"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022929ae08d4caa450abef7d36c590575ab\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 11 DECEMBER 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221de5a34a65794ad1b10c8ee6baf65735\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 11 DECEMBER 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224374a827b2cd412883e4f7ac1860f71a\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220294fdcc49d24e1ba29ccd24869dc1a5\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e49bee73b1f14a00983d54d6689a3437\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba1c137ba0ce4e48b98534755436688d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba1c137ba0ce4e48b98534755436688d\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022097b0d32d26e4607a4211ebfed033ee7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022097b0d32d26e4607a4211ebfed033ee7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly the Government\u2019s decision to deliver record investment in infrastructure. Today\u2019s package includes $6.8 billion of new transport projects, with a significant portion for roads and rail; $400 million of upgrades and maintenance for schools; $300 million of regional investment opportunities; $300 million of investment in our hospitals and health infrastructure; and $200 million of projects to reduce emissions. With New Zealand\u2019s low debt and borrowing costs, this is the right time to invest to futureproof New Zealand, after nine years of neglected infrastructure under the National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222540ec5f2bba4c1183f27607590e090b\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: How has she let the economy move into deficit in just two years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d01f915e3504404db48be4d1f8cefaf4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I would point out that the last Government was more often in deficit than it was not. I\u2019d also like to point out, of course, that a substantial amount of the short-term temporary deficit that we will experience and then move swiftly out of does relate to forecasts around ACC. Of course, as the member will know, they are feeling the effects of the global downturn, as most economies are experiencing at present. I\u2019d also point out that we\u2019ve already had $13 billion worth of forecast surplus, and we are forecast to run another $12 billion worth of surpluses, which is noteworthy indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df78a627f178419e8b5dd2b6ffb0c500\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to say to the House that I received some very favourable comments yesterday about the tone of the House and the fact that people were\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257d0f56c5b14480e8374b623fe0351f4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022076ca563dd864ecc93183abc62dbb6c6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Who interjected then? Who made that comment? Who made the comment? Someone on my left made a loud comment then. Who was it? That will have a universal punishment as a result. I\u2019m going to ask the Prime Minister to continue. I\u2019m going to reiterate the comment that I was making. I got positive feedback yesterday from the fact that people could hear answers and people were not shouted down. Can I encourage people to continue that\u2014and right from the first question, there\u2019s been an attempt to shout down the Minister giving a reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a51da00677c24077b56b8c2183daa5da\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Perhaps the public reaction that you\u2019ve been made aware of to yesterday\u2019s question time session was largely due to the sombre nature of the day, but also the fact that, in recognising the sombre nature, there were very clear and specific answers from Ministers and there was a notable absence of the sort of political flick that we just saw from the Prime Minister. When those occur, as you\u2019ve observed yourself, then naturally there will be some kind of reaction, and that is not unreasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227159533b6fb74e90be3c3b895eafdcf1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I totally agree with the member, but the reaction should not be unreasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaf3d46e82214bfe96d2123834ac80c3\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that, on becoming Prime Minister, Treasury forecast surpluses as far as they make projections, to 2032?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250933945512146bd8b819d80122fea8a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the member will be well aware that, in the intervening period, we have entered into a process where the International Monetary Fund, OECD\u2014we are seeing a downgrading of forecasts across the board, almost. Global growth is declining, and that is a result, obviously, of trade wars and other significant events that have led us to have the same experience as many other economies that we would compare ourselves to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242dc3316cea84f5f86ce5014b3684ee2\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t the reality that prices in terms of meat, horticulture, and dairy have simply never been better, and the only thing that\u2019s changed is her Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebb16cc822604185855bdfc20253cba4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af81d5158e9a4099b09716f70f04723c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Why do Treasury forecasts today show 14 of the next 15 years to be in cash deficit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc1100ecb86440c086b96c666deffb86\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: First, I\u2019d point out the different measures that the member is using there. The second point that I would make is that, actually, on every measure that is commonly used\u2014GDP growth: we\u2019re sitting, on average, at rates of 2.5; under the last Government, it was more like 2.1. Employment: 4.2 percent; under the last Government, we inherited it at 4.7. Wage growth: on average, 3.5 percent; in the last Government\u2019s first term, 2.1. Debt: at our highest point in the forecast, we\u2019re looking at 21.5 percent relative to GDP; we inherited it at 22.9. So the point I would make to the member is that if, on the forecasts he\u2019s seen, and on the reality that we have presented as a Government, he considers that inadequate, I would ask him to reflect on his own Government\u2019s last record, because relative to them we are doing very, very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e699a11728dc4e1a953ef03872179fa6\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Will she confirm that her Government is breaching its pledge on Budget responsibility rules by borrowing more?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af7bc798bf1c416b97d27df9555e6058\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Two points. No. Of course, we met the debt to GDP ratio that we set ourselves in our first two Budgets. The member well knows we then took the advice of Treasury, and the advice and belief of many others, that we should move to a range. That is what we\u2019ve adopted. Not only are we within that range with the forecasts the member\u2019s seen today; we\u2019re well within it. Again, I would point out that, at its highest point, we\u2019re looking at a debt to GDP ratio of 21.5. When we inherited the economy from the last Government, it was at 22.9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e09cde910b6d4d1abb52a19ec3832268\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Budget responsibility pledge only for the first two Budgets of this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4533e15636b4bffb4bf8c7c3c2176a7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the member well knows it was across a forecast period. Not only, as I\u2019ve said, did we meet that for those first two Budgets; we moved to a range which, of course, has been well publicised, well documented, and well endorsed by commentators.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f0ce00c65d64c019bb0e1f2bcddc3a3\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it the case that no significant transport infrastructural projects will be started by this Government before the next election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022480bda87d7ed4465abc6ce4221f9f24c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228803cc68a8b54716ab3dc75f4cabd6ea\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What projects will be started in transport before the next election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d92e97cedef4a899e28cfc320716454\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve previously discussed in this House, in July 2018, funding was approved for the Awakino Tunnel bypass. Construction starts July\u2014[Interruption] Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bb8e8378a9144139a5abb58838de6f3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4bc8468edf84a43bb35071525fe5e88\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Construction starts in July 2019. We\u2019ve funded Loop Road; construction starts in February 2019. \u014Cp\u014Dnoni\u2014again, I point out funding and beginning: funding approved May 2018, construction starts March 2019. State Highway 1, Waipapa, State Highway 10, Ladies Mile Corridor, Edendale\u2014I could go on, but the point stands that we\u2019ve not only approved funding but started construction on a number of projects. As the member also knows, under the last Government, their transport spending was $3.7 billion. Under us, it\u2019s $4.5 billion, and we\u2019ve just added another $6.8 billion. Again, our investment has been significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6238841bab2403bb225cd8df818e686\u0022\u003EClayton Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was wondering if the Prime Minister could table this document. It might help out the Leader of the Opposition for further questions moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d5f6211f15941979c6f3e9a34c666c4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m going to ask, first of all, is it an official document that the Prime Minister is quoting from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f3d67aafdaf4b7b8ffa978d1f7c65c9\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that this is information that\u2019s available freely from the New Zealand Transport Agency, and I have shared in the House before. The member just continues to ask the question. I\u2019m happy to keep providing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022414ce88c50be4b1ab748fd675e0e3165\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a matter for the Minister to table it if she wants to. It\u2019s not an official document. If the Minister wants to table it, she can. There is no requirement to table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298a776ac8b2440c4a1fd3ba200e3e003\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019d just confirm that it\u2019s publicly available, so I\u2019ll stick with convention. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5c374c63ddc452ba79c0ff5fed572b4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Members, especially experienced members and those who have been in these buildings for a period of time, know that it is often the habit of Ministers to do notes on top of briefing notes that they have, and those are never tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a35c01ee4cd444618806006227fa0291\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Is the reason why no specific infrastructure projects have been announced today is because the Government has no plan and doesn\u2019t know how to deliver?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c3f49eb0e0d48d191bcdc7644a56f4f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f74669a7fac496ebb0102c738e6cdcd\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Are we wasting a term as the economy runs down and no significant infrastructure starts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7068e772404360ab4fed86f9c036e6\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222134cea9de6f41fdb7ac09c5dac9edca\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Could I point out the ambiguity of that last question. It would more appropriately apply to the person asking the question than against the Government, when the Prime Minister has already laid out, and so has the Minister of Finance today, categorically the level of expenditure that\u2019s going in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a99026d4b274e51aea14643ebc99f22\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. While I, and I\u2019m sure most members of the House, would always like questions to logically flow from answers that have been there beforehand, we\u2019ve never managed to achieve that standard in the House, and I\u2019m certainly not going to try and enforce it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022215d9669d59045329190e4b37007e48b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question number two, Dr Deborah Russell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022520d8fcc9dae4d7fb01f73e147933179\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226826f7a2a0054946b557ed4bd04088ee\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. Supplementary question, the Hon Gerry Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0d52346dd1f4aebb66e2964b7d1725a\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not a supplementary question. I said a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff6dfe5f6d814d20a75efb7818a8eee2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order, the Hon Gerry Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204c7ef21cdd041a68c09c894c1c7d4da\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Your response to the Rt Hon Winston Peters was appropriate, but it didn\u2019t deal with the fact that he was suggesting that the Opposition should actually swallow hook, line, and sinker everything the Prime Minister says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd2c98a87c9f42b690c525c9e45d5f61\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, the Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2019 point of order was marginal. The Hon Gerry Brownlee\u2019s wasn\u2019t even close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4923588e00f46cab1123ebf5a45c023\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4a66ea32ffe48bfaba13ac2bf9c5b17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4a66ea32ffe48bfaba13ac2bf9c5b17\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent announcements has he made about Government investment to boost the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022736552cfec8c4db2bd7b9474cbf36e4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022736552cfec8c4db2bd7b9474cbf36e4b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Today, I announced that the Government is lifting capital investment by $12 billion to the highest level in more than 20 years in order to futureproof the New Zealand economy. Of this increase, we have allocated $8 billion for specific capital projects and we have increased the multi-year capital allowance for future Budgets by $4 billion. This Government inherited a huge infrastructure challenge when we took office including rundown hospitals, roads that were announced but not paid for, overcrowded classrooms, and a State housing shortage. This package shows New Zealanders that this Government is serious about investing in our economy and our prosperity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022381efe60f3e94a6f826cf349963a84ee\u0022\u003EDr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: What sectors will the additional capital be invested in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022951af60e4ced46178466497594de3a20\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s $8 billion immediate capital investment package includes $6.8 billion for new transport projects, with a significant portion going to roads and rail; $300 million for district health board asset renewal; $200 million for public estate decarbonisation such as removing coal boilers from schools, hospitals, and other public assets; up to $300 million for regional investment opportunities that do not fit within the criteria of the Provincial Growth Fund; and the previously announced $400 million one-off increase to schools\u2019 capital funding. We believe that the time is right for this further capital investment in New Zealand. The cost of borrowing is low, the projects are there to be done, and the books are in good shape, and this will boost the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1d9c27ef0cd437ea769298270c9eab6\u0022\u003EDr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: How will this package help boost the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c29584b444f4ea093d135942315800b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand economy is still forecast to grow solidly and grow at a rate faster than many of our trading partners, but this increased investment will provide a further boost for the New Zealand economy in the face of slower than forecast growth and stronger global headwinds. These new investments will increase the size of the economy and will have further positive impacts on GDP beyond the forecast period. The capital investment will provide a combination of shorter-term spending to support economic activity as well as the certainty of medium- and long-term investments that will provide business with a pipeline of Government demand going into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1e7a404624742bca70508c4d7ca2c44\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022baf1c09d9ac84f4b855484f391b15d15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022baf1c09d9ac84f4b855484f391b15d15\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5d9d6887df94438893ca2b5ecdf2827\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5d9d6887df94438893ca2b5ecdf2827\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226133b4c6af1d44a9a7d49e42622e1997\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Why have median rents gone up $55 since she\u2019s been Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217806ae741574bb0b297fe71333c0efa\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As was discussed in the House yesterday, there is some dispute over the figures that the member tends to continue to use. He doesn\u2019t, for instance, take into account the outliers in some of those numbers and use what is commonly used as a geometric mean. On those figures, my understanding is that some of those increases are more like $16.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022641968a11a394cd79862f8f360cdb489\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What effect does she think the significant increases in rent are having on poverty in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288435768000f4747bea7e87c626282db\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, this is a Government absolutely committed to making sure that rather than things like tax cuts, which do not have a measurable impact on benefiting those in the same way that we can with targeted tax credits, the same impact on low and middle income earners\u2014that\u2019s, of course, why as a Government we prioritise the Families Package over tax cuts. On the housing market, and on rents in particular, the biggest difference we can make is to supply. We have invested heavily in increasing the amount of State housing stock; several thousand houses are currently under construction, over 3,000 places created under this Government\u2014we\u2019re building more than any other Government since the 1970s. Those are things that do have a measurable impact. We acknowledge we, of course, do want to see those rents much more stable than they have been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4a33ebee754418689c820d6d24ba740\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: When will we see the 18c to 32c decreases in petrol prices that Kris Faafoi spoke of last week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2a668040c3342d1b76574830f66401c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, this is something I traversed yesterday. The Minister, responding to the Commerce Commission, has acknowledged\u2014as I would hope the Opposition would\u2014that the Commerce Commission has done a piece of work that shows that consumers are paying more than they should be, and that there are things that we as a Government can do to rectify what\u2019s going on in the market. So whilst I\u2019m not going to predict the final impact of that for consumers, it\u2019s far better than doing nothing, and I don\u2019t suppose that the member would support us leaving it as the status quo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220741ac81dc0f44a691e2e8e06f3952e6\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Will we see any meaningful changes and decreases in petrol prices given changes her Government may make before the election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223010fa4e7914400caca2b507f32144ca\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As the member well knows, we have already heard from the Commerce Commission that they believe a difference will be made by a more transparent wholesale pricing regime through greater contractual freedoms\u2014and there are terms to facilitate wholesale competition\u2014they believe even that transparency around pricing of premium products will make a difference, and in introducing an enforceable industry code of conduct. So those are all things that we as a Government are pursuing, and we intend to expedite that. I look forward to the member\u2019s support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2733aca935049b29e7288c03ba6c08c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: How can we trust her Government when petrol prices have gone from $1.91 to $2.13 a litre on her watch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f705adf77541209fe0d0ae50c9ebb1\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Because we have brought in the Commerce Commission to analyse what\u2019s gone on in the market; they have pointed to the fact that we have seen changes over the last decade that are inexplicable to the pricing. So that\u2019s why not only can they focus on the fact that we\u2019ve done something about that via the Commerce Commission, we then intend to implement the recommendations they\u2019ve made. I do note that the last Government chose not to do that, and we didn\u2019t, therefore, see the impacts that I hope these changes will make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270035adf54a943cbbb7e85d427ba9d7f\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: So will we see price decreases before the election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef54feab5a7240d3b5a953580ddc4a3d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: What we\u2019ll see is a response and an implementation of the Commerce Commission\u2019s recommendation, which, again, is more\u2014is more\u2014than what we saw under the last Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7c723b7c09849cca94beef63a3dcb6d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00225ca800d3a94844a385b5cdcbb0f0e402\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ca800d3a94844a385b5cdcbb0f0e402\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What reports has he seen on the Government\u2019s investment for 2,050 State schools so that they can upgrade their property over the next 24 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00229450a65fa2dc4c1fa63f96e212018a17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229450a65fa2dc4c1fa63f96e212018a17\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Over the next two years, the Government will be injecting an additional $400 million capital investment into school properties. Makikihi School has said that the extra $50,000 that they are getting will mean that they can revamp their two multi-level classrooms quicker and fix their roofs that weren\u2019t covered by their original budget. Waimataitai School have said that the $339,000 of funding that they got meant that they were relieved they\u2019d be able to complete a job properly, rather than patching things up. The New Zealand School Trustees Association have said that the Government announcement is a good way for school boards of trustees to end the school year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7d73297e8054aeeb9cd382cfc4e85b6\u0022\u003EMark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: What does the school property funding recently announced by the Prime Minister mean for schools in Clutha-Southland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223821d8f0849d4c86b238b305f36f4e86\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There are 58 schools in Clutha-Southland who\u2019ll be receiving a total of over $6 million to upgrade their classrooms and other property, including Gore High School, who\u2019ll be getting $334,000; Rosebank School in Balclutha, they\u2019ll be getting $178,000; West Gore School, who\u2019ll be getting $159,000; and Milton School, who\u2019ll be receiving $108,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293b22296dfa44a1982f9cf17a41e8d07\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What does the school property funding announced on Sunday by the Prime Minister mean for schools in the Bay of Plenty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247e8873c3448414a8d1c55eb1cbd8557\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There are 21 schools in the Bay of Plenty. They\u2019ll receive a total of around $5 million to upgrade their school property and bring forward their upgrade works. That includes schools like Te Puna School, who\u2019ll be getting $158,000; Tahatai Coast School will be receiving $400,000; Arataki School will be getting $341,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf43fcfbfe834d5399ddb7708eba7e9c\u0022\u003EHon Aupito William Sio\u003C/span\u003E: What does the school property funding announced on Sunday by the Prime Minister mean for schools in M\u0101ngere?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022829a7959a37647a29ac15c85f563c7ae\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There are 21 schools in M\u0101ngere who\u2019ll be receiving over $6 million to upgrade their classrooms and their property, including Papatoetoe North School, who will be getting $400,000; Nga Iwi School, who\u2019ll be getting $261,000; and M\u0101ngere East School, who will receive $400,000. Schools up and down the country will benefit over the next two years from the significant investment in additional funding in their facilities, as will businesses up and down the country who will be engaged to do that work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a8a87692d99e42a6a342a568eda51e11\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002246d4ca65d99747c39d48963ac5fc4e34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246d4ca65d99747c39d48963ac5fc4e34\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all of his policies and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00220feea37a59da4693afd956e8af1063a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220feea37a59da4693afd956e8af1063a9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were undertaken. In particular, I stand by my action today to announce $12 billion of additional capital spending to tackle the infrastructure challenge we were left with and boost the New Zealand economy in the face of global economic headwinds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee56d2d995e74338821487bcd0233603\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How is it possible that he could take an economy growing strongly and surpluses as far as the eye can see and turn that into a slowly growing economy and deficit in just two years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274d3265509684e5593234d7c8d62665c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As already traversed in the questions to the Prime Minister, we have seen a significant downgrading of global growth right across the board. That has a flow-on effect to the New Zealand economy. What we do know is that the New Zealand economy continues to outperform many of our trading partners, including Australia, Canada, Japan, the UK, and the euro area. We are not unaffected by global slowdown, but we are managing the books carefully and well and making the investments New Zealanders need us to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de8e5fa33f4c46e1a6dd24d53705e822\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealanders have any faith that this won\u2019t be the first of many deficits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5316c59df5c458dbf5e0f0d48b58451\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The reason they can have faith in that is because of what was released today by the Treasury, which shows that we go back into surplus and we have $12 billion worth of surpluses in the forecast period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279c599f0abe94e99a3d74383712d930f\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he now regret his Government cancelling or postponing several major transport infrastructure projects that were consented and ready to go in the first two years of his Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c15ae15aa4f94e2ebaaae93bd1f0da39\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, because the premise of that question is incorrect. In the first two years, what we had to do was fix up mouldy and leaky hospitals, rebuild school classrooms and approve new school classrooms, and begin a new transport programme. What we have announced today is a big and significant boost to a number of areas of capital spending, including over $6.8 billion for transport-related projects. The difference between what we\u2019ve announced today and what the member is referring to is that we\u2019ve actually funded it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022261831bd28fd4e7ca0427a87e1988e3f\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Did his Government feel the need to make its promise over debt levels because New Zealanders don\u2019t trust Labour Governments to live within their means?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292a3a7515eb949e481363a641407e9a0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019m going to ask the member to rephrase it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc98795031c04c29bb4d5873e6915f9c\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Well, did his Government, in the Speech from the Throne, feel the need to make its promise over debt levels because it worried that New Zealanders do not trust Labour Governments to live within their means?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ad3476e254f4ae7a9539f6fbfb88111\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Closer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226a376456c584b88adde1b0551090797\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No. What we did was we inherited a net debt level of 22.9 percent. We took that down to under 20 percent. And, in the forecast released today, it will peak at 21.5 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203421b50dfaf46908589fd5fdabd7faa\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister of Finance that if dedicating expenditure to projects amounts to what Mr Goldsmith said in the House today\u2014that announcing is not delivering\u2014does it nevertheless sure beat announcing without any dedication of funds whatsoever?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfcdb6bd4d8744c7bdcdde6a93d8e28d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it most certainly does, because the problem for the Government was that we inherited a series of promises around transport. Many of those were not funded. The announcement we have made today, on top of the $17.7 billion already being spent in the National Land Transport Fund, represents, as I have said, the biggest capital spending we\u2019ve seen in 20 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237904a31bec84acf92e40d256f1bac90\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Will he promise that the projects funded by his new borrowing will be more successful than KiwiBuild?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226981e61bca1d4c58987c1427a3075b28\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The projects that we have committed ourselves to today will play a very important role in lifting the productivity of New Zealand, of giving certainty, and they will deliver. And\u2014I will repeat my earlier answer\u2014this is actual funding for actual projects rather than the ghost roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b5cd2115a2340798f8a58cac3bda8b2\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister give effect to his statement that our planet cannot continue to sustain growth that is built on burning more and more fossil fuels through directing ACC to divest nearly one billion dollars in fossil fuel investment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223982031f94db4381910d2c0443f74364\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As we traversed earlier in the House last week, I understand that this is an important issue for many New Zealanders. We have seen the Super Fund take the lead in this regard, and I have written to all of the Crown financial institutions asking them to ensure that they continue to support the overall goals of the Government as we move towards, for example, a low carbon economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002233134e75428a41459841341c3e64b119\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Economic Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002262112dbb212644298d3ba5ade3b7f810\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262112dbb212644298d3ba5ade3b7f810\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s policies and actions on economic development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022602ab429382b4b75bd7998e703012c92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022602ab429382b4b75bd7998e703012c92\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, especially our Government\u2019s commitment to invest in the infrastructure our economy needs, including the Minister of Finance\u2019s announcement today that the Government will invest $12 billion more in essential infrastructure, the highest in more than 20 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d0444d067854f27805f21d37d8102ce\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say about the Government\u2019s record on economic development that today\u2019s figures show economic growth has been slashed, tax revenues are down, and debt is on the rise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7f485fc13f04259925d812bbf732e4b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we know that there are heightened global headwinds that are feeding through to uncertainty, like the US-China trade war, like Brexit and geopolitical tensions. There\u2019s no question that these have had an effect on us and all of our trading partners, but the forecasts show that the economy is predicted to grow, on average, at 2.5 percent over the forecast period. That\u2019s faster than Australia, the UK, the US, Canada, Japan, and the eurozone. Unemployment is forecast to stay low, business investment is forecast to increase as a result of the Government\u2019s announcement today on infrastructure investment, and GDP growth is forecast at 2.8 percent next year. In the pre-election economic and fiscal update before we took office, it was only forecast to be 2.2 percent in that year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbbeeeab2309468fb03f076e6ac22680\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What responsibility does he take for the domestic uncertainty weighing on those responsible for driving economic growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022865a76c4efd84dbfb4f2cf2d9a610d22\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: None at all. We have a bigger pipeline of capital investment and infrastructure than that Government did. We are currently spending in transport. We are spending $4.5 billion this year. The former Government only spent $3.8 billion on transport. We are the Government of infrastructure, not the Government of rhetoric that that party was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7eb3029f2114a69924c0b2dd2f418df\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Well, just in relation to that last comment, can he name a single major project that has started in the last two years that will drive economic development through infrastructure spending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fd3dac7f10b485da287f17963b5813a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the replacement of the Manawat\u016B Gorge State highway. It\u2019s a major State highway project. The former Government didn\u2019t do it and we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022614cf1e0418c45ef82e66885bb00274d\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister familiar with this graph on net capital spending, which shows that, in the years from 2009 through to 2017, capital spending stayed extremely low, and shows the forecast for an extremely large increase in capital spending in the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227517509a14494287960df82ff79ff2a2\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen that graph and the data it\u2019s based on, and I think it shows that some people talk about infrastructure; other people do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243599f3d018d47028a0c6543c56bd69e\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Just in relation to that last comment, does he stand by that comment in light of repeated commitments to start a light rail project for which nothing has happened in the last two years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c033316f52f47d78facdadfa818c9f1\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the premise of the member\u2019s question, and I remind the member that some of the former National Government\u2019s so-called roads of national significance took seven years from announcement until they were built. That Government postponed the City Rail Link in Auckland by five years. They said they wouldn\u2019t build light rail in Auckland for another 30 years. We\u2019re getting on and doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3dfad91033a448d8b3ef71647993f23\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that a significant amount of things like planning and consenting for some of those roads of national significance\u2014like Transmission Gully, for example\u2014happened under the last Labour Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254a42d327ac24a53b1aacd73860a4aa3\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct, and the former Government, on the question of delivery of roads, distinguished themselves on a record of promising ghost roads and bridges that they never ever built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002298c4e411532844d58579a5fe28502985\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Civil Defence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3b3768927bc4c81812f1250ffcfb72d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3b3768927bc4c81812f1250ffcfb72d\u0022\u003ETAMATI COFFEY (Labour\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Civil Defence: What actions have the National Emergency Management Agency taken in response to the eruption on Whakaari / White Island?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00222a8603a7ccc747f7af1d0b1e617f12b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a8603a7ccc747f7af1d0b1e617f12b0\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Civil Defence):\u003C/span\u003E As per the response delivered on my behalf yesterday by the Hon Grant Robertson, the National Emergency Management Agency (NEMA) is still coordinating the all-of-Government response to the eruption and ensuring that the focus is on keeping people at the centre of the response. To ensure public safety and wellbeing, the National Emergency Management Agency has created a national action plan to coordinate support at the national level for the delivery of essential services to affected families. The plan coordinates the specific actions required by each agency going forward, which will also continue throughout recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022964d973793a14c0e9453dfe56fcaa7da\u0022\u003ETamati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: Where can people affected by the emergency seek financial support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221597f5e341564e428500c1f7f2a4288d\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Extra support is available to people affected by the White Island eruption. Work and Income can help with financial support to those impacted, including for loss of income and housing assistance. ACC can provide support to those who were injured or have lost a family member as well as payment for medical care. For further details, I encourage the public to go to the Government\u2019s factsheet, which can be found on NEMA\u2019s website: civildefence.govt.nz\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022676a4fe038d848b383b8ea5d1679a253\u0022\u003ETamati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: Where can people seek support\u2014mental health support\u2014if they are feeling distressed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d228f9da03734c12a7cfef8492859dcd\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The events from the other day have had a significant impact on the community. It is normal to feel upset following an event like this. If people need support or advice, they can text or phone 1737 to speak to a trained counsellor. Several organisations are also providing emotional and mental wellbeing services to those impacted by this event, including Red Cross, Victim Support, and the cruise-line company for Ovation of the Seas, Royal Caribbean International.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d0a397f30ae4da5b7db3d284d22302d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00223fc78dbbeb1a455595b173a53cc270f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fc78dbbeb1a455595b173a53cc270f6\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What was the number of elective patients funded by DHBs and discharged from surgical specialties in 2018/19, and how does that compare to 2017/18?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e59d7020718640fd80f608e422ffd7c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e59d7020718640fd80f608e422ffd7c1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Our public health service is delivering more care to more people than ever before. We\u2019re seeing more acute surgeries and more non-admitted procedures delivered by DHBs, and, for the first time ever, the number of discharges from our hospitals has topped one million. Elective surgery discharges are part of a wider measure\u2014planned care. There were 268,747 planned care procedures completed in 2018-19, including 199,080 elective surgeries. The total number of planned care procedures is 5,000 more than the year before. In 2017/18, there were 203,458 elective surgeries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e8cac99adc8411ea9ee083a465d4522\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Is the target of an increase in the volume of elective surgeries by an average of 4,000 discharges per year, as described on the Ministry of Health website, still in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223addb9e91d1d49d9a82883e70277bab5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is focused on planned care, which is about making sure more New Zealanders have access to more services. There are a wide range of measures\u2014dozens\u2014across the system which continue to be measured, because we want to ensure that there\u2019s a system-wide response and that our healthcare services are delivering more care over time to more people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cff0deb188094952b845a606666ba200\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was straightforward but wasn\u2019t addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f129c5db97e94ad4bcd81e1ea0d7f5a5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member does know, though\u2014I think the question was addressed, but the member does know he cannot insist on a yes or no answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a16b1a1d77e469cb6cc840de277f670\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: No. Quite right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e664aff89fac444e94cf7b4ed2345f9c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think it was addressed but you didn\u2019t get a yes/no answer\u2014Speaker\u2019s Ruling 171/4 or 171/5, somewhere around there from memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3e98e2574034b85acbb858d5ca1e334\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: If the 4,000 increase target is no longer in place, why did the Government invest $31.5 million in Vote Health 2018-19 to \u201Csupport the delivery of the Electives \u2026 Target. The output is the agreed Health Target discharges,\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c01cab3516a24aa8908f1f0ec25ff002\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Elective surgeries are not the only measure of success in our public health service. What New Zealanders want, and what I want, is that people get the appropriate care they need when they need it. Overall, we\u2019ve seen an increase in planned care, which covers electives as well as minor operations, including many eye procedures, some gynaecological procedures, and skin lesion removals. In 2018-19 there were around 5,000 more planned care interventions than the previous year. We\u2019re treating more people in the right clinical setting, which is more appropriate and efficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223790607c43ee41ec908e0ad0aacc632d\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t he just fudging the numbers in that the actual number is not only 5,775 fewer than the previous year but 9,775 fewer than the Government actually planned for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297651018b07c43ce9b08f5100f874197\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cad850070ed84147b25bb92e14e05ad3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Housing (Public Housing)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022e80eeea61d4c424ca82f790081e9eeb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e80eeea61d4c424ca82f790081e9eeb3\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Housing (Public Housing): How many reports, if any, of instances of anti-social behaviour by state or emergency housing tenants have there been since this Government took office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022d83ab6f8b1284942bfb8ae6c64e33268\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d83ab6f8b1284942bfb8ae6c64e33268\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Associate Minister of Housing (Public Housing)):\u003C/span\u003E K\u0101inga Ora provide over 65,000 properties to over 185,000 women and children. They have advised me that, for the period from 31 October 2017 to 31 November 2019, there have been an average of 970 reports of antisocial behaviour per month. Reports of antisocial behaviour by tenants include such things as car noise, frequency of visitors, lawns not being mowed, and dogs. Over the period the member has asked, there have been a total of 24,386 reports of antisocial behaviour to K\u0101inga Ora, and this is consistent with the reported instances under the previous Government. While many reports are found to have no merit, K\u0101inga Ora works closely with people who make complaints about tenants, as we acknowledge living next to a disruptive neighbour can be stressful. Reports of antisocial behaviour by emergency housing tenants cannot be quantified. This would require a file-by-file analysis across multiple providers, and that data is not available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb09323e0ad140c2b81cc36114255e35\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to neighbours of some State house tenants, who have to put up with rubbish being continually dumped on their property, loud music, residents parked\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa370ab2548b42ec9acefa6f3364aef0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member will ask no more than two supplementary questions. He\u2019s up to three already. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f3b0566ebf54482b0b2b3c791021712\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: As I acknowledged, sometimes living next to a disruptive neighbour can cause stress. I would ask that if those neighbours of tenants have not already asked for help from K\u0101inga Ora, they do so, because the complaints process is making sure that they are looked after. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292d4e7f94c9a473baefc9deeb5234ef0\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: How many people, if any, have been evicted for antisocial behaviour from State houses since the Labour Government took office? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264020f6619ac47529790a0857f6ced76\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: Termination\u2014or eviction\u2014of a tenancy is only considered an option if circumstances place staff, contractors, or the public at serious risk. Sometimes, to sustain a tenancy, K\u0101inga Ora may need to find a tenant a more appropriate home to live in, which may be with another housing provider. K\u0101inga Ora and emergency housing providers will refer cases to police when the behaviour is illegal. I will add that we aren\u2019t following the previous Government\u2019s policy of having no compassion, because if we make an eviction and don\u2019t find an alternative means of accommodation for those tenants, they will end up coming back to us in the end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245fd79a73f244619819b266843fdb21c\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was not answered. It was quite specific about how many. We got a fantastic, broad explanation, or justification, but I did ask how many, and it was a pretty straight question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203201e6617474c6683a7c0067afbf96a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the question was addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That member has put his finger on it, but mistakenly so. This Minister of housing is not responsible for any Labour Government. There is a lexicon in this business since the election in 2017\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and there has been for 27 years\u2014and here we are, a Minister being asked for responsibility\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea95141f0d4f4f1197b4cb53fe5f8192\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume his seat. [Interruption] The member will resume his seat. The two members who interjected then will stand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d64a6146a7c44da9a9034c2e97124f9c\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022128508ce3d324da7b38f49621bc28439\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m trying to\u2014I\u2019m waiting for the second person even to look in my direction at the moment. That member will withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b98b41b208e4a0bbb0b42d3633a0cd1\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257859bde8b2b48bcac93a31448d51821\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I think the member had made his point by way of point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2fed7fc1c44498d8dc76868b36b3cb6\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: So does he consider it fair that almost 14,000 of our most vulnerable families are being forced to wait on the social housing wait-list while people are abusing the generosity of the State? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a766f0438d46401da7f2ed1da6f91b6a\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: What I find is unfair is that the previous Government didn\u2019t do anything about the demand in housing, and if they had built to the level at which we are, there would be no housing register. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0eda2d9747245d8874caea635d5cfa9\u0022\u003EMarama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: How does this Government plan to support the wellbeing of State house tenants with complex needs, ensuring they can remain in their homes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f82598c35d13466a8748633603d95ac9\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: In the context of the primary question, if there are complaints from neighbours of K\u0101inga Ora tenants, K\u0101inga Ora works very closely with those tenants to have a management plan. As you can imagine, some of those tenants may have complex issues such as mental health issues or drug and alcohol issues to manage, and simply not dealing with those, and perhaps taking the attitude of the previous Government, only pushes the problem out further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226be1381919f54d3aa66ebca1e382c783\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it\u2019s fair that there are over 14,000 people on the State house wait-list, largely as a consequence of the fact that the previous Government failed to build State houses and, in fact, sold them off? If they had built at the same rate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295502be79b164f7795585d7ac5912670\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! Order! The member had her two, and she was attempting to make a speech. Therefore, I will rule that question out. If the member had been listening to her colleague, she would have heard the question answered anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220726db97d3944c9ea7d163d83ed619d8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002272e7fbea841d45719c136942071b6db5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272e7fbea841d45719c136942071b6db5\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What actions have the Police taken in response to the eruption on Whakaari / White Island?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022245ba91df5a54fadbb4ecfae63af2c52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022245ba91df5a54fadbb4ecfae63af2c52\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Police are working hard to ascertain whether it is safe to land on the island to recover the victims. Please let me assure the House and the people of New Zealand that this is a police priority. Results from a flight that collected gas samples on Tuesday afternoon are currently being analysed, and this is important for understanding the processes driving volcanic activity and assessing deployment risk. The New Zealand Defence Force and Fire and Emergency New Zealand staff also launched a drone at 8.30 this morning, and information from this surveillance will help inform decisions by police. Police will work closely with WorkSafe and the coroner in their investigations, and police continue to support families of victims on the ground, with the assistance of local iwi, Red Cross, and Victim Support. As I said yesterday in the House, the bottom line is that police are doing all they possibly can in what is a tragic and significant event. For now, our duty and priority is a return of people\u2019s loved ones to them. I am confident that police are doing all they can to achieve this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f3c60e3b89c4147a713febc88a0839a\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has he seen from scientists about the likely conditions that police recovery teams would face following the eruption at Whakaari / White Island?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce04b0e3eece440687d34cff42a1bfb9\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: GNS Science (GNS) has advised that at around 4 this morning the level of volcanic tremor significantly increased on Whakaari. Ongoing monitoring by GNS suggests continuing high gas pressures within the volcano. Poisonous and corrosive gases such as carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulphide, and sulphur dioxide are, I understand, present. High levels of these gases can make it difficult to breathe, can cause loss of consciousness and damage airways and internal organs, and, in extreme cases, can kill people. The conditions are compounded by volatile jets of super-hot steam and mud in several sites. GNS reports that the situation remains highly uncertain as to future activity, and eruptions in the next 24 hours are still likely to occur. I\u2019m advised that those who will be deployed to the island, which will include members of the police disaster victim identification team, will encounter serious physical and chemical hazards. It is a contaminated site that requires the utmost precautions, and police need to prepare for the conditions to ensure their people understand the risks and can do their job safely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b2e17594af45d788fc7249d661b6de\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has he received from police about the victim identification process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cec0cc2707a48bc896f6969f2b47ed0\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Since yesterday, it has been confirmed that six people are now confirmed deceased, eight people are unaccounted for, and up to 25 people of the 31 patients in specialist burn units have critical injuries. Police and Health and others are moving as fast and as carefully as they can. Post-mortem examinations are being carried out in Auckland today by specialist forensic pathologists. Disaster victim identification is extremely difficult in cases like this, where there are serious burns. Sadly, visual identification is not possible. It is poor practice to rely on visual identification alone. There have been cases of mistaken identity in the past when visual identity has been solely relied on. It is always a challenge when there is a mass fatality event. We want to reunite families with the bodies of their loved ones as soon as we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8bb5fc3fd344462a2f0f71fd20c20db\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Agriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u00221bd59f7d32c044faaec6d08fc2d34dcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bd59f7d32c044faaec6d08fc2d34dcd\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: What were the key conclusions of the high-level advice his Ministry for Primary Industries officials said they provided him with to support the Essential Freshwater work programme proposals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002281a4f36a6ba54ec9a04265ed8d844c49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281a4f36a6ba54ec9a04265ed8d844c49\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture: On behalf of the Minister, I will mention two: firstly, that New Zealand needs to do better to protect our waterways and the brand values that underpin our export returns; and, secondly, that for many farmers who are already doing great work, the cost will be minimal. They accept we must protect our natural environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229045089151864d0991b0e7582b1f03b3\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to DairyNZ\u2019s multiple - peer reviewed economic modelling that shows the Essential Freshwater policy package is one of the largest economic challenges posed to the dairy sector in a generation, potentially costing up to $6 billion a year by 2050?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022100af616140943aca0fa1606568fa118\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am going to ask the member to rephrase the question to include either something from the question or the answer. The member asked about a completely different set of recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249994499ca5b4a1a8ba2dd778f68981a\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: What specific economic cost did the Ministry for Primary Industries suggest the Essential Freshwater reforms would have on rural New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0d0880197874b3c88a863f648861823\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: That clearly depends on the catchment in question, the farm practice in question, and will vary. I would note that, overall, costs will be much lower than the recent increases in returns to farmers from the prices that are being received under this Government\u2014in no small part because the exchange rate has settled to a more realistic level for New Zealand under this Government\u2019s policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e430f51035314359ae4b50f15ddd2b18\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Is he saying that the recent adjustment in offshore market returns is going to compensate the industry\u2019s assessment of the cost being $60 billion, or $6 billion a year, by 2050?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227442d3b237094d198bf94ac7b67b266a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I didn\u2019t say that, and it wasn\u2019t even in the member\u2019s question. Now that it\u2019s in this question, I would refute that. I would note that one of the cost assumptions in the DairyNZ modelling is that it assumes that no change was required under the 2017 national policy statement of the prior Government and asserts that it\u2019s a cost of this package. We don\u2019t think that\u2019s correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227afc9528b8bc4529acc6c74e295d61b1\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to the chief executive of Rabobank, who, in the recent survey released two days ago, suggested that those future costs in Government policy were driving the level of sentiment in the sector that has not been seen in a generation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b849b18cda54152a53964ac32d6ba53\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I would disagree. I would say that there\u2019s a lot of good news out there. There are record prices, there\u2019s a realistic exchange rate, there\u2019s record low interest rates, and the only negativity seems to be both the tightening of credit from the banks themselves and the sentiment of the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d7f0c21ab8e24bc797eb7c7bc1c041a2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfcdd74318ee44b493f9ea28fb961650\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfcdd74318ee44b493f9ea28fb961650\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education: What steps are the Government taking to better support pre-school children with learning support needs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3bf7ba796c34a2283c9d1a7e98abc3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3bf7ba796c34a2283c9d1a7e98abc3d\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E In July this year, I launched the Learning Support Action Plan. Priority three of this plan is to strengthen early intervention by improving the type, mix, and volume of services available. As part of the learning support delivery model regions are implementing a range of local approaches to better meet demand for learning support in their communities. Children\u2019s needs vary, and not everyone requires individualised specialist support. Many will benefit from advice or training for their wh\u0101nau, their teachers, or the people they spend most time with. Local approaches reflect this and include providing initial advice and support more quickly through locally run clinics or hubs, or through establishing regular liaison visits where early learning teachers and parents can meet with professionals and discuss their concerns as they arise; building the skills and knowledge of wh\u0101nau and early learning services through training, coaching, or team planning sessions so they can support their children more effectively; and working with partner organisations to ensure the most appropriate supports for a child is requested. We\u2019re also working with Te K\u014Dhanga Reo National Trust to co-design and deliver an awareness campaign to ensure parents and kaiako can identify needs and access the supports they require.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7ba0f4a201444a0a03663f75f61623d\u0022\u003EMark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Where are these local approaches in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcc2cadfbd6b4556b8444567081e1f8e\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: In the Wellington region, one of the new approaches being trialled with the 16 He Wh\u0101nau Manaaki kindergartens in Porirua is to allocate ministry specialist staff as key workers for specific early learning centres. Learning support specialists visit regularly and respond on the spot to concerns. Over 100 families have met with our staff since the end of January 2019. They\u2019ve all received support, ranging from advice and guidance to immediate allocation for a more tailored early intervention service. In Tai R\u0101whiti, ministry specialists run awhi appointments, where wh\u0101nau receive immediate advice and guidance about how to support their children\u2019s communication. In Papakura, Franklin, and Manurewa, ministry staff have been working with Plunket on an initiative to better respond to need in the areas. Each month, a ministry speech language therapist and early intervention teacher spend the day at the Plunket rooms in Papakura and Franklin. Parents and wh\u0101nau are able to meet with ministry specialists to discuss needs that have been identified through the regular Plunket check. In Otago-Southland, staff provide a liaison approach to supporting high-referring early learning services. Specialists visit the early learning service regularly and work with their management to identify children of concern who might need support, the nature of their needs, and how they might be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226d00d1ca8f6471aada2b90cab1e011b\u0022\u003EMark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: What has been the impact of these approaches, and is the answer to these needs all about money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230d29b0791eb4f82b1331363ea20bd09\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: Despite supporting 636, or 5.8 percent, more children than the same time last year, waiting lists for early intervention supports are beginning to trend down and average waiting times are decreasing. While this Government has invested an extra $5.9 million into early intervention, the demand for services keeps increasing, so we need to find new and better ways to provide support for our preschool children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022238dc6ad7f8648d6b73e6c9549564c33\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022439085e8ab594c3db295c377a947004f\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3c4663668df40b3a25b46e5013a2726\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3c4663668df40b3a25b46e5013a2726\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to begin today by offering my heartfelt condolences to all of those affected by the eruption at Whakaari / White Island. As we heard in the House yesterday, both from the Government and from the Opposition, this Parliament is united in expressing not only our grief for those people but also our support for their friends and families. This is an unimaginable horror for people, particularly those who were on holiday. They were no doubt enjoying themselves, no doubt part of an excursion that they had been looking forward to, in some cases for years. To find themselves caught up in such a horrific situation makes this even worse. We think, particularly, of the families of those who are deceased and those who are unaccounted for. We also think of those who are in hospital, 25 of whom are in a critical condition, as the Minister of Police said today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe experience, as has been outlined again by the Minister of Police, for those who are exposed to volcanic ash, is a horrendous one, and, at this time, I want to make a special note of the incredible work of burns specialists around the hospitals of New Zealand. Every major hospital in New Zealand mobilised its burns specialists within hours and was able to receive people within hours from Whakat\u0101ne. It has been a heroic effort once again by our medical professionals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAlongside that, I want to make a special acknowledgement of all of the emergency services\u2014police, Fire and Emergency New Zealand, the ambulance staff, the National Emergency Management Agency, and the local civil defence\u2014and the members of the public, who have rallied round in a way that every single New Zealander can be incredibly proud of. This is an evolving situation, and it is challenging when we can\u2019t be completely certain or provide that certainty. But we know that our emergency services are working towards that as fast as they possibly can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EToday, I was very proud to announce the Government\u2019s $12 billion capital investment, lifting New Zealand\u2019s capital investment to its highest level in more than 20 years. We took this step today to futureproof the New Zealand economy. We also took this step today because we inherited an infrastructure deficit. Every member of this House would be able to give an example of a hospital or a school or a rail line or a road that was left to rot under the last Government. But, if you want to know what an infrastructure deficit looks like, it looks like this. [Holds up graph showing net capital spending over time] It looks like years of low capital investment, years of failing to invest in what is needed. It is no different to any household. If you defer the maintenance, the problem gets worse. That is what we inherited, and that is why we are investing $50 billion in capital over the next five years. When we came into office, that was scheduled to be $30 billion. So we have nearly doubled that, and we are proud of that record, because in New Zealand there is a significant need for these projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut, beyond that, we have some of the lowest interest rates that we\u2019ve seen in the world, and we also have an economy that is well positioned to be able to take on the additional borrowing that is required to be able to put these projects into place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI am very pleased that we\u2019re doing this. It builds on two Budgets of strong and consistent capital investment: $1.7 billion in our hospitals, $1.4 billion in our schools, $1 billion into KiwiRail, and the $17.7 billion that has been input into the National Land Transport Fund. And now we add to that. Not only does it benefit our economy overall; it gives certainty to our construction industry. Our $400 million going into schools\u2014that\u2019s the local tradies who benefit out of that. The big horizontal infrastructure projects\u2014the pipeline is now there: $6.8 billion for new transport projects and money to decarbonise parts of the public sector, such as schools and hospitals who have those coal-fired boilers that we need to turn around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is the package of a Government that has its eye on the long-term wellbeing of New Zealanders. We are futureproofing our economy, and we are actually putting our money where our mouth is. No more ghost roads; these are the projects that will futureproof the New Zealand economy, and I am extremely proud of a Government that is being able to put this programme of work on top of what we have already done, in contrast to the previous Government. The negativity opposite is in contrast to the positive views of this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00221caf2dccfbf3490c964b4e6ccdd784f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221caf2dccfbf3490c964b4e6ccdd784f3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to start by also acknowledging the families who have suffered great loss on White Island in the dreadful events. I want to acknowledge the hard work of all those working to save their lives in hospitals around the country and wish them all the very, very best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EHow is it possible that we could go from a country that was growing quickly, which had surpluses as far as the eye could see, and in two short years\u2014two short years\u2014to take that to an economy which is growing slowly on a per person basis, in fact, hardly growing at all, and in deficit? Unbelievable incompetence to go from that situation two years ago to where we find ourselves today, in deficit. It will be the first of many deficits that this Government will deliver if they get any more chance, because we all know that they haven\u2019t ever found a problem that they can\u2019t solve by more spending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhy is the economy slowing? So we\u2019ve seen the half-yearly update released today. It was going to be 3 percent; now 2.2 percent on per person level\u2014that\u2019s only about 0.5 percent. Why are we slowing? Because this Government has got one hand dragging down the economy by adding costs, by creating massive policy uncertainty wherever you look, and so that the natural reaction of people who would invest to grow the economy is to keep their hands in their pocket and wait to figure out what this Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019ve seen all the incompetence through KiwiBuild and, in particular, in infrastructure. It\u2019s amazing the gall that we have of the Minister of Finance to turn up and say, \u201CWe are the infrastructure party.\u201D They\u2019ve done nothing for two years. The only thing they did in infrastructure in this Government for two years has been to cancel all the roading projects that National had on the go because Julie Anne Genter believes that she should never give in to the car fascists, and because Phil Twyford thinks that we\u2019ve over-invested in roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo they cancelled them all for ideological reasons\u2014have done nothing. They\u2019ve severed the infrastructure pipeline. People are heading off overseas, the builders. And now they come in and say they\u2019re going to spend up big. Well, we don\u2019t trust them and we don\u2019t believe them. Why don\u2019t we believe them? Because they haven\u2019t delivered in the past and they won\u2019t deliver now. The Prime Minister seems to think that announcing something is all you need to do, and that\u2019s the same as delivering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe Faafoi defence perfectly encapsulates how this Government operates. He says, \u201CDon\u2019t worry, I\u2019m on to it, bro. I\u2019ve got a plan, but I\u2019ve done absolutely nothing.\u201D And that\u2019s how this Government operates. That perfectly encapsulates how this Government operates\u2014big talk, no action. That\u2019s why New Zealanders will be looking at this big number\u2014$12 billion they are going to spend over the next 10 years or however long it is\u2014and they have no confidence that anything will be delivered, because they can\u2019t deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s happened with infrastructure? What have they done? Well, they\u2019ve cancelled a whole lot of projects and then they\u2019ve talked about the slow tram down Dominion Road. We still don\u2019t know\u2014two years after this Government has started\u2014what the purpose of this slow tram is. Is it to go to the airport quickly or is it some urban regeneration project? Don\u2019t know. Two years\u2014they still haven\u2019t worked out what the project is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd then, of course, we\u2019ve got big talk around the ports from Shane Jones. What a disgrace to go about a massive infrastructure question\u2014which is an important question, one that we should be considering, but which would have impact and consequences for decades to come\u2014and have that driven by some kind of backroom deal between Shane Jones and a Prime Minister determined to announce something. That is no way to make major infrastructure decisions, and we need to take these things far more seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, if KiwiBuild is anything to go by, all the announcements that have been made today, as vague as they are, won\u2019t lead to the results that New Zealanders need to see and want to see in terms of providing the opportunity for this economy to start growing again. What do we need to see? We need to see a Government\u2014a National Government\u2014that restores confidence so that people will invest and that revives the economy so that we can lift our aspirations as to what we can achieve in this country, because right here, right now, the export prices that we\u2019re receiving are at historically high levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard nothing but \u201CGlobal headwinds, it\u2019s Donald Trump\u2019s fault, it\u2019s President Xi\u2019s fault\u2014the world is all bad, bad, bad, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s slowing down.\u201D What a load of nonsense. The terms of trade are at full throttle. New Zealand should be booming right now. Yes, there\u2019s all sorts of uncertainty out there. But the prices we\u2019re getting are very strong. We should be going well and we\u2019re being held back by a Government that doesn\u2019t know what it\u2019s doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe only thing about horizontal infrastructure that we\u2019re seeing from this Government is that they\u2019re lying flat on their backs doing nothing. As Mr Faafoi said, \u201CI\u2019m on to it, bro. I\u2019m on to it. I\u2019ve got a plan, but actually I can hold my head high and say with all honesty that I did absolutely nothing.\u201D And that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to get from this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c623a9d3eb7d41958d3440735f3bdcfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c623a9d3eb7d41958d3440735f3bdcfb\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Civil Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you for this opportunity. First, if the House will indulge me, a few words of farewell to those who have passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, koutou kua ngaro atu ki te p\u014D ki roto i te pah\u016B nui ki runga o Whakaari, t\u0113nei te tangi atu ki a koutou, haere, haere, haere. Ka whakahokia mai waku k\u014Drero ki a t\u0101tou te hunga ora, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E[Therefore, to you who have departed to the underworld in the great eruption on Whakaari / White Island, farewell, farewell, farewell. My thoughts return to us the living, greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI want to, in my contribution, speak to some of the events that have unfolded over the past few days. If I can, I would like to start down on the West Coast. In the past week, the West Coast was hammered by large rainfall, which saw significant damage to the infrastructure throughout the West Coast. It saw up to a thousand tourists trapped in Franz Josef; it saw communities isolated across the West Coast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThis isn\u2019t anything new to the people of the West Coast, but it does continue to provide an ongoing challenge for the people of the West Coast. In that vein, I want to acknowledge their resilience\u2014the resilience of the people of the West Coast to get on with life, to make sure that whatever the weather that impacts upon them, they have a rather optimistic attitude towards what goes on. I want to commend them also for wrapping their support around the many tourists who found themselves stuck throughout the West Coast. I want to acknowledge, also, the patience of those tourists as we looked to support them to continue their travels and explore the beauty that is our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIn our recent package and announcement by the Prime Minister, we committed to $100,000 to go towards supporting both the West Coast and South Canterbury, who have been affected by the heavy rains.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI can confirm today that now there are only approximately 32 tourists in Franz Josef. Many of the tourists have gone on to continue their vacation here in Aotearoa New Zealand, to explore how beautiful our country is. With that beauty they acknowledge that there are many challenges, in particular when a significant weather event hits. So can I just thank the councils and all of the local people for the work that they did to ensure that the West Coast can continue to be the beautiful place that it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI now turn to Whakaari, to White Island, and to Whakat\u0101ne. Over the past two days, I have spent time amongst the people and I want to acknowledge a few of them in my contribution today. Can I start close to home. I would like to acknowledge the Prime Minister for her compassion and leadership in what is a truly tragic event for the community, not just in Whakat\u0101ne but internationally. I would also like to take this opportunity to acknowledge my colleagues, Tamati Coffey and also Kiritapu Allan\u2014and I want to acknowledge the Hon Anne Tolley\u2014for the work that they did in their community to make sure that that community felt supported, and that community knew that we were there to support them and awhi them through what was a challenging time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI also now want to turn to my contribution to the local civil defence emergency management group, who alongside first responders, many volunteers, DHBs, health professionals, and the community at large worked particularly hard in the aftermath of the volcanic eruption. The Prime Minister has already spoken about the bravery, the selflessness, and the attributes of a community that cares about people. I was fortunate to be there firsthand to witness the people in motion, the people who hadn\u2019t slept for nearly 48 hours, all because they were driven to make sure that those who were affected by the significant event were supported. The local government and particularly the local mayor and mayors in surrounding districts who came to support\u2014I want to acknowledge them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the police. I want to acknowledge the Defence Force. I want to acknowledge the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade. I also want to acknowledge the Immigration Service and the ACC service, who have worked hard with tour operators, with families, with community, and with people travelling from afar and those travelling nearby. They did an exceptional job and every person in this country should hold their head high in the way that our agencies, local and central, come together to support people through such a challenging time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI apologise for the sombre note of my contribution. But I feel today and on behalf of everyone here as the Minister of Civil Defence, a big acknowledgment to all of those people involved. And I say to them all: kia kaha, kia m\u0101ia, kia manawanui [be strong, be brave, be steadfast].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022b952a151fc694e308e66f08a923cb9d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b952a151fc694e308e66f08a923cb9d4\u0022\u003ETAMATI COFFEY (Labour\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I echo the sentiments relayed by my colleague and friend the Hon Peeni Henare in light of what has been a tragic situation back home in our region. The Eastern Bay of Plenty is a beautiful place. Whakaari itself, White Island, always casts a shadow over the water whenever you look out from the Eastern Bay beaches, and for a long time there\u2019s been a history with the iwi around there. Te Wh\u0101nau a Apanui, Te Whakat\u014Dhea, and Ng\u0101ti Awa\u2014Ng\u0101i T\u016Bhoe as well\u2014back in the day would take turns heading out the island to collect t\u012Bt\u012B or mutton bird, because that was where they went and they would all take it in turn to go out there and collect it. It\u2019s had a long history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThere have been deaths on the island before. Once upon a time in the island\u2019s history, it was mined for its sulphur. And actually, I think it was in 1914, there was an accident that happened there. It was an avalanche and a lot of men lost their lives. So I acknowledge that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EOn Monday, I got a phone call and the phone call was basically to say, \u201CDon\u2019t go to Wellington. The volcano has erupted. Whakaari has erupted. I think you\u2019d better head there.\u201D So I jumped straight into the car. I went over to the eastern part of my electorate and I jumped out of the car. And what I realised was that I was standing at White Island Tours with a bunch of people there. I had no idea when I pulled up that actually they were people who had come straight off the boat, that had been rescued by the boats, and had been put back to safety there. They were dazed. They were confused. They didn\u2019t know what was going on. And they had seen things that they weren\u2019t obviously ready to share. It was a very poignant moment. But from that point on, I made sure that I was part of this to support those people that needed support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ve already heard, a lot of the people involved in this came off the cruise ships, and I want to acknowledge the role that the cruise ships have actually played in this in terms of releasing their information, working proactively with our all-of-Government approach. And it\u2019s been brilliant to see NEMA, our National Emergency Management Agency, civil defence, the Whakat\u0101ne District Council, the New Zealand Police, Immigration, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, GNS Science\u2014everybody coming together\u2014and Te Puni K\u014Dkiri coming together to try and provide an all-of-Government response to something that hasn\u2019t been seen in the Eastern Bay of Plenty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ECan I also acknowledge the role that our M\u0101ori communities play in emergency disasters such as this. I take my mind back to when we had the terrorist killings earlier this year in Christchurch. As a M\u0101ori community, back in Rotorua, the word was put out, because nobody quite knew how to cope with that situation. So what we decided to do was to get everybody together at the marae. We put the call out. It wasn\u2019t exclusive, but we just wanted to get together and feel that solidarity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EIt happened in 2017 in Edgecumbe, where marae opened up their doors. Rautahi Marae opened up their doors to host the civil defence emergency centre. And it happened again yesterday when we held a hui at Te M\u0101nuka T\u016Btahi Marae in Whakat\u0101ne. The iwi hosted it. We got inside and they said, \u201CThere is no media in here, but there is also no agenda in here as well. We want to be able to look after our people that are suffering through this. We want to acknowledge our workers who have colleagues that have been wrapped up in this this awful, awful tragedy.\u201D And for a good couple of hours we sang songs, spoke, and showed solidarity. We heard from some members of the wh\u0101nau who were waiting to hear back, and I understand that those families are still waiting. So my thoughts go out to them at this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EOne story that I want to recount is the story of a boy who only recently started working for White Island Tours. In fact, he was studying to be a teacher and he was well on his way to becoming a trained teacher. He only had his diploma in teaching to go, but he decided to take a bit of a side road and he decided to take up a job at White Island Tours. I spoke with his grandmother and I spoke with his girlfriend; they are, obviously, still waiting. I will forever have the words of his grandmother sitting in my head, the optimism in her voice, saying, \u201CMy boy, he\u2019s a fighter\u2014he\u2019s a fighter\u2014and I know that despite everything that would have been going on, I bet he would have found a cave and I bet he\u2019s still probably sitting in that cave just waiting for somebody to come and find him.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ESo to all of the wh\u0101nau that are waiting for those answers, I acknowledge you and I acknowledge everybody that\u2019s pulled together to make this tragedy the best situation that it can be in light of the circumstances. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u0022472bc148b0f743b1a3084f280752453b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022472bc148b0f743b1a3084f280752453b\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As I rise to give my contribution to the debate, I too will add my sincere condolences to the families who have been caught up in this dreadful tragedy of having to live with the pain of loss and the pain of not yet quite knowing the scale of the loss. That is an incredibly difficult situation that people\u2014in many cases, visitors to our country\u2014have found themselves in. I acknowledge all those who are part of the comfort that the collective Aotearoa are wrapping around these people\u2014thank you for your efforts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ECan I also make a small comment to the community of Whakat\u0101ne. I come from Papamoa, Tauranga, and I know that you will have been deeply impacted by this, because Whakaari / White Island is as precious a jewel for you as Mauao, Mount Maunganui, is for us. So when something like this happens on your special taonga, it really does cut quite deep, and I just want to acknowledge that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThe general debate is a time where you critique a Government, and I do wish to do that on behalf of the 23,000 farming families that as the National Party spokesperson for agriculture I have a great privilege to seek to represent. The Prime Minister, at the start of the year, said that this was going to be the year of delivery. Well, for those 23,000 farmers, it feels like the year of the kick in the guts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EYou step through the policy framework and the policy solutions that this Government put on the table, with a particular focus on rural New Zealand, during the course of this year. First up was the capital gains tax. Now, yes, eventually that got put back in the box, but you look at what was in that document. There was a capital gains tax, a water tax, a fertiliser tax, a nutrient tax. It was a clear direction of travel; a clear view around where this Government frames and puts rural New Zealand in terms of its import, and it is way down the bottom of the list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EFollowing that, we then had these significant impacts and changes around how we approach climate change from an agriculture perspective. This Government trumpets the fact that they have reached agreement with the sector leaders around climate change. The way they frame it up is that success in that context is that they\u2019ve co-designed a tax that they can tax the most emissions-efficient food producers in the world, that somehow if they reach that position in 2025, that\u2019s a success. Well, that is a complete failure from our perspective. It is weak public policy thinking. The actual way you make a difference is to work with the sector to firstly measure it, then manage it, invest in innovation and technology to come up with tools to mitigate, and then\u2014from our perspective\u2014you will see the market respond as it always does, with farmers responding to the tools that they have at their disposal. But to think that the future in terms of climate change adaptation is a function of tax talks to the narrowness that this Government brings to these critical debates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EAnd then you move on to the fundamental issue that is confronting rural New Zealand at the moment, and this is significant land use change from pasture to forestry; huge numbers. The Government doesn\u2019t have the data; they only have the overseas investment data. They\u2019ve opened the door to foreign investment and closed it to every other aspect of rural New Zealand, unless you want to buy a farm to put into forests or you want to buy a forest. It is a distortion and it\u2019s creating massive challenges in rural New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThen you look at the water reforms. No economic analysis. No social analysis. They put the\u2014in their mind\u2014leading scientists in a room, and say, \u201CYour job is simply to come up with what you think water quality looks like from a set of values, and that\u2019s what we will take to the country.\u201D No sense at all of the doability of it. No partnership with farmers. No actually sitting with communities who have to grapple with the trade-off of values between economic, social ambition, and environmental outcomes\u2014none of that put was in the paper at all. It was just a David Parker blunt instrument to really make a signal that they see, from this Government\u2019s perspective, that they believe the agriculture industries have their best days behind them. It has been a theme that has stuck with the Labour Government for 20 or 30 years. They want to diversify the economy rapidly away from agribusiness. Well, on this side of the House, we understand farmers, we understand the struggles they do every day to deliver for their family, deliver for their community, deliver for the country, and deliver for the environment. It\u2019s about time that was celebrated as opposed to constantly condemned by that lot on the other side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002275de9e0c2d3d4dd4b8e835cde54d705b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275de9e0c2d3d4dd4b8e835cde54d705b\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E As the Minister of Finance noted, this is a Government which has a long-term eye on the wellbeing of New Zealanders. We care about people and planet, and that\u2019s why we want to turn around New Zealand\u2019s rubbish record on waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to share with the House part of a letter I received from nine-year-old Hugh of Te Puke. It highlights why what we\u2019re doing as a Government to tackle our waste issues is so important. Here\u2019s what Hugh said: \u201CI am worried about all the rubbish on our wonderful planet. I am worried that all the animals both on land and sea and the birds that fly are dying because there is a lot of plastic around where they live, and they think it is food and eat it. When they eat plastic, it can cause them to choke and die or get very sick. I do not want to see all animals die. Our family loves animals, and, except for pests, we want to enjoy animals. The beach and our ocean are not places for rubbish.\u201D Hugh is right. There is too much rubbish and too much plastic ending up in our streams and in our oceans and going to landfill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo we are confronting our waste problem, and with the Greens at the heart of Government we are making a difference. We are tackling an issue that past Governments, particularly the National Government, neglected for far too long. So in the two years since we\u2019ve been in Government, we have banned microplastics, we have banned single-use plastic shopping bags, we are designing a container return scheme for beverage bottles and cans, and that will significantly increase the recovery of those beverage bottles and cans\u2014the recovery of materials that they\u2019re made of, like plastic and aluminium\u2014and that will reduce litter and waste. We\u2019ve set out the consultation and done the criteria for product stewardship schemes to deal with challenging products like e-waste, like tyres, and like batteries so that we design waste out of our system from the get go. We make the economy more efficient by recovering more materials, creating jobs in the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIn response to China\u2019s ban on dealing with the world\u2019s waste, we are redesigning, with local councils, kerbside recycling, wanting to have a more consistent system, and mapping our waste and reprocessing infrastructure across New Zealand. We\u2019ve got a major plan to expand the landfill levy so that we get revenue to establish more resource recovery centres, more reprocessing facilities in New Zealand for materials that would end up in landfill: construction and demolition materials, metals, plastics, particularly the high-value plastics. And we\u2019ve got a major initiative to get more data on waste to better understand where material flows. And, of course, we\u2019ve got the $40 million from the Provincial Growth Fund, which has been set aside to turn plastic and other waste into useful material for businesses and consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ELast weekend, the Prime Minister\u2019s Chief Science Advisor, Professor Juliet Gerrard, released a fantastic report called Rethinking Plastics in Aotearoa New Zealand. I really want to thank Professor Gerrard and her team for the inspirational examples in this report and its recommendations on how we can really rethink plastic and redesign the systems. On Sunday, the Prime Minister and I announced the Government\u2019s plan to respond to this report. We are building into our ambitious plan on waste many of the recommendations from this report. We want to shift away from low-value plastics, hard-to-recycle plastics like polystyrene and PVC, to using instead ones like HDPE and PET, the 1 and 2 plastics. We want to phase out things like polystyrene meat trays and Styrofoam cups. We want to ensure that we can reprocess the materials that those things are currently made of. We want to phase out single-use plastic items like plastic cutlery\u2014some of the issues around that and the fact that they end up in the oceans. We want to stimulate innovation and development in terms of soft plastics, and we\u2019ve got a lot of work under way with local government. We want to develop a labelling scheme for plastics, and there\u2019s already work under way with industry on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAs Professor Gerrard says, there is no silver bullet. We need a systems change. This Government has got an ambitious plan, and we are getting on and doing it. Instead of the constant negativity that we have on that side of the House, I\u2019d encourage them to read this report\u2014all of the inspiring examples of businesses, communities, councils, and others getting on and thinking about how we can redesign our system, how we can get rid of unnecessary waste going to landfill, and how we can change the way we see plastics. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca1e0138f53842c79825c8f41f8ef2cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca1e0138f53842c79825c8f41f8ef2cc\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Before I make my remarks, I too, like others, would like to extend our thoughts and support to families who right now are grieving and in uncertainty, and also express our thanks and admiration to the first responders and to the community of the Eastern Bay of Plenty, Whakat\u0101ne, and other areas who are supporting the people surrounded by these events. Our thoughts go out to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker, the Hon Eugenie Sage, talked about policies that aim for the long-term wellbeing of New Zealand. I guess that\u2019s what every Government wants to do, but I would have to say, when I look at the beautiful region of Taranaki, that some of those policies aren\u2019t working out and the environment is paying a price and the economy is taking a hit. I would call this a failed social, environmental, and economic experiment in terms of what this Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EWhen I think about the unemployment figures that came out on 30 September this year, which put Taranaki as the worst in the country, at 6 percent, I look back at one year prior to that, when it was only 4.1 percent\u2014and prior to that, one year prior, 4.9 percent. We had come through, two years ago, a slump in commodity prices internationally around dairy produce and, of course, the price of petrochemicals. We had been coming through it, from 4.9 down to 4.1, and then bang, we\u2019re at 6 percent. I wondered why that was, because there\u2019s a lot of vibrancy in the region where I live. You know, construction is quite busy. There are lots of other things that people are turning their hearts and minds towards, but as I talked to businesses, they said that uncertainty has been rife in our region because of Government policy and Government decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EI know the Hon Megan Woods, in an opinion piece in response to my criticism of the Government\u2019s agenda, applauded the people of Taranaki for leading the transition in this country. I\u2019d have to say that Taranaki did not choose to do that; it was forced upon them. Many people still disagree. There was no consultation with the people of Taranaki. They received a phone call the night before\u2014whether that was industry, civic leaders, iwi groups, community groups, or whatever. So the transition, which I think we have been undertaking in terms of energy transition for decades now, being one of the best countries in the world for renewable primary and electricity generation, came as a great surprise. We had the promise, \u201CDon\u2019t worry; this will be fine. This is not going to happen for decades to come.\u201D Well, we understand, we who live in that city and in that region, that businesses stopped employing, people who were applying for citizenship and had owned homes left the country, and companies left. There is now uncertainty right across the sectors, not just in agriculture and petroleum exploration but in all the service sectors that support them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EWe get criticised by the Government for being negative. Well, actually, we are just attached and connected to our constituencies. We just say what\u2019s going on. And, by the way, the Green Party will be disappointed to know that there\u2019s been a significant reduction\u2014well, they might be happy at this\u2014in the use of natural gas for electricity generation, but in the meantime we\u2019ve had to rely on more coal, which is twice the emission level. In fact, we are now burning double the amount this year than we did last year, and I would say that is a failed environmental experiment. Not only have this Government\u2019s policies created higher levels of unemployment and uncertainty, fewer people getting jobs, more young people not knowing whether their future exists in Taranaki or not, but now we actually have more environmental issues to face as well. Because of that, we see the wholesale price of electricity increase by 50 percent over the last 15 months because it actually has a reliance\u2014natural gas underpins this. So we see, actually, a failed economic experiment as well, and it\u2019s all gone backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EI just wish this Government had listened to people, but they don\u2019t and they box on and they push ahead. They think they are right\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de4266c41ccb40dc85cb68239cfb17f9\u0022\u003EHon Maggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: Arrogant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d1b5bd618d0432184896022971e4e12\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: They are arrogant, and, unfortunately, arrogance only breeds ignorance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e162ce34d08a40cd912facf0fa4af37d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5a7f186925c4478b05c03ebaf1ef56d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5a7f186925c4478b05c03ebaf1ef56d\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e Te M\u0101ngai, kei te t\u016B au in\u0101ianei i t\u0113nei w\u0101 tino taumaha m\u014D a m\u0101tou ng\u0101 iwi o te waka o M\u0101taatua, mai i te tino, te, i t\u0113nei w\u0101, he tino taumaha te \u0101hua i runga i a m\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u0100, ka huri aku whakaaro ki ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata kua wehe atu. Kua huri aku whakaaro ki te motu o Whakaari, ki ng\u0101 iwi o Ng\u0101ti Awa, mai i te maunga tapu o P\u016Btauaki, mai i te awa o Te Rangit\u0101iki, m\u014D ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata kei reira, m\u014D ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata kua mate i t\u0113nei wiki, i \u0113nei r\u0101, \u0101, m\u014D ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata kei reira e t\u016B ana, ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata ora. Ka huri aku whakaaro ki a r\u0101tou ng\u0101 tino pukukaimahi e t\u016B ana ki te awhia i a r\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E[Greetings Mr Speaker, I am standing now at this troubled time for us, the tribes of the M\u0101taatua canoe, because at this time there is a real heaviness upon us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EAnd my thoughts turn to the people who have passed. My thoughts go to Whakaari / White Island, to the tribes of Ng\u0101ti Awa, from the sacred mountain of P\u016Btauaki and the Rangit\u0101iki River, for the people there, for the people who have died this week, in these days, and, for the people who are standing there, the living. My thoughts turn to those who are working so hard and standing up to help them.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EWhilst I\u2019m here \u0101-tinana, in person, my thoughts, my heart, and my mind are all at home with the people in Whakat\u0101ne. The events that occurred on Monday for our community\u2014we are a small community in Whakat\u0101ne. As the mayor described, we\u2019re big enough to kind of get things done, but we\u2019re small enough to know everybody. Right now, my thoughts are with those who have lost loved ones, but they\u2019re also with every single person on that Monday. We all know many, many of those who, literally, dropped their tools\u2014whether they be builders, teachers, lawyers. It didn\u2019t matter who people were; when they got that siren and that alarm went, they dropped tools and they ran to those organisations that many of our community are a part of\u2014that they are volunteers of\u2014whether that be the fire services, whether that be the coastguard, St John. The response from those first responders on that day, just a couple of days ago now, I cannot but take my hat off and acknowledge every single person and those families that supported those individuals to go out and participate in the tragic events that occurred in our home town on Monday. I cannot but say thank you\u2014thank you once, twice, and thrice\u2014and our community is so proud of the way that those individuals responded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve just gotten off the phone, literally only a few minutes ago, to one of the gentlemen who of his own volition\u2014he\u2019s a pilot for one of our local carriers. Of his own volition and the volition of him and his friends\u2014they know Whakaari well. They, like everybody, got the news that she was blowing. They and all their mates jumped into their helicopters and they rushed over to that island and they did what they did, what only heroes can do, which those locals will do and have done. Basically, they lifted and carried and pulled and risked their own lives to ensure that the lives of many others were saved that day, and we as a community know that many lives were saved because of their heroic actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EIn particular, I want to acknowledge that those first responders\u2014particularly some of these guys that just jumped into the helicopters and went over\u2014they were mates with a lot of the tourist guides and the operators that were in a spot of bother, who were also doing all they could do to save lives that day. In particular, I\u2019m thinking of Mark, who was really good mates with another guy called Mark. Mark saw his mate Mark and saw that he wasn\u2019t in a good way. He pulled him into a better place so that he might have a better chance of survival. Now, we don\u2019t know where Mark Inman is at the moment, but we do know that his mate Mark did all he could to put him in the best chance of survival. But my thoughts right now are with Hayden and with all of his family and his brother, Mark. They are an incredibly strong local family, and I know that our whole town is grieving for them, as we are for T\u012Bpene and the boys up the coast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe other component to this tragedy has been the number of people that have been affected from different places, from other countries\u2014a lot from Australia, Great Britain, Canada, Malaysia, and China. I want to put on record just our gratitude to the operators of Royal Caribbean International, from that ship, for the work that they have done to work alongside us to ensure that those victims from that day were looked after. So I just wanted to say thank you to our town for everything they did for the Whakaari recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd91de56ec944c319dc40722830bff0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd91de56ec944c319dc40722830bff0f\u0022\u003EHAMISH WALKER (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I want to talk about the handling of the Lumsden Maternity Centre, which has been an unsafe, life-threatening, unethical, and failed social experiment on Southland mums and babies, which this Government is not prepared to own or fix. There has simply been no accountability, no solution for the mums and babies of Southland. I just want to outline the series of events, and this time line demonstrates the level of incompetence by those who are supposed to be responsible for delivering safe healthcare across Southland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EIn early March 2018, the Lumsden Maternity Centre directors were informed about the closure of their much loved maternity centre. Now, this maternity centre covers an area the same size as Tasman or 1.25 times larger than the size of Taranaki. The closure of this maternity unit puts lives at risk. You only need to look across the Ditch at Queensland when they closed 40 rural maternity unit seven years ago. The Minister this year has reopened them because the infant death rate has increased from six per 1,000 infants to 23 per 1,000. That\u2019s because mothers and babies are dying, especially babies, while trying to get to a maternity birthing unit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EIn mid-April this year, the maternity centre was closed. Now, the much promised maternity hubs were supposed to have critical lifesaving equipment. They simply didn\u2019t. In late May, I wrote to the Minister of Health outlining my grave concerns, saying the community was being left in limbo, that should a baby be born on the side of the road or even the unimaginable happen, it would be blood on the Government\u2019s hands. That\u2019s because basic infrastructure, basic lifesaving equipment was missing. Only a few weeks later, what do you know, a baby was born on the side of the road and the response from the Government the following week: \u201CWe are satisfied with the level of maternity services in Southland and mothers need to plan their births better.\u201D Well, the so-called Wellbeing Government is satisfied that mums in Southland are giving birth in degrading, unsafe, life-threatening circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003EThere have been several other births since then. One of those was a mother travelling from Queenstown to Invercargill. Her midwife had to break into Lumsden as the district health board hadn\u2019t given her instructions on how to get in there. Another mother was forced to be driven at 120 to 130 kph to the closest primary birthing unit because basic drugs were not available. A father had to break the law for the pure survival of his unborn child and the mother of the child\u2019s life. It was minus two degrees, and when they got to the primary birthing centre, that mother was on all fours in the back seat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003ENot only has this Government disregarded the safety of rural mothers and babies, I just want to talk about the social experiment and especially the unethical behaviour conducting this social experiment. The Government\u2019s own list MP Liz Craig, two days after the closure emailed one of her constituent\u2019s concerns that \u201CDespite the DHB announcing that the Lumsden child and maternal hub is operational, unfortunately it\u2019s not.\u201D It goes on to say, \u201CThe medical centre have phoned me and told me that the hub does not exist here yet. Nothing has been signed. There\u2019s no access arrangements for any of the midwives. And how are they supposed to access the hub when there is an emergency?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003ENow, what\u2019s really interesting is that during my petition to the Health Committee to reinstate services, the DHB fronted up and said they knew nothing about these concerns. According to them, it was all operational. Now, if it was operational, why is the Government\u2019s own list MP emailing in these concerns? The Health Minister doesn\u2019t even listen to his own list MP\u2019s concerns. What on earth is the point of him not even listening to that? Now what\u2019s even worse\u2014the select committee, we got to my petition. There were eight people on the select committee: four National, three Labour, one New Zealand First. Now all National MPs voted for an independent investigation. What did the Government MPs do, especially two list MPs from down that way\u2014Liz Craig and Mark Patterson? They voted against it. Now, if they had the interests of the people at heart, they would have voted for an independent investigation and for services at Lumsden to be reinstated. Now, they voted against that. What on earth is the point of being here when you vote against a petition that\u2019s going to hold a DHB to account and you\u2019re basically voting against your own people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003ENational backs rural New Zealand. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve announced if we get back into Government next year, if re-elected, we will reinstate full services at Lumsden Maternity Centre because we\u2019re not going to put the lives of rural Southland mothers at risk for the sake of a few hundred thousand dollars. We will reinstate Lumsden Maternity Centre because we value the lives and put the safety of rural mothers and babies at top of mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022c04865ca30be417aa0fdde33eb186d08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c04865ca30be417aa0fdde33eb186d08\u0022\u003EHon RON MARK (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Anyone who was watching Q\u002BA on Monday night would have been quite astonished. In fact, you would have had quite a giggle. I refer to the interview between Paul Goldsmith and Jack Tame. And it was really enlightening because what did we see? Well, Jack Tame, quite cleverly actually, opened the conversation by telling the public that the Prime Minister had put a line in the sand and that Auckland port was going to move\u2014Ports of Auckland was going to move. And he turned the question straight back to Mr Goldsmith and said, basically, \u201CBut where does the Opposition stand, Paul Goldsmith? Can you do the same?\u201D An interesting reply: \u201CWell, I don\u2019t think we\u2019re in a position to say that right now. We\u2019re open to discussion. If you\u2019re looking ahead, probably a good chance. If you looked out far enough ahead, maybe the port will shift, but there\u2019s a big question and needs an answer.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ETame comes in again, \u201CWhy aren\u2019t we in a position to answer yet?\u201D This is Paul Goldsmith: \u201CWell we haven\u2019t seen the business case. It\u2019s not a small decision.\u201D He said, \u201CIt\u2019s not a small decision.\u201D He\u2019s actually quite correct. It\u2019s not a small decision. It takes people with courage to make big decisions. But he goes on. Jack Tame comes in again: \u201CSo was John Key wrong?\u201D The answer is \u201CHe\u2019s a very smart character, but even John Key is not infallible.\u201D \u201CThen is Nikki Kaye wrong?\u201D\u2014\u201COh.\u201D \u201CThen is Judith Collins wrong?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EYou say, what we had was the man who acts like the little fox terrier worrying the sheep in the paddock, running around here, attacking my colleague Shane Jones, and asking all these really big questions. But he\u2019s really not so much of an Opposition spokesman; he\u2019s more like a worry-wart. He\u2019s not capable of making the big decisions. And he doesn\u2019t seem to understand that for a Government to lead, they have to be bold. They have to be courageous. They have to have vision. A Government needs to look forward. It can\u2019t sit there and say, \u201COh, even though my past leader thought it was a good idea, it\u2019s too big a decision.\u201D You\u2019ve got to have that courage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EAnd what are we seeing from this Government? Well, we\u2019re actually seeing that adventure. We\u2019re actually seeing something that I thought the National Party would be chock-a-block full of: it\u2019s entrepreneurialism, an ability to look ahead and take some risks in order to deliver to the New Zealanders of the future. And this is a Government that actually understands something. It understands you have to be prosperous to meet those infrastructural needs. It understands one has to earn money. This Government understands that the three-legged stool upon which the prosperity of this nation sits is foreign policy, trade, and defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EAnd what has this Government done? Well, it\u2019s invested massively: $740-odd million in new money pumped into foreign affairs. And look at the results. We have the most proactive Minister of Foreign Affairs this country\u2019s ever seen and the most diligent Minister for Trade and Export Growth working in tandem. And I am fortunate enough as the Minister of Defence to work in parallel with them advancing defence diplomacy, underpinning foreign policy, and actually underpinning trade adventurism and trade policy. And what are the results? Well, we\u2019ve already surpassed the last Government\u2019s nine years with enhanced trade agreements and we\u2019ve got more coming. Watch this space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EAnd how do I justify all those statements? Well, look at what we have achieved. Take defence\u2014record defence expenditure in terms of operational funding and capital expenditure: P-8s, $2.3 billion. I\u2019ve heard some people say, \u201CHow does that help New Zealand?\u201D Well, apart from the foreign policy stuff and how that enhances our trade engagements, actually when one looks at the $2.34 billion worth of investment in P-8s, half of that is being invested back into the economy. The Manawat\u016B economy will be better off for $400 million pumped back into its economy. Actually, it\u2019s about $1.2 billion is going to be invested in New Zealand, but Manawat\u016B is going to benefit directly: 300 extra labourers; extra people working on site; a $65 million contract given out already to Fulton Hogan; a $200 million contract coming down the line to build all the infrastructure, the hangars, the facilities, everything that goes with it. And I haven\u2019t even talked about the $103 million for Manawanui and the NH90s and the frigate systems upgrade and the protected mobility and Oryx. I\u2019m yet to talk about the Hercs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThis Government is going to go down in history, despite Mr Goldsmith\u2019s worry-wart behaviour, as having invested massively in the future of New Zealand through massive infrastructure and benefits, through massive defence expenditure and budgets. And I think that is the sort of entrepreneurialism, that\u2019s the sort of leadership, that\u2019s the sort of vision that will carry this country forward as opposed to what we witnessed over the last nine years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00229eb62919ede04852a1e86b9073fdfac9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229eb62919ede04852a1e86b9073fdfac9\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E For those of us that live in the Bay of Plenty and those of us that live by the sea, Whakaari is a part of who we are. When you get up in the morning, you look out the window, you have a look to see how much smoke\u2019s coming from it. It is just a part of our lives and it changes every day. It is an active volcano and she never lets you forget that. And there\u2019s no doubt that over the last few days in the Bay of Plenty, we\u2019ve come to realise how much of our being is related to that volcano. So when she let us know with no doubt on Monday afternoon that she was active, it took us all by surprise and shocked us at the violence of it because she talks to us all the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EBut this was different, and so I want to take this opportunity today to acknowledge some outstanding people in the community who made extraordinary efforts at the risk of their own lives: a couple of helicopter pilots who knew that they were taking themselves into an area that was full of fumes, full of ash, and that their lives would be at risk, but they went in anyway to make sure that they got as many people off that were they were able to do so. Skippers of a couple of the boats from White Island Tours and the passengers that were on one of those, who had already left and were safe, made the decision to go back in order to get people off. A helicopter pilot who was on the island said to his passengers, \u201CWe\u2019re going to jump in the sea. Follow me.\u201D and jumped in the sea. Only two of his passengers did that, and, of course, the blast went over the top of their heads. The other two who were perhaps slower or were questioning it didn\u2019t, and, of course, suffered the consequences. So those are extraordinary heroes and should be recognised as such. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EBut there were many, many more in the community that deserve to be acknowledged as heroes. There were the staff of White Island Tours themselves who helped those survivors off the boats, had to deal with just horrific injuries to people, and dealt with them with kindness and concern and care, despite knowing that they had lost some of their own. The survivors on the boats who agreed to go back\u2014but also then we\u2019re hearing stories of how they helped some of those that were in terrible, terrible circumstances while they were being taken back to shore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe St Johns Ambulance Service people who gathered from all around the Bay of Plenty and all around the area, and, of course, the Whakat\u0101ne Hospital staff. It has been described as a war zone\u2014they are just a provincial hospital, they do not have the specialists there that may well be used to seeing some of these injuries. The staff, again, dealt with those people with care and kindness and aroha\u2014is the best way to describe it\u2014and did an extraordinary job. The Whakat\u0101ne District Council and the staff there\u2014unfortunately, they are so used to dealing with emergencies, they swung into action. In fact, just a week ago they lodged, with our civil defence, a plan as to what to do if there had been a volcanic eruption, and so they were able to swing straight into action. They\u2019re a well-oiled team, having honed their skills through several disasters over the last decade. Lastly, but by no means least, we must acknowledge Ng\u0101ti Awa. What an amazing iwi they are. They just opened their arms, opened their marae, and they encircled visitors, locals, and families with that love and concern and service that only an iwi like that can bring. They deserve to be acknowledged for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, sitting in the seat there today\u2014I know that the Speaker can\u2019t be brought into the debate, but so many of my colleagues across the House have expressed their concern for the three local MPs and for the people of the Bay of Plenty that have suffered\u2014losing faith, a little bit, in that fantastic Whakaari and suffering through the tragedy\u2014and I thank them all for that. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022408fa3fc18164ac79446f24a0deb1ecc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022408fa3fc18164ac79446f24a0deb1ecc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019d normally have one more speech now but those who have indicated that they were going to speak have all spoken, and, therefore, I propose to conclude the general debate now. I also want to acknowledge and place on record my thanks for the four members who have been in the area and have made a contribution to this debate today, both for what they have done up there\u2014which has been absolutely fantastic, it\u2019s been reported back to me\u2014and for their contributions to letting members know privately on things which would not be appropriate to share, and their contributions to the House today. Thank you all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002282c0b0c0cdbe4ab8adc30b5e04dfdc76\u0022\u003EVenture Capital Fund Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002282c0b0c0cdbe4ab8adc30b5e04dfdc76\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3e68abc7c2b422a902dac24799b8e66\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3bbc0179cfd463c9d50634364dd3ab2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3bbc0179cfd463c9d50634364dd3ab2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Venture Capital Fund Bill and the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ECan I also pass on my thanks, as Mr Speaker has already, to the prior speakers, and also give my best regards to those who are adversely affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis bill puts in place a key element of the Wellbeing Budget economic package. I\u2019ve said earlier in the debate on this bill that I think the timing of this is very important. The world is in the midst of this technological revolution which is born of this confluence of affordable computing power, mobile positioning systems, sensors, robotics, big data and the internet of things, artificial intelligence, and, I\u2019d add to that, a better understanding of genetics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe know that the enormity of these changes is such that Governments around the world, including in New Zealand, are having to deal with the challenges that this throws up. We do that in New Zealand under the banner of the future of work. The fact that we\u2019ve got to have a separate programme for that in Government shows the enormity of the change on the way. I think the estimate from McKinsey is that in the next 20 to 30 years about 60 percent of the jobs in New Zealand could theoretically be automated and that, in reality, around 30 percent will be. The enormity of that change, I think, measures the size of the opportunity, because the flipside of the challenge is the enormous business opportunity that arises from these opportunities to improve the efficiency of existing methods of production or the opportunities to commercialise new products and services that are born of this revolution. I think it\u2019s the duty of every Government in the world to do their utmost to get their share of the upside in the world, and in New Zealand the Government thinks that we should be doing that so that we can harness those opportunities and obtain these new high-value jobs and the export value that this creates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe know that too many of our high-growth, early-stage companies struggle to access capital. Some of them are well funded, but the conversion rate of our early-stage ventures to high-growth companies is lower than international countries that we compare ourselves to. We think this is in no small part caused by a shortage of available capital in series A and B capital rounds. Earlier in the growth of these new tech companies, they had good support from the seed capital part of the market. In part, that\u2019s been brought about by the Seed Co-investment Fund, which is another fund run by the Venture Investment Fund directors\u2014that in itself has been supported by Government intervention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI think we should reflect on how well we\u2019re doing as a country in this area of the economy. If you go back 20 years, we didn\u2019t have this sort of economy to any great extent. Of course, we had Gallagher group and other technology companies like Fisher \u0026amp; Paykel Healthcare\u2014they had already started their journey\u2014but this ecosystem was a lot smaller. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe prior Labour Government, under Helen Clark, held the knowledge wave conference, and there was general agreement that we needed to lift the diversity and value of what it is that we were offering to the rest of the world, and they identified the need for some interventions. They chose three sectors, in particular: creative sectors, biotechnology, and information and communication technology\u2014ICT. They chose the right three sectors. The subsequent National Government morphed the biotech more towards food and beverage, and I think that was a wise thing to do. As a consequence, these technology exports are now one of our highest growing export centres\u2014third after primary products and tourism. We can do even better if we get this ecosystem working better at the series A and series B capital funds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThree hundred million dollars is going into the fund over time. This will be leveraged by investments from the private sector so that the amount that is going into these early stage ventures will be more than $300 million. We\u2019re trying to build the capability in the sector at the same time as we better capitalise the companies that are going to have investments made in them. We think that we are going to help develop the domestic and international networks that we need, and that alongside the R \u0026amp; D tax credit, the ring-fencing of losses, and extending the brightline test this is another part of the Government\u2019s economic package that really is helping weight investment towards the productive sectors in a way that we think is going to lift economic performance and productivity more broadly across the economy. It does that in part because these companies also have the effect of enabling diffusion of technology more broadly across the economy in a way that lifts productivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne of the complaints I\u2019ve heard from the Opposition is the relative performance of our export sector compared with domestic consumption. They point that out as if it is a bad thing; actually, I think it\u2019s a good thing. We\u2019ve had an economy that for too long has been weighted upon consumption, which has had its underpinnings in high rates of immigration, in gendered population growth, and in a house property price bubble that has made people feel wealthy, and, therefore, they have consumed their equity in their houses. It does take a while to rebalance the economy towards an export-led recovery, but we\u2019re actually doing that. Exports as a percentage of GDP are on the way up and we are seeing a balance away from an excessive reliance on speculative investment in the housing sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256d79eaba65741da8d03021b772fd2b0\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Really? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c6fa9d2c2b5451585e274d8c0e3af1b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we are; the stats show that most clearly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, in respect of the framework for governance here, we have the Guardians of New Zealand Superannuation helping set up the structures which lead to the choice of private sector venture capitalists who run the funds that invest the money in the companies that we want to grow. The Venture Investment Fund administers that on a day-to-day basis on behalf of the Guardians, so I think we\u2019re using the capability that we\u2019ve got in the sector to best effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere is a policy statement that can be changed from time to time and that\u2019s intended to get the balance right between international involvement and local providers. We actually need both, but we don\u2019t want it to become completely dominated by overseas participants, because we are wanting to build the New Zealand ecosystem, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe second to last point I would make would be to respond to a complaint that was made by the National Party during the second reading, which was complaining that this money\u2019s coming via money that would otherwise have gone to the New Zealand Superannuation Fund for them to invest directly. I would point out the hollowness of that criticism, given that in their nine years of Government, they made no contributions to the Superannuation Fund. They actually gathered $5 billion in tax from the Superannuation Fund, but made no contribution to it. We, of course, are making contributions of around $2 billion per annum, and we are building the Superannuation Fund at the same time as we think it\u2019s appropriate to divert some of the money into this fund. We think, as a consequence, that the productivity of New Zealand will grow and that we will have higher export earnings, higher wages, and interesting jobs for people to go to. This is one way we can futureproof our economy in respect of these changes that are coming from those technologies that I mentioned at the start. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ELastly, can I thank Government officials for the work that they have put into this. Can I thank the Finance and Expenditure Committee. It\u2019s good that we\u2019ve got almost universal support for this bill in the House. Can I thank the many participants from the private sector, who have already\u2014even before we announced this policy\u2014given us advice as to how we might best structure this, and I think we\u2019ve struck on an outcome which will prove to be a wise investment for the country. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00228e31e6262cbb4a93b3ba3755a78f1d5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e31e6262cbb4a93b3ba3755a78f1d5d\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be talking in the third reading of the Venture Capital Fund Bill. As we\u2019ve flagged before, National will be supporting this bill, although there are elements of it that we still do have concerns about. But we do need a bill like this because we need a venture capital industry that is more sustainable. When you look at the context of New Zealand, we\u2019ve got an economy that is starting to slip backwards quite rapidly, with a decline in GDP by 1 percent, or roughly $3 billion a year of lost opportunity; we\u2019ve got high levels of people now on the dole\u2014over 22,000\u2014and we have seen a decline in the number of new jobs being created, from a high under National of 10,000 per month, which is now down nearer to about 3,000 per month, and that\u2019s just lost opportunity for people to be involved, to be gainfully employed, and to be earning more money. Also, we\u2019re now seeing two years of a flat economy, largely because the investment community and the mums and dads that own the hundreds of thousands of small businesses around New Zealand are worried about the situation. They\u2019re worried about the New Zealand situation, where things are just not going ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWe hear all these excuses\u2014and, again, we\u2019ve just heard Minister David Parker talking about international trade winds\u2014which really, on the face of it, don\u2019t stack up, because exports are at a record high because of incredible terms of trade. So that\u2019s not the situation. The situation why we\u2019ve got declining GDP and declining incomes for New Zealanders is because of what\u2019s going on here with Government policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut this Venture Capital Fund is a way of dealing with what people term the valley of death in investment circles. You have the seed capital, which is the very first stage; then you have the venture capital; and then you have private equity, before you move on to traditional banking arrangements which help fund and turbocharge our businesses. So this is a way of dealing with that valley of death\u2014that second stage\u2014where people, who are often young people, invest their time and a lot of their money, and often their family\u2019s money, to try and start up these new businesses that in the end, ultimately, sometimes achieve great things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThere have been many examples in New Zealand, but they\u2019re not always that numerous. But the ones we have seen have been fantastic: Rocket Lab, LanzaTech, and, if we go back in time, a whole raft of ones which have come out of a huge amount of work and have come out of people taking risk. They\u2019ve been prepared to invest their time, to not take full salaries, to borrow money from friends and family, and for the friends and family to back them, even though they know there\u2019s often little chance that they\u2019re going to be successful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo this bill creates an opportunity to amass $300 million, with $240 million coming from the New Zealand Superannuation Fund and $60 million from the New Zealand Venture Investment Fund, and that is an element of trying to make the venture capital industry more sustainable. So that is the first issue. The first issue is that the Government can put up money, but the most important thing is that we end up with a more sustainable industry, and that means that we have the New Zealand venture capital scene being prepared to continue to invest, alongside this fund, and to make sure that it achieves a recycling over time and that people find the confidence to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOne of the interesting things is that the terms of this Venture Capital Fund, in terms of the Guardians of New Zealand Superannuation\u2014who will be overseeing it\u2014could, theoretically, be achieved by using just the international players that would be involved in it, and that, in itself, would be highly disappointing. A number of the submitters, including Lance Wiggins and a number of other people highly involved in venture capital firms in the sector in New Zealand, suggested there needed to be much more clarity around the purpose of this Venture Capital Fund, and that is an ongoing issue that we are concerned about. But the ultimate aim must be to ensure a more sustainable venture capital industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other thing that\u2019s really intriguing\u2014and I\u2019ve noted this before\u2014is that I\u2019ve never found an example, and I\u2019ve never even heard of an example, where you set up a fund like this, with $300 million, and you do not set a required rate of return or a financial target to achieve, because what that means is that you can invest in these businesses and you\u2019re not worried about what sort of level of profitability you achieve, and, ultimately, whether, in fact, you get your money back. That is all part of that recycling I talked about, and it is incredibly unusual for a fund to be set up on these grounds, with no targeted return. That I find very perturbing, when you\u2019re talking about $300 million that we\u2019re spending of taxpayers\u2019 money on this particular part of the sector, which is a highly risky part of the investment cycle. I think this is an oversight and it shows a lack of commerciality of the Ministers overseeing this particular proposal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other one is that there\u2019s no clarity around the nature of investments, so what type of investments should the fund be investing in? That is a really important thing, particularly where you\u2019re trying to grow New Zealand\u2019s economic activity and trying to grow a minnow into a giant through the venture capital process. I think that lack of clarity is a worrying thing, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other aspect that\u2019s come to light is that this particular fund will be required to pay tax, yet, at the same time, the Provincial Growth Fund run by the Hon Shane Jones and the new green fund that the Greens were very keen to have set up both have tax-exempt entities. So I\u2019m not quite sure of the justification why this one should be paying tax, particularly when you\u2019ve got no financial objectives for it. It\u2019s incongruous and inconsistent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThese are some of the issues that we\u2019re worried about. Then, more recently, we\u2019ve had some extensions of what the Guardians of New Zealand Superannuation, who are going to be managing this fund, are going to have to meet in terms of overall objectives, and they are set out in clauses 32 and 56, which mean that the Minister can now interpose himself\u2014at the moment\u2014in terms of what the guardians report about the Venture Capital Fund in their annual reporting cycle and, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EMore importantly, they require the guardians to have regard for the wider objectives of the Government, particularly around taking into account all the aspects of government and making it a more inclusive Government. I would say to you that this is blurring of the objectives of what otherwise should be a very clear objective\u2014namely, to invest in New Zealand businesses, to help and promote them, to make sure we get at least our money back and, hopefully, make a return on it so that we can create a successful venture capital industry in New Zealand. It should be crystal clear, yet under this legislation and under this Minister, it is very, very blurred, and, I think, possibly the words the Minister just spoke\u2014about being sure this is going to be a very successful entity\u2014may in time come back to haunt the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWith all those issues that we\u2019ve raised, none the less we will be supporting it. There are other aspects we have raised about it, but in the main I hope we will have the opportunity to clarify its objectives in time, when, hopefully, we come back into Government, because this does need some clarification. But in terms of the general intent of it, we do support that and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae5e71dfd6f245e89b063d467a7cc032\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae5e71dfd6f245e89b063d467a7cc032\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, he is often verbose, but I still like him\u2014Andrew Bayly, the member who was just speaking across the House. I think that the 10 minutes it took him to say they agree with what this side of the House is doing, and that they are going to support the bill, is probably far too long to say exactly that. So in light of the remarks that have been said, it is a privilege to support and commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00220e026a35ad44458f9ba549e5a7fb81f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e026a35ad44458f9ba549e5a7fb81f9\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E As my colleague Andrew Bayly said, we will support the legislation, principally because there is a need for more venture capital in New Zealand\u2014that\u2019s accepted. But what drove me to be very supportive of the legislation is that I went through Budget 2019, and you go through the Budget and this is the only piece of legislation, the only idea the Government came up with, that could be described as business-friendly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297d17ba1482b4d7a88b4a15b062f7321\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b245afc70a8644b8bd7f3d0c1fc749c0\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Somebody interrupted, \u201CRubbish.\u201D Well, I\u2019ll let that member stand to their feet and take the next call and give me the second business-friendly announcement that was in the Budget, because that member won\u2019t be able to find it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWhat we have got is a Government that for two years has been completely anti-business to the extent that we\u2019ve now got business confidence as low as we have ever seen it in this country. I\u2019ve been saying to the Government, on many occasions when I have the privilege of speaking in this House, that that lack of business confidence will lead to lower growth for the economy. Various economic \u201Cexperts\u201D\u2014and I say \u201Cexperts\u201D with inverted commas\u2014on the other side of the House said that was rubbish, and yet we\u2019ve got proof out today with the latest Treasury forecasts. They were optimistically forecasting GDP growth at 3 percent. They\u2019ve now revised that to 2.2 percent, and I still suggest to Treasury that they are probably over optimistic at 2.2 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWhat that means is we\u2019ve now got a Government that had been forecasting a substantial Budget surplus now having to acknowledge Treasury\u2019s forecast of the economy going backwards to the extent that we now face a Budget deficit of $1 billion for the year ending June 2020. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eb234e1c2ff4912a2ffc33e9d35931e\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Shocking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfc91ac93c664955be4e2c1988f1a5bc\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re now in the vicinity of a $1 billion Budget deficit. Well, my colleague, my friend, Amy Adams said that\u2019s shocking, but we shouldn\u2019t be surprised because this is just par for the course for Labour Governments. They inherit an economy that is well-established, well set up\u2014and they were forecasting, as they took over from National after the election of 2017, a sea of Budget surpluses. The economy was in good shape. And what they\u2019ve done is, sadly but almost immediately, in two years, take it from surplus to deficits because of wasteful expenditure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo when we look through the Budget and we find the Venture Capital Fund being announced\u2014$300 million to give some boost to New Zealand businesses\u2014I\u2019m supportive of that. But I do want to point out that looking at the $300 million figure, even that was a case of figures by mirrors. There is no new money for this bill. What they\u2019re doing is they\u2019re directing the New Zealand Superannuation Fund to make available $240 million, and they\u2019re directing the New Zealand Venture Investment Fund to make available $60 million. Those two figures add up to the amount being available for the venture capital bill of $300. So, again, it is mirrors and trickery by the Minister of Finance. There is no new money at all, and you wouldn\u2019t expect it from a Government that is so anti-business, so prepared to let business confidence slide to the level that it has recently to the announcement today from Treasury, forcing Mr Grant Robertson to come up with a raft of glowing announcements of $12 billion of infrastructure, and I guarantee we won\u2019t see any of them ready for starting construction before election 2020. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019ve got is a Government full of rhetoric. It\u2019s been full of rhetoric from day one but it fails to deliver. This piece of legislation will be of benefit to business, but it shouldn\u2019t be confused\u2014it shouldn\u2019t be sold as $300 million of a new initiative. It is simply the reclassification of two other appropriations. But at least, finally\u2014at least, finally\u2014we have a Budget announcement in the last Budget that showed some friendliness to business, and business will grab, I hope, the opportunity, although if I was a businessperson with an entrepreneurial idea, the first thing I\u2019d be thinking about is, \u201CWhat else will the Government come up with that\u2019s completely anti-business?\u201D\u2014and therefore would I have the confidence even to apply to the Venture Capital Fund? Would people have the confidence to apply to the fund, to take their entrepreneurial idea out of that valley of death scenario that most entrepreneurs find, and take it into a situation where, with the borrowing of extra money, they can mature their entrepreneurial idea and take it to a sustainable business that may or may not be so successful that it even stays in New Zealand or goes elsewhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo while National does support the Venture Capital Fund Bill, it\u2019s not without reservation. We support it because at last we\u2019ve seen the Government come up with something that shows it understands a little bit of business. But in the raft of other anti-business pieces of legislation that have been advanced from the start of this Government\u2019s tenure, it is not surprising that business confidence is as low as it\u2019s ever been. It\u2019s not surprising that today Treasury has revised its growth figures and revised the Budget outlook, and I think it\u2019s a very sad day where within two years of a Labour Government we\u2019re seeing their old habits come to the fore\u2014a Government now forecasting deficits into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3275c7c43454fd4b36cf1c684031309\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3275c7c43454fd4b36cf1c684031309\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support enthusiastically this Venture Capital Fund Bill, as we seek to broaden the New Zealand economy and transform it and address some of the long-term challenges. And, of course, one of those challenges has been productivity. We simply have been lagging in the comparators on productivity. One only has to look out\u2014like I do\u2014my office window on to the wharves and see those unprocessed logs sitting out there, which is a completely lost opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWe know that one of the issues that we\u2019re dealing with is a historical long-term underinvestment in R \u0026amp; D, and we know the correlation between R \u0026amp; D spending as a percentage of GDP and actual wealth, and we are, as a Government, aiming to get that up to 2 percent, up from less than 1.5 now. We know that countries like Denmark, that we might like to compare ourselves with, are up around 4. So we have a ways to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ETo the member opposite who just resumed his seat, David Carter, I say I know he\u2019s a retiring member\u2014that\u2019s coming up\u2014and it seems to me that he must have checked out early because he\u2019s missed a plethora of announcements that the Government has made to address some of these long-term challenges. There is $1.25 billion in R \u0026amp; D tax credits; the massive infrastructure boost that was announced today by Minister Robertson; that $12 billion above what was already in the pipeline. The Provincial Growth Fund, that $3 billion behemoth that\u2019s investing in our provinces, up from\u2014I think the previous Government\u2019s budget was $11 million a year for that sort of initiative; a massive ramping up, a hundredfold ramping up of investments into our provinces. The extension of the brightline test to take the weighting away from property speculation. The restarting of payments into the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, which actually gives us the capacity to bring this bill forward today and which was shamefully stopped. The opportunity cost to the New Zealand public of doing that was circa $20 billion, I understand. And, of course, we\u2019ve got a significant ramping up of the trade deals under Minister Parker and Foreign Minister Peters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got the EU trade deal under way, the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership deal progressing, we\u2019ve got a significant upgrade to the China trade deal just announced, we\u2019ve got pending deals with the UK when it\u2019s able to get into negotiations with us, and, of course, at a political level, we\u2019ve got an agreement with the US to start proceedings around a trade deal with the world\u2019s biggest economy. So there is an enormous amount that this Government has done to rebalance the New Zealand economy and put it on a more sustainable footing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EIn terms of this Venture Capital Fund, it is designed to fill a gap. There is a gap. There does seem to be money available for start-ups, and that ecosystem has developed, but there is a gap between businesses that get to that sort of $2 million to $20 million turnover. This bill does seek to target specifically those businesses. There does seem to be some market failure there. There\u2019s been a complete dearth of listings on the NZX of late\u2014I think only two for this calendar year\u2014so the Government is putting its shoulder to the wheel there. What is happening is instead of developing in New Zealand and turning into significant businesses that are in the billions of dollars, we are selling these opportunities off to overseas companies at an early stage because of this lack of capital. Of course, we\u2019ve seen banks tightening their criteria, particularly into the farming sector, and I think that\u2019s probably across the economy as they seek to pull back their exposure a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo this Venture Capital Fund does seek to plug those gaps. It will leverage private sector equity coming in. It will lead to a more balanced New Zealand economy which has the ability to reach the potential that we all know that it has. So New Zealand First are very enthusiastic supporters of this bill. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00229b2b88ec595e4313a3010a8d57c94eaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b2b88ec595e4313a3010a8d57c94eaf\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to take a brief call in this third reading on the Venture Capital Fund Bill. It\u2019s been a little while since I sat on the Finance and Expenditure Committee, but I was a member of that committee at the early stages of the bill, and, as my colleague the Rt Hon David Carter said in his excellent contribution, we are going to support this legislation because we do see it as something that will assist business in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EUnlike most of the members opposite, National understands that any Government can spend; actually, what marks a good Government from an average Government is a Government that understands how hard the businesses and the people of New Zealand have to work to earn that money. It seems very clear to us that we now have a Government that has completely dropped the ball on thinking about how it can best support business to actually earn the money, create the jobs, and pay the taxes that give Governments the ability to make any investments. You can talk all you like about investing in infrastructure or housing or health or education, and all of the other things that are necessary; if the money isn\u2019t being earned, there is nothing to spend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ENational will support the bill because we do see it as the only tangible business-supporting initiative to come out of the Budget, and for that reason alone it is worth supporting. However, and again, as my colleagues have said, it shouldn\u2019t be mistaken for what I have heard it portrayed as by this Government. It shouldn\u2019t be mistaken as an investment into business, because there is no new money going in. The Government has taken money from the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, taken money that has been contributed to pay for future superannuation and carved a bit of that off to put into business so they can pretend that they have invested in business. Now, the money to business is real, but it isn\u2019t new. It has been taken from Peter to pay Paul. So let\u2019s not kid ourselves that this is the Government actually choosing to invest any of the surpluses they were left in supporting business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EIt also shouldn\u2019t be taken as being a panacea for what is a deeply, deeply weak sentiment of business confidence in this country and a rapidly slowing private sector economy. Now, we\u2019re seeing already from this Government very clear signs and the ghost of Michael Cullen coming back to haunt us once more. Well, when the private sector is going backward at the rate of knots, the Government borrows and spends to create activity to try and make it look as if the economy is good. You cannot build a future on Government spending. The only sustainable economic growth is economic growth that comes from the private sector. Borrowing and spending is a band-aid on a system that is slowing very fast. So that\u2019s what they\u2019re doing, and we should not pretend that this Venture Capital Fund Bill is going to reverse that deeply worrying trend that has been gripping this country\u2019s economy for the last 18 months to two years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EIn fact, just last night, members of the National caucus met with a major New Zealand business, a significant employer, who told us that while they have been growing steadily in New Zealand for most of the last decade, \u201Cthe last\u201D\u2014and I quote them\u2014\u201C18 months have been the hardest they have experienced for many, many years.\u201D, worse than the global financial crisis, worse than the periods through the earthquakes and other hard financial times we\u2019ve had. The last 18 months under this Government have been the worst they have had, and this is a business that employs thousands and thousands of workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ll support the bill because it is a step in the right direction, but this is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a solution to the crisis of business confidence, the failure of the private sector economy, that this Government is causing in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4575b377f8d4c9cbcda03c9d977a37b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4575b377f8d4c9cbcda03c9d977a37b\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green):\u003C/span\u003E E Te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e Te Whare. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on behalf of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand to speak to this Venture Capital Fund Bill. As many have spoken about their experiences pertaining to the content and intention of this legislation in their contributions so far, I feel it probably only makes sense for me to refer to, as many of the former National Party speakers actually have, the former National Government. My father was moving house recently, and we found a pile of letters and notes and other paraphernalia that I had had in my room as a child. One of those things that I found in that cabinet was a letter that I wrote to the Rt Hon John Key as a 13-year-old. I wrote a letter to Sir John Key asking for him to invest in my idea for a car that ran on magnets. There wasn\u2019t a whole lot more thinking behind it, but at that point in time what I was concerned about was that we were moving towards a clean, green economy. So if there\u2019s a more earnest Green Party opening to a speech, I don\u2019t know where you can find one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had the Rt Hon David Carter referring to where we\u2019re going to find some sense of whether this Government is business-friendly or not, and I really want to unpack that statement, because what on earth does that actually mean? We bandy around words like that in this place all the time, and it is so disconnected from the reality of the so-called everyday New Zealanders that the Opposition likes to speak about so frequently. Talking about being business-friendly, I genuinely believe, if you look to the core root of it, puts the cart before the horse. Surely, the point of Government, the point of the State, the point of a House of Representatives, is to be people- and society-friendly. Business is the means to help achieve that, but increasing the size of business is not an end unto itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why I think it\u2019s really important that we note, in responding to the contributions from members of the National Party, that such thinking leads to an absolute perversity in ideology, because growth and prosperity are two separate things, as we all know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI actually, most recently, sat on a panel with the Hon Paul Goldsmith at the University of Auckland where we were talking about how GDP is not the sole measure of wellbeing for a society. He himself and the National Party say that they believe that there need to be broader measures of the economy and how well it is doing. That is why we need to recognise that simply talking about growing the pie, simply talking about growing the economy, can lead to perversities such as not recognising that GDP, that growth, unto itself doesn\u2019t recognise or tell the story of the distribution of wealth, nor the quality of transactions that lead to that growth or that GDP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis is where there\u2019s a really great example, actually, which is something which I\u2019ll allude to and then reference explicitly within this legislation. That\u2019s the story of green energy. If you actually follow the investment pathway for something like solar panels, for example, that initial transaction\u2014that purchase and installing of solar panels\u2014contributes to GDP. To begin with, it contributes to growth. But as soon as you have installed those solar panels and you, as a family or an individual or a household, have that sovereignty over your energy, you are no longer plugged into the grid and therefore no longer paying for that electricity, and therefore your clean, green energy, which is good for the planet, is good for reducing carbon emissions, is no longer contributing to GDP growth. That is just one of the many examples of the divergence between prosperity of society and of us as Aotearoa New Zealand and GDP growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWhich brings me, to\u2014I believe it\u2019s clause 36 or 35\u2014clause 35(4)(c) in the Venture Capital Fund Bill. This is really important because it speaks about the directions that the Guardians of New Zealand Superannuation must have regard to when they are utilising this $300 million Venture Capital Fund. That is that they must have a regard to the Government\u2019s commitment to a low-emissions economy and, in paragraph (ca), the Government\u2019s commitment to an inclusive economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI would, however, note that this doesn\u2019t quite go far enough for where the Greens would like it to be. But this is something that I believe that, with the contributions of our co-leader and our economic spokesperson, the Hon James Shaw, has contributed to that discussion across the three parties in this Government to help get that in there. I would, however, note the contributions of New Zealand First in making sure that we do have a more human face to our economy in particular\u2014and that being the parallels, or the Venn diagram as to what makes this Government work with regard to that commitment to an inclusive economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo this doesn\u2019t go far enough, because it allows for, for example, the opening of a window where there is perchance, in some distant future, an oscillation of Government and other parties find themselves in charge of the reins of this country, and we may end up with an unfortunate situation like what we\u2019re presently seeing with the State-sanctioned investment in fossil fuels under ACC at present\u2014that billion dollars which is presently invested in those fossil fuels. It is quite simple. As we all know, every Parliament is sovereign unto itself to change those directions, which any Government may give. But, nonetheless, as many of those who\u2019ve contributed so far to the debate have highlighted, this fills an important gap in our economy in Aotearoa New Zealand. This legislation, this Venture Capital Fund Bill, as administered by the Guardians of New Zealand Superannuation, in opening it up and enabling, but also directing and channelling that $300 million directly into businesses\u2014particularly, hopefully, small businesses\u2014in this country is really crucial to helping those mums and dads that the National Party so often invoke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBut, in wrapping up my conclusion, I\u2019d just like to say that it\u2019s really critical that we end up continuing to move towards that clean, green economy and recognising the distinction between simple GDP growth, which we all now on the record explicitly recognise as not the sole measure of the wellbeing of our society and our prosperity. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221597e08e38e3422ba7c6c109e2858900\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022996d66f1ebbb474381c5d68b169d0b1c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u00226e1f1abe4a5b41c8a614a8b18fd18737\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e1f1abe4a5b41c8a614a8b18fd18737\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to correct an answer given during question time today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022158159bca7914d9daf1309735dad41d4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d77b8a23f1d4a279fc43ac2c7f766d3\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to a supplementary question to question No. 12 today, I answered that the Government has invested an extra $5.9 million into early intervention. It is actually $51.9 million the Government has invested in early intervention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c932d2a66c7a440fb6115bb650b6174e\u0022\u003EVenture Capital Fund Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c932d2a66c7a440fb6115bb650b6174e\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002273349a736a734f1faf22e24f215d29a8\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000347\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd2a5351e7774bcd9d04ff5fcda28354\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd2a5351e7774bcd9d04ff5fcda28354\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my pleasure to speak on this Venture Capital Fund Bill. If you look back at the Budget this year, 2019, this is the only measure that could be arguably, possibly described as a pro-growth policy. Everything else was just extra spending, but you could argue this one. We intervene in the New Zealand economy to invest a lot in terms of the production of scientific ideas and innovation. We spend about $1.5 billion a year on science more broadly. We generate a lot of ideas through the university system. But, as a country, we\u2019re relatively unsuccessful at translating ideas into successful large companies. There\u2019s a few that go, and the private sector develops those very well. So the question is: is there a shortage or a limiting factor in the shortage of capital available for what\u2019s called series A and B funding rounds for the development of new companies in the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThere is an argument that there is a difficulty in accessing that funding, and so this fund\u2014which puts $300 million of taxpayers\u2019 money into a fund to co-invest in such companies\u2014we think is something that could make a difference if it\u2019s done very well. So we\u2019re prepared to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI suppose the broader point that I\u2019d make, however, is that it\u2019s part of a wider Government economic policy which has been failing this country. If we look back at the situation we\u2019ve got ourselves in today, we\u2019ve got a Government that inherited a rapidly growing economy with surpluses as far as the eye could see and, within two short years, has turned that into a slowly growing economy in deficit. That transformation is remarkable. The absence of any clear economic growth strategy from this Government\u2014we\u2019re starting to reap the whirlwind of that in very short order. I don\u2019t think anybody would have predicted that the turnaround could be as quick as what we\u2019ve seen today: two broken promises in terms of the debt and also going into deficit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhen I look at Budget 2020, which follows on from the Budget that brought in this venture capital bill, when you look at the priorities\u2014just transition, a future of work, M\u0101ori and Pasifika, child wellbeing, and mental wellbeing\u2014they\u2019re all very worthy, but there is nothing about growing the economy and nothing about economic growth. That\u2019s what\u2019s missing from so much of what this Government is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWith the previous speaker, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, you\u2019ve talked about saying that growth isn\u2019t everything. Of course it\u2019s not everything. People\u2019s happiness in life is related to family relationships, the quality of our environment, and a whole host of things. The economy is not everything, but it\u2019s important. If growth is slowing, that\u2019s fewer opportunities for New Zealanders to look after themselves and their families, to spend on quality investment and healthcare and all those sorts of things that we like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThis Venture Capital Fund may, if it\u2019s well organised and well operated and well run, make it easier for start-up New Zealand companies to get access to capital to grow in early stages. We hope that some of them will succeed. Many of them won\u2019t\u2014that\u2019s the nature of venture capital. So we\u2019ll be watching with great interest as to how this develops. But, if you are serious about growing the economy more broadly, this is by no means the most important thing. It\u2019s about getting the basic settings right for the economy that can restore confidence so that people will invest generally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhy investment generally has been drying up in this economy is particularly in relation to three things, really. The Government has driven up costs significantly right across the industrial relations space. Secondly, it\u2019s created an enormous amount of policy uncertainty in every, every angle that you look at. And, thirdly, it\u2019s demonstrated rank incompetence in the way that it carried out KiwiBuild and particularly infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve heard big announcements today about infrastructure, but for two years this Government has done very, very little indeed. So the slow tram has still not started down Dominion Road, and it never will. So that\u2019s what\u2019s making people nervous about things. So National supports this bill but we do make the point that if you really want to grow the economy, there is a lot of other things that need to be done. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u00229c0c65bd8567492496aee768789b63c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c0c65bd8567492496aee768789b63c5\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s an absolute pleasure to stand and speak to the Venture Capital Fund Bill. I think this bill is going to have a huge impact and significantly help grow the New Zealand economy, so I have no hesitation in commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022 data-id=\u0022854bf50c1ab44517b5e4c71a55ba6a6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022854bf50c1ab44517b5e4c71a55ba6a6a\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my pleasure to take a brief call on the third reading of the Venture Capital Fund Bill. I do reflect on what the previous speaker and our finance spokesperson have said. This was really the only positive growth item in the Budget, and National is supporting it. Three hundred million towards a venture capital growth fund is a good thing to do, but, as the Hon Paul Goldsmith said, the real question is how it\u2019s spent and the efficiency of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EI\u2019d put that against some of the stats we\u2019re seeing. Even today, some stats were revealed that show that the economy is not doing as well as it was. When this Government came into power, job growth was 10,000 a month. It\u2019s now down to 3,000. GDP growth is now down to 2.1 percent\u20142.1 percent. But at the end of the day, there are some things that can be done for businesses as they transition in a growth phase, and as they go from a small company to a larger company. If we don\u2019t want them to go offshore, then there is an ability to help. Three hundred million sounds like a lot of money, and it is; 220-odd million is coming from the super fund; 80 million is pretty much a new investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EWe have raised some issues about how, in fact, the Minister can direct the governors of the super fund as to how they manage things. We think that\u2019s dangerous, but, on balance, our side is supporting it. I support it. I think it is a useful addition to the New Zealand economy, and I\u2019m happy to commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00225f835e36821447cc821b306029fc351e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f835e36821447cc821b306029fc351e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I call David Seymour\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb7d8aac567f4ede8fbd789493b2ca03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb7d8aac567f4ede8fbd789493b2ca03\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the ACT Party in sole opposition, it would seem, to this abomination of a bill\u2014a house of cards built on a series of fallacies. One thing all New Zealanders want is to be richer, to have a higher level of productivity so that they can work less, earn more, and enjoy their life to a greater extent. That is what\u2019s agreed upon. But in a pathetic series of contributions in this debate over the last few minutes and hours, we have heard absolutely no justification, logic, or explanation for why taking $300 million of taxpayers\u2019 money and putting it into a venture investment fund is going to help us achieve that goal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo we understand what the goal is and we understand that rhetorically, at least, taking some taxpayer money and putting it into some businesses sounds like something that might make us more productive, more sophisticated in terms of our economy, wealthier, and achieve our goals. But there is no explanation of why the policy should work. Nobody that is supporting this bill in this House has gotten up and actually given us the explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe first fallacy they might want to address is the old French economist Bastiat: \u201CCe qu\u2019on voit et ce qu\u2019on ne voit pas.\u201D There is what is seen and what is not seen. Everybody stands up and talks about how all the money, the $300 million, will be used, the companies that will take it, and what they will do with the money. They all want to talk about what is seen. Not one of them talks about the fact that in order to do as much, the same money\u2014$300 million\u2014has to be taken off taxpayers who could have used it to achieve their own goals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAs soon as one confronts that fallacy, suddenly the benefits evaporate, unless somehow the Government has greater knowledge about how to invest taxpayers\u2019 money and what to invest in than those taxpayers do. I say to the people clamouring to get their hands on this money: if you find it hard to get taxpayers to invest in the business, well, I don\u2019t mean to be rude, but maybe they are trying to tell you something. Because the fact is the only reason that this money will get invested is not because it\u2019s a good investment; it\u2019s simply because it is politically fashionable to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd here comes the third fallacy. The second one was that politicians or the guardians of this fund have a better idea how to spend taxpayers\u2019 money than the people who earned it, but the third fallacy is simply the idea that somehow we\u2019re going to get better incentives for people spending other people\u2019s money. So the first problem is they\u2019ve got to take the money off somebody else. The second problem is that they have no knowledge of how to better invest it, and the third problem is they have worse incentives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe incentives that people have when they\u2019re spending other people\u2019s money is ultimately to do what is politically fashionable. We\u2019ve already heard it in this debate. The Green Party thinks you shouldn\u2019t invest in certain companies because they think those companies should be deemed politically unfashionable. The incentives for people investing this money are not to put it where it\u2019s going to best satisfy the customers of the companies getting invested in, the incentives are not to get the best return for the taxpayer; the incentives are to do what is best politically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EFor all those reasons, you have got other people\u2019s money being spent by people who have no greater knowledge about how to spend it, by people whose incentives are actually more political than economic. It\u2019s a disaster, and what\u2019s really incredible is that ACT is alone in opposing it, because it\u2019s one thing to criticise the Government for doing it. In a way, they don\u2019t know any better. The truth is if they knew what to invest money in, they wouldn\u2019t be doing this job. But what is truly shameful is to have the leader of the National Party on the black and white tiles complaining about Government waste, while his colleagues are in here trying to justify\u2014and badly\u2014voting for this bill. ACT proudly opposes this public policy abomination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022 data-id=\u00224bf38057829d4ce492cd83dbefd8cde3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bf38057829d4ce492cd83dbefd8cde3\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE (Labour\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am really proud to rise and talk about the Venture Capital Fund Bill. So everything the previous speaker said, I totally disagree with, and I think exactly the opposite, basically. This is a business-friendly bill. I commend this to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022 data-id=\u00220c0b1fda05294898aba5972922149981\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c0b1fda05294898aba5972922149981\u0022\u003EANDREW FALLOON (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in the slightly strange position this afternoon of agreeing with Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick and disagreeing with David Seymour, which is a slightly foreign position for me to be in, but I\u2019ll do what I can to disagree with Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2019s contribution, because there were a couple of elements in it that I did disagree with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EI do just want to cover off, of course, that we are supporting this bill, as Mr David Seymour has pointed out, because we do see it as one of the few pro-growth measures that was in the Budget, and we do see a role for Government in being involved in venture capital, involved in a venture capital ecosystem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EBut I did want to point out some of the points that Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick made in relation to clause 35 of the bill, where she talked about the fact that Guardians of New Zealand Superannuation must have regard to the Government\u2019s commitment to a low-emissions economy, the Government\u2019s commitment to an inclusive economy, and the Government\u2019s wider economic policy, as specified in the direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EI have concerns about all three of those aspects of the bill, actually, because what it essentially means is that the Guardians will be required to look at other things other than just growth. They\u2019ll be required to look at things that will yield lower returns than if they went for higher returns. My view is that, certainly when it comes to our superannuation and in the money that we are going to rely on in our retirement, the Guardians should be looking for, ideally, the biggest returns they can get, rather than other considerations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EBut the two concerns I have in particular with that are that she actually didn\u2019t fully explain what that clause means. It\u2019s because it\u2019s not just in relation to the guardians having regard to those things. It\u2019s that the guardians have to have regard to the directions from Ministers. So what it means is that a Minister of the Crown would be able to direct the Guardians to have regard to a low-emissions economy, an inclusive economy, and to the Government\u2019s wider economic policy. I have concerns about that, because what it would mean is that a future Green Minister could say, \u201CRight. Well, from now on, growth is no longer our consideration. We\u2019re not worried about how much the Superannuation Fund or this fund actually yield. We\u2019re only concerned about climate change mitigation, or only concerned about ensuring that the wealth disparity in New Zealand reduces. We\u2019re not actually worried at all about getting higher returns for our superannuation.\u201D So I do have concerns about those aspects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003EEarlier in the debate Mr Mark Patterson said this bill would \u201Cplug a hole in the New Zealand economy\u201D. I thought about that afterwards, because I think to myself, \u201CWell, what an awfully large hole this Government\u2019s dug themselves in when it comes to the economy.\u201D, because what we\u2019ve had this afternoon or earlier today was the HYEFU, which is the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update, come out. What that showed is that we\u2019ve now got a projected deficit for the first time in quite a few years after having this Government come in just a couple of years ago, two years ago. And at the time Treasury were projecting, I think, from memory, surpluses out to 2032, which is about as far as they can project. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s quite staggering now that we have this situation just two years in that we have such low growth that the Treasury are now projecting that we\u2019re going to have a deficit for the first time. So for Mark Patterson to jump up and say that in some way this $300 million fund is going to plug that hole, I find quite staggering, because, as my colleagues on this side of the House have pointed out, it\u2019s not actually $300 million of new money at all; $240 million of it comes from the Superannuation Fund, which, as I pointed out, should be trying to get high yields and higher returns for our superannuation, and $60 million of it comes from the Venture Investment Fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re standing up in this House, debating this legislation about $300 million and a brand new fund, when actually it\u2019s not $300 million of new money at all. All it is is $300 million dollars of reallocated money that, as my colleague Mr Seymour has pointed out, has come from taxpayers. So it\u2019s not as if this is a brand new wonderful fund which is going to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d095ad0a00234fc699d77f4157befb42\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What does the member think of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2de46a-9047-4bfe-92c8-5f14fd415dfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d690365ecbe45a98df7707a6dcb35ff\u0022\u003EANDREW FALLOON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Seymour has actually almost talked me into voting against this bill. I won\u2019t, though, because we are trying to encourage the Government to come up with pro-growth policies. We do see this as one of the very few pro-growth things that the Government has proposed. So we will vote for it. But I do have concerns about those things, and I do, in particular, have a concern with Ms Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, who wants to go even further than those ministerial directions. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022425c8fe408a14d2ba8e13812309c696b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022425c8fe408a14d2ba8e13812309c696b\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister of Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, just a short call to say that the double-talk coming from the opposite side is astounding\u2014you know, they double-talk all the time about the bill not being on target but they\u2019re 100 percent behind it\u2014because they created the hole that our New Zealand First member was talking about earlier. A hole in the New Zealand economy? Absolutely, no doubt about that. A hole created because of the nil investment in terms of the New Zealand economy over nine years. And that\u2019s why we\u2019ve got a great investment from Minister Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271224ee28e3d4b72ad6e7cf42c63a32c\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What does the purpose statement in the bill say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e7a42a81982462db51230f9d44432b1\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re talking about a $12 billion investment, Mr Seymour, in terms of infrastructure\u2014a fantastic investment from the Minister of Finance\u2014and Mr Seymour should know, as the Opposition should know, that it\u2019s not just about numbers, numbers, numbers. It\u2019s about people, people, people\u2014something that the National Party forgot about a long, long time ago. Basically, the National Party are a disgrace, and the reality is that they support us because they\u2019re double-talkers. The public know that, and that\u2019s why they\u2019re going to lose next year\u2019s election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very happy to support this bill. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a7d1ef01560d4603bfc2b8fa5bd9dc8a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Venture Capital Fund Bill and the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 119\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; New Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f0c41aca34b436482fa096a766c3a9c\u0022\u003ERemuneration Authority (Members of Parliament Remuneration) Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223af89abe164647b68e55a0be0eaf849e\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022032308be8f81475e91e321cae2780310\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022032308be8f81475e91e321cae2780310\u0022\u003EHon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Remuneration Authority (Members of Parliament Remuneration) Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI thank the members of the Education and Workforce Committee for their consideration of this bill. The select committee has not recommended any changes. In light of this it is my intention to very briefly set out the intent of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIt is critical that public money is spent responsibly. The formula that Parliament previously put in place was intended to rein in significant pay increases for members of Parliament. Unfortunately, it has not had that effect at all and MPs\u2019 pay has outstripped inflation significantly. The 2015 change removed the Remuneration Authority\u2019s discretion in setting the increases as these increases were determined by a rigid formula. Since the 2015 changes, MPs\u2019 salary increases have ranged from 2.46 percent to 4.06 percent per year, compared to average increases of 1.7 percent for the four years prior to the 2015 changes. In absolute dollar terms, the increases since 2015 have also been higher. The repeatedly high annual increases in pay set under this formula call into question whether the settings for determining MPs\u2019 pay are fit for purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Remuneration Authority Act 1977 and the Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Act 2013 to establish a new process for how the authority sets the salaries of MPs. The bill restores the authority\u2019s discretion to determine MPs\u2019 salaries based on criteria. The criteria system is currently used by the authority to set the salaries of judicial officers, the Governor-General, and elected local authority officials, and has resulted in lower pay increases compared to members of Parliament. Although the circumstances of each role are different, this discrepancy suggests that the criteria-based system is a more appropriate one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe bill also restores the requirement for the authority to consider the personal benefit arising out of MPs\u2019 entitlements when setting their salaries. The bill requires the authority to make this year\u2019s determination of MPs\u2019 pay under this restored system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill will link future reviews to the electoral cycle so that the authority would conduct one review after each general election and would set MPs\u2019 pay for the entire term of Parliament specified on a year-by-year basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThis bill establishes a new process for how the authority sets the salaries of MPs. This new process will strike a better balance between the interests of New Zealanders and those whose remuneration is being assessed. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u00224225e051e76441d5b7b6abc2c34745cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224225e051e76441d5b7b6abc2c34745cc\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call to support the Remuneration Authority (Members of Parliament Remuneration) Amendment Bill (No 2) in the second reading. This is a bill which in the Education and Workforce Committee we decided to not amend at all. So you can see the kind of support this bill received from all sides. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EFor some reason I was expecting a lot more submissions for this legislation, because when we talk about MPs\u2019 salaries, for some reason there is a lot of interest amongst people. But we received only six submissions on this legislation. We didn\u2019t hear from any submitters. So nobody appeared for an oral submission to the select committee, but that doesn\u2019t diminish the value of their written submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EAll I want to say is that this has been very non-controversial legislation in the select committee process and the recommendation that we made in the select committee process for this bill, for the report back to the House, is that the bill proceed without amendment. I have rarely seen this happen: when a bill goes to the select committee and we don\u2019t make any amendments and we say that the bill actually should go through without any amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThis legislation clearly highlights that MPs come to this job not for financial reward; MPs come to Parliament to do better for New Zealand, to do better for their communities, because they really believe that they can make that difference. So they don\u2019t come here for financial reward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWhat we saw in 2015 was that because of the system that was followed at that time, MPs were getting an increase in their salary of 5.5 percent, and we thought that was not justifiable. So that\u2019s why we decided to review two Acts: the Remuneration Authority Act and the Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Act. Through that review, what we did was link MP salary increases through a fixed formula to public sector wages. So this legislation now actually repeals that change that we did in 2015. So we are going back to giving that independence to the Remuneration Authority, not linking it through the fixed formula to public sector wages but using that criteria that is listed in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EI also want to highlight that we have realised that going back to the system that was there before 2015 actually would be better in our current circumstances, because if we look back to the increases that we received from 2011 to 2014, the average increase was around 1.7 percent, and if you look at the increase that we received from 2015 to 2018, that ranged from between 2.5 percent to 4 percent. Also, at the start of 2018, we realised that the increase that MPs\u2014us, that we will get in our salary will be around 3.3 percent. We want to make sure that the increases that we get in our salaries are justifiable, and that\u2019s why we think this is a bill which should go through and we support this legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00227b9e2e1331084948a799a9e70e565e24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b9e2e1331084948a799a9e70e565e24\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just want to briefly rise to commend the bill to the House. I think this is a very sensible bill which puts the setting of MPs\u2019 remuneration back within a framework that delivered moderate and appropriate increases. I think that the previous regime that was set up under the Key Government was well intentioned, but in tying MP remuneration to public sector increases, it actually had the reverse outcome. Incidentally, I think there\u2019s an interesting little lesson in there, which is: \u201CWhy might that be?\u201D Primarily, it\u2019s because public sector has retained a very strong level of collective bargaining across the economy and have been able to, therefore, argue for and successfully have higher pay increases. So that\u2019s a good lesson there for workers about a good way of increasing your pay: join your union.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EBut in this case, I think the House is of one mind, which is that we want to see a more moderate and appropriate level of increases for members of Parliament. The formula, the set of criteria previously considered by the Remuneration Authority, achieved that, and this bill will take us back to that point, as well as having the very sensible reform of setting pay once every three years, which I think has a range of benefits instead of the annual process and some of the difficulties that arise from that. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002244d990f4de894a589b9ebc42e19248b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244d990f4de894a589b9ebc42e19248b8\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to take a call on the Remuneration Authority (Members of Parliament Remuneration) Amendment Bill (No 2) at this reading. I just want to commend this bill to the House on behalf of the National Party, and to acknowledge, firstly, the chair of the Education and Workforce Committee, Dr Parmjeet Parmar, for the work that she\u2019s done, and also the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety, Iain Lees-Galloway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis is a bill about MPs\u2019 pay. It\u2019s one of those issues which gets a lot of interest in the community. Essentially, what this bill does is restore the independence of the Remuneration Authority to be able to set the pay for members of Parliament, and that\u2019s a principle which I believe is going to lead to fair and reasonable pay remuneration for members of Parliament, something which will ensure that it isn\u2019t something that varies depending on whether public sector pay is going up, down, or faster than the other, and something which allows members of Parliament to have nothing to do with what that determination is or the formula which creates it. I think that\u2019s the appropriate way that it should be set, and so I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u00229cbc890ef9164681bd5320af617fdfd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cbc890ef9164681bd5320af617fdfd2\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise, slightly unexpectedly, to speak on behalf of New Zealand First on this bill. I see that Clayton Mitchell was due to be speaking on this, but he\u2019s headed for the hills and allowed me to take the public wrath of, essentially, voting on my own pay rise. So this is perceived sometimes to be a contentious issue with the public, but I think the levels of submissions to the Education and Workforce Committee suggested that, I think, there is an understanding that a formula and an independent process\u2014and perhaps returning it to that original formula\u2014is a good one. It is probably quite a hard profession, if you could call it that, to evaluate in terms of where the appropriate setting should be. So that independent process and that independent formula that had worked pretty well prior to those 2015 submissions is the appropriate formula, and New Zealand First does support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI did sit on the select committee through this. It was non-controversial, and, as I say, having it sit in an independent process is where it should be. So New Zealand First supports this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022cec7668bf793471bbb1668f1f829b0a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cec7668bf793471bbb1668f1f829b0a3\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m absolutely fascinated to see how quickly the Government is now moving through its business. I honestly think that this week they have completed more business than they have in the previous three months. For most of this year, of course, they\u2019ve been filibustering their own bills, and now finally they\u2019ve decided they want to get on with it\u2014maybe it\u2019s because they recognise that the public sees what a joke the year of delivery has been and they better at least deliver some legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EBe that as it may, I am very pleased also to take a short call and to express my support for the bill, not least because, in my experience, the public appetite for hearing MPs talk about their pay and conditions is probably akin to a two-year-old\u2019s appetite for beetroot and brussels sprouts. Whenever we talk about the subject, there\u2019s a sort of general condemnation that we\u2019re all overpaid, we\u2019re all a waste of space\u2014and there may be some truth to that in some cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ENevertheless, there are two serious points that I want to make. One is that I am very happy that we have a Remuneration Authority, because it is very important that we have no control over the way in which our salary is conducted; if we were to do so, there would then be some genuine reason for the public to express the sort of contempt and mirth that we so often hear. So I appreciate the work that the Remuneration Authority does and I just hope that they can find a formula that continues to be fair and minimises the anger of the public about the fact that we might ever get an increase in our salaries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe other thing I just want to point out\u2014and, Madam Speaker, I\u2019m sure you\u2019ll be familiar with this as well\u2014is that I\u2019m constantly surprised by how many people think that the old parliamentary pension scheme still exists. People say, \u201COh, well, you\u2019ve completed your three terms as a member of Parliament now, so therefore you automatically qualify for a pension.\u201D Well, for anybody listening who\u2019s labouring under that misapprehension, that scheme was abolished more than two decades ago\u2014Madam Speaker might be able to tell me exactly the year it was, but I think it was around about the time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b526fa7b48c8469aa978a22eb63a7474\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I came in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244717556704c4ccd80628a7f81c28a1a\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes it was; well, you\u2019re a very young woman, Madam Speaker\u2014that MMP was introduced in the mid-1990s. There is a different scheme, but we all have to contribute to it. I\u2019m not going to explain it other than the fact that you do not automatically qualify simply by completing three terms as a member of Parliament, and I\u2019d hope that the public would welcome that as well. This is a good bill; I\u2019m very happy to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u002272b77cbf889b4399a9799d7f9ebd671a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272b77cbf889b4399a9799d7f9ebd671a\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. Madam Speaker, I haven\u2019t had a half as long and industrious career as you, but in my decade in Parliament I\u2019ve seen this play out multiple times in our parliamentary history. A Government comes in, freezes the MP salary, and then later on has to unfreeze it and there\u2019s a big boost. There\u2019s been tinkering over my decade in Parliament, and, unfortunately, we still have not seen an enduring solution. So while the Green Party is supporting this\u2014because it\u2019s preferable to the status quo, which has seen unrealistic and, I think, indefensible pay rises for MPs\u2014the fact is that I still don\u2019t think we\u2019ve got an enduring solution that\u2019s going to see something with political and public support. Now, the previous speaker\u2014I think, in jest\u2014talked about how MPs didn\u2019t want to speak long in this debate and draw attention because the public doesn\u2019t want to see MPs talk about their pay. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s true. I think the public don\u2019t want to see MPs once again tinker with MP pay when they\u2019d rather see an enduring solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENow, we support this legislation because it\u2019s better than the status quo, but it is not the ideal solution. For many, many years\u2014probably 10 years now\u2014the Green Party have been advocating for a much more robust, clear system that was transparent, easily understood by the Remuneration Authority, by politicians, and by the public, that was actually based on a clear metric. Now, the problem, of course, is that while this is better than the status quo, essentially we\u2019re kicking the ball back to the Remuneration Authority, who have six criteria on which to base their decisions. Now, what I think would be much easier for the public to understand, which would be much more politically defensible, would be to index our salaries to the nominal weekly median income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhat I mean by that is that by linking it to public servants\u2014and the previous speaker, Michael Wood, mentioned how as public servants had seen pay increases, so MPs had under the previous system. But what public sector employees receive is not the same as what your everyday Kiwi, your median Kiwi on the street, actually receives. What I think is critical is that what we have seen is MPs\u2019 pay actually increase faster than public servants\u2019, because we\u2019re taking a percentage. Now, a percentage on $50,000 is a lot less in weekly take-home pay than a percentage on $150,000, and equally so for higher remunerated positions in the Parliament. What the Green Party has advocated for and what we\u2019re going to continue to advocate for is actually making it the nominal increase. So if the median New Zealand worker gets $5 extra in their pay packet a week, that\u2019s what MPs should get.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENow, I appreciate this might not be the most popular position in the House, but I think it would be the most popular and defensible position amongst the public. Analysis the Parliamentary Library did for us found that had we had the system since 2011, when, again, we saw another political decision to freeze MPs\u2019 pay, we would be $11,000 less remunerated as a result if we\u2019d used this nominal median income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENow, I think it\u2019s important to reflect we are in the top 2 percent of income earners, so I\u2019m not going to take a quick call to try and not draw attention to it. I think we have to face up to the fact that we are very well remunerated for the work that we do, and, actually, if the public\u2019s going to see continuing pay increases, it should be indexed, and I think if you were going to index it to one thing, it\u2019s the median worker and how they\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENow, I think the important point to raise, of course, is that if the median worker goes backwards, I think so should members of Parliament. It\u2019s important that we actually reflect, if there are tough times out in the economic community, that we are sharing the burden, and that is not likely to happen using the current criteria. So while it\u2019s good that we\u2019re changing the system, while I\u2019d point out the benefits of moving to a triennial or a three-year system rather than the annual pay rounds that we have seen in the past, we think there is a much more robust, enduring, positive, fair, transparent, clear solution ready and waiting. We\u2019ve been advocating for a long time, and I just fear that in the future, we\u2019re going to see the same situation play out once again, until we have such a clear, fair system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EBut, still, the Green Party is able to support it, because it\u2019s better than the status quo, and we\u2019d like to acknowledge all those who submitted and played a role in the Education and Workforce Committee. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the committee and the chair and thank Parliament for making a step in the positive direction here today. Kia ora koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022 data-id=\u002262db70a2c59a4626b36db036ec72c1d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262db70a2c59a4626b36db036ec72c1d5\u0022\u003EDENISE LEE (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I was privileged to be on the select committee that took this particular bill through to this point, the Education and Workforce Committee. I take some of the points from the previous speaker, Gareth Hughes, but the problem fundamentally that I have with what he said is he\u2019s purporting to have the ideal solution. What we found out through the select committee process is that there are a gazillion ideal solutions when it comes to MPs\u2019 pay. Everyone has a different solution, and we were quite surprised, as pointed out by Dr Parmar, that only six people submitted on this. We really genuinely thought that we\u2019d be facing a much longer hearings process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s an example of how wide and varied opinions can be on this topic. One particular submitter wanted us to define \u201Cfair relativity\u201D, a phrase used in the bill, when it comes to MPs getting fair relativity in regards to levels of remuneration received elsewhere. As a select committee team, the officials\u2014and good luck to the independent authority that decides all these things. The term \u201Cfair\u201D is such a subjective concept, so it\u2019s so fitting and right that this be taken out of our hands and into an independent authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022943fd636-21ec-4442-9a72-68c49464776f\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just make one more comment, and that is that we support the bill, and we also believe that it\u2019s a good thing that the review will be once every three years following an election, so we don\u2019t have what some may call tweaking\u2014we don\u2019t have that on a sporadic and erratic basis; we have consistency. That\u2019s exactly what this bill is aiming to achieve. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022071f762de5ca45c5b3c5c20ab1bd588e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022071f762de5ca45c5b3c5c20ab1bd588e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call\u2014Dr Liz Craig.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u00226fe7e26bca7c42159e5b960e05c8f843\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fe7e26bca7c42159e5b960e05c8f843\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise in support of this bill, because what this bill is going to do is return discretion to the Remuneration Authority in terms of sitting MPs\u2019 pay, rather than having to rely on a strict formula, which ended up inadvertently with very large pay increases for MPs. So instead, what it\u2019s going to be doing is allowing MPs\u2019 pay to be based on a range of different criteria, and they include relativity but also the prevailing economic conditions. So I have no hesitation in commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea62b2cbbff74f5cb6ad07e435f72502\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea62b2cbbff74f5cb6ad07e435f72502\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022943cf1451d1743ac980ac8dc8179ffa8\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Got to be in to win.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aba65224cc348d9b11b8b561442f962\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I rise to support this bill, and eagerly await the member David Seymour\u2019s contribution, which he\u2019s clearly enthusiastic about making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIn starting my contribution, I want to give a bouquet to Gareth Hughes, a member in this House who I don\u2019t often agree with and a retiring member who has had a lot of time to reflect on matters in this House. I think he is correct when he says that members of Parliament should be incentivised to make sure that the median wage is rising and that we as members of this House aren\u2019t getting so removed from the typical New Zealand worker that we\u2019re not incentivised to see those wages increasing. In fact, here on the National side of the House, we think it is a fundamental role of any Government to ensure that average wages are rising and that they\u2019re keeping up with the cost of living and, in fact, that people are getting ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAll of us, when we are making policy decisions in this House, when we are determining which way we do things, should be thinking about the impact that policies will have on the wages of typical Kiwi earners. So I appreciated that contribution. National supports this bill. We support the independence of the Remuneration Authority to determine MPs\u2019 salaries based on criteria. We support linking the reviews to the electoral cycle, and we support restoring the requirement for the authority to consider the value of the personal benefit of entitlements. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00220646595c0470470c99c804710bea8e0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220646595c0470470c99c804710bea8e0d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand this is a split call\u2014David Seymour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00226d6b2b8666314e999844b4ff836dc434\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d6b2b8666314e999844b4ff836dc434\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the ACT Party in opposition to this bill. It would have been very simple to do something that was clear, simple, and, ironically enough, endorsed by the Green Party. The story of MPs\u2019 pay has been the search for finding somebody to blame, and for a long time it was the Remuneration Authority. They set it with some discretion, and then that became unpopular. So then the thought was perhaps if the pay of MPs was tied to a mathematical formula, it would be easy to say, \u201CWell, this is what the formula says.\u201D The only small difficulty was that the formula presented MP pay rises much larger than anticipated. So we are now throwing out the idea of having a mathematical formula, in order to go back to discretion of civil servants in deciding MPs\u2019 pay. Having failed at blaming a mathematical formula, we\u2019re going to go back to trying to blame people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe problem is that there was a solution\u2014strangely enough, elucidated by Gareth Hughes of the Green Party, of all people\u2014that actually would have been much better. The solution is simply that MPs\u2019 pay, rather than being tied to the pay of public servants as it has been for the past several years, should be tied to the median wage of the New Zealand worker, because to whom MPs\u2019 pay is tied not only changes the incentives of MPs but tells us something about the purpose of this place, the purpose of members of Parliament, and what our values and aspirations are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe problem with the old formula is that if any of those signals are to be taken seriously, then we aspire to be a country with higher paid civil servants\u2014right? That\u2019s what, under the old formula, MPs had to do if they wanted to get paid more, and what they should be doing is making New Zealand wealthier and more productive, because one of the real public policy and performance scandals of New Zealand in the last couple of decades has been anaemic growth in productivity. Perhaps a related scandal is that over the years that the previous arrangement was in place, MPs\u2019 pay went up so rapidly because public servants\u2019 pay went up so rapidly, and public sector productivity has been rubbish over that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EOne could comment, having listened to some of the speeches that preceded mine, about the productivity of the MPs who have been receiving these pay rises, too\u2014the quality of outputs for the effort put in perhaps not being as high as it might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ENevertheless, we are missing an opportunity here. By seeking to blame a Remuneration Authority for any unpopular decisions about MPs\u2019 pay, we have missed the opportunity to retain the strategy of using a mathematical formula, and we\u2019ve missed the opportunity to pick the correct mathematical formula that would have aligned members of Parliaments\u2019 incentives with something much more important than raising the pay of the public sector. We could have actually chosen to align MPs\u2019 incentives with the productivity and median wages of New Zealand. Simple: New Zealand gets richer, MPs get paid more; New Zealand gets poorer, MPs get paid less. How difficult is it to understand that? Well, actually, it\u2019s clear to understand, and that\u2019s another one of the advantages of taking this strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EYou see, the real issue underneath all of this, which no one else will say, is that it\u2019s about MPs finding someone to blame for unpopular decisions about their pay. If it was linked to the median wage of the average or the median New Zealand worker, then it would be simple enough and justifiable enough that nobody would complain. So not only would that alternative advanced by Gareth Hughes have been better in terms of performance and incentives, it actually would have been more durable and effective in solving the real problem these politicians here are grappling with, which is how to blame someone for unpopular decisions about our own pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ENevertheless, that opportunity has been missed. We\u2019re going round in circles, and I\u2019m quite happy to be opposing this bill. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00220a3796b580ca4774bc47930fb2902f8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a3796b580ca4774bc47930fb2902f8f\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a delight to stand and talk on this Remuneration Authority (Members of Parliament Remuneration) Amendment Bill (No\u00A02). I wasn\u2019t a member of the Education and Workforce Committee, and I have not, up until very recently, reviewed the legislation. Quite simply, I see this bill as having no fixed formula, a review set to the electoral cycle so that at the beginning of coming into Parliament you know what your salary will be for the next three years, and consideration for the authority to put the value of personal benefits in. I think that this bill is very practical. It\u2019s very sensible. I acknowledge there are different opinions in the House; however, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u002298efd4ac7274421aa9c0b008e97009bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298efd4ac7274421aa9c0b008e97009bf\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and to be the last speaker from the National Party on this bill. There have been a lot of points that have been traversed today into this bill. So just to summarise some of those points: MPs, by and large, don\u2019t do this for the pay. On this side of the House, if we were doing this for the pay, we\u2019d be in the private sector. We do this because we earnestly want to make a difference and improve the lives of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThis is about valuing the contribution of MPs. I know that that\u2019s very subjective. My own late father suggested that members of Parliament were overpaid, and then there are other people that I\u2019ve spoken to who have said we\u2019re underpaid. So this is very subjective, but I believe in the Remuneration Authority, and giving the Remuneration Authority the authority to actually do this and to assess MPs\u2019 pay is important. National supports this bill, and we commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022 data-id=\u00224c4757d8d2a842b989e2a56089efe6a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c4757d8d2a842b989e2a56089efe6a1\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE (Labour\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019ve got the last say, and that\u2019s always a good thing, and it\u2019s always a very difficult topic to talk about. We\u2019re much more humble and have humility on this side of the House. We\u2019re here because we\u2019re privileged and honoured to be here and the rest as such. But, look, I remember when I was chair of the Performance Review Committee for the chief executive officer of the Wellington City Council\u2014always difficult; the ratepayers always got a little upset when you had to adjust things to certain levels, and some outfit told you that this is how much you had to pay and then we paid it, and, of course, great uproar. So we\u2019re a bit more smarter, I think, in central government, and we\u2019re going to give that discretion to the Remuneration Authority. They\u2019ll do a good job\u2014different criteria\u2014and I think we\u2019ll await the results. I commend this bill to the House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222becca260b8746c289f199385ce11509\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Remuneration Authority (Members of Parliament Remuneration) Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 119\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; New Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002245921018ff4146fa98097bccaf0168e4\u0022\u003EEducation (Pastoral Care) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa3666a1e8554e4ea5886d0bab2eb587\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022934705cee3054018a89d43cd447dfdbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022934705cee3054018a89d43cd447dfdbf\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for all provisions of the Education (Pastoral Care) Amendment Bill to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc3a4526e8764d7f8f30805b7f946f6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc3a4526e8764d7f8f30805b7f946f6e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002223749c09601b4b0e954ba8ebd2045db1\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 5 and Schedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00225b44f9f303574f13844ae116762672db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b44f9f303574f13844ae116762672db\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I want to echo the comments I made yesterday in thanking members of the House for their constructive work to bring the Education (Pastoral Care) Amendment Bill back to the House with a degree of speed, and I want to thank them for the amendments that they have suggested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI want to begin, though, by acknowledging again, as I did in my first reading speech, the family of Mason Pendrous. I\u2019ve been reluctant to make any further comment on the case of Mason whilst the coroner was undertaking their investigation. I understand that they have reported their findings today, and I want to acknowledge how difficult that is for his family. Mason died whilst living in university accommodation at the University of Canterbury. The coroner was able to confirm where he died; unfortunately, because his body had been there for some time, they were unable to confirm the cause of his death. I do want to acknowledge that, for the family, that will always leave them with a lot of unanswered questions\u2014questions that we will never be able to answer in this House, questions the coroner has not been able to answer. In fact, nobody is going to be able to give them the answers that they seek. What we can do in this House, though, is take the steps that we can reasonably take to ensure that no family finds himself in that position in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI think that what we\u2019ve shown in the last month or so, as the House has considered this matter, is that, in fact, we all want to do that. We all want to ensure that, when students move into accommodation that is provided by a tertiary education provider, they are given some certainty around the level of pastoral care that they will be provided. I believe that the issuing of a code of practice is going to ensure that we can give that surety. Of course there is still going to be a need for the institutions themselves to look closely at the policies and practices that they have in place to make sure that they are as robust as they possibly can be, and I believe that the code of practice sets up the framework in which they can do that. So, again, I think that the interim code of practice that we\u2019ll be issuing this side of Christmas will give families certainty that, as we head into the new academic year in 2020, there are rules in place where there has been a regulatory gap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAnd then over the course of the next year, we can work constructively with all those who have an interest: students themselves, their parents, the tertiary education providers, and others to make sure that there is a really robust code of practice in place from the beginning of 2021. So the interim code\u2014the work is now being finalised on that so that we can issue that as soon as this bill is passed. I believe that that\u2019s something that the House has expressed a desire to facilitate happening and I want to thank all members for that\u2014and then we can make sure that we have something further in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI do understand that there are questions that have been raised by the New Zealand Treasury, by the Opposition around the potential fiscal implications of this. We do need to work very carefully through that. It hasn\u2019t been possible to do all of that detailed analysis in the time frame required to get the interim code in place. But, again, I think that there is a desire, a hope across the House, to keep a very active overview and a very active watch on this work as it continues to happen so that we can make sure that those issues are addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Government has put in place interim funding to ensure that the code can be adequately monitored through the first year of operation. And then over the course of the next year, as we do that further, we can look at what further financing may be required to ensure that putting the code of practice in place in the longer term is properly supported. I\u2019m very happy to answer any specific questions or address any specific issues that members may wish to raise. I do again want to acknowledge that members have worked very constructively to bring the bill to this point, and I thank them for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u002289a830eb93da4d81b0b617407ca5ddc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289a830eb93da4d81b0b617407ca5ddc0\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We\u2019re in support of this bill and the details which we traversed yesterday, so we understand the intent, the purpose, and the urgency that brings it here to the House and the collaborative point that we\u2019ve reached. Again, I want to acknowledge Universities New Zealand and those who, potentially, had the most to lose in this bill, considering they were exempted from the Residential Tenancies Act, when they came to the Education and Workforce Committee and said they understood the need for legislation. I think it was clear that really even those who might have felt most aggrieved were on board with the need for this. I think that\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to continue the discussion that at some point in the future we might be able to bring the international code and the domestic code into one form, albeit that there may need to be a position, potentially, for children\u2014a code for children. But this has been futureproofed, so I think our interests are allayed in that way\u2014that the legislation we\u2019re enabling has the ability to futureproof those desires. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI think, thirdly, what has been most reassuring to us in the development of the code, which now passes to officials\u2014so we\u2019re just enabling the code to be developed\u2014is the fact that it\u2019s a disallowable instrument. And that was sort of a safety net underpinning it for us with the privileges that a member of the Regulations Review Committee has to bring this back to the House\u2014or indeed any member in a slightly more protracted course. I think that was reassuring and gives us some faith that officials will do their best and diligent work. If we have any concerns we could bring it back and debate it, but I think that\u2019s been a very reassuring part\u2014bearing in mind the urgency that we\u2019ve somewhat all agreed to, to propel this bill and move it forward\u2014that it does have that underpinning it. So, we\u2019re supporting this bill and are pleased with its content as it progresses this far. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 5 and the Schedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cab1f3a9abcc47fe9fd37e249ac7414a\u0022\u003ETerrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002234f6bbe4b6a54ccfa2d615ba779550ee\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e8ffa3b6cc484947bade729d974305d3\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00224f2b93bd77b941c3a383db9aca4b2048\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f2b93bd77b941c3a383db9aca4b2048\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, to be honest with you, Madam Chair, it\u2019s a major concern to me that on something as serious as the terrorism suppression bill, we saw in the House yesterday on the second reading the Minister of Justice come down and take a call for five minutes. We didn\u2019t see any of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee members in the House to take a call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce48a11e3e544a13a390ceec1c4a1ab9\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: That member just about missed the call himself because he wasn\u2019t paying attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cc4889c500145058400eaa78fa00ea8\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and so I\u2019d ask the Minister now who seems very passionate about it to take a call and actually let the committee know what your thoughts are on the terrorism suppression bill. It\u2019s national security and it\u2019s a shame to see that we don\u2019t have the Minister of Justice in the seat. We don\u2019t have the Minister in the seat today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5afef5e46df4745a518c9be9e79468a\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Speak to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022622d8e0e33624f4c8b6b879ca1a7f2dd\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: So, instead of the Minister on the other side of the Chamber, Carmel Sepuloni, wanting to shout down the person taking the call, stand up and take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afac8e12096a4f788e440bc194c29b37\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member can\u2019t call another member to take a call. Back to the bill, please, Mr Mitchell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cede004745e4f91a986be2053ee47bf\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. So, the reality with this bill is that it completely fails at the first test. And the first test is quite simply this: that if we have someone returning from overseas that has been engaged in, or has been a sponsor of, or has supported any type of terrorist activity, we have to be able to pick them up at the border, have an interim control order or a control order in place that means the court is then able to put an order in place where we can monitor the person\u2014our security agencies, whether it be the police or SIS can actually monitor the individual. And the bill completely fails at that first test and maybe the Minister in the chair, the Hon Chris Hipkins, can actually stand and take a call on this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe reason why it fails, and the evidence that we heard in the select committee, is quite simply this: if someone arrives in New Zealand having been a participant in some type of terror group, and let\u2019s use Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), because actually that\u2019s where\u2014we know about someone returning, Mark Taylor, the \u201CBumbling Jihadi\u201D, whatever we want to call him. The guy\u2019s an idiot. There\u2019s no doubt about that. But he\u2019s actually quite a resourceful idiot because he somehow managed to get himself to Syria and linked up with ISIS. He\u2019s just one. He\u2019s not the only one. And I\u2019d put it to this committee that actually the thing that catches Governments out is the stuff that they don\u2019t know about, are the things that they don\u2019t think about, and therefore they don\u2019t put plans in place to actually deal with the unknowns or have the best chance to deal with the unknowns. We don\u2019t know how many returning terrorists or people that have been involved in terror activity may turn up on our border. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe other thing that we do know for sure is that we like to think in a perfect world that our partners, whether it be Five Eyes partners or other coalition partners that have joined us, for example, as part of a broader coalition of 12 countries in Iraq and Syria to try to remove the threat of ISIS\u2014we\u2019d like to think that our systems would work properly and that we would be notified and that we would know about that person trying to get back to the country, back into New Zealand, that we were actually notified and we knew that they were on their way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn a perfect world, this bill might work because it means that we do have time. The application can be made, the High Court can put a control order in place, and they can be picked up at the border. But the reality is this: we don\u2019t live in a perfect world and the possibility that we could have someone arrive at our border without the proper red flags or notifications is real. And if we do have someone arrive at our border and we are notified, whether they\u2019re in the air or even whether they are starting to come through customs, this is what the Government\u2019s relying on. They\u2019re relying on the Customs and Excise Act. They\u2019re relying on the New Zealand Customs Service to be able to detain them. They\u2019re probably going to have to break the law, because we had Customs officials in front of the committee and they have got very specific regulations that allow them to detain people. They can legally detain someone for up to four hours. The problem for the Government is this: we heard from the officials that there is no way\u2014there is no way\u2014that they can guarantee that an interim control order could be put in place within four hours and before that person legally had to be released and could walk straight out into the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s good to see the Minister of Justice in the Chamber. I hope that I don\u2019t have to go back over this for him again. If I have to, I will, and, Madam Chair, I hope that you will give me the time to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re relying on\u2014[Bell rung] Thank you, Madam Chair. So we\u2019re now presented with the scenario where this person could walk straight out of the airport and straight into the community. That is a totally unacceptable risk. That is something that this Parliament and this Government has to ensure\u2014has to make sure\u2014cannot happen. Not 80 percent, not 90 percent, not 95 percent; we have to be 100 percent sure that that cannot happen. The Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, I challenge him to stand up and tell this committee and tell this Parliament and tell the country that he can 100 percent guarantee that we will not have a scenario\u2014well, he shakes his head; just get up and do it\u2014where we could have someone returning to our border that can be detained by Customs, probably outside their own rules and regulations and law, for up to four hours. The police that came in front of the committee said this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThey could not guarantee that they could have a surveillance team in place to pick up that person when they left the airport. What does that mean? That means that they just walk straight out into the community without us knowing what their intent is, or what\u2019s in their mind. To me, that is a 100 percent unacceptable risk that\u2019s being passed back on to the community. The Police themselves said that the amendment that the National Party was putting up to give our law enforcement agency the ability to actually stop, detain, and hold that person for up to 72 hours to allow the High Court to get a control order in place\u2014they welcomed that. They wanted that power. I\u2019d like the Minister to stand and tell this House why he wouldn\u2019t work with us, why he wouldn\u2019t sit down to discuss what we feel are seven very strong amendments and Supplementary Order Papers\u2014that we will talk to\u2014that strengthen this bill. Because to me\u2014we\u2019ll talk to the rest of the bill\u2014it fails at the first test because we can\u2019t stop that person, we can\u2019t detain them. So what we\u2019re saying to the country\u2014and this is the reality and this is what happens, Minister, when you sell your soul to the Green Party, to a party that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6351be87e68434fa42f04eb5f70d24a\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I believe that items relating to control orders are in Part 2 of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a6d9bc7c0184b2981b41c287bd9769f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct, so if the member could resume his debate and talk about Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022145e62ebdecb4ca09e87a5cf2fbc12b8\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very happy to, Madam Chairperson, because I\u2019ll be taking several calls in Part 2 of the bill that relate to control orders, but back to my original point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210d384d9fd944703bbaa24e974576cdc\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: What is the purpose of the bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc11dd73168f4d3a8714a940e654440a\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, and that\u2019s what I\u2019m talking to, the purpose of the bill, and I\u2019m being very clear that this bill fails at the first test, at the purpose. The purpose is to pick up returning Kiwis that have been involved with sponsoring or assisting in some type of terror activity when they arrive at our border. That is the purpose of the bill. That\u2019s the original meeting that I had with the Minister, that\u2019s what was discussed, that\u2019s what the imminent threat is, that\u2019s why we\u2019re trying to pass this legislation through the House as quickly as possible. It\u2019s the right thing to do. It would have been nice\u2014there was a three-month lag between that original meeting with the Minister and the actual bill being brought to the House\u2014to have given the public and interested parties more time to make a submission. That was one of the big bugbears that actually came out through the select committee process: that it was a compressed process and there wasn\u2019t enough time to actually look at it and make submissions. But this bill fails, and the Minister\u2014instead of coming and sitting down with us and working with us to come up with a strong bill that will actually, genuinely protect our people in New Zealand, Kiwis, he didn\u2019t want to do that. He sold out to the Green Party, a party that\u2019s made\u2014when he first brought this bill out, the party and the spokesperson, Golriz Ghahraman, said it was \u201Cdog-whistling\u201D. She said it was \u201Cdog-whistling\u201D. She said, \u201CThere\u2019s no place for this extra sort of dog-whistling in lawmaking.\u201D She came out against the bill and now she\u2019s leading it on behalf of the Labour Party and New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWhat does that say about the strength of the bill? It says this: that it\u2019s weak and it\u2019s not going to be strong enough to protect New Zealanders and Kiwis, which is what was meant to be the intent of it. So I\u2019d ask the Minister to please stand and address the issues that I\u2019ve raised in terms of the original intent of this bill. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022a56eaa574ac74cc6972bf42356bcffd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a56eaa574ac74cc6972bf42356bcffd7\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I also would like to speak on the Part 1 aspects\u2014in particular, the purpose of the bill and the way that the bill is not able to meet fully those purposes as set out in Part 1, I think; in clause 3, from memory. In doing so, I refer back to some comments that have been made at earlier stages of the House\u2019s consideration of the bill, including the commentary to the bill and in relation to the likelihood of a relevant person being able to arrive unexpectedly on these shores. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EJust to take a step back, the meaning of \u201Crelevant person\u201D is given in clause 6\u2014again, within Part 1, of course. There we\u2019ve got a person who is 18 years or older\u2014and I\u2019ll return to that aspect, perhaps, in a separate contribution\u2014who is or may be coming to New Zealand or has arrived in New Zealand and who, before their arrival in New Zealand, has done a number of different things. I don\u2019t intend to examine each of those yet, but I do want to note the relevance of the person having arrived on these shores or the prospect of them doing so, in relation to the authorities being aware of that fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOne of the National Party\u2019s objections to the bill\u2014in the sense that it is actually not strong enough, as the Hon Mark Mitchell has alluded to\u2014is the possibility that an unexpected arrival could occur such that a longer period of time than four hours of detention would actually, in fact, be needed. The commentary makes clear that, from the National Party point of view, longer than four hours is needed, and it\u2019s clear from the official advice\u2014I think I read it correctly; I wasn\u2019t at the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee\u2019s consideration from start to finish, but I did attend some\u2014that it was \u201Cunlikely\u201D that a relevant person could arrive unexpectedly. The word unlikely is not the same as impossible, of course. So we are allowing ourselves as a Parliament, if we\u2019re to pass this thing in its current form, the possibility, even if unlikely, that a relevant person could arrive unexpectedly. From that point, or rather the point that a relevant person is taken into detention, the clock is ticking and it\u2019s a short time frame indeed, at a mere four hours, that such action to detain them further for the purpose of protecting the New Zealand public would need to be observed. Relating to the \u201CMain purposes\u201D of the Act\u2014with that being a subheading of \u201CPurpose of this Act\u201D at clause 3\u2014we note that it is to protect the public from terrorism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThat is not qualified by such an adjective or concept as \u201Clikelihood\u201D\u2014in fact, it\u2019s not an adjective at all, but the notion of likelihood. It\u2019s implied that, in fact, what we are after is certainty, partly because we haven\u2019t qualified it in that way, but also given the subject matter, namely the protection of the public from terrorism and the importance of that. That\u2019s something that we should not leave to chance or mere matter of likelihood, but rather with as much certainty as it\u2019s reasonably possible to obtain. Now, I do accept that it would be possible to say, \u201CWell, 72 hours might not be long enough either\u201D, and we\u2019re merely arguing over a question of degree between four hours and 72 hours. But I think that there is a significant difference between those two such that we can justify an argument that four hours would not be long enough but 72 hours, three days, would, in fact, meet that purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOf course, we do need to be careful from a Bill of Rights point of view that we don\u2019t detain people a) unnecessarily or b) unnecessarily long. But, of course, in all human rights\u2014indeed, civil rights, political rights, and so forth\u2014a balancing act is to be achieved, with the weighing of the rights of the public at large to be protected from terrorism versus the rights of an individual who is suspected\u2014yes, only suspected, and innocent till proven guilty\u2014of something that would have a disproportionately severe effect on his or her fellow New Zealand residents, if I can use that shorthand. That\u2019s a serious matter that we should concern ourselves with in this House. And so it is that\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002278981c3fb2234af09caa5974bb02a9a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278981c3fb2234af09caa5974bb02a9a2\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m always thankful to the member who\u2019s just resumed his seat, Chris Penk, because his commitment to intellectual rigour means that he cannot fudge what he actually wants to say, and he does not fudge his contributions to debates on bills such as this. His extraordinary attempt to create a problem where none exists means that, in fact, I have to say, with all due respect to him, he didn\u2019t get there, and that\u2019s, principally, because there is no problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo I know Mr Penk and the Hon Mark Mitchell, who spoke before him, are concerned that the objective as set out in clause 3 of this bill won\u2019t be met\u2014which is about protecting New Zealanders\u2014and, of course, it will. The difference between, I think, the members of the National Party at this point in time in their history and the rest of us in Parliament is that the rest of us are not living in fantasyland. So we work on the basis of facts, we work on the basis of things that are actually happening, and when it comes to legislation like this that is about imposing restrictions on people\u2019s liberty in the particular circumstances where there are allegations and real suspicions of terrorism having been committed or supported abroad, we do so on the basis of good information, generally provided by our intelligence services. I can say this because the nature of the New Zealand democracy and our Government and our Parliament is that, actually, the intelligence that I have access to as the Minister in charge of our spy agencies is made available to the Leader of the Opposition as well. That means it\u2019s made available at least to senior members of the main Opposition party\u2014and it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo members in that party know exactly what this bill is trying to get to and they know that the structure of the bill is such that it will meet the objectives set out in clause 3 of the bill, and I would just invite members for the remainder of the debate on this part and on subsequent parts that we actually stick to the real world, not the fantasyland stuff that sometimes creeps into debates of this nature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI just wanted to say that I\u2019ve heard what the members have said about the objectives of the bill. They are about keeping New Zealanders safe. They are about dealing with the very rare and confined circumstances associated with those who have left this country and who are entitled to return to it, who have fought abroad in ideological and philosophical and religious causes and have done so in a way that is antithetical to the interests and values of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere is a very small number of people to whom this could, and would, apply, and the bill is drafted to make sure that should any of those people return at any time, the rest of New Zealand will be kept safe. No one will arrive unexpectedly and no one arriving back will be a surprise. We know that and members opposite know that, and so this bill bears that in mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill has been done in the time frame that it has been done in because the risk of somebody returning has got much greater, and it is just a great pity that one of the great parties of this Parliament\u2014and it has been since 1936\u2014thinks that in this day and age, with the peculiar circumstances that they find themselves in, it\u2019s OK to play politics on issues of national security. I think it\u2019s a disgrace and it reflects poorly on members opposite. I won\u2019t be engaging any further on that. I will answer sensible questions about the content of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00227771d337c96d4919bd9e430cb71f54fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227771d337c96d4919bd9e430cb71f54fe\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Can I first of all thank the Minister for taking that call and assure him that in my many contributions in the committee stage of this Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Amendment Bill, I won\u2019t be playing politics, but what I want is an assurance that this legislation will make me safe and my family safe and all the people who live in New Zealand safe from terrorism. That\u2019s what this legislation has to be about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI simply have a question to ask of the Minister: are the restrictions proposed in this legislation sufficient? The Minister nods his head and says, yes, they are. I don\u2019t share that confidence that the Minister has, because we know, and he\u2019s just told us in the committee stage today, that no one will be arriving back who is a surprise\u2014I accept that\u2014but these people who will be coming back will be known to him because of his involvement with New Zealand\u2019s security services, and they will be known to New Zealand\u2019s security services because they have been dangerous terrorists as they have gone overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWe know the story about Mark Taylor, the \u201CBungling Jihadi\u201D, and I\u2019ve seen the photographs of him strapped with ammunition and with guns on his shoulder, with that smirky smile. He will potentially return to New Zealand at some stage, and I am not convinced that this legislation is strong enough to protect me from that type of terrorist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister, talking to the purpose of the Act, that the Act is to protect the public from terrorism, and we know that already politics have been played in this bill, because at one stage, Andrew Little, the Minister in charge, wanted to talk to National, and then he changed his mind and went and got the support of the Greens. The Greens initially had said that they would not support the legislation because, listening to Marama Davidson, the co-leader of the Greens the other day, she felt that the human rights of Mark Taylor, the \u201CBungling Jihadi\u201D, were above my concerns around safety, and I reject that. That person\u2019s human rights do not come before the safety of all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThen, when you look at the purpose of the Act and consider the two main purposes\u2014\u201Cto protect the public from terrorism:\u201D, and the second one is \u201Cto prevent engagement in terrorism-related activities in a country:\u201D\u2014they are logical. But you look at the incidental purpose, which is \u201Cto support the relevant person\u2019s reintegration into New Zealand or rehabilitation, or both.\u201D, and I would add to that \u201Cif possible\u201D, because some of these people returning will simply not be able to be rehabilitated to be safe with New Zealand citizens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EYou look at some of the conditions then imposed by, no doubt, the Greens to some of the control orders that are being promoted in the purpose of this bill: the curfew must not be imposed for any longer than 12 hours a day\u2014so they impose a curfew on a person because he\u2019s dangerous to New Zealanders, but put a restriction on it that it cannot be more than 12 hours a day; if that person is dangerous, he needs to be watched for a full 24 hours a day\u2014electronic monitoring must not be imposed where a less restrictive condition would be sufficiently effective, and a person must not be required to attend a rehabilitation service unless the person has given their informed consent to do so. Those three clauses worry me because I know at whose insistence they were put into this legislation\u2014the insistence of the Greens\u2014and as we debate this legislation through the balance of this evening, I have no doubt the Labour Party will be very quiet. They won\u2019t want to take calls, because they know that this legislation\u2019s not strong enough. Deep down, they know it\u2019s not strong enough, and the Hon Andrew Little shakes his head. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that New Zealand was never immune from terrorism. We saw it on 15 March in my home city of Christchurch, and mark my words, sadly, we will see it again. I don\u2019t have confidence\u2014genuinely\u2014that this legislation has been developed in a strong enough fashion, and in saying that, Mr Little, I am not attempting to play politics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb0ca5f9e2d9478ea23bd15b22ceed77\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s exactly what you\u2019re doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6692202096f43a4b7450ca33672b769\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the Minister says that I am. I\u2019m asking him to take my word that I\u2019m not. I want legislation that is strong enough to protect law-abiding New Zealanders and that is not in favour of terrorists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002240fc031d7851404fb351eea23c4e0ec4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240fc031d7851404fb351eea23c4e0ec4\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I listened a few moments ago to the speech offered to the committee by Minister Andrew Little, in which he accused National of playing politics over this bill and tried to tug at some heartstrings by saying that it\u2019s sad that a party with our long history should choose to take this course of action. I think it ignores the fact that we have three parties in Government at the moment who are trying to pull the wool over the eyes of New Zealanders and tell them that this bill somehow provides protection from those who would return to this country with evil, terrorist intent. There is no way that the National Party wants to be involved in a sanction or sanctioning or approving\u2014or whatever term you might like to use\u2014a bill that is fundamentally weak, and I think the disgrace here is that a party like the Labour Party, which has had a sound record through its many long years in this House of cooperating with the other large party in the House on security matters, chose not to in this case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe Minister sits there and shakes his head, but let me tell the committee that the discussions that were entered into initially were not discussions. They were lectures\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e415e19c0d654b3a9c31b1745149014a\u0022\u003ERt Hon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Ultimatums. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200cc116aeae94388a0f7e256a231db2b\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and they were ultimatums and they were \u201CHere is the hard line on the table.\u201D\u2014here is the hard line on the table\u2014\u201CFollow this, or don\u2019t be on board.\u201D Well, there was no willing ear to hear that there might be a different view. I\u2019m fascinated, for example, that the Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227606f07e8c0446c59bc1df541afcc08f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, but the time has come for the committee to adjourn\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221135f10eee304237985442c2fb0a38bb\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll be back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226593e2581bc84823895691cf17043a9b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for the dinner break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5bc86dbe89c4e86a9788dbf2bdcd6aa\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Very difficult to resume a theme when there\u2019s been a 1\u00BD hour gap between the just over two minutes that I was speaking on before and now. But, essentially, what I was saying is that the purpose that is stated in this bill is a complete illusion. New Zealanders cannot feel safe because of this bill. They cannot feel that everything is being done to protect their interests against the opportunity for terrorists to come into this country and perpetrate their terrorist acts, because of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s fascinating that the Prime Minister in recent days has gone out and talked about Mark Taylor. Mark Taylor is the \u201CBumbling Jihadi\u201D, I think the media have fondly named him. The media do this country a disservice by naming him that way because it makes him sound harmless. He\u2019s not harmless. Our security services know he\u2019s not harmless. He is a very, very bad man, and because he now finds himself on the end of a losing side, where there\u2019s, apparently, no more opportunity for him to cut people\u2019s heads off, he suddenly wants to present himself as some kind of a victim living in a refugee camp in Syria, stateless because he decided to destroy his own passport. He wants the New Zealand Government to get him back. I\u2019ve no doubt there are politicians sitting in the Chamber tonight who are quite keen to help him out. The good thing is that because he made those threats against New Zealanders with the suggestion that there should be a number of violent acts perpetrated around Anzac Day a few years ago, he will be arrested at the border, because that is inciting a crime, and, apparently, he\u2019s able to be arrested in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBut the point is, there could be these sorts of people coming back into New Zealand, where that is not immediately known\u2014that is not immediately known. So four hours for the maximum time that someone can be detained from the time they land in New Zealand, make their way off the aircraft, or off the ship, or whatever it is that they used to come into the country, into some kind of immigration control area where they can be identified and held up, four hours is not enough time to do the sorts of checks that have already emerged around Mark Taylor. So what we are saying is: why can\u2019t it be a bit longer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOne thing that will interest some New Zealanders is that if someone is being deported from Australia because they\u2019re some kind of recidivist thief, or some other such, then they can be detained for an even longer period of time. Someone who apparently does have New Zealand citizenship can be detained for a longer period at the border than someone who is known to be a terrorist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAnd then, look, the Minister shakes his head. He seems to have an incredible grip on the law in New Zealand! He looks at me incredulously because he\u2019s says, \u201CI am the Attorney-General; of course I know about the law.\u201D Well, if he did, he would admit that this law is completely inadequate for the purpose that is being set out. He continues to shake his head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI said earlier there were negotiations between the New Zealand National Party and the Government. But the negotiations\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abeaaa66c31e460fbd9a7fa7ef44c52a\u0022\u003EHon Aupito William Sio\u003C/span\u003E: Then you changed your mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9ad1b44a1ce4c9bad66942487e31d4c\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Aupito William Sio, they were not negotiations. They were a list of demands put on the table by Andrew Little, and the ultimatum given \u201CGo with this or don\u2019t go in it at all.\u201D And when we looked\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d4e8f9af9634d738e7269650a2b6606\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: What planet are you on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278d017fd9ffc4d5589485f7a04a2b076\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m sorry, Mr Little asked me what planet I\u2019m on. Mr Little, you\u2019re the one, sir, who is not on the planet. You are the man who is presiding over a piece of legislation that is attempting to pull the wool over the eyes of New Zealanders and tell them that this will protect them from returning jihadists and other terrorists to New Zealand. This is the man who knows that we have a watch list in this country of a large number of people, that we are part of the Five Eyes network that will give us all sorts of other information, and that we have other security intelligence arrangements that will give us information about these people, and all of those countries\u2014all of those countries\u2014have far tougher legislation for their returning terrorist fighters and others who might seek to come into their countries than we do in this legislation. That is a simple fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo what we have is a watered-down version. It\u2019s watered down because the Government places more interest in its survival as a coalition\u2014although New Zealand First\u2019s position is completely unable to be understood in this circumstance\u2014all because the Green Party has stuck their head up and said, \u201CThis is what we want, and this is our price for staying involved.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo, when we see a bill that says Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill and we read the purpose, we have to read behind that purpose to find out what can actually be done, what can be done to control those people who come into this country. Well, there\u2019s a list that we\u2019re going to discuss in the next part; so I won\u2019t go on to that. But what it says in this first part here is that none of those conditions need to be put in place. They are not exhaustive, it says, and they are not particularly\u2014meaning that they must not be always used in every case. So we can have people coming into this country, they can have a control order put on them, but there will be no provision for that person to be confined to one particular part of the country. They can go off wherever they like. Of course, they don\u2019t have to be monitored for 24 hours, just whenever they want, up to 12 hours, I understand. Then, of course\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229625b7ae5f714db499792b4764c8658e\u0022\u003ERt Hon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, not allowed any more than 12 hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bf832c2e989486eb03d3401ef5ee820\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s right. No one is allowed to monitor them for more than 12 hours. Well, what do they think they\u2019re going to do in those other 12 hours if they\u2019ve got evil intent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe other point I\u2019d make here too is that, when it comes to things like electronic monitoring, if there is no control over where a person can go, what happens when they move out of range, no longer under other monitoring. They don\u2019t have to report in on a weekly basis, or a fortnightly basis, or a monthly basis. They can do whatever they like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo it is a very, very weak bill and almost denies the fact that we do have a number of people who might be in the category of returning terrorists\u2014you can\u2019t talk too much about that\u2014but we also, of course, are slowly opening our borders to more and more people who come from countries where they could hide themselves in refugee numbers. I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262dddde884da4d7ea8290f39ca07713f\u0022\u003EHon Aupito William Sio\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281344563c3aa496eac60bbd05bfc7238\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Sio goes \u201COh!\u201D. \u201COh!\u201D he says. He\u2019s the same man who allowed his Government\u2014his Government sat in Cabinet\u2014to completely miss the boat and allow the country he was born in to suffer the measles epidemic at the moment. So you sigh all you like, Mr Sio. The reality is that this is a very, very weak bill. This gives the benefit of the doubt to terrorists who turn up on the doorstep. It virtually says that, look, we\u2019re going shake your hand, we\u2019re going hold you here for a couple of hours, and see what we can do. We might have to put a control order on you because that\u2019s what we\u2019ll tell the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd7d43da9d3446abb1a5abee3edbabce\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Gerry, sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022803dd64bc50e4b429c4a4b6c215ba4fd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! You use his whole name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296f23761b6c446348af671719853a802\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u201COh, they\u2019re under a control order.\u201D But it\u2019ll be a meaningless exercise and have absolutely no effect on the efforts of those people to perpetrate the terrorism that they want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo here we have a Government that actually\u2014we also know it\u2019s here. It was brought in very suddenly because they\u2019re a Government in trouble, out of step with New Zealanders, and this definitely proves it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022956700ea30254fbaada8cc61ea3ba762\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022956700ea30254fbaada8cc61ea3ba762\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take any more speakers, I know we have relaxed the rule on \u201Cyou\u201D and are trialling that, but the way that was used then is not in order. So just cool it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00225e3a2613945c472aa1b2c3f45d109fd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e3a2613945c472aa1b2c3f45d109fd9\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wish to just respond to some of the continued assertions by members opposite in relation to this bill. It is in relation to the purpose of the bill, clause 3, which sets out the objectives of it\u2014the purpose of it\u2014which is to protect the public from terrorism, to prevent engagement in terrorism-related activities in the country, and to support the relevant person\u2019s reintegration into New Zealand, or rehabilitation, or both. There are two principal points I want to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f288e9036731452bb191c29dbf34bb0c\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve sold your soul.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221394ffcb56ea4b098eff1401376ae26a\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The first is this: we should remember the origins of this bill and its objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ad350fb8c3e4a2688dc729de7b686ee\u0022\u003EHon Iain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. The member Mark Mitchell said, \u201CYou\u2019ve sold your soul.\u201D I expect you to pull him up in the same way that you pulled me up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022024f3222439f43dfa0a23f8c5846b035\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise, I did not hear that. If the member did say that, he\u2019ll stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b90adb31dd5d4bf8aed5269559ed2bd3\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: I said, \u201CYou sold your soul\u201D, Madam Chair, but I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d43e0828617a46879131b8b9eda4b56e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, I think, in fairness, that is in the same vein.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe94a5b06e1c489b8dd65a5f197b8edf\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: He withdrew and apologised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d093aea5dd4b37906356d6f864d683\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Did you withdraw and apologise? He did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a5cd2c501be42d19eaba483d5bcf66e\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. So the origin is this: the issue of returning foreign terrorist fighters has been known about for some time. It\u2019s not the only thing that\u2019s been known about. The problems with the Terrorism Suppression Act have been known about since 2007\u20142007. This piece of legislation has been so problematic the police basically gave up on it and said, \u201CWe can\u2019t enforce it. We can\u2019t do things under it.\u201D The Government of nine years from 2008 had the opportunity to fix this legislation up, and you know what they did? You know how many changes they made to it? Absolutely none, and they come here now and lecture this committee on how to make the legislation much better. They did nothing. They have nothing to offer this House on preventing terrorism abroad and preventing people who have committed terrorist activity abroad coming here and how to keep New Zealanders safe. They have nothing to contribute on that. They are totally morally bankrupt when it comes to lecturing this House on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca46142f6b18499eaa92840411170aa0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! I appreciate that there\u2019s some strong feelings, but I\u2019d actually ask the Minister to address the bill. We\u2019ve had almost two minutes now, and I would like him to talk to the bill in front of the committee. That\u2019s what this process is for, and the role of the Minister in the chair is there to answer questions and explain what his piece of legislation is around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221066e74af868422ab6ab30299e355858\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m responding to the assertions made by members opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe other assertion made was that, in developing the bill and, no doubt, establishing its objectives, there was a meeting between myself and members of the Opposition, and it was suggested\u2014it was asserted\u2014that it was a meeting involving instructions and ultimatums. Now, I have to agree with the Hon Gerry Brownlee: that\u2019s exactly what happened. It\u2019s exactly what the Leader of the Opposition spent the meeting doing\u2014tabled a set of claims and said, \u201CWe must have that.\u201D So we went through it bit by bit, we adjourned the meeting, and within the hour my office got back to them and said, \u201CHere are some things we can agree on.\u201D And the response was \u201CWe want more. That\u2019s not good enough.\u201D So there was no willingness at all, and having publicly said they would support it, then said they were doubtful about it, then said they might support it, and then said they wouldn\u2019t support it, I gave up with them. They can\u2019t be relied on. So developing a piece of legislation to achieve the objectives set out in clause 3 was not going to be done with members opposite, because they just want to play politics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo we went back into the Government and we said you know what? To all the parties in Government, you\u2019re in Government now. National security is the responsibility of Government, and we have to keep New Zealanders safe. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing. That\u2019s what we\u2019ve done. It is a great pity that members opposite cannot bring themselves to fulfil their responsibilities as a large party in this Parliament and look to the interests of New Zealanders first and look to the interests of the security and safety of New Zealanders first, because they would rather play politics. That is disappointing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut the reality is that the purpose set out in clause 3 of this bill will be fully fulfilled by the rest of the content of this bill. As we get through the rest of the debate tonight, we will see, and I\u2019ll respond to the assertions made by the Hon Mark Mitchell, although in relation to Part 2, when we come on to Part 2, because that\u2019s very important. The scheme of the Act is very important, and what it does will be very important, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI remain totally confident that the bill will do the job that it has set out to do, which is to keep New Zealanders safe in the face of those who are entitled to return here from conflict zones where they have gone to engage in combat and conflict and terrorist activity and in other activity with an ideological, philosophical, or religious cause. Those people do pose a risk. That risk is rising, and we have to respond. This Government has responded. It\u2019d be nice to have done it with the cooperation of members opposite, but they\u2019ve fudged and mudged and faffed and fiffed around so that it is simply not possible. They are a disgrace. They\u2019re an embarrassment to their own. They will get over this generation of failures, but we will get there. But we have to act. The Government has to act. All parties in Government have taken the responsibility of being in Government, discharging their responsibilities in relation to national security, clearly set out in the objectives of this bill, and this bill will do the job that is set of it. I look forward to the rest of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022af13bb13952449859656884409a42926\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af13bb13952449859656884409a42926\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wasn\u2019t planning to take a call, but after listening to that utterly vacuous and disingenuous contribution from the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f9fdcebb55341189438b06ec21730ab\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266f115b84f354033a8e54471ac0d4a87\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I have to respond. Absolutely no facts, as the Hon Gerry Brownlee has just said. To accuse the current Opposition, the National Party, of lacking a commitment to security issues and of behaving in a disgraceful manner is so far from the truth that it has to be refuted. The fact of the matter is that there is no party in this Parliament that has a prouder record in defending the security of this nation\u2014absolutely no party that has a prouder record than the National Party. The Minister in the chair knows that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair also knows that he wanted initially to have the support of the National Party, but after he said, \u201CDo it my way. Be reasonable. There is no other way. I\u2019m not interested in negotiating with you, I\u2019m not interested in compromise; I simply want you to do it my way, for you to lie down, roll over, be a poodle in the corner.\u201D, well, the National Party said that isn\u2019t good enough. At that point, the Minister said, \u201CWell, I don\u2019t have to deal with you. I\u2019ll go and talk to the Greens, and instead I will compromise till the day is long. I will do all sorts of things that I would never consider doing if I was really going to take a responsible approach to national security.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EAnd isn\u2019t it interesting that the Minister\u2019s head is suddenly down? He has stood up for the last five minutes and lambasted the National Party Opposition, he\u2019s accused us of all sorts of disgraceful things, and now, suddenly, he\u2019s more interested in what\u2019s on his phone. Well, Minister, I say to you, you did not negotiate in good faith. You certainly did not negotiate with the National leader or senior figures in our caucus in a way that was open and honest and upfront. Instead, what you did was say, \u201CI\u2019m not interested in anything that the National Party puts forward.\u201D, because the National Party had a number of very clear lines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI say again that there is no party with a prouder, stronger record in the defence of the Realm than the New Zealand National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022affef5b625e64941b552810a09ef0a53\u0022\u003EHon Aupito William Sio\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, say it with some conviction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df210e34a65d4668a1a918c350c01da1\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s one of the reasons why I am so proud to be a member of this caucus\u2014and the Hon Aupito William Sio may wish to call out an inane interjection, but he knows that that is correct, and, more importantly, so do people listening to this debate, because it comes down to the fact that the Minister spoke a moment ago about those who are entitled to return to our shores. That was the phrase that sticks in my memory from the Minister\u2019s contribution: \u201Cthose who are entitled to return to our shores.\u201D Well, I hope that he was listening to the Hon Gerry Brownlee\u2019s contribution a moment ago, and, in particular, those who are listening, watching TV or on the radio, will have listened to what was being said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb3693595aba43bd868cde5433ec178d\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ll be disgusted with you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a64763c0ec22463ba58c1bdf609fe7ec\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, isn\u2019t this fascinating? We now have the Hon Clare Curran telling me that to side with the Hon Gerry Brownlee in saying we don\u2019t want this person who was so misnamed as the \u201CBumbling Jihadi\u201D coming back to our country and threatening and imperilling the safety of New Zealanders\u2014the Hon Clare Curran thinks it\u2019s disgusting for me to say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c167d572419749b2a96db5cbb111bae3\u0022\u003EHon Clare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think that member is disgusting, and particularly that one there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022722f514be2024d94a1b326cc2e793cbc\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would make the point to her that\u2014OK, so now I am disgusting. I have no idea why the Minister thinks that, other than her visceral hatred of the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EBut the point I am making is that New Zealanders need to be protected from people who have been radicalised overseas and who have gone to the extent, as Gerry Brownlee said, of destroying their passports after making very, very serious threats against New Zealanders, and only when they discover that the world has changed, that the security situation has changed and suddenly it is no longer convenient to be incarcerated in one of those countries, \u201CI would like to play the card of the victim and to be portrayed as the bumbling jihadi.\u201D Well, it is absolutely disgraceful for anybody to accept that description. That man is seriously dangerous, and he imperils the safety of this nation. The very least we should do is have legislation that protects New Zealanders against him and others of a like mind, should they ever be returned to our shores.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThis legislation doesn\u2019t cut it. This legislation is weak and ineffective. There are so many holes in it you could drive a bus through it, and, if it is enacted as a result of this very weak process, we will be worse off in our security legislation, not better off. I am desperately disappointed, having been a member of this House for 11 years, that I can\u2019t support a security measure for, I think, the first time in my years as an MP. But I can\u2019t, because I will not imperil the safety of New Zealanders. I will not kowtow to the very weak demands that are being made by this Government\u2019s coalition partners. This is a seriously flawed bill. The very least that could be done is for the Government to adopt the Supplementary Order Papers that are being advanced by the Opposition to strengthen the measure. Should they do that, there may be some hope for it, but, at the moment, it is hopeless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2034d39305d41b1a898277790695d86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2034d39305d41b1a898277790695d86\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Simon O\u2019Connor. Before I do, this is Part 1 we\u2019re on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022130d830e9ee343f9866cb6196fde6970\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022130d830e9ee343f9866cb6196fde6970\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E It sure is. Not that I wish to overly affirm it. This definitely is Part 1. I sort of want to pick up on two things which do affect the purpose. Fundamentally, and we\u2019ve heard it from all sides of the House, we want unanimity around matters of national security, and I certainly sit on that side. It\u2019s with a certain reluctance that I do find myself opposed to this bill. There\u2019s been a lot of talk as well of concerns about when this bill should have started, how it should have started, legislation in the past, and even how it\u2019s been handled more recently. I\u2019m not actually particularly interested in that, because the matter at hand is the bill itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe fundamental problem that we have is ultimately twofold and begins to manifest itself in Part 1 through the purposes. The first is that, by passing this legislation as it\u2019s currently drafted and with the purposes and other elements including age\u2014and I\u2019ll touch on that in a moment\u2014ultimately, it, I fear, creates a false sense of security: the sense that this will actually achieve an enhanced security arrangement for New Zealanders. In short, it doesn\u2019t, and I hope I might be able to illustrate why that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo I suppose the first question to the Minister is: if this passes\u2014and, you know, this is a democracy; it\u2019s a simple numbers game\u2014will there be a move to change the bill as quickly as necessary? As I say, one of my concerns is that, if it passes with these gaps, with these problems, we sort of sit back and New Zealanders sit back and think it\u2019s all fine\u2014we\u2019re all good now. The problem that\u2019s going to come is, ultimately\u2014and it has been one of my concerns through the select committee process\u2014the little gaps we\u2019ve created are exactly the gaps that terrorists like to exploit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EMaybe I could put it this way to the Minister. While there\u2019s a low probability of things going wrong in terms of those gaps\u2014yes, we should know every person coming through. Our intelligence services do an incredible job. There\u2019s a low probability someone\u2019s going to turn up at the border. There\u2019s a low probability they\u2019re going to be under 18 years of age. However, low probabilities also come in this case with high risks. If we, as a House, as a Parliament, and, if I might respectfully say, as a Government, get this wrong, the risks are enormous\u2014the risks are enormous. That\u2019s what\u2019s weighed on my shoulders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI think one of the reasons why, from my side, we\u2019ve got a bit of an issue around the purposes of the Act\u2014all three are perfectly fine. The fundamental problem, I think, for this side is that clause 3(c), \u201Cto support the relevant person\u2019s integration\u201D\u2014because of the arrangement with the Greens to get the necessary votes\u2014is and has become sort of the paramount consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe Green Party\u2019s amendments\u2014and I\u2019ll get to one of them in Schedule 2 at the moment, because I understand it\u2019s referenced in Part 1, puts far too many rights on the returning offender or terrorist. I do have a problem with the Green Party\u2019s stance on a number of issues, and, when it comes to the security of the Realm and intelligence services, I have not forgotten that it is the Green Party which has long advocated for the abolition of our security services. Even through the select committee process\u2014I suppose, if you want to be illustrative\u2014what is put here as the purpose of the bill as incidental to the main purposes has, by the agreement with the Green Party and the changes put forward and the rejection of the National Party changes, effectively, become the main purpose. In other words, focusing on the returning terrorist\u2019s integration, their supposed rights, and due process, as the Green\u2019s understand it, trumps, if you will, the desire to protect the public from terrorism. That\u2019s a problem that I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, keeping within Part 1 for now, the Minister might want it to be up to him\u2014because I am anticipating some calls, potentially from his own side. I\u2019ve noted they\u2019ve made no calls so far. They have just got offended, which is very \u201Cleft\u201D. But to just touch on the designated terrorist entity element. It came up a lot in committee. We were very, very clear, and I hope the Minister might affirm this: when we talk about terrorism, it\u2019s very specific groups that are known, acknowledged, named, and are listed under the Terrorism Suppression Act. I mention that because a number of people, including some submitters but certainly some members of committee from the governing side, sort of got a bit caught up that the definition of terrorism should be much, much wider to groups they found just offensive. It\u2019s probably an important distinction I wouldn\u2019t mind\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aa31a2ffa064035a8e9b7d14c875b07\u0022\u003ELouisa Wall\u003C/span\u003E: White supremacists, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022711e216769204f25be2b9c0f1619d045\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, someone calls out \u201CWhite supremacists\u201D, and it\u2019s quite right. But the problem we\u2019ve got\u2014and I need to; it\u2019s why I\u2019m asking the Minister. It\u2019s not that these are not issues, but white supremacism is a broader concept; it\u2019s not a specific group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EWhether we agree with it or not, I think it\u2019s really important\u2014and if the Minister wishes to discuss it\u2014this bill deals with very particular, named groups. Going to much broader concepts, such as white nationalism, cannot be controlled by this. In fact, it leads us down a rather dangerous path. To the point that we can find groups\u2014be they jihadists or otherwise\u2014that we can be very specific about, that is helpful, but I think it would be useful to just draw out why it\u2019s important to have that designated terrorist entity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAlso, the whole fact of terrorism itself\u2014again, the definition as via the Terrorism Suppression Act. It is very, very specific, and I suppose, again, I\u2019m just encouraging the Minister to affirm that, because this bill is not to be used, one way or the other, to try and capture a whole group of people or sets of thoughts which some people would define as terrorism. We\u2019ve already seen in this country the attempt to shut down free speech. Again, I know the Minister is on this side in terms of the way this has been drafted, so I just want that affirmed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, clause 6\u2014the meaning of relevant person. It\u2019s been one of the bottom lines for National. I\u2019m imploring, encouraging, the Minister to take on board a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) on the Table, I suspect, in the name of Mark Mitchell, to have that age lowered\u2014SOP 419. Eighteen is too old\u201418, Minister, is too old. I touched on it very briefly in an earlier speech. We\u2019ve had people overseas who are under 18 years of age who have been engaged in terrorist activity. We had some very good feedback from Oranga Tamariki. They believe they are capable of being able to work with these young people if they were to come back\u2014stress \u201Cif\u201D. We wouldn\u2019t want\u2014again, I suppose, in the low-probability, high-risk framework that I am underpinning this contribution with\u2014to get that wrong. Oranga Tamariki deal with some pretty challenging young people out there, and comparisons could be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe second, and probably more fundamental, problem I\u2019ve got is that for the Oranga Tamariki Act to come into being, evidence is required. They have to show that this young person, or under-18-year-old, coming back is a threat to themselves, is a threat to others, has major psychological issues, and so forth. I suppose it\u2019s been one of my contentions, which may or may not have driven officials mad, that that evidence may not be there. In fact, this young person, while being a terrorist, may present as completely and utterly sane. I think it\u2019s one of the great mistakes that we often make\u2014and not everybody in this House\u2014to think that people who are involved in jihadist or terrorist activities are lunatics. Some are, but some are not\u2014they are incredibly rational and incredibly calm and they are following a set of beliefs, wrong as they might be, in a very consistent way. So there\u2019s that concern that, actually, the young person will come back and with a clever lawyer they\u2019ll be able to say, actually, the Act doesn\u2019t apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like to see that changed and SOP 419 adopted to lower the age. It\u2019s even possible that we might be able to put provisos in that, if it is a person between, say, 14 and 18 years of age, a control order applies and there\u2019s mandatory engagement with Oranga Tamariki. It\u2019s not that we\u2019re going to be throwing them into prison. In fact\u2014and this is one of the ironies, and Gerry Brownlee touched on it\u2014there is not a clear array of what those controls are. But I implore and encourage the Minister to consider dropping the age or, at the very least, to explain to the committee why he wishes to hold to this, particularly when we look at other countries. I believe\u2014and I\u2019m happy to be corrected\u2014the likes of Australia, the UK, and Canada have lower ages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EIn my last minute, I just want to draw attention to the tabled amendment which is making a single word change to Schedule 2. Am I right to think, Madam Chair, that that does fit in Part 1 because it\u2019s referenced earlier on? I don\u2019t want to\u2014well, correct me if I\u2019m wrong as I carry on, but I think it does apply. Schedule 2 is referenced in Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c99f169cb43246a39d3d83027a048f0c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022379f3b49a62a4763bafdb734555e0fcf\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It is? Fantastic. Thank you. Long and the short: this tabled amendment is symbolic in that it\u2019s a Green Party idea to put in the words \u201Cposes a real risk of engaging in terrorism-related activities.\u201D It\u2019s in \u201Coverview of decisions in making control order\u201D in Schedule 2. The long and the short: it has been a small contention but an important one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ENational feels that we should just talk about these people, these terrorists, posing a risk. The Greens, as I understand it, have become obsessed with the word \u201Creal\u201D\u2014that it\u2019s a real risk. What it effectively does, in my remaining 17 seconds, is raise the threshold, raises the bar of proof that\u2019s required. They\u2019re not now just a risk but they have to be proven to be a real risk. Again, I\u2019m no lawyer, and they\u2019re cleverer than I, but they can find their ways around that. I think that does not enhance the safety of the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002228c84d9b6e1b47cfa3b97c6f69f4a8e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228c84d9b6e1b47cfa3b97c6f69f4a8e9\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to, first of all\u2014out of respect for the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, and hope that he will show the same respect to us on this side of the House\u2014respond to the comments that he made. His opening comment was a backhanded insult to me, intimating that my contribution was not intellectual. I\u2019ve now listened very closely to the Minister responding to the issues that we\u2019ve raised, and it\u2019s flimflam.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been no intellectual effort at all by the Minister in the chair to actually respond to the issues that we\u2019ve raised. I\u2019d ask that he would do that, and I\u2019m going to go back to my original contribution. Before you\u2019re in the chair, I\u2019m going to ask some very simple questions. Number one: if we have someone\u2014and the Hon Gerry Brownlee highlighted this, too\u2014if we have a returning Kiwi arrive at our border that we haven\u2019t already been notified of, which the officials and everyone said may not be likely but it could happen\u2014when you\u2019re dealing with national security, you make sure that you close every hole and every gap. Unlikely is not good enough. For us, it is that we\u2019re going to make sure that we do everything we can to make sure that even the most unlikely scenario that may emerge, we\u2019re prepared and we\u2019re able to deal with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo my question is this: if we have someone arrive on our border and we weren\u2019t notified or we become aware of their situation when they arrive, how are they going to be held? If Customs are going to help hold them, under what authority? If they can hold them for only four hours and it takes longer than that to get a control order in place, then how are the police going to be able to surveil and monitor them? Because they\u2019ve said very clearly that they\u2019re very concerned and worried that there will be a gap there and they won\u2019t be able to do that. And why\u2014why\u2014has the Minister not listened to our police when they said that they would welcome the amendment that I spoke to him about right at the very start, in the first meeting that we had, when I said, \u201CWe have to give our agencies the ability to be able to detain someone at the border until we can ascertain exactly what their intent is, what their background is, and that gives the High Court time to get a control order in place.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHow simple is that? That\u2019s looking after the country\u2019s security. I get sent here from Rodney, from my electorate\u2014the officials do a very good job; I want to acknowledge them. They advise us. I will make my own decisions on what I think we need to do for our country and the safety of our country, all right? Because I\u2019ve got kids in my electorate that get on the bus every day, that go to school; their parents want them to be safe. I\u2019ve got people that go out on the weekend to a restaurant. They don\u2019t want to be exposed to the type of attacks that we see around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s up to us right here, right now to be vigilant, because I\u2019ll tell you something: the minute you become complacent, Minister, the minute you say, \u201COh, well, I think it\u2019s good enough.\u201D, you\u2019ve handed it over to the Greens. The Greens are leading it. No one in this country trusts the Greens with our national security. They haven\u2019t supported a bill in this House for 20 years to do with our national security, and their immediate reaction to this was to say that it was dog-whistling. You\u2019ve had to dumb down this bill to make concessions for them because you wouldn\u2019t work with us. It\u2019s a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBy the way, one of the comments, Minister, that you made\u2014and I\u2019m going to address that now\u2014is you said that, over on this side of the House, we\u2019re fantasists; this is a fantasy that this could arise. You\u2019re talking about\u2014you\u2019ve got two defence Ministers sat on this side of the Chamber and a Government that deployed our troops into Iraq with a serious job of disabling the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. You\u2019ve been up there with me. The Minister has been up there with the Hon Gerry Brownlee and myself to see the work that they\u2019ve done. They expect us to do our job. Our defence forces up there that have made a huge sacrifice and done an outstanding job that we should all be proud of as a nation expect us to do our stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EDo I know anything about the threat? I spent 10 years in the Middle East on the front lines dealing with the war on terrorism. I\u2019ve worked with the Americans, the British, the Japanese, the Danes, the Australians\u2014their defence forces, their intelligence agencies. I\u2019ve worked with the UN. I\u2019ve been to Somalia. I\u2019ve been to Darfur. I didn\u2019t see the Minister in Darfur recovering UN truck drivers taken by the Janjaweed. I haven\u2019t seen him sat in a room getting briefings about the threats from al-Qaeda or al-Shabaab. The threats are real. Don\u2019t for one minute think that we have a cloak of invincibility in New Zealand; we don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like the Minister to stand and I\u2019d like him to give us a considered and an intellectual response to the questions that I have raised, because they are real and they are a huge gap that you could drive not a small car through; you could drive a truck through it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EOn this side of the Chamber, we are not going to accept someone coming back into our country with the ability to walk straight out into the community when we know they\u2019ve already been involved in terror activity and we know that they are a threat to law-abiding Kiwis. I\u2019d ask the Minister to stand and make an intellectual response to the issues that I\u2019ve raised. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002275231f4a56ac4f11b8f8caa31eae46fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275231f4a56ac4f11b8f8caa31eae46fa\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In my contribution, I\u2019d like to focus on the meaning of \u201Cengagement in terrorism \u2026 activities\u201D. That\u2019s a particular phrase used in clause 7. The significance of that in the context of our debate on Part 1 is that what we have is a number of criteria, a number of items in a checklist, any one of which needs to be satisfied in order for a terrorism-related activity to be deemed to exist by our appropriate authorities. I\u2019ll just go through each of those, and then my intention is to link it to clause 6, which talks about the meaning of a \u201Crelevant person\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo the first thing to note is that the definition or the checklist of potential terrorism-related activities is defined in terms of the purposes of the Act. We\u2019ve talked about those already. So that\u2019s the background, and so it is that we see it in clause 7(2), any of the following: \u201Cplanning or other preparations to carry out the terrorism, whether it is actually carried out or not:\u201D\u2014and that\u2019s a sensible way of formulating the fact that something might be planned and not yet executed but nevertheless represent a threat by the potential that is inherent in that type of planning and preparation. The next is \u201Ca credible threat to carry out the terrorism\u201D\u2014again\u2014\u201Cwhether it is actually carried out or not:\u201D, and then \u201Can attempt to carry out the terrorism:\u201D or, of course, \u201Cthe carrying out of the terrorism.\u201D So all these different activities are relevant in the context of what we think about as terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo it is that we then look across to the meaning of \u201Crelevant person\u201D. I would just challenge the committee to consider whether or not a person should be defined as relevant in relation to their age, as opposed to their capacity to carry out the particular activities that define terrorism, as we\u2019ve already just heard. My submission to the committee, to the nation, and most particularly to the Minister is that if a person is capable of carrying out those particular things that we define as terrorism, then they are capable of being thought of as a terrorist for the purpose of the Act, for the provisions then to apply that they should be detained for four hours\u2014or, we would say, longer. We would give them a three-day stay, or up to a three-day stay if that amount of time was necessary. And so, given that intention that we carry out the purpose of the Act to protect the New Zealand public from terrorism and those particular acts that constitute it, it should be that alone that is the basis for us considering what a relevant person is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAccordingly, we shouldn\u2019t look at clause 6(1) and see that the relevant person is, first of all, a person who is 18 years old or older, who may be coming to New Zealand, and so forth. The age of the person is irrelevant in the context of their ability to carry out the acts we are talking about. Now, I appreciate that it might be that it\u2019s less likely that someone who is very young will carry out a credible threat, but that much is already contained. That\u2019s inherent in the definition of the fact that it must be a credible threat to carry out the terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo that aspect that we would say, \u201CWell, it would be absurd to say, for example, that a five-year-old should be subject to the Act, because a five-year-old is not going to have a credible threat.\u201D\u2014well, that\u2019s fine, because they\u2019re not going to meet the definition of a terrorist activity or terrorism-related activity by the black and white letter of the law as we see later in the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIt might be, as well, that the Minister would consider an amendment to the Act that says, \u201CWell, instead of having a brightline cut off on one\u2019s 18th birthday, it might be that prior to that a person would still be applicable to the Act, but for their age to be taken into account in the way that the Act is administered.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not certain that I feel that that would necessarily be the strongest or most robust way of handling the matter, but I would say that at least it would take into account the fact that a person is young and that the justice system does recognise such a thing as a youth offender or some other description of a person who is not yet 18. So, by doing that, we wouldn\u2019t exclude them from the whole jurisdiction of the Act, but we could say that their age is somehow irrelevant still in the way that they\u2019re treated, but they\u2019re not excluded entirely by that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s really the point that I wanted to make. With it goes the related question, really, of whether the Minister would contemplate an amendment, whether it\u2019s a Supplementary Order Paper that\u2019s already been tabled or something along similar lines, that allows those who are younger than 18 but nevertheless can carry out a credible threat to be treated at least in some way under this law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022eae6881a174d4084b0cbb18585648607\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eae6881a174d4084b0cbb18585648607\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d just like to speak quickly to two Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs), 418 and 419, that are in my name. I would like to make another appeal to the Minister: it\u2019s never too late to be able to sit down, talk about, and make changes to this bill so that we can all be satisfied it\u2019s strong enough to put the protection in place that we need as a nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThese SOPs relate to age. My colleague Chris Penk just made a very good contribution on this. The reality of this is that all these Supplementary Order Papers are doing is bringing us in line with Australia and the UK. Australia had to go back and change their legislation because they had a threat from a 15-year-old and they realised that their legislation wouldn\u2019t capture that eventuality. The sad reality, and it is very sad, is that 14-, 15-, and 16-year-olds can be radicalised. They can actually go with their families overseas and be put into that environment\u2014an environment like the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)\u2014and they can be radicalised. Unfortunately, they are a danger and they are dangerous and they do present a danger. We see that, sadly, in New Zealand with actual crime, serious assaults, robberies, and even murders committed by juveniles, 14 through to 17 years old. We know that they do have, sadly, the capacity to kill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo, something short on SOP 419, this provision would be for a control order for a 14-year-old to be for \u201Cup to 6 months, up until the age of 18, where the 2-year duration would take effect. Lowering the age to 14 would align the Bill with the Australian legislation. Australia introduced control order legislation for 16-year-olds and over, but in 2016 reduced the age threshold to 14 due to a case of a 15-year-old being radicalised.\u201D, which I mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo I would appeal to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little. I have appealed to New Zealand First on this and in particular the defence Minister, the Hon Ron Mark, because I honestly felt that, although we disagree on a lot of things, his service overseas, in particular in his own service in our defence force, actually gave him an insight into the types of threats that do exist and are real and that we do face. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI\u2019m disappointed, because I know that he is handling this bill for New Zealand First, that he\u2019s made no major contribution other than a brief 30-second contribution yesterday. I know that he feels he\u2019s a great entrepreneur, but I can tell you that he\u2019s currently our defence Minister. Our New Zealand Defence Force have made a huge sacrifice for us in their deployment to Camp Taji in Iraq. I want to acknowledge them and the outstanding work that they\u2019ve done and the major contribution they\u2019ve made in the dismantling and defeat of ISIS and the caliphates in both Iraq and Syria. They are watching. They understand. They know what the threat is. They know how they think. They know how they operate. Speak to any of our returning New Zealand Defence Force personnel that\u2019ve been up there. They will tell you that there is a genuine threat and that we\u2019re not immune to it. Their expectation is that we put proper legislation in place. I would expect the defence Minister to be supportive of the changes that we want to make to make this bill stronger. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EJust very quickly on Supplementary Order Paper 418, \u201CThis Supplementary Order Paper amends the Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill by amending clause 6 to ensure control orders will capture those convicted of a terrorist offence in New Zealand.\u201D This, again, directly related to what the Australians and British have experienced. \u201CThe Bill as introduced does not consider those convicted of a terrorism-related offence in New Zealand as a relevant person to which a control order will apply.\u201D We disagree. We think that this bill should be able to respond to an internal threat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe amendment will include: \u201Ca relevant person on whom a control order is to be imposed is a person who has been convicted in New Zealand of an offence relating to a terrorist act. This amendment would make the legislation align with the Australian version. The Government has assured the Opposition that a similar change is coming with a second tranche of anti-terrorism laws; however, we believe this cannot wait,\u201D. There\u2019s an opportunity now. The Minister alluded to the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002 and the changes that he wants to make. There\u2019s a chance right now with his own bill that\u2019s in this committee to make that change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00225be0b9cbcac94e1ebf0623c49fa82fda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225be0b9cbcac94e1ebf0623c49fa82fda\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Resuming on clause 7 of this, Part 1, I just wanted to make a couple of comments before I complete my contributions on this part in relation to what\u2019s described as facilitating or supporting terrorism. The reason this is relevant\u2014or the context, if you will\u2014is that a person engages in terrorism-related activities if they do, among other things, facilitate or support the carrying out of terrorism. It\u2019s helpful, I think, that the bill talks about terrorism being facilitated or supported only if that person knows or ought reasonably to know that terrorism is facilitated or supported. So this is useful to have constructive knowledge as part of the requirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s helpful from an evidential point of view. It might be that it\u2019s difficult for the New Zealand authorities to prove that a person actually did know that they were facilitating or supporting, but if it\u2019s possible to say that they should have known, presumably given the circumstances and presumably given their level of intellect\u2014maybe competence, as we might say in the law, maybe involvement with terror-related groups\u2014if it\u2019s the case that we can say with some certainty that someone ought to have known that they were, effectively, supporting or facilitating terrorism, then that\u2019s enough under the bill. I think that\u2019s a worthwhile thing for the bill to do in setting a threshold whereby we can draw a line and say that these activities are proscribed by the Act and therefore the provisions to protect New Zealanders apply at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn the same clause, we see that it\u2019s not necessary, however, that specific terrorism needs to be known about by the person who\u2019s said to be a facilitator or supporter. I presume that this means something along the lines of: if a person is a member of an organisation that\u2019s known to carry out terror activities, then notwithstanding that they don\u2019t know or may not have known that a particular terrorist attack would take place at a particular time, in a particular way, none the less they will be caught by the provisions of this Act. So, again, I think that\u2019s a helpful thing. If the Minister\u2019s got any comment to make about the way that I\u2019m interpretating that\u2014excuse me, interpreting that, as to whether I\u2019m correct or incorrect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da3b469eb2aa432980a39e794bd02fe7\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022598a8c17096647ff9aa61cc17799ddd8\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I can see that my interpretation of the word \u201Cinterpret\u201D is incorrect and that\u2019s caused some amusement across the Chamber\u2014then I\u2019ll be happy to take feedback on any of those aspects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EJust to turn to clause 8 reasonably briefly and perhaps unexpectedly, we\u2019ve got a provision there entitled \u201CStatus of examples\u201D. It might seem an unusually technical provision for me to focus on, even if not atypical for me to focus on a technical example, but what we\u2019ve got there is not merely an exercise in statutory interpretation where we\u2019re saying an example used in the Act doesn\u2019t limit the provision. That\u2019s actually a significant thing because what it tells us is that we\u2019re concerned with a piece of legislation that does give examples. It does contemplate specific types of situations, but the fact that a provision will apply, regardless of whether it doesn\u2019t seem to be consistent with the examples given or not, really indicates the nature of what we are concerned with here, which is that terrorism has no particular shape that is fixed in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u201CTerrorism\u201D is, broadly speaking, an act, I suppose, of political violence, if you\u2019ll excuse the definition somewhat on the run\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e94c67a8ef224827a67024e2e84d16a1\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a fair interpretation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5a85cec4fc746a0ad1030000be8e1c2\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and it\u2019s not in accordance with the Act. It\u2019s a fair interpretation, I hear across the House, thank you\u2014well, from my side of the House, indeed, the Hon Tim Macindoe; I\u2019m no less an authority on language and law than the shadow Attorney-General. It shows that what we\u2019re concerned with here\u2014and this is relevant to the way that we want the law to operate\u2014is we don\u2019t always know what terrorism looks like, and its methods can be unexpected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a classic case of\u2014and this goes, again, to the way that it\u2019s interpreted and the mechanics of the thing; the unlikelihood or the likelihood or the certainty of it needing to be applied when someone comes into the country\u2014sometimes we know what we don\u2019t know but sometimes we don\u2019t know what we don\u2019t know. We know now that the things that we don\u2019t know will be known to us only when we do know them. So for that reason we need to be somewhat humble when we contemplate our ability as lawmakers to contemplate all the different situations that might arise, all the examples, and we shouldn\u2019t limit ourselves in making provisions that will apply in any situation whatsoever for the protection of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022efa501f5dccd4ea78062a20115f8ad0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efa501f5dccd4ea78062a20115f8ad0d\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229791f59385874c6496a450506db504f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229791f59385874c6496a450506db504f0\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E One of the interesting things that came up during the discussions in the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee\u2014particularly as the select committee\u2019s report was being put together\u2014was the strong suggestion from the Greens that the reason why they had insisted on the dilution of this bill to the almost nullity that it is now was because they did not want to see another situation arise like that endured by Ahmed Zaoui some years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ENow, many people will not know that name; there will be others who do recall that name. So he was a gentleman who came to New Zealand in the early 2000s and was detained because he did have Algerian Government convictions against him for engaging in terrorist activities, for being part of what was designated by them as a terrorist organisation. He had previously been an imam and he had stood for election in Algeria with a party that was known to be a fundamentalist Islamic group\u2014very, very fundamentalist. Now, he, eventually, after the civil war started in Algeria, fled the country to Europe. That\u2019s from where he made his way to New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200d78343894d43ea9b4139e266241256\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: On a fake passport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022308d66f288b648e19718c048b9b3f36b\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Now, he did come in on a fake passport, and he was detained here. It was a Labour Government in office at the time, and he was detained for quite a long number of years. Eventually, the New Zealand security service decided that perhaps the case they had against him was not as robust as it should be, and their objection to his being granted refugee status was removed. Eventually\u2014interestingly\u2014under a National Government, he got citizenship, and today he does live in New Zealand and is, for all intents and purposes, a law-abiding citizen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBut that circumstance was quite unique; it was one person. While there was no eventual proof that he was a terrorist threat to New Zealand, there was a discernible history that caused the caution and for the authorities, under a Labour Governmental, to arrest him and imprison him for quite a long period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo it seems ridiculous that we have a Labour-led Government now, who have New Zealand First\u2014the party that counts themselves as being a strong law and order party; mind you, they touted themselves as being the farmers\u2019 friend, that didn\u2019t last very long\u2014also agreeing with this odd position being taken by the Green Party. I think the real point here is that all we would want to see is a bill that dots the i\u2019s and crosses the t\u2019s and a bill that is not seen to give the benefit of the doubt to someone turning up at our borders, for whom there is at least some known proof that they have been part of a terrorist organisation, that they have been associated with terrorists, or that they have facilitated or supported terrorist activity. This bill simply is not strong enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aaf1fdfb7004f498ca26386f0fdab1b\u0022\u003ELouisa Wall\u003C/span\u003E: This would allow us to restrict Mark Taylor\u2019s movements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f96c3b0260944102abe4fc244576541f\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The whole of the situation around Mr Zaoui took years to resolve, but was it a lack of caution? Was Helen Clark\u2019s Government wrong to detain him? Now, Louisa Wall would now say, \u201CYes they were, we made a dreadful mistake, and so we shouldn\u2019t have done that, so now for anyone else that comes, we\u2019re going to give them the benefit of the doubt.\u201D More benefit of doubt than for deported New Zealanders from Australia\u2014unbelievable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8272830606041afbd55232c7afbc289\u0022\u003ELouisa Wall\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 14\u2014interim control order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a031163e36e44b28bb52111e0099bd1\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would invite the member who\u2019s calling out with almost unintelligible commentary to take a call. Stand up and defend the Government\u2019s position. There\u2019s no defence\u2014there\u2019s no defence. All we\u2019re getting is a constant sort of emotional response to the fact that the National Party hasn\u2019t done what it\u2019s told, and that\u2019s the problem here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EYou can clearly see that there are weaknesses and deficiencies that should be strengthened, and no discussion on those, just a sort of cursory, saying, \u201COh, well, we\u2019ll make one or two little changes.\u201D, but nothing substantial, and we still end up with the weak bill. We are not going to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 415 in the name of the Hon Andrew Little to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bffa861cb3724cb5aa1acac692b66449\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000624\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 418 in the name of the Hon Mark Mitchell to clause 6 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022452f1f233aa348bfb3b55817b26d9245\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000625\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 419 in the name of the Hon Mark Mitchell to clause 6 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002297df51cf7e9246cbbd5e34c6f0c24e33\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220423463dfd9040d1a60487467671c56b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226fcf825a1a304e88bb5c083d59645073\u0022\u003EPart 2  Control orders\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00222534bc2ecf434f038163a4f0f1a73246\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222534bc2ecf434f038163a4f0f1a73246\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Colleagues, that brings us to Part 2, debate on clauses 11 to 34, and I say to the Hon Mark Mitchell that that\u2019s where his questions to the Minister properly lie. I call the honourable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256e344264d434ddaac1b87b255793b19\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Andrew Little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221560b3c0ae6a4606994ea706eaadf7a1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Andrew Little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00229770413735be43ebad44980ffe68b6ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229770413735be43ebad44980ffe68b6ce\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s late in the year, Madam Chair. We all understand that. This, Part 2, is the operative part and the critical part of the bill. It is the one that gives the court the power to make a control order on the application of the Commissioner of Police, and it is the Commissioner of Police who makes the application. One of the checks and balances on all this is that it is a High Court judge that issues the order. So the judge will look at all the evidence, the evidence of the risk that a particular person poses, the relevant person as defined in the Act, and that applies also the age restriction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI know members, admittedly in the previous part, raised questions about the age, and I\u2019ll repeat what I\u2019ve said to some members in my office and in other conversations and here in the House as well: we know we can count, really, on the fingers of one hand the people whom this will apply to immediately, bearing in mind that this piece of legislation is for an immediate purpose, during the course of a thorough review of the entire Terrorism Suppression Act and on which this House can expect more significant changes in the future. But right now, we know the risk that is being posed. We know the people who are most likely to be affected by this legislation if they try to cross the border, and none of them are anywhere near the age of 18. At least, those who are under 18 are nowhere near the age of it; for those who are over the age of 18, of course, the legislation will apply. So I don\u2019t think we need to trouble ourselves too much about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThen, clause 12 sets out the requirement to say whether it is an interim control order or a final control order. The significance there is that the whole scheme of this bill is that because we know who this is most likely going to apply to\u2014and even if they\u2019re not people we know now, they\u2019re people whom we are likely to know of in advance of their coming back; in advance of their crossing the border. So this allows for the Commissioner of Police to make or to seek an order before the person is even in the country\u2014before they return, before they cross the border. So the ability for the police to get ahead of that, make an order, persuade the judge, say that the safety of the community requires a number of constraints on this particular person\u2014that is there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThen, as soon as the person crosses the border, they are served with the order. The order applies immediately. They\u2019re then given advice about how they can review it and are given access to legal aid for all that as well. All of that is in here. Then, if there is a review of it and there is then a change to it or there is an order, that becomes a final order. That approach achieves, I think, or strikes, a very important balance, knowing that this is placing constraints on the liberty of a person who won\u2019t have been convicted of any crime, who is under suspicion, including very good suspicion, of committing terrorist acts abroad, as that is defined in the Terrorism Suppression Act, and who therefore poses a risk to the community. This strikes the right balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders want to know they are safe, but they don\u2019t want to live in a totalitarian country. They do want to know that there are appropriate safeguards, and this bill strikes the right balance in terms of those safeguards. Clause 16 sets out the range of requirements that may be imposed, and there\u2019s a reasonably extensive list of them. They are things about constraining someone\u2019s liberty. And I know members were somewhat cynical about anything that is about trying to rehabilitate, but if you look at international best practice\u2014and I think of even countries like Indonesia; if you want to know a country that is seriously grappling with terrorism, both domestically and returning foreign terrorist fighters, Indonesia is not a bad place to start. What is critical to their programme of dealing with returning foreign terrorist fighters is that there is deradicalisation, there is rehabilitation, and there is reintegration\u2014otherwise there wouldn\u2019t be any point in having this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe members opposite no doubt would just like to clap them in prison and with no safeguards at all. Well, actually, in a country that subscribes to the rule of law and the conventions and values that we do, we have to strike a balance between dealing with somebody who clearly poses a risk because of previous behaviour and actually upholding our basic values too. Yes, we want to put some constraints on it. We want to limit what they can do, where they can go, even to whom they can talk, but we want to give them a chance to rehabilitate and reintegrate. It\u2019s pretty clear that if that isn\u2019t achieved, if that\u2019s not possible, then there are measures that can continue to be taken, and that is that the orders can continue to be applied for a period of up to six years. Any breach of the order during that time is a criminal offence and will be subject and dealt with criminally, and then, of course, the person affected by the order goes into a different regime. All of those things are accounted for and provided for in the bill, and that is as it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere is provision for the service of the control order, and this takes account of the fact that the person whom it is about is unlikely to be in the country. If it is an order that applies to somebody who is in the country, then there is a process that covers that off as well. But I think we have to, in the circumstances in which this bill has been conceived, understand that both our intelligence and security agencies, and the police with their intelligence capabilities as well\u2014we are right across the risks and the threats that are posed to New Zealand, and this bill allows us to deal with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EUntil this bill turned up, we had no means of doing this. We knew that returning foreign terrorist fighters was a problem but had no means of dealing with it. So now we will have a means to deal with it, and that is why all members of the House should support it, because it gives our police, our authorities, the tools to deal with a rising threat that previously our legislation didn\u2019t allow to provide for\u2014and no one had done anything about it. No one had done anything about it until now. It was the right thing to do, and it is the right thing to do in this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EClause 21 provides for the information that has to be served with a control order. That also means that the person is advised on how they can challenge it or seek a review of it and how they can get access to assistance and advice to do that. Clause 22 allows the court to authorise entry to a place to serve the control order on a person who was affected by it. So the rest of the provisions there in this part deal with the mechanical aspects of that to make sure that all elements are covered off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis is about a regime that deals with people who we cannot capture under our criminal justice system. And I know\u2014and although it\u2019s been disposed of\u2014there was a provision that suggested it should apply to those who have committed a crime in New Zealand. People who commit a crime in New Zealand are already taken care of in our criminal justice system. This is to deal with people who have not been and cannot be processed under our criminal justice system, and provides a mechanism, a civil mechanism, that still allows us to place constraints on them, to put restrictions on them, so that they can change, be rehabilitated, but at the very least be kept safe from other people. That is the least we should do, and that is what we are doing, and that\u2019s what this bill provides for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThese provisions are very important, and they all hang together. They all add up to greater safety, greater safety for the community, security around a person who poses a risk, but actually a meaningful opportunity to deal with that person in a way that means that they can be reintegrated safely into the community. We do that already. We don\u2019t talk about it a lot, but there are people in communities who, with the benefit and the assistance and support of those communities, are undergoing deradicalisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOther countries are doing it because you have to do it; there\u2019s no point in allowing people to float around with the kinds of anti-social, antithetical, dangerous ideas that some do without having a means and a mechanism to provide assistance and support to reintegrate and rehabilitate back into the community. That is just as much a part of anything as it is about the constraining measures that are about keeping people safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo I have explained the general purport of this part of the bill. I look forward to other members\u2019 contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222e3010c0ba1b4e82a02f784b97cd7726\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e3010c0ba1b4e82a02f784b97cd7726\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Has the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, just told us that there have been radicalised New Zealanders returning to this country after being away in some circumstance and have now been quietly pushed into the community with the agreement of some communities around New Zealand? Because I haven\u2019t heard this; this was new today\u2014right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209dfe3d7c8b943e7bf9e4dfa74a8517c\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: No. The member\u2019s making that up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222be2b58dfa1e425593ee1461400c715e\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m just quoting what the member said. I\u2019m asking the Minister to clarify, because the whole speech sounded to me very much like he was saying that, although we know these people are criminals, because they haven\u2019t committed their crimes in New Zealand, we are going to have a law here that ensures that the New Zealand taxpayer makes a fair effort and goes to a reasonable cost to rehabilitate them. Well, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s a reasonable position at all. I don\u2019t understand how anyone can be comfortable with that, particularly when the conditions that are put out under clause 16 here, where the examples of requirements that might be put into a control order are listed, are somewhat caveated all the way through by the relevant person\u2014that should read \u201Ccriminal terrorist\u201D\u2014agreeing to some of these things and having the full capacity to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EParticularly we look at clause 16(p), which says, \u201C require that the relevant person, if they have given and not withdrawn their informed consent to do so, engage with specified rehabilitative services (for example, alcohol and drug treatment services).\u201D What does that mean? That if the person who is subject to a control order doesn\u2019t give their consent to seek treatment for their condition\u2014most likely it\u2019ll be a psychological condition; most likely it will be something that needs to be washed out of their brains because they have been radicalised\u2014if they don\u2019t consent, then apparently it doesn\u2019t stand. And it\u2019s backed up in clause 19, where it says, \u201CLimit on requiring relevant person\u201D\u2014the criminal terrorist\u2014\u201Cto engage with specific rehabilitative services (1) No relevant person\u201D\u2014read that as \u201Ccriminal terrorist\u201D\u2014\u201Cmay be made, or may remain, subject to a requirement of the kind stated in section 16(p) unless the relevant person\u2014(a) has been fully advised, by a person who is qualified to prescribe or provide the specified rehabilitative services, about their nature and their intended and likely effects and any known risks of engaging with them; and (b) is competent to make an informed choice and give informed consent to engaging with them\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo they have to give, stated in two places, informed consent to the condition that\u2019s applied by the courts. Now, if anyone was wondering whether or not this was a weak bill, this has to be the absolute convincing point. So the criminal terrorist turns up here; in four hours, there\u2019s a control order put on them, and one of those control orders states that they\u2019ve got to go through some sort of, what would you say, deradicalisation process\u2014apparently that\u2019s happening informally in the community at the moment; something new we learned tonight\u2014and they can\u2019t give their informed consent, then that\u2019s it. What sort of a protection is that for the New Zealand public? And as for the time it\u2019s taken for this bill to get here, let\u2019s be very clear: the fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria was in full swing up until about 18 months ago, when there was such an activity in the fight against them that they began to collapse. They began to run and they began to scatter. They began to hide themselves in refugee camps, and they began to do what Mark Taylor has done: present themselves as being victims of some horrible regime that they never really wanted to be a part of. But we know full well that, if it hadn\u2019t been for their defeat, they would have been out there today still participating in those sorts of terrorist activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo there was a necessity, certainly, to make sure that New Zealand\u2019s borders were protected, but this Minister has been in office for two years. Two years and it\u2019s suddenly dropped in the House under urgency, rushed through a select committee process, and put in front of us. I\u2019d like to know: is that Minister in receipt of information that suggests that there are people waiting at the borders right now to come on in? Can he answer that question? Why is it that someone who has a control order on them has to give their informed consent to its effect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022100794df4762479ca69801b953db1ff4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022100794df4762479ca69801b953db1ff4\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I might pick up, actually, on the informed consent element that the Hon Gerry Brownlee just touched on. The potential nature of these New Zealand terrorists returning is that either they will be of such\u2014well, I referenced it in Part 1: that they may not present, actually, as psychopathically or sociopathically wrong. They may be smart enough to, if you will, not give their informed consent, or you are going to be dealing with people who are so damaged, not just because of their fundamentalist viewpoints but actually a psychologist or a psychiatrist will be able to say that they cannot present their informed consent\u2014and that leads to a whole series of problems out of clause 16 where, actually, those conditions which have to be imposed with the informed consent of the terrorist doesn\u2019t fly. It\u2019d be good to have that commented on, but it\u2019s just another illustration of the potential weaknesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI return to that theme of these things which are low probability\u2014and the Minister has raised that there is a low probability, say, of young people coming back\u2014but I repeat again: while it\u2019s low probability, the risks are incredibly high. It\u2019s been one of the great debates, right through the select committee, of making sure that we understand that we are dealing with a very different group of people here. This is not the person who steals your bike or breaks into your home; this is a person who is more than willing to absolutely destroy you because they don\u2019t believe in any of the values that we hold dear. I suppose that\u2019s been one of the fundamental points when we\u2019re dealing particularly with the Greens and those left aligned: they don\u2019t hold our values in any way, shape, or form. The idea that we could sit down and have a cup of tea and talk about the wonderful, progressive values in being a modern, diverse society\u2014they will laugh and then cut your head off and then continue drinking the cup of tea and think that they are right. We\u2019re dealing with a very different class of people here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI want to try and focus, depending on my time, on the question of the renewal\u2014so that\u2019s clause 25\u2014and I want to draw attention to my Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 424, which is, basically, saying that we need to scrap that clause. New Zealand will be in a very strange situation if this bill passes: that these control orders will only apply for a maximum of six years. And, predictably enough that I\u2019ve put forward this SOP, I\u2019m indicating that we need to not limit the amount of time. If you want to take it on a positive step, it\u2019s infinitely possible that someone returning to this country is a committed, zealous jihadist, transforms themselves in two years\u2014and we\u2019ll just use that for the sake of example\u2014and can go back out into the community and the control order lapses. We all say, \u201CHooray!\u201D and we live happily ever after. But it\u2019s equally as logical that, after six years, a person has not changed, and I reject the Minister\u2019s assertion at the start that this side of the House does not believe in rehabilitation. That is certainly not the case. I certainly hold that we want to do all we can. If we have to have these people back, I certainly want them to be well controlled and well monitored, but I do want to see them helped, to try and change them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m not naive enough to think that we will be able to change everyone, and I would like to see that this House enables this piece of legislation, by adopting SOP 424, that the control orders can continue. They\u2019re not an infinite control order; this is not as if you are a terrorist and you return home and we\u2019re going to slap the control order on you until you\u2019re 105, and therefore it\u2019s there year after year, decade after decade. It\u2019s that, let\u2019s say, every two years the court relooks at it and continues to apply the control order if required. That\u2019s what other countries do, and I think it is prudent. As I say, I think there is a naivety if we think that, in six years, this is all done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been a lot of focus on the whole topic of rehabilitation, de-escalation, deradicalisation to reintegrate people into society\u2014all good and noble things\u2014but, actually, it doesn\u2019t matter if we\u2019re thinking of drugs, alcohol, or terrorism, we don\u2019t always succeed. I\u2019ve worked with people over many years with sort of the simpler addictions, if you will\u2014other than the addiction of terrorism. You can do all the best of work with the best of intentions over many, many years; some change, and good for them, but many don\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd so, to illustrate the point, if I might, that while it\u2019s a great intention of, I suspect again, the Green Party pulling the strings somewhat, that we\u2019ll have these rehabilitation programmes, and I think the Hon Gerry Brownlee makes a good point that it\u2019ll be on the taxpayers\u2019 pocket, it may not succeed. Now, some people might say, \u201CWell, that\u2019s just being academic, Simon. You\u2019re just theorising here. Of course, you know, after six wonderful years, we\u2019ll be able to deradicalise these people. We\u2019ll work with them. We\u2019ll put them within their family.\u201D They just say, \u201CLook, you\u2019re just being academic as you are always, Simon. You know, after six years, we\u2019ll have sorted it out. We\u2019ll put them out with their wh\u0101nau and the wider community and it\u2019ll be all sorted.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EWell, two weeks ago in London, a known jihadist who had been on the watch list\u2014in fact, had been arrested over six years ago in the UK\u2014went into Fishmongers\u2019 Hall in London City and knifed to death two UK citizens. He then proceeded on to London Bridge with the absolute intent, from what we can see, to kill more people. He was only stopped by the bravery of those around him. So why I mentioned that is that he is a classic case\u2014granted that of the UK, but we are not that different from the UK. He was a person who was a known terrorist, a known jihadist. As I understand things, he had been arrested, convicted, put through these rehabilitation programmes. He\u2019d been taught how to be deradicalised. It was all tickety-boo and, to the extent that I can comment, was no longer being properly watched. It seemed that, after six years, this had all been solved. And if you extrapolate that to New Zealand, after six years of a control order it\u2019s all now fine. As I say, six years and\u2014it\u2019s not serendipity, it\u2019s the opposite of that\u2014a terrible set of coincidences, after six years, this man, a known terrorist, went out and killed two people. I know it\u2019s an emotional example. I know it can always be seen as playing politics. But, for me, it\u2019s really just a simple but very real example coming out of a very similar country to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo I implore the Minister to consider Supplementary Order Paper 424. It\u2019s one of my more simple SOPs. It just destroys the good work that the Parliamentary Counsel Office and others have done by removing an entire clause with one swipe. But, basically, if we just get rid of the renewal section, then the control orders can continue to be applied. Minister, I urge you to consider this. Obviously, it\u2019s your call, but obviously I ask you to speak to why you, the Minister, believe that six years is just going to magically sort things, because, at the moment, if that person hasn\u2019t fully gone through and been deradicalised, after six years the control orders lapse. That\u2019s a problem and I don\u2019t think we should presume that, in those six years, if someone is not deradicalised, they\u2019ve gone ahead and created some problem themselves; that they\u2019ve, in other words, gone and created some domestic crime which means we can hold them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo I would just ask that the committee reflect on that recent, very real example out of the UK. A man, a known terrorist, a known jihadist was supposedly deradicalised after six years and goes out and kills innocent people\u2014sadly and paradoxically\u2014working on how to actually reintegrate people into the system. So it\u2019s something that we need to look very, very seriously at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd again, I just implore\u2014and I\u2019ll begin to wrap up here\u2014that the Minister and the committee in general actually consider just removing clause 25. Let\u2019s just delete it in its entirety and allow that these control orders can continue\u2014well, continue as long as needed. As I stress, they don\u2019t have to apply for ever. They don\u2019t have to apply for six years. They could apply for less if for some remarkable reason a person is changed. But I don\u2019t think, if we\u2019re going to argue a rehabilitative mind-set\u2014and it\u2019s just the logic of humanity: if we can rehabilitate a person, it goes without saying, Minister, that there are those that we cannot. And I think if we\u2019re going to pass this law in good and right proper order for the safety of the realm, then we should really consider SOP 424. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6475f8f9d224c67965b0436c7dc39af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6475f8f9d224c67965b0436c7dc39af\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister Little, I\u2019m going to address some of your opening comments and I would ask you to take a call in response to them. They are important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe first one is around the fact that your opening comment was that, in your briefings and the information that you have, you clearly understand who the individuals are and where the threat lies. And I accept you on your word on that. I believe that, when we were in Government, we were seeing the same briefings. But you\u2019re operating on this premise that that is the only threat, that we absolutely, 100 percent without any doubt know how many people are overseas, how many Kiwis are overseas, how many have engaged in some sort of terror activity, and when they\u2019re likely to come back. And I can tell you absolutely, categorically, there is not one intelligence agency in this world, there is not one country in this world that can say that they know categorically who the people are\u2014the individuals, the threat that they pose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EChris Penk made a very good point and it\u2019s salient. He said\u2014and this is the stuff that catches Governments out all the time: it\u2019s what you don\u2019t know. It\u2019s what you don\u2019t know. When we are talking about something as serious as our national security and public safety, then we should be doing everything that we can to pass legislation in this House that deals with the stuff that we don\u2019t know. And you, Minister, are operating completely on the premise that you believe that you know, categorically\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217fe4edce4f2487abf1524a1062e16e3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Mark Mitchell, I know the Speaker made the Mark Mitchell ruling to be more lenient on the use of \u201Cyou\u201D, but just pull back from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee4d5649564b419b97ffd1eefb9dceca\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Fair enough. Thank you, Madam Chair. So the Minister has stood in this House and very clearly stated that he knows without any doubt who the individuals are, who the people are, and what the threat is. So I\u2019d ask him to stand in this Chamber again and tell me that I\u2019m wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f192c997cd340199fe626089fef453e\u0022\u003EClayton Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af8c2e28473b41d09a73beaafca4c3a9\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: So who was that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b9c584eeeae4a589d8d0215b3f94aa0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That was Clayton Mitchell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ba6956058ea445c9f11f46c9627295b\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Clayton Mitchell from New Zealand First\u2014Clayton Mitchell from New Zealand First, a guy that purports to be part of a party that stands up for law and order, for justice issues, and national security. Stand up and take a call, Clayton Mitchell. Stand up and take a call. Actually, have you read the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b999cbaffd4b58930630bac4ef09a7\u0022\u003EClayton Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e022a1174b54cac8622f3d05e272c46\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Have you read our Supplementary Order Papers? I\u2019ll tell you what, you should be embarrassed that you are part of a party that\u2019s standing and voting for a bill that\u2019s been led by the Green Party. I can tell you right now: go out to one of your supporters, one of your New Zealand\u2014there\u2019s not many now. There\u2019s not many, I admit that; they\u2019re gone. But go out, try and find one of your supporters, and say, \u201CDo you trust the Green Party with our national security?\u201D They\u2019ll laugh at you. They\u2019ll laugh at you. And that\u2019s why your numbers will continue to go down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo I come back to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, and I\u2019m asking you, Minister, to stand and take a call and respond to this question as well. If the Commissioner of Police knows that someone is coming back\u2014[Minister in chair changes] Well, that\u2019s a shame. I don\u2019t have much faith in this Minister in the chair, the Hon Iain Lees-Galloway. His decision making has already been shown to be very poor around our national security. But I\u2019d ask him anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3d0bba2374b478aa60ffe0b6ead841f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Lets fighters in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252ddcd0009c646f48fae362860b86ea5\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: He does, but I\u2019d ask him anyway. How is the Commissioner of Police going to ask for a control order to be issued by the High Court of New Zealand when someone arrives at our border that we weren\u2019t aware was actually going to arrive until they get to the border? I just want the Minister to stand and tell the committee how the process is going to work as outlined in this paper in Part 2. How is the commissioner going to be able to inform the High Court so the High Court can get a control order in place to be able to pick up someone that arrives at our border when we weren\u2019t aware or notified of them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EAnd that happens. That happens around the world all the time. Are we immune to that? Do we have this cloak of invincibility? No, we don\u2019t. And it could happen to us and we should be making sure that we put in legislation through this House that can deal with it. So if the Minister could stand and take a call and explain to this committee how we\u2019re going to pick that person up and how the High Court is going to have time to get a control order in place so they don\u2019t walk straight out of that airport and straight into an unsuspecting population and community here at home in New Zealand. The police have been very clear. They\u2019ve said to this Government the amendment that we put up to allow them to detain at the border\u2014the message to this Government was that would be a welcome tool for them to be able to keep New Zealanders safe. Please take a call, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229f1588873b8442fb82520baad28d6a6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f1588873b8442fb82520baad28d6a6e\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I do want to support the Supplementary Order Paper in the name of Simon O\u2019Connor where he\u2019s suggesting that six years as an absolute limit on control orders is a bit of a nonsense. There should be much greater discretion; it might be that it has to last for longer, and, obviously, the provisions here would mean it can last for a lesser period of time. But let\u2019s say you\u2019ve got someone who regularly breaches the conditions\u2014not necessarily to a level where it can be proved that they\u2019re engaging in criminal activity, but they might, for example, be associating inappropriately with others who\u2019ve got a history of similar intention. Now, that would not be a criminal thing; it would simply be a breach of the control order. So they would be taken to court and they\u2019d be subject to a fine of up to $2,000. Now, if it\u2019s really serious\u2014and we know how the courts work in New Zealand, we know what sort of direction they\u2019d be looking at from the current Minister, they\u2019re most unlikely to impose anything like that because they\u2019ll say, \u201CWell, the person involved probably can\u2019t afford it.\u201D So they certainly won\u2019t look at the \u201Cup to one year\u201D that they could put them in prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s possible that someone breaches their control orders throughout those six years, organising some opportunity for a point beyond that time, and then, at the end of the six years, that\u2019s it\u2014they\u2019re free, they\u2019re clear, they can do what they like. But, of course, that is a preposterous situation, the Government will tell us, because, actually, all of the conditions under clause 16 in this bill allow massive freedom for the person who is subject to the control order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s look at just two of them\u2014clause 16(h): \u201Cprohibit or restrict the relevant person from holding accounts, possessing certain financial instruments, or using specified financial services.\u201D Now, that would seem reasonable. That means that this person cannot amass funds in New Zealand for the purposes of carrying out terrorist activity; perfectly reasonable. That\u2019s something that most people would accept is not an unreasonable condition on a control order, until we step back in the bill to clause 11(3) and we see what the court has to think about when it\u2019s imposing conditions in a control order. It is made very clear under clause 11(3)(a): \u201CConsider how requirements [or a requirement], if imposed, will or may affect the person\u2019s personal circumstances, for example, financial position, health, and privacy.\u201D And that means that it\u2019s almost impossible, in a country like New Zealand, where we do so much electronically and there is so little cash now in circulation, for a person to be denied the right to hold a bank account. Unless there is some sort of heavy surveillance over that bank account, no one will know whether it\u2019s multiplied into others and what funds might flow through it and where they might be funnelled to, because to do that, of course, would also, under clause 11(3)(a), be a breach of privacy, which the courts cannot order. So that provision in clause 16 is rubbish. It is as much rubbish as the one I spoke about a few minutes ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThen we come to 16(j): \u201CRequire the relevant person to reside at a specified address agreed between the relevant person\u201D\u2014remember, relevant person is a criminal terrorist; agreeing with the judge, \u201COh well, I\u2019ll go and stay there, all right\u201D\u2014\u201Cand the Police.\u201D The Police get to be involved as well; equal partners\u2014the judge, the criminal terrorist, and the Police, all treated equally in this discussion. They work out where this person is going to reside for the next few years or however long it might be, and then they will say, \u201CWell, that\u2019s reasonable. We want to know where that person is.\u201D Except that we then come to clause 17 in the bill, which says, \u201CNo requirement of the kind stated in section 16(j)\u201D\u2014so why was it even stated in the first place?\u2014\u201Ccan require the relevant person\u201D\u2014the criminal terrorist\u2014\u201Cto remain at a specified address for more than 12 hours in any 24-hour period.\u201D They can be a complete nomad, a total nomad, to go where they like in any 12 hours inside any 24 hours, and they can have a bank account, even though the court has made orders that affect both of those freedoms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo the question we have got is: why? Why does the Government continue to insist that this is a strong bill that will deter these people from terrorist activity? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u002221c56936fae0421094831720dab5ae9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221c56936fae0421094831720dab5ae9b\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chairperson. My contribution this evening is in support of the eight Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs) that the National Party proposes on the basis that the safety of New Zealanders is paramount to National and that we undertake our national security obligations very seriously. I would like to comment, also, on the debates that have been happening tonight, in that I see that both sides are seriously concerned about making sure that no terrorist activity again happens in New Zealand, and that is why the passions are high on both sides. We are all wanting to achieve the same level of protection for all New Zealanders, and that is why we have proposed these SOPs that only seek to strengthen the Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003ETo me, it seems unfortunate that there has been a blanket voting down of these SOPs, 418 and 419, referring to the age of potential terrorists coming into New Zealand as being youthful, which is globally supported by evidence in many countries, already, that this is happening. We are living in an increasingly complex security environment. It is vital that our legislation be effective and fit for purpose. So, again, pointing out that the SOPs are meant to do this, to make it more effective, to make it more fit for purpose; there is simply no leeway for experimentation and getting it wrong. In particular, I speak about SOP 424 as it relates to SOP 423\u2014which is in my name\u2014as we seek to amend clause 24 of the bill. SOP 423 proposes to require that the registrar of the High Court give notice to the Police Commissioner of all expiring final control orders that are about to expire, and that the notice must be given by the registrar to the Police at least two months before the date when that final control order is to expire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThe object is, quite clearly, just to ensure that a new application can be made and that there is sufficient time for an order to be issued. This is actually very similar to what the Hon Mark Mitchell was referring to, in that when a person arrives and we are not aware that he is a terrorist or that he is not on our record as a terrorist, there is insufficient time for the courts to be able to issue a control order, even given a minimum of four hours to be able to do so once the control orders are applied for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003ESo this is a similar situation where a control order is coming to its expiration date and there is a need to ensure that there is ample time to apply for a new one. It does not mean that the control order will be renewed. It still needs to be justified and considered necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EWe simply do not wish to place New Zealanders at risk, and I think this is a common goal for everyone. I ask members to think through towards strengthening this legislation and voting for these SOPs 423 and 424. Thank you, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022968cded0c7814412882e78ae7571d803\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022968cded0c7814412882e78ae7571d803\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Going further through clause 16, which is the conditions that might be applied in a control order, one of those might be to require the person, as I said earlier, to undergo some kind of rehabilitative programme. The Minister spoke extensively about this. He\u2019d assumed that the courts, upon understanding what the Government\u2019s intentions are, would be inclined to suggest to a person by putting it in a control order\u2014and I say that because it\u2019s a nice bill and it\u2019s really voluntary on the part of the criminal terrorist as to whether they are part of this or not, and that\u2019s quite clear as we\u2019ve gone through this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIf they say to them, \u201CLook, you must undertake some kind of rehabilitative process. You might need to go through a deradicalisation programme. You need psychological treatment to straighten yourself up and to understand what it\u2019s like to live in a free country where people can have free thought, but not to a point that their ideology starts to threaten the safety and security of others in the country.\u201D, yes, they will be required to do that. But what if they just say, \u201CNo, I\u2019m not going to do it.\u201D? Well, what happens then? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister in the chair, the Hon Iain Lees-Galloway, to stand up and tell us what happens then, because what I can see here is that, under clause 31, there would be a potential breach of the control order and that could mean that the person is subject to up to a $2,000 fine or a one-year imprisonment. We know that no court would ever go that far\u2014they don\u2019t; they\u2019re all soft, except when it comes to dealing with people they think can afford these things\u2014and then, when we go further into this, we find that there is actually a provision in here that says that if someone chooses not to participate in that way, then they are not in breach, as they would be as stated under clause 31. They\u2019re not subject to it. So, effectively, there is no requirement on them to participate in that anti-radicalisation service, or if it\u2019s drugs or alcohol, or some other such that the courts have ordered, it\u2019s very clear that if they decide that they\u2019re not going to participate in that, it is not a breach of the control order. Now, how is this in any way in line with the concept of rehabilitation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt just adds to the general duplicity of all the statements coming from the Government parties about what this bill can achieve. We\u2019ve seen that there is no prohibition of any great meaningful impost on the criminal terrorist with regards to movement around the country. We\u2019ve seen that there is no way that any court is going to take away their right to engage in financial transactions in New Zealand. It\u2019s specified in here that they\u2019ve got to think about what that would mean for their lives. If they suddenly said, \u201CWell, that would mean you\u2019d have to go to Uncle Somebody to get your pocket money.\u201D, well, that also would be against the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, which, of course, is specifically a requirement for the courts to consider when it comes to these people. Now, we find that if they are required to go through any of these services, then if they simply say, \u201CNo, not doing it.\u201D\u2014it\u2019s under clause 19(4) of the bill, in fact: \u201CA relevant person\u201D\u2014a criminal terrorist\u2014\u201Cwho withholds, or withdraws, informed consent [to one of these programmes] does not breach the relevant requirement for the purposes of section 31\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019ve got in this bill is all these freedoms given to the criminal terrorist but, at the same time, the public are duped with the concept of the courts being able to apply all these controlled circumstances on the criminal terrorist who turns up here. Well, I\u2019ve got to say that there is no way that this bill is adequate for the protection of New Zealanders against people who would come into this country, want to live here, and enjoy the freedoms that we have here, but show no will to change the way that they operate. And, remember, they are criminal terrorists\u2014we know that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00224c8269881a3f46a1927b43defd5baada\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c8269881a3f46a1927b43defd5baada\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002200d496db28144047bfa4635b36a0a486\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200d496db28144047bfa4635b36a0a486\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: This has got quite a substantial amount in Part 2, so I\u2019m not prepared to put that leave yet. But I would recommend to members that they speak to Part 2 and perhaps not be nearly as repetitious or, actually, boring, as some of the contributions have been. It should be fresh material. There\u2019s plenty to choose from, so I would invite the Hon Mark Mitchell to lead in that fashion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a2c1bb85dc0471a8ba4b8ff25276f00\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re talking to, but I\u2019ve raised in every speech I\u2019ve had a new aspect of this bill, demonstrating its inadequacy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef370e44cb6540139d9824575d3cb5d4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I admire the leadership, and the Hon Mark Mitchell can\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2f5781dae0f46d49e1e8364ed583e5a\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and not one of those thoughts has been answered by the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdb6b8b2f88240428c0772fbf4700541\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Mark Mitchell can continue in that fashion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9b91cb07b7d46c69fca8b59b7f0805a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9b91cb07b7d46c69fca8b59b7f0805a\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. There\u2019s another question I have for the Minister in the chair, the Hon Iain Lees-Galloway, carrying on the theme that the Hon Gerry Brownlee was talking about. It is that when we have someone returning to New Zealand that has chosen to go and operate in a country like Syria and that has been involved\u2014and we have the intelligence to say that they have been involved\u2014or has been the sponsor of or has been supporting some type of terror activity, they pose a risk when they come back to New Zealand. This new definition that\u2019s been introduced, thanks to our friends over here in the Green Party, is \u201Creal risk\u201D. What does \u201Creal risk\u201D mean, because, to us, all we\u2019ve seen is a raising and making it harder for our intelligence agencies to use the intelligence and information that they have to be able to make a case or show that someone returning to New Zealand is a risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not willing\u2014I\u2019m not willing\u2014to move those tests and make it easier for someone to come back to New Zealand and walk out through the arrival gates and out into the community. I think there has to be a real test, a robust test, that\u2019s provided. And, by the way, please, someone take a call\u2014maybe the Greens could do this\u2014and explain to us what the difference is between\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228b96af4fdf64057bc7f84b15e360c46\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Get some new material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcae3ec1a7cb47c29d4d6acf2f23a062\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the definition of a \u201Crisk\u201D and the definition of a \u201Creal risk\u201D. Take a call, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, and actually explain to us what is the difference. What\u2019s the difference between risk and\u2014she doesn\u2019t know. She doesn\u2019t know and has got absolutely no idea herself what that means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo someone take a call and tell us, because I\u2019ll tell you what\u2014I\u2019ll tell you what\u2014I actually feel that if someone is arriving in our country that\u2019s chosen to travel to Syria and has chosen to associate with known terrorists and comes back to New Zealand, we want to know what they\u2019re doing. We want to know what their intent is. I don\u2019t want them to walk out the departure gate at Auckland Airport and jump into a car and drive down to the Auckland Viaduct\u2014and we\u2019ve seen these low-tech attacks happen all over the world\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022390925c34c664cbdbbeec8e961b322a9\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: The only actual terrorist attack was from an Australian white supremacist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccd63f71508d4237a7e3398ce4a115dd\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and go and drive into a crowded cafe and kill Kiwis, right? So take a call. The Greens now, apparently, seem to have found their voice. Stand and take a call. If you\u2019ve got an issue to make and if you want to talk to this bill, then take a call and make your point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I\u2019d raise is, quite simply, this: the Police, in the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, told us they were very clear about the fact that, if a control order couldn\u2019t be put in place and the Customs Service could only hold the person for four hours, they couldn\u2019t get surveillance in place in time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo I want to know. I want the Minister\u2014and I\u2019ve asked this question now, Madam Chair, and this is the fourth time that I\u2019ve asked the Minister for a response and to answer in detail\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e847a4058a4c44b4815c260b55c4c7cd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, that\u2019s right\u2014very repetitive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a52306e89b04173bf84e4415b9bc2b3\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s right\u2014it is. Have we had a response from the Minister? It\u2019s a very clear\u2014very clear\u2014question. It\u2019s fundamental to the purpose and the intent of this bill. It fails at the first hurdle. Not one Minister has been able to stand and give this committee a clear answer in terms of how we will get a control order in place when the police and the agencies responsible for actually using this legislation have very clearly told us, through the select committee process, that they cannot do it. So I think it is a very important matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like the Green Party to stand and explain to us, tell us how it\u2019s going to work. I don\u2019t think you can. I don\u2019t even think you\u2019ve read the bill, either. I don\u2019t think you\u2019ve got any understanding at all in terms of what was said. I\u2019ll tell you one thing. I\u2019ll tell you one thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a02fd8a21ea4ed9bd2084dbc1d1dad1\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: The great experience of Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223871cdd8de4c4a96852974cff8c0e990\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s right. I\u2019m sorry, but are we going to trust you with our national security? Forget about it\u2014forget about it. The rest of the country aren\u2019t going to trust you either, trust me on that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI want the Minister in the chair, the Hon Iain Lees-Galloway, to be able to stand and explain to us the difference between \u201Crisk\u201D and \u201Creal risk\u201D, and tell us how a control order is going to be put in place. I\u2019m glad to see that he\u2019s getting advice. We might actually now get an answer. Explain to me how a control order\u2014an interim control order\u2014is going to be in place for someone that arrives at our border that we weren\u2019t already notified of. The High Court has to issue a control order before they leave the airport where they\u2019re relying on shonky legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe poor old Customs officials that appeared in front of the select committee tried to make the point that actually they operate under a very different piece of legislation. Tell us, Minister, how, without breaking the law, they\u2019re actually going to hold someone for four hours. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 415 in the name of the Hon Andrew Little to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229c29c0938f414b18a318db1fcfc1f8ea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264c65bae42ba4448ab9626ceb6843028\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: So tough. Amazing. Wow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6951b214373472cad4254d4ceaf8841\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6951b214373472cad4254d4ceaf8841\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Votes will be conducted in silence. The Hon Mark Mitchell has been here long enough to know that rule. Please comply with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe Hon Mark Mitchell\u2019s amendments to clauses 16, 17, 18, and 19 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 420 are out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee in relation to Supplementary Order Paper 415.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 421 in the name of the Hon Mark Mitchell to clause 16 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b8004a16a0234aafbf4952e28d41a814\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe7e2dcaec794234a2a933312a7aabe0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe7e2dcaec794234a2a933312a7aabe0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Mark Mitchell\u2019s amendment to clauses 20 and 24 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 419 are out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 422 in the name of the Hon Mark Mitchell to insert new clause 21A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022415d8aa6bb404af58fa445ca33798e62\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000718\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 423 in the name of Paulo Garcia to clause 24 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227b7024550eeb4a4b9dde6a4e10512f42\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000719\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 424 in the name of Simon O\u2019Connor to clause 25 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fced04fb3656477ebced2cbfee494896\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000720\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 425 in the name of the Hon Mark Mitchell to clause 31 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227f372cb061a042c48ddad9801a50c196\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f460864092f04c9387937f708906820f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022414ed7bb708c49359d27747a8ef33112\u0022\u003ESchedules 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccd4ae7acdf04eca9734297a1dd278fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccd4ae7acdf04eca9734297a1dd278fd\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This will be a\u2014also, this is on Schedule 1, Part 1 isn\u2019t it? Now that I\u2019ve risen to my feet. Schedule 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295c6bd9ae9754ed8a1744e435834a621\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022892d1e845fbd48fe8072fe0a0b78d554\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Just Schedule 1 rather than Schedule 2 as well? We do those as separate discussions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd9c6c71d20c4bbf9836f0f3f3c6a9ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251e04d0cca46466392de1d5be521ab9f\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Fantastic. Just making sure; I don\u2019t want to intrude. Look, I\u2019ll only take a short call on Schedule 1. I think it\u2019s probably important just to draw attention, I suppose it\u2019s twofold, to an appropriate provision here to ensure that everything that\u2019s happened before this Act becomes law, if that\u2019s not presumptuous, can be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI suppose it does sit within the wider realm of this particular piece of legislation, which is that we are trying to rely on a non-evidential framework in order to provide, if you will, evidence to bring about the control orders. I think it\u2019s prudent that this has been put in here. It\u2019s more usual that Schedule 1s have a much larger transitional setting as is put down here\u2014the \u201Cperson\u2019s conduct before the commencement of the Act may be relied on\u201D. I suppose we just want to get some surety from the Minister that \u201Cmay\u201D is strong enough. It in some ways must be relied on. We are very keen on understanding their conduct. Fundamentally, as a civil rather than criminal bill, there are no evidential standards here in New Zealand, no evidence that can be applied, so we will absolutely be relying on the person\u2019s conduct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI suppose it\u2019s also wanting some assurances from the Minister in what will be a short call, that with the\u2014well, the very nature of the Act; the Minister himself has indicated this is a response to things which are happening. We do know\u2014and we won\u2019t go into the numbers in this committee here, but for those of us, we know of the numbers that are returning. We will be absolutely reliant on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo I suppose it\u2019s really just a very short and simple call on this one to affirm\u2014good to see it there\u2014and just to ask the question of whether the word \u201Cmay\u201D really should be \u201Cmust\u201D; that the person\u2019s conduct before the commencement must be relied on, fundamentally, particularly those coming back early. That will be the key evidence that\u2019s required. So that\u2019s just my contribution on Schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002205ccecab32a64efb896c311dc852dc57\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022417541506c81461fa3d7864698a58058\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022417541506c81461fa3d7864698a58058\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Schedule 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 415\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bf3bf7f39cf426ab25a9403c3434fee\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on, what about Schedule 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227592c582d1de43138bdc58c0b6a91870\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was my error, and Simon O\u2019Connor got an added bonus. We don\u2019t have a debate on the Schedule, but we do have a debate on clauses 1 and 2. My apologies, but I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffa9886711dc4033802736adb6203a01\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Madam Chair, that\u2019s quite unreasonable. I would\u2019ve taken a call on the Schedules had it not been for your instruction to the committee. That\u2019s not at all satisfactory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224c853129f3546b5b7e1dc8efbc383ae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, the Hon Gerry Brownlee. I really appreciate your guidance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 415 in the name of the Hon Andrew Little, and the following amendment in the name of the Hon Andrew Little, to Schedule 2 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003Eafter \u201CIs the court satisfied that the relevant person poses a\u201D, insert \u201Creal\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfdaeef75b904b4aa0e34ff7bf2458c1\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eecb9625dd54e8eb8aa7ae56453d24c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: There is no debate on Schedules. It was my error. There will be no points of order while I\u2019m taking a vote. Simon O\u2019Connor asked me\u2014my error\u2014and I allowed him to spend five minutes making a contribution because it was my error in calling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022092610ad9cfa45268fa6e5d2def73698\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u002221f6297f14f04d0b812c2bc769a399d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221f6297f14f04d0b812c2bc769a399d4\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I feel risky now, taking a call, but I will take one on the title and commencement, now that I\u2019ve found them there. Look, fundamentally, that this is coming after Royal assent makes absolutely perfect sense. I suppose it\u2019s just a quick affirmation, for want of a better phrase, that there are no delays. I think enough culpability can be put around the Parliament for when this should or should not have been done. This Government\u2019s been here for two years; the argument, of course, goes that we were here for nine. The recent actions, though, as we say, that particularly have come out of Syria and particularly the Turkish invasion, which led to the opening of the prisons and so forth\u2014so just affirming that the commencement date is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI suppose I do take a little bit of question with the title. I think the intention is that it\u2019s a Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill, and I won\u2019t necessarily have some great examples of what it should be called, but the umbrage that this side has is that we are worried that, actually, the control orders are not sufficient enough. I think we\u2019ve attempted to illustrate on this side of the Chamber that the controls, if you will, at the will or whim of the court\u2014that there\u2019s contradictory clauses here, that, actually, something can be put forward, that there\u2019s all these controls around, say, bank accounts and financial arrangements but that you move on to the next clause and they say, well, actually, you\u2019ve got to take in the financial wellbeing of the terrorist\u2014it\u2019s created contradictions. The place of informed consent and so forth also changes the nature of how well this will control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo one of my fundamental and earlier points, which is then illustrated in the title, is that this is not actually going to bring about that which it says it wishes to do, and so calling this a \u201CControl Orders\u201D\u2014yep, there\u2019s an element of control. There are orders, to a degree, but it\u2019s funny and paradoxical, if not sad, that the orders themselves can be somewhat contradicted by the terrorists and that, ultimately\u2014is this going to suppress terrorism? I suppose that the fear, the concern, in a more rational sense, on this side of the Chamber is this will not actually suppress terrorism. The intention is right, some of the structures are right, but the fundamental issues remain that this is wide, wide open as a bill\u2014doesn\u2019t matter if people are under 18, whether we have sufficient intelligence that can be, rightly or not, shared within the courts, that the control orders do not last for a long time. So we have a concern that the title is in some ways misleading or could be seen as misleading. It\u2019s not going to suppress terrorism, certainly not overseas. We fear that it may not suppress it sufficiently here in New Zealand, and the control orders we see as relatively weak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut, again, with that short contribution here on clause 1 and 2, just to indicate we would like to see a title change which is far more indicative of what we feel on this side of the House is a weak bill, and the commencement itself\u2014it makes sense that it\u2019s so quick, but, ultimately, and if I might finish on these, it\u2019s what I\u2019ve hit many, many times in my contributions tonight. The problems we see, in my opinion, are low probability, but probable they are, and their risks are immensely high. So perhaps the title is ultimately that this is an ignoring, if you will: the \u201CTerrorism Suppression (Low-probability, High-risk Ignoring Control Orders) Bill\u201D. But, anyway, I\u2019ll finish there with my short contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225b87d9a022ea4ee0ac73d53da2d723f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b87d9a022ea4ee0ac73d53da2d723f3\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I think the previous speaker, Simon O\u2019Connor, makes a good point. The title does not describe this bill. It should be the \u201CTerrorism Suppression (Control Orders\u2014If the Criminal Terrorist Agrees) Bill\u201D, because so much in here is a complete compromise on the statements that are made in the bill by the conditions that are also in the bill for the criminal terrorist to have a view about whether or not those control orders should apply to them. Even the Schedule in the bill that sets out the process for how the bill works is said, right at the start of the bill, to be a diagrammatic of decision-making control set out which, of course, is intended only as a guide. So there\u2019s nothing in here that\u2019s fixed\u2014nothing in here that is permanent. This is very much a sort of optional arrangement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt is an incredibly weak bill. The title is misleading, and it should be altered to reflect the perilous position that the country still remains in should any of these people manage to slip through the borders with one of these weak control orders put upon them, where, of course, they\u2019re not even going to be monitored; they\u2019re just going to be wondering around the place. The title should reflect the fact that the benefit of the doubt largely goes to someone who, in the first place, has been identified as being formerly involved in criminal terrorist activity. Actually, the only part of the bill that\u2019s right is how that\u2019s described.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f6147a5da3cb4d11833e11b9a88dbeef\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223e569fed0c5546839c7f9d8b95da854f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000748\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022be4cc8cf0e88486f8537664a07703b8e\u0022\u003EMaritime Transport (Offshore Installations) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022542e9558382d4be889fbcd3a82516867\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00222e0048a158da4242920447dfd0f51fbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e0048a158da4242920447dfd0f51fbe\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for all parts to be taken as one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002253cb0d5c7eff4e629e58dda92de500f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253cb0d5c7eff4e629e58dda92de500f9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. So we\u2019re speaking to Parts 1 and 2 and clauses 1 to 3 on the Maritime Transport (Offshore Installations) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226faba8a7bd86429dbc3c6a4e6357494f\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2 and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002252df1fe24af84ebd8b5d39163693fe3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252df1fe24af84ebd8b5d39163693fe3d\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221be1a81c8b144621bb50ac2a40e8a309\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd19d3d7333e4664929b6b3e39006efb\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I do appreciate your instruction on exactly what we\u2019re talking about here. I\u2019ll take just a very short call indicating that this is a bill that we are supporting. It is one of those bills that probably falls in line with a great deal of the work that gets done in this House where there is generally agreement. It is making provisions that should be accepted that are sensible in the law. With those comments, I think I will now resume my seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00228990188afeea44ee9b3bf0d74265ac57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228990188afeea44ee9b3bf0d74265ac57\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak in support of this bill. In fact, as I said in the second reading of this bill, this was work that the previous National-led Government initiated because we saw some need for work to have financial assurance around any potential offshore spill, which I think not only would every New Zealander agree with but the operators who have offshore installations fully accept their responsibility and part to play in ensuring that our environment is protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EJust the other day\u2014I think it was yesterday\u2014the Hon Julie Anne Genter proposed a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP), SOP 417, which would enable those certificates of insurance to be altered. Obviously, this is applying to one particular company. We feel that there is some sense in that\u2014that those companies do want to comply with the intent and spirit of this legislation. So we support that SOP, and we think that, of course, all of these are rational provisions put in place to ensure that the environment, which we love, is continued to be cared for and protected and that every element is put in place to mitigate any risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s all I really want to say at this point in time, because I think that\u2019s the only change that\u2019s really come this way. But can I just assure, as I\u2019ve had conversations with the sector regarding that SOP, that there is commitment to that. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 417 in the name of the Hon Julie Anne Genter to clause 7 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2 and clauses 1 to 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221262d23b0dd24b6f98050eb9e6218c06\u0022\u003ECredit Contracts Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f942a8f452d940318856ca999bdfba12\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000766\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 10 December.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1cdb4a8926b47b494b59bd819aab063\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002285a241e82c594351a57d3f286a66779c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285a241e82c594351a57d3f286a66779c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now move to further consideration of the Credit Contracts Legislation Amendment Bill. When we were last debating this, we were up to something really interesting, and I\u2019ll just find out what it was\u2014hold the line please, caller. When we were last debating this bill, we were considering Part 1. The Hon Kris Faafoi had the call, and he has four minutes remaining, should he wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 412 in the name of the Hon Kris Faafoi to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db736ce1696d4c2ba91056dc0110953f\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e4628d637d04a0fabcffbdebc5880b4\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ca8130f60ec3415295ba80e5fbefa56a\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab68c0f1124f45358059089ee4984fd3\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022842479dc0c194c3cb201b211d118178d\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000777\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000778\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000779\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Education (Pastoral Care) Amendment Bill without amendment, the Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill with amendment, the Maritime Transport (Offshore Installations) Amendment Bill with amendment, and the Credit Contracts Legislation Amendment Bill with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000780\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b923abaa647745ac9060e7cc76e45225\u0022\u003EOmbudsmen (Protection of Name) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002231f5d0354a9a41ec8093d16aaeeadcf9\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000783\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 21 November.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022 data-id=\u00224a071447c32c4f9cbf414f38c051f4a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a071447c32c4f9cbf414f38c051f4a5\u0022\u003ECLAYTON MITCHELL (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. What a great pleasure to see such fantastic progress moving through the House this evening with some passionate contributions being made from around the House this evening on some much needed legislative changes that we\u2019ve all been so desperately waiting for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re only a few sleeps away from Christmas now. We can count down those days. But the Ombudsmen (Protection of Name) Amendment Bill is an important piece of legislation for some\u2014respecting the word and the name and the brand \u201Combudsman\u201D, and yet enabling the role to be regarded by the public and giving it a certain je ne sais quoi, a certain respect and understanding that the role that it plays is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EThe ombudsman does play a very important role. It\u2019s the place that we go to when we feel like there is no other place that we can go to\u2014an overarching body that can give an impartial, completely independent view on a situation. It can judge Governments, it can judge individuals, and it can give opinions and have power to invoke positive changes for public interest\u2019s sake and for individuals and for certain issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EThe Ombudsmen protection bill for that brand is very important. We have seen the use of the term \u201Combudsman\u201D in other countries to be overused and prolifically under-utilised, therefore reducing its power and equity within a community. We in New Zealand believe that that should be protected in New Zealand, which is why we are ring-fencing that term and giving it a very serious high profile position that it does deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022919a8e8d-afaf-4342-ad6f-71cbb6024544\u0022\u003EWe do believe that this bill is important. Some people think that it doesn\u2019t require the amount of time and effort and energy. I\u2019m not going to give it a huge amount of time, but we do commend this bill to the House, because it deserves to go through and the people of New Zealand need to understand that the very important and well-respected brand of ombudsman has a very strong role to play, which is why we will commend this bill to the House. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022512f76114a054fc5b2dd1153b28c49d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022512f76114a054fc5b2dd1153b28c49d6\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E National does not support the Ombudsmen (Protection of Name) Amendment Bill. We do, indeed, believe that this bill is not necessary and is, effectively, wasting the House\u2019s and select committee\u2019s time. The member who has just resumed his seat, Clayton Mitchell, cited exactly the reason why National does not support this bill. The member cited unspecified overseas countries where the ombudsman\u2019s name is overused. Well, that\u2019s simply not the case in New Zealand. As it currently stands, the term \u201Combudsman\u201D is rarely adopted and rarely used, so indeed there is no problem to be solved. So this bill simply is a space-filler in the Order Paper, in order for this Government to look as if it\u2019s doing something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe National Party took a very strong part in the select committee process, and it is our view that while there is a savings provision contained in this bill under new clauses 2 and 2A, in Schedule 1AA, the savings provision would allow the Banking Ombudsman Scheme and the Insurance and Financial Services Ombudsman Scheme Incorporated to continue to use the name, because they have permission, if you like, to do so, but they would not be able, in the future, to change their corporate structure and still continue to use that name. So they would therefore be caught in a certain period in time. They are known as the ombudsman schemes and they should continue to be used as the ombudsman scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThis is a bill which is looking to solve a problem which simply does not exist in New Zealand, and National does not support it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5dd834dc6a44ae3be1ad5e51085c087\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5dd834dc6a44ae3be1ad5e51085c087\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green):\u003C/span\u003E E Te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e Te Whare. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on behalf of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand to speak to this Ombudsmen (Protection of Name) Amendment Bill in what appears to be one of the calmer moments that we\u2019ve witnessed in this Chamber in the past few hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis is a common-sense piece of legislation; it\u2019s interesting to hear from the National Party that it\u2019s unnecessary and that it\u2019s a waste of space. I hope that they contribute some great ideas at the committee of the whole House stage up next. But none the less, as this is common sense, it doesn\u2019t require that much more contribution. The Green Party supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff2ea96502f84c31a9c7d2a5ec8bfdd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff2ea96502f84c31a9c7d2a5ec8bfdd4\u0022\u003EDr JIAN YANG (National):\u003C/span\u003E National opposes the Ombudsmen (Protection of Name) Amendment Bill; however, we will work together with Government MPs to improve the bill. National oppose the bill because we believe it is a waste of Parliament\u2019s time. The bill simply transfers the power regarding protection of the name of \u201Combudsman\u201D from the ombudsman to the Minister, and attempts to address a problem that does not really exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EIf we read the Ministry of Justice\u2019s regulatory impact statement\u2014or RIS\u2014we can see that the officials are not enthusiastic about the bill at all; they simply can\u2019t find any good, convincing reasons to justify such a Government bill. Officials say, on page 3 in the RIS, that the evidence certainty for the bill is low. They are not even confident that they are well positioned to produce an analysis and give advice to the Cabinet because of \u201CA lack of empirical evidence about the nature and extent of the problem\u201D and \u201CKey gaps and assumptions in the data or analysis\u201D and \u201CInsufficient consultation and information to inform analysis or test assumptions.\u201D So I oppose the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022517f54c3b58b462ab547329a933221fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022517f54c3b58b462ab547329a933221fd\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. I\u2019m delighted, if not somewhat surprised, to be speaking on the Ombudsmen (Protection of Name) Amendment Bill. You know, sometimes things come in front of this House that the other side might wish to ridicule; they might wish to make cheap political points, but I am shocked that they would choose to take that tack on something as important as protecting the name of the \u201Combudsman\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe thing is that the ombudsman role is vital in our democracy; it is a layer of protection to ensure that people who live in this country can have a fall-back, I suppose\u2014a check on a check; a balance on a balance. That is what an ombudsman is. Yet that other side of the House is willing to have it flailed about willy-nilly by any character, any rooster that pops into town.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat if I wanted to come into town and open up an \u201COmbudsman\u2019s Advice Service\u201D? I might change my name to \u201COmbudsman\u201D, and it would be entirely appropriate. Kieran \u201CMcOmbudsman\u201D, I might change my name to, and that might allow me to open up a financial advice service, and in doing so, I would give my service an artificial veneer of credibility just because of the use of the term, and we say that is wrong\u2014that is utterly wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EFor nine years, the previous Government flailed about with this opportunity and loophole available to people, and I say, thank God no one used it. But the Hon Andrew Little came along and said, \u201CHere is a loophole which we will not stand for and we will fix.\u201D So what this bill does is it protects the integrity of the role of the parliamentary Ombudsman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI note that the Minister, in his second reading speech, acknowledged the work of the Governance and Administration Committee\u2014and good on them. So here we are at the second reading, with an opportunity to reflect on the changes that the select committee made. I note that there were 11 submitters, of which six presented orally. I think that\u2019s a tremendous strike rate\u2014that is a marvellous strike rate. It demonstrates the interest in something of this nature. I refer to something that came in front of this House on a members\u2019 day not that long ago. For here we have the National Party, speaker after speaker after speaker, saying that this is not important and it\u2019s not needed, and that no one cares. Yet this had a total of 11 submitters, a sum total of 10 submitters more than Todd Muller\u2019s member\u2019s bill, which the National Party stood there and said. \u201CThis is vital that we pass for the benefit of cooperatives around the country.\u201D What is good for the goose is good for the gander\u2014that\u2019s what I say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EHere we are with an opportunity to make sure that the use of the term \u201Combudsman\u201D is prohibited from use aside from those that it was intended. Now, I\u2019m sure it\u2019s on the tip of our tongues that we acknowledge that the name \u201Combudsman\u201D is currently protected under the Ombudsman Act 1975. I have to say that it\u2019s been a privilege. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022 data-id=\u00224803e5298eed4cd6be45ff50af481eb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224803e5298eed4cd6be45ff50af481eb1\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E We are absolutely opposed to this bill because it\u2019s a complete and utter waste of time. In the 10 or 15 seconds that I have left, I wish this House to be aware that, actually, there are more important things for this House to do. The Chief Ombudsman was in the Governance and Administration Committee today, and I have great respect for him\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226f3ad2195b040a0be960e69fdc9ce3d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very sorry to interrupt the member, but the time has come for me to leave the chair. The House stands adjourned till 2 p.m. tomorrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20191211223a4c845cd242f99dabe21086a8e128000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"