"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002250be0284a97c4f8f8a52c3caf3c62a65\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 20 NOVEMBER 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd6327836e1748a5bac3334c662dad14\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 20 NOVEMBER 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d904d87b505045c7a555df8d7b826916\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cafdf07bc8574c8c8f20ac51d2b2ff96\u0022\u003ECzech Republic\u2014Vice-President of the Chamber of Deputies of the Parliament\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00221d0a0b7941374374989ea8a51f8cbcd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d0a0b7941374374989ea8a51f8cbcd4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that members would want to welcome Mr Vojt\u0115ch Pikal, Vice-President of the Chamber of Deputies of the Parliament of the Czech Republic, who is to my left, and the delegation who are present in the gallery. Members, I will note that to the best of my knowledge this is the first occasion when we\u2019ve had a Pirate officially here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EVojt\u0115ch Pikal, accompanied by the Assistant Speakers, entered the Chamber and took a seat on the left of the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4194216452b4862ad11a8d311d187fa\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f813bd682487430cb2cc242d7e73983b\u0022\u003EPacific Parliamentary Forum\u2014Welcome\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u00221eb44111bcea48029f417fdaea067d0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eb44111bcea48029f417fdaea067d0e\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO (Minister for Pacific Peoples):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice and without debate acknowledging the Pacific Parliamentary Forum being held next week at Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a80b53d5d33049139f64a0c4f172a087\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225556ce02fa2a4ab6a3476d1f9cdd68e4\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the House note that the New Zealand Parliament will host its third Pacific Parliamentary Forum next week and welcome our Pacific colleagues, with whom it is a significant opportunity to further build relationships and promote wellbeing, prosperity, security, and good governance in the region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e14474b5b4ee4cc090ec1b0729ec2df7\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a589aee8547343a08ffa320d28655b0e\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202f0cfa9ce0043a8b08a2cb159d56708\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00225ae9aab5bd114902979b5eb8d70c37bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ae9aab5bd114902979b5eb8d70c37bf\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002252118b06d0f94644bf0a9fa3c2f53fae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252118b06d0f94644bf0a9fa3c2f53fae\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Xero recently released its Small Business Insights for September, showing 55.2 percent of Kiwi small business customers were cash-flow positive in the month. Xero said that this was a 10 percent jump from August\u2014higher than the same month last year, and well above the annual average of 50 percent. There was more good news with payment times for small businesses, with times averaging a quarter of a day faster than in September 2018. The data also showed an increase in the total number of people employed in small businesses\u2014up 0.8 percent in September. This is real data from real businesses showing that they continue to perform solidly amidst the challenging global conditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c668300148904d248d09f79df34ebbe1\u0022\u003EWillow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on the outlook for the New Zealand economy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205fca351c2d2492dbbaffb66347e925f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Today, Westpac economists released their economic overview, saying that signs of spring were emerging in the New Zealand economy. Westpac chief economist Dominick Stephens said that while economic growth did likely slow in the September quarter\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d77d7d5b83f49cb95062f89e19d7629\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: That Dominick Stephens is always glass half-full. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdc8ec80e4b34dcf8c2160ac7d7d96ea\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014more recent data suggests the economy will grow more strongly from here. He\u2019s a good friend of yours, I\u2019m sure, Mr Bridges. Obviously, the September quarter data will be released on 19 December, giving many people a chance to be negative about the past, but it is welcome to see more positive outlooks emerging about the future. Dominick Stephens went on to warn that Westpac expects the global situation to worsen as the US economy slows. That\u2019s why we are managing the books carefully, and making important investments in the economy to boost growth, particularly in infrastructure, businesses, and wages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293f9ba94793844c59d5540ee9df69f23\u0022\u003EWillow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on the global context for the New Zealand economy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abf28626db8848d9958e0703f976cf4c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand is a small, open economy, meaning we always need to look at it in the global context. Last week, it was reported that the Australian unemployment rate rose from 5.2 percent to 5.3 percent in seasonally adjusted terms in October. The data showed that the number of unemployed people was up 8.6 percent over the past year, while the underemployment rate also rose in Australia. The Australian unemployment rate is more than 1 percentage point above New Zealand\u2019s unemployment rate, at our third-lowest in a decade. This is another indication that the New Zealand economy is in good shape, particularly compared to the economies we traditionally compare ourselves to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022586cdb8b24a84c9b8a56fd99a20ac6c0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u002201bde5cb4dc74be1aef6c5da6b5ed07e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201bde5cb4dc74be1aef6c5da6b5ed07e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in all of her Ministers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef96d4c663924eeea0f0355bcb77a033\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef96d4c663924eeea0f0355bcb77a033\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and whilst there are many that I could focus on with plaudits today, I am going to single out Minister Kris Faafoi, who, on Sunday, announced the Government has delivered on its promise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201ce3d0e498f489ebb9257c991da4645\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Teacher\u2019s pet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e049a618664c45e7b3bee0c738c13662\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to take the over 1 million New Zealanders who rent a property to make it fairer and more secure by limiting rent increases to once every 12 months, banning the solicitation of rental bids by landlords, improving tenant security by removing a landlord\u2019s right to use no-cause terminations to end a periodic tenancy, and making rental companies safer and more livable by letting tenants add minor fittings. I add that to the banning of letting fees and the healthy homes standards. We are making a difference for those who rent in this country. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022974ebd8904184beb819e176398793360\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Before we go for the next one, I will ask for the volume to be turned down a little bit, especially on my right. I\u2019m not sure that describing a fellow Minister as a teacher\u2019s pet is quite the appropriate thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3da505318b74723a9da63304bab09c3\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she have confidence in her Deputy Prime Minister? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214a4fff07bb048948d91c0b9ac2e978f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c114858c0b604347ae3bc5c2648680c6\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Why? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b44389049114f7aaa8312625116a7cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Because he does a fantastic job on behalf of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aa6a967e0d5454282a3eda53830a49a\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she have confidence that he has been acting within the law at all times? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef6d2f46f4a543978c5d8fbacd4ca2dc\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member, of course, is asking me questions in my capacity as the Prime Minister. What I would say, as a general statement\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ad60b4a8e38420687e2ef305c087046\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! If the members want an answer, they will be quiet and not try and scream down the Prime Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a61766aaf8f34fcca28d190c8b828d42\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ba1d44f1f5e4c08af82c8107671c8f5\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Up until this point, when a Minister has replied \u201CYes\u201D, you\u2019ve said that they\u2019ve answered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfdaa16e7563490a96370fded99bb658\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That could well be the case, and it\u2019s generally been the tradition of this House to have a little bit more explanation for the reasons behind it. If members would prefer just to go to straight yes/no answers where that occurs and to have nothing else and to have the same strict interpretation on questions, I\u2019m happy to go with that. Is that what the member wants? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0b640b269bb4de0b6cfb3124f2cafe9\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: We seem to get the strict interpretation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224030e53b357945e6aa775185e9113e44\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member want that or not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fc91e3665e94345ab577553b041f15c\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re the Chair, not me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e74b350ab9743aa9cc7b5c82fb3c0b8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just trying to work out whether I have a request from the shadow Leader of the House for an absolutely strict interpretation of the Standing Orders with regard to questions and answers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202c4b6a1653049c5a4457af4b9a1e683\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t stand, because you are. [Speaker sits] I\u2019m simply pointing out that rather than telling us to be quiet when the Prime Minister starts to elaborate on a \u201CYes\u201D, perhaps it\u2019s reasonable for us to assume that there would be grounds for questioning, or for some sort of reaction, given that it\u2019s clearly a qualified \u201CYes\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290e563d759954a848d0dfcc72265fb9f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the problem with all of this is that there was so much noise at the beginning of the answer that the shadow Leader of the House didn\u2019t hear it. A further\u2014[Prime Minister stands] Well, no, I think the Prime Minister\u2014well, if the member wants to ask it again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bea66d59e39146fc9c39ad5f7d080f2d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she have confidence the Deputy Prime Minister has been acting within the law at all times? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022990788a15f97415eac69b4ee89683640\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to stick with the convention of this House and reply to questions that of course I have responsibility for. I did not have responsibility, for instance, for the National Party\u2019s compliance or non-compliance with the electoral law, nor do I have responsibility for any other political party\u2019s compliance beyond my own. We have independent agencies for that, and that\u2019s where that responsibility, rightly, lies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bfacda2b1ab4f08ba28f0503619bbc3\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: So does she have confidence that he\u2019s been acting within the law at all times? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237fa034f8a554e2f9a9cf3fd3622f7a4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, it would be wrong to have me, as the leader of a political party, inquire into the practices of any other political party. The member may well remember that, when it came to the National Party\u2019s issues, I did not get into those issues. I left it for other agencies, and I will do the same here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022297db589cae149ef80f9294cd3ed90b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is there a Serious Fraud Office inquiry\u2014going for the last eight months\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227986924f1fca4208893a23e2eeb27456\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: No responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253c3f44f8402487f9a97c2b0f7122a1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014into a political party and its leader to do with $100,000? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb2212f1e9ab42e382f815a68888c8c2\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c929dc4083348afb2e80915dfc84c56\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, first of all, the member will apologise for interjecting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac1b797a070c4a579ba92d0b22ef089b\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. She doesn\u2019t have responsibility for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fd869f8430348fa93823374c8cf849e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ff3028553b94826a3d94b5d55f7a360\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t want to go there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf10c8811da54f1697dde14eb16ba3a7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon? I\u2019m, frankly, getting sick of the interjections and the facial expressions from the Leader of the Opposition. He actually reminds me of Michael Cheika, and it\u2019s just inappropriate for a Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c508551083d440ff8c4f56dbc8f6f59e\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she, as Prime Minister of New Zealand, have confidence that her Deputy Prime Minister has been acting within the law at all times? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022452203b10a0d448cb1f568c2d30cf458\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I have already expressed confidence in the Deputy Prime Minister. The member has been asking questions more broadly around issues of electoral law, and again, as I say, I am not the arbiter of that. We have independent agencies for that, for very good reason. I would say it would be an indictment on our democracy to have any other political party ever inquire into other political parties. We didn\u2019t do that with the National Party. That would be wrong, and we won\u2019t do it anywhere else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b1c0687d2d34919a8183778e00a1198\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Has she\u2014as she told Mike Hosking yesterday morning she would\u2014now sought \u201Ca bit more info\u201D regarding allegations about the Deputy Prime Minister? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f5c6503d52b49dabfc175afa372ae11\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, at that time, of course, all I\u2019d done is read newspaper reports, but it still doesn\u2019t change the fact that this is best dealt with\u2014as the leader of New Zealand First has already said\u2014by the Electoral Commission, with whom New Zealand First is actively working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022444012095cdc40518d714eff893ba4a2\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: So did she make any further inquiries? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d9b6ddd818f4e6fa47631f944e7db22\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve just responded in my last question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6b36e86910b49caa01c303aa1f1d701\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Has she had any direct conversations with her Deputy Prime Minister this week about the appropriateness and legality of his actions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e14020df0eb45a69e3b910800978a56\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I have conversations with the Deputy Prime Minister every other day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261d4c79cc87f4156ab5754e1a1ae47f3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. To be factual, has the Prime Minister heard any allegation that strictly concerns\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ca10dea70ae48c083af0dd1bf2a5de7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a point of order or a question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223836c2a1e9074f5e93a64786ac2225e9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec3eea2db574422b92ae768d63106da4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m sorry. I thought the member was calling for a point of order. If it\u2019s a supplementary question, he can have that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8fbb3cedd224a71bd4fad91dde21b11\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a supplementary question. To be factual, has the Prime Minister heard of any allegation that concerns the Deputy Prime Minister? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297a4e9471b6f4fb29139965655ae24ce\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No, obviously, in his role as Deputy Prime Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d3da767d51e44ddb1ea076a7377ace1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: There you are, sunshine. I thought you were a lawyer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eed63af249e465a9a9fcb47ca623c8a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The Deputy Prime Minister will stand, withdraw, and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225275d2639c4d498ab110a6e446af3c97\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise for saying that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e89893c2484341c6a00f94212b61ad52\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, and no one\u2019s ever suggested that of me before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022082d9cacfd364e4ab99bd56f62403b11\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on. Is that how you do it\u2014you put your own words on? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022992c26e2161b4c35bc60761270d55ad4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The proper wording\u2014\u201CI withdraw and apologise.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202437f5394464c378449f28144a502b8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d249868819204186b8fd454e71cfbf1b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd21260e00ea436e857e124b58e76c8a\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement yesterday that \u201CThe law is the law and it has no reservation or codicil such as \u2018the spirit of\u2019. It\u2019s either the law or it\u2019s not.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b7402c9d854b97a7aa184f0475beae\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be referring to questions in the House yesterday. I\u2019m sure that the Deputy Prime Minister, in speaking on my behalf, stands by all of those statements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d67ef77d25cb4f6b8759b58fcc646930\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think this might be a moment for you to rule on whether or not someone in the House speaking on behalf of the Prime Minister speaks as the Prime Minister or not. We have put on new territory that\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223769b0734e944874b77ff34819d8d3bd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I don\u2019t think we\u2019re on new territory at all. I think we\u2019re on some pretty standard territory, and I think the Prime Minister will now answer the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226640dcd9d02c48659fae8c4f6c8cfe70\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The law is patently the law, and there\u2019s no such thing as pretty legal, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8901ac1b619432185ea9ddf0e86d5e3\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: So does she no longer believe that there\u2019s \u201Cthe spirit of the law\u201D, as she\u2019s previously said? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b935c38588cd4fc899998f892f05476f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by my view that there is a reason to look into foreign donations and foreign interference in this country. That is why we specifically asked the select committee to look into the issue. It would be wonderful if that select committee were able, with the support of National Party members, to report back on that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d74a869da22d4beb876cdc4ab2a1f717\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she have confidence that her Deputy Prime Minister has acted within the spirit of the law at all times? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022648f195de9fd42bb8feba81aeaf7e003\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, as I have clearly said, the issues at hand are being dealt with by the right agency\u2014that is, the Electoral Commission\u2014in the same way that the issues facing the Opposition are being dealt with independently by the right agency. I, again, point out that I didn\u2019t interfere or inquire into that member\u2019s matters, and I won\u2019t in this case either. That would not be appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022755e69d9faa349eb8d34a60db5e8088c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022aef6f0b20e45403bad3dfe7f0479c076\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aef6f0b20e45403bad3dfe7f0479c076\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all of his statements and actions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022702d649c23b845839cf52271c21f889b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022702d649c23b845839cf52271c21f889b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were made and undertaken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8ced3ae97cd4ae399d3c9a0cbcd0ad2\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How does he square his statement yesterday that a by M\u0101ori for M\u0101ori solution is not a characterisation of the Government\u2019s position in Ihum\u0101tao with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement in September that the Government is \u201Ctrying to find a by M\u0101ori for M\u0101ori solution to the issue.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294396f7628594241ac3c3ee095010b39\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: There was a longer statement that came before the by M\u0101ori for M\u0101ori statement that was in the question yesterday. I stand by my answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fef36af681340a5b5e381f5cc7d948b\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How does he interpret the Prime Minister\u2019s statement that the Government is trying to find a by M\u0101ori for M\u0101ori solution to the issue at Ihum\u0101tao? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f416b6626564f118ec35ceae8be1274\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think, as the member will be well aware, the K\u012Bngitanga movement came into this process working with the mana whenua. They, in turn, have asked the Government to take on a role in facilitating discussions, particularly with Fletcher\u2019s. That\u2019s the role that we are undertaking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf47f29e472f429990779c4f2ddf5cfe\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: When he\u2019s considering a by M\u0101ori for M\u0101ori solution to this piece of land, where do the interests of the landowners and taxpayers fit in? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9620bb4bd6d4f2db093df0f1c4a57ba\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in the House yesterday, the principles with which the Government is approaching this issue are to ensure that we uphold the mana of the Treaty settlement process and that we understand the needs of mana whenua and the needs of Fletcher\u2019s as the owners of the land, and at all times, I have the taxpayers\u2019 interests in mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2493331ae004997881d62d335f23018\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: When he said yesterday that Fletcher\u2019s had \u201Cin fact asked us to be able to help them facilitate an enduring solution.\u201D, was that request from Fletcher\u2019s made before or after the Prime Minister vowed that no building would take place in Ihum\u0101tao? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273f7dc92be5846ae957d6def9b647767\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t believe that\u2019s an accurate description of what the Prime Minister said. On 26 July, the Prime Minister helped ensure that we got the parties together. Fletcher\u2019s are one of those parties. They got in contact with me to help with some facilitation issues early on, and they continue to work with us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236c80eed6ad04bb183602e0500e044ad\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Regarding his statement in a speech to the Debt Capital Markets Summit in August last year \u201CWe continue to sit near or at the top of Transparency International\u2019s ratings for the absence of corruption.\u201D, how does he think his Government is improving New Zealand\u2019s reputation for transparency and an absence of corruption? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d810e2456ea456d9b8ce4b8ab2e1549\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Every single day, the actions that this Government undertakes enhances New Zealand\u2019s reputation in that regard, and I would say that the latest rankings for things like ease of doing business in New Zealand fulfil that, as do the Transparency International rankings as well. This Government prides itself on the approaches that we take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ca724a910074cb5a805f91575aee3e3\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement in an urgent debate relating to the Provincial Growth Fund that \u201Cthe role that I have in this particular set of circumstances\u2014which is the role I take, I might add, in most of the discussions about the Provincial Growth Fund\u2014which is to ensure that issues like governance and the overall commercial arrangements that surround a project are ones that we can be satisfied with.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5940c0de0dd42efa0f6ab7bbd21f6ab\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I stand by that statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239e76f927ffc45b585033b72fb3d8ac7\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealanders be sure that Ministers making decisions allocating sums from the Provincial Growth Fund don\u2019t have undeclared conflicts of interest? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6c9f00b21764e9e916430d6100ccef9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: All Ministers understand their roles and, from time to time, they will declare conflicts of interest and take advice about conflicts of interest. Ministers understand those roles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c97f9b23189844409f2bbc4b7d28cb23\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Is he absolutely sure that every potential conflict of interest has been declared by Ministers making decisions allocating sums from the Provincial Growth Fund? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cdb67ebf6b64feb8d64557cc88ba95a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That would be my expectation, but it\u2019s also not my responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224788e3864b584dc3be287ebb92c167c5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed579b5508fe46e2ac2dc1d93e24242a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed579b5508fe46e2ac2dc1d93e24242a\u0022\u003EJAN TINETTI (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What is the Government doing to promote vocational training and career options that help address New Zealand\u2019s skill needs? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7b57111b9bd44a387bdc9fc7d1d34c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7b57111b9bd44a387bdc9fc7d1d34c7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E More good news. The Government has put in place a range of measures to encourage more young Kiwis to take up trades and other vocational careers. This includes more gateway and trades academy places and initiatives to create stronger links between employers and the education system. Apprentices and trainees are also eligible for fees-free, making training much more affordable. In fact, the policy supports two years of industry training rather than one year for provider-based study, and since fees-free was introduced at the beginning of last year, 7,600 apprentices and trainees have benefited from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263438b32f58747d3a19c03cd62bc7575\u0022\u003EJan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: Has fees-free helped with the cost of training within the building and construction sector, and, if so, how? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e0a1170224c41cda496e7e42a71dca8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, it has\u2014a very good question\u20143,900 apprentices and trainees enrolled with industry training organisations this year benefited from fees-free, and they were training in the building and construction - related fields. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ac87a0dde034cd0b18dd2e9b9444ffe\u0022\u003EJan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing to raise the profile of vocational training within senior secondary schools? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022128e28bad5154ceab1a451eca02d6293\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As of 20 November, 344 secondary schools have nominated students for the Prime Minister\u2019s Vocational Excellence Award, and 208 of those schools have already presented the $2,000 award at their prize-giving ceremonies. The Prime Minister\u2019s Vocational Excellence Award is helping to raise the status of trades and other vocational education and celebrate the success of young people already training in those areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2bcb56cd97244729652a67ee48ec520\u0022\u003EJan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: What else is the Government doing to strengthen the pipeline from secondary school into vocational training? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221626ecc9d6644519b3d6cf07f0c6ad2f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Schools currently have the opportunity to apply for a $3,000 grant to showcase trade and service industry careers and earn and learn opportunities in intermediate and secondary schools, including families, wh\u0101nau, and educators. Funding is also available to run events like the SpeedMeets, where employers get to meet with a range of students who might be interested in their industries and discuss the range of options that are available to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc6b5d8ac9b14f73936b4665c7d22d69\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Regional Economic Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022b01471b151e34829851492d48e744de5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b01471b151e34829851492d48e744de5\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Regional Economic Development: When did he become aware of N.Z. Future Forest Products Ltd\u2019s application to the Provincial Growth Fund, and what prompted him to get Cabinet Office advice relating to a potential conflict of interest? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00228e69e752194546928f368a7c765a4a50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e69e752194546928f368a7c765a4a50\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Attorney-General)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Regional Economic Development: I have known about Mr David Henry and Brian Henry\u2019s wood processing ambitions for several years. I first declared my association with Brian Henry as a potential conflict with the Cabinet Office in 2017, after becoming a Minister. Upon returning from a personal holiday in October 2019, I was informed by my office of an application involving Brian and David Henry that was soon to come to the regional economic development Ministers for consideration. On that same day\u201414 October\u2014I wrote to the Cabinet Office declaring this conflict and recusing myself from any decisions about it. The decision by other Ministers to decline the application in accordance with the recommendation of the provincial development unit thereafter occurred on 7 November 2019. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4860a7bc90a4290926dfcbebc46c672\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you to the Minister for that very informative reply, but the first part of the question is quite important, which was about when he became aware of the N.Z. Future Forest Products\u2019 application to the Provincial Growth Fund. There was, I think, a reference to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227053573acde84984bb1869c65126a039\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: He told you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd23041d4ddc4c578cad73d4cbbe182c\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. There was a reference to an awareness of Mr Henry\u2019s ambitions for a number of years, but not specifically about the application. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225acec47d53aa4cc9b09097e76c7978b2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think there was a date given, but can we just have it reinforced that that was the date the Minister became aware of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c12140ef548b47918a583b4632cb6bed\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the relevant part there was \u201CI first \u2026 declared my association with Brian Henry as [giving rise to] a potential conflict with the Cabinet Office in 2017, after becoming a Minister.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed7a6e857427456e9b802d0b8e87219b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that doesn\u2019t address the question, and I think the second part of the answer may have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae59346e475e4fbbb20c53222f997ecd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: In respect of the first date\u2014that he was aware that there was an application coming for consideration by Ministers\u2014it was on 14 October. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfd203b2942e4f41a195866c81ac3f7c\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware of whether he was the only Minister or Parliamentary Under-Secretary to declare a conflict of interest in relation to the application for provincial growth funding, and if there is another Minister or Parliamentary Under-Secretary who has declared a conflict, who is it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222adf796e5bf14256a52cf532d91b102b\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister has no responsibility for that matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff3a8b8983a54bcfbdd0c0898fa6b6ab\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, the Minister surely has responsibility for awareness of that fact. The Deputy Prime Minister, answering on behalf of the Prime Minister yesterday, made reference in two supplementary questions to more than one Minister declaring a conflict in relation to the applications. So I think it\u2019s well within the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e43930006d8473db33d86f5c4d25909\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I think that is a responsibility of the Prime Minister. Matters to do with conflict and awareness of that are a matter for her department for advice and for the Cabinet Office, for which some might say \u201CThank goodness Mr Jones doesn\u2019t have responsibility.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226349292c98fb412982133d4f38e6babb\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We seek leave for an urgent question to be asked now of the Prime Minister on the matter you\u2019ve just suggested is her responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d0f72684d2741b5af110e5421505027\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The normal approach for an urgent question is very well set out in the papers, and the member has until the end of question time to fulfil that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f93928b54784195b14a01b80e4da49c\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve sought leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022733f9c4185594ba794137390325d80ea\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there is no question\u2014I mean, you can\u2019t seek leave to ask a non-existent question. If the member gets the question in in the appropriate way, it will be properly considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7684f2405714d0b850b36e2dd8324e5\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to ask the Prime Minister the question: was there other Ministers or Parliamentary Under-Secretaries\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222821a47350444538acfd8ae8ff7b33df\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CWere there other Ministers\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a16befa218f4020b4d92f07675139da\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014were there\u2014who declared a conflict of interest in this matter? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d826c29ff42412b9322c2be2f8b51f5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That matter is a question of leave. Is there any objection to that process? No, there\u2019s not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e8d3ebb7fbd4934a36f1a06ddcfe2f0\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: To the Prime Minister: were there other Ministers or Parliamentary Under-Secretaries who declared a conflict of interest in the matter being discussed, as mentioned by the acting Prime Minister yesterday? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eaf07bf2ff04a93aee68025bc74c940\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will well know through questions that are being asked through written questions and through the House, Ministers with decision-making power who have conflicts of interest transfer that decision-making power, as is appropriate. Any other Ministers, of course, I would just expect to deal with the Cabinet Manual responsibilities in declaring conflicts of interest in the appropriate manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adfb77cabf3f44cb8c7fcf36eb5db181\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That was an outline of process, not an answer to the question. The question was: were there other Ministers or Parliamentary Under-Secretaries? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4c3346e8b3346288de088493fa20879\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the Prime Minister\u2014leave having been given\u2014should address that. It might be that the Prime Minister is not aware of anyone else who did it, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ca02e6fe7da4c2ba57b2e3158955a4c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: To the best of my knowledge, the only Minister with a conflict of interest transferred decision making to another Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e74f9371d904bd9a56edd0bda43ce90\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The member wants to go back now? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc4462c01abc4456b38e0a41a12972ac\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that was a sort of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af1620874b8b4e1ea50c987b58f3c22a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member want to continue the previous question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022795a4004320741e18cd46434921605c0\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s right. That was a sort of interregnum, right? We\u2019re still on the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220e0ab3acb3047ec9513b1cb35031992\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It was an extra. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235ce180458e84d148d3a67937385d912\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a novel approach, but I\u2019m being exceptionally flexible with the Opposition today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b865dc5b397243b7b8024cc9653b7173\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you, Mr Speaker. Did he advocate to decision-making Ministers about the merits or otherwise of N.Z. Future Forest Products Ltd\u2019s application to the Provincial Growth Fund? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac5f48fa9e8548bcb16212dd143b9395\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Further, in preparation for this question, I also inquired whether the Minister had any discussions with the provincial development unit regarding the application, and I can also confirm that the Minister had none of them, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255e709205bad42bab51932b1d703835c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the request for the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) to conduct an investigation would mean the SFO would have to be investigating into why the application failed\u2014surely a comedic outcome? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e62b806128894a5395276d21cf5ee1fa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That may or may not be an appropriate question for a Minister with responsibility for the SFO\u2014[Interruption]\u2014but it is certainly\u2014[Interruption] Oh, for goodness\u2019 sake! But it is certainly not a responsibility of Mr Jones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225040f2e05d1344c88855cec1c66d9627\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think, on reflection, that question raises quite a concern, because the Deputy Prime Minister has just suggested that there has been a request for a Serious Fraud Office investigation into this matter. Now, if that\u2019s the case, then it\u2019s not known to us, and I think it should be known to the House. So can we get a clarification on that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fe4709ce4394d238a9fe4d79a268ed6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think some of us just need to read the paper, but Mr\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ed82d3a0fb34374bcb8ca1d6bc8694d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. The person that suggested that was Mr Bishop himself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c7024c380244427812b65bcda439722\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I did not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294d1aeafba514eebaa2ed4bd7cace832\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220683899362a4edc8f6184429eb21ac2\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Completely wrong\u2014completely wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253c6eccfc5744e489327a73a92ac7f7d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Showing how dumb you are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9bdbffbc9f646f9a58656143538b651\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Completely wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9b51b57a64f48a487b56215bdc5c806\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Mr Bishop has made it clear to the House that he has made no such request, and that is the end of the matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe52dbe7ba704c1c99f5a2ca9af7ecd9\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Did someone say to him that there may be a potential conflict of interest in him considering the application from Future Forest Products Ltd; if so, who was that person? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227766e114d3bd48cc9486d5c37080ab06\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in the primary answer, the Minister, or I\u2014speaking on behalf of him\u2014was aware from the start of our term in Government that the potential for a conflict of interest arose, which was why notice was given for that in 2017. I further said that when I returned from holiday on 14 October, my office advised me that an application was pending and that that meant that there was perhaps a real conflict of interest. That was declared, I recused myself from the decision, and the decision was taken thereafter by other Ministers, who turned the application down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235652d8d5b6e47e48746fa7a843007a4\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Did officials recommend to the regional economic development Ministers considering the Future Forest Products\u2019 application that the company should receive funding? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213d270bf18f04203a49a80213b4b1341\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister answering the question is not actually David Parker; it is Shane Jones. David Parker is answering on his behalf, and it\u2019s very clear that the Minister has recused himself from consideration of the matter. He, therefore, cannot answer the question about what advice the Ministers who did make the decision received. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244a70a89fc7342779c502ac4df4a475c\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, the Minister has recused himself\u2014as I understand it, based on Dr David Clark\u2019s answers yesterday and written questions\u2014from considering the application to the Provincial Growth Fund, but he still has responsibility for the advice provided by officials to the wider regional economic development Ministers\u2019 meeting. It\u2019s true that Mr Jones recused himself from that meeting, but he must still have advice for the provincial development unit\u2019s recommendations to that committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220516301ee12343669ae62da90c902463\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, OK. I don\u2019t want to litigate a question by a way of point of order, but I think that the Minister answering on behalf of Mr Jones had already indicated, by way of his research, something which might help us clear up this point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d85b86fe8309457fa02557852057151f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in response to an earlier question, in preparation for question time on behalf of the Minister, I did inquire whether the Minister had any discussions with the provincial development unit regarding the application, and I repeat that I can advise the House that he had none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225580b8ebcb3d43a79894e5799a903726\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right. So I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b540340ee5e641cbb8d22cdfb6a0d7ba\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Mr\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a080d26d4e65482d833a5fad170e3ac9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, is this to the point of order, or what are we doing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222943488ef1c84359855b9177869088ed\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s just a point of order to point out that that doesn\u2019t address or answer the question, which is about what the officials\u2019 recommendation to the ministerial group was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220248ddd5fe40443b90f6788c4818d918\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, I think we\u2019ve dealt with that as well. I think there\u2019s a basic problem here, sometimes, with members not listening to answers. I mean, I heard the Minister acting on behalf of Mr Jones say that the officials recommended that it not be approved. Is that\u2014did I hear that correctly? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263fa775187194575a93ef0abd23d6304\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2050615e99447e181cdf35a5f4fba48\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s the end of it, really, isn\u2019t it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253ca58b284184e13924a2515e854532e\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware of why Dr David Clark said yesterday in question time, in relation to this matter, that he declined the Provincial Growth Fund application when, in reality, it was declined by the regional economic development Ministers\u2019 group? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226541d62410df41b2b0a8c94092407e65\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister has declared a conflict of interest. He is not responsible for the answers given by Dr David Clark, who does have ministerial responsibility. The Minister now answering the question does not have responsibility for that. He\u2019s recused himself from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c31829c8a9b4f29b8b0871f1098d5ee\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think we might\u2014I mean, the member\u2019s absolutely right. I mean, it is, again\u2014as I\u2019ve now said, I think, for about the fourth time this week\u2014sometimes really important that people listen to the answers if they want to stay within the bounds of order. Where there are some relatively complicated matters which go to the ethics and integrity of Ministers, I think I am pretty flexible in allowing appropriate questions to be asked, but where it\u2019s been made clear that Ministers were not involved in decisions and not involved in meetings, they can\u2019t be asked about why those decisions were made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7c69e3c67f64f7c959ec556acee5629\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. One of the problems that we face here is that\u2014firstly, can I just concede that you are right. It is an important issue. It is a complex issue. There is potential for significant reputational damage if it is perceived in a particular way. But the House is not helped in trying to clarify matters by successive Ministers acting on behalf of a Minister. Now, I accept that in this case, matters pertaining to the decision were transferred to another Minister\u2014that\u2019s fine. But when the other Minister is further transferring responsibility for answering questions on a particular day to another Minister again, then I think it\u2019s very hard to keep a consistency on who said what. The point that was just made by Mr Bishop was that Dr David Clark yesterday, presumably acting as the Minister to whom the responsibility was transferred, said that he made the decision. Now, asking the Minister David Parker today, answering, presumably, on behalf of Dr Clark, the same question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac3b9f4bac9b4bb7937bca224266e6d8\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s answering on behalf of Shane Jones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcb5be8b61f44b85b951438acd8fa315\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we get a different answer. Now, that\u2019s not reasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a834811ad3649e4bed8d15e41503845\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I think I\u2019m ready to deal with it, and I don\u2019t think I need the help of the Minister of Finance. I think it was clear to all of the House yesterday that the request went to a group of Ministers which Dr Clark was a member of and that group was the group responsible for turning it down, and that Mr Jones was not part of that. If members want to look at Speaker\u2019s ruling 156/3, they\u2019ll be able to work out why Mr Jones has no responsibility for Dr Clark. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022217d7f5fa3e3459e91fc54b2ea388f58\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2ced8500f77457cafda6302d3685ccb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2ced8500f77457cafda6302d3685ccb\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government\u2019s policies? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00227f68403de0f6402eb8a5b0947c4be9b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f68403de0f6402eb8a5b0947c4be9b1\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and while there are so many to choose from, I\u2019m going to particularly single out the Government\u2019s Families Package today, which, it was confirmed today, has seen 1 million New Zealanders warmed by the winter energy payment, 36,000 families bank the Best Start payment in the first year, and 6,000 more families receive the family tax credit. This shows that we are focused particularly on those families who need support the most and we are making a difference on significant long-term challenges like child poverty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa18c21eda3e4aa0b5258428cadba2c7\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her Government\u2019s policy, as expressed in the Arms Legislation Bill, that a person who provides incorrect information to the proposed register, such as by filling out a form wrong or failing to provide correct information when asked, is liable for a $10,000 fine or two years\u2019 imprisonment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe4a2fc83ef04ae4ba68babeae8a8b44\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by the action we\u2019re taking around gun legislation and reform. The member will know there are two parts to that. The first is the buy-back, which has had a significant impact: 38,000 prohibited and unlawful firearms have been handed in as a result, and 142,000 prohibited parts. The second tranche, of course, relates to our wider system and includes bringing in a registry. That\u2019s a part of our system that we are now consulting widely on and giving the public full say over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022629e214c5b3f4385bcd5d8ebad29a749\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Could a person accused of entering incorrect information into the proposed firearm register use as a defence that, actually, their firearm was registered through a foundation and anybody claiming otherwise was psycho? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f7e6dfcb56e4d11aba2cb8f6493fcc0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I think the member is asking for legal advice, which is something he will ask for elsewhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022517449ba106b44c49b32b635c8b7a6a2\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m asking about the Government\u2019s policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6685cad55ab44c3adb2d346ee922191\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s not what the member said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221567c82751864ecfb81763036f1dfe7e\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is what I said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b98968908d5f42709c4d4e7aaf16bab7\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Has she received an update on the impact of the Government\u2019s Families Package on the wellbeing of children? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022503445b070a143859e8a0f2796765a68\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, indeed. As I pointed out, we\u2019ve already seen a huge number of families benefit, but, in particular, this demonstrates that we are on track to lift between 50,000 and 74,000 children out of poverty. We are also a House that, as members will recall, voted in favour of a child poverty reduction Act, which only a handful of countries in the world have. It is still disappointing to me that I cannot say that that was with unanimous support. I do say to Mr Seymour, I would welcome his support of future action around reducing child poverty in Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4c7741ae4e948dcb03b21a0ea164f41\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Am I to take it that any question around how the Government intends its laws to work could be interpreted as requesting legal advice? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4c912b0af6240c98b0414d23c1318bf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, and Standing Order 23 also applies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022052e03afced14137a2e7e92799e19660\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Social Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u00224778280ea92b4d759e5a5306ddef8333\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224778280ea92b4d759e5a5306ddef8333\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A-SUISUIKI (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: What reports has she seen on the Government\u2019s Families Package? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa6cdd3f1d864779afa4f5a0b6c1c18c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa6cdd3f1d864779afa4f5a0b6c1c18c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E The Families Package monitoring reports monitoring the Government\u2019s Families Package were publicly released today. The $5.5 billion Families Package was announced within the Government\u2019s first 100 days and kicked in on 1 July last year. The Families Package monitoring report shows that working New Zealanders with children are getting more support from this Government and parents on benefit are getting more support from this Government. It shows that senior citizens are getting more support from this Government. It shows that M\u0101ori are getting more support from this Government. We are on track to lift 50,000 to 74,000 children out of poverty and to ensure that New Zealand really is the best place in the world to be a child. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227661878f0835491cbf46b3c7cc260759\u0022\u003EAnahila Kanongata\u2019a-Suisuiki\u003C/span\u003E: Just how much of a difference has the Families Package made to low and middle income New Zealanders? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281556628b48c44559098fbfee570a117\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: The $5.5 billion Families Package puts more money in the pockets of New Zealanders that need it the most and gives targeted support by boosting incomes with the Working for Families tax credits: 6,000 more families received the family tax credit\u2014220,600 in total\u2014and they got more money, taking the pressure off for families in their child\u2019s early years, with the Best Start payment, which is $60 per week. We increased paid parental leave to 26 weeks so that parents have more time to bond with their babies. We\u2019re helping older New Zealanders and people on a main benefit to heat their homes with the winter energy payment, people receiving the accommodation supplement got, on average, an increase from $71 to $98 a week, and we increased the rate of orphans benefit, unsupported child\u2019s benefit, and foster care allowance because we value the people that are caring for our children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad9fe09c18ef45bfa594c7a058636a21\u0022\u003EAnahila Kanongata\u2019a-Suisuiki\u003C/span\u003E: How has the Families Package supported people on benefits? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeca80dec28443c1aa49e877eab48769\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Parents on benefit receiving family tax credits from the Ministry of Social Development have seen an average increase of $41 per week. This is the largest increase since Working for Families began in 2005. On top of this, people on main benefits, along with superannuitants, receive the winter energy payment, which has helped over 1 million New Zealanders keep warm in winter. The Families Package is just part of the Government\u2019s plan to lift the wellbeing of all New Zealanders, including those in the welfare system. We have committed to indexing benefits to wages. We repealed section 192, increased abatement thresholds, and funded an extra 263 work-focused case managers to get people into sustainable work. We\u2019ve made it free for every child under 14 to go to the doctor, and increased school funding so parents don\u2019t have to pay for school donations, which will help 416,000 families. By the time the Families Package is rolled out in 2020-21, 385,000 families with children will be better off by an average of $75 per week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226eaed099974c4f41b4646b39f07c9383\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3332a4a4333405bb3b526343780c007\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3332a4a4333405bb3b526343780c007\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: How many donations over $15,000 were disclosed to the Electoral Commission in the 2017 electoral returns, and, of these, how many were disclosed by each political party? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022eaff531a50e84a49ab85cc65d80dec11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eaff531a50e84a49ab85cc65d80dec11\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that a total of 124 party donations were made at the 2017 general election above the $15,000 threshold. This includes 59 donations to the National Party, 28 to the Labour Party, 12 to the Green Party, and seven to ACT. I should point out that all of this information is available on elections.nz. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e126d5ff6a4b479d87c9096e2519670b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that New Zealand First declared no donations above the threshold? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c248380f74b485fb53945f231ad1868\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not responsible for New Zealand First. I am accountable to the House for the work of the Electoral Commission, and the advice I\u2019ve had from the Electoral Commission\u2014indeed, from their website\u2014is as I have already adumbrated in my previous answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eb99fc2f4794b428576150cf0f96ca2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is he satisfied that the law and regulations of political donation is working as intended when, at the 2017 election, the party that was pivotal to the election outcome was able to avoid over $500,000 of donations through a foundation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7b04202a2de471b891d46ea1000e6c2\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not aware of any discrepancies that have led to law enforcement action. I am, however, aware of one active law enforcement investigation in relation to the Electoral Act. That is a complaint to the Serious Fraud Office about the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225269a800db0f4bf680a695429a834695\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: So, in respect to that last answer, was a $100,000 donation to the National Party disclosed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221892a78251234c6eb6a2f798028257f9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question\u2019s very specifically about the 2017 electoral returns\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022272d85c6be874137a5ea690580e59487\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! All round\u2014that\u2019s enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f92deba41d24ffd81d20850b82ec791\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve been very strict that supplementary questions need to be within the scope of the primary question. The primary question was about the 2017 general election. The issues the member refers to were well after that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa9f1e6b8ef74c66b4eeb5a66ee448b7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member might be more aware of the specific detail of that and the timing of that donation than I am, and if I can have an assurance from the member that the donation that was so\u2014I\u2019m trying to think of the right word\u2014received and disguised happened after the 2017 election\u2014[Interruption] Order! [Interruption] Well, I\u2019m being asked to rule something out, and I need a level of assurance before I do that that I can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226956f805e26f4e3298fee6e52728637d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I have no knowledge other than that which is in the public arena, and the information in the public arena is quite clearly that it was not associated with the 2017 general election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022292a1a549f564d84a60d7326619e0328\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All right, I accept the member\u2019s word. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaa9e53d23234de2a20bd6e7ab602888\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he have any concerns in respect of the reports that anonymous donations at the 2017 election of $342,000, or 85 percent of them, were from one party and were more than 10 times the amount for any other party? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022459a546c874d4ed6bd147ae198d952ad\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I rely\u2014as indeed this House does and the country does\u2014on the Electoral Commission, which is the independent body charged with overseeing and applying and enforcing our electoral regulations. The last thing we want is politicians interfering in that process. I would no sooner do that as Minister of Justice than I would see the Minister of Police interfering in a Serious Fraud Office investigation into the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022440b7f5f2cf84c2083362a087d97f12f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of the distinction between anonymous donations, and donations that are not required, because they are below a certain limit, to be declared? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227518c34cfa0d4d0980999ba5b5ded8b9\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The term \u201Canonymous donation\u201D has two applications. One is where they don\u2019t meet a disclosure threshold, and may well be known to the party but are not required to be disclosed in accordance with the disclosure requirements of the Electoral Act. The other definition is that they are genuinely anonymous in that the recipient doesn\u2019t know the origin of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e1e533ff67847b7a11bf279c9ba4923\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he share the concerns of Professor Andrew Geddis that the lack of disclosure of electoral donations at election 2017 by the party that was pivotal to the election outcome is a serious risk to New Zealand\u2019s reputation as the second-least corrupt country in the world? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab011f5702d5484bb7171f126429c70b\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I would be concerned about anybody, including a law professor, who made conclusions without knowing what the facts were and tried to engender a public debate about something that is properly the province of our independent Electoral Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227edd6ebc3db04371a5e84361840c8556\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government believe that New Zealanders have a right to know who were the major financial backers of the party that was pivotal to the outcome of the 2017 election and which everybody\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269badcc822d3415a939f922657055392\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It would be clear, and it has been for some time, that these questions verge on a responsibility that\u2019s not in the province of the Minister answering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226482bcfa0514ec7a30706b82afc7f8f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247cc0cbebd61468c953f6f79c57702f1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I think in this case what I am going to ask the member asking the question is to ask a straight question without the phrase of embellishment in the middle of it, because I think the responsibility for the Act and the responsibility to this House for the work of the Electoral Commission is a responsibility of this Minister. Please ask the question again, without the embellishment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6293e4ecd32416285c7e7dc9e7337a8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government, as a matter of policy, believe that New Zealanders have a right to know who are the major financial donors and backers of the parties in Government and those that have been pivotal to the outcome of election 2017? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f7b0560e20d484c9330709cdc47736c\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I think the public has a right to know, in accordance with the obligations on political parties in the Electoral Act, who is financing them, and at the moment there is serious doubt about who has backed the National Party, which is why they\u2019re the subject of a Serious Fraud Office complaint. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281b2e3885b1b4c7ab7094575c6712651\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the advice from the Parliamentary Library provided both yesterday and today on both anonymous and declared donations to the Electoral Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c04d0d130b844f91af1237ff6bfbf160\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I will put it to the House because it\u2019s a rather novel seeking of the leave. Is there any\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff0c621480e148e88fe98478ba14fc4f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c64a493d22364244a5ec30190af6bc0d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no. I am going to put it. Is there any objection\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7963ae0e3b54174a5a235fd32a898ec\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You have inferred that the information is not publicly available, when I can assure the Speaker that it is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208ad348df7204da4997e3ca89baab793\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am going to put it to the House on the basis that the information that is contained in the advice from the Parliamentary Library is not otherwise publicly available, and we\u2019ll see whether the House wants to see it or not. Is there any objection to those two pieces of advice being tabled? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5b40aced43b40b9a7b3c5901cd06443\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was going to seek leave to be able to give a legal explanation to Mr Smith about what the law says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a64daf31bde642ef88d876f6275181da\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that was not helpful. It was designed to disrupt, and I\u2019m not going to put it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002210de602f38bd498ea9b7b819251cff06\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Social Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022b047545bbdcc4843bc17acc87cafc7da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b047545bbdcc4843bc17acc87cafc7da\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: Does she stand by the numbers contained in her ministry\u2019s publications? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002204c0bfda3b71443f901190a0874120e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204c0bfda3b71443f901190a0874120e1\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly the ministry\u2019s publications released today, the Families Package monitoring reports. It shows that the Government\u2019s $5.5 billion Families Package has put more money into the pockets of New Zealanders that needed it the most. Given that we\u2019ve traversed all of the different initiatives and the number of New Zealanders that have been touched by the Families Package, I won\u2019t go into the detail again, but what I will say is that we are on track to lift 50,000 to 74,000 children out of poverty, and I acknowledge our Prime Minister in leading the charge with respect to reducing child poverty in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d3d620e33df4db8b63b89e1eabb30a7\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: How many more children are in benefit-dependent homes since that Government took office? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ae2bd1b58b2482c9c77f1c476ef712c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have the numbers for that in front of me. If she would like\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294c1ba7ac29a403599d2523008ebaa2c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member will resume her seat. If members are going to shout down a Minister when she\u2019s asked a supplementary which is a very specific supplementary from a general question, it\u2019s not going to continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269d7b3729aa64823b06b186264c22bae\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that the numbers provide an important context, and, if so, why are the numbers missing from the graphs on page 10 of the Families Package Monitoring Report, that was published today? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220432e966709446159532f913104e60c6\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I will never have all the figures to specific questions that that member might like to ask in the House, particularly when the primary question is general. However, any specific question that she\u2019d like to put in writing, she is more than welcome to do so. I do think that that member is fully aware that the next update with respect to the number of children in New Zealand living in poverty that we can expect is in February, and we\u2019ve made very clear that that is when we can expect that report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a3b68febef34622991d5c446c66a8f1\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What is the total budget for social development? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282560fbcdfbd4606abbc43603da6bfb2\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I think in the last Budget it was around $27 billion, and a large proportion of that, I do want to remind the House, is actually superannuation. So despite the fact that that side of the House likes to refer to benefit numbers and beneficiaries in a negative way with respect to the spend that comes out of Vote Social Development, we do need to keep in mind that, actually, the vast majority goes towards a universal superannuation scheme that I think all of us, as New Zealanders, are very proud of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d29f7003248f4033ad41b6b87ff6d31d\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Is the rushed release of this Families Package report that doesn\u2019t include all the numbers\u2014isn\u2019t that just a desperate attempt to deflect from the criticism this Government has received from the Child Poverty Action Group that the numbers prove this Government\u2019s not delivering? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa40d3c94f824f2d981d996b92b5ed21\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: This is not a rushed release, nor did I push the Ministry of Social Development to bring these figures to me. The timing is such that I was able to release it this week. The member is fully aware that the numbers with regards to children living in poverty in this country and experiencing hardship will be released in February, and I will say that I\u2019m really proud of what this Government decided to prioritise when we first came into Government. I do need to remind this House that the alternative from that side of the House was tax cuts that would have seen $400 million going to the top 10 percent of income earners in this country, and, actually, we don\u2019t think anyone in this House needs an additional $1,000 a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d99d9486bc0d4f89bc1a8fc013af8b17\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Agriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022cacfd7d648dc49bfb5d1e554ae836c07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cacfd7d648dc49bfb5d1e554ae836c07\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: What actions is the Government taking to help farmers in financial distress? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00224a96c507023143648756914f64b4972c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a96c507023143648756914f64b4972c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the member for his question. We\u2019ve worked closely with our coalition partners, especially in New Zealand First, to develop the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2). We\u2019re focused on helping farmers get more value for their work, and although they are seeing record commodity prices at present, we\u2019re committed to ensuring there is a safety net for them and their families should they get into financial strife. Beyond the farm debt scheme, we\u2019ve more than doubled funding for rural support trusts. We\u2019re working with farmers at catchment level to help them get most from their land while protecting the environment. There\u2019ll be more announcements about that. We are doing a huge amount to help the farmers and the farming sector across this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c1c1b6b26a14ba0a48a021097139abe\u0022\u003EMark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2) required at a time when our farmers and growers are receiving record prices? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c987b3c33abb451f90e98cc7741121d7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Farm debt has climbed over the past 20 years to now be at more than $62 billion. This bill has been talked about for a long time and, finally, a Government has taken action on this. We know that farming is vital for New Zealand\u2019s growth and wellbeing, accounting for $46.4 billion in exports last year. We know farmers are especially vulnerable to business downturns as a result of conditions that are often outside their control: the weather, market price volatility, pests and diseases\u2014things like Mycoplasma bovis. We\u2019re taking a measured approach, and by providing this mediation safety net, we\u2019re making sure farmers and their families have dignity when they\u2019re in times of financial stress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245708cc9af6c494baea26d947b222426\u0022\u003EMark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: What support have you seen for the farm debt mediation scheme? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215b59bd899614e4aa9e9e9e7fa568017\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: There has been widespread support for the scheme from farmers, from the industry organisations, from the banks themselves, and even from the National Party. There are people like Janette Walker, who have seen first-hand the effects of farmers getting into financial difficulty and who have said how much this scheme will mean to them, because it creates a clear path for farmers and it offers them protections at a terribly stressful time. I\u2019d encourage people to listen to the podcast on Radio New Zealand to get an insight into what can happen at a time of foreclosure by a bank. People like the sharemilkers section of Federated Farmers\u2014they support the farm debt mediation scheme, and, as I said, the banks do as well. This is a good piece of legislation. I thank New Zealand First for their initiative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229805dc55ccc84ab8b67ad0c646f1fba0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Child Poverty Reduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u0022b232ab30b2794947842a3d93218c7fa9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b232ab30b2794947842a3d93218c7fa9\u0022\u003EHon ALFRED NGARO (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Child Poverty Reduction: Does she have confidence in her ability to deliver on her child poverty reduction targets? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022921d9e1d8fb04494aefeab9aeab4e1bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022921d9e1d8fb04494aefeab9aeab4e1bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Minister for Child Poverty Reduction):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fabf3a8f9ea4b5e9ad2aca59785ef32\u0022\u003EHon Alfred Ngaro\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that the report out today does not allow us to say what difference the Families Package made directly to child poverty, children\u2019s outcomes, and other measures of wellbeing, and, if so, will she stop claiming that it does? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200288e02265a4e3fb14a5d80702f4c3c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Any one of the four questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbfb9f85d48c4963a70e72068044b201\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member will well recall from the debate around the Child Poverty Reduction Bill that one of the issues this House has is that there is a lag in the measurement of all of our statistical data, and it is something that all of us in this House have had to grapple with, including the last Government. So we haven\u2019t been able to see the full impact through the survey work that\u2019s done. The partial impact of the Families Package will be illustrated in figures released by Stats New Zealand in February 2020. Till then, we\u2019re reliant on modelling by Treasury and, of course, then the stats around the uptake of the package. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022210fc744790746258ab7ea99d42e6c16\u0022\u003EHon Alfred Ngaro\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Children\u2019s Commissioner that the Government response to the Welfare Expert Advisory Group has been\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cinadequate\u201D and that the action has to follow words? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222edf2d6861bf427ca77cc1ea49465bde\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I do agree that action has to follow words, which is why in the last Budget we did what a Children\u2019s Commissioner has called one of the biggest things that you can do to make a difference to child poverty, and that was index benefits to wages. That came in in our last Budget. It will have a huge impact for families, and the Children\u2019s Commissioner themselves recognised that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f93ae6b7eaa478db7a8c145344d61d3\u0022\u003EHon Alfred Ngaro\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that the Child Poverty Action Group\u2019s criticism of the Government inaction is valid, given that seven of the nine child poverty indicator targets have got worse under her Government, and will this become just another broken promise? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222db830827c1a49eb80d8ef8aa014c85d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest the member may wish to exercise caution. I can only assume that the reference to the seven out of nine indicators would be the reference to the Child Poverty Reduction Act and the last data release, which substantively, actually, covered household incomes in late 2017. We don\u2019t have the full data under this Government\u2019s Families Package in changes we have made, but if the member wishes to criticise his own Government\u2019s record, he\u2019s obviously welcome to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f27694a95204e0aa5a4a458bd0334d5\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has she received in regard to the number of children likely to be lifted out of poverty as a result of the Government\u2019s Families Package? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c1118588fa446999ba4bad2898ea5e7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said, we\u2019re reliant on modelling that\u2019s being undertaken as a result of both our Families Package and the changes that were made in the last Budget, and that has suggested that we will lift between 50,000 and 74,000 children out of poverty. Because of the $5.5 billion package, that included paid parental leave and an increase to the family tax credit, which is the biggest jump we\u2019ve seen since 2005. It included the winter energy payment, which went to families who are on benefits, and it included the introduction of the Best Start payment, which targets children both in the first year but also extends around income testing to years two and three. Added to that\u2014and this isn\u2019t included in the modelling\u2014are the changes that we made removing the sole parent sanction; expanding employment support; of course, delivering extra public housing places; increases to the minimum wage; regulating housing quality; reducing the cost of GP visits; and, of course, the work we\u2019re doing on predatory lending. I am proud of this Government\u2019s legacy on addressing child poverty. It\u2019s one of the reasons so many of us are here, and I think we can stand proud on the action we\u2019ve taken in 24 short months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022281d1086c95948fdb945724d56380f31\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Revenue\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224b1308260aa543e58bd4f2a16eeb6caf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b1308260aa543e58bd4f2a16eeb6caf\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Revenue: What measures, if any, has he taken to ensure Inland Revenue is able to respond promptly to all incoming inquiries, specifically those received through Inland Revenue call centres? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002219fbdd9ad68547ecbc38ffccb077b077\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219fbdd9ad68547ecbc38ffccb077b077\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Attorney-General)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Revenue: I expect the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to ensure that phone calls are answered as efficiently as is practicable, correspondence is dealt with as efficiently as practicable, and customers calling into the Inland Revenue public counters are dealt with efficiently and fairly. I\u2019m advised that at peak times, some phone calls fall into a queue and are not dealt with, and I\u2019m also advised that Inland Revenue customers, since the latest upgrade, are increasingly transacting their business via the Inland Revenue website and personalised myIR pages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c69326654f144388ae88a5094bc7836d\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Is it acceptable to him that as of yesterday morning, the IRD website specified that there was a 75-minute wait time on its call centre, and today it says IRD is unable to accept calls at all? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b75fb95fd0d4d7caf191b9a0cab77ac\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not aware of those particular messages on the website. I am aware that the amount of call traffic to Inland Revenue tripled between January and I forget whether it was 7 March or May, I\u2019m sorry. As a consequence, numbers of calls went from some 200,000 to some 700,000. That was because the upgrade to the IRD system went live, which affected every taxpayer who was an employer or an employee, everyone who gets interest income, and every Working for Families recipient, and, as a consequence, the system has had difficulty answering all calls, notwithstanding the fact that call centre staff were increased by around 300 people to 900 people at peak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5d949084e5747fcab432945c27596c8\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: What reason has he been given for the 695,388 callers who have hung up after phoning the IRD call centre in the last four months to September 2019, as stated in his response to written question No. 36904? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224195ba493f8040da9935afce9304c243\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The reasons that I have been given were outlined in an earlier answer, in that the upgrade to the system, which is the largest IT project in the history of the State sector and which came in on time and under budget\u2014nevertheless, because some people were surprised by receiving unrequested refunds, the number of calls spiked from some 200,000 to 700,000. The number of calls that weren\u2019t answered peaked at the same period, and the number of calls that are unanswered has progressively decreased since. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203a4bf5bac5642bcb833bb9af7a0a2e9\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: How can 695,388 callers have their IRD issues addressed if he does not require IRD to deliver an accessible service? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecc1b579e3804382a4b2efb360c0c7d1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: People have a number of choices as to how they deal with that situation. Of course we would prefer that every call was answered; sometimes it cannot be. The choices that people have that they most commonly choose are either to call back, which many people do, or to use the web-based services. As I have said, the number of unanswered calls has decreased dramatically. In terms of whether it would have been practicable to properly train more than 900 call centre staff, the decision of those with operational responsibility was that 900 was the appropriate number. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea87faf488a54d8d8b794b9b5135d558\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002240b40d7969654239b9d4671b229c5d19\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022689b417de92e4330bbac70c31b2925fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022689b417de92e4330bbac70c31b2925fa\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a privilege to stand today in the general debate, particularly given the report that we received and were able to publicly release today around the way in which the Families Package has reached so many New Zealanders. We made a commitment right at the beginning that we wanted New Zealand to be the best place in the world to raise a child, and for everyone who is able to be earning, learning, caring, or volunteering. And the actions to date\u2014the report released to date\u2014on the progress with the Families Package prove that we are well on our way to achieving our objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EBy the time the Families Package is fully rolled out in 2020-21, 385,000 families with children will be better off by, on average, $75 per week. That is something that we are proud of on this side of the House. The Families Package is part of the Government\u2019s wider plan to lift the wellbeing of all New Zealanders. We have been engaged across Government to achieve this goal. We\u2019ve made it free for every child under the age of 14 to go to the doctor. We\u2019ve increased school funding so parents don\u2019t have to pay for school donations, which will help 416,000 families, I heard. We are building more State houses than any Governments since the 1970s, and, of course, we should be proud of that on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWhat we have seen with the Families Package is that it has boosted incomes across the country. We\u2019ve seen it with the roll-out of the Working for Families tax credit changes that we made. We\u2019ve seen it with respect to the Best Start payment that we\u2019ve introduced, increasing paid parental leave. We\u2019re helping older New Zealanders. We\u2019re helping New Zealanders who are on the main benefit keep their homes warm during the winter months with the winter energy payment. We\u2019ve seen increases to financial help for carers by increasing the rate of the orphans benefit, the unsupported child\u2019s benefit, and the foster care allowance, and we increased the accommodation supplement and benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe reports that were released today on the Families Package actually show that the modelling that we had when we put that Families Package into place was absolutely on the ball. More than one million New Zealanders have benefited from the winter energy payment, and can I say that\u2019s a lot of New Zealanders. When I\u2019m out and about, it\u2019s the number one thing that people come up to me about to thank this Government for. I heard too many stories of senior citizens who were staying in one bedroom in their house during the winter months, who were sometimes not even getting out of bed because they could not afford to heat their homes, and so we\u2019ve received a lot of positive feedback from superannuitants and also main beneficiaries on the difference that that has made for them and their families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThirty-six thousand families have banked the Best Start payment in the first year, and that doesn\u2019t even count the New Zealanders who may want to wait till the end of the tax year to actually claim that. The difference that has made to families with new babies is huge\u2014$60 goes a long way to helping towards those costs in the first years. It doesn\u2019t just show that we were willing to make an investment in low to middle income New Zealanders but it also shows that this Government is committed to families, that we do support New Zealanders who are raising children, that we do value children, and that we do value those early years. Six thousand more families received the family tax credit, and also the families getting family tax credits are getting more. As was said in the House today, this is the most significant lift in Working for Families and the family tax credit since 2005. So we\u2019re proud of that on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe saw the lifts to the accommodation supplement. That was necessary. We also saw the new clothing allowance for carers go to 13,500 carers. That is something we can be proud of. The main thing is, as I\u2019ve said earlier today in the House, and as our Prime Minister has said, we are on track to lift 50,000 to 74,000 children out of poverty, and that is an absolute objective that all of us should share\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00222b1b600e47b5440ebb561eb183eb8789\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b1b600e47b5440ebb561eb183eb8789\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022c16d5fa53ab9415d8648348bdc0b73b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c16d5fa53ab9415d8648348bdc0b73b7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E One of New Zealand\u2019s greatest strengths is our low level of corruption. We on this side of the House are proud that in 2017, New Zealand had the number one spot as the least corrupt country of nearly 200 in the world. This reputation must be jealously guarded, and that is why every one of us should be concerned about the revelations going on with New Zealand First. It is d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu of the events of 2008, but even more serious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EYou see, the 2017 election was unusual in that it was the first where the party with the most seats did not form the Government, and the party that was pivotal to that outcome was New Zealand First. The reports of it being in serious breach of our electoral laws cut to the bone of the integrity of our democracy. The public has a right to know who the financial backers are for the party that determined the outcome of the election and which is having a pivotal role in Government\u2019s decisions for our country every single day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s summarise the facts that we know. New Zealand First has a foundation headed up by its founding president, Doug Woolerton, and a political lobbyist and Winston Peters\u2019 personal lawyer Brian Henry. They\u2019re the only two trustees. We know the foundation received over $500,000 in secret donations. We also know the foundation loaned hundreds of thousands to New Zealand First and that in election 2017, it paid substantive electioneering costs like campaign offices, like websites, like campaign expenses and conference speakers. This is a rort with a capital \u201CR\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EBut it gets worse. We know that there are about 70 donations that were declared at the last election. Every party in this Parliament declared\u201423 from Labour, 19 from National. The only party not to declare a single donation was New Zealand First. Does anybody seriously believe that New Zealand First did not receive a single contribution of more than $15,000? Then we come to the issue of anonymous donations: 85 percent, $342,000, of anonymous donations was for New Zealand First, and that $340,000 is on top of the $500,000 being hidden through the foundation. We even have the president of New Zealand First and its treasurer resigning in recent weeks over moral issues of its finances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe should be in no doubt how serious this is. Our electoral law makes it a corrupt practice for political parties to organise their affairs to try and avoid disclosure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222519bb24a6314924b580ca8cc080aa50\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The member will resume his seat. I\u2019m going to refer the member to Speakers\u2019 ruling 28/1. I probably should\u2019ve done it earlier in his speech when he used the word corruption. It\u2019s a very good combination of Speakers\u2019 rulings that go back to Statham, reinforced by David Carter, former Speaker, and what it says, very clearly, is that members must not make veiled suggestions of corruption during the course of debate. The member will cease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f49d82e794c7443f8396522c3dff2d30\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Without wanting to challenge your ruling, Mr Speaker, I would point out that Speakers\u2019 ruling 28/1 refers to allegations of corruption by a member of another member, and I\u2019m not sure that it could be automatically inferred from the comments made by Dr Smith that that was what he was saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227949603528a34c05854a29a76f57052f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I took it very directly to be that, because he talked about the members who helped form the Government. It couldn\u2019t be anyone else\u2014couldn\u2019t be anyone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5ce539d47804b0dac2b12b3ed50c2b0\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022038771bd71fe4d5291ae2700aa7efbc0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If it\u2019s a matter of relitigation, I\u2019m not going to hear it. If the member has a new point of order, I will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223da7795b96544acd865f32f0313a3c93\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order is: is the sentence I used, \u201COur electoral law makes it a corrupt practice for political parties to organise their affairs to \u2026 avoid [such] disclosure\u201D\u2014is the Speaker saying that that is out of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206c5c2ee21fd44ada207a815d39e34c0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The answer, given what had happened before in the context: yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022839efeaaaed84568af98ed78659df279\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The stench of this whole sorry affair is doing huge reputational risk to the Government and to our country. The Deputy Prime Minister is in the thick of this mess, and far from the promise of being the most open and transparent Government, no one has been prepared to front up and answer the very real questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7c11cdd1550440e95a55d91e71a3f4c\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Lock him up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e39f52587a044596b1efa93d7860ef1a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve never seen anything as ugly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc5c8810cc204ce28453d924629b3b82\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! David Bennett will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212eda0b2817446a69ef2cf81af4eb81c\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246f90f404d884f68961348306013297f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will have slightly less time because I\u2019m not giving him time for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1a176c97fc24d6ab2ac7e3495d599f4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014as when a reporter asked a Minister a question\u2014to call them a psycho in areas of such important public interest. We have the Prime Minister ducking for cover. She is totally compromised. The only way she became Prime Minister was because of a political party that is now alleged of being involved in very serious, illegal election activity. National says these matters must be independently and thoroughly investigated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022365f884bb867484784af67d341bd3442\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022365f884bb867484784af67d341bd3442\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. On a very different note, I suspect that we all in this House, along with most other New Zealanders, know what it\u2019s like to be ignored, left out, or bullied for being different. I have a very vivid memory of myself sitting under a tree, crying by myself after being bullied as a kid. I also have really clear memories of seeing other kids being bullied for being different and really wanting to do whatever I could not to be like them so that I could protect myself from further bullying. That was one of the reasons that, for me, it took me so long to come out as a lesbian, even to myself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAfter, first, invisibility and then years of public debate about lesbians and gays being mentally unwell, a threat to children, and a danger to our society, I couldn\u2019t even begin to imagine that I might be one of them. This took a toll, not just in my slow coming into myself and all the acting out that came along the way with that, but also years of quite significant mental distress and suicidality, and that was because that experience was backed up by a history and a contemporary reality of State violence against people like me. The impact of that was profound, and I recognise that many people in this House will have had that similar experience from a range of different perspectives. I talk about that today because today is the Transgender Day of Remembrance, the day when we remember and honour the lives of trans and non-binary people who have been murdered or harmed through discrimination and hate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe know that this country, as well as many other countries across the Pacific, has had a history of inclusion of people who don\u2019t fit the traditional roles of men and women, yet the Human Rights Commission found in their seminal report of 2006 that being trans is not a lifestyle choice, but it\u2019s simply one dimension of the rich diversity that is humanity\u2014they are us; we are them. But they showed the profound impact and prevalence of discrimination in our society and that that threatened the person\u2019s safety and wellbeing of that community and those people in our country. This has been recently backed up by a survey through the Waikato University research of around 1,200 trans and non-binary people that, shockingly, showed that over half of those people had seriously considered suicide in the last 12 months, that the rates of discrimination against those people are twice that of the general population, and that those who experienced that discrimination were twice as likely to have attempted suicide in the last 12 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, my colleagues, we need to do better, and I would ask every member in this House and members of the public to reflect on what we can do to celebrate our rich diversity and improve the lives of our trans and non-binary constituents and friends and families. For me, a good starting point is \u201CDo unto others\u201D when it comes to challenging discrimination, and I really hope that if more of us pick up that motto, we might just save some lives and create a society where all of us have the ability to flourish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022b878e8d311954e26a68a2a0df282d8ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b878e8d311954e26a68a2a0df282d8ae\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E It feels like 2008 all over again. I worked here in 2008, and I remember question time every day: Taito Phillip Field, the Electoral Finance Bill, questions around trusts, and I remember the election when Helen Clark said, \u201CThis election\u2019s about trust.\u201D I remember the Spencer Trust and I remember the last year of that Government being dogged by questions around Mr Peters and New Zealand First, and it feels like d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu. It feels like it\u2019s starting again, just two years into this Government\u2019s time in office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the Provincial Growth Fund and the application from Future Forest Products Ltd, because, let me tell you, we have not heard the last of this. There is more to come. We know a Provincial Growth Fund application was made from March 2019 onwards. They wanted a $15 million loan for a feasibility study\u2014$15 million. Now, look, you might think that there\u2019s not much wrong with that. The Provincial Growth Fund has funded a lot of feasibility studies around the country, and they\u2019re very expensive as well, except for the fact that this application came from a company that recently registered a director, Brian Henry\u2014who, we all know, is a personal lawyer for Winston Peters and a New Zealand First judicial officer\u2014his son, and Jan Trotman, who was added as a director in August. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe know there was back and forth with the officials. We know that there were videoconferences, there were meetings, and there was email correspondence, and a critical question that we will be investigating in this House is: how much involvement did Ministers have in that process? How much awareness did Ministers have during that process? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe know that there was some back and forth and there was some correspondence. On 21 September, a Mr Henry emailed Shane Jones\u2019 office and sent on an article that would be of interest in relation to forestry investment. That was sent to his senior private secretary and later forwarded on to the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWhat did we learn yesterday? Yesterday, we learnt that on 4 November, responsibility for decision making around the application for the Provincial Growth Fund was transferred to David Clark\u2014the responsibility for answering it was transferred on 4 November. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMultiple questions arise: firstly, when did Mr Jones, the responsible Minister, know about the application? When did he know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263cea0ca69f847099d17e2de148a2328\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: You asked the questions in the House today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdf8314368f645d1ad6d93bf956811e4\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because Mr Parker was very careful\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022784d97e850af4f8a8331029be0e3fe81\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I didn\u2019t ask the questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b0d981255be483c9661239e3f4b7b81\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Parker was very careful in the House today to say that when he became aware an application was going to Ministers\u2014which was in October\u2014he, therefore, recused himself. The critical question, which we will keep asking, is when he was aware an application was being made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5c83072702647f29c76e741906b96df\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022361989b992aa43d19ed47055aa1e6680\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Ball laughs and scoffs. A lot turns on this\u2014a lot turns on this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the first one. Secondly, why did the Minister wait until October to realise the conflict and declare it properly? Thirdly, why was that transfer only made on 4 November, remembering that just three days later the application was declined? A remarkably quick turn-around when the application was first made in March this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere are further questions for Mr Peters and for the Prime Minister herself. Who else declared a conflict? Mr Peters stood in Parliament yesterday and made reference to more than one Minister declaring a conflict. Who was the other Minister? Who was it? Was it Mr Peters himself? Was it Fletcher Tabuteau, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Regional Economic Development? When were those conflicts declared? Why did Mr Peters say\u2014as he did yesterday in relation to the application\u2014that it never went to Ministers? Mr Peters said in question time yesterday that the application was declined by the independent managers who run the Provincial Growth Fund, but yet we had David Clark yesterday, and then Mr Parker on behalf of Shane Jones today, saying that it was Ministers that declined at the regional economic development Ministers\u2019 meeting. Mr Peters said yesterday that one Minister knew nothing. Is that really true? We will ask these questions. This is a very murky picture. We will continue to get to the bottom of it in Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u00223b5e8a2d67174c0db61dc877489471cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b5e8a2d67174c0db61dc877489471cd\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO (Minister for Pacific Peoples):\u003C/span\u003E When people speak, I try to interpret what they say in pictures, and as those two National members speak, I see pictures of farm animals\u2014a pig, maybe a dog\u2014rolling in their own faeces\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b2fa18649824384bfcf239912e4abd1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I mean, that that might be an appropriate view; it might be what the member truly believes, but I think it doesn\u2019t add to the decorum of the House. I don\u2019t think it helps the images for the rest of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe252f2cc49a4be7b802e77bc2653b1c\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: The point I\u2019m making is that trying to throw dirt in the hope that it sticks with people in this House doesn\u2019t do them well, particularly when they brand themselves as the moral right in this House. Well, it\u2019s disappointing. It is disappointing. When I hear Jan Logie speak, I hear and see pictures of kindness, of a hand out in support of others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ETonight, on a brighter note, let me just acknowledge, first and foremost, the number of community organisations who are working hard on the ground in our communities right across New Zealand: the Salvation Army, community groups, the number of groups that are on the ground dealing with the day-to-day issues that many families are facing. I want to acknowledge them because I understand their impatience. I understand the important work of the advocacy that they are doing on behalf of so many families, and the fact that they have had to work under the previous Government for nine long years, where they were squeezed continually, where the previous Government refused to acknowledge the number of crises that these groups are having to deal with. I\u2019m saying to them: \u201CLook, we\u2019ve started the work.\u201D I know and sense their impatience. We\u2019ve started the work looking long term, looking to how we tackle the long-term challenges that our families and communities are facing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the leadership of the Prime Minister, the leadership of New Zealand First, and the leadership of the Green Party. Once upon a time, they were laughing. We weren\u2019t going to get along together. But these three parties are working hard on behalf of all New Zealanders, having to fix the mess that we inherited under that lot. They did not care one iota. So I am proud to say\u2014even when I hear the Hon Carmel Sepuloni being questioned day in, day out, by the very group that left the mess, pretending as if they care. They don\u2019t care. But with the leadership of our Ministers here, we are on track to ensure that New Zealand is the best country to raise a child, is the best country to raise a family. We\u2019re on track to deliver up to 74,000 children out of poverty. We\u2019ve delivered the Families Package and we\u2019re on track. When it\u2019s fully rolled out in 2021, 335 families with children will be far better off by $75 a week on average. That is far better than their focus on giving only their corporate mates\u2014high income - bracket lot\u2014a tax cut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve delivered more houses than any other Government since the 1970s. We have raised the minimum wage, lifting the income of those at the very bottom, and we are on track to deliver $20 per hour by the year 2021. We\u2019re delivering more funding to schools so that parents don\u2019t have to pay for school donations. We\u2019re delivering cheaper doctor visits for 540,000 community services card holders. We are delivering new cancer treatment equipment and new cancer drugs, more people are in work today, more people are working full-time, and they are making higher wages, in only two years since we came into office\u2014far better than that lot in the nine years that they had the administration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWe are delivering support to the Pacific region under our Pacific Reset policy. We have looked out to Samoa under our Treaty of Friendship, supporting the measles crisis that they are experiencing at this time. Why? Because they are family. They are family. And in their hour of need, we come to the need. We are delivering far more for M\u0101ori and Pacific than that Government has ever done in their five years. Sure, there is still much more to be done. We ask all of our communities to continue to advocate, but be patient with us. We are working hard. We\u2019ve got it started, but we\u2019re still a long way from completing the work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb2df314a12b49518d556c0776b792b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb2df314a12b49518d556c0776b792b9\u0022\u003EJO HAYES (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I don\u2019t know about that last contribution, because the other night I was at an event where I caught up with a number of M\u0101ori leaders. One of the questions they said to me was \u201CWhat\u2019s happening with Wh\u0101nau Ora?\u201D I said, \u201CWell, I, like you, am quite interested, and wondering what\u2019s happening with Wh\u0101nau Ora.\u201D To be told in their conversations with Government Ministers over Wh\u0101nau Ora that only half of that $80 million set aside in that Budget would go to the Wh\u0101nau Ora commissioning agencies that would eventually end up with wh\u0101nau providers absolutely shocked me. I thought, \u201CWhat on earth is going on?\u201D Why has the Minister been so quiet about Wh\u0101nau Ora and the delivery of the Wh\u0101nau Ora budget that was held this year in the 2019 Budget? There was a lot of hoopla around this Budget for M\u0101ori and Wh\u0101nau Ora. To find out that half of that fund is going into Government agencies is an absolute shock to me, and it will be a shock to a number of Wh\u0101nau Ora providers out in the community today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EHow can $40 million into a Government agency deliver Wh\u0101nau Ora down to the services on the ground? How can a Government agency manage that from their desk? I say they cannot. Just today, in the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, we heard from a Wh\u0101nau Ora commissioning agency about the work of their 58 navigators covering a whole region. We found out about the trials and tribulations of a lack of funding to actually support the navigators. We heard around the role of the navigators and how many lives they have affected and been able to save. To this particular Wh\u0101nau Ora commissioning agency, for them to learn that only $40 million across the four-year period that this Government has put aside for Wh\u0101nau Ora will only be going to the Wh\u0101nau Ora commissioning agencies is a shame. It is a lost opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EI am disappointed that this Government can stand up and say \u201CWe have delivered this, this and this.\u201D, and yet, many hundreds of M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau go begging because they have not received the support within the Wh\u0101nau Ora commissioning agencies because of a lack of funding. I am disappointed. I\u2019m disappointed that M\u0101ori Ministers can let the delivery of funds and services to M\u0101ori go on the back-burner in favour of Government agencies. To be able to give funding into Corrections, that has a lot of money, from the Wh\u0101nau Ora budget is shameful. It\u2019s absolutely shameful. People say, \u201COh, but they need to have Wh\u0101nau Ora inside the prisons.\u201D Well, that\u2019s what Corrections are funded for. That should be part and parcel of their rehabilitation programme, and they should fund it. That funding should not come out of the Wh\u0101nau Ora budget. That funding for Wh\u0101nau Ora should go to the people on the ground, to the families that it was designed to target. I, on this side, along with my colleagues, am astounded that this Government can do that to the very people who actually put them over there on those benches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EI am also very disappointed in the fact that the Minister has not come out and enlightened the Wh\u0101nau Ora community about what he is doing for Wh\u0101nau Ora. It is very disappointing for him to sit there and for me to actually keep saying to him that we need to know, they need to know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that is not delivering to M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau; it hasn\u2019t been ever since it got into Government. Ever since it got into Government, it promised big things for M\u0101ori, and it has failed every which way. In many ways the contributions in this House today for general debate have been about accountability for funding and have been about accountability for services. This Government cannot and should not hold its head up high, because it has failed, failed, failed in the delivery of services\u2014failed to account for the very funds that these taxpayers in New Zealand provide so services can be delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EAll I want to say to the many wh\u0101nau out there is that on this side of the House, when we take the Government benches in 2020, we will make sure that Wh\u0101nau Ora funds are invested into wh\u0101nau on the ground and that Government agencies will just have to manage with the funds that they currently have, because they get a lot of money\u2014I know Te Puni K\u014Dkiri got $10 million from that funding in May, and what have they done for it? I am disappointed. My heart breaks for the wh\u0101nau of New Zealand. This Government should vacate those seats because they do not deliver services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00221e380aa62c2544b187e349cb0c3477e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e380aa62c2544b187e349cb0c3477e9\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This afternoon, we had the privilege and pleasure\u2014as we often do\u2014of having children in the gallery to witness question time. When the children come through the door, they immediately gravitate to the Prime Minister\u2019s chair. The children often come\u2014oh, and to you, Mr Speaker, of course. Perhaps, just an aside, Mr Speaker, I do want to thank the Parliament for the delivery of that playground to make our Parliament much more accessible to the people of New Zealand\u2014and I think there is a photo on social media that might have yourself sliding down that slide, but I couldn\u2019t possibly comment on that. But what I do want to say is that children come to Parliament and they want to see our Prime Minister because they know that the Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern is there for them. Before I became a member of Parliament, I worked with Jacinda Ardern in her role as spokesperson for children, and I completely believe and understand just how strong her commitment to children is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EI want to start with that premise\u2014that children are important and that this Government is committed to making New Zealand the best place to be a child. That\u2019s really important, it\u2019s the focus of our work, it\u2019s why we have an agenda that is about wellbeing, and it\u2019s why we have also worked alongside Treasury to deliver the Living Standards Framework. What this is about is ensuring that all of the work of Government is delivered around five key priorities, and one of the most important priorities is our children. Now, that\u2019s, you know, really sensible because it\u2019s about our future and we want our children to do well. But more than that, we want them to thrive. There are many, many parts of our Families Package, in particular, that deliver specifically to children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EI want to talk about how we look at building the income in a family. So not only is that looking at raising the minimum wage and looking to ensure that Government employees and contractors move to the living wage but that\u2019s also about supporting people at the most difficult time of a family\u2019s life, and that\u2019s when a new baby comes into the house\u2014how stressful that is. This Government has taken a universal approach to say that we know this is a difficult time for families, so we\u2019re going to support you by making sure that you have an extra $60 in your pocket to make sure that you attend to baby\u2019s needs\u2014whether that\u2019s formula or nappies or all those little things that you might need. Babies can be really expensive, and we say that, actually, we know that it\u2019s important for every family to be supported in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EWe also want to create healthy environments for our children. I\u2019m particularly proud\u2014and I don\u2019t mind how often I say this, because it impacts the children in my area, in my city, and in my region\u2014of the work that we are doing in Mana Ake to support children who experience trauma, particularly post-earthquake. I\u2019m also proud of the work that we\u2019re doing with young people, in terms of Piki, to support their mental health. Children are fragile and when things happen they need support to recover and restore them from trauma. So I\u2019m enormously proud of the work that we\u2019re doing in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s more than that; we\u2019re also looking at their education. So we have, in this term of Parliament, paid teachers more and we\u2019ve paid early childhood educators more because we recognise that quality education comes from teachers who feel rewarded. Now, we know that early childhood educators are also being rewarded for their work, but we know that there is much more that we can do in that space. We encourage our colleagues to make sure that they keep telling us about the issues and the pressures that we face, because we have started on this journey, we\u2019ve got much more to do, but we don\u2019t always know the impact of our work until we\u2019re reminded by our friends and colleagues. So we encourage people to keep telling us about what more there is to be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EYou know, school lunches are going to be free, and I often reflect on my grandson and what it means for him, just like I reflect on what it means for other children to be well supported right at the beginning stages of their lives, to have a great education, to be supported when things don\u2019t go well, and, when they\u2019re at school, to have the best education from the best teachers. And, also, if things aren\u2019t going so well at home, that you\u2019ve got support from nurses in schools, that you\u2019ve got support from Mana Ake, and, sometimes, when families aren\u2019t doing so well, that we can actually make sure that children are fed so that they have the opportunity to learn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EI am proud of this Government and I am proud of our Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002269ac3b8cfb714c8388bea10b655513ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269ac3b8cfb714c8388bea10b655513ee\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Naturally Together \u2013 A Call to Action, on the West Coast on Sunday, where we got close to 4,000 locals turning up; 120 MPs were invited, six turned up\u2014five from National. It was respectful, it was showcasing the very best of the Coast, and it talked about how Government policy is affecting locals. Speakers from the affected industries\u2014timber, mining, tourism, farming, forestry, and electricity\u2014as well as Ng\u0101ti Waewae and two of our local mayors were all speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EIt was in 2017 when we first heard the policy announcement in the Speech from the Throne: no new mining on conservation land. The public was going to be consulted. Two years later, this Government still has not delivered the consultation document\u2014the discussion document that we\u2019ve been waiting on. Two years of uncertainty, and failing and falling business confidence. Not knowing is sometimes worse than actually knowing and being able to make a decision and get on with life, because we don\u2019t know how to plan for our futures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI can tell you this: the no-new-mining announcement may as well be policy, because that is exactly how the land is being administered right now. It is not national park, it is not Schedule 4 land; it\u2019s old forestry blocks covered in gorse and flax, most of it cut over and a lot of it already mined. It\u2019s just a place that had no place to go in the changes of 1989; land that is not virgin, native, mature forest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThat land used to provide up to 1,500 jobs; they in turn support other jobs in our schools, our supermarkets, our cafes, our retail, and our other trades, but also support other things like sports clubs, volunteer organisations\u2014like your Rotaries and Lions club, St John, and your school committees etc., etc. We help heat dairy and timber factories, meat-processing plants, horticulture, hospitals, and schools all across New Zealand. There are alternatives that need to come along to fill the gaps that have been created.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EIf we are to stop our industries\u2014and it\u2019s not unlike the stopping of the oil and gas exploration\u2014we need this Government to deliver the pathway for this just transition. We\u2019re not making a case there for open slather on our stewardship land. In fact, all we want is a case by case analysis, an assessment, because we believe that\u2019s the best approach. It\u2019s worked well for us for decades, and it gives us, I believe, the best of both worlds. It is not mining or the environment; it is mining and the environment\u2014that\u2019s how we\u2019ve always treated it, and that\u2019s why our backyard is still pristine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s not only mining that\u2019s been affected in this Government\u2019s policy decisions. We\u2019ve been feeling the impacts with whitebaiting, the freshwater policies, the national policy statement, the biodiversity, native timber, running roughshod over our private property rights with more proposed significant natural areas, the pounamu, the moss, but the last straw was to turn down the Waitaha run-of-river hydro scheme, a clean renewable energy project. I believe this is unbelievable politics at play.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ENow, the irony that we see on the Coast is that it\u2019s the birthplace of the Labour Party, and their mission was to look after workers\u2019 rights, to look after their conditions and fight for the eight-hour day and working conditions. Yeah right. I argue that they have yet to find their new purpose, relevant purpose, for existing. Coasters are heartland New Zealand, real people, and proud hard workers. So we are stunned when we are criticised for being vocal about how fearful we are for our futures. It\u2019s the speed of change. It\u2019s the amount of change happening all at once. Communities need time to adjust to change. So where is this just transition that the Government keeps talking about and not delivering? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut to be told by the very person who is elected to take his community\u2019s views back to Wellington that we are too resistant to change, to get our head out of the sand, or to tell others just to get over it speaks to me of a person who has lost touch with his electorate and has stopped listening. As the new spokesperson for West Coast issues, I can assure the Coasters we will stick, naturally, together. As the new spokesperson, I will have their back, not stab them in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u0022df17de96059446169ecfa89b08370cc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df17de96059446169ecfa89b08370cc3\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A-SUISUIKI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora e Te Mana Whakaw\u0101. It\u2019s an absolute privilege to speak on today\u2019s general debate as speaker number seven. I don\u2019t agree with Simon Bridges about his description of that member\u2019s abilities\u2014I don\u2019t agree with it. I\u2019m not going to say it, because I\u2019m better than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is doing better under this Government than in the previous nine years of neglect left to us by the National Government. Why do I say that? Well, I want to echo what the Hon Poto Williams has said about the playground\u2014your leadership in terms of the playground outside. I promise that I will do live selfies with the safety in mind of the other children around me. But I want to, with all jokes aside, thank you. Thank you for your leadership. It\u2019s now starting to look like a New Zealand Parliament for all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EEarlier this afternoon, the Rt Hon Jacinda Arden, who I am privileged to be in the leadership of, and the Hon Carmel Sepuloni spoke about the report of how thousands of children are doing better under this Government. Why do I say that? The reports say that 385 families with children will be better off by an average $75 a week. So when I say New Zealanders are doing well under this Government, I wanted to talk to you about Ezekiel Robson. Now, Ezekiel Robson stopped me on the streets of Papakura and he said to me, \u201CAnahila, I would like you to extend to\u201D\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CJacinda and the Labour caucus my thankfulness.\u201D He\u2019s a first-time parent\u2014a first-time parent. Seventy five dollars a week has enabled them, he said, to buy a little something for their newly born son. And what touched my heart? He said, \u201CAnd we can put a little bit away for his education.\u201D The look on Ezekiel Robson\u2019s face and heart\u2014actually, it was so warm that I had to take a selfie and send it to the Prime Minister to say thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s what I mean. New Zealanders are doing well under this Government. One million New Zealanders were warmed by the winter energy payment. I was stopped at the Hon Aupito William Sio\u2019s streets in M\u0101ngere, where they said to me, and I quote, \u201CAnahila, tell Jacinda thank you for the winter energy payment.\u201D I said, \u201CWhy?\u201D \u201CBecause my dad said we can turn the heater on this winter.\u201D\u2014my dad said we can turn the heater on this winter. When I say New Zealanders are doing better under this Government, it is actually the ordinary person on the street who actually feels the sunshine. It\u2019s summer. Let\u2019s brighten it up. It\u2019s summer. Let\u2019s brighten up our day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EI was at the SunPix awards, where SunPix acknowledges leaders in the Pacific community for their input, for enriching Aotearoa New Zealand. The person that won the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade Pacific Enterprise Award, her name was Lisa Taouma. Now, Lisa Taouma is the Coconet founder. There\u2019s a programme here on TV2 that\u2019s called Fresh\u2014she\u2019s the founder of Fresh on TVNZ. She said when she received her award, \u201CI want to extend a thanks to the Government, to this coalition Government, for their investment, after 10 years, into the Pacific arts and broadcasting\u2014never have done that before in the last 10 years.\u201D She said that in her thank-you speech to say thank you\u2014thank you\u2014and she actually mentioned two Ministers: thank you to the Prime Minister and also the Hon Carmel Sepuloni and the Hon Jenny Salesa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003ENow that is a demonstrator, is evidence, of ordinary New Zealanders, whether they are parenting for the first time; whether they are still at home as an adult with their parents, who still control how the electricity is supplied in their home; or whether they are being acknowledged for their leadership in New Zealand\u2014people are saying thank you. People are saying thank you. For that, it warms my heart. It warms my heart because I know that\u2019s evidence that New Zealanders are doing better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EOne note\u2014we now have our programme in terms of rolling out nurses in schools. Earlier, last month, the Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern and I were at Rosehill College\u2014and that\u2019s leadership. One thing is to design something on paper, but there is another thing to actually visit schools and see how those designs come out. Thank you, Rosehill College in Papakura for hosting the Prime Minister, for showing that you have 2\u00BD nurses who are there to respond to the physical health needs of students, but also taking their mental health seriously and providing\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d853c6e3d174451ba2e8ab7f1ea9f3ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d853c6e3d174451ba2e8ab7f1ea9f3ab\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, it\u2019s an interesting week, and I think this place often ends up that way, but we can start by looking at what we\u2019re hearing in the news about New Zealand First\u2019s funding streams. They have always had some unique funding avenues, and I think it just highlights some of the unique characteristics this Government has. Whilst they might claim on that side that they are delivering for New Zealanders, I think we need to ask: are New Zealanders actually feeling better off under this Government? Quite clearly, in the Waikato, the answer is no. They have been let down time and again by this Government failing to deliver. Broken promises left, right, and centre\u2014all over the show, they have failed to help New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWe heard just before about ordinary New Zealanders. Well, I\u2019m not entirely sure what an ordinary New Zealander is, but in the Waikato, we have thousands of extraordinary New Zealanders who are going above and beyond every day to make the best they can in their jobs, in their communities, and for their families, and they are feeling let down by this Government\u2014extraordinary New Zealanders every day trying to be better off. Business owners, employees, people participating in community activities\u2014whatever it may be, they are feeling they are not better off under this Government. You can look at some of the basic stats: the number of people on benefits have increased significantly, homeless numbers have increased, rent costs have gone up as well. Actually, even in strong rural areas like the Waikato, some of those aspects impact on us and our provincial rural towns\u2014towns like Matamata, towns like Morrinsville. When I talk to constituents throughout those towns, I ask them how they\u2019re doing. \u201CHow\u2019s business going? Are you feeling better off under this Government?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221248b847ce004fe5a752b10d67d3cbc6\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: The member asks them like that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c0edeebc1b9405c9392774e3ff4eaf7\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: And the resounding answer is clearly no. Mr McAnulty might make fun of talking to constituents, and perhaps, I guess, he doesn\u2019t understand that since he has none, but I would encourage him to get out and try talking to people in the electorates. It\u2019s a novel approach. This Government should try it a bit more. We\u2019ve seen far too often they are curtailing what we would expect as a standard democratic process. You can look at any number of pieces of legislation that have gone through this House that have had a curtailed select committee process. The typical attitude from this Government is that they know best. The arrogance of it, to assume they know more than people throughout New Zealand\u2014those extraordinary New Zealanders who are every day doing their best in their particular fields of interest are being let down time and again, and this Government needs to wake up and smell the roses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re seeing huge uncertainty in the business sector, and I hear that around my electorate. Businesses that are employing tens of staff, hundreds of staff throughout our communities\u2014a massive contribution they make to the economic wealth and benefit and prosperity within our regions. They\u2019re saying \u201CWell, actually, I don\u2019t feel confident under this Government.\u201D, and we see that in the business confidence stats. So they\u2019re not making investment decisions, they\u2019re not making hiring decisions\u2014some of those considerations that this Government just doesn\u2019t seem to get when they think about trying to make people better off: \u201Ceveryday New Zealanders\u201D, whatever that term is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s the same in the farming sector. We saw just last week, out on the forecourt here at Parliament, a massive protest led by the 50 Shades Of Green movement. Farmers from around the country\u2014and there were farmers from the Waikato that had travelled down, which shows how passionate they are to represent their industry and express their concerns with the policy settings this Government is putting forward. Far too many aspects within that are focused on the farming sector negatively. Everyone would agree there needs to be change and improvement; the farming sector accepts that. But, actually, it\u2019s not just a farming issue. This is for all of New Zealand to improve, and these policies are letting farmers down. Despite prices being at very good levels, interest rates being at very low levels, and, actually, weather conditions being pretty good\u2014the three factors that typically underpin farming confidence, it is the lowest it has been in decades. That is clearly driven by the uncertainty this Government is stoking into the sector, and the rhetoric that comes out from this Labour-led Government and their New Zealand First supporters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not good enough, and sadly we\u2019re seeing that play out in a range of areas. We just talked yesterday about the mental health commission being set up, and I do commend them on that, because that is a great piece of work. There are far too many New Zealanders suffering from mental health. Sadly, in rural New Zealand we\u2019ve seen that increasing in terms of suicide rates; that has gone up. Urban New Zealand is trending down, which is fantastic. In rural New Zealand that\u2019s not the case. So we need to see more front-line services and we need to see it sooner. A significant increase in investment there is fantastic, but it needs to be playing out in front-line services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s before we even get on to some of the transport issues, which I want to touch on briefly before we finish. So a whole range of areas that were feeling let down, broken promises, and a failure to deliver. And I would just reiterate the letters I wrote to the Prime Minister and transport Minister. Road safety is critical. Karapiro School, that intersection, I want to see the Ministers there to fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00222c7c426c1781429a92c8856acc0a1e89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c7c426c1781429a92c8856acc0a1e89\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00221458e321a5ac4f7fbaf4cf768e3dbadb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221458e321a5ac4f7fbaf4cf768e3dbadb\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E E Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Me t\u012Bmata taku k\u014Drero pea ki te tuku mihi ki a koe, n\u0101u i whakapuare te papa t\u0101karo ki waho i Te Whare P\u0101remata i t\u0113nei r\u0101. \u0100, kua \u016B koe ki \u014D kupu ki taku m\u0101m\u0101, kua whakapuare i te papa t\u0101karo i t\u0113nei r\u0101. N\u014D reira, e Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 hoki t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei r\u0101 m\u014D ng\u0101 tamariki, he r\u0101 whakanui i ng\u0101 tamariki puta noa i te ao. He tohu pai t\u0113n\u0101 i waho i t\u0113nei Whare P\u0101remata, he tohu pai an\u014D i roto i t\u0113nei Whare P\u0101remata. I t\u0113nei r\u0101 i tae mai t\u0113tahi kura n\u014D Te Tai Tokerau, ar\u0101 Te Kura o Waikare. E tino whakah\u012Bh\u012B ana ahau te whakaatu atu ki a r\u0101tou t\u0113nei Whare o t\u0101tou. \u0100, \u014D mahi, e Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare, me Te Pir\u012Bmia an\u014D hoki. I haere mai a Jacinda Ardern ki te t\u016Btaki i \u0113nei taitamariki ki te k\u014Drero, ki te whakautu i \u014D r\u0101tou p\u0101tai i te w\u0101 o te tina.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EE mihi ana ahau ki a ia. E m\u014Dhio ana ahau ko te mea nui ki a ia ko te oranga o ng\u0101 tamariki. Kua k\u012B ia t\u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero i ng\u0101 r\u0101 o mua. Kua kite i roto i ng\u0101 mahi kua tutuki i a m\u0101tou, Te K\u0101wanatanga, i roto i te rua tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EKo te ture tuatahi i whakatau i roto i t\u0113nei Whare i te w\u0101 i t\u012Bmata m\u0101tou hei K\u0101wanatanga ko te whakaroa ake i ng\u0101 wiki ka hoatu ki ng\u0101 m\u0101tua o t\u0113tahi p\u0113pi k\u0101tahi an\u014D ka wh\u0101nau mai, ki te tautoko i a r\u0101tou te wh\u0101nau i taua w\u0101. Kua whakaroa ake ki te 26 wiki. Koir\u0101 te t\u016Bmanako, koir\u0101 te whakatau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EK\u0101tahi an\u014D ka puta mai t\u0113tahi r\u012Bpoata i te r\u0101 tonu nei. Ko t\u0113nei te r\u012Bpoata tuatahi i kite au i te ata nei, ka tino hari, ka tino koa ahau. Ko te k\u014Drero i roto i taua r\u012Bpoata e whakaatu atu ana e mahi tika ana m\u0101tou, t\u014D m\u0101tou kaupapa, m\u014D te kaupapa o ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau, te tahua p\u016Btea m\u014D ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau, ar\u0101 Te Families Package. Kua tonoa atu neke atu i te rima me te h\u0101whe piriona t\u0101ra ki ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau maha puta noa i Aotearoa ki te hiki i te taimahatanga ki runga i a r\u0101tou. E t\u016B whakah\u012Bh\u012B ana ahau i t\u0113r\u0101 mahi n\u0101 te mea e whakapono ana ahau, e kite ana ahau i roto i Te Tai Tokerau, \u0113tahi atu w\u0101hi an\u014D hoki, \u0101, ko t\u0113nei p\u016Btea e tohatoha ana ki \u0113nei wh\u0101nau, e hiki ana, e piki ana, \u0101, e hiki ana i ng\u0101 taimahatanga ki runga i a r\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EE tautoko ana hoki i ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau i te tau kotahi \u0101 muri mai i te wh\u0101nautanga o ng\u0101 p\u0113pi. Ka toha atu ki a r\u0101tou tata ki te $60 ia wiki ki te \u0101whina i a r\u0101tou i t\u0113r\u0101 w\u0101 e m\u014Dhio nei t\u0101tou ka piki ake ng\u0101 utu m\u014D te tiaki p\u0113pi i taua tau. Tata ki te 36,000 wh\u0101nau kua whakawhiwhia i t\u0113r\u0101 p\u016Btea hei tiaki i a r\u0101tou i taua w\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u0100, kua rongo koutou i te k\u014Drero i roto i t\u0113nei Whare i t\u0113nei ahiahi, m\u014D te kotahi miriona t\u0101ngata kua whakawhiwhia te moni i te w\u0101 o te h\u014Dtoke, ar\u0101 te w\u0101 o te makariri. Ka taea e r\u0101tou te whakamahana ake \u014D r\u0101tou whare. He painga t\u0113r\u0101 m\u014D te tokomaha o ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EE Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare, kua rongo pea koutou, te ao, i te wero i Te Pir\u012Bmia, kia whakaputa i te rua miniti ng\u0101 mea katoa kua tutuki i t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga, engari kore taea e ia. He nui k\u0113 atu ng\u0101 mahi kua tutuki i a m\u0101tou i te rua tau, t\u0113 taea te whakaputa i te rua miniti. N\u014D reira, e mihi ana ki a ia e whakar\u0101rangi ana ng\u0101 mahi kua tutuki, engari ko ia kei te k\u012B, k\u0101tahi an\u014D m\u0101tou ka t\u012Bmata, he nui tonu ng\u0101 mahi kei mua i te aroaro.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EKua rongo i roto i t\u0113nei Whare an\u014D hoki ko te whakakore i ng\u0101 koha a ng\u0101 m\u0101tua ki ng\u0101 kura hei tiaki i ng\u0101 p\u016Btea o te kura. Kua whakakore in\u0101ianei i raro i t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga, kua rongo, neke atu i te 90 percent ng\u0101 kura i Te Tai Tokerau kua whakakorea t\u0113r\u0101 t\u016B\u0101huatanga. \u0100, me te utu i ng\u0101 whakam\u0101tautau. He taimahatanga t\u0113n\u0101 m\u014D ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau, m\u014D ng\u0101 taitamariki, m\u014D t\u014D r\u0101tou NCEA. Kua whakakore t\u0113r\u0101 \u0101huatanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI te mutunga ko taku k\u014Drero, ko te piko o te m\u0101huri, t\u0113r\u0101 te tupu o te r\u0101kau. Ko ng\u0101 tamariki ng\u0101 taonga tuku iho. T\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[To the Speaker, greetings. I should perhaps start my speech by congratulating you for opening the playground outside Parliament today. And you have stuck to your words to my mother, and opened the playground today. Therefore, to the Speaker, congratulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EGreetings to all of us on this day for the children, a day to celebrate children throughout the world. There are good signs outside of this House of Parliament; there are also good signs inside of Parliament House. Today a school from Northland came, namely Te Kura o Waikare. I was really proud to show them this House of ours. And, your work, Mr Speaker, and also the Prime Minister\u2014Jacinda Ardern came to meet these youth to speak and to answer their questions at lunchtime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI thank her for that. I know that the most important thing to her is the wellbeing of children. She has said that in the past. It is also visible in the actions we, the Government, have taken within two years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe first law that was passed in this House when we began as Government was to extend the weeks given to the parents of a baby who had just been born, to support the family at that time. It has been extended to 26 weeks. That was the hope; that was the decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EA report has just come out on this very day. This is the first report I saw this morning, and I was happy, very happy. The content of that report showed that we are doing the right thing with our initiative on the matter of families, the budget for families\u2014that is, the Families Package. Over $5.5 billion has been distributed to many families throughout New Zealand to lessen the pressures on them. I stand proud of that because I believe, and I see in Northland, and other places too, that this fund which is being distributed to these families is raising, is increasing, is lessening the burdens that are on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWe are also supporting families in the first year after the birth of babies. They are given approximately $60 each week to help them at that time, when we know the costs increase for looking after a baby for that year. Close to 36,000 families have been given that money to take care of them at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EAnd you have heard what has been said in this House this afternoon about the 1 million people who have been given money this winter\u2014that is in the cold season. They can increase the warmth in their houses. That is beneficial for many people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETo the Speaker, you have perhaps heard, as has the world, the challenge to the Prime Minister to express in two minutes the things which have been achieved by this Government; however, it was not possible for her. So many more things have been achieved by us within two years that it is not possible to express them in two minutes. Therefore, I acknowledge her for her listing of the actions which have been achieved, but it was she who said that we have just started; there is still much work in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWe have also heard in this House the abolishment of parental donations to schools to support the schools\u2019 funds. That has now been abolished under this Government, we\u2019ve heard, over 90 percent of the schools in Northland have abolished that practice. And, paying for exams. That is a pressure for families, for youth, and for their NCEA. That element has been abolished.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETo end my speech, the way in which a young sapling is nurtured determines how the tree will grow. The children are treasures passed down to us. Thank you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u00224ed472752d474bb6872972a47b69e505\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ed472752d474bb6872972a47b69e505\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise on behalf of New Zealand First, a party that I might say is in its 27th year of existence. I\u2019m proud to be associated with its fine contribution to New Zealand politics. From time to time during that period we have had to weather the odd political hit job, and now is just a time. In all cases, I might say, we have always been exonerated. Of course, there\u2019s the media frenzy that surrounds this sort of thing and the stone throwing from the National Party as they mount their moral high horse. But what they forget is their moral high horse is tethered firmly in the middle of a glass house. There is only one party in this Parliament that is being investigated by the Serious Fraud Office for political donations, and those allegations, concerningly, include that some of this money may have come from foreign origins, something that has no place in New Zealand politics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EBut New Zealand First, of course, has not been distracted. This has actually been a great week for us. Two longstanding pieces of legislation coming before the House: the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2), which, of course, had its origins with New Zealand First back as long ago as 1999. Tonight, that will go into legislation, and we are very proud of that. Of course, Minister Parker yesterday announced another delivery of a coalition promise, which is to add a national interest test to the Overseas Investment Office\u2014long overdue. Now the Government will have some levers. When these key strategic assets come up for sale, sometimes under duress, we will now have the ability to have a helicopter-level view as to whether this will be in the national interest. I commend Minister Parker and I commend\u2014in terms of our party this has been longstanding New Zealand First policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI was going to go into those things more, but I had to pick up on the contribution from Maureen Pugh, because I too was at that Naturally Together rally in Greymouth on Sunday. I would say that New Zealand First, and I in particular, spend quite a lot of time over there and have some sympathy for the issues that they were bringing forward. They do live in unique circumstances. Eighty-five percent of the coast is under Department of Conservation (DOC) control, and there is pressure on their legacy industries. They do not have a thousand years to transition. But if I would critique that rally, there was no balance to it. When we talk about a just transition, as Maureen Pugh did, there was no effort on that day to balance the ledger. What does a just transition look like? I can tell you that a just transition looks like this Government and the Provincial Growth Fund investing $90 million\u2014so far\u2014on the West Coast into things like port infrastructure, rail infrastructure, tourism infrastructure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e4a7fb42d6449cfba43f8e46cf9440d\u0022\u003EMaureen Pugh\u003C/span\u003E: What about jobs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af265b46a3c444b2910309f856141aad\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and, Maureen Pugh, even a mine, a garnet mine, just south of Hokitika, and you should know really well. And we did try to throw a financial lifeline to the Westland dairy co-op so it wouldn\u2019t have to go into foreign control. But what else have we done over there? We\u2019ve spent $35 million bailing out the local polytech. We\u2019re building two new hospitals over there. We have gone into the Pike River mine. We have not walked away, as the previous Government did. We have honoured the families of the Pike River 29, which could be the biggest crime scene in New Zealand history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThis Government is actually pretty proud of what we\u2019re doing over there. There is more to do, and we will look at things like the whitebait legislation that is coming forward. I know my colleague Jenny Marcroft is working very carefully with Minister Sage to make sure we do balance out recreational interests in terms of that iconic West Coast pastime. I myself am spending a lot of time over there on the water debates, because they do have some unique attributes over there in terms of their water issues that may not fit the one-size-fits-all model that is being mooted at this stage. But that is a discussion document that we are fully engaged in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo all these things mount up to New Zealand First and this coalition Government actually being very, very active on the Coast, looking to transition it into a 21st century future, not a 19th century future, as Maureen Pugh seems to expect. I stand completely by our record on the West Coast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a005b5c60894ef5974c025d8ce34d4a\u0022\u003EAsia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC 2021) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a71d3e3cc64a4f7c8363f51da18cadc3\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f106a23cce3d4ee78a6689a43785f6ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f106a23cce3d4ee78a6689a43785f6ef\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC 2021) Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 1 April 2020. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EMembers of the House, the APEC 2021 bill seeks agreement to ensure our country\u2019s legislation meets the unique security requirements of hosting the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum, otherwise known as APEC, in 2021. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ENew Zealand joined APEC as a founding member way back in 1989, and being part of this forum has helped boost our prosperity and place in the Asia-Pacific through its focus on economic growth and free trade. You could say our membership has helped New Zealand to speak the language of Asia and, increasingly, the Americas too. We have built strong, trusting relationships, and it\u2019s enabled us to join around the table with other economies facing similar challenges. Being one of 21 members has made it easier for New Zealand businesses to trade and provided a supportive environment for us to pursue key free-trade agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBy hosting APEC in 2021, New Zealand will take a leadership role in this region, which is vitally important to us. It\u2019ll be our chance to host world leaders and international media, and show what New Zealand can do and how we can do it. To a great extent, New Zealand\u2019s economic wellbeing and continued prosperity relies on our APEC friends and the work we are doing to advance regional economic integration. As hosts, we take on the responsibility of leading the year\u2019s agenda. It will be our turn to play our part in continuing to strengthen APEC to ensure we successfully address the many challenges we face from the digital economy to inequality, sustainable trade, and so much more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EMany of you will remember when we last hosted APEC in 1999\u2014well, perhaps not some of you; but some of us do remember\u2014with great distinction. We saw two significant diplomatic milestones: the first ever visit of a Chinese President to New Zealand, and only the second ever visit of a sitting US President to our country. Hosting APEC in 2021 is an important chance to take full advantage of the way we host, the way we lead the agenda, how we engage with a key part of the world, and the way we showcase New Zealand and our sustainable approach. Our year of hosting will provide and involve meetings between world leaders, Ministers, senior officials, business leaders, regional youth, and media. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWe are expecting up to 20,000 people to take part over the course of the year, including up to 20 world leaders and many Ministers during leaders\u2019 week in November, each with specific security support, from motorcades to foreign protection officers. The number of high-profile people visiting means a need for tailored security approaches. We hosted APEC in 1999, but given the changes to our global security landscape, it\u2019s no exaggeration to say that APEC 2021 is an international event of the size, scale, and complexity that this country has never seen before. Competence in our ability to host a safe and secure APEC is not just important to our own sense of responsibility as hosts; it\u2019s also of paramount importance to leaders and officials from across the region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EAnother point to make here is our need to help the general public feel safe and secure throughout our host year. When we last hosted APEC in 1999, the world was a considerably different place. We don\u2019t need to outline the many international new and local incidents that have scarred our world and compelled us to think more stringently about security and the what-ifs. The APEC New Zealand team is an all-of-Government team led by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade. They have conducted an analysis of our existing laws and found specific legislation is needed in certain areas to accommodate APEC\u2019s unprecedented size, scale, and complexity. That is what this bill will address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe APEC 2021 bill is about ensuring that New Zealand police have the resources needed in terms of people and technology. The bill will provide for the temporary security and safety of areas around key meeting locations, as well as motorcades, during the three weeks of the leaders\u2019 event. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIt must be emphasised that this legislation is temporary. Many of these aspects will only be in force during the leaders\u2019 event period of three weeks in November 2021. When all APEC meetings have finished and our visitors have left our shores, the legislation will expire and things will be as they were. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI will now outline the six points of this temporary legislation. First, during the leaders\u2019 event period of three weeks, plus periods of required training in 2020 and 2021, a small number of members of the armed forces will be trained and integrated into the New Zealand police force. They will provide specialist support and be given constabulary powers. The legislation enables the Commissioner of Police to draw upon an existing resource and capabilities in New Zealand to bolster our security resourcing. Members of the Defence Force are already highly trained, making this a pragmatic and cost-effective approach. The small number of Defence Force members will be under police control at all times and will be held to the same accountability as New Zealand police officers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe second point also covers the leaders\u2019 event period plus periods of required training. A number of Government agency staff, private security guards, and Australian police officers may be given limited powers to fulfil their security roles if required. This part of the legislation is designed to free up New Zealand police officers to carry out public-facing roles which require a greater understanding of policing in the New Zealand way, including knowledge of our laws and culture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe third point covers the leaders\u2019 event period only and provides policing powers to secure APEC venues and enable limited road closures for leaders travelling by motorcade, and some restrictions to movement on water if that is required. This point reflects the security needs of the leaders\u2019 event period and the need to provide safe meeting venues, accommodation, and transportation to visiting leaders and officials for the short duration of their stay. The security areas will be temporary\u2014for example, a few days as meetings take place or a few minutes as a motorcade passes by. The APEC New Zealand team will work closely with regional stakeholders such as the Auckland Council and the general public to ensure the majority of these areas are communicated to the public in advance to minimise disruption. These powers will also include the ability to search a private home if inside a security area, but will also be possible with a judicial warrant or the owner-occupier\u2019s consent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EPoint four covers all meetings during APEC year and allows the use of wireless electronic countermeasure technology, subject to the approval of the Commissioner of Police. This technology is generally used to scan an area and then jam, distort, or confuse signals coming from technology used in a threatening way, such as a mobile phone - operated bomb. This technology will be mostly used for very short periods of time, like minutes as a motorcade passes by, and the public will in most cases be notified in advance unless responding to an immediate risk. There is potential for anyone standing next to a motorcade or security area to lose mobile signal for a few seconds or minutes as the motorcade passes, after which everything will return to normal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe fifth point, which also covers meetings during APEC year, provides increased powers for the NZ Police to respond to risks posed by unmanned aerial vehicles such as drones, and piloted aircraft. Throughout APEC 2021, we will, effectively, have small no-flying areas near some meeting and accommodation venues. These no-fly areas will be shared ahead of time, minimising the chance of public drone-users being affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe final point of the APEC 2021 bill: during the leaders\u2019 event period, certain foreign protection officers will be allowed to carry firearms, subject to the approval of the police commissioner and subject to conditions the commissioner may impose, such as the type of weapon and the number that can be brought into New Zealand. These arms will only be carried by highly trained protection officers while protecting a world leader and will be recorded on entry to and exit from New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThis final point acknowledges that with the complexity of the security operation for leaders\u2019 week and the number of leaders who will be in New Zealand concurrently, some APEC economies will expect to carry certain weapons to ensure the safety of their leader. The APEC 2021 bill manages this, legislating that weapons can only be carried while securing a world leader. Otherwise, they must be securely stored by the New Zealand Police. This legislation creates a controlled process for managing any weapons brought into New Zealand. It needs to be pointed out that this is only to carry weapons to protect certain dignitaries. If the weapons are used, the foreign protection officers will be subject to the New Zealand law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EMembers, this legislation has been created following detailed analysis of existing legislation and the unique and unprecedented requirements of hosting APEC. Welcoming 20,000 people to our country, including the leaders of the world\u2019s three largest economies, brings with it significant opportunities but significant security challenges as well. I understand that some of the public may want to assemble and have their voices heard during the APEC year. The right to do so is fundamental to our democracy and not challenged by this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ECan I just conclude by saying this legislation seeks to minimise the impact of APEC 2021 on New Zealanders and to keep them safe. It supports our preparation and ability to respond to any risks that might arise in 2021. It will mean we can welcome and host our guests from APEC economies in a safe and secure environment that works to enhance New Zealand\u2019s prosperity. I want to thank those members of this Parliament who have signalled their support for this legislation. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3a37ed319f84c8087049e588898887d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3a37ed319f84c8087049e588898887d\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs for the very detailed outline of what\u2019s in this bill, and appreciate the point he makes that this is a very big deal for New Zealand and one that we can benefit from. So while the bill does for a very short time allow some inconvenience for some New Zealanders, we shouldn\u2019t lose sight of the fact that this is an opportunity that could see the prosperity of New Zealanders greatly enhanced. In this exercise, with the leaders of the three largest economies in the world potentially coming to New Zealand, we also see a number of countries inside APEC where there have been some tensions. To have all those leaders in New Zealand at a time where they may speak, I think, does the world a great service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAPEC has been one of the most successful international organisations that focuses on economies, for the entire time of its existence, and it is responsible for lifting literally tens of millions of people up the scale as far as the quality of their lives is concerned. New Zealand is a country that enjoys a lifestyle far in advance or in excess of what might be afforded if we were totally an internal economy. We are able as an economy to access the markets of the world, and a lot of that access is facilitated through the sort of organisation that APEC can provide. We are a trading nation, and for us to take this lead, which only happens about once in every 20\u2014in this case, 22\u2014years, is an opportunity that we should not in any way diminish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI want to just talk for a moment about the roles that various people will have in the special powers that are granted under this Act. Those are there only for the protection largely of New Zealanders. While the Deputy Prime Minister and foreign Minister outlined that there will be some provision for security services for world leaders who are coming here, that is specific to them. Many of the other provisions in here are to try and minimise for New Zealanders, particularly for those living in Auckland, the disruption that inevitably occurs at big events like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBut the value of those about 21 days\u2014and it won\u2019t be every day that we see that disruption\u2014to the New Zealand economy cannot be underestimated. So rather than relitigating everything that has been now put on the House\u2019s record as being part of this bill, can I just say that we will participate in the select committee process fully. There are a few aspects that will have to be clarified, particularly around the provision of security services held by those who might have a diplomatic clearance and what that would mean for their accountability under New Zealand law. But that\u2019s something a select committee can work through; what the committee of the whole House will be able to work through. I simply want to record that the National Party thinks this is a great opportunity for New Zealand, and we\u2019ll be facilitating the passing of this bill through its process into an Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002273d44c58a077495f97e6f3409c07f8e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273d44c58a077495f97e6f3409c07f8e1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Trade and Export Growth):\u003C/span\u003E Can I thank the shadow Leader of the House for that contribution and thank the National Party for their support of this piece of legislation. Can I endorse the comments of the Hon Gerry Brownlee about the importance of multilateral institutions. It is a nervous time in the world, and the multilateral institutions that have supported the international rule of law and made for relatively increasing peaceful coexistence in the world since World War II are a precious thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe less cohesive nature of those multilateral institutions compared with even 10 years ago is a thing that I think concerns politicians around the world, and certainly politicians from various parties in this Parliament. Those multilateral institutions obviously include the United Nations, APEC, the OECD, and the International Court of Justice. Each of these institutions is precious and has to be nurtured, and every country has to do its bit to support those institutions. We\u2019re lucky in New Zealand that we never have to host the United Nations, because the sort of security arrangements that arise for institutions like that when they host world leaders are every bit as complex as those applying to New Zealand during leaders\u2019 week for APEC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EInstitutions that are under siege, if you like, at the moment\u2014\u201Cunder siege\u201D is perhaps too strong an adjective, but the multilateral institutions that are less settled than they were\u2014include the World Trade Organization as well as some aspects of the United Nations. It\u2019s interesting; I\u2019ve heard the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs talk to me and to Cabinet about the United Nations Security Council and how that\u2019s increasingly blocked these days. We all know that the World Trade Organization is facing some challenges in respect of updating its rules and also keeping the appellate body going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAs a small trading nation which will never be big enough as a country to support internal markets for things like computers and cars, we actually have to sell to the rest of the world the goods and services that we do produce efficiently in order to pay for the things that we import. In order for us to do so on fair terms that maintain the standard of living of New Zealand, we need fair trade access to other countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne of the support bodies for the World Trade Organization is APEC. It\u2019s a grouping of countries on the edge of the Pacific\u2014countries that are as varied in their systems of government as is possible, really, in the world: countries like Russia, China, United States, New Zealand and Australia, Japan, South American countries. These countries come together under the APEC banner and try to sort out differences for the benefit of the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI was always struck by a statement that was highlighted recently by one of the New Zealand Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade officials who wrote an article about the Atlantic Charter. The Atlantic Charter was, essentially, agreed between Roosevelt and Churchill during the middle of World War II, who recognised that in order for peaceful relations to continue post - World War II, there had to be fair access for countries to a fair share of resources and the benefit of trade. And so at that time, they set out a course for post - World War II where countries could cooperate in order to have good trading relationships, in order for them to have secure economic places in the world, and to have benefits from good relationships with each other, which they thought would flow through to peaceful relationships outside of trade. And they were right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAPEC is the organisation that we now rely upon to bolster the likes of the World Trade Organization to ensure that. So every 22 years or so, it\u2019s New Zealand\u2019s turn to host it. And when we host it, we actually have to be able to provide for the security of world leaders. Some of those world leaders come from countries that have different circumstances to our own. And they face greater security threats than we have and actually, in some ways, they bring their expectations as to the protections they need to guarantee the safety of their leaders. And that, essentially, is what this APEC bill does. It actually says for this event, we actually have to provide for some changes to our normal laws in order to achieve the protection of those leaders. And I thought that the Minister of Foreign Affairs set that out very well in his speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not going to go through all of them and the detail that he did, but we actually do for this short period of time need to have a lot more people in the police. And where do we get them? We can\u2019t train them overnight. It wouldn\u2019t be wise to train them just for a week\u2019s work. So we actually have to bring in some of the armed forces and get them to do some of the policing during that period. We also need to accept help from, on occasions, the private sector, but also from Australia. And so this legislation enables that. Sometimes we need road closures and secure areas. This enables that. Sometimes we actually have to stop\u2014we have to enable the blocking of electronic signals that could be used to activate explosive devices. And I think that\u2019s a pretty small and temporary inconvenience that New Zealanders will have to accept in order to do that as motorcades pass. A fifth point, of course, as he has raised, relates to drones and I don\u2019t think that will prove to be contentious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut the issue as to some of the security details that these leaders bring with them\u2014being able to bring their own arms\u2014is something that we\u2019ve got to get the balance right on, and this legislation, I think, appropriately attempts to do that by requiring all of those arms to be approved, essentially, by the Commissioner of Police to be registered in and out of the country. And were there\u2014and we hope this never comes to pass\u2014but were those arms ever discharged in the course of those people\u2019s duties, then the circumstances of that will be judged according to New Zealand\u2019s law, and our laws as to self-defence and the like would not change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo with those comments, I support this bill and I\u2019m interested to hear comments from other speakers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022807763cbed534753b2cae8cc86fef69a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022807763cbed534753b2cae8cc86fef69a\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you. I\u2019m very pleased to speak in this legislation because, as with other speakers, I believe it is extremely important. I\u2019m not going to take a long period of time because I think it\u2019s very straightforward and it is something that all parties in this House should be able to accept and support\u2014vote for\u2014very quickly. There are many international events around the world that New Zealand takes part in, and we can be very proud of the role that we continue to play in them. But in as far as our ability to host international events or meetings, APEC is one of the larger ones that New Zealand has the ability and will have the opportunity to host. So it is fundamentally important that New Zealand, in taking on the hosting of APEC\u2014that we take our responsibilities seriously and we do absolutely everything we can to make sure it is a resounding success and that all of the guests and visitors that come here are safe and are treated properly, to make sure it\u2019s an absolute success over the 12 months that we will be the hosts, the chair of APEC. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAs my colleague the Minister for Trade and Export Growth said, there are many different events that are important to New Zealand, but I would say none more so than the trade discussions that the trade Minister will chair and host as we move forward. Indeed, it was the APEC meetings in Vietnam some years ago where New Zealand was able to work with other Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) countries to stitch together the deal that became the revised TPP that New Zealand exporters are now benefiting from. And if not for APEC, it may well have been very difficult for those other countries to come together, for New Zealand to play a role along with Japan and Australia, who showed great leadership for there to be a trade deal that is important to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESo in taking our responsibility seriously, it is the case that we need to make sure the rules that are in place are such that we can keep these visitors safe, that we can make sure they can, you know, move around the city and can ensure that in doing so, the tools that the New Zealand services will need\u2014may require\u2014will be there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got to say that I am deeply disappointed that the Green Party have said they won\u2019t be voting for this. And I\u2019m a bit surprised, because this legislation has been in place previously in New Zealand and is very infrequently used. But in the case it would have to be used, we need to make sure, actually, that we are able to meet these responsibilities. I am quite surprised that the Green Party are not supporting this legislation, yet the terrorism bill that was voted on in Parliament just a week or two before, they gave the Government the votes that were needed to ensure, I suppose, that New Zealand is safe from terrorists. So I don\u2019t know why it is that they have voted for the terrorism legislation but in this case, they won\u2019t support this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EOne of the challenges we\u2019ve got\u2014and I want to give an example of why this is so very, very important. In the terrorism legislation, National took a position that, actually, when a New Zealand citizen arrives at the border, if they are deemed to be a terrorist, we think that under certain circumstances the police and others should be able to hold them for 72 hours. So in the case of the legislation that is before us today for APEC, if a terrorist, a known terrorist from overseas, came to New Zealand, they could be detained at the border so that our visitors and all New Zealanders are safe. If that person was a New Zealand citizen with a passport, unless the Greens do actually what\u2019s proper, in giving Government support to get the terrorism legislation through, that New Zealander who turns up at the border, who has been a terrorist overseas, would not be able to be held for 72 hours and that means our visitors may not be safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe point I\u2019m making is there is a conflict in the two pieces of legislation and I think that the Greens should make sure that the terrorism legislation that they are supporting is fixed and they should be voting for this as well. This is not weighty legislation. It\u2019s not something that\u2019s going to harm the freedom of New Zealanders. It\u2019s going to make sure that they and our visitors are safe. And that\u2019s very much the reason that National is supporting it and joining the Government and other parties in doing so. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u00225d81a23ef1a74bbcbff9085902c5b1fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d81a23ef1a74bbcbff9085902c5b1fb\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO (Minister for Pacific Peoples):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to make a short contribution to this bill. I think the Deputy Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, has outlined eloquently the purpose of this particular bill. All I\u2019d want to add, though, is I was privileged a couple of months back, as part of the Prime Minister\u2019s delegation, to attend the United Nations General Assembly, and being that was my first time, I took a lot of videos of what was happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI did ask my companion just to video when one of the world leaders went past and we were all forced to stop. We got to the 14th vehicle in his motorcade and his hand was tired from videoing it, but there were still several more cars to come. When I made inquiries about, you know, what determines how many security officers and motorcades, I suppose the officials in charge of this determine the profiles of each individual world leader. For our leader, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, we had a couple of security people who accompanied her and she preferred to walk rather than travel in the car, which probably caused a lot of alarm and anxiousness with the security guys. But what I witnessed there, at the UN General Assembly, was that those leaders would not turn up to the United Nations if the security was not guaranteed for them. Therefore, yes, whilst people might feel a little bit nervous about this, we need to pass this legislation in order to provide security and support for a safe and secure APEC meeting when the period occurs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWe, as a nation, will host APEC in 2021, but our hosting activities will begin from December 2020 until November 2021, with meetings involving senior officials and Ministers expected to be in the vicinity of 20,000 people over that period. The leaders\u2019 week will take place from 8 November to 14 November in 2021 and will involve about 20 world leaders and Ministers\u2019 officials, business people, youth representatives, and media people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI think the Deputy Prime Minister underscored the fact that this is temporary legislation. It\u2019s for the purposes of providing a secure and safe APEC conference during that period, and the legislation will expire at the end of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThere are benefits, and I think\u2014for one\u2014as a small country, we are very much dependent on working at a multilateral level, and these institutions allow us to play a role that often is not appreciated by our general public in New Zealand. But we have a role to play in the international arena. We have a role to play in the manner that we conduct ourselves. We are regarded as one of the nations that are generally free of corruption. That is something to be valued. That is something to uphold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThis is also the nation where M\u0101ori language and culture is\u2014the only nation you\u2019d find that. That tikanga\u2014or that kaupapa, as my M\u0101ori Ministers often say\u2014is fundamental to the way that we conduct ourselves and host other people. So I think it is a significant organisation. We will get the chance to lead and chair many of these meetings; therefore, we have the opportunity to showcase who we are as a people, who we are as a nation, and how we prefer to conduct our business not only throughout New Zealand, around the Pacific region, but throughout the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m really just saying and encouraging all of our members in the House that I think we do have a responsibility in order to fulfil our obligations as a host. We revert to\u2014what is the M\u0101ori terminology\u2014manaakitanga to be able to host our people coming through: 21 leaders, world leaders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWhen we hosted in 1999, for the first time, where the President of China visited, I think that contributed to us having the first free-trade agreement with China. That\u2019s now also being renewed. So I think this is important. I underscore what the Deputy Prime Minister said: this is temporary legislation; it will expire at the end of the APEC meeting. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022f31ec2887f104ecb811ccb3d50a070e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f31ec2887f104ecb811ccb3d50a070e0\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, we are definitely going to support this legislation. It is important. It\u2019s our one big chance as a country. It\u2019s genuinely on the world stage. Of course, that provides a huge opportunity for us, but it also provides a fair bit of risk if something was to go wrong. If something did go wrong, we could potentially suffer reputational risk. We\u2019re a country that relies heavily on tourism, and, if we were seen to be a country that couldn\u2019t manage threats and risks, then it could have a massive negative impact in an important sector to us as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI just want to support the comments from the earlier speakers to say that I remember back in 1999\u2014the last time we hosted APEC. I was a serving police officer then. I remember the major drain on resources for us to try and police and secure APEC in 1999. I think that it\u2019s a sensible and a pragmatic idea to give the Commissioner of Police the ability to be able to access and work with our New Zealand defence forces. Our New Zealand defence forces are the best in the world, and I have absolute\u2014the highest level of\u2014confidence that, having them supporting our police in a civilian environment, they will not only conduct themselves professionally but also add a lot to, and a significant contribution to, the overall security profile that we\u2019re going to have to provide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI also think that, normally, I would be against allowing foreign diplomatic service officers to carry weapons in the country\u2014only because of the complex legal issues that would arise if they had to use their weapon and if there was an incident in this country. But I think, in a case like this, when we\u2019ve got world leaders coming here, I think, again, it\u2019s another very good pragmatic decision to allow the commissioner to have the flexibility to authorise the use of those or the ability for those diplomatic officers to be able to actually provide the level of protection that they want to be able to provide for their heads of States, bearing in mind that they are managing their own risks and they\u2019ll be aware of risks and threats that we\u2019re not aware of. So I think that was also another very good pragmatic decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe only thing that I would say\u2014and I would appeal to the Deputy Prime Minister on this\u2014is at the moment the House is dealing with a bill, the Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill. This bill is designed to be able to pick up someone on our border that is returning from overseas after having been involved in or supporting some type of terror activity. There is a massive hole that you could drive a truck through currently on that bill. The reason why it\u2019s being raised is because it does relate directly to this. The hole is, quite simply, this: we could have someone arrive on our border that\u2019s been involved in that type of activity and our law enforcement agencies\u2014whether it be Customs or Police\u2014don\u2019t have the ability to hold that person or detain that person for more than four hours. To have a control order put in place, even a temporary one, it has to go through a High Court procedure. That does not give them enough time. So we\u2019ve got the insidious situation where we could have someone arrive on our border and four hours later walk out into the general population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d appeal to the Deputy Prime Minister: support us in the fact that we\u2019re trying to cover off these gaps. We will be introducing, if we can\u2019t get the legislation through or the changes made in the select committee, a Supplementary Order Paper to this House to ensure that our police can actually detain that person for up to 72 hours, in which time the High Court can get a control order in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut, in principle, we\u2019re very happy to stand and support this bill and recommend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0fe3c5a814c46cb935171af25d91d51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0fe3c5a814c46cb935171af25d91d51\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. In August last year, the city of Auckland\u2014my home\u2014announced and welcomed confirmation that we would be hosting the APEC leaders\u2019 week in 2021. What we\u2019ve heard today, repeatedly, is all about the benefits of that APEC summit. We will have world leaders from some of the biggest trading nations from our region come together in New Zealand. All of that is true, and the benefits may well be vast. We are a small nation. We do need trade, and New Zealand should take every opportunity to showcase our nation and to build friendships and to contribute to a multilateral world order and to strengthen the rule of law internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo all of those things stand, but this bill isn\u2019t about the benefits of the APEC summit; this bill is about the imposition of certain security measures that are imported and imposed. They are not New Zealand\u2019s own security standards or policing methods, in fact. We are adopting these new standards while we lower the standards of safety for the rest of the public, the not-so-trade-valuable visitors who may be here, and other New Zealanders. We are lowering the standard of safety and of human rights. For those reasons, the Green Party will oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe see this bill and the measures that it proposes to impose as an overreach. We\u2019re seeing, and we\u2019ve heard repeatedly, that there\u2019ll be expanded powers given to foreign security agents to carry and import firearms that are otherwise restricted in New Zealand. Those are restricted firearms that will be allowed into New Zealand on an ad hoc basis, being carried by people who have not undergone police training or do not have the same culture of regulation as what we have out in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe see that as an overreach, and we see it, in particular, as unnecessary and counter-productive while New Zealand is itself undergoing reform of gun regulation. It makes no sense to go the other way to the way we have been going in this House and out there in our communities when it comes to regulating gun ownership and gun violence, because we have very recently learnt some lessons about the kinds of devastation that can occur when guns that should be restricted are out there on the streets. We\u2019ve heard again and again today that, should those firearms be used by those foreign agents, New Zealand law will apply\u2014we can charge people with murder or manslaughter, our self-defence laws will apply. But that is cold comfort to any victims that have been killed or injured, or their family or loved ones, because we have allowed the APEC summit to be made secure, so to speak, by way of putting more and more, what should be restricted, firearms out on our streets, being held by foreign agents that we didn\u2019t train, that are not used to interacting in our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWhat I will note as well, which is alarming any time we resort to armed policing in ordinary community settings, is that we know that overseas and here in Aotearoa policing and security agencies do treat different constituencies differently. We know because a loud and vast movement in the United States\u2014and the US is included in APEC\u2014Black Lives Matters is still fighting to stop the disproportionate harm, the deaths, murders, shall we say, by US police against men, women, and children who are of migrant, of colour, or of black communities. We know that in Hong Kong right now democracy protesters are being brutalised by Chinese-backed security agencies, and we know that right here, in our own nation, M\u0101ori and Pasifika communities are far, far more likely to be the victims of use of force by police. So we do have to acknowledge that, when we risk life and limb by arming police or security agencies from anywhere in the world or here, we\u2019re actually risking certain communities more disproportionately than others, and it is terrifying for those communities. So that\u2019s one thing that this bill allows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EAs if the risk to life and limb weren\u2019t enough, as if that wasn\u2019t enough to justify opposition to, or changing the types of, security measures that APEC has, obviously, imposed on New Zealand, there are also some serious concerns about human rights and civil liberties that are being impinged by the measures proposed by this bill. So we have, for example, police powers being given temporarily during the summit to restrict freedom of movement in certain roads, certain areas, and certain residential buildings. People living or visiting those areas or those buildings will, and may, be restricted by, again, these armed security officers or police. People may be required to show IDs. People may not be able to access their homes or the areas where they live, work, or need to visit. That\u2019s a power that we\u2019re giving away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe other thing we\u2019re doing, which is a little bit of an unknown, is we\u2019re allowing electronic so-called countermeasures to be taken, and this, again, is in the name of security. It\u2019s so that we know if electronic devices like phones are going to be used as bombs. Yes, we need to know if something is going to be bombed, but we don\u2019t actually know what these countermeasures are going to be, because they\u2019re going to be imposed by foreign agents. They may well include collecting data about where certain electronic devices are. So these are the privacy rights of ordinary New Zealanders or visitors to this nation during the summit\u2014to have their movements tracked and known, their devices accessed in ways that we are not going to be regulating. The only measure of security included in this bill against abuse of that power is that the foreign agents won\u2019t be allowed to share that information. Well, we know that privacy rights are breached the minute our information is accessed, our movements are tracked, and, again, it is cold comfort to a victim of a breach like that\u2014if they\u2019re being targeted by a Government as a protester, as an activist, or as an ordinary citizen\u2014that that Government has collected their information, tracked their whereabouts, but hasn\u2019t shared it. That\u2019s another power that we\u2019re giving away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EIt is concerning that at this moment in global history, where New Zealand stands as a beacon for things like kindness and progressive governance, instead of standing up to these measures, that we know have again and again been imposed by the international elite, we are, instead, bowing down. Instead of standing as an independent voice on the world stage, forging a path, showcasing our ways in terms of human rights, in terms of privacy rights, in terms of non-violence, we are, instead, adopting what has been imposed again and again, placing at risk the safety of our communities and lowering our standards of human rights. So the Green Party won\u2019t be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022d52897f99d764f99aa01405423950bd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d52897f99d764f99aa01405423950bd9\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, very pleased to support this bill. Look, I\u2019m disappointed the Greens are not\u2014and my next comments are not directed at Golriz Ghahraman herself, but the logic, or lack of, just being put forward by the Greens opposing this bill is just utter, utter nonsense and completely absurd on two levels. The impression that\u2019s been given is that New Zealand is opening its border to a whole lot of mercenaries\u2014untrained, according to the Green Party\u2014who are coming in to invade New Zealand over the course of a few days, take over the country, deploy themselves with all sorts of weaponry and destroy our country. She also says it\u2019s a disgrace and an undermining of rights. The thing about human rights is they always have to be balanced, and I hope the Green Party would understand that those people coming from overseas\u2014some of whom are constant targets of threats and harassment; in fact, often from socialists and from those on the left\u2014want and need protection. They have a right to their safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAll this bill is enabling is those highly trained protection specialists who accompany heads of State or heads of Government to be able to protect their charges. It is no different from when a Prime Minister of New Zealand or our head of State travels\u2014that they have their own security detail. There is absolutely no difference, and this bill is just providing that opportunity to make that legal. And one of the points, as we ended up in some, again, absurd situation that, you know, certain particular groups are going to be victimised because a whole series of bodyguards are protecting their charges\u2014again, hard to understand how that would happen. This is all under the control of the New Zealand Police. This is all to be led through the New Zealand Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EIn a press release, the Greens have indicated that New Zealand could do it on its own\u2014again, absolutely absurd. We have amazing security services. We have a wonderful Defence Force, fantastic police officers, but there\u2019s no way we have enough personnel to provide the security required. So what this bill is attempting to do, first and foremost, is engage our defence forces and particularly our special forces to be able to work with police and under police jurisdiction, and, as has been noted, allow the protection officers for those visiting dignitaries to be able to operate under police control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, the bill is coming to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. We look forward to drilling into this a bit further. I think, with any legislation, we do want to look into it more carefully. Gerry Brownlee has noted a small aspect, important, though, between the interplay of diplomatic immunity and making sure that those people are also\u2014well, how would they be treated under New Zealand law if an incident were to happen? One that I\u2019m particularly interested in is that speedy interchange, if you will, if needed, where constabulary powers can be given. Speaking to some of our Defence people and from some previous learnings, some of the processes in play to enable constabulary powers to be given, particularly under an emergency situation, need to be swift. So we\u2019re going to tease that out. I understand, from the Minister indicating, that we\u2019ve, effectively, got four months to sort this out. If anything, the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee is showing that it can work under pressure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. APEC is incredibly important and useful to New Zealand, and if there is one right that we need to emphasise today, it\u2019s the right to safety: the safety of New Zealanders, as an earlier speaker has indicated, but I would say that it\u2019s also the right of those visiting this fine country to be safe, to be able to do their job and represent their country in ours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022752632998ac2417ca73b71c98dcdeaea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022752632998ac2417ca73b71c98dcdeaea\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Ginny Andersen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022b95c1fe44eb84eada2fdde83051978d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b95c1fe44eb84eada2fdde83051978d0\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be able to speak on the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC 2021) Bill. To a great extent, it goes to the point\u2014and it\u2019s already been mentioned today\u2014how important our APEC friends are to us in order to sustain the ongoing wellbeing and economic development that New Zealand currently sustains. It\u2019s great to see that we have a fantastic opportunity on the global stage to be able to connect and demonstrate our value as a key player within the Pacific region. It does advance us, and it plays well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt has been a long time since 1999, the last time New Zealand hosted APEC, and the world has significantly changed in that time. In accordance with the changed dynamics in which New Zealand operates in a global context, it\u2019s important that we are adequately equipped to host our friends in our country and to be able to secure them to make sure that we have a safe and a well-run APEC in 2021. This bill does exactly that. It ensures that New Zealand police are adequately equipped to be able to ensure they have the resources they need in terms of both people and technology to give New Zealanders and our visitors safety and security during that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for temporary security and safety areas around key places and key meetings, as well as for motorcades during the three-week leaders\u2019 event. It\u2019s important to note that this legislation is, in fact, temporary. It provides just for the period of time in which we will be hosting this international event, and many aspects will only be enforced during the leaders\u2019 event. When all APEC meetings are concluded and finished and our visitors have left our shores, this legislation will expire and things will be the way they were. So I think that\u2019s an important point to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re really lucky to have this opportunity, and it\u2019s good to have a bill that makes sure that we provide accommodation, venues, key sites; that our roads are closed at the appropriate times; that we are securing our maritime areas and managing water areas surrounding hotels or other locations to make sure that the general public have a strong sense of feeling safe within New Zealand, at a time when many eyes internationally will be upon us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo this legislation, essentially, seeks to minimise the impact of APEC in 2021 on New Zealanders, and it\u2019s great to see support from across the other side of the House. It supports our preparation and also our ability to respond to any risks that may arise in 2021. It also means that we can welcome our guests with a strong sense of confidence that we can provide and be proud of the show that we will host in that time. It means that all those guests from APEC economies will operate in a safe and a secure environment that works to really enhance not only the economic prosperity of our country but also our long-term wellbeing. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u002298ab7f9731bf4e4196268a5e81a2c5a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298ab7f9731bf4e4196268a5e81a2c5a5\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National):\u003C/span\u003E Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation, it\u2019s a huge event: 21 countries, 21 world leaders, 12 months of a series of events, culminating in the leaders\u2019 week in November in 2021\u201420,000 people coming to New Zealand participating in that. Rightfully so, the world will be looking at New Zealand and how we handle this event, New Zealand being an original signatory to APEC in 1989 and hosting it in 1999. So many years have passed, and the change in the world scenario has greatly enhanced the need for security arrangements to be correctly set.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThe bill seeks to address just that, particularly dealing with security for the visiting world leaders, making sure that the protection they need will be handled well and sufficiently, rightfully placing control over into the hands of the Commissioner of Police, assisted by the New Zealand military, who will be trained and empowered as constables. It seems that all of this is absolutely necessary so that people who will be coming to and watching New Zealand over 2021, over the whole APEC, will see and experience a New Zealand that is, at the world stage, exceeding its abilities and doing so well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EHaving in the past been involved in arranging for the visit of two Philippine presidents in New Zealand in 2012, and recently, the times that we spent dealing with security discussions with the accompanying security detail of the presidents were long, long hours, and the diplomacy of the New Zealand police force in having to deal with a foreign security detail was amazing to watch. But that was just one president, and we have 21 world leaders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThe need for security is something that most New Zealanders might find unusual, out of our experiential worlds, but the world leaders that will be coming, where they are experiencing huge threats to themselves in what they do, their protection detail are, to a high degree, tasked with making sure that they\u2019re OK, and that\u2019s what they will bring with them when they come here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThe world has also changed in many ways: wireless technology, and the ease of getting into a transport vehicle and ramming into a crowd has been shown to be very effective in many parts of the world already. So, rightfully so for APEC in New Zealand, focus must be on security, and this bill just does exactly that. We support this bill. Madam Speaker, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u002293bea735f9fd491fb21dc616f1839ada\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293bea735f9fd491fb21dc616f1839ada\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A-SUISUIKI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s an absolute honour for me to stand today to speak on the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC 2021) Bill. I want to remind the House that in 1999, our leader at the time was a woman, and, again, the world is going to look at us in terms of the leadership of our Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9b17901b666420ea1a44572eaa63dd1\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: She won\u2019t be PM then. It\u2019s post-2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259e50bfc1ec04db783487a20efa75b1c\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2019A-SUISUIKI\u003C/span\u003E: OK, if you get my dates wrong. But I also want to acknowledge the speech from the Rt Hon Winston Peters, the Minister of Foreign Affairs. In his first two minutes, what stood out for me were the words \u201C[building] strong, trusting relationships\u201D and New Zealand taking leadership in this region, which is vitally important. He spoke about how it will be \u201Cour chance to host world leaders and international media, [to] show New Zealand [can do it] and how we can do it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EI want to also acknowledge the words that the Hon Aupito William Sio spoke about, that it\u2019s inherently just a New Zealand value, and that\u2019s about the value of manaakitanga. The value of manaakitanga is about how the travellers to our shores experience how we host them\u2014experience our hospitality, experience how we care for them as visitors, and experience how we as a people live in this land that we live in in terms of Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EThat also is about the policy objectives of this bill. It is about safety and security. The policy objectives of the bill are about supporting the safe and secure APEC of 2021 events for all world leaders, attendees, and the general public. But that is also about the experience of the traveller reaching our shores, and it\u2019s about the experience of those who are on these shores and how we will host our travellers with manaakitanga. On that note, I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022831f6d480caa418c8cfe79052ec147ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022831f6d480caa418c8cfe79052ec147ca\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Well, yet again, the Greens have demonstrated why they are an irresponsible party that can\u2019t be trusted in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAPEC is very important to New Zealand, as numerous speakers have noted. We haven\u2019t hosted it since 1999\u2014and it is in 2021, I say to Anahila Kanongata\u2019a-Suisuiki, the previous speaker; not next year\u2014and it will provide an opportunity for New Zealand to talk to Prime Ministers from around the world and world leaders but also to show off New Zealand to the world. The APEC in 1999\u2014some members will remember it. I was 16, I think, at the time. It\u2019s an opportunity to show New Zealand to the world, so we\u2019ve got to get it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will not even vote for this bill to go to a select committee. There are, I think, legitimate issues you can talk about when it comes to people coming into the country, having, essentially, a waiver of New Zealand law temporarily to provide security. There are legitimate questions around that and around the appropriateness of special legislation around special events, and in a perfect world, that\u2019s not how you would make law in the country. But the Greens say, \u201CNo, no. Actually, it\u2019s so beyond the pale we can\u2019t even send the bill to a committee.\u201D So, yet again, the National Party is going to help out the Government and make sure that the bill can go to a committee, because we\u2019re a responsible party of Government and we realise that you actually need sensible measures in order to host events like this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWhen you\u2019ve got, I hope, the President of the United States\u2014whoever that is\u2014coming to New Zealand and you\u2019ve got world leaders with millions of people behind them and economies worth trillions of dollars, and we\u2019re a small country of not yet 5 million people, you do have to make sensible precautions and sensible measures. So the bill does that, and, yet again, the National Party will save the Government and provide sensible, constructive support to make sure that they can actually govern the country in the interests of New Zealanders. It\u2019s a shame the Green Party won\u2019t even vote for it at first reading to send it to a committee. That just demonstrates why they will always be a minority party that New Zealanders do not trust with the Treasury benches. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022fce9ddbfd42f4565916b9c2854171eb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fce9ddbfd42f4565916b9c2854171eb8\u0022\u003EPRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is pretty exciting that New Zealand gets to host APEC 2021, because it gives us a chance to show our leadership, right here in the region. Of course, having been part of APEC since 1989, with APEC being a forum that has facilitated economic growth, cooperation, trade, and investment in this region, it has been a really good thing for us. So to be able to host world leaders and international media is a great thing. However, as others have said before me, we need to make sure we do it well. As hosts, we need to be responsible hosts and make both our guests feel safe but also members of the New Zealand public feel safe at the same time as well, and that\u2019s really what this bill does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EAPEC New Zealand, which is the team lead by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, has analysed the situation and found that we need some specific legislation in order to be able to play our role as good hosts and make sure that everyone feels safe when they\u2019re here, and that\u2019s what this bill is about. It\u2019s about ensuring that the New Zealand Police have the resources that they need to be able to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s just one point that I wanted to emphasise, in case there is some fear that this will be opening up our borders to a whole bunch of people with weapons coming in here to New Zealand. I just want to emphasise that during the leaders\u2019 events period, there will be certain foreign protection officers who will be allowed to carry firearms, subject to the approval of the Commissioner of Police and subject to conditions that the commissioner may impose, like the type of weapon and like the number of weapons that can be brought in that is appropriate. They will be carried only by highly trained protection officers while they are here protecting their leaders. These weapons will also be recorded on entry and exit from New Zealand, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe other point that I just wanted to emphasise is that this is for a limited period of time, it\u2019s for a specific purpose, and it\u2019s to keep those who are coming here safe. Different countries have different levels of security requirements, and we\u2019re catering for that as a good host. That\u2019s pretty much what this bill is about. Clause 3 of the bill provides that the bill will self-repeal on the close of the leaders\u2019 event period, which is 21 November 2021. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESo this is a practical bill that will go a long way to keep our guests who come here for APEC 2021 safe and it will protect New Zealanders during that period, as well. It\u2019s for a specific purpose and for a specific time, and I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022794cb816fd84436896cd73a9fa4af019\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC 2021) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 111\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; New Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC 2021) Bill be reported to the House by 1 April 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000494\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000495\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00224b2f580cefeb4fcb9ec86da35e3bc11c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b2f580cefeb4fcb9ec86da35e3bc11c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Foreign Affairs: I move, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6be508f10ad4586ab80d776275e92c9\u0022\u003EReferendums Framework Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002233184bb45a24462b9fb87bff146cfaa0\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3083fadfb9a4b38ae38909331edb134\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3083fadfb9a4b38ae38909331edb134\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is in committee on the Referendums Framework Bill. Members, this bill has been drafted with an extra clause that sits outside the parts\u2019 structure, which will give rise to an extra debate. The committee will first debate each of the four parts separately. These parts form the substance of the bill. The committee will then debate clause 3 separately. This is the clause that would repeal the bill in 2022. After voting on the Schedules, the committee will then debate the title and commencement provisions at clauses 1 and 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6aa0c6eb90a41378679ccf29fd5f5dc\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002241ceeaa3dae44795b1b25d9d410d299c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241ceeaa3dae44795b1b25d9d410d299c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E The National opposition to this bill is so well expressed in clause 4, which really does misrepresent what the Government is attempting with this referendum bill. It\u2019s really important to understand the background. Since 1853, every referendum that\u2019s been held at a general election has been authorised by the Parliament, every party in this Parliament has had an opportunity to have a say, and the public have had an opportunity on the questions. This is really an exercise in the Government pacifying its Green and New Zealand First parties by undermining that very strong convention of referenda only being held at elections with the authority of the Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, to explain why we should move away from 160 years of electoral history where every single referendum has been determined by the Parliament. I\u2019d also love the Minister in the chair to give some explanation of the dog\u2019s breakfast of different ways that the Government is handling the referendum. There is good reason to be cautious in this area. We know the Mother of Parliaments is facing the greatest difficulties in hundreds of years as a consequence of the Brexit referendum and the constitutional crisis it has triggered between the result of that referendum and the parliamentary powers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019ve got here is this: when it comes to the cannabis referendum, the public is being asked to vote on a bill of which they have no idea what the legislation will be. The legislation won\u2019t be passed. On the euthanasia referendum, we have a different approach. Goodness knows we may also end up with a referendum on abortion, albeit I find it completely bizarre that the Minister in the chair supports a referendum on euthanasia, but does not support one on abortion. I\u2019d love him to explain the rationale for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI became exceedingly nervous when I heard the comments in the second reading speech from the Green Party on this bill, where they talked about the wording. If there was a referendum process that was going to be manipulated, it was her saying that the question would be: \u201CDo New Zealanders support the effective regulation of cannabis?\u201D Wow. Is that the sort of question that we\u2019re going to get in respect of this referendum? Is that a fair way to express the issue? Every member of this committee knows that the way you frame the question has a huge effect on the result. If you ask New Zealanders in polls whether they support assisted suicide, most New Zealanders say, \u201CNo.\u201D; if you ask them whether they support end of life choice, most of them in the polls say, \u201CYes.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWell, guess what! The Government does support euthanasia, and that\u2019s why they are framing the word in that way. I\u2019d love to know from the Minister in the chair, why, through this bill and the purpose of this bill in Part 1, is he wanting to cut the Parliament out of having any say on the wording on the referendum that is proposed in respect of cannabis? Let\u2019s be clear and honest about what really is going on. They\u2019ve done a dirty deal with the Greens to cut out the Parliament, to cut across constitutional norms, because that\u2019s the deal they did to be the Government. It is as unprincipled as that. That\u2019s what really drives this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe other part I\u2019d love to get an explanation from the Minister about is that all this power is being transferred to this Government but not to any future Government. Now, what sort of a dirty deal is that? No wonder the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee said this bill is unfair, that it\u2019s undemocratic, and that it breaches New Zealand\u2019s long conventions around the way in which our democracy functions. This is the third time this Government is riding roughshod over electoral law. It\u2019s a sign of a weak Government that has had to do dirty deals\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8885bec6631495dbc246a3c2580363a\u0022\u003EHon Aupito William Sio\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a familiar speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022006a360e5f684224842bcc3b6b365397\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d love the member to explain why we are having a referendum on abortion but not euthanasia. I\u2019d love the member who has interjected to explain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdaad39887e3478481d6587cc399a2e7\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. It\u2019s the other way round\u2014the other way round. Having a referendum\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298c1049d43da4379a2c8a5886791039c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, having a referendum on euthanasia. I\u2019d love a member of the Government to explain why there is that contradiction. I\u2019d also love the Minister in the chair to explain why the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee, in their submission to the Justice Committee, raised very serious concerns about this bill. I\u2019ve never heard, in my nearly 30 years as an MP, public servants come to a committee and say that a bill is a threat to New Zealand\u2019s democratic traditions, that a bill involves a significant transfer of power from the Parliament to the Cabinet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b0d9f3313c249ca81b2e46668454690\u0022\u003ERaymond Huo\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what they said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208e69ead02b7458fbe85ebe166eccef3\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s exactly what they said. Well, I ask the member Raymond Huo to pick up the submission and read, Mr Raymond Huo, exactly what it said. They said that this bill is contrary to the fair administration of elections. I\u2019ll tell the member why. The reason why you can have huge influence over an election by determining the topic of a referendum is because by the topic you choose, you will affect the turnout. I think the Greens are so keen to have a referendum on cannabis at the next election because all those people that have a liberal view of cannabis will turn out and that might up their vote. I think that is manipulation. I think that\u2019s wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the further explanation I\u2019d love members, like Mr Huo, opposite to explain. In the last Government, we had a debate on a referendum bill on the flag referendum. Members opposite argued that it was undemocratic that the public only had five minutes each to be able to comment on the wording of the referendum. That\u2019s what Labour members said. They said it was outrageous. They said that it was undemocratic because the public only had five minutes at the select committee to comment on the wording of the referendum. The bit I agreed with then was they said the wording of the referendum on the topics is very important. But that\u2019s clearly what this bill does. The public get no opportunity to have a say at all about the topic of the referendum. Whether it was on euthanasia or whether it\u2019s on recreational cannabis, the Cabinet simply decides itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s a further point I\u2019d love the Minister in the chair to address. His colleague the Minister for New Zealand First said the reason we\u2019re advancing this bill is because the Government doesn\u2019t trust the Parliament\u2014the Government doesn\u2019t trust the Parliament. I have never heard\u2014and it is insulting to this institution. It\u2019s even more insulting to the memorials on the walls of this Parliament of people who gave their lives so that we could live in a democratic country in which Parliament was sovereign to have a Government Minister say that you can\u2019t trust the Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI wonder how many New Zealanders would say, \u201CYup, I really trust Winston Peters before the Parliament. I\u2019d much rather he made all the decisions, rather than the Parliament.\u201D I suspect there would be less people than on one hand that would actually hold that view. I\u2019d love to know from the Minister in the chair whether he agrees with the statement from Tracey Martin, New Zealand First Minister, who, in justifying the transfer of power from Parliament to just the Cabinet to decide on the topic and the wording of referendum\u2014that he agrees with Tracey Martin\u2019s statement that you just can\u2019t trust the Parliament. Let\u2019s be clear, when she said you can\u2019t trust the Parliament, she was also saying you can\u2019t trust the public, because the significance of this bill is that the public is cut out of having any say in the referendum topics and the referendum question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo this is a noxious bill. If National brought this bill into Parliament during the last session, there would have been howls of horror from members opposite. It\u2019s not right\u2014it is not right. The decisions on referenda should rest with the Parliament. They should have the opportunity to have a public say. We are doing, and being part of, a dirty deal to simply satisfy the internal politics of the Government. This Parliament should have no bar of the significant changes that are being made and manipulation of the system in which our country has referenda at general elections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6e5f923ad414cafb376f75ccb3e30c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6e5f923ad414cafb376f75ccb3e30c5\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, it\u2019s sadly predictable that the member who has just resumed his seat, Nick Smith, says the only political strategy in anything is to catastrophise everything\u2014just as with the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Act, the world was going to stop spinning on its axis, and politics in New Zealand was going to be, sort of, ended for all time. In fact, the only party that had the opportunity to exercise any powers under that Act was the National Party, and life carried on. Life just sailed on, because what that member failed to get is that in politics we are dealing with people, and I\u2019m talking about politicians now, and politicians make judgments. Just as every other citizen does. People make decisions and they make judgments, and they\u2019re not automatons and they\u2019re not robots and they don\u2019t behave like Nick Smith, which is a saving grace for us all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to make these comments: we already have, on our statute books, a piece of legislation promoted and encouraged by that member\u2019s party, it\u2019s called the Referenda (Postal Voting) Act, that allows for questions in referendums to be set by Order in Council, which is what this bill does. This bill is not novel in that regard. It follows\u2014and I\u2019m trying to flatter them now\u2014the National Party\u2019s precedent that they set in the Referenda (Postal Voting) Act. And, you know, it looks good on that statute book; it will look good on this one as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe member asked a question about ways of handling referendums. He is right about Brexit, because\u2014talk about political judgment\u2014there was a political judgment, a political promise made on the fly in the middle of an election campaign for internal purposes of the British Conservative Party, who would know, and they embarked on a referendum with no substance at all about what it was about, there was a campaign that was full of misleading statements, and a result was achieved that has caused that country chaos for the best part now of three years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe whole reason for having a piece of draft legislation\u2014which is yet subject to a cross-party process, which I expect will happen before Christmas\u2014is exactly that, that by the time New Zealand voters get to voting booths at whatever time next year, they will have a fully drafted piece of legislation; every right, every power, and every aspect of it will be known. There will be plain English explanations of it, people will know about it and know where to go to get accurate information about it. All of that will be the subject of cross-party consultation and dialogue, because that is the right way to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe have two referendums now lined up for the 2020 general election: the End of Life Choice Act provides for a referendum in that piece of legislation, and there will be one about cannabis because that is the political promise that has been made. New Zealand voters will get a chance to decide whether or not we want to change the legal status of each of those things that are covered by that piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ETangentially, as the member Dr Nick Smith has asked in his comments just now: why have a referendum on end of life choice? Well, that was a decision that Parliament made. Why not on abortion? Well, Parliament hasn\u2019t got to that point\u2014and, in any event, 13,200 abortions are carried out in New Zealand; that is not a new thing. There is no statutory mandated end of life choice decision taken. That bill is about a fundamentally different status for that decision coming into our society, and New Zealanders should have a say on that. So that is the difference. I\u2019m sorry that some members, even if they\u2019ve been here for nearly 30 years, kind of don\u2019t get that. I actually know that the Hon Dr Nick Smith is intellectually better than that, than his speech actually gives rise to. Now, if he wants to compare about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5cec65ce5ce4b09b9083d21759d7ae1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Always play the man; can\u2019t handle the argument, so play the ball.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5aca06521c6434facae60fb03aa12db\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014criticisms of the\u2014there I am trying to say something nice about the Hon Dr Nick Smith, about his intellectual capability, and I get accused of trying to do him down; I have more respect for him than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut I just wanted to say this about, you know, those\u2014the Legislation and Design Advisory Committee and others\u2014criticising the legislation: I have to tell you there are a lot of independent bodies absolutely horrified at a piece of legislation that abolished the right of Cantabrians to have a democratic right to elect their regional council representatives. I hate to tell the House this\u2014I hate to have to remind the House of this\u2014but the sponsor of that legislation was the great constitutionalist the Hon Dr Nick Smith. So, look, you know, it\u2019s OK for some things; it\u2019s not OK for others. We cannot have people that unprincipled, sort of, getting up and lecturing me in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022587ee75b276c4120bb62f33202255e0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022587ee75b276c4120bb62f33202255e0b\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to speak in the committee of the whole House stage of the Referendums Framework Bill. My first question to the Minister in the chair, Andrew Little, is: what is the plural of \u201Creferendum\u201D? I note that elsewhere in the same legislation, he refers to \u201Creferenda\u201D, and that\u2019s presumably because a previous piece of legislation has that reference. In his comments just now, he got it right, actually, one out of two times in relation to that existing Act\u2014so 50 percent is probably as good as it gets. So that\u2019s my first question, which I don\u2019t expect an answer on particularly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMore seriously, but remaining within that purpose clause: why is that we are concerning ourselves with this legislation only with the first general election after the commencement of this Act? Why is it not that the Government would have provisions that were indefinite in the usual way, until such time as they are repealed and/or replaced? Of course, the Government has previously said that they could allow themselves in a further term, were they to be elected\u2014which, of course, is no certain thing; very uncertain thing, in fact\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223524e0caa11141a88b981f421d7c2e0d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Penk. If I just could just draw your attention to the fact that I am of the view that that\u2019s in Part 3, and we\u2019re debating Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3c066b18f6641a2ae574b0f3495e247\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Respectfully, the purpose does specifically refer to the purpose being in relation to the first general election after the commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a73f2578efed4e7c8a10313dcf13540b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Good. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270370d061c5345d99a3494d7da5c0522\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. So I\u2019m interested to know why it is that the Government has not adopted an approach that would be normal, whereby you would simply have a piece of legislation that continues until such time it is actively discontinued. Elsewhere in the bill, there\u2019s a repeal provision, a sunset clause, but I won\u2019t get to that at this point, because we\u2019re on Part 1 of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe next aspect that I\u2019m interested to know the Minister\u2019s thoughts on and the Government thinking on\u2014also within Part 1, of course\u2014is in clause 5, the interpretation clause: \u201Cgeneral election\u201D. So the meaning of that, I suppose, is clear enough, but, again, questions arise. At least hypothetically there\u2019s a situation where a referendum that\u2019s intended to be conducted by the Government isn\u2019t arranged in time ahead of the 2020 election, and I\u2019m thinking specifically in relation to the possible legalisation or decriminalisation of recreational cannabis. It might be the Government\u2014or perhaps the Parliament or whoever; it could in fact be just the Government\u2014that arrives at a decision to hold such a referendum, but that\u2019s not reached, let\u2019s say, by March of next year, in time for that to be on the ballot paper for the 2020 general election. There might still be a general election after that before the repeal date. So with that theoretical possibility out there, I\u2019d be interested to know why the Minister has decided, presumably as a conscience decision, not simply to allow it to be the first general election after the commencement of the Act or the first general election after an Order in Council or Act declares such a referendum to be held, provided that it\u2019s before the expiry of the Act\u2014whichever the first of those, I think would be the logical way to construct such a provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI should acknowledge, in relation to that, the Minister has said that he expects prior to Christmas it would be that the drugs-related referendum would be established by the Government parties. But, of course, expectation and reality are not always the same thing. I\u2019ll say no more than that on that particular point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI also wonder if the Minister can explain why it is that a referendum\u2014and the meaning of that within the interpretation clause is a referendum declared by an Act or by an Order in Council\u2014would be available to the Government to set up a regime where it would be an Act of Parliament that would declare that a referendum is to take place, rather than allowing the Government simply to do that. And it could be, then, that the Cabinet and the ministry, the executive branch, could be allowed to implement the mechanics and come up with the rules surrounding that. That\u2019s not a particularly attractive proposition so far as we are concerned on this side of the House, but at least it would be a tighter regime than what is currently suggested in that meaning of \u201Creferendum\u201D in the interpretation clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy next question\u2014and I note that the Minister is diligently writing these down, for which I thank him and I look forward to the responses shortly, no doubt\u2014is in relation to the interaction with the Citizens Initiated Referenda Act. I\u2019ve brought that up for two reasons: one is that it uses the plural of referenda correctly, but also because there is no other reference within Part 1 to that under Schedule 1. So I wonder if the Minister can advise\u2014obviously with recourse to his officials, if that\u2019s helpful\u2014the interaction of this piece of legislation with that other Act that, it seems to me, could, at least potentially, be relevant. For that to be true on a factual basis, it would have to be that there was a citizens initiated referendum between now and the 2020 election, but that\u2019s not impossible. So I wonder if that\u2019s a deliberate act\u2014and I say that with a lowercase \u201CA\u201D\u2014on the part of the Government to preclude that possibility, or if it\u2019s something that simply hasn\u2019t been contemplated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy final question is, really, in relation to the purpose of the Act or the purpose of the bill. There is a whole purpose section, of course, but I wonder what the purpose of the purpose is\u2014what\u2019s, sort of, the underlying problem that is sought to be fixed by way of this legislation, and why we do not simply have, for example, the existing regime, which has almost invariably\u2014or invariably, depending who you listen to\u2014been the case whereby an Act of Parliament can actually set out all the rules of the game instead of having the sort of hybrid model that we\u2019ve got on the Table in front of us today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ll leave it there, at least for now, in relation to Part 1, and look forward to responses that the Minister is able to give on those particular points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u00225080a00a116640f28cb64550c6544bdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225080a00a116640f28cb64550c6544bdf\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. On the crucial matter before the House this afternoon, there are two definitions for the plural of \u201Creferendum\u201D, and there is \u201Creferenda\u201D and \u201Creferendums\u201D. I\u2019m in the \u201Creferendums\u201D camp. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4ce6716c696497e809d77d1179f74f1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we agree on something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022991f369b55a344eb9eda06ec39949adb\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! We agree\u2014we agree. I did study Latin at one point, but I do think that there is an argument for \u201Creferenda\u201D. I guess the only plea I make is that there is consistency throughout the bill as to which one we come down on the side of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI would like to make a comment around the difficulty in having an actual debate with Nick Smith. That is, it would be really good to actually have a proper debate about some of the matters that are upsetting the National Party on this particular piece of legislation, but it\u2019s so difficult, because\u2014and I think the Minister used the word \u201Ccatastrophising\u201D, that it\u2019s the sky is falling in, to the point where it\u2019s impossible to actually discuss and to actually have the debate. Unfortunately, and I don\u2019t want to be unparliamentary, but when Chris Bishop gave his speech yesterday afternoon in the second reading, there were points of argument that could actually be debated which would have been quite useful to have in the discussion this afternoon, but, unfortunately, that\u2019s not to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EOne of the main points to make about this bill is that it\u2019s a mechanical bill. It doesn\u2019t deal with substance. It\u2019s a mechanical bill that sets up a framework for activities to occur. Yes, it runs out after the 2020 election, but as the Minister said in his speech when he got up before, there\u2019s precedent for that from the National Party, so it\u2019s a bit hard to know what the substance of that particular argument is. On the argument around the constitutional outrage that the substance of the question in the cannabis referendum will not initially come before the Parliament, there is a process which was set out, and I explained that yesterday, where it can go to the Regulations Review Committee and where there can be a vote against it and it can actually come back to this House for debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EBut the fact is\u2014and this is where, again, the Hon Dr Nick Smith is wrong, plain wrong\u2014around the constitutional precedents for referendums. I\u2019ll just read the advice that came from the officials on this matter. We won\u2019t rely on what, you know, is being said by politicians. I\u2019ll read the advice of what was said by officials to the Justice Committee. They said that \u201CThe decision on whether to put a matter to a referendum is primarily a political matter. There are very few statutory requirements or almost no restrictions on what matters are put to referendum or how such decisions are made.\u201D Shall I read that sentence again\u2014what do you people think? \u201CThere are very few statutory requirements or almost no restrictions on what matters are put to referendum or how such decisions are made. The appropriate level of parliamentary oversight over such decisions and the appropriate extent of public and/or parliamentary input into the wording of a referendum question are matters of political judgment. Respecting this, we have not made any recommendations on the submissions.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ENow, Nick Smith can carry on like a pork chop to his heart\u2019s content, but the fact is that he\u2019s wrong and that his constitutional outrage is, you know, reflected in almost every speech that he gives in this House. If he wants to be taken seriously on any matter and for there to be a proper debate and discussion about it, let\u2019s try and bring the tone down. Let\u2019s stop the shouting and actually have a reasonable debate, because that\u2019s what the House is for. I\u2019ll no doubt make other contributions, but the fact is that he\u2019s wrong on that matter and it is a matter of political judgment and there could be a chance for it to come back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6b357c9fdff4b189fe187e1c634c18f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6b357c9fdff4b189fe187e1c634c18f\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Interesting isn\u2019t it, that when the going gets tough, Labour descend into personal abuse and personal attack, you know, and this very passive-aggressive type of parliamentary argument where a member\u2014and, indeed, a Minister\u2014will get to their feet and call for some real debate, and then in an extremely aggressive yet passive manner undermine and denigrate members over the House. I regret that very much in the debate on Part 1 of the Referendums Framework Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBoth the Minister in the chair and the Hon Clare Curran cited the Environment Canterbury (Temporary Commissioners and Improved Water Management) Act, which took place back in about 2009, I think, or 2010, from memory, and said this is the precedent, you know; these things are the same. They\u2019re not the same. With respect, what is happening here with this Referendums Framework Bill and what happened back with the appointment of commissioners for Environment Canterbury (ECan) is\u2014there is nothing similar. In the first instance, this bill deals with electoral law, and there are conventions of this House which are being ignored in the development of this bill, and I\u2019ll talk about that a little bit more. But secondly, the ECan commissioners bill was there to solve a problem, and that problem was that Environment Canterbury utterly failed to notify and even get an operative water plan, much to the detriment of water quality in Canterbury. So if that side of the Government of the day wishes to get up and criticise a Minister in the Hon Dr Nick Smith, who had the fortitude to call in the councillors and appoint commissioners in order to solve a problem, then good on them, but I certainly don\u2019t agree. We certainly know that under the tenure of the commissioners\u2014and yes, I am coming back to the bill, Madam Chair\u2014there was a significant advance in water quality and allocation that ECan could not achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESo on two counts, I utterly reject any notion of similarity. In fact, the only problem that the Government is trying to solve in this bill is its rather tricky coalition agreements. For that, I think this bill does not deserve to have any kind of praise heaped upon it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a1f325bf19b46398e835fbc5240869f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I just wonder if the member could turn to Part 1 of the bill now. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248727260e16f499c90cbf127d2021e73\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, thank you. Thank you. What I was doing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceb7efc194764c1e97e5f0b9b4a43a8f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand what you were doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb0db05813c5480faf9b495e6431bb32\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014was a preamble to Part 1 of the bill, and so now I will move back to my point around the conventions of electoral law, because in the preliminary provisions, of course, clause 4 provides for one or more referenda to be held in conjunction with the next general election. My contention is that for a number of years in New Zealand, electoral law has been the matter of a Justice Committee inquiry into the general election and also into the local election. Now, the question I have for the Minister is why not use that well-understood parliamentary process for determining whether there were to be referenda held at the next general election? The process is there. It is a standing committee of Parliament. The Justice Committee every three years turns its attention to this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EIt is not the Opposition\u2019s position that the inquiry into the 2017 general election was commenced in a timely manner. It could well have been generated on the first meeting of the committee, which has happened in previous parliaments. The fact that it was not should not be an impediment for a consideration of referenda attached to the next general election, 2020, having to go outside of that process. Even to today, the select committee has not yet reported back on the inquiry into the 2017 general election. So I would like the Minister to explain to the committee just why this issue could not have been considered within that context, allowing experts in the field\u2014of which there are many in electoral law who come to the Justice Committee to give their view. [Bell rung] Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc829df2656740ddb2ca360cc8a719df\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I give the member another call, I\u2019d really encourage her to speak to Part 1 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d74500e7eb64d26be1c25fd650ed462\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. So in the context of an inquiry into the general election, it is not too late for the Minister to invite, perhaps, the chair of that committee to extend the report back. The reality is that constitutional electoral matters fall well within the purview of that examination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESo finally on Part 1 in my contribution, I want to mention clause 5: the \u201Creferendum\u201D is defined to mean a referendum that has been declared by Order in Council, so thereby subverting, also, what has been common practice in New Zealand. It does seem to me that the purpose of this bill, including Part 1 and other parts to which we will have something to comment on, is excluding input from the New Zealand public. It\u2019s not good enough to say that the framework bill\u2014and I don\u2019t also agree that this is just a framework bill\u2014with its select committee stage, which has been and gone where the public have been able to submit, is in any way making up for the lack of public engagement by way of a select committee process to determine the wording of the referenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESo, Madam Chair, I thank you for your indulgence but there were several points I wanted to make. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022003014bef24c471c996f266b14e76fb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022003014bef24c471c996f266b14e76fb9\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to respond to a couple of the points raised, in particular by the member Chris Penk. I\u2019m very thankful for his contributions; they\u2019re always thoughtful and, I think, always well presented. I\u2019m not going to get into plurals of referendum. I think that\u2019s been disposed of and the Clerk has approved the title of the bill\u2014that\u2019s the only thing that matters, really.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe member raised the question about the drafting of the bill in relation to the fact that the referendum is to be held in conjunction with the first general election after the passage of the bill, as of the commencement of the Act. That is a more felicitous expression, I think, than his alternative proposal, that actually sounded very conflicted, with all due respect. I think people are very clear what this applies to. A bit like some of the other areas of electoral law that this Government has been prevailed upon to consider, that is in the context of an overarching piece of advice that I\u2019ve had, which is that the reality is our electoral law\u2014with separate bits of legislation relating to different types of referendum sort of bolted on to it\u2014is kind of grown like Topsy. It\u2019s a 1956 piece of law with MMP jammed into it, and not a great deal else. It is needing of a ground-up review. So I am foreshadowing that following the next general election, should any of the parties in Government be in a position to do so, this House should expect they will be engaged in a ground-up review of the Electoral Act. So we\u2019re not trying to legislate too far ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe member refers to the definition of referendum. That definition covers the different sources of referendum that might happen. We now have one mandated by the End of Life Choice Act, and we can have one that comes through an Order in Council provision, which is what this bill, effectively, provides for. So it covers all those possibilities, and it therefore achieves what is needed in order to get those questions answered by the electorate in next year\u2019s general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe member referred to the citizens initiated referendum process, and worries that something like a referendum question might come up through that process\u2014and I simply point out to him that that legislation is a recurring process for getting out a citizens initiated referendum which starts with a petition to Parliament of quite humungous proportions: I think 10 percent of the electorate has to sign up to it. In the end this bill is about preparing ourselves for the next general election. And really, in answer to the comments from the Hon Jacqui Dean, it is giving the Electoral Commission enough time to do their preparation to do that so that it can be organised. So I don\u2019t anticipate there would be referendum questions coming from any other source. There will be two questions in next year\u2019s general election, and these will be them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ETo answer the Hon Jacqui Dean\u2019s question, I go back to the point about timeliness. We need to pass this legislation to give the Electoral Commission the mandate to organise these referendums on these questions for 2020; anything beyond that we\u2019ll come back to in the more thorough going review of our electoral law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9e30bf33eb94e1c9797f514c163d0a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9e30bf33eb94e1c9797f514c163d0a0\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I firstly want to respond to the comment from the Minister about rewriting our electoral laws. Nothing gives me more nervousness, and I\u2019ll tell you why. The John Key and previous National Governments have had an absolute policy that electoral law, including this bill and this part, are sacrosanct\u2014we don\u2019t have a constitution\u2014and will always involve consultation with the Opposition parties. In every electoral bill that was advanced by a Minister of Justice under a National Government, there was consultation with the Opposition. There was zero consultation on this bill. There was zero consultation on the waka hopping bill. There was zero consultation on the Electoral Amendment Bill. The part that is dangerous about the Minister in the chair is he believes it\u2019s up to the Government to write the electoral laws to suit the Government of the day; that\u2019s morally wrong and we will challenge it at every step of the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI secondly want to challenge the Labour view that there\u2019s nothing in this bill that breaks conventions. They challenge the notion that referendum at general elections are determined by Parliament. I tell you what conventions are: when something\u2019s been done a particular way for 160 years. For 160 years\u2014whether they\u2019ve been referendum on compulsory military training, whether it\u2019s been referendum on our alcohol laws, whether it\u2019s been referendum on the four-year term or MMP, in every single one of them the decision on the topic and the wording has been one for Parliament. And so it is straight crock when Labour members say that this bill does not change the conventions. You bet it does. When something\u2019s been done a particular way for 165 years since 1853, it is a convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a very important part of clause 5 that says that the decision on the referendum topic and the wording is entirely one to be made by Order in Council\u2014entirely one for the Cabinet. Let\u2019s be clear what Parliament\u2019s doing. If the Minister and his colleagues in Cabinet want to have 4, 5, 6, 10, 20 referendum at the election, that\u2019s it; Parliament\u2019s giving them the power\u2014it\u2019s their decision. I wonder what Labour members opposite would think if a National Government said, \u201COh, without coming to Parliament we\u2019re just going to have a referendum on getting rid of the M\u0101ori seats.\u201D I\u2019ll tell you what, I\u2019ll make a bet: the forecourt of Parliament would have thousands and thousands of protesters. They would be screaming from the rooftops. That is why\u2014as my colleagues Jacqui Dean and Chris Penk have pointed out\u2014they only want this extra power to go to Cabinet while they\u2019re in the Cabinet room. They actually don\u2019t want a future National Government\u2014that may be closer than what they think\u2014to have the powers that are available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want a very simple and important question to be answered by the Minister: does he expect the cannabis referendum to be binding? It\u2019s actually pretty important. I think New Zealanders will want to know whether his expectation of it is that it will be a binding referendum. It\u2019s pretty crude, because New Zealanders aren\u2019t going to have the normal say about the wording of that referendum. We\u2019re not going to have a bill pass through the Parliament; as we did on MMP, on alcohol, and all the other referendum. The Minister does need to answer the question: does he, against the advice of justice officials\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e5ebfd6ae274b719066280a67f680b9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for the House to adjourn for the dinner break. The House will resume at 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d6736ef18354edcb972d7807803195e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee for further consideration of the Referendums Framework Bill. When we rose for the dinner break we were considering Part 1. The Hon Dr Nick Smith had the call and has one minute and 21 seconds remaining, should he so wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b91ba87e09044849bc808dffe183c08\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. A key part of Part 1 is about the bill binding the Crown. A really important practical question that New Zealanders wish to know is: is the Government expecting to bind the country in the referendum on recreational cannabis? We know the process is against that\u2014that was recommended by the officials. They wanted a process where a full bill was passed through the scrutiny of the Parliament with, effectively, a clause not indifferent to that which was put in the euthanasia bill that brought it into effect. But New Zealanders do want to know whether the expectation of the Government is that it\u2019ll bind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIn my view, when the Parliament is being excluded from the process of developing the question, when the public is getting no say formally in the process for determining the question, why the heck should they be bound? Why should there be a bind on this Parliament to abide the outcome of the referendum when the very intention of Part 1 of this bill is to do something that hasn\u2019t been done in 160 years, and that is to take Parliament out of the process for determining both the topic and the wording of the question? So I ask the Minister in the chair to address the question as to whether the referendum will be binding, and whether the expectation is that it will\u2014[Bell rung]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4985f3ff4a94ac59a6f30ebfddd4237\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Nick Smith. Sorry, before the member takes his next call, can I just say that having a word in common between a word that\u2019s in the part and his contribution, doesn\u2019t mean that he\u2019s speaking to the part. I really would encourage him to speak to Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222afb33d6a9145c187def6935a66fa7b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: A key part of Part 1 is the purpose. The purpose in clause 4 is to provide for one or more referendums.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe first point that I wanted to make with strong objection is that this bill gives Cabinet a blank cheque to have as many different referendum as it wishes. So whether it wants to have a referendum on the New Zealand First policy of abolishing the M\u0101ori seats, whether it wishes to have a referendum, that the Green Party may wish to have, on a climate change emergency, they could do all of those things off the back of this bill. We think, very strongly, that Part 1 is wrong, that Parliament should retain the right that it has for over 160, the right to make that decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EBut given the fact that every single one of the 20 referendum that have been held at general elections have been through a select committee process on the wording, that the law has gone through the Parliament, it has been accepted that those referendum are binding\u2014whether they have been on the issue of compulsory military training, whether it was the referendum on MMP, whether it was the referendum on the four-year term, every one of those has had a parliamentary process and Parliament and the public recognise that we would respect the outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe question I want the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, to address, that he has not addressed, is: is the intention and the purpose of Part 1 in this bill intended that it will be a binding referendum? That is a very crucial question. I became very nervous when I heard the Green Party talking about their suggested wording of the referendum on recreational cannabis. It sounded like a complete stitch-up, the sort of referendum that you might expect in a country where you\u2019re trying to predetermine the outcome. So that question of whether the Government expects the referendum to be binding or not would be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EMaybe members opposite could give an indication as to whether that is the intention. I notice David Parker\u2019s a very thoughtful member, he does think about this sort of stuff. Can he tell me whether the referendum will be binding or not? The member is absolutely silent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6ed37081b8a47f49983e7fb2a856823\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker. He\u2019d finished his call, I thought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224288cc57eaf9410d8d82e91f05751d0a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry. Would the member like to yield so we can answer that question? Would Mr Parker like me to yield so that he can answer the question that I think New Zealanders would want to know: is the referendum to be binding or not? I notice there\u2019s just a blank look on every member of the Government benches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e65705160245426185f4a288d8c3ab4f\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not unusual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222906773463c942959d795c34d3ea00aa\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I know it\u2019s not unusual. But don\u2019t you think New Zealanders deserve an answer? Don\u2019t you think New Zealanders want to know whether the referendum on recreational cannabis is to be binding or not? My colleague Chris Penk would like to know. Certainly the constituents of the very effective member of Parliament in the Waikato would like to know. Can the Minister in the chair provide some light on whether the purpose of this bill is for there to be a binding referendum on recreational cannabis, or is it just an indicator referendum? Is there a single member of the Government benches that is supporting this bill that can answer that fundamental question? If they cannot, it is just another good reason why this House should reject the shonky bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b97d1f15cf554b13918592f5b45438ef\u0022\u003EPart 2  Provisions relating to referendum\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe970447d20d420b8efbee0e77af3f8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe970447d20d420b8efbee0e77af3f8a\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Very happy to talk on Part 2. I do notice we have some guests in the gallery, so for the purposes of those looking on, because we know the proceedings of Parliament are broadcast far and wide, and every now and again we have a pretty packed gallery, it helps to understand that this is what we call the committee of the whole House stage. This is the point at which a piece of legislation is given very close examination and scrutiny. Every clause is gone through bit by bit. It\u2019s a chance for the Opposition to raise questions about the issues in the particular part of the bill. Bills tend to be broken up into parts, so we do it part by part. So hopefully you\u2019ll find this somewhat elucidating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe bill that we\u2019re talking about is called the Referendums Framework Bill. It is the piece of legislation that will govern the conduct of referendums in the 2020 general election. So we have some legislation that covers the holding of a referendum. We have our Electoral Act, but not all of them apply or cover the conduct of the type of referendum that we want to have associated with the general election in 2020. So with that explanatory note hopefully out of the way, hopefully that will make this a very pleasant experience for those in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI just want to summarise Part 2 in saying this is very much the operative and mechanical part of the bill. It starts with clause 8, which allows a declaration of a referendum by Order in Council, as is very clear. The Hon Dr Nick Smith\u2019s continued injunction that nothing like this has ever happened in 160 years is demonstrably incorrect. Even clause 8 refers to the Referenda (Postal Voting) Act 2000, a piece of legislation that was promoted and encouraged by the National Government in the 1990s, endorsed by senior Ministers of that Government, passed in 2000. That is a piece of legislation that deals with referendum by postal vote and allows the referendum question to be promulgated through Order in Council. That\u2019s what\u2019s proposed, at least in relation to the referendum question, on the legalisation of cannabis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThat question will be the subject of consultation with all parties in Parliament. It has already been the subject of considerable academic input and consideration of polling groups, and what have you. So the idea when you ask a referendum question is it has to be neutral, it has to be cast in language that everybody understands, and that\u2019s what we are intending to do. The draft question posed in a recent speech by a Green Party member is not the question that will be posed in the ballot paper for next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis part of the bill also covers off some of the mechanics of it. It says that the Electoral Act 1993 will apply; talks about who gets to officiate; basically replicates parts of the Electoral Act 1993, and that defines who can vote, which, oddly enough, is that anybody who can vote at a general election can also vote on the referendums; and it lays out requirements for the voting paper. It talks about the counting of votes. It provides for the votes cast for the referendums not to be counted on election night, because we don\u2019t want to slow down the results for members of Parliament and list members who, by 7 o\u2019clock on the Saturday night of election night, are literally sitting on the edges of their seats, wondering what\u2019s going to happen\u2014their fate in the hands of the people. So we don\u2019t want to disrupt that moment of anxiety for members. These referendum questions\u2014the votes will be counted for those subsequently and we will know within a couple of weeks, ideally, what the outcome of each of those election questions is. So that is provided for in these parts here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThen there are the provisions around petitions. If somebody disagrees with the result or the result is very close, and perhaps considering a recount, there are provisions in relation to that as well. None of this will be unusual. This House has passed legislation before about referendums. Whether it\u2019s the Citizens Initiated Referenda Act or whether it\u2019s the Referenda (Postal Voting) Act, drafted by, promoted, encouraged, and first read by a National Government, this simply replicates that. So in any ordinary world, there would be agreement on that, but we don\u2019t live in ordinary times at the moment, self-evidently, so that won\u2019t happen. But these provisions are important. They are the meat and the bones of this particular bill. They provide for the practicalities of the conduct of the referendums in next year\u2019s general election, and I look forward to the members\u2019 questions on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002239caa442dbd3450c8d932252ab2eabea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239caa442dbd3450c8d932252ab2eabea\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Turning to Part 2 of this Referendums Framework Bill, I\u2019ve got a couple of specific questions for the Minister on the technical aspects of the way that the referendum would be carried out in accordance with the provisions of the bill, obviously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo turning first to clause 9, \u201CWhen referendum is to take place\u201D, I note that the bill uses the phrase \u201Cpolling day\u201D, and the context is \u201CA referendum of electors must be held on polling day for the general election.\u201D I wonder if the Minister can assure us that that\u2019s the appropriate phrase in the context of a general election that will include, of course, not only what\u2019s traditionally been regarded as polling day or voting day or even election day, but now, of course, the context is that we have a significant advance voting period\u2014significant not only in terms of time, but certainly the expectation and indeed the recent practice is that up to half, or maybe even more than half, of the votes that are cast in the general election would be by way of advance vote. That\u2019s a practice that the Electoral Commission is actively encouraging. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI make no comment on that for current purposes, except to note that it is seemingly inevitable that we will have in the 2020 election, in the general election, a large number of votes cast on what could be described as something other than polling day. Now, it might be that there\u2019s a technical understanding of that phrase and that may be cross-referred to in another Act of Parliament, but I don\u2019t see that and I don\u2019t see the interpretation section having anything to say on that either. If I\u2019ve missed something, then no doubt the Minister, with his officials to assist, will advise me, no doubt. So that\u2019s the first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe second is in clause 11, which is regarding the voting system. And we hear there that a referendum must be conducted in accordance with the first-past-the-post method. That\u2019s fine as far as it goes and probably to be expected. We don\u2019t need anything so complicated as a preferential system or indeed the proportionality and different moving parts that we have in the general election proper. But I do note it at subclause (2)(b)\u2014we\u2019re talking about the \u201Chighest number of votes\u201D being the definition of a successful option. I think, grammatically speaking, we\u2019d probably say the \u201Chigher number of votes\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022780432b9195541449e7332e49b56ccad\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Excellent\u2014excellent contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d51a944e3184abd84955b1a13e2efee\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014if there are only two options. And I\u2019m grateful, Madam Chair, that you approve of this point. You\u2019ll no doubt join me in wanting the Minister to comment on that, because, of course, if there are only two options, then one is the higher and one is the lower, but if there are more than two, then we\u2019re into the realm of highest and lowest. Of course, it\u2019s possible that we don\u2019t have a higher or lower or even a highest or lowest but, in fact, an equal. So how do we determine which is the first among equals? You can\u2019t even have recourse to the easy option of calling for a majority of the valid votes cast to represent a successful option. So we would have a situation, I suppose, where we\u2019d need to differentiate, in the unlikely event of a split vote, an exactly even number of votes, as we saw recently in various local government elections, decided by a coin toss. So that would be perhaps unfortunate, depending on which side of the 50/50 lucky dip one fell, I suppose, in terms of one\u2019s preference, but it would seem a bit of a shame that our legislation doesn\u2019t provide at least some clarity about how such a matter would be resolved in that unlikely event. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ETurning now to clause 14\u2014we\u2019re talking now about the referendum voting paper\u2014and along similar lines, I note that we\u2019re talking about a situation where there is to be more than one referendum held at the general election. Then it says, \u201Call referendums may be included in a single voting paper.\u201D Well, if we only have two, and two is more than one\u2014so that\u2019s a possibility\u2014we should have \u201Cboth\u201D referendums, not \u201Call\u201D. So perhaps \u201Cboth or all\u201D would be the better way to phrase that, but I suspect, in any case, the meaning\u2019s pretty clear. Knowing the Speaker\u2019s love of grammar, it\u2019s probably not proper for me to seek that he be recalled to enjoy and partake in this conversation, and, in any case, I think the chair of the committee is enjoying himself thoroughly on these grammatical points as well, so we won\u2019t speculate any further in that regard. I\u2019m probably getting some comments from my whip as well as others imploring me to move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo a serious question, then, regarding clause 14(2), \u201CThe order of the referendums \u2026 [is to] be determined by a member of the Electoral Commission drawing lots in the presence of a High Court Judge.\u201D Well, that sounds pretty robust and actually quite admirable in the sense that we\u2019re looking for a process that would be quite transparent and fair. But I wonder why, in this case, it wouldn\u2019t be a matter that the Cabinet would be able to decide consistent with some of the other measures in the bill. So any comment the Minister can give in that regard as well would also be appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00227436432c033d475085ba13fad54e460e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227436432c033d475085ba13fad54e460e\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. I am very happy to take a call on Part 2 of the Referendums Framework Bill, because it is an area of law that I actually feel quite strongly about. I wanted to come and take a call on this Part 2 as it is the meaty section, shall we say, of the legislation, and make comments relating to both the general impact of Part 2 but also some of the specific provisions, as my colleague Chris Penk has been doing so ably in his contribution that we\u2019ve just enjoyed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe thrust of Part 2 is, in effect, to give the executive power to determine and enable referendums on any matter of its choosing at an election. I feel very strongly that in actual fact\u2014it might sound slightly sort of esoteric to talk in these terms in a debate like this\u2014it is the role of members in this House to make decisions. It is not the role of members in this House to simply say, \u201CWell, we don\u2019t know. Let\u2019s ask the public.\u201D And I don\u2019t say that because of any view that the public are not competent or qualified to have a view. Of course they are. But what members of this House who\u2019ve been here for a while know is that we spend many, many hours in detailed study and consideration of a vast array of evidence, a vast number of submissions, expert opinion\u2014we wade through in great detail the specifics of the issues before us, and we reach decisions on huge aspects of any piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThere are very few pieces of legislation or decisions\u2014because that\u2019s what they are\u2014that this House has to deal with that are simple binary matters that work well in a referendum. And if we kid ourselves that the public in a simple binary yes/no decision of a referendum can make complex, nuanced decisions the way that this House can, I\u2019m sorry; that is just wrong. Now, there may be some populist appeal in saying, \u201CWell, let\u2019s let the public decide.\u201D But, actually, the public elect us to exercise our skill and our judgment and use all of our expertise that we bring to this House and all of the various experiences that we have to make those calls. And I cannot support, therefore, Part 2, which enables the executive to, with increasing ease, simply pass those decisions out to the public at a binary yes/no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EVery, very few of the decisions this House has made in my 12 years can simply be put in a yes/no form. And what is particularly concerning to me is that we see time and time again referendums being hijacked by marketing campaigns. I don\u2019t believe that democracy is well served by enabling issues to be passed off at the whim of the executive with very little process and oversight to a simple binary yes/no process for a public who, frankly, still struggle to understand even how MMP works. We cannot abrogate our role as members of this House by simply saying, \u201CIt\u2019s too hard, let\u2019s not be unpopular, let\u2019s not make decisions, let\u2019s just flick it through to the public.\u201D So the tenor of Part 2 that enables that very simple, dismissive hand-off of complicated, nuanced issues is one I can\u2019t support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ENow I mentioned that I wanted to touch on a specific point and my colleague Chris Penk, as I said, has started to work through a number of those that this side has concerns with. One I wanted to touch on is a very genuine question to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, of legal interpretation, and that is around clause 13 in Part 2 around who may vote in a referendum. Now I have no issue, obviously, with the fact that everyone who\u2019s entitled to vote at a general election should be entitled to vote at a referendum. But I do wonder about the wording, which suggests that people who are \u201Cqualified\u201D to vote may vote. I am interested in whether the Minister has sought an analysis of whether \u201Cqualified\u201D and \u201Cenrolled\u201D are the same thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EOur law has always provided that people enrolled to vote are those who may vote; not just those who are qualified, and I would like the Minister to answer for me whether he has checked with officials whether there is, in fact, a legal difference, as it would seem to be on the reading of it, between simply being qualified to vote, being eligible to vote, and actually being enrolled to vote. Our law has always provided that you must, in fact, be an enrolled voter to vote at an election. I would assume the same should apply at a referendum and yet this legislation doesn\u2019t seem to require enrolment. So my very genuine question for the Minister, which I would like him to address, quite apart from my wider concerns about the legislation, is that question around enrolment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022a047e7cc47be493bb12a0155a7d017f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a047e7cc47be493bb12a0155a7d017f9\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to speak in the committee of the whole House on the Referendum Frameworks Bill. I\u2019ve been listening to this. I wasn\u2019t going to take a contribution, but we\u2019ve been listening to this debate this evening and I felt the need to speak on this because I\u2019m passionate about this topic and, in particular, about this framework bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ESo we are in Part 2 of this bill, which is really the crux of what this bill is all about. This part, essentially, gives the executive branch of Government the ability to set the topic, to set the question, and to set the options for a referendum that goes to the public. And like the previous speakers in this debate, I believe that Parliament should be the voice of reason and that Parliament should determine the question and the topics and the options available for referendums, because these are referendums that are likely to have far-reaching consequences for our future voters in the House tonight. It is the representative democracy that we have in New Zealand, that this House has the representative nature to make decisions on behalf of all New Zealanders and not just for a few. So, it is in many ways, I think, important that Parliament retains that authority to determine the topic, to determine the questions, and to determine the options available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ELet me just refer to things like the referendum that we\u2019re going to face next year, for example, on cannabis. This is why this side of the Chamber has prosecuted the fact that we just still don\u2019t know the question for next year\u2019s referendum on cannabis. I raise it because it\u2019s an important part of this bill that the public of New Zealand should have the right to know well in advance what those questions will be, and they would know if it was brought to Parliament and not held in the hands of the executive. It is also important about the options that are available. Is it a yes/no, or are there, in fact, more than two options? I think my colleague Chris Penk raised some valid points that I would appreciate the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, addressing on the options available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI do want to go to clause 9, which states that \u201CA referendum \u2026 must be held on polling day for the [next] general election.\u201D I myself, having come through a by-election, know that advance voting is becoming a big thing these days and it is not clear for me, at least, what clause 9 refers to. Does it actually include advance voting? Or is it the case that everybody who advance votes doesn\u2019t get a say on the referendum and only those that go on polling day get a chance to vote? Of course, I would appreciate the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, to clarify that and I can only surmise what that is from the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ESo it is really important, and I am glad I\u2019ve come down to the Chamber just to take a call on this debate. I again want to reiterate that it is in the hands of Parliament and that Parliament should decide the questions and the options and not the executive branch, or Order of Council in this case. I would appreciate the Minister\u2019s clarification on clause 9. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s a requirement to consult the other parties in this and that\u2019s why I think it\u2019s important that Parliament be the body, the representative body on behalf of the people of New Zealand, that determines the question and the options and the topics that will be held in a referendum. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022efc205c370614294b50541495617ee02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efc205c370614294b50541495617ee02\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank members who have raised their questions so far. I think we\u2019ll just go through seriatim the questions that have been raised so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EChris Penk raised the question of polling day. Clause 9 refers to \u201CA referendum of electors must be held on polling day for the general election.\u201D That term \u201Cpolling day\u201D or \u201Cgeneral election\u201D is defined in the Electoral Act 1993 as including the advance voting period, and the cross-reference to that for the benefit of Mr Penk is clause 5(2), when it says, \u201CThe terms ballot box, ballot paper, poll, and polling mean the same in this Act as they do in the 1993 Act.\u201D And that covers that, and indeed subclause (1) of that same clause says \u201Cgeneral election means the first general election after the commencement of this Act\u201D. Those terms are defined in the Electoral Act 1993, but I appreciate the member raising those particular matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn relation to clause 11(2)(b) and the reference to \u201Chighest\u201D as opposed to \u201Chigher\u201D, that, of course, presupposes that there will be only two questions on the ballot paper. At the time the bill was drafted, of course, it was not certain that it would be just confined to two\u2014or confined to two at all; it might have just been one. But it is pretty clear it will be two and so for the benefit of the member, and because I so often find him so persuasive if not scintillating, I have drafted a Supplementary Order Paper to change the word \u201Chighest\u201D to \u201Chigher\u201D. That locks in the number of questions that will be on the ballot paper and Mr Penk, if he does nothing else in his entire political career, can say that in the space of a few minutes he persuaded a Minister in the chair to amend a bill there and then. Nick Smith should not get his hopes up; I\u2019m just saying that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn relation to clause 14, I\u2019m not quite clear about the question in relation to the word \u201Call\u201D, except that I think we can operate a pretty expansive interpretation of the word \u201Call\u201D to encompass the word \u201Cboth\u201D and that\u2019s how it would be interpreted. In relation to subclause (2) of clause 14, about the determination of the order of the questions to be conducted by the Electoral Commission by drawing of a ballot by a High Court judge, the member raised the question: why not Cabinet? It\u2019s an interesting question to raise, given that the assault on this bill from the Opposition is \u201CCabinet\u2019s got too much power; it\u2019s doing too much.\u201D In the spirit with which this Government operates\u2014which is to ensure that executive power is not wielded improperly and expansively and extensively\u2014it is appropriate that once the bill is passed the conduct of the referendums are handed over to the Electoral Commission. They maintain their independence and also their integrity, and this is their way of doing that. They conduct the ballot for the order of the questions, and they use a High Court judge because High Court judges are naturally respected completely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI turn to the remarks by the Hon Amy Adams. She expressed a philosophical view about why we shouldn\u2019t have referendums. I\u2019m not unsympathetic to her view, except that we do provide for referendums. It is one way that significant policy shifts can be made across our country. Issues like the legalisation of cannabis\u2014as, indeed, end-of-life choice\u2014my view is that they are appropriate questions for a referendum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI know that member said the questions should not be yes/no questions. I have already foreshadowed publicly, with the agreement of my Cabinet colleagues and our coalition and confidence and supply partners, that it will be a yes/no question. This is simply about ease of access to making a decision so people get to know what the question is and that it is as easy as possible to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe question will relate to draft legislation. That will be known in advance. There will be a lot of publicity about that, and I\u2019m satisfied and I\u2019m confident, indeed, that people are going to understand the question that they\u2019re being asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Hon Amy Adams also asked about the word \u201Cqualified\u201D in clause 13 and whether it should be \u201Celigible\u201D or whether it should be \u201Cenrolled\u201D. I understand the position is this: that in order to be qualified to vote, you have to be eligible and enrolled and not otherwise disqualified. So that turn of phrase in that clause covers off that aspect of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe member Dan Bidois asked some questions. I know he made the point that Parliament should determine the question. That\u2019s not going to happen. We don\u2019t know the question at this time, but we will well in advance of the date of the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002276c1246e5c4e4c0a8a34e871d872562a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276c1246e5c4e4c0a8a34e871d872562a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E This is the heart of this bill, in Part 2, where clause 8 very significantly takes the decision away from Parliament about what decisions are held on referendum and passes it over to Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe first question I want to ask the Minister is in respect of the views of the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee. Now, I\u2019ve been listening to that committee of very dry officials for a long time. I have never read words that are as strongly opposed to a bill as these, and I\u2019m going to read them directly because it shows how important it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis is a quote: \u201C \u2018free and fair elections\u2019 are a fundamental constitutional principle.\u201D Anyone in the House disagree with that? Free and fair elections are a fundamental constitutional principle. \u201COne component of free and fair elections is that they are administered neutrally and impartially.\u201D Is there any member of the House that disagrees with how important that is? Well, then listen to what they said: \u201CThis tells against giving the Executive a broad power to procure referendums and to frame the wording [of] such [referenda].\u201D Let\u2019s not mince words. These are Government officials that are saying that this bill and this part compromises free and fair elections. That is appalling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve listened to many a speech and constitutional comment from Peter Dunne. Peter Dunne is one of the longest-serving members of this House in its history. He\u2019s been in Labour Governments. He\u2019s been in National Governments. He had this to say about it: \u201CThis bill is much more\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e526a468ec34b899b2d5908fc417338\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: He was sacked from a National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2a5137abb2a42c795a317583dd680ee\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Wood wants to criticise Mr Dunne. Why did Helen Clark choose to form a Government with him? He\u2019s a member that has sat with Governments for 30 years, and he had this to say: \u201C[This bill is] much more reminiscent of the plebiscite approach adopted in countries where democracy in any form is but the thinnest of veneers.\u201D We\u2019ve criticised countries like Russia and South America in authoritarian States that pass laws of this sort, and we have a very moderate, sensible person like Peter Dunne saying this is the sort of stuff that authoritarian States do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo my first question to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little: why would Parliament not listen to the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee when it says this bill compromises free and fair elections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, the second question I want to raise is with respect to the Regulations Review Committee, because the Government has argued this: \u201COh, yeah, sure; this is a bit of a grubby bill that bypasses Parliament and lets us have referendum on any topic we like with any wording we like, but don\u2019t worry, because Parliament gets to have a say through the Regulations Review Committee.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ECan I tell you the problem with that argument? The Regulations Review Committee only gets to comment on it after the referendum has been held. What? That\u2019s what we were advised at the committee. What sort of a joke is that? It\u2019s sort of like saying to the guy, \u201CHey\u2014we\u2019ll give you an appeal on your death sentence but after you\u2019ve been hung.\u201D That is a complete nonsense. It\u2019s been dismissed by the media. It\u2019s very untruthful. It\u2019s dismissive of the Parliament, and so I say to the Minister in the chair: does he accept the advice of officials that the role of Parliament\u2019s Regulations Review Committee would only come into play after the referendum has been held, and isn\u2019t it really a nonsense and a naked argument for the Government to present that as a defence of this part? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen I want to know what the question will be, because the discussion in the Parliament has been fascinating. Now, of course, clause 8 says this: it says the wording of the question, or any question, to be put to electors shall be determined by Cabinet\u2014shall be determined by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo you know the biggest party in Parliament, the 55 MPs, the majority of electorates\u2014you know, the electorate MPs that sit on a majority of this House. We get no opportunity to have any say at all. You\u2019re just locked out. The 55 members of Parliament that represent over 1.2 million voters\u2014you don\u2019t get a say anymore. You\u2019ve had a say since 1853, but this Government\u2019s decided that they are so smart and they are so wise, they do not want us to have any input into the questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo I at least might have thought that the Government might be consistent in its view about the question on recreational cannabis. So I listened to the Green Party. They said the question would be this: \u201CWould you like to see cannabis legally regulated?\u201D That\u2019s the question that we\u2019re authorising with this bill. But here\u2019s my problem: the Minister in the chair said he disagreed with the Greens. So can any member of Parliament, before we pass this part, tell me what the question is going to be on recreational cannabis? Here\u2019s my fear: I know Andrew Little wants to legalise recreational cannabis. I know the Prime Minister wants to legalise it. I know the Green Party wants to legalise it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221543d4a3893944a09a2b7d7f44c147e4\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. There are some comments that members get to make that can bring the House into disorder, and attributing various views to members that are simply not correct is, in my view, something that has the potential to bring the House into disorder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f81900354d14a81b5d25eaac5124b75\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister\u2019s made a good point. The member is very familiar with this part and with the issues, and if he could just confine his contribution to Part 2, that would be really helpful to the order of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022767a96f4ca1248d4bc1f95b6a0f405c5\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: My point is this, Madam Chair: clause 8 of this part gives the power of the executive to determine the question that will be put to New Zealanders on recreational cannabis. My proposition is this: it\u2019s a stitch up. The Government wants to legalise cannabis, it\u2019s done a deal, and it is not going to allow New Zealanders to have a say on the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the double standard: in the last Government, we had a referendum on the flag. Labour members argued on the flag referendum that it was unfair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e0d3f5815fd47fcb5095914340d46d6\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve made this point already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc9ab8ca23bb479dba86abc3c1452453\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Wood might be able to answer this. Why did Labour argue on the flag referendum that it was unfair and\u2014do you know what they said?\u2014undemocratic that New Zealanders were allowed only five minutes at the select committee to have a say on the wording\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288c4f468737a4069b84257767025452b\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: You made this point before dinner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a23aabd850ef45c98c0cc47697105027\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014while, under this bill, there is no opportunity for a say? So what I say to Mr Wood is this: does he think the issue of legalising recreational cannabis is more important than the issue of a flag and what flag our country might have, and why has Labour had the double standard? When they were on this side of the House, they said not only that New Zealanders should have a say; they also said it was unfair for them to have less than five minutes\u2019 say, and now they\u2019re saying they get no say at all, that it\u2019s just a decision that is made by Cabinet in secret. And what really makes me nervous\u2014and can the Minister just confirm\u2014when the Green Party said the question would be \u201CWould you like to see cannabis legally regulated?\u201D, can the Minister in the chair confirm again that that\u2019s not what the question will be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c762e0623029410d9678fda31b19a9f2\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s repeated this seven times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bed604479c8a45d78ede8c528bcf99f7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, can Mr Wood confirm what the question is that\u2019s going to be put to four million New Zealanders? Can any member of the Government tell us what question they are wont to authorise under clause 8 of this bill? I tell you what, they don\u2019t want to tell us, because they want to whip behind closed doors in the Cabinet room and stitch up a deal with a question that will favour the outcome that they want rather than have the scrutiny of the public and the Parliament to the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis is where I come back to this point: will the referendum on recreational cannabis be binding on this Parliament? And I do ask a very important constitutional question: why should Parliament be bound by a referendum on a question on which they\u2019ve had no say? I have to say that I have a view that, well, if Parliament\u2019s had no input, I\u2019m happy to be bound where I\u2019ve been involved in the process, made sure the question\u2019s fair, but where Parliament and the public have been locked out, it cannot be binding, and on the basis that it cannot be binding, it all just becomes a matter of politics, coalition management, and abusing the electoral process, using the public as pawns in an exercise that is shonky.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EMy last question to the Minister is this: why is he not following the advice of the justice officials around the issue of recreational cannabis? They said the right process is to pass a bill, provide all the detail, and then have a commencement clause that is linked to a referendum. That\u2019s been good enough for the Government on euthanasia. Why is there an inconsistent approach between the referendum on euthanasia and on recreational cannabis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00227aa04a4ee11f4fa1bd4a3fe4a829c783\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227aa04a4ee11f4fa1bd4a3fe4a829c783\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So just four points to respond to from the member who\u2019s just resumed his seat, Nick Smith. He made a reference to and described a fear of authoritarian States, and it is a fear that I have too. And when this House, in the past, has legislated for the removal of voting rights for a part of our population, as the member who\u2019s just resumed his seat did when he was Minister for the Environment, abolishing the right of Cantabrians for their elected members on their regional council\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da4455b11cbb49809fd5d62ed006caf8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How\u2019s that relevant, Madam Chair? I hope the Chair\u2019s going to be consistent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220aa8bb1570c47aeb635af3c7e2c579b\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that\u2019s authoritarianism\u2014that\u2019s authoritarianism\u2014and I regret to tell members and the public in the gallery that that has been the high-water mark of authoritarianism in this country in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a561c92c50d44e796eafb7d59ee407c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to interrupt the member. I\u2019d ask the Hon Nick Smith to withdraw and apologise for that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e93735eb9b3b4a74817f7e2a4d5b6a25\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What comment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233cadfa2304649c198c00be2d41340b9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: You know what comment, Dr Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f63525cf85e454bb1f4dcc3653ef336\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t, but I\u2019m happy to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fbef475f78e454a81ff9bb1811ab5ae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed5b6ad929ef48f785b158487a451735\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Could you clarify, after I withdraw and apologise, the comment that caused offence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274436181852b4bb59b976a98a49c4fe1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I will consider it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202a1402b5c614bda80cd171196283f55\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chair, you\u2019ve been quite strict on Opposition members that we talk to this part of the bill. I\u2019m very happy to have an argument about Environment Canterbury, the district health board that Helen Clark dismissed etc.\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022142f87695dea4c87aadf7d32ccb7e9a6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for your advice; that\u2019s not a point of order. [Interruption] The member will resume his seat. I\u2019ve just listened to two five-minute calls from the member, which was an exact repetition of the four five-minute calls that he took before the dinner adjournment\u2014with the exception of one minute and 21 seconds\u2014so I really think he should reconsider his view that I\u2019m being strict on his contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022619cc50bb81043fb86c76efd37f88188\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee, that committee\u2019s advice was clear that they thought there needed to be some further safeguards in the legislation; that is what they said. That was their recommendation. In relation to the role of the Regulations Review Committee, the Regulations Review Committee has the role of overseeing any promulgated regulation. It doesn\u2019t require the regulation to have been fulfilled or acted upon. Once a regulation is promulgated and publicised, then the Regulations Review Committee has the power and the right and role to ascertain whether the regulation has been properly conceived and promulgated and meets its objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn relation to the question of binding on Parliament, the parties in Government have said they will be bound by the result of the referendum. There\u2019s only one party that refuses to say whether they will be bound by the will of the electorate. That is the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa44786733e24350ac711396a87734a4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: We don\u2019t know what the question is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266b37f93f98e4417a63d874f03332a2e\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us the question and we\u2019ll tell you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e03cbfacd534983bb95ff4686d984f2\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: And the members know that the question, as I\u2019ve said in my earlier contributions, will be the subject of cross-party consultation. I\u2019ve indicated the work that is going into the development of the question. The members know that. Individual members of the National Party know that. I expect they will be involved. But, most importantly, the people for whom it is most important are the voting public of New Zealand. They will have good, neutral, factual information about the referendum question, about the question itself, well in advance of next year\u2019s general election. There\u2019ll be appropriate places for people to get access to that advice. All of that is in train. All of that will happen. But this is a piece of legislation that puts in the mechanics for us to conduct the referendum questions that are slated for next year\u2019s general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022b827025dd0a34ef5945f172ca1c35344\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b827025dd0a34ef5945f172ca1c35344\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to take a call on the Referendums Framework Bill, on Part 2. I\u2019d like to focus firstly on clause 11 of the bill, which is in regards to the voting system which will be used in a referendum. It says in clause 11(1), \u201CA referendum must be conducted in accordance with the first-past-the-post electoral system.\u201D It then says, \u201CFor the purposes of a referendum, that system has the following features: (a) electors may cast 1 vote for 1 option: (b) the option that receives the highest number of votes is the successful option.\u201D So that, essentially, outlines how a first-past-the-post system works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI guess what it says to me is that the Minister of Justice is expecting, or thinking about, potential referendums which may have more than two options, because, of course, in a two-option system, there will be one which gets a majority and another which gets a minority. If you\u2019re going to have a vote which receives just the highest number, is the Minister indicating here that there may be a vote on a question which could have multiple options, of which just the highest vote is the one which actually passes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s exactly how we as electorate MPs\u2014and, of course, the point has been made that the majority are on this side of the House\u2014are elected. Not all electorate MPs get a majority of the votes in their electorate; some get a minority but are elected by a first-past-the-post system because there are multiple options, not just two, in that voting system. So can the Minister confirm whether there will be any questions which he\u2019ll be putting before the public which will have more than just a yes/no answer required from the public and required from voters? And can the Minister also give us an assurance that there will be no other referendums other than the two which have been talked about, one being the one on marijuana and the other one being the one which Parliament voted for on euthanasia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWill he, as a Government, commit to not putting any other referendums by Order in Council under clause 8? He\u2019s indicating yes, and I hope that he will take a call and confirm that to the Parliament and to the public\u2014that there will be no other questions. And also, will he confirm that the question on marijuana will, therefore, be also a binary yes/no question\u2014and, if that is the case, why this clause anticipates the potential for other questions which could have multiple options, not just a binary yes/no, particularly because the commencement clause, of course, says that this bill expires after the next general election, which would therefore make it redundant for it just to be simply for yes/no answer questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe second clause that I\u2019d like to focus my contribution on is clause 32, which is around a fresh referendum. And, of course, a fresh referendum would occur only if the High Court declared the referendum to be void. And, of course, there\u2019s a process whereby people would need to petition the High Court to look into that and then a declaration to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThen a referendum must be held, and that must be held no later than six months after the declaration that the referendum is void. It says there in clause 32(d) that \u201Cthe same roll of electors must be used at the fresh referendum as was used at the referendum declared to be void\u201D, so I assume, and I\u2019d like to ask the Minister: does that mean no one enrolled in that six-month period\u2014newly enrolled or became a resident and therefore enrolled\u2014none of those people are therefore allowed to vote? Is it simply the same people who were enrolled at the day of an election? If you turned 18 a month after that election, would you not be allowed to vote in the fresh referendum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThen in clause 32(e) it says, \u201Ca fresh referendum must be conducted in accordance with the provisions of this Act, with any necessary modifications, and to the extent that they are relevant.\u201D Now, I\u2019m not sure what this clause actually means. Is that meaning that the referendum must be held via polling booths like an election day? Does that allow the Minister to have a postal referendum? Is there other methodology which is allowed to be used, or must it be held in exactly the same way\u2014as in the polling must take place at polling booths as per a general election, where a referendum would normally happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo those are a few questions. There are so many more questions. I\u2019ll keep reading the bill. I\u2019m sure I\u2019ll find some more. I look forward to making more contributions on this terrible piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002220a868afaed34f2ab5811c50720b9b09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220a868afaed34f2ab5811c50720b9b09\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d451aa2fa8004b0b9a48e070482348f5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000667\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Andrew Little to clause 11 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000668\u0022\u003Ein clause 11(2)(b), replace \u201Chighest\u201D with \u201Chigher\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000669\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225a3fb00efd5945d89fefd38fd3324fe8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022074df5ab33164e988be25bf4304896f7\u0022\u003EPart 3  Referendum advertising\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8c4d9663caf45128d9708d3bc87cae1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8c4d9663caf45128d9708d3bc87cae1\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E The questions I have of the Minister on Part 3 of this bill are actually quite crucial in the sense that not only is the Government trying to manipulate the system by shifting the power over who gets to decide what referendum goes off to Cabinet and determining the wording, and taking the power away from Parliament and a select committee and the public from having a say on the question; it is also wanting to control the discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EMy first question to the Minister is this: when we had the flag referendum, Labour members of Parliament argued very strongly that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4e4205d4e884fd098c13dc45f4f1531\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: Glory moment for the National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb8597a7304b409693c80e40dd44c30f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d just be interested in a principled approach from members opposite. When we had the flag referendum, Mr Wood, the Labour Party argued that the publicity campaign had to be run independently. It could not be run by a Government department, because if a Government department ran the referendum on the flag, the concern was that that\u2019d be biased. Now, I think the member would accept, as New Zealanders accept, that the referendum on the flag was played with an absolutely straight bat. [Interruption] Well, members opposite\u2014I\u2019d love them to get to their feet and to argue the deficiencies of the flag referendum that National conducted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENational also had a referendum on MMP. Labour promised it, broke their word; National delivered, and it was a very fair referendum that we had on MMP. Then we look at the referendum that was held on the issue back in time on alcohol. In every case, the advertising has been done by a neutral department, and my concern is that the Minister has his own justice ministry providing an information campaign on the recreational cannabis referendum. The problem I have with that is, as we\u2019ve seen on multiple electoral rules, when the Minister wanted to have the legislation to be able to give party leaders the power to sack MPs, something that is unheard of\u2014I spoke with the Australian Minister of electoral law yesterday. He was gobsmacked that the Parliament of New Zealand would pass such a law. On that, the justice ministry said, \u201COur job is simply to follow Government policy.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo my concern is: why has the Labour Party changed its position on the advertising and information campaigns, on the information that New Zealanders will get to make a decision on sensitive issues like recreational cannabis, or, for that matter, any other issue that they may decide through this bill that they want to have a referendum on. Why was it that Labour, on MMP, on the flag, and other issues have said, \u201COh, the Government can\u2019t run the information campaign; it needs to be independent.\u201D In the case of the flag referendum, the information campaign was run by a completely independent body of the Government of the day. So why, when Labour argued that, is it changing its tune? Why is it that they want to control the information that goes out to New Zealanders on the recreational cannabis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThat brings me back to my point again. This is all about pretending that New Zealanders are going to be able to have a say while the Minister is gerrymandering the system in the back room and making sure they get the outcome they want\u2014that outcome being the legalisation of recreational cannabis. They don\u2019t have the courage to simply come before the Parliament and advance legislation of that sort\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a60fd80af688429a83dbf8d372eec37a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member knows that that\u2019s out of order. He\u2019ll withdraw and apologise for that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211300710d70f485182fe9b61e7f6cded\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. The Government is not being upfront and saying that it wants to legalise recreational cannabis. What it instead is doing is creating an unfair process by which the referendum is generated against the advice of officials, against what is good practice around referendum, and we see that equally in the information campaign that the Government is wanting to conduct. So my question again: why has Labour changed its tune? Why, on the flag referendum, on the MMP referendum, did Labour argue very passionately that the information campaign should be run at arm\u2019s length of the Government, whereas in respect of the recreational cannabis referendum, the Government wants to be in control of the agenda and the information that will have a major influence on the outcome of the referendum that has been proposed? They\u2019re the issues we should focus on in Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002271356e7caca547699c2391d92163eacb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271356e7caca547699c2391d92163eacb\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Turning to Part 3, as my colleague the Hon Dr Smith has already done, I\u2019d like to pick up on the subject of advertisements, but I prefix it with the application of the whole part to conduct inside or outside of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAt clause 36, we\u2019re posed a bit of a challenge, potentially at least\u2014but the Minister of Justice may be able to clarify\u2014in relation to the meaning of the phrase \u201Cin New Zealand,\u201D. I\u2019m not trying to be cute regarding the meaning of New Zealand in relation to its Realm versus what we would often refer to as the nation of New Zealand and challenge any sort of geopolitical understanding of what \u201CNew Zealand\u201D means, but, rather, in the environment in which we live, whereby much of such advertising could be expected to exist in the cloud, which, by definition, is not in any particular nation, New Zealand or otherwise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019m taking a bit of a literal interpretation of the cloud, but it actually reinforces the point that I\u2019m looking to make regarding the fact that it\u2019s no easy matter to determine whether a promotor of an advertisement\u2014to use the phraseology of Part 3\u2014is within New Zealand or not. So that seems to me an artificial distinction, but one on which the Minister may be able to provide some advice, and I\u2019d be grateful to him if he were to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy next point relates to the interpretation section at clause 38. I note that there\u2019s a particular meaning given to \u201Cjoint advertisement\u201D. I\u2019d like the Minister\u2019s assurance that the word \u201Cjoint\u201D doesn\u2019t have any particular meaning in relation to the cannabis referendum and, similarly, that he\u2019s not intending to have any particular meaning ascribed to wasted votes, being any of those that are in favour of legalising the smoking of weed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut returning, on a reasonably serious basis, to some weighty issues in the bill in the hope that they might get more favour, is the meaning of \u201Creferendum advertisement\u201D in clause 39(1), and this really is a very serious matter indeed. We see in that clause that a \u201Creferendum advertisement\u201D, unless the context otherwise requires, means \u201Can advertisement in any medium that\u2014\u201D does a number of different things. But the first set of criteria is that it\u2019s something that might be regarded as (a) \u201Cencouraging or persuading electors\u2014\u201D, or \u201Cmay be reasonably regarded as encouraging or persuading electors\u2014\u201D, and I\u2019m wondering who it is that would have the determination of what is reasonably to be expected to be the case in such instances. Would it be the Ministry of Justice and, if so, would it be with any reference to the Minister of Justice himself? Would the Electoral Commission perhaps have a role in that? Would it perhaps be the Advertising Standards Authority or the Broadcasting Standards Authority, depending on where the advertisement took place\u2014so to speak\u2014or was published? So that\u2019s my first question: who would have that ability to decide what could be reasonably regarded as encouraging or persuading electors? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThen, turning to the next part of that subclause, we see that what we\u2019re concerning ourselves with is they\u2019re voting in a particular way, or they\u2019re not voting in a particular way, if you\u2019ll excuse the clumsiness of my expression\u2014I\u2019m trying to capture the syntax of the bill. But, actually, I wonder if we should actually also concern ourselves with whether a referendum advertisement asks voters to vote or not to vote at all, as distinct from voting in a particular way\u2014yes or no, yea or nay, for or against\u2014but, actually, even in the sense of encouraging the mere act of voting, or not the mere act of voting, but the simple fact of voting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThen, my final point\u2014and, again, I\u2019d be grateful if the Minister would regard this as somewhat of a question or, if not, a challenge. I don\u2019t suppose I need to frame it in quite those terms, but regarding at clause 39 the meaning of a \u201Creferendum advertisement\u201D, we\u2019ve got specific exclusions at subclause (2)(b) for editorial content in a periodical, a radio or TV programme, or a publication on a news media internet site. That seems to me a misplaced focus, because it focuses on the medium, and not the message, as determining whether something is a referendum advertisement. I think, with respect, that\u2019s an approach that\u2019s a little bit narrow, and it actually will not serve us well in terms of what is, presumably, the intent of the legislation, which is to exclude from the meaning of \u201Creferendum advertisement\u201D particular messages that might be regarded as coming from an editorial position, and perhaps not a partisan one, necessarily. I\u2019m not quite sure if that is, indeed, the intent, and I don\u2019t want to misrepresent it if it is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut, in any case, my point is more fundamental, and that\u2019s regarding the fact\u2014[Bell rung] Madam Chair, if I may just be allowed to continue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022898942e67ee24d6c9c2153e9fcb4c089\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Chris Penk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4c4568044254a45a06b2be94fa1020b\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you\u2014that train of thought in relation to clause 39. That\u2019s the first element under paragraph (b) that I\u2019m a little bit concerned about\u2014that we\u2019re focusing on the medium and not the message. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESimilarly, at paragraph (d), for example\u2014probably not only paragraph (d), but let\u2019s just say paragraph (d)\u2014this is, again, an exclusion to the meaning of a \u201Creferendum advertisement\u201D: \u201Cany transmission (whether live or not) of proceedings in the House of Representatives:\u201D. So in this case, we\u2019re excluding, actually, ourselves as parliamentarians who are being broadcast, to be enjoyed for later viewing, perhaps\u2014because it does say \u201C(whether live or not)\u201D\u2014and so it might be that we could give speeches in the House that are particularly persuasive, one way or the other, or they might be poor contributions, in which case they might be persuasive in a way they are not intended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut, in any case, we\u2019ve got the opportunity to make statements that are very strongly encouraging a vote, one way or t\u2019other, in a referendum but which would not be regarded as a referendum advertisement, if my reading of this provision is correct. That seems to me to be focusing on the messenger and not the message, as the key distinction regarding whether something is to be considered a referendum advertisement or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve got the medium and the messenger both being preferred as a criterion for understanding whether a particular message should be regarded as a referendum advertisement or not. I\u2019m not sure that that\u2019s really what the Minister is intending by putting that forward, but, in any case, I\u2019d be grateful for some comments that he\u2019d make along those lines, and in relation to those other points that I\u2019ve raised as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00227af143efb3614182881a7b2a7b14bd46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227af143efb3614182881a7b2a7b14bd46\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E The key portion of Part 3 deals with the issue of referendum advertising, and I\u2019m very interested in the Minister\u2019s view about who the referee will be in respect of that advertising. Now, we have the Advertising Standards Authority, that, under this bill, will be responsible for any complaints that arise from advertising. What is extraordinary, and what causes real concern for members of the Opposition, is that only two weeks ago, the Minister in the chair, Andrew Little, described the Advertising Standards Authority as both\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cincompetent\u201D and also he said that he has no confidence in them. And he nods his head. Now, essentially, it came down to the fact that he had had a dispute that he took to the Advertising Standards Authority involving myself, and the Advertising Standards Authority decided on four issues out of four that I was correct and that he was wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, if the Minister in the chair takes that view of freedom of speech around that issue, why should we have any confidence that unless people\u2019s advertisements and statements say what he thinks is right around cannabis\u2014I\u2019ll give an example. I will argue very strongly that the medical evidence of cannabis shows that it increases the incidence of mental health problems and lower educational achievement for young people. Now, there are people that dispute that, and I am happy to have that argument. What I do not want to have is the Government, through this part, limiting people\u2019s freedom of expression as we have that referendum or, equally so, on the issue of euthanasia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere are very strongly well-informed people who say that if you legalise euthanasia, you are indeed changing the culture around suicide, and you\u2019re going to make the problem of New Zealand addressing suicide more difficult. Now, whether you agree or disagree with those views, I hold a very strong opinion around the right of freedom of expression and, equally, the right of people to be able to advertise and express those views. So I\u2019m very interested, particularly with the number of the public comments and measures that have been taken by the Government to constrain freedom of speech, as to what is their intent in respect of the section around freedom of speech issues in respect of these referendum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe actually do not know all the topics that there will be referendum on, and that is because the Government is asking this Parliament to give this Government a blank cheque to have as many referendum as they want. If they want to have 20 referendum at the next election, they could lawfully do so at the next election, and the key question is, whatever those topics might be\u2014whether it be euthanasia or whether it be abortion or whether it be the issue of recreational cannabis\u2014how strongly does the Minister in the chair believe in freedom of speech? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe know that he will condemn, as a Minister of Justice, an independent authority like the Advertising Standards Authority simply because it doesn\u2019t agree with him, and that causes great unease\u2014almost a sort of Orwellian view\u2014of what the Minister\u2019s commitment is to areas of free speech. The Minister\u2019s view is that people who agree with the Minister should be able to have free speech, but people like myself that disagree with the Minister often, \u201CWell, we\u2019ll try and shut him down, remove his capacity to be able to advertise or his express his views.\u201D So I do ask the Minister in the chair, given that he has confirmed this evening that he has no confidence in the Advertising Standards Authority\u2014he nodded his head and says he thinks that they are incompetent\u2014why, in Part 3 of this bill, is he relying on them as the arbitrator of the appropriateness of advertising? I, frankly, think that it is incredibly dangerous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve just come from an interesting visit in Singapore, where, actually, it\u2019s the Ministers that get to decide. When we\u2019ve got the Ministry of Justice under the Minister\u2019s instruction that\u2019s going to decide what might be in the information campaign, this material matters greatly. I\u2019d ask the Minister to comment on the role of the Advertising Standards Authority around those provisions that relate to referendum advertising. I would really like him to express and to assert, as the Minister of Justice, the freedom of speech values that are so important in any sort of debate such as those before the referendum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022 data-id=\u0022131f5d8c12064d52b1e44206b5366440\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022131f5d8c12064d52b1e44206b5366440\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for allowing me to take a call. Minister Little, I\u2019m not completely over the detail, but I would like you to answer these questions around the advertising part, because I want you to explain to me how this may not be rorted. It\u2019s particularly around expenditure. So at the next election, like any election, members of Parliament and political parties are subject to expenditure limitations. So a member of Parliament or a candidate is allowed to spend around $27,000, something like that number. If, in fact, this legislation is passed, and if an individual, whether it\u2019s a member of Parliament or a political party, becomes a promoter of one of those particular causes\u2014and when I look at the clauses in the bill, it seems perfectly feasible that any candidate could become a promoter\u2014it is potentially possible that a candidate could double up, or even triple up if there\u2019s more than one view, their expenditure in an election period to get round that $27,000 threshold. I can\u2019t see in the bill, Minister, where that can be prevented. I think that poses a real problem for people and political parties who may use the referendum provision as a way of extending their expendable allowances in a very murky area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EWe all know, as members and candidates who have stood for election, that there is a fine line between what is a party expense and what is a candidate expense. I just cannot see in this legislation, from what I\u2019ve read, that it is not possible for a candidate to become a registered promoter, to then use the advertising provisions, either jointly with their party advertising or separately, to double up or even triple up next year their ability to promote a cause, and themselves associated with a cause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EIf you come back to why we\u2019re doing this, we are doing this because the Green Party wants to hold a referendum on the legalisation of cannabis at the next election. The material hasn\u2019t been prepared in time, and therefore, we are trying to put a piece of legislation in that allows the referendum to occur at next year\u2019s general election, which is very different from the normal process or as the Hon Nick Smith has said, 165 years of process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m trying to seek a guarantee or an understanding from the Minister that my concern is not real. I read what I can from it and I cannot see how that is excluded. So I cannot see how, if I wanted to\u2014and I\u2019m not saying I would, but if I wanted to\u2014become a promoter on a referendum, to actually use the expenditure allowances, the advertising, to maximise my profile to be associated with an issue or a political party to be associated with an issue. Now, if I\u2019ve got that wrong, I\u2019m happy to be corrected by the Minister. Sometimes in these situations, we end up doing things that are not foreseen, and I think that poses a real issue for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EWe know that there is the potential, and political parties and candidates do it from time to time, to maximise their opportunity if they\u2019re not forbidden from doing so in the law. While I\u2019m not a lawyer like some of my esteemed colleagues who are more familiar with this, I cannot see in the law, as it\u2019s promoted today, how that particular issue can be avoided. I think that\u2019s a really important point for New Zealand politics. We are limited by thresholds for election expenditure. I do not want to see this referendum bill, even though it\u2019s a one-off that only applies for the next election, create an opportunity for people to rort, effectively, the electoral maximums as part of a general election and a referendum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002226c1b884cdac487699413319a9e00521\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226c1b884cdac487699413319a9e00521\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just take the opportunity to respond to a couple of points raised by previous speakers. I\u2019ll start with Lawrence Yule and his comments, because he raises a very important question\u2014I totally agree with that. That is covered by clause 49(2)(b)(ii) of the bill. The effect of that clause is that if you\u2019re, for example, a candidate doing an advertisement that covers a referendum question and your candidacy\u2014well, your badge is your candidacy to it\u2014or if you\u2019re a party with an advertisement that covers both your party branding and a referendum question, then the costs of that advertisement are attributable to the expenditure limit for both the issues campaign and the candidate and/or party. So there is no doubling of your ability to, sort of, spend more if you both advertise yourself as a candidate, and also do some advertising on a referendum question but with your candidacy badged to it. If you\u2019re a candidate, you have a maximum of $27,000, and if you take out an ad that includes advertising for a referendum question, that all falls within your $27,000. You can\u2019t, sort of, then say, \u201COh, that was the referendum advertising; it\u2019s completely separate.\u201D So I hope that answers and reassures that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EChris Penk raised some questions. The meaning of \u201Cin New Zealand\u201D\u2014I think that clause 36, as I recall, clearly covers it off. It is to take account of an advertisement that appears in New Zealand that might originate in New Zealand, or originate out of New Zealand. It simply ensures that we\u2019re able to cover it off, whatever that advertising, whatever its source. If it\u2019s in New Zealand, it\u2019s accounted for, and there will be some accountability for it, to make sure it stays within the expenditure thresholds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn terms of who decides whether it is advertising, as is the current situation with advertising in relation to a general election, it is the Electoral Commission. They deal with complaints about breaches of the electoral laws and electoral regulations. They will make that decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn relation to that member\u2019s query about clause 39(2), I think it was, and editorial content, I know the member focused on the media that were, sort of, described there. I would invite the member to focus on \u201Ceditorial content\u201D. It\u2019s very clear that where there is news reporting, which is what we typically characterise as editorial content, that is not covered by the restrictions that would otherwise apply to advertising. The exclusion for House proceedings is pretty obvious. Members have to be free to express their views. I know that we all like to think that half of New Zealand is sitting on the edge of its seats every time Parliament is broadcast, waiting with bated breath on the great pearl of wisdom that\u2019s going to fall from the next speaker\u2019s mouth, and they live in constant disappointment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298a073ad1d564986b3d73a25823b818d\u0022\u003EChris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Speak for yourself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a9e8b05c96c4e0a965273b7bbe79e3d\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m being self-deprecating to the member. So it is right that the proceedings of this House should be excluded from any possibility of being caught up in advertising. This part of the bill deals with the same sort of topic that the Electoral Act deals with, which is the advertising\u2014the paid advertising. That characterises what a campaign is about. It\u2019s about making sure that the campaigns on this issue are not dominated by the wealthy, and that everybody has a fair crack at the whip of getting their message out, pro or anti, regardless of the issue. We do want a good, strong, robust debate; we do want civil society involved and engaged; but we don\u2019t want one side completely dominated by another side that might have much, much deeper pockets. We had applied the same principle on the MMP debate and on other referendums as well, so the same will apply here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt is completely separate from the obligation of the State, of the Government of the day, to ensure that there is neutral, impartial information available about the content\u2014in one case, about the End of Life Choice Act, and, in the other, the draft bill dealing with the legalisation of cannabis. There has to be information out there, and that will be available. It will be neutral, it will be impartial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dr Nick Smith gets it completely wrong in yet again another faux-constitutional principle. The Government of the day is not the political party in Government of the day; it is the Government with its ongoing, continuous obligations, responsibilities, and duties to the citizens of New Zealand. It is on that basis that neutral, impartial information is prepared to inform referendums. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022860f32faf0054e8ba18797eda0803c3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022860f32faf0054e8ba18797eda0803c3e\u0022\u003EPRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002235df40754cb142229761969d5da2da83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235df40754cb142229761969d5da2da83\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister of Justice, Andrew Little\u2019s contribution did not answer the very simple question: why did Labour promote the view on the flag referendum that the information campaign from Government could not be run by a Government department, it had to be independent, yet take the different view on the recreational cannabis referendum. He has not addressed that, because\u2014and I can\u2019t use the \u201CH\u201D word\u2014there are double standards on the Government benches that are littered all the way through this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to raise specific questions around clause 37 in Part 3 of this bill. We all know that the only reason we\u2019re having a referendum on recreational cannabis issues is because it was advocated very heavily by the Green Party. We equally know that the Green Party at the last election was in a battle with The Opportunities Party as to who could be more pro-dope. Now, my concern is whether the Green Party, that has got taxpayers\u2019 funding of over $1 million a year through Parliamentary Service, can spend $1 million of public money promoting one side of the referendum, while at the same time, later in the bill, we\u2019re restricting what anybody else can spend. Now, how could anybody say that\u2019s fair, that the good old private person who has a strong view, whether pro- or anti-cannabis, is restricted to a figure, but not the taxpayer expenditure that may be spent by the Green Party? I think that would be quite unfair. My view is that that would not be particularly effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second question I have for the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, is: how effective can the caps on expenditure on advertising really be, when all an organisation needs to do is the morph into two? So if I\u2019ve got a trust and I\u2019m the \u201CNo Dope Trust\u201D or I\u2019m the \u201CDope\u2019s Great Trust\u201D and I\u2019m worried I\u2019m going to exceed the expenditure of the $300,000 limit in Part 3 of this bill, why don\u2019t I just set up the \u201CDope\u2019s a Good Idea No. 2 Trust\u201D or the \u201CDope No. 3 or 4 Trust\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fec54233a8842a9903de08fbf45ddfb\u0022\u003EChris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CFoundation\u201D might be good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c688aacc47e846d690720372e1a91eb9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, my colleague suggests that you might want to call it a foundation, that has got particular form with the Government as a means of subverting electoral law and the very sorts of provisions that we have in this part. So I say to the Minister in the chair: where is the protection that the very racket that the Deputy Prime Minister in the Government is an expert at doing of subverting electoral law\u2014where are the protections in Part 3 of this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9cca93fcda84c378630983cbf1e9f9a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Very close to the wind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e2d690fea434095aa97e82ac98eb483\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s a matter of the lead story in The Dominion Post today. It does point out that the very questions that we are debating in Part 3 have been rorted, and it is quite fair to ask\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221211288391a34905bab3e6cc6b15915c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Allegedly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250f1750e8e67443d9ed4023df3e4d2d5\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is a matter of public record, and I\u2019m happy to ask: is there any member in this House that\u2019s prepared to put their hand up to say that New Zealand First did not see any donations over $15,000? Does anybody think that\u2019s true?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286968aec83c14d1a83ec69ea1d1c4f87\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Can we come back to the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022764157e1b9a941fea6df3e3f61614c62\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the relevance to this part is that the same regulations are being relied upon here, and I want to ask the Minister in the chair how he is going to protect\u2014as my member said\u2014foundations from being set up to be able to rort the disclosure and the advertising limits that are proposed in this part. My view is that the Minister\u2019s provisions, you could drive a bus through. You could drive a bus through, because you need only set up a very similar trust either arguing for euthanasia or against euthanasia, for cannabis reform, or for any referendum the Government might dream up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill is not just about cannabis and euthanasia. If the Government decided that it wanted to completely distract the electorate, we know they\u2019re in some trouble, they might want to win the election and not have people\u2019s advertising space being used up on whether the Government should or should not be re-elected. They, under this bill, could have 20 referendum under the next election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo I do ask the Minister to address the question as to whether Parliamentary Service\u2019s money can be spent, and why can a person not just set up a second trust to avoid the intent of the limits on expenditure in terms of the campaigns on what referendum there will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00228f00e621139f43599b33f54f9e483fc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f00e621139f43599b33f54f9e483fc1\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My contribution in this instance will be, I think, reasonably narrow. I\u2019ve got a couple of quite particular questions that I would seek the Minister in the chair, Andrew Little, to respond to in a way that\u2019s very helpful in a committee of the whole House stage; it\u2019s a good forum for being able to get clarification on points in which one is genuinely uncertain. I know that there will be a lot of interest\u2014if not now in my particular delivery of the question then in the answer\u2014because it will have an effect, I suspect, on some intentions and plans and the execution thereof next year in relation to at least a couple of referenda that we will have\u2014and as my colleague the Hon Dr Nick Smith points out, it\u2019s at least theoretically possible that there could be more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy specific question is in relation to clause 40 within Part 3, \u201CMeaning of referendum expenses\u201D. I actually don\u2019t want to ask a question about what the phrase \u201Creferendum expenses\u201D means, so much as: from what point do we consider such expenses are incurred? Foreshadowing what may be the answer\u2014I genuinely don\u2019t know; I approach this task with some humility\u2014I genuinely seek clarification on this. In clause 42 we have the meaning of \u201Cregulated period\u201D, so it might be that the answer to my question is that expenses are occurred within the regulated period, and those are counted as such, but, otherwise, in relation to the two referenda that we know will be likely at the 2020 election, there are some possibilities as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn the case of the referendum on liberalising\u2014whether decriminalising or legalising\u2014drug use, it\u2019s possible that under the dictates of this Act governing the conduct of referendum, the referendum would apply from the time that this Act passes in Parliament at its third reading or perhaps the Royal assent. We\u2019re only talking about one day\u2019s difference, so we\u2019ll gloss over that; let\u2019s just say \u201Cthe passing of the Act.\u201D Or it could be that they apply from the time that the Government advises, in some official manner, exactly what the question will be. Another alternative would be that the election year\u2014and by that I suppose I mean calendar year 2020, as opposed to 12 months prior to the election; it could be writ day, I suppose that has some significance in electoral law terms. But I suspect that the most likely answer is that the \u201Cregulated period\u201D, in clause 42, would be the time that various provisions apply, particularly in relation to when referendum expenses begin to be incurred or accrue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn relation to the End of Life Choice Bill, different options would apply given that that\u2019s taking a slightly different path. In that case it could be, I suppose, the third reading day, the Royal assent, or, again, potentially the passage of this bill, because I suppose it wouldn\u2019t be right; it would be a matter of retrospective lawmaking if we were to say that the conduct leading up to the referendum on the End of Life Choice Act would be governed by the provisions of this legislation before such time as it\u2019s passed. So that\u2019s one quite specific question on which I would be very grateful for an answer from the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThen, second, within this five-minute call, if I may, is just to dig a little bit into the meaning of \u201Cpublish\u201D\u2014that\u2019s in the title of clause 41. I note there is a very long list and quite a broad range of different kinds of acts that constitute publication. The Minister will recall from his study of the legal method, statutory interpretation 101, that having a list of different activities\u2014in this case, activities\u2014implies that other similar things that are like that may also be included. Of course, the list doesn\u2019t purport to be exhaustive; it includes those various things, and all we have specifically excluded is the addressing of one or more persons face to face. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I have a couple of, sort of, questions in relation to this particular provision. One is whether it would not simply be easier to say something like \u201Cby any means whatsoever\u201D, replacing all of paragraph (a) and that long list from Roman numerals (i) to (xi) inclusive with, simply, a very broad statement of \u201Cany means whatsoever\u201D, meaning we don\u2019t need to talk about sending by post or otherwise, disseminating by means of the internet or other electronic medium, and so forth. It seems to me that we could structure that provision much more neatly, simply by saying that the publication in reference to a referendum advertisement includes any means whatsoever, other than, or excluding, by addressing one or more persons face to face. If the Minister can explain the rationale for having that face-to-face exclusion as different from the other means, that would be helpful too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00225c0fac7c4b3b4d77bbf8c94622652480\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c0fac7c4b3b4d77bbf8c94622652480\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Just to respond to the points raised by Chris Penk just now\u2014in relation to the provisions in clause 40 relating to the definition of \u201Creferendum expenses\u201D, that is pretty much taken out of the Electoral Act. It is what I would describe as mutatis mutandis, the same provisions about electoral expenses in the Electoral Act as apply to general election campaigning. So there won\u2019t be anything that members who\u2019ve read the Electoral Act as they\u2019ve prepared for their campaigns will be unfamiliar with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI wasn\u2019t quite clear about what the member\u2019s concerns were in relation to clause 42 and the regulated period, except to say it is pretty clear that whatever the regulated period is for the general election will be the regulated period for the referendums. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThen, finally, in relation to the meaning of \u201Cpublished\u201D, I get the member\u2019s point about trying to find a generalised definition that means we don\u2019t have to list every detail, and the member is correct\u2014a principle interpretation means that the more detail you provide, then the less scope there is for a judge to read in something that doesn\u2019t look like it\u2019s provided for but should be included. But this is the list that has been developed. A lot of this is kind of a \u201Cfor the avoidance of doubt\u201D - type sort of drafting, so to be absolutely clear about what is included, and then, effectively, to exclude a meeting\u2014that it must be possible to have a meeting that doesn\u2019t get caught up in definitions of \u201Cpublish\u201D and therefore whether that contributes or is attributable to or least accountable to your electoral expenses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo I think that\u2019s the intention there, because in the end, whether it\u2019s a referendum or whether it\u2019s the general election electing political representatives, we want good, free-flowing debate. We just want to make sure that those with deeper pockets don\u2019t dominate. But we want, you know, the basic thing, the old street-corner meeting, the stump meeting, the town hall meeting\u2014we want those things to take place. They should not be included in a definition of \u201Cpublish\u201D or \u201Cpublication\u201D. So that, I hope, explains the drafting in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002264298476ca6a42fa9a631c1ffd61e678\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264298476ca6a42fa9a631c1ffd61e678\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve read quite extensively on some of the debates that have occurred in US states around the issues of recreational cannabis that are pertinent to this part, knowing that one of the Government\u2019s key intents around this law is to hold a referendum on recreational cannabis. We are somewhat frustrated that Parliament\u2019s not going to have any say and the public is not going to have any say on the question, and we\u2019ve also found different views between the Government, from the Minister in the chair, Andrew Little, and also from the Green Party on the nature of that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EBut the part that\u2019s quite concerning is that as the commercial cannabis industry has grown in the United States, there\u2019s been a lot of money spent by those that profit from peddling the recreational drug of cannabis in those jurisdictions. So the question I\u2019m interested in from the Minister is what the intent is around overseas corporations who are profiting from recreational cannabis in places like Colorado being able to advertise and promote. Now, those companies would be perfectly free to set up a company of, you know, \u201CCannabis New Zealand\u201D, and then to advertise and spend quite extensively. I can only come to the conclusion when I read Part 3 of this bill that the Government is quite open about those that would profit from a recreational cannabis industry in New Zealand being able to spend quite big money on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI do ask the question in terms of Government policy that\u2014we know that recreational cannabis is substantially more carcinogenic than tobacco, and so we put very extensive restrictions on tobacco companies around advertising their products. My question for the Minister: is it the intent to put, to use the loose term in the US, \u201CBig Cannabis\u201D, which is a very substantive, hundreds of millions of dollars a year industry, an industry that spends a huge amount of money on PR and advertising\u2014is it the intent that those companies that are already being launched and floated, that would profit from the legalisation of recreational cannabis, are to be able to advertise in the referendum next year, and whether he thinks that\u2019s appropriate? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s one of the great difficulties of this framework legislation that doesn\u2019t actually tell us any of the specifics of the issues. We had, very clearly, around the MMP, around the flag, and the other referendum\u2014we were able to have a very specific debate in the Parliament about the advertising rules that would apply. We\u2019re not sure what referendum will apply. This bill gives open licence to Cabinet to have as many referendum as it likes. But because we know that there will be, with this bill, the opportunity for the Government to have a referendum on recreational cannabis, it is fair to ask as to whether those that would profit and have set up companies to be able to promote recreational cannabis\u2014is it the intent of Part 3 that they will be able to participate, and is it the intent that not just one and their expenditure limits, but that they will actually be able to set up multiple entities and spend, effectively, millions of dollars on promoting people to vote Yes to dope?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo I just ask for an indication, whether it be from the Green Party, who are the ultimate architects of the referendum on recreational cannabis; any Government member opposite; or the Minister in the chair: is it the intent that those that would profit from recreational cannabis will be able to advertise and promote a Yes vote on that? And are they open and honest about the fact that, actually, there is no limit on the amount that they could spend, because they could easily set up multiple organisations\u2014each promoter, as it\u2019s referred to in Part 3, could set up an entity to do that\u2014and isn\u2019t that highly contradictory to the Government having such a fierce view of opposition to any advertising around tobacco, and doesn\u2019t that really expose the double standards in the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224274a6c0b1d945c89586c5ddb678fab8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a946923ccaaf47c79dabc5c1809340b0\u0022\u003EPart 4  Miscellaneous provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6d7276c7ff3488985e8c51e026b95d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6d7276c7ff3488985e8c51e026b95d8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I want to draw the House\u2019s attention to clause 85(a) of Part 4 of this bill. I\u2019m going to read directly what it says because it has been described by the Regulations Review Committee unanimously\u2014this is Labour members of Parliament as well who have said that this is a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D provision. This is one of those provisions which the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee and the Regulations Review Committee have said enables Cabinet to overrule law that\u2019s passed by the Parliament. What the bill says is that at any time before the start of the regulation period, the Governor-General by Order in Council\u2014that means Cabinet\u2014can declare an advertisement, a class of advertisement, an activity, or a class of activity not to be a referendum advertisement for the purpose of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s extraordinary. What we\u2019re allowing is\u2014let\u2019s say that they want to describe any ad that\u2019s run by the Green Party promoting people to vote for a Yes vote on the cannabis referendum. They could pass a regulation and say, \u201COh, that\u2019s not an advertisement for the purposes of the Act.\u201D, despite the fact that it would blatantly meet the legal test in the Electoral Act and replicated in this bill or an advertisement that was intended to influence voters. In other words, I have confidence in the current definition in our Electoral Act as to what is a political advertisement: it is an advertisement that attempts to persuade people to vote a particular way\u2014a pretty common-sense, fair definition. So why on earth is the Government promoting a bill that will allow Cabinet to overrule that definition? That is incredibly serious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI\u2019d love to hear in the House from Rino Tirikatene. He voted at the Regulations Review Committee for a letter to the Justice Committee saying \u201CIt should be changed; it\u2019s a \u2018Henry VIII\u2019 provision.\u201D I also say that was Duncan Webb. Duncan Webb is a lawyer from Christchurch. That Labour member of Parliament said, \u201CThis provision 85 is a \u2018Henry VIII\u2019 provision that overrides Parliament and should not be allowed.\u201D I\u2019d also love to hear from Jo Luxton. She too is a member of the Regulations Review Committee. Check the minutes; she\u2019s probably forgotten. She said and wrote unanimously from the Regulations Review Committee saying that clause 85 of this bill is a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D provision that gives the power for Cabinet to overrule parliamentary law that this Parliament has passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAnd here\u2019s the part that really shows how disingenuous the Government is. The Regulations Review Committee even provided the Justice Committee with the amendments that would fix this. We moved at the select committee that those amendments be adopted and it be fixed\u2014it\u2019s wrong; it\u2019s unfair. What did the Labour members of that committee decide to do? Their answer was, \u201COh, we\u2019ve just got to do what the Minister says. This is just part of a bill of disenfranchising Parliament, taking the decisions away from Parliament, and, actually, we don\u2019t care if Cabinet is able to override the Parliament.\u201D Well, I say they should care. They might be naive members that are currently in Government, but they would be screaming from the rooftops if you had Cabinet wanting to pass regulations that could overrule law that has been passed by the Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo the question I want to put to the Minister is: why did the Government not accept unanimously the recommendations of the Regulations Review Committee to clause 85(a) of the bill? And, more particularly, why does the Government want to reserve the power to screw the scrum on the information and advertising campaigns that will operate on the referendum\u2014whatever they might be: euthanasia, abortion? As I say, this bill gives a blank cheque for the Government to have referendum on any topic it likes. Here in this provision we are giving powers to Cabinet to be able to redefine what an advertisement is. It\u2019s wrong, it should be changed, and I\u2019d love a Government member\u2014particularly Jo Luxton who was on the Regulations Review Committee that said it was a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D\u2014to say why she has not followed through on that and is now proposing to vote for that provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8ab15adf1c641829eec6c1566925c74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8ab15adf1c641829eec6c1566925c74\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Part 4, in relation to clause 85\u2014I\u2019ve chosen to focus on that. I don\u2019t have many options available. It\u2019s either that or 84, and I\u2019ll get to that too. But clause 85 \u201CRegulations\u201D\u2014I\u2019ll make slightly different points in relation to those of Dr Nick Smith. I wouldn\u2019t try your patience by repetition, but his point is a very good one on which I would like to build.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBefore I, sort of, get into the detail of the second aspect of that\u2014and Dr Smith\u2019s covered the declaration of advertisements as such, referring back to a previous provision in the bill. I\u2019d like to talk about the prescribing of forms, but just to take a step back before I do that. \u201CThe Governor-General may, by Order in Council, make regulations for all or any of the following purposes:\u201D, that\u2019s what we\u2019re told that can be done by the Governor-General. But just to be clear, that word \u201Cmay\u201D\u2014one doesn\u2019t instruct the Sovereign to do things, so one suggests that Her Excellency, as is currently the case, may do these things, but that\u2019s really a nicety. The reality is that the Governor-General would act on the advice of Ministers. So what we are looking at, just to be very clear for the sake of the record, is a set of provisions that allow, effectively, Cabinet, and a Minister who would make recommendations that would be acted upon to the Governor-General, to do the things that are set out in clause 85.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe aspect regarding declaring referendum advertisements to be such\u2014notwithstanding that the bill already has ways of determining exactly what those things are. That is a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D provision, as Dr Smith has pointed out. I\u2019d like to focus on the next bit, which is that the Governor-General\u2014again, read Minister, effectively\u2014can prescribe forms for any matter in relation to a referendum. Well, that\u2019s very interesting, because at clause 16 of the same bill we have a provision named \u201CForm of referendum voting paper\u201D. So, clearly, this is captured by the \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause at clause 85. So what we\u2019ve got is that the Minister can prescribe a form for any matter in relation to a referendum, and it could hardly be clearer because clause 16, which talks about the form of a referendum voting paper, has the word \u201Cform\u201D and the word \u201Creferendum\u201D in it. So the alignment is just about perfect that this is exactly what we\u2019re talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn that clause\u2014the one that would apply to the Electoral Commission\u2014what we see is that the Electoral Commission can make such a decision and can decide how the law is to be applied. So what we, effectively, have is a quasi-judicial function being carried out by the Electoral Commission that could be overridden by the executive part of the Government. That\u2019s at the heart of what it is to have a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D power. In constitutional terms, that\u2019s\u2014well, it seems a little bit egregious. I don\u2019t know if you can have something that\u2019s a little bit egregious. What the hell, it\u2019s egregious. And so that\u2019s something that we\u2019d like the Minister to address for the record, because, just to be very clear, that\u2019s something on which we are very unhappy about on this side of the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe other aspect which I\u2019ll touch on more quickly within Part 4 is the duty of the Electoral Commission at clause 84. What we see there is that \u201C(1) If the Electoral Commission believes that a person has committed an offence under this Act, [they] must report the facts on which that belief is based to the New Zealand Police.\u201D What we don\u2019t have then is any requirement that the Electoral Commission also notify the person concerned who may have committed an offence and the belief that the Electoral Commission has. So that seems problematic in the context of the principles of natural justice, which have been long held to include that a person has the right to be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo with no opportunity to correct the record or, perhaps, negotiate a manner in which certain conduct could be reduced to below the threshold of an offence, the Electoral Commission must, as a first and only step according to this clause, report the facts as they see them. Their belief, as formed in their somewhat subjective opinion\u2014and I don\u2019t mean that in any way to suggest that it would be improperly reached. But none the less, it is a decision maker coming to a belief without recourse or reference to the person who has conducted or committed the apparent offence. That seems to me unfortunate, at the very least, for the reasons that I\u2019ve described.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo for that reason, Part 4 is hardly able to be supported on this side of the Chamber. It\u2019s overbearing and unfortunate in its inability to allow proper participation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002242ae3aeecf804786b621775734c6c970\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242ae3aeecf804786b621775734c6c970\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I was hoping the Minister in the chair, Andrew Little, would take the opportunity to address the question. We have a select committee of Parliament, the Regulations Review Committee, unanimously saying that Part 4 of this bill contains \u201CHenry VIII\u201D powers. Parliament deserves an explanation from some member of the Government as to why they want to take those sorts of powers. It is simply unacceptable that nobody\u2019s prepared to provide some sort of explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s my suspicion: we know in a very unusual way the Government has decided that an information campaign is going to be provided around the referendum, and that that information campaign, inconsistent with what Labour said in Opposition, would be provided by the Ministry of Justice. Now, what this provision in clause 85 would do is override the legal test of what is an advertisement. What we have in clause 39 is a very reasonable definition, that if you are running a campaign and an advertisement, then the Electoral Commission\u2014I\u2019ve had experience with the Electoral Commission around the definition of what is an electoral advertisement, because we don\u2019t want to have people saying some basic comment in an area suddenly be needing a fine. I\u2019ve actually found the Electoral Commission\u2014and there have been court decisions\u2014very fair in what is an electoral advertisement. But here\u2019s the mischief that could practically come with clause 85. On the issue of recreational cannabis we all know the Drug Foundation has a very pro-cannabis legalisation point of view. The Government, under this provision, could just pass a regulation and just say that any of the information as provided by the Drug Foundation, even though the law says it\u2019s an advertisement persuading people to vote Yes to dope, actually, with a regulation under this section could be excluded from those expenditure limits and those regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, surely these members of the House can see that\u2019s wrong. You can\u2019t screw an argument by saying, \u201CWell, some people can advertise freely.\u201D\u2014and that\u2019s what it says. It says that \u201Cdeclaring an advertisement, a class of advertisements, an activity, or a class of activities not to be a referendum advertisement\u201D for the purpose of the Act. In other words, it\u2019s saying you could pass a regulation to say anything that the ministry says, anything that the Drug Foundation says, well, that\u2019s not an advertisement. As I say, that is very significant for the referendum because, effectively, it gives the Government that free hand to be able to put tight regulations on those that might want to express one point of view but exempt the others from any of the restrictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI say again to this Parliament, four Labour members of Parliament on the Regulations Review Committee said that this provision contained \u201CHenry VIII\u201D powers. They recommend change. Others recommend change. The Government in its sort of bull-headed way is saying \u201CWell, we don\u2019t give a shoot. We just want all the power. We don\u2019t mind if Cabinet overtakes the Parliament.\u201D, just as with the base of this bill where they are taking over the role of Parliament to determine the topic and wording of referendum. They\u2019re even going further and they\u2019re now saying that Cabinet is going to have the right to overrule Parliament\u2019s definition of what is an advertisement over those referendum. So again I say to the Minister in the chair and members opposite, who have not taken a single clause on Part 4, that you have the institution of Parliament and the Regulations Review Committee saying no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe last point I\u2019d make is this, Government members say, \u201COh, there\u2019s no mischief with this bill. You\u2019ve got the Regulations Review Committee as a check on what questions they might have and what referendum they have.\u201D Then we have the very check of the Regulations Review Committee applying to clause 85 and the Government says, \u201CWell, we don\u2019t give a stuff. We\u2019re going to do what we\u2019re going to do anyway.\u201D Why would Parliament have any faith in their argument that there\u2019s a big safeguard, it\u2019s the Regulations Review Committee, when they\u2019re ignoring the Regulations Review Committee on this very provision. It just shows the crock that is part of this Government\u2019s agenda around electoral law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis referendum bill is all about internal coalition negotiations. It\u2019s about stacking the scrum to suit the Government. It is not about actually providing a fair and democratic process by which New Zealand can make decisions. I urge any member of the Government to get up and defend the overriding of the recommendations of the Regulations Review Committee on clause 85. [Bell rung]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis is the fourth call I\u2019ve taken because members opposite are not prepared to address the issue. It is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b071362d89845ef84223ee387f90333\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No one cares.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204e0357b3b6b44e5afc6c754c7953a74\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member says, \u201CNobody cares.\u201D Well, that reminds me, and maybe it\u2019s the Government\u2019s view. The Minister of Internal Affairs says you can\u2019t trust the Parliament, that\u2019s what she said. What this provision says is that Cabinet can override the Parliament on a definition of an electoral advertisement. My colleague has said, \u201CIt\u2019s a shocker.\u201D It is a shocker. But you know what\u2019s even more shocking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239aaf7c701c940df83a28a3407fcbc1f\u0022\u003EHon Kris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: What about you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022648022be5bc04613b35635c37bea073f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d just love the member, rather than\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229150961ba2834888a8bda0e8eb2edb02\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc4be5e280364ae793a6dffdf20bbc6a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Look, take a call. Here\u2019s my question for you: yes, having a personal shot at me is very easy, why not address the issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226235c03b2460491dbcc5de1a46d77796\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It is. It\u2019s very easy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212b43f693c6a49d88621d012cbd519cb\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yip. So why not address the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a359cb195e324be6a3e7f44110dc6354\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Playing the man, not the ball.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022470bd55a768141809e9db5433d289f1a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. He doesn\u2019t have the argument about the issue. Can he explain why in clause 85 we are overruling the decision of the Regulations Review Committee that this is a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause provision? Why are we overriding the view of officials that this is inappropriate? Can he explain to me why Labour members of the Regulations Review Committee voted for a motion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227700d4ae34d2472aa15a0dd054707032\u0022\u003EHon Kris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: Enjoy the view from over there, Dan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e0505598f9a47ae8e42fb03977e316b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Faafoi\u2019s interjecting. Can he explain for me why the Labour members of the Regulations Review Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229447afc4c48b40c986b6bef29078618f\u0022\u003EHon Kris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: Enjoy the view from over there, mate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238b6468e60754fbcb21c14ade6c1a7af\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeec416550f74cc0b167c5fcbca687f7\u0022\u003EHon Kris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m talking to somebody else. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022427b5ccf0d414357a24be7d737b4d2cf\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019d just love to understand: why did Labour members of the Regulations Review Committee say that this was a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D provision that should be changed? What\u2019s changed Labour\u2019s mind? Why do they want the power of Cabinet to be able to overrule Parliament on the definition of an electoral advertisement? You know what it shows? What it shows is that the current Government has absolutely no respect for the institution of Parliament. They are prepared to ride roughshod over 165 years, where referendum have only been held with the authority of Parliament at general elections. They are roughshodding over the very advice of officials around this. They\u2019ve got a completely inconsistent approach around the different referendum that are being proposed. Now they want the power for Labour and New Zealand First sitting in the Cabinet room to overrule the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI just say to colleagues opposite, it seems that what Tracey Martin said is correct. When Tracey Martin said \u201CThe Government view is you can\u2019t trust the Parliament.\u201D, she was actually saying it was correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fcb4b80508440f8b836d2b8b04ca724\u0022\u003EHon Kris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s put it to a vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255862f590cac4d58a823e4ad6d443209\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does the member agree with Tracey Martin\u2019s statement that you can\u2019t trust the Parliament? I\u2019d love an answer. Does he agree with Tracey Martin\u2019s view that you can\u2019t trust the Parliament, and is that why clause 85 allows Cabinet to overrule the Parliament, something that has been opposed since the English revolution and the development of the bill of rights, and the relative powers of Parliament and Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI have to repeat again, that shows complete disrespect for the work of the Regulations Review Committee. It shows complete disrespect for Parliament that the Minister in the chair and Labour members opposite cannot even get to their feet for five minutes and explain why the Regulations Review Committee and the serious concerns about clause 85(a)\u2014some explanation, some debate, some view as to why this particular Government believes that \u201CHenry VIII\u201D - type powers that allow a Cabinet to overrule Parliament are appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIt really just says to me that this Government doesn\u2019t give a hoot about our democratic traditions. We see that in the sort of mischief that\u2019s gone on with New Zealand First. We see it with the mischief of this overall Referendums Framework Bill. We see it in the mischief of clause 85(a). They are undermining the basic democratic traditions that are so much a part of New Zealand. It is disgraceful. It is why this will only be a one-term Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c4fd2f15fd24de8b7c33f9f322b49ab\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: That member is disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c3c83779765484b872192f523886aac\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I just simply say to the member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2dbd7d7bdd24b49bdd0ca02f339d29e\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What outrageous things to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df562668eefc4e38b2b08459e1813ee3\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, why don\u2019t you get to your feet and debate the clause? Not a single Labour member has been prepared to get to their feet and to argue why the Government is passing a clause that his own Labour colleagues have said breaches basic conventions and is a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D power. I\u2019d be far more reflective if a single Labour member would get to their feet and say, \u201CThis is why we\u2019re doing it.\u201D I can only conclude that not a single Labour member is prepared to defend it. Actually, this is just about power. This is just about Cabinet doing whatever the hell it likes and damn the democratic and parliamentary traditions that are so important to our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222e89806f192947359a98b134ee5d9d4a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002281da221ee821475484fd1867631b3dfb\u0022\u003EClause 3  Repeal\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002206bf597018414680b0a79e92930614c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206bf597018414680b0a79e92930614c3\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Clause 3 of this bill exposes the rort that is behind this bill. I want to reflect on what the Minister in the chair, Andrew Little, said in introducing this bill when it first came into the House. He said, \u201CThis has nothing to do with the particular coalition issues the Government has.\u201D He said, \u201CWe need a framework, a framework for referendum so that when we have issues that are required to go to a referendum, we can then manage them.\u201D Except clause 3 says that this is a power that\u2019s only going to be given to the current Government. That is, what the Government is saying is, \u201CWe\u2019re going to grab the powers off the Parliament to set the topics and the wording of referendum, but we\u2019re only going to do it for us; it\u2019s not a power that we ever want to give to a future Government.\u201D That, in my view, just exposes how shallow and opportunistic this bill is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill is not about providing a sound framework for referendum to be held at general elections. We know from the Legislation Advisory Committee\u2014in their submission, they made the point very strongly that this bill compromises free and fair elections, that this bill is a fundamental shift of power from the Parliament to the executive, and they argued that by having a termination clause that this bill only applies to the current Government really does undermine it being a genuine electoral reform for advancing and improving New Zealand\u2019s democracy. This is a crude, dirty deal to be able to hold the Government together with the diametrically opposed views between the Green Party and New Zealand First on cannabis. So \u201CLet\u2019s break the conventions around every one of New Zealand\u2019s 20 referendum held at general elections being authorised by the Parliament. Let\u2019s take Parliament out of the picture, but let\u2019s just do it for us.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s a question I\u2019ve got for members opposite. If a future National Government wanted legislation of this sort and give the power to Cabinet so that a future National Cabinet could just decide to have a referendum on getting rid of the M\u0101ori seats\u2014let\u2019s have a referendum on capping the amount of tax, capping the amount of debt, any of those issues\u2014would members opposite agree that that\u2019s appropriate? Absolute silence. Every Labour member in the Chamber has got their head down. They know that if National did that, they would object. We know from their own track record they would object. When we had the flag referendum, they argued very strongly that there should be a full parliamentary process about the issue of the flag. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo can some Labour member please put the case as to why Labour\u2019s position on referendum is that they should go through a full parliamentary process when it comes to flags when National\u2019s the Government, but when Labour\u2019s the Government they can have a different set of rules. Can some Labour member explain to me why this only applies\u2014if the Minister in the chair is correct and this is a sensible long-term reform so that Governments can have referendum, why does clause 3 say it only applies to 2020? It\u2019s because it\u2019s a rort. It\u2019s because it\u2019s against New Zealand\u2019s democratic traditions. It\u2019s because this is the power that they want, but they don\u2019t want any future National Government to have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWell, actually, the National Party has high values around electoral law, and that\u2019s why every\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b569052ca52c4f758e823ecc8ed0c32b\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b052feb503c43cb82ce35f84fc099fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The member in the chair laughs. Let me put the case. Every single electoral law introduced by Amy Adams, Judith Collins, and Simon Power was consulted on with the Opposition. What consultation was there with the National Opposition on this bill or the other two? Zero\u2014zero! Not one Government electoral law reform bill was passed by the previous Government without multiparty support. This has none. This provision, clause 3 of this bill, does expose the fact that this is a bill of political convenience. This is a bill that, as the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee says, the moment one Government pulls this dirty trick, it has changed the convention of 165 years and it gives licence to any future Government in New Zealand to use the same. That\u2019s sad for New Zealand\u2019s democracy. The right to call a referendum at a general election and the right to determine the wording should rest with Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002226748d737db945e794694355f5489a96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226748d737db945e794694355f5489a96\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Clause 3 relates to the repeal of the Referendums Framework Bill and it\u2019s my submission, if I can put it like that, that, actually, this clause is completely unnecessary because one of a few different scenarios will apply after the next election. And the reason I\u2019m talking about the next election, of course, the next general election even, is that that\u2019s exactly what the bill sets up: a regime to apply only up to and including that date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo the reasons that there\u2019s no need to have this provision repealing the Act on 1 July 2022 are that the Labour members, Minister Little and perhaps others, have indicated that if they are returned to Government, then they will look to replace this regime with a more root and branch reform, a more thoroughgoing review and reform\u2014I think was the expression\u2014of the electoral law. So in that case, it would be perfectly open to them, in that unfortunate situation that they are returned to power, to simply repeal the Act at this time. So we don\u2019t need a specific provision in there at the moment for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe other possibility following the election, is that National would be\u2014I won\u2019t say \u201Creturned to Government\u201D\u2014\u201Creturned\u201D in the sense of coming back to the Treasury benches, having had a three-year interregnum, three years of neglect. So in that scenario, I am reasonably confident that National would repeal this particular piece of legislation and so we don\u2019t need particularly to have that set out as an automatic mechanism. In fact, I think that we\u2019d all on this side of the House\u2014when we\u2019re on that side of the House; the other side of the House\u2014take great pleasure in doing so. So it would be a shame to deny us that great opportunity. And so I suppose we\u2019d have the opportunity to try and beat the clock and repeal it before 1 July 2022. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut the other reason\u2014and it\u2019s more structural and relating to the bill itself and not merely my reflections on the politics of the day\u2014that this clause is actually unnecessary is because it sets out very clearly elsewhere that it will be applying only to the next general election after the bill is passed into law. In other words, there\u2019s no need to repeal it following the general election of 2020, because it will be ineffective albeit still in force from that time onwards. So actually, there\u2019s no need for that provision, as I\u2019ve said now, and I think I have provided three pretty decent reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe question then becomes: why are we repealing it on 1 July 2022? If there\u2019s some particular significance to that date\u2014for example, the end of the world\u2014then that would be worth knowing. Although in that situation, as well, I suppose there\u2019s not much point in needing to repeal the Act. It would probably be the least of our concerns at that time. But actually, logically speaking, if we were to set up a regime whereby the Act would be automatically repealed, then\u2014I just remind you, Madam Chair. Excuse me, I miscalculated my time. I was going to give you a two-minute warning for the benefit of all concerned, but, in fact, it\u2019s a five-minute call; it just feels longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe logical thing to do would be to have the Act automatically repealed the day after the next general election, because what we\u2019ve got is some sort of funny arrangement where we\u2019ve got, roughly speaking, two years\u2014maybe a bit less, maybe a bit more than that\u2014following the next election until the point at which it\u2019s repealed. So we\u2019ll sort of be in a no man\u2019s land, if you\u2019ll excuse the gender-specific expression\u2014I probably shouldn\u2019t use that\u2014a no person\u2019s land, if you\u2019ll excuse the species-specific description.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn any case, I\u2019m just going to sort of move on and I think at that point, with the bell ringing, I think that\u2019s probably regarded as being saved by the bell. And in any case, I\u2019d like to see the Act repealed a lot sooner; in fact, probably preferable still to all those different scenarios I\u2019ve outlined, not to pass the wretched thing in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u0022c80f41f8e0a749748c48be5daafd453d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c80f41f8e0a749748c48be5daafd453d\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I very much appreciate the opportunity to begin my contribution to this debate. This is one of these debates that you can sit and listen to, as I have been; in fact, I\u2019ve been listening up in my office as it has unfolded. In fact, it\u2019s one of those unique environments where you can have the volume down and still hear my colleague.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe6e0ea44da24e63892f96100881afc6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Nobody ever doubts what I\u2019m thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270e06ab5baf94d0184cda113415139ce\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER\u003C/span\u003E: This is true, but there is a point here of integrity. When you actually cut to the core of the debate that we\u2019re having, this is one of integrity and whether the proposition of, essentially, this Minister, the Minister of Justice, and the Government that sits in support of this passes the sniff test. And what it is to me is we have a Minister who prides himself on holding himself and his ministry and his contributions to a high level of integrity. Yet when I look and read on this, where it is, essentially, saying that the convention that we have always had, that it is this Parliament that, ultimately, debates and discusses and designs and signs off on particular points of referendums, which have a high threshold in and of themselves\u2014we have a history that it is issues of moment that we take to the country and we debate them here and how the question should be framed and it is Parliament that, ultimately, signs that off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThat is a principle, and I think it\u2019s a principle that when you cut the politics, all of us in this House understand to have power and be enduring. And now we have a Minister in the chair who has not answered the specific question that my colleagues have put time and time again. Why would you deviate from that convention? Why would you deviate from that point of principle that this Parliament is best placed to debate and, finally, come to a considered view as to what the questions should be that we ask the nation to reflect on? That question has been put to him directly and there is silence, and I do not think it does him a service, for on so many other aspects of his contribution, whilst I am not aligned to his politics, I respect his perspective. But on this, on this bill, on this clause where the convention is broken, and rather than Parliament being the place where we finally land the wording of a national referendum, it is now to be taken to Cabinet. And I look across\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222349738e3ec14de18dc3d01e0e64c032\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: In fairness, I say to the member, actually, it isn\u2019t this clause. This clause repeals this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ed2b3265ea64332bb1d14c2243314f4\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and this clause says that once we have landed that position, it only applies for this Parliament and this election and then it returns back to normal convention. So why is that? Why do it in the first place when you have a convention that we all accept is the appropriate way to manage? Imbedded in this clause is an assumption that is what it should return to as a convention in the future, but this Minister is silent on why. What is the justification for the deviation from that convention that this Parliament is best placed to finally sign off on the design of questions that go to the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThere are people, looking across, who actually understand. Actually, if you have a quiet conversation, probably, out there, they\u2019d agree, but they\u2019re not saying in here, and the fact that the Minister is silent I find unusual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EI look across to others who have high standing in terms of a position of integrity on some matters of constitutional issues\u2014potentially even the Green Party. And I look and see the co-leader of the Green Party James Shaw, who is silent, has not made a contribution to this, and I ask him, as someone who is part of this Government: how comfortable is he that you have a convention that this Parliament is the place where we sign off and debate the wording of referendums that we take to the country, yet here we have a bill which says, \u201CNo\u2014we\u2019re going to take it to the purview of Cabinet just for this election, and then we\u2019ll return it back to the convention.\u201D? To the Minister: why the deviation? Can you please stand up and answer not only my question but also the country\u2019s question: why the deviation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00222c6390b385fe446694b8263dff90559c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c6390b385fe446694b8263dff90559c\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcadd2153e9d49c8a1cf8243a592b761\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcadd2153e9d49c8a1cf8243a592b761\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019ve been listening here tonight and taking the odd call on this Referendums Framework Bill. Here we are talking about clause 3. I had to do a double take. I could not believe that this bill is only for the next election and, in fact, is repealed after that in 2022. So while we have been debating the substance of the bill and whether Parliament should retain the authority to decide the question and the options for referendum, now we come to the piece of the bill which talks about repealing the law so that it\u2019s only available for the next election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ENow, I have been thinking to myself: why is it that this only relates to 2020? If a bill is good enough for one election, why is it not good enough for other elections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241602f496e8340c0b514cfacf2b310c3\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Have a go, Yule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212aecabb13a4490ba39a0c83f1245f0a\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: Take a call, Kieran McAnulty. Please tell me why this law is only relevant for the next election and therefore will be repealed. To me, there can be only one reason, and one reason alone, why this bill is only applicable to the next election, and that is because it is a rort. It is rort, and this Government wants the ability to control the question and the options for the cannabis referendum, and that will only be decided by Cabinet, of which Labour and New Zealand First are party to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI really would like someone on the other side to take a call and to explain. Otherwise, the public of New Zealand and members on this side of the House can only draw one conclusion: that this law is designed to game the system in a way that determines the question and the options only for the next Government in the next election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThis is clause 3 that we\u2019re debating. I have yet to hear anyone from the other side\u2014I have been in here since dinner time, and I have heard no one from the opposite side explain to me very clearly why it is that this bill relates to only 2020. If it is good enough for the House to consider at the next election, then surely it\u2019s good enough for proceeding elections after that. So I would appreciate it if somebody, even the Minister in the chair, who\u2019s gotten a bit comfy\u2014he hasn\u2019t gotten up in some time\u2014could please explain to me and the public of New Zealand why this Act is applicable only in the next election\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e3a43c2a1c5421484b0c7c55b681dc3\u0022\u003ERaymond Huo\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all in the departmental report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284a305918af443598b3df6baaf19fa85\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, take a call\u2014take a call\u2014and explain to the public of New Zealand why it is. Take a call, Raymond\u2014take a call. All you have to do is take a call and you can explain the departmental report for the public of New Zealand and for members on this side of the Chamber who may not have read the departmental report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019re talking about here is very simple\u2014why it is that this law applies to only one election\u2014and we can draw only one conclusion from that, and that is that it is a rort to game the system, and members on that side of the Chamber, all they can do is laugh about it. All they can do is laugh. For them, this is a game. This is unbelievable that they are talking about taking the powers away from Parliament and putting them in the hands of a select few, and all they can do is laugh about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022 data-id=\u00223138aee7750f4e7397ae70e33a7d300a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223138aee7750f4e7397ae70e33a7d300a\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I wish to talk about clause 3 specifically because this typifies the cynicism of this bill. It typifies exactly why we shouldn\u2019t be supporting this bill. At the end of the day, we have a piece of legislation put before this House at the convenience of the Greens in some backroom deal that said, \u201CWe want to have a referendum on legalising cannabis.\u201D That\u2019s what this bill is about, and I notice the co-leader of the Green Party sits there quietly listening to the Leader of the House yet, at the end of the day, in any normal environment, he would be outraged\u2014outraged\u2014that this was happening, because for 165 years the Parliament of New Zealand has decided what the wording of a referendum would be, when it\u2019s going to be done, and how it\u2019s going to apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EThis specific clause says that, after this election, after we\u2019ve had a referendum on legalising cannabis\u2014and now, we know, on end of life choice\u2014this provision vanishes. So 165 years, a coalition agreement comes along, the Greens do a deal in the back room\u2014because legalising cannabis in New Zealand is so really important to the future of this country!\u2014they do a deal and everybody on the other side laughs. They jest at what\u2019s happening here, but this is a piece of legislation of convenience\u2014no other reason, no integrity, no commonality with the history of the importance and the sanctity of this decision making. We can\u2019t even debate in this House what the question is, and, at the end of the day, this House should be paramount. What we are doing here is allowing the executive of New Zealand to determine by Order in Council the wording of the referendum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from the Minister tonight that, at some stage next year, we will see a clear draft of the wording of the legislation. We don\u2019t actually know yet whether the referendum is going to be binding, and here we are at nearly 10 p.m. deciding as part of this that, after 2020, this will vanish off the radar.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a31252473283448b9ee4ddd642e022f7\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Into the ether.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c7d6da5b6b44def8cc359b027d7da55\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE\u003C/span\u003E: Into the ether. In the meantime, there is nothing whatsoever to stop Cabinet, by Order in Council, from promoting other referenda at the 2020 election. Now, the Minister has shaken his head tonight when other people have suggested that, but so far I haven\u2019t heard him stand up and say there is not going to be another topic discussed at a referendum. So we could have, through the rest of this Parliament, a decision made by Cabinet to simply put another issue before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00229b20c3a945374f65b4e750cea28904cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b20c3a945374f65b4e750cea28904cc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, but the time has come for us to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported progress on the Referendums Framework Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201911205edcf39894c44255a079dc1023813a65000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.55 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"