already benefited from, say, the programme that\u2019s run between MSD and the Auckland chamber of commerce, I\u2019ve had very, very positive feedback.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d55cdd13e849aa8f86bc078aaf6393\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister to outline the substance\u2014the huge platform of achievement\u2014that she inherited from the previous administration on this subject? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227829555ea97949f08905e9ddc0d0fa47\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Very little investment by the other side of the House with respect to supporting young people to get their drivers\u2019 licences\u2014in fact, supporting young people at all. I think all of us in this House can recall the former leader of the National Party saying that young people in New Zealand were \u201Cpretty damned hopeless\u201D. We don\u2019t feel that way on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d51d1d0daa59456b9f5868dffd977e36\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Is this driver-licensing policy an example, like KiwiBuild and Mana in Mahi, where the Government simply has over-promised and under-delivered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e9033156e364927a7dbc1299f58751d\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very proud of the investment that we are making into young people. There is a lot of effort that\u2019s been put into making sure that young people get access to drivers\u2019 licences, but not just that. When you look at the entire programme that has been rolled out from this side of the House, then you see that, actually, we\u2019re taking young people very seriously and we\u2019re taking their potential very seriously. We know the role that they have to play in ensuring that New Zealand is the very best New Zealand moving forward, which is why we invested in things like Mana in Mahi and which is why we will continue to invest in drivers\u2019 licences for young people in New Zealand as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f33170b911e047b89e4de5ba4c6b395e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca9a395d9281452b89f4caf823a1daf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca9a395d9281452b89f4caf823a1daf2\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Transport: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022638ae44a58d44644b3c642472711c59c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022638ae44a58d44644b3c642472711c59c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Minister of Transport) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Associate Minister of Transport: On behalf of the Minister, yes, in the context they were made and taken, and I particularly stand by our record investment in walking and cycling: $390 million in the last three years. That\u2019s $96 million more than the previous Government spent. We\u2019ve already built 194 kilometres of walking and cycling paths, and there\u2019s a lot more to come. And our record investment in safety\u2014an example of that is $1.4 billion upgrading 3,300 kilometres of the country\u2019s highest-risk roads, that is expected to prevent 160 deaths and serious injuries each year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022846862fadae346f0872ba6cb23dcab53\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Has she asked the New Zealand Transport Agency why the draft board minutes for 23 August 2019 say that management has raised with Ministers the desire to not apply the \u201Cfeebate\u201D for electric cars to one- and two-star safety-rated cars, when she said last week that didn\u2019t happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262a3e2146f7149c8be084d11ebf7e97a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, as I said in the House last week, I disagree with the characterisation in those draft board minutes, and I raised those concerns with the Ministry of Transport. I\u2019ve asked the Ministry of Transport to work through those points with the transport agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022101b4c07409b462998814a8d7518ee2f\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was a very direct one about whether or not she\u2019s asked the New Zealand Transport Agency why the draft board minutes say that, and I don\u2019t think that was addressed at all in the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202891e5a01ad4be0aa8ada1641341251\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to ask the Minister to answer it again. I think, on behalf of the Minister, he came quite close in that he said that he asked the ministry to work it through, I think, with the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA). But I think the question was about direct contact, and, therefore, if the Minister who is acting for the Minister at the moment has the fact, he should give it, and if he doesn\u2019t have that fact, he should indicate that he doesn\u2019t. He doesn\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225d24e0b5b9d4cb3b394e9f43d77e963\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she say the Opposition was desperately scaremongering over criticism of the Government\u2019s proposal to subsidise one- and two-star safety-rated cars, when the Transport Agency reportedly warned her of their concern over that exact same thing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d04e7e2c52d41b68e64465c9f9924f1\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, because they clearly are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022786e71176a0b410ba2a5a927a7f24482\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: In answering that supplementary, did he just repeat what Grant Robertson told him to say, word for word? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba397e629d6a4a4e86775520e77cbcd1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022399ac139220746d18e30a350c8745a5b\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re the puppet master. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ec904ce3a3c4cc9a9b2c081c75d294f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am certainly no such thing. The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230076ef2a93f43758ad460b05d2968ce\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d309ea6ca0244ad9c39a24d6e9f4366\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Why does her ministerial diary for July 2019 say that her meeting on 25 July 2019 with Patrick Reynolds and Minister Twyford finished at 7.30 p.m., when a recent written question to me says it finished at 8 p.m.? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb79eee99bcf4c88a464a051e2668d5b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, because that\u2019s what the diary says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbee5ac0ab4d45b0acfd796fd4ba733a\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Did she discuss the composition of, or possible appointments to, the New Zealand Transport Agency board at her 25 July meeting with Patrick Reynolds and Minister Phil Twyford? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e09b4715bb2a48538c85eb265346e9a4\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9bccef172ca4372ab117d023c8aab28\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002266b8fd18a8db46699e28216dc7f67ddf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266b8fd18a8db46699e28216dc7f67ddf\u0022\u003EJAN TINETTI (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What changes, if any, is the Government making to strengthen the system of governance, management, and administration of schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8bcd318a0364cd2b18c24fcc96de3ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8bcd318a0364cd2b18c24fcc96de3ae\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The Government\u2019s reform of the Tomorrow\u2019s Schools system will put more front-line support closer to schools so that they can give every child the best chance to succeed. We\u2019re making pragmatic and workable improvements that we believe will gain broad support. Our changes will influence how the Government\u2019s $9.5 billion schooling budget is spent, and it will result in better targeted and earlier support for boards, stronger leadership support structures for school principals and leaders, and a reset of the relationship between schools and the Ministry of Education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a02bc6deff7340c09c0d0e6d50e71102\u0022\u003EJan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: What, if anything, will these changes mean for school leaders? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c16f94e12334e0ebd370bdc3f3d04f1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: One of the key pieces of feedback that we\u2019ve had from school leaders for some time is that the role of the principal in particular can be very isolated and isolating. Through the reform announced today, we\u2019ll be providing a leadership centre and support for local leadership advisors to better support school principals; there\u2019ll be new minimum principal eligibility requirements; and we\u2019ll be giving stronger incentives to school principals to lead schools that are underperforming or isolated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cd16ba19bf74360be93e10552b9f7b1\u0022\u003EJan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: What, if anything, will these changes mean for boards of trustees? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6d5467d6bd6450686d7cb4047fa4c3f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The board of trustees model\u2014the idea of self-governing schools\u2014will continue. Boards of trustees will have more support and guidance, they\u2019ll have access to more training and support needs for their identified areas of improvement, a code of conduct will be put in place for school boards of trustees, and they\u2019ll have a more balanced set of objectives. Enrolment zone decisions will also now be made on a local or regional basis, rather than on an individual school basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251a50c0afcb84d4f84d5304af978bea3\u0022\u003EJan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: What, if anything, will these changes mean for parents and learners? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e3a0af4cf5d4469a0b241983dcbb78b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: One of the most visible things that will change is that parents and students will have access to free local complaints and dispute resolution panels where they have serious disputes with a school. This is something I know school boards of trustees will also welcome. School communities will have a stronger voice in how school rules are set. Schools currently have a significant regulation-making power but no duty or obligation to consult with their local communities on how they use that. It\u2019s a bit of an aberration in that regard in the regulatory space, and the reforms will address that. Overall, this will provide more support to parents, to learners, to school leaders, to school boards, and to school communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022333c04ce87fd4131826ba3b01ddcb8e2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Public Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022803a4d1feaf84a158feb50c5b444d55d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022803a4d1feaf84a158feb50c5b444d55d\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Housing (Public Housing): Does he stand by all his policies and statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0a98ad014314ff3bdc4c2b6e95d8b23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0a98ad014314ff3bdc4c2b6e95d8b23\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Associate Minister of Housing (Public Housing)):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. In particular, I stand by my statement to the Kapi-Mana News when I warned that National\u2019s plan to sell State houses in a fire sale would not lead to good outcomes for any of those tenants. At the time, I underlined that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249d8c7e5e0e544dfaa4d5ea1aa18bb1b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I want an assurance that that was a statement as a Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d8d5fd1638541c4bf1ffb4e1aeda684\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was four years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227140b4960fcc4c7ea9580b98978affd8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member will resume his seat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4fcee420f6e4584afe258e70b4b41b0\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the Government\u2019s removal of upfront funding for community housing providers and that it\u2019s meant 500 property developments are sitting idly, \u201Cgathering dust,\u201D as put forward by the Monte Cecilia Housing Trust? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292b437946ace4c60935526306ecafb14\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with the policy. That policy change has meant that community housing providers around the country now have access to deal with the increasing demand that this Government inherited and the increasing waiting list. That has meant that not just in Auckland, community housing providers can get access to that funding. Also, areas like Northland, like the Hawke\u2019s Bay, like Rotorua, and like Wellington, that have extremely high demand for that housing, get access to it too. It\u2019s meant we\u2019ve been more flexible to more community housing providers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280d8b7fe09eb4ac6b332c66574cb2e67\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister make that statement when community housing providers such as Monte Cecilia are saying they do not have the funding to build the homes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b8c9fca9aef498695e3753e64d7b23c\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s quite easy, because we\u2019ve changed our policy in order to use that money to make it more available to housing providers not just in Auckland. We are making that money more available to help community housing providers\u2014again, nice and slowly\u2014in the likes of Northland, in the likes of Rotorua, in the likes of Hawke\u2019s Bay, and in the likes of Wellington, where there is increasing need for demand, as there is also in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0b5c0f4245d4f9593edb6920d534081\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister reconcile the claim of former housing Minister Phil Twyford that he wanted community housing groups to build 30 percent of new public houses planned by 2022 and the Government now withdrawing the funds to do so? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226747ffe5931b485e820bc74213f78d1b\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: I disagree that we\u2019ve withdrawn the funds to do so. We\u2019ve just made it more available to community housing providers across the country, and I\u2019m quite happy to give that member a list of 18 community housing providers up and down New Zealand who are making sure that they can provide for the increasing demand in areas other than Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7d64c8950f5474bb5b20f2c5b7f7723\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister have to say to 500 or more families stuck in motels and transitional housing who could have been tenanted if funding was not removed, as put forward by community housing providers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224395bb8230f94927943b29490d60c444\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d say to those people that we have put 3,381 more community housing places in place since we\u2019ve come into Government, as opposed to the 1,400 fewer public housing places that came about under the previous Government. I\u2019m also proud that this Government, in Budget 2018, committed to the building of 6,400 more community housing places to deal with the increasing demand and the waiting lists that we inherited from a Government that sat on its hands and did nothing for nine years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225b6e5552e40441c7b580000f4793cbc4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4e77f9a967646f99ab98f5163c733cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4e77f9a967646f99ab98f5163c733cb\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does he agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement regarding the 1,800 police target that the Commissioner of Police \u201Cgot it wrong\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002264b31c99fc43468a95a304aa35603d4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264b31c99fc43468a95a304aa35603d4a\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement that the target for 1,800 is not net. It is new police, as per the coalition agreement. I also agree with the Commissioner of Police, who, in this year\u2019s annual review, stood by his statements he made for the 2018 annual review that police are recruiting to account for attrition and that Budget 2018 funded them for this and that they are on track to achieve this under the current funding envelope. In the select committee last week, members of that party were glowing in their praise for the work of the commissioner and thanked him for his service to his face, but no sooner had he left the room than they stabbed him in the back, and I find that extremely disappointing and disrespectful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220707d850041143e7be17463421d3f7e2\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that in response to an annual review question prior to October of this year\u2014\u201Chave you had any communications that there were two targets related to the 1,800 target?\u201D\u2014the Commissioner of Police said \u201CNo.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202fd6af698644af48953409fa8cb1063\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: I wasn\u2019t at the select committee, but I do look forward to seeing a transcript and to getting a reliable and contextual version of what was said. I will also note that the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister are the only two who have control over the coalition agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f2e55db8a6b435183f0e81dacec0c25\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: When had he previously had discussions directly with the Commissioner of Police, prior to October 2019, about the fact that there are two targets for 1,800 police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f93d56f7918843e287ebc670a35883d6\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Let me make this very clear once again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b218f1281eef42309c3acbb379f7f7a0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Just answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221359ed54932434683fc4d5117bf86d1\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m about to answer the question, Dr Smith. Listen and you might learn something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217350781c77b461ba0cab42a23522e05\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And Dr Smith will stay in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b55fd5271ee049d8845df53b8ffd5e82\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: In the coalition agreement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a761b9672859471385b934631a712619\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Answer the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bb5646bef774d728a305070f9fb6ad9\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014it states\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e6687a150ec4c98a48de553adc2aec4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume his seat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245354487945e491fb99816c7fb37905f\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Commissioner of Police saying that the target for 1,800 new police includes attrition, when the Prime Minister is saying that the target does not mean 1,800 additional police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1f52c7b0ce842128fb6defa7cebdd4a\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Listen up, Brett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022129d8e61bd474b6f8972d9384e2a9fcc\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Look, listen up. In the coalition agreement, it talks about 1,800 new police. That is the coalition agreement that we signed with New Zealand First. It is what this Government has said that we will deliver, and we were about a year ahead of target. However, what the Minister of Finance has funded is 1,800 over and above. So there are two targets. There have always been, and I have always reported on these two targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251b5f9c1bbe64bb881041da75df1b95f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef51708d210846a2bde4d6f1c6fa048b\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. Can he confirm\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c654bc7950f94e87a7c92511e1fd6a81\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member doesn\u2019t have the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b48b53a1387b4cbd9e80c4fba82b9e96\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister: why does he not just refer this matter to the Minister of Education, who could give an explanation of what words mean and get rid of this nonsense in the House every day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca0cf7a74bb046ab99176921ca4a54c2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223585c6606864055bd83dd375d2563a7\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy to answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2f2df5e17414cbd924e3611c1578d04\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I think, at any stretch, that\u2019s not this Minister\u2019s responsibility. It might be my wish, but it\u2019s not this Minister\u2019s responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bac54bfb90248809fb63e006ad461a0\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that the Government will not have added 1,800 new police, inclusive of attrition, by the end of this parliamentary term?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228642a9969d9d47c182cae4d62bcf1de0\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that this Government will have added 1,800 new police on 21 November, almost a year ahead of schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dcd64f6f15e2456ea6d607eae7216a1b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3a3e7748d614118a82ae9f4b7995689\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3a3e7748d614118a82ae9f4b7995689\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What recent announcements has he made about improving public safety by restricting unlawful access to firearms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002285a83dc0a70c413ba5f3853745d50608\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285a83dc0a70c413ba5f3853745d50608\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, I announced the release of a public consultation document on firearm prohibition orders, or FPOs. The FPOs seek to target our country\u2019s most violent and despicable criminals, and the FPO regime will make sure that we further mitigate the risk of these people having any opportunity to be around, or get access to, firearms. FPOs would stop violent criminals from being around those who have firearms, from using them under supervision, or from having access to them. FPOs set conditions that these people have to follow and allows police to monitor the conditions and create penalties for the breaches. FPOs would come at a potential cost to the human rights protections, such as the right to be secure against unreasonable search. That\u2019s why any such regime would need to be carefully balanced, and that\u2019s why we want to hear from the public about where they think the line should be drawn. The consultation document is on the Police\u2019s website and submissions are open until Monday, 13 January. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206a7f1d5d4bf49fa9da15295f3326c01\u0022\u003EGreg O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: What reaction has he seen from those who work with victims of family harm? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223136fe39362a4396ab34afcc032188c8\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Police attend a family harm incident once every four minutes. In the year to September, police responded to 128,000 family harm incidents\u2014an increase of 19 percent on the previous year. It is also estimated that police turn up to over 200 events a month where a firearm is involved. Rob McCann, the manager of the White Ribbon campaign against violence to women, said, \u201CFirearm prohibition orders could make a real difference if guns are kept out of the hands of people with a history of family harm. \u2026 Firearm prohibition orders might also provide the peace of mind to help a victim leave a violent relationship. \u2026 Knowing that a partner was not able to possess or own a weapon might give someone the courage to get out, and it might even save a life.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228003922f63a941c7a3d94977a112d406\u0022\u003EGreg O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has the Minister seen about previous proposals for firearm prohibition orders? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226394a7a0f7944c7a8f7a138ef12cbefb\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen some criticism that we are sitting on our hands and that we should not consult and that we should have supported a member\u2019s bill that would have introduced FPOs. However, I quote from advice received from Police about the National Party member\u2019s bill: \u201CThe provisions in the bill are insufficient to meet its objectives of preventing gang members from possessing firearms.\u201D The Attorney-General at the time was also concerned that the bill included no explicit link between gang membership and relevant offences. The proposals we are consulting on would target people who are at most risk of causing significant harm through the criminal use of firearms. This applies whether a person is a member of a gang or not. Not all serious violent criminals wear patches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb6a8fcd44f04d3584bcd2404222a97e\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can I ask the Minister if he was quoting from an official document, and, if so, could that be tabled please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252c183d93c304af0a013b4d08cc08414\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Minister quoting from an official document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204384fa7c05841348ce36760bb146a8a\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: No. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff8ace9aa87e48c3848f8ca10daa1fe7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! It might surprise some members, but some members prepare before they come to the House and come with briefing notes\u2014you know, it\u2019s not a bad habit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a26dd6bfe95470d87aa87b8de7b52ab\u0022\u003EParliamentary Agencies Delegations Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002220bc3fc51de54c729f3a0005e81a2807\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022664414a3dc3b4813abf3e9019d36b452\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022664414a3dc3b4813abf3e9019d36b452\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to take all provisions of the bill as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002286048ced83504ca09274a83bbf9c77d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286048ced83504ca09274a83bbf9c77d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022432321fa7edc4339a17ae982e1d6c246\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002275c773153d6148b197998c5be149f0da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275c773153d6148b197998c5be149f0da\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E As I outlined in my earlier contributions on the Parliamentary Agencies Delegations Legislation Bill, it is an incredibly simple bill. It provides for the Office of the Clerk of the House of Representatives and the head of the Parliamentary Service to delegate responsibilities to each other\u2019s employees where it\u2019s appropriate to do that. The bill was not amended by the Governance and Administration Committee. I thank them for their consideration of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere are two amendments that are set out on Supplementary Order Paper 407 that I do ask the committee to consider. The Statutes Amendment Act that the House passed a couple of weeks ago amended the Parliamentary Service Act 2000 to change the title of the head of the service from General Manager to Chief Executive. So the Supplementary Order Paper that\u2019s now on the Table updates the terminology in this bill to reflect the change that\u2019s already been made in the Statutes Amendment Bill. Other than that, I don\u2019t have any matters to bring to the committee\u2019s attention, although I\u2019m happy to answer any questions, should there be any from members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022604382939fba4312b9cb5f223e3f28f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022604382939fba4312b9cb5f223e3f28f3\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to thank the Minister, Chris Hipkins, for his detailed explanation of the reasons for the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP), which the National Party will support as it is\u2014this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI would take the opportunity, though, in providing further confirmation of that support, to express a caveat that I did in the second reading\u2014perhaps the Minister wasn\u2019t in a position to be able to receive that\u2014which was the concern that, despite the reassurances both in the regulatory impact statement and in the Governance and Administration Committee\u2019s report, the wording of the bill does go further than the intention of the bill. It certainly intended that there are administrative, back-office functions that will benefit from cooperation between the Parliamentary Service and the Office of the Clerk which, strictly speaking, isn\u2019t presently available, but, nevertheless, both clauses 4 and 6 go broader than that, actually. They talk about the delegation, effectively, of any functions or powers of a person from one organisation to the other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI accept the explanation from the Clerk in his submission in the select committee, and also the assurances of the Minister in second reading that that\u2019s not the intention, but I do draw the committee\u2019s attention to the fact that those clauses are quite wide-ranging, and, therefore, could, in the future, actually, be broadened past the intention that is being brought by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EWith those caveats, though, it\u2019s not my intention to amend or tighten the clause. I just wanted to point that out and I certainly support the SOP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 407 in the name of the Hon Chris Hipkins be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2 and clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c95bb3bb6f8476c8aabec8c4c5bfbec\u0022\u003EFarm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ff0dafe9a1124f098536cf14b366190e\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002292d5f8f6b4fd47689688adc8efdda13d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292d5f8f6b4fd47689688adc8efdda13d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, That the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Primary Production Committee for their work and consideration of this bill. I thank farmers and lenders for their support of this bill and their recognition of its importance. Their input will ensure the scheme is tailored to meet the needs of New Zealand farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EFarm debt has grown dramatically in the last 20 years and now sits at more than $62 billion. The Government knows how important farmers, their families, and rural communities are to our economy and country, and that is why we\u2019ve developed the farm debt mediation scheme. We want farmers and their families to be on a level playing field with creditors when it comes to talking about difficult and complex financial issues. This bill is about supporting farmer wellbeing, which the Government is committed to doing through this bill and elsewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to take the opportunity to acknowledge our coalition partners, New Zealand First, for their contribution to this significant piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe farm debt mediation scheme\u2019s two key objectives are, firstly, for farmers and secured creditors to constructively and objectively explore options for business turn-around and, secondly, to provide for a timely and dignified exit for those where few other options exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere are three parts to the bill. Part 1 sets out the scope of the scheme and which activities, debts, and actions will be captured. Part 2 addresses restrictions for enforcement action on farm debt while setting out the mediation process. Part 3 outlines provisions relating to farm debt mediators and mediation organisations under the scheme. It is proposed that the preliminary provision set out in Part 1 of the bill and the provisions relating to approving mediation organisations and authorising mediators in Part 3 come into force in February 2020, with the rest of the bill coming into force in July 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe committee has recommended that the bill proceed with a number of changes that are designed to enhance the implementation of the scheme, some of which I will cover today. I support all the changes recommended by the select committee. The Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2) will support a broad range of farmers and growers engaged in activities ranging from agriculture, including sharemilking, horticulture, aquaculture, viticulture, and apiculture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe mediation process is designed to address the power imbalance between creditors and farmers. This will be aided by the use of an impartial, experienced mediator who will create an environment where parties can meet in a respectful and constructive manner. The scheme is designed so that creditors must offer mediation to farmers before they can take action on a default. The definition of \u201Cenforcement action\u201D has been tightened to recognise the range of actions creditors take to move on a debt, and that will now trigger mediation. Farmers can request mediation as they identify the need. The bill has been strengthened to strongly encourage creditors to accept mediation requests from farmers. We know, from similar Australian schemes, that early mediation brings about discussions that maximise the chance of successful business turn-around and assists the development of lasting resolution of financial issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased to report that New Zealand banks have signalled their willingness to adopt the mediation process and will strive to identify opportunities for early mediation. Minor amendments to the bill make clear that multiparty mediations will be accommodated by this scheme. The nature of farm debt means it often involves a number of creditors, guarantors, and complex ownership arrangements. Mediation may bring together spouses, business partners, and guarantors with multiple creditors to plan for the future of the farming business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EMediator cost will be shared equally between parties until a farmer\u2019s contribution reaches $2,000. Above that, in order to recognise the financial vulnerability and stress on farmers going through mediation, any additional mediator cost will be borne by the creditors involved in the mediation. The Ministry for Primary Industries is also exploring options available to support financially distressed farmers in meeting the cost of financial and other professional advice that they may need to prepare to ensure meaningful participation in the mediation process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn response to a number of submissions, there will now also be an opportunity for creditors to apply to the High Court to take emergency action where there is a significant risk to animal welfare, to environmental damage or crop wastage, or destruction of property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI believe the bill has been enhanced through the Primary Production Committee\u2014and I once again want to thank them and their process\u2014in a way that respects and preserves the key principles of good faith, of cooperation, and of balancing of power. These and other changes recommended by the select committee reflect a balanced and careful consideration of a wide range of comments received from submitters on this bill. The changes enhance the bill and ensure it is tailored to the needs of New Zealand farmers and the rural communities within which they live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EJust briefly, I\u2019ll outline some of the background. This issue has been around for a long time. In the 1990s\u2014I have to speak up for Gray Eatwell, who was an individual farmer taking on banks at that time. I\u2019d like to mention Janette Walker, who, in the 2000s, was a person who was championing the cause for farmers and debt and stress. For a number of reasons, I guess decisions were made to leave it in the hands of the two parties involved in the transactions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut I think we have reached a stage now with a level of debt across the agricultural sector\u2014provided by banks, of course, two willing parties\u2014that is creating quite a bit of stress, and we acknowledge that stress across the sector. If you are a farmer with a huge debt, then you\u2019re unlikely to stand up and criticise, I guess, the bank that has loaned you the money. So the reality is that there\u2019s an imbalance in discussions when it comes to a position of financial pressure. We have acknowledged that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve worked with our coalition partners, who seized on an opportunity to introduce a bill. We sat down and discussed the bill that was in the House and decided that we could put up a slightly better proposal and that it would be considered by the select committee\u2014which they have done very, very carefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI think, across this House, we now have wide recognition of the pressures across the farming sector, and a way forward for, we hope, the few farmers who have to undertake a mediation process. But if they do, their families now should feel a little more secure in the knowledge that the process is laid down, I guess, protected by statue, and ensures fairness to them\u2014families who have, I guess, been encouraged to take on debt, who have often been encouraged to increase production, and who are now, for whatever reason, facing, I guess, pressure that the creditor doesn\u2019t see as possible to extract from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve been left with a big challenge; we have a solution. I\u2019d like to once again acknowledge the efforts of the Primary Production Committee made up of all parties in this House, acknowledge our coalition partners, and trust that this piece of legislation will be received in the spirit in which it is intended\u2014that is, through cooperation we can assist the farming sector into a more secure financial position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdd772275f7f40b2981e5b4cd5aeeabc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdd772275f7f40b2981e5b4cd5aeeabc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister of Agriculture for that introduction to the bill. He covered a number of the changes that the Primary Production Committee had proposed and were accepted. So I thank him for making those changes, because they were important to tidy up on in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe essence of this bill deals with farm debt and any mediation that may be required if a farmer gets in trouble with that debt. Now, we don\u2019t perceive that there will be a lot of cases where this bill will actually become a reality, but it is something that is out there as a tool for farmers and banks and other financiers should such a situation arise\u2014it has inevitably arisen in the past and will continue to arise in the future as part of the normal course of any business arrangement. However, at this point of time in the farming cycle, one can see that this bill could actually be very much needed, when we consider the Draconian legislation that is upon the farming sector now from this Government that will force many farmers to re-evaluate their financial position and force banks to re-evaluate their lending processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIt is not something that has been caused by international markets or any failing on behalf of a farmer or any adverse biosecurity event in New Zealand that has caused that pressure on the New Zealand farming sector. The pressure on the New Zealand farming sector lies directly at the feet of one Minister\u2014Minister O\u2019Connor\u2014and the New Zealand First Party that have been backing up that Minister and have been doing a series\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230545ee65bad4ac98eb534597a432052\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I was so kind to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adc31b4e644d4274a9e633aae68903a0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014of silly and inane policies that have destroyed the backbone of New Zealand\u2019s economy. That Minister may laugh it off, but look at forestry, for example, and the silly and inane policy of the New Zealand First Party that required an exemption from our overseas investment rules so that overseas purchasers who have come in and purchased forestry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022395b42526dc84387a772913fff6a5d49\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all very interesting but we are debating the second reading of a bill that\u2019s been reported back to the House, so stick to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff0fed7e7fc047db82d3dce24590e9ed\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f8734294fa449fbb4d1ad5c08ec1b9a\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Stick to your facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b9c5ea36154823a0e6e8431929ec58\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: We are, and as that Minister finished his speech looking at the history and the context, we\u2019re looking at the context now, and it\u2019s vital that we put the other side of the context from what the Minister put forward, because he only puts forward one side of the context. If we look at the situation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218a4b051b3b24342b4dc40e692afd7e5\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I thought I was very balanced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b6df22ddd824e06b10d7aaf9fc84c0e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: What did you say, Minister? Balanced? There was no balance in the Minister\u2019s speech at all. And, if we look at that situation in forestry, another great shining example of the economic genius of the New Zealand First Party was to stop foreign investment, and that is actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022249e8c456e504fb8a959b1b9de64b1c6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me, but stick to the bill without all those accompaniments. I appreciate that you are able to put some context around it, but you should actually be focusing on the bill as reported back. This is the second reading, where the House is accepting the bill as it\u2019s reported back from the select committee. I\u2019ve just checked the report from the select committee. There is nothing in there that gives that wider context. So that\u2019s why I\u2019m narrowing it for you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268847f3c0db44bd5851f5f620728e1f5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, when we look at that wider context, it\u2019s a farm debt mediation bill, and the need for such a bill would be because of the policies that you\u2019ve seen in recent years from this Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f684890f1ad04bf28585d1fa9fdadb6a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t bring the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0466d309a3342e99e8b77a08c2dcfec\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014and that is the context that we\u2019re looking at in that regard. The members across the other side may like to ignore that, but the reality is that the policies that they have engaged in have put farmers in a predicament where they may have to use this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b3a914f5ee74f0bbb8c200a0e802b3d\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: I feel a third warning coming up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249de410c593c424c9a516c32e36fb3f7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Did you say something over there? No, I didn\u2019t think so. One of the big things that we had to look at in the select committee was the definition of \u201Cfarm\u201D, because, in many cases, farming businesses are partnerships and they are more than just the physical farmer; they could be a husband-and-wife partnership where one of the parties may be working in a different environment, like in the town or in another off-farm income. So we wanted to make sure that those kinds of situation were adequately captured by the bill, and that was one of the changes that are in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EAnother change was in regard to security interest, and that is in clause 6. There was a little bit of divergence between the parties in this regard. The National Party felt that the security interest that had been enabled in this bill to kick it off, effectively, is a bit wider than what is needed, in the sense that it could include a hire purchase and something like that, whereas we would rather have seen the clause actually be ad certum de minimus in the sense that a certain type of security interest would be the reason to set it off rather than just to have necessarily a hire purchase type of arrangement as setting off that farm debt mediation. So that was one point, and the National Party made it clear in the report that there is a point of difference there between the National members of the committee and other members of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIn regard to the previous point I talked about, with the definition of \u201Cfarmer\u201D, we did come to agreement between the parties on that, and all the parties that were in the select committee did agree on that wider definition. I think Amy Adams needs to take a lot of credit for that. She really raised the issue and pushed it through within the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s another issue that was a big part of it. That was the cost of mediation. Now, some of the members of the banking community and financiers and accountants raised the issue that the cost of mediation could be prohibitive for actual mediation to occur. There was a lot of debate within the committee around that because, theoretically, if you\u2019re in a position where you need mediation, then potentially you won\u2019t have the disposable income or the cash flow to pay for the costs of specialists\u2019 advice for that very such mediation. So one of the changes that was made in this bill\u2014and it was agreed by all parties\u2014was in regard to the capping of the farmer\u2019s contribution of $2,000 to the mediation costs. We had a variation of estimates of what that cost could be. Some believe that it might be well in excess of that, and some felt that that was just the actual mediation-on-the-day costs. But, effectively, it gives a little bit of comfort to farmers so that they can progress through this process not feeling that the cost of the mediation is something that would be detrimental to them undertaking the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo those were some of the big issues that were raised at the committee. Effectively, this bill is based on Australian legislation that the New Zealand First Party had seen and wanted to push through, and the Government of the day has picked it up. It\u2019s not going to be a fundamental change to the banking policies in New Zealand. It won\u2019t be a major change to the relationship between farmers and bankers. It will be, potentially, a tool that could be used in certain circumstances. But, in circumstances like we have now, with very strong international payments and prices coming to New Zealand primary producers, one would not see the need for this to the extent that we will see the need, because on the other side of the balance sheet for farmers is the high costs that are coming to them because of Government legislation and silly Government policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo this bill will probably be used more than it is needed, and that will be required because of the silly policies that we\u2019ve seen come from New Zealand First that the Minister of Agriculture has promoted and pushed through this Parliament. So another bill that could be for the use of farmers and the financing community is not needed to the extent it will be because of the situation that farmers have been put into by the many policies that they are seeing that are attacking them across the board at this time. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u00229241edda67f34e96bf7190456d5fd4a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229241edda67f34e96bf7190456d5fd4a8\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is with great pleasure that I rise on behalf of New Zealand First for the second reading of the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2). It is actually a pity that I\u2019ve had to follow such a begrudging speech which seeks to characterise this bill in a way that is not as intended. This is a bill that is there to support our farmers through a range of conditions, and to try to sheet that home to specific Government policies of the day\u2014this is actually a long-standing issue. This goes back, from New Zealand First, back to 1999, with Doug Woolerton introducing a member\u2019s bill. It was subsequently carried on by Ron Mark and, more latterly, by myself, but I\u2019d like to thank the Minister, Minister O\u2019Connor, for allowing this to be picked up as a Government bill. It is a substantive piece of policy that did deserve the full weight of Government support and the Public Service behind it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EIn terms of the context of the bill, of course the primary sector is a significant contributor to our economy\u2014another record last year despite the grim protestations across the $446.5 billion record income. But that does sit over $63 billion of debt that has accumulated, and quite rapidly, over the past decade. That is even recognised by the Governor of the Reserve Bank as a risk to the New Zealand economy. In fact, that $63 billion is not actually that far out of line with what the net Crown debt is, and this debt is only carried by 20,000-odd farming families, of which about 20 percent carry most of that debt. So it does show how top-heavy it is and how vulnerable some of our farming businesses are to all manner of challenges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThere are so many challenges in agriculture and horticulture etc. that are beyond control: weather, climate risk, and, of course, with climate change, we\u2019re seeing more of that. We only have to look across the Tasman at the moment to see an example of that. In Otago the other day and Tasman we\u2019ve seen fires, which is something that is forecast to grow. We\u2019ve got the M. bovis outbreak and the recent Psa outbreak in the kiwifruit industry to look on. We\u2019ve got volatility in markets and the trade wars that are happening at the moment. And, of course, we\u2019ve got the Reserve Bank, independent of the Government, making capital requirements on the banking sector that they are looking to extract from their customers, essentially, to not penalise their shareholders. And that is disproportionately, potentially, going to weigh on our farming sector in terms of margins they may have to pay. So there is a range of factors beyond individual farmers\u2019 control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EAnd, of course, the other thing with farming is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ffb77c82ea4967b1f513cb10a2a2c0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think we\u2019re sort of one-all now, so if we could just come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213db05fbbd7443a4ac6c895cc593c5eb\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: So if we look at the power imbalance that this bill seeks to address, we heard some very good submissions before the select committee. Rural Women New Zealand\u2019s Angie McLeod outlined some of these real-life examples of banks obfuscating on their responsibilities and not coming to the table in good faith. I myself have seen that through my office since taking up this bill. There have been a number of farmers come forward and outline very substandard practices, not only from the banks, I might say, but particularly there\u2019s a second- and third-tier level of lenders that are, essentially, bottom feeders\u2014predatory lending. This bill will bring them under the auspices and make them come to the table in a mediation sense and give some certainty to farmers and some relief that that power imbalance that does exist will be evened up somewhat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EOf course, this bill does rely on the New South Wales legislation primarily, and that has been extraordinarily successful. Of course, a lot of our banks operate on both sides of the Tasman, and they had been reluctant to engage in this and, essentially, wanted voluntary codes of conduct. The Government has, to our credit, not been prepared to wear that. They\u2019ve brought forward that there\u2019s only nine or ten, on average, mortgagee sales a year in agriculture, but if you look at the Federated Farmers banking survey, they\u2019re showing about 16 percent of farmers feeling under pressure from their banks in May of this year, and that is up from 11 percent in November of last year. So it is something that is worth keeping a weather eye on. This piece of legislation could be something that those 16 percent of farmers can call upon when it goes through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to commend the Primary Production Committee. It was actually a very good example of how select committees should work, notwithstanding the aforementioned fairly ordinary speech from the chair of that select committee, David Bennett. He did have some uncharacteristic and hitherto unseen outbreaks of reasonableness and decorum and did oversee a select committee that worked very constructively to bring this bill into shape, and we\u2019ve made a number of recommendations. I would also like to acknowledge the Hon Amy Adams, who brought her considerable legal mind to this bill and was a very valuable contributor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI think, in terms of select committees and the value of them, we had 37-odd submissions, and we made a number of changes based on those recommendations. So it does show that submitters coming before select committees are listened to. A number of the changes that we made were to the definition of a \u201Cfarmer\u201D and a \u201Cprimary production operation.\u201D And over and above the easily recognised agriculture, horticulture, and aquaculture, we brought in the likes of apiculture\u2014bee-keeping\u2014which had been sitting in sort of an ambiguous place outside the bill. So we brought that in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also brought sharemilkers specifically into the bill, and I would commend Richard McIntyre, the Federated Farmers sharemilking chairman, who made a strong presentation to the select committee. One of the issues that we picked up was on the cost to farmers, and we\u2019ve put a cap on that at $2,000. It was estimated that the average cost of a mediation is about $6,000, based off the New South Wales experience, but we felt that even though the farmer was only obliged to cover half of that cost, Richard pointed out that for sharemilkers in vulnerable positions against a very powerful financial institution, even that figure may have been too much and dissuaded farmers from trying to trigger this mediation process. The select committee were unanimous in thinking that the very intent, the actual core, of this bill was to get mediation up and running, and we did not want cost to be a factor, because it\u2019s not only the cost of the mediation; it\u2019s the cost of the advisors and the like that need to come along with this as part of that process as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also been a widening and clarification of the scope and definitions of things like guarantor, allowing for multiparty mediation, sharefarming trusts, partnerships, and where there are multi-lender or family circumstances. So that\u2019s been clarified and improved. We\u2019ve allowed the banks to apply to the High Court to trigger a mediation in regard to things like animal welfare, or maybe if the crops are under threat of not being harvested or the like. So there is a counterbalance, I guess, there for the banks to not allow this process to diminish the asset value, and that has to go through the High Court, so there\u2019s a threshold there. It also strengthens the wording to encourage creditors to accept mediation so that it can be the fence at the top of the cliff rather than the ambulance at the bottom, which is the absolute intent of this bill\u2014to get creditors and farmers sitting around a table earlier to get a better outcome in the end. We did look at a de minimis figure, but we dismissed that as we felt that was self-policing, to a point. You\u2019re not going to trigger a mediation at some cost for a small amount. We did talk about an upper cap, but some of these debts are significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo New Zealand First is delighted with the way the bill\u2019s come out of the select committee, and we continue to look forward to shepherding this longstanding policy towards legislation in the third reading. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5dbd5ba2dad48fa9f05f0c4af7b614d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5dbd5ba2dad48fa9f05f0c4af7b614d\u0022\u003EHAMISH WALKER (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to talk a bit about the history\u2014the why, the what, and how this bill\u2019s going to work. This bill has been around for some 20 or 30 years. I believe it was first raised by New Zealand First back in the 1990s twice, and it was pulled from the ballot, I believe, last year under the name of Darroch Ball, and transferred over to Mark Patterson. The Primary Production Committee had a bit of a dabble with the bill. The member in charge of the bill tried to, basically, base it off similar legislation that\u2019s currently in place over in Queensland. Full credit to the Minister of Agriculture, Damien O\u2019Connor. He lifted the bill and, basically, cut and pasted the New South Wales model, which seems to be the way to go. Looking at the numbers in New South Wales, how many have actually used this type of legislation, it\u2019s very few, but I think it\u2019s needed now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EIf you look at the amount of debt that farmers have taken on over the last 20 years, it\u2019s gone up from about $12 billion or $13 billion up to $62 billion, and you have to look: why is that? One of the main reasons why debt\u2019s increased so much is the nine years of a strong, stable National Government, a party that backed farmers, a party that was founded by farmers for farmers. We backed farmers. That\u2019s why there was so much confidence. You had farmer confidence\u2014highest levels in three decades. Now it\u2019s dropped to the lowest. The reason why you had such high farmer confidence is you had a party that was backing farmers and an environment where farmers actually had money to invest into things like the environment, like over a billion dollars invested into waterways, and 30-odd catchment groups formed in Southland to improve waterways. They actually had the capital to invest back into the business and grow their businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EThat confidence has been very quickly undermined by a range of the current Government\u2019s policies. A number of them\u2014for example, the proposed water policies\u2014are causing a huge amount of fear across the rural community in New Zealand. I was talking to a farmer yesterday\u2014it\u2019s going to cost their operation in northern Southland, in the beautiful electorate of Clutha-Southland, $2.5 million to fence 45 kilometres of water, amongst a few other things\u2014$2.5 million. Now, this is a couple in their mid-40s. He\u2019s been working on minimum wage for the last 25 years, recently invested into the business, and their only option, if the water policy goes through as planned, is to sell the farm, and they\u2019ll be left with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. That\u2019s because you\u2019ve got a Government who have proposed water policies that are absolutely going to cripple farmers. This is why this legislation is needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ve got the ludicrous overseas investment carve-out for forestry. I was in the Catlins yesterday\u2014if you haven\u2019t been there, I highly recommend you go down there\u2014in South Otago. This is a small community. It used to have 35 families back in the early 1990s\u2014farming families. They participate in a range of voluntary organisations. The school had a roll of 35. They had businesses. In the early 1990s, those farms were planted out in trees. Now you\u2019ve got a school with six kids. You\u2019ve only got four or five families. It\u2019s actually quite devastating to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EThis is why this bill is needed. You\u2019ve got the lowest farm confidence in 20 years, a range of Government policies\u2014for example, research and development\u2019s halved, funding\u2019s halved for the primary sector industry. You\u2019ve got banks circling. You\u2019ve got banks putting more pressure on farmers now than ever before. Why is that? About seven or eight months into this Government\u2019s term, the banks could see the writing on the wall. They had meetings. Why would the banks want to back farmers when you\u2019ve got all these negative policies affecting rural New Zealand at the moment? Banks have a huge amount of data. They\u2019ve seen the writing on the wall, and that\u2019s why you\u2019ve got the banks circling. This is the reason why National\u2019s supporting this bill. We know it\u2019s needed more than ever right now, and that\u2019s perhaps the reason why it hasn\u2019t come into play now\u2014because of all the negative policies from the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003ETake Southland, for example. You\u2019ve got families now who can\u2019t even birth in their local community. You\u2019ve got a rescue helicopter in Te \u0100nau that is on 24/7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022133aaf6b2ead40e9a4a3a1bab1e196d0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think we now are getting really broad. Come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9dea80d804d484790f20f3cd7c15526\u0022\u003EHAMISH WALKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, Madam Speaker. I was just\u2014yeah, I\u2019ll come back to the bill. We\u2019ve also had the Mycoplasma bovis outbreak: another reason why the banks are winning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb193694f586455098cb0276717f6385\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: Now you\u2019re on to M. bovis. What\u2019s this got to do with the bill, mate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022211d5dd6508e4dfe9bc362d0552b7314\u0022\u003EHAMISH WALKER\u003C/span\u003E: National supports this bill because of the three or four negative policies outlined\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022795cd05bb1284efa86680ee33ca8e3a0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, I decide the interventions, OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249ee6df4198641daa818cb4320977485\u0022\u003EHAMISH WALKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the reason why National supports this bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa46ae42518646d9ae0324f8258febcc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa46ae42518646d9ae0324f8258febcc\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019ve just had to endure five minutes of a member of the Opposition. Not once did he actually turn to the substance of this bill. In this Chamber, the purpose of the role of each of us that holds a position in this House is to give every piece of legislation that comes into this House the due consideration that it deserves. Now, that last speech was an absolute disgrace to those farmers that we are actually trying to work and stand alongside. Now, I know that the Opposition are getting a bit terse. They are getting a bit grumpy because they know that on this side of the House, we\u2019re actually working hand in hand with the primary sector. I know that that\u2019s a bit disconcerting for that member Hamish Walker. It\u2019s a little bit disconcerting, so he, just like the chair of the Primary Production Committee, David Bennett, for the majority of his speech just spieled off negativity after negativity after negativity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EOne of the most frustrating things about sitting on this side of the House, particularly when you sit on the Primary Production Committee\u2014and we have pretty good, amicable relationships in that committee\u2014is we have to listen to the absolute garbage that comes out of people that purport to be leaders of our rural communities on that side of the House. It is misinformation, it\u2019s disingenuous, and I strongly appeal to our rural communities to do some fact-checking on those members that get up from that side of the House and speak to things that are, actually, really fundamentally important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ENow I want to turn to the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2). Why has this bill come about? This bill has come about because the previous Government let banks go rampant. They let corporate banks, owned by Australians, by and large, go rampant and milk our rural communities for all they\u2019ve got. So when the sun was shining, those banks absolutely targeted our rural communities\u2014they targeted our farmers. When the milk was flowing and the white gold was there, there were no barriers to letting these Australian, by and large, multinational corporate bankers come in to the homes, the beds, the lives of our rural communities. Where were the backstops then from the self-purported Opposition to be the champions of the regions? They were nowhere to be seen. So what happened in 2016\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2c279fbccc24548ac81f458b25def06\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All right. So I now ask the member\u2014I\u2019ve given the member the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceceb4cb994f440882c3f6ae5e727ca6\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, I\u2019m going to turn to this bill, because this is the context for this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cca474c7e48144f38b5fa779928e2bd4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would you let me finish and not speak over me? I\u2019ve tried to give everyone a fair go at the start, but if you come to the bill please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b00eb13aa4814fe4ba36c1d2ebb76d7c\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Five minutes I had to endure listening to that previous speaker, Hamish Walker, not once turn his mind or his words\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d450772fed6f43fdb5b4e4e6aa878488\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Are you arguing with me? Is that member arguing with me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022460077e2cdbf4dd39776dafa7f8ee63e\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not arguing with you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281ae602b58b44c658465a7e453bec20b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down. Are you arguing with me? I\u2019m saying that you are now to come to the bill. I\u2019ve given everyone a bit of a go about the context. I\u2019m now asking you to come to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a909bb8d6db49398dbc607ca32ded40\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: So, turning to this bill, this bill has been called upon by members of our rural communities and has been championed for many years by our friends, our coalition friends, New Zealand First. I want to applaud the member Mark Patterson, as a first-term member of Parliament, a sheep and beef farmer from Lawrence. I want to applaud the work that he has done alongside those members and our rural constituents, alongside those members that have really felt the heat of, I guess, inaction by the previous Government in this area, to ensure that some of our most vulnerable farmers\u2014and it\u2019s not the big farmers that this bill goes to protect; it\u2019s our sharemilkers. It\u2019s our little guys. It\u2019s our family farmers. After the milk price crashed in 2016, it was it was estimated that about 25 percent of farms were going to fail. Nothing was done. But I want to commend Mark Patterson. I also want to commend the Hon Ron Mark, Darroch Ball, all who in some way, shape, or form put their hand to the tiller to try and ensure that this bill got before the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EBut the real credit\u2014alongside those members\u2014must go to our Minister of Agriculture, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, who has been a constant bastion for the little-guy farmers and has ensured that this bill has come before this House in a way that really does get to the core purpose of what we\u2019re trying to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ESo what does this bill do? This bill requires or provides a mechanism to ensure that the farmers that are under some stress have a mechanism to require banks to go to mediation. Articulating the words of the submission from Rural Women New Zealand, they say, \u201CCalling up farm debt has had a devastating effect on the rural families involved because it can result in the farmers and their families leaving their home, families, friends, land, livestock, place of work, and community, all at the same time. This can be a traumatic event for all concerned. Although it is probable that banks will call up loans on farms where the borrowers default due to not being able to meet their commitments\u2014it is the process, timing, and manner in which this happens that often determines the amount of stress and trauma an individual or family will suffer.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ENow, what our farmers were saying to us\u2014and, you know, it was probably well-articulated. I know that the member Mark Patterson has already applauded him, but it was Richard McIntyre and his submission on behalf of the sharemilkers sector of Federated Farmers, which said that when those families are struggling and the pump is on\u2014I\u2019m paraphrasing him now, but he\u2019s spoken a number of times on this issue. But he said when that foot is on the jugular and it feels like they\u2019ve got nowhere else to go, there was no mechanism to be able to ensure that there was some parity to get those people around the table. The banks had the power and those farmers were under an enormous amount of strain. They couldn\u2019t get them around the table, and so what he said is that in those situations, a struggling farm business did not end in a bank taking action; it ended because the farmer just sold up after the bank put pressure on them about an overdraft. Now, with this bill, in cases like this, mediation is extremely beneficial. He said previously it would only happen if the banks agreed to it, but this creates a mechanism to compel those banks to get around the table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ESo, look, in the Primary Production Committee, despite all the, sometimes, rubbish that gets said in this House post factum\u2014in the actual committee it has been a really good, thorough process. We\u2019ve heard, I don\u2019t know, probably around 70-odd submissions on this bill from bankers through to farmers, through to the rural women\u2019s network, who really spoke a lot to the mental health implications of financial burdens and strains in the family home when the pressure gets a little bit too much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ENow, there is a whole range of substantive amendments that our select committee put forward, and my colleague spoke prior to this, but one of them was around that wider definition of \u201Cfarmer.\u201D We had a really in-depth discussion around our select committee to ensure that it\u2019s not just the person with their name who does the work day in and day out on the farm; there may be a spouse and a partnership; there might be a spouse whose primary work is doing something else\u2014it might be, I don\u2019t know, something in town. But that couple, they bear the burden of that financial stress. The purpose of broadening out that definition of \u201Cfarmer\u201D was to ensure that spouses were included, so that they could also have a right to trigger this mechanism to compulsory mediation, if that could be said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s been spoken a lot about too\u2014is that there was a lot of debate about how much mediation actually costs. I think one of the figures that we heard was up to around $20,000. I think that there was some consensus that it was around about $6,000 to get both parties around the table, depending on whether parties took advice, and so on and so forth. Now, I mean, this has been traversed, but it was important for us that we could, I guess, get rid of the barriers to participation to mediation for all of those concerned. So we\u2019ve kept the farmer\u2019s contribution to mediation costs to about $2,000. Now, as a former commercial lawyer myself, I know that that\u2019s an extremely low cost, but it was very important for us to ensure that equitable access to justice, if you will. We rejected a de minimis requirement; my colleague Mark Patterson covered this off just prior. We also set down criteria as to what could be evidence of bad faith when it came to mediation and rejecting a mediation request was one of those mechanisms that our committee determined would be evidence of bad faith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThere are a range of positive aspects to this bill, particularly for our smaller farmers who have been struggling financially, and it\u2019s with absolute pleasure that I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022de196259a839488494518bd19c839bdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de196259a839488494518bd19c839bdc\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think it\u2019s nice to see that the last speaker, Kiritapu Allan, did calm down somewhat by the end of her contribution. It was a rather fiery and farcical start, to be honest. The claim that the last Government let Aussie banks run rampant, as though there\u2019d never been an Australian bank in this country prior to 2008, and that that has led to catastrophe across the sector is absolutely ludicrous. And actually, off the back of that, Mr Patterson\u2019s claim earlier that any second- or third-tier lenders were bottom feeders is, I think, a little bit of a harsh way to describe any number of people in the agricultural sector who provide a bit of support and assistance to people getting into, potentially, their first farm. It\u2019s a bit of a rough claim to call them bottom feeders, in that instance, I\u2019d suggest, Mr Patterson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, this bill is around trying to provide a platform to mediation. And I think the key opportunity here is for those non-bank lenders. Now, having spent a number of years in the rural banking space, I can absolutely give confidence that banks will do whatever they can to avoid getting in a situation where they\u2019re having to sell up a client. That is the worst outcome for both parties. No one wants that and banks will work closely with their clients to try and find any other solution that might avoid that situation. Sometimes that means an early exit for the farmer if cash flow suggests that the equity will continue to be eroded by remaining in business. But alternatively, it might mean providing additional support if the cash flow and forward projections show a strong enough position\u2014that, actually, they can work their way through that and rebuild equity over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a matter of taking those aspects into consideration and, of course, the people\u2014that\u2019s the third part of it. So it\u2019s the cash flow, the collateral, and the character. You\u2019ve got to have a clear understanding of those three considerations in any lending situation. And banks have entire departments that work closely with their clients to try and minimise the impact of getting into this situation, and then the impact of what that might be on the farmers, in the first instance, but actually on the bank\u2019s position, of course, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo this bill provides a good mechanism for those non-mainstream banks to have the ability to work with the farmers or, conversely, the farmer to instigate mediation with some of those lenders who may be second- or third-tier lenders, but often are family connections. It may be parents or relatives that have lent some money to those farmers to enable them to get into business, to get into a farming business they would not otherwise have been able to. And so it\u2019s important that we\u2019re aware of that. It\u2019s not always big banks or rich people lending money to vulnerable farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EActually, these can be pensioners, parents of those farmers, who may not have strong cash flow themselves but do have some equity and are able to either borrow against that from the bank and on-lend it to their children, or they may provide a guarantee to support the security requirements of the farmers. And so we need to be mindful of that as well. And that would just be one aspect that I would raise around the $2,000 cap that has been mentioned in terms of the maximum charge for farmers, because if the other party is not a mainstream bank and may be also significantly cash-flow constrained, it can be challenging for them to be looking at the situation where they may have to stump up significant mediation costs but may not actually be able to do so themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EAnd of course, the other aspect around the definition of \u201Cfarmer\u201D, which crosses over both lines, potentially, is in a number of instances where you may have an equity partnership, for example, and one of those parties in that equity partnership may also be a lender to that partnership. So they are classified as both a partner by being a farmer in the sense of the definition in this bill but also a lender or a creditor to that entity as well. So that creates another line of confusion\u2014that on glancing through this, I haven\u2019t seen clarified\u2014as to how that would play out in a mediation situation. So I\u2019d be interested to see that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EBut, of course, we have seen an increasing amount of pressure being placed on farming businesses. And one aspect that I\u2019d touch on as well is the Reserve Bank\u2019s current consideration around what\u2019s an appropriate level of capital to be required to be held by the banks. And of course, whenever a mainstream bank hears that, of course, they\u2019re going to start reassessing where their risk appetite is sitting in a particular industry. And we\u2019re hearing across the board now that banks are being somewhat more cautious in their approach to additional lending. And actually, the existing lending requirements\u2014there\u2019s encouragement in a lot of spaces to start repaying capital, not just interest costs, and so that has implications as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EAnd, of course, we\u2019d heard already about the aspect of whether hire purchases and other unnecessary debts are potentially caught up under this as well. But at the end of the day, it comes back to providing a platform, giving a little bit more support whilst already, I think, there\u2019s a broadly appropriate platform in place in most instances for banks\u2014granted there are some exceptions. This really is, I think, a good opportunity to enable a better process to be established around those non-mainstream lenders. And so on that basis, I do commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b65b495b6dc24c1dbf717db57bd9146f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b65b495b6dc24c1dbf717db57bd9146f\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. I rise on behalf of the Green Party to support this legislation. Farm debt\u2019s risen to $62.8 billion; this is a huge issue. It has grown fast over recent years. We\u2019ve all seen the stories\u2014probably many of us have talked to farmers about the mental health issues and the pressures that arise from that large debt burden. We\u2019ve heard from the member Mark Patterson that it\u2019s that small tail of farmers that carry that massive amount of debt around their shoulders, their neck, but it\u2019s an important issue and I\u2019m glad that Parliament is working in a cross-party fashion again when it comes to this issue, to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENow, many people listening might ask, \u201CWell, why farms? Why single them out in particular? Why not other businesses? Shouldn\u2019t they benefit from statutory protections when it comes to mediation?\u201D The fact is that farmers, I think, do have a particular set of circumstances. They are particularly vulnerable to the weather. You know, my thoughts and prayers go to our cousins across the Ditch in Australia that are facing these massive bush fires\u2014I understand there is a catastrophic rating in New South Wales at the moment around Sydney. We are going to see this getting worse and worse when it comes to the effects of climate change. We need to prepare and adapt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EOf course, there is vulnerability to fluctuating prices; biosecurity incursions, which are no surprise to New Zealand as we\u2019ve battled Mycoplasma bovis; but I think also there is the particular issue of the intergenerational nature of farms. Many New Zealand farms are literally where these farmers\u2014their parents, their grandparents, sometimes even earlier\u2014were born, so it\u2019s important that when you do come to servicing that debt, potential default, and bankruptcy, this step is put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank the Primary Production Committee for their consideration. I understand there were 31 written and 17 oral submissions. The Green Party, unfortunately, this Parliament, doesn\u2019t have a seat on the Primary Production Committee so I wasn\u2019t able to participate. But I would like to thank the committee because there are four big substantive improvements, where they\u2019ve amended this legislation, that I\u2019d like to highlight and single out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EFirstly, the original legislation said that a creditor had to offer mediation when the farmer was in default. Now, I hear the argument submitters made that that was coming too late in the piece. Once you get to default, things have already advanced to such a level that, really, you could have fixed it earlier on. I like the phrase of Mark Patterson, which is, \u201CWe\u2019d rather have a mediator at the top than an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.\u201D So I note new clause 16A to allow earlier intervention, where the farmer can request it earlier on. We know from international evidence that the earlier you can intervene, the better the outcomes for all parties involved, so I\u2019d like to acknowledge that positive amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe committee\u2019s clarified the definition of \u201Cfarmer\u201D. Things such as hobby farms, lifestyle blocks, aren\u2019t included and I think that\u2019s entirely reasonable, and what they\u2019ve done in clause 6 is deleted the words \u201Csolely\u201D and \u201Cprincipally\u201D from the definition of \u201Cfarmer\u201D. But they\u2019ve also expanded those who are engaged in the business\u2014so trustees, spouses, partners also come under that definition of \u201Cfarmer\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to acknowledge the work of capping the costs. We\u2019ve heard the international evidence\u2014well, the evidence from Australia\u2014that mediation costs around $6,000. Originally, those costs were envisioned to be split 50:50 between the creditor and the debtor. However, I think when you realise the fact that you\u2019re only invoking the situation when the farmer is in some debt\u2014is in an onerous debt situation\u2014you know, they are particularly vulnerable. So $2,000 still is a significant sum and we think the committee\u2019s actually got about the right number in terms of the farmers\u2019 costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ELastly, and this I think is important from an animal welfare perspective, is an application to the High Court in situations of urgency. We\u2019ve heard other members today talk about the situation where the value of the farm might degrade over time if, say, there are 60 to 90 days for mediation. But there is also the scenario where you\u2019ve got stock on a farm which might not be well cared for, from an animal welfare perspective, while that 60 day mediation process is under way. So we do acknowledge this; we do support this amendment to include an application to the High Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to take this opportunity to thank New Zealand First. This is clearly something they\u2019ve worked on for a long, long time. I guess it\u2019s a good example of persistence pays off in politics, so I acknowledge the member who\u2019s ushered this through, Mark Patterson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENational, I think, were trying to make politics out of this. It\u2019s not something our farmers deserve at this point in time. They\u2019re facing a number of pressures, and I think if we\u2019re going to talk about the issues facing farmers many of the problems can be laid at the floor of that Government that had nine years to sort it out. But, instead, what they did is they chased volume over value, they saw this rapid increase in debt. They didn\u2019t act with the most severe environmental crisis facing our local environment, which is the degradation of our waterways. In fact, we\u2019ve seen that nitrous oxide concentrations\u2014the amount of nitrogen we\u2019re applying to our farms\u2014have increased, I think, 650 percent since 1990, much of that under the tenure of the previous Government. I still remember in this House when they were blaming birds and volcanoes for the problems of our water quality crisis and the fact you can\u2019t swim in two-thirds of our streams and rivers. They didn\u2019t face up to it. This Government is acting, unlike that previous Government. So I think it\u2019s wrong, it\u2019s unfair, and giving our farmers a disservice when they\u2019re trying to blame the Government for dealing with the problems that they left. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe Green Party vision\u2014which we\u2019re seeing from this Government\u2014is supporting our farmers into more sustainable practices. And, ultimately, that is going to make our farms more economically sustainable, because we can\u2019t keep chasing volume; we need to chase value. We can\u2019t just keep cramming more cows in our paddocks. We need to embrace sustainable farming practices, which was included in the last Budget. We need to be embracing regenerative farming and organic agriculture, which we know is going great guns in this country. This ultimately is going to see a more sustainable farming system that is more sustainable economically, and continue that social licence. Kia ora koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022380759f4119f49d090457cb50ed1eda4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022380759f4119f49d090457cb50ed1eda4\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to make a contribution on the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI was reflecting, listening to the speeches this afternoon, back on to the 1980s and indeed the late Collis Blake, who was a farmer in Levin. He, effectively, stopped mortgagee sales in the 1980s by blocking access onto farmers\u2019 driveways with tractors and trucks, and then went and negotiated singlehandedly with banks. I must say, the relationship with farmers and banks has come a long way since the 1980s, but I fear, even more than ever, that we are heading back into a situation like those farmers in the 1980s found themselves in. Because the fear that I have is that Government policy is creating a lot of uncertainty in rural communities. I think that this bill\u2014and that\u2019s partly the reason why the National Party is supporting this bill\u2014is necessary, because when you have a look at the confidence in farmers and if you look across the whole range of business confidence surveys, whether it\u2019s Federated Farmers, whether it\u2019s Rabobank, whether it\u2019s ANZ, and the list goes on, farmers\u2019 confidence is at an all-time low. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ENow, why is that? Because their prices are very good, apart from wool. Beef prices: good. Dairy prices: good. Horticulture prices: gangbusters. The list goes on\u2014forestry prices: looking good. But why is it that farmer confidence and sentiment is extremely low, the lowest it\u2019s been in decades, right through, even beyond the global financial crisis? And the reason has to be because they are facing an onslaught of Government policies. I don\u2019t want to spend all of my contribution talking about the onslaught of those Government policies that are causing a negative reaction in rural communities. I could, but I don\u2019t want to because that would be seen as negative, and the list would go on and then the bell would go, and I\u2019d be asking to extend my contribution because the list is as long as both of my arms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThis bill is important right now for not only what\u2019s happening with Government policies but we have also the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act potential changes, and that is also reverberating around rural communities, right now, with banks who are turning up and sitting around the kitchen table and saying to farmers, \u201CRight, you have been paying off interest, OK, thank you very much. But now we want you to pay off principal as well.\u201D Not all debt in agriculture, in the primary sector, is bad. And I\u2019ve heard from a variety of speakers this afternoon alluding to the fact that farmers are out there with their chequebook spending willy-nilly and they\u2019ve caused this demise of ratcheting up debt on themselves. Well, I want to defend farmers and say, actually, in a lot of cases they have been investing in lifting the overall performance and viability of their individual farms, particularly around environmental policies that they have made. And all of those decisions: fencing their waterways, 24,000 kilometres from here in Wellington to Chicago and back, riparian planting\u2014look at the Waihopai River. It got the supreme award last week. That\u2019s a river near Invercargill, surrounded in farmland\u2014it got the supreme award for water quality improvements, and that is because they work collectively together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe reason that this bill is necessary is\u2014I\u2019ve talked about Government policies, I\u2019ve talked about the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act changes\u2014is also that we know that the family home is on the parcel of land that is a working farming business. So it\u2019s different, isn\u2019t it? It\u2019s a bit like a dairy owner. Quite often the dairy owner lives in the business. Farmers live in the family home that is on the particular property, so when farmers find themselves being rounded on by the banks\u2014that\u2019s starting to happen right now\u2014it means the family home is very, very vulnerable. So this bill is necessary for that reason as well. I\u2019m pleased to see that the Primary Production Committee has capped the mediation costs that farmers will pay, up to $2,000. I think that\u2019s also very, very important. And another note is that it means that farmers will be able to go to their bank and say they want early intervention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ESo I support this bill. I think it\u2019s necessary right now; there\u2019s a flood of farms on the market. Some of them are choosing to exit because of Government policies; some are choosing to exit because of the pressure that they\u2019re being put under by their banks. That\u2019s why I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00220cfa4dac69aa426197c3ac4fec1249ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cfa4dac69aa426197c3ac4fec1249ba\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022695efa8fb137446b9a85784a6341b610\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022695efa8fb137446b9a85784a6341b610\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. So the context of this bill is that this is a Government that\u2019s tackling the long-term challenges. Our economy is in really good shape. It\u2019s growing faster than most similar countries. Interest rates, unemployment, and debt are all low. We\u2019ve had the highest annual wage growth in a decade. We\u2019re not afraid of tackling the big issues, and that\u2019s the context. We know that farming is vital to New Zealand\u2019s growth and wellbeing, and it accounts for something like, I think, $46 billion in exports last year. We also know that there is growing debt in the farming sector and that farmers are especially vulnerable to business downturns as a result of conditions that are often outside their control. You\u2019ve heard quite a lot of talk about that this afternoon, which is why this Government\u2014as I said, not afraid of tackling the long-term issues\u2014is actually addressing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIt started off with a member\u2019s bill\u2014I acknowledge Mark Patterson for that member\u2019s bill\u2014which the Government then sensibly decided should be a wider Government bill. And, thankfully, the Opposition, the National Party, decided that it would support it. It sounds to me as if there was quite a lot of good work done in the Primary Production Committee with 31 written submissions and 17 oral submissions from farmers, banks, and mediation organisations. But this is one of those examples where good work gets done in the select committee and a lot of blather happens in the House from the National Party in Opposition that is looking for a way to justify its nine years of doing nothing in this area. We\u2019ve heard that in 2019\u2014this year\u2014there is $62.8 billion of debt, up from $49 billion in 2009. So one asks oneself what the previous Government was doing during that period. Why didn\u2019t they introduce legislation to bring in a fair farm mediation scheme that was going to guarantee that fair, constructive, and timely process for farmers to work through debt problems with their lenders? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI heard the previous speaker talk about blocking driveways to get banks to negotiate with farmers, but there\u2019s just a great big, glaring gap, and you\u2019ve got to ask yourself what was missing during that period. Was it that the banks were seen as too powerful for the previous National Government to actually take on? Actually, you\u2019ve got to look and see\u2014well, what\u2019s the previous Prime Minister doing now? He\u2019s the chair of one of those banks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ESo here we have a Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4419663cf98409d9edc503244c2f059\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member needs to be a bit careful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234a39a51fe894eaa9d9f9614d3ffe3ad\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014that is actually introducing a fair scheme\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b9ba1c39c474e4d99927b30e8340720\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member needs to be a bit careful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208bfc39193184051b6a35fa7300fb394\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014for the farming community to have a structured, confidential, and impartial negotiation process that allows for the mediator to be a neutral and independent person to help both the farmer and creditor work through their debt issues in an effort to reach agreement. So fairness is actually what this Government is about. It is tackling the hard issues and getting the economy working properly, but introducing fairness for all parts of the community. A big thankyou to Minister Damien O\u2019Connor for taking this issue on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis is why it\u2019s so hard for the Opposition to argue a position. Even though they\u2019re supporting the bill, it\u2019s really hard for them to argue their position because they didn\u2019t get on and do this themselves in that nine long years of neglect period. Instead, it\u2019s this Government that\u2019s been left to pick up the pieces after we\u2019ve had a system where farmers are dependent on capital gains on land and not productive profit. We\u2019ve had growing farm debt and no recognition of the building pressure on farmers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis is the Government that\u2019s delivering. They\u2019re delivering for all parts of this sector, and we\u2019re doing it alongside all of the other joined-up policies that are making this country a better place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9b69227791445ec8b74dd08ad32f124\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9b69227791445ec8b74dd08ad32f124\u0022\u003EMATT KING (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. It\u2019s a pleasure to talk on the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2), a bill established to help with creditors and farmers. Clare Curran, the previous speaker\u2014I think she might be going into the fertiliser business when she retires from Parliament, because she produces it on an industrial scale. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re supporting this bill. We support this bill. The original bill was brought in by New Zealand First and it was a dog of a bill. They should have just cut and pasted the New South Wales version, and I see that this current bill is, essentially, a copy of that, so the Government had to rescue it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EI see that there were 30-plus submitters and 18 oral submitters, and it was supported by Federated Farmers and the New Zealand Bankers\u2019 Association. We\u2019re talking about $62.8 billion worth of debt, which was, what, $49 billion in 2009. So it\u2019s not a massive increase, but it is still a significant amount of debt for us to carry, and it\u2019s acknowledged that early intervention in these cases rather than forced disclosures is a good method, so we support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EI\u2019m a farmer myself, and we\u2019re vulnerable\u2014farmers. We are subject to weather, the markets, diseases, and Governments that don\u2019t know what they\u2019re doing introducing all kinds of legislation that puts pressure on farmers, and the farming community, at this point in time, have never been more under load. They\u2019re more under siege than ever before, and this is at a time when they should be jumping from the rooftops because the prices are good, earnings are good, and the weather\u2019s been reasonable. But they\u2019re not. They\u2019re pretty sad. In fact, I\u2019ve got a hill-country farm, and I struggle to make a living off that farm. The fertiliser, the weed control bill, the fencing\u2014if I did it as to best practice, I would spend my entire farm income on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a common misconception that farmers are rolling in dough, because they\u2019re not. Most farmers I know will be lucky to retire with a bit of a nest egg after a lifetime of working seven days a week, so farming is really hard. It\u2019s hard on people, it\u2019s hard on farmers\u2014it\u2019s hard on their bodies\u2014and it\u2019s no wonder they\u2019re struggling. So we need this farm debt mediation bill, because I can see that a lot of farmers, especially with what\u2019s coming down the line, are going to be struggling. There are going to be some farmers who are going to have to walk off their land. Hopefully, a National Government will get back in and change things around, and we can carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EOn my farm, I could\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e8f80593f5c4b49a81593ebe2b77c78\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Are you actually going to address the bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c90c09a5ff124600b98f7316e331faa8\u0022\u003EMATT KING\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yep. I\u2019m talking about farm debt. The banks can be villains at times. They can be villains at times. You hear this story about bank bosses foreclosing on farmers and making them pay back capital right at crunch times, and this definitely goes on. We know that this goes on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EThis farm debt mediation bill, in my view, is a mechanism to keep bankers honest. So I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8c9f6127c814d808b2f6b50dda43ac5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8c9f6127c814d808b2f6b50dda43ac5\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E This is one of those situations where I haven\u2019t sat on the select committee. I have been aware of this bill and read bits about it, but, as people in the House will know, unless you\u2019re actually directly involved, the nuances of the bill often escape you. Having been requested by my whip to present on this bill, I\u2019ve had the opportunity for the last 10 minutes to read through it, and I\u2019m incredibly impressed by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EWhat have we actually got here? We\u2019ve got a bill that says that if your business gets in trouble, you will have compulsory mediation\u2014well, not \u201Ccompulsory\u201D, but highly advised mediation. You\u2019ve got a system that will ensure that before the creditors move in, before you are kicked off your farm, before\u2014and we can go back to any stage in history, which has been littered with opportunities or instances where people have been, basically, kicked off their land. Well, at any stage in history, I\u2019m sure any farmer or anyone involved in agriculture would have loved to have a piece of legislation like this to be able to refer to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EI\u2019m from a family that arrived in New Zealand in the 1840s from Ireland as a result of the Irish famine, when the land became exhausted and when farmers didn\u2019t have access to any such thing. They, basically, starved or they left, and that was probably a very typical example of what happens in the dog-eat-dog of farming\u2014the dog-eat-dog of farming which exists, generally, around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe dog-eat-dog of farming has actually existed largely in New Zealand. One only has to drive around New Zealand, and you\u2019ll still see the skeletons of old dairy factories and you\u2019ll still see the skeletons of old dairy farms. The farm that I grew up on previously is now three farms, and, typically, I\u2019m sure that those involved in farming here and on the opposite benches will know that the piece of land that they now occupy, generally, was probably about at least three or four farms before it became the economic unit it is today. So that is an evolving process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EHistory doesn\u2019t stop. What we\u2019ll actually see is that the lands that are farmed now that may be an economic unit of maybe 2,000 stock units may in the future become an uneconomic unit unless there is policy around which farming can actually survive at that level. It is inevitable that in a business like farming, there are good businessmen and businesswomen, and there are bad businessmen and businesswomen, there are good farmers and bad farmers, and there are unfortunate farmers and there are unlucky farmers. For whatever reason, anyone who is in business or anyone who is out there contesting the dollar may find themselves in trouble. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo, coming back to this bill, I see that, ultimately, it settles around the role of a mediator. When the raw forces of capitalism\u2014and, let\u2019s face it, across the aisle, are the so-called champions of the raw forces of capitalism\u2014are applied to agriculture, as they are applied to any business, in fact, there will be a protection given by this bill. Having just read the bill\u2014and a member of my own family from that family that arrived in the 1840s from Ireland is the current Minister of Agriculture\u2014I\u2019m actually very proud, I have to say, that around the family dinner table at Christmas, it will be spoken of as a very good piece of legislation. Even those relations of ours that are still on farms, if they should happen to bring up\u2014not that they ever will\u2014that there are any problems on the farm, it will be something to be able to remind them of, which is that this year, this fine Government that I am proud to be part of has actually brought in a piece of protection that no one else in New Zealand really has got. So the businessmen and businesswomen who make up our farmers now should back\u2014they are getting good dairy prices, better than for a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBasically, the thing is that the members opposite when in Government were very fortunate post-2008 and post-2012 when dairy prices were through the roof. We\u2019ve survived that. So there wasn\u2019t the need for farm remediation. There wasn\u2019t the need for the bankers. In fact, at that very time, what were the bankers doing? The very reason this bill is required\u2014the bankers were out there. And what is the definition of \u201Cbanker\u201D? A banker will lend you his or her umbrella when it\u2019s fine, but will come and take that umbrella back as soon as it\u2019s raining. Well, it is still fine at the moment in farming because we do have high dairy prices. We do have high land prices. We do have high beef prices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022754c1ae45fc742399884ef42c4a6c330\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the bill. You started well; you\u2019ve just deviated slightly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022664054141c134528b764b8d4ac67c690\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: But this is why it is so wise, Madam Speaker, that we are bringing this bill in right now, because it is in anticipation that the very famine that has beset every one of us, wherever we came from around the world, whether we came in 1200\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022521aad781de94634b8b75f730fb52abc\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do think it is a long stretch to compare this bill to the Irish Famine, but could we come to debate about the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229304edbb67d4ce187b865ea2ea2e603\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I like to provide context, Madam Speaker, but I will come back. Let\u2019s just have a look at some of the provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294a6b65b3c4a4e658ec758406be77ae7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That would be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3761114e6da44aa8917e68a6a6e3f2f\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: What are the benefits of this mediation? Mediation is a key word in this bill\u2014a key word: this mediation that will be allowed for those businessmen and women who occupy farmland today, that will generally be denied to most other businessmen and women in New Zealand. It provides a safe environment for farmers to work constructively, with creditors, through debt problems. That really is the key to the bill. While mediation may not save the farm business, it can help facilitate a dignified exit for farmers if necessary, or alternatively, it can allow the farmers to explore options for turning it around. History has shown that the earlier mediation comes and the earlier someone who is in any business\u2014in this case, the agriculture business\u2014does seek help and advice, then the chances of actually turning the financial problem around is increased considerably. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s go back to some of the other provisions of the bill. Who\u2019s going to pay for this scheme? Actually, again, as I read through this, it is unusual to read through a cost and set up of any scheme\u2014one generally expects to see lots of zeros. In fact, the estimated cost to set up the scheme is about $350,000. The estimated annual cost for administering the scheme is about $250,000 to $300,000, met from the Minister for Primary Industries\u2019 existing baseline. The cost of each mediation is expected to cost about $6,000, split between the creditor, of course, and the farmer\u2014of course, limited\u2014and the agricultural business person who is in the business of agriculture, their contribution will be limited to $2,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAgain, I hail this piece of legislation. It is recognition of the financial vulnerability and stress on the farmer who will be going through this mediation. So I can\u2019t speak highly enough of this piece of legislation and I\u2019m just ashamed that I wasn\u2019t on the select committee, and around the family I should have been briefed on this, perhaps by the family member myself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAlso, important in this legislation\u2014because the other thing we all know is that what we so often need, when anyone gets into financial issues, is time. Once this mediation is initiated, farmers and creditors will have up to 60 days to complete the mediation process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EI daren\u2019t mention Ireland again for fear of upsetting the Speaker, but any business, anywhere, that\u2019s got itself in trouble, certainly in the agriculture business, I\u2019m sure would be only too happy to have had that 60 days\u2014to know that they had 60 days of a cushion to ensure that they did have time for the heat to go out of the business, the heat to go out of the problem, and perhaps, to get that money together. In the bill here is this 60 working days\u2014that\u2019s 60 working days, I might add; not just 60 days to complete the mediation process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo what is the mediation agreement? Again, going back to the bill, the mediation agreement is produced at the end of the mediation process and it sets out those agreed actions for future arrangement of the debt. Again, any business person would actually be ecstatic to have that sort of fall-back position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EWe come, again, back to the bill. What if the farmers did not want to take part in the mediation? Well, the creditors can then apply for an enforcement certificate which would allow for the creditor to proceed. So I doubt very much that the wise men and women who make up our farming industry will decline such an offer. I also ask you, what if the lenders don\u2019t want to take part in the mediation? Again, a threat, particularly when we look at the financial sector\u2014perhaps they\u2019re under pressure to call in the debts. The creditors will be encouraged to accept this mediation. I commend this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022 data-id=\u00222063acb120814309a05af20beee9c556\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222063acb120814309a05af20beee9c556\u0022\u003EJO HAYES (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I stand to take a brief call on the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2) in its second reading. We are farmers as well. I\u2019m pleased to see a bill like this come into the House. Farmers have been under a lot of stress and they will continue to be under a lot of stress, financially, especially. We have seen too many of our farming colleagues take their lives because of the burden of debt. So without any further ado, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00229bb3254805ea47328c49e6a99a96b320\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bb3254805ea47328c49e6a99a96b320\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I, unlike the previous speaker, am delighted to speak on this bill. I am sure the House will be pleased to know that I will not be speaking for 30 seconds on something so important; I will be taking this opportunity to share with the people of New Zealand why this, the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2), is so important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis bill is about supporting the wellbeing of farmers, which this Government is committed to through this bill and a number of other measures that we have introduced. We are committed to working with farmers to move away from a volume-focused approach to one that focuses on value. This bill sits directly alongside that. In his contribution before, the Hon Nathan Guy asked a very interesting question. \u201CWhy is it\u201D he asked, \u201Cthat farmer confidence, despite being in a situation where prices are at an all-time high, is so low?\u201D I have an inkling. It is because if farmers were to listen to the party that is supposed to\u2014if you listen to them\u2014represent rural areas, you would think that there is nothing but gloom and doom on the horizon. How on earth could farmers be confident about the future when those MPs that represent those electorates tell them that there is no hope? How can they have confidence when they tell the farmers that there is no point staying in the industry? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat this Government says through this bill, and through the many other measures like the $229 million Sustainable Farming Fund, which boosts farm extensions, advisory services, and tools like OVERSEER to help on the farm decision-making and practice, is that this a Government that stands up for farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat we hear on the other side is no vision\u2014a total lack of vision and a desire to stick with the status quo. I think that is why, in the nine years of the previous National Government, there was no bill like this, the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2). They have stood up, but not for long: David Bennett was the only one to do a full call. It was an appalling speech, but at least it was the full allotment. We had Hamish Walker for five minutes; Tim van de Molen for three; and Nathan Guy, a former Minister, was another short call. We had Matt King for three minutes; and, of course, the best of the lot was Joanne Hayes\u2014for 30 seconds. At no point did they talk about in their contributions\u2014in the nine years of the previous Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225dbfb1524104ac381f8960d9e191a32\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has now had the obligatory three minutes rant, so could the member now come to the bill. I\u2019ve been fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022603e03bb94ef4c6d9addeb63eef59e2b\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, I take exception\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dbf7364de474606801f251dbed84613\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be4ff33bc3344e76a3c6c21d70e3c0f8\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I take exception to my speech\u2014which is countering some of the others\u2014being described as a rant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d440563574148c895f64a4cab0b811f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m saying to the member that he will now come to the bill, because he\u2019s had\u2014as I\u2019ve given to many others\u2014three minutes which are not about the bill but are about politics. So he will now come to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c20d745197344c769153b7d68eb0c4d8\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah come on, get to the bill. He hasn\u2019t read it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022671b2cc1c1c4494e92ea1415586db208\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, I\u2019m quite capable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b5cf041aa2e4a1e99124d96f233ba2b\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: This bill\u2019s great. This bill is what has long been needed, and, in my view, should have been introduced a long, long time ago. This bill, as I said earlier, is about supporting the wellbeing, because the fact is that there is a power imbalance in the relationship with farmers and the banks. That is nothing new. That has been the case for a long time. I ask the very relevant question\u2014relevant to the discussion today, and certainly relevant to this bill\u2014as farm debt increased to record highs of $62.8 billion: where was the last Government? This Government has come forward, under the initial leadership of New Zealand First. I want to acknowledge the original sponsor of this bill, who took it on, in Mark Patterson\u2014the true voice of Clutha-Southland\u2014who brought this bill in its original form to this House. This Government took it on because it was so important and it deserved the resources and the oversight that a Government bill gets over a member\u2019s bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat that bill said to the people of New Zealand is that New Zealand First and Labour and the Greens take this issue seriously. We\u2019ve heard complaints on the other side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259b3dada1ac348dba231a78ae708b892\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh come on, come on now. The speaker knows very well that a second reading speech is when the bill, as it comes back from the select committee, is accepted by the House. So at some stage in their speech they do need to refer to perhaps what\u2019s happened in the select committee, to perhaps some of the changes, some of the detail of the bill. So would the member please do the House the service of focusing on the elements of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256c02bc9f3224a9c89d7463c296996f3\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d be delighted, Madam Speaker, and I appreciate the opportunity. In fact, it was the next part on my notes here\u2014as I\u2019m sure you\u2019ll understand and appreciate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EDespite having an appalling chair in David Bennett, the Primary Production Committee worked together very well on this bill\u2014Nathan Guy, up to the point that he left, replaced by Todd Muller and Amy Adams. They worked constructively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f287aa84a8f44a059738cd8069f4962d\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: How much are you going lose by next year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc19c508325f4b26a8e9c4b6419e7174\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I believe I\u2019ve hit a nerve, because this is the most David Bennett\u2019s had to say all day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe have worked constructively, and I know that my colleague and friend Mark Patterson has appreciated the contribution, particularly from Amy Adams, in amending this bill and recommending some changes. Indeed, the Minister himself acknowledged the work that the select committee did to bring forward some welcome changes that were needed to make sure that this bill was fit for purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe heard some submissions. There were three that stood out in particular. One was from Rural Women New Zealand, as my friend Kiritapu Allan mentioned. The other was from those that are actually in the game: the mediators, the ones that came along to the select committee and told stories of this power imbalance that this bill seeks to address.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThere was a question raised previously in another contribution that, again, is completely relevant to this conversation. Tim van de Molen, the representative from Waikato, said that banks work at every opportunity to avoid default with farmers. The question I pose is that either he can\u2019t have either been listening or he didn\u2019t understand the submissions that were brought forward at the select committee process, because submitter after submitter after submitter, often in tears, told us of circumstances where the bank wasn\u2019t working with them to save their farm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt is regrettable that this bill or something similar was not introduced earlier, because those guys would have been able to have the opportunity to mediate. I won\u2019t go as far, because it would be unfair, to suggest that their farms would have been saved. That is not what we\u2019re suggesting that this bill will do. But what this bill will do is introduce mediation into the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThere is one particular gentleman from Wairarapa whom I have been dealing with directly. His story is deeply saddening. It has touched me. I won\u2019t use his name because of his privacy, but I guarantee he\u2019ll be watching today. I wish that there was compulsory mediation in place when he lost his farm. It is something that has affected him and his family deeply, and I was sorry that the options available to me as a member of Parliament, resident in Wairarapa and representing Wairarapa, along with two others\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be58e32a7e944b06a62958bcc5bcc865\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t represent Wairarapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273b1caed6ae6475d9e189afcac908404\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Along with two others there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe fact is that the other side might take the opportunity to have a crack and have a go, but I\u2019m talking about something very serious here. I\u2019m actually using the opportunity\u2014the 10 minutes allotted to me\u2014to talk about a real story. This bill would have introduced compulsory mediation into that process. He would have had the opportunity to address the serious and genuine concerns that he had with the process that he faced. He doesn\u2019t have a farm now, and I fear that the only option available to him is through the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut, nevertheless, we must remain positive. We must look forward, because this bill will bring in the provisions that too many farmers didn\u2019t have available to them at the time. Of course, we could just simply say that mediation should be a compulsory mechanism in this process and leave them to it, but we on this side of the House believe in fair intervention. We might not leave it to the market like the National Party traditionally do, but we say that mediator costs will be shared equally between parties until a farmer\u2019s contribution reaches a fair amount. Above that, in order to recognise the financial vulnerability and stress on farmers going through mediation, any additional mediator costs will be borne by the creditors involved in the mediation. That is fair, and that is a provision that came out of the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI acknowledge those members that worked constructively with us: Amy Adams worked constructively; Nathan Guy and Todd Muller worked constructively; Hamish Walker, when he was there, worked constructively. This is an example to the people of New Zealand that, actually, when there are things that are important to rural New Zealand, this Parliament comes together. The examples under the last two years of this Government are countless. Time and time again I have made this point when I\u2019ve spoken up to speak on a bill that is relevant to rural New Zealand. It will be welcomed by the areas that many of us live in. It will be welcomed by those that have come into our electorate offices and told us of the sad stories of when they lost their family farm. For them and for those that will face those situations in the future, I proudly commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3fa5832a7f449d995e15175a235a355\u0022\u003ENational Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c823eda04c834d6baceb0ea887c348f8\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002207724b61401e40ec9fbf447f016fa167\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207724b61401e40ec9fbf447f016fa167\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the National Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EA well-functioning animal tracing system is vital for our biosecurity and to protect our most valuable exporters: our primary sector. This is the second reading. Ironically, the first reading of this bill was in 2012. It has taken some time, I guess, to come back and upgrade this bill\u2014or the Act, I should say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis bill addresses the issues found during the response to Mycoplasma bovis and the recommendations from an industry-led National Animal Tracing and Identification (NAIT) review. It addresses the inaction of the previous Government in ignoring enforcement and ignoring the promotion and utilisation of NAIT in the way it was intended. As I said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022131fc526f63746e6ab00b2057a1c287a\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s rubbish. That\u2019s lies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5cac736d39549cba7829fc7559aac61\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I heard a word that was very unparliamentary. The honourable member that said it should stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d57b1241384b454da2a0a7e7f832d6a0\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b2620eb7fec4f418c325ebcc567115f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, this Act was first put in place in 2012. We\u2019ve had to move forward\u2014learning from the lessons of M. bovis\u2014to make the changes in this piece of legislation. I acknowledge the valuable input from submitters and the support the bill received from key industry stakeholders. I would like to take the opportunity to thank the Primary Production Committee for their work on the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EMycoplasma bovis was the first real test of NAIT traceability, and the scheme was found wanting. Mycoplasma bovis will cost New Zealand almost $1 billion to eradicate, and that cost would have been considerably less if the NAIT scheme had been working well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe bill package contains a number of provisions. The package amends the NAIT Act and five sets of regulations. The changes ensure the framework underpinning the scheme is fit for the future. They tighten the focus on the basics for good tracing. The amendments support the operational changes being done by NAIT Ltd, the organisation running the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe changes that we are making include a number of things. Firstly, the NAIT number on a tag is specific to a given location. That is not the current situation. This is fundamental to getting better traceability. Persons in charge of animals\u2014or PICAs, as they are known\u2014will no longer be able to put tags issued for one location on to tags at a different location.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe second thing we\u2019re doing: we\u2019re encouraging better compliance. Most people across New Zealand would say that if there\u2019s a law, then there should be compliance with that law. The reality for NAIT is that was very, very poor. By now, no farmer should be in any doubt that everyone needs to do their part and comply with their obligations under the NAIT scheme and legislation. We are making it easier for the location history of animals to be provided to potential buyers\u2014an issue that was raised during Mycoplasma bovis and the complications with the Privacy Act, although I, personally, have some doubt as to its interpretation on certain matters. We are increasing penalties for non-compliance. I make no apology for stepping up the sanctions on people who continue to not meet their NAIT obligations. The cost and consequences of that behaviour fall on everybody else\u2014the taxpayer and every other farmer across New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThirdly, we\u2019re dealing with the performance of the NAIT organisation. NAIT Ltd is a private company with significant regulatory functions. The bill puts in place some standard ministerial oversight provisions for the NAIT organisation to address identified weaknesses. I have to say that I was very frustrated when I exposed some of the weaknesses but was unable to intervene directly, as any normal Minister would be, given the responsibility that I had to ensure full traceability across the agricultural system. That will now be addressed through these changes. There is a graduated set of tools to ensure that the company that runs the scheme stays on track. The Minister will be able to notify the board of priorities and expectations related to scheme functions and is able to issue a direction if needed. These are very sensible improvements, and I think any Minister with a portfolio responsibility would understand the value in having an ability to give clear guidance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EOther enactments in the legislation: the changes tighten the exemption for sending untagged animals going to meatworks. The direct safety of an individual farmer will be the only justification allowed. This is where sometimes an animal may go on to a truck and be sent to a works, penalty paid, but it\u2019s been a simple opt out for farmers when they haven\u2019t had to tag animals. The expectation is that animals should be tagged before any movement on or off a farm, and the exemption that was allowed for what were unsafe-to-tag animals will now be changed to ensure that that exemption is not abused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe current voluntary annual reporting of other animal species on farms will now be mandatory so that in disease management, particularly in the terrible and, hopefully, unlikely event that we would ever have foot-and-mouth disease, clearly other species such as sheep and goats that may contribute to the spread of foot-and-mouth disease\u2014currently, there\u2019s no obligation to tag\u2014at least now we will have to have notification of the presence of those animals on farm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe select committee has recommended that the bill package proceeds with a few revisions, and I support their recommended changes. The committee recommends that the Act does not confirm that the core data within the NAIT system is the property of the Crown. So the Act will remain silent on this. However, other provisions ensure that the core data set is protected by the Crown on behalf of all systems users. I have to say that, personally, I have some unease with the paranoia that was spoken of at select committee about the Crown taking ownership of the database, should that NAIT private organisation ever be sold. As we saw with the previous Government, they tended to sell anything they could lay their hands on, and that did expose databases like this to being passed into private hands. Our provisions that would have ensured control in the hands of the Crown are now left silent, and it will be upon a future Government to ensure that the database of farmers\u2019 information is in fact protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAs I said before, the committee agreed to change the terminology of the existing exemption for moving untagged animals to meatworks if they are impracticable to tag. That was the exemption. Sadly, we know that some farmers have been misusing this exemption, choosing to interpret \u201Cimpracticable\u201D as being inconvenient for them. The term \u201Cunsafe\u201D, that will be introduced now, focuses this exemption on its primary purpose, which is to manage dangerous animals and protect the health and safety of farmers. The NAIT scheme\u2019s been in place for seven years. Farmers should have the right equipment and the processes to tag their stock, because otherwise they can\u2019t move them anywhere other than to the meatworks. That\u2019s why we considered that this exemption, which was always a temporary measure, could be removed in five years\u2019 time. So that\u2019s a clear warning to farmers that you need practical equipment. The committee has recommended, of course, that instead there is a review of whether the exemption is still needed five years after this legislation is passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EOne of the other issues here: good tracing relies on all animals being tagged. One key checkpoint for biosecurity is when an animal is moved off farm. PICAs are currently responsible for making sure untagged and unregistered animals are not moved. So the provisions in the legislation put in place a more robust scheme\u2014with clear obligations and clear responsibility on PICAs\u2014and there was some discussion around transport companies and whether they should be responsible. What we have is a requirement that transport operators receive an assurance that the animals have been tagged or notification has occurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThese changes, and the amendments agreed by the committee, reflected a balanced consideration of the comments received from submitters. I commend the National Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Bill (No 2) to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002295f8fcd6691040bf808cf2cdac5d3e91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295f8fcd6691040bf808cf2cdac5d3e91\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. That was a particularly weak speak from the weakest Minister of Agriculture that this country has ever seen, and we expect that kind of activity. He spent five minutes talking about the National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT) legislation without actually talking about the Primary Production Committee and what actually happened there. It is disgraceful, I know, what that Labour Party gets up to. Let\u2019s tell the truth of what happened in the committee and what the Labour Party actually did to farmers in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThere was a process where all farming organisations were engaging with the Minister in good faith, and they were then sitting down and talking about how we could make the NAIT system better, and that was all fine. And then that Minister, at the last minute\u2014you can see the grin on his face\u2014changed the bill on them and took ownership of the data of farmers. That was what this Minister was trying to do in the bill. He had to capitulate in the select committee and give up on that attack on the farming base of New Zealand. That\u2019s the reality of what happened in this bill. He\u2019ll go and talk about how he never had the regulation and the ability to do what he wanted to do; that is rubbish\u2014absolute rubbish. The Minister had all the powers he needed at any point in time. It was his inefficiency and his misguidance that meant that it wasn\u2019t used properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis bill is just another part of the development of our animal identification system, and that will continue in the future. This bill will not be the end of the system. But what actually happened in this bill is that the Government tried to make an attack on the data ownership of the New Zealand primary sector\u2014that\u2019s what actually happened. Now, the Minister is not going to dispute that, I\u2019m sure, because that\u2019s exactly what the bill said. At the Primary Production Committee, we had to deal with that issue because it became a very blatant attack on the farming sector, because data is so important for any industry going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ETo have the data of one industry taken in one fell swoop is a very New Zealand First concept of corporatisation by the Government. They were going to do that with the power industry; it never actually happened, though, did it? We were going to have that grandiose plan. Well, they tried it with NAIT\u2019s data, but they didn\u2019t realise that they had a slight problem with trying to take the NAIT data off farmers, and that was that the NAIT organisation itself had been sold some years prior to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo you could probably make a legal argument that if the Government owned the organisation that that data went to, they may then own the data. But you can\u2019t make that legal argument once the organisation has been sold. So we got Crown legal opinion, which showed that the Government was out of step, that the Minister had breached his rights in the sense that he had no ability to take ownership of that data, that the submitters were actually completely right in saying that there was never any intent for data to be taken by the Minister, that the Government had actually overstepped and the Government had to backtrack, and\u2014by their own legal opinion\u2014the Crown found that this Government had acted outside the law in trying to take that data off the farming sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENow, they took this clause out of the bill, and now we see in it that the core data is no longer in Government ownership, and, although not clarified to the satisfaction of all farmers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a3f3f9970da4ace9282ac6308430247\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: No one owns it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5b22083da174e598efbae52d094e910\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no one owns it for this stage of the commentary\u2014but, in legal terms, you actually look at the debates in the House as well; they are very important to give context around the commentary. I would say that the debates in this House will clearly show that there can never be\u2014there can never be\u2014any attempt by a Labour Government to try and nationalise the data like they did in this attempt, because they do not have that ability and they do not have that legal standing to do so. So to anybody that may be looking at this in the future and wondering what the legal standing of the data is: the Labour - New Zealand First Government had no right to nationalise it, and they actually had to withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo it is more than being silent around ownership of data; it is actually saying that the Government does not have the right to that data, because it tried to gain that ownership and then failed through the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a50bf330b334876bcfca1f6d3f2f5d9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Is that the best you can do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e35fc9a5f9a4c119fc696e7a14668c8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s pretty good. You know, it\u2019s not often that many Governments are found by their own legal opinions to have acted outside of the power that\u2019s entrusted in them, and were trying to nationalise an asset that they shouldn\u2019t be allowed to. So thank you for that interruption over there from the member that\u2019s a new member, I note, but who will soon learn not to do that again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThen my second issue when we came to the legislation\u2014which was another point which we had to deal with the Labour Party on\u2014was in regards to transport companies. Now, the Labour Government and New Zealand First tried to bring in a requirement that all transport companies would now be liable\u2014not, actually, the farmer; the liability would be on the transport company. It took a while for them to understand that that wasn\u2019t a great, smart idea; we had to go through it about five times before they realised that it wasn\u2019t in the best interests of the transport community and, necessarily, anybody involved in the industry. But, finally, we did get there, and we had to coax them around to looking at different options around what could be done, and the best we could get out of them was that they would have another declaration on the declaration paper in regards to animals that had been transported off a property, and it puts the responsibility back on to the farm owner, which is truly where it should be; not on to the transport company, because it\u2019s very difficult in a range of circumstances for transport companies to be able to guarantee that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo that was bad enough, and the Labour Party and the New Zealand First Party finally came to a realisation that they were impractical in wanting to make sure that transport companies had to operate under the basis that they were liable. So it was added to the documentation that would come off a farm. There was no attempt at all from the New Zealand First or Labour members to have any consideration of costs that that would impose on the Government. So there will be an extra cost on the Government because of the decisions of those two parties at select committee. And there was no consideration of the timing of it; they just thought you just click your hands and you can change all the documentation in New Zealand. So it wasn\u2019t until officials came in and said \u201CWell, you might want to have a six-month limit on that to actually make it practical\u201D that the Labour and New Zealand First members actually woke up to the idea of what they were doing, which was actually causing a lot more documentation and another set of processes within the farming sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENow, there were a couple of other little things in the bill as well that were changed at select committee: cost recovery for audits and accreditation, quite minor changes in regards to the unsafe exemption that is limited now to five years\u2014Federated Farmers wanted that to continue, but it now has the five-year limit on it. So, effectively, there are a number of other smaller changes, but the two fundamental things that came through the select committee process were the ownership of the NAIT data and also the liability for those that transport NAIT animals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIt is a major backdown by the Government in this area. We were never told by the Government why they wanted to get the data; we can only surmise that they wanted it for purposes that were not needed for this bill, that they wanted it in a manner which could be used on other purposes, and it was very obvious that there is no limitation on the Minister in being able to pass on this information\u2014basically, any Government organisation can apply and basically get this information from the Minister once the Minister has it. Why they would want ownership is something that was never explained to the select committee, and, really, left us\u2014as members of the Opposition\u2014and also the submitters, thinking only the worst of this Government, as you would do, because they are not in the interests of anybody in the agriculture sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237b6929fa5734d9e89328628f4507383\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022733923db21be4a2aa48cef209184e477\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: And we\u2019ve seen that\u2014and they may laugh over there, but this is one of the steps that they have done to attack the farming sector, and the National Party stood up for farmers and got the result we needed. New Zealand First were backing the Labour Party in trying to nationalise the assets of farmers\u2014that\u2019s what they were doing in this bill. We stood up, we stopped it, we used their own lawyers against them, and we managed to get a result which is fair and reasonable for New Zealanders and for New Zealand farmers. It\u2019s a win for the Opposition and another failure for that failing Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u002216f8e38a3d43488ea0cdd14f9ebda577\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216f8e38a3d43488ea0cdd14f9ebda577\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak to the National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT) legislation that is before us this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EAs the deputy chair of our Primary Production Committee, I often have the opportunity to follow directly behind the chairperson, the Hon David Bennett. It\u2019s an interesting experience having to follow that member in these discussions, which are so fundamentally important to all of rural New Zealand and our agricultural sector. For a sector that contributes so much to our rural communities\u2019 economic background and to our nation\u2019s export prosperity, you often want to come into this House and speak to the bill and the things it does for our communities. However, I\u2019m often tasked with the job of having to respond to misinformation consistently from that member that chairs our Primary Production Committee\u2014and I just have to put on record that it\u2019s disappointing, to say the least.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe Mycoplasma bovis outbreak for New Zealand\u2014we\u2019ve set aside just under a billion bucks as a nation to tackle just the trauma that that\u2019s caused throughout our country. I would have thought, for a party that prides itself on wanting to stand up for rural New Zealand, for the farmers of this country, that the Opposition\u2019s lead spokesperson on these matters would have turned and spoken to the impacts of that biosecurity outbreak, to the bill that was introduced\u2014this national animal tracing system that was introduced in 2012, that was found to be woefully deficient in its application.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe first real test of the NAIT system was just prior to the last general election. This was consuming the minds and the lives of rural New Zealand, as many of us will know because we live in those regions. Many of us know there was a lot of fear that was coming out at that time in mid-2017, when it became very apparent that the system that our farmers were reliant upon to ensure that we could trace the animals, to ensure that we could track where these biosecurity incursions were coming from\u2014it was really traumatic for farmers up and down the country when we realised that the trust, faith, and confidence that they had in the previous Government to administer a system that would protect our biosecurity was woefully inept.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ESo I would have thought that that member David Bennett, who chairs this select committee, the Primary Production Committee, would have stood up and had the humility to actually turn to the deficiencies of that system. I would have thought that that member would have spoken to the merits of this bill that we have been considering since\u2014I think it was introduced late last year. We\u2019ve had some tremendous submissions from a broad range of stakeholders, from big farmers and corporates that are mindfully watching over, I guess, the overarching regulatory environment all the time\u2014the Dairy NZs, the Fonterras, the Federated Farmers\u2014through to those farmers that have had to watch the eradication of their stock, through to those farmers that have lost a lot during this entire process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EIt was Miles Anderson from Federated Farmers\u2014he\u2019s a spokesperson for their meat and wool sector. He came to the select committee and he said that the NAIT system simply had to work and it didn\u2019t. And it failed our communities. It failed our regional New Zealand. In his remarks\u2014and I think his remarks really got to the substance of why we\u2019re here this afternoon debating this legislation\u2014he said, look, you know, farmers didn\u2019t want to be woefully negligent. They didn\u2019t go about to undermine the requirements that were set out in that 2012 Act. But there wasn\u2019t enough resource put into educating those farmers that had to administer the system, there wasn\u2019t enough resource in terms of ensuring it was seamless and it actually worked, and there wasn\u2019t enough time and energy in that initial legislation to ensure that the regulatory mechanisms to ensure compliance with the system actually functioned effectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ESo I turn to what this bill actually does and what we heard submissions on through the select committee process. I want to start with\u2014normally I wouldn\u2019t start with this, but this is where I want to start\u2014the mechanisms by which we think it is important. And for all those we heard submissions from\u2014like I said, Federated Farmers, Dairy NZ\u2014there was a general consensus that it was very important to lift the penal regime. The penalties as were first introduced under the initial legislation in 2012 were very minimal. If you failed to tag an animal: $150 fine. Those penalties have been lifted. We have lifted those penalties\u2014so it might be a mistake, but we\u2019ve lifted it to ensure that there are fewer mistakes\u2014to $400. Where there is a failure to register stock, those initial penalties were around $300. We\u2019ve lifted that to $800 to ensure that, again, we\u2019ve got the right mechanisms to ensure compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EI think some of the substantive penalties that we\u2019ve really made amendments to in this bill, where there are individual failures and these are blatant failures to administer and perform the functions required of persons in charge of animals (PICAs) under the Act\u2014the initial maximum penalty in the 2012 Act was $10,000. We have substantively increased those\u2014with the, I guess you could say, permission or with the blessing of the industry\u2014to $100,000 to show that non-compliance with this Act simply will not be tolerated. If you read any of the analysis on how M. bovis was introduced into New Zealand, there was a consistent view, I guess, that had this system been working right at that time and people had done what they were meant to do, it wouldn\u2019t be costing our country a billion bucks. So that\u2019s at the individual level we\u2019re increasing those penalties, but at the corporate level, that\u2019s where, I guess, the rubber really hits the road. So we\u2019ve increased those penalties from $20,000 to $200,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard\u2014well, I think amongst the drivel that we heard before\u2014there was a bit of a comment around data ownership. I do want to acknowledge the comments that the Minister Damien O\u0027Connor made in this respect and also those that submitted on this point. It was a point that we received substantive submissions on\u2014as to who actually owned the data that feeds into the NAIT system. This was a legal ambiguity, and that was something that we received advice on from the Ministry for Primary Industries. Why our side of the House, at the very least, agreed that this is something that should lie silent for now is because there was no conclusive view as to where actual ownership does lie. So I want to acknowledge those officials who took the time to inform us as members, because it wasn\u2019t just that side; it was all of us that had shared concerns about the actual legal ownership of that data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ESecondly, another big issue that was really put to us, and there were some exceptional submissions to this point, was around whether or not transporters\u2014so those guys that drive the trucks, pick up the stock, take them from A to B\u2014would be legally responsible or liable under the amendments. And, under the first draft, they were; they were going to be legally responsible for transporting stock that hadn\u2019t been tagged. We heard some exceptional submissions in this respect, which really were persuasive amongst our select committee to ensure that we listened to those transporters. They weren\u2019t the targets of the NAIT scheme and this regime, and all legal liabilities would remain with the PICAs. So those were a couple of the amendments where I think we worked collectively across the House quite constructively to achieve those outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ESo, despite the rubbish that gets said in this House from some of the members of the Opposition, I want to acknowledge those who actually do work constructively to ensure that we\u2019re sticking up for rural New Zealand. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1205cafc29648529a008f3a9f11db67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1205cafc29648529a008f3a9f11db67\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to speak in favour of the National Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Bill (No\u00A02)\u2014let\u2019s call it \u201CNAIT\u201D\u2014here for the second reading, reporting back from a very robust select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EI would like to start, if I may, with just some reflections on the comments made by the previous speaker, Kiri Allan, who does some good work in the committee. But I think her summary of our critique of what has been put on the table misses the mark. She tried to frame it up as if somehow Mr Bennett, who\u2019s a very superb chair and I\u2019m sure we\u2019d all agree on this side around the contribution\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234c2dd0b2db04554911b06c470ecdc76\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: Well, now we know you\u2019re lying!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fc0bcc4b4a54a6192ec100d6ca3b\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, see, here we go. It\u2019s all very well to talk about humility and to try and anchor yourself with the tone of caring and then, the moment the Opposition holds a view, you just guffaw and try and tear the person down. I mean, they need to look in the mirror. But I\u2019d like to specifically reference the comments that were made by Kiri Allan when she talked about the importance of her approach in terms of approaching this issue from a position of humility and wondered why she thought there were aspects of Mr Bennett\u2019s very strong contribution this afternoon that were not anchored in the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWell, dare I say that she obviously wasn\u2019t listening to the contribution from the Minister, because this is what we have come to expect\u2014the way he framed up this bill, even though, for a number of months, in the context of our response to M. bovis, we have sought at all times to be appropriate, bipartisan, putting the farmers\u2019 interests first. You\u2019d expect that from the National Party. He immediately starts his contribution on the attack, framing us up, in terms of the critiques that we had round the select committee, as paranoia\u2014and I quote directly. And then, of course, the Government side wonders why we react. All I say directly to the Minister is that, instead of succumbing to the red mist that appears every day he appears in this place, he might want to focus on the food safety issues and the biosecurity issues which are front of mind. We\u2019re dealing, of course, with M. bovis. We have, essentially, an avian disease which is already impacting a number of South Island chicken farms in particular. We have swine flu on our doorstep. We have brown marmorated stink bugs on our doorstep. Mr O\u2019Connor, could we respectfully ask you to focus on doing your job as opposed to coming here and spending most of your speech trying to frame up how we are somehow culpable? It does him no credit, and that is why David Bennett\u2019s contribution was so robust and pointed and accurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EI would like to specifically raise comments and issues that came up through our select committee process. Firstly, as mentioned, we had a number of submissions. Our total was 70 submissions that we considered. We had 10 oral submitters who brought a significant industry experience and perspective to the table, which certainly the National Party found particularly interesting. We have already traversed a number of the issues that were front of mind as we reflected on this bill. The first, of course, was the issue around clarifying ownership of core data. I think the previous Government speaker has skipped over this somewhat. I accept that, at the end of our deliberations, we landed in a place that makes sense in terms of the bill being silent around ownership. But she omitted to make it very clear to the House that the bill as introduced had a very different view as to where ownership sat, and that was the specific intent of the bill. And, as we listened both to officials and, of course, to industry submitters, it became very clear that this was a relatively last-minute\u2014in fact, was a last-minute\u2014insertion into the bill by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ESo the issues that this has raised and the sort of nervousness in the sector over what was the true intent of actually putting that clause in, which made it clear that that ownership of that data would lie with the Crown\u2014that all sits with the Minister, because he chose to put it in. It caught the industry by surprise. It\u2019s all very well standing here and talking about the importance of the industry working together to identify the failings of the NAIT system and, where we can, collectively improve it only to put in, at the eleventh hour, a piece of legislative intent which, essentially, as Mr Bennett, I think quite aptly, put it, sought to nationalise the data, and then wonder why there was such a reaction from the industry. It was poor process. He was caught by it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThe area that I\u2019d like to move on to next is the obligations that sat in the original bill for transporters in particular to be accountable should there be any stock on their truck that wasn\u2019t appropriately tagged and in the NAIT system. We in particular\u2014the National Party side\u2014right from the start signalled that we had major concerns with this, as, again, Mr Bennett earlier articulated. It gives us the sense\u2014and we see it pretty much every day, in terms of our Primary Production Committee deliberations\u2014that the Government\u2019s side are devoid, I think, of very many members who are anchored in the reality of farming and anchored in the reality of the implications of the legislation they put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2936323004d4b7b938cf5165423d405\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not fair\u2014that\u2019s not fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022093d330aaf4a4c6895e01d9d15a6daaa\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER\u003C/span\u003E: It became very clear to us right from the first submission that this was a flaw in the proposed bill. And I hear them saying, \u201CWell, it\u2019s not fair.\u201D Look, ultimately, Government, you have to take accountability for the legislation you frame up and put into the select committee. If it is identified as deficient in thinking, if it\u2019s identified as deficient in intent, then you\u2019d expect us as the Opposition to critique it, to identify your failings and ensure that it\u2019s changed. That\u2019s what\u2019s happened here, and it was a very strong pushback from the National Party that identified the issue. We listened to the transporters. We understood the fact that putting with them the obligation, the ultimate legal obligation, to ensure that animals are tagged when they are simply a transporter from A to B was clearly not the right outcome. We have sought changes, and we have seen changes to clause 12, particularly new section 31A, which gives transporters some comfort that now the obligation sits with the persons in charge of an animal to have certified for the transporter that all those animals are indeed appropriately tagged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EOne issue that I would like to touch on, in conclusion, really relates to an area that hasn\u2019t come up yet in our conversations. It came up during the course of our deliberations, and I think it\u2019s an important message to get out there, and that is that for all the changes that sit in this legislation today that we\u2019re reflecting on, it still doesn\u2019t deal with what I would call the operational clunkiness that farmers have to experience in terms of the day-to-day engagement with the NAIT system. Now, we were given very strong feedback and commitment by NAIT themselves and the officials that support this Government that that would be an area of focus and outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWell, certainly from the National Party side, we have a very strong expectation that that\u2019s going to be followed through, because as all of us know, when we strip our particular partisan perspectives away from this debate, part of the success of compliance is actually the rules\u2014and that side have particularly focused on that\u2014but the other is the culture that exists in a sector and, in particular, the ease of the operational interface. If they have been designed in a way that makes it easy for farmers to update and it\u2019s intuitive and it reflects the day-to-day reality of farming, then you\u2019ll find that the compliance will lift. That, ultimately, is not a function of rules and regulations and legislation that we are debating here today; it is, in my opinion, a function of the capability of the management of the NAIT team to be able to identify and put in place a system that can be incrementally improved, year on year, that works for our farmers\u2019 day-to-day realities. I do hope\u2014and this side of the House very much expects\u2014that that is a priority for the organisation and is appropriately supported by this Government over the next few months and years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ELook, in conclusion, this is a solid bill. It is a bill that is needed, and we have collectively, through our unique Primary Production Committee style, landed on a bill that we think will make the system better, will make it more effective, but, ultimately, as I\u2019ve mentioned before, the test of that will be the commitment that the farmers have to the system and the ease that the farmers have in terms of using the system for their own business benefit. Thank you very much, and I certainly support this bill this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022f54aa32aff49402190d2b82aaded6ff7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f54aa32aff49402190d2b82aaded6ff7\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure for me to rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support this National Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Bill (No 2) to make sure that our primary biosecurity response and animal tracing programme is fit for purpose. Just picking up on some of the comments that were made by the previous speaker, Todd Muller, there has been a real effort within this Mycoplasma bovis biosecurity outbreak to depoliticise this, because there was some squabbling at the start which wasn\u2019t doing our farmers any good. This was a significant outbreak, and it was time for us to support our farmers, not to play political games. So it\u2019s a little disappointing to see that reversing out a little bit this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThere has been, with this biosecurity outbreak, a huge threat to our bovine agriculture sector, about $20 billion, or probably close to $25 billion between dairy and beef. We found that we had a National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT) system that was found wanting. Frankly, we had inherited a scheme that had been administered in benign neglect. Quite extraordinarily, in terms of enforcement, there had been one $150 fine up until that outbreak. That was the fact of the matter. It had almost been totally unenforced. We heard through the select committee process that non-compliance of the NAIT system could have been as high as 50 percent, and, boy, have we paid that price. The cost of dealing with this Mycoplasma bovis outbreak, which has been complicated incredibly by a lack of ability to trace animals as was intended, and is actually the purpose of the scheme, has cost us\u2014we have allocated $900 million to that response. If there was ever an example of this Government getting behind our farmers and sitting alongside our farmers, that has got to be it. For those just tuned in or listening in on radio, the previous bill was the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No\u00A02), another example of this Government getting beside its farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s absolutely imperative that we have a system that works well. Cattle, particularly beef cattle, are traded heavily. There is a lot of movement of cattle. We have to have an efficient system, and one of the key failings of the system is the tags. The tags often come out, and how that is dealt with is key to making sure that the system stays updated and accurate. One of the core issues is with unsafe animals, and through this process, we have a new category, \u201Cunsafe to tag\u201D. It was previously \u201Cimpractical to tag\u201D, and there is a difference there, because I think what was happening\u2014and with that 50 percent non-compliance, there was a portion of PICAs, or persons in charge of an animal, who just weren\u2019t really bothered. There was no enforcement; there was \u201Cjust put the animals on the truck and be done with it\u201D. We have tightened that up considerably and made \u201Cunsafe to tag\u201D as the threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important that that threshold remains, because for those of us that do live in rural New Zealand and do work on farms and have had a lot of experience in putting stock, cattle, on trucks, there are some cattle that are just dangerous. They need to get on a truck and they need to go to the works. That\u2019s the place for them to be, but it is a health and safety matter for those farmers to not have to take their own health into their own hands by being absolutely obligated to have a tag in the ear. But we have to have that threshold high so that it is a genuinely unsafe animal\u2014does have to be visibly rattled\u2014and we are looking to have that review in five years to make sure that that system has not been taken advantage of, as it had potentially been previously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThe other thing I think it does, just talking about the non-compliance before and that single $150 fine\u2014what we had previously was that non-tagging of an animal was $150. That is now $400 under these proposals. Non-registration of an animal has gone up from $300 to $800. Of course, if this gets to court, if it\u2019s a particularly egregious case that gets to court, it was $10,000 for an individual farmer, family farmer; that has gone up to $100,000, and $20,000 for a corporate has gone up to $200,000. So this bill now has teeth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been quite a lot of discussion around the privacy and who has the access to the information or who owns the information, and that\u2019s been traversed by previous speakers. I guess my comment on that would be how the Government let this key information get into private hands in the first place. We\u2019re not here to relitigate that. We\u2019re here to work out how we can make the best of a situation that probably should not have been. We did take on a lot of advice, and we did land in a place that made the information more available to the Minister so that the data can be available to the likes of the police or territorial authorities, and it has clarified some of those provisions. It exempts animal compliance officers who, essentially, could have been classified as PICAs, or persons in charge of an animal, if they are rounding up stray animals. It authorises the Director-General of the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) to access NAIT data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EOf course, this is a unique situation where this data is held by, essentially, a private company. The Minister for Biosecurity did say within his contribution that in real time, responding to a genuinely significant biosecurity outbreak, the lack of access to that information by him as a Minister had impeded the response of MPI. So it\u2019s now much clearer who can apply to access this data, and we did thrash that out through the select committee process. It was potentially a little bit loose. We know where the chain of command is now, and it\u2019s much clearer who has access.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThe work around the transport operators: as the bill was originally introduced, the transport operators were going to be caught up in this, and they\u2019re not totally exonerated, but they do have the ability to contract out or get a declaration from the PICA that the animals are tagged as they should be to be legally compliant. So it doesn\u2019t totally exonerate the transport operator, but it does take them out of full responsibility, because, essentially, it\u2019s not them that will not have tagged the animals. But what we found in real time is if those animals are getting on a truck not tagged, the transport operators have often known about this and not had any power to intervene and make sure. So there\u2019s an extra level of accountability for the PICAs in terms of not wanting to put their transport operators in a position of vulnerability. I would say it is credit to the farmers, and through the select committee process\u2014Miles Anderson from Federated Farmers was mentioned\u2014they said, \u201CIt is up to us. It\u2019s up to us as farmers to take responsibility for our animals, and we don\u2019t want the transport operators to be unintentionally captured in this.\u201D So that is to the credit of farmers and farming organisations that they are taking full responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo this is an evolving process, I think, this NAIT process. I personally believe that we have to look to some alternative technologies. I think the tags are not\u2014you know, that\u2019s where it breaks down a lot of the time, when the tags come out, and they do come out; probably, in my experience, 10 to 15 percent of them will come out in the lifetime an animal. So that\u2019s a significant issue, and we do have to keep evolving the system, but this is a step in the right direction. The Primary Production Committee has worked through the original bill well, improved the bill, and New Zealand First believe this is a further step in the right direction as we evolve our ability to respond to major biosecurity outbreaks. So we continue to support this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002267e389ccca124be4abc88d58b22afed6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267e389ccca124be4abc88d58b22afed6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just ask members on both sides of the House to remove the boxes and party files from their desks, please\u2014Mr McAnulty and Mr Guy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad070beeb28a420ba8c0cb12cab28043\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad070beeb28a420ba8c0cb12cab28043\u0022\u003EHAMISH WALKER (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E We all know the introduction of pests and disease into New Zealand carries a huge amount of risk, especially if we get some unwanted bugs or diseases past the border. You only need to look at what\u2019s happening currently. You\u2019ve got infectious bronchitis virus, which is a chicken disease. It\u2019s affected two chicken farms in Otago. Currently, the exports of chickens to Australia have been stopped because of this. Basically, once you have one farm in New Zealand that tested positive for the disease, it affects our exports greatly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EYou only need to look at Mycoplasma bovis: it hit the South Canterbury, North Otago region, also the Southland region hard, not just the financial costs, which will cost the Government and the industry close to a billion dollars, but the emotional costs, the emotional fallout. You know, you\u2019ve got young children seeing calves getting loaded on to trucks, getting taken away to the works, never to be seen again, and farmers\u2014they build up genetics over years, often decades, and often they know the cows individually. So it\u2019s heartbreaking for the children. You\u2019ve got the Queensland fruit fly. One fly costs about a million bucks to get rid of. You\u2019ve got to find it, you\u2019ve got to then eliminate it, so it\u2019s not a cheap exercise. You\u2019ve got stink bug. The stink bug incursion rate into New Zealand has increased tenfold over the last four or five weeks. And then you only need to look at foot-and-mouth. The predicted cost of foot-and-mouth hitting New Zealand would be about $16 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003ESo this bill here, the National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT) bill, which is all about tracking animals, tracking cows, tracking deer, for people who aren\u2019t quite familiar with this word, \u201CNAIT\u201D\u2014it\u2019s a good bill. It\u2019s not supposed to stop disease incursions into New Zealand, but it can stop the spread relatively quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EWith Mycoplasma bovis, some of the problems\u2014tracking these animals, through faults of the current system, is like a puzzle. It\u2019s like dropping a 1,000 piece puzzle on the desk and then trying to figure out where these cows, where these movements have been. I just want to talk briefly about several amendments the National Party suggested to the Primary Production Committee. I just want to acknowledge all members of that, including the hard-working chair, David Bennett. He does a very good job, a very neutral chair, and I appreciate that David gives everyone a fair go, and also the officials. He really respects the work that the officials do for the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003ESo the key points that the National Party are very happy with: one is around privacy; another around unsafe tagging and non-compliance. We had a big issue around privacy because we had the bizarre situation where you give your information to a public department, then it was being shared to a private company. It\u2019s good to see that changed, and also data duplication. You only need to ask a farming couple in Southland, Mr and Mrs McCallum\u2014they\u2019ve got 1,600 cows. They had to go through 80 different pages of data tracking, nine-digit numbers, and they basically had to track them up between NAIT and also another system called MINDA. So, hopefully, all these changes make it a bit easier for farmers. I just want to finish by acknowledging all the farmers affected by Mycoplasma bovis. Hopefully, we can get through this. And for those reasons, we support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022566dd5e29ef54b6aaa01acc85675cfbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022566dd5e29ef54b6aaa01acc85675cfbb\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. I rise on behalf of the Green Party to support this legislation, the National Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Bill (No 2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENow, the Green Party supports improving the National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT) regime because we need to have accurate information about what\u2019s happening to animals. Now, we were caught unprepared when Mycoplasma bovis hit New Zealand. It\u2019s cost us hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. Tens of thousands of animals have had to be slaughtered and our tracing regime wasn\u2019t up to snuff to deal with what was a serious biosecurity incursion. So this is about improving it. I acknowledge the previous speaker, Hamish Walker, and the difficulties many farmers have had engaging with the system previously. This is about improving the regime, because, ultimately, it\u2019s in all farmers\u2019 interests to make sure that we have a strong, robust regime that works, so when tragedy strikes we are prepared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENow, I wasn\u2019t on the Primary Production Committee, but I\u2019d like to acknowledge the members, acknowledge the chair, acknowledge all the submissions. I think it has been improved in the committee. Four big changes I\u2019d like to pull out. Now, the first: one of the reasons why NAIT was so ineffectual early on was the penalty was a miserly $150 per tagging offence and only $300 for registration offences. In the first reading speech, I said, \u201CThat\u2019s akin to being like slapped on the wrist with a wet bus ticket.\u201D And it\u2019s true, so I\u2019m glad the committee has increased those penalties from $150 to $400, $300 to $800\u2014still not massive penalties, but, hopefully, will act as more of a deterrent. Alongside the other benefits to make sure the regime is easier to work with, I\u2019m sure many more farmers will be complying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENow, the obligations around transport was a big area where the committee considered and made some amendments. Now, originally it was that any person moving a NAIT animal was liable. Now, what the committee has decided is that transport operators and drovers shouldn\u2019t have that strict liability. Now, part of the problem was that we know that so many NAIT animals were just being driven around by transport operators who didn\u2019t, I guess, have a stake in maintaining the NAIT requirements of those animals. Now, I think the committee\u2019s erred on the right side, because they\u2019ve said that under clause 12, which inserts new section 31A(2), transport operators or drivers are exempt if a declaration from the person in charge of the animal says that the animal was in the system. Now, what we\u2019re trying to do is encourage NAIT registration and tagging of the animals, as long as the transport operator gets that declaration from the person in charge of the animal. I think that\u2019s where it should lie, so it\u2019s fair to move that strict liability away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe committee has also recommended amending the legislation in terms of cost recovery. Obviously, the new NAIT system is more advanced. There will be greater administration costs as a result. So the previous old-fashioned per unit charge or flat fee system isn\u2019t really futureproofed. So the idea of a graduated fee response based on the number of animals makes a huge amount of sense. It\u2019s simply going to make sure that their resources are going on to make sure it can protect New Zealand and our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENow, the last area I\u2019d like to touch on is the access to data, because what the committee has done is clarify who\u2019s actually able to access the data. In terms of the Public Service, they can apply for a data access panel through the Ministry for Primary Industries in terms of, I think it\u2019s the 1955 legislation, what\u2019s it called, the territorial authorities\u2014the legislation about animals that are lost and councils have to go find them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c075353ae344ca392d98f1a5116df52\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: The pounds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a3f064ced0d43f3ae812427edc8c8ea\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: The cows?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b52f5c08509c447391a6d18b905259ea\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Pound.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef5150b9e3154c00a5e9253e6f97b747\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: The pound, that\u2019s right\u2014clarifying the relationship between data access and that old 1955 legislation. But I guess the big area where I wasn\u2019t privy to the conversations, but it looks a fascinating debate from the committee, was access and ownership\u2014not the access to data, that\u2019s been clarified, but it was the ownership of data. Previously, the understanding was this data was the Crown\u2019s, and the committee\u2019s decided to stay silent on this matter but, obviously, it\u2019s going to be a huge debate going forward. The committee has clarified, however, that the Minister can request that data. There is no cost fee in terms of undertaking the roles of the Minister to get an accurate understanding of the situation. This is an area that needs to be cleared up though, I believe, and ultimately I think, given the State\u2019s responsibility\u2014the State\u2019s very clear interest in it\u2014the State\u2019s ownership of that data, I think, is a very important issue. So I guess it\u2019s going to be a debate that\u2019s going to continue. But I\u2019d like to thank the committee for improving this legislation. The Green Party can continue to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022132bf40d76b94f949ec3390973542c4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022132bf40d76b94f949ec3390973542c4b\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s been a good afternoon and, I think, quite a good, reasoned debate on this National Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Bill (No 2). I remember when it came into the Primary Production Committee, and the debates in the House preceding that. This system, indeed, was tested with M. bovis, and it was found wanting in a number of areas. I think it\u2019s appropriate that the Government has moved to make the necessary changes. Of course, prior to that, we had a bill that came in under urgency with no consultation with industry, the public, or even the Opposition. So we certainly attacked that process, but I\u2019m pleased to see that this one has gone through the full transparency process involving industry and others that came and submitted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWhat it does do is it really clarifies a few things, but I think there is a bone of contention around who owns the data. It looks as though Government members pushed pretty hard to say that the Government owned the data. Industry said, \u201CWell, we own it.\u201D So it hasn\u2019t necessarily been easily clarified, but there\u2019s been a bit of a workaround that\u2019s been resolved by the Primary Production Committee and the good chairmanship of the Hon David Bennett. What it does mean is that the Minister can request some information or all of the information from the National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT) system at any time that he or she wishes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWhat has been also interesting in the debate, reading the bill, and through the select committee process, is the transport operators being liable for an animal that isn\u2019t indeed tagged. I felt from the start that that was never fair on those truckies, because when you consider it, often these truck drivers can turn up at any hour of the night to load out stock. It\u2019s not appropriate for the driver to be able to\u2014and often these yards aren\u2019t lit, so the driver may have a spotlight on the back of the trailer of the truck, may be able to see that some of the animals are all tagged, but there\u2019s no way that the driver would be able to see that all this particular load of animals are all tagged. So I think the committee has worked through a good process there and the onus is going to sit on the natural person in day-to-day charge of a NAIT animal, which is the person responsible for the animals to ensure that they are correctly tagged, and there will be a six-month lead-in process to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe other one was these unsafe animals, where there was another, I think, good robust debate in the Primary Production Committee at the time, because we need to be mindful of the fact that these can be very large bulls. They might be five years old. They could be a tonne in weight. Or stags could indeed be older and they get very, very aggressive at certain times of the year. So I think it\u2019s appropriate to say, well, there is a period of five years to allow the person in charge of the animal to tag these animals, and that will be reviewed in five years by NAIT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe other thing that we have some concern about on this side of the House is indeed the ministerial direction where the Minister of the day can say to the NAIT board, \u201CWell, here are all of my priorities and expectations under this term of Government, or indeed under the leadership of the Minister.\u201D So we don\u2019t agree that the Minister can just go and direct the NAIT board or senior NAIT staff to say, \u201CWell, here are all my individual priorities and expectations for the period that I\u2019m a Minister. You should follow suit or toe the line.\u201D So we have some concerns about that. We will take the opportunity in the committee process when the Minister is in the chair to ask him very specific questions around some of the areas that I\u2019ve canvassed today. But we do support the changes that are in the bill, and I think that the select committee has done a good job. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d00865467fd34ef3b1cc192c9b87e165\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d00865467fd34ef3b1cc192c9b87e165\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Marja Lubeck\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u00220982eff4c46a452c90f551de36c808f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220982eff4c46a452c90f551de36c808f6\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and it\u2019s a pleasure to take a short call on this National Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Bill (No 2). As we have heard, of course, the real test with National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT) was Mycoplasma bovis, and it was clear that that test and the scheme have failed. As the previous speaker, Mr Nathan Guy, mentioned, the scheme absolutely was found wanting. So this bill is an important milestone in dealing with the problems of the NAIT scheme. It is dealing with the incredibly detrimental impact for our provincial and regional communities when we had the outbreak of M. bovis, and it made it very clear that we had shortcomings in this NAIT scheme, which obviously needed to be addressed. So this bill will help address the poor tracking of animal movements because we need a well-functioning tracing system, because, as we have mentioned many times now, sadly, a disease affecting one farm can have a ripple effect all through rural communities and, as a result, through the whole economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ENow, the changes that this bill makes in a well-functioning NAIT scheme will help maintain the confidence not only of the sector but of the wider industry, and, of course, also of our overseas markets. I wasn\u2019t party to the Primary Production Committee process, but I\u2019ve heard several of my colleagues\u2014Kiritapu Allan, Mark Patterson\u2014mention very eloquently the issues with penalties and non-compliance. And, quite frankly, it made a lot more sense than the waffle that we\u2019ve heard by the member David Bennett, who actually is very rude to officials, so I\u2019m not sure why so much praise is heaped upon him when, whenever I see him in action, he is actually very rude.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThis bill shows clearly that this Government is committed to working with farmers so that they get more value for what they do. It is this bill, as well as the previous bill that was under discussion before, that completely fits with this Government\u2019s plan to help farmers meet the issues head on, after, of course, we\u2019ve seen National ignoring any of the challenges facing that sector. This bill, as we have heard, reflects the wide range of feedback that submitters have brought to the select committee process. And from what I\u2019ve heard from speakers previously, it has been a very robust process that has resulted in this bill. So this bill, as a result, then, clarifies provisions. It closes some of the exemptions, which, quite frankly, should not be in place and closes a very big hole that exists currently in biosecurity tracing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EIt is really clear from what we\u2019ve heard today and in previous speeches that a previous National Government completely ignored the scheme. I mean, one non-compliance notice in four years\u2014you\u2019ve got to wonder. Mr Walker, in fact, with his examples that he mentioned, clearly outlined that his National Government left us a legacy of haphazard attitudes towards biosecurity that this Government now is cleaning up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ESo to conclude, then, after nine years of neglect and a National Government that completely ignored the scheme, we are taking action, tackling New Zealand\u2019s long-term challenges head on, making life better, and I commend this bill to the House. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00220ceccfd3ab644c8b905b47ca45c75aa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ceccfd3ab644c8b905b47ca45c75aa3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Matt King\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022 data-id=\u002273461b4661524324bea6f39ddd6d8925\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273461b4661524324bea6f39ddd6d8925\u0022\u003EMATT KING (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I think the Labour members over there have got to get some new material, get some new lines\u2014that \u201Cnine years of neglect\u201D is wearing very thin. The facts don\u2019t back it up, so get some new material, get your spin doctors working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EWe at National, we kicked off a review of National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT) in 2016 and we acknowledge that it has been severely tested by Mycoplasma bovis and it\u2019s been found wanting. We acknowledge that. This bill amends NAIT to make improvements to the framework governing it, so I acknowledge that. It\u2019s all about animal tracing and identification, but it also overlaps into biosecurity and food safety. So we\u2019re supporting this bill. We want to ensure that it\u2019s fit for purpose and that it\u2019s working. You know, when we\u2019re in Opposition, unlike the Government, we don\u2019t oppose everything for the sake of opposing. We\u2019ve supported a good portion of the bills that have gone through the House in the last two years. We\u2019ve supported them. Some of them are our bills so, of course, we support them\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022152bcd26cba34baca8da5ffb2c8ca56f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Most of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d63d4351a6b48808d194d7a87858816\u0022\u003EMATT KING\u003C/span\u003E: Most of them are our bills, actually\u2014yeah. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EThere were 92 submissions; 10 gave oral evidence. I was privy to about an hour or two of submissions when I subbed in on the Primary Production Committee. I\u2019m a farmer myself, so I know all the issues to do with NAIT. National recommended removing the reference to core data being the property of the Crown as it could be problematic, and I understand that. Also exempting transport operators\u2014I was in the select committee when the transport operators were coming in. And when you\u2019re a truck driver and you\u2019re loading cattle late at night, and especially wild cattle, ensuring that they\u2019re all NAIT-tagged would be a nightmare. And so it\u2019s just a practical amendment to the bill to be realistic. So the farmer takes the liability. He takes that off the transport operators\u2019 books, so I agree with that. We requested it. Amending unsafe tags to cover over five years\u2014I\u2019ve had cattle on my farm that you could not get near a cattle yard, and in fact, recently, I had to have one destroyed because of that; it was out of control. So I think it\u2019s a good amendment to the bill to allow that\u2014just a practical way. And so we need to improve our system, our system of traceability. We all agree to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EI understand when NAIT came it was phased in over a period of time. And for me, it necessitates the purchase of a $2,000 scanning gun plus the NAIT tags themselves. It\u2019s really expensive. And I found that is a decent-sized expense for a farm my size. Also, the NAIT issues are hard. When I\u2019m buying stock off neighbouring farms or nearby farms, they\u2019re meant to scan them and send it away. Well, my experience with doing that with NAIT has been a nightmare, actually\u2014I\u2019ll be honest with you. I\u2019ve scanned all my animals on my farm and sent them in to NAIT in a nice little spreadsheet, left messages for them, phoned them, emailed them several times, and not one reply. So I think there are issues at the moment with the NAIT system and I\u2019d like to see that they are sorted out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EHaving one NAIT number per farm location is a good idea. In the previous situation there you could have one NAIT number for a farmer and he could have several farms, or two or three, and so that\u2019s a sensible amendment. I agree with that. And non-compliance with NAIT is a real concern, and I understand that. It\u2019s a frustration for farmers, it\u2019s a frustration for NAIT, but non-compliance is an issue. If you have a system that\u2019s foolproof and you have a NAIT system that works, you would have more compliance from farmers. I acknowledge that. My own experience was sending in information and it not being loaded\u2014very frustrating for me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EAnd privacy issues\u2014I see this bill solves the privacy issues around information being shared and it increases the penalties: $10,000 to $100,000; $20,000 for body corporates to $200,000; for minor, small-scale offending, $300 to $800; failing to tag offence, $150 to $400\u2014it makes sense. In terms of data access, I had\u2014some people had some stock stolen, the thief put them through the works. They got notified that their stock had gone through the works, and applied to the freezing works for the information to try and track down who put it through. The freezing works cited privacy issues and didn\u2019t produce it. So I\u2019m glad to see that those sorts of issues will be sorted out. So, all in all, a reasonable bill; I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022979d4323224d4453ab8d762c0415b374\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022979d4323224d4453ab8d762c0415b374\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s with pleasure that I rise in support of this National Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Bill (No 2). Why am I pleased to rise in support of this bill? Because this bill is going to go a long way to protecting our $46.4 billion primary sector industry, which is hugely important to this country and the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI just wanted to touch on a couple of things that members opposite have brought up previously. The Hon David Bennett: he\u2019s talked about some of these changes that have been made to the initial legislation as being a big win for National. Well, I challenge that member, because I was once the deputy chair of the Primary Production Committee and, actually, it is a split committee, equal members on either side, so nothing necessarily will get through unless both sides agree. So whilst this select committee process has included some extremely robust conversations and discussions, I disagree with the fact that one thing or the other has been a big win for the National Party. And, actually, I find that quite disappointing, and I find it very insensitive of that member to politicise something like this when I have come from an area which has been hugely affected by Mycoplasma bovis. So I find the fact that this bill is being politicised very, very disappointing as, I\u2019m quite sure, the farming and rural communities of Rangitata will too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8f385eb702a42689cec7d5a58e2c3c7\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: No, they\u2019re very thankful, actually. They just want you gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246490f9cb1364f00a3731f525761d572\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s fine, Mr Bennett, if you want to make fun of it and make light of it, go right ahead; so much for the party that is for the farmers and fights for the farmers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EAnyway, I would just like to move on from that. We had another member talk about the expense involved with National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT) tagging. Well, actually, I say that that\u2019s a very small price to pay when it comes to protecting our biosecurity for this country. I also want to mention the fact that I am no longer a member of that select committee, but I have sat on it maybe once\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eecdabf078f84efba564f73537844309\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: And that\u2019s a shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272eeaf267eb04f8cbc279d840b0ea1e7\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014why thank you, Mr Bennett\u2014or twice during the process of this piece of legislation going through. Now, we know that there are a couple of recent events which have highlighted the deficiencies within our NAIT system and how it\u2019s been inadequate, actually, at best. One was an industry-led review that was held from 2016 to 2018. But the biggest event that we\u2019ve had that highlights the inadequacies of the NAIT system is the outbreak of Mycoplasma bovis, the cost of which has been absolutely huge. I think by the time\u2014working towards eradication, there\u2019ll be close to a billion dollars that will have been spent on eradication. And we know that this would have been a lot less had the NAIT system been working well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWhilst the financial cost has been huge, it is nothing, in my view, compared to the personal cost\u2014the stress that it\u2019s caused families, the mental health that has suffered in our rural communities when dealing with the issue of having to destroy their animals, the impact on our communities, the impact on people who were friends, neighbours. So no longer can we simply afford, financially, and on a personal level, to sit back and do nothing. I think there\u2019s been talk about one person having, I guess, been punished, if you like, over the past few years for not doing what they\u2019re meant to do as far as this NAIT system goes, and I think that\u2019s actually appalling. It is appalling when it is something that is so important to our biosecurity. So we can\u2019t continue to have a bit of a haphazard attitude towards biosecurity, as my colleague Marja Lubeck mentioned earlier. And so there is now going to be an increase in penalties for non-compliance, and I think that is long overdue. It has been well-traversed by previous speakers about what the different amounts of non-compliance are going to change to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThere was talk before about the change for the transport operators. I think, as the piece of legislation was initially introduced, they were going to perhaps be held liable for transporting animals that didn\u2019t have proper NAIT tags, etc. But there have been some great submissions around that, one being from Nick Leggett, the Road Transport Forum chief executive. He talked about the fact that the freight industry was 100 percent behind protecting New Zealand\u2019s biosecurity, but, as has been mentioned by members opposite, it can be difficult for transport operators when collecting animals. We\u2019ve heard about, you know, being at night when visibility is low, etc., etc. So now the transport operators are no longer going to be captured within this piece of legislation, but, actually, the onus is going to be on the farmer or the person selling the livestock. So I think that\u2019s really great for the truck drivers, in this instance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EAnother thing that I wanted to touch on was the fact that there have been changes made so that the PICA, or the person in charge of animals, cannot use a tag that\u2019s been issued for an animal at one location on an animal at another location. I think there\u2019s been a bit of an allowance for a bit of a transitional-type period, I guess, whereby they don\u2019t have to\u2014they\u2019ve got 12 months before that will come into effect, so they can continue to use up the tags that they currently have, etc., although it is in the best interests of our farmers to start acting in the best way possible and moving forward with this, at pace. I don\u2019t think the country can afford to sit back and wait for this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThere was also the fact that, prior to this, it was voluntary for declaration of non-NAIT animals, but now that\u2019s going to be mandatory. I think what this comes down to, again, is the fact that this is a big deal when it comes to our biosecurity, our risks, and potential incursions. Prior to this, we\u2019ve had animals that have been onsold, moved around the country\u2014we cannot trace where they have come from. We\u2019ve seen that with the outbreak of Mycoplasma bovis\u2014the difficulty in finding out where this animal has come from, who sold it to whom, and so on and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ESo this piece of legislation\u2014I\u2019m hugely proud to commend it to the House and I look forward to seeing this go through the third reading and see it become legislation. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022aed9056e6b094c90bc8ea2d3e76fdc53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aed9056e6b094c90bc8ea2d3e76fdc53\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Moving livestock around New Zealand is an everyday part of farming in our country. We need to get the rules right around this and, certainly, with this piece of legislation, we can acknowledge that changes needed to be made. A review was actually kicked off in 2016 to look at ensuring that we were in the right space with that, and I think we can all accept that we weren\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EChanges have subsequently been made, and some of the proposals in this particular amendment bill are necessary. Increasing the fines is a good aspect within that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EOne of the key elements that I\u2019m absolutely glad we\u2019ve seen change from what was originally proposed is around that transport operator liability. We\u2019ve already heard it mentioned a few times, but the impracticalities of expecting a transport operator to be able to identify animals as they\u2019re flying on to a truck at speed in the middle of the night\u2014it is not entirely realistic. So it\u2019s good to see we have achieved a change in that space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThe other big one that we heard about from Mr Bennett, when he talked at the start, was around the ownership of that data, and that was actually one aspect that I suspect hadn\u2019t been wholly understood by the Government when they were looking to put forward these amendments in terms of understanding\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238df143c48744f5791fa21893be48b45\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: They knew what they were wanting\u2014they wanted to nationalise it. Don\u2019t underestimate these commies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f2e001cdead4b7b8f2ba5b7748d8f8e\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the implications of what they were proposing. Of course, the more sinister option is that perhaps they were looking to do something with that, or, indeed, a theme that we\u2019ve seen over the last two years around Government wanting to control much more than indeed they needed to, and in this case, I\u2019m glad that we have seen that change has not actually occurred and the ownership of the core data does not sit with the Crown in terms of this piece of legislation. It\u2019s been omitted altogether, so that\u2019s appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, M. bovis\u2014the Mycoplasma bovis\u2014obviously, has been a devastating biosecurity incursion that we\u2019ve been dealing with in the dairy and beef sector, and that\u2019s ongoing. Now, the National Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Act is important to ensure that tracking those movements minimises that risk, and I think it\u2019s fair enough to say that perhaps had there been some stronger elements, maybe it would have been different and maybe it wouldn\u2019t. We can\u2019t spend too much time looking back on that, but we actually need to focus on getting this in the right space, and I think we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019d just like to take a moment to acknowledge all of those farmers that have gone through the terrible challenges presented by Mycoplasma bovis and, indeed, those who are still in that phase, where they are currently a confirmed infected property or under an ownership direction, or whatever stage they may be in. It is tough and it\u2019s difficult, and there is the help out there, so I would encourage them to reach out and make sure they have support through that process. The Rural Support Trust, in particular, have been doing some fantastic work in that space, so I commend them for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWith biosecurity in general\u2014and this is a part of it\u2014it\u2019s important to have controls when breaches happen, but, actually, we need to make sure that we\u2019re getting the right investment up front to minimise the likelihood of incursions, not just in the dairy and beef sector but actually in horticulture, as well, and there are some significant risks in that space. We have seen it over the last summer as well, with the brown marmorated stink bug and the Queensland fruit flies. These are incursions that, typically, do come in at the borders and they have so far been contained, but it\u2019s an ongoing and ever-present risk. So whilst we\u2019re supporting this bill\u2014and I\u2019d like to just reiterate that\u2014biosecurity needs to remain a strong focus, and we need to have continued strong investment in that. Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb71d3b54abe4bc786d4b83d542290d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb71d3b54abe4bc786d4b83d542290d2\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it truly is a delight to stand here and speak on the National Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Bill (No 2), and I want to start by acknowledging most of the speakers from the National Party because, for once, on the whole, we\u2019ve actually said pretty much the same things\u2014pretty much the same things. They have acknowledged that the initial bill was substandard, and I want to acknowledge that, and good on them for that. We acknowledge that even though you\u2019ve got to start somewhere\u2014you put proposals out and the select committee process is there to change bills and improve them\u2014this bill has improved because of the solid contribution from most of the National members of the select committee. So, on that basis, I think that it is a great message, yet again, for the second bill in a row that the members of this House can work together on matters that are important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EOf course, you know, we have overcome some pretty difficult situations. We have worked together, despite having David Bennett as the chair of the Primary Production Committee. That man is so worried about his reputation now that he has cajoled his friends Nathan Guy, Todd Muller, and I think it was even Matt King, who said something nice about him. I\u2019ve been an MP for two years, and I have never heard anyone say something nice about David Bennett. Now, all of a sudden, the focus comes on the chair of the select committee, and three speakers in a row say something nice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221411d23bb1bc4e7b91ab6fb0a2340ff4\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Deceitful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022978e421959d0460aaa6e8b72c147fe10\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, is it appropriate for a member of Parliament to call another member deceitful? I\u2019m not sure it is\u2014no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209c1b509f0b54edc9b0a96ae7f709739\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you taking a point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022074001b21ee740f2afff5c2a6e2715a5\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You know, we all like a bit of banter in this House. We all like to poke a bit of fun, but I think it\u2019s a bit unparliamentary to call another member deceitful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfb80365d54144ca9ab6c3234985edc0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t hear the comment, myself, and I don\u2019t know who it came from, but if a member did use that word, then I\u2019d ask him to withdraw. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231824ef27710426aa2fd7da6de56c875\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fd86b4ae2454948802a99daaaff4ab1\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. I appreciate that, David Bennett. Thank you\u2014thank you. You know, it all gets a bit heated in the House, so there\u2019s rules for a reason. There are rules for a reason. Don\u2019t look at David Bennett, he\u2019s going a bit red\u2014\u201CBeetroot Bennett\u201D they call him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAnyway, back to the bill. There are some changes in here that have come out of the select committee\u2014and I repeat that that indeed is what the select committee process is for, to improve the bill\u2014and the one that I am actually really pleased it has improved is the obligations that were proposed to be on the carriers of livestock. The fact is that when you are in a situation where the country is facing something unprecedented like Mycoplasma bovis and the initial legislation is proven to be inadequate, it is actually difficult to know where to start as to how to fix it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe crucial question here is where does responsibility lie when it comes to tracing, because that is, essentially, what we want to do. We want to have a tracing system that everyone has confidence in and one where we can\u2014if it\u2019s needed\u2014trace back to the source of an outbreak of some disease like Mycoplasma bovis. But, in fairness to both sides of this House, the days of finger-pointing around Mycoplasma bovis are long gone. It started when we wanted to bring in a response, but very quickly it stopped, and I think that\u2019s good, because both sides of this House recognise that what this Government, supported by the Opposition, is trying to do with Mycoplasma bovis is something that no other country has done before: eradicate something like that disease, which has spread around pretty much the whole country, essentially, by tracing it back when there are gaps in the system. It is, essentially, those gaps in the system that this bill is trying to address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo the question that we faced was: where does the responsibility lie? Whose responsibility is it to ensure that at the point of cartage, which is the key element here, where it\u2019s tracing for the moving around of livestock\u2014at what point in that transaction does responsibility lie? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe question was floated: should it lie on the transport operators? We got submissions. I had submissions in my office in Masterton, the most compelling of which was from Martinborough Transport, who came in and said \u201CLook, we understand what you\u2019re trying to do. You need to pass this bill\u2014it is a good bill\u2014but we don\u2019t think it\u2019s fair for responsibility to lie on the carriers.\u201D, and I agreed, and, actually, the members on our side of the House in the select committee, once we heard the submissions and heard what the submitters had to say, agreed also. So I think it\u2019s a good move. It\u2019s a good move, and it has improved this bill in terms of confidence in the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe heard Matt King, the one-term member from Northland. He said that\u2014[Interruption] Well, he\u2019s only served one term. He\u2019s only served one term. Jeez, they\u2019re very sensitive, aren\u2019t they? They are very, very sensitive over there. Goodness gracious me! Anyway, Matt King\u2014he stood up and he talked about the difficulties\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a54843e980bf4062a72c7b54f2a8b072\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a54843e980bf4062a72c7b54f2a8b072\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder if that member would explain if being a one-term member is more than that member is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8ae06ebe94542f29405aa9c1f20ccb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8ae06ebe94542f29405aa9c1f20ccb1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a point of order. The question is that the motion be agreed to. Those of that opinion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222146ed8440fc40a096acff44cb002d3f\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022223644eaeb414ea0b0aae2faf75193c5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a vote going on. Sit down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002249bb7d7c90684fd4856b4e57fa2e9a7a\u0022\u003EOrgan Donors and Related Matters Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002241bdf57a12d449c59fd4ad421faae987\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000545\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 7 November.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00221f95b0190be64949b5bf514f49400ebf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f95b0190be64949b5bf514f49400ebf\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a delight to pick up on the 18 seconds of wonderful contribution I made the last time we were considering this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re in the third and final reading of the Organ Donors and Related Matters Bill, and it is a pleasure to be taking a call on this. This is a delicate piece of legislation. Any time we\u2019re talking about organ donation, it is a very sensitive topic\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd8af341be0c4903bf0c9420dca4e1b3\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Even Darroch thinks it\u2019s funny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289f35125983f482887134734766901b3\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014and I\u2019m sure Mr Muller would agree with me that it\u2019s something we need to be very mindful of when we are working through numerous debates in this House. I\u2019d encourage members to have a little bit more decorum when we\u2019re talking about organ donation. It is a serious topic, and making light of the situation I don\u2019t think is appropriate in this setting. I would like to commend\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c7dae9805274af0af7dd6dae2454c58\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213196a3112914593be866716075e3fb8\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Again! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293550da78a404ec5a645ec37e7858cbd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014it\u2019s come time for me\u2014[Interruption] Order! I am on my feet. It\u2019s come time for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f57579a9977b4e6c8d5045534f8836e3\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc70d5a5e8b449aeab28c774d7f03326\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Take three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8ac1adc51df4b6ab4949d6773de7b26\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: This is my third attempt now on this call, and I\u2019ve advanced so far one minute. So I\u2019m looking forward to continuing this fantastic contribution. I won\u2019t drag it out too much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EBut look, this is a really important piece of legislation here. It is a sensitive issue; I was just touching on that before the dinner break as well. Organ donation rates in New Zealand have been increasing but are still much lower than we\u2019d like them to be, 13 per million as of last year, which is quite a low rate. At the moment, as I understand, the waiting list for people who are looking for organ or tissue transplants is over 550 people. So there is certainly a need to focus on increasing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThis bill comes about as a result of the Increasing Deceased Organ Donation and Transplantation: A national strategy paper that was released in 2017. And there are some good processes in here to try and lift that rate of donation. Of course, anyone who becomes deceased and is looking to or has previously indicated an intent to donate organs\u2014it\u2019s a very sensitive time, as I mentioned, for their family. Of course they\u2019re going through a grieving process and there are some difficult decisions to make. This helps to tidy up that; helps to encourage a few more people to get involved with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud to say I have \u201Cdonor\u201D on my driver\u2019s licence as well. It\u2019s fantastic and I\u2019d encourage everyone in this House to consider that if they\u2019re not already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThis is a good piece of legislation. We\u2019re supporting it at this stage. I look forward to seeing some positive increases in donation rates as a result. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u0022c79f7d0bf20346df985828e81afbcb53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c79f7d0bf20346df985828e81afbcb53\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to take a call on this, the final reading of the Organ Donors and Related Matters Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EKiwis, we\u2019re really well known for giving the shirt off our back but we\u2019re not so great about giving one of our organs. There\u2019s considerable tapu around giving organs. There\u2019s a certain amount of emotion around giving organs, whether that\u2019s being a donor when you\u2019re alive or after you have passed and becoming a deceased donor. But it\u2019s a really important thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EEach year we do have a large number of genuinely anonymous New Zealanders who give away a very small part of themselves, and they give it away for nothing. They give this gift that is life saving and life changing; and that is the ultimate gift. It\u2019s the ultimate taonga. In fact, you could consider it the ultimate koha.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EThere is a key perception, though, in M\u0101oridom that body parts are tapu. One of the problems with that concept is that it means M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and other cultures aren\u2019t coming forward in terms of making organ donations, not unless it\u2019s a person who is directly related to them. So we need to find ways to encourage wh\u0101nau to become donors. Because that is the challenge we have, ensuring that we have plenty of people who are willing to make this ultimate koha.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t traverse the detail of the bill\u2014that has really been done ahead of me by previous speakers\u2014but I would like to talk about a couple of cases of people who\u2019ve been donors. We all have them, whether they are close family or someone in our community\u2014maybe they\u2019re, you know, a sporting legend. We heard the Hon Michael Woodhouse talk about Jonah Lomu and receiving that kidney, that donation. But there are just cases like recently a young 22-year-old Kiwi was killed overseas in the United States, and his parents, a year after he died, went over to the woman who received his heart and they listened to the beat of his heart inside this 60-year-old woman. What an amazing moment it was for them. They knew it wasn\u2019t their son, but to have the sound when they put the stethoscope in their ears, and put it to the chest of their 60-year-old recipient to hear their son\u2019s heart beating\u2014you know that was a very emotional moment for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EAnother woman, she\u2019s given half of her liver to her husband and we know that the liver regenerates, so both their livers have grown back. [Interruption] So, yes. So that\u2019s been an ultimate gift that the wife has done for her husband.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EThis is T-Bear. T-Bear is a very cute wee bear. The reason that I would like to point out T-Bear is that there\u2019s a well-known Kiwi entertainer Pio Terei, and his son died of leukaemia about three years ago. He lost Teina\u2014his son is Teina, also known as T-Bear\u2014and he lost his battle with leukaemia. Although bone marrow transplants aren\u2019t part of this bill, what is something that we need to do, and will do as a result of this piece of legislation, is we need people who will go out and champion the cause of making donations of their organs, particularly in our M\u0101ori community. Pio Terei has set up an organisation which is called Trust Teina, and what they want to do and what they are doing is they are encouraging M\u0101ori and Pacific donors to give of their bone marrow. They\u2019ve made a range of bears, these T-Bears, and each teddy bear is uniquely made. And a koha from each T-Bear that is sold is gifted to the Trust Teina. It\u2019s to help raise awareness and donations of M\u0101ori and Pacific bone marrow. So Pio Terei is championing that. We need more champions in our community who will encourage others to donate their organs, whether they\u2019re alive or deceased.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EUltimately, this is a good bill. It\u2019s about saving people\u2019s lives. It\u2019s about extending the life of someone. And so, without further ado, I\u2019d like to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u002262ea2649690647d2bb30852eba6bc407\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262ea2649690647d2bb30852eba6bc407\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak to the Organ Donors and Related Matters Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI just wanted to comment how much I enjoyed the previous speaker\u2019s contribution. I thought that was really interesting. Koha, it\u2019s a very good way to think of it, and I like the visual aid as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI want to thank the select committee for progressing this. This was our bill. It was grounded on Chris Bishop\u2019s initial work, so I want to acknowledge Chris. This was sort of a tidy up. Like most select committee processes, it was vastly improved through the select committee process so that we were able to address the main issues, which primarily were around creating an organ donation agency, of which it was appropriately decided that the blood bank\u2014blood people, blood transfusion service\u2014was the most appropriate Crown entity to bed the organ donation agency into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThen there were some tidying-up things to make it easier to donate. We had the issue that we\u2019d said initially donors and recipients could only be located in New Zealand when, in fact, some approved overseas, international, programmes were also worthy to be a part of this. There were also issues around variable return to work. We\u2019d been a little bit too firm, too tight, in the initial drafting of the legislation, and it made sense to relax that and accommodate more flexible returns to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI have a particular interest in organ donation in as much as that when I was working in Boston my clinical appointment was to a place called Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, and right opposite Beth Israel was Brigham and Women\u2019s Hospital. Brigham Women\u2019s in 1954 was known as a Peter Bent Brigham Hospital, and that\u2019s where the first transplant actually occurred, the first successful transplant. This was in a gentleman who needed a kidney transplant. Previously you would always succumb within about a week or two because no one quite understood the immune system implications of a transplant. But there\u2019d been some sense that there was something about twins that made transplants successful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESo at Brigham Women\u2019s or Brigham Bent, as it was, there was a gentleman, his kidney was failing, and they got his twin in the operating room next door to actually do the kidney transplant. They finger-printed both\u2014I think Richard Hickman\u2014of them to make sure they were identical twins, and they thought, \u201CLook, this is our best chance. We don\u2019t understand what it is in the immune system that causes previous transplants to fail, but if we have two almost identical humans, we think that good things will happen.\u201D, and that\u2019s exactly what happened. The first successful organ transplant was of a kidney at Brigham Bent in Boston around about 1954. It was 100 metres from where my clinical appointment was, and a fine institution. So I have a particular interest in the history of this bill, and, like the people who have previously spoken, I strongly support organ donation\u2014what greater gift could you give than something that is of you to someone else?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI also just want to hasten the progress of this bill into legislation. I thank those that have brought it to this point, and I too commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022af3a3c5362594c5697b56a0d4c0036f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af3a3c5362594c5697b56a0d4c0036f3\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Thank you. The Green Party is very pleased to support the Organ Donors and Related Matters Bill and would like to commend Stuff for the series of articles that they have been doing on organ donation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI was struck as well as Jenny Marcroft by the recent article which told the story of Jamie Shennan and his parents. I think that article really conveyed that amazing gift of health and of life that organ donors provide, whether they\u2019re deceased or whether they\u2019re living. The work that Stuff has done with these articles in just showing readers what is involved\u2014getting beyond that whakam\u0101, that shame process that means that people are often reluctant to ask others for the gift of an organ, because it is the ultimate gift, but making organ donation more understandable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThis bill, in the establishment of the New Zealand Blood and Organ Service, by widening the mandate of the New Zealand Blood Service, is also doing what Stuff has been doing in ensuring that there is more advocacy and a greater public understanding of organ donation based on encouraging more people to think about putting that inscription on their driver\u2019s licence so that if they die, their organs will be available. So the work in the bill and this provision for now having a national agency that has a clear responsibility for raising the profile of organ donation and supporting clinical governance and coordinating that whole donation and transplantation process is a really good step forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI would acknowledge Chris Bishop, because, of course, this bill is based on his original bill. I concur with the comments that Dr Reti has made about the very practical changes that the bill provides in order that people who are taking time off work to recover as living donors from giving, perhaps, a kidney can be recompensed for that. Similarly, if they are part of a recognised international organ donation scheme, this bill makes the changes there that they will be able to be recompensed for lost work time, and gives the Director-General of Health some discretion around that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo it is a good and practical bill that makes significant changes that will, I hope\u2014particularly through the work of the new New Zealand Blood and Organ Service\u2014increase the profile of organ donation and increase the number of New Zealanders who are prepared to do that. So I commend the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4e32446a0114c0ab9f2de9cd03faf13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4e32446a0114c0ab9f2de9cd03faf13\u0022\u003EHon MAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak with great pleasure at the third reading of the Organ Donors and Related Matters Bill, as I have in each of the readings. This is a bill whose time has come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWe have, as a House, I think, traversed the issues very carefully at select committee level\u2014things were ironed out. This is a piece of legislation that needed to happen, but it\u2019s very encouraging to find that as it has made its passage through the House, it has attracted journalists to write stories about people who have had organ donation problems and who have had successful outings as well, because I think, as with dementia and a lot of other issues, some of these things are not properly discussed. So I think the general conversation about planning for the provision of our death and what we might do with our organs afterwards\u2014we\u2019ve all, I think, had a boost in the idea of putting information on drivers\u2019 licences and doing all of these things. When the original legislation went through, I think there was a 500 percent increase\u2014that\u2019s the one\u2014in organ donors receiving compensation for the year before. So it really does work to offer people compensation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a huge undertaking. A friend of mine\u2014whom I spoke to only yesterday, actually\u2014a couple of years ago had a heart transplant. This is a guy who was very fit, had a healthy lifestyle\u2014all of those things\u2014and his heart failed him, and he needed, with great urgency, to have a transplant. The provision for it, the way it was enacted, the counselling and so forth that went around it, and the aftermath, I think, where the person who has donated the organ is able to, perhaps, meet with the donor organ\u2019s family\u2014which I think must be incredibly challenging and confronting for the family but also, at heart, very comforting to think that you have given another person a life that emerged from a tragedy, whether it\u2019s a car accident or so forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EBut I think it is important that the change to section 10 set out in clause 6, providing for qualifying donors to get earnings compensation for up to 12 weeks while recuperating, is really important. Obviously, it depends what you donate, and a heart, obviously, is not something that someone can give and survive. But none the less, I think that when it comes to all of the other issues with kidney failure\u2014people that have been in this House and members of Parliament and their families. I know we all know of them and their personal stories. But none the less, the availability of compensation, the raising of the level of awareness\u2014I think all of these things have made this a healthy debate and one of great rarity and scarcity, that there is such an outbreak of agreement across the political divide. It\u2019s rare enough that this happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297f859f555534dd4822c5d64344d4338\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a beautiful thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0e50321674f406ebe5d2a3bfabf10b4\u0022\u003EHon MAGGIE BARRY\u003C/span\u003E: It is a beautiful thing indeed, as Andrew Bayly, my colleague, has piped up from the back seats. I, without hesitation and with complete conviction, commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e09cfb1214cc4720a9557f38bcc85322\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e09cfb1214cc4720a9557f38bcc85322\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Marja Lubeck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u00227defc376e5e344e89fd0085e9fafc203\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227defc376e5e344e89fd0085e9fafc203\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on the Organ Donors and Related Matters Bill. Contrary to some of the previous speakers, I have not spoken on this bill in the other readings and I wasn\u2019t part of the Health Committee that considered the bill, so I had to do a little bit of reading up on it. I also went to the Organ Donation New Zealand website and I found it quite sobering: the statement that the website opens up with. It says, \u201CIn New Zealand, there are currently more than 550 people waiting for an organ or tissue transplant. Sadly, some of those people will die waiting, while others will continue to lead lives restricted by long-term treatment.\u201D I think that\u2019s the submissions that the select committee heard: 16 in total and five submitters came to Wellington to be heard. As a result of considering that feedback, the select committee then recommended several amendments to this bill to make clarity and practicability within that bill\u2019s provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EOne of the stories of the submitters was particularly touching. It was a person who was very passionate about making organ donation and the whole system easier. Also, he wanted to ensure that those people who choose to be donors do not have that decision overturned when they actually die. That person told the select committee a very personal story of a person they loved and who died while they were waiting for such an organ to be donated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThere are many more stories, in particular, on this website that I mentioned: Organ Donation New Zealand lists several stories. One is of a woman called Marcella Russell, who inherited a genetic heart condition, lived a good life for 16 years, but then needed an operation, had another 17 years, and then slowly started to decline, and, at some stage, quite rapidly. She spent a lot of time in hospital waiting. She couldn\u2019t do the things that we all take for granted. She was basically just waiting for a lifeline, for someone to come up with a donation that would give her more time. She was very lucky. She was one of the lucky ones for whom an organ became available, and, after a successful operation and seven weeks in hospital, she did end up having a second lease on life, if you want to call it that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s really clear from reading those stories on the website that organ donation makes a real difference. If there were more donors, there would be more people that could benefit from lifesaving operations. So that is exactly what this bill does: it makes the whole system of organ donation easier, and it does so in two parts. People have spoken of those already, but I quickly want to just recap that Part 1 of the bill provides for increased compensation for live organ donors, and it amends the Compensation for Live Organ Donors Act 2016. Basically, in the current legislation if live organ donors go back to work earlier than the 12 weeks\u2014perhaps go back into part-time employment or reduced hours\u2014they immediately cease to have their entitlement to compensation. That is a gap in the legislation that this bill is fixing with Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EPart 2 establishes a national organ donation function, and it will be renamed the New Zealand Blood and Organ Service. Again, that is to raise awareness of the organ donation and transplantation needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ESo, in short, the purpose of the bill is to encourage and support live and deceased organ donation and transplantation rates in New Zealand. It can be said that the changes in this bill perhaps are small. They will, however, make organ donation easier, and, by enabling people to live fuller lives and to not spend the rest of their lives waiting for an organ to be donated, that makes, obviously, a huge difference. Someone has called it a koha in previous speeches, and it is the greatest gift that someone could give.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s, of course, one first step people can take. They can go to the Organ Donation New Zealand website to have a look at what can be done to perhaps become a donor. You can make a note on your driver licence. I know people have mentioned that in second readings. I, too, have that noted on my driver licence. Greater awareness is great. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9305b2ff4304c719adfd287c4bed60c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9305b2ff4304c719adfd287c4bed60c\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a privilege to rise on behalf of the National Party in support of the Organ Donors and Related Matters Bill. Can I start by acknowledging my colleagues from across the House on the Health Committee. It\u2019s actually great to be part of a committee that makes a real difference. I think, out of all the committees, when you look at them, the Health Committee is the one that I think makes a real difference. You look at some of the others like the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014I\u2019m not really sure what goes on there. In the Primary Production Committee it just seems like they sit around and have a chat! But, of course, the Health Committee is one that really makes a difference in individual New Zealanders\u2019 lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThis bill, although a small bill and very technical\u2014an omnibus bill, if I get that correct at this hour of the night. It had a small number of submitters, but those small numbers of submitters made a real difference to the bill, and I think it shaped up very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EAlthough I do give one warning with the bill: it really shows the limitations of Parliament and of Government. We can pass legislation and provide a framework for the national organ donation agency and support more organ donations, but the problem is, in New Zealand\u2014as many will know\u2014we need a real cultural shift. People can put that they want to be a donor on their drivers\u2019 licences, but we know the very real issue. When that person passes away\u2014they might be in the hospital\u2014the family turns up, challenges that, and puts the health professional right in the firing line. And, of course, they don\u2019t want to take sides as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESo, yes, this is a start, but it\u2019s very much the start of a discussion\u2014not the end of it\u2014of how in New Zealand we can have a real step change, a real cultural shift, to allow more organ donations that will go on to save lives but very much enrich other Kiwis\u2019 lives, as we\u2019ve heard several times across the House in other people\u2019s speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EOrgan donation makes a huge difference in people\u2019s lives. It saves lives. But, ultimately, now, this bill is up to the people of New Zealand to make a real cultural shift so that we increase the number of organ donations in this country. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4d2f0742e15478b980b10dfc5439a71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4d2f0742e15478b980b10dfc5439a71\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a real pleasure to rise and speak on the third and final reading of this bill. As my colleague Matt Doocey said, there was really good cross-party support on this bill because of the importance that organ donation means to people\u2019s lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EI think\u2014just again reflecting on what my colleague Marja Lubeck was saying about that whole transformation it can make in somebody\u2019s life\u2014for many, having an organ donated is lifesaving. It makes that difference between life and death. For others, it just transforms their life because they\u2019re not having to rely on dialysis or other things that, basically, limit their quality of life. So it\u2019s incredibly, incredibly important that we get this right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EBasically, at the moment there\u2019s a real waiting list for organ donation and, on average, about 550 people waiting at any one time for an organ. So it\u2019s incredibly important that we raise the profile of organ donation and make sure that for people that are happy to donate\u2014either, basically, by putting something on their driver\u2019s licence, or for people that they can get a match with as a live donor\u2014that process is facilitated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESo there is a national strategy for increasing deceased organ donation and transplantation, and Part 2 of this bill looks at how we can create that oversight and the governance for this, by creating an entity within the New Zealand Blood Service, renaming that the New Zealand Blood and Organ Service, and giving them the governance role for looking at the oversight of organ donation and also supporting organ transplantation in our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EAt the Health Committee, there was quite a bit of discussion because many people thought that if they put something on their driver\u2019s licence that said \u201Cdonor\u201D, that was it\u2014that, basically, you automatically became an organ donor. But the actual practicalities of the situation are that, in that situation, usually the discussion has been happening at the ICU level, and it\u2019s usually between grieving family members having to make a really tough call. But it\u2019s also about the health professionals that are guiding the family through those decisions. And so there was quite a bit of discussion, again at select committee and in some of the submissions, about the need for training and support of those health professionals to lead those conversations, often at an incredibly difficult time in families\u2019 lives, and to actually explain the benefits of donation but also making sure those conversations happen at the right point for that family in their decision making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s having, basically, an entity that can oversee that process and make sure that we\u2019re looking at implementing the strategy\u2014what the strategy looks at is raising the profile of organ donation so that people not only put something on their driver\u2019s licence but they also have that conversation with the family so their family knows somebody\u2019s intent and are not having to think about that at an incredibly stressful time\u2014but also looking at effective clinical governance, looking at training, and having that oversight so that we do actually know what we\u2019re aiming for, and making sure our health professionals in that situation have the adequate resourcing and training. So it\u2019s really important, in terms of Part 2 of that bill, just to put in place that critical infrastructure to make sure that can happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EPart 1 of the bill, though, looks at live donors and compensation. Up until now, we did have compensation for live donors, and it could go up to 12 weeks, but it was an all-or-nothing thing where somebody, basically, had donor surgery and then, if they wanted to go back to work, their compensation ceased. For many people, you might want to take a more gradual approach in terms of getting back to work. One of our submitters raised a scenario where a close relative had donated a kidney to him and then they ended up with an unexpected infection, and so that really knocked them back for quite a few weeks. There\u2019s a whole range of scenarios where somebody may want to go back to work part-time or they may go back to work and then they realise, \u201COK, I need some more time.\u201D So what this bill does is allows that flexibility, where you can go back part-time or you can actually go back and then, if you need to, you can get further compensation up to that 12-week period. So it just makes it that little bit easier for people to consider that donation process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EJust one of the other things, before I close, is just looking at some of the scenarios where we\u2019ve got overseas paired exchanges in terms of organ donation and thinking about how we make sure that the legislation keeps up with that. Up until now, you could only get that compensation if the surgery happened in New Zealand for both the donor and the recipient and also if that person receiving the transplant was eligible for publicly funded health services. What this does is it changes it so that we can actually accommodate the fact that you might actually be part of a paired organ donation programme that\u2019s been approved. So what the bill does is it allows for that and also creates a schedule that then lists approved paired organ donation exchange programmes. So the Australia and New Zealand Paired Kidney Exchange Program has been added to Schedule 5 so that that then comes in, in terms of when you\u2019re considering eligibility, in the criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EBasically, this is an important bill, and I think it\u2019s got the potential to put that framework in place that will increase the number of people that are making those donations, and then the follow-on effect is having that impact on people\u2019s lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EI just want to close by reading you a quote from Lisa, who, basically, on the Organ Donation New Zealand website, had told her story. She just said, after her transplant: \u201CI\u2019ve never felt more alive than I do today. I\u2019ve been liberated from the battle of breathlessness and absorb every moment I have with my daughter with immense pleasure. I work full time in a vibrant, energetic environment, and, miraculously, I can breathe big, deep, oxygen filled, life-giving breaths. Thank you would never be enough.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022da68329f95e44bf4a1bca1e2443b9172\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da68329f95e44bf4a1bca1e2443b9172\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. The Organ Donors and Related Matters Bill is a bill that I\u2019m very proud of, actually, because I\u2019ve had a little bit to do with the laws and the rules around organ donation. This bill actually seeks to improve on the status quo which was improved in the last Parliament, and it was my member\u2019s bill that provided for people to get greater amounts of compensation when they are an organ donor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe law used to be that you got the sickness benefit\u2014we\u2019ve changed the name, but it\u2019s the equivalent of the sickness benefit. You used to have rock up to Work and Income New Zealand, and say, you know, \u201CI want to donate a kidney to my sister\u201D or whatever, and after a laborious process of talking to a Work and Income New Zealand case manager, most of the time the case manager didn\u2019t even know that the entitlement existed, so they had to file through the luminous case files and the material that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I\u2019m sure you\u2019re very familiar with from your past roles. And at some point, various people were declined compensation and they were declined their benefits. And, of course, when you do donate an organ\u2014typically, in New Zealand, a kidney\u2014it\u2019s anywhere between six, if you\u2019re lucky, you know, more likely 12 weeks off work, so for a lot of people having to sacrifice that income and go down to the sickness benefit was an enormous sacrifice. And, of course, it puts people off donating. Most people do it out of altruism, they do it out of the goodness of their hearts, typically for a family member\u2014although, not always. There are actually people, every year in New Zealand, who donate organs, kidneys for people they\u2019ve never met, because they\u2019re just good-hearted people. I think the law was wrong, and the law didn\u2019t treat them like the heroes that they actually are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo now the law says: if you are an organ donor, you are entitled to earn, from the Government, exactly what you were earning before. So if you\u2019re on a good salary\u2014$100,000, say, for example\u2014and you donate a kidney to your brother to save his life or prolong his life, you get what you\u2019re earning for that time that you\u2019re off work. I think that\u2019s an improvement. What this bill does is build on that and it makes some minor and technical amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWhen we were crafting what became the Compensation for Live Organ Donors Act at the Health Committee\u2014it spent quite a long time at the Health Committee; I wasn\u2019t a member of the committee but I subbed in\u2014it was quite tricky crafting the provisions, because you\u2019ve got ACC and you\u2019ve got the various income support mechanisms in New Zealand, and it\u2019s a very tricky area to get the definitions of \u201Chours\u201D and \u201Cweekly earnings\u201D and \u201Cmonthly earnings\u201D and all of that stuff right. It started off as a member\u2019s bill. We were very fortunate to have officials\u2019 support\u2014and I do want to pay tribute to the health officials; they do a great job. But what this bill does is make some technical amendments to the way in which \u201Cusual hours\u201D is defined. I think that\u2019s going to be a positive thing. It\u2019s largely a bit of a tidy up and technical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe other major part of the bill is, of course, around the Blood and Organ Service, which has been renamed. For quite a long time now, we\u2019ve been going back and forth about who should be the appropriate body to oversee organ donation in New Zealand, and that will now be the New Zealand Blood Service to oversee and provide clinical governance of the organ donation and transplantation service. It\u2019s a good move. Actually, it was the previous Government\u2019s plan to do that pretty much straight away, so it\u2019s a little bit frustrating, I have to say, that we\u2019re now sort of into the fag end of November, and we\u2019re sort of still passing the legislation to do it, but, you know, \u201Cgood things come to those who wait\u201D is the saying, and that\u2019s a positive thing. It should have happened earlier, but it\u2019s a positive thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe next step is the funding. I stay in touch with this space, and the people who work in this area say to me that it\u2019s a positive move. They say that it should have happened sooner and all the rest of it, but they also say that the next step\u2019s the money. So my plea to Minister Henare over there, who\u2019s an Associate Minister of Health, is: you\u2019ve got to come up with the dough in the next Budget, my friend, because the blood service is going to require an infusion\u2014not a blood infusion\u2014of cash to get on with the job. But it was a positive move\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217746e3f93184781bb7b03e43141f669\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Easy to do when you\u2019re not doing tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022603780e327a34041ac9a0fa55d3703af\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Well, we\u2019re not talking about a huge sum of money; we\u2019re only talking about a few million, Minister Little. I\u2019m sure\u2014with the largesse that\u2019s been showered upon the Government of New Zealand by the hard-working taxpayers of New Zealand over the last two years\u2014you can find it within your measly hearts for a few million to make the blood service work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EUltimately, of course, the more organ donations there are in New Zealand, the better. People who spend their lives on dialysis\u2014firstly, their quality of life is low, and, secondly, it\u2019s vastly expensive for our district health boards, because it\u2019s an incredibly expensive ongoing procedure. So, of course, the more organ donations we can get, the better. This bill is a step in the right direction, so I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00229c7cb176171441088eb398a081a9b02b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c7cb176171441088eb398a081a9b02b\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Associate Minister of Health (M\u0101ori Health)):\u003C/span\u003E Unfortunately, I wasn\u2019t here to take the first call as the lead Minister on this particular bill, but I\u2019m thankful to have the opportunity to speak as the final speaker on this bill, and I want to commend all members across the House for their contributions. I do want to acknowledge Mr Chris Bishop, and he is right. The work that he did in the last Government to progress and to bring the issue of organ donation once again back on to the radar of the general public I think is commendable. As has been mentioned by many members, those involved in the Health Committee process, and those who have just recently studied up on the bill have found that, actually, collectively we made a far better bill, something that will be progressive and allow a platform to look into the growth and the expansion of organ donation, and, dare I say it, donations of other kinds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s easy to focus on the organ donation part. From my discussion with the New Zealand Blood Service, there is also a huge lack of donors in the blood space, in the plasma space, and, as was mentioned earlier by my New Zealand First colleague, the bone marrow donation space. I\u2019m proud to say that I\u2019m a donor of all three. I\u2019m on the bone marrow register myself. I donate blood. I donate plasma. I think this will allow for an opportunity, as was mentioned by other members of the House, for what organ donation looks like from a M\u0101ori perspective. But in order for that to happen, the framework had to be set up, and this bill does that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIn a sort of hand-in-glove moment, it allows the New Zealand Blood Service and the Organ Donation Service to come together. I want to just pick up, briefly, on a point made by my colleague Dr Liz Craig about clinical governance and how important that is for the organ donation side. One can imagine the clinical aspect of organ donation is significant, and it does provide some challenges for an organisation so small. But in making the two organisations one, it\u2019s important that we acknowledge the challenge of clinical governance, and also, just as important, that we get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe back-office function, if you like, is one that will allow for better efficiencies and economies of scale as we look into the administration of this into the future. I want to pick up on the point made by Mr Bishop that, from my discussions with the New Zealand Blood Board, there are some options and opportunities for us into the future to look at the funding model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ve brought together these two organisations and the role that the district health board has played in the past in supporting the organ donation aspects, it\u2019s important too that we have a look at what the funding model might look like into the future\u2014in particular, if we hope to grow on the aspirations that have been offered by my colleagues across the House with respect to organ donation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also the Minister responsible for diabetes in this country. Much has been made about the kidney transplant and the exchange programme with the Australians, our counterparts. It\u2019s important, then, if we\u2019re going to consider all parts of somebody who suffers from diabetes, how we look into the way we front-load the system, and that\u2019s primarily about education and making good lifestyle decisions to make sure you lead a healthy life, and, then, all the way to the other end, where we actually opt for an organ donation. That entire spectrum must be considered as one, and this is actually just one part of that entire spectrum, in particular with those who suffer from diabetes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EJust in my concluding remarks, I do want to offer a number of thanks\u2014one, to the officials who have continued to hold this bill as it\u2019s progressed through the House. The committee has already been mentioned for their great work in coming together and working collaboratively on such a good bill. I\u2019ve already mentioned Mr Bishop. And, just finally, I want to thank all of the donors\u2014those who have donated in the past, those who are considering donation, and those in the future who we hope will donate, because, as has already been mentioned, it is one of those gifts of life, and I think we can\u2019t thank them enough, for those who have and for those who may consider it into the future, because it is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EDr Reti talked about the history of kidney transplantation and identical twins. As a twin myself, I consider myself lucky that, if ever the case was needed, I\u2019ve got a twin brother that might, in the goodness of his heart, consider to donate to me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4edd0ede3734d1f94e1e0cc83659d88\u0022\u003EChris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: Might be the other way round.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9c7c1c959584f8e931e6dbb71d94fb6\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! It could be the other way around; that\u2019s for sure. To see just where it\u2019s come from to where it\u2019s headed, I think, really does offer us some good opportunities for this space, and I think that this country can certainly put its hand up and make sure that organ donation becomes one of those key conversations in our families and in our communities to make sure that people, when they need it, are able to receive it. This is a good bill. I\u2019m thankful to supporters across the House, and I look forward to the work to be done by this organisation as it moves into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221613a49dfe5240d5b2e507d7a4365c0f\u0022\u003ECriminal Cases Review Commission Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f0f49b103c444873b48b4ff4961cc820\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9e33452dfbf4c08a3b163074d54eb45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9e33452dfbf4c08a3b163074d54eb45\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a2a719be6254b2ba79873c4d73081cc\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Andrew Little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f126e7771004ed2a69ddbacacef93a2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Andrew Little, sorry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e523b7887cc045bb81c73b388dc4cfd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e523b7887cc045bb81c73b388dc4cfd7\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m such a forgettable person! I move, That the Criminal Cases Review Commission Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ECan I begin by thanking members of the House through the committee stage\u2014and, indeed, members of the Justice Committee\u2014for getting the bill to the point it is at the moment, and there were changes that the bill achieved through those stages. I think we have a very good bill, and I\u2019m going to talk a little bit about the motivation for it, the objectives of it, and what I think it will do in relation to our criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge members opposite, particularly Chris Penk and the Hon Tim Macindoe, who, I know, made very worthy contributions, as they do on most things, actually, but they did in the committee stage of this bill, and I took the time to assiduously read their contributions, because I normally hang on their every word!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0abf749291941d5a4ad235becbfb8d9\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249c017116b7d412e9ac8f598f80bc84e\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know why Mr Macindoe finds that very funny; I\u2019d find it flattering, normally. I think the way that the National Party has approached it\u2014I know they don\u0027t support the bill generally, but their attitude has been, notwithstanding their in-principle objections to an organisation like this, nevertheless, they wanted the bill to be as perfect as it possibly could be. They made some interesting contributions about how the rights of victims fit into the work of a Criminal Cases Review Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIf I go back to the beginning, right now, for a person who has been convicted of a crime who is determined and who strongly feels, and may well be, innocent and they\u2019ve exhausted all their appeal rights, right now we have the process called the royal prerogative of mercy. At the moment, the mechanics of that are that a person will apply, usually, to the Governor-General\u2014possibly they\u0027ll go directly to the Minister of Justice. In any event, the application will be referred to the Ministry of Justice and its legal section to find somebody who\u0027s got a bit of time up their sleeves to examine it\u2014examine the application, triage it\u2014and, if they think it has merit, maybe it\u0027ll be briefed out to a lawyer, who has to have time, and they will have to find time to do that. Or the legal department of the Ministry of Justice may well decide, in their triaging sort of approach, that it doesn\u0027t warrant any further attention. Either way, it is very close to the executive for what ought to be, in relation to an appeal against a conviction or a re-examination of a conviction, independent of the executive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOther countries in the world have grappled with this\u2014other Commonwealth countries, notably England and Scotland. They both have Criminal Cases Review Commissions, and they were motivated by the fact that they had cases that had gone right through their court processes, their appeal processes, and yet convictions were upheld which were then found to be demonstrably unjust, unjustified, and actually just wrong. Innocent people were locked up, in some cases for extensive periods of time, and the criminal justice system simply wasn\u0027t nimble enough, agile enough, or flexible enough to discover the conviction of the innocent early enough, and so those people ended up spending a lot of time inside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, we\u0027ve had cases in this country, even quite recently, where exactly the same thing has happened. You can think of some of the leading cases where somebody has been convicted, has appealed, has had their conviction quashed and a retrial ordered, has been convicted again and then subsequently found to be totally innocent. Teina Pora is probably the most recent one of those, but you could think about Arthur Allan Thomas. He had two trials and two appeals to the Court of Appeal before, not through a royal prerogative of mercy process\u2014it was a very special process engineered by the Prime Minister of the day, Robert Muldoon\u2014that resulted in him being considered to be innocent and a pardon issued. A very rare thing for a pardon to be issued.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Criminal Cases Review Commission Bill provides a genuinely independent approach to dealing with those cases of miscarriage of justice and is dedicated\u2014and I suspect it will be\u2014because they will have to be a determined body of people who will conduct the investigations, examine the background to the case and the conviction, and decide whether or not there are grounds, therefore, to refer it to the Court of Appeal for a review of the conviction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe reality is that, as good as our justice system is, no justice system is perfect; it gets things wrong, but sometimes it gets things spectacularly wrong. We just need to have that other safety valve that allows for those who are innocent but who find themselves convicted, for whatever reason\u2014overzealous policing or investigative or detective work that leads people to draw conclusions and draw inferences that they\u0027re not entitled to do; perhaps not very well represented at the trial stage of their court case. They end up convicted and they get drawn into the system. The reality about the justice system, good as it is in very, very many respects\u2014very good as it is, in fact\u2014is it does have the capacity to be somewhat self-perpetuating once it makes a set of findings and draws a conclusion. It is sometimes very hard to shift the system off that, and so this is a way of making sure that those who, having exhausted their appeal rights, are innocent, strongly believe themselves to be innocent, and for which there are good grounds can go to find a place where their case\u2014their circumstances\u2014can be examined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe benefit of this approach, too, is that it\u0027s not bound up in the legal niceties that you would expect in an appeal process. It is an opportunity to kind of take a step back, go back to square one perhaps, look at the evidence\u2014perhaps even investigate other possibilities that weren\u0027t properly examined at the time the case was being managed through the courts\u2014and, potentially, discover that somebody has been wrongfully convicted and there\u0027s been a miscarriage of justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI know that members opposite were concerned about the impact of these sorts of processes on victims of crime, and we know that any appeal process for the victims of a crime, particularly where there has been a conviction, can be an even more confusing and sometimes traumatising time for victims, because, just as they are in the process of putting what has been a traumatic event behind them, it all gets dug up again. I get correspondence from people who\u2019ve had that experience. I know how it feels. I\u2019ve heard from people about that. The bill as it currently stands, as we go through this third reading, does already require\u2014or, at least, places the Criminal Cases Review Commission under the Victims\u2019 Rights Act. So there is a notification obligation on the Criminal Cases Review Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut I just make this point, though, too: from the position of the person who is innocent, the person who has been wrongfully convicted, it is very important for the sake of the victim to let them know what is happening on a matter that could affect them, but there can be no greater injustice\u2014apart, obviously, from the wrongful conviction\u2014than for a victim to discover that the person who was accused of harming them and convicted of harming them hasn\u0027t actually done it and that the person who has harmed them is actually running around in the community somewhere scot-free. That is an injustice too, and it\u0027s not just an injustice to the person wrongfully convicted; it\u0027s an injustice to the victim as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo this bill, far from creating problems for victims, is actually about putting at peace victims who have been wrongfully led to believe that the person who perpetrated harm against them has been brought to justice and the matter is all closed. The reality about injustice is this, as we know\u2014a sense of injustice\u2014someone who has genuinely been done an injustice never lets it go. It sits in the craw, it gnaws away at you, it bedevils you, it burdens you, and that is why the extra safety valve that the Criminal Cases Review Commission provides to our criminal justice system will be a very important one, will be a very good one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhen I look at the experience of Criminal Cases Review Commissions in other countries\u2014Norway is the only other country that has one\u2014there is a bit of going out to prisons and prisoners, because we know there are people in prison who do not know how to access services that might lead to a wrongful conviction being discovered and, therefore, being put right. So they go out and do that. But the estimates are that there will be a handful of cases each year, as there are a handful of applications for the royal prerogative of mercy at the moment, and there will be the opportunity now to give a thoroughgoing examination to any application like that so those issues of injustice can, hopefully, finally be put to bed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI know that one issue that also exercised the members opposite was the make-up of the commission and the fact that there will be people with a non-legal background on the commission. What has been shown in other jurisdictions, actually, is that that is helpful\u2014people with a social work background. IRD investigators, for example, in the UK make up people in the commission because they bring a different perspective, a not entirely legal perspective to it, which is also important when considering issues where the legal system actually has slipped up. You need a bit of external common sense brought to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo, on that basis, I\u2019m very pleased to see the bill in this stage, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00224403ecee223244cfbf746d635bdc4f48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224403ecee223244cfbf746d635bdc4f48\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to speak on the Criminal Cases Review Commission Bill at this, the third and final reading. I acknowledge that the speech by the Minister has canvassed a number of the issues that we have previously canvassed on this side of the House, and that\u2019s helpful. Being the final reading of this bill, I will nonetheless reiterate those from our perspective. But I wanted to structure my remarks in the following way: first, to understand the problem that this bill is designed to solve; second, to consider what tools are already available, notwithstanding that they are imperfect tools, admittedly; third, to assess the strengths and weaknesses of the existing structures to consider whether the reform of those might be the more useful approach; then, obviously, to consider the line that the Government is going down in terms of what it is that they are establishing here\u2014the Criminal Cases Review Commission itself\u2014and then, of course, summarising our position, including emphasising at the end that, ultimately, we are unable to support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ENotwithstanding that, as the Minister has been good enough to acknowledge, we\u2019ve sought to take a constructive approach throughout, including at select committee\u2014on that split committee that is the Justice Committee. We could see no good reason to deny the changes that were constructive, in the name of making it a better piece of legislation to result from the parliamentary process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe first of those points, then: defining the problem. We can turn to the purpose clause of the bill and see that it seeks to establish an independent body to investigate and review criminal convictions and sentences and to decide whether to refer them under the Act to an appeal court. The aim of the exercise more broadly, however, is of course to deal with the situation of miscarriages of justice. That\u2019s a situation that is very serious, for the reasons that have already been outlined, and I would like to think that there isn\u2019t a member in the House, or indeed perhaps a person in New Zealand, who would be comfortable with the notion that there are miscarriages of justice and would be happy to accept that merely as a statistical inevitability and not examine the proposition further. But, nevertheless, it is inevitable that such things do occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EHowever, thinking about the tools that are currently available for remedying such a problem, we note, of course, that there is an appeals court framework and structure already within the system. The purpose of this Criminal Cases Review Commission\u2014hereafter, I\u2019ll just call it the commission, if I may\u2014is, essentially, to consider whether an appeal is worthy then to be heard by the courts. So it\u2019s an extra step in the process which is not in itself able to be decisive, provide any further finality of justice. Of course, there is also a royal prerogative of mercy, which the Minister of Justice has outlined and, being a royal prerogative, traditionally is exercised by the Governor-General, standing in the stead of the monarch in this country in this day and age.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThinking about the strengths and weaknesses of that existing system, well, we have an ability for a person who has been or claims to have been wrongly convicted to go back into the system and have another go, not merely a second bite or third bite of the cherry but actually to have some particular reason that they\u2019re able to have their case heard again. I do acknowledge the points that have been made by submitters to the Justice Committee as well as in the House prior to now\u2014access to justice issues, in relation to that. There are members of our society who are less able to access those avenues of justice and the issues might be financial, and they might also be around awareness of such arcane concepts as being aware that there is such a thing as the royal prerogative of mercy. Also, there might be an injustice whereby some cases naturally appeal more than others, and I use the word \u201Cappeal\u201D in a pretty general sense. Some cases naturally seem to lend themselves to the attention and the assistance of white knights, so-called, and be a cause c\u00E9l\u00E8bre, and others are less interesting to the public and go unaided. So that\u2019s a matter of injustice in itself. So I acknowledge those points but, in doing so, would also point out that there are opportunities that we can and should take as a Parliament to consider ways to improve the access to justice, the knowledge and ability to find those avenues of appeal, and so forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just note briefly that a secondary function of the Criminal Cases Review Commission is to conduct thematic inquiries, essentially, and that\u2019s something which I\u2019ve pointed out before in this House is, essentially, replicating\u2014different branches of Government already have the ability to look at patterns that are developing in our criminal justice system, where it might be that a number of different miscarriages of justice take place in a way that reflects perhaps a systemic bias against a group of New Zealanders, or perhaps certain methods or techniques have been proven over the course of time and with a multitude of cases particularly convincingly, it might be, that are leading to unsafe convictions, as we\u2019d say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMoving, then, to the proposal that\u2019s before us now\u2014and I note in passing that the legislation seems set to succeed because parties opposite have committed to support it. But considering this new beast that is the commission, it is neither fish nor fowl, in the sense that it doesn\u2019t sit firmly within the court system but neither is it part of executive Government. It\u2019s not an appeal court in itself, so it can\u2019t actually provide the remedy that the person\u2019s after but can just really reopen a can of worms that might have good reason to be reopened but at the same time might also just simply be another roll of the dice for someone who has been convicted and rightly so, as well as, of course, providing a much-wanted avenue for those who have been unfairly convicted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe Justice Committee made a number of constructive changes which I would class along with various minor or technical achievements, some which I think are helpful in, effectively, making the commission more like a court, in the sense that the relationship with the Evidence Act is more clearly established, the right of various kinds of privilege is more clearly set out, and so forth. The membership of the commission is something that we\u2019ve emphasised we\u2019ve had some difficulty with, not because we think it\u2019s unhelpful to have people who are not legally qualified but we just don\u2019t think that the balance is right to have as little as a third of the commission to be legally qualified and no requirement that those need to have any criminal type of experience in the courts, nor, even, that they have practiced in New Zealand. So that\u2019s a serious shortcoming in our submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs the Minister again has acknowledged in relation to the status of victims, we think it would be helpful to have an explicit acknowledgment that when the commission is considering whether to review and refer a case, the interests of the victim involved must be considered. That was a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) change that we recommended but which was not successful in the committee stage, along with the related SOPs that we put forward. One was to do with ensuring that a victim is notified at every step of the process if it\u2019s in prospect that their case will be reopened, and also a separate proposal that legal aid funding be provided for victims whose cases are looked into again, noting that they would have financial costs that would be imposed upon them as a result of that, through no fault of their own, as well as emotional costs and perhaps physical costs and so forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe point made by Minister Little that no one is well served by a miscarriage of justice is well made. Of course, the victim as well as the wrongfully convicted person, and I suppose we could say more generally society at large, the rule of law, is offended by such things. But, for the reasons that we\u2019ve described, and I say this in concluding my remarks, we don\u2019t believe that this is the right way to go about reducing the number of miscarriages of justice, of course, in the first place or even dealing with them in necessarily the most efficient manner, which we believe could be done much better by reforming the existing structures\u2014for example, better financial support and access to justice for those who genuinely need it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn summary, for all the reasons I\u2019ve stated, we are unable to support the bill in its form at the third reading. We note that it will pass nonetheless, surely, and so it will be that as a constructive, loyal Her Majesty\u2019s Opposition, we will continue to watch it carefully in its operation going forward, and we hope that it\u2019s more successful than we fear it will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2eb8c0cac384466b3110f1380a9ee6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2eb8c0cac384466b3110f1380a9ee6c\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the Criminal Cases Review Commission Bill. It\u2019s important, at the third reading stage, that we acknowledge our Government partners New Zealand First in a really important piece of legislation that brings a greater sense of justice and fairness to our current justice system. It\u2019s not that long ago when we\u2019ve heard many contributions through the media and through other discussions around really high-profile cases such as those of Teina Pora and the miscarriage of justice carried out through those areas that received so much discussion publicly, and it\u2019s important to note that this will be an improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe key part that this bill enables is to replace the royal prerogative of mercy by establishing the CCR, the Criminal Cases Review Commission. This is able to be done when there is a suspected miscarriage of justice, and that\u2019s exactly what the problem has been in the past: it\u2019s very unclear, sometimes, when a miscarriage of justice has happened. It\u2019s important to note, too, that I go back to the departmental report that was done by the Justice Committee, which I sit on, and specifically outlines in that report\u2014it is stated that this commission is designed to be more accessible and transparent than the current system and, they note, particularly for M\u0101ori and Pacific people. There are often issues in terms of access to justice and making sure that everybody is treated equally before the law, that in some instances in the past there have not been good avenues and access to justice that this legislation seeks to rectify\u2014so by having a clear pathway and by having a commission that is able to be more transparent for the fact that it is in fact an independent body that is able to review the convictions and sentences where there is that suspected miscarriage of justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt has the ability to do several things in terms of what further steps can be taken. If the commission considers that no further action needs to be taken, that is within their power, but it can also refer cases back to the appeal courts. But it does not determine guilt or innocence. The commission itself will replace the referral power currently exercised by the Governor-General, and that\u2019s under section 406 of the Crimes Act\u2014so by having the ability to have that greater transparency, and in matters looking at those, to come to the attention during exercise of those functions that are carried out regularly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s already been a mention by the Minister of Justice tonight of overseas jurisdictions, and with those overseas jurisdictions that have a similar function, a similar commission, the bill requires that a third of the members have legal qualifications and two-thirds of the members have relevant knowledge. That\u2019s important, because it\u2019s important to have that knowledge of the criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAt least one member of the commission also must have knowledge or understanding of Te Ao M\u0101ori, M\u0101ori tikanga, and concepts of Te Ao M\u0101ori. I think that goes back to my point already made at the beginning, that it\u2019s incredibly important that we look at access to justice. This has been a particular issue for iwi M\u0101ori in the past, for making sure that there is a clear pathway for review if there has ever been a thought that there has been a miscarriage of justice, and making sure that there are no obstacles to be able to see that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of what the role of the CCR is: to be a final opportunity to deal with credible claims of miscarriage of justice, and to have a way of putting that through in a way that the public is clear of what is happening and that there is transparency not only for those who are accused and before the courts, not only those who are victims of crime, but also for the public, also for New Zealanders to understand what is happening. If there is consideration that we have an independent commission that has a greater level of transparency, I think that gives New Zealanders a greater sense of confidence within our justice system that it is operating fair, that it is operating in a way that is not showing favour to any particular group or any particular area, and that there is a sense of being able to provide a clear review when there is concern that someone hasn\u2019t received fair access to justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI think this is an excellent bill. I\u2019m grateful for the Minister for doing the work on this; I\u2019m grateful for our partners in Government, New Zealand First, as being a part of our coalition agreement; and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00221dd74f05abb7408a9b57c6f615a3e2fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dd74f05abb7408a9b57c6f615a3e2fe\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m no longer a member of the Justice Committee, but I\u2019ve taken quite an interest in this piece of legislation. I think it\u2019d be fair to say that no one in Parliament wants miscarriages of justice to occur. They are a blight on our legal system, and, of course, it\u2019s important that we seek to minimise them and it\u2019s important that when they do occur, they are dealt with properly and addressed as quickly and as expeditiously as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis bill is a strange beast in some ways, because it doesn\u2019t replace the royal prerogative. Basically, what it does is place a framework around it\u2014bolsters it, I suppose, buttresses some of the things that are already there. I suppose the question for the Parliament is: has the case been made that the status quo is insufficient to deal with miscarriages of justice, and we on the National Party side of the House do not believe that that case has been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ETake three examples that have attracted public comment in the last decade or so. Take the Bain case: controversial case, tried and convicted in 1994, sent to prison. There was lots of doubt about\u2014well, there was lots of comment about the verdict and about the way in which the police investigated that case. Various books written, particularly by Joe Karam\u2014that then led eventually to Mr Bain appealing to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which ordered a retrial. That\u2019s the system working as it should. The retrial was ordered\u20142009, from memory\u2014he was retried, and, of course, found not guilty and walked free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, that didn\u2019t involve a criminal cases review commission. It didn\u2019t require one. He appealed. The judicial committee ordered a retrial on the grounds of some of the inadequacy of the evidence. There was a real risk to the safety of the verdict. A retrial was ordered, and he was not convicted at the second trial\u2014no need for a criminal cases review commission. To those who say, \u201CWell, it should\u2019ve happened sooner.\u201D, I would say Mr Bain could and should have appealed sooner. He was imprisoned from 1995, from memory, onwards, and the appeal was only heard in 2009. At any stage, he could\u2019ve appealed. Of course, there was an appeal in 2000 to the Court of Appeal and it was dismissed, but that right of appeal to the Privy Council existed, notwithstanding the passing of the Supreme Court Act in 2004\u2014that preserved his ability to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ETake the Pora case, which has been dealt with in recent years, including in this Parliament. Everyone has a huge amount of sympathy for Mr Pora, but, again, that did not require a criminal cases review commission to be dealt with. Again, that was dealt with through the normal legal appeals. Take a case that some people have commented on in recent years: the Lundy case\u2014convicted in the Palmerston North High Court in the mid-1990s of the shocking murder of his wife and wee daughter, and various writings, particularly by journalist Mr White, in the North \u0026amp; South magazine. There was lots of comment in public debate that the safety of the verdict was in question, particularly about the time of death related to the McDonald\u2019s that the Lundy family had eaten, and particularly related to the safety of the admissibility of the DNA that was later found at the retrial to be on Mr Lundy\u2019s\u2014I think it was his T-shirt that was found in the car. Now, that went all the way to the judicial committee as well, eventually, on appeal. That was sent back down to the High Court for a retrial. Mr Lundy was retried and he was found guilty. So it\u2019s not a case of someone innocent being in jail at the moment, but that was dealt with through the normal process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI use these cases to illustrate the point that I don\u2019t see what is deficient about the status quo that would justify the establishment of a criminal cases review committee, and my colleague Chris Penk has gone through some of the defects that we see in the legislation. In my brief contribution, I just want to make the point that we have a very robust and effective system, I believe, in New Zealand of checks and balances in our judicial system right now, and I do not believe the Government has made the case that we need a criminal cases review commission. I accept that other countries have done that. I accept that the United Kingdom has established one\u2014they did that in 1997\u2014but I do not believe that just because the United Kingdom does something, we should follow suit. The United Kingdom is leaving the European Union. I suspect if New Zealand was part of the EU, we would not be doing the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212be096739da463682810415b733a777\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ad51540f60c449994f941ff0ea315bd\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, I don\u2019t want to get into a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce0f48f6ab0f415aa6280cb70adb07bc\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, and we won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022243970b8942242d8bc12075164083068\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s outed himself as a Brexiteer. I don\u2019t want to get into that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ace7e4bfda445ba93c3c0c55bed5101\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a Rees-Mogg\u2014a little Rees-Mogg!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022158609137c4949a5b8120907a91f4f94\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m struggling to know how to compare Simeon Brown to Jacob Rees-Mogg. I really am struggling. That would be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca9cc210baa748119fe893b1f5d1b3eb\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Equally erudite and articulate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f378c40a30d49178ccbf17cc58411b6\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s certainly erudite. But may I say, Madam Assistant Speaker, you have been a more fair-minded and impartial observer than Speaker Bercow in the United Kingdom\u2014but anyway, I digress. I just make the point: the Government has not made the case for what will be quite a complicated model with a series of procedural defects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EJust in closing, I\u2019ll just make the point around the lack of requirement for commissioners to have any legal qualification. Only a third will be required to have a legal qualification. A third aren\u2019t required to have any experience of the criminal legal system, and these people are being asked to consider, essentially, a legal question of whether or not the evidence supports a rehearing. We believe that that is a real defect in the legislation, and therefore we do not support it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022 data-id=\u00226dfa6adb255c449e801cd2302736bd1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dfa6adb255c449e801cd2302736bd1d\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would just like to address a couple of the points that Mr Bishop made, and Mr Penk made as well. In fact, Mr Bishop made his side of the argument quoting the cases of the likes of David Bain and Teina Pora and Mark Lundy. He used that as evidence for voting against this bill, because this was the normal process. I struggle to believe that Mr Bishop doesn\u2019t understand that all of those cases weren\u2019t the normal process, especially Teina Pora, but with David Bain as well. I mean, he mentioned the fact that Joe Karam was one of those ones that actually made publicity of the issue. I mean, he can screw his face up if he wants, but the fact is that those victims of gross miscarriages of justice would never have come to light unless they had a few things: one, a champion of the community that believed in them enough to make enough noise for them, on their behalf; that they had enough money backing them to not only make the noise but take those noises to the court and make sure the right people heard them; but also, a lot of luck involved with that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003ESo if it is true that the argument from the National Party is that that\u2019s the norm, and that that\u2019s the status quo, and that that\u2019s what\u2019s effective, and therefore they\u2019re not voting for this bill, then we\u2019re in real trouble, because we\u2019ve got an Opposition party that can\u2019t see the issues that have arisen through this justice system. Look, we have a great justice system\u2014don\u2019t be mistaken\u2014but we will always have mistakes, and we\u2019ll always have errors and issues, and cases will fall through the cracks. This is what this commission\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b77c43f159947baa1b2a9d0f85775f7\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got three appeals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e355c622103b4d5fac07364c3451cca2\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014will help solve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EMr Bishop, I believe, just said, \u201CWell, three people.\u201D Well, I\u2019d like him to stand face to face to those people and say this isn\u2019t worth it. Mr Penk actually, and I wrote down when he said it, said that this is a potential to open up cans of worms when they may not need to be opened up. Well, the fact of the matter is that there are some cases that absolutely need to be opened up, Mr Penk. We cannot accept that the status quo is working. We cannot accept that the status quo is working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EI would just like to say that it\u2019s a pleasure to support this bill, not least of which because this is in the coalition agreement between the Labour Party and the New Zealand First Party. I think that if we look at the most important parts of what this commission does and brings which are different to the status quo, that the National Party is not supporting, it is the fact that it is independent, and it has that mandate to not only review cases that are brought to its attention but also effectively investigate possible miscarriages of justice too. I think that the Minister when he gave his speech explained it quite well, and I hope I can do the same, in regards to the fact that part of the issue that this commission is going to be solving is the fact that miscarriages of justice do not only affect the likes of Teina Pora or those who have had it happen to them, but they also dramatically affect the original victims of the original crime as well, because they have the perspective that not only has the wrong person been punished for this and been held to account but the original perpetrator has not been held to account and is still out there. I think it\u2019s a very important point that the Minister made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EI think what also the National Party is, unfortunately, missing from it is that there is quite a high threshold in order for the commission to be able to give any case to the Court of Appeal. It needs to include a number of considerations before it takes that step and it is quite a high threshold, like I said. It includes that the eligible person has exercised their right of appeal; the extent to which the application relates to the argument, evidence, information or a question of law previously raised; and, third, that there is actually a prospect that the Court of Appeal will actually allow it and hear it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is supporting this bill. It\u2019s a very good bill, and we believe that it strikes the right balance between having the high threshold but also ensuring that miscarriages of justice that need to be addressed are. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u002226da8f4a5d8d408abd4c2021e5d45a74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226da8f4a5d8d408abd4c2021e5d45a74\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m quite pleased to be following the member Darroch Ball, because he has spoken after me on a couple of previous occasions as this bill has moved through the House, and I think he has tried repeatedly to suggest that I and other National Party speakers have been arguing that the status quo is fine and that there are no problems. That hasn\u2019t been the position that we have been articulating. What we have said is that this bill is not the solution to the problem that Government members have been identifying, and, in fact, we are concerned that this creation of the new Criminal Cases Review Commission will give rise to further miscarriages of justice, albeit of a different type, and, in particular, relating to victims. And I\u2019ll come back to that in a moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI do want to commend the very fine work that the member for Helensville, our court spokesman, has done in leading the charge for National on this bill, because it\u2019s fairly unusual for a first-term member to take the lead. He has really picked up the ball and run with it in a very impressive way and I think he articulated the National Party\u2019s concerns very clearly before, so I won\u2019t cover all of the points that he made, but I\u2019ll just thank him for the work that he has done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe real solution to the problems, or at least some of the problems that have been identified, is to improve the timeliness of the way in which courts deal with the issues that come before them. And we do have a problem at the moment that sees many people becoming victims of that old maxim, \u201CJustice delayed is justice denied.\u201D Unfortunately, by creating the Criminal Cases Review Commission, there is a very real risk that those delays will be exacerbated, adding further to the suffering of those who are seeking justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI did appreciate the fact that in his opening remarks, as the Minister of Justice moved the third reading of this bill tonight, he complimented both Chris Penk and me for our contributions. I think we have had a very thoughtful debate on both sides of the House. We\u2019re not in agreement, but there has been genuine engagement and a respectful acknowledgment of each other\u2019s points of view. So I want to thank the Minister for doing that. And he did, at least, acknowledge the fact that we have repeatedly raised as one of our main reasons for not being able to support this bill our concern that it will add further to the suffering of victims. There is nothing in the bill that acknowledges that victims have a very real interest in this matter and, in fact, by failing to deal with the rights of victims, this bill does pose a very real threat of re-victimising and re-traumatising the experiences that victims have to go through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EAs is often said in this House, they don\u2019t choose to be victims, they don\u2019t choose to end up in the criminal justice system, they don\u2019t choose to relive the trauma of going through the trial\u2014and sometimes many trials\u2014in order to lead to the outcome that the courts will come to. And so we should be very mindful of their concerns and not adding to them, which, as I say, we believe is happening. And so while the Minister did acknowledge that we had raised those concerns, I was disappointed that I don\u2019t believe tonight in his speech he gave an answer to them. He certainly didn\u2019t deal with the fundamental concerns that we had raised and reassure us that our concerns are unfounded. We\u2019re getting towards the end of this debate, but I hope that some of the remaining speakers will deal specifically with that issue. And I know that there are many people who advocate for victims who are hoping to hear that as well. It\u2019s getting late in the piece, but let\u2019s still hope it might happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t need to say much more other than to say I don\u2019t doubt for one moment the good intent that is underpinning this bill, and that, I think, is why we\u2019re having a very respectful debate. There clearly are issues that have been well highlighted by some previous speakers relating to some high-profile miscarriages of justice. The Minister mentioned some of those; so have some of my colleagues. Sadly, they have occurred in the past and, almost inevitably, miscarriages of justice will occur again in the future. But this bill won\u2019t stop that, and this bill is highly unlikely to resolve some of the most significant cases that have happened without adding further problems. It is an expensive measure that I think doesn\u2019t meet its mark, and for that reason, as others have indicated on this side of the House, unfortunately, we are still unable to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u002263a554948b374859997cf8ae11468ed6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263a554948b374859997cf8ae11468ed6\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s quite a thrill for me to stand in support of this bill on its third reading, and I do want to congratulate and acknowledge the Minister of Justice, as well as the coalition partner who, very wisely, included this as part of their agreement and brought it to us in the House. So thanking everyone on this side of the House, I do so as a member of the Bar and as a member of the executive of the New Zealand Criminal Bar Association: an organisation that lobbied for this for many years, an organisation that represents defence lawyers, prosecutors, judges, members of the police force, justice sector experts and professionals and academics\u2014people at the front lines. We knew that this Criminal Cases Review Commission was something that was needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe based that lobbying on the success that commissions like this have had elsewhere in the world, like the UK but also on the ever-increasing heartbreaking deterioration of New Zealand\u2019s own justice system\u2014and we are a country who prides ourselves in having a system of justice that\u2019s not only fair, not only transparent but also accessible equally to everyone, that isn\u2019t being bought and sold on the free market. Part of that is the right to access justice when a miscarriage of justice has occurred. Part of the right to fair process\u2014and most people know the right to fair trial, the right to counsel; all of those things. But here in New Zealand we also recognise the fundamental right to an appeal, a right that was eroded so\u2014I\u2019ll say \u201Cheartbreaking\u201D again and I\u2019ll refer the National Party to the Court of Appeal judgment that said their legal aid policy was not just unfair but unlawful. Imagine that. Imagine a Minister of Justice adopting policy that the Court of Appeal told her was unlawful and maintaining that in a system of justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e347d528903b4da186179a4d3e0806c7\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: You pass legal bills every day. You\u2019re part of the coalition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cf91289214f4d57919ed7cff31e7bf5\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN\u003C/span\u003E: You did it. You did it and the judgment stands. Imagine how embarrassing it must be, and that\u2019s why they\u2019re so loud tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EAn appeal is a complex thing. An appeal is something that needs to be dealt with by senior lawyers, because a miscarriage of justice isn\u2019t just that a finding of facts may have been wrong. It\u2019s not just that a jury could have found differently than a different jury or a judge could have found differently on a matter of fact or law; it\u2019s that something went so fundamentally wrong that the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220af5ef3c47614022b9bf31b35f2cca4a\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Well, appeal it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7902b4716f84c6680eea8668492d2cb\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, people can\u2019t appeal, actually, because you cut legal aid so much that only the wealthy can appeal, and that\u2019s shameful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290e8ee168bd74ebf821e18ba7266b02b\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, shame on me. Shame on me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242761ee12d584ada90e94f0f3f51c1c5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member. Could the Hon David Bennett make a higher standard of contribution or resist making one at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e53a2d7b2f844f1a9919df61648e1b76\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s uncertain at this point. But the point is that an appeal requires a senior lawyer, and with the cuts to legal aid\u2014the cuts that were found to be unlawful by the Court of Appeal\u2014that hasn\u2019t been possible in New Zealand in the majority of cases for a very long time. We haven\u2019t been able to assess whether a judge made a ruling that was so wrong in law that a miscarriage occurred. We haven\u2019t been able to figure out whether witnesses should have been interviewed and weren\u2019t by counsel, who made an error, because it is a high-level thing. But the other thing is that we know people are litigious. Criminal appellants can be litigious, so the courts do also get a lot of cases\u2014and people have raised this point\u2014that are superfluous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWell, this commission\u2014this bill, once it\u2019s passed\u2014will protect our system of justice from both of those things. Our courts are overworked. They do have to deal with a lot, and this means that the bar is met at a different level: that we know\u2014experts have told us\u2014that a case has merit. The commission is not deciding the case; it\u2019s deciding whether there is merit enough for the Court of Appeal to consider it. At that point, the court considers it, so the courts\u2019 workload comes down. It\u2019s much more efficient, and you know what? It saves victims the trauma of coming to court in cases that are superfluous appeals. It actually protects victims, so high-level expert decisions are made about whether or not something went wrong in the law, went wrong in terms of the factual findings, before a victim has to be dragged into court. That\u2019s the protection that this bill, actually, will provide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EAnd what\u2019s more that I would like to celebrate is the commission\u2019s mandate to actually launch its own inquiries and tell the Government, based on what it\u2019s seeing in terms of the appeals that are coming to it, what might be going wrong in our system of justice. That is invaluable. If we know that we are falling over in certain ways, if judges are making certain mistakes across the nation in the same way, if we know that police are falling short in different ways, that\u2019s invaluable to us. For the first time in our system, we\u2019re going to have an independent commission telling us that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EAnd what\u2019s more, there is the recommendation of the inclusion in the committee of tikanga M\u0101ori expertise, and we know that that has been a huge shortfall for our system of justice for a very long time. We know that miscarriages of justice are much more likely to affect M\u0101ori. We know that our system of justice at every level targets M\u0101ori unfairly, whether it\u2019s in arrests, in convictions, in sentences. That\u2019s what miscarriages of justice are about, and we\u2019re going to have experts on this commission making those findings, launching their own inquiries, and saving the courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo I do commend this bill to the House, but, before I do, I would like to acknowledge past presidents of the Criminal Bar Association of New Zealand, Tony Bouchier, and the present one, Noel Sainsbury. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the whole executive committee of the Criminal Bar Association\u2014everyone who fought for this\u2014for being activists as well as lawyers, for suing the Government and winning when it did something unfair and unlawful, for standing up for access to justice and for equality, and today, we\u2019ve made a little bit of that into law. So I do commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d037695210d9453d86ad9413a98a2c75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d037695210d9453d86ad9413a98a2c75\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just don\u2019t see the need for this bill in our court system. Now, we have a very strong judicial system, and I remember when the Labour Party brought to this House the need to remove the Privy Council and replace it with the Court of Appeal in New Zealand. They were very adamant, at that stage, that that would be the final court and all that was needed for the court system. Suddenly, now we have the need for a commission of review. There\u2019s no need in our small country to have another stage in the legal system. This is really just trying to bring more bureaucracy into the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e386054537a6436485dd7e384a66c628\u0022\u003EGolriz Ghahraman\u003C/span\u003E: This isn\u2019t a stage; that\u2019s not how it works, David. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0988ebb24904a73940e9b676b147b27\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: That is how it works, because it is a review commission. So in between every level of the court system, someone can apply to this review commission, and then\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ece38e5a28e49f9878188ed529d0301\u0022\u003EGolriz Ghahraman\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, it\u2019s a diversion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e29547329e004796bc859b235b3cbb25\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014and so it is another court in our four-court system. And why would we want to do that? Why do we need to do that? It\u2019s just a gross abuse of New Zealand taxpayer funds for the interests of the Green Party so that they can feel that they are dealing with people\u2019s personal interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s very sad that the New Zealand First Party, which is the handbrake on this Government\u2014or they say they are\u2014has let this go through. And it\u2019s very silly that the Labour Party\u2014that, actually, had proposed to take out the Privy Council and replace it with the Court of Appeal\u2014is now buckling to the pressure of the Green Party to have this fifth court process. It\u2019s completely unnecessary, will achieve nothing, and is part of a coalition that looks for problems where there are none and just creates more bureaucracy in the system, more costs in the system, and a failure of a justice system that actually works very well as it stands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3010938a11e433db7c6a5069374b24e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3010938a11e433db7c6a5069374b24e\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. E ng\u0101 mema o Te Whare nei, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273f5185a039247e5b46d08211b5ccaa0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, I omitted to say this is a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277443b334e7640299b11c152c8494e1b\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on the Criminal Cases Review Commission Bill in the third and final reading. There are a couple of points that speakers previous to me have raised that I\u2019m going to address in my contribution. First and foremost is in the Minister\u2019s introduction of this third reading. He used the phrase \u201Csafety valve\u201D, and that this commission should be seen as a safety valve, adding to our justice system. I want to reference that, because that\u2019s exactly what we are trying to do here. The commission, as the Minister outlaid, will be set up to investigate miscarriages of justice. I, unlike that previous member that\u2019s resumed his seat, David Bennett, have every faith that the appointed commissioners will not just take any frivolous cases, but will subject those approaching the commission to the same test that we have currently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIn the Minister\u2019s use of the phrase \u201Csafety valve\u201D\u2014I would think all members of the House would consider how we improve our justice system. I believe we do have a very well-oiled justice system, but, like we said previously, we get things wrong. And so we should be open to forever improving our justice system so that those that are subjected to it feel that they are being treated fairly. The other words the Minister used\u2014and it\u2019s also in some of our contributions in the reading of this bill\u2014were independence and targeted. So this commission will be an independent body targeting those that may bring their cases to them. They won\u2019t be part of the Ministry of Justice, where, presently, if you have applied for the prerogative of mercy clause, you then have to fit within the Ministry of Justice\u2019s current, busy workload. So having an independent body that has the resources, the energy, and the targeted expectation that will examine each appeal, I think, is a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI want to just talk about the make-up, and I want to talk about the introduction of a commissioner that has knowledge in tikanga M\u0101ori and Te Reo M\u0101ori and knowledge of Te Ao M\u0101ori. I want to acknowledge the work of the Justice Committee. They couldn\u2019t agree on making this particular\u2014couldn\u2019t agree on the bill, but they did make a series of well-considered amendments. One of them, actually, when I read it, I thought I was reading a select committee report from the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, because not only did we talk about the knowledge of Te Ao M\u0101ori and tikanga M\u0101ori, we talk about specialists advisers with cultural knowledge, and we also talk about procedures consistent with the Treaty principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESome members in this House have talked about certain sectors of our community that do not access the appeal rights within our justice system, none more so than M\u0101ori, and in terms of the prerogative of mercy, virtually none\u2014very few. The Teina Pora case, as expressed by other members in this House, was not ignited or engaged or instigated at his instigation; it was his advocates and friends on the side. And if we are going to ensure that our justice system is equitable and accessible, then a commissioner surely must be a way to achieve that aim. And so the Criminal Cases Review Commission Bill is attempting to do that. It is attempting to add the value and make sure that our justice system is free and accessible to all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIn my closing minute, I want to acknowledge the Minister for bringing this important piece of legislation to the House. I want to acknowledge New Zealand First, who advocated for this bill. I want to acknowledge the submitters that came in front of the Justice Committee. I want to acknowledge the officials that wrote it, and also the select committee members who considered it and made some very good amendments. It is a point to all of us on this Justice Committee that there are clearly going to be occasions where we differ across the House. It is always my hope, as the chair of the Justice Committee, that we actually report back to the House on pieces of legislation, even though we disagree. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002277a12db597d8435fa5000b0817613278\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277a12db597d8435fa5000b0817613278\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call in the third reading of the Criminal Cases Review Commission Bill. Look, I just want to start by saying that I think everyone in this House would agree that the Teina Pora case was a terrible miscarriage of justice, and it was a tragedy of a series of events that led to a conviction that, as we all know, shouldn\u2019t have happened. Meka Whaitiri, the previous speaker, highlighted the fact that through advocacy and through some individuals that believed in him and got behind him and supported him, actually, we are able, finally\u2014and it took way too long\u2014to have at least some vindication for him and some compensation to follow up as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut the reality of it is that the Criminal Cases Review Commission wouldn\u2019t have helped Teina Pora one little bit. It wouldn\u2019t have changed his outcome. It wouldn\u2019t have changed the process. You\u2019ve got the speaker from New Zealand First Darroch Ball standing up, and I don\u2019t doubt Darroch\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa44122b2a5c4e80a8b265a8dfaf6707\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Full name, please, Mr Mitchell. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ff5cb65e0ad4e8aac327d6cc47c16ec\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014that he has a genuine belief in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa868a7702ce454685bd9d2af86a1f74\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Full name of members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb2ffacd95354625b1b593ee924b3f70\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I said \u201CDarroch Ball\u201D. So I don\u2019t doubt at all Darroch Ball\u2019s belief in this bill. However, he said the threshold\u2014the test\u2014to actually get a case into the Criminal Cases Review Commission is very high. It\u2019s a very high test. So if that\u2019s the case, and if you actually went back and had a look, I don\u2019t even know whether Teina Pora\u2019s case would even have got in front of the Criminal Cases Review Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut then you come back to the bill and, actually, when you look at the test, the test is very low. The standard the commission must meet to refer cases back to the appeal court is merely that it is in the interests of justice to do so. That is a very, very low test, and I anticipate that you\u2019ll have a flood of applications to this commission. By the way, the commissioners themselves\u2014you would have to challenge and question whether or not they\u2019ve got the right training and the right background to be actually making decisions like this, and all I can see is just a mass referral straight back into the appeal court that will put pressure back on the court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI have to say that Chris Penk, who took control of this bill and shepherded it through all stages in the House and the select committee and who has done an outstanding job and who, by the way, is a qualified lawyer that\u2019s been involved in our criminal justice system as a partner in a law firm before he came to this House of Representatives, tried to put a very good Supplementary Order Paper into the House to actually strengthen the bill around the rights of victims to make sure that they are engaged and to make sure that they understood what was happening and understand that, actually, the case was now back in front of the Criminal Cases Review Commission\u2014what that actually meant for them\u2014and it wasn\u2019t supported. So I find it a bit rich that we have the Government parties standing up and telling us how strong this bill is and how good it is, and yet they wouldn\u2019t actually support the people that are adversely affected or who will be materially affected by the cases that come up in front of the commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI think that we\u2019ve been very clear and very articulate about the fact that we will support any good legislation that comes to this House that\u2019s going to strengthen our criminal justice system, and especially around protection for victims, but this bill does not do that. It doesn\u2019t even come close to it. It\u2019s going to be additional cost, it\u2019s laying another layer of complexity inside our criminal justice system to slow things down when we already have a very good appeals process, and, on top of that, we\u2019re going to have victims that aren\u2019t even going to be consulted or included or who understand what is actually involved with this process. So we cannot support this bill. We would have liked to have seen changes made to strengthen it, especially around victims\u2019 rights. They weren\u2019t supported, and that was unfortunate. Therefore, the National Party in Opposition cannot support this bill. Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u002204ed67942d8b481b96ba5ea411730b09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204ed67942d8b481b96ba5ea411730b09\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Gosh, you know, I\u2019ve listened really hard through this debate to try and really understand the logic of the argument being put across by the other side of the House, and I\u2019m still not there yet. I\u2019ve heard \u201Ccost\u201D and \u201Ccomplexity\u201D said numerous times, and never once have I heard \u201Cjustice\u201D or \u201Cfairness\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ESo I went and looked for that quote that starts \u201CThe measure of a society\u201D or \u201CA society can be judged\u201D, and I found a whole lot of different versions of it, as we know, from people like Dostoevsky. He said, \u201CA society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals\u201D. Nelson Mandela said that \u201Cno one truly knows a nation until one has been inside its jails. A nation should not be judged by how it treats its highest citizens, but its lowest ones.\u201D You know, there was Gandhi, there was Truman\u2014variations on the theme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EBasically, the point is that, I guess, the divide that exists between the National Party and the Government is around values. It is around a values-based system that actually puts a value on justice and on trying to strive for something that is better to ensure that what we are trying to strive for is a justice system that doesn\u2019t settle for miscarriages of justice when they occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ESo I went and had a bit of a look through as to what was being said during the debate around this bill, and I only came on to the Justice Committee towards the end of this, when it was almost being reported back to the House. But I wanted to read what some of the legal minds were saying about the concept of the Criminal Cases Review Commission and what sat behind it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s this chap who, I understand, is recently deceased\u2014Sir Thomas Thorp, a former High Court judge\u2014who spoke a few years ago, saying that it was inevitable that a criminal cases review commission would be established in this part of the world. His comments were influenced by a review that he conducted in 2005, comparing New Zealand\u2019s system of dealing with claimed miscarriages of justice with those in Scotland and England. I know that they were dismissed by the other side of the House, but, based on those experiences, Sir Thomas estimated that there were likely to be at least 20 innocent people in jail here, and he concluded that we should establish something akin to the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission. Referrals by that commission had resulted in around four wrongful convictions being corrected each year, compared to New Zealand\u2019s rate of one to two every two years under the royal prerogative of mercy system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI guess that maybe what it comes down to is what the National Party is saying tonight about cost and complexity. It\u2019s too high a cost, in their view, to improve our system so that there is a better system for miscarriages of justice. I think that Meka Whaitiri referred before to the safety valve system\u2014a better safety valve system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EActually, when Andrew Little was speaking about the justification for this piece of legislation, he talked about the intent of keeping the commission at arm\u2019s length from the judiciary. He said that \u201Cmiscarriages are currently handled through the Ministry of Justice but the new commission will be independent of the ministry as a way of keeping it free from the perception of undue influence.\u201D He said that \u201CThere will be people in prison who should not be there. The benefit of the commission is that it will use a more methodical and systematic approach to dealing with claims of miscarriages of justice.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ECould we not aim to be better? Could we not aim to be a better country in this regard? Is that not worth something\u2014to strive to be better, where people feel that if there is a miscarriage where they are imprisoned, there is somewhere to go that is better, where there are better outcomes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ENigel Hampton QC said a couple of things about this. He said that \u201Cthe royal prerogative of mercy process is long out-dated and too constrained.\u201D and, according to him, two of its principal defects are \u201Cthat the \u2018handling\u2019 of petitions for its exercise rests with \u2018insiders\u2019 within the very system under critical scrutiny, rather than with a separate body of independent, objective observers, based and acting outside the mainstream criminal justice system; and that no proper re-investigation of the facts occurs\u2014instead, reliance [rests] on the \u2018fresh\u2019 materials put before the officials by the petitioner, rather than having a body with an uncluttered mind prepared to reinvestigate (whether fully or in discrete areas) the matter at issue.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t know about you\u2014not you, Madam Speaker, or it might include you\u2014but isn\u2019t that something we could aspire to? To be better at this, and to be a country where we could actually hold our heads up high and say that the measure of our society is that we want to make sure that we treat our most vulnerable in the best way possible so that they have better access to justice and that that justice can be seen to be served. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00223914e4afe5e1431297a9a2a4324d0b7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223914e4afe5e1431297a9a2a4324d0b7b\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise in opposition to this bill as the last National Party speaker on the Criminal Cases Review Commission Bill. I do want to just acknowledge the sentiment of what the Hon Clare Curran was saying there around the importance of justice and the importance to ensure that we don\u2019t see miscarriages of justice taking place. But the problem with this bill is it is not going to solve that. It\u2019s not going to create a perfect system. It\u2019s not going to actually stop miscarriages of justice happening in the first place. All this bill is doing is setting up another process whereby another body is able to look into a case and make a decision as to whether this case should be referred to the Court of Appeal; that\u2019s simply what it does, and actually that\u2019s already what people have the right to be able to do. They have the right to be able to appeal their cases and to appeal to the Court of Appeal, who can then make a decision as to whether there are grounds for something to be re-looked at and looked into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe issue here in our court system is actually issues of timeliness, which need to be sorted, issues of representation, issues which actually will make our system faster and fairer so that people do have access to justice and access to ensuring they have access to the appellate courts as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI do just want to reiterate the point made by my colleague Chris Penk, who has been standing up talking about victims. The Hon Clare Curran might say, \u201CNo, we need to get justice.\u201D, and I agree, but let\u2019s also talk about victims, because they are also part of the picture here. When you have a process which allows those who have been convicted to simply go to this new body to try and find, potentially try and find, another grounds, another way to get to the Court of Appeal, where there may or may not have been a miscarriage of justice, why shouldn\u2019t victims be notified? Why shouldn\u2019t the victim of that crime actually be notified? I think it\u2019s a real shame that they aren\u2019t even notified that their case may be being reviewed by the Criminal Cases Review Commission. That is something which is fundamental to our criminal justice system, is the recognition of victims and their rights. It should not be something which is given tokenism, which is what this piece of legislation does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe National Party does not support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad583af27d924367845f21b96956bf22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad583af27d924367845f21b96956bf22\u0022\u003EGREG O\u0027CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E Arthur Conan Doyle, Agatha Christie, John Grisham, Stieg Larsson, Jack Reacher\u2014all crime writers. The world loves a good mystery. The world loves a good criminal case. What\u2019s happened, of course, is that in a world which is a very digital world, a world where many people receive their entertainment, receive, in fact, their information on the world, they get it from the television, they get it from the movies, and they get from the books. What that means is that everybody becomes an expert on law and order. You can be a photocopier salesman and still stand up in the House and talk about being an expert on law and order because you\u2019ve watched a few mysteries on the telly. Well, in reality, it\u2019s not like that in the real world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EIn the real world, when a crime is committed, when the detectives are called in\u2014and yes, I trained detectives, but it\u2019s not like it is on the telly. It\u2019s a matter of rebuilding what\u2019s happened. The art of a good detective is to reproduce what happened at the time of the crime, so that everything you learn, every single fact you learn\u2014obviously, you start with the body, what did we learn? So we interrogate every fact we learn, so we understand. So it\u2019s a building process to make sure that we fully understand what exactly has happened, to reconstruct, continually reconstruct, continually reconstruct, so by the time you have that case before the court, you can answer the questions. There will always be those parts that you can\u2019t reconstruct without. The best form of evidence is always a properly obtained confession from the suspect or the offender, but under various changes in the law, that\u2019s a relatively rare thing these days. So we compensate with DNA. We compensate with fingerprints. We compensate with other forms of evidence which make up the case and often, in the absence of a confession, do help make the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThere are certainly people who are in prison who are innocent. Most of them are a little bit further down the food chain of offending. Many of them are there because they\u2019ve been forced by their gang leader to confess. They\u2019re there because they may have confessed for different reasons and they end up in court. They\u2019re not the ones that generally get captured. They are not the ones that end up in North \u0026amp; South magazine. They\u2019re not the ones that end up in television documentaries. They are not the ones that end up the most talked about cases. In fact, several speakers tonight have mentioned Teina Pora. The reason it took the Teina Pora case to come to court to get the justice that he rightly got was because he didn\u2019t represent one of those popular cases. He didn\u2019t represent someone that was immediately an attractive proposition for a magazine article. He didn\u2019t actually attract those types, whereas with many of the cases that did, generally where, and almost invariably, the offender was someone who the people who wrote the book, shall I say, could relate to, that\u2019s generally what happened. Someone who was probably from the same socioeconomic class, that was what the type of people\u2014that\u2019s where a lot of the cases that were heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo in the time that\u2019s left to me, how does this relate to this bill? And you might ask\u2014I did, perhaps because I\u2019ve been speaking for a while. Where it becomes very pertinent is that the justices\u2014we as legislators here, we play a very important part to ensure that people have faith in the system. It\u2019s about ensuring that, as much as people have an understanding of the system, it\u2019s more important\u2014and they think they have an understanding, but actually what they really do need is actually to have faith in our system. New Zealand does have a very good justice system, many people have spoken about it here tonight. I\u2019ve been lucky enough to have spent time with justice systems and examined justice systems around the world. We are pretty good. Like we do many things in New Zealand, we benefit from being one single jurisdiction. We benefit from being very efficient. Unlike the Americans, who have, at last count, something like 19,000 different police forces\u2014even our Australian colleagues have eight\u2014we\u2019re very rare round the world, as there is one jurisdiction, and that makes us very, very efficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBut even within that, even in that digital age that I\u2019ve spoken about, it is important there\u2019ll be those cases that because of people\u2019s ability to grab hold of the airwaves, because of people\u2019s ability\u2014good writers, good self-promoters, just good promoters\u2014to actually get the airwaves, to have a good proportion of New Zealand\u2019s population actually believing that an injustice may have been done, then it actually is necessary to have another system. That\u2019s why while I may have been a little bit sceptical when I first came to this, I now do understand that this is not actually another level. We still have the Supreme Court, we still have a Court of Appeal, we still have the High Court, and they are the courts that will actually look at the legalities. They\u2019ll look at it whether evidence was properly obtained; that\u2019s through that system. They will ensure that they test the legality of the evidence, because anyone that\u2019s been on a jury will understand that a lot of the evidence that comes before court is tested. The jury are kicked out of that room for some time because they can\u2019t hear the arguments as to whether they can actually hear that evidence at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EWhat I like about this is that actually there is going to be the opportunity that much of that evidence that doesn\u2019t get heard\u2014in fact, once the court case is gone through, it doesn\u2019t actually get held by others who are going to be actually looking at the case\u2014will actually get to be seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EI think for every time there will be doubts raised\u2014actually, anyone who understands that it\u2019s just about putting the right people on this Criminal Cases Review Commission will actually see that, yes, if it\u2019s looked at properly, the correct conclusion was reached: the jury did get it right, the judge did get it right, and the right decisions were made. Unfortunately, because of the way the separation\u2014because of, as I said before, the preponderance of crime stories, the preponderance of documentaries and now all sorts of social media and those who have no right to be commenting, those experts on law and order\u2014with the preponderance of them out there, actually, they will look. What I\u2019d like to see is someone with an investigative background also on this. I see there\u2019s the opportunity for that to ensure that that actually does happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo this is a piece of legislation whose time has come. I like to think we\u2019ve now entered the digital age. We\u2019ve entered the age where so much of our information that we get\u2014we don\u2019t get it from a newspaper that obeys the rules: the good old rules. There will be journalists here who will know that when we began in journalism, if you\u2019re going to allege something, you go to the person you\u2019re making the allegations against to ensure there\u2019s some semblance of balance in that newspaper story. That was what reporters, that was what the newspapers, that was what the media used to be like. It\u2019s not like that anymore. We now know, with the preponderance of websites\u2014most of which are very partisan\u2014this is really a result of that partisanship. This is the result of the need to ensure that with that partisanship that is so much a part of the modern way in which people receive their information, that there is now another method to test that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo, again, having been on the journey through this bill, beginning with it as something of a sceptic, I\u2019ve seen it. I\u2019ve looked about it objectively, and I think this is a piece of legislation whose day has come, and I\u2019m happy to commend it to the House. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022060306b45e8b491a83f5b25f6b82664c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Criminal Cases Review Commission Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002283169cf2e21f49e99559ec12c50867fd\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Wheel Clamping) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cbd4963f3d454e7fa7af0867f9d7d476\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5c473542fa64bc7bd8bd6b5a8630c5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5c473542fa64bc7bd8bd6b5a8630c5e\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Land Transport (Wheel Clamping) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI am very happy and I am very proud to get this piece of legislation to its third reading and not too far away from becoming law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI think most New Zealanders have an inherent idea of what a fair go is, what is fair, what is reasonable, and also an inherent idea of what is unreasonable. The practice that we are regulating this evening is an area which, I think, for some time has been an area where most New Zealanders have seen uncontrolled, exorbitant, and, sometimes, intimidating behaviour from those who immobilise cars in the legislative sense and language, or who clamp vehicles in private car parks, sometimes without those cars actually breaching any time limit or rules for that car park, and then charging what, in many cases, were unreasonable and, in a few extremely unreasonable cases, exorbitant amounts of money for those clamps or immobilisers to be removed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThis is a piece of legislation that, when I took over the Commerce and Consumer Affairs portfolio, was something that I inquired into, and, to be perfectly frank, was quite stunned that nothing could be done to deal with this issue unless there was a legislative change. The fact that we\u2019ve had to take this through the legislative process has meant that it\u2019s taken some time, but we\u2019re very happy to get it to this point. The point of this bill is to end the practice of the cowboy clampers who have been preying on people who can least afford to pay exorbitant amounts of money to have their cars unclamped, and to cap the fee to remove that clamp, in the situations contained in this bill, to $100.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ENow, there was some debate that I was witness to during the committee stage about whether or not enough work had been done to build a case for this piece of legislation. And I also note that the Opposition is voting in favour of this bill. So to the second point, can I thank them for their support of this piece of legislation, but to the first point, can I just say that you can\u2019t have it both ways. The Opposition has criticised this side of the House for setting up reviews or working groups, but this simply was a problem, when I became a Minister, that I wanted to deal with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere wasn\u2019t too much research to be done, other than a regular reading of, potentially, the New Zealand Herald. An endless flow of consumer pain around stories around, again, the likes of $700 being charged to remove a clamp, I think, goes against that inherent feeling of New Zealanders of what a fair go is. Getting charged $700 to remove a clamp from a car, in this Government\u2019s idea, is not a fair go. So we didn\u2019t have to muck around to determine that. We didn\u2019t wait the complete term of a Government to say, \u201CThis is an issue.\u201D We arrived, saw the problem, and did something about it. It\u2019s something that might be a little bit foreign to the members on the other side of the House, but I thank them for their judgment to actually support this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWhat I am looking forward to is, predominantly, my Auckland colleagues using this piece of legislation as one of the things that they can talk about in terms of delivery for their constituents. Again, it\u2019s predominantly Auckland-based stories where those motorists have been preyed upon and nothing was done. Again, endless flows of stories and nothing was done\u2014certainly by the previous Government. So I\u2019m proud to have got this piece of legislation through to the point where we\u2019re at the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESome thanks, again, do need to go to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee for their work on this piece of legislation. It\u2019s not a long bill. It\u2019s quite a simple bill. But I think it will give a lot of people who park on a regular basis\u2014and I think that\u2019s most New Zealanders who\u2019ve got a car\u2014quite a lot of peace of mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere was some robust debate, as I mentioned, again, around the committee stage, and I just wanted to go through some points and some questions that were raised. My colleague Jamie Strange did note that during the select committee process there were some questions raised about whether or not we should do more around signage, and I just wanted to reiterate the message that I gave to the House during the select committee stage that the Fair Trading Act already has the ability to create, under regulations, some standards when it comes to parking signage. So if there is the necessity to go beyond what we\u2019ve got in this piece of legislation, the Fair Trading Act can be brought into play and increased signage standards can be brought in via regulation. So this could be a moveable feast, but I do think this will make a big difference in terms of consumer protection and also, hopefully, preventing a lot of the practices that some of these cowboy clampers have been up to for some time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI do want to notice in the legislation the penalties that will come in if those who have clamped cars transgress against the legislation. For an individual, it will be a fine of up to $3,000, and, for a company, a fine of $15,000. So I hope that not only will the business model for some of those clamping companies change but those potential penalties, if they continue to offend, will act as a rather large financial deterrent for them to continue their ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI do want to apologise also to my colleague Kieran McAnulty, because, during the committee stage, I did say to him that I believed there was an incident where there was some clamping in the town of Masterton. I have rethought that, and it wasn\u2019t Masterton; it was a town in the South Island that I visited, which I won\u2019t mention, because of the cost of the clamping there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EBut, hopefully, the passage of this legislation will mean the end of the pain for those consumers, who, for far too long, have been scared to park in a local car park because of some of the practices of these cowboy clamping companies. We\u2019re quite happy that this legislation sends a message to them that the golden days are over and that charging whatever you like to people who least suspect it has come to an end, and that there\u2019s a limit to what you can charge, because we have tried to strike the balance with property rights too. There are some people who will park incorrectly, and this legislation still allows clamping to occur, but that exorbitant amount of money that some companies charge is to come to an end. And it will be set at $100.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo, again, can I thank\u2014I think\u2014all members in the House, who are going to vote for this legislation, for giving those motorists the peace of mind that the maximum they will pay, if they do transgress, won\u2019t be $700 or $800 but that it will be $100, and I think that will give a whole lot of New Zealanders peace of mind and that they won\u2019t be scared that when they go down to the local shops, they\u2019re going to end up with a $700 bill instead of a $2.50 loaf of bread. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022 data-id=\u00227177849850b54613abd92131aff4be9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227177849850b54613abd92131aff4be9e\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak on the Land Transport (Wheel Clamping) Amendment Bill, after that great 10 minutes from the Minister\u2014a fine, stellar performance. Now, this is not\u2014and I\u2019ll make an allusion shortly to a previous speaker, just in passing\u2014some pot-belly thriller. We\u2019re not going to keep you in suspense to the end. We are going to support this bill in this its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EBut I just want to note in passing, having heard that speech from the Minister, that I\u2019ve sat here listening to another member talk a whole list of fiction crime writers, in a speech that I couldn\u2019t make head or tail of, but I do think the House has found its very own Inspector Clouseau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EBut on to this bill\u2014on to this particular matter. I have a bouquet and brickbat for the Government. The first bouquet, to the Minister: unlike his colleagues, this Minister decided to do something and then just went ahead and did it. If some of his colleagues were of a similar mind, we might have actually passed some legislation in this House that wasn\u2019t the work of the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EBut that comes, on the other side of that coin, with the other side of this\u2014the brickbat. See, what would normally happen\u2014what would normally happen\u2014in the passage of legislation: first, the Government would have an idea\u2014unless it\u2019s this Government, in which case they\u2019ll either outsource the idea to a working group or take the idea from the Opposition. But a Government would have an idea. They would then set officials to do a bit of work to get some facts and some evidence to support some policy that they\u2019d then turn into legislation and bring to the House. Well, we had a gut feel from Mr Faafoi. Minister Faafoi said, \u201CI need to do this. I want to do this. Don\u2019t worry about facts and evidence. We\u2019re not an evidence-led Government; we\u2019re just going to take some action.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EWell, at least they\u2019ve taken some action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0dd3caa8b004583bae435dae929b6bb\u0022\u003EHon Kris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: Well, vote against it, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281b5843240cf4240a837d586e5cf5e28\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON\u003C/span\u003E: In actual fact\u2014we\u2019re going to return to the bouquet, Mr Faafoi\u2014we\u2019re actually going to support this action. The fact that they didn\u2019t bother with the evidence is material, but we\u2019ll let it fly this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EWe have all heard stories in our electorates\u2014all of us\u2014of people that have been treated terribly by people who have the authority to clamp a vehicle\u2014whether it\u2019s clamping moments after a car is parked illegally or improperly or charging enormous amounts of money to get that car unclamped. The desire to do something was clearly there across both sides of the House. Regrettably, because the Government didn\u2019t do it, the Transport and Infrastructure Committee had to do the work of actually working through the policy\u2014and I commend them; they did a very, very good job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not going to take a long time, but I just want to mention one other thing in passing, because\u2014looking across at Ms Russell\u2014we are working on another bill in the select committee, where, although it places enormous burden on other people, the ones that are exempt are Government entities. And this is the same case in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003ESo while we are limiting the ability to charge for clamping to $100 in this bill, the ones that get away with it are either central enforcement agencies or, more likely, territorial authorities. So if you\u2019re the Government or city hall, you can charge what you like, but the rest of you are limited to $100.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EBut none the less, aside from that, let us not forget the fact that there are too many instances of people being treated appallingly in terms of wheel-clamping activities. It is right to take action and, notwithstanding any criticism that could be levelled about that policy work, it is still a good thing that for New Zealanders and those who can least afford it, who tend to be the ones that are caught most often with these practices, it is a good thing that we are taking some practical action to change that\u2014and for that I will extend some small credit to the Minister. Congratulations, and we will also commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u002220c35d88ec1542169b098e81015c9719\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220c35d88ec1542169b098e81015c9719\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m happy to take a call on this. Can I commend the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs for taking action on a problem that hasn\u2019t just evaporised, it hasn\u2019t just occurred in the last two years; it\u2019s been around for a long, long, long time: wheel clamping, and the impact it\u2019s had on people who legitimately go about their daily lives. So for the consumers, for the business owners, and for the clamping operators themselves, this bill simply clarifies and ensures that those that are resorting to clamping have a $100 limit\u2014that\u2019s both for the operators as well as those who are subjected to clamping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI just want to share a wee story in supporting this particular bill as a business lease owner of one of my electoral offices\u2014I have four throughout my electorate of Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti. In one particular part of my electorate, Hastings, I am constantly having the back door of my property filled up with our neighbours parking in it. So from a business lease owner, it is hugely disruptive, when you are trying to deal with constituents on a daily basis, that that\u2019s the only parking slot, and, yet, we have people constantly parking where they shouldn\u2019t be despite the signs saying it\u2019s private. Do I want them clamped? No\u2014no, I don\u2019t. But if they were clamped, I\u2019d like to ensure that the bill that protects both those that are clamped and those that apply the clamps is really, really clear. So this is what the Land Transport (Wheel Clamping) Amendment Bill is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo I want to commend the Minister for taking action as quickly as he has. I\u2019m no longer on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee; I was there when this bill first came to us, and, yes, there was very heated debate as members on that select committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224838a0bcb35945fd92256542b295be2a\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: We want you back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290921193055941c08e1da5b155c39ad1\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much; I\u2019d love to come back. But we had some very, I felt, constructive debates around ensuring that this bill was fit for purpose. We had several submitters that came in, but what I do want to commend the chair of that select committee, Mr Darroch Ball, for is inviting more of the clampers to appear in front of the select committee, to ensure, before we reported back to the House, that we had canvassed their views. So I want to commend the actions of the select committee, as I left, that they took those particular actions so that we were making a piece of legislation that also took into perspective those clamping operators. And I want to commend those that appeared before the select committee and put their views forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIt is a simple bill. It does set clear regulations around it. I believe both consumers\u2014like I said, business operators and clamping operators themselves will welcome this clear, simple piece of legislation. On that note, I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf8ab56b62dd495cbab219c3edd1d096\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf8ab56b62dd495cbab219c3edd1d096\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I think that\u2019s a heroic bit of optimism by the previous speaker, Meka Whaitiri. I\u2019m not sure that wheel-clamping operators are going to welcome this piece of legislation, because what it does is allow the maximum wheel-clamping fee to be $100. I do not think that those people who currently, essentially, extort money out of people on the basis that they\u2019ve parked for five seconds too long in a private parking spot are going to welcome it, and, frankly, I think that\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAnother speaker made mention of the fact that everyone in their electorates has examples of cowboy clampers\u2014the alliteration is a happy coincidence, isn\u2019t it, for this one\u2014cowboy clampers who, essentially, charge extremely high fees. I think every electorate MP would have an example of that; I certainly do in Hutt South. It\u2019s an issue that, when we were last in Government, I actually looked at myself, introducing a bill similar to what we have here. That didn\u2019t happen, but I do welcome the legislation that\u2019s been brought forward, which National is supporting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI suppose, on the one hand, you could say, you know, good on people for taking advantage of a business opportunity. You know, if you park on someone\u2019s private land, it\u2019s not your land; people who own private property are entitled to set the conditions upon the terms that you come on to that property, and if you stay too long, a minute too long, you\u2019ve given up your licence to be on that property and the person whose property you\u2019re on is entitled to ask you to leave and, if you don\u2019t leave, then charge you money. That would be the sort of arch-libertarian view of the world, and I suppose that has some plausibility to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBut I suppose the real point, the simple reality, is that these parking spaces are, for most people, not anywhere different to parking on the street. They\u2019re not any different to parking in a public car park provided by the local council, for example. Typically what they are are three or four parks, sometimes next to public car parks operated by the council. People can\u2019t distinguish because the signage is often totally deficient, and people come back to their car\u2014they think they\u2019ve probably parked in a public car park and they\u2019ve got away with it\u2014and they find that, actually, they\u2019ve parked on Mr Smith\u2019s private car park, and Mr Smith has decided to charge $700 for being over the limit. If you don\u2019t pay, you\u2019re stuffed, basically. So I think this is an attempt to deal with what is clearly a practical, real problem for people, and I think it\u2019s a good step forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESome countries actually ban private wheel clamping. The bill doesn\u2019t go that far. I think that\u2019s something worth thinking about. Some countries do it\u2014I think in various parts of Australia. I think in some states of Australia, it is just banned outright; you can\u2019t do it. I think that\u2019s something that\u2019s worth discussing. But I think, generally, this is a good step forward. I think every electorate MP is going to welcome it. Good on Minister Faafoi for getting on with the job. He\u2019s a man who\u2019s developed a well-deserved reputation as a doer in a Government that is, generally, incompetent at delivering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226235cf4d8cf4b22abd57d2049f22a7d\u0022\u003EBarbara Kuriger\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a lone soldier!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253b3454cf6b04304b02ec494ac02afec\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! He\u2019s a lone soldier! He\u2019s a lone ranger\u2014Faafoi the Lone Ranger! He\u2019s a man who should have been promoted a lot earlier, but good on him for taking action. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022 data-id=\u00221fdd4fa4a8714ec99ece0e51cf5d63c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fdd4fa4a8714ec99ece0e51cf5d63c2\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a pleasure to rise on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Land Transport (Wheel Clamping) Amendment Bill. I also would like to congratulate the Minister Kris Faafoi for bringing in this bill and getting it through the House and also seeing it through the entire process, including the select committee. All those who are on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee can understand that, when we first got it to the select committee, it seemed, on the face of it, quite a simple bill and we thought it would go through quite easily, but it seemed that, when we opened one door and closed that, another three opened and we had to go through them. It was a can of worms, really, solving this issue, and I think that it was because it was so unregulated that, when we started, sort of, to pick up sticks, if you like, it started affecting a whole lot of other different things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EI think that Mr Bishop actually brought up a good point, which was that I think the complicated nature of this issue has caused other jurisdictions to actually ban clamping outright.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EI agree that this could be a conversation in the future, and this would be an interesting one to have, but I think that what we\u2019ve got in front of us, which is a piece of legislation that is quite balanced, and throughout the whole process\u2014not just the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, but that was the main backbone of it, coming up with this legislation, but also all of the stages and including the previous stage, which was coming up with a balanced but focused piece of legislation and getting that balance between the retailers, the companies that do the clamping, and also the people who have fallen victim to the cowboy clampers in unacceptable situations which we all agree we can\u2019t let carry on. There are examples where we\u2019ve had $600, $700, $800 for a fee for getting rid of an immobiliser or a clamp for being two minutes over, or even clamping when there\u2019s children still in the car. So something needed to be done, and I congratulate the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs for bringing this legislation to the House and coming up with what is a good step forward in dealing with those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that was brought up also, because it was a big one in the select committee, was the issue of the signage, but also the big one was the $100 cap. That was debated quite\u2014not heatedly but in-depth and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a4234d2925b473db033843183d20a06\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Collegially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273ad23958eaf43df959c8460d851f40d\u0022\u003EDARROCH BALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, collegially in-depth, and we believe that we\u2019ve come up with a solution, a balanced one and a focused one but also one that can be addressed through regulations in the future, which I also think is quite an important part of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003ESo New Zealand First supports this bill and congratulates the House on supporting it. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022 data-id=\u00226e85ac65825b44ef8fce155a31a27bd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e85ac65825b44ef8fce155a31a27bd7\u0022\u003EHAMISH WALKER (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E It is a real privilege to stand up at 9.57 on a Tuesday night to discuss the Land Transport (Wheel Clamping) Amendment Bill. This is a very important bill. I\u2019ve got some experience with companies that tow cars, as does Denise Lee, as of just Saturday night. Denise Lee had a fantastic concert at U2, and, unfortunately, afterwards, after having a few good hours at U2, she came back and, what do you know, the car\u2019s up on the tow truck. So that was a good lesson for Denise, but she covered her tracks very well, as you would have seen in the media. She\u2019s very quick on her feet. She said \u201CIt wasn\u2019t my fault, because I parked the car and I went to the concert but, unfortunately, I parked my car a bit too quick, as the barriers\u201D\u2014apparently they changed the barriers. They used to put the barriers closer to Mt Smart Stadium, and then she got caught out. So, Denise Lee\u2014it\u2019s a shame she\u2019s not speaking on this good bill. She would have a few good things to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. There\u2019s often a power imbalance with some of these towing companies. Often, they turn up to your car\u2014predatory behaviour\u2014they\u2019ll charge, in one case from a submitter, $740 dollars. Seven hundred and forty dollars for a person that was in a car park for 90 minutes. You may ask: how is that fair? I don\u2019t believe it is, but if you need your car back and your car\u2019s worth more than about a thousand dollars, of course you\u2019re going to pay them the money to get the car back. If you want to take action, often action can take weeks, if not months, in the local courts or through mediation. So it\u2019s good that this bill\u2019s sorting out that power imbalance with some of these companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s no parking wardens in parts of Clutha-Southland. There\u2019s none in Milton, Balclutha, Gore\u2014there\u2019s part-time ones in Gore. In Queenstown, there are part-time parking meters as well. So, just for Denise Lee: if you\u2019re watching this, Denise, it may pay for you to move down to Clutha-Southland, and your car won\u2019t be towed. National supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdd8c80748234e859fdb526eaf4dc9bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdd8c80748234e859fdb526eaf4dc9bf\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green):\u003C/span\u003E E Te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e Te Whare. It is a pleasure to rise and speak to this bill at probably 9.59-odd. The Green Party, of course, supports this very common-sense piece of legislation, that being the Land Transport (Wheel Clamping) Amendment Bill. It\u2019s been well canvassed by a number of speakers before myself about the predatory behaviour that a number of these cowboy clampers\u2014in the words of my colleague Chris Bishop\u2014behave in, charging exorbitant amounts of money to folks who, oftentimes, don\u2019t think that they have been privy to adequate signage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EHowever, it also has to be canvassed the issue of that kind of balance that is required, that balance being that when somebody does park on somebody else\u2019s property, when that property is used as a place of business or, in the instance of my colleague the Hon Meka Whaitiri, as her electorate office, it is indeed the case that that parking spot\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00220c9e5fc4e0d242ee81f0d00e0f00b0e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c9e5fc4e0d242ee81f0d00e0f00b0e4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, but the time has come for me to leave the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191112cc070126049a4b6aaa66a57fefde8d97000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"