"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd7507d318284b0e8529d18caf3a4240\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 3 DECEMBER 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002216a8244a21a54562bcd514a512583048\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 3 DECEMBER 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269c8fe85c754414dbd6446a85f9d8e97\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce46ce831a2c4681a15735d6999b3c02\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae1d8b692bcc49d8a8d5ec632c078773\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9837124aead4cffa38090592266b811\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9837124aead4cffa38090592266b811\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Transport: What recent progress has been made on regional roading projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022877567cd4abc4db88e9e4c86836668c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022877567cd4abc4db88e9e4c86836668c4\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E With characteristic modesty, I would like to announce to the House that the Taip\u0101 bridge championed by the Rt Hon Winston Peters in the year 2014 was opened on behalf of the New Zealand Transport Agency, the community, and myself yesterday. That bridge suffered nine long years of neglect, and it has now been opened in the second year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290a77ee7d6b0480a9dedf6697cc73688\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234e6c603566141c7bee6aa641dff917f\u0022\u003EMark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits will the new bridge bring to the local community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265772a2baeba4340b1f6f4b67109c6fd\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: The completion of this bridge fulfils the need for trust, reliability, and delivery. After two years of suitable leadership, the people of Taip\u0101 have enjoyed not only a bridge but the improvements to stormwater infrastructure at the local school\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9b5b50dac2b4aacae7ea7433769860d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Not the responsibility of the Associate Minister of Transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fc55542ea2b40759a3a58cbed490021\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In actual fact, the development of the bridge required the relocation of a memorial to the local school, which required an improvement to water infrastructure, reflective of the wide-ranging responsibilities I hold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f2b2ecd3666457393ba21161078fbec\u0022\u003EMark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: What other regional transport projects are progressing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022637dfd5a812045cf92fcefc72626eca6\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: State Highway 43, otherwise known as the Forgotten World Highway, a particularly symbolic name, as much of the regional areas of New Zealand have suffered the \u201CForgotten World\u201D scenario as a consequence of neglect for at least nine years\u2014$9.6 million from the Provincial Growth Fund will ensure not only that the unsealed section is sealed but that new opportunities will arise through improving the Tangarakau Gorge, an important freight route for beef, lamb, dairy businesses, and bees. Belonging to a party so pro-farming, that\u2019s good news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c4f0347de0b408d80974e129e63b00d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Jones, that\u2019s one bridge; what happened to the other nine bridges that Simon Bridges promised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d05a3ebc5a24dafa916bceeb319497c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! There is no ministerial responsibility for that Bridges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e91ea7362654fae9ea2c6332a076b87\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4752438a1a64973a46d5d3bdcf9838d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4752438a1a64973a46d5d3bdcf9838d\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022feba8da26c834e129f017b99cf93e31b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022feba8da26c834e129f017b99cf93e31b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, especially my statement that nearly every school and community in New Zealand will benefit from a capital injection next year valued at $693 per student to bring forward urgent school property improvement. I\u2019m proud that students and teachers will be the first to benefit from our infrastructure package. We are taking advantage of historically low interest rates to improve school buildings and grounds, creating jobs up and down the country. It\u2019s the biggest capital injection for school maintenance funding in at least 25 years. It\u2019s also great for local tradespeople as schools engage local builders, plumbers, landscapers, roofers, and those to re-carpet the floors. This has been well received across the country except, sadly, by the members opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ad6eb99bcc042cd87d8a36eacdc406d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Why has economic growth nearly halved since her Government started?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e67ebe1014904cc884e21fb6106f01ce\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I would reflect on the fact that the member experienced some relatively modest economic growth when he was in office. He, of course, turned and looked at the economic environment, but, somehow, the economic environment in which New Zealand exists doesn\u2019t matter. We are in a situation where global headwinds are having an impact on just about everyone that we compare ourselves to. Relative to others, at 2.4 percent we are doing very well. The OECD also holds that up with its latest analysis too. So, relative to others, I think we can hold our heads up high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f32b314c307748de8c39fe96baa519fc\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Why has monthly job growth decreased nearly 70 percent since she\u2019s been Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6b2b1fbef8247a1a06cf8be1fca3561\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: My recollection is that with some of the lowest unemployment rates that we\u2019ve had in a decade and job creation, from my recollection, sitting at around 80,000, at the same time\u2014very proud on this side of the House\u2014we also care about what happens to wages, and they are at some of the highest rates that we\u2019ve seen in a decade, at over 4 percent. We know that New Zealanders are benefiting from a Government that looks both at putting people into jobs\u2014but good, decent, well-paying jobs\u2014at the same time as growing jobs. It\u2019s bizarre to, in one breath, have the member criticise announcements that help job creation and, on the other hand, question us over it. We are doing both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022604bc2fe162f44b785349cdcfd3d64f5\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that the cost of living has increased sharply in the last two years, with petrol prices up and rents rising on average almost $50 a week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b2bc7d03e3b4fd7a8aaa0a697fee49d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: We continue to have this stoush around rent rises. What I\u2019d point to is Statistics New Zealand\u2019s latest rent measures, which show annual rents rose at 2.1 percent from a year ago. That\u2019s the lowest annual growth in over three years. Within that, the flow measure of Auckland rents, our biggest rental market, fell 1 percent. The last time there was a larger negative move in Auckland rents was in July 2009. On the cost of living, I would also add this is a Government that, when we came in, recognised we needed to focus on low and modest income earners. We cancelled that member\u2019s tax cut, we gave it to families who needed it most, and, on average, by the time our Families Package rolls out, families will be on average $75 a week better off. That is directly to ensure that families can meet cost of living issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246f842b45ecd41ef9210f3326d4a5c9c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Why does she think seven out of nine measures of child poverty have worsened under her Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ac6425ea9a345dc8d1502ab75beb404\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Because that measure was focused up until 2017, and that member did nothing about poverty. It\u2019s a measure of what you didn\u2019t do, not what we didn\u2019t do, and I would thank the member to stop blaming this Government for what his Government didn\u2019t do, because that is what those statistics showed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235e81ea557b040a392742c047546c51a\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What, then, does she say to the head of the Christchurch City Mission, who says, \u201CThings were much better under the previous Government. We are underfunded. The poverty we see is worse.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fb4856a587443db97f06a3eec6c0ac6\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Then I would ask the member whether or not the last Government introduced a winter energy payment, increases to the family tax credit, removed some of the punitive sanction that was hitting families disproportionately, brought in a Best Start payment that goes to families with newborns and extends to years two and three of those on middle and low incomes, extended paid parental leave, and made sure that those who need additional assistance are getting it through the Ministry of Social Development. Anyone who claims that we have somehow not done as much as the last Government\u2014I would seriously question what they are basing that on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f56a91153a941a7988fa049aedd8305\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Why have food grants doubled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263b94539ff6640d7bea74f594a7edda1\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Because we give people support when they need it. If the member wants to create a situation, a perverse situation, where we focus on getting that number down by sacrificing people\u2019s ability to access the help they need\u2014I would rather see people supported than living in cars without the help they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fdec2d3face47a0905cd0d06d3862ea\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Why have no significant roading or other major infrastructure projects started under her Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfb806fa0d754312ada61537a05cfc77\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I completely reject the premise of that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291e5c60d219243888be6d47ef4a4cf15\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister stand by her Government\u2019s action of rushing legislation through Parliament to ban firearms in only nine days in April?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da5ff6f8e0a34e43a1c6486244e4f873\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely stand by it, because it meant that we\u2019ve got tens of thousands of dangerous, military-style automatic weapons off our streets, and I think that\u2019s broadly supported by New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022844927a0e365424bac89d1db01568bb4\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why can\u2019t the Prime Minister accept that rushed legislation leads to unintended consequences and accidents, such as 37\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c9f861a61c745ed8813d43c6c28649e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! That\u2019s two questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc0496d632cc431fbcab5925860109a7\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thousand people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9d685f9de12477b91099f9360edc09e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! When I tell the member he\u2019s had his two questions, he stops.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bab1a063c2ee473ebf42560aad5eabe0\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Standing Orders state very clearly that you\u2019re allowed to make the question intelligible. I asked if she accepted there were mistakes. The question is not intelligible if I\u2019m not allowed to give an example of the mistake, so I don\u2019t see how that could possibly be out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cca8ceacdf0d4c4997eec99cb55145b5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member had given one, I would\u2019ve let him; he gave two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb39ff9f10748adac0ee8daeb8bcdf7\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I had not given one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc70ff7d23984febb9ce40b88e318aad\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, you have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e28d2a11311499ab6d97503b2b9f69b\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Ihum\u0101tao land dispute be resolved before Christmas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eca30055f78c469294a8e36ac478d344\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: We of course will seek to have it resolved, the time line of which I hope is as soon as possible. I\u2019m sure that member would share the ambition of seeing this peacefully resolved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b93381c222d84c8ea5feb47ac6b723d4\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Will her Government\u2019s electoral law introduced today deal with the situation where foundations and trusts receive donations which are then provided to political parties for electoral purposes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9c667261cb445f097a6715360661710\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, the question I got asked on the tiles was whether or not it would deal with the more recent foreign donation example of the National Party. The answer to that is, actually, that\u2019s a bit more complex. Obviously, that\u2019s something the Ministry of Justice has asked for a bit more time to work on, that issue, and I look forward to the cooperation of the Opposition in developing those proposals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e4e09fb7f514de2aebf0752c985ef06\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister deflected and didn\u2019t come anywhere close to my precise question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dedfb9dd4e6344c9b406122b5750ad16\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I suggest the member listens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4622120f94f4b95b104ffc1baac3272\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Will her Government\u2019s electoral law introduced today deal with the situation where foundations and trusts receive donations which are then provided to political parties for election purposes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220655fc4942d64582a693692aa19e2aa8\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member well knows that it focuses on foreign donations\u2014again, I\u2019ve just acknowledged, though, the scope of which does not cover the substantive issue that some have raised around the way the National Party have used foreign donations. That\u2019s an area of work where we need a bit more time because it is a bit more complex. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220616fce06aa94c119e7e535886c77663\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CGenghis Khan\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c903aab0d9d497b94752dec84637772\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Looking backwards, Mr Jones, doesn\u2019t help\u2014no one else has a voice like yours, and it will be turned down for the rest of question time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022059a25a9f1b94d3aa354d5c1e6be8c02\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u00221b0d9e363d7f44f0a1fb7c63edfc39d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b0d9e363d7f44f0a1fb7c63edfc39d7\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What investments is the Government making in most State schools so that they can upgrade and modernise their classrooms over the next 24 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002229477943e7bb474989ad00ce4c532bc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229477943e7bb474989ad00ce4c532bc7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Some very good news. On Sunday, the Prime Minister announced that $400 million is being spent so that most State schools across New Zealand can bring forward urgent school property improvements over the next two years. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208596a2336fb452bb657295a7f2a2343\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I\u2019d like to hear the Minister, rather than the seals in the background.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252952cb153cc4e3993069affe48995b6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: This is the biggest capital injection for school maintenance funding in at least 25 years and is the first part of the Government\u2019s wider infrastructure package. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f49dab169422441ebf106159bacfcf83\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: How many schools will benefit from the Government\u2019s latest investment in school property? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c46db81d7e841478e0da59013b76144\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very pleased to say that 2,050 schools will receive funding from the package, with benefit for 661,000 students. Allocations will be based on recent roll numbers. The smallest schools will receive no less than $50,000, the larger schools will receive up to a maximum of $400,000, and special schools will receive $200,000 each, regardless of their roll size, to recognise their property requirements. Schools will be able to spend this money on things like upgrades, replacing roofing, replacing stormwater and drainage systems, installing energy-efficient heating systems, and resurfacing outdoor courts and paved areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fdf47d0c1054d68b0d908d64bd74673\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: How will schools apply for the increased funding to upgrade their classrooms and facilities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8f69604aa2b4fadbd9a0373f015eac5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: A very good question. Schools are now able to go directly to the Ministry of Education with their property plans, and the school can then go out and obtain quotes for the work. This means that they\u2019ll be able to use their existing contractor relationships and local providers to deliver that work. A quarter of our State schools are in small and isolated communities, which means that this cash injection is going to help to assist in stimulating regional economies as well as benefiting their local schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de9b2552921146dda8e7f3ca97054133\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: What does the school property funding announced on Sunday by the Prime Minister mean for schools in Wairarapa? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272683b547dfe42a1a5f0b5fa1befd1a9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very pleased to tell the member that there are 52 schools in the Wairarapa that will receive a total of just under $7 million for their property budgets to bring forward their upgrade work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d578e310144720a339635bc906a3de\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: What does the school property funding announced on Sunday by the Prime Minister mean for the schools in the mighty East Coast?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240949435f9994516a1708d66fcdf35a7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Even better news. I\u2019m pleased to tell the member that the 90 schools in the East Coast will receive a total of $12.3 million to upgrade their properties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d8f81007c374089beb91a54aa2142e1\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: What other recent investments has the Government been making in school property? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022053b85effee34315a2f1e035458a16a2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very pleased to say that this latest investment comes on top of the $1.2 billion that we invested into school capital through the Wellbeing Budget to ensure that we\u2019re keeping up with roll growth. This Government, so far, has announced the upgrade or new build of at least 1,100 classrooms, benefiting 33,000 students across the country, and 726 new classrooms have been built or upgraded, benefiting 15,000 students since the Government took office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c69cf2fd9ee47eca6339dcbd44b4682\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u00224ed1c9df4dfc492ea06484b1636d0fa6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ed1c9df4dfc492ea06484b1636d0fa6\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3671caf4ae24bdd8a0f302f9fde766f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3671caf4ae24bdd8a0f302f9fde766f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, especially today\u2019s official opening of the Cancer Control Agency, who will play a critical role in ensuring all New Zealanders get world-class cancer care, no matter who they are or where they live. Modernising our approach to cancer won\u2019t happen overnight, but with strong leadership from the agency, a greater focus on prevention, screening, and treatment, we\u2019re well placed to make progress. In doing this work, I do want to acknowledge the family of Blair Vining, who, of course, was integral in some of the advocacy around greater consistency of care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f2afc9809464faaa956704669915868\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement that it was \u201Calways a part of the policy design\u201D to allow authorised firearms dealers to get greater access to information regarding the gun buy-back scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221942657d2ecf4cc6b71934d5dc45510f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: My reference there was to the fact that dealers had sought to be agents who are able to collect firearms, store them, and then hand them over to police as part of the buy-back. The feedback we had when we were looking at the Australian model was that some gun owners would prefer to hand over their guns to a dealer rather than to return them to the police. We made provision for that in the development of the programme which enabled dealers to be part of those arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262b97b4d2ef34bae892d7b726bfcacb8\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: How many people have accessed private data from the gun buy-back database?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216419903f14d4274a43c208d8bd84bb7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The advice that I have received via the authorised agents in this case, which is SAP, is that one person was able to access that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292272c81efd045b0abe1d4c383d81b44\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: When was the data first accessed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201ae21ea49974fb0b1f750ddadf8d177\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m aware that the police were advised yesterday. The member will forgive me if I can\u2019t tell you exactly when the access was obtained, but my belief is recently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022603c90e068fe43968e82daef02894db8\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is she certain her police Minister was right when he said that the only group who has shared this information are the Council of Licensed Firearms Owners\u2019 lawyers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afc079ef20124eb3b99b9a9e9653d9ef\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, can you repeat the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8d9c367b6cb4acc9806b715518364f9\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is she certain her police Minister was right when he said that the only group who has shared this information are the Council of Licensed Firearms Owners\u2019 lawyers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e29f0d1f170849008f185da945de416c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, we\u2019ve been advised by the police\u2014and the private provider, of course, who has overseen the development of this programme that\u2019s allowed people to log on and register the return of their guns and then dealers, also, to be involved\u2014that only one dealer logged in and viewed information that they shouldn\u2019t have. That individual person has given assurances to the police that they have not shared that information subsequent to that. I have seen the claims by the Council of Licensed Firearms Owners. I would ask them to cooperate with the police, because, at this stage, we have no further information to demonstrate that it has gone as far as has been claimed. At that point yesterday, the Minister of Police was referring to statements that have been made by the Council of Licensed Firearms Owners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3d2d46e6b4a439d837e1ef11e108287\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e87f5a73c35e4a1eb5d0f0987bfbf5e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e87f5a73c35e4a1eb5d0f0987bfbf5e0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all of his policies and statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00225cb839bd3f7d4b7a9e3c657a44b5a981\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cb839bd3f7d4b7a9e3c657a44b5a981\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were made. I particularly stand by the careful management that has seen this Government have net debt below 20 percent in our first two years and run surpluses over that period of time. That now puts us in a position to take advantage of very low interest rates to correct the infrastructure deficits that were left behind by nine years of blue darkness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e18c1a39e8774e1995d070bf8cf4659d\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Regarding his statement at the weekend\u2019s Labour Party conference, \u201CAt the World Economic Forum in Davos this year I was so proud to hear our Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern tell the world how the Wellbeing Budget would work, and, more importantly, why it mattered.\u201D, was the world\u2019s response any different to what he is hearing from ordinary Kiwis who are wondering what happened to KiwiBuild?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281de2deee9404dbd9c69983a9901fdd3\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The response was very positive, as indeed it has been to the Wellbeing Budget right across New Zealand. For example, the fact that among business audiences around New Zealand, among NGOs, the idea that a Government might take mental health seriously and put it at the core of a Budget is something that has been very, very well received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e9a6ffdd3a94e3bade0c233ad9e8a27\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Has the feedback from Davos been any different than the feedback from Kiwi motorists wondering why 12 major road projects were cancelled or postponed by his Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb37f790631e4c32a29b83c1a9142a8f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I completely reject the premise of that member\u2019s question. It\u2019s all very well to stand in the middle of a field all alone, as the then National Party leader did, and make empty promises about ghost roads, but not actually fund them. That\u2019s not the same thing as actually funding roads, and I\u2019m very proud of our record in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022260375693b964af0bc4750033c463444\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Was the feedback from the crowd at Davos different to what he\u2019s hearing from Kiwis running small businesses as they struggle with rising costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b7b0cc176ed43ab97349a014114acec\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I can feel the members\u2019 jealousy about the lack of an invite to Davos, and I can say to him that I\u2019ll do my level best to get Klaus Schwab interested in the member from Epsom\u2014not for Epsom\u2014and get him an invite to the next one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb8cf64bd105441ba26b1c77073348b5\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: With export prices and our terms of trade at the highest level in decades, why does he always blame global headwinds for slower growth since he\u2019s been in Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022435e5e9eca094f9fa494680bbf5c802f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not just me who has a focus on the fact that New Zealand exists in a global economy. In fact, if we refer to the Mood of the Boardroom survey, he would have noted\u2014the member was there when that was released\u2014that seven out of the top 10 concerns for business leaders in New Zealand were to do with the international environment. We are in an environment of global headwinds; the New Zealand economy is well-positioned to deal with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d4e533cea69484289fe3ad8560485e6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell us as to whether the feedback from Davos was one of envy at the NZX in New Zealand right now being at an all-time record since it was first formed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e38f3b5b3353411f9b2dd31b3731133a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, that is the case that we have at the moment. I think it\u2019s a sign of confidence inside the economy, and I do believe that if members opposite looked beyond their negative mind-set, they\u2019d see signs all over the economy that spring has indeed been here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a486cfa2783f4ddb8aeb009e1fd93f93\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022e19df107ab4549168dfd7050ff6e5df2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e19df107ab4549168dfd7050ff6e5df2\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022a01a48c63c8b4bd6b5e09608e0aaa8ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a01a48c63c8b4bd6b5e09608e0aaa8ed\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Atu k\u014Drero pai\u2014more good news. On Thursday last week, ANZ released its latest business outlook survey, showing both that headline business confidence and own-activity indicators jumped by double digits in November to their highest levels this year. It\u2019s pleasing to see that the business community are feeling a little bit more optimistic as we head into the festive season. And while, of course, this remains a sentiment survey, I\u2019d like to note the turnaround in what is a favourite measure for those on the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bec3f48d3dc433bade419d51d902aba\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on consumer confidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f1b79803454407f874560993e334a70\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We also saw the release of the ANZ-Roy Morgan Consumer Confidence survey for November, showing consumer confidence lifted three points to 121, above its historical average. Encouragingly, confidence in the economic outlook overall lifted. Consumers\u2019 perceptions of the economy over the next year lifted seven points to a net 4 percent expecting conditions to improve, while the five-year outlook rose five points\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d8152f08b4b45618c7bcabe3e79182b\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: From below bottom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277a356d5d88c44e6b755303de0253448\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: From ridiculously bad to really bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc829c0cfa7448aebaa87eca43743f94\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they\u2019re loving this over there!\u2014to a net 15 percent expecting improvement. When viewed alongside the business outlook results, this survey paints a picture of increased confidence in, and a more positive outlook of, the economy going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d891893318f94b5893b5f3d8a30869fa\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing to further bolster confidence and certainty in the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022484e6212cfc34b40a7a895dfa396990d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On Saturday, I announced that the Government will bring forward major investments in New Zealand\u2019s infrastructure. This package will help address the infrastructure deficit that we inherited, boost growth and job opportunities, and create certainty in the construction industry going forward. I know many in the Chamber will be very keen to hear more details of this package, and I\u2019ll have more to say about the size of it and how it will support the economy at the Budget Policy Statement next week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f60a2a6faa304a3a8bbbdfeb63a1033d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2490afec75b413e8e00dbcedf516de1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2490afec75b413e8e00dbcedf516de1\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does he have confidence in New Zealand Police\u2019s ability to keep the information of firearm owners secure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022177fecdb3a324ed9983f7823c8b9a646\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022177fecdb3a324ed9983f7823c8b9a646\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbae0e1ea6aa450cb83b7e726c95a9f9\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned that a claim exists that 19 people\u2014not just firearms dealers\u2014have accessed private information about firearms owners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a37dc0cd3e34968896715d3f227109c\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: The evidence doesn\u2019t show that, and whoever makes that claim, I suggest they get in touch with the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224898c8e54586477ab456359d08ff4d2a\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that unauthorised access to information about the ownership of firearms could pose a risk to affected individuals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e25d96ec6b4b2b98fd4a1bf3ec484b\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding, according to the latest police update, is 34 people had their information accessed and all 34 of those people are going to be contacted by police today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277c2b433120647c3bb2712500dea6e14\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: What actions is he taking to ensure that firearms owners whose information may have been breached do not have that information used against them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ec3ac1551df4f27a30ebfd545c0b7dc\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: If that information is used against them, or in any way which is illegal, then the police will be investigating this. There is a full investigation under way at this point in time, but, as mentioned, the 34 individuals who had their full information breached will be contacted individually by the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfe51bffcea644bbbe0741d3f81471a3\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Will he apologise to the firearms owners who provided their information to the Government to assist in the buy-back scheme, and now face a potential breach of their privacy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9cfdb98e55f46e399a9d31f0975996e\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Let me read a statement from SAP, and I quote: \u201CA new security profile was incorrectly provisioned to a group of 66 dealer users due to human error by SAP. We unreservedly apologise to New Zealand Police and the citizens of New Zealand for this error.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224705ef4e324e4ecfb14b2208889954c6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022209326ee43ee4fb0ab5cd720df8b376c\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: I will not apologise, but SAP, who made this error, has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289af60fd697041b79252bdb368f45ddd\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Will he now agree with National, who called for the Government\u2019s firearms register proposal to be separated out from the Arms Legislation Bill so that more care can be taken with protecting the privacy of New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221653ded063be467ab3ff28f9fc4cfbf4\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: The National Party voted for the legislation that is seeing the removal of this, and it would be good, for once, to actually see them support this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222bbf5b610a574e7695b68da4186171eb\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa5d3e619feb455f9b1c1eac5879573f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa5d3e619feb455f9b1c1eac5879573f\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Employment: Does he agree with the Prime Minister that Mana in Mahi will provide \u201Cplaces for up to 4,000 young people\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00227381d1fa4264414bb8e88cae7eeaa9f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227381d1fa4264414bb8e88cae7eeaa9f6\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister of Employment):\u003C/span\u003E The Prime Minister said that at the launch of Mana in Mahi in August of 2018, and I absolutely agree with the context of her statement, which was that our aspiration is to have up to 4,000 places available. I also agree with the Minister of Finance, who said the Wellbeing Budget boosts Mana in Mahi, the programme that subsidises employers to take on apprentices, \u201Cextending the places available from 150 to almost 2,000, and progresses towards [our] goal of 4,000 places\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1c5850b265548f9a0cb236671507706\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: When did the Minister have the conversation with the Prime Minister to advise her that the 4,000 placements were too aspirational for him to deliver?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4fa20b267394cc4b355a91cfd794aee\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I speak with the Prime Minister all the time, and the 4,000 remains aspirational. I\u2019m sure after four years, when we\u2019re going to get to 2,000 people, we\u2019ll be looking at that number.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd99bc9d9edd4e0da93babb5c0bee1e5\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister reconcile the written question response stating that the Ministry of Social Development expects to deliver 2,000 placements by June 2023 with previous Government statements, including that from the Prime Minister, that up to 4,000 places will be available by the end of 2019? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cadaac1c29674bb9b3738a97e64becdf\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said earlier, the Prime Minister was talking about an aspiration. I support, and this Government supports, that aspiration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227126c8e544b949a5b49cf5c8723ae866\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: What is significant about the people participating in Mana in Mahi? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bef1dab450004a9896c66d53db7e8140\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mana in Mahi is opening up career pathways for all Kiwis, with a targeted focus on our young people. It is especially pleasing to see that many participants are moving from long periods on a benefit into skills development while they are working. In fact, 39 percent have already spent more than one year receiving a benefit before starting the programme. As Minister of Employment, I want to see labour markets that all our people can participate in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4277dc1b973412aa5ab51a7cb34ea4c\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: When will the number of Mana in Mahi placements exceed the number of young people that are joining the dole?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6be3d2415b24faca88ec7f7e6386d25\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: In time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eafa4c68b4a4a83acb121ffcfa8575e\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Of the 5,500 young people that have joined the dole since that Government has been in office, what percentage are enrolled in Mana in Mahi? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f56e1baf06f4e5c8b1df118ab9844b3\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of the percentage in terms of Mana in Mahi, we\u2019re at a point where we\u2019re at, in terms of the percentage\u2014we\u2019re at a percentage that is at a lower rate than the unemployment rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8dde131cd3844be9a383b6b926c0adf\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Sorry, Mr Speaker. Is Mana in Mahi just another one of the Government\u2019s broken promises letting down some of our most vulnerable young New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225927848c257c4a5aa0ae95f3eee2e755\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, not at all. In fact, Mana in Mahi has been a huge success. We have an 84 percent success rate in terms of young people not going back to the dole\u201484 percent. Now, I know the member has problems with numbers, but it\u2019s 84 percent not going back on an unemployment benefit. That is a huge success for Mana in Mahi and for this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a24c9ac63954ee68248279b91444b18\u0022\u003ERt Hon Jacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen recently on Mana in Mahi placements, and can he confirm stories such as those of the young person who was on an unemployment benefit for a number of years due to longstanding mental health issues and has now found employment that has given them hope and dignity, because of Mana in Mahi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d67668ce9de2497585a7ad174995654b\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. Thank you to the Prime Minister. We have these types of stories coming through all the time\u2014all the time\u2014and we care about these individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f40d56edee5a4894a9c4564c6fd4d428\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Making it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220067001e54af4a9d8e2195e3d3b53d51\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve been long-term beneficiaries\u2014long-term beneficiaries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258ae85bd2d89445b9ce4b793ccc7d6db\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member will resume his seat. The Hon Gerry Brownlee will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cc9485d69c24f23ab053cc971aed993\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It would help me to know what I\u2019m apologising for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f251162298764cb4b56981ed9ff4cd8f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is a member of considerable experience, and he would know that both myself and my predecessor and his predecessor repeatedly ruled out as disorderly and inappropriate the interjection that he just made. The Hon Willie Jackson\u2014I did interrupt; the member\u2019s had enough, has he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223def833151da4652aaefa6c7b94e8675\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of the stories, the stories are endless in terms of Mana in Mahi. We\u2019re really proud of this, and we\u2019re shocked that the National Party is continually condemning our young people. Eighty-four percent of these young people are not going back on unemployment benefits\u2014what part of that does the National Party not understand? Eighty-four percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b718ac42014a4d5485f5641aebbc0018\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0bfc1855b0341ce9902443e030c262a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0bfc1855b0341ce9902443e030c262a\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What recent reports has he seen about the impact of cost on access to primary healthcare?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022270afb98f8714504be6145d5fff427c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022270afb98f8714504be6145d5fff427c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E In a country like New Zealand, no one should have to put off going to the doctor when they\u2019re sick, and that\u2019s why I bring more good news. In December last year, the Government made it cheaper for around 600,000 New Zealanders to visit their GP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d39396002f5456faf7217bd74b01e28\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea3ccb3ec6434e8f8a882ac3bef41138\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: 600,000. The latest results of the New Zealand Health Survey suggest that that is already making a real difference. The survey found that last year, 57,000 fewer people put off visiting their GP due to cost compared to the previous year. That\u2019s an almost 10 percent reduction in just one year and takes the rate of unmet need for general practice services due to cost to the lowest level since the survey started reporting on this, in 2012.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228677b246e74941c49bacf4571b48574e\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What are the benefits of making primary care more affordable and accessible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b33df7fa88b54e5eb67f0966a60c862d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Access to primary care is a key entry point to preventative healthcare and early intervention. Put simply, the more people who seek help from their doctor early, the better. Not only does it mean that health issues can be picked up early, when it\u2019s often easier to treat them; it can also help people to avoid the need for costly hospital treatment. We know that cost is a barrier to GP care. That\u2019s why it is so encouraging to see this sharp decrease in the number of people who have put off going to a doctor, because now they can afford it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d44c81cf744424b9165ab87382b858e\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What other progress has been made in improving access to primary care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e660459361564300a40d19fc9d127970\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Health Survey also showed encouraging progress in two other areas where cost can be a barrier to care. Last year, 50,000 fewer adults reported that cost had prevented them from filling a prescription, and 33,000 fewer people avoided going to after-hours primary care because of cost. Obviously, there is more work to be done, but that is real progress from a Government committed to making healthcare affordable for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002269b078279f174408ac759c5585c6562c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Foreign Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0409754821546a0be75901bc890056f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0409754821546a0be75901bc890056f\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: What is the Government\u2019s official reaction to claims made by the Russian foreign ministry that New Zealand is responsible for the \u201Cmurder\u201D of seven children in Afghanistan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022301bde001f40474280463d91964d74d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022301bde001f40474280463d91964d74d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E First, I would like to thank Mr Brownlee for his question. The last time the Minister of Foreign Affairs received a question from the Opposition was on 20 February this year. Evidently, things have been going perfectly for the last 10 months. The firing ranges in Bamian have been used by a number of international force\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e4dea0e896a4a77b6c26a4a1f42055e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That was an interesting introduction to the question. These are important matters. Mr Peters often tells the world how important he is, so he\u2019s only ever asked important questions. I think his response\u2014or his opening to that question\u2014was somewhat unparliamentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238bf1b65578c4956af1b1ac9c0d251aa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Probably at about the same level as the point of order. The Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2014with the substance of the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7792386d4c3471587c6a68cd729221a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It was out of appreciation. I was beginning to feel neglected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b38c480ab834ce2836021c7c8a99f0d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I think the member\u2019s coming very close to misleading the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e3a3a3a963348088e016fe64327ee8e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The firing ranges in Bamian have been used by a number of international forces over multiple conflicts. This makes it extremely difficult to definitively link specific unexploded ordinance incidents with particular munitions or countries. The members should also note that it was the previous Government which failed to clear the ranges to an acceptable standard introduced in November 2013. Therefore, it\u2019s strange that they wish to raise this of all issues in the House, though we are more than willing, Mr Brownlee, to engage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e25f680672f448cb3a9da4207fea089\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Will he be calling in the Russian Ambassador to set the record straight, telling him the New Zealand Defence Force did clear to the acceptable standard at the time the particular range in question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acbd6fbb4fe54310a04df32f51281420\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of myself, the Russians have been aware of the New Zealand Defence Force statement issued on 5 November 2019, which makes it clear what the New Zealand position is. It\u2019s publicly available and we\u2019re not deviating from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b88bd1bdbc884f2e9cc5ab3d3ab0a48c\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does his inaction in engaging with the Russian Ambassador here in New Zealand in defence of the New Zealand Defence Force indicate a Government acceptance of the allegations made by the Russians?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af2cca97419e471b9e8cb435b0e8c834\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is famous for defending the Defence Force and provisioning them with the equipment they need for the first time in about 11 years. Here\u2019s the reality, though. Just because some apparatchik in the Russian foreign service makes a statement is no reason for us to react.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb6f6a419a4b4d32b55f66184ac4680b\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Has he been told by his ministry that the Russians left an estimated 30 million landmines in Afghanistan and that those landmines kill or maim some 2,000 Afghans every year; and, if so, why is he accepting the allegations made against New Zealand defence forces by the Russian Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca1b9dd25ca1480795e312fb65cbdb18\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: If any member of this Parliament had a grasp of history, they\u2019ll know it was decades ago that the Russians left and that they had nine years to tell the Russians about their failure, and never did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8212e068bb8491ca49ddd119308a875\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Will he be calling in the Russian Ambassador to explain to him that it is unacceptable to the New Zealand Government\u2014the allegations that have been made against the New Zealand Defence Force\u2014when they have left 30 million landmines that kill or maim 2,000 Afghans every year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1d47f6c155441edb0792f8b66f21f54\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is we will consider the member\u2019s request, and it may be that we\u2019ll have to overcome the neglect of nine years before us where they said nothing. But we\u2019re not going to react to an apparatchik in the foreign services of the Russia, which had, as that person\u2019s intent, an attack on the UK where they saw us as collateral damage. We don\u2019t react like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7dbf688299e447f9ff9ac9998ece0c9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Jacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the Government sought to set the public record straight by acknowledging that the New Zealand Defence Force, yes, met the standard at the time when they cleared the ranges and departed from Afghanistan; and had been undertaking work to go further and meet the additional new standards; and, at the same time, had cleared a significant\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fba0205d1a54f36bfe4a2cb7e15dda7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5ae65855c964135b39e8e9cc83daa56\u0022\u003ERt Hon Jacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014amount of unexploded munitions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9c607fa03f94a98ae4f09ad34b06b2d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The Prime Minister is now on to\u2014[Interruption] Order! The Prime Minister will resume her seat. [Interruption] No, no, and I\u2019ve ruled the question out. There are four legs to it. The Prime\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a78582d23fc246758497e6e112e32e3c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f729c83dd3f4f5e8b73b664f9e01004\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no; the member will resume his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228215c5733b1d4326a57feddf8dfa1b27\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With this exception, I\u2019m not challenging your ruling, but lives matter and people\u2019s lives have been lost, and the accusations that are being attempted\u2014to sheet them against our country. And I\u2019d like to defend our forces who, after all\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d00047517f8c4f089a0f207d57075e9d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume his seat. If the Minister or anyone in the Government wants to ask an in-order supplementary question in order to do that, that will be acceptable, but I do want to make it clear that the Prime Minister is not exempt from the rules for asking supplementary questions, even if she is relatively out of practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aff17132ab5a4e64920c138a85aa5efe\u0022\u003ERt Hon Jacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the Government set the public record straight on the matters that the member has raised? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d63a704cbc34fedb521a92481a38843\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The answers to all the Prime Minister\u2019s questions have been yes, yes, and yes. More than 200 tonnes worth of unexploded munitions have been cleared by our Defence Force, and a number of those will date back as far as the 1980s after a decades-long war. We support our defence forces going about their public duty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c8a6eba73614ed9a968539e62f72da0\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: No, you don\u2019t. You\u2019re a dreamer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022765d5139eb5948b7b837a1a271c6e54d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Mr Bennett, at least get your interjections in order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022712adebe1e50467da9744a532966b9d8\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister be calling in the Russian Ambassador to express to him the Government\u2019s dissatisfaction at the allegations laid against the New Zealand Defence Force, and to perhaps even ask for the Russian Government to consider putting a little bit of funding into the extreme costs now being met by the New Zealand taxpayer to clear up some of the 30 million landmines left in Afghanistan by the Russians?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccc4686ba8dc40fa83f531c66ef45e4f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have to. The Russian Ambassador\u2019s watching this programme as I speak and is hanging on every word. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225df6c4636cf149789012eba6ecc15d6b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Arts, Culture and Heritage\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022f578d5faaeab4f3288549feeb3a312a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f578d5faaeab4f3288549feeb3a312a6\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage: Does she stand by all her statements and actions around data breaches?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00221f80b3be7d7b4bec9b3ce1870106b18c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f80b3be7d7b4bec9b3ce1870106b18c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb479fa4944e4488a8abba50392ce028\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm written questions that show the data breach of a sensitive, unencrypted email titled \u201CUpcoming Ministry for Culture and Heritage papers for the next two months, beginning 19 August 2019\u201D was incorrectly sent by her ministry to a Victoria University email account?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226df6a58b286f466fb0fd18600a589117\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member has used the written question system to extract the details of that; it is absolutely his prerogative to use the House to do that also, but I would categorise the issue of information being sent to an incorrect email address as a result of an autocomplete error, which was detected immediately and has obviously engaged the ministry\u2019s usual response to privacy breaches, and it has disclosed the issue\u2014as the member is already aware. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c21a29b91fe44fc784fc15d11095406e\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Is it another data breach on her watch when as well as her answer to written question No. 35941, her ministry also sent me all the background information advising her how to answer the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bc0a5c7052f4964998e5b881bd5b340\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: If the member chooses to use the House\u2019s question time for inadvertent emails being sent\u2014as the member can well imagine, back in the day when Shane Ardern was in the House, I used to get a fair amount of information as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eb7a93c4f134ee09d5223f0f07c324a\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table background information to a written question No. 35941, that is not publicly available. The source is the Minister\u2019s own ministry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff6a04275d544d5c86e2bd117ffa8c51\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that being tabled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8d9ebbd68d9412e9d4579928679c5af\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I seek for this question now to cease: everyone has the information I am about to provide the House\u2014ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223977f5e85a044c1c94b827f84aaff415\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that the background information that her ministry incorrectly sent to me reveals that the very first time her office knew about a data breach, it was stated, \u201CYour office first became aware of this issue in the course of answering earlier written parliamentary questions from Dr Reti\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c16f6287ac964954955b28cc62aebcd1\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is asking whether or not the first time I was told that a ministry staff member autocompleted an email address and sent an email to the wrong person\u2014yes, the first time I knew about that was then. I expect the member wouldn\u2019t be surprised by that, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fdcec4822ef4b4d9bddbb15c6c6676b\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: How many data breaches have occurred in background information to written questions that have been incorrectly sent to me by her ministry? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291d596872d47485d9087367f15ed0ed7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Given you are the recipient of information, you would be better placed to answer that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fdac5638ade41b580397632c0c177e0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member would be anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225244ff564ca140b7b4c0d8b8941f34eb\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Civil Defence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u00225b768fbf278a44e8824d0cbced97514b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b768fbf278a44e8824d0cbced97514b\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Civil Defence: What recent announcements has he made about the national emergency management system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022052b07ea35364d50affec8353993171a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022052b07ea35364d50affec8353993171a\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Civil Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, I announced the establishment of the new National Emergency Management Agency (NEMA), from 1 December 2019, to replace the Ministry of Civil Defence and Emergency Management. Can I thank my predecessor, Minister Faafoi, for the hard work that he has done. I offer to the new agency the confidence of this House in the good work that NEMA does and will do into the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac5e3abbe0f74dc7aab2ccc4eb4b58a5\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: Why was there a need to establish the National Emergency Management Agency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb302e976474f46a62b6c0619b3c25f\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: NEMA will provide strong national leadership, putting wh\u0101nau and communities at the heart of our national emergency management system. This Government is committed to ensuring that all New Zealanders can rely on a system that supports them to reduce, get ready for, respond to, and recover from any emergency or disaster. Post significant events, a review was completed. The review found that while the system was fundamentally sound, it needs a number of improvements to meet today\u2019s challenges. I am pleased that this Government has been able to deliver on its commitment to establish the new agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f1eb56246e65445badef62659f2a8534\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c9768fb9481457383025f5a41d21cfb\u0022\u003EGun Buy-back Scheme\u2014Data Breach\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f659503617f34eb786203b6a2aa8d9cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f659503617f34eb786203b6a2aa8d9cd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received letters from Brett Hudson and David Seymour seeking to debate under Standing Order 389 a data breach in the gun buy-back registering. This is a particular case of recent occurrence. The operation of the firearms buy-back scheme is a matter for which there is ministerial responsibility. The test for whether a particular case requires the immediate attention of the House is a high one. The Police has reported that only one person had access to the data. In light of that, I am not convinced that this matter is urgent enough to warrant setting aside the business of the House today. The applications are therefore declined. If the data breach, however, turns out to be more widespread, I would reconsider the applications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002219fdcf87f0244dac8986a1ed62b381e4\u0022\u003EInternational Crimes and International Criminal Court Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022357911672a074af49c263136007af18e\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002218f5e721298a446a92d081b782b2c170\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218f5e721298a446a92d081b782b2c170\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the International Crimes and International Criminal Court Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221260ec7c8b2a4a598ff0275442d6a95d\u0022\u003EReferendums Framework Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002231da8ff2fd5c4a2a93a870aaf9952bb7\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002205ccf144d4dd4afea6965bc219748027\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205ccf144d4dd4afea6965bc219748027\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Referendums Framework Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very thankful for the efforts of the committee during the committee of the whole House stage of this bill. It was a very, very thorough examination of the legislation; a very closely fought debate at that time. I\u2019m very pleased with the state in which the legislation now is, as we come to this third reading stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s very important for our democracy that we have very clear rules on every aspect of our voting, not only for those parts of it that are about electing people to this House but also when it comes to referendums. We don\u2019t have any standing referendum legislation to provide a framework. It is probably an adventurous task to take on something that would be enduring over time. But, nevertheless, this Government has made commitments to hold referendums now on two very important topics; matters upon which the voting public of New Zealand ought to have a say because they represent a major shift in social policy and values and approach. So this bill provides a framework for the conduct of those referendums at the 2020 general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, I know it was the habit of some members in the committee of the whole House stage to want to engage in the substance and the merits of the particular issues that will be the subject of referendums next year. But that is not what this is about right now. This is about making sure that the bill that provides that framework\u2014under which the referendums will be held\u2014has integrity, is robust, and allows those referendums to take place under a set of rules that most voters will recognise because they are pretty comparable to the rules under which the voting next year will happen anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo this bill is about sustaining and maintaining those very important democratic values that underpin what happens when voters in New Zealand go to the polls. We will have two referendums now to engage with next year. Making sure that those referendums run smoothly means that we have to have a good set of laws in place, so we have taken the prudent step of making sure this bill sets out those rules and puts in place a single set of rules to govern the conduct of both referendums.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBoth will have slightly different origins. This House has already passed the End of Life Choice Act. That Act can come into force only upon a successful vote\u2014or a Yes vote\u2014at a referendum. So that will be one of the referendums that are conducted. And the other referendum, which relates to the legalisation and regulation of cannabis, comes through a different process. Both will be the subject of questions that are as simple as possible but both questions are slightly different, to recognise that in one case there is an enacted piece of legislation and in the other there is a draft piece of legislation which at least the parties in Government have said they will be bound by the result from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo the Referendums Framework Bill draws on the basic foundations of our electoral law that have been in place for a long time. It does not seek to be specific to any particular referendum. It is a generic bill, providing for those basic rules, and it provides those mechanics that we expect to be in place for the referendums for next year. The bill enables the Electoral Commission to conduct the referendums using the same voting places and the same voting staff as for the general election\u2014that would make sense\u2014and it provides for the counting of the referendum votes and the release of the results either with or following the release of the general election results. We know that, on election night, whatever the designated election day is, the priority will be getting out the results relating to the candidates and the parties. The results related to the referendums will almost certainly follow, and the bill provides for that as well. Also, the bill provides that the offence and penalty provisions in the Electoral Act apply to similar offences committed in relation to referendums.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOne of the big concerns that many submitters to the original bill had was the possibility that these two very sensitive, very important issues that the New Zealand electorate is being asked to express a collective view on would be subject to campaigns where some interests might have very deep pockets, others not so much. So, to the best extent possible, we want to level the playing field\u2014equalise the chances\u2014to make sure that no one has an undue advantage. The same rules that apply to advertising for candidates and parties in the general election will apply to the referendums. And, of course, we\u2019ve also foreshadowed, earlier today, a slight change in the advertising rules so that online advertising\u2014advertising on social media\u2014must now carry that attribution statement. New Zealand voters are entitled to know who it is who is seeking to influence and persuade them in the exercise of their vote. That will mean that we do have a set of rules and laws that have some integrity, some fairness, and mean that people can vote with a degree of confidence and, indeed, enter the public debate that these referendums will almost certainly engender with a sense of confidence that no one is getting an unfair advantage or no one is being unfairly shut out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWith all these things, the big challenge is often striking the balance between openness and transparency and freedom of expression but also making sure that those with the means don\u2019t seek to unfairly influence and distort the true expression of the electorate\u2019s opinion. So, with those matters in mind, the rules will require promoters of referendum advertisements to put their promoter statement on any advertisement and to register if they intend to spend more than $13,200 on referendum advertising during the regulated three-month period prior to the designated election day. As well as that, the registered promoters will also be required to submit a return of their expenses to the Electoral Commission if they spend over $100,000, and there will be an overall limit on the amount that can be spent of $330,000. Those are the rules that will apply when it comes to spending and to those who seek to influence the outcome of the referendums.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe bill also addresses some minor areas of difference from some rules that apply to the election, which reflect the nature of referendums. So, as I said, there\u2019ll be no preliminary count on election day itself; that will follow, but the results will be duly released so people will know what that result is. It\u2019s very important that we put in place very fair rules, very transparent rules so that the public debate, when conducted, is one conducted in a spirit of openness and fairness. That is what this bill seeks to achieve. I know that members opposite were concerned about some sort of procedural aspects of it. The reality is that this is a measure designed to deal with the exigency of referendums in the 2020 general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI think it is right, when those submitters who came to the select committee to say we ought to have a standing framework for referendums, particularly those that accompany a general election\u2014I agree with that, and I\u2019m very keen to see in due course a framework put in place that aligns with our electoral laws to allow that to happen. What has become apparent, the more I look at\u2014and I know officials look at\u2014our electoral law at the moment, is it is very clear that that is a law that is well overdue for an overhaul, and it may well be that in subsequent Parliaments that work will get under way, where we look at both the requirements for our electoral law generally and also for the conduct of referendums as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOn that note, I\u2019m very pleased with where this has ended up. This sets us up for a good, fair election for next year, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022504234d64e1d44ea99a3b028bb9457bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022504234d64e1d44ea99a3b028bb9457bb\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Members of the public who have followed this debate as this bill has been rushed through the House by the Government in recent weeks will know that the National Party is utterly and implacably opposed to it. There is very little that I can agree with in what we have just heard from the Minister of Justice, but he did at least acknowledge towards the end that the Opposition has some procedural concerns. Well, that speech was riddled with platitudes and euphemisms, and \u201Cprocedural concerns\u201D just doesn\u2019t underline in any way how strongly opposed we are to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EHe spoke of level playing fields. Well, I can assure him and members of the Government and their coalition partners that this bill does not deliver a level playing field in the very important aspects of our democracy that will be decided at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd64ee92d76249af842cabfe986e37f7\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t exaggerate!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201190bdabd324d21bc09e51459b4501a\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Hon Shane Jones says that I am exaggerating. I take it, therefore, that he is happy to go into an election having a referendum on marijuana. I\u2019m sure that he, as a member from Northland, is very keen to see marijuana liberally dispensed and in a very liberal regime in his area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad0b24c2571c42e4b39826540d646d4c\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a big call!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3247009b0ef4448b9ebd6b895db356d\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a big call, Mr Jones. In other words, the point I\u2019m making is that you as a member from Northland, you as an iwi representative in this Parliament, ought to be defending your people, ought to be speaking up and saying how concerned you are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225825df98c78b4efab6d2bf6852549aa6\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I understand this is a spirited debate, but I should not be misrepresented, and the member needs to come back to the content of the bill, which is not about how Shane Jones might cast his vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab1d8cc72db44bf7a9f8ece27959b9ab\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b66f701450954885bcb1e96e61e2091b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t need any help, thank you. First of all, I\u2019d make the point that I decide what\u2019s relevant or not. Secondly, I\u2019d refer you\u2014I don\u2019t have the exact Standing Order, but there\u2019s one that relates to interjections, which you do at your own risk. I listened very carefully to the retort. Any member who has the floor is entitled to respond to an interjection, and he did just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277c75712399d471da2aab25251a9ce73\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I appreciate that. The Minister of Justice also spoke of the fact that this is a Government that believes in openness and transparency. Well, this bill and the referendum\u2014or \u201Creferenda\u201D\u2014framework that it seeks to initiate is the exact opposite of openness and transparency, because any member of the public ought to be able to go through the process next year of listening to a public debate clearly understanding exactly what it is that they have to decide on two very important referenda questions, now, that we have been given, and to know that the Parliament played the important role that it has always played in the past in setting those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ESo what is it that is most obnoxious? It is the fact that in all of our constitutional history all previous referenda in this country have been decided by a mechanism which puts Parliament front and centre in the decision making, in designing the framework, in designing the wording of the referendum question\u2014but not this time, and not this Government. For the first time ever, we have a Government that has decided to use its executive power to take away the very important constitutional responsibilities of the Parliament to determine the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ESo, as a result, can any member of the Parliament tell me right now what the cannabis question will be? Silence. This time next year, we would assume, the general election and the referenda will both be over. We will know the results. We will probably be looking at the formation of a new Government and a new Parliament, and yet here we are, that close to that important democratic obligation that we all have as New Zealanders to make important decisions, and not one member of the parties opposite can even tell us what one of the most important questions will be. Well, as I said in my reply to the interjection a few moments ago, the questions that we will have to decide on the future regime for cannabis for recreational purposes in this country is of huge significance to every community the length and breadth of this country, but particularly in some of our more deprived areas where cannabis and other drugs are wreaking havoc and doing enormous damage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWe in the National Party believe that Parliament ought to have been given its constitutional right and responsibility to determine the questions. We ought to know exactly what those questions are now. We do know what the question will be on the euthanasia bill, although it is to my considerable regret that the question we are being asked will not reflect the nature of the issue\u2014but that\u2019s another matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EComing back to this one, it is simply wrong that this bill that we are being asked to consider at its third reading this afternoon transfers the decision on the topics and wording of referenda at next year\u2019s general election from Parliament to Cabinet. That has never happened before. Since 1853, every referendum that has ever been held in conjunction with a general election has been determined by the Parliament. I recall being on the other side of the House three or four years ago when we were dealing with the flag referendum question and the outrage that was being fired at us from this side of the House over process, and yet what we were doing then was having a very thorough debate in the Parliament so that the Parliament as a whole would determine the question. The utter hypocrisy of that situation was that National, Labour, and the Greens had all gone into the previous general election promising to hold that referendum and yet, for cynical reasons of their own, the Labour Party and the Green Party then completely reversed their particular position and decided to try to adopt some moral high ground\u2014I don\u2019t know how you can do that when you\u2019re going against your own party policy\u2014and then to say that somehow the flag referendum issue was a John Key vanity project. I think that\u2019s a huge blot on their record, and yet that was the way it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EIn this particular issue, we have additional hypocrisy, because the bill is time limited. We have a Government that\u2019s saying, \u201CWe\u2019ll make this work for ourselves, we\u2019ll use it for our own convenience, but in case there\u2019s a change of Government next year, we won\u2019t allow it to carry on. We\u2019ll revert to the way things have always been since 1853.\u201D Well, if they were right from 1853 to 2018 and they\u2019re right again from 2020 for the foreseeable future, they are right now. This Government\u2014it isn\u2019t too late\u2014should say \u201COK, we\u2019ll go back and we\u2019ll do the thing properly.\u201D, because the Parliament ought to be having a debate right now on what the wording of that cannabis question will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure that some of my colleagues who will follow me in this debate will explore that particular matter in greater detail, because, as I say, this is of huge significance to communities the length and breadth of this country. It isn\u2019t just something that\u2019s on the periphery. Drugs, and the recreational use of drugs, are doing enormous damage, and we ought as a Parliament to be able to frame a question that the Parliament can then take to the people and say, \u201CHere it is\u2014here are the issues you need to consider. Here\u2019s the public information campaign. Listen to the experts, consider all the evidence, and come to a considered decision.\u201D Well, this bill takes that important opportunity away from the public of New Zealand, as a result of which New Zealanders don\u2019t know now, and probably won\u2019t for some time, exactly what they\u2019re voting for, because even if they make a particular decision, they can\u2019t even be sure that it will be binding. It will then presumably go to a select committee after we have a referendum result, and then it could change. Well, that is an insult to the voters of New Zealand. That is an outrage, constitutionally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe National Party is simply arguing for a consistent and principled approach. We are arguing that our important democratic and constitutional traditions should be respected and upheld. It\u2019s very well-known that the wording of a question in a referendum can influence the outcome, the decision, and sometimes in a most unfair way. I mentioned a moment ago that I have great concerns about the euthanasia bill and referendum for that reason; I believe it is misnamed. We need to know, in the cannabis question, exactly what it is that New Zealanders are going to be asked to deal with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also got the fact that now we\u2019ve got two very controversial topics being held in conjunction with a general election, and that in itself may well distort the outcome, may well take away from New Zealanders the ability to focus on the important issues that the election should be decided upon, or, equally, may mean that they give inadequate attention to the questions that they need to determine via the two referenda that we are going to be deciding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister said that it will be a binding referendum for the public, and the justice Minister said we have a commitment that it is binding, yet neither of them seem to have any idea what a binding referendum actually is. So, again, we have an example of the senior members of this executive saying one thing to the public but actually doing something quite different. For the Minister of Justice to describe that as openness and transparency is absolute nonsense. He talked about a spirit of fairness. Well, there is no spirit of fairness in this particular measure. There certainly isn\u2019t in the way that they have rushed this bill through the House. So National remains utterly opposed to this. It\u2019s an outrage, constitutionally. The Government should not pass this bill, even at this late stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f72cdc6fb3ca4867b7acd7ba841ae5c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f72cdc6fb3ca4867b7acd7ba841ae5c7\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, there\u2019s certainly been a lot of hot air and debate\u2014heated, emotive debate\u2014about this piece of legislation. I did think maybe we might have a more reasoned debate in the third reading, but the claims of \u201Coutrageous\u201D and \u201Cunconstitutional\u201D continue around what is, essentially\u2014I think I called it a mechanical bill in previous readings; in this reading, I think I\u2019ll call it a scaffolding bill, to set up the process through which referendum or referendums can be conducted for the 2020 election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EFirstly, I just want to acknowledge the work of the Minister, Andrew Little, on this. This is a piece of scaffolding which, essentially, sets up the framework for the ability for New Zealanders to answer questions at the election through referendum, which doesn\u2019t happen very often, and it\u2019s very important that we get that process right. For the people listening out there wondering what all of the huff and puffery is about, that is essentially what this bill does, is set up a mechanism for those referendums to occur. I also just want to congratulate the Minister for the use of the term \u201Creferendums\u201D as opposed to \u201Creferenda\u201D as being the plural of referendum. I had to get that in there given that there\u2019s been a bit of to-ing and fro-ing on that particular matter during the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI also want to say to Tim Macindoe that it\u2019s actually perfectly legitimate to argue a case against the issues that sit around these referendums\u2014what we\u2019re actually asking the people of New Zealand to give us their opinion on. It\u2019s perfectly legitimate to put a point of view for or against and to be angry about a particular issue that\u2019s being put to referendum, but what defeats the purpose of this House is to argue against there being the best possible framework or scaffolding for those referendums to occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what I have been puzzling about right throughout the debate on this legislation: how the depth of passion that\u2019s being used against having a really good set of mechanisms in place for people to make sure that we\u2019re getting it right as to how those questions can be asked so that the public can be reassured that there will be minimal confusion for voters, for electoral staff, and for all the other stakeholders that participate in the referendum\u2014for example, the political parties and campaign groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIn terms of the claims around unconstitutionality, or the outrageous constitutional overreach, which has been the phrase used over and over again by the Opposition, I\u2019ll say this again\u2014and I said it in the first reading, as well\u2014there is no set procedure for setting referendum questions. So the claims that there is a constitutional overreach are incorrect\u2014patently incorrect. I\u2019m not going to use inflammatory language around that. The Minister has already signalled that he thinks there should be a standing framework for referendums. I absolutely agree, and I\u2019m sure that\u2019s a piece of work that he will put under way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EJust in closing, there\u2019s been exhaustive debate, so I\u2019m not going to relitigate all of that, but what this bill does is it sets up a process to establish a referendum. There are two mechanisms to do that: one is through Order in Council; the other requires an Act. Given that we\u2019re going to have two referendums, it looks as if both of those triggering mechanisms will be used. It sets up a process for the conduct of the referendums which aligns with the conduct of the general election around electoral officers, eligibility to vote, the form of the paper, the counting and declaring, the offences and the penalties, etc., etc., and it sets up a process around the advertising which regulates that advertising during the three-month period immediately prior. Again, this aligns with the general election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EFinally, it provides a mechanism to appeal, to challenge. Just as there is a mechanism in the Electoral Act to challenge the election of a constituency candidate or the allocation of party list seats by way of petition to the High Court, there is a mechanism in this bill to require a minimum of 200 electors to make a petition to the High Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis is fair. This is something that New Zealanders can be reassured is good, well-built scaffolding to provide a framework for the referendums for the 2020 election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00226c98f7274e6e47ef933429b4799dfe9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c98f7274e6e47ef933429b4799dfe9a\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Another contribution by me on the Referendums Framework Bill\u2014and, of course, my last, with this being the third and final reading that we\u2019re engaged in today\u2014and still I have a number of questions that I regard as, essentially, unanswered, notwithstanding that during the committee stage, we did have some interaction with the Minister in the chair on a number of points. But, as I say, I don\u2019t regard those as having been answered satisfactorily, and so I intend to run through some of those in my contribution today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe first: I\u2019ll just allow myself to pick up on the points made by the Hon Clare Curran in relation to what she describes as scaffolding. So the framework in the name of the bill, the Referendums Framework Bill, she characterised as a scaffolding, which is sort of interesting, considering that what actually is being put in place is surely much more substantive than that. Surely it\u2019s the entire building, except to say that the bits that aren\u2019t in the bill because they\u2019ve been delegated to the executive, conveniently for the Government, are such key matters as the question of each referendum\u2014or at least in one case, that\u2019s so\u2014and so, surely, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the right metaphor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut even if it were, the more fundamental question remains, as proposed by the Hon Tim Macindoe: why are we erecting a structure that is simply going to be taken down at the end of the next election period? Why are we setting up scaffolding, or foundations\u2014as I would probably rather describe it\u2014simply to be taken down so that someone else does not have the opportunity to use them? I suppose I could leave that almost as a rhetorical question. It\u2019s inconvenient to the current Government, no doubt, the thought that their successor Government from 2020 onwards\u2014it seems it\u2019s so increasingly likely that that will be the National Party and friends. So it just seems to me extraordinary that we can hear, with a straight face, from the Minister of Justice, first, and, now, from the Hon Clare Curran, that we will have this sort of structure that\u2019s been set up, only to be taken down\u2014this sort of scuttling the ship as they desert it, like so many rats swimming away, if you\u2019ll forgive me the metaphor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo the question that I have as well is: why is the question of each referendum not going to be the subject of a parliamentary debate? It\u2019s certainly the case in relation to the drug liberalisation effort\u2014and I deliberately don\u2019t say \u201Cdecriminalisation\u201D or \u201Clegalisation\u201D because at this stage, we don\u2019t know which it will be, and that is half the point. That\u2019s a large part of the contention that will be played out up and down the country in terms of those who are for or against the proposal, but, again, as a Parliament now, we don\u2019t have the opportunity to scrutinise the question itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EJust to illustrate, without going into too deep a lecture on semantics, it just seems to me interesting that the kind of opportunity that the Government, through Cabinet, will have to suggest a particular outcome in relation to the drug referendum would come in when you have things like undefined terms. So it might be, for example, that they\u2019re planning to ask about the use of recreational drugs for adult New Zealanders, but that might mean different things to different people; in fact, it almost certainly would, whether we\u2019re talking about those who are over 16 or over 18, being different ages of majority in other legal contexts, rather than perhaps those who are 25 years old or older, with a certain amount of further brain development happening between those years, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWe might also have in the referendum question in relation to liberalising the drug regime perhaps an emphasis on harm minimisation. That\u2019s not necessarily a bad thing in itself, except to the extent that it could suggest to those ticking the box on the ballot paper that it will simply be a matter of minimising harm to allow the greater use of whatever substances we\u2019re talking about, without highlighting the inherent dangers still in some of them. In any case, I don\u2019t intend to go into the substance of that particular debate but just simply to highlight there are a couple of different ways\u2014actually, more too, but I\u2019ll leave it there\u2014that a question of a referendum can suggest the outcome or make one outcome more likely than another, and that is power that is being delegated by the Parliament, through this bill, to the executive\u2014Cabinet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOn a related note and, again, as we\u2019ve discussed extensively on this side of the House, that power will be exercised behind closed doors. Cabinet decision-making is behind closed doors, naturally so. The doctrine of collective responsibility is such that they will all be expected, those Ministers, to toe the party line, so to speak, once the decision is made. That\u2019s fair enough, as far as it goes. But that opacity of decision making is such that the people of New Zealand, through its Opposition\u2014in fact, through the whole Parliament\u2014won\u2019t have the ability to engage with the crucial question of what the question will be. That\u2019s a shame, to say the very least, in constitutional terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAnother outstanding question actually arose more recently in relation to some discussions that have been had with the Minister and his officials\u2014I think at select committee, but please don\u2019t quote me on that, if I\u2019m incorrect about where I\u2019ve read or heard that particular comment. The question was about how the unit to be set up in the Ministry of Justice is to play its role in relation to the referendum\u2014or \u201Creferenda\u201D or \u201Creferendums\u201D, for my friend across the House. So we don\u2019t have a lot of clarity in terms of the legislation, and we don\u2019t have any clarity on an official level either, in terms of PRs being set out or other statements in the public domain. So that\u2019s not really clear at all, and yet this is crucially connected with the subject that we are discussing here today, or at least that we should be discussing\u2014that is to say, what the subject of the referenda themselves will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAn interesting question arises from that, then, which is to say that the next Parliament would be very strongly able to argue that it shouldn\u2019t be bound by the actions of this one. That\u2019s a generally accepted principle, that one Parliament can\u2019t bind another. It would be anti-democratic to privilege one set of lawmakers over another and, effectively, deny the ability of the people to have ongoing exercise of their democratic will, but we\u2019ve got a situation here, via this bill, where that\u2019s actually entirely possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EActually, worse still than one Parliament binding another, what we\u2019ve got is a situation where the current executive could, effectively, bind the next Parliament to the extent that they can set the rules\u2014or some of the rules of the game, to be fair. In particular, again, I emphasise the referendum question. The current Government can set that question. It will be expected, as a matter of moral, political, and possibly legal weight, that the next Parliament will enact the decision of the referendum, and yet this Parliament will not have had the opportunity to thrash it out in the way that we do in parliamentary debates, ugly as it is sometimes, and certainly through the creature of Parliament that is select committees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, again, it\u2019s a lack of transparency in relation to matters that aren\u2019t merely academic that will, indeed, influence the way of life in New Zealand. However one feels about those respective questions, I don\u2019t think we can deny that they\u2019re serious and weighty matters. So that\u2019s a real challenge in terms of the next Parliament arriving, and being expected\u2014and I\u2019m sure the people of New Zealand will expect the next Parliament to enact the will of the people at the referendum. But if, as I say, the foundations have not been built solidly, if the house, or even the Hon Clare Curran\u2019s scaffolding, is not made on firm ground, then we can expect it to be washed away by the tide of public opinion, or at least some sort of great constitutional forces. There\u2019s an extended metaphor there which I\u2019m reaching for and cannot attain at this stage, so I\u2019ll move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db6cf1399b164ee7a9f6fbbbcd596567\u0022\u003EHon Kris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the last eight minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277e85b984cec440a8c755fb70f0adeb2\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the last eight minutes. Thanks very much. So I\u2019ll just finish with one point that seems to me particularly important, which is really in relation to the particular aspects of the drug liberalisation legislation, or maybe the legalisation legislation\u2014it is a bit of a tongue twister, that. It\u2019s particularly, in the context of this bill, not actually providing us that kind of clarity or certainty. It\u2019s simply this. I posed the question to members of the Government: when will we see the terms upon which that question will be asked of the New Zealand people and answered by them? There\u2019s nothing in this bill that explains for a moment or comes close to explaining what we can expect in that regard, and yet we should be able to know the answer to that question. We should have the opportunity for an open and transparent conversation. I know that the phrase \u201Copen and transparent\u201D tends to be somewhat of a punchline in political circles these days, but that\u2019s not my fault.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ENevertheless, the lack of openness and transparency about a crucial question that will affect the fabric of the nation\u2014to use the high-flown phrase that New Zealand First are fond of in relation to referenda. That much we don\u2019t have yet. I\u2019m asking earnestly when members of the Government will actually tell us, because until such time as they are open and transparent about that, then they should not expect any support whatsoever in relation to the shaky foundations, the shonky foundations, which they\u2019re proposing to put in place via this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022030f1d30798d42c89e0a4b6cf7e85cf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022030f1d30798d42c89e0a4b6cf7e85cf4\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E I follow the member Mr Penk, who was searching for a suitable analogy or symbol when he talked about fragile foundations. As a man who has very strong views, and I respect him for his strong views, he should look no further than the Book of Corinthians, where the foundation is laid by the wise builder and others will follow on. So in that context, I suggest, sir, that you stop catastrophising what this piece of legislation actually is endeavouring to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI want all of the House members and the public to know that this is a piece of legislation that shows that our constitution is dynamic. We don\u2019t take these artificially inflated, static views about how matters of significance to the New Zealand voters should be phrased or should be endorsed. Indeed, the parliamentary committee that will enjoy oversight over the wording to be included in a referendum is actually chaired by a member of the National Party. Now, when you hear these shrill denunciations, quite unintelligible, you would think that they are looking at a completely different piece of legislation. Unfortunately, they are studying it from the wrong end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis piece of legislation is incredibly important because it enables the two referenda to be held at the next general election. The member from Hamilton made a very good point that one of those questions is an incredibly vexing issue for, especially, those of us from our M\u0101ori communities, as to what level of liberalisation should those who want to enjoy and grow cannabis enjoy. I will cast my vote, and that level of liberalisation will not change one inch, but that\u2019s my right as a M\u0101ori rangatira in Tai Tokerau to vote how I like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EMy obligation as a parliamentarian is to ensure that this bill passes to give confidence that the structure to enable the referendum to be held at the next election is robust. We\u2019ve already referred to the question that will be held in terms of the euthanasia debate. That also is a vote that each of us will be entitled to cast. We will bring both our family histories, our social and medical histories, and, indeed, the values of our upbringing to that question. But to suggest that this bill is somehow undermining the constitution\u2014the notion that the person trying to defend the constitution through this bill is Nick Smith is further evidence why this bill is very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere, obviously, are some rules around advertising. I do have some anxieties, because these are such polarising questions that we are going to require a robust set of rules around the advertising pertaining to the referenda. They need to have the same level of strength that pertains to election advertising. It could be said that there could be a diversion of effort, and people will not be focused on the brag list\u2014which is considerable out in the provinces as a consequence of my advocacy\u2014and it might be eclipsed by questions around the referendum decisions. But the House has had ample opportunity to debate. The House is empowering the Electoral Commission to conduct referenda using the same voting places and electoral staff as for the election. None of that is revolutionary. None of that is radical. It will provide for the counting to referenda votes, the release of those results following the release of general election results. This is something that the vast majority of New Zealanders are incredibly familiar with and, indeed, will suffer no confusion about as a consequence of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI do think that the notion that Cabinet will conspire and Cabinet will conceive some dastardly mixture of words designed to undermine people\u2019s ability to cast a vote is driven by not only exaggeration but a very poor understanding on the other side of the House as to what we are actually doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, people who do break the rules, they will suffer the negative results in terms of penalty provisions. These are not provisions that are vastly different from how you conduct a three-yearly election. The conduct of both the referenda at the next election and the rules in terms of running a transparent and robust election are going to be virtually indistinguishable. That\u2019s the virtue of openly debating this piece of legislation. I repeat again: once an Order in Council is eventually agreed upon, such matters go to a specific parliamentary select committee. There is every opportunity in that select committee to debate the worth, the lucidity or otherwise\u2014and, indeed, there\u2019s the ability for members of the House to come back and put it as an issue for the House to debate. What could be more transparent than that tried and true process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s likely to be quite a lot of money tossed around, if we\u2019re not careful, in terms of advertising in respect of the referendum. Now, it\u2019s a highly emotional topic, as we\u2019ve seen in the House, in so far as the right to choose to die. There\u2019s also a host of people that will be promoting, I dare say, the vices and virtues of the question of recreational cannabis. Providing that the framework is understood, providing the limits of expenditure are understood\u2014and I\u2019m not going to weigh into another debate about the source of funding or anything like that\u2014those are areas that thinking members of the public expect us to deliver upon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe notion that, somehow, because the House is not conceding, or writing, or holding the pen of the actual question, overlooks the fact that we are a country with a Westminster democracy that does defer\u2014after an election, many of those responsibilities are delegated through the House to the people who hold enough votes to exercise power. Now, that\u2019s not a boast of who came out on top in terms of the electoral fortunes, that\u2019s just to remind everyone that there really is nothing radical being promoted here, as Mr Little has already said. I am disappointed that Mr Little did suffer quite a lot of dramas in terms of the language from Mr Nick Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, I want to get on to a topic that Mr Nick Smith does know a lot about, and that\u2019s the High Court. The Electoral Act will provide for electors to challenge, in terms of conduct and approach, the result of a referendum. For one of the two referenda, I suspect that could be an issue, which is why we\u2019re doing the right thing now. We are ensuring that a structure, a piece of legislation, is in place, because there will\u2014in a number of our constituencies, in a number of particular electorates\u2014be a huge amount of interest in terms of either topic. The level of further liberalisation we should agree to as a nation in respect of the growing recreational utilisation of marijuana. And just to remind the House that in order to gain access to that High Court remedy, in so far as the High Court believes that it ought to be embroiled in such questions, 200 electors are required to make a petition to the court. This is all outlined clearly, after enormous debate in the House, as an important safeguard. The High Court represents an incredibly important institution, with its inherent powers in our constitutional make-up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, any suggestion that we are undermining either the role of the High Court or the role of the parliamentary select committee which deals with Orders in Council\u2014essentially subsidiary levels of legislation called regulatory interventions\u2014is an exaggeration, and most Kiwis realise this is an important bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00225f979530f1844f1186595dcb6180e13a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f979530f1844f1186595dcb6180e13a\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, Madam Speaker. I was engrossed in the breaking news on Twitter about the wording of the Government\u2019s cannabis legislation bill. We\u2019ve got the wording out, and I want to come back to the wording and why it matters, in my contribution on the bill, because, actually, the reason we\u2019re having this bill is for that referendum which will be held at the 2020 election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBut I want to make three points in my contribution. We\u2019re opposing this bill. The first is about the process. We think the process leading up to this bill was objectionable. We think it was wrong. We think it actually does make a difference and it is an important bill that\u2019s constitutionally significant. It\u2019s not constitutionally significant in the same way the Constitution Act 1986 was or the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 was but it is constitutionally significant, and we think the Government should have consulted with the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESadly, as we\u2019re about to discover later on in the House today, this Government is making a habit, when it comes to electoral law, of not properly consulting with the Opposition. I, for one, think that is regrettable. I think it is bad process. Of course, our constitution depends on conventions, and it depends on\u2014to some extent\u2014Governments doing the right thing when it comes to electoral law. That has not been the case when it comes to this bill. I think it actually undermines the argument that the Hon Shane Jones just advanced about there being no Cabinet conspiracy. Well, that might be true for a National-led Government Cabinet, but, frankly, the behaviour of this Cabinet when it comes to electoral law puts a lie to the claim that there would be no conspiracy. And I think members of the Opposition would be rightly fearful of a Cabinet arrogating to itself the power to set referendum questions like we see with this bill. So that\u2019s the first point: we think the process has been wrong from the start. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second point is we think this bill is wrong in principle, and we think that Parliament should determine referendum questions, not Cabinet. That\u2019s been the case since 1853; every previous referendum question has been set by the Parliament. Why does that matter? I want to advance three particular reasons to why we believe that. The first is that the questions matter, and Chris Penk made quite a lot in his speech about that. The questions that are asked make a difference, and we think that should be within the provenance of the Parliament because, ultimately, it will be the Parliament delegating to the people whether or not a particular thing happens. We, therefore, think it should be the Parliament that decides on the question put to the people. We think that\u2019s a simple concept, we think it\u2019s the right concept, and we think that the way in which the question is worded is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ELabour members previously have thought that to be the case as well. In the last Parliament, I sat on the Justice and Electoral Committee, as it then was, as we considered the flag referendum bill, or the New Zealand Flags\u2014plural\u2014Referendum Bill. People have forgotten about that. It was only three years ago, but there were thousands of submissions. The Labour Party ran a petition website and there were 50,000 submissions through it, or some very high number. It was sat at committee for a long time, and it was highly controversial. Actually, it should have been quite a simple matter, which was the question of putting to the people the various options for the flag, or the possible new flag, and then the second question: do you support the final option up against the current flag? But there was all sorts of heat and light.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe key point I remember from that whole process\u2014and it was actually the current Speaker who was particularly exercised about this, Madam Deputy Speaker. The current Speaker was particularly exercised about the question, because he said, \u201CThe question matters and we\u2019ve got to get the question right.\u201D His particular argument at the time was that we should ask, \u201CDo you want to change the flag?\u201D before we asked what to change it to. We had this long back and forth about whether or not you could vote, whether or not that was legitimate, because if you asked, \u201CDo you want the flag to change?\u201D, you might have an answer, yes or no, but, of course, a lot of people\u2019s answer would depend on, \u201CWell, it depends what it is. I don\u2019t know if I\u2019m in favour of changing the flag because I want to know what the change is.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn the end, the Cabinet and then the Parliament decided that we would have a two-stage process where everyone would vote on the various options. We had the Lockwood versions, the two different Lockwood versions, and then everyone got upset about Red Peak. It\u2019s amazing, looking back at that time in our history when everyone became a vexillologist\u2014which is a flag expert\u2014and we were told by Gareth Morgan and all the self-proclaimed vexillologists out there that the way the Kyle Lockwood flag had been designed was inappropriate and you couldn\u2019t have a particular line in one way and it was appalling and there\u2019d be international outrage and condemnation, so we had to quickly change the law through urgency to put Red Peak into it. I mean, it was a hilarious process in some ways. But the point is, we had a long debate about the question and, actually, Labour members were exercised about the question and they were right, so that\u2019s the first point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second point is we don\u2019t think it\u2019s right that Cabinet should be able to set the number of referendums, because under this bill\u2014which actually does expire at the 2020 election, but in principle it\u2019s wrong, because Cabinet can set the number and, of course, that could potentially affect what happens at the general election. So that\u2019s the second point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe third point is that the legitimacy of the result depends on public buy-in, and we think that having the bill go through the Parliament with the question debated through the Parliament is important. Now, Shane Jones made some good points in response to this, and I want to deal with some of those things. He said, \u201CWell, look, the Cabinet is not going to conspire. You\u2019re tilting at windmills, you\u2019re seeing things that aren\u2019t there.\u201D Well, you might well say that, but, actually, frankly, we don\u2019t have a lot of faith in the current Cabinet. We\u2019d have a lot more faith in the Cabinet of a National-led Cabinet. But that\u2019s the point, isn\u2019t it, that political parties have faith in their own Cabinets? So that is a trite way of saying political parties trust their own people. Well, of course, but that\u2019s the point, that you put it to the Parliament and at least the Parliament can have a say through it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second point that he said is that, well, we\u2019ve got the Regulations Review Committee, that there\u2019ll be\u2014and he went into quite some detail to say that there\u2019d be an extensive process. The Cabinet would set something through Order in Council and then the question would end up at the Regulations Review Committee and there\u2019d be submissions and people would come in and have their say and the Regulations Review Committee would investigate it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWell, that seems to me to be an implicit admission that the committee process is important. If the rebuttal to \u201CCabinet can set the question and there\u2019s no select committee scrutiny\u201D is, \u201COh no, but there\u2019s the Regulations Review Committee and they can investigate it and have all these submissions and really get into the details\u201D, well, that\u2019s an argument for having a select committee process. That\u2019s not an argument against\u2014that\u2019s not an argument of a Cabinet setting it, it\u2019s an argument for the Parliament setting it, so he\u2019s actually undermined his own point. And, actually, we would just make the point that the Regulations Review Committee is not appropriate for that; it\u2019s not a body that has ever considered the wording of referendum questions. Yes, it\u2019s true, it considers Orders in Council, a little bit like a court, and\u2014people like to mock the Regulations Review Committee, but having spent three years on that under the wise chairmanship of the Hon David Cunliffe, I\u2019ve come to appreciate the [Interruption]\u2014Mr Jones laughs, but he\u2019s actually quite a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022836166961a5f4a5a82a5b10b6ffd0715\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Easy, easy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224ea4f3ddfa84f3f9321b790fbed2cfb\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it was a good committee because we had the Hon David Cunliffe and we had the Hon David Parker. Anyway, I digress. I have a lot of time for the committee and it does a lot of good work but it is not the constitutionally appropriate body to consider referendum questions. It\u2019s just not. If you really wanted a committee to get into the details, you should send it to a committee, which is the point we\u2019ve made from the start. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe third point, in closing, is this is particularly inappropriate for the cannabis referendum. The real way to do these referendums is for them to be self-executing, in the same way the End of Life Choice Act is. So Parliament has extensively considered that bill; people have their own views about the rightness or wrongness of it. It\u2019s now in law. It self-executes; in other words, it comes into effect upon a positive vote plus one of the people at the referendum, and if it doesn\u2019t, it lapses. That\u2019s the right way to do it. That\u2019s what the Government should be doing on the cannabis referendum, but they\u2019re not doing that. Instead, we\u2019ve got this draft bill, the Cannabis Legalisation and Control Bill, which has literally, just in the last 10 minutes, been outlined at a press conference. That will be put to the people and the question will be: do you support it or not? Well, that\u2019s a good question. The problem is the 2020 election may result in a completely changed Parliament which will have to, presumably, if it\u2019s a positive vote, deal with this bill. And, actually, parties may campaign on amending parts of it. Parties may campaign on not implementing it altogether.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo the right way to do referenda is to pass the whole thing through into an Act, have it as self-executing, and have it coming into effect\u2014not this halfway house, Mickey Mouse solution which is what we have with this bill, and that\u2019s why we oppose it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u0022320d1891576c489f98e2dd9de5b17cbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022320d1891576c489f98e2dd9de5b17cbd\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise in support of this bill, and as the previous speaker who\u2019s just resumed his seat, Chris Bishop, has pointed out, we now do have a question for the referendum. It is an exciting day in lots of ways for electoral reform in this House, as the next bill that we\u2019ll be hearing is, of course, on foreign donations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo it is nice to see this House dealing with some of these electoral and democracy issues, although I think the public, were they to listen to the speeches of the Opposition this afternoon or read over them as the different readings of this bill came through, would be really confused to find that this bill is actually about the mechanics of the way referendums come through to the New Zealand public. There are different ways that that can happen, and, you know, people keep talking about the constitutional norms and constitutional law. I\u2019ve studied constitutional law, I\u2019ve practised constitutional law, and there isn\u2019t a constitutional breach here. There are different ways for referendums to come through, which is why this bill is here. It\u2019s about the mechanics; it\u2019s not about one referendum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EIt is really interesting to hear the previous speaker keep talking about the question. The Minister has said repeatedly in this House that this is about any referendums that come through the 2020 election, and since the first reading of this bill we\u2019ve actually had one more added. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EHow absurd would it have been if this bill had a question in it and we couldn\u2019t add more to it. What a blunt tool legislation would be for that kind of thing. Then we keep hearing\u2014we do keep hearing\u2014about this lack of ability for the Opposition to feed into the cannabis referendum question and framework and substance, and that they\u2019ve had no opportunity. Well, they have, actually, and they\u2019ve refused to engage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EHow much disdain would you have to have for this House and for our democracy to be invited to join a cross-party group to actually hash out these questions, to actually talk about what this referendum may look like, and to refuse\u2014to repeatedly refuse. So it is a lie to say that there\u2019s been no attempt to engage with the Opposition, because we know, and there\u2019s been a lengthy record of this, that every other party in this House is engaged in the cross-party group and trying to look at what the substance of that referendum will look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c7235f64edb4507a061608541c95c4e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That accusation cannot be made in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220234cf41e5b045d5ab0e16e5b8b4cea9\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN\u003C/span\u003E: So that has happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e2d8e09d28b4dfcb0ca84ba1f6cbe89\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just remind the member that that is an unparliamentary statement in this House. She might like to rephrase it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f242616ac29f4e8b8ce4bd978297c7e1\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll move on, Madam Speaker, if that\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b16952e80e494503a7d63b67b35f2475\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it will be in your Hansard. You might just want to correct the word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b88446ee235245c99d5b6a349d97fc7c\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I see. So the Opposition has had an opportunity, and it is inaccurate were the public to assume that there has been no opportunity for all parties in this House to engage with this subject matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe next thing is that there will be an opportunity for this bill to go to a parliamentary oversight committee, and that committee is chaired by a National Party member. That\u2019s the Regulations Review Committee. So the public will be engaged at that level. The public will come forward and make submissions, and members on that committee will also be able to engage at that level. So there\u2019s the other opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EI think members of the public will be surprised to know that this bill is actually a mechanical bill if they\u2019ve actually heard the speeches in this House and thought that it was solely focused on the cannabis referendum at that point, and, in fact, that they do have an opportunity to submit. Of course, then, once the question goes out to the public, it becomes a broader democracy question and it becomes about the public\u2019s choice. So we\u2019re not, in fact, imposing anything on the public; it is all about allowing the public to decide\u2014in this case, in the case of the cannabis referendum\u2014whether or not it is time to adopt a new approach to the way that we deal with drugs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe war on drugs has failed, so to speak, and we\u2019re going to put it, finally, to the New Zealand public to say whether or not we would like a health-focused approach, an approach that actually treats addiction as a thing that we can come together on and we can treat, and move away from the approach of political parties where the tough-on-crime rhetoric has brought us down a path we are now so far down that our prison system is filled, our healthcare system is not equipped to deal with what we might see as an addiction problem, and people are being stigmatised to a point where they can\u2019t seek help. So that\u2019s something to celebrate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EBut the other thing to celebrate in this bill and today in the House under other pieces of legislation is that this deals with the issue of unfair interference with our democracy. This bill does set limits on the amounts of donations that can be made in terms of the referendums that the bill may apply to. We are proud as the Green Party to have pushed hard to implement actual spending limits, because we do think that big money should come out of our democracy, that we shouldn\u2019t have interference, and that we shouldn\u2019t have our democracy up for sale, effectively, on the open market. So this bill does a little bit of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EIt also requires that advertisers be registered, or promoters be registered. We know that globally this has been a problem. The anonymity of those who, with bigger wallets than the ordinary voter\u2014when they do take a stake in democracy, it has been a problem. We do think that it\u2019s important for New Zealand\u2019s democracy that there is a sense of transparency and implementation of that transparency in law, and this bill takes us closer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EI do have, obviously, a wish that eventually we will see limits placed on all political donations and that transparency mechanisms are implemented in relation to all political donations, and that\u2019s why I do have a strengthening democracy bill in the House. So this bill moves us closer to that, to a Green Party position on both fairness and openness of our democracy, and today we can celebrate that together. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00223280f8ac9184446eb923efffdae1e21a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223280f8ac9184446eb923efffdae1e21a\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. National opposes the Referendums Framework Bill at its third reading, as it did at all stages, as I understand, not sitting on that committee. National has some very well-founded, in my view, concerns around this bill. Speakers on the Opposition side have made a number of points in this third reading, as they have done in prior readings, and I\u2019m not going to restate those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI do wish to make a couple of points and really just refer to something said by the member who has just resumed her seat, Golriz Ghahraman, where the member said it\u2019s an exciting day for electoral reform in New Zealand. I could not disagree more, because electoral reform has, of custom, going right back through the years since 1853\u2014since that time, it has been the custom of this Parliament that any matters to go to referenda or referendum would be considered by the Parliament, and that has been the parliamentary custom. A lot of the processes around this Parliament are built on custom, and there has been a very good reason for that. So I disagree with the member who says it\u2019s an exciting day for electoral reform in New Zealand, because instead of that, it is another example of this current coalition Government turning its back, at its convenience, on what has been a proud history in the democracy of New Zealand and the New Zealand Parliament in determining the matters that go to a referendum question\u2014or referenda, in this case\u2014proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ETo just a final point in the member\u2019s quote\u2014sure, electoral reform in New Zealand, which she finds exciting, only lasts until we have held the 2020 election, and then what? Is it still exciting? Well, no, of course it isn\u2019t, because the bill\u2014soon to become, regrettably, law\u2014has only a life leading up to the 2020 election. Even from that point, I think it could be argued that this piece of legislation serves not Parliament but perhaps it serves the interests of the current Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ETo take the referendum question wording from Parliament and place it to be a decision by Order in Council and not by Parliament is a substantial change, and it is one where the general public, in the hurried passage of this bill\u2014I doubt whether they have had the opportunity to really have a say on such an important question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ETo the aspect of citing the Regulations Review Committee as the place for this bill after its third reading to be considered\u2014it is not the appropriate standing committee of Parliament. The appropriate standing committee of Parliament is the Justice Committee. Now, why it isn\u2019t going there, I\u2019m sure that question was asked in the committee stage, and my understanding is that at the committee stage, that question was not answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESo I just want to refer to some words the Ministry of Justice submitted to the Government in the preparation and passage of this bill where they said, \u201CThe decision on whether to put a matter to a referendum is primarily a political matter. There are very few statutory requirements [and] almost no restrictions on what [measures] are put to [a] referendum or how such decisions are made. The appropriate level of parliamentary oversight over such decisions and the appropriate extent of public and/or parliamentary input into the wording of a referendum question are matters of political judgment.\u201D And I would say that this current coalition Government have exercised that political judgment, and I think Parliament and the people of New Zealand are not well served by this approach. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022380b5968a36a4e96a459099390bfd95b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022380b5968a36a4e96a459099390bfd95b\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E During recent debates in this House I\u2019ve heard members opposite with some fear and trepidation in their faces and voices saying, \u201CWe should be slow followers. We shouldn\u2019t be fast movers.\u201D On this side of the House, a progressive Government, we are fast movers. We are making sure that this Government, that this country, is where it needs to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E And one needs no more evidence of the fear, of how slow movers they are\u2014every speaker over there has mentioned 1853 as being the pivot point we should be looking at when we look at this bill. In 1853, just a reminder, the New Zealand Constitution Act\u2014it was actually 1852\u2014passed. To vote, you had to be male. You had to be a British citizen. You had to be 21 years old. You had to own a certain value of land and not be serving a criminal sentence. While, by my reckoning, there were about 150 M\u0101ori in New Zealand at the time, they didn\u2019t get to vote. There were at least half the people of New Zealand who were women. They didn\u2019t get to vote. So, \u201CLet\u2019s go back to a law. Let\u2019s go back to a point in time in 1853 or 1852 when the bill was passed, and let\u2019s lock ourselves into that.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EOne has only to hear the debate to see how polarised this referendum, this next election, is going to be, because the speakers who have spoken today, particularly on the other side of the House, have shown their colours and their disappointment at the way in which this Referendums Framework Bill is being introduced and is going to be passed. It is because they are afraid of the result. Mr Macindoe made it quite clear where he stands on both of the referenda issues that are going to be addressed in the next election. So therefore, if you have a polarised position, if you know exactly what the answer you want is, you will be fearful of any process which may deliver an answer that you don\u2019t want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EI and those on this side of the House have faith in our democratic system. We on this side of the House are very happy that a well-informed New Zealand public\u2014well-informed and, more importantly, those who are prepared to look at the arguments for and against\u2014will actually make the right decision. And this Referendums Framework Bill simply ensures that the framework under which these two referenda are going to be voted on, how they\u2019re going to be introduced, and how they\u2019re going to be referred to is a fair one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EYou only have to look at the way in which it\u2019s going to be advertised. It\u2019s important, we think. There are a lot of placards, a lot of billboards, around elections now. Just wait till next year, because there are going to be any number of organisations who perhaps normally don\u2019t partake in the electoral process who will be partaking. So it is very important that there be a framework around which the two referenda are going to be conducted. For example, promoter statements must include all names and addresses on all referendum advertisements. Well, that\u2019s pretty fair because surely anyone who is seeking to ensure that they are getting the right message should know the bona fides, they should know the background of those who are going to be putting up the billboards, those who are giving the messaging, those who are going to be putting material through their social media, and it is very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo for those listening at home wondering what this debate is about, it\u2019s about ensuring that these referenda are as fair as they possibly can be. Promoters are to register if they intend to spend over a certain threshold on advertising. So, essentially, you\u2019ll be seeing that the rules are going to be aligned to be the same as those for the election. I won\u2019t go through the whole lot, but, importantly, this last one is that where expenditure on dual advertisements, where the advertisement is going to be for a position on the referenda and perhaps for a party\u2014and we\u2019ve already seen from the speakers on the other side, and we know where a majority of that party is going to be standing on many of these things\u2014it is quite clear that the funding and the promoters count towards both the election and the referenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo no one should fear. This is about providing a very fair, workable framework on which the referenda and the election will be conducted. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022 data-id=\u002267c73a25f8a047439afab8820630f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267c73a25f8a047439afab8820630f7f4\u0022\u003EMATT KING (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to take a call\u2014a short call. Smoke and mirrors\u2014that\u2019s what this Government\u2019s all about. They are sneaking stuff through in bills, talking about advertising and all that, but we know what the guts of this bill is about and it\u2019s undemocratic, it\u2019s unconstitutional. It\u2019s a little bit like the waka-jumping bill. It\u2019s typical arrogant behaviour of this Government. But we can talk all we like on this side of the House. They\u2019re going to do whatever they please. They\u2019re going to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EWe would never do this. We would never do this. This denies the public the right to consult, to provide their input, to provide feedback. You\u2019re meant to put electoral law reform through to make substantive improvements to the system, and this does not. We\u2019ve had a system that has worked really well since 1853. If it ain\u2019t broke, don\u2019t need to fix it. It\u2019s worked perfectly well since 1853 and they\u2019re going to change the rules now. So what I call this, I call this screwing the scrum. I call this underarm bowling. And I am very suspicious of their motives. I hope Kiwis are watching this. I want this Government to remember that they won\u2019t be in Government for long, and when they get thrown out, it might be for passing legislation like this. They\u2019re writing the rules to suit themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EKiwis like fairness. They don\u2019t like wool being pulled. And I can tell you, I don\u2019t like where this Government is taking us. They claim to be the most open and honest Government ever, but that\u2019s the biggest joke. Why put in a sunset clause to 2021? Why put in a clause there so it only makes it valid until the next election? So this Government are up to something and I don\u2019t trust them. Today, we have legislation being introduced under urgency that we have never seen before today and that will go through the House in one day. Why the urgency? Why, when it doesn\u2019t come into force until next year? Why is that? New Zealanders don\u2019t like this sort of thing. It has an odour about it. New Zealanders don\u2019t like this sort of thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d0e581f234049fbb247acdb42332d19\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f8870927ba44f4990b0a35c80441251\u0022\u003EMATT KING\u003C/span\u003E: You can laugh. It has an odour about it that Kiwis don\u2019t like. Roll on 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00226d7df14d102347c5b7127189ceab1b2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d7df14d102347c5b7127189ceab1b2b\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the ACT Party in support of this bill. I think it\u2019s a very fine initiative that Andrew Little\u2019s undertaken and I\u2019m very pleased to support it at its third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI hate to channel Deborah Russell, but I have to say that democracy has quite a long history and some people trace it back to the Greeks. They were the ones to experiment with direct democracy, which is kind of what is being proposed here. Socrates was one of the people who was randomly selected to chair the council of 500 citizens in ancient Athens and he actually withheld the vote one day because the people wanted to execute some generals for losing a battle. They didn\u2019t vote, but the next day, they selected a different chair for the council of 500 and he allowed the vote to go ahead. The generals were duly executed, the people were mad, and a few days later they executed those who advocated for the execution of the generals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI tell this story because democracy has always been fraught. It relies on people making decisions for others, often with limited information. But that is actually a feature not only of direct democracy\u2014as in the example I\u2019ve just given from the Council of 500\u2014it\u2019s equally something that happens with representative democracy. I think about this country\u2019s colonial history, when people used to be sent from distant provinces by sea to spend months at a time here in the capital\u2014and, earlier, in Auckland and before that in Koror\u0101reka\u2014in order to represent their districts. Often, those people were seen to let down the people that had sent them. That might be why Governments in the 19th century seldom lasted more than a year or two before they were dissolved and fresh elections caused. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWe see in places such as Switzerland direct democracy used to tremendous effect; one of the most effective democratic systems in the world and one of the best-governed countries. On the other hand, we see places like California where they have a referendum to reduce taxes and then they have another referendum to increase spending. It\u2019s one of the reasons that the great state of California is broke. I could go on all afternoon about examples of democracy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e7d334baefe4696a6a112ff346722a4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But I\u2019m not going to let you, because we are actually debating the bill. I\u2019d like you to mention the bill at some stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fe9c5f72b77435e8b2694f604fe6883\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014both direct and indirect. I\u2019m getting to the bill, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cec0a37e066248e6a0f011121cf9333a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c71384578d44f39bb2b2c4a791a8c4c\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m glad to see from your smiling visage that you\u2019re enjoying this Deborah Russellesque lesson in the history of democracy. The point is that we have representative democracy, we have direct democracy, and those who stand up and say that having a referendum is somehow wrong because we can\u2019t trust New Zealanders to make up their mind about what they think of an issue\u2014well, I\u2019d have to ask the people in this House saying that, how can we trust the people that elected them? Because if the New Zealand public are smart enough to elect representatives, then the ACT Party says they\u2019re smart enough to vote in referenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI look forward to the End of Life Choice Act having a referendum under this Act, and I look forward to the New Zealand public sorting through the facts and the fiction, because, if you\u2019ll excuse me, the New Zealand public have a finely honed BS detector, and there will be all sorts of misinformation and fake news there but I trust that New Zealanders will get to the truth and actually will see the End of Life Choice Act being ratified by referendum under this bill. It will not only be a great day for our country, being more compassionate, more humane, and more caring, but it will also be a great day for New Zealand democracy because we will have let the best of both worlds come to pass: rigorous and robust parliamentary scrutiny of a bill\u2014in fact, the most rigorous scrutiny of any bill in living memory for the End of Life Choice Bill, so we know we got the details right\u2014and we allowed the people of New Zealand to have the final say. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s a bad outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI see Nick Smith furiously scribbling notes there, thinking \u201CWhat do I say now?\u201D Well, I\u2019ll say to him that the End of Life Choice Act has the question legislated\u2014just in case he was going to use that one. So I commend this bill to the House. I think it\u2019s a great day for democracy, and if the End of Life Choice Act becomes law, it will be a great day for a compassionate and humane New Zealand. Thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022d31fc63597264b3ca4fa2ad6ecb1198a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d31fc63597264b3ca4fa2ad6ecb1198a\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s great to have the words of both those referendums now available, which pretty much put to bed the bulk of the arguments we\u2019ve heard today about there being uncertainty around where this bill is heading and what the purpose of it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo what has been frustrating is that through the course of the debate on this bill\u2014and we are now at the third reading\u2014we have had the same two issues raised by the Opposition time and time again. I think they may have their taringa turned off, because there have been several responses from this side to explain the two main issues. The first being, why is this bill time limited? And the second being, where are the words for the referendum? So now that we have answers to both of those, I look forward to the sheer moral panic and cries of the unconstitutional nature of this bill that are completely unfounded. What we have is a bunch of panic monkeys that are really quite fixated on trying to make a problem out of absolutely nothing. It is interesting to see that the lead primate in this area has, in fact, returned from Nelson, so it\u2019s great to see that we\u2019ll have even more rigour in this debate, as the freelancer has returned to discuss how much New Zealand\u2019s constitution will be brought into disrepute as a result of New Zealanders being able to vote Yes or No on two very important issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EJust to reiterate for the umpteenth time, let\u2019s go over the two key issues and the responses to those issues for the benefit of those New Zealanders at home so they will not be unnecessarily panicked by the false words being uttered from the other side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe first one is around why this bill is time limited. It\u2019s really important to state that the Government has committed to holding a referendum on legalising the personal use of cannabis alongside the 2020 general election. As we all know, there has also been a bill passed in this House that enables New Zealanders to now vote on the End of Life Choice Act. The reason why this bill is time limited is that a far more comprehensive piece of policy work, review, and legislation would be required which would be far more complex than the current bill and that would take far more time and it would risk New Zealanders not being able to have their say on this in the next general election. And that\u2019s it\u2014that\u2019s it. No, Matt King, there is no ulterior motive or wider agenda here. It\u2019s to enable New Zealanders to have a vote on two key issues of which I\u2019m sure there is a great level of interest in New Zealand to be able to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo if we want to be able to proceed without doing quite an extensive piece of work from the legislative framework required to review things like the Referenda (Postal Voting) Act 2000 and the Citizens Initiated Referenda Act 1993, it would also need to have all of those issues addressed. By doing this, and having it time limited, it still leaves room for that wider piece of work to be done in the long term. And that can be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe second issue that\u2019s been raised, as well, is that we don\u2019t have the wording for the referendum available. It\u2019s great to see that, in fact, we do. Let\u2019s read it out now. It says, \u201CDo you support the proposed Cannabis Legislation and Control Bill?\u201D And you say, \u201CYes, I support the proposed Cannabis Legislation and Control Bill.\u201D or \u201CNo, I do not support the proposed Cannabis Legislation and Control Bill.\u201D They are the words that will be in the upcoming referendum at the next 2020 general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAttached to that will also be a draft bill that is able to be viewed and commented on and also a very interesting, informative website where people can log on right now\u2014it\u2019s live\u2014and find out further information about how that operates. So I am lost to understand why there is an issue here. We have a good, healthy, thriving democracy that is able to go out and exercise their vote in the next general election, alongside two key issues that every single New Zealander who is 18 years or over can now vote on, including prisoners who are in prison for under three years as well\u2014thank you very much. It will be up to New Zealanders to vote on and I think it\u2019s incredibly important that we have the opportunity for these debates. By having all that information up front, by enabling New Zealanders to go into the election informed about the referendums, the Government is committed to a well-informed, impartial referendum process, and therefore, Madam Speaker, I commend\u2014Mr Speaker; sorry, you\u2019ve changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220f2fb4b0c8c4fb99e46b0273888455a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I haven\u2019t changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b962cc8bc1d547cfb4ba47d38c34d673\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00220a61553abeab42c89e80ead40d8951df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a61553abeab42c89e80ead40d8951df\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E The Speaker is changeable, the weather is changeable, and it seems with this Government they\u2019ll go to any extent to change the electoral laws in the way that this bill proposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to express real concern about the heart of this bill because we need to be clear about what we\u2019re doing. This bill takes the power away from Parliament and gives to the Government the decision about however many referendum they want to hold, on whatever topics they want to hold, and whatever wording they wish to have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe most chilling words in the debate on this bill were those from New Zealand First Minister Tracey Martin, who said that Parliament could not be trusted. I have heard words of arrogance, I have heard words that are dismissive of our democracy, of this institution of Parliament, but none as bad as those from New Zealand First that would dismiss this democratic tradition that referendum will be determined at general elections by the Parliament and through good process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill is not the first time, not the second time, but actually the multiple occasions of which the Government is riding roughshod over New Zealand\u2019s democratic traditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe should be hugely proud that we are the fourth-oldest continuous democracy in the world. That democracy depends on respect for conventions. The convention, since 1853, has been that if a Government wants a referendum, it shall bring a bill to the Parliament, and that referendum\u2014the topic and the wording\u2014will be authorised by this Parliament. That\u2019s been the case for 23 referendums. That has been the case in every single referendum held in this country since 1853, and what this bill does is take that power away from this Parliament and gives it to the Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, the previous speaker, Ginny Andersen, said, \u201COh, well, but the wording of the referendum that might be held at the next election has been determined.\u201D No, it has not. This bill gives the absolute discretion to the Cabinet to decide whatever referendum and whatever wording that it wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, I heard one of the Labour speakers say that those who criticise this bill are panic merchants. Well, I do not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac0b44713e6742fc876d4a06e403cc19\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: No, she said \u201Cpanic monkeys\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa12790c1fd445748c3fbec67af9c097\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, maybe David Seymour thinks they are. Does he think that the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee\u2014made of some of the most dry officials that I have heard\u2014came before the Justice Committee and said this bill is undemocratic and is contrary to the conduct of fair and free elections\u2014contrary to the conduct of free and fair elections is what the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee said of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, I can understand David Seymour, so pleased with respect to the issue of euthanasia that the only way he can progress that bill is through use of a referendum. But I think even he, in his heart of hearts, is concerned about the carte blanche power that this bill gives to the Cabinet to hold whatever referendum they like. I see there are members of Parliament that feel very strongly about the issue of M\u0101ori seats. It would mean that a future National Government could just decide off its bat: \u201COh, we\u2019ll have a referendum to get rid of the M\u0101ori seats\u201D or of any other subject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee that has been highly critical of this bill. Peter Dunne, who has been a Minister both in Labour and National Governments, has described this bill as \u201CPutinesque\u201D, as the sort of referendum you hold when there is a failure of democracy in those sort of authoritarian states, and of which has no place in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to challenge members opposite, to remind them of what they said about the flag referendum bill. They argued that it was undemocratic that members of the public only had five minutes to submit on the wording of the flag referendum. So I say to the members opposite: how many minutes will the public get to make submissions on the recreational cannabis referendum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240473f12610b4a75ae2cb5fde06a16a1\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Less than five.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c027dbef1a4a4f97b245eb3ce07a27f7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Less than five? None at all\u2014absolutely not a boo! How much opportunity, Mr Seymour, was there for the public to submit on the question of the referendum on euthanasia? Absolutely zip; zero. So how can members opposite, when in Opposition, call it undemocratic for the flag referendum in which members of the public had extensive opportunity to be able to submit on both the topic and the wording, when this bill takes that power away and gives it solely to the Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAs the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee rightly said, this bill involves a substantive shift of power away from the Parliament and to the executive. That\u2019s what it does, and we in this Parliament have to question whether that is appropriate. Let\u2019s be quite clear, what members opposite want to do is cut out the most popular political party in New Zealand. They want the party that\u2019s got the most seats in the Parliament to be completely deprived of any process. Under the Official Information Act, what the parties in Government have said is, \u201CLet\u2019s have a nice, cute process where we\u2019re involved in deciding what referendum there will be, deciding what the topics and the questions will be.\u201D But this is a vehicle for cutting out Parliament, and the process is primarily about cutting out the largest party in the Parliament, and that, again, is undemocratic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAs the Minister said, this is just about providing a good framework for referendum, but the bill has got a termination clause: it only applies to the 2020 election. In other words, let\u2019s be plain, the Government wants to pull this constitutional rort while it\u2019s in Government but it is not something that it wants any future Government to have the power to do, and that just exposes how shallow the true intent of this bill is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also just want to raise the issues of which we\u2019re having referendum\u2014what a dog\u2019s breakfast. David Seymour is correct. On the euthanasia referendum, at least the question has been voted upon by the Parliament; with the recreational cannabis referendum, that has simply been decided by the executive. There is also the potential, under this bill, for there to be a referendum on abortion. There will be those that would argue that if it\u2019s good enough to have a referendum on the issue of euthanasia, why would there be a different approach to abortion? Let\u2019s be plain, the Government is simply rigging the referendum to get the outcome that it wants for its social agenda of reform, whether that be recreational cannabis or whether it be the issue of euthanasia. Every member of this House knows that the wording of the question matters. Extensive polling shows that if the question is around \u201Cassisted suicide\u201D, for instance, the answer is likely to be no, but if you use the language of \u201Ceuthanasia\u201D or you use the language of \u201Cend of life choice\u201D, it\u2019s far more likely to pass; equally so on the issues of recreational cannabis or others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI would challenge the Government that if you wanted to have a good process, if you wanted to respect the constitutional conventions that have been around in this country for over 160 years, if you want to do what you said you would do, when you were in Opposition, then each referendum would be authorised by the Parliament, the public would have the opportunity to be able to have a say on both the topic and the wording, and then you would have a robust process. Here is the risk: why should Parliament be bound by the result of a referendum in which it\u2019s had no say in the framing of the question or the topic? That is where we should look to Brexit and the dangers of referendum being held in a willy-nilly way. This is a bad process. This is a bad bill. This is another chink in this Government\u2019s record of doing the political thing rather than doing the right thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022df8ab966f21e489eadd49d6d25e7ed6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df8ab966f21e489eadd49d6d25e7ed6d\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa e ng\u0101 mema o Te Whare. You would think that the sky is going to fall in after listening to that speaker, Dr Nick Smith, who has just resumed his seat. The Referendums Framework Bill is putting in trail the process in which these two referendum questions are put to the general public in election 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be really clear. As part of the confidence and supply agreement between the Labour and the Green Party, we said we would take the cannabis referendum question to the general election year. It is simply a yes or no question\u2014it is simply a yes or no question. How Dr Nick Smith can draw it out that it is unconstitutional or the scrutiny of Parliament\u2019s not going to have the ability to answer a yes or no question is beyond me. So let\u2019s get it really right around the recreational cannabis reform. It\u2019s simply a yes or no question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIn terms of end of life choice, the entire House not only debated that particular bill but it also debated the question. So in terms of the allegations that somehow this side is bypassing the scrutiny of the Parliament, well, it\u2019s unfounded\u2014it\u2019s completely unfounded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThis is a simple bill, as many speakers on this side of the House have avowed; it is to give the tools to the Electoral Commission around answering these two referendum questions in next year\u2019s general election. It\u2019s nothing more; it\u2019s nothing less. It\u2019s consistent with this Government\u2019s confidence and supply, and it\u2019s to honour the debate that this whole House had on the End of Life Choice Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIt is important that we assure this House that we are taking this seriously as a coalition Government to ensure that the general public have their say. This allegation of it being a constitutional overreach is purely an exaggeration. It\u2019s not that. It has had the scrutiny of the select committee, and I would challenge what Dr Smith said about the legislative advisory committee. He tends to do that; he tends to stretch what people\u2019s allegations are about it being unconstitutional, but it isn\u2019t\u2014it isn\u2019t. It is not. He is over-stretching that point. It\u2019s a simple, simple question of what we are trying to do here, consistent with this Government, around setting clear direction to the Electoral Commission as we go to the polling booths next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EWhat I did want to talk about is the alignment with what we\u2019re passing here, which is currently in the Electoral Act, particularly around advertising. I just wanted to make a couple of comments around ensuring that we are very clear that, when we are talking about advertising, we are applying the same three-month rule prior to referendums as we do in the general elections. So I think that\u2019s a really important point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the advertising rules: to make sure that campaign statements are clear so that we know whoever\u2019s supporting the pros and cons of the two referendum questions; that the public get to know who\u2019s advertising, that their name and address is there. I think that\u2019s really, really important. So as we go into next year\u2019s election, those that are pro - recreational cannabis or opposed to it\u2014similarly with end of life choice, pro and against\u2014those that are advertising, the general public should know who\u2019s promoting the advertisement and the address around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EWe also want to make sure that we are consistent around the amounts of money that we\u2019re spending\u2014so, under $13,000 for those over a certain threshold, a referendum advertising of $100,000, and also applying the limit of $330,000 on referendum advertising. These are really important frameworks around the advertising as we lead into next year\u2019s general election on these two particular questions. This is what the Referendums Framework Bill is enabling the Parliament to do\u2014it is to give that consistency to the Electoral Commission, the general public knows what they\u2019re being asked to agree on, and that we set the tight frameworks consistent with the Electoral Act under this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ENow, there have been allegations of \u201CWhy throw it out after 2020?\u201D Well, clearly, any future referendum should actually be scrutinised by this House and should be scrutinised by the public. So it makes absolute sense that this bill terminates at the conclusion of the general election 2020. It is really a simple bill enabling us to conduct the referendums, as agreed by this House and also in the confidence and supply agreement between Labour and the Greens. It is a straightforward bill that gives those frameworks. I support it, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b78c0da0ac9d41bb9df58dc2200d8486\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Referendums Framework Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c97ab46f9e1e43cdb63209e70a3d2e2e\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002228b4fa0ee0f94bb8906f883e07c6b735\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f33834d6a4244e17859562ee261a887f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f33834d6a4244e17859562ee261a887f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the passing through all stages of the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2), the third readings of the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2) and the National Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Bill (No 2), and the second reading of the Maritime Transport (Offshore Installations) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2) takes action to protect New Zealand from foreign interference in our elections by banning donations to political parties and candidates. It\u2019s an issue that is being faced around the world, and, of course, it is one that we will face next year in our election year. The Government believes it\u2019s important that the measures in the bill are put in place as early as possible before election year gets under way, which is the reason that we are asking the House to pass it through all stages under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s likely that consideration of the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2) will continue into tomorrow morning, meaning that select committees will not meet. In order to make optimum use of the House\u2019s time, the third readings of the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2) and the National Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Bill (No 2) and the second reading of the Maritime Transport (Offshore Installations) Amendment Bill are also included in this motion. Both of the agriculture sector bills make important contributions to safeguard the future of the country\u2019s most important industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2) is scheduled to commence in part on 1 February next year, and the Maritime Transport (Offshore Installations) Amendment Bill also commences at the start of next year. It\u2019s important that these bills complete their passage through the House this year, which may not be possible without the granting of urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI do want to undertake publicly, as I have given an undertaking to the shadow Leader of the House, that the Government does not intend to progress with urgency beyond 1\u00A0p.m. tomorrow, so that the House\u2019s regular business of question time and members\u2019 day can resume in the afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002245e1d5509b02409380fb1fb91177c0c0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002246a70bbcf5584ad09eeebe068404d905\u0022\u003EElectoral Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022753fe339ebe8482b85b6c346253809cb\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002255abf5201fd8424e853affae1af343a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255abf5201fd8424e853affae1af343a6\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Electoral Act 1993 to ban foreign donations in New Zealand parliamentary elections. It establishes that only those who are part of New Zealand\u2019s democracy should participate in our electoral system. It reduces the risk of foreign money influencing our political process, and it does that by banning foreign donations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe risk of foreign interference is of real concern and is a real risk. The Justice Committee has heard evidence in public of the nature of this risk as they\u2019ve conducted their inquiry into the 2017 general election, which also coincided with their inquiry into the 2016 local body elections. That inquiry, at least into the 2017 general election, has been going on for a long time, and that inquiry showed, from those who made submissions and those who gave evidence, that the risks around foreign interference and foreign influence are very real. It would be negligent and irresponsible of the Government of the day to not take note of that evidence and of the risks that are apparent as we head into our general election year next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, when it was pretty clear what the risks were and that we had gaps in our law and that it was appropriate that the Government of the day do something about it, I indicated publicly that I was keen for the Justice Committee to conclude their inquiry and give them a chance, and for this House indeed, to consider the recommendations of that committee, because that committee is looking closely at these issues. I know they\u2019ve got a range of issues that they are considering\u2014that\u2019s a matter of public record\u2014and I am eagerly awaiting their report, but I also said that if the committee was not able to conclude their work in this area in enough time for us to make changes for the next general election, the Government would proceed to make those changes. So here we are, in the last session of Parliament for the year, on the cusp of an election year next year, and we need to make these changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis House would be failing its duty to the electors of New Zealand if it pooh-poohed the evidence given to the Justice Committee, disregarded it or played games or did whatever, and thought that it was OK to expose our democratic system, our electoral system, to the risks that are very clear cut and have been manifest in democracies around the world. This Government is not prepared to take that risk and is not prepared to dither and dilly-dally and play games. It is time to make sure that the gaps in our electoral law are covered off so that New Zealand voters can face our democratic system, our election system, free from the threats and risks of foreign interference. So that\u2019s why this bill is here, and that\u2019s why this bill is being considered under urgency. What a pity\u2014what a pity\u2014that the Justice Committee has not been able to conclude their very important work, come up with their conclusions, and inform the House, but it is what it is and we\u2019re stuck with what we\u2019ve got.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI might add, too, that the advice has been very clear to me, as Minister of Justice, that there are a number of problems with our Electoral Act 1993. The way it has been characterised to me is that it is, effectively, the 1956 Act with MMP added, and a lot of distortions and gaps have opened up in it that really need to be seriously addressed cohesively, coherently, and together. But it simply isn\u2019t possible to do that\u2014to cover off every problem, to cover off every gap\u2014in time for next year\u2019s general election. But the promise that this Government makes is that, if re-elected, we will commence that work\u2014ground up, thoroughgoing review\u2014of our electoral laws and our electoral framework with a view to making sure that in an election, probably by 2026, we will have legislation covering our electoral system relevant to the 21st century and safeguarding New Zealand\u2019s democratic interests. Ideally, one wants to do these things on a cross-party basis, but sometimes personalities and parties opposite are not capable of engaging on that basis, and so one has to pick one\u2019s time and look at the moment to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo we come back to this, the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2), and its objective. In addition to banning foreign donations, with a de minimis sort of allowance of $50 to cover off the odd raffle ticket sold to a person who is not resident in New Zealand, not qualified to vote but is here, or the bucket collections that sometimes happen. It nevertheless bans foreign donations, because I think the one thing that is very clear is New Zealanders want to know that our electoral system cannot be bought by those with deep pockets from abroad. But it does more than that; it\u2019s not just a ban on the donations. It now places on party general-secretaries a due diligence requirement\u2014a requirement to take reasonable steps in relation to donations\u2014to ensure that they comply with the law. Now, obviously, that will apply in relation to foreign donations, but actually the way it applies, it will end up applying to all donations. So party general-secretaries need to make sure that the donations received comply with the law, and, for that matter, candidates in the electorate contests must ensure that the donations that they are receiving comply with the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, I am sure, as the debate unfolds, there\u2019ll be members on all sides who will have examples of things that they think are wrong about the way the law has been applied or the way parties have applied the law in their respective eras. I\u2019m not sure how helpful that is to the debate. I\u2019ve already acknowledged there are gaps in our law\u2014there are improvements we can make in our law\u2014but, given the fact we don\u2019t have the benefit of the collective wisdom of the Justice Committee and the evidence they\u2019ve gathered in relation to the 2017 election, we are not embarking on wholesale reform. That will have to wait for another time or for another Parliament\u2014I expect, the next Parliament\u2014but, in the meantime, we have to deal with the very real risk that we\u2019re facing at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo a combination of the foreign donations ban, the added requirement on party general-secretaries to exercise due diligence, and candidates to exercise due diligence in relation to the donations they receive\u2014all of those things will help. What will also help is a requirement in this bill that party general-secretaries must be resident in New Zealand, and a further requirement to deal with this issue is that advertisements taken out online, taken out on social media platforms, must have the sorts of attribution provisions that apply to any other paid advertising for a general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo all of those things go some way to filling the gap that is there in our law at the moment. It won\u2019t be perfect. It won\u2019t meet every gap that is there, but it will go a lot longer than what is there at the moment to providing and ensuring greater integrity of our electoral system and of our democratic systems and processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve covered that off. I\u2019ve covered off the provisions of the bill, what the limits are, the fact that there is a $50 tolerance for that, and by enacting that legislation now, it means we go into the general election next year, we go into 2020, very sure from the outset that we have a clear, unequivocal regime around foreign donations, and people can enter the election process next year with considerable certainty. Parties can organise themselves around the law and be very certain about what it means and know what their obligations are. I am advised that the Electoral Commission will give appropriate guidance and advice on how they intend to police and oversee the due diligence requirements on party general-secretaries. I\u2019ve made it clear in my discussions with officials that I expect there to be a bit of a sliding scale, a bit of proportionality to apply, so the smaller the donation, the less rigorous you can tolerate the due diligence requirements being. But if it\u2019s $150,000 from a company whose name is \u201CNew Zealand Mongolian Thoroughbred Racing Ltd\u201D, then I expect much more rigorous and intensive due diligence requirements to be fulfilled. So that\u2019s the stuff about which the Justice Committee received advice is threatening the integrity of our electoral and our democratic system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo all of those things will make a difference. This bill sends a very strong signal that our electoral system is not for buying by wealthy overseas donors, and it sends a very strong signal from the parties, at least on this side\u2014and, I hope, parties on the other side, because some have said to me that they support a ban on foreign donations\u2014that this House will send a strong signal to the voters of New Zealand that they take seriously the threats to our electoral system and that this House is prepared to do something meaningful about it. That\u2019s what this bill does. It sets us up well for a fair, proper, well-run election for next year, an election that will be conducted with integrity, about which voters can have confidence in the result. On that basis, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022890ac57b77b84269afd78228cd6db217\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022890ac57b77b84269afd78228cd6db217\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E This is an extraordinary situation where we have our Parliament in urgency being asked to rush through changes to our electoral law, where the Opposition party only received a copy of the bill at 11 a.m. this morning, after our caucus had even started, and where the bill is proposed to go through its first reading, its committee stage, its second reading, and become law by today. The question the Parliament has to ask is: why on earth is the Minister of Justice panicked into this sort of shoddy parliamentary process? The honest answer is this: firstly, the Government\u2019s just had a bad poll, so they want to be looking like they\u2019re doing something, and the second thing is they are behaving like a wounded bull in response to the very serious disclosures of the New Zealand First Foundation and what is going on within the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ECan I firstly deal with the issue of foreign donations. I gave a speech that I give every year to my rotary clubs, and that speech talked about electoral law and National\u2019s views. In that speech, I said that the issue of foreign donations was one of concern to National. It was an area in which we felt there needed to be a tightening, and that is why we actually support a tightening of the law in that area. But we want it being done in a thoughtful, in a careful, and in a robust way, not in the way of a bill being rushed through the Parliament in a 24-hour period that is more about window dressing than getting to the heart of the issues. The Minister has proclaimed this bill as a ban on foreign donations. I\u2019m sorry, that\u2019s a bit of political spin. The current law bans donations over $1,500. What this bill does is reduce that level from $1,500 to $50. But I ask the Parliament to reflect: do we really think the current law, with a $1,500 limit, is really having the big threat to democracy from foreign powers that the Minister speaks of? Fifteen hundred dollars\u2014really?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENational supports a reduction in that limit, but we should not pretend that, somehow, this is a magic solution to the inappropriate use of foreign donations. Everybody knows, and the Minister accepts, that all a foreigner needs to do is set up a New Zealand registered trust with a lawyer friend or set up a company in New Zealand, and that company could quite legitimately make donations under this bill. That is why this bill is all about politics and not really contributing to the improvements in the fairness of our democracy and ensuring that it is protected from some of the growing influences of foreign individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI do want to talk seriously about the process issues of this bill. The very strong precedent\u2014and I sat in the Cabinet room when Prime Minister John Key said that after the fiasco of the electoral finance laws, any electoral bill that a National Government promoted would need to have proper consultation with the Opposition and would need to enjoy wide support across the Parliament. The reason John Key is a person of integrity who wants to see New Zealand\u2019s democracy being strong and its constitutional conventions being respected, is that we are an unusual country. We don\u2019t have a constitution. You could pass all number of electoral amendments to try and screw the scrum to the advantage of the governing parties, and that is an anathema to those that believe in fair contest. It\u2019s like the one sports team in the contest being able to write the rules to suit themselves. While that may occur in the America\u2019s Cup sometimes, we do not support it as the way for dealing with serious issues of democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo every single bill of an electoral nature under the nine years of the previous Key Government, introduced by justice Minister Amy Adams, Judith Collins, or Simon Power, involved extensive consultation with the Opposition and involved more than a majority, and that involved compromise. I contrast that with respect to the record of Mr Little. This is the fourth electoral amendment bill that he\u2019s brought to this Parliament without any consultation with Opposition parties at all. We had it with the waka-hopping law, we had it with the law on referendums that\u2019s just gone through its third reading, we had it with the Electoral Amendment Bill, and now we have it with the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2). Andrew Little is on the public record saying that electoral bills should be consulted on with the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EContrast that with this bill, where the first I heard of it was a phone call at quarter past 11 today, after the National caucus had already started, a day on which a large number of MPs were delayed, with weather, being able to get to Parliament. It just exposes how shoddy the process is. So no consultation. I have said to Andrew Little on three occasions: my door is open. Just make the phone call, and I\u2019m happy to have the discussion on behalf of National to make sure that we robustly improve our electoral laws. No consultation, no select committee process, and urgency in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe Minister made mention of the Justice Committee process, and it\u2019s proper that we put on the record what has occurred in that respect. The Justice Committee only opened submissions on the issue of foreign interference in the elections in April this year. For the Minister to be critical of that process, he needs to have a talk with his own colleagues. That is a select committee of which we\u2019ve had six different chairs, for goodness\u2019 sake! The current Labour members of the committee were not even there when we heard the submissions from those interested in the issues of foreign interference. If there is any responsibility for that process being delayed, it rests with Labour members, and it is disingenuous of the Minister to use that as an excuse for riding over this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister: he introduced an Electoral Amendment Bill in October; what\u2019s different between October and December? That bill is going to a select committee, and we are currently hearing submissions on it. Why is it not possible, and why did he not include in that bill those issues that have been around for more than two years rather than introducing them under urgency in this process? We are being asked to pass 20 clauses of law, very detailed provisions in an area that everybody knows is incredibly complex to get right, around limits on donations and the importance of integrity over electoral law. It is just a disgrace that the Minister is wanting the Parliament to rubber-stamp his particular changes in this area when it is bleedingly obvious that this bill does not go nearly far enough to deal with the risks that the Minister has identified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EFor instance, we\u2019ve just had a big mayoral campaign in Auckland. Why does this ban on foreign donations not include local government? I have to say that there were accusations during the Auckland mayoral campaign between Mayor Goff and a former Labour MP, John Tamihere. If you\u2019re serious about containing foreign influence in elections, why is it OK for foreigners to be able to make massive donations in respect of local elections? Why are New Zealand registered trusts and companies\u2014why is it possible to just set up a shelf company and get round the provisions that are here, and why is the Government rushing through the significant changes that are being made around the social media provisions? All of these issues have been at the heart of nine months of work of the Justice Committee. There is no case for a rush. This is law that needs to be done with care, with due attention, where the Electoral Commission is able to appear before a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ll be moving motions. We would be happy to provide for a fast-track process to make sure that improvements in this law are in place for the next general election, but there should be a select committee process\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee0b49ce569744a7b2a7301a184339c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee0b49ce569744a7b2a7301a184339c7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired\u2014[Interruption] The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u00221befc1eff114431c88af92fe4f56945e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221befc1eff114431c88af92fe4f56945e\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is an extremely important bill. The Government is moving to close a critical gap which is a threat to our democracy. I want to read to you a definition of foreign interference provided by the NZSIS and the GCSB, which defined it as \u201Can act by a foreign state, or its proxy, that is intended to influence, disrupt or subvert a New Zealand national interest by covert, deceptive or threatening means.\u201D This definition recognises the importance of democratically protected rights of political expression or the ability of States or entities to negotiate with each other and accepted norms such as open lobbying or diplomatic activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe risk of foreign interference in elections is a growing international phenomenon. The Minister of Justice has told us that in his first reading speech today. New Zealand is not immune to that. We\u2019ve heard credible reports of interference campaigns in the elections of other countries with increasing sophistication. Interference in New Zealand\u2019s electoral system is plausible. Considering that, moving to deal with this is critical. That\u2019s why I say this is an extremely important bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWhat is extraordinary is the game-playing, disingenuous statements by the Opposition member Nick Smith around how we don\u2019t need to do it right now and that we should wait.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe Justice Committee, which has been referenced several times today in the House, started hearing an inquiry into the general election and local government elections in July 2018\u2014nearly 18 months ago\u2014and expanded that out to foreign interference in elections at the end of last year. There has been time to get that right and report that back to the House. That has not happened. The Minister has, several times over the last few months, signalled very strongly that he wanted to see a report, he wanted to take action, and what we\u2019re seeing today is that he has said that enough\u2019s enough and it\u2019s time to take action, because we cannot wait. We cannot wait for more weeks and more months to go by where there has not been a report-back, and Nick Smith needs to take a look in the mirror on that, instead of getting up in the House and spouting forward his usual speech about constitutional outrages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis Minister is taking action for New Zealand\u2019s precious democracy to ensure that we are acting on foreign donations, and I am very proud to be standing here in the House today to support that, because it\u2019s vital that we\u2019ve got reform in place before the next election to provide safeguards against the risks of foreign interference. This legislation isn\u2019t perfect and it doesn\u2019t do the whole job, but it\u2019s a really important step in that process, with reforms to send a clear signal that this is an issue that warrants immediate attention. So changing the law now gives parties, it gives candidates, and it gives the Electoral Commission enough time and certainty to make the necessary changes in time for the 2020 election, and I challenge the Opposition over there to get up and tell this House and the public of New Zealand that we should wait on this. We absolutely should not wait. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis bill does three things\u2014well, it does more than three things, but three main things: it counters the risk of foreign interference through the banning of donations to political parties and candidates above that $50 threshold, and that means that small-scale fund-raising activities aren\u2019t unduly affected; it introduces a due diligence requirement for party secretaries and candidates to take reasonable steps\u2014and the Minister mentioned proportionality with regard to that\u2014to ensure that a donation isn\u2019t from an overseas person, or hasn\u2019t been made on behalf of an overseas person; and it counters the risk of foreign interference by requiring authorisation statements on all online advertising, the same as it is with offline advertising. We will talk about this in the further stages of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis is another really critical stage. It\u2019s the first real move that you\u2019ve seen in the New Zealand Parliament by a Government that\u2019s prepared to move against disinformation\u2014really critical\u2014and, in the meantime, we\u2019re progressing legislation to make it easier for New Zealanders to vote at the 2020 election as well as allowing people to enrol to vote on election day. This is closing a gap. It doesn\u2019t deal with all of the issues. There are still loopholes. The Minister has signalled that there is further work required. The further work that\u2019s required needs to look further at transmission, at social media, at hacking, and, further, at disinformation. This is a really important step. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002269416ebb3966441a9a790c446787d501\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269416ebb3966441a9a790c446787d501\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u201CElectoral Amendment Bill\u201D it says, and in brackets after that, it says \u201C(No 2)\u201D. I presume that\u2019s because it\u2019s the second such-named bill that we have on the Order Paper, and not because that would be a description of the process around introducing this legislation, but No. 2, none the less, it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s worthwhile distinguishing between the process and the substance of this bill. There will be much said about this today, no doubt, and I say \u201Ctoday\u201D in inverted commas\u2014if the Hansard people would indulge me in that way\u2014because today will be not only the calendar day that is today but also tomorrow will be today, and that\u2019s because urgency as set by this House means that the legal fiction of Parliament is that, actually, tomorrow will be a continuation of today\u2019s business. We\u2019ll be rushing through today, in Parliament terms, this entire bill from start to finish, from go to whoa, and that is an extraordinary thing. It\u2019s an extraordinary thing to see acknowledged so bluntly that this place does not represent the real world when we think about the fact that we\u2019re going to be considering this bill in urgency in the parliamentary sense of that word, but there is clearly no urgency about it in any real-world meaning of that phrase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EJust in relation to that, I\u2019d just note that the legislation isn\u2019t going to become effective until next year, so if there were any argument about needing to rush through something to avoid a flood of foreign donations in the time that it takes Parliament to consider a short process\u2014perhaps, instead of a week or two, it may be a very truncated select committee process\u2014well, that, in fact, is not needed. So we can discard that possible objection very readily. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EStaying on the process, before I move to the substance\u2014so the shonky process before we get to the reasonable substance\u2014it\u2019s extraordinary to me that Green and Labour members have supported the urgency motion and, indeed have proposed it, in the case of Labour members, via the Leader of the House, because I haven\u2019t been around very long, but I do remember before the time that I came into this place, those parties\u2019 members would routinely be outraged as the use of urgency for some relatively meritorious situations, I\u2019d have to say. Certainly, in the case of a piece of legislation, the ink of which is still drying in my hand, it having been introduced only as recently as 11 o\u2019clock this morning, or so, it seems absolutely extraordinary that we should be in this position of having to consider and give consideration to it at first, second, and third reading, with a committee stage thrown in for good measure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe process and the substance of the bill, in a way, are two different matters, as I\u2019ve alluded to, but they do actually connect at the point where we have to observe, if we\u2019re a responsible legislature, that the likelihood of cock-ups in the substance increases with the poor process, essentially. So the likelihood of shortfalls, anomalies, and unintended consequences in the legislation increases in inverse proportion to the amount of time that we spend on it. Obviously, within reason, it\u2019s helpful to spend more time, not less, on a matter that is significant, and if the other side of the House is correct in saying that this is a very significant bill\u2014and to some extent, they\u2019re right; the issues are significant\u2014then, surely, it behoves them to acknowledge the importance of having a reasonable process where we give members of the public as well as members of this House the opportunity to have their say on its various provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also not clear why we\u2019re doing one aspect of electoral law with such a rush\u2014literally, so urgently\u2014when other aspects are not only not raised in the legislation but, presumably, will be considered at a more measured and reasonable pace. So the anomaly there in terms of having a piecemeal approach where the various different moving parts are moving at different speeds takes some getting one\u2019s head around. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s turn, though, from the process to the substance, and it\u2019s worth acknowledging\u2014as my colleague the Hon Dr Nick Smith has done so\u2014that there are some worthwhile aspects to this. National is not averse to tightening the law around foreign donations. Indeed, as he mentioned, it was something that he was on the public record regarding earlier in this year, and, in fact, that\u2019s something that we support as a matter of principle. Without breaching the privilege of the select committee proceedings in the Justice Committee, I can say that that\u2019s a matter which we\u2019ve been carefully considering the way ahead, along with Government members, and we\u2019ll have some positive and constructive things to say about that in due course. I suppose it\u2019s worth adding the caveat, again, as to process that we\u2019ll do our best as part of that process, to the extent that we\u2019re not undermined by the unilateral dropping of legislation, as we\u2019ve seen today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s think, then, about what the bill actually does. By its own statement, under the general policy statement, \u201CThe Bill makes several changes to the Electoral Act 1993 to send a clear signal that only those who are part of New Zealand\u2019s democracy, [etc.] should participate in our electoral system.\u201D Well, that\u2019s fine, as far as it goes, and it\u2019s good, as far as is goes, actually, but we should examine that reasonably clearly in the context of a clear signal that the bill says it\u2019s going to send. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWe need to do more in this place than merely send clear signals. We need to have hard and fast rules that actually have the intended effect. I\u2019ll get on to some of the detail of that as best I can within the current allotted time, but if not, then I\u2019ll have other opportunities later today\u2014multiple opportunities, in fact, considering we are rushing this thing with such indecent haste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut for now, I will echo the words of my colleague Dr Smith in relation to what\u2019s being advertised as a ban on donations. Well, if what we have is a ban on donations under this bill, then we already have a ban of donations, because all that is actually happening is that the threshold is simply being shifted from the current $1,500 down to $50. It\u2019s a significant shift, to be fair, but the nature of the thing is the same in either case. So either they are already banned and we\u2019re re-banning at a different level, or it\u2019s not a ban at all; it\u2019s just simply allowance being moved. So either way, it sort of seems a bit disingenuous for the bill to be sort of characterising its own operation in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAnother matter of substance is in relation to the fact that the bill doesn\u2019t apply to local elections, only to parliamentary elections. So again, without getting ahead of the select committee process, it does seem slightly anomalous. In fact, I could observe anyway, without having any sort of knowledge or involvement in that select committee process, that it seems rather strange not to take the opportunity to amend local government legislation as well in the same way. And I don\u2019t know\u2014I genuinely don\u2019t know. It\u2019s hard to make a guess, really, what the Minister\u2019s going to come up with next. It might be that there is the equivalent of this about to drop. Maybe we\u2019ll get that at 11 o\u2019clock next Tuesday\u2014a surprise in amongst the Christmas cards. But in any case, it\u2019s not something that\u2019s being done or even attempted here. Again, it\u2019s a piecemeal approach that we\u2019re seeing from the Minister and the Government in this regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe wording of the bill is just really interesting, and no doubt we\u2019ll get into the substance of that\u2014the real detail of that\u2014in the committee stage later this evening and tomorrow morning, which will still be today, as I\u2019ve explained, in the strange kind of parliamentary way. One of the key phrases that jumped out to me in the short time that I\u2019ve had to consider the bill is the phrase \u201Call reasonable steps\u201D. That\u2019s the test of action that must be taken by a party secretary or a candidate in determining whether a donation is legitimate, essentially. The Minister of Justice has done an extraordinary thing in outlining what he considers to be the case when it comes to considering what is a reasonable step. He said, \u201CWell, that relates to the amount of money, and, you know, you could make an argument along the lines of proportionality.\u201D Fine. But he actually went so far as to name a specific donor to another party\u2014my party, in fact\u2014and actually said that he would be directing his officials, or rather the Electoral Commission, I suppose, to consider more carefully than other cases whether or not it had breached the law. That\u2019s an extraordinary thing for a Minister of the Crown to do, at least one who is serious about maintaining separation of powers and not treading on the toes of those who have a quasi-judicial function. So that was very disappointing to hear said aloud in this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe final comment that I\u2019ll make within my allotted time is just around the onus about how certain one has to be about whether a donation is permissible or not. It\u2019s a pretty weak threshold, but nevertheless, there\u2019s enough in here that we can indicate we\u2019ll support throughout the day\u2019s proceedings, albeit that we\u2019re pretty outraged as to process. It\u2019s utterly inexplicable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00222570758ac892436fa1a2c9d53c0b71cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222570758ac892436fa1a2c9d53c0b71cc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022a65f4a004f324b5e9c4c03c4d86fb8d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a65f4a004f324b5e9c4c03c4d86fb8d0\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First): \u003C/span\u003EI rise on behalf of New Zealand First, who support this Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2) in dealing with this most serious of issues, the potential for foreign influence in funding New Zealand election campaigns. This is our democracy. New Zealanders should decide New Zealand elections, and there should be no room at all for outside interference, for it is us, and only us, that have skin in the game.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThe only outrage that I have with this process so far is the fact that there is any pushback at all, in the sense that foreign influence in our democracy has any place at all\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eac70a6f261c4e63af30d519e916382d\u0022\u003EChris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: How\u2019s your foundation looking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ff97a1aebf34e82b80291c27d9bb43f\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would remind you, Mr Penk, that there is only one party in this Parliament in front of the Serious Fraud Office for\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272021cc1432e4ce1b36cb0cf9bf2a12b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca56799224a7431c98e941d132f702a6\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014election irregularities and it is the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo this is an evolving issue. We are seeing this all around the world. In Australia at the moment, there are some serious allegations. We know that in the last United States elections, there were some very serious implications there, and Russian interference, potentially, in that election campaign. We are seeing this evolving around the world, and it is of great concern. We have heard some very serious allegations in our own democracy, from Professor Anne-Marie Brady of Canterbury University, who has come up, anecdotally, over some standover tactics, because she has stood up to try to expose some of the underlying influences that are potentially within our democracy. I commend her for everything that she is doing to expose some of those influences, because they have no place in New Zealand\u2019s democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EIn terms of the urgency, it is important that we get this through in good time. There is an election coming up. We have had a Justice Committee process that started in July of 2018. The wheels, the gears of that have ground very, very slowly. I\u2019m not on that committee to comment on why that is, but it does seem to be taking an extraordinary amount of time. So we need to get this lowest of the low-hanging fruit, this absolute no-brainer of taking foreign funding out of our electoral process, and get that under way as soon as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EMinister Little outlined why that was. He has implored the Justice Committee to bring that report back so we can go through this process in another way, but that has not happened, and he has taken action, and New Zealand First will support that. Of course, this bill does provide some certainty in that. You know, the election candidates are being announced now; they\u2019ll be out fundraising. They will now know that there will be a $50 limit. That\u2019s a de minimis amount that allows for things like raffle tickets or small gifts or donations. That is below any threshold that could imply any sort of influence, so we do support that. It does put the onus on party secretaries or general secretaries to be more accountable to the Electoral Commission, and it squarely outlines that line of command and responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EOf course, the process that the Justice Committee is going through is very, very important. It will look at wider reform. It will look at the local government situation that has been raised over the aisle. It will look at things like hacking. It will look at social media and influencing and disinformation that is becoming so prevalent through that forum. That is exacerbated by the breakdown of our traditional media as it struggles to compete for funding within this new paradigm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo we note that the Electoral Act 1993, that this bill amends, actually goes back to the 1956 Act. The MMP was, essentially, bolted on to that 1993 Act, so it\u2019s well out of its time in terms of how the modern world works. It is well past time that we had a root-and-branch overhaul, and this, as I say, is the lowest of the low-hanging fruit, this foreign donations part of that reform process. New Zealand First has absolutely no reservations at all in bringing in measures that protect New Zealand democracy for New Zealanders and New Zealanders only. So New Zealand First will be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bafb6055359148629a93e6ca16c60f54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bafb6055359148629a93e6ca16c60f54\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E National supports the small, incredibly incremental, change that this bill proposes. Let\u2019s be clear for those who may have tuned into Parliament, having read headlines today that Andrew Little is banning foreign donations. Let\u2019s be clear what this bill actually does when you look past the overblown PR, because, actually, in New Zealand right now, there is already a limit on foreign actors making donations to New Zealand political parties or campaigns. The threshold is currently $1,500, and this bill reduces that threshold to $50 dollars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo National has no issue in supporting that, because we think that anyone making a contribution of $70, $80, $100, who\u2019s foreign-backed should not be able to do that. We\u2019re happy to support that. But let us be clear that this bill does not address the significant issues that have been raised by many in New Zealand relating to the potential for foreign States to influence our democratic process. To claim otherwise is disingenuous and, frankly, accepts that the New Zealand public are not going to see through this. It actually proposes to pull the wool over the eyes of New Zealanders, and I think that it is a sham in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWe then come to the question: why is this bill being passed in urgency? While National supports the small measures contained in this bill, we absolutely do not accept that passing it in urgency is going to create good results for our democracy or, indeed, is good lawmaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI want to give you a sense of the way in which this bill was introduced. We sat in caucus today and watched at about 11 o\u2019clock as people started coming and going from the room. And we thought, \u201CWell, what is this? What major event has happened in New Zealand?\u201D And then we\u2019re told, \u201COh, look, the Government\u2019s introducing a bill under urgency to address electoral law matters.\u201D I will admit that when I heard that, I thought, \u201CGosh, this must be significant. Maybe this relates to the New Zealand First Foundation. Maybe this actually relates to some corrupt practices that could have been occurring somewhere. Maybe this relates to the Prime Minister deciding to be strong and doing something about Winston Peters and the way that that party has been conducting itself with respect to political donations.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EBut no, what we heard was, in fact, the reason why a bill was being introduced with no consultation, no prior briefing\u2014it was going to be passed through all stages under urgency, with no opportunity for public submission, no opportunity for expert analysis, no opportunity for select committee scrutiny, not even the opportunity for electoral law experts to give it a pass\u2014was because we needed to lower the threshold from $1,500 to $50. That is poor lawmaking, and it is an embarrassment that members opposite are trying to claim that it is justified because it\u2019s somehow some big, new ban.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s address the questions that this bill leaves unanswered\u2014we\u2019ve had some of these raised already. First of all, you\u2019ve got this idea that it leaves out local government altogether. Well, why is that? Second of all, it leaves open the very real risk that foreign States could circumvent these measures by providing donations through a New Zealand - based resident or company. There is nothing to stop, in this bill, a foreign State making a significant contribution to the New Zealand First Foundation. There is nothing in this bill to stop that. I think New Zealanders would be interested to know that the Minister of Justice is happy to stand up and say he\u2019s banning foreign donations, but does nothing in this bill to address that very real risk. There is nothing in this bill to deal with foreign donations to groups that are campaigning for one side or another in a referendum. So we could, potentially, in next year\u2019s election, have the situation where foreign actors are donating to campaigns about the cannabis referendum or about the end of life choice referendum, and this bill won\u2019t touch them\u2014it won\u2019t touch them in any way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThis bill doesn\u2019t deal with the fact that a foreign actor could still make an anonymous donation of up to $1,500. No, that\u2019s not contained either. This bill leaves open more questions than it answers, and yet the opportunity for Parliament to suggest to the Minister areas where it could be improved, areas where it could be tightened, additional clauses that could be added, is being completely run roughshod over because of the urgency that is being given to this legislation. It is being put through in an accelerated, shoddy way, and unnecessarily so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EYou\u2019d ask yourself, \u201CWell, maybe this does need to be done urgently because we need to act to stop these donations happening tomorrow.\u201D But you\u2019d be wrong, because, actually, this bill doesn\u2019t come into effect until 1 January. In fact, some of the clauses in this bill don\u2019t come into effect until April next year. So there is absolutely nothing to stop Minister Andrew Little giving a select committee an opportunity for a week or two weeks to get submissions from the public and to ensure that this is good lawmaking, but he is choosing not to do that. Mark my words, there will continue to be questions raised about foreign actors influencing our democracy and being able to do it within the law for so long as this bill exists in this form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThis bill will not prevent the question of whether or not foreign actors are influencing our democracy. Minister Little had an opportunity to engage with National in good faith on this issue. We have stated clearly our interest in ensuring that foreign actors do not unduly influence our democracy. This is an interest that members on all sides of this House should hold, because, actually, we hold dear the idea that New Zealanders decide how our Governments are run, New Zealanders decide who is voted for, and New Zealanders decide how an election should be influenced. But no, Minister Little has foregone the opportunity to reach a consensus on this issue, and, instead, has put forward a shoddy, tiny, little bill that goes nowhere near to resolving the genuine issues at stake here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI would go so far as to say that this bill is window dressing that takes the New Zealand public for fools. What it is is a bill that\u2019s designed to get the headline but isn\u2019t designed to address the real problem. And isn\u2019t that Labour summed up\u2014that it\u2019s more important to be seen to be doing something than it is to actually address the root cause of an issue? Members opposite should be asking themselves, \u201CIf I really care about foreign influence in an election, should I maybe be asking Andrew Little whether we just taihoa here and we open this bill up for just a few submissions?\u201D Right now, I know that there are academics just up the hill at Victoria University. If they were asked to put in a submission tomorrow, they\u2019d get it done. There are academics at Otago University, Auckland University, and there are people acting within our legal profession who would happily submit to this in a quick, and efficient, and professional manner. And you know what? I trust that they would come up with ideas that could be worthy of passing through this Parliament. But no, they have been denied. They have been denied because the Government has chosen to put through this window dressing bill under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s this idea of being clever at politics; clever it somehow making it seem as if National is for foreign donations. Well, no, that is not the case. We accept that lowering the threshold is a good idea. We don\u2019t want to keep the threshold as it is, but we think that this bill could be a lot better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ELabour\u2019s starting to get a track record when it comes to this sort of legislation. We had the waka jumping bill, we\u2019ve had the Referendums Framework Bill, we\u2019ve had the Electoral Amendment Bill. In all of those cases, what happens is the Minister arrogantly becomes impatient and decides it\u2019s more important to be politically expedient than it is to make durable law based on a bipartisan consensus. I am worried about that, because when I came into this House, I came with a very clear view that everyone here in Parliament comes with a genuine desire to do what\u2019s right for our country and to be involved in good lawmaking, and this is not good lawmaking. This is lawmaking that we should all be embarrassed about, because, actually, it denies New Zealanders the opportunity to make good suggestions. It denies opponents the opportunity to be heard, and, frankly, it doesn\u2019t go to the nub of the issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThis is a small bill. The PR about it is completely overblown. There is no rationale for urgency. It leaves many, many unanswered questions. The Minister has refused to engage. This is window dressing at its worst, and members opposite should be ashamed. But National, because we are cooperative and because we believe in ensuring there isn\u2019t foreign influence on our democracy, will support these changes while continuing to oppose the urgency through which this is being passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc8451022f5f45b19cd79168d065ada0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc8451022f5f45b19cd79168d065ada0\u0022\u003EMARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare. The Green Party are very clear that we need to fight strong and long for a democracy and a public decision-making process that people with a connection to New Zealand can absolutely trust, that people can feel confident is here for the will of the people of our country. So the Green Party welcomes and supports the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2); the changes that we are making to ban overseas donations in our electoral processes. I note that this proposal is to pertain to our general elections and not our local government elections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo, firstly, just to put on the record from the Green Party perspective, what this bill actually is\u2014and the main focus that I think we are debating here today is the amendment to the Electoral Act 1993, which will restrict donations from overseas persons to both political parties and individual candidates, to reduce the risk of any overseas money, any overseas influence in our domestic election processes. So in this bill, it is proposed that candidates and party secretaries\u2014those responsible for keeping good records and good authority processes around all of our political donations\u2014are required to take all reasonable steps to satisfy themselves that a donation over $50 is not from an overseas person. I do actually acknowledge that the Minister himself, in introducing this bill into the House today, was clear that this is only the start, and that further work needs to be done. I am very clear, and pleased, that the Minister himself relayed that to be able to make sure that this is a strong process, there will be further work that needs to be identified across our electoral system\u2014including in the process for identifying overseas donations. So he has put that understanding on the floor, and I wanted to make sure that we acknowledged that once again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EFor some time now around the world, and certainly here in our own country, public confidence and trust in our democratic processes has been waning. We need to have the public interest of the people who are connected to this country at the heart of every decision that we are making, rather than any overseas interests or influence or advocacy, and so, again, that\u2019s really leaning into why the Greens are strong in our support of this bill. Now, we\u2019ve still got a ways to go in terms of having a system that all people can trust, having governance in this House of Representatives that all people can trust in terms of elections. We do still have political disengagement here and around the world when it comes to that confidence in our democracy, and that political disengagement serves elite power and serves elite influence in our decision-making processes. So, again, this is a really strong message from the Green Party on why we are clear in our support for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThis does need to be only the start of a raft of changes\u2014for example, further measures to ensure equal access and to ensure that every individual, every person, who is able to vote, to engage in democratic processes, feels that they have got as much chance, as much influence, as every other person in this country, and, certainly, more influence than any overseas interests. So we have put this on record for the whole of this term, and we have worked closely with the Minister around making sure that we are also implementing the rest of the 2012 MMP review recommendations. We would also like to see a reduction in the current anonymity threshold for all donations. We have actually put on the floor, on the Table, that we would like to see a cap on all donations as well. I merely add those to this first reading debate to emphasise, again, our enthusiasm, our determination for ensuring that we have a system we can trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI wanted to pick up on the time restraints that were identified by officials, that we need to start getting these changes put into place before the 2020 election, and that it is essential that we are giving parties, the electoral systems, the authorities involved, and our own political system enough time to be able to make sure that we have got these changes\u2014that we\u2019ve got the system set up to be able to take on board a ban on overseas donations and, again, a raft of other measures that need to be put into place as well. So I understand and accept and hear the justification that has been given to make sure that we get these changes through, to get us towards a better engagement, a better public confidence in our system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThe impact summary: I did want to pick up on\u2014and other members have raised\u2014the fact that there may still be a risk that foreign States could circumvent any new rules that ban overseas donations by going through a third party or by going through a New Zealand - based person instead. And so I acknowledge that that needs to be addressed, that we need to not create unintended consequences through laws like these, that we need to close up those loopholes. I acknowledge, in the time constraints that have been identified in the impact summary, that we haven\u2019t yet been able to address those. But it is clear that, again, the Minister himself is aware, and we need to mitigate those. There was that risk, and there was another one which, I think, was around someone donating wholly to just any third party or New Zealand - based person\u2014that was the other thing that I wanted to raise. I do actually acknowledge that there are what I would say are valid concerns, and the Green Party is interested in making sure that we are quite tight in the loopholes and the electoral systems that we want to set up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThere was one further point that I wanted to make. The candidate and party secretaries are being required to take all reasonable steps\u2014and I think the Minister, again, put a case example on the floor today. I\u2019m open to looking further into what the actual definition of \u201Creasonable steps\u201D is, and satisfying a process that a donation of over $50 has not come from an overseas person. I do want to listen to the rest of the debate and take on board the rest of this urgency debate today around strengthening\u2014thoughts as to how we can make sure that we\u2019ve got a strong enough system in place for taking reasonable steps, and satisfying ourselves that those donations are not from an overseas person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo, once again, to close, it is of the utmost importance for us to be working together to address the big crises that are facing the future of our world, and the big issues that we are going to have to work together on. It is in the utmost interests for all of us to have a strong, transparent, and equal-access democratic system. This is absolutely vital\u2014to ban overseas donations. This is a start, and I look forward to continuing to work on a raft of other measures that should also be considered. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00221e24cc38190b4f15a6c44ec1093dbeca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e24cc38190b4f15a6c44ec1093dbeca\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare. I won\u2019t take a large amount of time in the debate this evening, but it is something that I have become aware of and that I think we are becoming increasingly aware of. Information and evidence has come to light that there has been political international interference, foreign interference, in elections and things that we have been seeing happening around the world. I was fortunate, actually, to sit on the Justice Committee a couple of times during their inquiry into the general election and also the local body elections, and it was a point that was raised in that process. I\u2019m not a permanent member of that committee, but for me it was very alarming, and so I\u2019m really pleased to see that this measure is being taken by the Minister of Justice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216ca7d776bc24f658a64b6db513f09f9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It exempts local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c63b3efa98c4166aa65ac11b8c37aa8\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not saying that it relates to local government. What I am saying is that I am pleased that the Minister is taking action, in time for the election next year, to try and put in place measures that are going to limit the potential for that international foreign political interference in our election next year, and I think it is commendable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ELike we have heard in the House already tonight, the Minister has indicated that this is a first step that we are taking\u2014that there are other areas that we want to look at. I am particularly concerned around social media and around hacks. But in terms of this, there\u2019s been focus on the amount of money, and particularly the financial interference, but there are actually other measures in here in terms of the promotion of material around election time, and a new requirement to disclose who has sponsored that and where they come from. I have seen in processes already that have come before Parliament that there has been international financial backing of advertisements in our subcommittee processes. So I think that we are able to take some steps immediately that will be able to come into effect and allow the Electoral Commission to put the procedures and the necessary mechanisms in place prior to our election next year, and that is commendable and absolutely something that we should be doing right here and now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI also believe that the bill introduces a stronger positive duty on candidates and on secretaries, requiring them to take steps to satisfy themselves that donations over $50 are not from an overseas person\u2014a positive obligation on candidates and on party secretaries to make sure that we are doing due diligence, taking all reasonable steps to identify that. I think that it\u2019s important that we have that obligation within the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister indicated in his speech in opening up the debate on this bill that he looks forward to the Justice Committee\u2019s report back on foreign interference into our electoral system, and with great interest. It says there that it\u2019s likely to cover a whole range of issues, like hacking, social media influence, and disinformation. If we look to Australia and to the United States and also around Brexit, there is evidence that this has been an issue, so if there are any measures that we can take now to ensure that we have the best possible and fairest election next year, then we should be. I hope that that report from the Justice Committee, completing that inquiry, is forthcoming and we are able to take further steps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I am heartened by is the Minister\u2019s indication that we need to do a comprehensive review of the Electoral Act\u2014that it is overdue and that that is something that could happen after the 2020 election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWith that, I actually took longer than I thought, but I am quite passionate about this, and so I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00223a621f417731442a91dd11330578e39b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a621f417731442a91dd11330578e39b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, we\u2019re on a split call. This is call No. 9\u2014or do the whips have some information for me? OK, well, obviously not. I\u2019ll make the call. This is a split call\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00225db2d7016b89424c8a4a869ab39fb10e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225db2d7016b89424c8a4a869ab39fb10e\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019ll try and make it a good five minutes, Mr Speaker. Look, I think Henry Cooke\u2019s article this afternoon sums up this bill: \u201Cgood politics, terrible lawmaking\u201D\u2014good politics, terrible lawmaking. The spin this morning\u2014in fact, the press release from Andrew Little says, \u201CGovernment moves to ban foreign donations\u201D. Oh, man, that\u2019s pretty big. I sat there in caucus and the news came through, and I thought \u201COh, that\u2019s pretty big.\u201D Except it doesn\u2019t ban foreign donations; it lowers the threshold from $1,500\u2014which is actually small to start with\u2014to $50. So right from the start, the Government has just been enveloped in spin, as my colleague Dr Nick Smith says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EActually, it\u2019s a lot like other press releases the Government puts out: \u201C$400 million for State schools\u201D\u2014side note: not if you\u2019re State-integrated; you don\u2019t get anything. \u201CGovernment bans semi-automatic weapons\u201D\u2014except only over a certain calibre and only over a certain size and only a certain number and we\u2019ll buy back the rest. So there\u2019s a lot of spin\u2014a lot of spin. These guys are masters at it. So the bill doesn\u2019t actually do what it says on the tin. We are supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the urgency. There is no justification for this urgency\u2014none whatsoever. We\u2019re in a three-week sitting period. As Graeme Edgeler has pointed out, he could turn up tomorrow morning at the Finance and Expenditure Committee, if they don\u2019t want to send it to the Justice Committee. They could turn up tomorrow at the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and Graeme Edgeler would be there, noted scholar that he is, and he\u2019d point out the flaws and he\u2019d point out the amendments that need to be made. Their heads are down over there because they know that there is no justification for this. Even with the gun laws post-Christchurch, when people wanted to act in haste and send a message to the world that we were going to get these guns out of the hands of New Zealanders, that went to the Finance and Expenditure Committee for a week. I sat on that committee. You can do a lot in a week. There is no justification for not sending this bill to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, there is a case for urgency. Parliament sat after the 2008 election and we repealed the obligation on fuel companies to offer biofuels in petrol. Why did we do that? Well, because the obligation came into effect three weeks later and Parliament was about to rise for the year. The Government had campaigned on repealing that and we did. We acted under urgency. There is no justification for urgency for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMembers opposite have been keen to complain about the select committee process. Let\u2019s be honest with what\u2019s happened here. A select committee, the Justice Committee, has been considering the local government election inquiry from 2016\u2014that\u2019s a hang-over from the last Parliament. They\u2019ve been considering the 2017 election inquiry, and the remit of the committee got widened a few months in\u2014some months in, actually\u2014to consider foreign interference. Now, there is a lot of stuff within those three different elements, and, yes, the committee has taken a long time. I sat on the committee for quite a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis is complicated stuff, and, frankly, let\u2019s be honest with what\u2019s happened here: Andrew Little has had a tantrum, OK? The Minister has had a tantrum\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b5c6605da41429783323bc7cc8cead8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Another one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022369a2c7766a94b20860e92de35b8941d\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014another one\u2014and decided, \u201COh, forget the committee, forget the consultation with the Opposition; I\u2019m just going to ram something through. I can turn up, announce the bill in the middle of caucus meetings and see if we can take them by surprise and get the New Zealand First Foundation stuff off the front pages and off the headlines, and we can talk about banning foreign donations. I can make all these thinly veiled attempts at implying the National Party gets all this foreign money, and things will be great.\u201D That\u2019s what\u2019s happened. We all know that\u2019s exactly why we\u2019re here. We all know that\u2019s why we\u2019re sitting here in urgency. We\u2019re going to ram it through under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFrankly, for the Green Party, who voted for urgency\u2014I note Marama Davidson spent her entire speech talking about everything other than urgency. The Green Party spent nine years, when National was in Government, hectoring the Government, calling them dictators and fascists and all the rest of it for using urgency\u2014which, actually, most of the time was highly justified. Now we find the Green Party is willing to collaborate with a Government that is desperate to talk about anything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis is yet another bill where the Government has not consulted with the Opposition. Firstly, we had waka-jumping. Then we\u2019ve had the next electoral bill, which introduced the same-day voting. We\u2019ve had the referendum bill. We\u2019ve got another one coming on prisoner voting, apparently, and now we\u2019ve got this one. The Minister is all over the show\u2014five amendment bills to the Electoral Act or to various elements of our constitution and he hasn\u2019t bothered to consult with the Opposition. It is a disgrace. He is massively out of his depth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022c57fdca6039a4f62b44942bff41b77e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c57fdca6039a4f62b44942bff41b77e7\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (Third Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We have a situation where, unfortunately, we didn\u2019t take the previous call. But as you are aware, regardless, the proportionality determines that we get a set number of calls. Now, in this instance, you have ruled that it is a split call. I propose what we do is follow the ruling, Speaker\u2019s ruling 48/3, which states \u201CActually, when it is a split call, it is an unusual arrangement. That is, the member can speak for as long as he wants \u2026 for up to 10 minutes, and then the next speaker gets the balance of the time.\u201D So Mr Bishop\u2019s time, whilst you put five minutes on the clock, has not actually expired. That was a ruling by Speaker Mallard, actually. So he could continue for the full 10 minutes, which is what I propose he does in this instance, and then we make the next call a split call, which returns to the proportionality we should have had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3be8935d7b04631bded4d49ffad76eb\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee983d6791504166a246759082a13f75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee983d6791504166a246759082a13f75\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t need any help, thank you. I made a ruling at the beginning of the call, and I\u2019m going to stick to that. As far as I\u2019m concerned we\u2019re on call No. 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7043b7c4d0248e5885f4d638cb88816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7043b7c4d0248e5885f4d638cb88816\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (Third Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The previous call is not finished, because, as a Speaker\u2019s ruling clearly states, that speaker on the first part of the split can talk for as long as he likes up to 10 minutes. Mr Bishop has not finished talking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2ff35469f67403381e94ab8eecaca63\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: And as I\u2019ve already said, I made that determination at the beginning of the previous call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224823390362c4418da22e73d25c0d5e55\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I accept that you determined it was a split call, but he has not finished his portion of the split.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271364e67b72e4488928b86c954500525\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022069e8ffe11d7445482e9b9892585c708\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, are you overruling the previous Speaker\u2019s ruling, because it\u2019s very clear: Speaker\u2019s ruling 48/3 states that he can speak for up to 10 minutes if he wishes, at which time he sits down. The second part of the split call may\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f29fdcc6af124c058d9676c1f7404bac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f29fdcc6af124c058d9676c1f7404bac\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: We are on call No. 10 and if Mr David Seymour would like to have that call he can have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002243fbb0eb47644a04a453541ae5b713d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243fbb0eb47644a04a453541ae5b713d5\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In the spirit of trying to assist, what you are saying and what Mr van de Molen is saying are completely consistent. Yes, indeed, you did rule that it was a split call. However, what Mr van de Molen is pointing out\u2014a very arcane part of the Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 rulings\u2014is that actually the first member who has a split call technically is allowed to speak for as long as they like, leaving the balance. So there\u2019s nothing inconsistent with you now allowing Mr Bishop to continue speaking even though that doesn\u2019t really help me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002254767afeb56c4dc2a2fc45228306f2dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254767afeb56c4dc2a2fc45228306f2dc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: My ruling is that call No. 8 was missed. Willow-Jean Prime had the first\u2014[Interruption] Yes, I\u2019ll stand up then. Willow-Jean Prime had the first part of call No. 9; Chris Bishop had the second part. We are now on what would have been call No. 10. We have one 10-minute speech in balance. I asked at the beginning of that if the whips had any information for me. Neither of them did and neither has come to see me to ask or to inform me what your decision is. So after that, there is a 10-minute speech. I suggest you sort out who\u2019s giving it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca9afb24c82549f1b7baa775c5cbe884\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca9afb24c82549f1b7baa775c5cbe884\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Does your ruling now mean that the Speaker has to be informed every time someone is taking a speech when there has been a decision that split speeches can be taken? The rules up to this point have been, as my colleague Mr van de Molen has pointed out, that a split speech means that the first speaker can speak for as long as they like within the allocated 10 minutes, up to 10 minutes; and that the second part of the speech is the balance of any of the 10 minutes that might be remaining. Are you also ruling that a split speech now is strictly five minutes?\u2014because these are new rules and we need to know exactly how we\u2019re operating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1fa949350864608947bcfe4e7193123\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1fa949350864608947bcfe4e7193123\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m ruling that I asked for advice from both whips at the beginning, neither of which gave them to me, so I made the decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa783acc21ef402da9b0150a1a502029\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa783acc21ef402da9b0150a1a502029\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (Third Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Respectfully, I did suggest that this was a 10-minute call for Mr Bishop\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa68df1130924dd3bca9d0b6737c4093\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: You did not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022805a876b3eee4515bef98d9acf625166\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and you did not at any time of Ms Prime\u2019s call suggest that that was a split call. So you indicated at the start of Mr Bishop\u2019s call, after you didn\u2019t feel there was a clear consensus between the Labour whip and myself, that that was to be a split call\u2014not that that was the second half of the previous call. It was very clear, actually, that the previous call had been a 10-minute call and it was only the start of this one that commenced the split call, which enabled him to then continue for 10 minutes. Now, I don\u2019t want to see the convention we have, where we each take a five-minute split call, change, but in this instance, due to the order of not taking that previous call, Ms Prime stood up and took it. We\u2019re still entitled\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b218c6a78b947b595adc6a8d6d14f6e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think you\u2019ve\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c9ecb346e0e499c8b852cdfc0a7cbc4\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014based on proportionality to our full allocation of calls. Now, there are numerous ways we could do it. What I was proposing is to split that and, to keep it in line with what we should have, was to merely allow Mr Bishop to continue for 10 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e7d31f57b74c158022981427424e7d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002238276c3c550e4a53be24c6a886d8ae1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238276c3c550e4a53be24c6a886d8ae1d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014look, the Standing Order says that there are 12 10-minute calls, OK? And as I\u2019ve indicated before, there was one missed call. That call\u2019s still there. I\u2019m saying to both sides, please sort out\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a45fe9734204fadae4dc2763bc8b164\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, what was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c11e7b532d44a8eb2a8e60cf51e5b07\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s one that was not taken. That was call No. 8. That call is still there and still available because we have not yet taken it. So what I\u2019m asking you\u2014[Interruption]\u2014I\u2019m asking you to sort out what you want to do between both sides of the House to determine who is taking that call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228b2dd67774a44cfdb9df3c3734b0f40d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b2dd67774a44cfdb9df3c3734b0f40d\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the whole point of order, that is one issue, but it doesn\u2019t solve the issue that we\u2019re trying to work through at the moment, which appears to be an overruling of Speaker\u2019s ruling 48/3: Assistant Speaker Mallard at the time saying, \u201CActually when it is a split call, it\u2019s an unusual arrangement. That is, the member can speak for as long as he wants\u201D\u2014and presumably \u201Cshe\u201D\u2014\u201Cfor up to 10 minutes, and then the next speaker gets the balance of the time.\u201D that is unused inside that 10 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229371c74d11204822ab4aadf60494b6fd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: And the problem is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4786c9ebfae48209d866eb93dbde69c\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: And all we\u2019re saying is that, as the first speaker, Mr Bishop could use up to 10 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e92c868e89004ae9978a6f1b07fce1df\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as far as I\u2019m concerned, he was the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dc1b62d1d9341bc96a296278b348339\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: That would still leave\u2014if you don\u2019t mind, sir, that would still leave one 10-minute block unused, and that should be allocated proportionately, which would mean, in fact, the National Party gets another five-minute speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f55c6f6a1bbf41d88043a22c2c7325c1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: In my opinion, he was the second speaker. The first five-minute speech was from Willow-Jean Prime; he was the second.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d3883ec5e88421fa469a2e10014243f\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: That is a completely unreasonable position to take, because speech time in this House is allocated proportionately to parties. And to suggest that somehow we are splitting a speech with the Labour Party is completely unreasonable. It is totally new, and it is something that simply cannot endure either in Speakers\u2019 rulings or, for that matter, in the Standing Orders. The only way through this is to accept the standard convention, which was articulated by Assistant Speaker Mallard in 2017: allow Mr Bishop to finish his 10-minute contribution, and if there is any remaining space, then that would be openly apportioned between the parties in the House on a proportional basis. We do everything on a proportional basis. Questions are allocated on a proportional basis, places on select committees are allocated on a proportional basis, and speaking times in this House are allocated on a proportional basis. We cannot have a ruling that upsets that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbab900051ac41b583b37eee378ee6b5\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022989862220c11430ab82123a743fa1b01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022989862220c11430ab82123a743fa1b01\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m going to deal with this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224486527649844c7b668075f1e01f418\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Speaker, I may be able to help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b553a4eca3174fee90847ff7443e7e17\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019ll deal with one point of order at a time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022928a651e21c74e71b64ff1431c201f1d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re related, honestly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022762ff5b50a5a486da0517012eaf8b835\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m going to deal with one point of order at a time. Thank you. There are four 10-minute speeches. We\u2019ve had\u2014yeah, we\u2019ve got four 10-minute speeches left, OK? Now, we can deal with the proportionality for those speeches. All members have to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2a9193b58654f93b9785619abb3ed26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2a9193b58654f93b9785619abb3ed26\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E No one\u2019s arguing that\u2014right? We\u2019re arguing, firstly, if that is conceded that is a great thing, so let\u2019s deal with that. We\u2019re not upsetting proportionality if that is from this point on. The problem is that you\u2019ve asked us to accept that Mr Bishop\u2019s contribution has to be split with a Labour member. We don\u2019t accept that; the 10-minute block belonged to the National Party. If we choose to have Mr Bishop speak for nine minutes and 30 seconds and one other member from this side of the House stand up for 30 seconds, so be it. That\u2019s what the rules allow. That\u2019s what we started the debate with. Changing the rules part way through\u2014and permanently, it would seem, as a ruling for the whole House\u2014is completely unreasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022aec4e01503d54364ac54f5433a448521\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aec4e01503d54364ac54f5433a448521\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with the first part of your statement, Mr Brownlee. That\u2019s not the issue in this case. It\u2019s the fact that a member was supposed to be on call No. 8. It was not taken so I went to call No. 9. That\u2019s the issue. Proportionality isn\u2019t going to change. We\u2019ve got four 10-minute calls left and it\u2019s up to the members to decide how that\u2019s going to work out. It\u2019s not my fault that, for whatever reason, members didn\u2019t stand to take the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e08be0fee9464f3ba79998389cebbab6\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244100936081e4b6e9ee8c085ff393c52\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b5cfab574f448418a7f83dc9303296e\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I was first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241139ec3b4864f3c95cce763a6cf904a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: It is now 6 p.m. It has actually come time for me to leave the Chair. You\u2019re going to have to raise those issues after the dinner break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0efcfe972a6429e8f15b7dd608d3aec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0efcfe972a6429e8f15b7dd608d3aec\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House has resumed. Colleagues, before the dinner break we were debating the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2), first reading. I understand that peace and goodwill has broken out across the House during the dinner break, and we now have call No. 10, which is a split call. I call David Seymour. It\u2019s a five-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002241fb8bdcee11402eb739fa1a7bbaebf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241fb8bdcee11402eb739fa1a7bbaebf9\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2) could be better named the \u201CWhisky Tango Foxtrot Bill\u201D. It is an indulgence in the politics of pantomime. It is pantomime politics; huge amounts of drama and theatrics for very little purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe Government is putting the House into urgency tonight in order to pass a bill that it has claimed bans foreign donations. Well, that\u2019s the first big problem with this bill. It does nothing of the sort. It doesn\u2019t change the definition of an overseas person. It doesn\u2019t change the definition of an overseas donation, except for one little thing. It says the threshold for declaring an overseas donation and giving up all the money above that threshold is going from $1,500 down to $50. That\u2019s the only change being made in this bill tonight. It is a meaningless change, and the reason for that is that it is totally impractical to enforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ELet me give you the example of the ACT Party. Now, I asked our party secretary and she said today the ACT Party has received 11 donations of over $50, just a standard day on the website. People come along, they give us money because they like what we stand for. The bill requires that they take all reasonable steps to work out where those people live, those people who have made online donations. What does all reasonable steps actually mean? Do we need to hire a forensic accountant to find out where those people really live? Or is it enough just to put a notification on our website saying that they shouldn\u2019t lie? And if we are suspecting that maybe people are hiding their identity, what\u2019s the remedy and what\u2019s the punishment? The truth is that it is completely meaningless, because such a large volume of donations are such that it will be impossible for anybody to truly enforce this change from $1,500 down to $50.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd another mystery is: why would the Government do this? The fact of the matter is that it is simply a matter of politics. This Government has run out of ideas and they thought that doing something dramatic, putting Parliament into urgency and going after something that nobody likes, such as electoral donations from foreigners, would get them a good cycle in the headlines, better than the 24 hours they had beforehand, where they\u2019re behind in the polls and where they\u2019re losing data all over the show. The fact of the matter is that they did this because they thought it would give them a sugar hit in the press.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut the great irony is, not only is it ineffective, not only will it never be practical to be enforced but, ironically, a bill to try and defend the democratic rights of New Zealanders is being passed under urgency, with no need whatsoever, and this is excluding New Zealanders from being able to make a contribution through the select committee process, which is what normally happens when New Zealanders engage in the democratic process. So you have a bill that\u2019s supposed to be defending democracy being rammed through for no reason, for no immediate cause of urgency, and excluding New Zealanders from participating in democracy in the name of defending New Zealand democracy. How crazy is that? That\u2019s what this Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI hear from all around the House the plaintive cries from the Green Party, those great upholders of due process \u201CIt was so terrible when the previous Government used urgency.\u201D Today they\u2019re going along with this, and what do we hear? Not a peep. No principles in the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sorry to hear from my friends in the National Party, because I heard some very fine speeches made by the likes of Chris Bishop, and I thought he was going to vote against it. Well, I\u2019d say to my friends in the National Party, if it\u2019s such a bad bill and you don\u2019t agree with it, vote against it. Honestly, I\u2019m doing it. It\u2019s not that hard. If the National Party had the courage of their convictions they might be even further ahead of the Labour Party in the poll\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d949e37bb9cd4c77a381fb0e9adfa8fa\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e88428df56cc4120bcb38ba43e126b0d\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but instead the ACT Party stands alone for our democracy and due process in this Parliament, proudly opposing this political pantomime bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022d37eab1e409d4547b7d567ae72311a8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d37eab1e409d4547b7d567ae72311a8b\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m not going to take up too much time. I mean, this is a very, very simple bill; a bill that will be welcomed by New Zealanders because they have serious and justified and legitimate concerns around foreign intervention or the potential for foreign intervention in our democracy. And this bill is a very good first step in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI say it\u2019s a first step for very good reason\u2014because the Minister, in introducing this bill, made it very clear that after the 2020 election he intends to direct justice officials to review and modernise the entire Electoral Act. Now, we don\u2019t have time to do that between now and the next election. What would they say, I wonder, if we, today, proposed that we would do a full review knowing that there would not be any changes put in force before the next election. The message we would send to the people of this country is that we are happy with the current situation and the potential for foreign interference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is very simple; it reduces the prospect of it occurring. It allows for small donations so that people don\u2019t inadvertently get caught up if they put money into a bucket at a conference or something like that. But on the whole, it reduces the threshold so that people can have confidence in our regime going forward, knowing that there will be a review ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt never fails to amaze me the position that the National Party team seems to take, and David Seymour is exactly right. They stand up and they speak against the bill, and yet they say they\u2019re not going to oppose it, because they don\u2019t want to look like that they are on the side of foreign donations. But there is a very fine line to tread. The fact is that they can stand up and accuse this of being a rushed process, and then the next speaker stands up and says that it doesn\u2019t go far enough, etc., etc., etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b73f1cf0444f4a12b225c1be3352fe6f\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re not sure what they\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022132005ee5cb5445f9c2eb401898ea6f1\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: They are not sure what they are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut this Government is very sure what it\u2019s doing. There are some serious questions that need to be asked around foreign donations and how the whole Electoral Act stands moving forward. This Government will address that in due course. But, in the meantime, in order to get things in place and give parties enough time to have measures in place before the next election\u2014and I suppose, you could also argue, in order to stop a late-minute flurry of overseas donations while this goes through a long and drawn out process\u2014we are entirely justified in putting this through under urgency. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00225514ed968aab4954b7151a86740ee68a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225514ed968aab4954b7151a86740ee68a\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Before the dinner break we had a little kerfuffle in terms of who was supposed to take a call. There was a little confusion, because I was meant to have taken a very short call, but it seems I now have 10 minutes. I intend taking the full 10 minutes to lay down the reasons why I am in support of this legislation, in terms of the concept as to why there are some things that need working through. The concerns that many members in this House have raised in relation to foreign influence in our electoral process is something that I think all members have legitimate concerns about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EHaving said that, and before I actually get into that, I found it rather interesting that the member Mr McAnulty, who just took his seat, said that he was only taking a short call because it was a very good bill, but actually contradicted himself by saying that there are serious questions to be asked. If he believes that there are serious questions to be asked why did he not speak against the Minister when the Minister was actually proposing the rushed process of urgency in this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what this party, on this side of the House, is opposed to: the ramming down our throats of this legislation, which should have gone through due process in this House: a first reading, going to the public for their submissions, and a second reading. What is the Minister so concerned about with having the Electoral Commission come to this House to actually lay down some of the concerns that they may potentially have on this process? Well, apparently he\u2019s not very keen to listen to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI also listened to Marama Davidson when she spoke and said that public trust is waning in this country\u2014that is something that we should be concerned about as legislators. She also said that we have political distancing from the public because of the way that we run. I thought maybe that member Marama Davidson should be concerned about the rushed process as well. Earlier, another member\u2014I think it was David Seymour\u2014said it was the Green Party who constantly and continuously spoke against any urgency motion that the previous National Government had. They spoke up against it, and yet now when they are in bed with the Labour-led Government, they don\u2019t speak up. I have to say \u201CShame on you!\u201D, because, obviously, for them, principle does not mean that they actually keep to the principles\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232a5e8a693fd4b22b3b3cd9662d86e61\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Unprincipled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240e36e5559de43458fde1136354e7837\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that they believe in. They are absolutely unprincipled. I have to say, Marama Davidson, I am actually very ashamed of the way that the Green Party have gone through this process\u2014and I say \u201CShame on you!\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons why, I guess, many members are concerned is that all of us have actually seen different influences around the world, where the electoral process has been jaded, coloured, influenced by powers that be who wanted to influence a particular political party or the outcome of a legislative process. I think none of us as legislators wants that; we live in a democracy. I think we are very proud of New Zealand as one of the most transparent democracies in the world, but it was rather ironic to listen to a lecture in transparency by Clare Curran earlier, I have to say. It was rather ironic to listen to her talk about transparency, considering what transpired last year was not so transparent behaviour from that former Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ENational is supporting this legislation because it is the right thing to do, like most pieces of legislation that actually go through this House. But I want to know what damage\u2014what wrong\u2014is this Minister trying to do by rushing it through in an urgency motion where all of the processes of this House are being done in a rush. I don\u2019t know how long this is going to take, but I\u2019m guessing today and tomorrow, and there is no select committee process. You know, we support the idea of not having the wrong influences and limiting the donations of overseas people\u2014I mean, foreigners who perhaps want to influence different parties in this House. I think that\u2019s a good thing\u2014limit their influence, because we want to make laws for New Zealand. That\u2019s a good thing. But when we think that we\u2019re limiting that donation to $50\u2014why not just get rid of it? Why is there an arbitrary amount of just $50? This legislation does not actually prevent a foreign power from setting up a company, for example, being in this country\u2014not being a citizen or a resident\u2014and being able to donate to a political party. However, it actually prevents them from donating from overseas, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI haven\u2019t really given this much thought, but it could be my brother\u2014now living in the United States\u2014who might have wanted to donate to my campaign, but he can only donate $50 to me, because he\u2019s no longer a registered voter in New Zealand; he\u2019s been overseas for such a long time. He does now have dual citizenship. So, I guess, for all intents and purposes, he\u2019s actually an American citizen now unable to give me any money, apart from $50. I think there are so many New Zealanders who actually live overseas, who might want to legitimately participate in this process but are not able to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo in order to prevent foreign influence, they have limited the amount of money that foreign\u2014nobody wants a foreign Government to be influencing New Zealand\u2019s election; come on, we all agree on that. But what does limiting $1,500 to $50 actually achieve, and what does it achieve to do it in an urgency motion where we can\u2019t even get the public\u2019s view on this, or the Electoral Commission\u2019s view on this, or the view of anybody else who might have a decent thing to argue and give us a different perspective? Often that\u2019s what the select committee process is actually about. People come in and give us the reason why they might like the piece of legislation or they disagree with it, so that all the members of Parliament who are sitting in the select committee can listen to their reasoning. Sometimes some of those select committee submissions have been very helpful to me when I\u2019m making a decision in the process when we\u2019re actually making law in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EOne of the things, when we looked at the transparency\u2014and I quite like the idea that candidates and party secretaries are required to take all responsible steps to satisfy themselves that a donation over $50 is not from an overseas person. I don\u2019t know why that actually needs to be specified, because I think all of us as candidates, all of us as members of Parliament, are very careful as to who actually donates. I think we try very, very hard to make sure of that. Candidates and party secretaries will not be guilty of an illegal practice if they take reasonable steps, and I think that is a good thing. I think that\u2019s all that we can expect of candidates and party secretaries\u2014to do their very best to make sure\u2014you know, reasonable\u2014that there is transparency and that they\u2019re not taking donations from overseas entities that might want to perhaps influence, but I don\u2019t know how much $50 is going to make in terms of an influence there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I want to talk about is the transparency issue. You know, I think that all of us, when we get donations during an election campaign, when we have people who want to donate\u2014I have elderly ladies who actually want to support my campaign and write me a cheque for $100 or $50. There are so many people who give varied amounts of donations because they believe in the campaign that you are running. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EBut I just don\u2019t know what this process\u2014the urgency motion in this House\u2014is actually achieving. Why is there a need to rush through the process when there is really no urgent threat from an overseas entity? If the Minister knows there is an urgent threat happening, then maybe he should tell us what that urgent threat is and the reason why this legislation is being rushed through\u2014because, obviously, he knows something that we don\u2019t. Obviously, he\u2019s saying that there is an imminent threat. If there is an imminent threat, say it. Tell us what the imminent threat is, and we will support the process, as well as this legislation. But there is no imminent threat. This Minister hasn\u2019t given a reason why this piece to legislation has to be rushed through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EOur party is supporting this legislation because we believe in transparency; we believe that there should not be foreign\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002226e59ecf9b7c4b4582cf7d4db45a0bec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226e59ecf9b7c4b4582cf7d4db45a0bec\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00220f7b315dbdd146a0b731b7404ac350f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f7b315dbdd146a0b731b7404ac350f4\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m delighted to follow my very dear friend Melissa Lee MP. Could I say that if her brother is watching at the moment, now that he has found out that he can, sadly, no longer contribute to her election campaign because he\u2019s an American citizen, she is most deserving of a very generous Christmas present\u2014whether it\u2019s another lovely jacket, such as the one she\u2019s wearing tonight, or a delightful pair of shoes. I know that she\u2019d be very appreciative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI do want to just\u2014[Interruption] Goodness! It\u2019s very noisy. Clearly, the Labour Party enjoyed some refreshments over the dinner adjournment. I do want to draw attention to some of the contributions that we\u2019ve had. Before that excellent contribution from Melissa Lee, which brought to us some clarity and a clear definition of what this bill is about, we had a rather confusing contribution from Mr McAnulty. Trying to discern everything that he was saying has proven a little bit difficult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EHe did make the claim that the National Party seems to be at sixes and sevens because we\u2019re supporting the bill but we appear to be opposed to it. Well, I want to make it very clear, not only to Mr McAnulty but to everybody who may be listening. The National Party is supportive of this bill because we support its objectives. What we object to, however, is the process, and I\u2019ll come back to that in a moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EPrior to that, I enjoyed the entertaining if somewhat loud contribution of the member for Epsom, the leader of the ACT Party, who called on the National Party to have the \u201Ccourage of their convictions\u201D and vote against the bill. The thing that struck me as a bit odd about that is that, if you\u2019re going to have the courage of your convictions, it presumably means voting as you perceive an issue to direct that you should vote. Well, in this case I say to Mr Seymour that, unlike him, the National Party is supportive of the bill; therefore we will vote in favour of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EBut now let me get back to the more serious matter at hand, because I hope that it isn\u2019t just National and the sole ACT MP in the House tonight who object to the process. This is an important point because, frankly, the processes of the House are being abused tonight as we go through this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022889a04c3c2814f91bd1d3e3379fbbfb2\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct\u2014that\u2019s correct. Start with the Justice Committee\u2014talk about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b2a44d04ccc4826b943eb7ad7ca0f19\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: And I am delighted to hear that the Minister of Justice, who has introduced this bill under urgency, agrees that he is abusing the process. I\u2019m delighted that the Minister of Justice pleads guilty to abusing the Parliament of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWhen Mr Bishop spoke today he quoted Henry Cooke, the journalist, who said that this is good politics but terrible lawmaking, and that is absolutely on the point. He\u2019s summed it up to a T. In introducing the bill some hours ago now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e4f8c519c4a4a858d6a6c03fa987c86\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: You want to read the rest of the article\u2014it\u2019s not flattering about National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220291a49a54b54ce19d9cb03d61a0feb1\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the Minister, who seems incapable of sitting quietly and listening respectfully even though we listened to him respectfully when he was speaking, said\u2014I think I quote him correctly\u2014that this Government isn\u2019t prepared to dilly-dally and play games with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f80c8924e7a4c05bcbbd113a64de539\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270bedd8165bf4090a2a6544a7ef639e2\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: That is what he said? The Minister has just confirmed that that\u2019s what he said. Well, what a disingenuous joke that is from a Minister who knows that this bill enjoys cross-party support. So it\u2019s the Minister who\u2019s playing games and who, instead, should be ensuring that this bill goes through proper parliamentary process\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c80837709f344ef89f5d623b80c68e4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. What\u2019s he afraid of? What\u2019s he scared of?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258080237e6894fd28edc37b66447981e\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in particular, as my very good friend the learned member for Nelson is making the point, as this is an electoral measure, and electoral measures have, almost without exception\u2014the exceptions being usually when the Labour Party are in power\u2014enjoyed proper process, decent scrutiny, because they are very significant. Why is that? Well, it\u2019s because no Government, no parties in Government, should be looking to screw the scrum to their own advantage, and, unfortunately, we have here another example\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd848ddd572040b199cf9eb4ce891051\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: How is that screwing the scrum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c558cff0f8c7456aa9b5385f8bd6b941\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of the Labour Party, supported by the Minister for Children, who\u2019s interjecting shrilly at the moment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b3f70e92f004b9588fda1aa7044ab2e\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: How is that screwing the scrum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e96437b0db394835b069907fdc3293f5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about your foundation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d23b2d7dbdb49668c974039aa09ddc4\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Goodness me! The Minister for Children is even louder than the Minister of Justice. And I echo the request from the member for Nelson for the Minister for Children to tell us about the New Zealand First Foundation, because I suspect that the only party that has anything to fear from the passage of this bill would be New Zealand First. And, in recent days, they have failed to front up to the electorate and explain what is going on. It\u2019s a very murky picture that is emerging about the way the New Zealand First is funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022264ee79678d947588abd1391036a8915\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: What has that got to do with the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283e671c870cb41239cdba4265dcb7e05\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Goodness me! Minister Martin does seem to want to draw attention to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262133b605de74ebdacd3d7e3325db5f8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Come on; that\u2019s a barrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a20c22cda2b4934a135354a45de7c2e\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: It is. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I was feeling that way but I didn\u2019t want to complain in any way, but it has been a barrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI want to make the point, and it\u2019s a serious point, to the Minister of Justice, that he has not consulted with the Opposition, which would be one of the first things that any reasonable Minister would do in these circumstances. The second thing is\u2014and Dr Smith, I think, noted this in his speech prior to the dinner adjournment\u2014that this is the fourth time that Minister Little has done this. So it really is becoming a thorough abuse of democracy. And we saw a similar abuse of this Government\u2019s power, and of the Parliament by extension, in the middle of last year when they rammed through their deeply unpopular Auckland regional fuel tax under urgency. And who supported them at that time to do that? The Greens and New Zealand First, and the fascinating thing about that is that most of us with long memories can remember the honourable Green Party of 2000, under the leadership of Jeannette Fitzsimons and Rod Donald, who objected to the measure of the then Helen Clark - led Labour Government when they were ramming through their tariff bill under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWe can also remember the honourable Green Party of December 1999, who objected to an earlier version of the current waka-jumping bill. I think, at that time\u2014Dr Smith will probably correct me\u2014it was known as an \u201Canti-defection\u201D bill, and that was also rammed through under urgency. So what we have is a Green Party who are prepared to take a very pious stance against urgency whenever they\u2019re in Opposition, but the moment they get into Government they just kowtow to the Labour Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c695faba8ded42f696351ecfa180c789\u0022\u003EMarama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Go on, use up your speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022856e16181c174f84a80ff997511d6548\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and Marama Davidson is confirming at the moment that they\u2019re happy to do that. In other words, they rail against urgency if ever it\u2019s contemplated under a National Government. They say it\u2019s unprincipled, they thunder that it\u2019s unjustified, they piously proclaim that it\u2019s totally unprincipled. Well, that was then, and now, of course, it\u2019s all different. So let me remind Ms Davidson and her colleagues in the Green Party of a lovely little prayer that she might\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294abf03e58904d5cac9f7f5c63266918\u0022\u003EMarama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Two minutes and 30 seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c5a7611a7fc434185695ab932e8cbb1\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m glad that she\u2019s looking forward to the remaining two minutes and 30 seconds. There\u2019s a little prayer that she might like to utter, and it goes: \u201CLord, make my words sweet and tasty, for tomorrow I may have to eat them.\u201D And that seems to sum up the Green Party very, very well. Well, let me just remind her that the National Party is supporting this legislation because it\u2019s the right thing to do, but what we\u2019re saying is it should go through the proper process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWe already have limits on campaign donations. That\u2019s quite right; I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve heard any member of the House say that we shouldn\u2019t. And we have, in the National Party, signalled previously that we\u2019re prepared to strengthen them, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re supporting this bill. We\u2019ve indicated through the select committee process\u2014and I do want to acknowledge the leadership of Dr Nick Smith on the National Party side in the Justice Committee, as we\u2019ve had a very thorough examination of a whole range of issues arising through the Justice Committee\u2019s inquiry into the last general election. We have indicated that we are more than willing to deal with the issues of foreign interference, because they have become more and more\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022931091088cad4d1d9ee6b12709f508c1\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: No, you\u2019re not. No, you\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f7b43ac845e4c94b2e52cadce55ea53\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Now, here is the Minister of Justice saying no we haven\u2019t. Remind me, Minister, of when you sat on the select committee. Remind me of when you were in the room witnessing what was taking place, because I can tell you, despite the fact that you sit there pontificating and making accusations, you weren\u2019t there. The National Party has approached these issues in good faith, and we have been willing to work with the Government to achieve the right outcomes all the way along the line. And he can sit there and he can snort and he can shake his head; he wasn\u2019t there, he doesn\u2019t know, he\u2019s talking nonsense, he\u2019s being arrogant. We\u2019re saying we\u2019ll support this measure. He\u2019s saying, \u201CNo, no, I don\u2019t want your support. I\u2019m going to ram it through under urgency anyway.\u201D Well, that, Minister, is arrogant. That is obnoxious. That is an abuse of parliamentary process. Yes, I\u2019ve been in reasonably good spirits for most of the speech, but now you\u2019ve actually touched a nerve, because it\u2019s about time that this Minister realised that he can\u2019t just do everything his own way. There\u2019s a process to be followed, there\u2019s a constitution to be respected. This Minister should respect it. There is no need for urgency on this matter. He would have had the cooperation of all parties in the House, but instead he\u2019s saying, \u201COh no, to hell. Do it my way.\u201D Well, Minister, that\u2019s not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022e77da7b254954bea9e5e5388a39e749c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e77da7b254954bea9e5e5388a39e749c\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E E Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aef91039a6c46bd84a6560f58a5c65c\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Under pressure, Andrew?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022545716eae55e42c783b56af72bfa0b95\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Proper names, please\u2014even in interjections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cffa83a3059244179f2604690b54f68f\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me the opportunity to contribute to the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2) first reading. Can I please remind the House that in December 2018 the Minister of Justice, the Hon Andrew Little, wrote to the Justice Committee asking them to examine foreign interference in our electoral system. That\u2019s almost 12 months\u2014actually, we are in the month of December 2019. My point is that the Minister has actively raised an issue in the Justice Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f177942dc1e74f45a53bbe949a7f2ca5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227780090b2a9e460ab81904b80771fbc8\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c32f6c2d5c549f0aa4ade2667c1b30b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ced8a245693444b96292ed5044719f3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, we\u2019re actually in quite a difficult position in that the Justice Committee has had extensive evidence, correspondence, and advice to which the member is referring that is actually privileged to the committee. I actually think it would be helpful for the debate for all of the evidence associated with this very issue to be able to be debated with a bill that\u2019s under urgency. The member\u2019s comments are out of order in that they breach confidential correspondence of the committee. I don\u2019t want to hold her up, because I\u2019d much rather that we\u2019re quite open. I seek the leave of the House for all advice, reports, and minutes on the issue of foreign interference before the Justice Committee to be able to be referred to in the debate on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227304f7fd4a7c4e15817c79ff159595da\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I put the leave, I will seek some advice. I\u2019m sorry to hold you up. I\u2019m just checking. The House is the master of itself, but whether it can overrule a select committee is a point that I am getting checked by the Clerk. So I just ask for a little bit of patience while we just check that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f8bffb0783642309099d82a9f6cce21\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, could I also ask\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6589aee2de94aa68498be55aa5f164f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If it\u2019s going to be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242a56f02e84e4cedbb5e228cc57055c8\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, I would also encourage you to check whether, within that proposed remit from the Hon Dr Nick Smith, he is proposing that evidence that may have been heard in secret be disclosed to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243190511d0e94503a77ce23ac8b6dc99\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That is actually a very fair point of order. There was some evidence that was heard by the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service that should remain confidential. My point is that all the evidence that in the normal course of events would become public could be able to be referred to, which would be the minutes. It would be the submissions from officials. It would be the correspondence from the Minister of Justice to the select committee, which the member who spoke had referenced too. That would normally be privileged to the committee and not released until the select committee reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226de8f657d921462d99ef717e4ef0e34b\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, can I assist the House too. Given that this issue arose from a claim by the speaker on her feet, Meka Whaitiri, that there was correspondence from me, it is a matter of public record, and there have been many articles that I wrote to that committee asking them to inquire specifically into the issue of foreign donations, foreign interference, and foreign influence. The question of all the other evidence is not a matter of public record, but the fact that I wrote is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db61449fd0a64068b94bd15755552065\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can I speak further to the point of order, because it is relevant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bcb8a686c5f45feb54d353de90089a0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t really want to get into a debate. I was going to ask the member if the correspondence from the Minister was in the public arena, because it would be on the website, but we\u2019re sort of past that now with the member\u2014[Interruption] sit down, sit down\u2014seeking leave to publish all the documents, and I\u2019m just not sure that the House can overrule a select committee in that circumstance. I\u2019m just trying to get that now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6cda191b9ed481aa06dece2c41d732b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a classic example of the Minister\u2019s comments that have just been made that create a difficulty for the debate, because it was actually the Electoral Commission itself, in its advice to the committee, that sought we inquire into the issues of foreign interference prior to receiving the Minister\u2019s letter, and all that information is relevant to the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1172f39e81f473fa7e1be0280e806ff\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re now arguing for your leave. I am just waiting on some advice about the procedure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adb7576cae0146c6bba759897d4dbb6d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa956ebf460a451caba5c50cc6d2f489\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this going to be\u2014I don\u2019t want to hear any arguments for or against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022742d7c9a831542f48abb2f09e627248e\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it might be helpful to consider\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022583e3eac551e421db6a5d859a74ba6fb\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You all have this strange idea of what\u2019s going to be helpful to me. Go on, then\u2014go on, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022054eb05b22954946be4d26417cc882c7\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that one of the implications of the leave that Dr Smith is seeking is that, in effect, the private deliberations of that select committee would be brought forward. I think it\u2019s bad enough that we\u2019re sitting under urgency on this; it would be worse to undermine the genuine, considered process that\u2019s going on at the committee at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257b7a61d299f46f79162bd203fdc08dd\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Which is exactly why I was taking the time to get some advice, because the implications are quite serious. So the House can make the decision, but it has to be very clear about what it is deciding. So the Hon Dr Nick Smith has sought leave for all the\u2014do you want to be exact?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222402264afb4b4b8c9bf0b1dd73acb02c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I think it might be helpful to the House to be very clear: that all correspondence, and particularly the advice from the Electoral Commission and the justice ministry, on the issues of foreign interference be publicly released and be able to be referred to in the debate. So, for instance, we\u2019ve received advice in the committee about the very issues in the bill, by the Electoral Commission and the justice ministry. It seems an unreasonable constraint that in debating this bill that deals with those very issues, we cannot refer to that. So that\u2019s the specifics of the leave that I\u2019m seeking, to enable this debate to be more meaningful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ca42956671743d1a6609272a60d5d6a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So the House is clear on the leave that\u2019s being sought; I\u2019ll put that. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0cb4b560b4747a18c76c36ec616417b\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c5665aee23a49b9968b1c7546508651\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, let\u2019s be clear, then, that the request that the member is referring to is publicly available, it\u2019s on the website, it\u2019s given in public\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022040cb4855e034fe1a3a886edfe29d4c3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not correct. It\u2019s correspondence to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221976c940d33a41eba0a76eb08214aba2\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s been referred to publicly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249c54a79c328400881c50699f9413177\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s been in question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea7582eaf68b491c960605ae39e7bb34\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is a difference between referring to the fact that there is a letter and then speaking about the letter in the debate. All right? The contents of the letter\u2014OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc0b571d48cc4155838019c1fffa00f8\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: Can I apologise to the Speaker and the House if I\u2019ve taken time up on this really considered bill. The point is foreign interference is an important issue. It is an absolutely important issue, and I want to acknowledge the work of the Justice Committee but also just acknowledge the significance of why we are here under urgency to address foreign interference in the New Zealand general election come 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud of the Minister of Justice and thankful to the Minister that he\u2019s taken foreign interference in our elections seriously. I actually think that he has got the balance right in terms of acknowledging the areas that we have to address through this bill and giving the electors and the Electoral Commission time to focus on banning foreign donations. That\u2019s essentially what this bill\u2019s intent is. I want to thank those members on most sides of the House that support the intent of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThe front end of the bill clearly outlines that we are making amendments to the Electoral Act 1993 that only apply to parliamentary elections, not local body elections, and that donations over $50 from overseas persons in any form will be banned. Just to be absolutely clear, in the bill we talk about the \u201Coverseas person\u201D definition as per the Electoral Act 1993, and to be crystal clear for members in the House, that is \u201Can individual who\u2014(i) resides outside New Zealand; and (ii) is [neither] a New Zealand citizen [nor] registered as an elector; \u2026 (b) a body corporate incorporated outside New Zealand; or (c) an unincorporated body that has its head office or principal place of business outside New Zealand\u201D. So it\u2019s very clearly spelt out in this bill that not only are we banning foreign donations over $50 from natural, ordinary people but the definition of an overseas person is clearly spelt out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThe bill then goes into the role of party secretaries to take all reasonable steps, and there have been previous speakers that have asked the question: \u201CWhat\u2019s reasonable?\u201D Clearly, the tools which party secretaries will be provided will be worked in conjunction with the Electoral Commission around what are reasonable steps. I\u2019m thankful for the member from Epsom, who talked about only having 11 donations so far for his political party online. So that\u2019s 11.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022414b665e518c4ff5830f360f73b3613d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd9147728cd34b209db4f65a245cd4bb\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: Today\u2014well, maybe it\u2019ll go to 12 by the time we get to election, for that particular member. But let\u2019s be really clear around the importance of this bill and what it\u2019s attempting to do, because I think it\u2019s really important that we do go into next year\u2019s election clearly spelling out that foreign donations are not wanted in any parliamentary election in Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ENow, I too want to address the issue that members, particularly on the Opposition side, have raised around the process. So we\u2019ve all got agreement, apart from the member from Epsom, that this bill will be supported, but there have been some comments around process, and I just want to address the fact that, yes, there is still the inquiry being considered by the Justice Committee. I want to acknowledge the hard work of the Justice Committee. I want to acknowledge all the submitters that have appeared before the select committee and the work that the committee is doing to bring, finally, a report to this House. I think there\u2019s been ample time in that process for all members of the select committee to make a contribution on this particularly important matter of foreign donations in our electoral system. I want to welcome members on that side, when we get to the committee stage of this bill, to speak up on what particular parts of the bill they have issues with\u2014the members over that side have talked about process and about rush and about urgency. We do have the process in this Parliament, as a committee of the whole House, to scrutinise that bill when we get to the committee stage. So I want to look forward to members on that side, other than the Hon Dr Smith. I want to welcome the members that sit on the Justice Committee to take a call around how we can improve the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThe bill, as the Minister\u2019s outlined, clearly sends a message to foreign donors that we don\u2019t want them in our general election next year. It talks about the role of the party secretary, it talks about ensuring what we are saying about overseas person, but it must be seen inside of a wider electoral reform programme that the Minister also outlined in his first speech. That\u2019s why this bill is being addressed under urgency, because it\u2019s important to the public, it\u2019s important to this side of the House particularly, that we send a clear message that foreign donations over $50 are completely banned. We look forward to an honest election come 2020. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022729cb3785d3445db812df30e0534d2dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022729cb3785d3445db812df30e0534d2dc\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I hope it\u2019s helpful, just for the sake of clarity, that I do point out that the letter in question is indeed publicly available. I found it on the Beehive website and am looking at a copy of it now. So just for the sake of clarity, there we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcdfcf7779314d17a53ee09aba86f00e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcdfcf7779314d17a53ee09aba86f00e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All members are honourable, and I believed the members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226d907dbe034642d1a9c3b551d3362ce0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Electoral Amendment Bill (No\u00A02) be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 119\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; New Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002215924efeb3c04d069d46981ece4e8078\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215924efeb3c04d069d46981ece4e8078\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2) is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022833107038b1e4f5fa3c89c8221b04e5a\u0022\u003ECrimes (Definition of Female Genital Mutilation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd9fc212e0834899926482507d32cff7\u0022\u003EIntroduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022 data-id=\u00226e6b6d23a43a4fe2a3a6e64dea9dd964\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e6b6d23a43a4fe2a3a6e64dea9dd964\u0022\u003EJO HAYES (National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00227bdc4f55f5754adf953486d23b0a20a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bdc4f55f5754adf953486d23b0a20a5\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call Jo Hayes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223866bc6239084a038e117d3e3657400a\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, you were looking over there and you were not casting your eyes across the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d09457c12e404723bed1b08ffd4d0f5f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, it was a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d25822a6720448dab3472cebf56c43e9\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I was on my feet and you had turned your head away from my direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c7fb1140da94466b51c45c9a17a3dab\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, I\u2019m sorry, but the member called a point of order. It is a point of order that the member is calling. My apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4a1b8100c8c474cb91b428a1b1f24c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4a1b8100c8c474cb91b428a1b1f24c3\u0022\u003EJO HAYES (National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice or debate regarding a member\u2019s bill in my name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a97be4cd3510427cbcde55ee9d457699\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a41deffe8c7649a7bd3022bcab96b519\u0022\u003EJO HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Crimes (Definition of Female Genital Mutilation) Amendment Bill be introduced and set down for first reading as members\u2019 order of the day No. 2 following the Election Access Fund Bill on 4 December 2019, despite Standing Orders 278 to 281 and 285(2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022758dcaf3-9976-43ac-8593-79f66ee4da22\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d64a6177b6b419b834607ea69f303a3\u0022\u003EElectoral Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269837b1ff57542ff9d2629a9b94848aa\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000644\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca73f073152543e68c61eb64bdba5148\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca73f073152543e68c61eb64bdba5148\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019m thankful for the overwhelming support of the House. I\u2019ve never felt so popular amongst the National Party, actually, until tonight, and I appreciate that support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the contributions in the first reading of David Seymour, the member for Epsom, and I want to address some of those. I mean, it\u2019s very clear what the bill does. It introduces a ban\u2014a real ban\u2014on foreign donations, because it is very clear that that issue has been canvassed in the public hearings of the Justice Committee in their inquiry into the general election. They\u2019ve had evidence in secret as well, we know, from the security and intelligence agencies. They\u2019ve had other evidence too. Other submitters have expressed concerns about the risks now posed not just for New Zealand but worldwide about foreign interference and foreign influence. So introducing a ban with a de minimis threshold of $50 is as good as we can get. In fact, compared to other countries in the world, Canada, I think, has a threshold of $50, Australia about $200, and I think the UK has an even higher threshold than that. But it is very clear what the bill is saying: that donations from a foreign source, in accordance with the definition of what that foreign source is or foreign citizen is, are banned in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt does more than that, of course. It now imposes on party general-secretaries an obligation to conduct due diligence, and as I have made clear in my first reading speech, my expectation is that the level of diligence required is proportionate to the size of the donation. I understand that once the legislation is passed, the Electoral Commission will issue guidance about their expectations about how party general-secretaries must fulfil that duty, and they will also indicate that there is a level of proportionality required\u2014that is to say, a small donation can enjoy a lower level of examination and scrutiny than a much larger donation. That is the right thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI simply come back to the point that I think the member David Seymour was making about \u201CIs it really a ban?\u201D I think we do have to be very clear: either we ban foreign donations or we don\u2019t. I know in some of the talks that I\u2019ve had with colleagues on all sides of the House\u2014do you set a threshold of high? Do you set a threshold, for example, of $1,000? We came down very clearly on the view that if we\u2019re going to ban foreign donations, it must be real and it must be thorough. The $50 de minimis threshold allows for the possibility, as we all do in our party conferences. For example, we invite people from overseas and they often get drawn in\u2014at least in the Labour Party\u2014to buying raffle tickets, putting money in a bucket. So we don\u2019t want to cover that sort of thing, but we do want to make sure that the level is set at a level where the ban is meaningful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, I know Mr Seymour raised very proudly the fact that he\u2019s had 11 donations in a single day, and good on him for that. He asked the question \u201CHow much effort should go into examining those donations?\u201D, and I simply say the effort required ought to be proportionate to the size of the donation. But, at the very least, there will be donations that ought to attract a higher degree of scrutiny. Donations of tens of thousands and, in some cases, more than $100,000 or $200,000, ought to have a higher degree of scrutiny. That\u2019s what New Zealanders would expect in their election system with parties that rely very heavily on private contributions to fund themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been a lot of criticism about the process\u2014the fact that we\u2019re considering this under urgency\u2014and I simply draw the House\u2019s attention to the fact that the issues arising out of the 2017 general election, now more than two years ago, have been the subject of an inquiry by the Justice Committee now for nearly 18 months. The advice I\u2019ve received is it\u2019s 525 days since the Justice Committee started their inquiry. They\u2019ve had a specific focus on foreign interference and foreign influence. They\u2019ve had information from the Electoral Commission, they\u2019ve had it from the security and intelligence agencies, they\u2019ve had it from other parties and other submitters, and they\u2019ve had guidance from me as well, and yet that committee still has not produced a report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve asked for advice on when was the last time that it took the relevant select committee conducting an inquiry into a general election more than two years after the election before they reported back\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022360bfe1f6fe34d68948cf900eaaa20b0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. We\u2019re in a difficult position because the Minister speaking, for the last couple of minutes, has been extensively referring to the select committee inquiry. Now, I\u2019d love to be able to respond to the issues in the select committee inquiry, but I\u2019d be held in breach of privilege because those proceedings are confidential, and some of the statements the Minister has made are incorrect, but I don\u2019t have the opportunity. So I don\u2019t think it is right or proper for the Minister to be able to refer to the proceedings of a select committee when he\u2019s not been a member, and members of the committee are bound by parliamentary process and are unable to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad90f71181fb4b90b00fc05477586991\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m listening very carefully to the Minister, and, at the moment, I\u2019m satisfied that he\u2019s been talking only about the process and not the proceedings. I do understand the frustration that the members of the select committee might feel, but, you know, the House has rejected the opportunity to reverse that. So as long as the Minister sticks to the facts about the proceedings, then I think he is within the Standing Orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af655bacdbeb4372af3557f583143172\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m obliged, Madam Speaker, and the point I\u2019m simply making is that it has been a long time that we\u2019ve been waiting for the conclusions of that report, and more so than we know\u2014and it\u2019s been a matter of public record\u2014about the sorts of issues that the committee has been called upon to consider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI publicly said two or three months ago that I was very keen to see their conclusions, that the issue of foreign donations was one that particularly concerned me and the Government, and that we were ready to move, but we would benefit from the insights that the committee might have gained. We don\u2019t have the benefit of those insights and the election year is upon us, and for the sake of the integrity of that election and making sure that we all go into election year knowing what the rules are, then this bill has become necessary, and, sadly, because of the time of the year and the fact that we\u2019ve been waiting and I\u2019ve been waiting, we now have to do that under urgency. So I take no criticisms whatsoever about the fact that this is the approach we have had to take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis is an important issue, this is a serious issue, and, ordinarily, on matters of electoral law and electoral integrity, there would be a level of cooperation and a meeting of the minds. Now, I know the largest party in Opposition has agreed to support the legislation, and I\u2019m thankful for that and I have listened very carefully to their criticisms. But it is important that on these sorts of issues, in this day and age\u2014and the 2020 general election will conducted in circumstances that are different to the 2017 election, very different to the 2014 election, and a whole heap different to the 2011 election\u2014influence can be conducted and commanded at the push of a button anywhere in the world, and we have to be across that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, like members opposite, as I hear their criticisms, it would be nice if we could have a much deeper, thoroughgoing review of our electoral laws. It didn\u2019t happen under the last Government. We\u2019ve started some changes. We\u2019ve done changes in time for next year\u2014and there are some still to come through the House\u2014that I think will help enormously. I mean, some of those are about actually making it easier for people to vote, and I know members opposite seem to be opposed to that. But the truth is\u2014and the advice is very clear\u2014that our electoral laws are not really the laws of 1993. They are the laws of 1956, and they need an upgrade and change. I have committed and I know the parties in Government are committed to a thoroughgoing review following the next election. In the meantime, we have to deal with what we\u2019ve got, and what we have right now is a real threat and a real risk around foreign influence and foreign interference, and one of the key ways that happens is through the financing of political parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, I know members\u2014we can criticise each other and we can all look at each other\u2019s record and wonder what\u2019s gone on. But the reality is that the risk that we face of foreign interference through financial donations is a very real one, and we have an opportunity through this bill\u2014through this modest bill, through its measures\u2014to actually seriously address the risk associated with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn addition to dealing with foreign donations, it also requires party general secretaries to be resident in New Zealand, and it also adds a further requirement in relation to election advertising\u2014that is to say, election advertising conducted online\u2014that the promoter statements or attributory statements need to be on those advertisements. That\u2019s what the bill does. They are reasonably small measures, but they are measures dealing with a serious and genuine problem, and they will have a serious and genuine impact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve seen one commentator already saying that it doesn\u2019t go to the heart of the issue of routing donations through party headquarters, and that sort of stuff. I disagree with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bcd9ad3620847f5823bbed74bd2f1b4\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Let me guess. Bryce Edwards\u2014was it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8a22cb3289b4ee6a496dd896359bd95\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I disagree with that\u2014no, it was somebody else, whose name I won\u2019t mention, but I\u2019m almost certain he likes to come up in commentary. But I make this point: the due diligence requirement on party general secretaries is a new requirement. We haven\u2019t had that before. We haven\u2019t confined it to just a defence in the event that somebody gets caught, but, actually, it now must run through their daily practice in the way that they conduct themselves running parties. That will make a huge difference and, of course, conducting due diligence in the interests of ensuring that foreign donations are accurate and lawful actually means you have to cover off all donations received by a party, because you need to be sure that any donation that ostensibly even looks like it\u2019s coming from a New Zealand source, and certainly around which there is suitable suspicion, actually does fall under the due diligence requirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo I think a lot of the issues that have caused public anxiety more recently are well covered-off in these provisions. On that basis, however, I\u2019m thankful for the debate so far. I look forward to the remaining sections of the debate, and I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002280751c0c79fa43eab1d9372f96e7bf94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280751c0c79fa43eab1d9372f96e7bf94\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E One of the most precious and important parts of New Zealand that makes us such a successful nation is the strength of our democracy, and we should be so proud that we are one of the oldest parliaments in the world, and the very names of the battles on the walls of this Parliament respect the loss of life for the values of a liberal democracy. I\u2019m equally proud that when National left Government in 2017, New Zealand was ranked as the least-corrupt nation in the world\u2014No. 1 in the world in 2017\u2014and that is something that we should jealously guard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, when we come to this bill of electoral law, it is highly exceptional for this Parliament to pass bills under urgency, but it is even more extraordinarily exceptional that we would pass an electoral amendment bill under urgency and through all stages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288fef1400a654a869dd7908da1681a2c\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What did you do? You stood there and did nothing, Nick Smith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4ef0318a9b74184abac3cdd2692b2a6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been back and checked the record, and I see the new member for Christchurch Central\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fac975046184c22aa08d09053a6cf0e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, I haven\u2019t done anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245e481bccb2e40408b1b85df6ed99c54\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014might be able to answer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207f361d9c63e4575a8080c7d9c70fd59\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222925d9c21944185896f131fd6562e4e\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014this question for me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cafdfc2ac7204767bef3ccf4d2138b93\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I haven\u2019t done anything. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d30b322c96934b92a6e1bd93df6c1383\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I challenge the member for Christchurch Central and ask him this: when was the last time that Parliament under urgency passed an electoral amendment bill? Well, actually, I have checked. The last time it occurred was in 1947\u20141947. Can I say something else about the Act we\u2019re amending? The new 1993 Electoral Act\u2014it\u2019s a massive electoral Act of 800 clauses. The select committee was chaired by Murray McCully, and the Government of the day took the view, cross-party, that electoral law was so important\u2014some of my colleagues are chatting. It is to the huge credit of the chair of that select committee, Murray McCully, that Parliament, on a cross-party basis, was able to pass 600 pages of the current Electoral Act on a consensual basis. That reinforces the strong traditions that this Parliament has had that electoral law needs to be expressed and needs to be considered with real care and, secondly, that urgency is something that should not be accorded to electoral law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, I understand that when we had the Canterbury earthquakes, you could have had urgent issues that required an immediate response. I know the Government opposite, during the global financial crisis, under the Clark Government, passed legislation under urgency. My question for some member of the Government is: where is the urgent crisis that requires these 20 pages of law to be passed under urgency through all stages within a single day? What is the crisis? What is the issue that requires it? Why can it not go to a select committee and give the public the opportunity to have a say? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got to commend the speech I heard from David Seymour that really did reinforce the irony of this bill, that somehow this bill has the intent of strengthening our democracy at the same time as it kneecaps one of our most important democratic institutions\u2014our Parliament\u2014that has a process for bills and changes in law. They go to a select committee and the public have an opportunity to have a say on them. Why is it that members opposite want to refuse New Zealand electoral law experts, members of the public, the Ministry of Justice, the Electoral Commission, and the Law Commission the opportunity to be able to scrutinise this legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fea40372f131453289960ca47ee3ab24\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: National did it\u20142009. You know it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212bd69e2d9b8424dbb11c8b79cc83118\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member opposite says National did it. I say, on which electoral bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022732b13fe875642409ecbf40f4474b360\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Do you yield, Mr Smith? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ac0848b6c604362adf1ae00eb58f60f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I simply ask the question: which electoral bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218036573229e4f788707d8ad8cf0279a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Do you yield for a question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cb189fba54d42f483e0a1c0d11ae0eb\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022342fca5f81ea4cf8b5e074fecd9fffeb\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t yield? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4b8e7faaff040579b1bdf15471fcfe0\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m simply asking, if he wishes to interject with an answer, what bill he is referring to. The member cannot answer it, and he needs to answer. I challenge the member to answer this question: why is this bill not going to a select committee? Why is this bill not giving the opportunity for the public to have a say? Can any member of the Labour Government answer the question? Simply answer the question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ec9e6546c514f20b945796e654786bd\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! A yield is for people to ask a question, and the member has refused to yield. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022145be1a7841d4d298149cb891a847359\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. He says he refuses to yield, and then invites me to answer the question. I would suggest\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022501c72c1e023481daa7f2ddbb20433b0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. No, well that\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a69d3b5ad67e4e87919436c93261646e\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that, in fact, he is yielding by asking me to answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1f1027408c5447e9678e21f8df2446c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s my point. The yielding would be done by him to answer a question that you asked, not for you to answer a question that he is asking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022830a196f22fa409ba1c24f8e50edc92a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I would be delighted for the next member from Labour\u2019s side to answer the question as to why, for the first time since 1947, we are passing an electoral amendment bill under urgency through all stages. How does it help the democratic institution of our Parliament that we are denying the public a say on an area of law that is as important as electoral law, that determines the rules under which our next general election is to be conducted? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe only need look at the media commentary, whether it be Stuff, whether it be TVNZ, whether it be TV3. All of the media have been highly critical of this awful process for passing electoral amendment law. They are saying, rightly, that there is no justification for the urgency and cutting out the public from a proper process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI see Tracey Martin is in the House. I suspect she is standing by her statements that she made on a previous electoral bill, and that is that the Government doesn\u2019t trust the Parliament. They just think they can sit in Cabinet, make the decisions, and whack the legislation in in 24 hours. Well, I\u2019ve got a challenge for Tracey Martin, in her interjection earlier. She says this bill has got nothing to do with the scandal of the New Zealand First Foundation. I say to that member that this bill has got everything to do with the scandal of the New Zealand First Foundation, because the New Zealand First Party is the only party in the 2017 election that did not declare any donations. The New Zealand First Party had 10 times more anonymous donations than any other party in the Parliament. The New Zealand First Party pretends that it has got nothing to do with the New Zealand First Foundation, that has been publicly revealed to be receiving large sums of corporate donations that have been hidden from the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill is part of the Government\u2019s political management of that huge scandal. One political commentator after another has said that that scandal that is enveloping the New Zealand First Party has the capacity to bring down this Labour Government in exactly the same way that the scandal over Owen Glenn brought down the Helen Clark Government. So as part of the sort of reaction and protection from Labour, they think they can get away with it by bringing this bill into the House, a bill that does not address the issues robustly and a bill that follows bad process, but is nothing more than window dressing to try and hide the scandal that will bring down Tracey Martin, New Zealand First, and her colleagues. This is an appalling bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e77ac113d5745fdb5be57d65ce1b6fa\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Bit quiet now. Bit quiet now, Tracey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe3264a5f94d4ce2a16d14e87e668cce\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re very quiet, Stuart Smith, because they know that I\u2019m bang on the pulse\u2014bang on the pulse of what\u2019s going on within this Government, bang on the issue and the scandal that is enveloping them, which is behind the drop in the polls and the reason that this Government is on the ropes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere is a very serious issue around the issue of foreign interference, and members opposite have said, \u201CWell, where is National\u2019s policy?\u201D At the beginning of this year, I gave a speech as National\u2019s electoral law spokesperson, and I proposed five areas of law that required improvement. The first of those was that, actually, we should require the entire Electoral Act to be entrenched, so that it requires a super-majority. That was an approach that John Key adopted in the last National Government. That would stop the sorts of electoral amendment bills that we are continuously seeing from this Government that breach good process. Equally, I said in that speech that we needed to tighten up on foreign donations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThat is why National is supporting this bill, because we do believe it is an area that needs to be tightened up. The problem with this bill is that it does not address any of the greatest risks. When we get to the committee stage, we will be able to get into that detail. This bill is about window dressing. This bill is about trying to provide political cover for the Government over the New Zealand First Foundation scandal, rather than a genuine attempt to improve our electoral laws and ensure that New Zealand retains the reputation as the very, very best democracy in this world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae14fa24eef547c789231dcab2d3ee9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae14fa24eef547c789231dcab2d3ee9a\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E This is an excellent bill that the Minister has brought to this House, the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2). I\u2019m pleased to take a short call on the second reading. Before I address the specific questions that the member before me raised on this side, there were two points I forgot in my first contribution. One was around the party secretary needing to reside in New Zealand. It\u2019s not currently in the Electoral Act, so in this bill we are making sure that the party secretaries reside here, and that is going to help with the process going forward. Also the online advertising must have the name and address put on it, like we do, normally, now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ENow, that member that just resumed his seat, Nick Smith, asked this side which electoral bill we have put under urgency since 1946. I\u2019ve got a response to him. The response is this one: on 17 February 2009, the Electoral Amendment Bill repealed Labour\u2019s Electoral Finance Act and reinstated the old Electoral Act as an interim measure, done by the then National Government. So there\u2019s one. That bill was passed under urgency. He asked if we had a response; there\u2019s one for that speaker. It has been done\u2014it was done in 2008. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThis is a really important bill. Before I end, I also want to correct that previous speaker, where he made reference to the bill being 20 pages. It\u2019s actually eight, so it might pay that member to read the bill before we get to the committee stage. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002215f98fa4c3084750ba6d58195840ab4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215f98fa4c3084750ba6d58195840ab4d\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2)\u2014normally, of course, at the second reading we are reflecting on what we\u2019ve heard by way of submissions at the select committee process. We find ourselves in the unfortunate position of not having had the benefit of any such submissions, so I\u2019m going to do my very best tonight, in my second reading contribution, to make an educated guess of the kind of things that we might have heard. I don\u2019t suppose my imagination or knowledge of the relevant areas will be as good as having heard from the members of the public themselves on this. Of course, the reason we are in this position is that the Government, including all parties thereof, have put forward this urgency motion, such that we are considering this in one fell swoop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe closest that we\u2019ve got to an explanation from the other side is that with the bill due to come into force\u2014if it passes as an Act\u2014on 1 January, or to be effective, at least in some provisions, then we need to pass it now. Well, of course, the obvious answer there is that it doesn\u2019t need to come into force on 1 January; that\u2019s just something that\u2019s written in the bill itself. That too could be changed, and we could align all of the provisions to come into effect on 1 April in the way that\u2019s already been allowed, I think, in clauses 15 and 16, from memory. So the rush is entirely unnecessary, even from that rather silly sort of procedural basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, not having had the opportunity to hear from submitters at the select committee process, I suspect that the kinds of things that they would sensibly raise would be points such as were at least raised on Twitter today by several characters well-known to the #nzpol community, with particular interest in electoral law matters. Sadly, I am not one of them at the moment. No doubt the honourable\u2014excuse me, you know what? I\u2019ll move on from there. In any case, Graeme Edgeler had made a very good point\u2014and I\u2019m going to paraphrase it by use of the phrase \u201Cshell companies\u201D. So his point was\u2014and I\u2019m making this, I remind the House, in lieu of him being able to do so in the select committee\u2014\u201CForeign-owned New Zealand - based companies are still allowed to make unlimited donations.\u201D Well, that\u2019s a bit unfortunate in relation to the stated aim of the bill, as we\u2019ve heard repeatedly from the Minister and other members opposite, and the aim is worthy in itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eec0e044fb2f4240893c39572409a146\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Put forward an SOP, Penk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1a779e7f0f444e6a5588f7b4c00af97\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I hear a suggestion from Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick to put forward a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP), and she knows very well that I will do exactly that in relation, at least, to some of the aspects. I\u2019ll do what I can, Ms Swarbrick, having only received a copy of the bill for the first time at 11 o\u2019clock today. So that\u2019s something for you to look forward to, no doubt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo it is that in relation to shell companies, which is my phrase, not his, I would note that it\u2019s entirely possible to have ownership of a company\u2014let\u2019s start with a company\u2014that\u2019s 100 percent foreign and yet can still be incorporated in New Zealand\u2014yes, with a New Zealand - resident director\u2014and that would not actually be caught by this bill that purports to limit foreign donations. So that\u2019s absolutely extraordinary to me. We\u2019re sort of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut procedurally, and you\u2019re actually missing the nut entirely with this very obvious loophole that you can have a foreign-owned company and, therefore, a foreign-controlled company. Any company worth its salt\u2014and, in fact, any company complying with the law of the land\u2014has to do what\u2019s in the best interests of the shareholders thereof. So while it\u2019s attractive in one sense to have a pretty brightline test that something, according to the New Zealand Companies Register, is either incorporated in New Zealand or not, the fact of the matter is that the intent of the bill is entirely able to be circumvented in this way, and that\u2019s something that we should actually be very concerned about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo too an incorporated society. I actually don\u2019t know, so I\u2019m on risky territory, but no doubt I\u2019ll be corrected if I\u2019m wrong, but I think that it may be possible for all members of an incorporated society to be foreigners\u2014excuse the shorthand. But as far I\u2019m aware there are not any requirements in New Zealand law that the members of an incorporated society need to be New Zealand - based in any way, and yet the incorporated society could be incorporated in New Zealand. That being so, such an entity would not be caught by the definition of overseas person\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299f13a0b4f57461f8c1c9e1da31bc936\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Read the Incorporated Societies Act 1908\u2014older than you are. Read the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4a37e5a22cb4fc6b2e67f0ab980720d\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Read the Act? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5285b401279467791ddceb6386515ef\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The Incorporated Societies Act\u2014where do members have to come from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255a67e32ec7d4802882db91ae4ce8e2d\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think this is a really interesting point, because Dr Duncan Webb may well be right on this, and I wouldn\u2019t be surprised if he is, but these are the kinds of questions that the select committee process should actually thrash out. This is exactly the kind of thing that should be thrashed out. As I say, in relation to companies, it\u2019s 100 percent ownership. If I don\u2019t know it, then I don\u2019t know what hope\u2014a lot of New Zealanders who would be standing for election or who otherwise concern themselves in relation to electoral law will not have the opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s before we even start looking at trusts, which might be somehow considered to be\u2014what\u2019s the test? Here we go: have a \u201Cprincipal place of business outside New Zealand\u201D\u2014a head office. Well, that\u2019s not necessarily something that a trust would have, let alone a foundation. I\u2019m sort of in two minds about whether I go there, so to speak, in terms of foundations. Certainly, I won\u2019t talk about one particular foundation, because I think, you know, we probably don\u2019t need to refer to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224839c709ac85464c809b527d27b51be0\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: What about the National Party foundation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a850536ce50c4fafac9941e29b16f3c3\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go. Well, I\u2019m now going to respond, because the Hon Clare Curran is asking about the New Zealand National Party Foundation. The good news about the New Zealand National Party Foundation, Ms Curran, is that it records and receives donations in a transparent way in accordance with the current law, and then\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e428219f7744f458f87fdb12dadf111\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re all declared. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208c0364cc0f14730adea9d0fe61721c6\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they\u2019re all declared; exactly\u2014they are made, as appropriate. But the distinction with the New Zealand First Foundation, as I understand it\u2014but I would welcome being corrected by the Hon Tracey Martin in a call\u2014is that it does not record the donations that come in to the foundation. That is exactly the point on which it is so relevant that the legislation is deficient, and on which Ms Swarbrick will be very pleased to know there may well be an SOP in the pipeline for that. I\u2019m sure that I will enjoy her support and that of her Green colleagues, if not New Zealand First, in relation to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAnother thing that the select committee may well have looked at if it had been afforded the opportunity and, again, been the subject of fair submissions is the notion of a ban. Well, we\u2019ve heard already from the Minister that this is a ban, which is totally different in nature from what the current electoral law says, and yet we\u2019ve already explained on this side of the House that we\u2019re merely shifting the threshold\u2014admittedly, from $1,500 to $50\u2014but it\u2019s either a ban now and then a ban later, or it\u2019s not a ban at all. So that\u2019s the kind of thing, again, that I\u2019d expect submitters to be raising and to be interested to know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for reasonable steps, well, this is the key phrase really in terms of what party secretaries or candidates are expected to be able to take. We don\u2019t have any sense of what that is, based on other than, obviously, the meaning of those words themselves, as we might expect. So, again, it would be helpful to have a select committee process to thrash that out by way of submissions and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAnother thing that select committee submitters, again, if they\u2019d been given the opportunity to have a say, might reasonably have questioned is the proportionality doctrine that Minister Andrew Little has put forward tonight. I actually think that the idea\u2019s got a certain amount of merit. I think it\u2019s probably reasonable, at least as a starting point of discussion, to say the smaller a donation the less attention needs to be paid, and maybe the less rigour and the less scrutiny, but it\u2019s not something that the law actually says. So it\u2019s something that\u2019s in the Minister\u2019s mind and if he thinks it\u2019s reasonable and a matter of good lawmaking then, for goodness\u2019 sake, let\u2019s see it in the actual law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019d certainly welcome the opinions of New Zealanders who would be subject to the law to actually be able to say whether they think it\u2019s a good idea or not, and if they do, and if the select committee were to agree and so forth, then we could put that law in the law, so to speak. We could put the rule in the law, which is exactly where it belongs, and not merely to be referred to if stumbled upon in Hansard in future years, perhaps when we\u2019ve got the difficult position that the Electoral Commission might be placed in to simply have to second-guess what the legislative intent was in discharging something of a judicial function. That\u2019s constitutionally inappropriate in a way that should be obvious to everyone in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe other thing I think that, within my remaining minute, Madam Speaker\u2014I could go on, and I will at the committee stage, which is something for you to look forward to. My final point for now is to understand what the law is actually looking to do. So that is to understand the nature of the threat or the problem that has to be solved. It\u2019s all very well to say that the current select committee process which is engaged in an election inquiry says one thing here, and this bill, which has been introduced under urgency, does another thing here, and that somehow the two should be connected. But we should actually be looking very carefully to try and understand and check that what the bill is actually doing is a reasonable and proportionate and direct response to the problem that is out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo looking at the document\u2014which I hasten to add is publicly available\u2014Impact Summary: Mitigating foreign interference through party and candidate donations, this is advice to the Minister available today. So it says \u201Cconcern about foreign interference is growing\u201D, and it mentions a few international examples. I can\u2019t go into them now for reasons of time, and I won\u2019t breach the privilege of the process, but suffice to say, there\u2019s a lot of good stuff in there that deserves an airing and should be heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u002214fa1759096142e7bf7ac8dea12dd303\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214fa1759096142e7bf7ac8dea12dd303\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. First of all, I\u2019d just like to make sure that the public become aware that at some stage Dr Nick Smith will start shouting\u2014just so you know. At that moment, it is because there is something that has been said that he finds personally offensive or touches a nerve so closely to his own reality that he feels the need to abuse others. So just to be sure, at some stage\u2014to the members of the public\u2014you will hear Dr Nick Smith shouting across the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI wanted to start this contribution by acknowledging those people who step up to be party secretaries. I want to acknowledge those individuals, most of whom do it on a voluntary basis, and who put themselves at risk, actually, to be the party secretaries of political parties because they have a belief in that party and what it stands for, and they have a belief in that party and the fact that that party needs to be part of the New Zealand political environment. Those people are put at risk by candidates and by political parties who do not follow the electoral rules. The members of the public may not know that it is not the leaders of political parties\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b37f05a93001478d9d2f8d70af479c3b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a bit rich. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d640464ab72146ea9c845cd27af5e0dd\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: You can hear Dr Smith laughing now. I don\u2019t know who the party secretary is of the National Party, but I want you to understand that Dr Smith is laughing about the commitment that you have made and how the actions of candidates, when they do not follow electoral law, put you at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EThe public may not know that it is the party secretary that signs all declarations around donations. It is the party secretary whose authorisation must be on every billboard and on every advert that must have been run through the party. It is the party secretary, when it comes to the candidate returns and the party returns, who, if they do not follow the law, will find themselves in front of the police, in front of the Serious Fraud Office and in front of the Electoral Commission. Now, Dr Smith is still laughing. I do not understand why Dr Smith dismisses the party secretaries and the responsibility that they take in this way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268084664e3fb4b16aa823e9ea37aacab\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Because your leader wants to sue them. He\u2019s threatened to sue them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bb351cef05f4cb1bad9520d92d3f7ae\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: See, now you can hear Dr Smith shouting. So what I wanted to do was to acknowledge those people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb4d3f4d09e74b46aa6ab091a478d1ee\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why is Winston\u2019s lawyer threatening to sue your ex - party president? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea9ae6da3f3c4fc2b2f66d8d6eee575e\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: And now Dr Smith is concerned for his own self. He is now talking about the fact that he will not walk outside of this House and make the statements that he made earlier under the protection of this Parliament. He will not do it, because he will not put his money where his mouth is. He will not walk outside this House, away from the protection of this House, and make those statements. I ask the New Zealand public to then decide\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022578a60ee3b4549b9ab672e8abc71bbce\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re a bully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a239b2d714649c1a5f1353825d51221\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Smith, that\u2019s not appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216c5b99b92c24fed913724157ec1a13a\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014what you think about a person who will not walk outside the House and make the same statements that they will make under parliamentary privilege. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI have to say, I\u2019m incredibly disappointed with Mr Penk\u2019s contribution. When I came into this House, there were certain people in this House that said \u201CThis is the way that you behave. This is the way that you must debate. This is the way you must personalise and attack others.\u201D Now, I said \u201CNo. To the best of my ability, I will not do that. I will try my best to stick to the topic.\u201D Dr Smith got up and spoke to Mr Penk just before Mr Penk\u2019s contribution, and I am very saddened that Mr Penk did what Dr Smith asked him to do, and that was to stray from the notes. Mr Penk normally gives a very factual and useful contribution to debates. Mr Penk strayed from his notes, under the instruction of Dr Smith to attack. That is beneath Mr Penk. He has shown himself to be a better politician than that, and I think it\u2019s deeply saddening that he has not stood by his own standards, has but allowed that senior member of that party to actually digress him from his contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI also want to talk about the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b23e46d990f45778c1c3502d500d472\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about openness in donations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022149afca20e1f42a6aaeecc7369431f2d\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: You can hear Dr Smith shouting again. Just so the New Zealand public knows, that is Dr Nick Smith shouting around a contribution because he feels strongly that, actually, he\u2019s going to be seen for exactly what he is when the New Zealand public have a look at his contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI found it very interesting with Dr, with Tim Macindoe\u2014sorry. I just about made you a doctor. I apologise, Mr Macindoe, and it\u2019s the Hon Tim Macindoe, I believe. I found that very interesting in Mr Macindoe\u2019s contribution that he used the words \u201CUsing urgency in this instance to screw the scrum\u201D. I don\u2019t understand, if the National Party agrees that there should not be non - New Zealanders making contributions to political parties, why this, under urgency, is screwing the scrum, and yet the Minister has attempted to explain to this House on a number of occasions. We have an election in 2020. This House, all bar one member, is agreed that we do not wish to see non - New Zealanders\u2014I dislike the colonial phrase of \u201Cforeigner\u201D. We do not wish to see non - New Zealanders have a financial influence on our democracy, and so I do not understand what the issue is with regard to screwing the scrum that Mr Macindoe talked about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EThere were a couple of other technical points inside of this bill, which are that a party secretary, or any person acting in the position of the secretary, must live in New Zealand, and that will not be a hardship for any political party. I don\u2019t believe it will be a hardship for any political party because our party secretaries are such committed individuals to New Zealand democracy to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c72cbbcb19194bacb19faef83b8d6929\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand First president resigned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3cab6d6674441a28672214e56b94e51\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, you can hear Dr Smith shouting out with regard to that. Now, again, I\u2019m talking about party secretaries. He seems to get incredibly upset when I talk about these very dedicated people to the democracy of New Zealand, but he continues to shout when I talk about party secretaries. If I was the party secretary of the National Party, I would really be careful if my future or my responsibilities lay in the hands of that particular individual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EThe other thing that the bill does is that the offence of promoting anonymous advertisements relating to an election is extended so that it applies to all advertising mediums, including online advertising, in order to deter misleading, anonymous online advertisements. Now, I don\u2019t think that any New Zealander, having looked at some of the elections overseas, will concern themselves or will believe that that is not necessary. We are moving into an environment where election campaigns are being run in the digital space\u2014completely being run in the digital space\u2014therefore, our electoral laws must be updated to manage that space. They must be updated to make sure that the integrity of our democracy is maintained. Again, I say every member bar one agrees with this piece of legislation. Every member bar one has said that, yes, this needs to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EThe reality is there is an inquiry that, for whatever reason\u2014and I don\u2019t know what reason it is\u2014is still inside a select committee. I have no knowledge of why it\u2019s still inside a select committee, 500-and-something days later, but we have an election coming. We have seen in elections held recently in other Western nations that there has been interference\u2014I\u2019m going to have to say \u201Cforeign\u201D now, because they are not non - New Zealanders\u2014by foreign powers. We have seen that there have been ways that digital media and digital promotion have been used to manipulate democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI note that Dr Smith is now giving instructions to the Hon Tim Macindoe, so I have no doubt that the Hon Tim Macindoe will now also get up and decide to personalise this debate. I think it\u2019s a sad day when a senior member of a major political party in New Zealand is able to manipulate the calibre of his colleagues to participate in a way that I know they would not normally do. I have no idea why Mr Macindoe and Mr Penk would lower themselves to such a level, and I think it\u2019s a very sad day for those two gentlemen that they have lost their way and that they follow the instructions of Dr Nick Smith rather than participating. I just want to point out to the New Zealand public that Mr Penk just pretended to cry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ESo we can see the incredible seriousness with which the National Party has decided to take our democracy. They have every right to debate and object. They\u2019re not objecting; they\u2019re voting for the bill. They are now deciding to use the time they have to minimise our democracy, to minimise the importance of non - New Zealand interference, and to minimise the importance of making sure that anonymous adverts cannot be put into place so that we know who is trying to act against us. They\u2019re going to take this time to minimise. What a deep shame it is for that party to have fallen so low. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00227a1d0ba185024b83b738bf64d05610ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a1d0ba185024b83b738bf64d05610ad\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, that was a disappointing and deeply unimpressive contribution from the Hon Tracey Martin, and I often enjoy following the Hon Tracey Martin. I\u2019d like to think we get on quite well, but I need to tell the House three reasons why that was such an unimpressive speech. The first is that she began with what I thought was really a sort of school girlish tactic of saying \u201CWell, the Opposition are going to interject regularly throughout my speech, and you need to know it\u2019ll be this person and that person.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ELet me just remind Mrs Martin that when I spoke during the first reading, she, more than any other person on the other side of the House, interjected constantly while I spoke, and lots of them interjected, but it was Mrs Martin more than any other whose voice rose above all the rest interjecting. So that was number one, and she was almost goading people in this House to interject. Well, this is a very spirited debate, and so, naturally, there are interjections from both sides. That\u2019s appropriate in a debate. It means that people are animated, they\u2019re engaged, and they\u2019re focused on the issues, and a good speaker ought to be able to cope with the interjection, and not just say \u201CWell, this is nasty. Aren\u2019t they a horrible group of people?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe second reason I think it was a particularly unimpressive speech was that Mrs Martin failed to deal with the issues at hand and, in particular, failed to explain why her party is willing to support urgency on this measure, which, as she has just noted, is being supported by all parties except the sole member from the ACT Party. So it isn\u2019t the issues that underpin the debate that are at stake; it\u2019s the abuse of process. Her party is condoning the abuse of process when it isn\u2019t necessary, and she completely failed to explain to the House why she and her party are willing to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EPerhaps the third and most significant reason was her failure to take up the challenge to explain the murky dealings of the New Zealand First Foundation. That is deeply relevant to this debate. I ask Mrs Martin: is it true that in recent weeks, her party president and her party treasurer have both resigned? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022039b3d95c5804e8d818f9031d7aca7fb\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Sorry, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m trying to create the relevance between Mr Macindoe\u2019s comments or questions at this moment with the topic of the debate, which is about foreign donations and anonymous advertising in election campaigns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c84b83c4e6640388df02fca6a17e194\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure he\u2019s just getting to that very point now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022998562a039c448a491500b11d527118a\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, Madam Speaker. I was making that point if the member hadn\u2019t interrupted me. We have at this stage a very unclear and, frankly, deeply unsatisfactory picture emerging about the funding of the New Zealand First Foundation, and the point I\u2019m making is that both their party president and the party treasurer have resigned because of their refusal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c04a188963d4e42aa5a0c1d0ed1ea57\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022210f2406bf874adab40f9551b3fec0d5\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, she doesn\u2019t like this, does she? She doesn\u2019t like this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e323a94bf3d54ecaaede2368c0e3b6f3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has been in the House long enough to know that that is not an appropriate comment to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7ecf1ace3c04625b153ccb33aff5c4a\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m wondering whether the member could actually draw any correlation between what is in the bill itself and the contribution that he is making, at any stage, apart from supposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022052d604250444dfbbf04028fe920a398\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d036a2b8a79247bd8b1de346de59335a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t need any assistance, thank you. The general tradition in the House has been that when a bill is not being referred to a select committee, a little more leeway is given on the scope of the speech, but after 2\u00BD minutes, I think it would be appropriate for the Hon Tim Macindoe to speak directly to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222433cabe37b74d329737e04e56cf32de\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: I believe I have been speaking to the bill for the whole time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255979a4cc75e4c0987008593db1f3f9d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you may not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d04ec0b19dc94df9a09253e94272d5bd\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and, in particular, I am rebutting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022631c87e8b361411d944cf5ea827def4e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you may reflect on direct challenges to what I\u2019ve just asked the member to do. The member knows that is not appropriate. I would really encourage him to speak directly to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f36ed2d1d5f24342b6e166594bef719d\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Is it your ruling that I am not allowed to rebut the points made by the previous speaker? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe078b63e8394685a7cb2e78b79fb673\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not what I said at all. I invited the member, for the second time, to speak to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223afc039c81054e25993a1e4728764bc1\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: I am referring to points that were made by the previous speaker on this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242be92a8127e48c7b598d5aef394e95f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: And, after 2\u00BD minutes, the member could refer now directly to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218fd9829eb314d1489be88ba64a76d8a\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, everything I\u2019m saying relates to this particular bill under discussion, and I think it is very valid for all members of this House to ask the New Zealand First Party to explain the funding behind the New Zealand First Foundation when we consider a bill on electoral donations. I fail to see why any member of the Parliament would not see the direct relevance between those two particular points, and it was disappointing in the extreme that Mrs Martin failed to explain that. I\u2019ve asked her to explain why her party president and her treasurer have resigned rather than sign off their party\u2019s accounts. If that isn\u2019t a serious matter that we can discuss in this House under freedom of speech, then we are having our rights as members of Parliament curtailed in a way that I think is an outrage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dr Nick Smith, in his contribution, repeatedly asked the question of members of the Government parties why this measure is being debated under urgency. We\u2019ve got one day to ram this bill through, despite the fact that it enjoys the support of all members of the House except the ACT Party, and I have to say that while I often listen to David Seymour with particular interest, I\u2019m still trying to figure out exactly what reason his party has for opposing the bill as well. We are still awaiting the answer, and it\u2019s important because there is a very longstanding principle\u2014and other members have drawn attention to this\u2014underpinned by the most significant constitutional practice that electoral measures are, or at least should be, debated fully, put out for public consultation, subjected to a wide range of submissions, and, ideally, passed unanimously, as they often are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWell, as my very fine colleague the member for Helensville noted when he began his contribution a short time ago, we\u2019re in the unusual position now of having commenced a second reading where we can\u2019t refer to the submissions because there weren\u2019t any. There was no time allowed for it. We only did the first reading before and immediately after the dinner adjournment. Officials have not had a chance to advise the committee on this particular bill that the Minister has put forward today. The Minister didn\u2019t have the courtesy to alert the Opposition to the fact that he was going to do that. We only heard it during our caucus meeting this morning. So this is a constitutional outrage on a measure of very significant importance, and it is particularly disappointing when we agree with the principles that underpin the bill that this abuse of process is, frankly, making a debate so contentious when, really, it could\u2019ve been done by consensus probably quite quickly, if only the Government had observed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227129449a5cac4634b6a0f76eeddc755b\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: What a joke. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022642cd88fd72141f1b46bc9ecfa4857f0\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the constitutional principles. Sorry, Ms Curran? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251830f5b000f4d65bb14baef2715512b\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Tell the truth, Tim Macindoe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280251030118d4899884a992793459f36\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244d366db264f420aaa3ac59919c0e324\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re interrupting your own speech with a point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283c7bd72b1d143bd830c52e109f0c2ee\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: I am. No, Madam Speaker, I\u2019m not interrupting my speech. Ms Curran has just interrupted my speech with an unparliamentary interjection, and I\u2019m asking you if that\u2019s satisfactory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1a95fc7e63f4f64b1b0c090a689e9eb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member can sit down. I didn\u2019t hear the interjection. The Hon Clare Curran will stand, withdraw, and apologise if she made an unparliamentary remark. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276cdb3b799904ca3b70a19dd5260da84\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219b982b67a8a4cceaa30ecb85dcc5f39\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re on a point of order. I\u2019ve asked you to withdraw and apologise if you made an unparliamentary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6e5b4883fe64b05acda75f360b10058\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CTell the truth,\u201D was the comment. Is that an unparliamentary comment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022423f695352144a23a488177718c399cf\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa224f41a5ce489589a0d492f7c23cc7\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220aa33b0a6834bae94e87fa1f75edf72\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Intriguing that Ms Curran would make the comment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248683c46d940477fa6e936a3aef19707\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will not refer to a point of order that\u2019s been dealt with. He may resume his speech and speak to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022455e8832a1e542bebef41214a935543a\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the absurd thing about this process is that all parties apart from ACT are in support of it, and yet we have not yet had one member opposite explain the need for urgency. Frankly, the explanation for that is proving more elusive than the Scarlet Pimpernel. Perhaps it\u2019s the scandal of the still murky but emerging shady details of the New Zealand First Party Foundation that underpins the reason for the Government parties wanting to get this through quickly. I hoped that Tracey Martin would explain it; instead, she chose to avoid that. She chose not to distance herself from that indefensible entity. She chose to abuse Dr Smith instead and avoid the issue. Well, that, frankly, is very unimpressive, and I\u2019m sure the members of the public who are listening will see that for what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWhat we are doing tonight is passing a measure that I\u2019m sure enjoys widespread support in the public as well. So, as I say, I don\u2019t think it would\u2019ve needed to have taken a long time, but it should\u2019ve been done properly, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re having this debate\u2014because we\u2019ve got a Government that claimed when they were in Opposition to want to hear what the public had to say and to be the champions of parliamentary democracy and all the rest of it, and then the minute they get into Government, they turn all of that on their head, aided and abetted by the Green Party, which I find inexplicable, because they were most pious of all in Opposition. Now, all three of those parties in Government are behaving disgracefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EAs I say, it\u2019s a bill that enjoys near-unanimous support, but the Minister\u2019s reason for pushing this through under urgency is utterly disingenuous. Frankly, it\u2019s blatantly dishonest in the extreme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223339b0ab2c240f4a07c26cf02db366f\u0022\u003EHon Stuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That member called Clare Curran out for calling on him\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b3a06ed3c8d4b6b8d9f092ea4c94669\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member won\u2019t refer to a point of order that\u2019s been dealt with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d67f5611af047119f5354d2f3b8595a\u0022\u003EHon Stuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: I find calling a Minister of the Crown dishonest offensive, and I would like the member to stand up and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022389afd1d58bb4ead91c3e217c641d8ad\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Tim Macindoe\u2014you\u2019ve got one minute and 50 seconds remaining. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022672eaf7869824bb28d8c8ffd3f295b99\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The point I\u2019m making is that the Minister claimed that he was justifying this on the grounds that the select committee had or hadn\u2019t been doing this, that, or the other, and the point I was making is the Minister in all the roughly six months I\u2019ve been a member of the Justice Committee has never attended a meeting of the Justice Committee. So he does not know and his claims are completely false, because how could he know what\u2019s been going on in the select committee? He had the gall to blame the National Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fec606e14ed64cfab7fba00cad0d6d89\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The assertion that the claim by the Minister was false is very clearly a breach of the Standing Orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f56bdbe1d8294e67bb7e0ee933b9036f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member Tim Macindoe will stand, withdraw and apologise, and then finish his speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022936e48842dc642c8833d4d05853c3a1b\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, Madam Speaker, what am I withdrawing and apologising for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce1649eee1d04776b92ec51542eae5c3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I trust that the member is able to recall the last sentence that he spoke in the House. Michael Wood actually repeated it. I\u2019d ask the member to withdraw and apologise, and then conclude his speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b01fd1ff10b941dbb9f4e22dd68d0e33\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a72064e0f47b4c908856d9cdd7c77151\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. You\u2019ve got one minute and 17 seconds to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257921dc8717b41ce814ffdb84b26f225\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has never attended the select committee in all the time that I\u2019ve been a member of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022433093f8fcd34678bea7ee051d56230e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got one minute and 14 seconds to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297a5defc70f0474b8469dc905e1afb13\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a statement of fact, and he is blaming the National Party for the fact that the Justice Committee has still not reported to the House on its 2017 general election inquiry, when the very clear reason for that rests with the Government, who failed to initiate the inquiry for the best part of a year after they took office. That\u2019s why no terms of reference were consulted by caucuses. That\u2019s why no submissions were invited. That\u2019s why none of those matters that are important\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229554742d8ef646e2be256959eb683c30\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: Those members blocked it last week\u2014one week ago, they voted against it, and blocked it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c061240ea8964b92a187af9e887ef972\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014began to be looked into, and for the Government senior whip to be finding a disingenuous reason to interject in the third point of order in quick succession, when all of what I have said is absolutely true and factual\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229393fad3041e4840bf77fdc13df0f7bb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I apologise to my colleague Tim Macindoe. Is it appropriate for the Government whip Michael Wood to be making reference to private proceedings of the Justice Committee? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220658e3206a704e1b9ec982582e01823e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, I didn\u2019t hear his comment. The Hon Tim Macindoe\u2019s got 20 seconds remaining. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d36d5ec906944baaf478220e832c3af\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6c67c0dfdc045d6a04f4e07148fdda9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: 19. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269daf41dad644df6b03ff8c274625f29\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s kind of you to count the seconds down. I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve ever known there to be so many points of order during a speech. I hope that those who are listening can see what has been happening for what it is\u2014and that is, a Government that doesn\u2019t like hearing the truth, hearing the facts. I have been giving them quite clearly and nothing\u2019s changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u002265e644f4deed409992bae6de11fbbdb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265e644f4deed409992bae6de11fbbdb9\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise in support of this bill, a bill that brings out one of the key provisions of my strengthening democracy member\u2019s bill. It\u2019s something that sits close to the heart of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand, which is securing New Zealand\u2019s democracy, making it equal, making it transparent, and making it available equally to all voters, not just those with deep pockets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe live right now at a moment in global history where democracy is under attack in various ways from big money interference, including from foreign interference. We live at a global moment and issues like the climate crisis, issues like tobacco regulation, and the sugar tax, and things like gun law reform have been slowed to the point of rendering Houses of Representatives like this ineffective and superfluous because democracy has been undermined. It has been bought and sold on the open market and we don\u2019t want that here, and we realise that New Zealand\u2019s democracy has thus far been vulnerable. We\u2019ve been relying too long on our culture of openness and of fairness, but we know that there are dark forces out there who don\u2019t abide by those same democratic principles. We know that we\u2019re vulnerable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThis is exactly why the Justice Committee began its inquiry into foreign interference. We know that that select committee valiantly sat through months and months and heard submissions from experts, from our own security agencies, from members of the public, and from human rights organisations from across this nation that highlighted all of the risks, and outlined all of the changes that we need, and do you know what? They were slowed down, nearly to a stop. Who\u2014who\u2014would want to slow down the Justice Committee in looking into electoral reform to make New Zealand stronger, New Zealand\u2019s democracy fairer, and New Zealand\u2019s democracy protected against foreign interference? Why would a political party or members of this House of Representatives want to slow that process down? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe know the advice is that if we don\u2019t pass law this year, because of the complexity of the implementation of this law, it won\u2019t be applicable to the next election. Who would want to stop the risk of foreign interference from affecting the next election\u2014who would want that for New Zealand? That\u2019s what they\u2019ve done, and we won\u2019t let it happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen other examples where the National Party has slowed down the political process, the democratic process, and then turned around and said, \u201CWell, you can\u2019t do this because the process hasn\u2019t happened.\u201D Well, the process has happened and the Green Party supports this bill because we know consultation did happen. We know they tried to stop it. Who would want to do that? Who would have something to gain from stopping the law passing that would protect New Zealand\u2019s democracy from foreign interference? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWell, not us, and we\u2019ve done it before when we\u2019ve seen that the tactic has been utilised to slow down the legal progress. We supported urgency for paid parental leave in the beginning of this Parliament because we knew that that bill, in substance, had already been to select committee. We knew that they wanted to slow it down to stop New Zealanders from accessing their rights and their welfare and we wouldn\u2019t let them do it, and we won\u2019t let them do it now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThis falls squarely within Green Party kaupapa, because we do stand for democracy and we know that the political process is about substantive consultation, not just tick-boxing. We know that substantive consultation has happened\u2014we\u2019re satisfied. We also know that we don\u2019t have much time to lose. We\u2019ve seen democracy undermined. We\u2019ve seen that happen in Australia. We\u2019ve seen it happen in Britain. We\u2019ve seen it happen in the United States. We don\u2019t want to see it happen here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo this bill makes it unlawful for foreign donations that are over $50 to be made to any political party or political candidate. The limit is there. My bill proposed a complete ban, but the advice was that it\u2019s actually quite difficult in circumstances where fund-raising is happening at a town hall meeting or over raffle ticket sales and people can\u2019t check somebody\u2019s immigration status. So there does need to be a small buffer in order to allow for that administration to happen. But for all intents and purposes, foreign political donations are banned by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESomething else is happening that\u2019s exciting to me and it should be exciting to everyone in this House, and, you know, it does have support from across the House, so I suspect we all agree that we do need to be protected from misinformation and from a lack of transparency in terms of who is, in fact, sponsoring political advertising. We\u2019ve seen that go wrong. We\u2019ve seen it go wrong online in social media platforms. We\u2019ve seen it go wrong in all manner of political advertising. New Zealanders need to know who is taking a stake in the messaging around politics, and this bill makes it necessary for advertisers to tell us who they are\u2014to tell us their names. We need to know: are you a tobacco company, are you a gun lobbyist, or are you an oil company who is advertising against the politics of change for the environment, for our healthcare system, or for keeping New Zealanders safe from military-style guns? So we are making that happen in this bill. Who would want to slow that down, after we\u2019ve heard hundreds of submissions over months and months? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe other thing that the Opposition takes issue with\u2014which I was quite surprised to hear a lawyer bring up\u2014is the issue of shell companies. Well, you know what? Anyone who sets up a shell company\u2014and a shell company is a fake company that is set up to bypass the law\u2014is committing fraud. First, you have to ban the activity. Then you can charge them, investigate them, and actually apply the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe have all manner of laws that people can bypass by committing fraud. For example, we have a limit on the amount of electorate donations that someone can receive. If they wanted to chop that up, for example, to bypass the law, we would refer them to the police, and then maybe the Serious Fraud Office would investigate them. That would be breaking the law. We don\u2019t know if that\u2019s happened, of course, in relation to the National Party, but we are able to investigate that allegation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac895e199234414ea63b4620ebca8a9a\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: We know that the SFO is investigating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2f928e4da2f479d8e9ce08022a2e180\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN\u003C/span\u003E: We do get to investigate that allegation because the law exists, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing today: we\u2019re creating a law that bans that kind of activity. So if somebody sets up a shell company\u2014a fake company\u2014or tries to bypass the foreign donation ban in any way, we can now investigate them and charge them. Thank God we are regulating that activity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThis is an important first step. It\u2019s only a first step. The Green Party has a suite of changes that we\u2019d like to introduce, and submitters supported that. Actually, even the head of the SIS said \u201CWe need more transparency regulation in terms of our political donations regime so that we can, in fact, further investigate\u201D\u2014be better at applying the law like the ban on foreign donations. So we would like to lower the anonymity threshold. We know that a lot of donations go to all major political parties in our system anonymously. We want to be able to have our institutions apply the law in an easier way, and we want New Zealanders to know who, in fact, is taking a stake in our democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe want to put limits on political donations. We think $35,000 should be enough. We don\u2019t need hundreds of thousands of donations coming from corporates, and, you know, Simon Bridges has said \u201CYou can\u2019t limit political donations, because that\u2019s free speech.\u201D Free speech and democracy on sale\u2014no. Our vote is our ability to make a choice, to have our political voices heard. It shouldn\u2019t be open to that kind of interference. It shouldn\u2019t be for sale to the highest bidder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve got a lot more work to do, but this is an important first step. It\u2019s sending a signal to the world and to New Zealand that this House cares about democracy, and we have heard their voices through the months-long select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo I commend this bill to the House. It\u2019s a good day for democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022748a57c3d4124e2f86566f3c560cb08a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022748a57c3d4124e2f86566f3c560cb08a\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I have to admit to sensing a rich vein of irony in the House tonight, because we just had a speech from the Green Party member in which she talked about dark forces, she talked about the terrible influence of big money in politics and of interference in elections, and yet here I\u2019ve been looking at the returns for overseas donations since 2011, and what do those returns tell us? Well, what they tell us is that the Green Party has had more overseas donations since 2011\u2014more donations\u2014than any other party in the Parliament. In fact, I\u2019ve gone through the numbers and the numbers are astounding, because here we have, in 2018\u2014how many overseas donations did the National Party file in its return? That\u2019s right\u2014zero. How many from the Greens? Fifty-seven. Then, what happened in 2017? Sixty overseas donations to the Green Party. But, you know, 2015 was a ripper of a year for the Green Party on the overseas donations front: 300 overseas donations that year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo if the member Golriz Ghahraman wants to be concerned about overseas donations and the influence they can have, she should perhaps start by looking at her own party. Once she\u2019s done that, the next thing she should consider is the party that is in coalition with the party that her party supports, because here we have a member that is very happy to talk about free speech for sale and to talk about her concern about the fact that money could be influencing politics, and yet where was she in the past two weeks, when we had it on the front pages of New Zealand\u2019s newspapers, when in every cafe around the country people were talking about New Zealand First and the donations it is hiding through the New Zealand First Foundation? What did the Green Party have to say about that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b523adf5e55499c813dbeeeec19e4ad\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d22c57f4e844672bbaa9b25878ee714\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: That is right\u2014the sound of silence. So what you need to understand is that your principles matter when it suits you, but you leave them to one side when it doesn\u2019t, and that\u2019s the way that the Green Party wants to conduct politics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThen we look at this bill, because here we are, we\u2019re at the second reading. Now, normally at the second reading, normally at this stage in the debate, we would reflect\u2014wouldn\u2019t we\u2014on the select committee process. We would reflect on the submissions we\u2019d heard and on the members of the public who\u2019d come and shared their views about whether this bill had the right wording and whether it was going to be implementable, about any gaps it might have, and questions it leaves unanswered. We would have had a select committee process where electoral law experts\u2014that Golriz Ghahraman would otherwise probably be quite happy to quote in this House\u2014would have made their submissions and would have put in their considered thoughts. But, tonight, we don\u2019t have the opportunity to reflect on whether this bill really does what it says it wants to do, because the Green Party, voting alongside Labour and the New Zealand First Party, have denied New Zealanders the opportunity to have their say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the Green Party\u2019s idea of democracy tonight. Their idea is \u201CActually, we know best. We\u2019ll just say yes to this bill. We all know all this bill does is reduce the limit for the number of donations. It doesn\u2019t actually get to any of the bigger issues, but we\u2019ll support it going through under urgency. We will deny the rights of New Zealanders to have their say because it suits us on this occasion.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENormally, tonight, we would also have had the opportunity to think about whether or not this bill was doing what it set out to do. I am left with many, many unanswered questions. My unanswered questions start with what I think is actually the fundamental issue, which is: does there remain the ability for foreign States to circumvent New Zealand\u2019s electoral donations laws in a way that allows them to influence elections? I don\u2019t think that question is answered by this bill at all, because I am still very wary of the fact that a foreign State could potentially provide money to a New Zealand - based company or resident, who could then lawfully donate to a political party or candidate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENow, this is my question. It may be answerable, but we have not had the opportunity to examine that question because the Government is set on rushing this through. That\u2019s why I\u2019m cynical, because I think that, actually, we deserve an answer to that question. I think it is fundamental. If we are, in this House, joined in a desire to protect our democracy from undue foreign influence, then we owe it to both ourselves and our democratic principles and to New Zealanders to properly answer that question. Why is Minister Little afraid to answer that question? It stinks to high heaven that he will rush this bill through to get a dirty headline saying that he\u2019s banning something when, actually, there is absolutely no proof in this legislation before us that the ban is enforceable in any way. So that\u2019s one question I have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe next question I have is exactly how Mr Little wants to define this idea that people will be banned from making donations \u201Con behalf of\u201D others. I\u2019d really like to know how the Green Party secretary is going to look into that one. The Green Party secretary in this legislation is charged with being the arbiter of whether or not someone has received the money they are donating to a party from a foreign actor. So what will the Green Party do? Will they question people and ask whether, in fact, the money was from Greenpeace, the foreign entity, or whether it was from Greenpeace, the domestic entity? I\u2019m not sure how they\u2019ll go about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI want to know what \u201Con behalf of\u201D means. I\u2019d quite like to hear some legal experts give me their views on that. I\u2019d like an opportunity for some of our scholars in New Zealand, some of the people who are experienced in examining these things from a neutral perspective, from a non-partisan perspective\u2014I would like them to have the opportunity to look hard at this bill and answer that question of whether or not \u201Con behalf of\u201D will be enforceable in our courts. Mark my words, I guarantee for you over the next six months, over the next 12 months, or so long as this legislation remains in this form, there will continue to be questions asked in New Zealand about the outsized influence foreign actors could be having in our democracy. For so long as those questions are being asked, then the Government has failed in its intent in the purpose of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EYou see, the problem is\u2014and I think Labour should\u2019ve worked this out by now\u2014window dressing works for a day or two. You can promise 100,000 KiwiBuild houses, but when you don\u2019t deliver and there\u2019s only 400, then the proof is in the pudding. In this bill, we have a grand promise\u2014we have a promise that foreign donations have been banned. Well, the members opposite hang their heads because they know that it does nothing of the sort, and if they did think it did something of the sort, they would\u2019ve been quite happy to put it through a select committee process. Actually, we could\u2019ve had a shortened process, and that would\u2019ve been absolutely fine. I\u2019m sure that we would\u2019ve preferred a longer one, but some sort of a process, some sort of scrutiny\u2014no, they have shied away from that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThen, I\u2019m left with this question of why does this regime apply to the general election but not to local government elections? What\u2019s the reason for that? Why do foreign donations matter when it comes to elections for the Parliament, but not elections for city councils? Again, no opportunity to have that question addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThen we, finally, come to this question of anonymous donations, because, under this bill, anonymous donations are still permitted. So how are we to expect that it will be checked whether an anonymous donation comes from a foreign actor or not? This bill is unable to give us an answer to that, and there has been no select committee process to answer that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIn this bill, we have a classic case of it being more important to be seen to be doing something\u2014more important for Golriz Ghahraman to get up in the House and talk about dirty money and talk about influence and talk about the joys of free speech\u2014than it is to actually put those principles into the hard, practical work of detailed legislation. Sitting here, we have members who have said that, yes, we share the Government\u2019s concern about the potential influence of foreign actors in our democracy and that we are prepared to have a conversation and work in a bipartisan manner to protect that principle\u2014to protect the principle that we will be free from foreign interference. We had an opportunity for the Minister to work with us to come up with a workable, practical regime. The Minister got impatient, he got angry, we didn\u2019t have that conversation, and New Zealand is the worse for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI did not expect to be in the House tonight speaking on the second reading of an urgent electoral amendment bill. What I would expect is that when it comes to electoral amendments, we would always have the opportunity to consider them in full, to scrutinise them, and to ensure that they do what they say they will do. I do not have that confidence in this bill, but I am confident that it is a step that is in the right direction and that it lowers the threshold for donations from foreign actors, and I absolutely support that. But what a lost opportunity we have tonight\u2014a lost opportunity to do this properly. I lament the atrocious process, I lament the lack of scrutiny, and members opposite should hang their heads in shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u00221cee2325de6b423abb26621c254a7b26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cee2325de6b423abb26621c254a7b26\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E What a negative contribution we just heard then from Opposition members who are voting for the legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aea2d7f4662c46b3808f6e94b5440041\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: You wouldn\u2019t think so, would you? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db2a8641d3d04314b26d58ba0711faef\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: You wouldn\u2019t think so, Mr McAnulty. What a negative contribution. In fact, the previous member, Nicola Willis, spent most of her speech talking about the Green Party, and that\u2019s because there are no new ideas on the other side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EHowever, on this side of the House, we have a Government who are taking action. The risk of foreign interference in our democracy is a real concern, and this bill counters this risk by limiting overseas donations to $50. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the Minister for Justice, Andrew Little, for the excellent work that he\u2019s done on this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ENow, look, most of the parties in this House are supporting this bill. We\u2019ve had lots of discussion, and I encourage the parties to get on and pass this bill, rather than give 10-minute speeches constantly being negative about the bill and then voting for it. Let\u2019s get on and pass this legislation. New Zealanders want this legislation. Let\u2019s pass it. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002290a5c984e307465a9ecbdfe4d6587d5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290a5c984e307465a9ecbdfe4d6587d5d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, I omitted to say this was a split call\u2014so, Melissa Lee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022617c3efdf86642b1a9711d275d6c4b8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022617c3efdf86642b1a9711d275d6c4b8f\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s OK. Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I understood that was the case, because I was actually lined up to speak for five minutes, so I knew exactly where I was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a pleasure to rise in the second reading. Earlier, one of my colleagues had actually said that what happens in a second reading process is that we come back from a select committee process to speak about the submissions that have happened, and we listen to the submitters and reflect on their commentary in terms of the legislation that is before us. But, unfortunately, because of the process today\u2014I mean, when I came to Parliament this week, I had no idea that we were to have an urgency motion and debate this particular bill, so I had no idea. So here we are, doing the second reading on the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2) and all its stages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI know that my colleague earlier mentioned Golriz Ghahraman. I was listening to Ms Ghahraman\u2019s speech, and one thing she mentioned, which I completely agree with, in a sense. She said, \u201CWe do not want\u201D\u2014and I hope I\u2019m getting the quote right\u2014\u201Cdemocracy bought on the open market.\u201D I don\u2019t think anyone in this House wants that. We do not want foreign interests or Governments influencing New Zealand\u2019s political process or democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EHowever, having said that, when you put the boot on the other foot and you think about what she actually says, I sort of wonder did the Green Party sell out in this process. I\u2019m not talking about legislation; I\u2019m talking about the process. Now that they\u2019re in bed with the Labour-led Government and they are part of this Government, they are OK about the truncated process of an urgency motion where we\u2019re talking about the democratic process, especially the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2). They would have never ever agreed to this process earlier, but now they\u2019re part of the Government, so now they\u2019re OK with it. So does that mean that they\u2019ve actually sold out, and does that mean that perhaps Ms Golriz Ghahraman should put a mirror in front of her face when she says, \u201CWe don\u2019t want democracy bought on the open market.\u201D? They\u2019ve sold out because they have decided, the champions of process in this House\u2014I mean, this is my fourth term, and in all the time that I\u2019ve been here I\u2019ve never known the Green Party to ever agree to an urgency motion, expect now they\u2019re in Government and they have actually sold out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis piece of legislation\u2014as I have actually alluded to in the first reading process\u2014our party is in agreement on. I mean, obviously, there will be certain things that we\u2019ll be discussing during the committee of the whole House stage. We do not want the foreign influence\u2014I know, earlier, some people said they didn\u2019t want to use the word \u201Cforeign\u201D. Well, it is exactly what it is\u2014it\u2019s foreign. We don\u2019t want foreign influence. We don\u2019t want foreign Governments to try and influence the process of New Zealand\u2019s democracy. We do not want foreign States to perhaps influence the process that we have in this Government by donating money. Restricting their donations is a good thing. As I said, why limit it to just under $50? Why not get rid of it completely? Ban it. We don\u2019t have a problem with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EEarlier, one of my colleagues said it is actually the Green Party who have the majority of the overseas donations. Perhaps they should be the ones who should actually seriously think about why they are supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIn terms of the tangible impact this bill will have in terms of the foreign donations, how much of an influence would they actually have on the political parties? I would say very minimal, because, as my colleagues have said\u2014and it has actually been admitted in this House\u2014not a lot of members or parties receive donations from overseas entities. The actual principle of wanting to ban foreign Governments from influencing New Zealand\u2019s political process, our democracy, and the democratic process is a good idea. What we object to is the process in which this whole thing is being rammed down our throats and rushed through this Parliament without the public\u2019s commentary, without a submissions process, and I think they should be ashamed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d01b02757e9e4cb49fab43e5965e9227\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d01b02757e9e4cb49fab43e5965e9227\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Split call\u2014Jami-Lee Ross. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u00229c20324e20cd49bb936f7b65a927778c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c20324e20cd49bb936f7b65a927778c\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (Botany):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I noticed in Minister Little\u2019s commentary earlier today that he said there is going to be further policy work on foreign influence in elections and other policy options being put forward. So, in that context, I wish to say to the Government: congratulations on making a step towards amending our rules around foreign interference. I say \u201Ca step\u201D because it\u2019s actually only a small step\u2014and one that I hope is built on in the future\u2014but it is fair to say that this foreign donation ban isn\u2019t really a ban on foreign donations. It\u2019s simply a moving of the threshold, where it was previously set at a $1,500 restriction on foreign persons making donations, and moving that down to $50. That is a good move in the right direction, but it does not effectively ban foreign influence in our elections. I hope that the Minister\u2019s policy work is very thorough, and I hope that the Minister\u2019s policy work comes up with a wide range of options to effectively ban foreign donations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard a lot of commentary from other speakers in this House when they\u2019ve talked about foreign influence in elections and foreign donations and asked why hasn\u2019t the Government put up a ban on corporations being able to make donations and why is that loophole still there. Most of those comments I\u2019ve heard have come from my old friends in the National Party. I also found it interesting when my old friends in the National Party said the Green Party had the majority of foreign donations\u2014\u201CWe didn\u2019t have any foreign donations.\u201D I have to say that the best example of a foreign donation that influenced a political party and a Minister of the Crown at the last election was the $150,000 that came from Inner Mongolia. Members on that side will say, \u201CNo, that wasn\u2019t a foreign donation. It was done within the law.\u201D Yes, but our law is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EOur law is wrong because our law currently\u2014and will still do so after this bill is passed\u2014allows for a Minister of the Crown to fly to China to meet an individual who then comes to New Zealand. That individual then says to the person\u2014who\u2019s, apparently, in their capacity as a member of Parliament, not as a Minister\u2014who happens to also be the trade Minister, \u201CI want to make a big donation to a political party.\u201D That person then comes and sees another MP, who is not Official Information Act request - able, and asks that MP to contact the donor\u2019s agent. That MP\u2014it happened to be me\u2014contacted that donor\u2019s agent. That donor then decided that they would make a $150,000 donation. That donation, legally, came from a New Zealand - registered company. That company is 100 percent - owned by a Chinese foreign national in Inner Mongolia. If that is not a foreign donation in the eyes of right-thinking people in \u201CPublic Land\u201D, then I don\u2019t know what is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EYes, political parties, you might be able to say, \u201CWe haven\u2019t received foreign donations that are unlawful above the $1,500.\u201D, because a company making a donation is seen as a New Zealand person. But if we have companies in this country that are owned entirely offshore that are putting $150,000 into the bank account of a New Zealand political party after meeting the Minister who\u2019s in charge of the policy area that the owner of that company is interested in, that is foreign influence in our democracy, and that is something that the policy that has been put forward in this bill does nothing to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c116cceb08b744cab1b6443a25e52a1e\u0022\u003EChris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: You did it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224355c616adee4955893e5f0a31630202\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS\u003C/span\u003E: I did it, says Mr Penk\u2014I did it, says Mr Penk. Yes, I contacted the donor\u2019s New Zealand agent and translated for them the New Zealand donation laws. I have emails on that. I\u2019ll show it to you if you want, Mr Penk. I\u2019ll show it to you at the next select committee, when you guys are slowing things down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is it is lawful for a Chinese national to own a company in New Zealand and make a $150,000 donation. It is wrong. It needs to be changed. The only effective way to ban foreign influence in our elections is to restrict who can make a donation to New Zealanders who are entitled to vote. I say quite clearly\u2014and I don\u2019t think it\u2019s controversial\u2014if you\u2019re not entitled to influence an election by voting, you should not be entitled to influence an election by donating. If a New Zealand company owned by a Chinese national cannot vote in an election, they should not be able to make $150,000 donations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThis purity that we hear from other side about \u201CThe Government hasn\u2019t put up a ban on companies.\u201D\u2014I suggest they put up a Supplementary Order Paper, but they won\u2019t, because drinking from the tap of foreign money is so beneficial when it comes to New Zealand - registered companies. It is an effective way for New Zealand parties to receive foreign money legally, but it is wrong and it needs to be outlawed, and I really hope this Government does something about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227c233a32e88845e5aeee37bebd0c2fb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c233a32e88845e5aeee37bebd0c2fb1\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have just a few points I\u2019d like to make. First of all, this bill is about one very simple thing, and that is that democracy in New Zealand is for New Zealanders; it\u2019s not for people offshore to meddle with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ETo pick up on the point the last speaker, Jami-Lee Ross, made, the fact of the matter is that the law makes it very clear that donations from overseas can\u2019t be made by overseas people or on behalf of overseas people. So to use some shadow company\u2014some Mongolian horse trader\u2014is using it as a mere conduit, and that is prohibited under this legislation. I would caution any member before they go down that track in future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThirdly, it is absolutely wrong of the other side to say that this should not be passed under urgency. That was the Government some years ago who ripped the guts out of democracy in Christchurch when they appointed commissioners to Environment Canterbury under urgency, in the dark of night. So it does not lie in their mouths now to say that we shouldn\u2019t be improving our electoral law under urgency, because this is a Government that wants a better democracy, and it wants it now. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00226db8e15a1ce24d11bffcb0bf6dcf0218\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226db8e15a1ce24d11bffcb0bf6dcf0218\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, it\u2019s a pleasure to rise and contribute to what is the second reading of the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2). I want to just take a moment to reflect on the contribution from Golriz Ghahraman. Golriz said that this is a good day for democracy, and I want to reflect on this statement in particular and ask the House some questions here today. Is it a good day for democracy when the very processes that have been put in place to guard our democracy are curtailed? Is that a good day for democracy? I genuinely ask that to the House. Is it a good day for democracy when we do not hear from the public on matters of importance such as this? The answer to that is clearly no. It was just amazing for me to watch Golriz Ghahraman speak in that tone when, clearly, this is not a good day for democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ETo what my colleague the Hon Nick Smith said, we have a fantastic reputation in New Zealand and around the world for being a free, uncorrupt society. I\u2019ve lived right across the world. I\u2019ve had a chance to work in some pretty corrupt countries myself\u2014countries like Kazakhstan, countries like Ukraine\u2014and I can say that it is a sad day for democracy that we do not have the opportunity to discuss bills like this through the democratic means and that we do not have an opportunity to hear from the public about a simple law with respect to banning foreign donations. We in New Zealand have to guard our reputation very seriously, and I don\u2019t think it\u2019s in the interests of New Zealand\u2019s democracy to have such a short process for this bill that we are discussing tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI ask the other side of the House: why is it that we cannot have at least a week of select committee? A week would do it. I honestly haven\u2019t received an answer in the whole time that I\u2019ve been in the House today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve heard loud and clear today about how shoddy this process has been, that we\u2019ve been put into urgency and that the business of the House and of all select committees, by way of urgency, have been pushed aside so that the very processes that have been the foundation of our democracy are curtailed to pass this law. I still haven\u2019t heard on the other side of the House\u2014and I would encourage members to take a call and simply answer that question\u2014why are we in this process of urgency right now when we could have even a week or two to consider this important bill? We also want to look at ways to improve our foreign donations. We also have an interest in guarding New Zealand\u2019s reputation as our uncorrupt society throughout the world, but we also want to make sure that the rules of democracy are protected and that we hear from those that these laws are going to affect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EWe have today heard some very valid points, right here from my colleague Nicola Willis. We\u2019ve had some great questions from here around: does this bill actually address the problems that we\u2019re trying to solve? I think it\u2019s a bad day for democracy when we have a bill that is designed to solve a problem that is non-existent or that doesn\u2019t solve the correct problem that we wish to solve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThere are questions that we\u2019ve raised today around why this law is not applicable to local body elections. We\u2019ve heard from the likes of Duncan Webb that it is to protect democracy for New Zealanders, but having read the bill, it is not clear to me that non-residents who are based in New Zealand cannot give to a political party. For example, if you are a non-citizen resident here on a working visa, can you donate to a political party? Anybody from the other side of the House, can you answer me that simple question? This is crickets\u2014the silence is deafening. We can\u2019t even answer the basic question of whether a foreign citizen who is based here on a New Zealand visa can donate to a political party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ENow, these are the questions that the select committee would\u2019ve been able to delve into. We would\u2019ve been able to actually have experts come in and give us advice on how to structure the law in such a way as to protect New Zealand\u2019s democracy from foreign interference. But we have already heard of a number of instances where we are possibly leaving ourselves short on the purposes of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThe principles of this bill\u2014of course we support greater tightening of rules to protect New Zealand\u2019s democracy. Of course we support greater transparency. That is why we\u2019re still asking questions from the New Zealand First Party. How does this law apply to the trusts that they have? We still don\u2019t have any answer from New Zealand First about their foundation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022923efe10be924398879aa0f0d38acafa\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: What about the Inner Mongolian donations? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c31a2e42163148409803109341819bdf\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: Take a call\u2014take a call, Clare Curran, because we would love to know why the Labour Party are supporting a law, yet you\u2019ve said nothing about the New Zealand First Foundation that has been uncovered so far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ESo it is a bad day for democracy. It is a bad day for good policy-making in this House, and it\u2019s a bad day for a whole host of other reasons, not to mention that the select committees are not meeting tomorrow. It\u2019s because we are an urgency that they are not meeting, and I\u2019m glad to see the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, Rino Tirikatene, here, because we were scheduled to discuss some very important aspects tomorrow and, unfortunately, we\u2019re not going to get to that because we are here under urgency for no apparent reason. All we can deduce is that we are here because the Labour Party received a bad poll and they want a feel-good factor\u2014something to go out there with and say, \u201CLook at what we\u2019ve done. This is what we call the year of delivery. We have banned foreign donations from New Zealand.\u201D Well, that is a shoddy way to make policy in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EIt is a shocking day for democracy, and all we can say is that we have the committee of the whole House later on tonight, or tomorrow, and I would appreciate answers to our questions from the other side of the House today. Who does this apply to and not apply to? How are there\u2014that\u2019s right. I\u2019m getting arms up in the air from David Seymour, so he\u2019s in the same position as well. We\u2019ve got an electoral amendment bill\u2014we do think it is a bad day for democracy. This has nothing to do with donations of trusts, which the last few weeks have uncovered is a serious issue for the House and a serious issue for political parties in New Zealand, yet this bill doesn\u2019t even touch on that. It doesn\u2019t touch on the fact that if you are a foreigner living in New Zealand under a work permit or a visa, there are still avenues for you to donate. We\u2019ll be opposed to those things, even though we support the bill in its stage. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u002242ccbfe0ebde44eda4220fbec06d19e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242ccbfe0ebde44eda4220fbec06d19e1\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The issue raised by Jami-Lee Ross with regard to the \u201CInner Mongolian Horse Co.\u201D, or whatever it was called, which is currently under investigation by the Serious Fraud Office, relates to the transmission rules for donations. I just want to point out to the House and for those who haven\u2019t done their homework, and I advise that they do, that it is currently unlawful\u2014in six provisions, actually\u2014under the Electoral Act for overseas entities to give money to a New Zealander who then donates to a candidate or party. Should I repeat that? Anyway, it is currently unlawful in six provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe problem is\u2014and this is where the issue arises\u2014around adequate enforcement and around the definitions of eligible business and unincorporated bodies. Now, what this bill does is two things in relation to this which provide useful measures to move towards addressing these things. It lowers the bar for foreign donations to $50, and it raises the bar for due diligence of scrutiny of those donations. Now, it may not deal with all of the issues, but it\u2019s moving in the right direction, and I would recommend that those members read the Electoral Act before they get up to speak again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cd07b264204f4862acbc8891df8cc444\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Electoral Amendment Bill (No\u00A02) be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 119\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; New Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; Ross. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2961f1fbd3343c6a2027de164bae5c6\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022b090ad10669f491187908af82ed1892c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b090ad10669f491187908af82ed1892c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Given the House is at three minutes to 10 and we\u2019ve been in urgency for the afternoon, by the time the Chair of the committee establishes the committee of the whole House, you\u2019ll have to report progress. I seek leave for the House to be adjourned until 9 o\u2019clock tomorrow morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00227754f9fcb1d9414bbafdc5815f5f2a78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227754f9fcb1d9414bbafdc5815f5f2a78\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, we don\u2019t adjourn the House. We will continue in committee tomorrow morning, and if we go into committee, the Chair can then suspend the House until 9 o\u2019clock tomorrow. So you withdraw your request? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9557b4c25d1455abfc2bdb4cda89cfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9557b4c25d1455abfc2bdb4cda89cfc\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d0b4db221b57424e9373c600f7c40fc5\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments relating to overseas donations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00224c9347a0bb1949bc87d64d30edce4777\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c9347a0bb1949bc87d64d30edce4777\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I look forward to this very important stage of the House and the extensive time we\u2019ll have available for the remainder of this session. This bill is very important. It does a very important thing. It\u2019s meaningful, it\u2019s real, it deals with a serious risk, and it will make a serious difference for the conduct by parties and their general secretaries to make sure that our electoral system has integrity. It\u2019s not called the electoral integrity bill; it is called the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2), but it is about integrity. What is similar between this bill and that bill of the other name is the catastrophising that goes on by members opposite, and they do it every time there\u2019s a very minor but important technical change to our law, as it is in this case. But this bill and this part of the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022943cd96a59fd48c494197263af02a6e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022943cd96a59fd48c494197263af02a6e6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to advise the Minister, but the time has come for me to leave the Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191203f975dfa92b3048a2ba574b0bdf0a5780000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f89b1e81bf4747939737da99cd718b68\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 3 DECEMBER 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002288369cb0ef0b42dd99ad185058d8b966\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 4 December 2019)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002223b4eae936ef479d8ea19ef6e5a36d70\u0022\u003EElectoral Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c878ff27ba24df598350b9210fefb1a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00228a1d33f8476c40389cd86eef7cd479a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a1d33f8476c40389cd86eef7cd479a7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: M\u014Drena mai r\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. The House in committee on the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2). When we were considering the bill last night, we were debating Part 1. The Hon Andrew Little had the call, and he has four minutes and 28 seconds remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002227e6c0ee85774b49957fdc59c1a27253\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments relating to overseas donations (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00225c199bbf2f7f4975b0bf29d20fa80b6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c199bbf2f7f4975b0bf29d20fa80b6a\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. It\u2019s very nice to be back to resume the debate. So we\u2019re in Part 1. Clause 5 is very much the operative part when it comes to the actual ban on foreign donations. Clause 5 amends various parts of section 207 of the Electoral Act, and it makes it clear that a donation, or at least even an offer of value in kind, over $50 to a political party or a candidate from a foreign source\u2014and the definition of \u201Coverseas person\u201D remains unchanged in the legislation\u2014constitutes a foreign donation. If it\u2019s over $50, that is banned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI draw the committee\u2019s attention to clause 8 and 10 of the bill. Clause 8 inserts a new section 207JA, which is the duty to ascertain whether a donation is from an overseas person. It\u2019s a duty that is reposed in the party general secretary of any party, or a candidate, and says, \u201CA candidate or party secretary who receives a donation (not being an anonymous donation)\u201D\u2014that is defined\u2014\u201Cthat exceeds $50 must take all reasonable steps in the circumstances to ascertain whether [that donation came from an overseas person]\u201D. Again, \u201Coverseas person\u201D is defined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThat is supported by as well clause 10, which amends section 207L and adds in a defence to a charge of a candidate or a party having received a foreign donation in excess of the $50 threshold. I think it\u2019s instructive to look at the words of that defence provision, because it says, \u201CIt is a defence to a charge under subsection (2) if the candidate or party secretary proves that he or she took all reasonable steps in the circumstances to ascertain that\u201D. I want to go to the operative provision, which is paragraph (b) of subsection (3) of the amended section 207L\u2014\u201Cthere were no reasonable grounds to suspect that a donation exceeding $50 \u2026 was made by or on behalf of an overseas person.\u201D So a combination of the positive duty on the party general secretary or candidate in the new section 207JA, plus, if that is followed by a charge for having breached that or failed to exercise that duty, the defence which makes it very clear that there were no reasonable grounds to suspect that the donation came from an overseas source, covers off the situation, for example, of a $150,000 donation coming from the New Zealand Mongolian Thoroughbred Racing\u2014whatever\u2014Ltd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s interesting that an amendment tabled this morning in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith seeks to make an amendment and refers, in relation to the candidate donation or party donation, to change the definition in the current Act to say, instead of \u201Cto any person on the candidate\u2019s behalf\u201D, \u201Cto any person on the candidate\u2019s behalf or to any incorporated or unincorporated foundation or trust that is associated with or supports the candidate.\u201D And the same applies, mutatis mutandis, to a party donation, according to this amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo the real question is: why would the National Party not want to provide for the situation where a suspicious donation comes from a registered company in New Zealand that references an overseas country? Why would they do that? There is something they are trying to hide, and there is something they are trying to conceal, and that says that they come to this House on this particular issue saying that they support the bill but, actually, there\u2019s something they don\u2019t want this House to know. That\u2019s why I so eagerly await the Justice Committee\u2019s report on these issues. It hasn\u2019t come out. I don\u2019t know why. Surely, the Justice Committee must have got hold of the information\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022581d029b51474174b7980c99697ce266\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I know that the Minister has a degree of frustration about the proper deliberations of the select committee, but it is totally unparliamentary to come into this Chamber and attack the committee\u2019s proceedings in a committee debate, or any debate on the floor of the Parliament, while there is still consideration going on by a committee over any particular matter, before it is reported to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257606baeec394cef95152a30ebac3d22\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to thank the member. Yes, I think the Minister is about to step over a line that he should not. He needs to bring his k\u014Drero back to the content of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235fe5512e8c04d45a9a17f97a4421c08\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman. So the point is that we now have, in this bill, provisions that cover off the sorts of things that New Zealanders are concerned about when it comes to donations to political parties, not reflected in the amendment from the National Party member, and this House might have questions about why that might be the case. But the operative parts of this bill, which makes an amendment to address the serious and growing risk that democracies around the world face of foreign influence and foreign interference, are covered off very neatly by the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, I think members have said around the House\u2014and indeed some of the commentary has been\u2014\u201CWouldn\u2019t it be great if this was more comprehensive?\u201D I totally understand that proposition, but that is not the circumstance we\u2019re in. It\u2019s not possible to do a thoroughgoing overhaul of our electoral laws in time for the 2020 general election, because of the delay in getting a report back and the customary inquiry into the most recent general election. So we\u2019re stuck with what we\u2019ve got. That is to make sure that an obvious and palpable risk to the integrity of our democracy\u2014we have a moral duty to address. We have a moral duty to the citizens of New Zealand, knowing that that risk is there, knowing the publicly delivered evidence of a number of submitters to the Justice Committee about that risk. We have to do something about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut it is equally clear, and I\u2019ve said to the House and I\u2019ve confirmed publicly the advice that I\u2019ve received, that our Electoral Act has a number of gaps and loopholes in it, and it could do with a thoroughgoing review from the ground up. That has to happen, but that is a very thorough process; it is a process that will take some time. It needs to happen, but it won\u2019t happen in the remaining life of this Parliament. That should not stop us doing what we need to do to create an effective bar or inhibitor to a risk that we know is very real. That\u2019s what these provisions in Part 1 of the bill seek to do, and no amount of finger pointing or putting up amendments that leave even bigger gaps is going to change that particular proposition. So we can draw upon all sorts of fantasised constitutional principles; the reality is that this part of our constitution, the Electoral Act, which creates the rules that govern the exercise of democracy by New Zealand citizens in their country, in this great country\u2014we must make sure those rules deal with the threats and the risks that are very real and very apparent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EClause 5, which deals with the actual ban, and clauses 8 and 10, which cover off other attendant risks, achieves that change in time for next year. I\u2019m appreciative of the support given so far by all members of the House but one, because this is an important exercise that we undertake, and this is the process now through the committee stage to get a thoroughgoing examination. But I just invite members who are proposing amendments and proposing alternatives that there has to be integrity in those amendments as well. They\u2019ve got to cover off the real risks. They should not wilfully avoid dealing with what we know are risks from past experience in the conduct of elections in this country before as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo that is the approach that this bill takes. It is based on the evidence that we know, evidence put before the Justice Committee so far, a very real risk noted and acknowledged around the country, and it achieves a level of protection that we have not had before. So, on that basis, Mr Chairman, I will conclude my comments. I look forward to the remainder of the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbb93aec770e4934b609832c312e7e7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbb93aec770e4934b609832c312e7e7b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019re in the extraordinary position of all select committees being deferred, of this bill being rushed through in less than 24 hours and making significant changes to our electoral law, and of a Government that\u2019s been panicked by the incredible mess in New Zealand First with the foundation and so is trying to create a diversion with this bill and the provisions in Part 1. I, firstly, want to question the motive of how you can possibly improve democracy by bypassing democracy, in that if these issues are real\u2014and, actually, I gave a speech on behalf of the National Party at the beginning of the year suggesting tightening in this area of law\u2014why is it necessary to do what has been widely described by the media as terrible lawmaking? Terrible lawmaking, that\u2019s what the Parliament\u2019s doing this morning\u2014terrible lawmaking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister of Justice has attempted to justify it on the basis that there\u2019s this swarm of foreign donations. Let\u2019s look at what the regulatory impact statement said about the issues that are covered in clauses 4 to 14. It said that over the last seven years, the number of foreign donations to the Labour Party each year has averaged two per year. To the National Party, we\u2019ve had an average of three per year, and the New Zealand First Party has had an average of four foreign donations per year. The Green Party may be interested, because they have championed the issue of the ban of foreign donations, that the regulatory impact statement says that the Green Party has received 60 foreign donations per year\u201460. And I do have to challenge the Green Party and say: there is something of a double standard in being the champion of banning foreign donations and actually receiving more than 20 times more than any other political party in this Parliament. But before the Parliament gets into the mind of this being a crisis, can I also give some further information. The average value of those foreign donations is $66 per donation. So we\u2019re talking about an issue that involves a total level of contributions to political parties in New Zealand of $5,000 per year. Can anybody in this Parliament, including the Minister, put hand on heart and just say that $5,000 of donations per year justifies the Parliament ramming this through and being part of what is widely described as terrible lawmaking? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to come to the specifics of clause 5, because I have a very detailed question, an important question, for the Minister. Clause 5 sets out the issues of who is defined as a foreign person, and I want to take a very serious question on this. In my 29 years in this Parliament, the one proven case of fraud resulting in a member of Parliament going to jail was Labour MP Phillip Field. It was over the issue of taking donations for getting people New Zealand residency. Is there a member in this Parliament that doesn\u2019t know the extreme pressure of people wanting to get residency? We get it every day. Well, here\u2019s the issue. The way that a foreign person is defined in clause 5 means that any person that\u2019s in New Zealand on a temporary permit, such as a work permit, or someone that\u2019s claiming refugee status is defined as not being foreign. Now, let\u2019s be honest as a Parliament. If there is a risk of donations under $1,500 inappropriately influencing a decision\u2014and there\u2019s been, actually, very good debate with the Minister of Immigration about a recent case in which it was unexplainable as to why a person that was convicted of various serious drug offences was given residency. It is my view that there is a risk\u2014a real risk\u2014of corruption in New Zealand, of people that are desperate to get into and to stay in this beautiful country that we share, and that we should be cautious of our political system being used and manipulated to allow those people to make a political donation and then to get New Zealand residency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo my question for the Minister is: what is intended in clause 5? Because it says that a person who resides in New Zealand\u2014i.e., a person on a work permit or a person who\u2019s claiming refugee status\u2014would be allowed to make a political donation. Well, that\u2019s a bit weird, isn\u2019t it? You can see that while you would want to have a person who maybe is a New Zealand\u2014this is not a person who\u2019d be allowed to enrol; they\u2019re not allowed to vote. Why is the Government saying these people should be allowed to make a political donation but shouldn\u2019t be allowed to vote? Don\u2019t we recognise the scandal of the Phillip Field case and the risk of corruption in that area? And so my question relates to that provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow I want to come to my amendment that I\u2019ve tabled, because here\u2019s the extraordinary part: if we are concerned about money influence in politics, the issue that the country has been focused on are the issues with New Zealand First. They did not declare a single donation at the last election. At the last election, they had 10 times more anonymous donations than any other political party. The president and the treasurer of New Zealand First resigned in the last two months, saying that there were moral issues about their finances. And so everybody up and down New Zealand\u2014in fact, the political commentariat\u2014is saying that the scandal that is engulfing New Zealand First has the capacity to bring down this Government. So when this House is under urgency and it\u2019s dealing with issues of donations, you would expect the issue would be \u201CWell, let\u2019s sort out that issue of foundations.\u201D It\u2019s interesting that not the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, not a single Labour member, not a single Green member has said boo about the scandal involving New Zealand First. I\u2019d love to know whether Marama Davidson thinks what\u2019s going on within New Zealand First is acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022204e6d70447d46858157f09c243c9392\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Tacit consent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257457a0cff1048a3b18a7f4a9a26e84c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Tacit consent\u2014she\u2019s OK with what\u2019s going on within New Zealand First. Well, I just want to simply do a simple thing with this amendment. If we are going to define a party donation, why not include the foundations? Why not include the obligation on New Zealand First? I think it\u2019s a rort. I think it is a rort that a secret foundation of New Zealand First at the last general election received $500,000 in donations. Here\u2019s the bizarre part: the New Zealand First Foundation can go out next week with this law and get a million-dollar donation from a Russian friend, and that would be quite lawful because the foundation is not a political party. And as so many commentators have said in the last 24 hours on this rushed law, it leaves loopholes untouched all over the place. So why would Government members not support closing the loophole today around foundations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c628ae4f3ebc427ba60a584d39409546\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Because they\u2019re corrupt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022002e6d112b4240af8f5dc9c7b76d5dfe\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I think I know why. You know why? The only reason they are on the Government benches\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd5639fbd6ac4623ace229e57cd51846\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise to the member speaking, I\u2019m very hesitant in interrupting his speech, but for the second time this morning I\u2019ve heard an unparliamentary term being called out by way of interjection. I think for this debate to have the integrity that it deserves, we need to make sure that such interjections should remain parliamentary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff38874cf08c42769de8da4c0981e9de\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. While it was a most unparliamentary comment that was made, there was no immediate offence taken to the comment from the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e410105b096410d97a052881123ae30\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I did not hear whatever comment that was, but if any member feels they have broken that rule, then they should stand and withdraw the comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c59e8469fd0476bbbaacd8c6f345f34\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: So I take issue with the provisions in Part 2 that leave a gap absolutely wide open around the issue of foundations, when it is on everybody\u2019s lips, from Kait\u0101ia to Bluff, the rort that has gone on within New Zealand First. So I would urge members opposite to get to their feet and say that if we are serious about improving the integrity of our electoral system, why we would not include, within the definition of such a donation, foundations that have been set up by parties like New Zealand First, solely\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213c957ad72694c98ab996020a23261c6\u0022\u003EClayton Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8d83b90b06743189249110bc579a1a1\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014with the reason of getting round the electoral law. We\u2019re more than happy to be open with our foundation. I hear the colleague from New Zealand First\u2014will he be supporting the amendment to include the foundations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf55f18f2db849e4a1248c34132643d9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That was your foundation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d987fbebdd654a0191d628f583521388\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: We declare everything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9bea0e45c3e4cdba225bcaa62f6499d\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: We declare everything. So I ask the question of New Zealand First: do you support the inclusion of the foundation in the declaration of donations? Does the Green Party support foundations that are set up by political parties being included?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245f6543e403c48eca2f2cee9ec9711ff\u0022\u003EMarama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: A whole lot of reform there, Mr Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fec856cd657a41c1a3b9e673de0876c7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Not prepared to answer a very simple question\u2014I\u2019ll tell you why. The only reason they\u2019re on the Government benches is because of the decision of New Zealand First. We have the unusual situation where the party that got the most votes and won the most seats is not the Government. That is because of New Zealand First\u2019s decision. The public have a right to know who was funding New Zealand First; that has been kept secret. That is immoral and that is wrong in our electoral system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002238eadb6ac58140c694532f0c58161db6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238eadb6ac58140c694532f0c58161db6\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In this committee of the whole House stage of the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2), it\u2019s important that we actually take what little opportunity we have to interrogate the detail of this, to give the debate the dignity that it deserves\u2014or, actually, probably quite a lot more given how truncated the process has been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ELet me start by trying to understand a bit of what\u2019s in the Minister of Justice\u2019s head, to which he alluded to in yesterday\u2019s debate, about, basically, the interpretation of what he sees as an appropriate practice for prosecuting potential offences under this. Minister Little talked about a scenario where, basically, the more that a donation exceeds $50 the more scrutiny should be applied to a possible breach. That might be a reasonable sort of point for the Minister to make, but I don\u2019t think it\u2019s reasonable for him to be pontificating on that in a way that suggests that decision-making bodies should take it into account, but not have it included it in the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, looking at clause 5, which, as the Minister rightly says, is the main sort of operative provision, I would like the Minister or the Minister in his stead, Peeni Henare, to answer where in the definition section 207(2) of \u201Ccandidate donation\u201D or \u201Cparty donation\u201D do we have reflected this idea of proportionality\u2014that the higher the amount the more scrutiny would be applied. I\u2019m happy that between $0 and $50, there\u2019s none, because that\u2019s not an offence\u2014that\u2019s fine; that\u2019s fair enough as far as it goes. But after that we\u2019ve got on record from the current Minister of Justice, who\u2019s introducing a reform bill\u2014you know, modest as it is\u2014a suggestion from him about the way that the law should be applied, and that is not recorded in the law itself. If the committee of the whole House stage is to have any meaning whatsoever, then it must be that the Minister can actually explain what he means by that, and, more particularly, his appetite for considering a change that we ourselves on this side of the House might put in if he\u2019s not willing or prepared to do it. I\u2019m assuming that the Green Party or other coalition colleagues or support party colleagues haven\u2019t done so. That\u2019s a serious miss if that\u2019s something that\u2019s sort of on the table, generally speaking, in terms of the law reform, but actually doesn\u2019t exist anywhere but in the Minister\u2019s head. So that\u2019s the first thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe second question that I\u2019d like to be answered by the Minister relates to the definition of \u201Coverseas person\u201D. We\u2019ve got here in clause 5(5)(a) discussion of an individual, probably a natural person\u2014fine\u2014who resides outside of New Zealand, but it doesn\u2019t actually have any more detail about that. Does that mean simply that the person cannot reside outside New Zealand at the time that they make the donation? Does it mean that they must have resided in New Zealand to qualify as a non-overseas person? Maybe just during the election campaign period. Maybe during election year. Maybe during the three-year term for which the donation relates. Maybe since writ day, if we want to get a little bit more refined. There are a number of different answers that could be given to that, all of which might be reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut the fact of the matter is that all we\u2019ve got is just, in the present tense, an individual who resides outside New Zealand will be disqualified. Well, does that mean that someone who is a New Zealand resident who goes overseas\u2014perhaps on a holiday, for example; just a private individual perfectly entitled to go overseas on a holiday\u2014if they make the donation at that time, that that is a donation by an overseas person? So these are pretty serious questions in terms of the way that the law will be applied and understood, and I\u2019d like to think that this is an answer that the Minister can give for at least a little bit of direction, seeing as he hasn\u2019t troubled to spell it out more clearly in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI anticipate that the Minister might say \u201CWell, this meaning of \u2018overseas person\u2019 exists elsewhere.\u201D, and it simply would have the same kind of interpretation applied to it. In the first instance, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s satisfactory, if that\u2019s sort of where he intends to go, simply because the whole point of rewriting a law is that you do it in as clear a way as possible. Certainly, loopholes and other shortfalls that can be identified at the committee of the whole House stage should be rectified at this stage, so it would be a relatively easy Supplementary Order Paper\u2014a stroke of a pen, really. Again, I\u2019d offer to potentially do some work on that if he can indicate that he\u2019s amenable to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut, at the same time, I also don\u2019t think it\u2019s appropriate for us to leave open this question about what it means to reside outside New Zealand simply by talking about the existence of another definition. If that\u2019s the approach, then surely we should just say that an \u201Coverseas person\u201D has the same meaning in some other statute or perhaps another\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227885c1fdf867400492a5acf02dacfc1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227885c1fdf867400492a5acf02dacfc1d\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E So here we are taking up quite a bit of Parliament\u2019s extra time where select committees could have been sitting and progressing some of the matters that might have improved the general statistics around the year of delivery for the Government\u2014although, that would be a pretty hard call to make. So we are here trying to solve a $66 problem. That\u2019s the average amount of donation, as pointed out by my colleague Dr Nick Smith, received anonymously by political parties at the last election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228edf856df3264651853995d9f9574e56\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e77893310804702b744374ac75383c8\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: $66. That\u2019s why we\u2019re here today, to change the law to make a $16 difference in the average amount of anonymous donation that has to be declared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EYou can\u2019t help thinking that this is in the House today because the Government had a very bad week last week. The Government had a particularly bad weekend just before the House resumed on Tuesday. I think the Prime Minister gave her Ministers a bit of a hurry up, and said, \u201CRight, we\u2019ve got to get on the front foot. We\u2019re being buried by this New Zealand First anonymous donation scandal, so we need to put something out there that tells the people of New Zealand that we\u2019re on the case.\u201D Andrew Little would have said \u201CI\u2019ve got something: I can solve the $66 problem.\u201D by coming to the House with this amendment bill that we\u2019re dealing with today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBut the real question is: why is there no reference, as Dr Smith has said, to the foundations or other entities that are set up to support political parties? Why is there no reference to that? Now, we have, in the name of Dr Nick Smith, an amendment to the bill that would put those foundations under the same regime as anybody else. The National Party has a foundation; we declare every donation to that foundation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe real question is: where did the $840,000 that New Zealand First received in the lead-up to the 2017 election come from? Where did it come from, this $500,000 into this capital-funded foundation and $340,000 into their campaign itself? All anonymous; no declarations at all. But here we have them colluding with the Government to take up Parliament\u2019s time, to solve a problem about a few people from offshore who save up their pennies and send their $66 to the Green Party\u2014because they\u2019re the ones who are the major beneficiaries of anonymous donations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EJust think about the numbers, again, given by Dr Smith this morning: two for Labour; three for National, so we got our, you know, nearly $200; four for New Zealand First, that apparently was only a small fraction, around $250 of the unexplained $840,000; and then 10, about $660 to $700, for the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re here solving that problem to make sure that in future, all of those donations, coming to around about 15 donations\u2014so, what\u2019s that? About 15\u2014oh, I can\u2019t think how much it is. A very tiny amount. A very tiny amount\u2014a very tiny amount. But this bill does not deal with the issue that New Zealanders are struggling with at the moment, and that is the high and mighty, finger-pointing exercise at everybody else by New Zealand First while there is no explanation for the $840,000 that made its way into their kitty in the 2017 year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo the amendment that\u2019s been put up by Dr Smith would mean that that sort of arrangement comes under the scrutiny of the Electoral Commission. Mind you, let\u2019s be clear that if the Electoral Commission do use the legislation they\u2019ve got now, then New Zealand First is in some trouble\u2014no question about that\u2014but that is something for them to announce, not for us to announce here in the House today. What I will say is simply this: if we are going to have Parliament\u2019s time taken up on an electoral amendment bill dealing with issues that are pressing, it cannot be the $66 anonymous donations declared by parties; it has to be about the $840,000 undeclared by New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022450117c5d855453497c118dd2c83a5cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022450117c5d855453497c118dd2c83a5cb\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, the committee stage of any debate in the House, of course, is every member\u2019s opportunity to ask questions and to raise important issues on the measure that\u2019s under consideration, and it\u2019s deeply concerning that, yet again, here we have the Government parties\u2014Labour, New Zealand First, and the Greens\u2014with their heads down, making no effort to get involved in the debate. But it\u2019s particularly important when there\u2019s been no select committee process and no opportunity for the public\u2014and, particularly, legal experts, who we rely upon\u2014to ensure that we get important measures right. They\u2019ve had no such opportunity because of this rushed process under urgency, so it\u2019s doubly important for all members of the House to be fully involved in thorough and appropriate scrutiny. I do hope that the Minister who\u2019s in the chair at the moment, Peeni Henare, who I know is an honourable man and who I\u2019m sure will take a close interest in it, will engage respectfully and fully, because I\u2019ve got a number of questions, and my colleagues Dr Nick Smith, Chris Penk, and the Hon Gerry Brownlee have raised a number. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI want to draw his attention to the general policy statement in this electoral amendment bill, in which it makes clear that the Minister\u2019s purpose is for the bill to make several changes to the Electoral Act 1993 to send a clear signal that only those who are part of New Zealand\u2019s democracy and who live in or who have a strong connection to this country should participate in our electoral system. Well, I approve of that, and, as you know, all members on this side of the House, with the exception of the ACT Party, are supporting this bill as well, so there\u2019s no debate over that important principle. But I have a very important question, which I hope the Minister is going to answer, which is: if that is the case, why is it only applying to parliamentary elections? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWe have two important triennial election processes, and I would suggest that if, as Minister Little has said, the risks of undue influence and interference are very real\u2014and I agree with his statement\u2014why has he exempted half of those two triennial processes from this bill? Surely, the risk of electoral malpractice at the local level is just as great and should be dealt with in exactly the same way, because if we\u2019re going to have what is being described as substantial reform to our political system in an attempt to prevent foreign interference in our elections, it should apply to all our elections to ensure that there is consistency and to ensure that those who may have ill intent towards us don\u2019t have an opportunity to get around it at the parliamentary level just by going through the door at the local government level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ELocal elections have the potential to be just as susceptible to foreign interference as parliamentary elections, and possibly more so. So I hope that the Minister is going to respond to that, because local government decision-making is often less well-scrutinised and doesn\u2019t receive the same media attention that we receive in this House as central government decision-making. So surely it\u2019s important that the measures are consistent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe next thing, of course, is he\u2019s got to give an answer to the question that we have asked repeatedly now for several hours as we\u2019ve gone through the first two readings and the committee stage, which is why on earth are we having this urgency at all? There\u2019s been no consultation with the Opposition. The changes were announced while we were in the middle of our caucus meeting yesterday, so the opportunity to deal with them was really only during the lunch adjournment before we came into the House in question time. That is insulting. That is totally inappropriate. More importantly, it flies in the face of well-established constitutional convention that electoral reform measures are done with the best of consultation, with the best of agreement and consensus across the House, and with the best of expert involvement, because it is so important that political parties don\u2019t enact electoral measures to their own advantage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why, last night, I used the term \u201Cscrew the scrum\u201D to the Government\u2019s advantage, which the Hon Tracey Martin objected to, and I didn\u2019t get a chance to reply to her then. It\u2019s the fact that they have not followed that well-established and very important constitutional convention, and I ask them to explain the urgency and to explain why they\u2019ve flown in the face of very well-established and important constitutional procedure. I hope that the Minister will take a call to explain that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI want to move on in the time remaining\u2014I hope that I get a second call\u2014to a number of other questions that I\u2019ve got for the Minister, because he\u2019ll be aware of the fact that a number of commentators, last night and this morning, have been decrying what is happening here. Nobody objects to what the intent is, but they believe that this is very poor lawmaking, as is so often the case when measures are introduced under urgency, in a rushed and non-consultative way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that is poorly drafted. It won\u2019t fulfil all of the Government\u2019s clearly stated objectives\u2014that\u2019s not just my opinion; that\u2019s the opinion of constitutional experts who have been watching what\u2019s been going on. Now, some of them might just be dismissed as people who wouldn\u2019t necessarily favour the Government, but I think that would be a very simplistic approach for the Minister and his Government to take. So let me put some of their concerns to the Minister and see if he can respond. From Jordan Williams, we\u2019ve got, in a media release that I saw early this morning: \u201CJustice Minister\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220404b43966744ad2922ff80f25c8a989\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Was that his apology? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e56acf2f6416431a96a40a290135efbf\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221abc3178247a42b6967e8b5941f24c00\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Ministers should not interject from the chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d95bf098c5f440eb8efe654222bc400\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I was about to say that Jordan Williams, in a reply this morning, asked \u201CJustice Minister Andrew Little to clarify whether the ban on foreign donations to political parties will also prevent foreign donations made via \u2018foundations\u2019 connected to political parties.\u201D, and that was the very important point that both the Hon Dr Nick Smith and the Hon Gerry Brownlee were making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWe must have an answer to that question. It would be totally unacceptable for this debate to conclude without that question being very clearly and appropriately answered, because that is the issue that the commentators, and that\u2019s the issue that the public, want to know about. That\u2019s the thing that is raising most public concern, and we\u2019ve got to get that right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EMr Williams went on to say that \u201CIf a ban on foreign donations results in more political parties setting up \u2018independent\u2019 foundations to accept donations on their behalf or for their benefit, then this law could end up having a negative effect on transparency.\u201D How does the Government respond to that really important\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc77d570d1dd40f0b0e900e7f4d9c064\u0022\u003EChris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: Good point\u2014unintended consequences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282dc2618df384dd684eda0e2c3a54636\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014observation, which, as Mr Penk has just said, effectively amounts to not just unintended consequences but deeply adverse chilling consequences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EMr Williams concluded: \u201CThis kind of difficulty in the detail is why important legislation should go through the scrutiny of a select committee process, rather than being rushed through under extraordinary urgency.\u201D Well, it\u2019s not extraordinary urgency, but I know what he means. It is under urgency and it\u2019s totally inappropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe Government needs to respond to all of that, and, as I\u2019ve said, the rushed nature of this particular measure has been the subject of considerable speculation and comment in this morning\u2019s media. I was watching The AM Show earlier and I heard Duncan Garner opining on this at some length. So I want to ask the Minister how does he respond to Duncan Garner\u2019s opinion on this morning\u2019s AM Show when he\u2014Mr Garner\u2014also asked why is the measure being rushed through the House under urgency when the reason for doing so has not been explained. Unless I\u2019ve been asleep\u2014and I don\u2019t think I have been\u2014can anybody tell me if we\u2019ve had an explanation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233102899ffb4439991e26d2d400ade5d\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022922682cd8acc49f783c6afd31daaed05\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014not one. No one speaking in this debate at any stage has explained to us why this measure is being rushed through under urgency, when there is so much support for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EIf the process was being conducted in a much more respectful and collegial way, we could all be bringing the best of our minds to it, taking on board the expert opinion we would have heard through the select committee process, and ensuring that we have a law that is fit for purpose and that achieves the objectives we\u2019re all committed to, rather than having another piece of rushed legislation from a Minister who adopts his arrogant \u201CI know best\u201D approach, which we have seen so often and where, quite clearly, we will have flawed, imperfect law with loopholes in it, and\u2014as Mr Williams noted this morning\u2014it has the potential to make things worse by not bringing these murky foundations under its ambit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why I am strongly in support of my colleague Dr Nick Smith\u2019s amendment. I commend it to the committee. He simply wants to insert the words \u201Cor to any incorporated or unincorporated foundation or trust that is associated with or supports the candidate\u201D in clause 5 before subclause (1), which relates to candidate donations. There\u2019s a similar provision in clause 1 after subclause (5) in relation to party donations. Does any member of this committee object to that idea? Can any member of this committee explain why we wouldn\u2019t want to do that? I\u2019m still listening. I haven\u2019t heard a single answer\u2014not one\u2014so I assume that silence is consent. I assume, therefore, that there\u2019ll be unanimous support for Dr Smith\u2019s amendment, and I look forward to the voting on it when that will happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EIf the Minister wasn\u2019t so arrogant\u2014and I\u2019m sorry to have to describe him in that way, but to have behaved in this way, as he has done now on four occasions in relation to electoral law, there\u2019s no other way of describing it. Arrogant, high-handed, taking this \u201CI know best\u201D mentality and firing abuse at the Opposition in his first reading speech last night, even though we were going to support the measure\u2014that seemed to me an extraordinary way of going about trying to retain our support. Why, when we had to listen to all that abuse, if he genuinely wants sound, constructive, effective, fit for purpose legislation, is he taking this high-handed approach when, as has been pointed out many times, we could have had a short select committee process but given people the time to comment, still have dealt with this matter very early in the new year if necessary, and have had everything in place well in time for the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022 data-id=\u0022747afd3f2f554d9e913c7824a29544a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022747afd3f2f554d9e913c7824a29544a6\u0022\u003EMATT KING (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014a short contribution on this bill. I asked myself, when it came through, why are they doing this? What is the purpose? I just can\u2019t understand why they\u2019ve pushed us into urgency. I had my M\u0101ori Affairs Committee cancelled because of this urgency. Two of the members are in this Chamber. We\u2019ve got a heavy workload and we are sitting here arguing about this bill under urgency, and it doesn\u2019t even solve the problem, if there is such a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re going to support the legislation. We\u2019re going to support it, but why can it not be done properly in a normal process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250edd60de19b45808412b6cfab155177\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Why are you so sensitive to it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201394963ca15420ababdbefc18605762\u0022\u003EMATT KING\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not sensitive to it\u2014we\u2019re not sensitive to it. We are not running a foundation where the donations are not disclosed. We are not worried one bit. That\u2019s why we are supporting it. But we\u2019d even support a shortened select committee process so that members of the public and experts would come in and we could make a decent law, so we can make a bill that actually is going to solve the problem. But no, this Government says no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re into protecting New Zealand democracy from overseas influence, but I don\u2019t actually see evidence to support that we have a problem. The bill does nothing even if there was. Now, if this Government was serious, they would ban all overseas donations or make it so that only eligible people that can vote can donate, or they would include the incorporated foundation amendment that the Hon Nick Smith had put in. This doesn\u2019t even cover the New Zealand First scandal, and that\u2019s the foundation scandal. That stinks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003ETo introduce legislation under urgency, it\u2019s not justified, so why are they doing it? So I take a step back and I think, OK, this Government are in full PR spin at the moment. They had a pretty terrible poll result, and the serious allegations surrounding the New Zealand First Foundation were in the media and it was getting some impact. Then they come out with this\u2014they rush this out. To me, this Government is in a massive, colossal diversion PR mode. If it wasn\u2019t so serious, it would be laughable, what they are doing. New Zealanders are watching them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227940e9f2-9cea-43d5-8f16-3b470e34f47f\u0022\u003ENow, the Hon Nick Smith made many valuable points which the Government cannot counter\u2014they cannot counter. I watched a bit of body language, and I see a lot of heads down, because this Government knows that what they\u2019re doing is wrong. They\u2019re seeking to find a solution to a problem that doesn\u2019t exist, but, if it did exist, I would suggest New Zealand First members should take a look in the mirror. New Zealanders know this Government are a lot of talk and they\u2019re not delivering, and this bill is a classic case of that. It\u2019s solving a problem. The first thing that the Hon Andrew Little said in his PR was that they were dealing with a problem, and that problem doesn\u2019t exist. They were banning overseas donations. Well, that law\u2019s already evident. All they\u2019re doing is dropping the level. Never has this Parliament seen a Government that has promised so much and delivered so little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00228afbd65d3bfa448a8a6f201d9a770f26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228afbd65d3bfa448a8a6f201d9a770f26\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I want to reinforce that in debating Part 1 of this bill, we are dealing with a bill that National members hadn\u2019t even seen 24 hours ago, and the extraordinary situation we have where Parliament is being asked to ram through over 17 detailed changes to electoral law without the experience, without the expertise, of either the Electoral Commission or officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to highlight particularly the seriousness of the issues that we are dealing with. Professor Andrew Geddis, who I think is widely respected across the Parliament as one of New Zealand\u2019s electoral law experts, said the conduct of the Government has been such that it is putting at risk New Zealand\u2019s ranking as one of the most transparent and least corrupt nations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c2b8e2f0eac4abb9644ab4e4226b952\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: This from The Hollow Men\u2014this from The Hollow Men.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d800d3b7334340ed9e09ae8486ad7e79\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s exactly\u2014Mr O\u2019Connor\u2014the words of what Andrew Geddis said in reference to the issues of the New Zealand First Foundation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the part that is unexplainable. We know from the figures in the regulatory impact statement that the level of foreign donations covered by this bill amount to $5,000 per year across all the political parties. We equally know that New Zealand First, that did not declare a single donation at the last election, received $500,000 in donations to a foundation that was kept secret, and it received 10 times more anonymous donations than any other party, at $340,000. So here\u2019s my question: if we\u2019re concerned about the integrity of our democracy, should we be more worried about the $840,000 anonymously going to New Zealand First, or should we be concerned about the $5,000 of average donations across the board to all political parties covered by this bill? Eight hundred and forty thousand or $5,000: which do you think has had the greater level of influence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s what New Zealanders know: the outcome of the 2017 election was determined by New Zealand First. New Zealand First was the only political party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd8208126fdf44879e1ee74d2fee58ad\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve heard this before\u2014repetition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3907e035dee44988e8999540c1ff110\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that did not declare a single donation. New Zealand First was the\u2014well, the Labour member is concerned that I\u2019m repeating it, because it\u2019s important, and I would challenge that Labour member to get to his feet and defend it. I\u2019ll tell you how important it is: it determined who was the Government of New Zealand. Do New Zealanders\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222289977e4fd245eaaa6d50a703c92c06\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re waiting for the Serious Fraud Office report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d77dea2c8d349bb95f67dc5023c9fb2\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: And I challenge Mr O\u2019Connor: does he believe New Zealanders have a right to know who the funders were that determined the outcome of election 2017? Absolute silence. I know what New Zealanders think. New Zealanders heard that they were going to be the most open, transparent Government ever, but on the crucial issue of who funded New Zealand First, who decided the outcome of election 2017, the Green Party and the Labour Party are apologists for the skulduggery that has gone on within New Zealand First, that is absent from this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIt is appalling that we are now almost an hour into the debate and not one Government member has been prepared to comment on this crucial part of this bill\u2014not one. Not one Labour member, on a bill that is being rushed through in 24 hours that the Opposition didn\u2019t even know was on the Government programme\u2014not a single Labour member has been prepared to take a call. I just ask them a very simple question: why would we not include in the definition of a political donation that which is made to a foundation or a trust associated with a political party? If we\u2019re really serious about transparency, about openness, and about integrity of our electoral system, why would we not address the issue that\u2019s been on the front page of the Dominion Post for four days out of the last two weeks? Why are we like ostriches, sticking our heads in the sand and saying, \u201CHear no evil, see no evil.\u201D, around the issue of foundations? Why are we taking an approach of seeing no evil and hearing no evil?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s not talk about New Zealand First and its foundation, but, by the way, we\u2019ve got this big problem because we have an average of 60 donations a year of an average value of $66 each from foreign sources over the last seven years. I\u2019ll say it again: this bill deals with the situation of an average of\u2014I\u2019ll give the exact number\u201469 donations per year, of an average of $66 each. This bill deals with those by putting a limit of $50 on them. Why would we deal with that and turn a blind eye to the issue of foundations and incorporated societies, deliberately designed\u2014as the papers have revealed\u2014to get around the declaration requirements of our electoral law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe next question I\u2019d love the Minister in the chair to answer is this: how are political parties to reasonably meet the enforcement requirements of what will become an illegal practice on 1 January 2020? That is, I looked on the web, and every one of the political parties in this Parliament has a website for donations. Everybody knows that the web is internationally accessible. If a person in Aussie or the UK or America jumps on the web on 1 January and says, \u201CHey, I happen to love this particular political party and I want to make a donation.\u201D, and they donate a hundred bucks, they are committing an illegal practice under this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo my view, and my question to the Minister, is: when we have the requirement in the bill that a party must engage in reasonable steps to prevent it, what is required on 1 January? For the bulk of donations these days, that are made over the net, what level of due diligence is required? If somebody sends a $100 donation in on the internet on 1 January to any one of the registered political parties in New Zealand, what practical requirement do they need to make? This is a serious issue; I don\u2019t want my political party being slurred with a view that it\u2019s involved in an illegal activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI\u2019d be particularly worried if I were the Greens. They\u2019ve had 20 times more foreign donations, according to the regulatory impact statement, than any other party, and so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd313052fc894035be3f1f97fac5da24\u0022\u003EMarama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not worried.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa717d8df3e142d3a58d7e3a5c509f9d\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m simply saying: what is the Minister and the Government\u2019s expectation of political parties? Isn\u2019t it interesting? I challenge the Green Party on their simple numbers. How is it possible that the Green Party has championed banning foreign donations for the last five years but has got 50 times more foreign donations, according to the regulatory impact statement, than any other party? This sounds like preaching one thing and doing exactly the opposite. Now, I\u2019m not arguing that the average donation was about 60 bucks a pop. I\u2019m not arguing that the Green Party\u2019s policy was necessarily affected by those donations. But what I do say to the Green Party is this: I\u2019m not worried about the person in the UK who provides a donation to the Green Party, or for that matter to the National Party, of 60 bucks. I\u2019ll tell you what I am worried about: I\u2019m worried about the party that determined the outcome of the last election receiving $500,000 in secret donations to a foundation. I\u2019m concerned that they received 10 times more anonymous donations than any other party\u2014a total of $340,000. My view is that $840,000 represents far more mischief than the 20-odd donations of about 60 bucks each on average that are covered by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why I say to members opposite: if you are serious about improving the integrity of our democracy, why would you not support my amendment to include foundations and incorporated societies associated with candidates or political parties, to make sure that we do actually have sunlight and disclosure in this area? The honest truth is this: it is only a matter of political convenience that Labour and the Greens are turning a blind eye to the scandal enveloping New Zealand First. They are only in the chair as Minister, only the Government, because of New Zealand First\u2019s illegal activity around election donations. They don\u2019t want to close that loophole. They want\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a53707eccc294bf9a7e12f61ea6bef62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a53707eccc294bf9a7e12f61ea6bef62\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E So a question for the Minister: if the Government parties are not concerned enough to put Dr Smith\u2019s tabled amendment into the legislation, bringing the scrutiny on foundations and other organisations that offer financial support to parties in New Zealand, does that mean that the Green Party, for example, may now set up their own foundation and receive donations of an anonymous type into that foundation\u2014as we know, they are able to call on this international network of people who are prepared to support their style of politics\u2014and have absolutely no scrutiny over that money whatsoever? Is that what this means?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIs it a fact, then, that the Government accepts the arrangement that New Zealand First has: that a donation into their foundation is not a donation to a political party and therefore does not have to be declared? Is it their position, also, that if a donation is made directly to the political party\u2014in the case of New Zealand First, $340,000, with the other $500,000 going into the foundation\u2014that also does not need to be declared? These might be matters for the Electoral Commission, but we\u2019re here altering the Electoral Act that that commission works on. So it seems to me that when we are right in the thick of the controversy over the missing $840,000 from New Zealand First, there is no mention of how that should be accounted for in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIn the National Party, we\u2019ve run a foundation for quite a few years. We make no secret of that, but every donation that\u2019s made to that foundation is declared, because it\u2019s absolutely clear that the donation is being made for political purposes. So if we are now going to have a situation where, if an overseas donor\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e53482a0b86a40c081ad8145317a4884\u0022\u003EClayton Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Show us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eb0786182bf426db5fd9e54c74fb149\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014makes an anonymous donation of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022851f55d0d18a4fbd95ddd31171122c93\u0022\u003EClayton Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Open up your books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267a78be2a8f14d7c8e435189ad17d390\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: There we go\u2014that\u2019s fantastic. The bagman from New Zealand First has just said, \u201CShow us the books.\u201D I\u2019ll tell you what, fella, go down to the Electoral Commission. Look at the return and you will be able to see the books. But, if we want to see New Zealand First\u2019s books, oh no, they\u2019re under Winston\u2019s mattress somewhere, tucked away where no one can see them\u2014a long list of foreign donors from all sorts of Eastern European countries and others, putting into the coffers of New Zealand First, and secretly made available to the party for all sorts of activity. Come on. The pot has got to stop calling the kettle black. That is unbelievable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s get back to the bill. Does this bill mean that anonymous donations in excess of $50 made on a website, perhaps to some kind of foundation that supports the Green Party, for example, or green politics, some kind of\u2014what are they called in the United States?\u2014political action group gets set up. They\u2019ve got no particular affiliation, but they might make donations for various political activities, and they would be prepared to declare themselves. No question about that\u2014that\u2019s no problem. But their stream of funding could remain anonymous. Their stream of funding could remain totally anonymous, because there would be no requirement in the New Zealand law for that political action group or political foundation or trust or whatever structure you might want to have to declare where their money came from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo it seems very, very odd that we\u2019re here looking at a problem that could be worth only about $5,000 on an annual basis\u2014anonymous donations to political parties\u2014but, in fact, we are ignoring the fact that there is a massive loophole here available and used so far by New Zealand First and available to others inappropriately to avoid scrutiny of where the money comes from. A simple question to the Minister is: why? Why is it not in there? What\u2019s the problem? Why is it so hard to insist that a political action group set up to receive funds for political purposes does not have to declare their anonymous donations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002229cb95f99ca441079e20f82b9618a9f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229cb95f99ca441079e20f82b9618a9f1\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In this contribution I want to ask a number of questions to the Minister, because I think what is really left very clear to anyone reading this bill is the huge gaps in terms of addressing the problem it says that it seeks to address. We\u2019ve had contributions earlier in these debates from the Green Party, in particular, who\u2019ve talked about the influence of big foreign money. We\u2019ve had others talking about the scourge of foreign donations. And yet, when you go and read the regulatory impact statement and you look at these issues as they\u2019ve played out in New Zealand over recent weeks, I am left with big questions about what this bill will actually achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo the first question I want to ask the Minister is why he is blaming National for what is not in the bill, because, certainly, the Minister has done a show of power in introducing this bill and passing it through as quickly as he possibly can. Certainly, it is clear that he could have the things in there that he wants to have there. In particular, I want to know why the Minister hasn\u2019t progressed the issues that are raised directly in this regulatory impact statement\u2014the risk that foreign states could circumvent any new rules that ban overseas donations by providing donations through a New Zealand citizen or resident or New Zealand - registered company?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI ask that question because it\u2019s very relevant given events of recent weeks. As Dr Nick Smith has said, in recent weeks we\u2019ve had the front page of New Zealand newspapers questioning the existence of the New Zealand First Foundation and those who donate to it. So my question to the Minister is simple: is there anything in this bill that we are discussing today that would prevent New Zealand First, say, getting a donation from a Russian actor into the New Zealand First Foundation and the New Zealand First Foundation later using that money to support their political campaigning? Is there anything in this bill to prevent that? Is there anything in this bill to prevent a Russian actor potentially contributing to a New Zealand - based company that then donates to the New Zealand Food Foundation? Are these loopholes that will still exist, and, if they do still exist, is the Minister confident that he is truly doing what is required to limit foreign influence on New Zealand\u2019s democratic process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThese are very important questions. Is it possible that the New Zealand First Foundation could continue to channel money, or could begin to channel money, from foreign actors? I\u2019d like to hear the Minister\u2019s view on that. In particular, I want to draw his attention to new section 207JA(1)(a) in the bill, which uses the phrase \u201Con behalf of\u201D, because I think it\u2019s very important that we consider what the burden of proof is that the Electoral Commission or others would have to reach in order to demonstrate that someone was providing a donation on behalf of a foreign actor. It\u2019s not clear in the bill what \u201Con behalf of\u201D means. This will, I am sure, be a question of legal relevance. Of course, there has been no select committee process. There has been no scrutiny of this phrasing and what it means and how it would be interpreted by legal experts, by academic experts, or by any of the hundreds of New Zealanders who might have something to say about it. So I\u2019d ask the Minister for his view of what \u201Con behalf of\u201D means and what that represents in terms of a threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe second question that I have is a very important one, which is why the Minister rejected the advice from his ministry set out in this regulatory impact statement that said that it was an operationally weaker approach to not align the anonymous donation limit with the foreign donation limit. Specifically, the regulatory impact statement says, \u201CIt is likely to be less effective in stopping foreign donors from supporting candidates and parties through anonymous donations\u201D. So my question for the Minister is does he have any concerns that there will be people who will continue to make donations to New Zealand who are, in fact, foreign actors, who will do so in an anonymous way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI would again point out that New Zealand First is well known for being the largest recipient of anonymous donations. So I would ask the Minister how will he satisfy himself\u2014how should we satisfy ourselves\u2014that those anonymous donations are not sourced from foreign actors? Can we really be sure that this bill is closing that gap? Why is it that he rejected the ministry advice on that point? Why did he reject the ministry\u2019s preference that that limit be lowered at the same time? Does he have any concerns about those anonymous donations being used?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe third question that I want to ask is this question about the boundaries between what is considered as a foreign donation to a party and what is considered as a foreign donation to another entity. Again, the bill sets out this particular issue that will be relevant in the 2020 election around groups that are campaigning on referenda. Of course, this is significant, because, as we know, referenda and the debates around them can impact on the way that an election is carried out and can impact on the way in which parties are perceived and votes are cast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAgain, the regulatory impact statement specifically points out that this bill doesn\u2019t restrict donations to organisations or groups that are campaigning for one side or another on a referendum campaign. I ask the Minister whether he is concerned that that leaves open the ability of foreign actors to unduly influence our democracy. And if he does have that concern, is this something that the Government thinks should be actually addressed prior to the 2020 election in which we\u2019re having at least two referendums? Is this a significant issue? Is it something that the Minister has considered and has addressed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve said earlier, we\u2019ve had people in this House talk about their deep concern about the influence of big foreign money. Well, surely, if that is a genuine concern, we would be concerned about the way in which that could influence the outcome of a referendum, or is there some reason that I\u2019m missing, that\u2019s not in the regulatory impact statement, that the Minister hasn\u2019t addressed, as to why the Minister is comfortable with that and why the Government is comfortable with that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EFinally, my final question is around why this bill is limited to general election parties and candidates, and why it doesn\u2019t extend to local body elections and candidates. It would seem to me that if, really, the intent of this bill is to ensure there isn\u2019t undue foreign influence on our democratic processes then, actually, local democratic processes are just as important. In fact, having consistency in the regimes seems simple and obvious and could be achieved with a very simple clause within this bill, and I\u2019d ask the Minister why that wasn\u2019t considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EOf course, I won\u2019t accept as an answer the Minister saying, \u201COh, well, there wasn\u2019t time to think about it and consult.\u201D Let\u2019s be honest, this bill hasn\u2019t been consulted on in any way. In fact, the regulatory impact statement is very clear that the party secretaries and the parties themselves\u2014those who will be charged with working out whether a donation is foreign sourced\u2014haven\u2019t been consulted at all. There\u2019s been no opportunity for parties to say, \u201CWell, here\u2019s what we think could be an issue. Here\u2019s where we think the burden of proof might need to lie. Here\u2019s the sort of evidentiary basis that you might need to consider.\u201D In fact, I would wager that political parties could have been quite helpful\u2014the party secretaries and others, and the lawyers involved in these issues\u2014in talking about how this would actually effect their operations. But they have not been consulted, so I don\u2019t accept the argument that \u201COh, well, we couldn\u2019t consult local government either.\u201D, because the same threshold should apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo I do want to know why local actors have been left out, because, when you read the regulatory impact statement, what comes through most clearly is the view that, actually, this bill will do very little to really address the genuine issues with foreign donations. What this bill does is\u2014\u201Csend a signal\u201D is the language used\u2014send a signal. I want to know from the Minister whether he is satisfied that sending a signal is sufficient, when we already have evidence in New Zealand on the front pages of our newspapers of a particular party taking extreme steps to avoid the disclosure of money that they are receiving, and New Zealanders are already unable to see who it is that is contributing to a political party because of the steps they have taken to work around things. So my question is: why does the Minister think that this sends a signal that will have any impact at all, given the number of holes in it, and given the number of questions his own officials have asked about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIs he not concerned that the lack of scrutiny, the lack of select committee process, could in themselves create more loopholes that further raise concerns from the New Zealand public? I would wager that we will see in the next year or two ongoing significant questions about the ways in which foreign actors are able to influence our political regime, and I would put to the Minister: does he share that concern; and, if not, why not? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00223be7c36bc7574d9eba9b4ca7d45a7803\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223be7c36bc7574d9eba9b4ca7d45a7803\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We\u2019ve had now a succession of members opposite who\u2019ve all raised the same question or questions, and so I think it\u2019s appropriate to provide the answer, and, hopefully, to provide the answer once to the questions asked multiple times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EJust taking the final point of the member who\u2019s just resumed her seat, Nicola Willis, which is: why confine it just to general elections? Can I just acknowledge, for those who might be watching Parliament for the first time, this stage of the debate on a piece of legislation is a very close and detailed examination of every clause in a particular bill, which is what we call something before it becomes a law. And, right now, we are talking about a law that seeks to ban foreign donations to political parties and political candidates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo the reason why this bill is confined to general elections is because in the circumstances that we have now, with evidence publicly given, particularly by our security and intelligence agencies, about the risks and the threats that we face like many other democracies of undue foreign interference and foreign influence, we have to take appropriate action. But because we\u2019re doing so under urgency, because we haven\u2019t had the benefit of the findings of the Justice Committee\u2019s inquiry into the 2017 general election, I have made the decision to confine it just to general elections, because next year is the year of a general election. We want to have the regime in place that affords protection to New Zealand voters and citizens to make sure that our democracy isn\u2019t unduly interfered with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOn the issue of gaps in the bill\u2014and I hear the points from the National Party and there is a bit of pot calling the kettle black, because if you have a look at the tabled amendment that is in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith, there is no reference, for example, to donations made to registered companies that might therefore be a vehicle through which overseas donations are routed. There is only one party in this Parliament that is currently the subject of a Serious Fraud Office investigation; it happens to be the National Party. There is only one party who in their returns in the 2017 general election showed an extraordinary number of donations to candidates from their head office, and that is the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo if the issue is about a law\u2014or actions and behaviours that on the face of it could defeat the intent of the legislation\u2014there is plenty we can look at. This bill deals with an issue that the Justice Committee is right across, which is the risk and threat of foreign interference and influence in our electoral system through donations. It bans them subject to a de minimis sort of threshold. But what it does, most importantly, and in answer to the questions about whether it will really stop, the sort of things that people are concerned about, particularly going through New Zealand - registered companies and using New Zealand persons as defined in the legislation as a funnel through which donations could be made, I refer members\u2014again as I did in my opening remarks\u2014to clause 8 of the bill and to clause 10 the bill. Clause 8 sets up the positive duty on party general secretaries\u2014and let\u2019s remember, party general secretaries are subject to a number of statutory duties right now\u2014to ascertain that the donation is not a foreign donation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAnd of course, the words\u2014and Chris Penk will enjoy this. There is, in subsection (1) of proposed section 207JA, set out in clause 8, the word \u201Ca\u201D before the word \u201Cdonation\u201D. And then, following that, in paragraph (a), the word \u201Cthe\u201D before \u201Cdonation\u201D tells you that it\u2019s not just donations that are suspected to be foreign; it is actually every donation that is covered. Every donation will achieve a level of scrutiny because that\u2019s the way you fulfil that duty. But then the belt and braces kicks in in clause 10 and new subsection (3) of section 207L, which is a defence to the charge, and it\u2019s very clear what that defence entails. If a party general secretary has not taken\u2014in a situation where there were reasonable grounds to suspect that a donation exceeding $50 came from or was made on behalf of an overseas person, then the defence will not be available and the offence will be complete.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the belts and braces approach and answers Nicola Willis\u2019 questions and answers Gerry Brownlee\u2019s questions and answers every question raised by members opposite. That is the belts and braces approach. That is the protection that New Zealanders will have against foreign donations interceding in our democracy and in our general election. The bill is deliberately kept very simple because of the circumstances that we\u2019re in and the subject matter that we\u2019re dealing with, and that is the reason why this House should get on and pass this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022638198de710042c28c874b9452301809\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022638198de710042c28c874b9452301809\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb1983e528a249c28c5586cf11376945\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb1983e528a249c28c5586cf11376945\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. A call just to highlight a couple of issues in relation to the tabled amendment in the name my colleague the Hon Dr Nick Smith and the value of it, which seems to have been missed by a couple of members opposite\u2014namely, one of the Green Party members last night, and also the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little. The wording is very deliberate\u2014to talk about a couple of entities that have the effect of being associated with or supporting the candidate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo the idea here, for the benefit of the Minister and anyone else listening, is that what we want is a regime that is functionally going to meet the aim of the bill, because if we\u2019ve got a bill that says that it\u2019s to protect democracy by restricting foreign donations, then it should be every entity that is capable, effectively, of being like the candidate or being like the party in the context of donations. So that\u2019s why Dr Smith, with wording that is, I think, very good\u2014I couldn\u2019t have drafted it better myself\u2014it\u2019s the same in each case. The intent there very much is to highlight that the intent of the law is what we should be concerned with as well as ensuring that, obviously, the letter of the law meets that aim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ll come back to the Minister\u2019s point around also, potentially, having companies included in that. I think it\u2019s a reasonable point that he raises and I do want to address that shortly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut the Green Party member last night talked about shell companies, and I\u2019d used that phrase in relation to a point that had been made by an outside commentator, a point that he might have been able to make had we had a select committee process of any kind. It\u2019s a point too that\u2019s been on my mind and in those of a few others who are genuinely concerned about\u2014worrying about\u2014undue foreign influence in our politics. The nature of a shell company is that it\u2019s a company that is set up with no other purpose than, essentially, for funnelling donations in this context, or it might have some other sort of pretty nominal purpose. And the point about the bill that is being put forward is really that, essentially, that\u2019s the loophole that remains. What we\u2019ve got to aim to get through is to close these loopholes, and that\u2019s what Dr Smith\u2019s amendment is intended to do. And so it is that I sort of feel like I shouldn\u2019t need to point this out to fellow members of the committee, but the whole point is to close these loopholes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2069a3ec3e3415eb4d4943f76d76052\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2069a3ec3e3415eb4d4943f76d76052\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I decided to make a speech here this morning because I\u2019ve sat in my office and other committee meetings, hearing these attacks on a party called New Zealand First from the biggest bunch of you-know-whats this Parliament has ever seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022184520b4298942a28470d3de80d4e9e2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221cadb271642429a9b06e73a3724d4af\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Answer the question, Mr Smith. I\u2019ll answer the question. That\u2019s a man who told Parliament that he\u2019d made a declaration to the parliamentary commissioner, excepting when I asked the parliamentary commissioner, she wrote to me and said he did not. So, in short, did he tell the truth to Parliament? No, he didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d362faf7eeb46e9a3bfdbc2d1311e55\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I really don\u2019t\u2014I think that is against Standing Orders\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232eb2193f4a5427c859433f02bc7f120\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: What is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c22250637ee47b390b7cf4cfae3fe89\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: To accuse a member of deliberately misleading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022880eaad3ca0a45f3870f7dbb7cb91049\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t say that, did I? That\u2019s your inference from my conclusion in my speech. I said, \u201Cexcept Margaret Bazley told me that he didn\u2019t.\u201D Now you infer from that he\u2019s a liar. Go right ahead, but I didn\u2019t say it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275841bcc998a4ac681b4a06b7567cbb3\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f73d015c154443181e19c181737c6ac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m sorry, but just a minute. I am dealing with my concern about the comment you made following that, which then accused Dr Smith of telling an untruth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe6448144808432090b922c20aedb931\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Read the Hansard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e729a839f05a4184a62512e7af35fa5f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I don\u2019t have to because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cb1f83ff39447d6a41840a04d569d9e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224886e3f49bf74ce78dc90297ba610c95\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I\u2019m the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbfc35ad8b8e42ce9d9ade734ef8b7fa\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got to provide evidence like everybody else. You\u2019re not a law unto yourself here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c7dd912bf784ee2ab219aa830c2e0ea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me. Excuse me. Actually, I am in the Chair and I\u2019m trying to deal with this. I would ask you to withdraw and apologise because you have made an unparliamentary accusation against a member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cdd7a893f5340a79b367498a7af6c41\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chairperson, I want to know what the accusation was that I\u2019m meant to be apologising for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224725f90470e240ba862e75a23637a547\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve explained that to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205164675877842f49421fea488e6f290\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014you haven\u2019t, madam. You\u2019ve made the claim, but you haven\u2019t provided the evidence, and you, in your position, are required to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9a899b5a85f4f4ea0441f79b9c4a8c1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: I am not. I am asking the member to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c897e09f7544c06b455d13fe9c2d4ad\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244014622cc0c443fa8e49fe8310bcc60\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dac5643df36443980e3077feab08a9e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Smith\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcccd5a0f1454761a1ded9e82260254e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. It might only be a few seconds\u2014about 40 seconds\u2014into the member\u2019s contribution to this debate, but this is a debate about this electoral bill, not about the past or any particular one member in this House. We\u2019ve been all called to speak to the debate, and we have, and the Minister of Justice has answered questions that have been raised legitimately as a consequence of that debate, and I think we should continue along those lines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b141702354e642508ffae55ef248c05e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238fa2c497e274ca2bc758ff0aa9c951b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258325e9aae884afea9a9c7d91300f2a0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I don\u2019t need anything. I\u2019m sure that the member is going to get to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba593d2ec258460fb88d3ad820e940ad\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. You have sat here for the last hour and heard accusation after accusation about the past, and now, all of a sudden, the defender of that behaviour gets up and says you can\u2019t mention the past. Surely, he is gainsaid by his own colleague\u2019s action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f35e59aef8c4142b368ff7abc006030\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that point of order. We are debating Part 1 of the bill in front of the House, and I\u2019m sure that the member is going to continue his speech and direct that towards the bill in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8b9e2c7fa2d48feb5a320893b23fc0a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. If that is the case, how do you describe what you\u2019ve allowed to go on here in the last hour of attacks against a political party, baseless as they are, and they will be proven to be so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b06def57a2a24961bc181bbc7293c64e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224803ccd9ceec44e6b39f74f7ceb4076a\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f00e0df1cfd424781b66edcd42be864\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I don\u2019t need any help\u2014thank you. Thank you. First of all, I have not been in the Chair for the past hour; I took the Chair at 10 o\u2019clock. I have listened very carefully to the debate in that time, and there have been questions asked of the Minister about parts of this bill before the House that might address concerns that have been in the media. Now, that is entirely appropriate. That is entirely in accord with Standing Orders because they are addressing parts of the bill. They\u2019re asking questions of the Minister about the parts of the bill. I\u2019m sure that the member is able to address those issues in relation to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8acce413ae345e4bbcf048f1a6f62cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Let me say that there was a speech last night made in this respect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228865d6cf6fd54395b08e931caf7d3093\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Are we continuing now with your speech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5c8cb4b7b75455aa1884c553f78c493\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course I am continuing. Did I say point of order before I rose to my feet that time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297b6489b71654ac28704e233405f6622\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: No. I just want to check that you have the right amount of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbff0f062cea4d7ba6c7bf85fdd62c95\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014well just follow the script, Madam Chairperson. Even you should be able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe reality of the matter is that there was a speech\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b245d6f9a36848d9b7baf5dda3cb9b69\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s riled up, isn\u2019t he? He doesn\u2019t like the truth. He\u2019s not liking the truth now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220890127900aa496687e9ce877b6b871a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014of course I don\u2019t like it. I don\u2019t like people with a capital \u201CH\u201D as their major feature of their character. The people who are screaming out over there evince that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ELast night, there was a speech made in this Parliament that should have made the headlines all around this country. It was about a political party\u2014and I want to know how this Part 1 is going to catch this sort of behaviour\u2014that went offshore and raised $150,000. Just one donation\u2014one donation\u2014$150,000. All the emails and all the texts and everything associated with that arrangement were offered to this Parliament, but not one of those people over there, acting as though they\u2019re as pure as the driven snow, asked for a shred of evidence. You know why? Because they\u2019re as guilty as sin, and they\u2019re not going to win getting away with the kind of behaviour they thought to get away with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EYou can look as cross-eyed as you like, Mr Penk, but you\u2019re not going to win here. The fact is he was the one that shouted out last night. He shouted to Jami-Lee Ross. He said, \u201CBut you did it.\u201D See? There he was, a colleague of the very guy that did it, and he\u2019s shouting out \u201CBut you did it.\u201D, as though, somehow, that sort of behaviour, or that sort of comment, exonerates their attempt to get around, in the most devious way, the law of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad550a931a2943d78bc38f7e663ca2c4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about your foundation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220816056f1dd047be8775a8f9e9be7e53\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very happy to tell us about the foundation, because it\u2019s based on the National Party\u2019s foundation. Isn\u2019t it amazing? It\u2019s based on the National Party\u2019s foundation. Oh no\u2014these people are so born to rule\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283129de2a0b84d40a15566dd0cf8a3e4\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c08b849eab8d4585bdcef63c25a979a8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: He did ask me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221af603517cc24490ad05db14d94a0660\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s true, and I apologise on behalf of members on this side. We won\u2019t ask that member any more questions. But we do need to come back to the bill. On the substantive stuff, I\u2019ve already said quite loudly several times in this House today that everything relating to the National Party Foundation is available for scrutiny as part of public record. It\u2019s not our foundation that\u2019s not available for public scrutiny. We now should come back to the bill, and perhaps the member the Deputy Prime Minister might like to explain why the Government doesn\u2019t want to have scrutiny on foundations. We welcome it; why doesn\u2019t he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad5dd1c1d23c45169bce53f2b59c6e57\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: If I can respond to that point of order. First of all, it wasn\u2019t a point of order; it was a debating point. Second of all, we are not going to continue along this line, because there were interjections asking questions and the member on his feet has every right to answer those interjections. So I\u2019ll now call the Rt Hon Winston Peters to continue with his speech, speaking to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dc59ab17b85465b863423cf6e2d9b81\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the bill in Part 1, the reality is that all these matters should be transparent within the law. Can I say, with respect to the last question from over the other side there, in respect of New Zealand First, this matter is being examined by the very authorities qualified to do so. But they don\u2019t include the biased media, and they don\u2019t include the biased, prejudiced, and deceitful members of the Opposition. Simply this: it won\u2019t stop there, of course, because I\u2019ve got senior National Party members contacting New Zealand First saying, \u201CWhy on earth did they start this attack, because it\u2019s going to rebound on us.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225249fe97eb144a5aa3d602f421709434\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Could we talk about the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ebc5a6c69b8463ba94ec78ef810be25\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, I want to know\u2014if we speak to Part 1\u2014how does the Minister feel about that? Is there going to be some sunlight\u2014is there going to be the disinfectant of truth\u2014shone on a certain political party that has had for years in excess of $100 million never disclosed ever. They have the gall and the audacity to rise in this Parliament and condemn by attempts by innuendo and slight a party that has behaved within the law and will be proven to be so. We are the ones who are volunteering to the Electoral Commission the information. We\u2019re not asked for it. No, no\u2014we\u2019re volunteering it. But here comes the rub: you\u2019re next, Mr Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00224a76a60bddbe4c6981eead4ac20560d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a76a60bddbe4c6981eead4ac20560d7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I seek leave of the House to table the letter from the former president of New Zealand First and treasurer seeking to be heard at the Justice Committee inquiry because of inappropriate financial dealings within New Zealand First. The letter is to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa2f376f19344285b8ee5fe8c8701a82\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: This is rubbish. Sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a926009b491e45daa1683fa83066115d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257bf39e9a3e745f88ecbed64f72606f9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s just rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af192c7ba4564bd5a25ad3e4e79faf33\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me. It\u2019s a legitimate seeking leave. Is that letter available on the website, or is that part of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022300413ee056d4417b28f95078db87a83\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a letter that\u2019s been sent and circulated to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ae154d65df246ccb96cbe856c34ba7d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: So it\u2019s still within the\u2014it hasn\u2019t been released. It\u2019s not a public letter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aea284c02ee542e1b38b9c62ff3c3aec\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It hasn\u2019t, but, as I\u2019ve been advised by the clerks, where a member of the public writes a submission or letter to a select committee, they may choose to make that document public. They have indicated they\u2019re quite happy for it to be public, and that\u2019s why I seek the leave of the committee of the whole House, in the interest of transparency and openness, to table the letter from the former\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022361ccce5bf5c44baa295915da0ddea06\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: So they have indicated they are happy for that letter to be made public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e3f2c4d41db40d09afd8351f59130ae\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d658f54f79c84afb8d8d7a756f9a189f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d658f54f79c84afb8d8d7a756f9a189f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: In that case, I\u2019ll put the leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e8fed6f4a3948bf85aac5ceb21d94e7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282bdc46138b44ed297875f85bb730d4a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014it\u2019s not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022434cf02b30fe4be5adcf5c6f384e6209\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It is a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da006382ef8b4d02a6cd62788177f775\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: It isn\u2019t. I beg your pardon. He has sought leave. There is no debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb3a761e790f4fb4be8e67344abb499e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: The matter\u2019s subject to committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c390f5011d6a45feb7722c0aa68ee7cc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: The House\u2014we\u2019ve already had this. I am going to put the leave. Is there any objection to that letter being tabled? There is. There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00224a37018d48a04f3bbd71bc9b1a13e518\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a37018d48a04f3bbd71bc9b1a13e518\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that was a particularly typical obfuscatory, arrogant, bombastic contribution from the leader of New Zealand First, who spent the best part of five minutes saying absolutely nothing. Nobody listening to this debate will have any more idea where they stand on any of the important issues than they did before he started.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI want to distil it down to one very simple question, which he failed to answer in amongst all the bombast and all the abuse that he fired over this side of the House, and that is: will New Zealand First vote for the Hon Dr Nick Smith\u2019s tabled amendment? Will New Zealand First vote for the Hon Dr Nick Smith\u2019s amendment, which will clear all the concerns that he\u2019s speaking about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8cee70010f244c196509282f3b1052c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: We don\u2019t vote for hypocrisy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287336b3100b84d9badece0d54dff1461\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CWe don\u2019t vote for hypocrisy.\u201D Oh my goodness. Doesn\u2019t that just explain the utter hypocrisy we\u2019ve just listened to for five minutes? I hope that the world is watching, because, apparently, the Russians hang on every word. So let\u2019s hope that they all are. Utter hypocrisy\u2014utterly disingenuous. All he needs to do is support Dr Nick Smith\u2019s amendment, and we will have the disinfectant of sunlight that he apparently is calling for. But, oh no\u2014we won\u2019t get it; not from him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ENow, there is another question\u2014there is another question. In his point of order, Dr Nick Smith has just sought leave to table a document. Unfortunately, leave was denied. Who by? The leader of New Zealand First, of course. He claimed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f53e66300d9a47ee9a7f43ea7d81d461\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273666f34fec248f09385164765ab7304\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh my goodness. Here we go again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f3d4c839b344437a789609314aaa23a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Which part of Part 1 of this bill is that member remotely referring to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e03372f0ab4746339a286697a455470e\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f63724055514c2fb4012a84fe1cab26\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t need that, actually. I did listen, and the member was asking for support for an amendment that is actually on the Table. So that was in order. He\u2019s moving off that now, but that was in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d09cd10052f46eab84358069fcb4222\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, and, of course, I was responding to an interjection, and you have ruled previously in this debate that it\u2019s perfectly legitimate to respond to an interjection. I want to make the point that we have tried to seek leave to have a letter tabled, and the member who took the call called out \u201Crubbish\u201D; twice, he called out \u201Crubbish\u201D. So what I want to ask him now is, is he denying that that letter exists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218a291f9d6ab41fa95cfc1d05d4c6e2a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd2cf49f2e66454f86582a1ee0d3b11a\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it\u2019s rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6f3b4a6e8584074ab081e5f268aeba1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, hang on, hang on, hang on. First of all, I have supported the member with his first question relating to the amendment. But, now, his speaking time is not questioning members sitting opposite. I would now like him to come to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203c61bd4b9d64191881b694e70301e23\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014even though I was responding to his interjection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022312db2a3af894803a10dd6336b04e908\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but that doesn\u2019t mean the rest of your speech carries on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a21a4e78069479ea0cdf065378b7e0e\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: OK, well, given the fact that he told us absolutely nothing that added anything constructive to this debate, we\u2019ll move back to those who\u2019ve made more useful contributions. I do want to thank the Minister of Justice, who has returned to the chair, for standing up to answer questions, because we had had utter silence for more than an hour from the other sides of the House. And we were beginning to think, well, here we were again under urgency, no select committee process, and all the Government was wanting to do was shut it down. We\u2019ve already had a closure motion from Mr McAnulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EBut I have to say to the Minister of Justice, he only answered one question, and even that he did inadequately because he told us that intelligence agencies have advised him and the House that there\u2019s a need to take action but that he has decided\u2014the Minister of Justice has decided\u2014that without a select committee process, this measure should be confined solely to general elections. Our question, of course, was: why not include local body elections? And \u201CI have decided\u201D, says Mr Little, \u201Cthat without a select committee process, we should confine it to general elections only, rather than including local body elections.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWell, that exactly explains why he should have followed longstanding constitutional convention and due process and put this matter out for full consultation; not the opposite\u2014of him saying, yet again, \u201CI know best.\u201D Well, he wasn\u2019t in the chair earlier when I asked him how he responded to Mr Garner\u2019s comments on The AM Show this morning, but Mr Garner was asking why we\u2019re pushing this measure through under urgency. He said there was no obvious answer and he smelt a rat. Clearly, the rat is sitting over on that side of the Chamber at the moment, because, in particular, what Mr Garner was talking about was the New Zealand First Foundation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff70b51877c849fc9b11f43ffe9703eb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I won\u2019t have a dysfunctional geriatric call me a rat, and I\u2019m asking him to apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271dfbc8a14114ded8d686944d5677edc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think now it\u2019s one all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d6cc4e46f904022afa0dc4f21167b94\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no. He can\u2019t get away with that. Why didn\u2019t you stop him\u2014if you\u2019re doing your job properly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb6b805e5a514692be0043ba5f583d4e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, now the member is getting a bit close to the bone. There was an aspersion cast, and probably unparliamentary, but, unfortunately for the member, he just responded. So it\u2019s one all, so let\u2019s keep going. We\u2019ve got 34 seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022597473c7243c4c97978a8d397cfc11ed\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I noticed that the clock has been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df33997ab360450986e23a614573c51d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, it hasn\u2019t stopped. Keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db80d88d23b74d34be681189d019aa0a\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: The clock didn\u2019t stop for the whole time, so I think that I\u2019ve lost\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220015a067cb604a9ea63d53418b2ce3be\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddbc91ed0e5a4bd8af6f754b0bba7753\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m asking the Minister of Justice how he responds to Mr Garner, because we and the members of the public want to know\u2014in particular, relating to this murky New Zealand First Foundation that\u2019s become more murky, not less, as a result of the last contribution, which no members of their caucus have yet been willing to defend or explain. They\u2019ve simply tried to deflect attention from it. I want to know from the Minister what conversations he\u2019s had\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb415c960aca496691d30065b6a476bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb415c960aca496691d30065b6a476bd\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002263a6dfe5cea040169440f41746706484\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263a6dfe5cea040169440f41746706484\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E In his most recent contribution, the Minister said that he was answering all the questions that were asked of us as we were talking about the movement of money that might be considered an anonymous donation. And, then, the Minister pointed to the various duties that will fall upon the general secretaries or appropriate persons, authorised persons, inside political parties to ascertain where that donation came from. So the question I\u2019ve got is: if the donation came from a trust or from a foundation or from a political action group or any other third-party group set up to support a particular type of politics, and that particular entity only\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ed81231b57142ce8e20b03cda671017\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: You wouldn\u2019t know the law at all, would you? You\u2019re worse than that woodwork teacher.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200ffe68349664fd6a0c1488535ba520d\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Winston hates the workers; it\u2019s unbelievable, actually. Can we go into that? I\u2019m responding to an interjection now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220be7d3ee4c024af59f721ac0171a5d1d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, can we stop the time. Now, you\u2019re a senior member of this House, sir, and you know that to sit there and throw abuse across the Chamber\u2014personal abuse\u2014is not within the Standing Orders, and I\u2019d ask you to stop because all it does is lead to disorder. [Interruption] I\u2019m on my feet, and I\u2019m asking the member to please not throw personal insults across the Chamber that will only lead to more disorder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f6caea7e06642edbe5f37376595a7e1\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Just to recap: if an external group, separate from a political party, decides to make a donation to that political party, and the general secretary or the authorised person responsible in the party asks the question, \u201CWhere did the donation come from?\u201D, well, is there a problem, if, in fact all that foundation is doing is distributing interest earnt on donations that are made to it. If it is, in fact, the capital fund, as our foundation is, and that donation is made, is there a requirement to go further than knowing that it was interest earnt on anonymous donations or donations to that political group, that funding group. Because there\u2019d be no need for that group under this law to declare those donations. No need whatsoever. They don\u2019t need to. But, in the case of the National Party, they do. We have no problem whatsoever. That\u2019s all right, Mr Peters. We\u2019re not the people that are running around at the moment trying to pretend that $840,000 worth of anonymous donations apparently came from the voting base of New Zealand First in small donations. If it was $50, it\u2019d mean 17,000 people had to donate to New Zealand First. That\u2019s more than half the people who voted for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208a50abc40fc4efaafa1fc4e7e03e06f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. He has clearly got in to an area that\u2019s not remotely connected with this bill, and you sit there and allow him to get away with it. Well, we are not going to sit here while he abridges the Standing Orders because he doesn\u2019t have the intellectual capacity to understand what his parameters are. We are going to stop him. But what he\u2019s actually doing is digging a hole and telling you all about the National Party and the way they operate. And I want to thank him very much for that context, but it\u2019s outside the Standing Orders in terms of the subject of this debate: Part 1 of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022104d206852fe4e8786706815469983e7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member had been paying attention to me, I was signalling to the member that he had to come back to the bill. Up until his last sentence, he was actually asking the Minister a question that was relevant to the bill. But he did vary off that, and I was signalling to him, quite clearly, to come back to the bill. So I am capable of doing this job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022245572dd363a4556a89f5b16a79f782a\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: In my own defence, I was simply responding to a\u2014what\u2019s it called?\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229019d037d70e4e75b09f1ecc15dc5ed0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Interjection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253115f0183ee4d6583f0eb6f7647667c\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014interjection from the other side of the Chamber. I was trying to find a more fluid word. The question still remains for the Minister to perhaps tell us if this amendment from Dr Smith is not to be supported, then what is there to stop a third-party political action group of some kind\u2014trust, foundation, whatever you want to call it\u2014receiving anonymous donations, putting them into a capital fund, and then making donations in their own name on the interest earned on those funds to any political party. And if the obligation on the general secretary or authorised person in each case simply says\u2014sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Can we stop the clock? I called the point of order a good five seconds ago\u2014six seconds, actually. Why are we unable to respond to the interjections coming from the Deputy Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d18e655d47a4ac3a9d86bc6fc3f2495\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: You haven\u2019t been stopped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c035363ca17e44608cf5f3c3f1715ad0\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s also talking to the gallery, which I think you might have noticed. Oh, I\u2019m not worried now. OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262c6aee11661484bb0d8e03415e256b8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e18723dc0a84f4da5f5b79fc5f77f10\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211a27e0fa9c64b95bbd268882c21ddf3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: You are able to respond, but it\u2019s brief. As I said before, of course you can respond, but you keep it brief. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022effc44afd39b4dec919efd2622888223\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, perhaps I\u2019ll take another call, and you\u2019ll be generous enough to let me have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bb13906310b402ab49f94463b5c91d0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you haven\u2019t finished this one yet. Are we going?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022131037e58d4c4343857cb7b158428af4\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Can we go back five seconds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8d8c546bb0a4783b18438b269bfe4ee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! No, keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213925472b8654a4c8de4aaa6a60906e1\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Then the question simply is: what would that situation be? Would it mean that the general secretary\u2019s obligations are discharged simply by being told it is from the earnings on a capital sum from this particular organisation? Where in the bill does it say that it should be greater scrutiny than that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb49857b3ca24b2e9d8959d01f6e4c47\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcc06d309c644b0290f0482d19373730\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Smith, you\u2019ve had four speeches already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022988500c6cf994634a9f774872cfbc58b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022988500c6cf994634a9f774872cfbc58b\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250ebbc829ba5413fb57d85617eb725fa\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s already put it\u2014he can\u2019t put it twice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022006b655de4884aaf946d4b8e00684cb3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221251c1899a9c47c7be04382b4bd7587c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000261\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to clause 5 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000262\u0022\u003Ebefore subclause (1), insert:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000263\u0022\u003E(1AAA)\tIn section 207(2), definition of candidate donation, replace \u201Cor to any person on the candidate\u2019s behalf,\u201D with \u201Cto any person on the candidate\u2019s behalf, or to any incorporated or unincorporated foundation or trust that is associated with or supports the candidate,\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000264\u0022\u003Eafter subclause (5), insert:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000265\u0022\u003E(5A)\tIn section 207(2), definition of party donation, replace \u201Cor to any person or body of persons on behalf of the party who are involved in the administration of the affairs of the party,\u201D with \u201Cto any person or body of persons on behalf of the party who are involved in the administration of the affairs of the party, or to any incorporated or unincorporated foundation or trust that is associated with or supports the party,\u201D. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002237459480da8b4f6dbbf79b08cc69f30f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000266\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002288e7e0c37560465293c8722a35d55026\u0022\u003EPart 2  Other amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00226fd6cc73ebe943bebdbf27d3bd14da54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fd6cc73ebe943bebdbf27d3bd14da54\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This part of the bill deals with some associated but very important issues, ensuring the integrity of elections through controlling other forms of foreign influence. So the first of those defines the party secretary by functions that the person performs and says that the person designated as party secretary must live in New Zealand. The other major change, or minor change with significant impact, is that in relation to advertising, and it, effectively, says that advertising online or on social media must carry the same promoter statement or attribution that advertising in any other medium, particularly print and television and radio, also carries. That way, we know who is paying for advertising; we know who is trying to influence the electorate. These matters tidy away something that I think, given the presence of advertising on social media, might have been done some years ago, but it makes sense to do it now to address that issue that New Zealand, through this Parliament and its Justice Committee, and through reportage on the evidence gone to that committee, knows is a real risk for New Zealand. So on that basis, this simply tidies that away and closes the circle on foreign interference and foreign influence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea7302c6a7d743948d96e43e49f30f49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea7302c6a7d743948d96e43e49f30f49\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E It is just extraordinary that this very minor provision that requires a party secretary to be residing in New Zealand\u2014that\u2019s the only change in clause 16\u2014is being rammed through Parliament under urgency. Now, there isn\u2019t any record of any of our registered political parties ever having anybody live overseas, so the idea that we\u2019ve got to ram through Parliament a bill which we only saw less than 24 hours ago because there\u2019s this great concern about foreigners becoming secretaries of political parties is a pretty extraordinary measure. It is quite silly that Parliament is being asked to rush through such a minor, small change that poses such little risk, albeit a measure that the select committee, in hearing submissions, was very open and supportive of\u2014making that very minor change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI do draw attention to the committee the contribution from the New Zealand First Minister Tracey Martin, who made the point that party secretaries are volunteers and they need to be respected\u2014those that volunteer in political parties\u2014and we on this side of the committee agree with that. What I find extraordinary is that while we want to respect the role of party secretaries, we have the New Zealand First leader\u2019s lawyer, Mr Brian Henry, threatening to sue the party secretary and office holders of New Zealand First. Is the reason that the Government wants to make sure they are in New Zealand so that New Zealand First is able to silence and penalise those office holders that are blowing the whistle on the financial mispractice that has been going on within New Zealand First? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIt was interesting that in the former debate, the Government, the Deputy Prime Minister, objected to the tabling of a letter from office holders of the New Zealand First Party who want to appear before the select committee\u2014in a protected environment, where they enjoy parliamentary privilege\u2014because they are so fearful of the legal action that has been threatened by Mr Peters and by Mr Brian Henry for them disclosing the moral issues that have gone on within New Zealand First. I would ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, whether the motivation for the change in clause 16 being done in a rush is because New Zealand First wants to be able to ensure it can sue and take legal action against those former New Zealand First office holders, the president and the treasurer, who have recently resigned because of financial mismanagement within that party. [Interruption] I\u2019m sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236dca710c64f4eb08ffe695d4a30beee\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: I said get your facts straight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220465641b11d843b288f75d9add11fe77\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the president of the New Zealand First Party has resigned. You had to elect a new one at the election. He resigned because he says there were moral issues over the finances of New Zealand First. He said he could not explain the secret $500,000 of donations that went to the foundation. He has said on the public record that he was unaware of the $340,000 of anonymous donations to New Zealand First at the last election\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b99b96ce70074429984a4091ecb0494f\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: When did he say that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240110814d1704296b322b3e1f8fcb849\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u201410 times than any other\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236c8c596-d890-4cca-9767-1eeb5c9ce710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208050f8a1fbc44ed8db1d60265ce51da\u0022\u003EDarroch Ball\u003C/span\u003E: When did he say that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224feaaf15fa824b5983e7d7b0bf85d12a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: And he has also said, in response to the interjections from the New Zealand First member, that he resigned because he could not, for moral reasons, sign off on the financial accounts of New Zealand First. I draw to that member\u2019s attention that the New Zealand First Party was the only party not to declare any donations at the 2017 election\u2014extraordinary for a party that played the pivotal role in determining the outcome of that election. I\u2019d invite the member who\u2019s interjecting to get to his feet. I know the country would love to know whether he disagrees with the former party president. I know the country would love to know whether\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e68447d4cc6543b0869ac0d61a3945e6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to know how that relates to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204b00ac0b5c048ceb4f223c8140ae901\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this clause here is all about the party secretary, and about party office holders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b6ac6e3de814ed784b48c4a43c8bd02\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. I understand that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2fbdbf5beee4a66916d2eb89384692b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: And it is about changing them and saying they must live in New Zealand. My concern: I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister as to whether the reason for requiring them to live in New Zealand is so that Brian Henry and Winston Peters can carry out their threat of suing those office holders, whereas if they lived outside the new jurisdiction\u2014and I\u2019d love to know from the Minister why on earth it\u2019s necessary to rush under urgency, in 24 hours, in what has been described as terrible lawmaking, a provision around that provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second provision in Part 2 of this bill deals with the issues of electoral advertisements and modern media, and it\u2019s quite a sensible provision. What it is saying is that the rules that apply to a newspaper or a television or a newspaper advertisement should equally apply to social media. It is quite appropriate that we update our electoral law to bring it into the social media and internet environment of advertising. But the problem I have with it is this: why is it necessary to ram this through in just 24 hours? What opportunity has there been for people to submit on that? My bigger concern is that there are many other provisions within the Electoral Act that are not up to date with the internet age, with the age of social media; why are we solely picking out this particular provision and rushing it through under urgency? Why do we not, in fact, ensure that we make all of the changes that are necessary to our Electoral Act to take into account the internet and social media advertising provisions? I\u2019d love the Minister to respond to those two points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcadcdff4f1743dd9441ad11a039e51b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcadcdff4f1743dd9441ad11a039e51b\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Turning to Part 2 and looking a bit more deeply at the meaning of \u201Cparty secretary\u201D under clause 16, and again it is changing the Electoral Act itself. It seems to me that a few questions would be helpfully answered by the Minister of Justice, answers which we might well have gained or be expected to gain during a select committee process. So if any of them sort of seem a little bit mundane, or perhaps in the nature of items that I could be expected to have known, or be able to cross-reference, or to ask our excellent officials in this space then I simply, respectfully, refer you to the fact that we\u2019ve had a process whereby there\u2019s been so little opportunity for that kind of scrutiny of the bill until this point, such that it\u2019s now still, even at this relatively late stage, the committee of the whole House stage, less than 24 hours since some of us learnt even of the existence of the bill, let alone have a chance to read and understand it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo looking at the definition of \u201Cparty secretary\u201D or \u201Csecretary\u201D, or the meaning of it, in new section 3EA\u2014echo, alpha\u2014we\u2019re talking about a person who, in relation to a party, is responsible for the administration and correspondence of the party. My question to the Minister is what does that mean in the context of a party, which, inevitably I\u2019d say in any reasonably sized party or any unreasonably sized party either, for that matter, might well have more than one person who\u2019s responsible for administration and correspondence. I do acknowledge that there are provisions there that are pointed to in terms of the designation of that. I\u2019m not fully aware of all those meanings. I must admit I haven\u2019t had a chance within the limited time available to look through those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m really seeking from the Minister is an assurance that the meaning of the \u201Cparty secretary\u201D is such that we could have a situation where if more than one person was carrying out that function of administration and correspondence that they would be caught by the terms of the Act, because I suspect that\u2019s the intention. I suspect that the function of the Act is intended to, in this case, point to the need for him or her to be living in New Zealand. But with the phrasing of this particular bill very much in the singular, it\u2019s not clear to me that it would be possible that you\u2019d have co - party secretaries, perhaps, in the same way that the Green Party has co-leaders. So that\u2019s a possibility that I\u2019d be grateful if the Minister would be able to clear up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe second is really the substance of the amendment regarding the party secretary, which is a new requirement that they must live in New Zealand. That raises a number of interesting questions as well: for example, is it possible to have a non - New Zealand citizen who is performing this function but living in New Zealand at the time? The converse of that, so to speak, would be a New Zealand citizen who was living overseas at the time but not able to fulfil the role of a party secretary. That seems a bit anomalous with the way that we\u2019ve got the overseas aspect of an overseas person elsewhere in the same bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThere we\u2019re talking about it being OK to be a New Zealander, or technically a non - overseas person, either because you\u2019re, essentially, legitimately part of New Zealand\u2019s democratic purposes, albeit that you\u2019re living overseas at the time, or you can be someone who might generally be regarded as foreign, in sort of a pretty loose sense of that word, but based in New Zealand. So I don\u2019t know why a different approach has been taken in relation to a party secretary in terms of where they are physically living at the time. Then the obvious question becomes, as well: well, what does it mean to live in New Zealand? Do they have had to live for a minimum sort of qualifying period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EPerhaps we could borrow the language from other statutes on the book, to be ordinarily resident\u2014for example, a certain number of days per year; those kinds of mechanisms. They exist elsewhere in the law. It would not be hard to fit them in there. And again, I\u2019d be happy to work with the Minister and anyone else on the other side of the Chamber who\u2019d be prepared to add a bit of clarity in the law which does not currently exist, and for reasons that, as discussed in terms of process, we haven\u2019t had the chance to sort of patch up or tidy up until this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMoving to clause 17 now, again within Part 2, really this is an interesting one about electoral advertisements. What we\u2019re talking about is a person who\u2019s not able to publish various kinds of advertisements without specifying their name and so on. That\u2019s fine as far as it goes. But I\u2019m wondering about the phrase \u201Cpermit to be published\u201D, in particular, whether this is going to capture the social media companies themselves. So it\u2019s not just a candidate for an election, for example, it might be myself duly re-elected as the National Party candidate for Helensville, and if I can continue with that train of thought. [Bell rung] As well as continue as the National Party candidate for Helensville then I\u2019d simply point out that we\u2019ve got an interesting little point raised by the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWe were talking about a person who can\u2019t, essentially, publish something without demonstrating their true name or their address. But you could argue very readily, and I think quite reasonably, that a platform like Facebook or Instagram or Twitter or any of those other social media entities or perhaps some other online portal actually, arguably, is permitting to be published such an advertisement. So my question to the Minister, and no doubt his excellent officials who are standing by for such questions, I expect, is whether such social media companies and other publishers, if we regard them as publishers and not merely platforms, will be caught by that definition and whether or not the Minister intends that to be so; then the technical advice about whether that is, in fact, something that the law is able to achieve mechanically by those words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe remainder of that clause is around the requirements for the person who is doing the publishing. So we need to know their true name; that\u2019s a reasonably intriguing phrase. I don\u2019t know what the true name of a person might be as distinct from an untrue name or a false name. I wonder if that means a person who has changed their name, perhaps, legally\u2014it might be by deed poll\u2014or is generally known by another name for whatever reason. Whatever change in their lifestyle or other circumstances might dictate that they might want to go under a different name\u2014perfectly legitimate reasons that a person might do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I wonder if that\u2019s what the Minister is intending by having the true name of the person as the test for what they\u2019ve got to publish in terms of identifying themselves, because I\u2019m not sure that that\u2019s the best expression of that, just to sort of suggest that someone could have a true name or an untrue name or a false name. So perhaps a legal name or a name by which they can be readily identified or associated, which would surely be sort of the purpose behind the legislation, given that what we\u2019re looking at, I suspect, is ensuring that people who are publishing ads in the online space as well as in more general kinds of ways, can be captured by the intent of the legislation, which has a certain amount of transparency about who exactly is putting up what on Facebook or online and the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThen the final point in relation to that, and again I sort of make it as a point but intend it as a question, is around the person\u2019s place of residence or business, so the address for that has to be published. I wonder if the Minister would contemplate having a test equivalent to those for authorisation statements where it\u2019s something along the lines\u2014and forgive me if I don\u2019t get the wording exactly correct\u2014that it\u2019s an address at which the person might reasonably be expected to be found. I\u2019m sort of looking over in the direction of the officials as well as the Minister as I say that. I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s something they contemplated. It might be that there\u2019s very good reasons that they haven\u2019t gone with that, and it would be good to know those reasons if so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThese are the kinds of questions. Of course I don\u2019t wish to labour the point too much but with a new person in the chair I\u2019d probably get away with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea8d6006eec54ecb97ac0f2f8656597e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Nope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229761ccf181b41b68b99b7dba1839823\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: No? She\u2019s shaking her head. She\u2019s been watching, unfortunately. Well, there go my next two contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut in any case, the point really was, and it is actually a serious one, that they\u2019re asking these questions now because it\u2019s the committee of the whole House stage and this is the appropriate time or one of the appropriate times, normally, for being able to sort of interrogate this level of detail, interrogate even the Minister, if we can sort of put it like that, and understand that. Normally, the other opportunity to do that would be in the select committee process. We could sort of embarrass ourselves with our lack of knowledge and perhaps silly questions, although, you know, famously there\u2019s no such thing as a silly question, but for anyone who\u2019s attended the Justice Committee there is such a thing as a silly question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAnd so it is that I\u2019d love the Minister to respond with answers to those two key points. One is about the party secretary, which I suppose, in turn, has two parts: who\u2019s responsible for the administration of correspondence, could that be more than one person in relation to a particular party; and, second, what does it mean that they must live in New Zealand. Then the other point, really the key one in relation to the electoral advertisements, was whether the likes of Facebook, but again other entities too that publish or allow themselves to publish, \u201Ccause or permit to be published\u201D even in the wording of the law, are they captured by that intention to, essentially, create an offence whereby someone can\u2019t do that without publishing name and address details.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00222739ab610fba43f4985536f4d98719ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222739ab610fba43f4985536f4d98719ad\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the members who have spoken so far on this part of the bill. I will seek to attempt to answer their questions. I\u2019ll start with the contribution by the Hon Dr Nick Smith, whose central question was: why haven\u2019t other changes been made? And, look, I could say, \u201CWell, that\u2019s a bit rich, because in nine years nothing changed.\u201D, but the reason is because this is a bill that seeks to deal with the obvious and now increasingly\u2014the increasing clear risk of foreign interference and undue foreign influence in our political system. So I\u2019m pleased to hear that that member supports the extension of the requirement to put promoter statements on all forms of advertising, including those on social media and online advertising, but this has not been a time for a thoroughgoing, comprehensive review of the Electoral Act. That does need to happen, and I\u2019m confident that that will happen, but that is not the objective of this piece of legislation. It is very discrete, it is very confined, and that\u2019s why it is the way that it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ETo Chris Penk\u2019s usual, always very interesting contributions\u2014I disagree with him that there is any such thing as a dumb question; there are no dumb questions. He knows that, and his contributions keep Ministers in the chair on their toes, which is the role of the committee of the whole House stage, mostly. So to deal with the definition of \u201Cparty secretary\u201D\u2014really, I understand the question to be: is the role divisible? If you have a look at the drafting of that clause 16, which refers to other parts of the Electoral Act which make references to the party secretary, those provisions referred to in that clause 16 and the new section 3EA\u2014so the current sections 63(2)(c)(iii) or 63(2)(c)(iv)\u2014that refers to the person named on the application to register the party; that is the party secretary. In section 67(3)(c), it is the person notified to the Electoral Commission as appointed to the position of secretary. Then in section 67AA(2), that provides that if there is a vacancy in the position of party secretary another person must be appointed. So the scheme of the Act already says there must be this person designated as party secretary. It is that person\u2014and all that that provision adds is that the person must live in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhich brings us, neatly, to the next question that the member posed, which was: what does live in New Zealand mean? Well, there is not a residential requirement, nor even a citizenship requirement. It simply means that the person must be in New Zealand and living\u2014to live in New Zealand, clearly, there has to be some sort of authority to do so. I\u2019m attempting to say the person has to be in New Zealand and not dead. I mean, that would be an accurate interpretation and definition of it, and that would be a useful start, but, actually, I think it is very clear the person must be located in New Zealand, discharging the responsibilities of this person designated, for statutory purposes, as the party secretary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe next question that that member asked was in relation to clause 17 and \u201Cpermit to be published\u201D. I simply say to the member: that is just the language already used in the Electoral Act and we\u2019re not seeking, because of the circumstances in which this legislation is in the House, to make any other changes or craft up any other kind of drafting that will have an impact on the rest of the Electoral Act. We are drafting this bill in a way that is consistent with the rest of the Act, and that explains that one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EPenultimately, the member asked about the true name. Now, that is simply, you know, ensuring that aliases are not used. You could not use \u201CDaddy Thicc Snacc\u201D, for example, in the promoter statement. It would have to be the name of the person, if you like, as recognised in the register of births, deaths, and marriages, of whatever country the person may have originated from, including New Zealand. But it must be the recognised name for official purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EFinally, the member asks whether the reference to\u2014I think in clause 17, proposed new section 221A(1)(b)\u2014the person\u2019s place of residence or business should be changed to be an address where the person might be reasonably expected to be found. Again, we don\u2019t have that form of words in any other place where the person is expected to provide an address, and that, I think, answers all the questions posed so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c34019aab6214913b290b7eefc87e0ef\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7ba6ace00454de8984211fe8f84a360\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7ba6ace00454de8984211fe8f84a360\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E It is not unusual in debates of this type for people to stand up and suggest all sorts of other names for a bill, suggesting they might be adopted by the committee as more appropriate to describe the bill. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s necessary in this case. It is an amendment, albeit that these amendments are somewhat minor and probably missed the point of what is most in front of the public at the present time. But what does strike us as a little strange is the bill coming into effect\u2014it\u2019s unclear: does it come into effect with the Royal assent, with these other parts delayed until 1 January or 1 April? So it says, \u201Cthis Act, except sections 15 and 16, comes into force on 1 January 2020\u201D, so that\u2019s when the assent is given to it. The assent is given before that, but it\u2019s effective from that date. I take it that\u2019s the\u2014thank you for the nod from the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWell, that gives quite a few days, potentially, for people to round up anonymous donations. Now, I stand here as part of a party that declares those donations. Most parties in here do; one, apparently, doesn\u2019t. It just seems odd that Cabinet decided to allow\u2014given that this bill will probably pass today, 3 December\u2014some 27 days or so, perhaps 25 days when we take out statutories, three weeks, to go out and round up a swag of anonymous donations and to load them into the kitty. Now, you know, the Minister\u2019s got a very interesting look on his face. I don\u2019t know that he wouldn\u2019t have thought about this, but it seems to me that that is odd. So we would like to know the reason for that gap. The Governor-General is in New Zealand; it would be possible to have this bill signed this afternoon, in fact. Even if the Clerk says, well, they want a couple of days to tidy it up, it\u2019s not unusual for bills to go up in their rough state to get the assent, particularly bills that are done under urgency. So it has to be a public question that should be answered: why has there been urgency afforded to give effect to the lowering of the threshold for anonymous donations, when, in fact, there is a three-week\u2014at least\u2014window where those anonymous donations can go through under the current arrangements? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe next bit\u2019s unclear also. Why would you have clauses 15 and 16, which relate to the issue we were just talking of before, I believe it was the residency of the general secretary\u2014I\u2019ll stand corrected on that. But perhaps it would be a good idea for the Minister to briefly tell us why those two clauses, particularly, are left out. In here it\u2019s the party secretary, and the meaning of the word \u201Cparty secretary\u201D. Why do we have to wait until April for those to become effective in the law? Is there a need for, perhaps, one of the Government parties to sort out its arrangements in the three and a half months that they\u2019re going to have\u2014nearly four months, actually, from this point\u2014to reach the 1 April deadline? That\u2019s somewhat inexplicable. If there is a simple explanation, then I think it would be useful for the Minister to give that explanation to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe next part of this, of course, is to agree that this bill amends the Electoral Act 1993. Well, I think it would be inappropriate for us to all agree to vote for this\u2014bar one\u2014and then not to agree to this part. But it would be interesting to hear from the Minister what his intentions are for the wider consideration of the Electoral Act. Will this bill before the House today, under urgency, be the last Electoral Amendment Bill prior to the 2020 election? That is a pretty crucial point in my view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo there are three things. Could we know, from the Minister, why there\u2019s this three-week gap where there seems to be a moratorium on compliance with the new law, that will be passed today, for the receipt of anonymous donations? Why do we have to wait until 1 April for there to be compliance on the residential impost on whoever is secretary of the party? And, finally, what\u2019s the process from here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022593b108d486c4dbfa6af6a4636a77a82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022593b108d486c4dbfa6af6a4636a77a82\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Gerry Brownlee for that contribution. Look, the commencement is as you would expect, because particularly in relation to the obligations on party general secretaries, it allows time for both the Electoral Commission to prepare any guidance on the application of the new provisions but also on party general secretaries to ensure that they have systems and processes in place ready to go. They may well have to get some endorsement from their respective governing boards, which they might have to do in a reasonably hasty period of time at a busy time of the year. Look, if there are members who think that between now and 31 December they can hustle around and cobble together some foreign donations compliant with the current law, fill their boots, I suppose\u2014but I doubt whether that\u2019s going to be practically possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe next question was about the 1 April residential requirement. Again, that is just a reasonable time for both the residential requirement and the advertising requirement. In the event there are arrangements in place where a party doesn\u2019t comply with those things or there is advertising booked that has not yet had a promoted statement put on it, there is time to rectify that to get through the busy Christmas and New Year period in a reasonable time to get various houses in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe final question was: what is the process from here? There is one other piece of legislation that commenced before, the Electoral Amendment Bill\u2014(No 1)\u2014which has already started. It\u2019s working its way through the process. That is the one that creates a better chance for more people to cast their vote\u2014particularly, for example, the 19,000 on election day in 2017 who turned up to a ballot booth, weren\u2019t on the roll, and could not enrol. So those changes are still making their way through the House, subject to, obviously, the dictates of this House. I reasonably expect that bill to be passed in the early part of next year so that by the time we get to the election\u2014and certainly the regulated period\u2014all rules applying to next year\u2019s election will be known and understood, the information out there, parties fully compliant, candidates fully compliant, and we will have a very happy 2020 general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022f53ef21226694e58ae785e021985e889\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f53ef21226694e58ae785e021985e889\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to pick up on a couple of those themes as originally raised by my colleague the Hon Gerry Brownlee, and which the Minister of Justice, Andrew Little, has touched on as well, just looking at the date on which most of the Act will come into force being 1 January. With respect, I\u2019m not sure that I heard a good answer in relation to the immediate effect, essentially, that the Act could come into force with. I don\u2019t think that anything that is needed to be arranged by way of special arrangement needs to take as long as all the way into the New Year. So a mechanism might be something like \u201Cimmediately come into force\u201D or perhaps \u201Ctwo days after the time that the Act comes into force.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut it also would have been available to the Minister to specify a particular calendar date. I mean, maybe some time in this month\u2014it could even be tomorrow, whatever tomorrow might be. I\u2019m just looking around for a calendar. Well, actually, that\u2019s interesting\u2014the calendar says 3 December, but in the real world it\u2019s 4 December, because we\u2019re still in urgency. So I guess we could say 5 December would be perhaps the day it would come in. Ordinarily, of course, you wouldn\u2019t take the risk of putting a particular calendar date, because you don\u2019t know when a bit of legislation\u2019s going to pass, except that when you put the House into urgency to go through all stages\u2014even in the circumstance where, almost exactly to the minute, it\u2019s 24 hours since the Opposition first became aware of the bill\u2014then you do have the luxury of knowing the point at which it will be passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo it is that I would suggest to the Minister that even at this late stage it\u2019s not too late. If we\u2019re going to do the urgent thing, we might as well really do it properly, and let\u2019s be as urgent as possible about it, if that seems to be the mood of the House overall, even if not on this side in terms of the extremeness of the urgency. Well, having passed it and having bypassed the ability ourselves to sort of cut ourselves off at the knees in terms of having a reasonable process for the scrutiny of the thing, then we might as well have it applying as soon as reasonably possible\u2014which I would suggest is tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMr Brownlee makes a good point about the availability of the Governor-General to sign things into law. I can confirm\u2014having worked in the viceregal household, admittedly a couple of Governors-General ago\u2014these things can be pretty easily managed, particularly if the aide-de-camp is so efficient at taking faxes off hotel reception, as at least one was in the distant past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, anyway, that\u2019s as to date regarding all the exceptions except for sections 15 and 16, but as for those two, I suppose that it\u2019s possible that certain arrangements have to be made in relation to the party secretary living in New Zealand. But nearly four months seems pretty generous for that, and I don\u2019t know what sorts of arrangements need to be made; a sort of pretty grand way of saying that you\u2019ve got to sort of live here or you don\u2019t. I suppose a board might be expected to re-designate someone else or sort of appoint someone. But four months to do that in the context of something that\u2019s supposedly so urgent that we can\u2019t take more than 24 hours to consider it from start to finish does seem pretty luxurious or at least not in keeping with the extent of urgency which we\u2019ve seen passing the substantive parts of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for the Facebook ads, well, I sort of do take the point that it might be that a little bit of lag time is needed for advertising that\u2019s already booked and locked in. But, really, nearly four months to allow an advertising campaign to run through\u2014I\u2019m pretty confident that there will be a lot more political issues that we can criticise the Government about between now and 1 April. We\u2019ll be rebooking ads, no doubt, and for New Zealanders too who want to be participating in the electoral process, and the Government as well, to be fair, you know, they\u2019ll have their own particular issues that they want to promote. I expect that there probably won\u2019t be a lot of ads that are still running then that are running now that can have this sort of no man\u2019s land of being unaddressed and unnamed with the true name, as the legislation says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I wonder if we could sort of have a bit of a shorter period on that one, maybe encourage people to unbook the ads if they\u2019re offensive\u2014or, actually, really, just simply add a name and address, because that\u2019s the only requirement that\u2019s changing, that\u2019s the only sort of operative bit within the legislation to bring it in line. I won\u2019t go back into that detail because we\u2019ve talked about the fact that it will bring into line the online world with the non-online world, and that\u2019s sort of a worthwhile thing, but it shouldn\u2019t take so long in an online environment, which, among its virtues, is so quick to react, and can be. So we would suggest that there\u2019s no reason that that couldn\u2019t come into force much sooner than 1 April 2020, seeing as we\u2019re doing this thing with such indecent haste in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2) without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e0d867f5ad944b338f2861bf1868b62a\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022076f2fa344af441dbc5cd1748ead4e07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022076f2fa344af441dbc5cd1748ead4e07\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very thankful for the very thoroughgoing examination of this bill by the House at the committee stage, and I know members are always uncomfortable\u2014members on this side of the House, certainly, when we were in Opposition, and including members opposite now that they are in Opposition\u2014on matters that go through under urgency. It is very important, therefore, that when we do consider legislation under urgency, we try to keep it confined to very discrete, specific points, and that is what we\u2019re aiming to do here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe reason why this bill is here in its form and being considered under urgency is because we had expected, or I had certainly expected, that the very thoroughgoing inquiry that the Justice Committee has been conducting into the 2017 general election, amongst other things, might have been completed by now and we might have had the benefit of their wisdom and their report-back that would have informed changes relevant to the 2020 general election. That has not happened, and I draw no conclusions as a result of that\u2014that is just a fact. We are drawing very rapidly to the close of this year, and next year is a general election year. I know from the advice I\u2019ve received from our independent Electoral Commission that any statutory changes that they are required to act under and possibly to administer, they need to have advance notice of well in advance of the election and well in advance of the regulated period. So if we want to make changes that are important, that are significant, and that are necessary, then we have to make them really well in time for the next general election, and I regard that as before the beginning of the year that is the general election year. So that is what has brought us here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill deals with a very real risk. I don\u2019t have to canvass that yet again, but it is known to members of this House that members of the Justice Committee have seen and heard the evidence that has been public\u2014and, in fact, it\u2019s pretty clear they\u2019ve seen and heard evidence that is certainly not yet public\u2014and it is pretty clear that like many democracies around the world, ours is vulnerable to those abroad who would seek to interfere in our democratic processes and influence the outcome. One way of doing that is by financing political parties or candidates and sometimes causes, and so this bill seeks to address that very real risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve seen some commentary that says it doesn\u2019t deal with that risk. I\u2019ve seen commentary from some pretty esteemed academics, actually, who say that. Now, I have to say this to the House: they are wrong\u2014they are wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does, through a combination of factors: banning foreign donations, with the exception of the $50 de minimis threshold; secondly, placing a clear due diligence requirement on party general secretaries that will apply effectively\u2014because the only way of fulfilling that due diligence duty can happen is by applying it to all donations over $50, and party general secretaries will await the guidance from the Electoral Commission about how that will work in practice. But I say to this House that my expectation is that the application of that due diligence requirement will be proportionate to the level of the donation. The smaller the donation, the less evident activity there needs to be, but the bigger the donation, then the more due diligence is required, and it is pretty standard\u2014has been for many decades, as anybody who has been involved in New Zealand politics will know for many decades\u2014that many provisions in the Electoral Act are subject to guidance by the Electoral Commission. That\u2019s standard\u2014that\u2019s pretty standard. Nothing unusual about that at all\u2014no constitutional crisis to see here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s the due diligence requirement, and then the third element\u2014the belt and braces element\u2014is the defence to a charge relating to the failure to disclose or to properly deal with a foreign donation is that the party general secretary needs to point to the reasonable steps taken in the circumstances that they undertook. There is a slightly technical argument in relation to the due diligence requirements where it refers to \u201Ca donation\u201D followed by a reference to \u201Cthe donation\u201D, and I know that even in a third reading speech we shouldn\u2019t be sort of dancing on the heads of various pins, but those words are important. As this House hears many times from members all across the House, words mean something. Those words do mean something, and so the commentators, the academics, and, most importantly, the members opposite need to look closely at those words, and when they do\u2014and when they divorce themselves from the contemporary issues of who is trying to defeat the spirit of the Electoral Act worst\u2014they will see that these words actually do mean something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThese provisions will make a serious difference and help us to attenuate that real risk that has become evident of undue foreign interference and undue influence. So, on that basis, I\u2019m very thankful for the scrutiny that has been applied from the House. I\u2019m very thankful for the overwhelming support that the bill has received. I believe it will serve the members in this House, the parties who are represented here, the parties who are not represented here, and, in the end, the most important people in our democracy\u2014the voters\u2014very well as we head into the 2020 general election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002290010018c85d4950935df1e951a76113\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290010018c85d4950935df1e951a76113\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E This is terrible lawmaking. This is a bill that was published only yesterday, and it is now proceeding to its third reading stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re an unusual country in that we do not have our electoral law protected by a constitution. There has been a longstanding convention in this Parliament that electoral law changes are made on a cross-party basis\u2014a convention that was observed by all three of our Ministers of Justice. What we have here is this Minister of Justice ramming legislation through for no good reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EHe says it\u2019s on the basis of wanting to improve our democracy. It does the opposite. One of the essentials of our democracy is this institution of Parliament, and when we want to change the law, we have a set-down process by which a bill has a first reading, it goes to a select committee, we have experts that are able to submit and advise, the public gets an opportunity to be able to have a say, and a bill goes through its later stages of scrutiny. Do not pretend that this Parliament has given any real scrutiny to this bill. Not a single member of the Labour, New Zealand First, or Green parties took a single call during the committee stages of this bill. It was a farce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen, let\u2019s look at the substantive issue in the regulatory impact statement. This bill is presented as an answer to the issue of foreign donations, and so it is materially important as to how many donations have been coming in. Well, here are the facts. Over the last seven years, the average amount of foreign donations coming into New Zealand was $5,000 per year. It\u2019s an average of 60 donations, averaging about $66 each, and what this bill says is that there\u2019s going to be a ban on those of over $50. So let\u2019s be clear: we\u2019re talking about an issue that\u2019s about $5,000 per year. My question to members opposite is why are we rushing a bill through Parliament over the issue of foreign donations of $5,000 a year but ignoring the elephant in the Parliament\u2014the $840,000 elephant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe outcome of the 2017 election was unusual. For the first time in the history of New Zealand, the party that got the most votes and the most seats did not become the Government. That was determined by New Zealand First. So the outcome of who is the Government, who, every day, gets to makes decisions for this wonderful country of 5 million people, was determined by New Zealand First. And what we know of New Zealand First is they have a secret foundation in which they received $500,000 of donations, and, furthermore, they had $340,000 of anonymous donations\u201410 times more than any other political party. We know that the president of the New Zealand First Party resigned last month because of moral reasons over that party\u2019s financial issues\u2014and somehow we\u2019re to ignore all of that in this debate about improving our electoral law. As Duncan Garner said so accurately, he smells a rat\u2014and he is absolutely correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI pointed out in the committee stage that there are three major weaknesses in this bill. The first is: the one instance of proven corruption in our New Zealand Parliament involved Labour MP Phillip Field. Labour MP Phillip Field went to jail for taking bribes for getting people New Zealand residency. There isn\u2019t a member of Parliament in this House that does not face pressure every single week\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022823e401e58d847788151933bf637eebf\u0022\u003EHon Meka Whaitiri\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that got to do with the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f0a53222a8549c09b183b68fe955235\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014about granting residency and citizenship for our country. The member interjects and asks: why is that relevant? I\u2019ll tell you why: because in the definition of who is a non - New Zealander and can donate for political parties, a person who is in New Zealand on a work permit or someone who has applied for refugee status in New Zealand is able to make a political donation under the detail of this bill that that member did not even bother to engage in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAnd so I do say that if we are worried about ensuring New Zealand keeps its reputation\u2014which the National Government bequeathed in 2017; the least corrupt, most transparent country in the world was New Zealand\u2019s international ranking in 2017\u2014then we do need to recognise the risk and the desperation that some people have to be a resident of this beautiful country. And why would this bill say those people can\u2019t vote but they can donate to political parties? That is a big gap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIn the committee stage, I moved an amendment. The amendment said we should not put up with the farce of New Zealand First having a foundation that collected over a half a million dollars of secret donations\u2014that they should be included in the ban. What is the point of having a ban on foreign donations if all a political party needs to do is to set up a foundation, get the cheques in, and then provide it as a loan or to directly do advertising. It is a gaping hole in this bill that you could drive a truck through. Yet members opposite\u2014and the Green Party, the sanctimonious Green Party\u2014voted against an amendment that would incorporate foundations and incorporated societies so that there would be some robustness to the proposals around banning foreign donations. The truth is, this bill is all about politics and not about substance. It is so characteristic of the Government this year\u2014long on rhetoric, very short on delivery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI was interested to hear the Minister dismiss the views of Professor Andrew Geddis from Otago University. So often that Minister says, \u201COh, all the experts are wrong.\u201D Andrew Geddis pointed out that this bill is indeed a very weak response, an inadequate response, if we are serious about protecting New Zealand from foreign influences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe most disgraceful part of the debate on this bill was the contribution by the Deputy Prime Minister. This is a guy who, when questioned by journalists about those hundreds of thousands of dollars of secret donations\u2014when he was questioned about these sorts of issues\u2014referred to the journalist as a psycho. Do members of the Green Party and the Labour Party support that? That is disgraceful, and I am appalled that members opposite condone that sort of behaviour from the Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe reason the National Party feels strongly about these issues is actually that one of the most precious parts of New Zealand is the strength of our democracy. We have the fourth oldest continuous Parliament in the world. We have a deep tradition of respecting the right for the public to decide in New Zealand on their Governments, free speech, and the processes of this Parliament, and what this Government has shown, time and time again, is that for political convenience and opportunism, it is prepared to ride roughshod over those democratic traditions. That\u2019s why we\u2019re whacking through this electoral amendment bill in less than 24 hours. That\u2019s why the Government\u2019s taking away the decision on referendum from this Parliament and giving it to the Cabinet. That\u2019s why the Government, with Green Party support, voted for a bill that would allow party leaders and not the public to dismiss members of Parliament, something that Rod Donald and Jeanette Fitzsimons and the founders of the Green Party would be rolling in their graves over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268066f6c1a24490b99b3a62203f83a64\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s not dead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea6851ca583445098be3d8231ba17a23\u0022\u003EGolriz Ghahraman\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s not. Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db34c1c40eca43f2a2fb7e1e97f3b22a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I know that the Greens are laughing. That\u2019s their attitude. I remember when the Greens used to rally against bills being passed under urgency. They\u2019ve become so unprincipled that they are an embarrassment to the founders of that party. There is nothing as precious as our democracy. There is no area of law that is as important as electoral law. This is no way in which to go about changing those fundamentals of the way in which members of Parliament are elected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022d30e7e76d95848a783b80ea30cff6724\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d30e7e76d95848a783b80ea30cff6724\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Otir\u0101, e Te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. Protecting New Zealand\u2019s democracy by addressing the real threat of foreign interference through donations and electoral advertising is what this bill aims to address. I\u2019m proud to stand and support the third and final reading of the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the member who has just resumed his seat, Nick Smith, for also supporting this important issue and this bill. It is really something that we want to take to the election next year. We\u2019ve been very, very clear on expectations around foreign donations, and the Minister Andrew Little has outlined the threshold about $50.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EBut we also, in this bill, talk about the expectations of party secretaries to ensure that the due diligence expected of them is also outlined in this bill in collaboration with the Electoral Commission, and the defence of taking reasonable steps to ensure that that particular expectation isn\u2019t breached. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIt is a bill, like the Minister said, that as we go into the start of the election year next year, we want to be very clear that we are banning foreign donations up to $50, and of the expectations of due diligence from party secretaries. It is part of a wider piece of electoral reform that we will be bringing into play on the side of the House. It\u2019s an important issue that all parties in this House have been talking about\u2014and the general public\u2014for months on end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIt is a simple bill to address that. I commend it to the House and look forward to its passage through the House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022caa65ef712d94b6f923aa5cd2d3a74ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022caa65ef712d94b6f923aa5cd2d3a74ab\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville): \u003C/span\u003EThank you very much, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s good to have yet another opportunity to speak to the Electoral Amendment Bill (No\u00A02). At this, the third and final reading, I thought it might be helpful to provide a bit of a summary of what we\u2019ve heard over the last 24 hours\u2014in fact, less than 24 hours in terms of, actually, the debate happening\u2014to explain, first of all, and separate the process from the substance of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe fact of the bill existing and the fact of it being something that would be subject to urgency was unexpected, unexplained, and unnecessary. We\u2019ve talked a lot in previous stages, and I won\u2019t reiterate all those points, but in the spirit of a third reading debate, where it\u2019s helpful to place on record the way that things have played out over the course of the debate, albeit the short course of the debate, as a matter of record, we wish to say on this side of the House that we don\u2019t understand or agree with the idea that such urgency was needed in the context of a select committee process\u2014the Justice Committee\u2014that is taking place and will report back any year now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo one of the interesting points that was made in the debate, I think, was about the quantum of what this bill is actually looking to achieve. The analysis by the Hon Gerry Brownlee was that, essentially, it\u2019s a $16 problem. The maths behind that was something along the lines of the average overseas donation being $66. Here we\u2019ve got a bill that reduces down to $50 the amount that can be kept\u2014so the difference, of course, is $16. So we\u2019re really going to a lot of effort outside of a process that would inevitably have reformed this area anyway to stop $16 worth of donations per time from an overseas person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s about the amount of a block of cheese\u2014Tasty cheese; the only real kind, of course\u2014and it\u2019s sort of ironic that the phrase I associate with the making of cheese is that good things take time. I think the same could be said of legislative processes. The old adage was that the two things that you should never see being made are sausages and laws. Well, I think a block of cheese would be an appropriate way to describe the problem that the Government\u2019s intending to solve in relation to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI should be really clear that on this side of the House, we do think that there is a problem. We do think that in relation to overseas donations, there is a need for reform. You\u2019ll be aware, and others will be aware, that we are supporting the bill. It is worth supporting because it does at least something in the right direction, albeit that we\u2019ve disagreed as to process and also some of the particulars about the way that it could actually achieve its aim much better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ll just pass to those thoughts now about the way that the particular law will operate, and a few missed opportunities along the way. Inevitably, it will be the case that we\u2019ve missed opportunities as a Parliament, specifically because of the process having been so rushed. So I\u2019ll sort of refer to those in passing as a general theme of the procedural shortfalls, but really I\u2019m just focussing on a couple of particular things that we could have made somewhat better, including by way of an amendment that was actually put forward and voted down. Dr Smith has talked about that already, and I\u2019ll just do so briefly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo the first point on the substance of the bill is just that the limited time has limited our opportunity to ensure that the scope is everything that it could be. In relation to local government, the bill says specifically\u2014explicitly\u2014that it doesn\u2019t apply to local elections. Well, it\u2019s good to have that clarity, except that it is a missed opportunity, because many people have been thinking about electoral law reform, both within this Parliament and within that, even tighter still, the Justice Committee and others who have been talking in the general sphere of public life have been identifying a real gap in our statute book whereby we\u2019ve got a Local Electoral Act on the one hand\u2014and Electoral Act, by implication relating to non-local matters; central government, essentially\u2014that are not aligned, even in very basic key areas that you\u2019d expect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo it is that we\u2019ve still got, after today, after all the heat and light of this process under urgency, a regime in New Zealand whereby local government candidates or parties\u2014you know, we might call tickets, but roughly speaking, we\u2019ve got actors in the local government space standing for election, able to receive donations of any amount, I think, of any provenance whatsoever, and we\u2019ve not taken the opportunity to limit it in any way. Actually, ideally, we\u2019d be aligning the two\u2014that is, the electoral and the local electoral legislation\u2014in that way. It would have been an easy matter from a drafting point of view. On this side of the House, we proved it, even in the short period of time that we had available, by preparing an amendment. We never got the chance to actually table that, but at least some on this side of the House\u2014and I think the Hon Tim Macindoe was one of them\u2014did at least speak to that distinction, that meaningless distinction, or a distinction that shouldn\u2019t be meaningful, I should say, between the local and the central space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EHe made such points about the lack of scrutiny in the local government space as compared with this place, here in Parliament. I sort of motion up in the direction of the press gallery symbolically, because we\u2019ve got them physically here, but we\u2019ve also got a lot of attention to the affairs of this House. I look down the barrel of the camera of Parliament TV and note that we are scrutinised here in decision making, as decision makers, in a way that local government is not, and probably never will be. So in terms of a donations regime\u2014which is, after all, at the heart of this bill\u2014from overseas or anonymous sources, surely it makes sense to have no less scrutiny and no less restriction in relation to donations made to local government election candidates. That\u2019s before we even go on to the question of the fact that local government elected officials can make very powerful decisions, very valuable decisions, in the context of resource consent matters and so forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy next point is really regarding the scope of the bill\u2014not only which big picture, big ticket items are captured, as I\u2019ve already discussed, but actually even within the bill itself and even in the provisions that are being changed. We\u2019ve missed an opportunity where we\u2019re talking about overseas persons and donations that are made to parties or candidates, but what we haven\u2019t actually changed, unfortunately, is a scenario where we have trusts, foundations\u2014yes, and companies. That could have been an amendment too. That could have been made by any member of the House, including the Green Party, whereby we say, \u201CWell, it\u2019s not good enough simply to be incorporated in New Zealand, or to have a head office here in the case of a company carrying on business here, maybe, but completely foreign-owned, not owned by New Zealanders.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThat seems as though the intent of the bill, which, nominally, was to reduce the prospect of undue foreign interference\u2014we\u2019ve really missed the trick on that one collectively. On the National Party side of things, we can say, at least, that we tried and we had an amendment in there. The Minister said that he thought it strange that the amendment didn\u2019t go as far as he might have expected. Well, that\u2019s fine. We could have amended that further, or he could have amended our amendment to his original, and we could have got there in the end\u2014opportunity missed again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy final comment or two regards a couple of the discussions that have been had about the way that the electoral law will be applied. The Minister made a suggestion about the way that he could say\u2014in fact, he has been saying to the Electoral Commission\u2014that if a donation is just a bit over $50, which is the threshold, then you don\u2019t need to look too hard, but if it\u2019s a lot more than the $50 threshold, then a lot of scrutiny should be applied. On a common-sense basis, that sort of sounds pretty reasonable, but it\u2019s not in the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThen the argument evolves from the Minister to say something like, \u201CWell, it would be common that the Electoral Commission could give guidance about the way that the law is applied, so you don\u2019t need everything written in the law, but you might reasonably expect that the Electoral Commission could give some guidance about that.\u201D Well, that\u2019s fine, but what we have had in the last 24 hours is the Minister giving that guidance to the Electoral Commission, who in turn will be applying it to all political parties, including the Minister\u2019s own, including, you know, Her Majesty\u2019s loyal Opposition and any other players that might be around at the time of the next election, and so on. That seems a strange way to approach lawmaking, where a thorough job is not done. We sort of appear to be filling in the gaps on the basis of how Minister Little feels it should play out when these matters come to a head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWe also had a brief but extraordinary contribution from Winston Peters, not so much a speech as him telling us what the voices in his head are telling him. So we sort of don\u2019t need to dwell on that much further. Just to say: a worthwhile aim of the bill; pity about the process, but we\u2019ll support it none the less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00229bbd28eabae34549a79d2516c126132d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bbd28eabae34549a79d2516c126132d\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. A disappointing contribution from Mr Penk there, taking a cheap swipe at the Deputy Prime Minister. I would have thought a man of his talents would look at the substance of the issue before this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhat I wanted to do here, just very briefly, was just note the fact that this bill is well pitched. There has been some discussion about the obligation on party secretaries to look into where donations come from, and some criticism of it. I think that criticism is quite unfounded, because if we do look at clause 8, which inserts new section 207JA, it talks about the secretary having to take all reasonable steps\u2014it\u2019s kind of got two branches to it\u2014in the circumstances. So if you\u2019ve got a $51 donation, obviously the sky won\u2019t fall if that\u2019s come from overseas, but you\u2019re not expected to spend a thousand dollars trying to find out where that came from. So in the circumstance this is an absolute signal to the Electoral Commission and to the courts that this is a proportional question\u2014that you take the steps that are proportionate to the risk. Now, if you were to get $150,000 through a strangely named overseas company, you\u2019d expect some very robust investigations to be undertaken there. In particular, you\u2019d want to be sure that not only was it not by an overseas person, but it also wasn\u2019t made \u201Con behalf of\u201D an overseas person\u2014the other words used in this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo this is a very well-pitched piece of legislation. We\u2019re not holding it up. We\u2019re not delaying improving our electoral law. This is an excellent piece of legislation. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022421518bb817949d3a93dc8be9518c730\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022421518bb817949d3a93dc8be9518c730\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you very much, Madam Speaker. What a sad process we\u2019ve gone through over the last 18 or 19 hours as we\u2019ve considered this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe first point I want to make is the Government\u2019s press release and, in fact, their whole behaviour over this is, as David Seymour says, \u201Cpantomime\u201D. This is not a ban; this is the lowering of an already low threshold from $1,500 to $50. So any claim by the Government that this is a ban and that this eliminates foreign donations is just wrong\u2014any attempt by the Government to claim that it is is incorrect. That\u2019s been pointed out by us and it\u2019s been pointed out by numerous commentators. So that\u2019s the first point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second point is\u2014and we have litigated this at length on this side of the House\u2014the process leading up to this has been appalling. Now, it is true that the Justice Committee has taken quite some time over the inquiry into the 2017 election\u2014that is correct. There are good reasons for the length of time it has taken. One reason is that at the start of the inquiry we decided not to include the 2016 local election inquiry, and then we decided to include it. The second reason is that the Minister decided to\u2014not instruct us\u2014ask us to consider the matter of foreign donations, and we have been doing that; well, the committee\u2019s been doing that. I\u2019m, sadly\u2014or not so sadly\u2014no longer on the committee. But the committee has been doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, these are tricky issues. The issue of the extent of foreign interference in New Zealand elections, or the attempted foreign interference, is something that the committee has been hearing evidence on, but also there\u2019s the issue of what you do about that. Now, this is a sliver of the possible remedies to the mischief of foreign interference in New Zealand elections. This is literally the merest sliver of what you could do as a Parliament to respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIf you want an example of some of the things that I think the committee is probably considering, it\u2019s the submission of Anne-Marie Brady, who\u2019s made, I think, at least one submission to the committee. She\u2019s been on Twitter this morning, outlining her possible remedies. None of that is in the bill; not a single thing. So this is literally the merest sliver of a thing that you could do. As various commentators have pointed out\u2014both in this House and also in the media\u2014you could drive a truck through it in terms of the protections that the Government purports to be putting in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo the process has been a shocker. Yes it\u2019s true that the committee has sat on these issues for quite a long time, but we on this side of the House do not believe that justifies the Government, basically, in the case of the Minister, throwing a tantrum and deciding that, because he\u2019s the Minister and, by definition, he\u2019s got the number in the Parliament, he can just basically take an idea, turn up to the House, and decide on Tuesday morning, \u201COh well, I\u2019ll put the House into urgency and we\u2019ll ram it through and we\u2019ll pass it through all stages by Wednesday morning, by half past 12 before the House lifts for lunchtime\u201D. Just because the committee has taken a long time, does not justify doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EActually, I believe, from my time on the committee, the report of the committee will be a good report. It will be a substantive report. It will be a comprehensive report. The reason it will be is: firstly, because it\u2019s taken quite a long to get there; secondly, because there are some good people on the committee with real legal expertise and real investment in the issues; and, thirdly, committee members have taken a serious look at the issues, because these are critical issues for our democracy. On the issue of local elections, for example, there\u2019s widespread agreement, I think, across the Parliament that local elections are conducted poorly, turnout is a shocker, we need to improve it, we need to reform the way we do that. So the committee report will be good on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere is widespread agreement that we need to protect against foreign interference in our elections. The committee, I\u2019m sure, will produce a substantive report in relation to some of the suggestions that have come forward from commentators like Anne-Marie Brady and others. There will be a whole series of improvements that the committee recommends for the conduct of general elections more generally in light of the experience at the 2017 election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOur point is Parliament should have waited for that committee to report. So that\u2019s the second point about poor process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a598227bbc48475aa4d173b5fe2d76c7\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255e880ac478d4794854e36cf04f8e5ad\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, members opposite laugh, but, I mean, the process that is always followed following elections is that you have a bipartisan committee that considers the issues, there\u2019s generally a bipartisan report, it comes forward, any amendment bills come forward, it generally passes through with bipartisan support, and we incrementally improve the operations of our elections. Actually, that\u2019s been a pretty good process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe third point I want to make is there is no need for urgency\u2014absolutely no need. Members opposite have not even tried. They have not even attempted to justify the urgency with which we are considering this legislation. It can\u2019t be that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dabbd8e1fc34161bd2e1ceacd380cb0\u0022\u003EGolriz Ghahraman\u003C/span\u003E: Yes they have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c374d2cddfb84677baa65bfe32346e19\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014well, Golriz Ghahraman says, \u201CYes we have.\u201D Well, that is completely not true. For the Greens to stand up\u2014the sanctimonious Greens, who spent nine years, when National was in Government, lecturing the Parliament about urgency being an abuse of democracy and it being, you know, dictatorial and all these other synonyms for fascism, for the Greens to then, essentially, just roll over and support this legislation under urgency, I think, is appalling. I think people will judge them for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo many members on the Government side have not even tried to justify the use of urgency for this legislation. If that was the case that there was this flood of donations between $50 and $1,500 that, you know, somehow we\u2019d known about because the commission had disclosed it or told the Minister or something, and he\u2019d made that public, and we had to really crack down, literally overnight, and stop these donations coming in, well, that would be fair enough. That would be reasonable. That might be a case for urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a bit like when the Minister finds out that a bunch of warrants for officers have been improperly or invalidly issued and there might be an issue to do with whether or not people have been legally arrested. Well, that\u2019s, of course, a case for urgency, because the Parliament will want to act swiftly to erase any legal doubt about those arrests. Well, that\u2019s totally justified. As I say, if it was true that there was a flood of foreign donations that we must stop, OK, there\u2019d be a case for urgency, but no one\u2019s made that case\u2014no one has made that case. There\u2019s deafening silence from members. There is literally no justification for urgency in relation to this bill. Barry Soper, I think, this morning or last night, had it completely right, which is he said it\u2019s the worst excesses of what Government does when it\u2019s on the ropes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s be clear about why we\u2019re debating this in urgency on Tuesday night and Wednesday morning. Let\u2019s be clear about why we\u2019re doing it. The Government\u2019s under pressure. New Zealand First Foundation\u2019s in the media\u2014the excesses of the foundation are, particularly\u2014on Radio New Zealand and in the media. The Government doesn\u2019t like it. In the last 48 hours, there\u2019s been a grotesque breach of privacy through the Government\u2019s own incompetent management of the gun buy-back scheme. It\u2019s been a shocker of a week\u2014or last two weeks, actually\u2014for the Government and a terrible poll on Monday night for the Government. So what do we do? Andrew Little turns up. Hey, Andrew Little, the strategic mastermind who led them to 23 percent. He\u2019s turned up on Tuesday morning and he said to Chris Hipkins, the Leader of the House, \u201CI\u2019ve got the answer. The answer is: let\u2019s go into urgency and ram through a pitiful, small sliver of a bill so that we can distract everyone.\u201D It\u2019s Boris Johnson\u2019s dead cat theory. You know\u2014you throw a dead cat on a trampoline and everyone goes, \u201CWhat are you doing?\u201D He says, \u201COh, it\u2019s a dead cat.\u201D and everyone\u2019s talking about the dead cat. It\u2019s exactly the same. [Interruption] It\u2019s exactly the same. [Interruption] It\u2019s exactly the same tactic that they\u2019re operating, which is, \u201CLet\u2019s just have a debate about something that\u2019s totally, totally near pointless.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAnd that\u2019s the fourth point that I want to finish on, which is the bill does very little. You read the regulatory impact statement\u2014it even says that. The best that the regulatory impact statement can muster in support of the bill is that it sends a message. That\u2019s it\u2014that it sends a message. This bill, we support it. You know, in so far as it goes, it\u2019s a sensible bill but the process has been a shocker and this Government\u2019s got no idea what it\u2019s doing. Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbd8d4b161c04d67b9ec18e37e7dd756\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbd8d4b161c04d67b9ec18e37e7dd756\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise in support of this bill. It is a step forward to recognising that our electoral donation system needs reform. I was delighted to see the Government pick up this particular measure out of my strengthening democracy member\u2019s bill, which introduces a suite of reforms and we will continue to look further and further into making our democracy fairer because that is a priority for this Government. We live in a global context where democracy has been undermined by big money interference, whether that\u2019s foreign interference, whether that\u2019s multinational companies, whether that\u2019s domestic actors with far more to invest, as they would see it, into our political system, shutting out ordinary voters. And that isn\u2019t the way it\u2019s meant to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EBut we knew that New Zealand was vulnerable and we, in particular, as Greens, know that our issues are vulnerable to this type of interference. We know that action on the climate crisis has been slowed for decades by the interests of big oil, by mining companies globally. We know cigarette companies\u2014and the member who just resumed his seat, Chris Bishop, would know a lot about that having been a cigarette lobbyist\u2014have interfered with healthcare reforms, with putting labels on cigarette packaging. We know they did that. We know that the gun lobby in the United States has brought that country\u2019s public safety laws to a standstill for money. So we knew that change needed to be made. Imagine our Parliament sitting here passing our gun law reforms that were so necessary after this year\u2019s terrorist attack in Christchurch, and having to be beholden to big money interests from the gun lobbies elsewhere in the world\u2014and we know they tried. So this is change that is necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EI will go through the bill because there\u2019s been some comments made that were a touch nonsensical. It is a ban on foreign donations. Fifty dollars is the cap, because as they know, the officials said that where people are selling things like raffle tickets, inquiring about the immigration status of someone in a town hall meeting is quite difficult, but we are raising the bar in terms of putting a positive obligation on party secretaries in all other cases to enforce a ban on any foreign donations above that amount, which we say they do have an obligation to regulate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe can talk about urgency. We know, and we\u2019ve heard across the House, everybody admits that the Justice Committee has been reviewing the 2017 election. And also within that and separate from that, they\u2019ve held an inquiry into foreign interference in New Zealand\u2019s democracy. For months and months they\u2019ve heard submissions. They\u2019ve heard submissions from experts, from members of the public, from human rights organisations, and everyone agrees that this ban is necessary, although much more is also necessary. I sat in some of those select committee hearings, although I don\u2019t ordinarily sit on the Justice Committee, but this is a special interest of mine and I do have the member\u2019s bill. So I did sit on some of those sessions, and it was extraordinary, the obstructive attitude taken by at least one member of the Opposition that I won\u2019t name. It was extraordinary the patience that that committee and submitters showed in the face of just absolute disorderly behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWho would want to stop progress on reform of our political donations regime? Who would want to slow that process down? Why would you not want this ban in place before the 2020 election? They know they can\u2019t oppose it publicly. They know the Serious Fraud Office is investigating their political party for receiving a large donation that allegedly was cut up to go under the threshold for anonymity, allegedly by\u2014and incidentally\u2014a foreign businessman. They know they can\u2019t say no to this this year publicly, and there is a saying in politics, \u201CWhen you\u2019ve got no power, you delay.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s what they tried to do. There\u2019s been a process at select committee. There\u2019s been a recommendation to this effect and we weren\u2019t going to let them keep our democracy vulnerable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe Green Party has supported urgency in cases where we know substantively a select committee process has taken place. We did that at the beginning of this Government with the paid parental leave legislation, which the National Party deliberately had delayed. We knew the substance of that bill had been through a select committee process. The process is what\u2019s important, not the tick-boxing. And we won\u2019t let them delay what New Zealanders need from us as a Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been talk of people setting up shell companies to bypass this law. Well, that would be fraud, just as cutting up donations to go under the anonymity threshold is fraud. But first, you need the ban in order to enforce that law. If anyone is setting up a shell company in New Zealand to bypass this law, we would investigate them, just as the Serious Fraud Office is investigating the National Party. If they had, in fact, set up a shell company to bypass this law, they would be guilty of fraud but, first, we need the ban. So that\u2019s that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESomething that people haven\u2019t talked a lot about that\u2019s also in this bill that\u2019s close to my heart and I think really necessary, again, in the global context is that we\u2019re also, apart from the foreign donation ban, requiring people\u2014advertisers, political advertisers\u2014to make themselves known. Now, this is part and parcel of making our system transparent. We know that fake news and all manner of lobbying goes on everywhere else in the world. We know it happens in New Zealand, and we know online, in particular, it\u2019s really easy for those stakeholders to remain anonymous whilst they\u2019re pouring money into advertising that does affect our elections, whether it\u2019s on an issue-by-issue basis or in particular support of a political actor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThis bill makes that system transparent. New Zealanders do need to know who is taking a stake in our democracy, which is also why we need more reform, which is also why my bill seeks to lower the anonymity threshold altogether because actually every political party in this House is able to receive a huge amount of anonymous donations, and that does make our political system opaque. We do need to know if there\u2019s a gun lobby operating here and donating anonymously to our political actors. We do need to know if the oil companies are slowing climate action. And what more we need to know\u2014and I think New Zealanders would be shocked to know\u2014is that we don\u2019t actually have a limit on political donations. We need to introduce one because our democracy shouldn\u2019t be bought and sold on the free market\u2014the free market that they love so much. Simon Bridges was asked about this a couple of weeks ago and he said, \u201COh, well, if we don\u2019t let people pour all the money they want into our democracy, they will breach their freedom of speech.\u201D Imagine thinking that freedom of speech and democracy should be up for sale to the highest bidder. It\u2019s impeding freedom of speech to say that our politicians can be bought and sold if you\u2019ve got the money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo we do need more reform. We actually need the transparency reforms in order to implement this particular change itself. New Zealand does need us to protect the democracy that we hold so dear. We are the second-longest-running free democracy in the world and we should actually be leading when it comes to getting big money out. So I commend this bill to the House. I hope for, and will work towards, further change diligently, and we won\u2019t let them slow us down. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00226d72dc3820b840f68d28a4fe264885a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d72dc3820b840f68d28a4fe264885a2\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E For the benefit of those who may have only recently tuned into this debate, I want to point out that the House, and previously the committee, has now been debating this measure for nearly three hours and 10 minutes this morning and that was the first contribution we\u2019ve heard from the Green Party. That once proud party that has constantly claimed to be champions of democracy and defenders of constitutional precedents and freedoms has today been totally disengaged and failed\u2014failed\u2014to answer, until a couple of minutes ago with Ms Ghahraman, any of the important points that have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWe have heard frequently in this debate highlighted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd98ed42b2e04eb7bcac977baa7fc40e\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Apologise\u2014first reading and second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc1f55cf3974489b8d977fc85074e088\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: I have referred to the three hours and 10 minutes this morning, Ms Curran, and my claim was correct. We have been in committee all morning. She may not have been here, but that is the fact: that was the first contribution all morning from the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206fe037f2bcb41da864ef7f24eba4fb2\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t refer to a member not in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022185647e5ea9c45b8a1bf28f0dcc74123\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you can abuse me now, but you were wrong, and it would be nice to hear your apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ELet me continue. We have been highlighting the fact that Henry Cooke made a very good observation that this is great politics but terrible lawmaking, and that has been emphasised by the failure of Government parties to engage. What we\u2019ve had is Government parties demonstrating their contempt for constitutional conventions, which are very important when it comes to matters of electoral law, and proper parliamentary scrutiny, of which there has been very little because only the National Party has genuinely engaged in this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ENow, since I\u2019m following Ms Ghahraman, let me just point out that according to the regulatory impact statement, it is the Green Party that have received more than 20 times the number of foreign donations than each of the Labour, National, and New Zealand First parties in recent times. Now, we\u2019re not suggesting that that is an indication of something dodgy about the Green Party\u2014I don\u2019t believe that is true. But it is a fact that theirs is the party that has been receiving vastly greater numbers of foreign donations, and so I\u2019m wondering if the Greens are perhaps acknowledging that they\u2019re the problem here. It\u2019s curious, therefore, that no member of the Greens took a call throughout the whole of the committee stage of the debate to explain their support for a measure that bans the means by which they receive much of their funding. I hope, since they haven\u2019t done so in that contribution a moment ago either, that they will at least do so to their public and their increasingly disenchanted supporters, who we know are feeling badly let down by the failure of the Greens to deliver in Government the same sort of energy and principle that they constantly championed when they were in Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also very disappointing that neither the Greens nor the Minister sponsoring this bill from the Labour Party, Andrew Little, demanded answers from their New Zealand First colleagues about the very murky circumstances and lack of transparency over the New Zealand First Party\u2019s foundation, which has emerged as the elephant in the room in this debate. I\u2019m quite sure that it is the matter that is going to receive the greatest media attention and public comment, and rightly so, because\u2014and this is a very important point to put on the record\u2014it\u2019s those three parties opposite that voted down Dr Nick Smith\u2019s tabled amendment, which was designed to bring those foundations into this bill. Well, what a disgrace that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EIt looks as if Mr Patterson might be going to take the next call. If that is the case, would he please explain to the House and to the public why New Zealand First voted down an amendment to bring those foundations into the ambit of this bill. If he doesn\u2019t give us that explanation, then all of the doubt, all of the concern, and all of the murk will remain in the public arena.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ENow, many observers have, quite correctly, observed that that\u2019s the key issue requiring exposure to the disinfectant of sunlight. Yet, as I say, today, Labour, New Zealand First, and the Greens have voted to exclude foundations from this bill\u2019s valid objectives. We in the National Party say shame on them, and it exposes utter hypocrisy in what they\u2019re doing. That\u2019s what the public wanted answers to. That, as I say, is what the media should highlight, and it\u2019s why this bill is so inadequate and simply won\u2019t meet all of its stated objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, I had to leave the House for the last half hour or so of the committee stage, so I\u2019m not sure if Minister Little answered Dr Nick Smith\u2019s query about the definition of an \u201Coverseas person\u201D, but, if he didn\u2019t, it\u2019s another deficiency in this bill that the Government ought to seek to clarify as soon as possible, because it appears to include someone who is in New Zealand on a work visa. Now, a person who isn\u2019t a New Zealand citizen but is here on a work visa isn\u2019t residing outside New Zealand, as is the terminology in the bill, so the question to the Government is: is it the Minister\u2019s intention to enable people who are here on work visas to donate to our political parties? That\u2019s a legitimate question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ENow, I commented in earlier debates on this bill about other inadequacies in the drafting of this bill, and, as we now come towards its conclusion, I want to focus on a couple more, because these inadequacies mean that it will almost certainly need to be amended in the future. It\u2019ll come back to a future Parliament, and they will be charged with putting it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ENow, another example is that I cited the illogical and still unexplained failure to include foreign donations to local government candidates and entities. The Minister claimed during the committee stage to answer the question, but, quite frankly, he didn\u2019t. He certainly didn\u2019t do it satisfactorily. Local body candidates and entities are just as susceptible\u2014perhaps even more so\u2014to foreign interference, and we need to have an assurance that that is another area where that particular problem won\u2019t be allowed to continue in the future. But this bill won\u2019t stop that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ELet me now turn to the issue of anonymous advertisements, because there are measures in this bill to strengthen the requirements around advertising, and they are welcome, in order to ensure consistency across advertising. As we\u2019ve said repeatedly, there are intentions behind this bill, or underpinning this bill, that we all support, and that\u2019s why National will continue to vote for it. But it isn\u2019t entirely clear that the change will capture those individuals and entities whom it\u2019s intended to capture. Clarity about that from the Government would have been appreciated during the debates, but, as I say, they remained disengaged this morning and therefore that clarity, again, wasn\u2019t forthcoming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThere are serious issues present that the Government has not considered that may well prove to be unworkable. Political parties, including National, always put authorisation statements on their advertisements online, but, if a third party puts up an advertisement with no authorisation statement and no contact details, whether it\u2019s from a foreign country or domestically, we want to know\u2014we need to know\u2014what measures will be in place for the Electoral Commission to contact them to take it down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ENow, someone can do a lot of damage in a day with misinformation and the wildfire of such misinformation going viral. That is deeply unsatisfactory. It\u2019s something that this Government ought to have wanted to stop, because we know that it might take some time for the Electoral Commission to approach Facebook, for example, to get them to take that inappropriate content down. We\u2019ve seen this problem with other big global tech companies online, including Google and various streaming platforms who don\u2019t like being told what they can and can\u2019t have on their platforms. Yet here we have these problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ESo in the last couple of minutes, let me conclude with some general observations. We all acknowledge that this issue is about genuine foreign influence, foreign powers, and foreign interests influencing New Zealand\u2019s process. That is just wrong. We all agree with that. We all agree that this needs to change. Concern about the risks of foreign interference is growing, and it\u2019s based on recent experience in overseas elections. That\u2019s why it would have been appropriate to do this job properly and to take a little bit more time. It could still have been resolved early in the new year with a proper select committee process, but, no, that\u2019s been denied. We know that New Zealand intelligence agencies have advised the committee\u2014that\u2019s a matter of public record\u2014that they have seen actions taken by foreign State actors in New Zealand. That is of concern, and I assume we all want to stop that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand, donation returns indicate that the level of foreign donations received by political parties is pretty low, and we\u2019ve had some figures quoted in this morning\u2019s debate which show that is pretty farcical that we\u2019re having to reduce it to $50 when the average one is only $66. But, anyway, we assume that the same is true for candidates. But, in another illustration of this Government\u2019s total incompetence, this bill doesn\u2019t actually do what the public is calling for. It\u2019s another example of poorly thought-out law that doesn\u2019t achieve its stated objectives. It\u2019s now part and parcel of this Government, which is just failing to deliver across a whole range of issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ESo we are left with the fact that trusts and foundations, such as the dodgy New Zealand First Foundation, which is currently at the centre of a $500,000 scandal, will still be allowed under this bill. National will continue to support this bill because of its better provisions, but we\u2019re deeply disappointed that as a consequence of poor process, unjustified urgency, and an arrogant \u201Cwe know best and don\u2019t need expert advice\u201D approach from the Government. This incompetent Government has failed again, and this matter will be back before a future Parliament to put things right that they\u2019re getting so badly wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002205ab20e312bb4c33aad90db313dc8e04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205ab20e312bb4c33aad90db313dc8e04\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call Ginny Andersen, I\u2019m going to do a general reminder that members are not to read their speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002236cf8e68828048a38cf81d5906f7cf9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236cf8e68828048a38cf81d5906f7cf9e\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you very much. Now, this is an important piece of legislation, as the select committee found out, because we heard, as members of the Justice Committee, that there have been some examples of foreign interference in New Zealand. We\u2019ve heard this from the GCSB and the SIS. And it\u2019s important we take this action urgently, to put in place legislation before the next election, in order to prevent any interference or possibility of that happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EYes, there was a more fulsome report from the select committee that would have added far more detail and would have informed the public debate. And it\u2019s very unfortunate that that was stymied to the point where it was not able to be brought to this House. And that was incredibly frustrating. The committee heard evidence and reported back, and all of those members opposite actually were in agreement of the key areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ENow, the real reason\u2014this is the last thing I\u2019ll say before I sit down\u2014that the committee did not report back was because of the Hon Dr Nick Smith; he prevented it from happening. And it came to the point where his own party tried to physically remove him from that committee because he was being so obstructive, and that is a shame\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c065fbbac13440218ef0e1f288432093\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I think if the member is referring to incidents which occurred in the non-public part of a committee which has not yet reported back, she is out of order and will cease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235c21cbeacce4853893c625a970b8411\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, Mr Speaker. To get to the point, the real reason that came out in the Hon Dr Nick Smith\u2019s speech today was that there was a general unhappiness and dissatisfaction that the party that got the largest vote\u2014this is what he said\u2014were not in Government. And he blamed New Zealand First for that. And that is the underlying real reason, and his self-interest, that shows the true colours. And there is no concern for the public interest in New Zealand to protect our democracy and to protect us from foreign interference. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022255e66fe082d45de894fcca0aa6af6cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022255e66fe082d45de894fcca0aa6af6cc\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E That was a very nasty and quite unnecessary contribution to the debate from a member who\u2019s only been here for five minutes and frankly knows nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe reality is that the Government\u2019s hiding something. That\u2019s why the bill is here. We all know that. Why would a bill that affects so little, does so little, be in the House under urgency for the place to consider it, for it not to become effective in one part until 1 January, and in another part, until 1 April? It\u2019s complete rubbish, it\u2019s a total distraction, and it is an absolute nonsense that when the issue that is being considered by so many out there in the public at the moment\u2014the issue of anonymous donations to political parties, focused at the moment very much on New Zealand First\u2014the amendment laid in the House by the Hon Dr Nick Smith was totally rejected by the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe have no problem with there being a reach into foundations, political action groups, trusts, or any other construction that people might like to put around a political party and its funding stream. But, apparently, all the Government parties do. It\u2019s interesting to note that one of the biggest recipients of foreign donations, undeclared anonymous foreign donations, is the Green Party; the very party that\u2019s railed against all sorts of electoral excesses for decades, now comes into the House and exempts themselves, effectively, through this legislation, from the scrutiny that any outside political action group might come under, should they make a donation to the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAnd then, of course, we know about the missing $840,000 from the 2017 election in the New Zealand First Party, and the Electoral Commission is looking into that at the moment. But under this legislation, there\u2019s no problem for an organisation like that. No problem at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe in our party declare all donations to the foundation that we have supporting us. We don\u2019t make any bones about that. And, yes, it is a capital structure and we do use the interest for political purposes, but it\u2019s all declared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo why is it that New Zealand First blocked today\u2014blocked today\u2014a provision that could have gone into this bill that would have made the good practice law? So it\u2019s really very interesting for us to be in a position where we support the bill, because we want transparency. But we find, interestingly, that the number of declared anonymous donations over a long period of time averaged about $66. So we\u2019re in here making a $16 difference to the level at which a current average donation is made. We know some are bigger, because that is average. Some are much smaller. But it really makes the point that if you aren\u2019t going to have a bill that looks at every aspect of funding going to political parties, then it\u2019s a bit of a nonsense to say it is an amendment bill to make the greater security around New Zealand elections to ensure that there are no outside bodies influencing the political process. No one has any idea where that $840,000 came from, except the people inside New Zealand First who received it, or the people inside their foundation who received it. What we do know is that there should be a greater reach and understanding of where those influences\u2014that can be at least made accusation about\u2014come from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also a bit, we think, odd that we\u2019re going to have a three-week period now between when the bill gets its Royal assent\u2014probably later today\u2014and when the bill comes into effect. Now, you could take out your few statutory days around Christmas and Boxing Day, perhaps the Sundays and the weekends, but it gives, effectively, 15 or 16 working days where these donations can be solicited, can be received, and do not have to be declared if they\u2019re going into the political party above the levels that are currently prescribed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting that the only party that did not declare any donations last election over the specific amount was New Zealand First, and I don\u2019t believe there were 840 people out there who gave them a thousand dollars each. That\u2019s just too hard for me to believe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ENevertheless, that will be part of the ongoing discussion. We support this bill, but it\u2019s not adequate and it does miss the point. We do know it is here as a distraction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1ceb9f9f5de4ca8b5905507bf726aab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1ceb9f9f5de4ca8b5905507bf726aab\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise with pleasure to support this bill, on behalf of New Zealand First, as we seek to eliminate foreign influence from New Zealand\u2019s democracy. It has no place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThe reason we are here, of course, taking out this lowest of the low-hanging fruit\u2014the foreign donations\u2014is because the Justice Committee, which started on this process, reviewing the 2017 election, in July 2018 and is yet to report. This has been a dysfunctional committee on a very important issue. And Minister Little has implored that committee to come back with a report so we can look at these wider influences, and they have failed to do so. So we will support him in bringing this measure\u2014as I say, the lowest of the low-hanging fruit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWe do need this wider reform. There are plenty of international examples out there where we\u2019ve got foreign actors in all sorts of jurisdictions around the world\u2014in hacking and disinformation, and, yes, in funding. We\u2019ve heard from Professor Anne-Marie Brady from Canterbury University that those influences quite possibly exist within our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ENow, we have heard also some incredibly disturbing accounts from Jami-Lee Ross articulating exactly how Todd McClay, as a Minister of the Crown, went over to China and solicited a donation from a foreign national, which then came back through a New Zealand - front company\u2014that most Kiwi of New Zealand - front companies\u2014the \u201CInner Mongolian Racing Company\u201D or some such thing, and Jami-Lee Ross was advised to tell him how to break those donations up into amounts that would not be detectable, completely flouting the intent of the laws of New Zealand. It is an absolute display of collective amnesia over there, that the only party\u2014the only party\u2014in this Parliament that\u2019s sitting before the Serious Fraud Office is the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022751b0c75e1b942d3995d275236338354\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Winston told us you guys have voluntarily gone in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f87cca8de6954adf9aba7822dd9b61d9\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: So we\u2019ve volunteered to go to the Electoral Commission, which is the appropriate place. That Serious Fraud Office is a big step up on volunteering information to the Electoral Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo there is need for wider reform. We must do this, but until that Justice Committee returns its report, we somewhat have our hands tied behind our back. New Zealand democracy is for New Zealanders. It is up to us to decide our fate. It is only us that have skin in the game here, and this bill, while it\u2019s a modest step, is a step in the right direction and New Zealand First has pleasure in supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002227e0c90ddc69438f9aa46a2825ada304\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227e0c90ddc69438f9aa46a2825ada304\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E National supports the intent of this bill to reduce the threat of foreign intervention in our democracy and foreign influence on our democratic processes, and we support the very small, the very minor, provision of lowering the level of overseas donations from $1,500 to $50. So we support this bill. But what we do take particular issue with, and have taken issue with throughout the urgent stages of this bill\u2019s passage, is the overblown way in which it has been described. This bill does not amount to a ban on foreign donations. It falls very short of that, because it does not address some of the major issues that have been raised by experts and others. All it does is lower the level of donations that can be received through formal channels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWe lament the process that this bill has been taken through. We lament it being passed through urgency, because we see that that has denied the democratic right of New Zealanders to have their say on this bill, to question whether or not it will achieve the purpose it says it has, and to examine the provisions and the detail of how they will come into effect. It has denied the consultation with the affected parties to find out what it may mean in practice, and it has been put through urgency in a way that is unnecessary and unjustifiable, because the bill\u2019s measures do not actually get implemented until 1 January next year, and, in fact, some of the provisions of this bill don\u2019t get put in place until the 1 April next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo we do lament that process, and we put that on the record because we are concerned that over the next year\u2014in fact, into the years ahead\u2014there will continue to be questions raised by the public, there will continue to be concerns raised, about the potential for foreign interference in our elections, and we do not wish it to be thought that we think this bill will address those issues. It will not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThere is a lot missing from the bill. There is still the potential\u2014and the regulatory impact statement raises this, and experts have raised it\u2014that foreign States will be able to circumvent the rules in our foreign donation regime. That is a very real concern, and the Minister in the chair himself acknowledged that concern. We are concerned that the bill still allows for anonymous donations of up to $1,500. Again, officials have acknowledged that that is a potential loophole whereby foreign actors will seek to use the anonymous donation channel to continue to influence. I note that New Zealand First has been the biggest recipient of anonymous donations, and we have invited New Zealand First again and again to address who those anonymous donations have come from and why it is that they receive so many anonymous donations, and that remains unanswered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe bill also doesn\u2019t include any provisions for this to apply to local government, and we have queried throughout this debate why that would be the case. If we are so concerned about the influence on democracy, why is it that we\u2019re only concerned about central government democracy and not what goes on at local government? That seems a missed opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EFinally, when it comes to this question of how this has been overblown and the PR about this being a huge ban, I just want to point out a fact that has been tabled in this House in the regulatory impact statement, which is about where donations currently go, because, actually, this bill is very narrow. It deals with donations of between $50 in value and $1,500 in value that come from foreign entities and foreign persons. When we look through the electoral returns for the past 10 years, it is clear that the vast bulk of donations of that size, of between $50 and $1,500, have been made to the Green Party. It is the Green Party in 2018 who received 57 overseas donations under $1,500, it is the Green Party who in 2017 filed a return with 60 overseas donations under $1,500, and it is the Green Party who in 2015 filed a return with 300 overseas donations under $1,500. This is relevant, because we have had, throughout this debate, people talking about the spectre of dark forces, of foreign influence, and the fact that this regime in itself will kerb that threat. Well, if that is the case, then the Green Party must know something that we here don\u2019t know about the influence those hundreds of donations have had on them, because if, really, all it took was this bill to address that problem, then, clearly, the donations they have been receiving are of significant concern to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does not do is go any way to address the actual concerns New Zealanders have right now about our donation regime\u2014concerns that have been raised on the front pages of New Zealand\u2019s newspapers in recent weeks. We know what this is. This bill is simply an attempt to distract and divert the New Zealand public, and I believe that New Zealanders are smarter than this Government gives them credit for. They see this for the sham that it is. Yes, it has a good intent. Yes, supporting the lowering of the level of donations is a good idea. But, please, let us be clear: this does not ban foreign donations. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u002278afc896d8fc426d863bf4f37c8db30f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278afc896d8fc426d863bf4f37c8db30f\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, Nicola Willis likes to throw bombs at other parties in the House around donations, and I\u2019ve got a question for her: why did she launder donations of between $1,500 and $15,000 through her Wellington central office? Got any answer to that, Nicola Willis? Laundering donations\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256085d936ad94efb8eed489902abd7bb\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I believe there\u2019s a provision in the Standing Orders that where an allegation like that is made, a member may take a call to refute that allegation, and I think it would be appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220da8b57682764bf5b380d5bcda297080\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A person at the end of a speech can make a personal explanation\u2014at the end of a speech. That is open to Nicola Willis if she wishes to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d0812dc0ce246908ee14872cef7a5b7\u0022\u003EHon CLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. So despite all of the howls and the fake outrage from the National Party on this bill, the ultimate point is that they are supporting this bill, and that\u2019s a good thing for our nation. But after 18 months, the Justice Committee, which has been conducting an inquiry into the general election, the local body elections, and extending it to foreign interference in our electoral system, has been unable to report to the House, back to Parliament, which it should have done. Why is that? Because it\u2019s been held up. It\u2019s been held up by the National Party. It\u2019s been held up by one particular member\u2014that member is Nick Smith. I challenge again the National Party to explain that, to refute that. That is what the people of New Zealand, anybody listening to this debate, should know. It\u2019s very deliberate. It\u2019s a very deliberate tactic. As a result, it\u2019s their own fault that we are in this House today debating this legislation under urgency, because the Minister who signalled for months that he wanted that report\u2014there\u2019s been very good work done by both sides. That report deserves to come back to Parliament. But because he couldn\u2019t wait any longer, he had to bring this bill to the House. That\u2019s why we\u2019re debating this bill today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis bill is not a fix-it for everything. There is a much bigger piece of work that needs to be done, and the people of New Zealand deserve to see the depth of the work that\u2019s been done. I want to acknowledge all of the submitters that spent hours before the committee giving their presentations on the impact of foreign donations and interference in our system. I particularly acknowledge Professor Anne-Marie Brady on that. I want to point out to the Opposition over there that currently, there\u2019s one large donation that they are responsible for that is under investigation by the Serious Fraud Office. There\u2019s another $150,000 donation channelled through Chinese donations\u2014both of them are Chinese\u2014that is under scrutiny and should be under further scrutiny. These are serious matters\u2014very serious, in our system, that these things can be happening. We have to pay attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIt is currently illegal for there to be\u2014and I\u2019ll quickly read the provision. Section 207L in the Electoral Act makes it an illegal practice to enter into \u201Can agreement, arrangement, or understanding with any other person that has the effect of circumventing\u201D restrictions on overseas donations or contributions over $1,500. It is \u201Ca corrupt practice if the circumvention is wilful;\u201D. These things need more scrutiny. This bill does not fix all of it, but it lowers that threshold to $50. That is not minor; it is significant. The scrutiny and the duty of care on the party secretaries is absolutely critical, and it will make a significant change. This is an important bill. It\u2019s one step in much-needed electoral reform. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002232b7496187e349158d3c35e77c5791a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232b7496187e349158d3c35e77c5791a9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Was the member going to make a point of order\u2014no? Mr Brownlee? I was just checking were we going to have a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d27ff11215134701a26e2b5938a6cb32\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. The moment\u2019s passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ebe3dcd3c2be47038c6c603a075f5879\u0022\u003EFarm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba16d02de66e4b2993fbd97f347c4e9b\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00221943ca9d7c9441d798f902ef012de18c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221943ca9d7c9441d798f902ef012de18c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI introduced this bill to the House on 27 June, and I\u2019m proud to be here for its final passage today. This bill shows the Government\u2019s commitment to the wellbeing of our farmers and their families. I hope that the Opposition doesn\u2019t, as they\u2019ve done before, stand up and talk about all the negatives that have been occurring, they say, because of this Government, and once again spread a negative perception of the farmers around this country. They are great people doing great work, and they need to be supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe bill shows our understanding of the reality and the financial stresses that face farmers after years of debt growing to now be at $63 billion. That is a huge debt, much of which grew under the National Government, under a philosophy which was to double exports. The increase in the volume that they tried to generate created pressure at every level of the farming system\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274f85f3e4e90451ea1a97fb264648149\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Did they achieve it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253afe220b3ad449faf68955fffff9cfe\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014no, they didn\u2019t achieve it\u2014from debt at the top, all the way down through environmental pressures, pressures on families, on individuals working on the farms. The Government is now taking action in a number of areas, after nine years of neglect by the so-called \u201CFarmers\u2019 Party\u201D, to provide, firstly, a safety net through this legislation to help farmers, ultimately, get more value for what they do and, if they come under pressure financially, to have a dignified way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAlthough farmers are getting record prices at the moment, they have these high levels of debt and are under perceived pressure. They do feel\u2014too many of them, anyway\u2014that there\u2019s not a clear way forward, and the banks, in their latest moves to squeeze more money from the farms, are contributing to that. Federated Farmers had a survey that they released last week saying that there were less people satisfied with their banks\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc562b014847439ba10cd2db58084f80\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Fewer!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2a227a4491b4f6aa5d1513568b34890\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Fewer!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9c99a4561174319b1eea0de99e26c5c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014fewer, sorry\u2014in a sector that has relied, traditionally, on a good partnership between banks and farmers, where a healthy provision of capital, repayment, and management of it has been the norm. This is no longer necessarily the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis bill shows that the Government is committed to find solutions and support for farmers. The sector groups and all the lenders support the bill, and there was a view at the start that perhaps the banks would push back against it. What we have seen in reality, through Australia and now here, is the banking sector seeing the value in a cooperative approach, a collaborative approach to work through this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank the officials who have contributed to the bill\u2019s development. I\u2019d like to thank all the submitters who came in, and the select committee, who did, I think, a good job and worked through this, and the coalition colleagues. Can I acknowledge New Zealand First for, I guess, seizing the moment and tabling a bill that they\u2019d had floating around for quite a number of years, and that provided an opportunity for the Government to pick up that bill, to make some adjustments, and now we have, as a coalition, run this forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to pay special tribute to two people. They\u2019re not the only two people who\u2019ve been involved, but in the early 1990s I was involved with Gray Eatwell, who had, I guess, confronted the might and power of the banking sector, and then, later, a person\u2014Janette Walker\u2014who had done a huge amount to help people who were in a similar situation, she being, I guess, the victim of what can be, at times, a superior and an abusive, or dominant, position by banks, who, ultimately, carry the day through their mortgage arrangements and can almost do what they like. Those two people had seen firsthand the stresses. They were staunch advocates and had contacted myself and a number of other politicians through the years to try and get something like this in place, and I have to acknowledge their efforts have now come to fruition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe have done a lot for farmers and working in collaboration with them. I have to say we\u2019ve gotten a recent agreement on agricultural emissions, which we hope will offer certainty, reduce stress, and allow a pathway forward for farmers. We\u2019ve just released a skills work plan developed with the sector to try and release the pressure on trying to obtain skilled farm workers. We\u2019ve, of course, embraced a joint programme for Mycoplasma bovis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d726705f3b8f4455a66787820f5f3e06\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m waving the bill at the member and asking him to return to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220579e58991984496879d86063d640fa6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The reason I raise these things is because the bill attempts to address a key area of pressure across the farming sector, one of finance. I\u2019ve acknowledged that it\u2019s not the only one, and I guess, if the other things that the Government have done to release the pressure can be acknowledged, then with this bill in place we, hopefully, will have farmers far more positive about what should be a spectacular future. The world needs more food. It needs more quality food and protein, and, in fact, we can deliver that for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2) guarantees a number of things\u2014firstly, a fair, constructive, and timely process for farmers to work through their debt problems with their lenders. The reality of an imbalance of power has meant that farmers have, at times, often felt powerless to negotiate with dignity, maybe, a better solution to what is, they will accept, often an unsustainable financial situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe second thing the scheme provides is for an impartial negotiation process that allows the mediator, as a neutral and independent person, to help both the farmer and the creditor to work through the debt issues in an effort to reach an agreement. Both have a lot at play, both have a lot at stake, and the mediator, who will be impartial, who will be appointed and overseen by the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2014we believe that that impartial process will deliver a fair outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe third thing is that the proposed scheme would make it compulsory for secured creditors to offer mediation to eligible farming and primary production businesses when they default on payments. So this is a voluntary and proactive way that, firstly, the creditors can offer the mediation and then farmers, of course, can also request independent mediation at any stage. So rather than, as we often do, or people tend to do, try to ignore the situation and hope it will go away, thereby prolonging the agony and often complicating the financial situation, there will be an ability for farmers, probably with a bit of advice, to seek mediation early on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis Government does understand the importance of the farming sector\u2014the rural sector\u2014of their families and the rural communities. They are still at the core of our wealth creation in this country. The Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2) will bring some balance to what is a core part of ongoing farming operations. I hope that the Opposition, as they have expressed, will support the bill. I know that there\u2019s been a healthy, robust debate in the Primary Production Committee. A few things have been adjusted and, I think, improved. We want to see a healthy rural environment. We want to see debt paid down. The banks want to see that. We have high commodity prices and an opportunity to do that, but ad hoc interventions by creditors or banks will lead to unfair pressure and, perhaps, foreclosures where they are not necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis Farm Debt Mediation Bill (No 2), in its passage finally through the House, will be a huge step forward to create a balanced situation for finance into and out of the farming sectors, something that has been requested by individuals, needed by the whole sector, and now acknowledged by this coalition Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to commend the bill to the House and hope that its implementation will be seen in the spirit that it was intended\u2014that is, a collaborative, cooperative outcome to work and assist farmers through what might be some difficult financial situations. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdc1da6d2a5349c8a2bd1a2fc56b2e1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdc1da6d2a5349c8a2bd1a2fc56b2e1d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was going to have a very conciliatory speech, but after the temptations put by that past member, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, it may change. I just want to raise one point with that member, because often members do leave after they\u2019ve done their introductory speech, and that is that we have had an email, a genuine email, from an accounting firm around this bill. They were at a recent Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand rural advisory committee meeting with the Inland Revenue Department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister\u2019s smiling, so he might be aware of this issue. It\u2019s just an issue that hasn\u2019t been raised with us during the committee stage or any other part of the process, but we just got it on our desk yesterday. There is a tax issue that they have foreseen that they raised with the IRD at that meeting. So if the Minister would indulge the Parliament and possibly look into that issue, that would be most appreciated, because in the Primary Production Committee, all members of the committee worked their best to try and work through any issues that were raised that were genuine. This wasn\u2019t raised\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002297578f2a7fb84fad88bc2f4d439c9ff6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297578f2a7fb84fad88bc2f4d439c9ff6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume his seat. The Government has indicated to me that it\u2019s their intention to end urgency. The member\u2019s speech and the debate are adjourned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201912032e20f113de7d4bb1b052b3e4ec8aa1fa000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.50 p.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"