"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e65a45e015b14a9f87a6fc5648dccb24\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 3 JUNE 2020\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f45d7e9bcf046e5a7abc7f716229e21\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 3 JUNE 2020\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab686d321caa43529cb68a62c0867c9b\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226814695690dc46b5afd9f9960fe4d2ba\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002298d530c77b964824803b05d32ee95910\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022de1ad5b7a3b14364831a0a67520ea4a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de1ad5b7a3b14364831a0a67520ea4a6\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy in the context of the global COVID-19 pandemic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e16f46b66c8b409897126c191273a82c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e16f46b66c8b409897126c191273a82c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In its latest weekly commentary, released yesterday, Westpac said that \u201CThere was a definite bounce in the economy after the Alert Level 4 lockdown was lifted,\u201D. It said recent card-spending data points to an encouraging degree of resilience in households\u2019 spending appetites, while key indicators such as electricity demand, heavy and light traffic movements, and a slower pace of job losses recently were also pointing to a faster recovery than we had expected. Westpac said that although there had been a large lift in the number of people on the jobseeker benefit, it was a more modest increase than expected, largely due to the Government\u2019s wage subsidy scheme. Accordingly, it expects unemployment may not reach its own forecast peak of 9.5 percent. I am pleased to see that this commentary recognises the impact of New Zealanders\u2019 efforts in getting the virus under control, coupled with the Government\u2019s unprecedented level of economic support so that we have the best chance of our economy recovering well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfe05476406b42b6ae63f4046e590263\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on the scale of the Government\u2019s support for the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db3c126fb12a459683779637eff27b3d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s unprecedented $62.1 billion in available economic support includes the wage subsidy scheme, the Small Business Cashflow (Loan) Scheme, $2.8 billion in business tax changes, an estimated $3.1 billion tax loss carry-back scheme, $3 billion for new infrastructure projects, $1.6 billion for the trades and apprenticeship training package, the billion-dollar environmental jobs package, $216 million for the international business sector, and, as of today\u2019s announcement, $150 million for research and development loans. According to analysis from Treasury, this package represents nearly 20 percent of GDP, which puts it as one of the largest fiscal support packages in the world, well above Australia, Japan, Singapore, Canada, the US, and the UK. From the outset of this pandemic, our Government has committed to going hard and going early, cushioning the blow for households and businesses, and kick-starting the recovery on the other side. The scale of our fiscal support represents the scale of our commitment to New Zealanders to help see them through the crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9ba24796486401fb1f1178c6d58b3ae\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on the international context for the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c1d6bf050b84c43bdc172b0a9bcad32\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve seen a range of reports that indicate that many other countries may be facing greater economic impacts from COVID-19 and a slower recovery from it. The Reserve Bank of Australia and the Australian Treasury are both forecasting unemployment to rise to 10 percent in Australia. According to the International Monetary Fund, Ireland\u2019s unemployment rate is forecast to rise to 12 percent this year. The unemployment rate for April in the US was officially 14.7 percent, but a report from Goldman Sachs estimates it could be as high as 21.5 percent in May.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022434788de47714f29b85f8f3ba2b5310c\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: A thousand a day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293c0d87859354655b7b4dd9a27191791\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true, Mr Brownlee. We have always been upfront that the road ahead will be difficult. We will not be able to save every job or every business, but these forecasts show that, thanks to our collective success in fighting the virus and our efforts at cushioning the economic blow, we face less damaging immediate impacts and the opportunity for a stronger recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e294e488d204632a982b8ea02f32204\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u00227192afab9fe74343a0b1ec9f3885d9ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227192afab9fe74343a0b1ec9f3885d9ad\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Why isn\u2019t New Zealand already in alert level 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00228f9dc8e0351f4dfabf4985f28cd00089\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f9dc8e0351f4dfabf4985f28cd00089\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E While ongoing zero-case days have given us confidence to move forward consideration of a move to alert level 1 to 8\u00A0June, earlier than that would not have given sufficient confidence that transmission was not occurring that has not yet been detected. The incubation period of the virus is up to 14 days; it\u2019s only been 13 days since bars reopened and five days since gathering sizes were lifted to 100. We also have to bear in mind that it is worse for our economy if we move backwards and forwards between alert levels rather than making the right decision the first time. It is also important to note that we began our staggered approach to alert level 2 less than three weeks ago, and New Zealand already has some of the most liberal restrictions in the world because of the effectiveness of our strategy to date. We need to ensure that as a team of 5 million we do not lose the gains we\u2019ve made to date and go backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022412d2b820e1c49ba898d28ad3c3a79a9\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she so reticent to move to alert level 1, when Dr Ashley Bloomfield has said there is\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cno evidence of community transmission in New Zealand\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022305c388c11624b0983fccee20b236144\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m acting on the advice of Director-General Dr Ashley Bloomfield. He is the one giving us the guidance to remain where we are. He has expressed comfort with us making that consideration on 8 June, but that is not an accurate reflection of his views.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acf3362a31ee4d97b815548ef4a631b3\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cfrom a public health perspective alert level 1 means there has been a period of more than 28 days with no new cases of COVID-19 caused by community transmission and there is an extremely low public health risk from the virus\u201D, as is says in the paper I have here in her name titled COVID19 Alert Level 1 Controls, which I understand was discussed at Cabinet yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7d58a900c4745109e75557c1abf240e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that we have made fully and widely available the settings of alert levels 1, 2, 3, and 4, and in the criteria for decision making it does say, \u201Ctrends in the transmission of the virus, with the threshold varying by alert level, including the director-general\u2019s confidence in the data.\u201D So, yes, we\u2019ve included a period where we haven\u2019t had cases\u2014keeping in mind we\u2019re only up to 12 days presently\u2014but also the number of days where we haven\u2019t had a case from community transmission, which was roughly about a month ago now. But that is not the only criteria. The director-general has to be confident in the data. We know there is asymptomatic transmission. We know there is a long tail. I would rather move once, do it right, and not continue to risk our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d42d738d28084e7490843928469fed8f\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: When was New Zealand\u2019s last case of community transmission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca5e059db54549668c3af8fe0b005366\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As I just said, it was at the beginning of May. However, that was not the last case that we had, which was, from memory, 12 days ago. I have to say I am alarmed at the suggestion from the member that, even with some of the loosest restrictions in the world, the member would still be willing to act against the advice of the Director-General of Health, open up before he has advised that we do so, and put at risk the huge effort and sacrifice of New Zealanders. I would rather do it once and do it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de1384eebc1e4167bf23669b6869434e\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Why did you say that it was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022355a3cc52b574e0e98d54e6e4835a6db\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! \u201CShe\u201D, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa9cb7fcbfa846e285e764474b0e267b\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: To the Prime Minister: how can you match that answer with the fact that on 20 May, you said\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cthe last case of community transmission where the source was unknown was early April.\u201D? That means we\u2019ve had now three full cycles of transmission with no community transmission cases in New Zealand\u201460 days since\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250579c643b4a4a1c8f2b62d638c91b56\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291d6a04b5bbe4f0b96ac1a111bcbaa16\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: We had a case that was linked to overseas travel but the overseas travel was outside the period of infection. So the view was that it could either have been community transmission or overseas travel. Again, the member forgets that that is but one of many criteria that we take into consideration, and we must listen to the advice not only of the scientists and epidemiologists but also the Director-General of Health. If the member thinks he knows more than all of them combined, I congratulate him, but I would rather listen to the advice, get it right, and not risk our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b6f972aa27a4581b8231acf83a08b01\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister been advised that as recently as yesterday, Australian states were reporting new cases of community transmission, and will the Government take that into consideration when considering the Opposition\u2019s urging to reopen the border with Australia with urgency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022747b3242bf4b4a95a37b8adf26da2a5b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. We of course are mindful of the impacts of every restriction on our economy, on our businesses, but I equally will not jeopardise the gains and sacrifices made by those businesses by either opening us before we\u2019re ready or moving alert levels before we\u2019re ready. I reflect on the comments made by a small-business owner that they would rather live with the restrictions now than risk going back later on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eda7f0b0eff54439ac01b4ea07e400bf\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Prime Minister, isn\u2019t it time for a captain\u2019s call on level 1 so that a team of 5 million New Zealanders can get back to rebuilding this country and recovering their jobs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205bf39e6491f43e094cdf8491135beb7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I have proudly made captain\u2019s calls all the way through, and it is one of the reasons that, alongside our team of 5 million, we are the envy of the world in terms of our position right now. I stand by every call I\u2019ve made and that\u2019s why we are waiting until 8 June.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4ded16949084e979a54cbc33f10f513\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e370582f3cda416381fbe5bd14efccec\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t tell if it\u2019s a point of order or a question, because of the yelling that is going on. I can\u2019t quite work out the reason for it today, but there seems to have been something in the water at lunchtime on my left, and I would like the volume to be turned down, and I would like the provocation to be turned off by the people who are not called to answer questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e4a65be17a485bb6b8446b70584705\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will she accept the urging from the Leader of the Opposition to make a captain\u2019s call to reopen the border with China with urgency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a94a66a870f4acb80ed4f40334a32ba\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No. And I do reflect on the fact that yesterday the member did say that he didn\u2019t have all of the information in front of him to make a decision around moving to alert level 1, and I would just reflect on that. I actually support the position the member took at that time. There are a number of things that have to be considered. Cabinet makes those decisions alongside the advice of the director-general and the best scientific advice we have. It has to be about moving as quickly as we can but as safely as we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f5aa3ceb8d945c7b7050c23ea883eb2\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that your vice-captain doesn\u2019t actually have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1e360b24da4409bac12d1e4d6a35280\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! No, look, I warned the member once and he sort of half corrected it, he did it again, and he\u2019s done it wrong again. My vice-captain is over there. Ask the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022902dbc87ee554d6ba8b09d2448b5757b\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: To the Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fcf724f9b664a63a351652f84219db2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Sir, to you!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022970c08325c954316b74e29264d98f300\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, for goodness\u2019 sake! I heard a very wise kaum\u0101tua on the radio this morning, talking about breaches of rules and the consequences of them. The member will stand, withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb094ab41f794e41a5fefb8b4dc46f37\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fcb24fdafce4918aa38483347fe0b83\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Why wait till midnight Wednesday, when the whole country needs us to be in level 1 today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa8c630e090e4372a82005a339116153\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Because the whole country needs us to not go backwards. The whole country needs us to move once and to do it right, and the whole country wants to move with confidence. The member does a disservice when he explains that the decision-making process is as simplistic as he describes\u2014it is not. We factor in a range of issues, including economic impact, including compliance, including transmission, and our unknowns. And I stand by every decision we have made to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b57cbd068134d6fada62319d2df065c\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well done, captain!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fab7677ef70143fc8134caa32ec319a0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, I think people will describe people correctly in the House from now on. We\u2019re not going to have a big argument about it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a6a4a26980e448fbaa30b2f2f51d6ad\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002293e9f02b6d814d0db712a095a16d1296\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293e9f02b6d814d0db712a095a16d1296\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What is the Treasury\u2019s best estimate of job losses from being at level 2 as opposed to level 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002265cae393cd1a40e1b5eecb099571faa9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265cae393cd1a40e1b5eecb099571faa9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m advised that that would depend on the time spent at each level and other factors such as the global economic environment and the level of domestic activity under the different alert levels. Treasury\u2019s central Budget forecasts assume that the country would be at level 4 for a month, level 3 for a month, and then either levels 2 or 1 for the remainder of the year to March 2021. Treasury assumed growth in employment\u2014i.e., a net increase in jobs\u2014from the start of the September quarter, beginning 1 July. This is a period in which Treasury assumes the country is either at level 2 or level 1. Therefore, employment growth is expected under both levels 2 and level 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df3158307a1f4772bc73607bbc6a49fa\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Can he understand the anger of small-business people seeing their businesses taken closer to the edge every day they remain under restriction, when the general public, including the Prime Minister and her selfies, seem to have moved on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b390ad80446242968d8d8259c599409d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know about the end of that question, but I share the view of most New Zealanders that we should do this job once and do it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b74e386018f4d0ba07c4ce6191f8cf3\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Can he understand the frustrations of AJ, owner of Novelty restaurant in Botany, who normally operates with 100 patrons but under level 2 can only operate with 30 to 40 patrons, and who said today, \u201CEvery day we stay at level 2, it really threatens the very survivability of the business\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f612390b038b44afb67a96a9994764e1\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the frustration of many New Zealanders that COVID-19 has arrived and had such a massive impact on our society and our economy. But I also believe\u2014and I think I\u2019ve seen survey work to back this up\u2014that New Zealanders back the idea of doing this job once and doing it right. I invite the member to look around the world at other countries who have not had the success New Zealanders have, who face many, many months of restrictions. We\u2019ve done well. We\u2019ve just got to finish the job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8f41bb73a7c4df79f29dece839819d0\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Rather than continually congratulating himself and his Government, would he not do better to acknowledge that as one of the most isolated countries in the world, with a small, sparsely spread, and relatively young population, New Zealand should have led the world in getting on top of the virus, and we have? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8ffa77f3d404e939c08db3f1ecd3edd\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there are certain geographical advantages in New Zealand, but I think the member does a disservice to the 5 million New Zealanders who sacrificed a great deal to get us to the position we\u2019re in. We should be proud of New Zealanders\u2019 efforts, not belittling of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a67ded107834262a47012e20a60be01\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the finance Minister that if this is, as was just posed, a relatively young country, why would they be wanting to put the retirement age up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a462cd204d841dbbb1dcc902c65f705\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! It\u2019s just too tangential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f36b64af0c047bf9acec9769483ab29\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Why can businesses not return to normal operations without current restrictions, when the Director-General of Health, Ashley Bloomfield, has said there is \u201Cno evidence of community transmission in New Zealand\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aac176ed9dd648f6864ac21799c59eb2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: This matter has just been covered by the Prime Minister in answering the Leader of the Opposition, so I invite the member to share their questions with each other in the future. But it would be fair to say that that is not an accurate representation of the views of the director-general. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219aa7668bc90452382fce67db0f0b5d5\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Why were 4,000 people able to gather to protest without any social distancing on Monday, yet businesses are being forced to abide by strict social distancing rules and gathering restrictions which are pushing many of them to the brink?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d9d9ad338544dcfbd3e1b499426aa63\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a fairly basic rule of life that one person breaking the rules doesn\u2019t justify it for everybody else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d75173a3caf5433b8ba8ba64a14e9264\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u002261a1b5e7d7d14249b0597e4d72301ef7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261a1b5e7d7d14249b0597e4d72301ef7\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What decisions has the Government taken on investing in training and education for people who have lost their jobs or who want to move into a different sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022442b0bf7f84746d0af2dc310ddb8de3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022442b0bf7f84746d0af2dc310ddb8de3c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The Government\u2019s trades and apprenticeships training package will pay the cost of learners of all ages to undertake vocational education and training over the next 2\u00BD years. The initial set of targeted areas that will qualify for this support, starting on 1 July this year and for the rest of 2020, include primary industries, building and construction, community support, manufacturing, mechanical engineering and technology, electrical engineering, and road transport. Further details are available on the Tertiary Education Commission website. Circumstances dictated that we needed to move fast, so for the beginning of 2021, we\u2019ll be refining these initial targeted areas to reflect the work that\u2019s under way across Government to better understand how industry workforce needs are being affected by COVID-19 and what skills will be needed to support the country\u2019s economic recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e17f4de01076469aa5d799895d1731bf\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Will apprentices have the same eligibility as people in other forms of training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b73923c9ce51482880eb553e05bb8bbc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No. All apprenticeships, including those outside of the targeted areas, will be eligible for the fees support. This is aimed at industries that are expected to be particularly hard hit by COVID-19, including hospitality, tourism, and food, where we want employers to keep their apprentices on, and we\u2019ll be supporting them to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ef0856e39214dafbd781b58b692157d\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: What response has he seen to the trades and apprenticeships training package?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed9fb80d462d4a4881754841a4e7a433\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: A very, very warm response\u2014heaps. Master Builders\u2019 representatives have said it\u2019s going to ease the burden of young guys wanting to get into the trade, because it\u2019s a cost they won\u2019t have to bear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aa43d3898f14e4c9ad8ea88b6bf601f\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Just guys?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228856e47b53954e6abe1178f140554e11\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Otago\u2014well, yes, that\u2019s right; there\u2019ll be some women wanting to get into the trades as well. The Otago Secondary Principals\u2019 Association have said the initiative would open doors to employment for school leavers at a time when many were closing. Representatives of the viticulturists\u2019 industry have said that it\u2019s really exciting for them. And the Southern Institute of Technology chief executive, Penny Simmonds, has said, \u201CWe believe the minister\u2019s release of initial programmes for supported training to aid Covid-19 recovery will stimulate demand for a number of \u2026 programmes SIT has expertise in. \u2026 This may mean SIT will need to run additional intakes, but we are well prepared \u2026 [and] able to do that.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a44efe876bcd4e1896d6ae7cd676424e\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Are the industries suffering the most economic harm, such as hospitality, tourism, and retail, missing out on this fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2ef619fe7f341bb831061a7807f737c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No. We want to provide training options, particularly where people are enrolled in pre-employment programmes that will lead them to strong job prospects. It doesn\u2019t make sense to encourage people to train in areas if the jobs aren\u2019t currently there. On the other hand, those who are already in training and on job training, we want them to complete their qualifications, which is why we\u2019re supporting existing apprentices in those areas to complete their apprenticeships. That means that we\u2019re supporting those whose employment could otherwise be adversely affected by COVID19.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c0d5b6ab2a5429b996727154b20c9ba\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Environment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d07ffa90a54e44a98abf570161f416a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d07ffa90a54e44a98abf570161f416a2\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Does he believe it is appropriate to impose new regulations on the rural sector, given it is likely that New Zealand is about to enter a recession?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00224f8eeda7f985463da31f557d595bd5b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f8eeda7f985463da31f557d595bd5b2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I believe that allowing pollution to get worse is both wrong environmentally and economically, because if it continues to get worse, it would cost more to clean up, not less. The new national environmental standards, in effect, hold the line. The changes under the national policy statement do not take effect for several years, by which time New Zealand is expected to have recovered from the economic impact of COVID-19. I note that the overall time frame to clean up all of our waterways to a healthy state is a generation, and that will span a number of economic cycles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e5443b2b4eb4ec9acd30ea6ca0c3d3d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned about the job losses and mental health pressures that the Ministry for the Environment\u2019s own analysis says will result from the regulations he\u2019s putting in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203e493a68db14df5bba9d4c2319d505b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The cost-benefit analysis, which is very, very thorough and has been peer-reviewed, says that while many important benefits can\u2019t be quantified, those that were quantified have an aggregate annual value of $359 million per annum up to 2050\u2014primarily from improved swimmability reducing health risks, ecosystem services, water storage as a consequence of wetland protection, and the like. The estimated costs are approximately $166 million per annum, which means that, overall, the net benefit is $193 million per annum over 30 years, excluding brand benefits, which can\u2019t be quantified but are positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf400ee9a60b41efbd2f12f2cd7cbf7f\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government focusing on putting new costs on the rural sector instead of resourcing local government in urban settings to clean up waterways, such as Remuera\u2019s Hobson Bay, where E. coli readings are 700 times safe levels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022279b2d21cfca42989dd6652a67a97752\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not. And to use the language that the ACT Party used to relate to, what we\u2019re doing is internalising externalities to avoid the tragedy of the commons. In respect of urban issues, we are applying the same standards to urban areas. I think it is noteworthy that the Auckland Council is bringing forward more than a billion dollars of expenditure to separate sewage from storm water to avoid the very issues that the member complains of, which I agree do need to be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002249b7c88ab9bd43159b8143bbb0fd53df\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002233c8b85eb2a149e18f4a3800a7e9b8ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233c8b85eb2a149e18f4a3800a7e9b8ae\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Has he received any advice regarding the number of health procedures unrelated to COVID-19 that did not take place as planned due to COVID-19; if so, what is his best estimate of the number of these procedures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022154184bbe1fe4184b53a90d0c3949269\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022154184bbe1fe4184b53a90d0c3949269\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E As I explained to the member previously, Budget 2020 included a one-off investment of $282.5 million to fund a planned care catch-up campaign following disruption caused by the COVID-19 global pandemic. Preliminary data suggests that approximately 8,500 elective and acute in-patient surgeries, 11,200 minor surgeries, 11,800 scans, and 3,200 endoscopy procedures were deferred. I\u2019m advised that the Budget 2020 funding will more than cover that level of deferred care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229f2a3a69e014c76a7b1337589638c60\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen the report of the Cancer Control Agency that concludes there were more than a thousand fewer cancer registrations in April 2020 compared with the same period last year, and a third fewer curative cancer surgeries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242ce8b49cec744f7aeddb583aa64149f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen that report. I\u2019ve also seen it\u2019s about 500 overall behind this year, because of that month in April setting back the number of diagnostics. It\u2019s true that there has been a global pandemic, and that the Government is prioritising catch-up. It\u2019s also good that cancer diagnostics were running ahead of previous years before the lockdown this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f26e52aa576b4acf9ca17d20af44cde4\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government\u2019s acceptable number of lives lost or shortened because of non-COVID health conditions during the lockdown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fee90d144a0744b49a239e94cb0bebcc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m advised that, in fact, clinicians are doing a very good job of prioritising the care needed. Of course, if people needed urgent care during the lockdown, they were able to get it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edea73b77a624b699744195860c4473e\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: So is it his position that non - COVID-related morbidity and death was unaffected by the lockdown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a448c4703dd420b9ef98161dc4c7db3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m advised that clinicians have been prioritising care appropriately. It is impossible, actually, to make that judgment at this stage, but I guess we have the international comparison, where countries that did not go hard and go early, that did not have a team of 5 million, have far worse outcomes, still have restrictions on access to hospital care, and are likely to do so for many months to come. I want to thank the hard-working clinicians that have made our response so successful by international comparison, and the New Zealanders who have worked so hard and made sacrifices to make that happen too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285014b75d0bf4ca0807cd88467a45a01\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: What firm plans, if any, have district health boards made to clear the publicly funded backlog of elective surgery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e36a1caa05184d8680eeeb9a39424af9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The DHBs are making detailed plans to ensure that they are delivering more care for more people; indeed, year on year, they have been doing that every year under this Government, and I\u2019m sure that the $3.92 billion record investment that this Government has put in in this Budget into DHBs will also make a significant difference. This Government has followed on from another Government that neglected the health system for nine years, that underfunded it, and, as a consequence, as we\u2019ve put more money in, we\u2019ve seen 1,500 more nurses than when we took office, we\u2019ve seen 900 more doctors, we\u2019ve seen 600 more allied health workers, and we\u2019re seeing more care for more people. I thank the member for the opportunity to outline the progress that is being made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226329d868c9de4ac9a78ae70fb402cc74\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if a detailed plan for clearing elective surgeries does exist, will he make it public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022029049bee08444b3bcae3d808832d583\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The DHBs, of course, have an annual planning process under way that will provide extraordinary detail on what they will be doing in the year ahead, and that will be, of course, public, as it is every year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f1a79dc5cfd4670b304554bfabfb217\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014M\u0101ori Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022c07d7d397e524514885105f6b521e2b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c07d7d397e524514885105f6b521e2b5\u0022\u003ETAMATI COFFEY (Labour\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for M\u0101ori Development: What announcements has she made to support M\u0101ori tourism operators? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022497602abab194ff0995a18408be348bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022497602abab194ff0995a18408be348bc\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister for M\u0101ori Development):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019ve acted to safeguard one of Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s icons of M\u0101ori tourism, Te Puia and the M\u0101ori Arts and Crafts Institute (MAKI), by investing $7.6 million over the next two years to safeguard the future of Toi M\u0101ori. The legacy contribution of MAKI has seen the teaching of carvers, weavers, waka exponents, and arts and crafts experts hone their skills and contribute to cultural revival over the last 100 years. This investment will continue their contribution as a training institute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2d71c8359bd48bcad220e7a0a0ede40\u0022\u003ETamati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: What additional support has the Government provided to M\u0101ori tourism? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022421aa1d86e13469a9392578b96596323\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: First, I want to acknowledge New Zealand M\u0101ori Tourism, who have a specific mandate to support the M\u0101ori tourism sector and the work that we do. In addition to the economic recovery packages the Government have announced for businesses, such as two rounds of wage subsidies and small-business loans, we\u2019ve allocated $10 million contingency of funding to New Zealand M\u0101ori Tourism to support the M\u0101ori tourism sector to pivot in the new environment. We\u2019ve supported the stand up of a business support service led by New Zealand M\u0101ori Tourism and supported by Poutama Trust and the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Development Inc. to help M\u0101ori small and medium sized enterprises\u2019 position during this challenging time. In addition to this, New Zealand M\u0101ori Tourism provides further specialist support for M\u0101ori tourism operators. We anticipate those businesses will be a key feature of local and regional tourism networks now and moving on into the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204905fa1b1e74020ac6255f3c325bd1a\u0022\u003ETamati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: How will the recovery of M\u0101ori tourism support an integrated network of tourism operators and an increased focus on regional destinations and experiences? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffdbb3a365f94a7392337b1e56b89a49\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: Fantastic question. The M\u0101ori tourism sector employs about 14,000 people across the country and includes some of the country\u2019s most iconic and globally renowned tourism attractions. M\u0101ori tourism\u2019s contribution to New Zealand is more than just financial. The network of M\u0101ori tourism businesses contribute to New Zealand\u2019s overall image, brand, and reputation. There is a unique point of difference on the world stage\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223884fbb686854d1dbe2ab7bfb1696598\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I\u2019m going to interrupt the member, partly because of the way she started and partly because of the very poor use of the word \u201Ciconic\u201D and the fact that the answer is far too long, as the others were. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233ea671397aa4ea0ab3808dfd432fbb2\u0022\u003ETamati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: What is the biggest challenge for M\u0101ori tourism operators as they pivot towards attracting a domestic tourism market while borders remain closed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebb48871fc314f399c3f46397b0a81a7\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: Undervaluing and underpricing our experiences and tourism product experiences because of the view that it\u2019s in our backyard. By getting behind our local businesses and tourist destinations, we can support the sector to rebuild its way towards a recovery that retains a strong and unique point of difference to any other country in the world. As the saying goes, \u201CLet\u2019s back our backyard\u201D. Value our language, culture, and local stories\u2014that way, we\u2019ll all benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d720d1c99f74e419e76da57a85ada51\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Foreign Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002256e360e7106b492e9d1e3b855ab499cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256e360e7106b492e9d1e3b855ab499cd\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: Has work by his officials on a trans-Tasman bubble progressed to a point where he can put a date on its start?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e58fa4bcab71480b9a18645de30e3304\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e58fa4bcab71480b9a18645de30e3304\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E We considered the issue of a trans-Tasman bubble even before New Zealand went into lockdown. Our responsibility was to try and anticipate every outcome and ensure that we make the right decisions when faced with tough choices. On 23 March 2020, before the lockdown began, I met with the chief executive of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and started our plan to develop a trans-Tasman bubble that day. We committed to talking to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Australia and begin communications on this project. The House should note that, at the same time, many, many countries weren\u2019t even thinking about the effects of COVID-19.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229457f5f7c8744b0daa8043d82683beed\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Have the parameters for a trans-Tasman bubble been discussed by Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f556552a82ad4f7f88f540c3df87d762\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It is true to say that Cabinet colleagues are well aware of the work that\u2019s been going on with respect to this. But, despite all the work that\u2019s gone on, this is not a decision that we can make just by ourselves. It has to be made with a country called Australia, which, unfortunately\u2014or fortunately, depending on how you look at it\u2014constitutionally has a federal system. And so it\u2019s also to be made there state by state, as you see. So if, for example, Australia is not travelling interstate, it\u2019s very difficult for us to go inter-country. But we\u2019re working as hard as we can on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d551949afed145cab4eb53c54070afbf\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: So have the parameters for a trans-Tasman bubble been discussed by Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022193f5b47cf8943bbaa7faa1b2c46eadb\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: If the member means by \u201Cparameters\u201D the restrictions, the answer is no, because, again\u2014because we do believe in consultation on this side of the House\u2014we\u2019re in full consultation with my counterpart in Australia, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Marise Payne. The Prime Minister has been in discussion with Scott Morrison, the Australian Prime Minister. And so, with respect to the parameters, that will be an agreement between both of our countries on all aspects of the trans-Tasman bubble as to when it gets started.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291b66b470d6d4b63b92d79b495b61a11\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does he appreciate that, without a publicly available time line, tourism business planning is very difficult and will lead to even more job losses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022528d68b79070454ca275a0f9e2329773\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I think the answer and evidence for that is that on 23\u00A0March, before we went into the lockdown, my department started work with DFAT Australia to ensure that when the time came for us to be able to inter-country travel, we\u2019d be ready. Yes, we do appreciate that. That\u2019s why we didn\u2019t waste one day of our time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226038ef2a6414467d9b8677bd8cccb87e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Then would he be prepared to speculate for the House about what a time line might look like? In the absence of an official time line, at least some hope for those businesses might be able to be given to the House by the Minister today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb911a27c374696b8940e7f4b237923\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I say that if one wanted to cross one\u2019s bridges before you got to them, you might talk about speculating, but that would be irresponsible in the extreme, because we\u2019re talking with other countries and other states apart from Western Australia, Tasmania, Queensland, New South Wales, and, dare I say it, in time, Victoria. And to say you\u2019re going to get up and speculate about something like that, when the province of decision making lies in their hands as well, would be utterly wrong. That\u2019s why we\u2019re in foreign affairs. We do things with tact and diplomacy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b959bbe6ffa64711acc7451847e12705\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Then is it reasonable for New Zealanders following this question to assume that there\u2019s been no point where a trans-Tasman bubble can be identified as likely to occur?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b288d7d7b7d1445891ea099511cc6e2a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It would be entirely wrong to be misled by such a forecast or prescription as the one we\u2019ve just heard. The truth is, as I\u2019ve said, on 23 March we started working on this. It requires us to go interstate as well. I know, for example, the Premier of Tasmania has said he wants to open up now. We know that New South Wales has a similar view. There\u2019s a tremendous number of people in the tourism industry in Queensland who also want the same, but the state is not ready yet, by their public pronouncements. We have got a system of Government unlike theirs. They have a federal system; the decision has to be made not just by Canberra but by every state capital. It makes it very complex, but it doesn\u2019t mean that we have not, with fervour and unction and urgency, got on with the job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ff691b2db44e2bad1a58b6ba2c98bb\u0022\u003EHon Stuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any politicians advocating for a bubble with China, and what is his view on that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215f8ffdb6c00432fa0a73c38113eae4a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I can say yes, I have seen that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e1ebbdd4c14426da2e0108eaa5d6ccb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I\u2019m going to interrupt. The question was one relating to the trans-Tasman, and the Tasman Sea doesn\u2019t go that far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228051521f4bf245e3b79e49fded183fd4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You might say that, excepting that when that was propositioned in this House, there was a suggestion that it did go that far and that we add it to the trans-Tasman bubble. That\u2019s why I think it\u2019s apposite and relevant. Can I answer it please, because I\u2019m certainly prepared to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d03b7ce928b4ada8a08ed1c0cc8a5d2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the question had been phrased in that way, then the member would have been allowed to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269dc2fc9cb504648997d5f2463246aa2\u0022\u003EHon Stuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: With regard to a trans-Tasman bubble or any other bubbles opening up, has the Minister of Foreign Affairs heard suggestions that there should be any other countries that we should form a bubble with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205400773cb234b78930f81a8281d89c4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is: most certainly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea8acc9f45d448739991356e641c2dfb\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I can understand why the Minister wants to answer that question. It might save a little bit of grace for him, given the answers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b43a8f312949426ea890e53c99306d2a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Have we got a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d9802ac62924b96878127ce8d88d551\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217811773415d4156a878e19731c5a47b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, get to it, because the member is not starting that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022a1300397d431e8b46991ef24bd572\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Surely, simply by referring to the trans-Tasman bubble and then asking for \u201Cany other\u201D is not strictly in line with the primary question that\u2019s been carefully put on the Order Paper today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9eb6c0834d0490e903cfeabaf87f6e0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s absolutely right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002213aac9e3c0a144108558216e925b08bc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe6beba23f9b4ae481a0037b454b65ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe6beba23f9b4ae481a0037b454b65ee\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Did officials recommend in the Cabinet paper released in June 2019 titled \u201CProgressing our plans to deliver light rail in Auckland\u201D a process for Auckland light rail that would have allowed all market participants the opportunity to bid for the delivery of the project; and when, if ever, does he expect to take light rail to Cabinet next?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00220b045f78a77144de86260cd03d243e65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b045f78a77144de86260cd03d243e65\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E One of the options presented to Cabinet would have allowed a full market process, but there were a range of options, and Cabinet was advised on the pros and cons and the trade-offs between them. It\u2019s not in the public interest to reveal the officials\u2019 recommended option, as this matter is still being considered as part of both the commercial process and Cabinet decision-making. I expect to take a paper to Cabinet about light rail in the coming weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e5aa75b6ba44ed8bfc6883d11b1587f\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Was it the preferred approach of officials that there be a process for Auckland light rail that would\u2019ve allowed all market participants the opportunity to bid for the delivery of the project?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227abb551224ca425cad8d1fab94f73614\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Light rail is an important part of our Government\u2019s solution to Auckland\u2019s growth and congestion problems. Cabinet first gave the New Zealand Transport Agency leadership of this project, then we received an unsolicited bid from NZ Infra, and I thought that bid was worth serious consideration. I took to Cabinet a recommendation that we look at both of those options as part of a twin track process, and this was following advice from officials that there were a number of options that could be taken at that time. We\u2019re now in the middle of that process. It\u2019s a commercial-in-confidence process. This Government believes in behaving ethically in business and in good-faith negotiations. We\u2019re not able to reveal the details until this process is complete, as we must retain the integrity of both the commercial process and Cabinet decision-making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aca1a1808f1b4085883fe34078e5c0b2\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: How does it affect the integrity of the commercial decision-making process to reveal that his officials\u2019 preferred approach was contrary to the one that Cabinet undertook?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e14b5252f0024e62af5d7ebed1c7d110\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Because we\u2019re in the middle of a process that was agreed by Cabinet, the matters are subject to commercial probity, and the Cabinet decision-making process is under way. We should let that process run its course. It\u2019s not in the public interest to reveal those matters at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2fc6c3c17ce46f1a770421f8837177b\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Why will he not tell the public that Treasury and officials advised him to open up the process for Auckland light rail to wider market participants than just the Transport Agency and NZ Infra?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1b5f95720f94b0f91a9d9ff81289561\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve already explained that Treasury and the Ministry of Transport had input into the paper that set out a number of options, including going out to the full market, that the paper, the advice that went to Cabinet, included consideration of the pros and cons of those options and the trade-offs between them. Cabinet considered all the options and Cabinet took the decision to run the twin track process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222737acb0dac44b86b1a36fbad3d238d9\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Will Cabinet consider Auckland light rail after 19 June 2020 when the pre-election period commences?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f130763aee18426a9ae2c9a8615b13be\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: As the member probably knows well, it would be unwise in a Cabinet process to put a precise date on that, but, as I\u2019ve already said, I intend to take the light rail paper to Cabinet in the coming weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293dc8d2a79864b09904ce9c7ba665ba4\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Has he been advised of any risk that NZ Infra may choose to walk away, given that he hasn\u2019t announced a delivery partner for Auckland light rail, and, as he\u2019s just said, it has to be decided before Cabinet by 19 June?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269a252598efc42af9fdf74fa91728994\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not prepared to divulge the detail of a mountain of advice that was received on this matter, but I think that if the member looks at reports that have been in the media in recent days quoting NZ Infra, he\u2019ll see that his assertion doesn\u2019t hold weight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022452ed9282936490b9b268efe51e3afb9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Forestry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f11bd4b69ebe40edbc3526543c100176\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f11bd4b69ebe40edbc3526543c100176\u0022\u003EHon TRACEY MARTIN (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Forestry: What recent announcements has he made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e416c2692d644803a552a865508965da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e416c2692d644803a552a865508965da\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E Along with my colleague the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, from the one billion tree fund, the Government, through my good self and my colleague, have announced $10 million to aid planting wetlands and waterways, create jobs in communities, and improve the environment. In addition to this, it will boost the local nurseries but, most importantly, provide sorely needed jobs in the rural community in the primary produce sector. [Hon Shane Jones knocks over glass of water]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293bc79f2ce25449fa772430b8243318a\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: How will this build on other initiatives which protect our wetlands and waterways?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219de882719e640969d52600ab2f7ccf7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking of wetlands!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4b8c409ee774d6bbfe934c4a45e744b\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I do have a reputation as being a Minister who\u2019s hot to trot, and I\u2019ve now been cooled down. I accept that. Last year, in a neglected part of Aotearoa, the Waiap\u016B catchment, we allocated a sum of $5 million, and, in fairness to my colleagues from the other side of the House, it was picking up an obligation that they took on board in the settlement of the Ngati Porou claim. We worked out that in areas such as that, catchment improvements are not possible until we get the nephs off the couch and teach them, actually, how to start fencing again. We bring forward people that have been dislocated from the job market, and we hope to continue doing that with the $80 million recently announced for waterways, riparian planting, and stock reticulation. There is so much to talk about, and more will be stated as we move closer to a certain date towards the end of the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214e344a9c12d4372a3831dcb106ee4a5\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: What other announcements has he made recently?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c236317802884687877ff8d5de580cdb\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s important that we bear in mind that it\u2019s not only about growing trees and environmental resilience but it\u2019s also investing in the next generation. Ng\u0101 Karahipi Uru R\u0101kau, forestry scholarships, have recently been announced. This is to encourage young women, those who have already left school, M\u0101ori school-leavers, and, indeed, anyone who wants to invest time, money, and effort in gaining a qualification so that we can turn the forestry sector from a low commodity game and increase both the skill, the talent, and the transparency, in particular, amongst those who play a role in advisory services and our log mongers\u2014and need a great deal of training and education to ensure that our future industry is on the strongest footing possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002285f25543c516455eaae5a315e7bcc9e7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Customs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1fb81f85ad545818ddb0a922abf8ecf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1fb81f85ad545818ddb0a922abf8ecf\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Customs: Does she agree with the statement by Steve Sullivan from Nelson\u2019s marine engineering company AIMEX that \u201CThe Government\u2019s policy to refuse entry of vessels for engineering and maintenance work is costing jobs and millions of dollars in work\u201D, and does she stand by her department\u2019s decision to refuse entry to the fishing vessel the Captain Vincent Gann?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022dca69c9b77c24bec9266c56693909669\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dca69c9b77c24bec9266c56693909669\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I do stand by Customs\u2019 decision to give effect to immigration rules. This Government\u2019s position has continued to be that the best economic response is a strong public health response. While I appreciate this is an incredibly difficult time for many businesses in New Zealand, our Government has made unprecedented support available for businesses like AIMEX. I encourage them to take up any and all support that they are eligible for from the Government during this unprecedented time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cb3d274060c40bdab88282ae11c7ce0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister saying it\u2019s better for New Zealand for companies like AIMEX to take a wage subsidy rather than actually letting them do the work that earns the company and the country income?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255ab6c5082734b49a7cebecfe04b8c11\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: The question is mainly about whether or not we allow a fishing vessel like this to come through. The decision made by the Government has not been to open up our border. We are 12 days into having zero COVID-19 cases, with only one active case. In terms of foreign ships, on 26 May a foreign fishing boat emerged as one of the points of transmission where a foreign-flagged, foreign-crewed vessel with 29 members of its crew being COVID-19 positive was heading towards the Pacific. A vaccine is not yet available for COVID-19, so the fact is that we are focused on saving lives and focused on public health. We are now looking at the recovery of our economy, but I stand by our Government and our response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb5d7664c75e4c54a76675508a638083\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she state yesterday in this House that the Customs refusal to allow entry of the Capt. Vincent Gann from American Samoa to New Zealand was based on advice of the ministry and Director-General of Health, when her department has admitted it never sought any advice from the Ministry of Health or the director-general on that vessel from American Samoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202f79050c8924366b3b64b7fe7c8e592\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before the member answers, I heard at least three members from this side make comments as to a member\u2019s pronunciation. I think that we all know that we have a variety of skills in this area, and it ill behoves members, unless they think they\u2019re absolutely perfect, to criticise in that way. It will stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb8ca9405aac4e56bc2f47fed6ddb31a\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: The question that the honourable member asked me yesterday was whether I stand by Customs\u2019 policies and actions\u2014a very general question. Then he followed up with the question about this particular vessel. Had he put down a specific question like that, I would have been able to answer in specific ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f76282530e54412ba4c81de0d717e333\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that the COVID-19 risks for the fishing crew from American Samoa are far less than from the film crew that\u2019s been allowed in by the Government from California, when American Samoa has had zero cases and zero deaths, and California has had 115,000 cases and 4,200 deaths?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d30a79751784d438b67193645d790c0\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: I reiterate that this particular ship was a foreign-flagged, foreign-crewed ship. They were not all Americans or American Samoans on that particular ship. Customs enforces the rules and laws that Parliament and Cabinet set. The exemptions for visas are by the Minister of Immigration and the exemptions for jobs are by the Minister for Economic Development. The honourable member, who has been a member for many, many decades\u2014more than me\u2014should know if he was to put down this kind of question who the right Minister is to ask about these sorts of issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210ee2ea93c1b4d75b8f0c9216ffd37f2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I looked at the question, I looked at the responsibility, and I thought it has been put to the wrong Minister, but it is the Government\u2019s responsibility to transfer it, and the Government should have transferred it, if the member really thinks that the answers to this should be given by other Ministers. It\u2019s no good coming to the House and saying it was put down the wrong Minister. If the member thought that, it was her ability to transfer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d02792f9bdca443ea41cf19a5e9bb4c4\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The issue with this particular question that\u2019s been put down is it covers a number of Ministers\u2019 areas of responsibility and the Government cannot anticipate what supplementary questions the member putting the question down may choose to ask. He could well have asked a series of supplementary questions directly related to this primary question that related to the responsibility of the Minister of Customs. The Minister of Customs could not transfer this question to another Minister on the basis that she thought he might ask a range of questions that weren\u2019t related to her portfolio. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae23cc5118c4ad1b084fec5802b3b0c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m going to deal with that one first, and if there are further questions, I\u2019ll deal with them later. I looked very carefully at this question when it came in. I read yesterday\u2019s Hansards on it. It became clear to me at that stage that her department was giving effect to a decision that was made by another department, and, in fact, it was not her department\u2019s decision to refuse entry to the fishing vessel; that decision had, effectively, been taken or was the responsibility of other departments. Therefore, in my opinion, it would have been better if the question had been redirected to those people, but it was not at the point where I was prepared to strike the question out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b52c9e0306c94a3f87b1f160214627a1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad4ba7ebe52d43339444827074c6b105\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re not speaking to the point of order. I\u2019ve dealt with the point of order. There is no point of order there at the moment, so unless there\u2019s a new one\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232943be0b807432493040c333016fa78\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is a point of order in the House that the question itself was about the Minister\u2019s own statements in this House\u2014supplementary question, I should say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274c041c841b6479983a9f733d6b5f3a4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it wasn\u2019t. The member should read the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294e127e40b444d0583b98670e2a2dc5c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the email from the Customs department to the company concerned, saying the vessel could not enter New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f485848ffb4649f98beee680fbd147ea\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen the email, and I\u2019ve also heard and listened to the background to it. I\u2019m quite happy for that to be put. I think it\u2019s already part of the system because it was part of the authentication to the question. Is there any objection to its being tabled? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9251e8e66f648a8a78c45ca0705f40d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by the advice of her Customs officials, dated 21\u00A0May, that the Capt. Vincent Gann, that has previously had $6.5 million of work in Nelson, should, and I quote, \u201Cundertake the repair work in Hawaii.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7dd855f8fd049b39f06cd341646a42d\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: I do stand by Customs\u2019 decision to give effect to the immigration rules. I am informed that the ship was not advised to head to Hawaii by New Zealand officials; rather, it was asked why it was not heading to Hawaii because it was requiring repairs immediately. I understand that Hawaii was the nearest port at that time for this foreign-flagged, foreign-crewed ship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285ffe97d2de64cb0a1a945944fadfbe0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Will she or any of her ministerial colleagues visit the Port Nelson marine engineering base and directly explain, to the workers that will be losing their jobs in the next weeks, Government policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f02b7811ec1247f79c390f294e453748\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: I will take advisement from Customs officials on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002287ab3abb5fc74ea98fc2efc9a4acec9b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00227016b7ef3d35427f8714da5e6c40a50d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227016b7ef3d35427f8714da5e6c40a50d\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Employment: How do the performance and policies of Mana in Mahi compare with all his employment programmes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcd50d701c584c4f8acbc8ed836779a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcd50d701c584c4f8acbc8ed836779a8\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister of Employment):\u003C/span\u003E As the member will be aware, Mana in Mahi is primarily an apprenticeship-type programme. However, it differs from other programmes in that it also recognises employment and qualifications that are industry led and includes pre-employment training, incentivised payments that keep participants connected and energised in their placements, and provides pastoral care, which is why of the 729 participants who have come on to the programme, 81 percent have exited benefit dependency and have not returned. These outcomes compare favourably to other similar employment programmes, despite Mana in Mahi supporting those most disadvantaged in the labour market. Mana in Mahi is very distinct from other employment programmes I have responsibility for, and comparing Mana in Mahi to programmes, for example, such as He Poutama Rangatahi, does a disservice to both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a116772ae2b848979ebe19b62efdfc5b\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: When he said last week that he has oversight for five critical employment programmes, what are those five programmes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7e79e1709ae460095d541890d2f48d0\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have oversight for Mana in Mahi, He Poutama Rangatahi, cadetships through Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, the M\u0101ori apprenticeship fund, skills and jobs hub, and regional skills leadership groups. I was one short; it was actually six, but thank you for the question. As well as that, I have oversight in terms of the New Zealand Employment Strategy, which concentrates on vulnerable groups: M\u0101ori, Pasifika, disability sector, ethnic groups\u2014all the groups that the National Government forgot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a6d1ad55f544be38ac34b9d51d58b7e\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Does Mana in Mahi have an age cut-off at 24 years of age, and, if, so, what proportion of people currently needing employment are automatically ineligible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292be5655d2774bb3b58030d29af04212\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: We primarily concentrate in terms of the 18- to 24-year-olds. We are looking to expand the criteria in terms of Mana in Mahi. In terms of the member\u2019s question, I\u2019ll come back to him on that if he wants to put it in writing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c433b0211f044708ab39de2374033f99\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: How does Mana in Mahi\u2019s projected capacity of 2,000 participants compare with National\u2019s JobStart, which would employ 50,000 people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5c1ac6e619e47c886a0b80fe9d7fb6d\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think National\u2019s JobStart is just a dream, like their silly promotion of $5,000, or $10,000, I think, to the employer. Mana in Mahi is a much better programme. As our Prime Minister explained very eloquently yesterday, we are looking after the employer, we\u2019re looking after the worker, and, in fact, we\u2019re looking after the community\u2014a community that that member should remember he represents, and he appears to have forgotten over the last couple of weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260b4f62f39eb4125927c87873c9f0499\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say about work ethic as a performance measure when the statement is made that under Mana in Mahi, the employer doesn\u2019t have to worry about whether or not a trainee turns up to work every day; and is that statement a fair assessment of Mana in Mahi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220009dfe2288e4aad893ba8cc11aa082c\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it\u2019s not, and I\u2019m not sure who said that. It disappoints me that this member has taken that position, given the 81 percent success rate in terms of Mana in Mahi\u2014an 81 percent success rate. It\u2019s a programme that is incredibly successful and continues to be successful, unlike the National Party, that just keeps dropping in the polls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022262518fddb95469ba1095449b045c862\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Will he then ask the Prime Minister to correct her statement in the House yesterday, given that it was her who said \u201C[Mana in Mahi] provides pastoral support so the employer doesn\u2019t have to worry about whether or not a trainee shows up \u2026 [to] work every day.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022949c5a7b6365436886ba7e0e60b1dbdb\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think, again, sadly, that\u2019s a low-down, dirty, rotten perspective of what our wonderful Prime Minister said yesterday. He knows that and this House knows that\u2014disgraceful, again, from Mr Reti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6e93ce6b2f344f2bdc85ef06ade6134\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know you take a fairly lenient view on some of these more animated questions, but I think it\u2019s inappropriate for any Minister answering a question to refer to a statement made and recorded in Hansard as low-down and dirty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231b3cef88b9d405cbe1b58914f043dda\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m relatively prim and proper myself, but I think\u2014[Interruption] All right, maybe I shouldn\u2019t do irony in rulings. I think low-down and dirty is not quite as low-down and dirty as many things that have been said here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cca16607cc954d609b1f39b3f7386e04\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How many reports has he received from excited members of Parliament up north on the enormous M\u0101ori Mana in Mahi programmes\u2014for example, with KiwiRail and the hundreds of jobs coming there and all sorts of Provincial Growth Fund developments around the north\u2014and how many of the Northland MPs have congratulated him on that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229321e541c8ef43c8a61fe46643aa3ee3\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, without doubt, the New Zealand First MPs have made a huge contribution. Though it\u2019s interesting, people like Matt King turn up and congratulate us all the time. Northern National MPs, they hide\u2014they actually ask us not to reveal their names when they come to Shane Jones\u2019 launches. It\u2019s been a huge success in the Tai Tokerau, and New Zealand First and Labour and the Greens have been working brilliantly in conjunction in terms of getting the nephs off the couch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b8e547a076f4704a1456646e1e3661f\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: How does Mana in Mahi compare with other employment initiatives that he has seen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292b8b3403c1a4b359e1b44d17ab296fa\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora. As the member will be aware, Mana in Mahi has been brilliant, and I\u2019ve heard that in terms of the initiative, it compares so well with JobStart, which has a 5K start-up payment and another 5K to be paid in 90 days. Mana in Mahi, on the other hand, when you compare Mana in Mahi with that National Party programme, is made up of a $9,580 wage subsidy but goes further and covers payment for any pre-employment training that is a required, incentivised training payment\u2014a total of $25,000. So we don\u2019t need to create new programmes for the sake of creating them. Mana in Mahi is doing the business at the moment, and it\u2019s actually embarrassing the National Party so much that they just keep asking questions about it, which is fantastic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251df871ef4c54e769ad39a48af1a91bb\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: What is the average truancy rate for Mana in Mahi over any time frame he chooses, given the Prime Minister said yesterday that with Mana in Mahi the employer doesn\u2019t have to worry about whether or not a trainee turns up to work every day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ff801dc99b34c59a85821df5d632709\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I take offence at the member twisting our Prime Minister\u2019s words. I\u2019ll say again\u2014I\u2019ll say again: Mana in Mahi has an 81 percent success rate. It had an 84 percent success rate, but it dropped a bit over a couple of weeks by 3 percent to 81 percent. But that indicates to me that Mana in Mahi is still incredibly resilient when over the same period that it dropped, I saw the National Party support had dropped by 17 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bf6ec9ef1a4483b9bc893b785d113bf\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the performance of Mana in Mahi or would he prefer to write off young people as \u201Cpretty damned hopeless\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0550e6ce5f6497bade37c1287991af0\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, sadly, I\u2019ve heard that statement from members from the other side. And you could never write off something that has been so crucial in terms of uplifting young people. You know, we renamed that. In fact, I renamed the Mana in Mahi programme. It used to be called \u201Cworking for the dole\u201D, which is what the National Party wanted it to be called. So this is a programme that is changing society and changing this country. And I welcome Shane Reti to come to some of our programmes, because despite everything I\u2019ve said about him, he is a respected member in the North.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c8291c2f3c34dce84e830e1af25ca94\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister really think that the Government\u2019s entire re-employment programme should be based on Mana in Mahi, which over its time so far has only placed about 650 people in permanent employment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb6e1e14c60e478baa6e09e9aad6fbc2\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Seven hundred and twenty-nine, actually, Mr Brownlee\u2014729 and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef82185047ad4dac854e08c376c81bfa\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d52bac8ff4d448daeedb82a39a4d9d1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, look, this is a warning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e25a2a03ec184b099d7857920024167a\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I\u2019m happy to have your warning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb03d1b931de4b9980d923a84e5f3c91\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, the member\u2019s on a warning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c95638117072424fac4c380942717f54\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member\u2019s just stood up and said that there are 729 permanent jobs. Previously, he said there were 729 placements with an 81 percent success rate. So my number is correct; his is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c77b36329df47a99a4d757ae16def91\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! How long has the member been here? Certainly long enough to know that he doesn\u2019t dispute an answer, especially partway through it, but at all, by way of a point of order. Today feels like it\u2019s a Thursday afternoon just going into a recess. Again, I say I don\u2019t know what\u2019s in the water on both sides of the House, but I will ask people to settle down. And as I\u2019ve reminded the author of the words earlier, further breaches will result in consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210463e4cdc3f422f9d24de9692f9a7f7\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f57c167ac144dfba779612e0793a1e1\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279254ea58e7544bd9766ec70de2d1dd6\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Has the performance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c91bc6e8d0fa4481b88dcd2c95263fc0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I\u2019ll make it very clear. The answer was interrupted by the member, and I decided at that point that because he improperly interrupted, he didn\u2019t want to hear any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ead7f09804404720bfe44c5af5d7d18f\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Has the performance of Mana in Mahi been impacted by COVID19?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1f52565bcb243ceab7de0d82b005512\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it has. Not hugely\u2014not hugely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ae18ecfd7eb4fc88d495efc21556629\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What about work from home?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220868553e6f6341d5a1ae2c703bc31b59\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, Mr Brownlee, when I appeared before the Epidemic Response Committee, Mana in Mahi had a success rate of 84 percent. So over four weeks, later on, it dropped by 3 percent. So, yes, it has been affected, but only slightly. But it just indicates to me that Mana in Mahi is incredibly resilient, unlike the National Party, that dropped 17 percent over the last three weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266168e1aec994a358ece26323969201c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Mana in Mahi flexibility programme able to, for example, accommodate an ageing politician from the South Island in 3\u00BD months\u2019 time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218916ead29e941e2a4fd23afdf265eb6\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll take everyone on. We don\u2019t discriminate. We don\u2019t care what political parties they\u2019re affiliated to. And even if Mr Brownlee wants to apply, we\u2019ll put a good word in for him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7cbfc42a468440493c8de1e9e8cf9b8\u0022\u003EBudget Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba7f07518f2c4b5098d9595c716436a0\u0022\u003EBudget Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000217\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 2 June on the Appropriation (2020/21 Estimates) Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf37841e587c4d13bd2c047a6bf2217c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf37841e587c4d13bd2c047a6bf2217c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is my pleasure to rise to take a call in this debate. I think it is worth us reflecting on the privileged position we are in, in this House, to be routinely meeting as an assembly of lawmakers and to be in this unique set of circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think, even more broadly, it is worth us reflecting on the incredibly liberal way in which we are living our lives in New Zealand now, compared to the rest of the world. That was made possible because of our team of 5 million. We all know that we are in unprecedented times of both a health and a global crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand, it was our team of 5 million who have set about eliminating this virus, and that same team of 5 million who are setting about kick-starting our economy. To hear today in this House the Opposition stating that they believed that we have done so well because of our geography I think belittles the contribution of every member of that team, every New Zealander who has sacrificed so that we are in the privileged position we are today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe all know that getting our country back on track is going to take time, but we\u2019ve made a strong start. What we have heard from the Opposition again in this House was not only the belittling of the team of 5 million and the sacrifices they\u2019ve made but the urgency that they are calling on to reopen the borders with Australia and China. They want to put our collective hard-won gains at risk with knee-jerk political reactions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThese are times that call for leadership. These are times that call for the type of leadership we have seen from our Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern; not these knee-jerk political reactions. We all want to see our borders reopen. We all want to see normality return. But New Zealanders do not want us to put their efforts at risk. New Zealanders do not want us to play roulette with the sacrifices that they have made, and that is something that we are committed to on this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOur economic response is working for New Zealand. We\u2019re protecting jobs, with more than $10 billion in wage subsidies already paid out to more than 1.6 million workers. Treasury has forecast that we could be growing again as soon as next year, with unemployment back to pre-COVID levels\u2014near-record lows\u2014within a couple of years. If we look around the globe, these are extraordinary projections and ones that we should rightly be proud of, and, of course, our COVID response, the Budget that we\u2019re here debating in this debate, comes on top of our $12 billion New Zealand Upgrade Programme, which was announced, in what seems an age ago, back in January. Our economy is well placed to weather the global downturn. The Government\u2019s response has cushioned the blow of COVID-19 for workers, for families, and for businesses, positioning well through the entire lockdown, right through to the recovery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EPrior to COVID, we were in the position of having interest rates, debt, and unemployment at low levels, and our books were balanced. This is the rainy day that we\u2019ve been saving for. As our Minister of Finance keeps telling us, we are in a strong position thanks to the careful management of the books in New Zealand over previous years. It is very pleasing to see the work that we have put in as a Government being endorsed by ratings agencies maintaining our Aaa position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo the Budget that was delivered this year is, obviously, a Budget that no Government ever expected to deliver. They were extraordinary times. The Budget that we delivered addresses some of the immediate needs as people find themselves out of work, but we have not let go of taking that future-focused vision as we approach our response phase, and it is vital that we do that as a Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe vision and leadership of our Prime Minister and our Minister of Finance means that we are in a great position to be able to bounce back and continue the strong growth prior to the emergence of COVID-19, because what our Minister of Finance delivered to us on Budget day was a jobs Budget. It\u2019s recognition of the fact that employment needs to be the central pillar in our response. This is evident in so much work that we\u2019ve done through our extension of the wage subsidy scheme, which has already put the over $10 billion I referred to into the hands of Kiwi employers and their employees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOf course, we also have record investment in trade training through the $1.6 billion Trades and Apprenticeships Training Package, which will provide opportunities for New Zealanders of all ages to receive trade training. One of the areas that I reflect on as a Christchurch MP is the lessons we must learn from the past. Throughout the Christchurch rebuild, we did not take the opportunity to train enough of our young people to be rebuilding our city. I am pleased to be a member of a Government that is not going to squander an opportunity like that and that is truly investing in skills and trade training. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut in the time that I have left, I particularly want to talk about something that I consider is of utmost importance to all New Zealanders, and that is ensuring that more people have suitable housing. I am extremely proud to be part of a Government that stood here on Budget day and announced it will be delivering an additional 8,000 new public and transitional homes. This not only addresses the chronic shortfall in housing that we are trying to fix but also gives confidence to the construction sector that they can see that there is a forward plan of work coming through public housing to them. It builds on our Government\u2019s record of delivering on public housing since we took office just a little more than 2\u00BD years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe evidence of our success is demonstrated in that the Budget delivered $100 million to fund the over-delivery of 1,650 public houses that were built ahead of schedule over the last 2\u00BD years. It is always a good position to be in as a Minister starting your talks with the Minister of Finance, pointing out that you need funding to fund your success in over-delivery in an area, and in the area of public housing we have done that. With the extra 8,000 houses that we have funded through Budget 2020, our Government will have delivered or have in its pipeline 18,350 public and transitional housing places, representing the largest public housing programme in decades. This turns around the decade before that saw us decrease our public housing stock by 1,500 homes. This is a Government that has put public housing back on the agenda of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis investment isn\u2019t just about making sure more New Zealanders have warm, dry homes to call home; it\u2019s also about supporting our construction sector because, on this side of the House, we will not repeat the mistakes we saw from the previous Government throughout the global financial crisis (GFC). We aren\u2019t going to stand back and leave the recovery to the market while the public housing waiting list grows and another generation is pushed further and further away from homeownership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe additional 8,000 public houses that we funded through this Budget will have an economic impact far beyond the $5 billion worth of investment that will be taken to build those houses. We will be supporting our local construction companies. We will be supporting the plumbers. We will be supporting the electricians. We will be supporting those small-business owners who deliver our small trades by making sure that there is a pipeline of work. Now is not the time to turn off the tap. We saw that from the previous Government through the GFC, and it is not a mistake that we will repeat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESomething else that I want to point out is that in the nearly one year that I have had the privilege of being the Minister of Housing in this Government, I am yet to hear a constructive plan from the Opposition on what they will do with housing. I want to know what the Opposition\u2019s plan is. What is their plan to support the construction sector post-COVID? What is their plan to support first-home buyers? What is their plan to reduce the public housing waiting list? What is their plan to tackle homelessness? What is their plan to support the aspiration of M\u0101ori and Pasifika in the area of housing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThat is what New Zealanders want to hear from their politicians at the moment. It is what they are hearing from the Government, but we are hearing deafening silence from the Opposition when it comes to a plan around housing. Our Budget delivers that plan. Not only does it deliver the plan, but it delivers the funding. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022796dbfd7039a454989c6bcaa0ed842ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022796dbfd7039a454989c6bcaa0ed842ee\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak on the Budget, but what I am sad about is when we look back in history and we compare this Budget to previous Budgets of previous Governments dealing with major financial crises. I think it is important to look back. Under the last National Government, when we dealt with the global financial recession, when we were staring down a decade of deficits, what we did was, when we were in that situation, we left New Zealand a legacy of some world-class infrastructure, whether it\u2019s ultra-fast broadband, which connected every school in New Zealand to uncapped, fast data for every school across the country, whether it was the Victoria Park Tunnel, or whether it was the huge number of roading projects that occurred. So when we look at this Budget and we look at this situation that we find ourselves in, it is important to understand the feelings of many New Zealanders\u2014but also of this side of the House\u2014to be disappointed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe reality is that we are in the largest economic crisis of a generation, and it is not good enough to turn up in this Budget and have a bucket of cash but not have detailed plans. What we have seen on this side of the House is that despite the largest economic crisis in a generation and 150,000 projected job losses, the linchpin of this Budget should have been job retention and job creation. The reality is we\u2019ve just heard from Willie Jackson about Mana in Mahi. This Government\u2019s plan in this Budget but also from Willie Jackson himself is 729 jobs. So when Megan Woods stands up in this House and tries to give the Opposition a lecture on what our plans are, I\u2019m very proud that our leader, Todd Muller, announced on Friday a plan for 50,000 jobs; not 729, Willie Jackson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EWhen we hear in this debate a lecture about building public houses, it is important to consider the backdrop, in which this Government promised 100,000 houses via KiwiBuild. So it\u2019s not OK to be turning up with tens of billions of dollars available and then not to be meeting the mark in terms of a large-scale project like KiwiBuild. The reality is this is a Government that is very, very good at press releases, but, actually, when it comes to the detail and delivery on every major measure, this Government has failed. In the area of transport and infrastructure, this Government has delivered very little. In the area of housing, this Government, again, by its own standards, is nowhere near what its targets were on KiwiBuild. So as we travel around New Zealand, we believe that this election will be fought on who is able to best power up and power New Zealand out of the largest economic crisis of a generation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EAgain, what that requires is some form of plan. What we saw in this Budget was, again, a contingency which enables members opposite to put out press releases of initiatives that are highly likely to never be delivered, because that is their record of 2\u00BD years in office. On the alternative side, our party is very focused\u2014very focused\u2014on the 480,000 small businesses, who need a few things. The first thing they need is certainty. That is why we are asking questions about level 1. It is our view that we should be able to move there. It\u2019s not just the view of the Opposition; it\u2019s also the view of the Deputy Prime Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EIt is incumbent on this Government to be able to turn up into the small businesses\u2014the butchers, the factories, the other shops and retail areas of New Zealand, and hospitality\u2014and tell those businesses why we\u2019re not in level 1 now, because that matters, and it\u2019s relevant to the debt that will occur for generations. If the Government spends every additional day with restrictions, then it will cost us more. So it is our view that we should be in level 1 now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe second area of our economic plan is absolutely ensuring that we do what we can to save these businesses. The wage subsidy has been great, but it is not enough. That is why, on this side of the House, we have put up very comprehensive plans around GST refunds. We understand that there are people now who are being let go, and we understand that there are many businesses in my electorate and in other people\u2019s electorates who are shutting their doors because the Government has not been able to provide direct cash flow and the Prime Minister has continued in this House to obfuscate and to put up a whole range of other things except for actual policy that will ensure that these businesses survive. That is why the other prong of our plan has been around job creation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EOn Friday, we announced the JobStart package, which is about $10,000 to enable an additional hire to really ensure that for those potential 150,000 people that find themselves unemployed, they actually have a hope of getting another job. This is the side of the House that understands the economy, that has a leader that has business experience, and that has the capacity to ensure that people are in work and that they are helped through this very difficult time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI turn my mind then to areas like education. Again, this is a Government that promised a huge amount. We know there are more than, I think, 40 promises in education that have not been delivered, despite tens of billions of dollars in this Budget. So the question for Ministers in the education area alone is where is the package around the viability of schools to get through COVID? The number of principals that have messaged me that are dealing with huge bills due to the loss of international students at their schools or due to a lack of fund-raising. There was not a package in this Budget to deal with those issues of financial viability for the schools across New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EWhat about the tertiary sector? Again, it was a huge hit around international students. In this Budget, there was $20 million for students for hardship. Again, that is nothing compared to the huge hit that the tertiary institutions of New Zealand have faced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003ESo where we find ourselves in terms of this Budget is that it is disappointing. We are going to be dealing with a more worse situation. Every day, we are talking to businesses across New Zealand and we\u2019re talking to families. They are in extraordinary hardship, and what we have is a Government that does not have the team to deliver. It does not have a record of delivery in the best possible times, and it doesn\u2019t have intelligent plans to be able to deliver and ensure that the 480,000 small businesses of New Zealand survive and keep families in work. It doesn\u2019t have a record of delivery across infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003ESo what we find, again, from Ministers is that they go across the country issuing press releases, but they fail, again, to actually deliver when it comes to execution, and this Budget is a classic case of that. We know that they will spend probably $10 billion in the next three months, and the reality is, when I talk to people in their 20s and 30s and 40s, they say this: \u201CThis is the rainy day. We want to invest in infrastructure. We want to invest in people and training. We want to invest in people and skills. We want to build houses. We want to do all of these things.\u201D, but what they expect is that we spend this money wisely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EWhat they know is that if we don\u2019t, there will be no legacy as a result of the greatest financial recession of our history. They will be working longer. They will be paying higher taxes. So we have a moral obligation in this House to scrutinise this Budget, to acknowledge that members opposite\u2014despite some amazing conditions until COVID\u2014have failed to deliver, and to acknowledge that in one of the worst periods of our history from an economic perspective, the heroes of this recovery, our small businesses, have been left high and dry. It is only National that has the plans, whether it\u2019s job creation in JobStart, whether it\u2019s GST refunds to keep those businesses afloat, or whether it\u2019s our infrastructure plan, of which Todd has said we will deliver the largest ever infrastructure plan in our nation\u2019s history. It is only National that has the team of people to execute that and that has the plans to deliver, and this Budget is a disappointment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u00223b7be594e44c4f97a6985604c7e3c6c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b7be594e44c4f97a6985604c7e3c6c4\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to take my call to speak to Budget 2020. I\u2019d just like to acknowledge my colleague opposite, Nikki Kaye, who\u2019s just resumed her seat, on being elevated to her new position as head girl of the National\u2014pardon me, as the deputy leader of the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EI will begin my contribution this afternoon acknowledging the health sector in the response to this global pandemic. It has been a highly successful public health response, and I think we can all agree with that. The way that every individual, whether they stayed at home, whether they were an essential worker and went out into their community and performed the function that was required of them\u2014everybody played their part, and we have had a really positive response. So a big thankyou, particularly to all those essential workers working in the health sector for keeping the hospitals and the medical centres ticking over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EBudget 2020 has a big number attached to it: $50 billion. There is another number I\u2019d like to mention right now, and that number is zero. It\u2019s a number that perhaps is a very small number, or maybe it\u2019s not even a number at all. But it\u2019s a number that, day after day, for the last 12 days in particular, we have wanted to hear that number: zero, zip, nil, nada\u2014cull\u2014new cases of COVID. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EThroughout the course of lockdown and over the last number of weeks, families and individuals gathered around their televisions or their iPhones\u2014maybe it was even with your teenagers\u2014and we watched at 1 o\u2019clock as the mighty Director-General of Health, Dr Ashley Bloomfield, told us about the situation of COVID. But, particularly, we have been watching with bated breath over the last couple of weeks to hear those words from him: \u201CNo new cases of COVID.\u201D, and so now we can focus our attention as a country on recovery and rebuilding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019d like to go back to a comment made by the previous speaker, who said that when they were in Government, they left world-class infrastructure. So I\u2019d just like to mention: can you tell that to the thousands who were left homeless under their watch? Can you say that they left world-class infrastructure when there was faecal matter oozing down the sides of public hospitals? I say no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EMy leader, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, in his statement said that \u201CIt\u2019s a Budget that responds aggressively to our present conditions, it\u2019s a Budget that will support our transition to recovery, and it\u2019s a Budget that has our people, New Zealanders, front and centre.\u201D This Government has been focused from the get-go in 2017, when we came into Government, on the people. Our health response was about protecting the people. Our economic response in Budget 2020 is about the people: getting them back to work and getting them back into jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to make note, as we turn to our recovery, of the health response inside Budget 2020: $5.6 billion in services and $755 million in capital investment, and $3.9 billion has gone to the DHBs because our DHBs are playing catch-up, and so that has been earmarked for healthcare spending over the next four years. Now, this is a deliberate intention to mitigate the consequences of past belt-tightening and retrenchment policies. Also, $160 million has been sent off to the combined pharmaceutical budget managed by Pharmac. Now, this critical investment takes Pharmac\u2019s medicines budget to a record $1.045 billion, and that\u2019s over the 2020-21 year. There is also $832.5 million for disability support services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003ESo as we move ahead into our recovery, I\u2019d like to highlight that a lot of people actually read a few books while they were in lockdown\u2014they had time and space to do that\u2014and one thing that was very disappointing for a lot of people was that the libraries were shut. They were shut because absolutely everyone was home. But now that people are back out into our communities, we can go back to these hubs of our communities, and something that my colleague the Hon Tracey Martin, through her budget of $58.8 million, has done is made an investment in our libraries so that we can ensure free internet access at all libraries. There\u2019s 600 libraries in New Zealand, with 2,500 employees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003ESo that announcement was made last week, and, on the very same day, the Auckland Council, basically, said that across all their libraries, for our relief librarians, they won\u2019t be getting any extra work. There will be no extra hours for librarians, if they needed to pick up a few extra hours of work. So, as the Auckland Council said, they will retrench in the library space. Our Minister said, actually, we need to invest in our libraries because of the importance of libraries being a connector in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we learn from history is that in times of crisis, often it will stimulate exciting new artwork. Now, we had an announcement about \u201CWhat will we do, and what is the role of art in the time of crisis?\u201D, so there is a new arts funding package. I\u2019d like to draw your attention to the fact that over history, we\u2019ve seen some incredibly inspired artworks that have come from a period of time when there was political and social turmoil. So I\u2019d take you back to the time during South Africa at the end of apartheid and the artwork that was being produced then, the Solidarity era in Poland in the 1980s, and also the time that accompanied the Berlin Wall coming down in the 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EDuring these periods of uncertainty and risk, there is an amazing amount of art that is produced. It forces a crystallisation of thinking, and we have now put in a package of $175 million to support the artists and the cultural creation in New Zealand, which I believe is not just about \u201CCan they produce more work?\u201D but also they have families that will be taken care of because there will be some income there for them. There is $7.9 million for Careers Support for Creative Jobseekers, $70 million for creative arts recovery, and $60 million over three years for a cultural innovation fund. So we are backing the arts in a really big way, because it is about people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EBack in the early 1900s, my grandmother Herene K\u012Bngi travelled from the North in Tai Tokerau to Rotorua to work at Whakarewarewa. She went down to Te Puia to be a guide. From the arts and M\u0101ori tourism package, $7.6 million has been delivered to Te Puia and the M\u0101ori Arts and Crafts Institute in Rotorua to keep our young people training in carving and weaving, ensuring those skills will continue to be developed throughout this recovery period. As a young girl\u2014because I grew up in Rotorua\u2014my dad learnt to carve, so I\u2019m really pleased that that institution, which has about a 100-year history in New Zealand, will continue to thrive because of the heart of this Government caring about our people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EI will just mention my connection up North, in Tai Tokerau and Hokianga, and the dreadful housing situation some wh\u0101nau find themselves in, whether it\u2019s homelessness or housing states that, really, no one should be living in. There is $40 million from the M\u0101ori and Iwi Housing Initiative, the M\u0101ori housing and development programme, and we saw it rolled out in a very real way as we went into lockdown in an immediate response, working with the M\u0101ori collective Te Kahu o Taonui. They sent up 60 campervans to the Far North to support homeless wh\u0101nau so they could be in a safe space and also be able to physically distance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EThis is a bold and exciting Budget package at a time where the country really needs to be united and to ensure that we can look after each other. We\u2019ve done the health package. We have taken care to ensure that we have, literally, isolated ourselves from the COVID crisis. Now it is time to take care of our people as we move forward into jobs and work, because it is necessary that we get the country moving again by getting our people employed, and where they can\u2019t have a job any more with that job, we can transition into new work. That will enable our economy to get moving again. So that is a grand plan, and I\u2019m proud to be part of this Government. Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002225bb248ecb8942ce91c09f947391b0a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225bb248ecb8942ce91c09f947391b0a1\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on the Budget debate this afternoon and have the document in front of me around rebuilding together. I have no doubt that six months or 12 months ago, the Government would not have had any plan to deliver this Budget in exactly the same way that they\u2019ve had to because of COVID-19, which means that it\u2019s required some quick thinking and some adjustment to the Budget figures. Also, as we\u2019ve seen, there\u2019s $20 billion that was in there that was unallocated. So in that regard, the fact that it\u2019s done with quick thinking means that it\u2019s going to require a lot more intense scrutiny, because when things are done in a hurry\u2014and we\u2019ve seen it with legislation in the House, in particular\u2014things do get missed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EOne of the first things I read at page 33, as I\u2019m going through the fiscal strategy, is that \u201CThe global COVID-19 pandemic has placed extreme stress on the global economy\u201D. That\u2019s true, but the Government of New Zealand is not responsible for the global economy, and neither can the Government use the global economy as an excuse for our own. It has an effect on it. It has an effect on trade, and, obviously, through this period with COVID-19, tourism, I would say\u2014as we all know\u2014is one of the biggest sufferers as an industry of the effect of COVID. So it\u2019s not an excuse, and, as we went through the global financial crisis a few years ago, we were one of the Governments\u2014led by John Key\u2014who was leading the growth economies around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo we can\u2019t use it as an excuse, but it creates some broader thinking, because, in any economy, there are the economic factors, the environmental factors, and then there are the social factors, and right now, as an economy, some of the things that have been under attack are going to be the very things that will save our economy and will provide the social wellbeing expectations that our people have come to believe in. So when we hear\u2014quite frequently these days\u2014that farming is the backbone of our economy, for the last 2\u00BD years, we haven\u2019t been hearing that. Look, it certainly underpins our economy, and I would be the first one to accept that there are some changes needed in agriculture. But what we have to remember when we\u2019re doing Budgets, whether they be economic budgets or environmental budgets, is that what we do in this country, as a great little place down the end of the world, is not going to have massive, massive effects on climate change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo we really need to think about our Budget, going forward, economically as a country, think about some of our natural resources, think about the fact that our farmers in New Zealand are actually world leaders when it comes to issues of climate change, and think about how we economically use our intellectual property to influence the rest of the world. Last night, we were here debating the changes to the climate change bill. Several trees had been cut down to produce the bill in the first instance. It\u2019s about a ream of paper, and then the Supplementary Order Papers are almost another ream of paper. I question this Government on how that is going to make any difference to climate change, because it\u2019s going to create a whole lot more administration, and what we need is tools to drive things forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo I would not disagree\u2014in this document, page 35\u2014that \u201CNow is the time to use our strong fiscal position to respond to COVID-19\u201D. I would acknowledge the Minister of Finance, Grant Robertson, in acknowledging both Bill English and Michael Cullen for the work that they\u2019ve done in the past. I always believe in giving credit where credit is due. It is time to use our strong fiscal position, but the way we respond to this is going to make a big difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had lots of discussions in this House about the wage subsidies. Now, the wage subsidies have been a big help for businesses, and no one\u2019s actually going to deny that. But there seems to be some denial on the Government side of the House about the difficult position that many, many, many businesses still find themselves in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe wage subsidy has been helpful. We hear time and time again that, yes, under level 2, businesses are open. There is a huge difference between opening the door and running a profitable business. If we think about some of our restaurants, certainly, in level 3, it was really difficult watching those people with their little table out the door, waiting for customers to come and get takeaways. You don\u2019t go to a fine restaurant to get takeaways. It was very difficult. Even now, there are some restaurants, under the guise of the rules that we operate in level 2, that are allowing people to come for dinner for an hour, because they need to get that turnover in that business to make the money. You cannot expect people to go and get nine friends, as it was at that stage because the limit was 10, to go out with a group and say \u201CWe\u2019re going out for an hour.\u201D, because the reality is those sorts of things don\u2019t happen. So we really do need to think about the dynamics of what we would call being open for business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe time frame and the path for meeting our long-term objectives as we recover is on page 39 of the document. The time frame has been something that we\u2019ve been arguing about quite a bit as to when we change levels, and the path is the other one. It appears that as a Government and as a country, we\u2019ve been quite picky and choosy about the path and about the people that we allow into this country. Yes, I don\u2019t have any objection that movie-making has helped this country a long way down the economic path, but when we start picking and choosing between different industries\u2014and we\u2019ve heard Nick Smith\u2019s objections to blocking the boat out of his local area, which is, basically, taking $3.5 million out of his community when the boat\u2019s coming from a country where there is no COVID. It\u2019s not only about the time frames and the levels; it\u2019s about how we make the decisions on who we let in and who we let out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI just want to touch a little bit now on some of the expenditure in agriculture. It\u2019s very good to see the continuation of expenditure on the Mycoplasma bovis eradication programme. It was pretty rough at the beginning, probably a bit like COVID\u2019s being rough on a lot of people, but I do see some forward planning has been going on with the Ministry for Primary Industries for the last year or so, which has actually made the process easier, particularly relating to the wellbeing of farmers who are going through that dreaded process. So I commend them for the human factor that came into that process much later in the piece. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe other part of that process was the National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT) scheme, and it\u2019s good to see there\u2019s funding going into maintaining compliance for that. NAIT let us down at the time when it came to the Mycoplasma bovis outbreak. It was often referred back to farmers not doing what they were supposed to do, and in some situations, I don\u2019t doubt that that was the case. However, the NAIT system was not operating as it should be, so it\u2019s good to see some money going into that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really thrilled to see more money going into the Global Research Alliance on Agricultural Greenhouse Gases, because when we talk about the emissions trading scheme and we talk about taxes, that\u2019s not going to fix our problem. The global research alliance and the science is going to fix our problem by building up the tools. People just want to know: \u201CWhere am I now, where do I need to get to, and what tools have you got to help me?\u201D It\u2019s no good taxing things that we don\u2019t have answers for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m really, really thrilled to see that happening and also thrilled to see some increase in capability for the post-entry quarantine and the laboratory services for new horticulture markets, because we\u2019ve had some difficulties there in the last year or so. Lawrence Yule is very aware of some of the stock for horticulture that\u2019s been through a tough time as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo thank you, Mr Speaker. That\u2019s a very quick summary of my view of the Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022d516c4c574d14a55a3251d6e64601f25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d516c4c574d14a55a3251d6e64601f25\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green):\u003C/span\u003E E Te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e Te Whare. I firstly just want to start my contribution on behalf of the Green Party today, in this split call, addressing some of the concerns raised by Barbara Kuriger, the speaker just before me, being primarily those around climate change. She was simultaneously saying that what we do won\u2019t change anything, but then also saying that we\u2019re world leaders. I just really want people to inspect that, because you can\u2019t have it both ways. If we want to be world leaders here, if we want to inspire others to come up to our standards, we have to keep leading the world, and we don\u2019t get there by falling behind the mark. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWith regard to the context of this Budget, as many before me have already spoken to, the context has entirely shifted to where we were months ago. A lot of people right now are talking about future generations, and they are harking back to the situation that we saw ourselves in as a country and, indeed, as a world and a global economy in the 1930s, centring around the Great Depression. There, it\u2019s interesting to investigate that we saw a similar mobilisation of governmental, political, and parliamentary forces to rise to the challenge that was being faced, particularly with the creation of what was arguably the world\u2019s first safety net, recognising a manifestation of the social contract that all of us who live in this country will look after others when hard times come upon them. Unfortunately, it is the case that over the past few decades subsequent to that introduction, it has been dismantled by Governments following it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EHowever, what has been highlighted in the context of COVID-19 is what is possible and what can be achieved, particularly those things that we have been told for so long are impossible, such as flexible working for those with disabilities or those who are sole parents, such as housing of the homeless, and such as the raising of core benefits. All of these things that we were told were impossible happened literally almost overnight, and what that has done is expose that these issues have always been solely an issue of political willpower. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo on the issue of the economy, as it\u2019s been bandied about, I really want to begin to unpack that, because, in the words of the environmentalist Paul Hawken\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CWe have an economy that steals from the future, sells it in the present, and calls it GDP.\u201D There are a lot of speakers throughout this debate who have invoked future generations and who have invoked the need for us to sacrifice as we move into the next few years to pay back the debt that is coming down the pipeline. I really, again, think that that is deserving of going under the microscope, because the economy isn\u2019t a sentient being; it is, in fact, the rules and the organisation that we place on all of us and the environment that we live in. The economy doesn\u2019t suffer; we do. What that demonstrates is the importance of the social contract, and the importance of different regulatory and legislative machinery that we are able to mobilise as a Government, as a Parliament, as leaders in this country, to change the way that things like inequality are presently playing out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EOn the point around future generations, I really just want to call across the House, across both the Government and the Opposition benches, and ask for people to really think about the kind of rhetoric that they are invoking here, because we are simultaneously hearing people ask about future generations and the debt that will befall them. But if we\u2019re really concerned about future generations, perhaps we should stop trying to speak on behalf of them or for them, and speak to them about what matters, because when you speak directly to our tamariki and to our rangatahi, what you will hear is quite different to the issues that are regularly bandied about in this ivory tower. In fact, it is things like climate action, which I am appalled to hear certain members now asking to delay so that we can supposedly service this economy, which again, we have unpacked, is mythology. So too, we would be caring about students. We would be removing all barriers. Notably, this Budget does remove those barriers for certain trade training, but we have the opportunity to go further. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u002245f9d1317fec45a18783fd2b1377dc33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245f9d1317fec45a18783fd2b1377dc33\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou, kia ora. I think the most important question members should ask themselves in the Budget Debate is: how does it help regular, real people in New Zealand? Now, it was Sir Geoffrey Palmer who once said about being a member of Parliament that it\u2019s the best education you can have into your country. Now, I don\u2019t think he meant about sitting in this Chamber. I think what he meant was actually getting out and talking to people in their factories, their workplaces, and their offices, and for me, the greatest privilege of my decade here is literally being invited into people\u2019s homes and getting to have those conversations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EFor years, when I\u2019ve gone into people\u2019s homes, I\u2019ve been talking about the Green Party\u2019s work to insulate them, to set better rental standards, and to have better-quality housing, and it would shock you what I\u2019ve seen in Kiwi\u2019s houses. I\u2019ve seen black mould on the roof as if it was painted on with black paint. I\u2019ve seen houses with holes in the walls. I\u2019ve seen houses with plants and mushrooms growing out of the walls. I\u2019ve seen in Dunedin\u2014where I got to judge the worst rental flat competition as part of the city council\u2019s campaign to clean up their rental standards\u2014super unsafe staircases almost falling over. I\u2019ve seen window panes that you can literally peel the wood like it was a Cadbury Flake because it was so damp and rotten. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why, when I\u2019m thinking about real people, I\u2019m so proud of this Budget, because we\u2019re making a huge difference for real families\u2019 lives. Now, we\u2019ve seen the more than $1 billion for more than 11,000 jobs in nature, but it\u2019s the 9,000 extra homes which are going to be insulated as a result of this Budget that I\u2019m incredibly proud of because it\u2019s those homes that are going to make a difference. Now, the Government\u2019s come in and made sure that it can fund 90 percent of the cost of insulation. In some regions, that\u2019s up to the total cost that\u2019s covered. There\u2019s new grants of $2,500 for clean-heating devices, including efficient woodburners and heat pumps. That\u2019s thousands and thousands and thousands of Kiwi families that are going to be warmer, drier, and healthier as a result, and then their power bill is going to be less too because we\u2019ve doubled the winter energy payment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EBut we know we have to go further and faster, because 9,000 is great, but there are still 600,000 substandard homes in New Zealand that are making our kids sick and, even worse, that are making them miss school and, even worse, that are seeing them in hospital. Tragically, we are seeing Kiwis die at a rate greater than the road toll because of their houses. Our houses are more dangerous than the road toll. So that\u2019s why we need to set a goal to insulate every single house in New Zealand to make sure it\u2019s of a warm, dry, healthy standard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe need to bulk up the building code, because, while London and Christchurch have similar heating demands, in the UK it\u2019s two times the wall insulation standards and five times the underfloor standards that we have in New Zealand. We need smart, sustainable buildings and offices. So while we\u2019ve admirably got through one health crisis, we also need to make sure we flatten the emissions curve to tackle the much, much deadlier looming climate crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EAs Christiana Figueres from the UN pointed out this week, the investments we make as part of this Budget in the COVID response fund are going to lock in the emissions for the decades to come. All those decisions and those investments could give us the tools to reduce our emissions and to build a prosperous, low-carbon economy to help Kiwi families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ESo while we\u2019re warming up homes with insulation on the roof, let\u2019s also make sure we\u2019re putting a solar panel on it as well. Let\u2019s make sure we\u2019re putting solar panels and batteries in every single State house and running it as a clean, virtual network. Let\u2019s stop burning fossil fuels for electricity and for milk dehydration. Let\u2019s save people money by replacing their old, inefficient light bulbs with new, free efficient LED light bulbs. Let\u2019s invest in energy-efficient advisers and good, smart technology. Let\u2019s strengthen our grid so we can get to 100 percent renewable electricity. Let\u2019s support community groups who want to do it themselves and produce their own clean, cheap wind and solar power. To reach our transport and electricity goals and to get to our Paris carbon goals, we need to electrify transport as an industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis is the great challenge facing us as a country. If we\u2019re going to meet those goals, we may have to double our electricity production in the next decade. Our great challenge is we have to do what\u2019s taken us 100 years to get to this point in only 10 years and do it cleaner and cheaper than ever before. This is our mission. This is our generation\u2019s great movement, our great moment. With the economic stimulus, it\u2019s how we can grow those clean, sustainable jobs and grow a richer, more prosperous economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EMeanwhile, on the other side of the benches, we see a party which is looking to the past. It wants to bring back oil and gas exploration. It wants to see more mining. It wants to see more cars, cows, and coal. That\u2019s a recipe for disaster, that\u2019s a recipe for poverty, and that\u2019s a recipe for death. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is pushing forward the ideas to take us further and faster to build on the great work that we\u2019ve delivered in Government and to make sure that we\u2019re building that low-carbon, prosperous economy for the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00224ae8e12aab5849baa55b071f267329df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ae8e12aab5849baa55b071f267329df\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I actually quite enjoyed that contribution by that member. We wouldn\u2019t agree on a lot of it, actually, but it\u2019s a calm rationality. It\u2019s a different form of opinions, but I actually really respect Gareth Hughes, and, in sad anticipation, he will actually be missed in the House. I know this was not a valedictory, but it also just shows, I think, the best of the House in these debates, which is that, actually, all parties can bring, if you will, a particular philosophy and perspective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a refreshing change from earlier Green contributions, which, unfortunately\u2014particularly around this situation of COVID\u2014give truth to the adage \u201CNever let a good crisis go to waste.\u201D The idea that because of COVID, we can say \u201CLook at all these amazing things we did.\u201D\u2014that that somehow is a platform for going forward. So while it\u2019s been good that we\u2019re able to put all the homeless together\u2014we heard from an earlier Greens speaker that it\u2019s just amazing what powers a Government can have and use to bring about a particular agenda of parties, and that\u2019s just not particularly helpful in a democracy. But, as I say, the Green Party and others very much like a crisis to allow them to push through their particular agendas, and we\u2019re seeing that, sadly, around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also seen in the whole COVID situation at the moment a Government that I think, by and large, has done a good job, but I\u2019d be remiss in this Budget debate\u2014it has pumped billions and billions of New Zealand\u2019s taxpayer dollars and, in fact, borrowed enormous amounts from overseas. The Government has made some mistakes\u2014and I think, as the MP for T\u0101maki, I need to acknowledge those\u2014from, I believe, a lockdown that came not hard and fast, as we\u2019re often told, but came too late. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s important, as the spokesperson for customs, to also note that we had a situation where the border, on 3 February, was closed to China, but over 38,000 people from China\u2014or travelling from China. They were not necessarily from China. They came here\u201438,000 people\u2014and were only, effectively, giving a pinkie promise to stay self-isolated. It doesn\u2019t make any sense. I think it\u2019s a problem, and a number of constituents have raised with me that we needed to have closed the border sooner in order to manage things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EWe have seen, since, of course, New Zealand has locked down. We have been able to contain and manage the virus. The problem is, however\u2014and I\u2019ve certainly seen it as I go around my electorate\u2014the community has suffered. It has suffered. It understands why we\u2019ve had to lock down, but week after week has wrought enormous damage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI fear that whatever this Government is trying to do, it is not going to be enough, not because of the amounts of money\u2014they are scary amounts of money; eye-watering amounts of money\u2014and the fact that it will take generations to pay off. The problem is that it\u2019s not well structured or focused, and we only need to think of the $50 million package the Government announced\u2014a slush fund in my mind\u2014because there is no clarity around how it\u2019s being spent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThere are two, if you will, broad examples coming out of my electorate where people are definitely struggling. Certainly, in businesses, and that will be no surprise to anyone in this House. Businesses are struggling. You cannot stop an economy for almost nine weeks and not expect businesses to be incredibly damaged, and simply giving them cheap debt is not a solution. The wage subsidy has been, I would say, excellent for the workers, but that does not directly assist the business. Put relatively simply but, I would suggest, accurately, it\u2019s all well and good to pay someone a wage subsidy, but you want them to have a job at the end, and I don\u2019t think the Government has focused on that sufficiently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ECertainly around my electorate, when I think of Tamaki Drive, it\u2019s driven a lot by hospitality. Those cafes and restaurants continue to struggle with what have, basically, become rather arbitrary rules. It\u2019s quite possible, it turns out, for thousands of people to gather in central Auckland and protest together\u2014for good reason\u2014but, up to a few days ago, you couldn\u2019t have more than 10 people sitting together properly in a restaurant. It\u2019s all become rather arbitrary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ENeed I point out as well the outright discrimination by the Government against people of faith and religion. It\u2019s the fact that, again, you could protest, you could play sport, and you could go to strip clubs and restaurants, but you couldn\u2019t actually gather for your bar mitzvah or the mosque or churches. It\u2019s been absolutely ludicrous, and I feel we\u2019re continuing in this line, in some ways, to be puppets pulled by strings around all these continued levels and discussions and rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EYou can\u2019t walk down the street without having to see signs about kindness and calmness. There are signs on the street telling me to keep left; in fact, even in this building, there are signs on every stairwell telling me how to walk up some stairs. We\u2019re beginning to live in some bizarre dystopian little world, and it needs to stop. It is simply a form of propaganda, and it\u2019s just completely unnecessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been calling for a while for us to return to normal on the fundamental principle that New Zealanders are smart, intelligent people. We know how to manage our lives and we\u2019ve had enough of the Government constantly telling us how to do this. As I said at the start, the left, in particular, love a crisis because it allows them to justify getting into every aspect of our lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESpeaking of getting into our lives, I want to touch very quickly on social housing. The Government\u2019s made enormous promises. They\u2019ve told us today, in fact, in a select committee that they are absolutely confident that they will build 3,200 new houses in the next year\u2014just State houses. None of them are going to bought or leased. These are completely totally new builds. I just want to clarify and put that on the record today, because I am telling you now that in about nine or 12 months, we will be going to the Minister of Housing and wanting to see very clearly that 3,200 new homes are going to be built. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAs I was pointing out, we already have seen the huge failure that is KiwiBuild, but also we know the Government promised in the last year to build 1,600 new houses and it failed. The Government was only able to build 1,400. Now, I don\u2019t want to take away from it. That\u2019s good\u20141,400 is good in itself\u2014but that\u2019s not the 1,600, and now the Government\u2019s doubled its target. So it\u2019s thrown a lot of money around and an incredible amount of rhetoric, but can it deliver? I\u2019m going to make my own little statement here: no, they won\u2019t. They won\u2019t deliver, and it\u2019ll be our role to keep them on track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI also want to jump back into my electorate\u2014and I\u2019m bouncing around here a bit\u2014around our businesses, particularly around the enormous cuts which the Auckland Council has announced in my area. First and foremost, it\u2019s putting ratepayers in a terrible position of choosing between rate increases or having their projects cut. That\u2019s actually quite an unfair choice. It\u2019s a form of blackmail, if you will. But, really importantly\u2014and it\u2019s my pitch, if I would, to the Government\u2014they have talked about shovel-ready projects. I really encourage Government to announce those quickly and/or provide the billions of dollars promised to the council. A number of the private businesses who help our infrastructure\u2014it doesn\u2019t matter if it\u2019s the water to the roads\u2014need certainty. They need certainty. We cannot have what is a boom and bust dynamic, with that being that councils cut the services, the private contractors are cut, workers are lost, and then, let\u2019s say, in three months\u2019 time, the money pops up and those businesses are trying to re-form. It\u2019s not going to work. So I encourage Government there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, in my final thoughts, actually, I want to turn more into the foreign affairs space and to customs, another set of portfolios or interests. In the customs space, I\u2019m disappointed to see that the Budget had, effectively, no new money\u2014no new money. The singular primary vector of coronavirus is through our border. One would think the Government might have just put a few more dollars into that space to allow the Customs Service to do the excellent job that they already do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EMy last point\u2019s around foreign affairs. We have seen more money there, but I would encourage the Government to speak more loudly, particularly about what\u2019s happening in Hong Kong. Today, in something that\u2019s never happened before, myself and three other foreign affairs chairs from around the world have signed a joint letter to the United Nations and to our respective Prime Ministers. So that\u2019s Tom Tugendhat from the United Kingdom, David Fawcett from Australia, Michael Levitt from Canada, and myself. It\u2019s a joint letter to the UN Secretary-General, calling on the UN to put in a special envoy to Hong Kong. What is happening there under the auspices of the Chinese Communist Party is an affront to democratic principles, and our countries must stand up strongly against that. We have also\u2014all four of us\u2014written to our respective Prime Ministers, asking that they add their voices with a special session of the United Nations to call for that envoy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI implore the Government, the Prime Minister, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs to speak up clearly. If democracy matters, it matters not just in New Zealand but around the world, and I for one will continue, in my role as a member of Parliament, to speak up for the importance of freedoms and rights around the world. Again, I just want to put on record that I am very proud\u2014in a sense, this is the first time that I know that this has happened\u2014that four chairs of foreign affairs committees have united together and spoken with one voice. On that, I think I might end my contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb441d89cf9d425aa10a5961a2e99b34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb441d89cf9d425aa10a5961a2e99b34\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Before I get to the substance of what I\u2019m going to talk about, I\u2019d just like to address some of the discussion points that Simon O\u2019Connor, the member who just took his seat, raised: 92 percent of the country agree with the approach that the Government has taken to dealing with COVID, so he\u2019s obviously in the 8 percent that disagree, and he speaks about the Government\u2019s response to COVID-19 with a degree of sadness or concern. It\u2019s almost like he was wanting our approach to be less effective than it was and that more people would get it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe know from projections that we were looking down the barrel of maybe 3,000 deaths in New Zealand if we didn\u2019t go hard and we didn\u2019t go fast\u2014as we did\u2014and countries around the world are only congratulating New Zealand on the approach we have taken. We\u2019ve now had 12 days in a row without any new cases of COVID-19, and we need to be patting ourselves on the back and saying thank you to the team of 5 million people who have contributed to that. But what we\u2019re hearing from the member who\u2019s just spoken is that he would have preferred that we relaxed our approach and, potentially, risked us going back up the alert levels, which, of course, is the worst thing that could possibly happen to New Zealand and the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ESo we have taken steps to make sure that we have protected New Zealand and New Zealanders. Our best economic approach was our strong health approach, and I think that the National Party just need to tone down their opposition to the way that we\u2019ve approached this, because it has had the best impact economically for New Zealand as well as health-wise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard all the stories about those people who lost loved ones during the lockdowns and how difficult it was for them to mourn and grieve, not being able to attend their funerals. Now, just imagine if there had been those 3,000 COVID-19 deaths, and there would be 3,000 more wh\u0101nau, 3,000 more families, potentially, who could be affected by that and could be grieving by themselves. My cousin, in fact, in the early days of lockdown, at level 4, lost his mother. Because he\u2019s a grave digger at our marae, he was one that had to dig her grave, and just a handful of them buried our auntie. It sounds like members opposite are almost disappointed that the situation wasn\u2019t worse, but I hope that\u2019s not the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThis Budget delivered $900 million for M\u0101ori. Now, I have to admit that in the M\u0101ori caucus, while we\u2019re happy that $900 million is a lot of money, we\u2019re disappointed we couldn\u2019t\u2014for the first time\u2014get to the billion-dollar mark for M\u0101oridom. It sends a signal to M\u0101ori that this Government value M\u0101ori and we value the relationship we have, and it shows our commitment to continuing to work with M\u0101ori to make our country better for everyone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ENow, gone are the days of previous Budgets under the previous Government, where the National Government would under-invest in M\u0101ori. I recall in one of the last Budgets that they put out that there was some scheme where they would have a van driving around the Waiariki electorate. The member for Waiariki at the time was a member of the confidence and supply partners to the previous Government. It was to drive around the Waiariki dispensing\u2014I don\u2019t know; I\u2019m not quite sure what it was meant to dispense\u2014Disprins, Panadols. It was meant to be there as a health response for M\u0101ori health. It would have been ineffective and it didn\u2019t get off the ground, but that is an example of what the previous Government did. They just paid and walked away\u2014pay M\u0101ori, walk away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ENow, one of the things that I\u2019m most proud of is the $200 million we got for the k\u014Dhanga reo, but it\u2019s actually not the $200 million that I\u2019m most proud about; it\u2019s the relationship that we have created between the k\u014Dhanga reo and the Crown after a decade of neglect. Now, under the previous Government, the k\u014Dhanga reo didn\u2019t get a bean, they didn\u2019t get an audience with Ministers\u2014they were left out in the cold\u2014and, as a result, Te Reo M\u0101ori education for our youngest babies was absolutely neglected. The first thing when I spoke to Te K\u014Dhanga Reo National Trust when I became the Associate Minister, was I sat down and said that I am committed to k\u014Dhanga reo. I grew up in a monolingual home, not being able to speak Te Reo M\u0101ori, and I still remember the shame of going on to our marae and not understanding what was going on, and I don\u2019t want any other M\u0101ori child to grow up in that same situation that I grew up in. So I expressed then my commitment to work with the k\u014Dhanga reo to make sure that all M\u0101ori children, if they wish, can have the opportunity to grow up speaking Te Reo M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe had to work hard, first of all, on just the relationship. I said to them that when we work on the relationship, then we can start talking about their aspirations for the next 30 or 40 years and we can put those aspirations into a plan, and we can start to address those aspirations over time. Last year, in last year\u2019s Budget, we got them $32 million and we said that that\u2019s a start. This year, we managed to get them $200 million. Now, $232 million in two years is still just the start. We are still committed to that relationship with k\u014Dhanga reo and to M\u0101ori education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ENow, there was another $200 million that went towards M\u0101ori education as well, and that was going towards other parts of the education system. One of them was $50 million going towards working with wh\u0101nau. Now, for years and years, we\u2019ve invested in the principals and schools and the boards of trustees and teachers with professional development, but there is one component of the education system that\u2019s been consistently neglected, and that\u2019s the relationship between wh\u0101nau and the education system. So we\u2019ve put $50 million in there to help M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau to engage with the education system and to be demanding consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ETe Ahu o te Reo is our programme. We started four pilots last year, and those pilots were to help teachers to integrate Te Reo M\u0101ori throughout their curriculum. Now, I went to the p\u014Dwhiri for one of the cohorts up in \u014Ctaki, and when I got there I saw a whole heap of really shy people participating in this p\u014Dwhiri quite to the side, very quietly, and I thought, \u201COh my gosh, what\u2019s going to happen here? Is this going to be a success?\u201D, because these people, very few of them who were M\u0101ori, seemed to be lost. Roll forward two or three months later, when they graduated and I was waiting outside, I could hear this singing coming from inside the hall where we had the graduation. I said to the organiser when he came out to greet me, \u201CWhich group did you bring in for the p\u014Dwhiri?\u201D He said, \u201CNo, that\u2019s not a kapa haka group. That is the cohort of people, of teachers and educators, who participated and who turned up two or three months earlier at that p\u014Dwhiri.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ESuch was the success of that professional development that teachers who previously had had very little, if any, exposure to Te Reo M\u0101ori were engaging with me in Te Reo M\u0101ori after the p\u014Dwhiri. It was quite an astounding success. Like I said, very few were M\u0101ori\u201470 percent were non-M\u0101ori. Such is the success, now we\u2019re looking to expand Te Ahu o te Reo M\u0101ori so that more and more teachers will be able to engage in and integrate Te Reo M\u0101ori into their classrooms by 2025, so that all M\u0101ori students, regardless of whether they\u2019re in mainstream or are bilingual, will be able to engage with their culture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also launched Te Kawa Matakura this year. We launched it up in Tai Tokerau at Waitangi during the Waitangi week. Te Kawa Matakura is a leadership programme for M\u0101ori. What it does is it is brings in the old-time learning that schools don\u2019t teach. It is growing our M\u0101ori leadership, and they leave that programme with a degree. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also investing $14.6 million to increase Te Reo M\u0101ori curriculum resources. That\u2019s because there\u2019s been a dearth ever since I was teaching. When I was a principal, I always said that we needed Te Reo M\u0101ori resources to support the curriculum and the programme, and it\u2019s great to go from being a teacher and a principal saying, \u201CI wish we could be able to do these things.\u201D to now being the Associate Minister and actually making these things happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EBut what\u2019s great\u2014just to start to wind up\u2014is that the $900 million, again, is just the start. We\u2019ll have many more Budgets in the coming years to grow on that and build on that so that our people know that we\u2019ve got all these M\u0101ori Ministers and we\u2019ve got a ton of M\u0101ori MPs who will become Ministers in their time, who are going to continue to fight the good fight for our M\u0101ori people. As I said, gone are the days when it\u2019s acceptable for National Governments to just pay and walk away from M\u0101ori. Those days are gone. Those Governments are gone, and good riddance to them. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022d90aea977dbe4ca7ac268688fd399996\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d90aea977dbe4ca7ac268688fd399996\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora e Te Mana Whakaw\u0101. Let me assure the Hon Kelvin Davis, the Minister who has just resumed his seat, that the National Party has never walked away from M\u0101ori. In fact, M\u0101ori have achieved more of real substance under National Governments than they have under Governments led by his party over decades in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThis has been a year like no other in our lifetime. Equally, Budget 2020 was a Budget like no other that any of us can remember. I do actually feel some sympathy for the Minister of Finance and his officials, because whatever work had been done up to the beginning of March will largely have gone out the window, given the events that followed in the weeks immediately afterwards. So the document that was presented here in this House on 14 May was really more of a fiscal update than a detailed Budget. Cobbled together in a matter of weeks and with circumstances changing daily, it is understandable that it was light on detail and left so many questions unanswered. But the Government now needs to show much greater understanding of what this country needs in order for us to rebuild and to save shattered livelihoods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThis, of course, was our first COVID Budget, and every foreseeable Budget in the years ahead will have COVID recovery as its dominant theme. So I want to acknowledge again those whose lives have been upended by COVID, because, as I mentioned, their livelihoods are now at risk as jobs are being lost, as businesses are going under, as export markets have been put at risk, as our tourism sector has taken such a hit, and so it goes on. That has to be the focus of any Budget. Sadly, from the current Government, we have not been hearing enough about investing in initiatives that will turn those very serious challenges around. They must be the focus of all future Budgets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EMost of those who died of or, in some cases, with COVID in New Zealand were older citizens, and so in my capacity as National\u2019s spokesperson for seniors, I\u2019d like to send my aroha and my condolences to their grieving families. I also want to acknowledge and thank the New Zealand Aged Care Association and all the wonderful staff who work in the many retirement villages, care facilities, and similar institutions around the country looking after so many of our senior citizens. I know that at least one of those very special New Zealanders who they look after is watching this afternoon. She is a constituent of the member for T\u0101maki and I send her my love. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d87d34cea7642d394fef61cf821ece2\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s her favourite MP? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbe4fb6dc6f242b59958d1d7b62a5cf6\u0022\u003EHon TIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! Her favourite MP is probably Mr O\u2019Connor; I\u2019d like to think that her son might come in a close second. But thank you, Mr O\u2019Connor, for asking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EMr O\u2019Connor was one of several National colleagues who have made very fine speeches in this House this afternoon. Their analysis of the Budget has been thoughtful and, especially, their understanding of the economic and social challenges that our country now faces has shown that the National Party is a team match-fit, full of talent, and ready to govern, and we look forward to having the opportunity to present our alternative vision to the country in just a few weeks from now, as we face the general election on 19 September. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWe will be highlighting how disappointing this Budget was in failing to provide the leadership and a clear outline of our choices and what our priorities should be in a post-COVID world. Never has the work of our farmers and our other primary producers been more important, yet, currently, they have a naive Government that continues to believe they should be put at a competitive disadvantage with less efficient producers of the healthy food the world so desperately needs and which New Zealand produces so well. We must not kneecap our farmers and our primary productive sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe current Government, or Ministers within it, have supposedly set aside for themselves $20 billion for unspecified purposes, so that amounts to unprecedented fiscal irresponsibility. No one doubts that money must be spent, and a lot of it, but it\u2019s money we don\u2019t have. So it will need to be repaid for decades by our children and their children, and I do not want to saddle my descendants or the descendants of any other New Zealanders with a bill that is literally going to make life miserable for so many of them. So the money that the Government is setting aside, and a future Government will also set aside, must be spent wisely and in ways that will stimulate jobs growth, promote our economic recovery, and save livelihoods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes asked in his contribution\u2014which was one of the better ones from the other side\u2014about half an hour ago, how does the Budget help people. Of course it\u2019s a fair question, because Budgets are always about people. That\u2019s what our primary focus should be, as any politician. But, unfortunately, it\u2019s a question that people are still asking now, three weeks after the Budget was delivered. I said that Governments must spend taxpayers\u2019 money responsibly, and not say that they\u2019ll put aside $20 billion that we don\u2019t have and then think later about what they will do with it every time they need to scratch a pre-election itch. Make no mistake, it\u2019s all about buying votes. That is appalling pork-barrel politics of the type we have seen far too often in the last three years, particularly with the shameful $3 billion slush fund, which looked dreadful at the time and yet now is small beer by comparison with what they\u2019re doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWell, we\u2019re not playing Monopoly\u2014this is not a game. People\u2019s livelihoods are at risk. Hundreds of thousands of them are losing their jobs this year\u201437,500 of them lost their jobs in April alone\u2014and they need a Government that backs them to get back into work as soon as possible. We must move into alert level 1 right now, because every day that we fail to do that, more jobs are being lost, more businesses are at risk, and more people are suffering, and, frankly, there is no longer sufficient reason to justify that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why Nationals\u2019 JobStart policy that was announced by our new leader, Todd Muller\u2014who will be a fine Prime Minister of this country\u2014was the right approach. It has the potential to assist many businesses to have the confidence to invest in staff and start rebuilding. It\u2019s why we in the National Party have offered to work with the Government to share our policy, to cooperate with them, and to implement it as soon as possible\u2014not to wait until we have an opportunity to do so after the election\u2014and it\u2019s indicative of more positive initiatives that our party will be introducing in the weeks and months ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWell, I want to make it very clear in the little time that I\u2019ve got remaining that because Budgets are about people, we will continue to work as constructively as we can with other parties. We are all in this together\u2014we said that when we went into the lockdown\u2014and we\u2019re all in it now. But they must ensure that they are willing to respond appropriately to initiatives, and not give the trite, facile answers that we had from the Prime Minister when asked questions about her approach to dealing with the National Party on the JobStart programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ECould I, in just the short time remaining, acknowledge the recipients of the Queen\u2019s Birthday honours, because they\u2019re people who have often contributed hugely to economic growth in our country. I want to acknowledge in particular the founder of Hamilton Zoo, founded just over 50 years ago. Murray Powell, who was also a pioneer in the deer industry of this country and who has been one of the great conservators of wildlife, not only launched Hamilton\u2019s fine zoo, which is one of the best in the Southern Hemisphere, but, in 1976, generously gifted it to the nation. Dr\u2014now Dame\u2014Karen Poutasi, a very distinguished public servant, is now doing a wonderful job as the commissioner for the Waikato District Health Board. I congratulate Murray and Dame Karen on their awards\u2014both well deserved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ECould I finally pay tribute to Ismail Gamadid, who was the former president of the Waikato Muslim Association and the Waikato Refugee Forum. Sadly, he died of COVID in Mogadishu about 10 days ago. He had returned there, after 20 years of living in Hamilton, to take up a ministerial post in his native State. He did a fine job in our area of promoting race relations and helping new settlers in our region to settle in. I was proud\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00222d2deb1d21384701bc4003a8a6fa88fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d2deb1d21384701bc4003a8a6fa88fa\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2e23679536545a5a62dc9ae13325848\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2e23679536545a5a62dc9ae13325848\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That this debate be now adjourned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002260b6910105754bc2851b9e9737f65b5e\u0022\u003EClimate Change Response (Emissions Trading Reform) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002274b778fcecbd47529a6b09972042ae7a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca598e6dee9747028ced9c1bba804eee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca598e6dee9747028ced9c1bba804eee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I remind members that the House has agreed to trial the removal of the four-call limit in the committee stage. I therefore encourage you to keep your contributions focused\u2014five minutes is not a target\u2014and relevant to promote good interaction with the Minister in the chair. We have the ability, then, to take short calls and have a series of questions and answers between members and the Minister. You can be confident that you will get a number of short calls. Can I just add also that if the member on their feet yields to the Minister, the member can be assured they will get the next call. Can I suggest the Minister can come closer to the officials, if that would be easier? I think it would be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022729f0af15d524190807ad0ee1dcda780\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022729f0af15d524190807ad0ee1dcda780\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the committee that the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Reform) Amendment Bill and the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission Bill be taken as one debate respectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a11048384a8748af8cef407b2a479ef6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a11048384a8748af8cef407b2a479ef6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. It shall be so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2d3b14ad4eb4f9bb3bf15a745f4530b\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, Schedules 2 to 7, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002260906757ee98458f8f8d67025d40ffbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260906757ee98458f8f8d67025d40ffbc\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I yield to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af7db1fe67994757ae65ddbb98f4af66\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one debate, with the questions to be put separately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b26f974308b34fca8f0ad2aecd55422a\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve already done that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f38fcfc70e894aacb44e73d3fa7df58c\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I beg your pardon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d670200bb7e74c06afe9cc3ea648b9d4\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Chair, I was yielding to the Minister. We\u2019ve got through the procedural stuff and we\u2019re OK to go? OK. Good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ELook, thank you, Mr Chair. This is a complicated, multifaceted, detailed piece of legislation. The bill itself\u2014the document that\u2019s sitting on the Table\u2014runs to in excess of 400 pages, and so as the debate on the specific clauses and sections of the bill pursues this afternoon, I and my colleagues will want to ask the Minister a number of questions about the practical application of this piece of legislation. And, in so doing, we are very cognisant on this side that, actually, this is the \u201Cdoing\u201D piece of the climate change reform package that the Government has introduced. The first portion of the legislation was the zero carbon Act, and that, essentially, set up the framework for the establishment of a commission and the various targets around time frames and gases for reduction. But this emissions trading scheme piece of legislation is the one that actually provides the Minister of the day with the levers to have an impact on the day-to-day lives of New Zealanders through a pricing mechanism that is our emissions trading scheme. And, effectively, that\u2019s exactly what it is: it\u2019s a piece of statute that is designed to, effectively, reward good behaviour and, effectively, punish poor behaviour in terms of carbon emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo that then leads to a whole range of consequential impacts, not the least of which is the situation regarding the potential for much more exotic afforestation of the countryside than many people feel comfortable with. It\u2019s on that point, at this stage in the debate, that I\u2019m keen to know from the Minister in the chair: does he feel that this legislation actually poses a risk to primary production, particularly our export-led primary producers\u2014in that, if the carbon price is increased, as his announcement yesterday indicates that it will be, with the cap moving to $35 a tonne, will that actually provide an incentive for further afforestation and, potentially, create an environment where it\u2019s financially viable and profitable for carbon farmers to plant pine trees on land that, up till now, has been producing grass and the associated primary products that come from sheep and beef and cattle farming?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo we are, on this side, concerned that, in the legislation, there doesn\u2019t appear to be sufficient, robust ability to prevent mass afforestation, and that\u2019s been an issue that has been of huge concern to people in rural communities and provincial communities who are worried that, in order to have this situation take place, it will be their communities that are, effectively, depopulated and denuded in terms of effective, functioning communities. And so I am keen to have that answer from the Minister. Where is it in this piece of legislation? Where is the mechanism that prevents mass afforestation in a way that can give assurance to rural and provincial communities that land that is currently in pastoral, productive business won\u2019t be just planted in forests. We also want to have\u2014and I\u2019ll take another call later on, Mr Chair. I\u2019m interested to know about the Government\u2019s general view on offsets per se. But, in the meantime, just initially keen to have an indication from the Minister on the point I raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d44518c5f7bf4da6b88946455b4ddf1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d44518c5f7bf4da6b88946455b4ddf1f\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I thank the member Scott Simpson for his question. So in response to the member\u2019s question about where in the legislation is the mechanism to limit the risk of mass afforestation of productive farmland: this issue was canvased during the debates around the zero carbon bill last year. Of course, the zero carbon bill was an amendment to the Climate Change Response Act 2002, and this bill is also an amendment to the Climate Change Response Act 2002. The member\u2019s party actually won a concession during the zero carbon legislation, which is that it\u2019s a mandatory consideration for the Climate Change Commission when considering its emissions budgeting processes, and a similar obligation on the Minister and the Government when responding to the advice of the commission, to consider the implications of land-use change for communities and the wider economy. So that was actually built into that legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EAs the member has said, this legislation here is where the rubber hits the road\u2014metaphorically, obviously\u2014in that those considerations, at the high level that the commission has to consider in those 5-year emissions budgets, and then emissions trading scheme settings and so on, filter down to this piece of legislation. So that concern is built into the legislation already as a result of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EIn addition, I wanted to say that I understand the concerns of rural communities. There has been a 0.25 percent\u2014i.e., a quarter of 1 percent afforestation of land in beef and lamb territory, for example, at the moment. I just want to compare that to historical trends. So planting rates actually peaked in 1994\u2014and I see the Hon David Carter\u2019s in the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c907cc848a64cfcb4ee1d8073167c0e\u0022\u003ERt Hon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Wonderful year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1ac6c2bbdc84b6b802f7cf389d54f4f\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Chamber, and he may remember this\u2014when 98,000 hectares of land were planted in forests. Throughout the 1990s\u2014during which time, of course, there was a National Government through pretty much all of the 1990s\u2014a total of 554,000 hectares were planted. So if you compare that to today, there are only 13,300 hectares per year\u2014so considerably lower than the afforestation rates that took place during the 1990s. What we\u2019ve anticipated is that the forestry changes to this bill will result in an increase to 23,000 hectares a year, which is still, again, substantially lower than the afforestation rates during the 1990s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe other thing, of course, is that there has been a considerable deforestation rate. So after the planting in the 1990s, which was considerably higher than it is today, there was considerable deforestation rates. So there have been, for example, 70,000 hectares deforested just in the last 10 years alone, and deforestation has outstripped afforestation over the course of the last two decades. So, for example, in 2017 we had 6,000 new hectares of planting but 9,000 hectares of deforestation. So on a net basis, actually, the rates of deforestation have outstripped afforestation historically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI also just want to be mindful of the fact that, actually, forestry itself has an economic value. There are 35,000 people employed in the forestry and wood-processing sector. I understand that red meat employs about 66,500, so roughly twice as many people as are employed in forestry, but on five times as much land. So the forestry sector actually employs more people per hectare than the red meat sector. Forestry is a $7 billion export revenue earner. So you need to sort of balance out the set of considerations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI completely understand the concerns, and I also know that the lived experience doesn\u2019t necessarily match the data, right? So when someone, let\u2019s say for example, in Wairoa, gets up in the morning where there has been sheep out on the fields and then they kind of get up and they see huge amounts of forestry, it feels like the whole world has changed. It hasn\u2019t, but I can understand that their experience may be such.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9df7d7b80ed4905b9b73b9ba7ae6f25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9df7d7b80ed4905b9b73b9ba7ae6f25\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve got a couple of questions for the Minister for Climate Change, thank you very much, but before I do pose those questions, just to confirm that National views this Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Reform) Amendment Bill to be the \u201Cdoing\u201D part of the climate change response. National did support the zero carbon Act and, overall, supports where New Zealand is going, towards a lower carbon economy, but we do have several misgivings, and I\u2019ll use this contribution to open with a couple of questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI did have my two questions set, but the Minister just made a comment that I would like some further explanation on, and that was that forestry employs more people per hectare compared to the red meat sector. The reason I\u2019m interested in that is because that is not my perception, although I\u2019m sure the Minister has plenty of information to back up that claim, and I\u2019m looking forward to him expanding on why he says that\u2014perfectly prepared to accept his explanation. The only comment I would make around that assertion is that it may well be true that the forestry sector may well employ more people per hectare than the red meat sector, but where are those people? Where do those people live? There isn\u2019t a sawmill on every corner, and yet there is a farm on arguably ever corner of rural New Zealand, and so I am interested. Because the demographics of the spread of workers, the workforce, does matter in New Zealand, doesn\u2019t it? We\u2019re a country of several large cities, but many, many small rural communities, and those rural communities are supported by the red meat sector. That forms one of our objections to this bill: that the impact of this climate change bill at this time will mean that small communities will pay an economic penalty because of the timing of this bill in the post-COVID world. So I am interested in the Minister\u2019s greater response to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMy second question, again, is a matter of timing, and again it is in the context of our post-COVID environment, which, for the primary industries and for the red meat sector and, particularly, for the dairy sector, but also others, is that one of the requirements in this bill is that there will be mandatory reporting obligations on livestock emissions, and they will apply at farm level for emissions from the year beginning 1 January 2024. Now, 1 January 2024 is not that far off in fact. So 1 January 2024, if you work backwards from that, this bill will be enacted\u2014let\u2019s say this bill will become law in the latter half of 2020. The Parliament will pause for the general election. We will resume, potentially, in November; break for Christmas. Suddenly we\u2019re in 2021 and that leaves two years until the reporting obligations come into force at farm level. So, when I get to the real nub of my question\u2014it is given a runway, if you like, of around two years\u2014what is it going to take, what support is going to be given to the red meat sector to be able to comply with those obligations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ELook, I\u2019m sorry I came late to this bill; I only joined the committee in late February. Are all the regulations in place, or are they\u2014like a number of other measures in this bill\u2014still to be developed; in which case, do we have to shorten that runway even more? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u002229127d5c2bdf40e7b4369f5e617b6a42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229127d5c2bdf40e7b4369f5e617b6a42\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d just like to start by saying that the member has actually got quite a good handle on it, given the complexity of it and the time that she\u2019s had available. There are a number of questions in there. I can give a partial answer on the locations of forestry jobs. I\u2019ve got them for forestry, but I don\u2019t have them for the red meat sector, so it\u2019s not easy to compare. The 35,000 people employed in the forestry and wood-processing sector: there\u2019s 7,500 in tree planting, harvesting, and forest management; 2,500 in log transport and at ports; and 25,000 in wood-processing. So those wood-processing facilities, obviously, are located in rural towns around New Zealand. I\u2019ve got 66,400 people working in the red meat sector, and, obviously, some of those would be on farm in the same way that, you know, some of the forestry sectors are out on the land, but also a lot of them would be in processing also in rural communities and small towns. But I don\u2019t have the distribution within that 66,000, so I\u2019m sorry about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EIn answer to your second question, you had questions around the time lines for mandatory reporting at farm level. There are a few things I\u2019d like to say about that. First of all, that time frame was actually worked out with the agricultural sector itself. The member may remember that, in about September of last year, we entered into an accord with the agricultural sector called He Waka Eke Noa, which is a process which is essentially a partnership between the Government and the large sector representative bodies to develop a farm level measurement, management, and pricing system for farm level emissions of biogenic methane, in particular. So those time frames actually came as a result of that conversation. The sector has said, \u201CLook, it\u2019s challenging, but it\u2019s doable.\u201D And the feedback that we\u2019ve had from them is they\u2019re really keen to show New Zealand that they can do it because they are aware that they are the only sector that isn\u2019t in the emissions trading scheme at the moment\u2014and, of course, quite keen not to be part of the emissions trading scheme. The emissions trading scheme is really most effectively designed for industrial sectors, and the whole idea behind the He Waka Eke Noa work stream is that it will develop, essentially, a parallel system, but one that is much more suited for the agricultural sector. So we\u2019re comfortable with that because we launched that with the sector itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I\u2019d like to say about that is that we\u2019re not starting from scratch. So, for example, Fonterra are already doing farm plans for virtually all of their farms. Synlait are doing it for all of theirs. Horticulture New Zealand are doing it with all of their planters around the country. In fact, the previous Government had a significant investment programme stretching back 10 years for agricultural greenhouse gas research, which tens of millions of dollars has gone into and which has started to yield some results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m pretty confident that with the investment that\u2019s historically gone in both from the public sector, and also from the private sector over the course of the last decade and the commitment that the sector itself has made to those time lines, they are doable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb0093700c224d37b77f656a20859a7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb0093700c224d37b77f656a20859a7d\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister for Climate Change for providing those answers. I just have a further question around the mandatory reporting obligations and those time lines. Thank you for explaining to the House that the industry have worked together with the Minister to develop strategies for meeting their obligations. I\u2019m interested to know whether that work was completed in its entirety before the lockdown in the middle of March or whether that work was completed subsequent to the COVID-19 lockdown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ETogether with that, I\u2019m interested to know from the Minister: what are his projections for how long it is going to take the red meat industry to recover from the COVID-19 lockdown and its impacts? I\u2019m talking about things like the bottleneck that we experienced at processing plants during level 4 and, to a certain extent, level 3 and the subsequent impacts on farming operations from having to hold stock, stock losing condition, having to buy an extra feed, and the subsequent feed budgeting into the spring and then on to the summer, all of which, I\u2019m sure the Minister will be aware, will have an impact on farmers\u2019 work programmes, their ability to rise to new challenges, and just simply getting through the day. So I want to know that the Minister has completed this work with the industry bodies, taking COVID-19 into account, because my very rough runway for compliance of two years could very quickly shorten up to 18 months to six months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2a481c25af34899805b1d17b58617d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2a481c25af34899805b1d17b58617d6\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. So the time line is such that the roll-out doesn\u2019t happen on farms until 2023, 2024, 2025. The work stream that we set up with the industry is, essentially, an R \u0026amp; D function\u2014that would be one way to think about it\u2014where we\u2019re pulling together all of these different pieces of work that have been done by both Crown research institutes and the sector bodies and so on over time to try and knit those together into a sort of coherent whole. But the point of having a reporting deadline is to actually get those systems out on to farms by that time. So if you think about it from the lens that the member was just referring to, which is what\u2019s happening at the farm level today, then by the time we\u2019re actually rolling this out in 2023, 2024, 2025\u2014assuming that there\u2019s no additional outbreaks and so on, but actually the present crisis will have well passed by the time it gets to that level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThere is a steering group for that work programme, which includes, from memory, Beef and Lamb New Zealand, DairyNZ, Fonterra, Horticulture New Zealand, Federation of M\u0101ori Authorities, an iwi representative, and representatives from the Ministry for Primary Industries and the Ministry for the Environment, and they have been meeting virtually\u2014as have we all\u2014over the course of the last couple of months, and I haven\u2019t been advised by them that they foresee any significant delay in that work programme as a result of COVID-19. I think that\u2019s probably a function of the circumstances of the timing where we are. You can imagine, for example, if the pandemic outbreak had occurred in, say, 2023, right at the exact point that we were trying to roll this out on farm, that it would cause considerable disruption to our ability to do that, but it doesn\u2019t at the moment. That also, by the way, I have to say, doesn\u2019t relate to the bill, but rather to that work programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022180fd9fe3ea84b34a67a29c9a74721ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022180fd9fe3ea84b34a67a29c9a74721ff\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister for Climate Change for providing that explanation. It didn\u2019t directly address the question I posed, which was: given that farming operations have been impacted by COVID-19 and farming operations don\u2019t just suddenly recover all by themselves\u2014because they have to make planting decisions for the spring and they have to make sure they have enough feed; they have to have feed on the lambing paddock. All of those considerations have got to be in the minds of farmers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Minister for the explanation of the work that is being done, but what allowance will there be in this law if farmers and farming groups cannot comply with their obligations by 21 January 2024? How is the Minister going to deal with the \u201Cwhat if\u201D? What if the farming community, farming sector, cannot comply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u002268aab8a0ef374f7a8b34836a5a81457d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268aab8a0ef374f7a8b34836a5a81457d\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E The Climate Change Commission has the ability to review progress and to suggest any changes to the programme. But, again, I think, given where we are in terms of the pandemic today, by the time we get to 2024 it won\u2019t be a problem. Certainly no one in the sector has suggested to me that there should be, at this point, any decisions made about deferring or changing the time line for that roll-out based on what\u2019s happening today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00224a6f1d069e03491aaa4f5818663878db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a6f1d069e03491aaa4f5818663878db\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d just like to start by saying to the Minister that his officials were outstanding at committee. As Mr Simpson mentioned, this was a hefty bill, it was full of detail; frankly, it was really difficult to get our heads around those 400 pages, and the officials that were provided were outstanding, and they put up with some\u2014well, certainly from my point\u2014questions that they may have found a bit trying. But to get our heads around this, we had to ask them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe Minister, in his speech and many other contributions yesterday, talked about the need for certainty and how this bill was going to bring about certainty. I want to ask some questions around trade-exposed industries and the automatic phase-down of allocations. We heard from submitters in select committee, and it certainly wasn\u2019t their view that this bill was bringing certainty. I can\u2019t imagine a world in which, until 2050, we\u2019re going to not need steel and aluminium and concrete and glass\u2014those things are going to be required, and National always made a provision to allocate trading units to trade-exposed industries, like steel and cement and aluminium, so as not to force the closure of those industries and risk thousands of jobs and potentially carbon leakage overseas. Our policy was not to phase out this assistance until other countries\u2014in our region, at least\u2014had introduced a carbon cost, and none have done that as far as I can see. So I want to know what the Minister\u2019s thoughts are on that, because we are putting those industries at risk, because the bill phases out support at a rate of 1 percent and then 2 percent and then 3 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I\u2019d like to ask the Minister is that the bill makes this regulation power to vary the phase-out date after 2030, but only if it\u2019s recommended by the Climate Change Commission. Now, it\u2019s always been our position that the commission should have recommendation powers only, and I\u2019d just be interested in the Minister\u2019s view on that. We heard from New Zealand Steel and we heard from O-I Glass and a number of other trade-exposed industries, and they talked about the lack of certainty and the lack of any technology coming on the horizon that\u2019s going to allow them to meet these targets, and so they are facing significant costs in the future if the allocation of units is phased down, and they certainly didn\u2019t think this bill brought them certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe other question I\u2019ve got for the Minister\u2014we\u2019re in a new world. We\u2019ve potentially got 300,000 Kiwis out of a job in the next year or so. Hopefully, it\u2019s not that big, but that\u2019s what the Ministry of Social Development are planning for. They\u2019re losing their incomes, they\u2019re potentially losing their homes, we are potentially in the worst economic crisis in living memory, and this bill\u2014no one can argue\u2014will increase the cost of living to all New Zealanders. Now, I know in the zero carbon bill, because I sat in on that bill, that there is a mechanism in that bill, when there are events like this, for the Climate Change Commission to alter its views on things, and for the Government as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EBut what I want to specifically ask the Minister is that yesterday he put out a press release and he\u2019s announcing, under his regulation-making powers, caps on the emissions trading scheme of 160 million tonnes of CO2\u2014but this doesn\u2019t mean anything to New Zealanders. What I want to know is: what does this do to the price of fuel? What does it do to the price of carbon per tonne? What is this going to do for the basket of groceries for New Zealanders? Given that we\u2019re in these\u2014as everyone always says\u2014unprecedented times, has he thought about the effects of COVID-19 on his press release yesterday and what that means for everyday New Zealanders in a post-COVID world? And, like under the zero carbon bill, is there anything in this bill, or under these regulation-making powers, that he should think about when imposing caps under those regulation-making powers? Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u002248ab2a6b082544c2869ed600fa49a952\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248ab2a6b082544c2869ed600fa49a952\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for her questions. Just in relation to that very last question, remember that this is an amendment to the same piece of legislation as the zero carbon bill, and therefore all of the mandatory considerations that we built into the zero carbon bill also apply here, because this, essentially, is subservient to that higher-level framework that we agreed last year. So I think that that\u2019s built in. But there are two quite complex groups of questions in there: one around the energy-intensive trade-exposed firms, which I have given considerable consideration to over the past 2\u00BD years, and also around household costs and impact on households. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ll just say, in relation to the energy-intensive trade-exposed sectors and businesses, the industrial allocation\u2014if you go back to 2008 and 2009 when the emissions trading scheme was first introduced\u2014was actually supposed to phase out, starting then at a much faster rate than what is being proposed here. And in response to the global financial crisis and the Christchurch earthquake, the Government at the time cancelled that phase-out, and that has put us in a position where essentially no progress has been made in the intervening 12 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo this bill has actually been five years in the making. It was the result of a review that was kicked off, I think, by Tim Groser when he was in the climate change role, recognising that, actually, at the settings at the time, we weren\u2019t actually making the kind of progress that we needed to make. So the process of working through the phase-out rates for industrial allocation has been signposted with those companies regularly and they\u2019ve been consulted many, many times over, over the course of the five years, not just in the recent weeks as we\u2019ve been deliberating on the bill, but actually in the design of it as we went through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo I have to say I\u2019m sceptical about claims that it\u2019s unpredictable. The whole point is predictability, because we\u2019re actually saying over a 30-year time horizon, here is the phase-out rate. Up until this point, all it\u2019s saying is, \u201CWell, there\u2019s a kind of sword of Damocles, which is we may phase these things out at some point, but we\u2019re not going to give you the ability to plan for that because we\u2019re not actually signposting in advance what it is.\u201D; whereas what this bill does is it actually signposts over a three-decade time horizon what that looks like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESecond of all, the claim that there are no new technologies emerging is actually also not borne out by the evidence. So in the past sort of three or four years, there have been significant innovations on zero emission production of both steel and aluminium using hydrogen, and those technologies\u2014in fact, Apple and Alcoa entered into a $2 billion contract. I think it was Alcoa or Alcan that entered into a $2 billion contract to set up the world\u2019s first hydrogen-based zero emission aluminium smelter in the northern hemisphere. So that new technology is there. Clearly, it\u2019s not here yet, but the point is that with the kind of phase-out rate and the length of time that we\u2019re giving these businesses, assuming that they decide to stay onshore for, you know, other business reasons, they\u2019ll have access to that technology easily within the time available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ETo give you a sense of the impact of the cost on those firms, if you take New Zealand Steel, for example, their revenues were $937 million in the year 2019. Their allocation of units\u2014so what we gave them\u2014was valued at $44.6 million, assuming a $25 a tonne carbon price, which is roughly what it\u2019s floating at, at the moment, and has been for a while. Their exposure is the equivalent of 1.48 percent of their revenue. If we start the phase-out rate as outlined here, at 1 percent, that equates to 0.49 percent of revenue\u2014so under one half of 1 percent of revenue\u2014and the numbers are lower for aluminium, at 0.34 percent, and for Methanex it\u2019s 0.27 percent. So you can see that the impact of what we\u2019re suggesting, that 1 percent phase-out rate, is absolutely marginal. And when you consider other costs that they face\u2014for example, fluctuations in currency or fluctuations in electricity price or the argument, of course, that the aluminium smelter constantly has about transmission pricing\u2014those are many, many, many more times more material to this business. [Bell rung] Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a184ce9040c41be84c7bffdf7169213\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: James Shaw\u2014the Hon James Shaw, shall we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022986ca78065ad4ed28473f96629e07fbf\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: You can call me what you like, Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210c51e981952413286619d5ab42b4108\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e3aa4c3c2ad41c9be25bf6123ff128e\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Not you; him. Actually, what we\u2019re talking about is really small, but it does start to send that price signal and signal a direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to say about industrial allocation is that there is a risk there we\u2019re actually over-allocating businesses at the moment. So whilst we say that they get a 90 percent free allocation under the scheme and are only liable for 10 percent of their obligation\u2014we\u2019re starting to investigate this; we don\u2019t have evidence yet\u2014we think that there is a possibility that at least in some cases, they may be receiving over 90 percent and, in fact, in some cases over 100 percent. In other words, the Government is allocating them more cash value than they are obliged to pay in total. And so the impact of the phase-out should have, if that bears out over the course of the next couple of years, really no impact on their profitability at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe other thing that the member asked was around competing countries. So I\u2019ll just refer to China, which is, of course, the world\u2019s largest producer of steel and a direct competitor to BlueScope Steel in New Zealand in terms of products available in the New Zealand market. China has seven provincial-level emissions trading schemes operating. They ran those for a number of years, essentially, as an experiment to try and work out what are the optimal settings. They are, I think, from this year, putting in place a nationwide emissions trading scheme. Now, initially, it only applies to the electricity generation sector, i.e., coal-fired power plants, but they\u2019re phasing in other sectors at the rate of\u2014I may need to check this, but I understood that it was at the rate of one new sector each year, and that does include steel. So they will be imposing carbon pricing on their steel production as well. The nature of their emissions trading scheme is different to ours, but the point is that there will be a price applied at the margins. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve been for many years in quite close contact with the Chinese officials about the design of the schemes, because, of course, everybody is in the same boat in relation to this. Any country that has to produce steel needs to cooperate with other countries that produce steel if there is ever to be any kind of emissions pricing on steel anywhere, whether that\u2019s via an emissions trading scheme or via a carbon tax. So I\u2019ll leave it at that, at the moment, although I understand the member may have additional questions around industrial allocation and the emissions-intensive trade-exposed firms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just bring my comments now to her questions around the impact on households. There is quite a lot of work that\u2019s been done on this. This is one of the interesting debates about whether now is the right time to do this? And if you look at the impact the economic crisis has had on petrol prices, I think that retail prices have dropped\u2014again, I\u2019ll need to check this\u2014by about 48c a litre over the course of the last few months, because demand has dropped. By comparison, the additional price that would be imposed, let\u2019s say, if prices rose to $35 a tonne from the current $25 a tonne\u2014that would impose about a 9c a litre additional cost. You know, prices have fallen 48c per litre, so you can see that, actually, households are still better off in terms of their petrol prices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to say about this, of course, is that the whole point is to induce change. So all of the modelling\u2014and this is a source of some frustration to me\u2014assumes no change, and therefore everything only ever appears in the modelling as an increased cost. But, of course, if firms do start to, for example, introduce a biofuel component into the mix of their petrol, then the carbon obligation would go down and, therefore, the cost would go down. If there\u2019s no price, then there\u2019s no incentive to change and you end up with the same result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d103b3aadab14339bfe22aea31204c89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d103b3aadab14339bfe22aea31204c89\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to pick up a little bit on the comments made by my colleague Erica Stanford in relation to the industrial allocation. I want to thank the Minister for his answers to her questions, but there are a couple of matters that I do just want to tease out, if I might. At select committee and in our report, we felt\u2014well, a majority of us felt\u2014that actually there was a greater need for ministerial flexibility when it came to reviewing industrial allocation phase out. The statute that we are considering suggests initially that, if there are to be changes, it should be on the recommendation of the commission\u2014and we don\u2019t have any disagreement with that\u2014but, because the number of high-emitting businesses that are allocated industrial allocations is relatively small, some of them have very specialised contributions to make to the New Zealand economy and our way of life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EOne of them that came to select committee and really did go into some detail was the New Zealand refinery up north at Marsden Point. And therein lies a real issue, because they told us that they had a special agreement that had been entered into in good faith years and years ago, at the time when the refinery was set up, going back as far as the mid-1960s, to a period of time before the refinery was set up, when actually we imported refined fuels into New Zealand in a finished state. I don\u2019t think we would want to, as a country, go back to that. So there\u2019s a case in point where the refinery company makes a good, solid contribution in terms of the day-to-day lives that we have\u2014and, yes, over a period of time, one would expect that the reliance that we have as a nation on fossil fuels to provide fuels for transport, for light and heavy vehicles, will diminish. That\u2019s fine and dandy. But the Minister, in his answer to my colleague Erica Stanford\u2019s question, was quick to point out that the component that was the free allocation cost, if you like, to that business, relative to revenue, was very tiny. But, as a former boss of mine used to often tell me, a sale isn\u2019t profit. And, what\u2019s more, actually it\u2019s the margin; it\u2019s the proportion of the impact on the profit and the ability for that entity to trade profitably on an ongoing basis that\u2019s, frankly, more important than the revenue number.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAnd, yes, in recent months, petrol prices at the pump have dropped, but I don\u2019t think, even in his wildest imagination, the Minister is expecting that to continue for very long. And, at the current level of $25 a tonne, it\u2019s estimated that that portion is about 4c a litre\u2014and if I heard the Minister correctly, he said, at $35, it\u2019s going to increase by nine. So is that 13c in total, or is that 9c in total at $35? So I\u2019m keen to know just clarity around that, because $35 a tonne is just the sort of transitional stepping stone, and it\u2019s the point at which New Zealanders start to understand the true impact and cost of climate change when it hits their wallet. Of course, when you get, for instance, at $35 a tonne, a 9c a litre impact at the petrol pump, that has a ripple effect through the entire economy. It\u2019s not just the price that the consumer pays at the pump; that\u2019s the same price that the courier or the freight company delivering tins of spaghetti to the supermarket\u2014and that has a price component that multiples through the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m keen to know just, firstly, about some of those industries that are currently receiving the industrial allocation who play a special part in the very fabric of the New Zealand economy and our way of lives, and how he sees that playing out and the flexibility he sees in this legislation to enable him as Minister to respond to situations as they have occurred. And, for instance, we\u2019ve seen just in the last month or two, an unexpected huge situation arise, that no one could have rationally foreseen, that requires an ability for ministerial intervention in a nimble, flexible, timely way, if necessary. And, secondly, I\u2019m keen for him just to be a bit more precise about the impact, for instance, of petrol prices at $35 a tonne and also what that might mean beyond petrol prices and for other aspects within our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u00221af4722034d946bcbac427bd6ae8fc51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221af4722034d946bcbac427bd6ae8fc51\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Right, so just for the sake of clarity, it\u2019s an increase of 3c to 9c, right? My point was to illustrate the fact that during an economic downturn, when you have reduced demand, prices fall\u2014statement of the blindingly obvious. But the point is that, in introducing change now\u2014which is the central argument that the National Party has been making about this legislation\u2014because prices have fallen so much, the cost, actually, is a lot lower. If COVID-19 hadn\u2019t continued\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246e02d3d561c42df907fcbbc4260259b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The hurt is lower.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245a98246bf864e2598c834ab2017f54b\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what I\u2019m saying is that, actually, the prices that households are paying for their petrol\u2014same amount of petrol if you\u2019re driving around\u2014are considerably lower today than they were three months ago. And that, actually, if COVID-19 hadn\u2019t shown up, and, you know, the economy was humming along, and we\u2019re at capacity constraints, and all of that kind of stuff, then prices would be higher because of the pressure in the economy, and, therefore, that marginal additional difference would be felt a great deal more at that moment. So I guess what I\u2019m saying is: I dispute the central notion that now is the wrong time because, actually, prices are so much lower right now than they would normally be that you don\u2019t notice it. This is the point about a market mechanism, of course, is that it changes depending on the conditions in the market. Carbon prices themselves are lower now because there is less demand for units because, for example, Air New Zealand is flying less than they have, and so their requirements for units have really shrunk. Therefore, prices have come down. And that\u2019s a fundamental difference between an emissions trading scheme and a carbon tax, for example. A carbon tax is simply a staged increase over any number of years\u2014just wanted to say something about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESecond thing, he\u2019s asking for ministerial oversight. One of the key things that we were trying to do with the zero carbon bill was to depoliticise the debate. I\u2019m concerned about the idea of reintroducing too much political debate and also, frankly, the ability of organisations and sectors that have got strong lobby groups being able to influence political decisions at their own advantage but, actually, at the disadvantage of other sectors in the economy. I have to say, we\u2019ve seen a bit of that recently where, you know, people acting in their own self-interests, which is entirely understandable, propose a change to the legislation that would have, perhaps, a catastrophic effect for another sector or, actually, for household prices. So the reason for ensuring that Government acts only on the advice of the commission is a way of guarding against those two things. However, of course, Parliament is supreme, and, as we\u2019ve seen over the course of the last few weeks, in an emergency, it is possible and entirely understandable for emergency legislation to be introduced if there is a need to do so, and we\u2019ve got a number of cases of that just recently\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EFinally, the member asked about the refinery, and the refinery is actually a unique case because they were not\u2014in fact, at the moment, are not\u2014participants in the emissions trading scheme. They entered into a negotiated greenhouse gas agreement in the 1990s with the Government, which was essentially a special arrangement where they made commitments to achieve certain targets, and, in return, they wouldn\u2019t come into the emissions trading scheme until a certain point. The member is absolutely correct; they entered into that agreement with certain undertakings. The issue recently, of course, is that, since those undertakings were made, technology and other things have changed. So there was a concern that they were going to be brought in on a different basis from firms that were already in the emissions trading scheme that were receiving industrial allocations. Now, there are a number of concerns about industrial allocation, obviously, but we made the call to say, look, we should honour the agreement that was entered into, regardless of, you know, history since. And also, we should treat them on the same basis that we are treating all of the other emissions-intensive trade-exposed firms that receive an industrial allocation. And that was the certainty that they were looking for, and we gave them that. Now, there will be a review of industrial allocation, but it isn\u2019t just going to apply to one company or one sector; it will apply to all equally. So everyone will be treated fairly as we progress through that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThat is quite a slow process, which brings me to the member\u2019s next point, which is that revenue and profit are not the same thing. The reason I was using revenue is because I can see revenue. But the nature of profit is not always so easy to discern, particularly when it comes to international companies where, due to the nature of tax arrangements and so on, it is possible for firms to have quite high revenues, but quite low profits in one territory if they think that that forms an advantage. So we\u2019ve been using revenue, recognising that it\u2019s not a perfect measure, but because, you know, we can\u2019t look through firms into all of the finer details of their accounts, it\u2019s not really possible for us to use profit as a basis of comparison. The other thing, of course, is that you can compare revenue between different companies, but you can\u2019t easily compare profits between different companies for the same reason. So revenue is not a perfect measure, I acknowledge that, but it\u2019s a more functional measure than using profit in this regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022700e36539ae54d258eeb5738b3ca98e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022700e36539ae54d258eeb5738b3ca98e1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d just like to thank the Minister for Climate Change. I think he\u2019s been very helpful this afternoon in the way that he\u2019s responded to questions. If he can carry on that approach\u2014because, as a respected Minister, I think he\u2019s actually doing a very good job in the House this afternoon. So if we could carry on that approach, it would be good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve just got a few questions that have arisen from his answers, and the first question is just what we just talked about before about the increase in the petrol price. The Minister said, well, basically, there\u2019s been a 48c reduction. Consumers might have a 9c increase or 3c increase, but, in general, they\u2019re not going to be too poorly off because they\u2019ve had a massive reduction. I just want the Minister to answer what it actually means for the average household on their income side though. The reason you\u2019ve had a 48c reduction in petrol prices is because the world economy stopped. The world economy stopped because of the crisis. So world prices of oil, basically, went to zero\u2014negative, actually. That is not going to last, as the Hon Scott Simpson said\u2014but the impact on households will last because we are going into a recession, if not a depression, and, in that period of time, the most vulnerable households will lose income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s all right talking about the expense side and saying, \u201CWell, they were paying less in fuel.\u201D, but they are now facing a situation where they don\u2019t have a job. They\u2019re now facing a situation, if they did have a job, where it\u2019s on reduced hours. And they\u2019re now facing a situation, if they did have a two-income family, where they\u2019ve probably only got a one-income family, if that. So it\u2019s all right to say, well, \u201CHey, you\u2019re not going to lose too much on the expense side.\u201D, but the reason petrol prices are low is because these people aren\u2019t going to have work. They\u2019re not going to have the income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s our point. At the very time the most vulnerable people out there will be hurt through a crisis like this\u2014the rich will always find a way of getting around it, but the most vulnerable people will hurt the most out of this crisis. When that price of fuel goes up, they can\u2019t avoid it. They just can\u2019t avoid those fuel costs. It might be less than what they paid for before, but they\u2019re earning a lot less than what they were earning before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo I want the Minister to look at it. He talked about economics and things like that. Well, the first economic question I\u2019ve got to him is: how does he explain the rationality for having a cost increase on the most vulnerable people when they\u2019re going to have an even bigger reduction in their revenue in the next few months to couple of years? And how can he, in good conscience, do that to the people that are most vulnerable out there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002288532123e196460e8ba978eb841063d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288532123e196460e8ba978eb841063d4\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to pick up on what I started, Mr Scott Simpson continued, and the Hon David Bennett has mentioned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI want to take issue with the Minister when he says that now is the right time, because I would argue that now is the worst time. And I\u2019d argue that it\u2019s the worst time because we have no idea, at this stage, of the impacts of COVID-19 on our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re predicting potentially 300,000 people out of work. I don\u2019t think we have any idea of the potential impacts on New Zealanders. It doesn\u2019t matter if the price of fuel is $1.50, or if it\u2019s $2.50, when you don\u2019t have a job and you don\u2019t have any income and your livelihood has been destroyed by COVID-19. As Scott Simpson mentioned, we don\u2019t know what the price of fuel is going to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EJames Shaw, the Hon James Shaw, mentioned earlier that in 2008 to 2009, after the Christchurch earthquakes and after the global financial crisis, National made some decisions in pulling back on some of those levers round the emissions trading scheme. And we did so for good reason. We did so because we wanted to protect New Zealand\u2019s jobs and New Zealanders\u2019 livelihoods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re in an even worse situation now than we were then. And this Minister thinks that now is the right time to, effectively, impose new taxes on everyday New Zealanders who are potentially going to be going through the worst possible time of their lives because of this crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWhat we are proposing is to just put it out for a 12-month period so that we have the full information about exactly what this economic crisis is going to do to New Zealanders. I don\u2019t want the Minister to stand up today and tell me how this climate change is so very urgent that we must act now, because the Minister has had $100 million of a Green Investment Fund that he\u2019s been sitting on for three years and not done anything with. He had a promise to electrify the Government\u2019s fleet. He hasn\u2019t done that. Those are simple things he could have done to reduce New Zealand\u2019s emissions and be a leader in climate change reduction, and he hasn\u2019t done any of that stuff. So it would be very rich for him to get up today and tell us that it\u2019s so very urgent, that we can\u2019t put it off for a year, when we\u2019re looking at, potentially, the worst economic crisis in living memory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESorry I get a bit het up, but I just find it very rich when the Green Party tell us about this climate change emergency, when they can\u2019t even spend the $100 million that they got in the Green Investment Fund in the negotiations post-election. There\u2019s been nothing on electrifying the Government fleet like they promised. We\u2019ve got West Coast, small-scale hydroelectric dams that they\u2019re turning down. These are things that can actually make a difference now that they\u2019re not doing. So I don\u2019t want to hear that it\u2019s that urgent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI want to know from the Minister why now\u2014without any of the information that we could potentially have in 12 months about the scale of this disaster\u2014and why he thinks now is the right time to impose new costs, new taxes on Kiwis who are going to be struggling after the potentially 300,000 of them lose their jobs, and, potentially, their homes, their businesses, their livelihoods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EAt this point in time, I would argue that it is the worst possible time\u2014without all of that information in front of us\u2014to be making such enormous decisions about new taxes that will increase the cost of living for everybody in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u002223d91b1618ca4fb7bce3c67b7a6b6e0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223d91b1618ca4fb7bce3c67b7a6b6e0e\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I am directing my questions now to the Minister for Climate Change. I wasn\u2019t intending to take a call in this debate, but with the contribution of the Hon David Bennett\u2014and, I would argue, my mistake in heckling him. I do feel as though I\u2019ve poked the bear, and we may now be extending this debate well beyond the dinner break. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBut I just wanted to ask the Minister about some of the thematics that have arisen particularly from the Opposition\u2019s contributions in this committee of the whole House debate tonight, some of which I\u2019ve just jotted down. The first is really that I intend to unpack what appears to be surfacing, which is this false binary of a choice between jobs or the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EOn that point, I really want him to drill down, in particular, into this abstract notion of the economy, as is often bandied about, particularly with regard to GDP, which I note the Minister for Climate Change actually spoke about prior to becoming the Minister. I remember back in the mists of time\u2014I think it was an op-ed authored for Stuff, potentially\u2014about the fact that GDP, as a measure, is such a flawed measure of the success, the welfare, and the distribution inside of our society. The reason for that is the gross domestic product is literally just a measure of the amount of transactions that we are having inside of our economy. It is not a measure of the quality, of the contribution to, for example, the health of our environment, nor the distribution of them. The point therein is that our GDP can continue to go up, as it was so artificially inflated under that former National Government, as per really poor policy decisions that degrade our environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EGDP goes up when there is an oil spill. GDP goes up when there is a car crash. GDP goes up when somebody gets cancer. GDP goes up when there is a natural disaster. That is because there have to be economic transactions in order to undo that social ill, and the point here\u2014the question that I am putting to the Minister for Climate Change\u2014fundamentally comes back to this false binary being presented by the Opposition tonight on the environment and the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u002293f9d0986cc44eb5a6d48c52301ec596\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293f9d0986cc44eb5a6d48c52301ec596\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I feel we are straying a wee bit away from the substance of the bill. I was going to start by complimenting Erica Stanford on her fine piece of political theatre that I think will do very well for her social media channels, but I feel that it\u2019s equally distributed around the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo look, what I want to just address is this point about is it the right time or the wrong time and costs on households. So to start with Mr Bennett\u2019s question: if prices were to double\u2014right, so they\u2019re currently floating at around $25. If the carbon price was to double to $50 a tonne, the impact on middle-income households would be about $3.40 a week. For households in the lowest 20 percent of income levels, the weekly costs would increase by about $2 a week, and that\u2014like I was saying before to an earlier question\u2014assumes no change. So that assumes that everything ticks along and nobody changes anything\u2014so a return to the status quo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, we have doubled the winter energy payment this year, we\u2019ve increased the base benefits across all benefit classes by $25 a week, we\u2019ve put out wage subsidy schemes, and so on. So it is possible to address those costs in a variety of ways, but they are at the margin. Now, I know for a low-income household, $2 a week, actually\u2014given how low benefit rates are in New Zealand; below cost of living\u2014that makes a difference. But what that says to me is that we need to do more to ensure that people have adequate income to cover their cost of living.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThat leads me into some of the points that Erica Stanford was making about whether now is the right time or the wrong time. There is an economic downturn approximately every 10 years globally, which affects New Zealand to a greater or lesser extent. So if you went back to 2009, you had the global financial crisis (GFC), the Christchurch earthquake\u2014obviously the Christchurch earthquake just affected New Zealand, but there was an impact of the GFC on New Zealand, obviously, as there was around the world. If you went back 10 years before that, there was the Asian bird flu which did affect New Zealand in terms of the economic impact here. You also had the bursting of the dotcom bubble in 2000\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221ea8927e9b8492fbf693f285b640e58\u0022\u003EHon Tim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: This is nothing like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264cc22cade9542ecbcf3459cd13e9edb\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that this isn\u2019t like that but I haven\u2019t finished the point yet. My point is that every time that there is an economic downturn, when they\u2019re in Government, the National Party says, \u201CGreat. Let\u2019s defer action on climate change. Let\u2019s put it off until things get better.\u201D And then things get better and you kind of think, OK, well we probably need to review those settings, right? Roughly five years after the last economic crisis\u20142015 was the review. Then that whole process, because it\u2019s so complicated, takes a few years to roll in, and then you say, \u201CLook, great. Here\u2019s some reforms that we need to do.\u201D, and then, boom, there\u2019s another economic downturn, \u201CLet\u2019s kick the can down the road.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, when it comes to climate change\u2014and she did say that she doesn\u2019t want me to talk about urgency, but I\u2019m afraid if she asks the question she\u2019s going to need to tolerate my answer, which is that climate change does actually have a time frame on it. If you read the science, what it suggests is that globally carbon dioxide emissions need to fall by approximately 50 percent in the next 10 years in order for us to stay within the 1.5 degree threshold of global warming. Now, every year that we defer action\u2014because carbon dioxide is a stop gas and stays up there and it accumulates\u2014means that we\u2019re imposing additional cost the following year, because you not only need to do that year\u2019s action, you need to do this year\u2019s that you\u2019ve given up as well. We have been doing that for 30 years\u2014we\u2019ve been putting off action. What that means is we are now at the point when we\u2019re out of time and the cost that previous Governments have imposed on us by kicking the can down the road is so much higher. It is much more expensive and much more difficult to do the longer you leave it. So that\u2019s why we\u2019re in the position that we are in of having to take action now because action wasn\u2019t taken 10 or 20 or even 30 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo you compare that to the United Kingdom. Here is another part of the argument that is fallacious in my view, which is the idea that this only comes at cost and that there\u2019s no such thing as a return on the investment. If you look at the country that has been most successful in reducing its greenhouse gas emissions, it\u2019s the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom has reduced their emissions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207a46fa7efc8412aaa88cd2b0a666512\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Because they\u2019ve destroyed their economy over 20 years\u2014went from an industrial economy to a service one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9a42d6a760b4232ae31078366aee821\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bennett, hear me out. The United Kingdom have reduced their emissions by approximately 40 percent below their 1990 levels in 10 years, and, at the same time, prior to Brexit, they had the fastest growing economy in the G20 over the same period of time. So the notion that acting on climate change will somehow destroy the economy runs against the evidence of those countries that actually have reduced their emissions over the course of the last decade or so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo intellectually, it would be a more honest position for the National Party to take to say, \u201CActually, we think that acting on climate change is only ever a cost and an impost, that there can be no benefit from it, and therefore let\u2019s just give up on it, let\u2019s forget about it. Let\u2019s get rid of the emissions trading scheme, let\u2019s get rid of the zero carbon Act, let\u2019s take no action on climate change at all.\u201D because the mentality that\u2019s coming through is that it only has a cost, but it doesn\u2019t. The evidence is actually that once you get started\u2014and the hard part is getting started, and we\u2019ve never really gotten started in this country\u2014the transition is faster and cheaper than any of the modelling ever suggests. So I think that the basis of the argument that we need to defer only ever increases costs on future generations of taxpayers and households, and that\u2019s why the situation that we\u2019re in\u2014we want to avoid that. And because prices are lower at the moment, the cost in the margins now simply won\u2019t be felt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo those are my points there. I can\u2019t remember\u2014I think I may have addressed most of Mr Bennett\u2019s questions, but clearly he\u2019s keen for some more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f38b06c3f8f142a8b5a6651536b516f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f38b06c3f8f142a8b5a6651536b516f6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I take offence at some of the comments that the Minister has made around the National Party and our approach to the emissions trading scheme. It\u2019s just simply not the case that the National Party puts it off and just sees it as a cost. We are here in this House working with the Green Party on many environmental bills\u2014in the past, when we were in Government and in Opposition. We don\u2019t see it as a cost. We see that there is a lot of competitive advantage too, as our country transitions and that. So don\u2019t get us wrong: we\u2019re not just trying to put it in that cost element. That\u2019s the deflection the left always puts on the right to say, \u201CWell, that\u2019s why you\u2019re not interested in these things.\u201D That\u2019s not actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229929dc6dbf44b0785415392b3c6a50c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s exactly her argument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d12ec9930c044228567be02e8d51aff\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No, the point that my colleague made is that at this very point in time, people are going to have lower incomes. To think that just because they\u2019ve got one lower expense, they can sustain that expense and it doesn\u2019t matter to them when they\u2019re actually in dire straits income-wise\u2014is our point. It\u2019s not that it\u2019s just a cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWe had an economics lesson, which was completely irrelevant and wrong, and then we heard the Minister for Climate Change talk about the UK. Well, the UK used to be the industrial belt of the world. They fought a war making planes and everything, and now they\u2019re just into a service economy, effectively. Their industrial economy went out the door over the last 50 years, and they transitioned to a service economy. So of course their emissions are going to go down. Look at the Russian economy\u2014very much the same thing. A historical basis is not a reason for him to say that suddenly they\u2019ve made great strides in economic and environmental planning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI want to go back to those numbers that he talked about. The Minister was very good earlier in this piece when he went and explained the numbers around what the Hon Jacqui Dean asked about. I want him to give us that clarity around those numbers now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo you\u2019re telling us that there\u2019s $340 a week. Is that for the average family\u2014the increase in costs at a $50 carbon price?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c3b0435bb65496695cbc900563ebcd1\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: $3.40.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acd1395bd3584d5eb246d175fc1de732\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: $3.40. And for the lowest 20 percent, it\u2019s $2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2aca22061ba4c48b09d2fdeeb4af898\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7d77669d0664984b3d3f5b996d27da4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: OK. That\u2019s good for us to see, because it sounded like $340 when you said it, so we were a bit challenged by your numbers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c013a610a3244df97dd1c63495bdd98\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Getting excited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e1ec967b7434c4b9ee5fcf2dad76ab8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo when we came to Jacqui Dean\u2019s economic analysis of the beef and lamb sector against forestry, you talked about the number of jobs there that are in the beef and lamb and agricultural sector. Do you want to expand on that 60,000 jobs, I think, you talked about there\u2014what your breakdown of that is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EAlso, it would be really interesting if you\u2019ve done a breakdown on the revenue per hectare. The effective argument that was being made was that the forestry industry in New Zealand employs 25,000 people or something like that and is only a quarter of the land, and yet sheep and beef is 66,000 people for four times the area of land. Well, let\u2019s have a look at the real economics of that. What\u2019s the revenue per hectare from those bits of land? Is the sheep and beef farm providing a revenue per hectare of $1,000 a hectare and forestry $200 a hectare? What\u2019s the revenue for New Zealand that comes from those blocks of land? Do you have those numbers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db656ddb63724ecaac627593e5152343\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260f9889bbf0e486c84d08b9282dc792f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022262feb53eaf24b58a10194c6ea9a9573\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022262feb53eaf24b58a10194c6ea9a9573\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I would have thought that, as the National Party\u2019s primary industries spokesperson, he would have those numbers, actually. So you have to remember that the bill is cross-sectoral. The emissions trading scheme covers all sectors, right? It\u2019s not designed to deal with one sector over another; although there are pieces of legislation that deal with that. So I don\u2019t have the red meat revenue per hectare, but maybe I can give you some proxies for some of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo, as I said before, I didn\u2019t actually have with me the breakdown of the locations or the sub-sectors within the red meat sector, because, frankly, they\u2019re not terribly relevant to the bill. But, if you want to talk about the increased cost, which is the point that the National Party is making over and over again, my point that I was making was that we understand that this could have an effect on household prices if nothing changes and no one changes their behaviour, and that is one of the reasons why we\u2019ve done that modelling. And, like I said, for a middle-income household, it comes out at about $3.40 a week, assuming no change. But, getting rid of the emissions trading scheme, or gutting the emissions trading scheme, or allowing it to remain busted, isn\u2019t the solution to that problem, right? The solution to that problem is to make sure that people have adequate incomes, which is something that we are doing as a Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ELet me give you a sense of\u2014again assuming no change\u2014what the effect of this bill would be in the rural sector. It would introduce\u2014could introduce, depending on what happens in reality\u2014an additional cost of 1c per kilo on milk solids in the year 2025\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225835ff4b6d254edebefa3ef0b887ada4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m listening to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d38131a4e2f4c6bb77d480311a9a221\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I mean, it was his question; so I want to make sure he\u2019s making notes; so I want to make sure he gets all the details. It would introduce a cost of 1c per kilo on milk solids in the year 2025, right, compared with, say, changes in Fonterra payouts of between 40c and 60c per year, on average, since 2017. So, again, it\u2019s really at the margins, and what Fonterra decides to do makes many orders of magnitude more difference than what this does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EBut to draw the analogy to the previous conversation, we wouldn\u2019t try and deal with changes in the Fonterra payout via the emissions trading scheme; it\u2019s a separate thing and it itself has impacts, and we try to manage those impacts through a variety of Government policies. In terms of lamb, you\u2019re talking about 3c per kilo in lamb in 2025, and if you compare that to the fluctuations in the farm-gate returns for lamb of about 100c per kilo over the course of the 2018-19 season alone, you\u2019re talking about a 1 percent variance versus the kind of business as usual variances. So the costs really are absolutely minimal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I wanted to say is that there are drystock farmers who will directly benefit from the changes that we\u2019re introducing here, because one of the issues that the emissions trading scheme has is that it is, frankly, mind-bogglingly complicated, and for someone who wants to be a forestry participant in it, it\u2019s tended to favour large, complex businesses that are able to navigate the complex system that\u2019s been created. One of the things that we wanted to do was to simplify it so that a farmer who\u2019s got plenty to deal with on their plate but does have a small patch of their land that they wouldn\u2019t mind getting more value out of is able to participate much more easily. So what that means is that there will be farmers who will be able to get more revenue per hectare for some parts of their farms than they currently can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo one of my concerns is that, if we were to defer this\u2014particularly at this moment in time\u2014what that would mean is that we would be limiting the ability of those farmers to earn additional revenue that they currently can\u2019t easily access, and I think that\u2019s pretty significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00220757a12fe38e448aaa40ada6c451f7b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220757a12fe38e448aaa40ada6c451f7b4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the Hon David Bennett, could I ask him to do two things? First of all, don\u2019t bring me into the debate; it\u2019s the sort of Mark Mitchell syndrome that\u2019s spread across to you. So if you could try\u2014I know it\u2019s quite hard when you\u2019re having a conversation too, but if you could try. But, also, for the last three or four speakers, we have had a lot of repetition on a very narrow point. It\u2019s a big bill and there\u2019s lots to talk about, so if you could expand the conversation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00220b3509553db44d469340f351bac1b6b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b3509553db44d469340f351bac1b6b6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I just wanted to go on to another point at this stage. One of the key themes the Minister has used in his answers tonight has been that there will be a positive impact, not just a negative impact, from the changes, and \u201CLet\u2019s not forget that when we are making our calculations and we\u2019re looking at the legislation.\u201D That\u2019s true, and we understand and accept that as well. But there is one bit which I feel is very difficult to understand, and that is that\u2014and this is the second point that the Minister has had as a theme, and in his second reading speech it was very clear\u2014there\u2019s a degree of trust between the Government and the primary sector. They\u2019ve come to an agreement, and he\u2019s very clear that that agreement is something that they and the primary sector feel they can meet, and the Minister is very privileged and happy to have that agreement and sees it as a great combination\u2014and I think anybody in New Zealand will see that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe question then is: if there is an agreement, if there is that trust, and if there is that positive impact from what can happen, why then do we need a hammer over the industry in 2022, where the Minister can just say, \u201CThey haven\u2019t done enough, but I decide that I want more and I require that this happens in 2025.\u201D? How can there be, really, a trust in an agreement when the agreement can be overridden by one party at a later date, without any negotiation, without a sense of fair play? And, for farmers, that is the crucial thing: they have uncertainty in their business every day. The Minister has talked about the fluctuation in prices that are reliant on international prices and exchange rates\u2014all that\u2014and more uncertainty over the weather. You know, droughts and all those things are all part of the uncertainty of farming. And here we add another uncertainty on, where their industry groups go and do a deal with Government in the best interests of their farmers and in the best interests of New Zealand, and yet the Minister isn\u2019t really going to trust them. The Minister is holding back something\u2014holding back the ability to override that agreement whenever he feels they haven\u2019t met what they want, from the Government\u2019s perspective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI want him to take that out of the bill, because, if he really believed what he\u2019s been telling us tonight\u2014that there are positives that are going to come out of this legislation\u2014if he really said and believed that that agreement is something that is standing and positive and shows the direction forward, which we all want, then why does he control in the end the ability to override it at his will, at any point in his time? And, as a Green Party that espouses the values of trust and negotiation and fairness and equity, how can somebody have an agreement that can be overridden by one party at a later date without giving the people that will be affected that certainty around their business\u2014that certainty around what they\u2019re doing for New Zealand at this point in time and what they\u2019re going to be asked to do in the next couple of years to save the budget of this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister took that out, took that override provision out, it wouldn\u2019t make any difference. We\u2019re looking at two or three years where everybody has to work together anyway. He\u2019s got plenty of time to always come back and negotiate with those parties. He\u2019s got plenty of time to come back to this House\u2014or whoever the Minister may be\u2014but, no, he\u2019s going to retain a power to enforce something that isn\u2019t needed at this time, and that would take a lot of uncertainty out of farmers\u2019 interests at the moment if they knew they were working in an industry agreement, they knew that they were working under those agreements to get the best options. But, now, they don\u2019t have that, because all they know is that, in two years\u2019 time, the Minister, at a whim, could decide that they haven\u2019t performed and then create a new level of regulation. So I implore the Minister, in his good nature and the way he treats issues, to actually do that in practice as well and not have a bill that actually does the opposite from good faith, because I\u2019ve never heard of a negotiation where you come to an agreement and then, two years later, one party can override it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e477ba6a88454651bbbb8680ec6130c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e477ba6a88454651bbbb8680ec6130c3\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E That may be because the member, David Bennett, is not a lawyer. It may not surprise the member to learn that I am not going to take that out of the bill. The reason why that provision is there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bee02c93bc574994a7dcf6806457b5c4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s got confidence you\u2019ll be here in two years\u2019 time, anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202998213dcb1462a920e6eb3a6c404e5\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to reassure the member that, actually, his nightmare scenario that he\u2019s painting of me\u2014who, clearly, according to his projections will still be the climate change Minister in two years\u2019 time, and I thank him for his confidence\u2014that I will be able to, at a whim, simply override and bring them into the emissions trading scheme (ETS) at the process level regardless of anything. Actually, if he reads the bill, what he\u2019ll see is that the Minister cannot do that. It\u2019s actually outlined that there is a process by which the Climate Change Commission monitors progress. The Climate Change Commission then makes recommendations to the Government, and then the Government must respond within a period of time. So the Government cannot on a whim do anything, actually. The Government can only respond to the advice that it is given, and it cannot act without the advice of the commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESecond of all, what the member is suggesting is a voluntary agreement. Whilst the zero carbon bill was going through the House and before we had a Climate Change Commission, we set up something called the Interim Climate Change Committee, which had a number of people on it who had had some experience over the last 30 years with agricultural greenhouse gas research and various attempts, over the course of the last three decades, to make progress on this issue. There have been voluntary agreements between Governments and the sector before, which haven\u2019t resulted in anything. We also got advice from the United Kingdom, because they also have a voluntary agreement in the United Kingdom. The advice is they said it\u2019s not going anywhere. So it\u2019s an issue of incentives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI also just want to correct the member on something. He suggested that we came to an agreement and then introduced this provision. This provision is part of the agreement. It was negotiated between us and the sector at the time. When we stood up in the Legislative Council Chamber and we launched the partnership with the agricultural sector, we did so on the basis that this was the provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, I understand it wasn\u2019t comfortable, but it also wasn\u2019t comfortable for those who would like to see agriculture introduced into the emissions trading scheme immediately. Remember, Mr Bennett, that it is the only sector of the economy that is not currently covered, so they have preferential treatment at the moment because other sectors are included in the emissions trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ea622e80fad4c82a4563c68cc06a190\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022355c7f1502184738ba69860b19d8aeb1\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Just let me finish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThis is part of the agreement. There were safeguards that were built into it. We heard the concerns of the sector at the time. We also heard the concerns of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022044d1d7d397b49c780b218987b0ea440\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, but the time has come for the House to adjourn for the dinner break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232de5a6eae2d42a786612c94444cb720\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll be brief. I understand, from memory, that the question that I was asked was about the ability of the climate change Minister to simply call in the agricultural emissions work programme and dump them into the ETS. I was just reassuring the member that that is actually not possible in the legislation, that there is a process that has to be gone through, and that there is, essentially, an independent audit, which leads to advice which the Minister can then respond to. That would be consistent with the principle that his colleague Scott Simpson was talking about: the principle of ministerial oversight. But we do want to make sure that the Ministers cannot act by themselves. So there is that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I think I was just starting to talk about was how the experience in New Zealand and overseas of voluntary agreements hasn\u2019t yielded results over the course of the last 20 years or so. The advice that we received from the Interim Climate Change Committee was that we needed another mechanism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI just wanted to talk a wee bit about how the incentives are set up. So in a purely voluntary agreement, you can imagine that the incentive\u2014not through any malicious intent\u2014is to go slowly, right? If you\u2019re on to a winning wicket, why would you want to change? In a voluntary agreement, there\u2019s no particular reason to achieve any particular outcome by any time, right? You can just continue doing R \u0026amp; D and so on, because there is no point where you need to actually change behaviour, right, or to change any systems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve set up here is a system which says there will be a pricing mechanism from 2025 and the sector will design that\u2014obviously, in partnership with Government. But the intention is to say that if they don\u2019t come up with that, then it will become part of the emissions trading scheme via the processes, which is the least-best outcome, right, because of how the sectors work. But that creates a deadline that says, actually, the incentive then flips on its head, and the incentive is to get that work done as fast as possible rather than to defer it, which has been the experience both in New Zealand and overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThat was, simply, why that mechanism is there. It\u2019s not to do with a lack of trust at all; it\u2019s just, really, to make sure that we\u2019ve got the incentives aligned to get through that work programme. Like I said, that is part of the agreement that we have with the sector. So whilst some of them might not have been\u2014you know, they might have been a bit grumpy about the design of it\u2014ultimately, they said, \u201CLook, if that\u2019s the quid pro quo for us to be empowered to actually do the work and to demonstrate that we can do it, let\u2019s go for it.\u201D So I\u2019m pretty happy with where that got to, and, frankly, given the fraught nature of the negotiations and what it took to get to that point, I wouldn\u2019t want to unpick it at this time. I think that that would create yet more uncertainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u002228bfda75fcb14075bd2b73acf7af8b0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228bfda75fcb14075bd2b73acf7af8b0e\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Before I get to my questions, I\u2019d just like to thank the Minister for the way he\u2019s methodically stepped us all through this bill. This is an incredibly complex piece of legislation and is incredibly wide ranging with wide implications for how our economy and our society will be shaped over the next 30 years. So I think we all appreciate that, and I think, also, outside of this committee stage, I\u2019m sure, not only for those of us on this side, but I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve been available to the other side as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EJust a comment for a start around the He Waka Eke Noa initiative. I think that is a brilliant initiative. It does give farmers a chance to design a scheme that is suitable, because it is a different\u2014we\u2019re talking about a flow gas and also, of course, a pastoral sector and horticultural sector that\u2019s incredibly important to our economy. That we have got a bit of time to design a system that\u2019s fit for purpose is, I think, appreciated by the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EMy particular question is around, there has been some commentary around the\u2014I guess you could say they\u2019re the carbon farmers, or those looking for permanent forest sinks, and when we\u2019re talking about forestry, we\u2019re talking about plantation forestry most of the time in our own minds when we\u2019re discussing this, but there is also a place for permanent carbon sinks, particularly in the more erosion-prone land. I think we\u2019ve seen a good example up Gisborne way on the East Coast two or three years ago where we had a significant environmental impact from, perhaps, forestry in areas that may not have been suited to it. So I think part of the mix will be, in some areas, some permanent forest sinks. And it may open us up to some diversification of income around, say, m\u0101nuka honey and the like, so it\u2019s a different way to skin the cat, I guess. But those investors that are looking to get into that space have expressed some concern that there\u2019s a wee bit of lack of flexibility where they\u2019ve, maybe, taken out existing plantation forestry, that they\u2019re looking to maybe not incur the liability there if they can plant somewhere else, and I\u2019d be just interested in the Minister\u2019s thinking around that. Is there merit in that suggestion, and getting a bit more of his thinking. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac7229e8f2f94ccdbfd6da70db6f11bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac7229e8f2f94ccdbfd6da70db6f11bb\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, look, the previous member who was just speaking must have been reading my mind, because that\u2019s, essentially, the subject that I wanted to raise with the Minister, and that\u2019s the general principle of forestry offsets. Mark Patterson has raised, I think, a reasonable point in that at select committee, when we were discussing offsets and forestry offsets more generally\u2014and there\u2019s quite a lot in this bill relating to what\u2019s affectionately referred to as P90 offsetting land\u2014there was some very genuine concern raised by some of the carbon farming organisations, as Mark Patterson has raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m keen to tease out from the Minister just why he\u2019s taken a policy position not to explore, at this point in time, the proposal put to the select committee, for instance, by New Zealand Carbon Farming Group, who made some pretty generous offers in terms of being able to use finance that had been generated through offset funding, for instance, when a company\u2014just for an example, maybe Air New Zealand. If the Minister was to tick the right box when he purchases his Air New Zealand ticket, he can claim or pay an offset fee. Those offset fees get collected somewhere and eventually get used to plant a tree somewhere. That\u2019s, essentially, where organisations, such as Mark Patterson has been talking about, derive their income stream.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo they\u2019re not interested in a plantation forest. They\u2019re interested in using that offset money that has been raised. One could argue about the merits of raising funds like that and the potential for, essentially, trying to buy your way out of sin in terms of carbon emissions, but the situation exists where those funds are available, and companies like the New Zealand Carbon Farming group and others have funds to invest, they want to plant native trees, primarily, on land that is not productive pastoral land\u2014on, frankly, what we would call pretty scrubby, maybe stewardship-type land; non-productive land. I think that just on the face of it, if nothing else, there is some merit in the proposals that they have put forward. Yet, in this bill, there is no provision for that type of modelling to occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe second point I just want to raise while I\u2019m on my feet at this point relates to the general principle of offsetting. Really, if there\u2019s a matter in this legislation that is not comprehensively addressed, it is that matter. I\u2019d like to have an indication of how the Minister sees that debate and that policy discussion being brought to light, particularly in terms of what I thought was a very thoughtful and good and well-considered report released in March of last year by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, the Hon\u2014I think he might be even the Rt Hon Simon Upton. He argues in that document at some length that, essentially, the current approach of reducing climate change for countries like New Zealand relies very heavily on the planting of trees. But if you follow that logic to its natural conclusion, without change to emissions creations, sooner or later you run out of land to plant trees on no matter how big the landmass is. So that\u2019s not a long-term, sustainable proposition in terms of, eventually, sending the right messages about a transition to a low-carbon economy over a time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIn fact, Simon Upton argues that by allowing offsets in the way that we do in this legislation, arguably we are actually delaying the kind of change that the Minister\u2019s looking for. When we were talking before the dinner break about the high-emitting industries and the industrial allocations, that argument can be extended to other emitters who find by simply offering their customers or paying themselves for offsets, they don\u2019t make a change but go to bed at night feeling they\u2019ve done good because a nice native tree has been planted somewhere in New Zealand. So I\u2019m interested to hear the Minister\u2019s views on that in relation to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa24b3ffffe648ff8efb3c0378afd253\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa24b3ffffe648ff8efb3c0378afd253\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. There\u2019s a lot between those two questions, and so I\u2019ll just try to unpick it as best I can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EFirstly, just to complicate matters even further, there are two types of offsetting. One is where you\u2014which is I think what the Hon Scott Simpson was referring to\u2014buy an offset in the form of forestry. There\u2019s also something called offset forestry, which is where you have an existing forest in one part of the country, and you plant up another, and then you cut down the other forest. So it\u2019s about flexibility in land use. The idea is that if I want to cut down this forest over here permanently and convert it to, say, dairy, or some other land use, then in order to avoid the liability of losing that forest I have to plant up another. So the new forest is the offset against the one that I\u2019ve cut down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENZ Carbon Farming\u2019s proposal was actually related to that second type. One of the features of this bill is that we\u2019re changing the nature of how we account for forestry. So the member will be familiar during the select committee that historically we\u2019ve used a sort of sawtooth accounting. So you acquire units up to a certain point, you cut your forest down, you surrender the obligation, and then repeat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re moving towards is an averaging system. So you accumulate up to the average life of the forest and then you, basically, stick with that average over time, even if you cut down and replant that forest over time. That\u2019s one of the ways of making the system simpler for smallhold forests to participate in the scheme, because they don\u2019t have to worry about this constant acquisition and obligation system there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EHowever, in moving between those two systems, it creates a discrepancy which ends up with a liability on the Crown\u2019s books, which we\u2019ve got to settle up in the year 2022, between those two systems. So the issue that NZ Carbon Farming are saying is, \u201CWell, we\u2019ve got these pre-existing forests. We\u2019d like to be able to move them to another part of the country, and in so doing we can take advantage of the sort of financial income that would enable us to then scale up even more.\u201D which on the face of it, sounds good. However, there are some complications to that, one of which is it creates a significant liability on the Crown\u2019s books and, in Treasury\u2019s view, would result in a transfer of several hundred million dollars from Treasury to that company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo whilst the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022559ca08c13294f4bb5af5662a5cae0c3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: How much please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6ef9bbf5ec846d59a2a0491a48d20f6\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Several hundred million dollars, from Treasury to that company. Whilst the issues that they\u2019re pointing at are worth exploring, given the need to make sure that we consider all of the unintended consequences, we do need to drill into the issue of the liability on the Crown\u2019s books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EWe need to test some of the other issues that we were exploring earlier about what it would mean in terms of afforestation in areas where it may be inappropriate for that to occur. The view that we took was now is not the time to introduce that at this point in the legislation. As has been pointed out a number of times, this is five years\u2019 work, with multiple rounds of consultation, huge amounts of analysis, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo this change that\u2019s been proposed is simply too significant to introduce at this stage without a similar level of analysis and consideration. What we have said is that we will explore it. Actually, this was a policy decision that we made sort of right before we started drafting\u2014that we would come back in 2021 looking at organisations like that and to explore that. So that\u2019s on one side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EOn the other side, of course, we\u2019ve got\u2014in particular beef and lamb and others in the drystock who are concerned that\u2014about what I was saying, a significant move like that could lead to loss of productive land in areas where it\u2019s inappropriate, or would have an untoward effect on rural economies and communities and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThere were some proposals there as well for limiting the ability of the other type of forestry offset, which is the ability to use offsets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c7b445e25a7458c9721507a66b88b68\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s kicked to the commission though isn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207ff80b521184af49694e3b0cde2c5ae\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Those two things are kind of countervailing forces, and both of them have significant sets of implications, some of which I\u2019ve canvassed quite a lot already. So we do have a work programme. It is some regret to me that once we have passed this bill, it will not be the final chapter of the emissions trading scheme, that there is therefore further work to be done. And we will come back again, possibly with a future amendment based on exploration of those two sets of factors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI just want to come back to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022813bb400181e47f085ee57bf5c8305bf\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the climate equivalent of RMA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a62af35bef0488fb14605099c57c761\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, a little bit! Ha, ha! God, I hope it\u2019s not like the Resource Management Act. I do want to come back to the point that he made\u2014this sort of high-level point, though, about the use of forestry emissions offsets to kind of buy your way out of sin. Now, part of the issue here, of course, is that the price has been artificially low. And one of the reasons why organisations choose to buy forestry offsets for their emissions, rather than invest in new technologies that have a lower emissions profile themselves, is because it\u2019s been cheaper to buy forestry offsets than it has been to change the technologies and their manufacturing processes, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo there is a point\u2014and this is kind of counterintuitive\u2014at which if the price is allowed to float and operate like a true market, it actually becomes cheaper to invest in the new technology than it does to buy a forestry offset. So, different technologies kick in at different prices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EOne of the pieces of advice that we\u2019ve received is that some of the low-grade industrial heat for things like milk drying units, for example, become quite feasible at about $40 a tonne. Whilst you might say, well, at 40 bucks a tonne, you\u2019re talking about carpeting the country in trees. Actually, it becomes more feasible for Fonterra and other users of that kind of heat in their industrial process to swap out their existing technology for new technology. That is actually how the scheme is supposed to work. The problem is that because we\u2019ve had this artificially low price cap, Fonterra\u2019s never been allowed to get to that point, so they\u2019ve gone for forestry offsets instead. I know that seems counterintuitive, but that is actually how the programme is supposed to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s another component to that as well, which is that organisations are already looking at\u2014they\u2019re starting to forward-price decisions. So even whilst the price is still comparatively low at $25 a tonne, they\u2019re starting to make investment decisions on the basis that the price will be eventually $40 or $50 or higher. They\u2019re not quite sure when that will occur but the point is, if you\u2019re having to buy a new plant, that plant\u2019s going to have 30 or 40 years in its asset life and at some point during that 30- or 40-year period, you know that the price will be above $40 a tonne\u2014and probably sooner rather than later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ETherefore, if you buy, you know, a fossil fuel - powered replacement now, then you\u2019re actually going to be stuck with a really expensive liability within, say, 10 or 15 years. And therefore, it makes more sense to invest in the new plant, even at $25, in the knowledge that, you know, that\u2019s not always going to be the case. An example of this was Synlait, who invested in an electrode boiler in their plant down in Canterbury. At 25 bucks a tonne that makes no sense at all. But it was a new boiler and they know that that\u2019s going to be in place for quite some time and so it makes very good economic sense within the life of that asset. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESimilarly, Ports of Auckland made a choice. One of their tugboats had come to the end of its life. They have a commitment to be carbon neutral by 2030. So the next tugboat they buy, which will have a life of about 40 years, 30 years of its service will be after the point at which they\u2019re supposed to be carbon neutral. Therefore, they had to buy a zero-emission tug. Now, it turns out that no one in the world makes zero-emission tugs in that weight class. So they had to go looking for a manufacturer. That drove the price up to twice what it would be for an off-the-shelf diesel-powered tug. But, you know, if you take the full life-cycle cost of it, it actually ends up saving them over $2 million, both in the operations and the capital expenditure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo that is one of the unintended consequences of artificially holding the price low because there\u2019s an economic crisis on that has really long-term consequences, which is that, you know, organisations don\u2019t have that predictability to be able to make decisions on that basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022 data-id=\u002236f14325fd13451699d52d9ae0c2a25b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e6b7aaa-8157-4d5e-9940-1bdbcd61ae95\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236f14325fd13451699d52d9ae0c2a25b\u0022\u003EALASTAIR SCOTT (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. The Minister mentioned a document that explained\u2014and it seemed an official document\u2014the couple of hundred million dollars that it was going to cost the Crown and be transferred to another party, and I\u2019d just like him, if he could, to table that document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022643f50219ce146508d1ea1af30ccf7ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022643f50219ce146508d1ea1af30ccf7ff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister was quoting from an official document, then he will table it. He may wish to voluntarily do that at some time. He\u2019s not required to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ade1c3b6cb8c43a6af1a6f5d9f150109\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229d00fe799274f8b82a387eef937f8f5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014unless he was quoting from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022cde4ee5a6a3c41cc9fc7123246bd8361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cde4ee5a6a3c41cc9fc7123246bd8361\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E No, I wasn\u2019t quoting from a specific document. But I\u2019d be happy to go hunting for any advice that we\u2019ve received. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddd7b89a0c704f0d9470ad6e2e620fd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddd7b89a0c704f0d9470ad6e2e620fd4\u0022\u003EKIRITAPU ALLAN (Assistant Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00222a5817841d3048a7b0831d9c9cd3e485\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a5817841d3048a7b0831d9c9cd3e485\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call Hamish Walker, could I just remind the committee of the new rules that we\u2019re trialling: the removal of the four five-minute-limit speeches in order to try and have more of a conversation with the Minister. So the five-minute speaking time is not a target. You\u2019re more than entitled to make your point or your question, and resume your seat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022 data-id=\u0022d372aeb22efd449aaca8cbd39840e7f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d372aeb22efd449aaca8cbd39840e7f4\u0022\u003EHAMISH WALKER (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much\u2014I\u2019ll make it nice and succinct. I just want to ask the Minister\u2014he made some comments in his previous speech around the removal of the cap and in terms of New Zealand Carbon Farming. So, Minister, my question is: you remove the cap, the carbon price will rise, this will result in more conversions of farms into forestry\u2014there\u2019s obviously that incentive there. It will be more profitable land use because of the stilted price mechanism\u2014when you\u2019ve got all the analysis which indicates that, because of that cap, because of that price rising, the fossil fuel emitters would rather offset their emissions rather than reduce them because of that. So, Minister, if you could please answer this. What protection have you got in place for those rural communities with the incentive of that increased carbon price? What protection have you got in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea78feac9fb04a978f4f6535932a6667\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea78feac9fb04a978f4f6535932a6667\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll be repeating something I said at the first part of the committee stage, but just to correct you, what I\u2019m saying is, actually, that if you allow the market to operate as it is supposed to do and the price does rise, then it is counterintuitive that, yes, there will be some more afforestation, but also it becomes more economic for polluting firms to change the technology than it does to do offset forestry, right? So let\u2019s, hypothetically, say that the carbon price rose to $50, which is the complete upper limit that we\u2019re putting in, and that if it went up to there, what that is saying is that it would cost you $50 to plant forests but only $40 to change your technology if you\u2019re an industrial process heat user, right? So it\u2019s $10 cheaper per tonne to swap out your technology than it is to plant forests. So then, of course, what happens is people change their technology, demand for units then falls, and so the price comes down a bit. So you get a sort of equilibrium. That is what I meant by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EBut in response to the second part of his question, you\u2019re asking about protections around, I guess, aggressive afforestation. This was a debate that was had last year when we passed the zero carbon bill, when the Opposition got a provision included in the zero carbon bill that there is a mandatory consideration that the commission must include\u2014and then the Government must also include in their response to the commission\u2019s advice about the effects of afforestation on rural communities and economies. It\u2019s one of several things that they have to consider, and, obviously, they need to come to a balance of those considerations, but that is written into the legislation and the zero carbon bill. Because it is an amendment to the primary Act, and this is also an amendment to the primary Act, that consideration applies to everything in this bill. There are also other protections, but that is written in here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022263d32a4da414ca387a46b0e4e6e2b76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022263d32a4da414ca387a46b0e4e6e2b76\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Just following on from that, and I noted in your speech yesterday, Minister Shaw, you said the same thing about the commission having to consider. What tests or thresholds would that consideration entail? You know, at what point would the commission consider that the potential implications of land use change are significant enough for it to act? Have you set any guidelines for them, and how would you set those guidelines? And, you know, is it 10 percent of a region or is it going to be 10 percent of the income from a region? Can you give us some clarity around that, because just saying \u201CConsider the implications.\u201D doesn\u2019t really give us much comfort? We need to know what the tests they will be applying would be and the threshold they would use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe other thing is it would be good to get some clarity around that independent audit process you\u2019re talking about with the primary sector deal. My understanding is that it goes to the commission, and the commission then makes a recommendation to the Minister. So you seem to be implying that there is an independent audit process in there. Now, whether that\u2019s because you consider the commission to be an independent body, and their decision, you\u2019re saying, is an independent audit, or what normally would be considered an independent audit would be a third-party organisation, other than the commission or the Minister, that would be then independently auditing what has happened\u2014so I need clarity around that because I feel your definition of the commission\u2019s interpretation will be an independent audit. That\u2019s the way I\u2019m taking it, and I\u2019m not sure if that\u2019s quite what people would consider an independent audit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe third thing is that you made a couple of comments just before the dinner break around farmers haven\u2019t been having to pay and having preferential treatment up to now. I just wanted you to give some clarity around the industrial allocations. My understanding was that the dairy industry didn\u2019t get any industrial allocation, unlike other big industries in New Zealand\u2014so like New Zealand Steel and all those who\u2019ve had an industrial allocation for 10 or 15 years, or whatever the time period has been, whereas the dairy industry, in its processing side, has actually been paying during that period of time. So it\u2019s unfair now to say, \u201CWell, hey, they\u2019ve had preferential treatment, they haven\u2019t actually been involved.\u201D, when, in fact, the only major manufacturing industry in New Zealand to have been paying for the last decade is the New Zealand dairy industry. That\u2019s my understanding of it. Now, if they were getting those industrial allocations, that\u2019s news to me, but I\u2019m pretty sure that they were excluded from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019d be great to get the Minister to explain those three questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00222490ae252b944d53b8ad4310b899d936\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222490ae252b944d53b8ad4310b899d936\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Just while the Minister for Climate Change is talking to his officials to seek some advice, I thought it\u2019s worth taking a call. Can I acknowledge the Minister in the chair this evening\u2014normally a little bit closer, on the front table there, but I understand the situation that we find ourselves in. The Parliament is sitting under COVID-19 response conditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the Minister and the way that he\u2019s been open in answering our questions. Madam Chair, you covered that off nicely before, saying that we\u2019re using this opportunity to glean some information, and those that are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022028c0a57529344a5abb854e4e6bcab87\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s very useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223d53a46df8c417db4b848d68d69459b\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it has been useful, Mr Simpson\u2014listening will also be, I think, well engaged in the question and answer session that we\u2019re having this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EJust following on from the Hon David Bennett, who posed some very good questions, I\u2019m quite keen to drill a little bit deeper into this impact that the commission\u2019s going to have a look at, to do with afforestation in the future. We know that it is a live issue in certain rural provincial parts of New Zealand right now. We\u2019re seeing large chunks of land, in fact, in Stuart Nash\u2019s electorate, which he may visit, up into the Wairoa District, occasionally. Mayor Little has, no doubt, been on the phone to the local MP, saying how concerned he is about losing jobs in that community because of afforestation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m keen to understand what the parameters are that the Minister is going to set for the commission to delve into the detail to try and understand. Is it when the rugby clubs close down and the local primary school\u2019s gone as a result of afforestation? That\u2019s what we are most concerned about at the moment, so it\u2019d be really good to try and set the record straight there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EAnother question that I have is that the Minister indicated that we\u2019re heading very quickly into a $35 a tonne carbon price for the next year or so, and we know that it\u2019s been bouncing around at $20, $25. We know it\u2019s softened a bit because of COVID-19, and I think everyone gets that point. I\u2019m keen to understand from you\u2014I think the fuel price at the moment as part of that is about 4c. I\u2019m hearing that it could be 9c or 10c a litre as a result of going to $35 a tonne. [Interruption] Sorry? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da494ae120dc423cb6dfe5ea9ecdb1b5\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Never mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad8782ddf8d441008c83a68a4a2f00f3\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: OK. So I\u2019d appreciate you putting my mind to rest that it is not going to be that high\u2014that\u2019s the indication I just got from you then. It\u2019d be good to hear some detail on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe other point is the costs on food production as a result, potentially, of going to a processor levy. At the moment we\u2019ve got the agreement between the primary sector leaders out there trying to sell that to rural communities, for farmers to get on board with technology, and the Government\u2019s contribution to supporting farm plans and more technology in the lab and on farm and all of those sorts of things\u2014so that\u2019s a tick from me. But if, for some reason, in a couple of years the Minister for Climate Change and the Minister of Agriculture deem, when they get advice from the commission, that this isn\u2019t going fast enough, then the fear that I have is that those Ministers can just say, \u201CWell, we\u2019re now heading to a processor level.\u201D, and that will mean that all of the good work that\u2019s currently happening on farm will just go down the drain, because a processor level emissions rate or tax\u2014I\u2019m going to call it\u2014is not going to change behaviour. My farm here versus the neighbour\u2019s farm\u2014we could be doing things completely different in terms of managing emissions, and to have a blunt instrument as a processor tax is not going to change behaviour inside the farm gate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m very curious to know at that trigger point of I think it\u2019s 2022, when the Ministers will be colluding, talking to the commission about it\u2014at what point is it that Ministers are satisfied that the agriculture industry is heading in the right direction, and they\u2019re not going to make a knee-jerk reaction and go to a processor levy/tax, which is ultimately going to mean we\u2019re less competitive in the international market place? That is really important right now, when you think about farmers and agriculture processors really dragging the plough through this COVID response. They\u2019re the big part of the New Zealand economy that doesn\u2019t get well acknowledged. When tourism is on its knees, people look to the primary sector and say, \u201CThank you for what you\u2019re doing.\u201D I\u2019d hate for the election to come and go, and for the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister for Climate Change from, potentially, a left-leaning Government to get together and say, \u201CWell, farmers haven\u2019t done enough. We\u2019re now heading to the crude pricing mechanism.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d really appreciate the Minister answering my concerns and questions. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022 data-id=\u0022c66a683b633b42639fcb69b9941600a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c66a683b633b42639fcb69b9941600a3\u0022\u003EHAMISH WALKER (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thanks very much, and I just thank the Minister for Climate Change for his previous answers. My question\u2019s reasonably specific, and it\u2019s to do with the T\u012Bwai aluminium smelter. Anyone who hasn\u2019t been there needs to go there for a visit. It\u2019s a wonderful place. My question\u2019s really around the industrial allocation phase-down, mainly from 2030, and what the Minister plans to do in terms of carbon leakage. So industries here that are taxed to the hilt\u2014where they see it\u2019s no longer feasible to continue, that industry will, basically, just go offshore, and someone offshore will produce it, often, the majority of times, through a much higher emission rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003ESo my question\u2019s really around the industrial allocation phase-down and what he\u2019s going to do to stop that carbon leakage. Industries that produce, for example, the cleanest, purest form of aluminium in the world\u2014that comes from T\u012Bwai. It supports around about 1,000 direct jobs in Southland. It\u2019s been in place for a number of years. It\u2019s a wonderful organisation. So why would we want to risk that wonderful company going overseas\u2014all those jobs down the drain? We already produce the cleanest, best aluminium in the world. It often goes into items like this phone here and an Apple iPhone. Not many people know that. So my question\u2019s really around: what\u2019s he going to do stopping industries like that going offshore, which will produce a lot more emissions in total?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6f6ffc5c7114557950256ad13da3368\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6f6ffc5c7114557950256ad13da3368\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So I just want to mention that many of the dozen or so questions there were asked and answered in the session before the dinner break. But at the risk of repeating myself, I will do those members the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecd9d0d1bf894571b505041310c56614\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Go for a quick buzz around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaf8d1d82aa34a67b82b73a8f516c188\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: You should know by now, Mr Guy, that there is no such thing as a quick buzz around when it comes to the emissions trading scheme. So let me just kind of cover a number of the points that were raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo Mr Bennett asked me about what \u201Cconsideration\u201D means. That\u2019s contained in the zero carbon bill; that\u2019s not part of this piece of legislation. It was something that was thoroughly canvassed with the now leader of the National Party at the time when we were negotiating what that piece of legislation would look like. So it\u2019s not contained in the legislation, but remember, we have common law in this country, and if someone feels that the commission or the Government have not paid adequate consideration of those matters, they can ask for a judicial review. So it will emerge over time what those things look like, but we have a fairly well-established tradition in this country. You\u2019ve got mandatory considerations in all sorts of legislation covering many different provisions; we\u2019ve got a pretty good idea of what that looks like. Part of that includes consulting with affected communities in sectors and so on and so forth. So I don\u2019t think that we need to go any further than we have in any other piece of legislation where we have mandatory considerations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EOne of the questions that the Hon David Bennett raised was around whether dairy companies are already in the emissions trading scheme and whether they receive free units in the industrial allocation system. The point that I was making before was that agricultural emissions in the form of biogenic methane and nitrous oxide are not part of the emissions trading scheme; so industrial users like Fonterra\u2014which was the point that you raised\u2014are because that\u2019s carbon dioxide, so it\u2019s an industrial gas and is covered by the emissions trading scheme. But my point was that in the sector, in terms of the primary production component, those gases are not included in the emissions trading scheme\u2014only carbon dioxide and a handful of other minor gases are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s also correct that Fonterra and other processors don\u2019t receive an industrial allocation under that system for milk drying. I wasn\u2019t around at the time when someone dreamt up the industrial allocation system, and we are taking a look at that whole industrial allocation system because of the various inconsistencies that have arisen over the course of the last 10, 12 years. But at the time that the decisions were made about who qualified for an industrial allocation and who didn\u2019t, the process of milk drying didn\u2019t meet the threshold of emissions intensive and trade exposed. So there was a whole process by which they looked at every form of industrial use and so on. Whey and lactose do\u2014so there is an industrial allocation for that. Tomato growing does. So those are contained in terms of industrial allocation, but he\u2019s correct that milk drying is not. And that\u2019s probably a good thing, because milk drying is one of those things where it is low-grade heat, so it is actually quite an easily substitutable at a reasonably economic price technology. So if you subsidised it and you said that they didn\u2019t have to face those allocations, then there would be absolutely no incentive for them to shift out of coal or gas or fossil fuels into alternatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe next question was around the milestones in He Waka Eke Noa\u2014what the audit processes are. So it took us quite a long time to work through the various milestones that need to be reached in the whole five-year process of that with the sector. So quite a lot of effort was sort of put in to make sure that for those milestones it is reasonably clear about whether or not thresholds have been met. I know that the member does have a background in audit, so it\u2019s not strictly the same, but the whole point of the Climate Change Commission is that it is an independent third party, removed from Ministers to the point that there is even a nominating committee in order to put people on to the commission; again, to just provide yet more arm\u2019s length.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EIn terms of costs on production, I think we canvassed that pretty well before the dinner break. It\u2019s sort of between, I think it was 1c a litre for milk and 3c a kilo for red meat\u2014just to respond to that point. There was a question which wasn\u2019t asked before about processor-level obligations versus farm-level obligations. I will just make this point: there were actually dairy sector organisations that were arguing for a processor-level obligation, because if you\u2019re one of those processors and you\u2019ve got\u2014I don\u2019t know\u201425, 100 farms in your system, whilst you the organisation, the processor, would be the point of obligation, you\u2019d actually be able to work with all of those farms collectively on a response. And we all know for some farms it\u2019ll be really easy for them to bring their emissions down quite a lot; other farm systems much more difficult to bring them down. Wouldn\u2019t it make more sense to be able to say, \u201CWell, let\u2019s kind of net that out across the whole thing.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo we bought the argument that was made to us by the sector that in an ideal world it would be a farm-by-farm - level obligation, and that\u2019s why we set that whole work programme up, because it does allow individual farmers to have control over their farm system. But there is an argument for processors to be involved in that, and Fonterra and Synlait and Silver Fern Farms and you name it are all getting in on this and, actually, have made several years\u2019 worth of progress already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EFinally, there were the points around T\u012Bwai and aluminium. Again, I did canvass this before the break, but the point that I was making is that the marginal price here\u2014even if the price was to double to $50 a tonne\u2014is tiny in comparison to other fluctuations like, in the smelter\u2019s case, the transmission pricing review or, frankly, currency fluctuations, which are many orders of magnitude more significant than this. We had a whole conversation there about profit versus revenue and so on and so forth, but it is a very marginal cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe one thing I would say, as the member\u2019s brandishing his iPhone, is that Apple\u2014and this is a point that I am repeating\u2014have entered into a US$2 billion agreement with another aluminium producer to do hydrogen-based, zero emission aluminium smelting, and that makes our smelter completely uncompetitive. So what we want to do in an ideal world is onshore that technology to our smelter here in New Zealand, but we won\u2019t do that as long as there\u2019s absolutely no incentive for them to do so. We\u2019re really keen to work with them to get our hands on that technology and to bring it in, just as we are for some of the emerging\u2014steel\u2019s probably about another five, 10 years behind where aluminium is, but we\u2019re quite keen to see some of what a new hydrogen-based steel production is like for our steel mill for the same reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI think the principle here is that, actually, we\u2019ve got to take some responsibility for what it is that we\u2019re consuming. We\u2019re consuming steel; we\u2019re consuming aluminium. Wherever in the world it comes from, we do have an obligation to work out how to deal with the emissions that arise from the industrial processes that are associated with the products that we consume and rely on; and that means getting into the really thorny issues of how to measure, manage, price, and ultimately to change the technologies in those industries, and we\u2019re really keen to partner with those industries in order to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022d14ab35e25054793bbfd1015182c547d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d14ab35e25054793bbfd1015182c547d\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon James Shaw to the proposed amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 506 in his name be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003Ein clause 110(3) replace new section 127(2) with:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E(2)\tHowever,\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E(a)\tthe EPA may amend an emissions return or assessment at any time to give effect to the correction of a unique emissions factor under section 91A; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E(b)\tif the EPA is satisfied that an emissions return was fraudulent, was wilfully misleading, or deliberately omitted mention of emissions or removals in respect of which an emissions return was required to be submitted, the EPA may amend the emissions return at any time, under section 120, so as to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E(i)\tincrease the number of units required to be surrendered by the participant:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E(ii)\tdecrease the number of New Zealand units to which the participant is entitled in respect of removal activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003Ein clause 110(3), new section 127(3), replace \u201Csubsection 2(c)\u201D with \u201Csubsection (2)(b)\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003Eafter clause 223B, insert:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E223BA\tSection 127 amended (Time bar for amendment of emissions returns)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003Eafter section 127(2)(b), insert:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E(c)\tif a person submits an emissions return on receiving a notice from the EPA under section 134A(1), the period of 4 or 7 years in which the EPA may amend an emissions return under subsection (1)(a) or (b) starts from the date of submission of the emissions return.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b49fd5adc8c44237a16b10a0aae2e8ba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000565\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 506 in the name of the Hon James Shaw be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b1a6b0d2ab3a4edd90a3bbbdd3a681ca\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b99e203882fd4055bfd532f063fcf849\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 and 2, Schedules 2 to 7, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, Schedules 2 to 7, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000566\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe3485ddcced40f39d3f7f41be8f7a54\u0022\u003EMental Health and Wellbeing Commission Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225430e90cbef441418d0b0f33e55d2543\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00229ffb5efbd1ad4c3bb7980948eb1709d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ffb5efbd1ad4c3bb7980948eb1709d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we turn now to the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission Bill. I understand that this is being debated as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd003ff20983404ea564d2f669fb153f\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, Schedules 1 to 2, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00220d8962a0dc634199b5f85f54e1888ae8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d8962a0dc634199b5f85f54e1888ae8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The Health Committee recommended the bill unanimously with several suggested changes, which were supported by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215efc86a1da64e27bca914c15e4e99ce\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Put some passion into it. Come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220601ea0b73f341eaa2f6f8f486a0be49\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: This is a happy occasion, I tell the honourable member, because the bill was supported by all parties at second reading. If the majority of Parliament votes in support of the bill, it will go through, of course, to its third reading, either immediately following or on the next sitting day and, following that, to Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that\u2019s making swift progress. It is something whose time has come, and I want to thank, from the outset, the coalition partner, New Zealand First, that has supported and worked with Labour to progress the mental health commission, and also our confidence and supply partners, the Green Party. All parties are very keen to see this go through, so it\u2019s been on the agenda for this term of Government. Of course, all of these parties also were supporting the mental health inquiry, He Ara Oranga, despite the Government of the day, the prior Government, opposing that work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ENow, this has come out as one of the recommendations out of He Ara Oranga that we re-establish the Mental Health Commission after the previous National Government disestablished it. But I\u2019m really pleased that now the whole Parliament has united again behind that idea of having a mental health commission. So to respond to Mr Guy\u2019s comment, it is something worth being passionate about. It is exciting that we have a whole Parliament united to have a mental health commission in place once again. The bill establishes the commission as an independent Crown entity that will hold Government and other decision makers to account for improving mental health and wellbeing, and it will contribute to better mental health and wellbeing outcomes for people across New Zealand. I\u2019m convinced of that. It will also contribute to achieving equity for M\u0101ori and other groups that experience poor mental health and wellbeing outcomes, or poorer than the general population. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EEstablishing the new commission is widely supported beyond this Parliament. The majority of submissions to the select committee supported a new commission, and it was pleasing to hear the support for the bill during that second reading debate right here in the Chamber. So I want to acknowledge also before I end this contribution, the members of the Health Committee for their work\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c48dbc69bb5b4aabbb6e267f597525ba\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fab8672a6b841c699dc7b2fa45d2856\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and the improvements that have been made to the bill. That does include you, Mr Woodhouse. Thank you for your work on this. It was great to see a unanimous recommendation from that select committee back to the House with some changes which we have been happy to adopt. So I move that this be taken as one part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227af9e58e54c45748aa1b773fa3a8be3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s already been agreed to, so you don\u2019t need to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e75c55a92ca48b8bc92bbbe8af02047\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, just instructed by the whips\u2014making sure I\u2019m doing the right thing. I look forward to the contributions across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00228c1fd07ab0874329ac29e757c9b6363c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c1fd07ab0874329ac29e757c9b6363c\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister for that introduction. He is correct: the National Party is in support of the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission, although we do have some concerns on this side of the House. The Minister is correct: the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission came out of the recommendations of the Government\u2019s mental health inquiry, He Ara Oranga. But, equally, a concern of this side of the House is that the mental health commission will not have the authority to drive real change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EAs the Minister has stated, this is a bit Back to the Future. The previous Mental Health Commission was disestablished in 2012, and there\u2019d be many in the mental health sector who agreed with that decision, because it felt the Mental Health Commission of that day had lost its way. So, fast-forward to today, we have the Mental Health Foundation, who came out after Budget 2020 and were worried, after that Budget, that there seemed to be no resourcing and implementation plan for the recommendations of He Ara Oranga, and it was appearing to stall and drift. So my question to the Minister would be: how is he going to ensure this commission will have enough authority to drive those recommendations forward and, ultimately, drive mental health forward for New Zealanders, who do want to see a real change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022efc9d5c6137944f583dca11c6a3a2c2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efc9d5c6137944f583dca11c6a3a2c2f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Matt Doocey for his questions. He\u2019ll be aware that there\u2019s an interim mental health commission in place currently, with board members, that has been supported through the Ministry of Health. It is our intention to ensure that this commission is appropriately resourced, because we all in this Parliament want to see it succeed. In fact, there is one difference to the Mental Health Commission that the prior Government disestablished, in that this one will actually be a more independent Crown entity, and thus will have the ability to hold this and future Governments to account for their work in the mental health space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf8b7377bd384e71a87145ec1eca01bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf8b7377bd384e71a87145ec1eca01bc\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for that. Right, there is some independence, but independence will not necessarily bring the commission authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EI do want to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to my Supplementary Order Paper, where this side of the House would like to see, under clause 11, the inclusion of the line \u201Cincluding recommending targets that provide clear and specific actions to be undertaken to improve people\u2019s mental health and wellbeing\u201D. On this side of the House, we do think the mental health commission would benefit from the ability to recommend targets, to set targets, and to report to targets, because, of course, the indicative target of the inquiry was to increase access for New Zealanders from 7 percent to 20 percent. I think it would be important that the mental health commission was able to recommend those targets, to work across various Government departments, to hold them to account, and then to report back to the public that they have been able to increase access for those specifically at the mild to moderate end, who the mental health inquiry, quite rightly, pointed out were not able to access mental health services. I would be interested to know from the Minister why there is no ability for the commission to be able to recommend targets and report on targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00221e165d2a47864a929f1512b49138f05b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e165d2a47864a929f1512b49138f05b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E As part of its assessment of effectiveness, efficiency, and adequacy of approaches to mental health and wellbeing under clause 11(1)(c), the commission will absolutely be able to consider all recommended targets if it thinks that is what the commission should be doing. If it believes that that is helpful to the Government\u2019s progress, or to assessing the Government\u2019s progress, it\u2019s free to do that. Nothing in the bill precludes the commission from recommending targets if it determines that that\u2019s an appropriate approach. The commission will be able to make informed judgments based on evidence; changing the legislation is not necessary to give effect to what the member is suggesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI think we probably will agree that if that\u2019s something that proves to be useful, we would encourage the commission to do that. But I think it\u2019s important that the commission has the flexibility to comment on what it thinks needs to be done, that we preserve that independence, and I don\u2019t want the commission locked into specific targets or specific assessments that it has to adhere to, set by this Parliament. I think it\u2019s up to the commission to decide how it wants to approach this issue. It has been established as an independent entity, as we have already canvassed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbb8be91fe67414289f40119715be5d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbb8be91fe67414289f40119715be5d9\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just picking up on that last point that the Minister of Health said, there was a slightly circular argument about that, because it\u2019s not the commission\u2019s responsibility to adhere to the targets but the health sector\u2019s. I heard the Minister say that it would be problematic in some way to bind the commission to either do or not do something. Well, I think that\u2019s flawed logic. If, as he says, the commission is free to set targets, then why not build that in as part of the functions under clause 11? I very strongly support Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 509 in Mr Doocey\u2019s name, and, indeed, I\u2019ve got a bill in the members\u2019 bill ballot to do more or less the sorts of things that this proposes, right across the health sector. And, indeed, it\u2019s modelled on the very language that the Prime Minister herself used in the bill that was passed with child poverty reduction targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI think we\u2019ve seen ample evidence in the health sector in the last 2\u00BD years about why the absence of clear expectations for service delivery leads to drift. The Minister, in his opening remarks, talked about some kind of change of heart that the National Party might have had in respect to the Mental Health Commission. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s what\u2019s happened, because I will have no time and no truck with a commission that acts in most respects more like a Monday morning quarterback, sitting on the sidelines of the mental health sector, making comments about what\u2019s going on without any real ability to influence the direction that the sector is going in. I think we\u2019re already seeing the same sort of drift, with the lack of delivery, from the mental health report, the Paterson report, that was, I think, so important in actually setting a broad direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ELots of hope and money, but no actual detailed plan for the how and the who and the where and the when, is exactly the sort of thing that Mr Doocey\u2019s SOP will actually require and encourage the commission to do. So I want the Minister to think very carefully, particularly about the changes in SOP 509 to clause 11, because we can say anything we like about what the intent of the commission is; it\u2019s the black letter law that will guide their behaviour, and I think we have a unique opportunity right now to say this is important to us. Bringing clarity to what is expected in the sector, and setting clear targets and specific actions to deliver improvements of mental health, is going to be a fundamental ingredient in the success of this commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00229f20cfc32b2a42f184ea235e81ee8f64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f20cfc32b2a42f184ea235e81ee8f64\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E To respond to the points raised by the Hon Michael Woodhouse, the challenge, of course, with having targets is that, in this particular context, He Ara Oranga was much more focused on prevention and promotion of wellbeing. It may be that a commission would consider an approach around access targets or other targets too focused on a treatment or illness approach rather than a wellbeing or prevention approach. I think it should be free, as an organisation, as an independent entity, to choose how it sets up its measures of success across the system. So that\u2019s what permitted. As I\u2019ve mentioned before, there\u2019s nothing to stop it setting up targets if it thinks that\u2019s the right thing to do to hold a Government of the day to account. Indeed, I think it would be anticipated that if the Government of the day set itself targets, the commission would be there to judge the success of the Government of the day in achieving those particular targets it had set itself. That would be a reasonable role to assume the commission might fulfil as an independent monitor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c812f0f708324d1fa20ada0fc3c82456\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c812f0f708324d1fa20ada0fc3c82456\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that would be absolutely fine, except the Minister of Health has done an 180 degree turn-around in respect of the setting of targets, particularly in mental health. As shadow Minister in 2017, he called on the Government and the Minister of Health to set a suicide reduction target and proposed a 20 percent reduction in suicidality in New Zealand. Indeed, he forced Dr Coleman, basically, to match him. It was like a mental health telethon on the campaign trail. The moment the Minister gets to office: oh no, that\u2019s a bit hard. The narrative was one death is one too many, and that I agree with; I\u2019m not doubting that. But we need to set off on a journey of reduction in self-harm and suicidality in this country, that will not be achieved if we aren\u2019t very clear about that as the goal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, broadly, we all agree that that\u2019s the case, but, in order to be able to say, \u201CWell, let\u2019s take the first steps in that.\u201D, we set the target, we understand the plan, and we understand where the risk is. Whether it\u2019s in rural communities\u2014we just had a sharp spike in poor mental health outcomes and suicidality\u2014whether it\u2019s our youth, whether it\u2019s M\u0101ori and Pasifika, who all have higher rates of suicidality than the general population, then that highlights those things for the commission to be able to say, \u201COK, sector. This is where you should be looking. Good looks like a reduction in these areas and specific actions being taken to improve the mental wellbeing of the people in those most vulnerable groups.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe Minister can, sure, say, \u201CWell, that can happen at any time.\u201D The fact is he leads. He leads the discourse and the thinking around this, and he pivoted on that. The moment he had the opportunity to set a target, he equivocated. He stepped back from that. Actually, I think that strengthens the case for the commission to be able to be more of a watchdog than a poodle and say, \u201CYou know what: this Government and its agencies should be heading in this direction.\u201D That\u2019s why putting it into the law is going to be so important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00221606ddd74fff4b08af521cd29b0096db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221606ddd74fff4b08af521cd29b0096db\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E At the risk of getting into the debate about what targets should be and so on, as the member has, I would say that the interim mental health commission is precisely tasked with ensuring that the Government is doing the things it said it would do in terms of rolling out a programme of increased access.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBut the Government has chosen to put a record amount into mental health, $1.9 billion. Included in that $1.9 billion is half a billion dollars that is focused on widening accessibility to mental health. It is the very job of the interim mental health commission, and in a similar way I\u2019d imagine a permanent mental health commission to hold the Government of the day to account for the tasks it set itself for delivery of those particular goals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWhat those goals might be is, indeed, a matter for debate. I don\u2019t agree with the way the member has characterised my previous views or positions. I don\u2019t want to get too far in to that. But I fundamentally think the important thing here is that the commission has the independence to, if it chooses, set some goals or things it\u2019s going to hold the Government to account on, or to hold the Government to account on, in an independent way, the tasks it set itself. It\u2019s up to the commission, and the bill is entirely permissive, in that regard. We seem to be having the same conversation backwards and forwards, so I\u2019ll leave it there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022e80c0f0018324a94921d2f9316a8ae02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e80c0f0018324a94921d2f9316a8ae02\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Well, just to carry on where the Minister left off, I think the Opposition and the Minister going back and forth, in fact, experientially highlights the argument we\u2019re making, because if there is no clarity on who sets the targets, then can the commission and the Government just have that circular discussion that gets nowhere? Then we end up with the problem we had with the last commission where people felt it had lost its way because it had no authority to make a difference. So if the Minister is saying, \u201CWell, we don\u2019t need targets in this legislation because the Government can set targets.\u201D, what happens then, when the Government chooses not to set targets? Then how can the commission hold the Government to account? The whole point here is, by setting a target, you become accountable, and then the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission will have authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we\u2019re concerned that we will have a commission set up, and then no one will listen to it. So how is this commission, if it\u2019s not having targets, going to have teeth to make a difference, because there wouldn\u2019t be one member in this House who hasn\u2019t been moved by the stories they\u2019ve heard of their constituents impacted by mental health themselves, their family, and their work colleagues. We\u2019ve all heard the call in the 52nd Parliament that we need to get on and work together to make a difference. Now, the Opposition agrees with that, but if the Minister could just clarify, then: whose role is it to make targets: the Government or the commission? How do we end up not getting in this circular discussion that we are tonight where both the Government and the commission can\u2019t hold each other to account?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00229bafe78f257b4fe395fab1b561edbbf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bafe78f257b4fe395fab1b561edbbf4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I mean, the member asks good questions here. The point I would make is that the commission\u2019s job will be to hold Governments to account for their delivery of mental health services, for the improvement in mental wellbeing across society, and so on, whatever that looks like. So, if the Government, as some Governments have chosen to do, sets narrow\u2014I would argue, pointless and/or misleading\u2014targets for themselves that they think they can achieve politically but actually make no meaningful difference to people\u2019s wellbeing, the commission can choose to observe them or ignore them, or it can set out real measures of progress, consult experts, consult the consumers in the sector who use the service, and make its own judgment about whether a Government is making progress or not. So I don\u2019t see that the authority should sit with the Government about what the right targets to measure are or aren\u2019t. I think that should sit with an independent commission that can choose to consult with those who are actually using the services, consult with experts, look at the international evidence, and form a view on whether Governments are doing the right thing by their people in terms of mental health or not, regardless of whether the Government of the day chooses some convenient political targets that it might meet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022a639271782d14039a0adeb4b9727d976\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a639271782d14039a0adeb4b9727d976\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for that answer. Then, if he agrees that the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission should be able to set targets, where in the legislation does it give the authority to set targets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00221324422438f347b8a04019602d4c2a05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221324422438f347b8a04019602d4c2a05\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I have covered this point previously, but I\u2019ll cover it again. As part of its assessment of effectiveness, efficiency, and adequacy of approaches to mental health and wellbeing, under clause 11(1)(c), the commission will absolutely be able to consider or recommend targets if that is what the commission thinks the Government should be doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00227730d33427874f6db81200bf79ce673f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227730d33427874f6db81200bf79ce673f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Matt Doocey\u2019s amendments to clauses 8 and 11, set out on Supplementary Order Paper\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285afb7799f2145e8a8baa5dcf2364ff6\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022824967560a5644c58c8951fa7997fcb9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014509, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4ea1edf47d943c094525aefa1efe245\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, I\u2019m a bit confused. Are we carrying on with our calls?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1cdeeb9baac451da4f15baee7634b84\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I didn\u2019t hear anyone take a call, so I started putting the vote. [Interruption] Sorry, you didn\u2019t seek a call, so I didn\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022729888e64d1c4af9a787c7749132539a\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I was a bit perplexed. I didn\u2019t realise that we were\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0ba4ce57234f788ac430b75264428a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t call people who don\u2019t seek a call, as a general rule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298db6f7bccec443ea20fb228052fc6b2\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t realise we were near the end of the debate. I thought we would be at the start of it, and I thought there\u2019d be some leniency for the Minister sitting down and the Opposition members collecting their thoughts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa2545cd42db4719baf6c4c017dd0dfd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Doocey, do you have a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d87d5b57d0f4adf9af9e9c5aabb9f56\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: No. I\u2019m seeking a call, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0c01ed02d6c4ee8a9ba1ffcee65647e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I had already started taking the vote. You could urge for my reconsideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261b832fceed74868b9f76a1bb467bd5b\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Speaker\u2019s ruling 63/3 says the member may seek a call before the Chair takes the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af7cd36d5cf74999b4a360f666a53dbe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d already started it\u2014I\u2019d already started taking the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b6070cdcfcb4652845b7664757df51c\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. But Speaker\u2019s ruling 63/3 says that the Chair would need to finish the vote, and the member can seek a call before it\u2019s finished.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf6db0947c3249e1bfdb41a1daa0ef96\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just ask the member to resume his seat. Mr Doocey, if you want to be called, you have to stand and seek a call. So if Mr Doocey wants to try that now\u2014Mr Doocey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u002242079bfcbff9420f8714128d7936f0ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242079bfcbff9420f8714128d7936f0ab\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much. So it\u2019s fair to say the Minister has been very clear tonight that he does not want the word \u201Ctargets\u201D explicitly mentioned in the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission Bill, and one can only, well, assume why that might be. That might be also to do with when the Opposition does ask how the Government is tracking on increasing the access target from 7 percent to 20 percent and doesn\u2019t get an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe next part I want to move on to on my Supplementary Order Paper is looking at the focus of the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission on research. This side of the House, under functions of commissions, believes that the commission should have the authority to direct research into mental health. What is interesting is after Budget 2020, the organisation New Zealanders for Health Research put out a press release, and they did some analysis: under Budget 2019, there was only $131 million put into health research. That is 0.81 percent of the healthcare spend. In Budget 2020, that had fallen by $13.7 million to $117.5 million\u2014down to 0.71 percent. They are advocating that on an international benchmark, New Zealand should be investing into health research at 2.4 percent of our health spend. You could even go further and, potentially, look at some ring-fencing and say that, out of that total health research spend, a percentage of that should be for mental health. One of the reasons I think this is important is because, as we know in mental health, we still don\u2019t know a lot. In fact, I\u2019ve heard academics say we are 50 years behind where physical health is, in the sense of research, and, if you look at the amount of research and development in the last 50 years for physical health, it shows how much we have to make up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: why is there no mention of research, and what importance does he put for the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission on focusing on the need for research in mental health?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb76d0c1cc8f4024ab7fc06b04e77e2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb76d0c1cc8f4024ab7fc06b04e77e2b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The commission is required to have sight of evidence. It is a broad term; that includes research and also includes other components such as data and evaluation. The commission\u2019s regard to consider the available evidence clearly encompasses research. So my assessment of it is that changing the legislation is not necessary to give effect to the point being raised by the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022656f128a22314f6fb597cfe1e2275228\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022656f128a22314f6fb597cfe1e2275228\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E While we\u2019re on the subject of what the bill does and does not say, I want to draw attention to the amendment to clause 11(3) in Mr Doocey\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 509, which talks about promoting a social investment approach in carrying out the functions of the Act. I recall from the report\u2014and I can just about give the member the page number; it\u2019s 201\u2014in its summary of the core functions of the mental health commission, that it is specifically identified in the recommendations that the commission \u201CDevelop an investment and quality assurance strategy for mental health promotion and prevention\u201D. Yet the functions and powers of the commission as listed in clause 11 do not include that. I think that\u2019s a really, really important additional function that the commission should have in law, because what an investment approach does is it takes the question of where the investment in our mental health resources is best put, and, at the moment, frankly, I think the DHB system is one that works against where the best investment should be going, which is into that low to moderate mental health need, which the report specifically identified. Whereas I think there are plenty of examples, including in the Minister\u2019s own home city, where the DHB has probably diverted\u2014well, not probably: it has diverted resources into that secondary care sector at the expense of the very much needed primary and community NGO-type mental health for low to moderate conditions, where that was the better investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EActually, I think the amendment to clause 11(3) by the addition of (3A) is absolutely vital in making it clear, not only to the commission but to the DHBs themselves that that is where\u2014rather, I wouldn\u2019t jump to the conclusion\u2014the research that Mr Doocey talks about, but also a specific focus on where the best investments should be put absolutely should be in the black-letter law so that there be no doubt that the commission can direct, can require, rather than being the Monday morning quarterback that I talk about. For that reason, I think that clause in particular is very much needed in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3e9781dd22c42ab867f760e5c2d1e47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3e9781dd22c42ab867f760e5c2d1e47\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E My view is that there\u2019s no particular need to specify the commission have a particular approach, or promote a particular approach, such as the social investment approach. In fact, the commission itself, through assessment of the evidence, which is the point we\u2019ve just covered\u2014the available research currently\u2014may decide that a different approach is better for advancing the wellbeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo this is somewhat contradictory in terms of what the member\u2019s put forward: at the one point suggesting that you\u2019ve got to have an eye for the available evidence and research, and then suggesting a particular approach that might come from that research. I would say that the commission, ultimately, would be best placed to consider whether a social investment approach or another approach is the appropriate way to perform its functions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1f93c4d3dd649a2af72f706c81d1209\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1f93c4d3dd649a2af72f706c81d1209\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Just following up on that, I think the Minister misunderstood his own legislation, because it says very much, under clause 8(2), \u201Cthe Minister must have regard to the need for members to collectively (a) have knowledge, understanding, and experience of\u2014\u201D, and then it goes on to have a range of approaches: public health, population health, improving health outcomes. All that this side of the House is saying is that, out of the range of those health approaches, why would you not have \u201Csocial investment approach\u201D, because, as we know with social investment, it is taking the longer-term view\u2014and the Minister himself talked about the challenge between treating mental illness and also taking a preventative approach. We all know the social investment approach is grounded in looking at long-term welfare liability, committing resource upfront\u2014that might be doubly expensive\u2014but to be actually intervening early and making a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EI think you could apply the same with mental health, especially when we know that, for people with lifelong mental health illness, 50 percent of them first present before the age of 14; 75 percent of them first present before the age of 24. Yet the average age of their first presentation is late-20s, early-30s. So we know there\u2019s about a 10-year gap where we don\u2019t capture people, and actually taking an approach that would actually be also data driven would be ensuring that all our services are feeding in the data at an anonymous level so that we can build that evidence base. And where we would disagree with the Minister around the term \u201Cevidence\u201D is that evidence only points to where the evidence is at the moment, and that comes back to my original point\u2014that we should actually be growing the evidence base. That\u2019s why, in my Supplementary Order Paper, it talks about the mental health commission, in clause 11(1)(d), \u201Cto promote alignment and collaboration in research undertaken in respect of the effectiveness of approaches to mental health and wellbeing, including identifying gaps in the evidence base and promoting research to address those gaps\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESo I would like to hear from the Minister: yes, he does have evidence mentioned in this legislation but where does it refer to the responsibilities of the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission to actually focus on research and direct research to inform that evidence base? Or this mental health commission, in fact, will have no oversight or interest in research.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022183e8d17baea42cb8589759f6c3fc8fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022183e8d17baea42cb8589759f6c3fc8fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Promoting collaboration across entities that are involved in or contribute to mental health and wellbeing may involve encouraging good practice, sharing information, and working with stakeholders to identify unmet needs and gaps. It will also include sharing evidence and ensuring that the evidence base is strong. I think that\u2019s likely to be a clear part of the commission\u2019s role. Again, I don\u2019t think that that needs explicit stating, and, in particular, I don\u2019t think that a particular approach needs to be recommended. The commission should have regard to the evidence. They should seek to learn the evidence as it\u2019s emerging, and involve themselves in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI think also the other point to make, in response to the member\u2019s wider point, is that the Health Committee\u2019s recommendation\u2014accepted by the Government\u2014that the bill is clear that when it\u2019s carrying out its functions, the commission must consider the available evidence, is specified in clause 11(3)(a) of the bill\u2014so, you know, to take it right back to the point of where this is already cited. So I think the bill as drafted addresses the issue adequately, without getting us into a position where it\u2019s recommending one particular approach that is fashionable right now be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u002223239d40ac9f4a85a00b2a11d41a27c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223239d40ac9f4a85a00b2a11d41a27c2\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E To conclude, in my final call for tonight on this committee of the whole House for the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission Bill, National will be supporting this bill. But, for the reasons we have outlined in this debate, we do want to put it on Hansard that we do have concerns that the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission may not have the authority to deal with the demands that New Zealanders and mental health services are facing today, especially in the context of COVID-19, where the Epidemic Response Committee has heard of forecasting by Sir Peter Gluckman of potentially tens of thousands of New Zealanders who will lose their job and lose their incomes and develop real, serious mental distress. No one in this House wants to see the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission go back to the future. We have been here before. Many in the mental health sector felt the previous commission had lost its way, and we do implore the Government that giving this commission the ability to focus on some of those key points mentioned in my Supplementary Order Paper today will give the commission more authority and ability to work across many Government departments\u2014Corrections, Education, Justice, Health, and others\u2014to actually develop a mental health strategy which is whole-of-Government and will make a real difference in New Zealanders\u2019 lives. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00222c9b467c432c4397b4342b35238e6c04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c9b467c432c4397b4342b35238e6c04\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Just to close, I do want to thank that side of the committee for its support of this commission, that has been worked on by New Zealand First, Labour, and the Greens. We believe that this is a huge step forward in having an independent commission able to hold this Government and future Governments to account, in a thoroughly independent way. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 509 in the name of Matt Doocey be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002209e46c44f5cf48a49fea05ca813a89a7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000634\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, Schedules 1 to 2, and clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000635\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b71a2aac20e494280bf078c0369c388\u0022\u003EPrivacy Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221006a90d72244b3ea27140f6839fc496\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7d0526981474fb0a106b4f89faded54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7d0526981474fb0a106b4f89faded54\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that agreement has been reached to take this as one part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022647e8d0aa4874f3b8a4e559ba09ee3e6\u0022\u003EPart 1 to 9, Schedules 1 to 10, Clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00226803def26c474de8aea4f0fa48f9e2ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226803def26c474de8aea4f0fa48f9e2ce\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e94f52f3eb3a461699d5ea315e59296d\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t even care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e43ebf121e884bb3a0a0918a4d4b1c5a\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I care deeply, Mr Iain Lees-Galloway. I care more than the Minister of Justice, clearly, because I\u2019m here and presenting on behalf of the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWe support the Privacy Bill, we continue to support the Privacy Bill, we have since it was largely\u2014or at least, commenced in the conception and drafting thereof under a previous Government. We think that it is a matter of some importance to the nation, and it\u2019s appropriate that the Parliament take it seriously. Privacy is a human right and should be recognised as such, at least in the form of a good bit of legislation such as we have before us today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s worth noting that the Privacy Bill doesn\u2019t cover every scenario in terms of protecting privacy in this country, but it is good as far as it goes and should be judged on those merits for the purpose of the committee stage. Obviously we\u2019ll confine ourselves to making comments about that which is in the bill and not that which is not in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI look forward to something of a discussion with the Minister, or a Minister, in terms of a couple of questions that we have in the way that we conduct these committee stage exchanges. I will pose a number of questions, but happy, obviously, to engage throughout, and on a couple of areas that seem to me reasonably key. I did have the benefit of being a member of the select committee for some of the process of its consideration and the deliberation, albeit not all of it. So on some occasions I\u2019ll be asking questions that I\u2019m reasonably confident I know the answer to, but think it\u2019s worth putting on record so that the Minister has an opportunity to provide some clarity and some guidance and also, of course, an element of testing, albeit from a point of view that is somewhat\u2014not in an unduly or unhelpfully partisan manner for a subject area that as I began my contribution, I think is well agreed in principle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo my first question to the Minister would be around the fact that we have a new piece of legislation that, like its predecessor, is based on a number of information privacy principles. There are 12 of them, and I wonder if the Minister would care to provide a comment. I\u2019m just looking in his direction. I don\u2019t want to catch him out, so to speak. But I\u2019m curious to know if the Minister has any thought about whether there should be any further information in terms of privacy principles or if he\u2019s happy that we, essentially, relegislate under the current framework of the existing principles, but merely update the detail under each of those. So that would be my first question, if the Minister is in a position to answer, failing which I\u2019ll continue on another. In fact, I see he is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002234976ed9a316401184d445ec16a9a926\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234976ed9a316401184d445ec16a9a926\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the member for his question. This bill, the member might well know, goes back some years. In fact, it started under the previous Government, and it\u2019s no criticism that it has taken this long to get to this point. A very important area of human endeavour\u2014particularly in this day and age\u2014is to ensure that we have a good legal framework to protect privacy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo these privacy principles were well canvassed and well thrashed out in the original legislation. They were well reviewed and well considered in the review of the legislation, and in putting together this bill. Even though the bill started life in 2011, I think, and has been reconsidered since\u2014and certainly on the change of Government, there was a further reconsideration about whether it met the mark. There were some changes made to bring it up to spec, particularly with the European data requirements. But these principles have proved to be enduring, and with some minor changes and tweaks, I think, generally, members on both sides of the House have got to the position that, actually, they serve the purpose well. They\u2019re a good, high-level indicator of what is expected and the extent of protection that ought to be in place, and a basis on which the rest of the legal framework can fall. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo I stand by the principles as they are. They\u2019ve been well considered, and they\u2019ve been proven to work in practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00226b154275bc5142c9ac78ffd8d6e38b81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b154275bc5142c9ac78ffd8d6e38b81\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I\u2019m grateful to the Minister for that answer. On this side of the committee, I think we\u2019re in a very similar space, at least as far as the ambit of the bill itself is concerned, as I noted earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested also to just flesh out a little bit of the Minister\u2019s thinking around the operation of the new offences and penalties that are created by the bill. It\u2019s one of its key features. So for those who haven\u2019t had the benefit of reading it closely, I\u2019ll note, for the sake of the debate, that the bill does create new criminal offences, including misleading an agency to obtain access to someone else\u2019s information or destroying a document containing personal information, with the context being that it was known that a request had been made. There are penalties of up to $10,000, which is considerably higher than the fines under the current legislation. So no small matter, but that\u2019s appropriate if we regard privacy as a serious matter of protection, or indeed as a human right, as I characterised it earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo my question for the Minister is how he views these penalties under the Privacy Bill\u2014soon to be the new Privacy Act\u2014in relation to the penalties that are available under the civil regime. So where the tort of privacy currently exists and it\u2019s available to a person to take a cause of action against another person for a breach of privacy, I\u2019d be interested to know from the Minister how he feels that these should interact\u2014whether, for example, an offence allegedly committed under the Privacy Bill would preclude a civil action in a similar kind of space or in relation to the same action and vice versa, bearing in mind, of course, the principle of double jeopardy at play. So I\u2019d welcome any comments that the Minister has on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002246b69a9341bd4e32843fb947a7023ff9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246b69a9341bd4e32843fb947a7023ff9\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member, Chris Penk, again for his question. I think the member can be assured that the level of penalties for offences in this bill are comparable to offences in, for example, the Human Rights Act and those that would also be considered by the Human Rights Review Tribunal. So we know that at that sort of civil level of penalty, that $10,000 mark for an individual is pretty much the top end. It is a pretty severe penalty for an individual who offends against the provision. But it\u2019s not at the $100,000 or $500,000 mark. You wouldn\u2019t expect that for this sort of thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThese penalties are greater than what appears in the current legislation, but that is right, not only because inflation will have eroded the value of those penalties but also because there is, for good reason, greater sensitivity in this day and age about privacy and about breaches of privacy that ought to attract a material enough penalty, which I think these provisions do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb3ea877e6ff4406a170fa0361ef47d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb3ea877e6ff4406a170fa0361ef47d9\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to continue a little bit on the subject of penalties, and I\u2019m grateful to the Minister for his explanation of the level of penalties set by the bill, but I wonder if he can provide any guidance on how he sees the operation of offences under the Act as compared with what might be available to a private litigant? So, in a civil action under the tort of privacy, it might be available for a person to sue for a breach, and I\u2019m wondering if the same action that falls within the ambit of this bill might also be available to a person to sue in respect of that in that civil realm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022118280ff7f1d47a18fd2b489d0b2ba3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022118280ff7f1d47a18fd2b489d0b2ba3d\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The jurisprudence on privacy in New Zealand has really been geared around the Privacy Act, and it\u2019s what the Privacy Commissioner and what the Proceedings Commissioner has done in relation to the Human Rights Review Tribunal. In terms of private action or a piece of civil litigation in relation to privacy, a litigant would have to demonstrate harm, which is what they\u2019re, effectively, seeking, either compensation for that or reparation for that or some sort of exemplary damages. But that area in New Zealand common law is not well developed, so I\u2019m not particularly fussed that the offence provisions here don\u2019t allow somebody who has suffered a civil wrong to launch litigation for that. This is the means by which people can enforce their privacy rights. They can do it through the Privacy Commissioner and they can do it through the Proceedings Commissioner, who takes cases to the Human Rights Review Tribunal. So that\u2019s the important part of the privacy jurisprudence for New Zealand and will continue to be so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022afa861d634bd4141a93e5061e8e862ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afa861d634bd4141a93e5061e8e862ea\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and, again, grateful for the interaction on that one. My next line of questioning, or perhaps exploration, is in relation to the exemptions for news media.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI note that the way that the bill is structured is that it is an \u201Cagency\u201D, as defined in the legislation, who has certain obligations for the treatment of private information. There are a number of exclusions, one of which we might come to a bit later, but, initially, I\u2019m interested in the exclusion that an \u201Cagency\u201D does not include a news entity in relation to its news activities. We see that a \u201Cnews entity\u201D means one that is, essentially, conducting news activity, which in turn means, among other things, publishing news observations and current affairs and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo given that \u201Cpublishing\u201D in the bill can mean publishing on any medium, just wondering if the Minister\u2019s got any views about how this may apply, whether immediately or perhaps in due course, to social media platforms. I appreciate that it\u2019s a vexed area more generally and outside the realm of privacy legislation as well, and I do acknowledge that it\u2019s an evolving area, so I don\u2019t think it\u2019d be reasonable for anyone to expect the Minister would have a complete answer in that regard. But, certainly, any guidance he can give I think would be useful to sort of develop the thinking of this committee, and no doubt for others who are interested in developing and, indeed, applying privacy law going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00220653a569281640a49e9154923d98cfd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220653a569281640a49e9154923d98cfd5\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think, from the outset, the current Privacy Act was conceived on the basis\u2014and it was a very debateable point at that time\u2014that the news media were able to protect their sources. As a liberal social democracy, we\u2019ve long cherished the role that the fourth estate plays as part of our democracy, not just calling politicians to account but calling private organisations and public organisations and individuals to account, particularly those who wield power or exercise power and influence. So protecting the news media has always been a vital objective in the legal framework that we\u2019ve got.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn terms of defining what that is, clause 6, which is the interpretation section, is very clear in its definition of both news activity and news entity. So news activity involves gathering, news gathering, observation on news, current affairs. Now, somebody might say, well, somebody with a Twitter account is observing news, sometimes very insightfully and sometimes not\u2014in fact, I\u2019d say more often not insightfully. But I think where the rubber hits the road is in the definition of news entity, and a news entity is one that is subject to oversight by the standards agency\u2014so the Broadcasting Standards Authority, the New Zealand Media Council, or equivalent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s not anybody who rocks on up and says, \u201CRight, I\u2019m a news outlet.\u201D We expect them to observe basic journalistic principles: the need for fairness and balance, a commitment to accuracy. No one\u2019s perfect and people get it wrong, but you want an institution that is committed to that. So I\u2019m satisfied that the definitions in clause 6 of the bill provide the safeguards in relation to the protection afforded news media. We want them to have that protection, but we don\u2019t want anybody just rolling around claiming that they\u2019re somehow a news entity and doing news activity, when that isn\u2019t the case. I think there\u2019s a very clear definition here that protects those who are subject to the accountability of the real news media and it protects the news media in doing their job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002249305a20a8a44a2ab14abb82af7fd86d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249305a20a8a44a2ab14abb82af7fd86d\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and, again, thanks to the Minister. I suppose I might just add, if I may, an observation on that area, having had the benefit of a discussion at the select committee level. We thought that it would be helpful to provide as much clarity as possible\u2014notwithstanding that it is a developing area, of course\u2014in the social media space. So with \u201Cnews entity\u201D, which the Minister rightly highlights as being a key aspect of that definition, essentially\u2014and, therefore, that exclusion\u2014we talk about those who are, or are employed by one who is, subject to the oversight of the Broadcasting Standards Authority, Media Council, or other body prescribed as a regulatory body by regulations made under the relevant section of this Act. So I presume it would be within the purview of the Minister of Justice, in whose name this bill comes before us, effectively, to be able to control that. In fact, actually, I should acknowledge I might be wrong in terms of the Minister who would be suggesting that those regulations be made. But, in any case, it would be within the ability of the Government of the day to make regulations to acknowledge updating circumstances in the media space as a bit of a compromise whereby we want to provide as much certainty as possible and not merely talk in general terms about what it is to be a publisher, and so forth. So I think that\u2019s, if I may say, a helpful discussion that we\u2019ve been able to have on both sides of the House, and, indeed, following the select committee process that was also very constructive in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI did have one other question in relation to the definition of \u201Cagency\u201D, and it was an invitation for the Minister to comment on the exclusion to do with inquiries. So, for anyone following along at home, or, indeed, the Minister himself, in the \u201CInterpretation\u201D section\u2014that\u2019s clause 6(1)(b)(x)\u2014an inquiry is not included in the definition of an \u201Cagency\u201D, whereas some of the other exclusions are very worthy. For example, members of Parliament in their official capacity are excluded, which, I have to say\u2014albeit with a vested interest\u2014I think is very right and proper. For an inquiry to not be subject to the principles and the prescriptions and the proscriptions of the Act seems to me, perhaps, surprising, but there might be a good explanation for it. So any thoughts that the Minister may have, and I appreciate I\u2019m putting him on the spot somewhat, in a relatively small aspect, albeit important, given the number of inquiries that are conducted. If the Minister has got any comments in relation to that, I would be grateful to hear them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002274953d4d05f2424da9387a6f71d490a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274953d4d05f2424da9387a6f71d490a4\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think the reason for that, if I could assist the honourable member, is because the framework around inquiries is generally covered by the Inquiries Act. So an inquiry, as we commonly understand it, which is usually public, is subject to a number of constraints and rules and regulations, and so any privacy obligations and obligations to protect privacy are covered under that legislation. So it doesn\u2019t need to be replicated or duplicated under this, the generic Privacy Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022374e3bb138c244b6a9792acd52644f16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022374e3bb138c244b6a9792acd52644f16\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to have one more call\u2014thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just, finally, curious on the subject of what is described in the commentary, as reported from the Justice Committee\u2014that fine body\u2014in relation to commissioners\u2019 decisions on access requests. And so what we\u2019ve got is an understanding that the commissioner, being the Privacy Commissioner, would be able to make directions on complaints about access to information. And then if the person who\u2019d made a complaint was not satisfied with the finding, or, perhaps, someone being dissatisfied in having a finding made against them to be able to appeal that to the Human Rights Review Tribunal. So that\u2019s a deliberate policy decision that\u2019s been made. I make that observation on the basis that, previously, I think I\u2019m right in saying, the Human Rights Review Tribunal would have a prior involvement in the process. So if there\u2019s any particular thinking behind that that the Minister\u2019s able to share with us, that would be useful to know. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1285369add54367a42acd532e1b319d\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022aea65b5649a04aa49260eb66fb3dba7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aea65b5649a04aa49260eb66fb3dba7c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister\u2019s\u2014do you want to respond to that or do you want a bit more time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb0f875bbcd24ef5a847b1c21ae6fa6b\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: If Mr Brown wants to take his call and I\u2019ll respond to both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002251c321b58b524e45b8a9d8e1712d312b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251c321b58b524e45b8a9d8e1712d312b\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to take a call on the Privacy Bill, an excellent piece of legislation which was brought to this House by the National Government\u2014a great piece of National legislation which the Government\u2019s still progressing many years into its first term, and only term, in Government\u2014this, the Privacy Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI just want to cover a couple of points in this legislation. I\u2019d like to talk about cloud services, which are not to be covered by the principles relating to overseas disclosure. It says in the commentary, \u201CWe consider that the obligations in clause 19 of the bill as introduced, IPP 11(3) to (6) (which, for reasons \u2026 we recommend renaming to IPP \u2026 should not apply to an agency transferring information to a cloud storage provider or other overseas processor.\u201D I was wondering if the Minister would like to give the committee some explanation as to why that has not been covered in those principles and that those principles do not apply to an agency transferring information to a cloud storage provider or other overseas processor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EA big issue which is developing\u2014cloud storage services are becoming more and more part of our lives, and I think it would be helpful for the committee to be able to understand the issue that is at play here and the impact that it has on cloud storage services, which New Zealanders use in their day-to-day lives. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00222a633895b97046c683d033ca53a90c0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a633895b97046c683d033ca53a90c0d\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just responding to Mr Penk\u2019s\u2014I was going to say his final question, but I hesitate to tempt fate on that regard, but just to say that access to information is a vital principle and a vital objective. So the Privacy Commissioner has a role to play to ensure that those seeking or who have been declined access to personal information from an agency can go to the Privacy Commissioner and get a ruling on that, and the Privacy Commissioner can take an interest in that. That is important, and the bill is about\u2014as, indeed, is the current Act\u2014maximising access to personal information held about you so that you can get that or a person can get that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn relation to Mr Brown\u2019s question, a number of issues arise with information stored on the cloud. The question is, of course, who controls that, and if a cloud operator is an overseas entity, it\u2019s going to be difficult for the Privacy Commissioner to have jurisdiction over that. The way the Privacy Commissioner operates and what we seek to do is to ensure that where information is stored in the cloud, the agency who has stored it is the outfit who you go to to claim your right of access where that is an issue. And we are currently working with many countries about ensuring that we can protect the rights of citizens, of individuals, in terms of access to their information that, although it might be controlled by an agency, is stored by cloud services that themselves are controlled offshore, and we want to make sure that individuals don\u2019t lose control over that data and the way that is processed and used by that cloud operator. But the ability to do that cannot be covered in this legislation because it is confined to New Zealand territory. The extraterritoriality requirements that we might have will be covered by other provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon Andrew Little to the proposed amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 482 in the name of the Hon Andrew Little be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Ein clause 2(2), replace \u201C1 November 2020\u201D with \u201C1 December 2020\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Ein clause 19, information privacy principle 12(3), delete \u201Cand sections 212A and 212B\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Ein clause 47, replace \u201Can individual\u201D with \u201Ca person\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Ein clause 64(2), replace \u201Cindividual\u201D with \u201Cperson\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Ein clause 67, replace \u201Can individual\u201D with \u201Ca person\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Ein clause 74, definition of action, replace \u201Csection 6\u201D with \u201Csection 6(1)\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Ein clause 75(3), replace \u201Crequest made by an individual\u201D with \u201Crequest made by a person\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Ereplace clause 102(1) with:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E(1)\tThis section applies if a complaint or matter is referred by the Commissioner to the Director under section 84A, 89B, 96(5)(b) or (6), or 99(4)(a) or (5).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Ereplace clause 127(2) with:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe agency must\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E(a)\tcomply with the notice as soon as practicable after receiving it unless it is cancelled or suspended; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E(b)\tif applicable, remedy the breach by the date stated in the notice unless that date is varied or modified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Ein clause 191, replace \u201C8 November 2020\u201D with \u201C8 December 2020\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Ein clause 216, replace \u201C8 November 2020\u201D with \u201C8 December 2020\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Ein Schedule 1, clause 1, replace \u201C1 November 2020\u201D with \u201C1 December 2020\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Ein Schedule 8, replace \u201C1 November 2020\u201D with \u201C1 December 2020\u201D in each place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 482 in the name of the Hon Andrew Little as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 9, Schedules 1 to 10, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Reform) Amendment Bill with amendment, the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission Bill without amendment, and the Privacy Bill with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226565b84ab95e49279fa3f550b2c5a803\u0022\u003EResource Management Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de2b1f7be02c4781976f2645670c7a9c\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000703\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 2 June.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00221a6e1cb1ad184cdd8019aa57f1374b06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a6e1cb1ad184cdd8019aa57f1374b06\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Thank you. Very pleased to take a call on the Resource Management Amendment Bill. When we were last in the Chamber discussing this, Opposition members were railing against the bill. It is a very important bill and it is the first phase of this Government\u2019s changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA). There is a review panel chaired by Judge Randerson and that is looking at more comprehensive reform. But this bill is important because it removes some of the worst changes that the former National Government made to the RMA with their Resource Legislation Amendment Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESome of those key changes are the very Draconian powers which the former environment Minister, the Hon Dr Nick Smith, provided for himself, and they were widely criticised in submissions. Those were the powers in section 360D, where it enabled the Minister to make regulations to either prohibit or remove rules that councils had developed and included in their district plans, if they overlapped with any other subject matter. So these were really Draconian powers allowing the Minister just to come down on top of a district plan which had been through the whole public consultative process, maybe even had been to the Environment Court and had appeals resolved there. These Draconian powers are going, under this bill. Similarly, for the powers that the former National Government put in, in section 360G of the Act, which allowed the Minister the ability to make regulations so that certain resource consent applications had to be considered and processed in 10 days. So a very narrow window of time to consider those applications and no ability to make public submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the other Draconian powers that this bill removes from the RMA is section 360H, which was the Minister\u2019s ability to make regulations, again overriding the primary legislation by requiring that there not be public notification on certain activities, cutting right across the ability of councils to set out in their plans what should be notified and what shouldn\u2019t. So those changes in this bill are quite an important removal of the tinkering which the Resource Legislation Amendment Act did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut more important are the changes that this bill makes to the way in which freshwater planning is done at the regional level through New Zealand. With the new strengthened national policy statement (NPS) on fresh water and the new national environmental standards on fresh water, which this Government has put in place to ensure that our rivers are swimmable both for people and fish and for gathering mahinga kai within a generation, we need a much more nimble process for enacting the changes that the NPS requires in regional plans. So what the bill does is set up a new process by which councils have a panel of freshwater commissioners who consider the submissions on the plan changes which implement the NPS, and those commissioners include people with expertise in tikanga M\u0101ori, recognising that m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori and te mana o te wai are at the heart of the freshwater NPS.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo people will have the appropriate expertise. There will be a senior judge involved in that, and these freshwater commissioners will come from a centralised pool, highly specialised. There\u2019ll also be a representative from the regional council on that panel of commissioners. It is a process for considering and making changes to the regional freshwater or land and water plan, which is very similar to that which was adopted in Auckland for the development of the unitary plan. So, yes, there will be some restrictions on appeal rights, but that is only if the regional council rejects the recommendations which this panel of commissioners makes. It is a major improvement to regional land and water planning, which has been often controversial around New Zealand, because of the different interests of water users, land users, and those valuing instream values, whether they be for recreation or supporting birds and wildlife. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the other major changes that this bill makes is to ensure that it is compatible with the zero carbon Act, which we enacted in the Parliament in December last year. That Act sets out a framework of enduring institutional arrangements with the establishment of the Climate Commission to ensure that New Zealand is on target to mitigate and adapt to climate change. But one of the problems with the RMA at present is it doesn\u2019t allow decision makers to take into account the greenhouse gas emissions of activities. So the bill enables that matching up with the zero carbon Act to occur, and the implementation of these changes will only take place when emissions reduction plans have been done by the Climate Commission and when central government has had an opportunity to provide some national guidance on how that should be implemented under the RMA to ensure that there is national consistency. Ensuring that our climate change targets are reflected in the RMA will help ensure a cohesive approach to climate change, so it\u2019s quite a major change that the bill is making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIn terms of the other areas where the changes are important, in subdivision the National Government with the Resource Legislation Amendment Act (RLA Act) reversed the presumption, the quite restrictive presumption, in the RMA around subdivision to potentially make it a permitted activity. This bill puts it back so that subdivision can\u2019t happen unless it\u2019s allowed by resource consent or a rule in a district plan. That is because in an age of rising sea levels, more intense storm events, and increased floods, we want to make sure that subdivision and housing development occurs outside of areas of natural hazard. Having a very permissive approach to subdivision cuts right across that. So there are some quite substantial changes in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe last of the areas I\u2019d like to comment on was just the increase in public participation, cutting out some of the changes that the RLA Act made that really restricted the rights of the public to get involved. This Government has a different approach and recognises the value that public participation\u2014submissions, appearing before hearing panels\u2014has in providing more information to decision makers. The bill actually restores that, because those changes that the former Government made were widely opposed by submitters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThis is the first in other changes to the RMA to make it more effective, more nimble, to reintroduce public participation rights, to override and remove those very Draconian powers that were given to the Minister by the former Government, and to really make our freshwater planning system more nimble, and to ensure that the RMA aligns with the zero carbon Act. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00220df61df38b274825a74c4723102d2db7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220df61df38b274825a74c4723102d2db7\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. As with previous readings, it is for me to indicate that National opposes this Resource Management Amendment Bill at its second reading, and really to note that what this bill, in effect, does is largely to reverse the changes made to the Resource Management Act (RMA) by the previous Government, under National\u2019s Resource Legislation Amendment Act 2017, which was all about reducing the bureaucracy that simply gets in the way of creating jobs, of building houses, and also of providing for good environmental protection. It is ironic that, at the very time we are in this House debating yet another RMA amendment bill, the Environment Committee is at the very same time considering the Urban Development Bill, which does exactly the opposite of\u2014I\u2019m looking behind me for my colleague Erica Stanford, who sits on the committee with me and who shares, I\u2019m sure, the same dismay at the fact that, on the one hand, the RMA is loading up bureaucracy and proudly doing so, if the last speaker was anything to go back, yet at the same time the Urban Development Bill is doing exactly the opposite. So which way is it for this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226898e39fbbf34c6d84b19f9f8248dc40\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s incoherent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b4ea98b013e4bdbb2b78cdca7ab6dda\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is; thank you for that. It is an incoherent approach to planning in New Zealand. And what, I guess, makes it even more incoherent is the fact that, last November, the Government appointed an expert Resource Management Review Panel to review the RMA and to produce reform proposals. So not only do we have an RMA amendment bill in the House today, which is proposing more bureaucracy, we have an Urban Development Bill cutting down on consultation quite severely. But the third leg to this unfortunate stool is that the Government has a Resource Management Review Panel and something like 300 working groups which this Government is churning through\u2014they call that work. It\u2019s called working groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESo this Resource Management Review Panel is going to produce a report this month. So that report from the expert panel was due at the end of May. It\u2019s now June. I believe that the chair of the panel is a gentleman with timely habits; so I\u2019m very interested to know where that report is. But I\u2019m also even more interested to know why we are tinkering around the edges of the RMA\u2014and that\u2019s all this is; it\u2019s just reversing changes, and it was acknowledged by the Hon Eugenie Sage. Why is it that the Government is spending this House\u2019s time reversing those changes\u2014it\u2019s mere tinkering\u2014when there is a substantive report due? It defies logic. I would assume that, in doing so, this delay, this confusion, will be causing further disruption to the current users of the Resource Management Act at the very time, in this post-COVID world, when one would hope that a certain amount of certainty and planning were to be desirable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EAt the select committee stage, there were a couple of things. One of those reversals of previous decisions made by the previous Government that is occurring in this bill is on the power of councils to consider climate change in RMA decisions with neither public consultation involved nor any degree of costing involved. That provision around climate change provisions has been reinstated into this bill. So the power over emissions is now in the hands of councils, the Environment Court, and boards of inquiry with no consultations, and there\u2019s no costings around that. The previous Minister who spoke did signal national guidance but, in the absence of that, are councils now to make up their own standards and their own policies around climate change? I think we know the answer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESo the National Party believes very strongly that any substantial changes to the RMA should be made with a full consideration of the expert panel\u2019s recommendations, and I am at a loss, my colleagues are at a loss, to know why we are ploughing through with, I think, the 19th iteration of the RMA, when in fact both Labour and National have signalled a complete rewrite of the Resource Management Act is, in fact, what is required. So this is a mystifying piece of legislation, but none the less we are obliged to plough on with it, albeit that we are opposing it all the way through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI just want to raise one other point, which is that there is significant change around fresh water and, if one believes Eugenie Sage, much progress is being made in this regard. But, actually, it\u2019s a switch in power, and it\u2019s a switch in power to the centre, which we have seen several times by this Government, one of them being polytech reforms\u2014and there is some work going on in reticulated three waters, which signals to be yet another switch in power to the centre. So watch that space. But a significant change in the bill is that the new freshwater commissioners will be appointed by the Minister for the Environment rather than the regional council. Now, this is a significant move, and it shouldn\u2019t be underestimated that this removes decision making and the power to appoint from a regional council to the Minister of the day. Are we comfortable with that? Regional councils weren\u2019t very comfortable with that. I\u2019m not very comfortable with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe irony is huge here, because the Government parties so strongly opposed the appointment of commissioners to Environment Canterbury a decade ago, when Environment Canterbury failed to notify a water plan, but are now creating legislation which allows the Government to do that and to appoint commissioners all through New Zealand. So the irony and the policy muddle prevail all through this bill\u2014mostly through this House. The Opposition party is the largest party in Parliament, and so we oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00220a58391322e74ec7a0410a9b5078f309\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a58391322e74ec7a0410a9b5078f309\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Dr Liz Craig.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022bffd1ea0c6f947c1ba8265391d767311\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bffd1ea0c6f947c1ba8265391d767311\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a real pleasure to speak on this bill because this bill is going to make a real difference down in Southland, where I live. If we look at what\u2019s been happening with our New River Estuary down South and just decades of accumulation of silt coming down the rivers and nutrients, what it basically shows is that if we drop the ball on freshwater management, we end up with what we\u2019ve got down South, which is knee-deep, waist-high\u2014depending on where you\u2019re standing in our estuary\u2014toxic, thick mud. So what this bill will do is create the framework and the consistency for regional councils across the country so that they can do their freshwater planning in a consistent way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EIf you look at the previous national policy statement and what happened\u2014and I think the previous speaker, Jacqui Dean, was talking about \u201Cmuddles\u201D. But looking at it under the previous system, each regional council pretty much did its own thing, and so we get incredible variability across the country in terms of how they\u2019re managing it. So what this is doing is creating a much more strategic framework that sets out how we will be managing this and it sets up freshwater hearing panels. What we\u2019ve got there is some consistency, because we\u2019ve got freshwater commissioners appointed by the Minister who are taken from a common pool, which means they\u2019ve got consistency of view across the country, but we\u2019re also including members from regional councils and also local tangata whenua. So we\u2019ve got the right mix for making decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThis is an important bill. It sets up the framework for where we need to go forward on freshwater quality, and I\u2019m really happy to commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00225ec3b5db05c546d388f39c37ddb2e423\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ec3b5db05c546d388f39c37ddb2e423\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on the Resource Management Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to start by saying that there was a really interesting comment a couple of debates ago when we were debating the emissions trading scheme (ETS) bill, where James Shaw, the Minister in the chair, said he hoped that the ETS bill wouldn\u2019t end up like the Resource Management Act (RMA). And I thought that was very telling because it indicates that not only Labour and National but also the Greens, and I think most people in this Chamber and in this Parliament, believe that the RMA has become, sort of, unwieldly, difficult, hard to navigate legislation that has had its day and needs to be repealed. It makes planning and building houses more difficult, and it certainly isn\u2019t getting the environmental outcomes that we want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe all know that significant change is required to the RMA, but this bill, this RMA bill, can be quite well summed up as a delayed and incoherent mess. This is a Government that, remember, campaigned vigorously on building houses and sorting out housing affordability and dramatically increasing supply, and so we got KiwiBuild, which is one of the biggest failures of all time\u2014and I think Megan Woods is realising it\u2019s getting worse by the day as she\u2019s forced to put out fire after fire. And now we have RMA reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EHere the Government has the opportunity to make some really meaningful changes to the RMA in order to get houses built more quickly and more cheaply. But what we have here, which is their heralded RMA reform, is basically the Government kicking the can down the road; it\u2019s just stage one. In my first reading speech, I said that I suspect it\u2019s a tinkering-around-the-edges bill. After the select committee process what I thought was confirmed, because this is just the entr\u00E9e\u2014the meaty stuff that they\u2019re planning on doing is coming at some further stage down the track, maybe in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESo in a nutshell, this Government have spent three years developing a bill that basically just reverses all of the previous changes to the RMA made by the last National Government, changes that we made to make the process easier, fairer, quicker, and cheaper, so that we could get on and build affordable houses. But this bill just basically undoes all that. It quite clearly will make the process of building houses more complex, more time consuming, and more costly. It won\u2019t go in any way to addressing affordability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe initial briefing we received from officials in the environment select committee was very telling. They took us through an overview of the changes, including removing regulation-making powers, reversing the changes, repealing the\u2014all the \u201CR\u201D words, I won\u2019t go into in detail; speakers before me have talked about it at length. But the point is that the words \u201Cremove\u201D, \u201Creverse\u201D, \u201Crepeal\u201D come up a lot in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EBut what makes these changes completely incoherent and, frankly, a joke is that while this bill increases costs and delays and does nothing for housing affordability, there are two other major pieces of reform that are doing exactly the opposite. Jacqui Dean stated, before me, that already the Urban Development Bill, currently before the Environment Committee, gives the Government the power to fast track development by removing barriers to planning constraints or having to deal with the RMA. And the Minister, in May, took a paper to Cabinet proposing the COVID-19 Recovery (Fast-track Consenting) Bill, which, again, is basically designed to bypass the RMA. It proposes a non-notified consenting and designation process in the main for Government-led projects. So the Government knows very well the constraints of the RMA in building and development, and they threw these two very bills that they are proposing to carve out RMA exemptions for themselves. But in this bill they make it far more difficult to get on with building houses for everybody else by undoing the changes that we made to make things easier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s, like I said, an incoherent mess. Minister Parker needs to explain. He said in this Chamber quite recently\u2014I remember him saying\u2014that the RMA causes delays and it causes costs. So why is he bringing a bill to this House that adds more delay and more cost? And to add to more of the chaos, we\u2019ve got this working group, this RMA working group, that\u2019s been under way and was supposed to be reporting back this month; we hear it\u2019s another two months away. That\u2019s supposed to give the Government all the answers. So why is it that this is all backwards, that they\u2019re introducing a bill that makes minor tinkering changes around the edges, making things far worse for building houses, but they\u2019re still waiting on this big chunky report to tell them how to do it properly? It\u2019s an incoherent mess, and we cannot support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00228cd9cdf46c924a169edca10a751e7939\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cd9cdf46c924a169edca10a751e7939\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I support this bill absolutely. It does four fundamental things. It ensures that the Environmental Protection Authority has the ability to support the regional councils on enforcement action. It enables faster and better nationally consistent water management. Time is short, so I\u2019m going to just jump to the final thing that I love the most, and that is that it enables climate change to be brought into the Resource Management Act. I think this is a fundamentally wonderful bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e284b080bc5a4ddca58fd2f042a7c9f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e284b080bc5a4ddca58fd2f042a7c9f7\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the ACT Party in opposition to this bill. I should first just assist the member Angie Warren-Clark, who\u2019s just resumed her seat, and say climate change considerations have been in the Resource Management Act (RMA) for a long time. It\u2019s actually a mistake, because, if the emissions trading scheme (ETS) legislation we debated last night is truly putting a proper price on carbon, then people will be able to make decisions about emitting carbon based on that price and we actually don\u2019t need a second layer of legislation in the Resource Management Act, because people would already be considering it because the ETS is working. So either last night\u2019s legislation is working and this is not necessary or this is necessary and last night\u2019s legislation doesn\u2019t work. That\u2019s the simple logic of it, but we don\u2019t get that sort of critical thinking and analysis from the Government benches. So much for rebuttal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe reason for opposing this bill is that, frankly, it\u2019s pathetic. I mean that in the proper sense of the word. In comparison to the problems that this country faces under the Resource Management Act and the level and scale of reform that is necessary and possible, this bill is pathetic. It is like setting a capuchin monkey of a solution on a gorilla of a problem. Let me tell you what those problems are\u2014something that one might think the Labour Party would care about deeply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EUnder the Resource Management Act, over the past 30 years, we have had inflation in New Zealand\u2014consumers price index inflation of 61 percent. The cost per metre of building a home has gone up a lot more than that\u2014260 percent. But the price of the median section in Auckland has gone up 900 percent over those 30 years. That is what this piece of law, the Resource Management Act, has delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve just seen Clayton Mitchell hold up a sign with a 7\u00BD on it. I can only guess that he was scoring my speech so far out of five, because, by the standards of his party speaking in Parliament, that\u2019s about what it deserves\u2014150 percent. There we go, it is out of five. Thank you, Clayton Mitchell, for that adulation. I hope he learns something, because the New Zealand First Party in the previous Parliament postured politically that it was prepared to cross the floor and work with ACT and National to pass real Resource Management Act reform. Now the possibility exists to do just that\u2014to cross the floor and work with National and ACT to pass real Resource Management Act reform\u2014and where is New Zealand First? Nowhere. As per usual, throughout their history, they\u2019re more than happy to take the baubles of office and leave no lasting policy improvements for New Zealand. What a shame. All he can do is sit in the corner of the House and hold up silly signs. What a shame. No wonder New Zealand First is on the way out, and the great tragedy is they\u2019ll leave nothing behind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut we should come back to this piece of legislation. This piece of legislation is introduced into a context where the inflation in the price of a section in our largest city has gone up 900 percent\u201410 times inflation over the period that we have been trying to build more homes. In that same period, the amount of income that the lower quintile\u2014that\u2019s the bottom 20 percent\u2014of households spend on housing has doubled. Thirty years ago, the poorest people in New Zealand spent a quarter of their income on housing. Now they spend half their income on housing. Now, that\u2019s something that a good social justice warrior like Iain Lees-Galloway should care about. You\u2019d think he\u2019d care about it. But, instead, the Labour Party comes down to Parliament and introduces Resource Management Act reform that does nothing to fix the problem of land supply and housing, and that is one of the greatest shames of this current Labour Government. That\u2019s our history. We\u2019ll see it: nothing to improve the Resource Management Act, under which the price of housing for the poorest New Zealanders has doubled as a share of their income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe fundamental problem with the Resource Management Act that should be getting fixed but isn\u2019t, is that it has no regard for property rights. You look for property rights\u2014the right of people to use their property in the way that they see fit\u2014and you try and find it in the 900 pages that make up the contemporary Resource Management Act, and those words cannot be found. One of the results of that is that people that want to develop their property, people who want to subdivide\u2014do you know the words \u201Cinappropriate subdivision\u201D appear in the RMA dozens and dozens of times. That\u2019s why it\u2019s so hard to subdivide\u2014because the councils won\u2019t allow it, because the RMA won\u2019t allow them. What people find when they try to use their property to build new homes and expand the supply of housing for the poorest New Zealanders is the RMA stops them doing it, time and time again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat does this piece of legislation do about that? Absolutely nothing. It introduces a new freshwater commissioner\u2014yet another bureaucrat empowered by legislation passed by this Government and this House. That doesn\u2019t help the poorest New Zealanders. It introduces climate change legislation, which should be dealt with by the emissions trading scheme but instead will become another way that disinterested persons can stop the owners of property from developing their property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat else does this bill do? It strengthens public consultation. Do you know what that means? That means that people who have no interest in your property are able to tell you what to do with it and come along and submit and obstruct, and that means fewer houses get built. That\u2019s going to be, historically, the great failing of this Government: that it promised so much on\u2014I would say it won an election on\u2014housing, and then it gave us KiwiBuild.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EIf this Government was serious, it would be reforming the Resource Management Act and making it about property rights. Do you know why it would do that? Well, another good reason is that one of the reasons there\u2019s so much opposition to development is that people whose property is actually affected often have no say. So I see people in Central Auckland who find that they\u2019re able to have property seven stories high up against their single-story home in their back yard, right up against their back fence. That\u2019s OK under a Resource Management Act that says nothing about people\u2019s rights of peaceful enjoyment of their property. But, at the same time, someone that lives in another suburb can come along and tell you that you can\u2019t develop your property even if your neighbours are quite happy with it. That\u2019s what this bill should be alleviating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EIn the Part 2 principles sections, sections 5, 6, and 7, it should be saying this bill exists so that people have the peaceful enjoyment of their property. You can\u2019t damage the environment in that regime, because to damage other people\u2019s property environmentally would be forbidden. You can\u2019t impinge on your neighbour\u2019s enjoyment of their property under that regime, but you can develop your property so long as you\u2019re not harming anyone else. That\u2019s the regime that should be debated tonight, but, tragically, it is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe result of that is, when the historians come around and say, \u201CWhat sort of Government was this?\u201D, they\u2019ll say it was a Government that came into office promising to deliver on housing and failed epically because it wasn\u2019t prepared to do the real work and reform the Resource Management Act properly, even when it had the mandate. Instead, it gave us KiwiBuild; instead, it let down the poorest New Zealanders, whose biggest cost is housing; and, instead, it lost the moral authority to govern and be respected for its success because it couldn\u2019t deal with the most important issue on its books. I have to oppose this bill because, frankly, it\u2019s pathetic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6da93d5e8434d3ebdf96c180695ee0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6da93d5e8434d3ebdf96c180695ee0a\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019m quite happy to support this bill, in contrast to the previous speaker, David Seymour, because this bill is actually what is needed in terms of approaching a very particular and specifically important issue for New Zealand, and, in part, that is around the two-stage approach to addressing our water management system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, healthy waterways are vitally important to this country. There is a birthright to all New Zealanders: that many of us believe that we should be able to swim in our rivers. Now, that is quite an emotive argument, but it is one that resonates with most people in this country. But there is a strong economic argument for why we need clean rivers and waterways and to ensure the wetlands and lakes remain pristine where they are, or get back to that point where they can be. And that is that we rely on our competitive advantage to sell our products overseas, and if we continue to let those degrade, we undermine that. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments recommended by the Environment Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002204bf9127b71245dda0d8fef5cb08b93d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d4992142c7754eb9bd007c20eaccf535\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Resource Management Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000748\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10.01 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2020060333b25b78b35643458d9e7c8f2ad6e788000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"