"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269b9455648414c33bb562b6ede77d271\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 23 JUNE 2020\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223fcfba9700564a2ab96e19044be4de20\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 23 JUNE 2020\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002212ece46915974f24a345bcfb1f83f233\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002230b8b18755b740f98135e29178cc3cca\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Police\u2014Death of Constable Matthew Hunt\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf3c336d4e924a8bb5e893093143dd69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf3c336d4e924a8bb5e893093143dd69\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice relating to the tragic death of Constable Matthew Hunt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb6ca6f64397417187880779e517276c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c03383a8cdaf415a9a4d7e4a28f86894\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That this House express its sorrow at the death of serving police officer Constable Matthew Hunt of Waitemat\u0101 Police, who died after sustaining fatal gunshot wounds in Massey on Friday, that it express its sympathies to his fellow officer who was wounded during the same incident; and it acknowledge the commitment and professionalism of his colleagues and the investigation team, who responded quickly to apprehend the alleged offenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe plaques on the walls around this Chamber tell a story of sacrifice. They tell a story of those who lost their lives in service of this country\u201428-year-old Constable Matthew Dennis Hunt was also killed serving New Zealand. As Waitemat\u0101 District Commander Naila Hassan said at the weekend, \u201Cthere is no higher price.\u201D It is a debt that we can never repay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EOn behalf of the Government and people of New Zealand, we acknowledge the grief of Matt\u2019s family. We offer our wholehearted sympathies to them, including those family members who have travelled recently to New Zealand, and we grieve for Matt alongside the wider police family. Many of his colleagues from Waitemat\u0101 district attended a karakia and haka on Sunday at the site where he lost his life. Their strong showing of support speaks to how much Matthew was loved and respected. Along with the outpouring of grief across T\u0101maki Makaurau and throughout Aotearoa, police have received messages of support from the global police family as well. After all, to lose a police officer is to lose someone working for all of us, but it\u2019s also a family member, someone\u2019s loved one, and a friend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI want to thank those who were first on the scene, who tried to help, including the health professionals who worked to treat the officers and also the bystander who was injured. Matt\u2019s death has moved people the length of this country. It touched the members of the Blues rugby team who honoured him with black armbands on Saturday\u2014a team he had supported only recently at Eden Park.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI\u2019m told Matt loved sport and that it was no coincidence his OE took place in London in time for the Rugby World Cup five years ago. His OE was part of a bigger plan to get some life experience, suggested to him by a police officer when he first expressed an interest in joining the police. When he finally applied, the person who did his recruitment interview noted that he was \u201Ca mature and skilled professional with a developed sense of resilience, excellent problem solving skills, and the ability to perform under pressure.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EHe had the ideal qualities of a police officer\u2014not just a police officer; someone who understood and served his community. Matt\u2019s previous experience was as a case manager for the Department of Corrections. He helped with the day-to-day operation of our court system as a registry support officer. His former colleagues at Corrections spoke of his star quality, and that as well as being smart, he had a good way with people. They got the impression he was born to work in the justice sector. His role as a case manager meant he worked alongside people to manage their rehabilitation and reintegration back into the community. It\u2019s no surprise his BA major was in criminology and conflict resolution. His boss at Corrections promised to keep a desk warm for him if he didn\u2019t enjoy his police career.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWhen he was accepted into recruit wing 312 at the Royal New Zealand Police College in late 2017, he went through his training with T\u0101 Mark Solomon as his wing patron. T\u0101 Mark recalls that when he first met the 60 aspiring new recruits, he was immediately struck by the passion they had for their new career. Matt did, indeed, have a star quality\u2014a star that was taken too soon. To quote \u201CFor the Fallen\u201D: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ETo the innermost heart of their own land they are known\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EAs the stars are known to the Night;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EHaere atu r\u0101 , Matt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022424d3b9827a24658b560bed8952b644f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022424d3b9827a24658b560bed8952b644f\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Firstly, can I acknowledge the Prime Minister for her comments. Thank you. Can I also acknowledge our leader for allowing me to take the call today. Matthew Hunt was not a stranger to me, and he is from my own home town of \u014Crewa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EOn Friday, 19 June 2020, at 10.30 a.m., Constable Matthew Dennis Hunt and his partner were shot in the line of duty. Matthew didn\u2019t survive his injuries. He was a loving, protective son of Diane and trusted big brother of Eleanor\u2014a tight family unit of three. I have been given the honour to share some of Diane\u2019s words with you here today, supported by Matt\u2019s father, Graeme, and his uncle and his auntie, Robert and Wendy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe first thing Diane wants to do is thank the New Zealand Police family, who have provided absolutely amazing support with their wraparound care and love of all the family since Friday. These are Diane\u2019s words: \u201CMy son has a huge team behind him. Everyone who knew Matthew knew him to be a selfless man of huge integrity. He loved serving the community. He loved serving his community and protecting his fellow New Zealanders. My heart is crying out that this was so unnecessary and tragic. He graduated with a degree in criminology from AUT, and before joining the police, Matthew worked as a case manager for Corrections and was proud of his role in helping prisoners to reintegrate with society. He was also a great paperboy. My beautiful boy\u201428 years young\u2014will never have another birthday. Matthew was raised on the Hibiscus Coast. He was a Coastie. He had all the traits of a classic Coastie: laid-back and calm, community-focused, and always with a beaming smile.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EKate Shevland, his principal from \u014Crewa College\u2014or \u201COC\u201D, as we know it\u2014shared some memories of Matt that were put together by Matt\u2019s mates and staff members who taught him. I\u2019d like to share some of those with you. Outdoor education: \u201CMatt was an absolute legend. He was part of the first ever level 3 outdoor education programme at \u014Crewa College and planned trips such as a snow camp to Mount Ruapehu and a surf camp to T\u0101wharanui. He was in the first ever Survivor \u014Crewa, a hotly contested part of the programme. The outdoor education units he helped to plan are still part of the course 10 years later. He was liked by all his peers, warm natured, and gave everything a go\u2014an amazing student.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHis English teacher: \u201CMatt was an undercover academic. He would be up there with his mates playing practical jokes on everyone, teachers included, and would then invariably meet his deadlines, with high-level work, and surprise us all.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESports: \u201CMatt and his friends were a tight group and competed for many different sports while at OC together, all in the name of fun. Playing squash for two years, they proved they weren\u2019t the greatest squash players, but they had fun doing it. Matt also played golf, bowls, and softball. In 2009, he was part of our first team to attend the secondary school softball nationals in Tauranga. In softball speak, boy did he have an arm. We needed him in the outfield, because he could throw a ball so fast and accurately from fielding it in the outskirts of the outfield that it would go straight into the infield, no need for a cut-off. On one play, he threw the ball from the back of centre outfield straight to the catcher at the home plate to get an outstanding out. We remember his beaming smile yet casual, humble manner, while everyone else in the team went nuts at how fast and smooth the throw was. He was an excellent role model for younger players, keen to learn and humble in his achievements. He was always the first to offer help to the coaches, managers, the scorers and our team umpire, and the first to thank us all for coaching and feeding them. As a founding team member, he was part of setting the goal for the following year to take out the Nationals title, which we did. Canadian softball visitors who played for HBC Softball Club said of Matt, \u201CHe was one of the boys that made us feel so loved and welcome here during our stay. One of the kindest, most caring guys we\u2019ve ever met.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHe was looked up to as a kind, caring person who had a good outlook on life and a lot to give. We already miss him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge District Commander Naila Hassan, who has shown strength and compassion in the days following Matt\u2019s death. I\u2019d also like to acknowledge Matt\u2019s police family in \u014Crewa: Area Commander Mark Fergus and his entire team. Mark, and Matthew\u2019s supervisors, had this to say about him, \u201CMatt is remembered by his supervisors as a highly intelligent and professional officer, one who is diligent and committed to keeping safe the community that he grew up in. He had a promising career ahead of him and intended to take on the challenge of becoming a detective in our criminal investigation branch. He was expected to excel in that role. He was rated very highly by his supervisors and was held in the highest trust and integrity.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EOn Friday evening, I had the privilege of joining Matt\u2019s section, friends, and colleagues who came together to support one another and talk through the tragedy that had unfolded earlier that day. The stories and memories of Matt had a common theme: he was a deeply kind young man, and no one could recount a time when Matt had a bad word for anyone. He was known for his calm and considerate approach to his policing. He had developed the art of de-escalating tense or potentially violent situations. One story was an incident he had attended where he was confronted by an offender armed with a knife. Although he would have been completely justified in using other tactical options, he used a calm, clear, direct communication to completely de-escalate the situation and have the offender put the knife down. He is much loved by his police family, and our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EMatt, you aren\u2019t here to put your strong arms around your Mum, or your sister, but know that your police family and community are putting our strong arms around them for you. When I was a young constable in 1991, a song from The Hollies was used in a police video highlighting the importance of police and community working together to make our community safer. The words from this song are still as relevant today as they were 28 years ago, when Matt was just a baby. The words to the song go like this:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe road is long\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWith many a winding turn\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThat leads us to who knows where\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWho knows where\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m strong\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EStrong enough to carry him\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHe ain\u2019t heavy, he\u2019s my brother\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo on we go\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHis welfare is of my concern\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ENo burden is he to bear\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ll get there\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EFor I know\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHe would not encumber me\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHe ain\u2019t heavy, he\u2019s my brother\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIf I\u2019m laden at all\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI\u2019m laden with sadness\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThat everyone\u2019s heart\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIsn\u2019t filled with the gladness\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EOf love for one another\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a long, long road\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EFrom which there is no return\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe load doesn\u2019t weigh me down at all\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHe ain\u2019t heavy, he\u2019s my brother\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s my brother\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHe ain\u2019t heavy, he\u2019s my brother.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002249d7ef3bf2b146cfbec16ba06288e440\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249d7ef3bf2b146cfbec16ba06288e440\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the New Zealand First Party, we extend our sympathies to the family and friends of Constable Matthew Hunt, as well as the wider police community. An appalling tragedy, Constable Hunt\u2019s death demonstrates the risk that police officers face every day. We\u2019re also reminded of the 32 New Zealand police officers who fell before him. That is a sobering glimpse into the dangers that our law officers face whilst maintaining the safety of all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBeing a police officer is not an easy job. Many officers are exposed to violence and disorder on a daily basis, allowing the general public to carry out their lives with levels of security unthinkable in other countries. We are all indebted to officers like Constable Hunt for their service to New Zealand in the most dangerous of circumstances. Constable Hunt paid the ultimate price for the cowardly actions of a criminal, one who we hope to see incarcerated for the longest period of time for which the law allows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EConstable Hunt represented the best that the New Zealand police force has to offer. He was a consummate professional who served his country with distinction and honour. Mr Speaker and colleagues, police lives matter. May he rest in peace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6ef8c33e75045c18816b7bb9b55b933\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6ef8c33e75045c18816b7bb9b55b933\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of Marama Davidson and the Green Party, I want to begin by expressing my condolences to the family of Constable Matthew Hunt. I\u2019d also like to send our thoughts and our well wishes to his friends, his colleagues, and his fellow officers all over the country, who, I know, are feeling his loss deeply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EFor Constable Hunt, Friday would have begun like any other day. Like most of us, he would have got up, had breakfast, maybe checked the news or caught up with messages from friends and family, and then set off for a day at work doing what he had always wanted to do. But unlike those of us here, Constable Hunt knew that from the moment he got to work, he could be called upon at any moment to put his life in harm\u2019s way for the safety of somebody else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EWhen our police officers answer a call, they never do it alone. Their family and their friends answer the call too, for they share in the risk that their loved ones take every day to keep New Zealand safe for all of us. The call that Constable Hunt answered on Friday would, I\u2019m sure, have sounded a lot like other calls that he and his colleagues had answered many times before. But what happened is a heartbreaking reminder that whatever the call, the life of a police officer, a loved one, a friend, a colleague can be taken away at any moment\u2014a moment in which Constable Hunt\u2019s friends and family can go from looking forward to catching up with him at the weekend or maybe grabbing a beer after work to being told that he was gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, I know that there will many people across New Zealand who will struggle to come to terms with what happened. People will ask themselves, \u201CHow could this have happened? What do we need to do to prevent another tragedy?\u201D And that is entirely understandable. Police officers have a right to go home to their families just like everybody else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EFew of us here will ever match the sacrifice Constable Hunt has made, but we can match his commitment to making New Zealand a better place, which is why I\u2019d like to close with a message for Constable Hunt\u2019s mother, Diane, and his sister, Eleanor. The thoughts of New Zealand are with you. We thank you for the service of your son and your brother.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EE tama, haere atu r\u0101. Haere ki te p\u014D, kia moe ai. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E[Young man, go. Go to the long night, to sleep.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1905d5f04db440ca4656afc0db6315f\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022121666927af0468bb9fc5299901f5cde\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e228f4a0bea47abb3aceec35221487f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec9c0dceaec64e6486a3e77e28b3f216\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec9c0dceaec64e6486a3e77e28b3f216\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement, \u201Cwe had an expectation that testing was happening in day 3 and day 12 at the moment we went into alert level 1\u201D; if so, on what factual basis was that expectation formed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc948a37004048518139c5359d4ddfb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc948a37004048518139c5359d4ddfb7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E At the beginning of June, my office sought to confirm the testing that was taking place at alert level 1, including high-risk areas. On 5 June, the Ministry of Health emailed a response stating, \u201CTesting of people entering New Zealand will commence in the week of 8 June 2020. These people will be tested at day three and day 12 of their stay in the managed isolation facilities. Approximately 3,000 tests will be undertaken of these people, including those who are already in the facility.\u201D On 8 June, the same advice was provided to Cabinet in an update from the Ministry of Health. On 9 June, the Ministry of Health released a press release which stated, \u201CFrom today, everyone in managed isolation will be tested twice for COVID-19 and will require a negative test before they leave. Those in quarantine were already being tested as they had shown prior symptoms.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221565766a16dd46428d303637ea9f963b\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Did her Government have the authority to require someone to have a COVID test in quarantine or managed isolation when the policy was announced on 8 June?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206ecb9550fff4a2c8e543285072e4f0b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5c723a6356a4ac7b953f6307cf4e517\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, has testing been voluntary between 8 June and the issuing of a new public health order yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228289b555cd6e4c2cb5a45d6401fad0a4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve made very clear, the instruction of the Director-General of Health was not being correctly deployed at the assisted isolation facilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af1f87e76fb64ec5968c098cfb882246\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: When did the Prime Minister get informed that, despite her expectations of mandatory testing in quarantine and self-isolation from 8 June, that in fact was not happening?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d5ae97fd53d4a22829d9439dc2776cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be aware\u2014as the rest of New Zealand is aware\u2014that that happened last week, at the time of the case being identified of the compassionate leave being granted without testing being deployed. So whilst I don\u2019t want to give a precise figure, it was roughly sometime thereafter in the last seven days, but as the member can see from the reassurances we were being given directly by the Ministry of Health and also the public statements being made by the Ministry of Health, up until that point it was certainly our view that people were being tested twice and being tested before departure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b78224a148c646d4bfe3df8b6d5423ad\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, has testing been voluntary between 8 June and the announcement of the public health order yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbb9051027dc41d1abdf7a62de658cfe\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The clear point is that it shouldn\u2019t have been. The order was an enabler, and enabled testing to take place. The clear view of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022608ac27c663e479184ddc77f2fd81466\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I think all of us know that this is important, and I want to be able to hear the response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e6c0608b914bda807f244336ba402c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: And, as I\u2019ve clearly stated, there\u2019s multiple points at which the Ministry of Health itself was issuing statements claiming that was what was happening in managed isolation facilities. So, clearly, what was meant to be happening wasn\u2019t, and that is something that we\u2019ve been very open about and have worked decisively to correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202e88d288bd4423e9afef2f567d3b8a3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Prime Minister\u2019s understanding that nobody has left a managed isolation facility since this weekend, despite the health order not coming into play until yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dba0da508004282acd0168d1a85b2fa\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s exactly correct. The point that the Minister is making there is that the order clearly always created the environment where that mandatory testing could take place. It wasn\u2019t happening; that has nothing to do with the order. It was very clear from the director-general two tests were meant to be taking place, and certainly one before exit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b68711ae28e94aa592d2167a66e40224\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Why did a person in managed isolation on 18 June receive a Ministry of Health form saying that they had the right to refuse a COVID test, with a stapled overlay saying that testing was now compulsory?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a43e37391a07467db53ad613effc5006\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: And it always was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e9e4b1ae3c94714998351393b3582aa\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister believe that devolving the management of quarantine arrangements to individual tertiary education providers, as advocated by the Opposition, would increase or decrease the risk of non-compliance with quarantine measures? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226d61c2c3abb417581e398579f292fd0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Increase. In fact, I have heard countless members, including the Leader of the Opposition, talk about opening up the borders. I absolutely stand by the position of this Government that the border is an area that we must be absolutely cautious around. That has not been the position of the Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fc8dedcee9e47a3acc0fe214b33b480\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Prime Minister please explain how it is possible to announce alert level 1, saying testing now will be occurring in day three and day 12, yet emails from the Ministry of Health on 19 June state \u201Cconsent is required before a test is taken\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022353ca9457c4d44b6bd3ac3c99ad7a194\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That is not what the order states, so that is incorrect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203d0c530113c4091930ea8aa73bfa554\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I\u2019d just ask the Prime Minister again: is she disputing the Ministry of Health email on 19 June stating\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cconsent is required before a test is taken\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022692b8a08b0af4a6b803fe43994c50ef2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The order at that time: \u201CI require all persons arriving in New Zealand to report and submit themselves as soon as practical after their arrival for testing and for medical examination.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022621a039bf6334d958745104949f85d54\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: To the Prime Minister: are you disputing\u2014are you disputing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022146716508750419f8d92562f994670fe\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222325146b06c34b54b20ea567135c99f9\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014sorry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261ae21a98ae341fc997c016b0f09f30e\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: New member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c49c63208c9a41fbb7e0645a201a17a3\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: New member\u2014yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ec0362fa7614f989df7c5404df4bc61\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e9b67542b5d4ff19c3be8131cb07393\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: At least three off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea22b10443b84b9bb38ba123238e3185\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hipkins. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022663a4c4e92784f6988a89e1771112878\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we\u2019ll take five. [Todd Muller points downwards]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a63f343c083444db6a44bcc79cbca26\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: To the Prime Minister\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c492e133ba3442f9b279de992fe8b91\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right\u2014no, no, the member will sit down. The people on my right will just\u2014I\u2019m trying to think of an appropriate set of words\u2014behave themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a10497491b74797a7c55f330ac212ad\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I repeat the question to the Prime Minister: is she disputing that I have an email from the Ministry of Health from 19 June stating\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cconsent is required before a test is taken\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d4c1d3d951540ad9d93df47c5270449\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I point to the language of the order. I point to the three different times at which the director-general and the Ministry of Health have said that everyone would require a negative test before they were able to leave. Though the wider point that I also wish to make: there are two countries in the world\u2014in the world\u2014comparable to New Zealand that are requiring this form of quarantine. We are one of the few in the world that I can find that are also requiring compulsion of testing. I stand by the stringency of our border measures. I see the member has only recently decided that the border matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4f30de3608345ffae52a81c7dff8f04\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Prime Minister: has the 18 June document with the stapled-over portion that Mr Muller referred to, or, for that matter, the 19 June document, been referred to her or the Minister of Health, or are we expected to believe these allegations without any evidence whatsoever? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213fd207d7b84451fa75866bbfde71541\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, there was evidence last week that members on that side of the House were not prioritising the public health of New Zealanders, but, rather, politics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5f6f07c55e249758f737f499ed688a7\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Does she really believe the country can take her seriously when she says that at the core of her view is a strident border, when the Prime Minister announces on 8 June there is mandatory testing, but has to wait until yesterday to formally confirm it for the country? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0a7586930254de9be6099b6ce523a0d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That is factually incorrect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7d8d03e876e4cd89e3b098e05093e61\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Does she or her Minister of Health have any idea of what is going on in the quarantine facilities and managed isolation facilities of this country when you have a clear view that it is mandatory, but for two weeks it has been voluntary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d55d1b77abf48d080151ff5f84ee435\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014there actually wasn\u2019t a properly authenticated question in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225656f63fe75417396f136455bba1f46\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Prime Minister: has she or her colleagues or the Minister of Health prepared the protocols and requirements for safeguarding the health of New Zealand\u2019s population, should we open the border with China, as recommended by the National Party? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b19ab258b9a149d9842cdb1ce8564cb7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member is right to point out that the Opposition repeatedly not only urged us to rush towards level 1; they repeatedly urged us to open up the border. We have consistently resisted that in favour of ensuring that New Zealanders\u2019 safety is the number one priority\u2014that we treat the border with absolute caution. We have some of the most stringent restrictions in the world. There is no playbook for this pandemic, but I stand by the restrictions that we have in place to keep New Zealanders safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1c0804af5a44172bf3b133b8b1a7d28\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. What was out of order with the question that the Leader of the Opposition asked and the Prime Minister was not required to answer? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4aa6cd6f8cb452885261bba47622f78\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I won\u2019t go through the list, but there were I think at least two assertions in the question which were not supported. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d42461142a1455b92f6df239a71c244\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Why, then, is it appropriate for you to accept an answer to a question from the Deputy Prime Minister to the Prime Minister in which there is a totally untrue assertion made? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2f28c35ddbc4dd497faeaaeadc79a1b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I did not accept an answer at all. It was an answer to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d157f6935dc34692969f7e722d527eca\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u002276ba88e9368245c3adace9ba3b87bba7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276ba88e9368245c3adace9ba3b87bba7\u0022\u003ETAMATI COFFEY (Labour\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: He aha ng\u0101 r\u012Bpoata hou kua kitea e ia m\u014D te \u014Dhanga o Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E[What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0e048415fbe45f29e5c7b5ffaf38e04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0e048415fbe45f29e5c7b5ffaf38e04\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E ASB economists this week reported that their real-time estimate of unemployment in New Zealand was a little over 6 percent, based on job seeker numbers from the Ministry of Social Development. In recent weeks, economists, including ASB\u2019s, have revised down their forecasts of the peak in New Zealand\u2019s unemployment rate to around 8 percent, as new data comes out on the New Zealand economy. New Zealand went hard and early with our economic plan to cushion the blow for businesses and households from the global recession caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. It is welcoming to see that the actions of all New Zealanders, and the benefits of opening up the economy under level 2 and level 1 earlier than expected, are contributing to better than expected economic outcomes for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292590e71b5f74865b8bd2afdeb222e63\u0022\u003ETamati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on the international context for the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299d3c672eed14e93ae90bd84bd6c8bab\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The global recession due to the COVID-19 pandemic has been felt around the world. The UK reported that economic activity fell 20 percent during the month of April, from March, due to the lockdown. At the end of April, the UK economy was 25 percent smaller than in February. Last week, the Australian unemployment rate rose to 7.1 percent in May, up from 5.1 percent three months ago. Forecasts by the Reserve Bank of Australia are for the unemployment rate there to peak at around 8 percent\u2014the same as now being forecast for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bd46a333e0d457bbd0c272e7d0aba33\u0022\u003ETamati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: How does the New Zealand economy compare to the UK and Australia in terms of restrictions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022643a820aecb34397a5b2a7ce3c36b396\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: While New Zealand had one of the most stringent lockdowns around the world, our decision to go hard and early with our health response has meant that our economy has been able to open up faster than others around the world. The UK still has stringent controls in place, with the Oxford University Government response stringency index rating them at 70.37 out of 100 in terms of their restrictions. The stringency index rates Australia at 53.7 out of 100. In comparison, New Zealand sits as one of the most open economies in the world, with a score at 19.44 out of 100\u2014better than Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea. New Zealand went into the global COVID-19 pandemic with a strong and stable economy, and now we are one of the most open economies heading out of the lockdown, due to the success and sacrifice of the team of 5 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3f61b0804bb4690ba764a32ba8f741c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022be579be7309a4cdd9a41cd4a815c478d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E3. Hon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be579be7309a4cdd9a41cd4a815c478d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What is he doing to monitor the success of major Government spending initiatives, including the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00220d82afc0f91d4011a8675c4c4a2fee6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d82afc0f91d4011a8675c4c4a2fee6e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E There are a number of ways the Government monitors major spending initiatives, including through regular reporting by agencies and Treasury as well as the Auditor-General\u2019s process. Given the significant amount of funding allocated for the response to COVID-19, I receive regular updates about major initiatives, including the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme. Individual agencies have plans and milestones for projects, which I also monitor, and a team has been established to do this specifically for the COVID response and recovery fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f861d9a84bda4347b296ad1e44e1f976\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he consider it a failure of his that the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme, which he established, has only delivered $86 million in business loans when it was originally budgeted to deliver $6.25 billion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5b1423fce524fd5ace3374b6e0f26ba\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, that was an envelope of funding provided. The scheme is still open.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253af715489b04ef0ab5026cc28ee5d26\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Is he disappointed, then, that the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme has only delivered 1.4 percent of the lending it was supposed to, a lower rate of delivery than even KiwiBuild?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7bfb610188f42339594046dd265a11e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my answer to the previous supplementary question, the scheme is still open. In the meantime, we have opened the Small Business Cashflow (Loan) Scheme, which has given out well over $1 billion to small businesses, and there are a range of other initiatives available as well. The concerns I\u2019ve had with the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme have been documented in this House, and where there are specific concerns for specific customers, they\u2019re followed up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022996aea1fdf5f4deb957f25d04bf11f32\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government require banks to apply normal lending criteria to loans made under the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f25c02ebd9914c019cb63fc202794050\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government underwrote the scheme to the extent of taking 80 percent of the risk, given the economic uncertainty that was at play when the scheme was established. From our perspective, banks will interpret their own rules around lending. Some of them have applied much more liberal rules in terms of lending criteria; others have provided tighter rules. That is up to them. We are underwriting the scheme to 80 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261bb78d018694e19badde175204432d0\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to a business owner in Tauranga who was hoping to benefit from the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme but was told by his bank manager that \u201Cit was just too hard to get the applications over the line because of the Government\u2019s red tape and recommended they go for an overdraft instead.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b34aa0b11c5042389c7222b89172ba07\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t speak for the specific case, other than to note that\u2014from the same article that the member is reading from\u2014the business owner had to provide paperwork, including cash-flow forecasts, plans for how the business was coping with the crisis, and how it would pay back the loan, which seem to me to be fairly reasonable elements of a loan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a28aed8d0cf4a66a3b028de9c07bacd\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why would he think businesses would want to take on additional debt in the middle of a crisis when they have been calling for direct cash support, such as the $100,000 GST refund proposal put forward by National?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256cb47c752fd43179a4b08cc236d5fce\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Direct cash support has gone to businesses in the form of around $11 billion through the wage subsidy scheme, which many of them have written to us to say how important that has been in maintaining their business. Other schemes and funds are available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c4dc44b8ace24c21998f05c447738814\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022089def7b65094fb88f8eb28c1509baf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022089def7b65094fb88f8eb28c1509baf6\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: How many people left quarantine or managed isolation between 23 May and 16 June, and how many of those people, if any, left without a COVID-19 test being taken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c70f114f969e44d396ca0c1007c32c39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c70f114f969e44d396ca0c1007c32c39\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m advised by the all-of-Government group that the total number of people who have left a managed isolation or quarantine facility between 23 May and 16 June was 4,694. The Ministry of Health have, to date, been unable to provide the number who have left without a test and are still working through that matter. The Government\u2019s expectation was that these people completed 14 days of managed isolation, which is in line with public health advice of the most effective measure to protect New Zealand against COVID-19 spread. Relying on the 14-day period is the best defence, as evidenced by the extensive surveillance testing that has been ongoing, which has yet to find any evidence of community transmission since 1 May. But as the Prime Minister has said in the House today, Ministers were assured by the Ministry of Health that as we move to level 1, as an additional layer of assurance, no one would leave managed isolation or quarantine without returning a negative test. There have been well-documented issues with those expectations, translating into operational change, and that\u2019s exactly what myself and Air Commodore Webb have begun fixing. Following the implementation of our plan of strengthening procedures at our facilities, no one is leaving without returning a negative test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc43642193d64bac817ee7af513c9012\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Is it possible that every person released after 14 days of managed isolation between those days was released without being COVID tested?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d204d0831b35435895b6347c2362e6d6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: From the evidence that I have seen in terms of the number of people that left, it is not possible that that was the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022072f1696aedb4bdabb8554f47fbeee7e\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: How can she be that confident in her answer, if she has no idea what testing occurred during those dates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e399bbb209d94fff8e1b5d9cc9757692\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Because I have been advised by the Ministry of Health that some people were receiving testing between those dates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb484548948f4a65bda4707ab54e02e2\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think it completely implausible that despite finding 11 cases in seven days after quarantine testing commenced, there were no positive cases in quarantine for the previous 24 days, when there was no testing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff6af7a7cd464cbbbafe2aa7e7731265\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Surveillance testing would suggest that it is entirely plausible that we didn\u2019t have cases. What the member needs to realise is the changing demographic inside our managed isolation and quarantine facilities. As the world opens up, we see people arriving, either transiting through Australia or coming directly from other parts of the world in a place where COVID is growing, not slowing. I am not surprised that we are seeing people who are in our managed isolation facilities with COVID. The important thing is that we are catching these within these facilities, and this is a strong line of defence to New Zealanders and the gains they have made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1ecd815b29d4355ac27412d742a6d71\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: In respect of that previous answer, what was demographically different about the 4,694 people released from quarantine in that period from the more than 10,000 who went through managed isolation and quarantine prior to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e62dbdb16c3442cadb26538fcfa15ac\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Largely, where those people arrived from. What we have is, through the early days, when we were in level 4, a lot of people returning to New Zealand were returning from Australia, where there were much lower rates of COVID. What the member needs to understand is that now we are seeing people returning from the UK. We are seeing people returning from the USA. We are seeing people return from India. We are seeing people return from Pakistan. These are all parts of the globe where COVID is growing, not slowing, and it is our strong line of defence at the border that we have managed isolation and quarantine facilities that will protect the gains that New Zealand has made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0c477c1caaf48568bac8437c3d22aa6\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has she been advised that the number of positive tests at the border in other comparable countries, like Australia, has also been increasing, and that we\u2019re likely to see an ongoing increase in the number of positive tests at the border?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c639fc5efb1c43b886f5967780aa20a0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly have. The whole point, when we have positive tests in our quarantine facilities and managed isolation facilities, is that the system is working\u2014that this is part of how it is that we protect New Zealanders against quarantine. I\u2019d like to point out it is the ability to carefully manage and robustly manage these facilities that will protect New Zealanders, not ad hoc announcements about just opening the border without any plan of how you\u2019re going to manage those facilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022350c1c8964f04aaa861a6f5cfd846704\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: In respect of her previous answer to me, is it her submission to this House that New Zealanders were not arriving back from the UK, Europe, the United States, and the subcontinent prior to 23 May?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c1520b64e66441ab709196a3917fd39\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course New Zealanders were arriving back prior to that, but we did not have mandatory managed isolation; we had people self-isolating. If the member wants to turn his mind back to the days when we were in level 4, we had a growing number of cases testing positive that largely were coming from people returning from overseas. The difference the member now needs to understand is these people are not returning to their homes; they are in managed isolation facilities as a stronger manner of defence. What the member also has to understand is we are now at over 8.5 million cases of COVID around the world. This is growing, not slowing, and I suggest that member stop politicking and think about how it is that we protect New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249ab4e80e2c64549aefb46fc63ecbbd8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If the Opposition thesis is true, would we have had those countless weeks, and even existing now, without any community transmission in this country at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a3c25e545d44ea7a2c96a7411e5b30e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Deputy Prime Minister should know he can\u2019t ask a Minister what the Opposition thinks, which is the wording he used in his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221a7f8094954475cbec0ac3c7dfbbc0b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think that\u2019s what he said at all. I\u2019ll ask him to repeat the question for the member\u2019s benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f671c1144ef64e5f9704fcd01ade42fb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll do it slowly, and I\u2019ve got a picture if I have to show it as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229994d83297034cd8838c3d5c7c622c62\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019ll check in Hansard. That\u2019s what he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd0122521cb34618b6faad7de2464d5e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! What I said was I didn\u2019t think that\u2019s what he said and I\u2019ll ask him to repeat is so we know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ab3dba872694fcd96bae75d129da1ad\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If the Opposition thesis is true, then how would we have had all these weeks without community transmission in this country, even right to this hour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022033feebe95a94b0892bf0eebf4fa0e91\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: The member is absolutely correct. New Zealanders can have faith that what we have in place has put them in an incredibly privileged position through their weeks of sacrifice. All we are asking of New Zealanders that are now returning to New Zealand to re-join our team of 5 million is that they make two weeks of sacrifice of going into managed isolation. We got to this privileged position by all of us making a sacrifice of five weeks. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022534159e3569e42508ef38242e0c14c9e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Jacqui Dean will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293c157c805ca4dcf941f22fd33b73bda\u0022\u003EHon Jacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220130c2674cf6478c80550fc7f6f4ca0d\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that the enforcement of the testing regime would be more or less rigorous if it was delegated to individual tertiary education providers, including the universities, who don\u2019t think the border should have been closed in the first place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a278f0423d00407592e58f0fd83b0c76\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I think one of the things that everybody has to understand is the complexity of the operations that need to be run at the border.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fb3e53a9a4b48f49636b4e02ad7435b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s simple\u2014just test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022979834365b6c486995a5187a36e62c8f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I hear members of the Opposition say it\u2019s simple. I\u2019d like to point out that to the end of June, we will have spent $81 million with a workforce of over 500. It\u2019s not simply booking a hotel. The operations that have to be onsite are incredibly complex and logistically difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b68dcbfbc74a1f9f74176474e08930\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Prime Minister that \u201CThe 14 days is actually the most cautious approach. Belts and braces are testing, but the 14 days is what matters.\u201D, and, if so, why is testing important now, when it wasn\u2019t three weeks ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcad4b79c1fa48e68cc0958ecce603ef\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question: always. In answer to the second part of the question, as we have moved into level 1, as we have moved into a more relaxed state, where we have more liberties and more mingling, our Government is determined to make sure we are putting an extra layer of defence to protect the gains that New Zealanders have made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bcd9566b3e9e477cabb2e170141aa254\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002277e57a0c382c427fb01f1adda26bf0df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277e57a0c382c427fb01f1adda26bf0df\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What action has the Government taken to strengthen managed isolation and quarantine facilities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002296a230d4bee84fb4bf13519e627d022b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296a230d4bee84fb4bf13519e627d022b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E After taking ministerial responsibility for these facilities last week, I worked with Air Commodore Webb on a swift 72-hour plan to ensure procedures at our managed isolation and quarantine facilities are rigorous and robust. In the first 72 hours, there were two major objectives: (1) that we confirmed strict adherence of the rules by the returnees, and (2) that we ensured testing was undertaken and negative results returned to everybody before they leave. Alongside immediate measures to achieve these objectives, Air Commodore Webb commissioned an urgent end-to-end review of the facilities, which is well under way. I make no apologies for the strict measures we are introducing. Our managed isolation and quarantine facilities are an important line of defence against COVID-19. New Zealanders spent five weeks in level 4 lockdown. We expect those returning to our team of 5 million to play their part with two weeks in managed isolation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a87bea1ab5a452ca436825b4c9745e7\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What were the specific actions taken to achieve those objectives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a83bb02eb7a64dc9ba60df73c2e0c11e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Last Wednesday, Air Commodore Webb and myself visited managed isolation and quarantine facilities in Auckland. This was followed by a personal briefing to all New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) operational personnel at managed facilities to reiterate our expectations. Alongside this, we doubled the number of NZDF personnel on the ground and boosted the police presence both on site and with specifically assigned after-hours support. There are now new lockdown procedures in place where cases are identified, including a review of CCTV footage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022477bffe767584f24bcd1fd5a48d707b4\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What are the challenges associated with running these facilities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231b4b305e27c4da3877039e7c359e046\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: These operations are extremely complex and require sophisticated operational oversight, which is exactly why we now have the NZDF in control. The fundamental job that needs to be completed is carefully matching supply with demand. On the demand side, while we do have forecasts of the numbers entering New Zealand, we cannot know how many people will show up until they turn up at the airport and check in. What we\u2019ve seen in recent times is a significant uptick in the number of New Zealanders returning home, requiring additional supply and resources to meet that demand. COVID-19 is growing, not slowing, as the rest of the world opens up and people return home from higher-risk areas. But our plan is working and our managed isolation and quarantine facilities are ensuring that we keep New Zealand safe and COVID contained in these facilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209e659f9871541e498151a8163f4db0a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Economic Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002255f4e0e54f4247c3b892acc6d8ba74f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255f4e0e54f4247c3b892acc6d8ba74f7\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: Does he stand by his statement of 1 April 2020, \u201CThe Government has tasked a group of industry leaders to seek out infrastructure projects that are ready to start as soon as the construction industry returns to normal to reduce the economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic\u201D; if so, when does he expect to announce those projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6125d31704d47e9b2a6cfd585bb4f98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6125d31704d47e9b2a6cfd585bb4f98\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Associate Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Economic Development: On behalf of the Minister for Economic Development, yes. To the second part of the question, announcement time frames for each project are a matter for the appropriate, responsible Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222c5c5ddf39448ebba81acfd2e3d9bd9\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How does he reconcile his statement that the projects would be \u201Cready to start as soon as the construction industry returns to normal\u201D with the fact that the construction industry started returning to work on April 28 but the projects still have not been announced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cffcb8c3cd16420cb7209d9e5dc3d18f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I refer the member to the Budget recently debated, which showed that, under Budget 2020, Crown infrastructure investment is forecast to be $10.9 billion, which is about 175 percent of what it was in 2017 under the last Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274475c9626ce4cbd8d2a34746ba03a6a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to ask the Minister to address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022301bbaec9ba74588895f06df9e4885b3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said in my answer that I just gave, the member can be very confident that there is significantly increased infrastructure expenditure, as evidenced by the Budget debate that we have had in recent weeks, which showed that $10.9 billion of infrastructure expenditure by the Crown is forecast for the current year, which is 175 percent of what it was in 2017.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269277e596846413fac554564299eeddf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to ask the Hon Judith Collins to ask the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfa025dfa9c0439db994051ba2ad2ce6\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. How does he reconcile his statement that the projects would be \u201Cready to start as soon as the construction industry returns to normal\u201D with the fact that the construction industry started returning to work on 28 \u00A0April and the projects still have not been announced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022486481874b7f43178ffaec65bc2f1743\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: In addition to my prior answer, I would also note that the Minister of Education advised the Minister for Economic Development that construction has already started on approximately 200 rebuilds or expansions, with a combined value of $1.5 billion. He also advised me that at the end of May around 1,200 schools had initiated projects worth an estimated $130 million since that investment package was announced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f66279e3ac6444f3bb0eea8cdd7cf8f7\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think the Government is acting with sufficient urgency to announce these projects\u2014other than that which he\u2019s just announced now\u2014given that the fall in construction was the biggest contributor to the decline in GDP in the first quarter of this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a65a50140d7c4046b41502b93ea731e7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and by way of other examples, since lockdown the following transport projects have started construction: the Clive safety improvements to State Highway 51, upgrades to the Northland line, preparatory works for the Matakana link road, the Huapai to Waimauku safety improvements, the Medallion Drive link road, and I could go on\u2014it\u2019s a long list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eecabc27f91949a59618c0fbd2cddd27\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister state that the projects would be \u201Cready to start as soon as the construction industry returns to normal\u201D, when, clearly, the projects were not started as soon as the construction industry returned to normal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022426c2cf84a024db1a9323adcf8424962\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the premise of the question as evidenced by the transport projects I listed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245c449fc8f0e4694bc2392d418805564\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: What reports, if any, has he seen on the number of construction jobs that have been lost due to his delay in announcing which projects will proceed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e814aa9ae23646e59a81b854cf5420da\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I, again, reject the premise of that question. I think the construction industry is sophisticated enough to know that when the Government is spending more than $10 billion in this year there\u2019s a pipeline of infrastructure projects on the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc0e023af6e24b8e917865c82a2e8cd8\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Hamilton mayor, Paula Southgate, who said that the construction firms that relied on her council\u2019s work programme needed answers on whether the Government was going to come to the rescue and fund infrastructure projects, and that \u201CIt would be ideal if we knew in the next couple of weeks and no later\u201D; if so, when will he advise the Mayor of Hamilton, Paula Southgate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6f360d93a1345458a2e9dd98100fb59\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with the mayor that construction projects are an important part of the Government\u2019s response to the recession caused by COVID-19, and I\u2019ve already covered the financials which show that approximately 175 percent of 2017 expenditure is forecast for this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226041a842838f4a14a6ff683cdd5f2f11\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Climate Change\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u00220d85be8a322840438452ca3933788f3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d85be8a322840438452ca3933788f3c\u0022\u003EMARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Climate Change: What recent announcements has he made about New Zealand Green Investment Finance decisions on climate change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u00227525902cdf0042d798bb9c71b7629598\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227525902cdf0042d798bb9c71b7629598\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Last Thursday, I announced New Zealand Green Investment Finance Ltd\u2019s first ever investment. New Zealand Green Investment Finance has provided Wellington CentrePort with a $15 million green credit facility. The lending will be used to fund low-carbon projects such as electric vehicles, on-site renewable energy generation, and energy efficiency upgrades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa2d33b016854f5492f0761a204c73d1\u0022\u003EMarama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Why does New Zealand Green Investment Finance have to invest on a commercial basis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c34de8c7e0c41e7a87847a14dfbda99\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Developing sustainable long-term solutions to the climate crisis requires good ideas, planning, and focus. New Zealand Green Investment Finance Ltd was set up to support those businesses with the skills and outlook necessary to create lasting change in New Zealand. Throwing money around with no eye to commercial viability will not funnel support to the firms with the best plans and the best ideas. By ensuring commercial discipline, New Zealand Green Investment Finance Ltd will also be able to get their capital back and reinvest earnings into more low-carbon projects, creating a virtuous cycle of sustainable investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223acd863e0fef4d64934bb1b0fcb9d5aa\u0022\u003EMarama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: What will this investment mean for Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270009cd17ac445419cb1c861b94188cf\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Successful investment in electrification, renewables, and efficiency will not only assist the port to achieve its climate goals but will also provide an example for other firms in the port sector and beyond. Electrifying our transport and logistics sector is one of the lowest cost decarbonisation options that we have. Transport and logistics make up one-fifth of our total emissions and continue to rise. Investments like this one are a key part of the solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e04c399cd95948de87d017635337e06d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022a37d50f4dada452e81fad465fecf532f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a37d50f4dada452e81fad465fecf532f\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Has the chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency written to him advising of a shortfall of at least $1 billion in the National Land Transport Fund; if so, what impacts, if any, would this shortfall have on transport projects due for funding through the National Land Transport Fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00225c5b3f3cf144444e83c6cba564013489\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c5b3f3cf144444e83c6cba564013489\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Transport: As you\u2019d expect, New Zealanders did not drive as much during alert levels 2, 3, and 4 while they stayed at home. This, naturally, has had an impact on the revenue raised from petrol excise duty and road-user charges. We\u2019re still working through the impacts of this on the National Land Transport Fund. Yes, the chair of the agency wrote to me in April and in May outlining scenarios, noting that the estimates provided were, at that point, very uncertain. Those estimates were made before we moved down to alert level 1, and given the earlier than expected move down the alert levels, I\u2019m advised that the total impact is already likely to be less than the chair had initially indicated. I\u2019d like to reassure the member that we are continuing to work through the implications and are aiming to avoid a hypothetical scenario where any projects may be delayed by any shortfall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6ae14b19a3747e5b0cdb0454a8a3823\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the letter suggests that projects that aren\u2019t road-building projects be cancelled or delayed in order to address the funding shortfall?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229737e6c4953b49339798bff11c68f446\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, the letter set out a range of scenarios, and already the worst-case scenario has not happened, because we moved down the alert levels faster. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d4f6ee9d08b4f8b8cfde67279dd97cd\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Did the chair of the Transport Agency suggest any particular funding categories that should be reprioritised as the result of the funding shortfall, and if so, what were those categories?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c4539f1710d4537b12a6b1b24d02708\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my first and second answers, the letters contained a variety of scenarios and a variety of options. The worst-case scenario has not eventuated, because we moved down alert levels faster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ca984e4ff754b66acadc164c249f912\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Will he rule out any projects being cut from the current National Land Transport Programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206e16aa4570e4fce98c599d2c650e884\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has no intention of doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002200bcfe29a29a44ccaa529402c21f10e8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u002255b85259ce5546d8ba57a240966e4aa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255b85259ce5546d8ba57a240966e4aa3\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What action is the Government taking to support New Zealanders to retrain for new employment opportunities post-COVID-19?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab7020e6e77044e29dffb1d139b2faf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab7020e6e77044e29dffb1d139b2faf6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The Government was working to strengthen and promote vocational education options to New Zealanders even before COVID-19 hit. We\u2019ve been focusing on raising the profile of trades and vocational education, and encouraging more people to take up those careers. Since COVID-19, we\u2019re removing the fees on all apprenticeships and a wide range of other trades and vocational education programmes from next Wednesday until the end of 2022. We\u2019ll be financially supporting and encouraging employers to keep their apprentices earning and learning, with wage subsidies of up to $16,000 per apprentice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef33a372c5324716b074f61ae170da3f\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Has COVID-19 and the lockdown had an impact on the initiatives to raise the profile of vocational education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2f5cefbb93048d8a1bcee2e9c494d12\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Inevitably, yes. A number of events that were designed to connect schools, communities, and employers had to be delayed, although I am advised that most are now in the process of being rescheduled. Officials are working very hard to ensure that we can get the up to 250 events across New Zealand, to promote trades and vocational education, taking place over the next 12 months. The new regional education and employment brokers that are being contracted by the Ministry of Social Development will, of course, be more important than ever as we seek to connect school leavers with the job opportunities that are available to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ec11a45d4f146e99c7f9d703500b8a7\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: How has the Government improved the pipeline into vocational education for school students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b0b5da356145bb9298d826b1573b52\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The recently announced Trades and Apprenticeships Training Package included funding for a thousand additional trades academy places per year from the beginning of 2021. Those additional places build on the 2,000 additional trades academy places a year, and up to 2,000 additional trade gateway places a year that we announced late last year alongside the other initiatives to raise the profile of vocational education and training. These programmes provide an important starting point for school students to start their journey in trades and vocational education and to prepare them to move full time into vocational education and training when they leave school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba29b8d3ca704a83aeb3124fbb1a69dc\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: What resources is the Government making available to provide advice for job hunters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e93577fe7be4fd3b9caf113b036cff6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As has been well canvassed, there are a number of people now in the job market that haven\u2019t been in the job market, and seeking employment, for quite some time. As part of our careers response, the Tertiary Education Commission has developed a job-hunters\u2019 workbook, in collaboration with the Ministry of Social Development, that\u2019s available online and in hard copy, and we\u2019re getting exceptionally positive feedback about it. As well as that, the Tertiary Education Commission are providing training for people to help their clients use the workbook and help broker them into employment, which, combined with a wide range of other options such as videos and webinars and Facebook Live sessions and town hall - style events also taking place around the country, will help people to get back into work as quickly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002217e2b2571ace4d6888eeed4dbce28e9c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00226775c27854d7436f8547353a3e19831f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226775c27854d7436f8547353a3e19831f\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What involvement, if any, does he have in setting the criteria and the assessment of the COVID-19 alert levels, and what information will the Ministry of Health use to make an assessment of whether to amend the levels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8f653f4631645b0a32db26bcf29d302\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8f653f4631645b0a32db26bcf29d302\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Health: I, as a member of Cabinet, am involved in setting the criteria and assessment of the alert levels. Cabinet has agreed eight factors to use in assessing changes between alert levels, including the Director-General of Health\u2019s satisfaction on four health matters, which include transmission of the virus, contact tracing and testing, isolation and border measures, and capacity of the health system. The Director-General of Health makes an assessment against these four criteria for the Minister of Health and Government to consider. This assessment is based on the latest epidemiological evidence in New Zealand and internationally, data on the health service response, and other available sources of information. It is also informed by independent scientific public health experts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bf8d2010feb4d219d46dd525d4c6f51\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: What specific case information would be likely to trigger a finding that household or community transmission could be occurring as per the COVID-19 alert levels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5b0380bc5cd4e9aa8659621135ec4dd\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is a matter that the Director-General of Health would advise the Government upon. If the member cares to put that specific question down in writing, we will be able to get advice from the director-general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0a21a34c1724586a314a4f3691d4765\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that New Zealanders are now worried about a move back up the alert levels due to recent quarantine and managed isolation breaches?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d2b6e4ddc9c4c5f80f32fc834cd5a75\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can accept that New Zealanders remain anxious about the fact that COVID-19 is a global pandemic that is growing. There is no intention from the Government to move back up the alert levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb914eb7604d4ed791fe94563ccb165e\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Has any of the information learnt in recent days about breaches of quarantine protocols changed the assessment of what transmission might now be occurring in terms of our alert level structure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa5dc9fbe7c148d681a84f86b93f1e0e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, and as has been already covered in the House today, the fact that New Zealand does not have community transmission and there is no evidence of community transmission is something that puts us in a very privileged position compared to the rest of the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254ed02e2699d450c87c5d23264eaf764\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister saying that despite repeated cases of quarantine breaches and people going into the community without testing, there has been no assessment done of the impact on that of possible transmission and our alert level?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226952260dc28647949a6f920cb446eef2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No. The member is drawing a long bow from the answers that I\u2019ve given. What I am saying is that we have a very robust system that involves 14 days of quarantine and isolation, which the best health advice tells us is the right thing to do. On this side of the House, we know the importance of border restrictions to New Zealand\u2019s success. The member might want to reflect on the comments of her colleagues, who seem very keen to open the border up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd4c9e28e68a416bb0c8af6d188bcaac\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4c7f6bbe9cf47df8b01a39fbd50f332\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4c7f6bbe9cf47df8b01a39fbd50f332\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Employment: What are the criteria for entry into his six employment programmes, and how is success measured?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00223c25e29bf2d246569a6584f9232d5c20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c25e29bf2d246569a6584f9232d5c20\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Employment: Each individual programme has a different set of criteria that would take far too long to go through\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b3677295a2040a7968a150d883cd8eb\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Free Willy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd5e1ff6b9de478b93dc4862ce5594b9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! It\u2019s a very old joke and it\u2019ll stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5b6049f421648c4af12eaef7289f8b2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Each individual programme has a different set of criteria that would take far too long to go through, but as examples: the employment programme Mana in Mahi is open to all New Zealanders who are either unemployed or at risk of long-term unemployment; He Poutama Rangatahi requires participants to be between the ages of 15 and 24, not engaged in education, employment or training; our skills hubs have no criteria for entry and will work with anyone who needs help connecting to employment across a wide range of industry. In answer to the second part of the question, these programmes are measured by a range of success measures, from the number of people now engaged directly into training or in employment, to the number of people who have been connected through jobs hubs to specific industries. We also measure success in other ways. Take, for example, the young solo mother who started the He Poutama Rangatahi programme with no confidence or family support. Not only is she now working full-time, more importantly, she\u2019s regained her self-confidence and pride and is excited about the future, and that\u2019s the sort of success that we should all be proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f8b98dee8d44de9ba0ce45b0b540b70\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: When he said last week he would look into a Work and Income telephone call telling us that those over 24 definitely cannot enrol in Mana in Mahi, has he looked into it, given a phone call today to exactly the same Work and Income New Zealand number repeated exactly the same information from last week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a61a9acfc994530884260bd5362648a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Minister has indeed looked into it. He has reinforced with all those concerned what the criteria for those programmes are. If that information is still being delivered, it is incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3f888a5337449269d456eb8d9e5b2d0\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: When he said last week that the success of his programmes was aligned with the lowest unemployment rate for M\u0101ori over the last decade, what is the unemployment rate for M\u0101ori over the last decade?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260db89980e20465f975586c6ff2b8c33\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The lowest rate over a decade\u2014we have 7.8 percent in June 2019. The last time the M\u0101ori unemployment rate was lower was in June 2008 when it was 7.2 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a445603890f425eb817784653175ad5\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Why is there no documented success for He Poutama Rangatahi, given that an Official Information Act (OIA) request asking for information pointing to the success of the programme was returned with, \u201CI am refusing your request as the information does not exist.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5ba5efe019f46198c0bcbb679cffaa0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the premise of the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220129f7981e67498fb8df8109e79ae44e\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to table an OIA request with that document I\u2019ve just referenced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c52053c3ad0945e7ac1453ec061ea133\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think it might be an OIA reply; is that right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da16111cf9f547d8939b5a1c311db12d\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: An OIA reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aee8b8ee3a9440a9210679539d43b99\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Leave is sought for the tabling of that document. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224766f07538144bac980c52f0f72d7340\u0022\u003EKiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: What are the criteria for entry into Mana in Mahi and how is success measured?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da992f29829d4b70b1be51c1f00c9dc0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: To be very clear for those who are confused: anyone who is at risk at becoming long-term unemployed and who\u2019ll benefit from Mana in Mahi is potentially eligible for the programme. In fact, 15 percent of participants are over the age of 25, with more than 50 people over the age of 30. In terms of measuring the success of the Mana in Mahi programme, each participant who starts a placement is in full-time employment from day one. The fact that 80 percent of people who started Mana in Mahi, 50 of whom had already spent more than two years on a benefit, have not returned to a benefit highlights the success of the programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecab08d67b224c05a60c22c565ac8619\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a8869ce3fad4f889ad7d7b399c5a8b3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Rt Hon Winston Peters, with a warning\u2014I\u2019ve seen that smile.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e902314bf3274ba4bfad37d6fa5d16b8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Well, for the comfort zone of some in this House, will Mana in Mahi still exist on 20 September this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddc34580bb8e4938b351484be7ed5d0f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: If the parties in this Government are re-elected, absolutely yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d944dbd25b44b18adc0a5e7149687b3\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Is it open for seniors though?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230475e83ba894099a96964134916e204\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member will leave me out of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002207e89b4982b94bdd85a546491691476a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Immigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022922b18df8bfe45ae8040ccdfe9738d33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E12. KIERAN McANULTY (Labour) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022922b18df8bfe45ae8040ccdfe9738d33\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: What initiatives to support refugees and their families were announced in Budget 2020?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022db654c8edaad4cfca41fabf168259317\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db654c8edaad4cfca41fabf168259317\u0022\u003EHon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E It was my privilege to celebrate World Refugee Day with refugee communities from across New Zealand today and to celebrate the work that we have done to support the international refugee resettlement effort. Last year, we agreed to raise the annual refugee quota to 1,500 per year, and in this year\u2019s Budget we agreed to fund greater support for refugee family reunification, to continue the refugee community sponsorship pilot, to continue to upgrade the world-class facilities at M\u0101ngere, and to increase resources for refugee claim processing. I want to make a special mention of the Green Party\u2019s work and advocacy to ensure that we review and adequately fund refugee family resettlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022779551bb04d449e9bcf242a50ebbbc31\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government committed to the refugee programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7bb9afaa4d4416ab6361e884cd2b504\u0022\u003EHon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, two reasons. First, the Government is committed to doing our part as a good international citizen and providing a pathway for those displaced by war and other tragedy to make a new start. Second, refugees are great for New Zealand. Former refugees and their families contribute to our communities culturally, economically, and socially. They bring with them their experiences, cultures, skills, and their strong desire to participate in employment, community activities, volunteering, and education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224371b9e63ea44d8daab45a2a3c874e93\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: What message does the Government have for refugees, former refugees, and their families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022161201c2783e4de0b693aa47ffba33fb\u0022\u003EHon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: We are proud to welcome them and all that they bring to this country: their knowledge, their skills, their talent, and their culture. Their contribution makes us a better society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221996c442171e45bca2a0ad45d0d0c1a0\u0022\u003ERacing Industry Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f0c97f49cde047a4842fb5cc8054cfdf\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00225c32b904b4a048d493f2303ecc30489a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c32b904b4a048d493f2303ecc30489a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister for Racing):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Racing Industry Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ERacing has a long and proud history in New Zealand, and this bill closes the circle started by Sir Thaddeus McCarthy with his royal commission report in December 1970\u2014this is the report here. As an industry, racing is seriously important to our communities and regions, and past studies say it contributes $1.6 billion to the economy each year. There are 14,000 full-time racing industry jobs and nearly 58,000 jobs which participate in the industry in some shape\u2014from bets to equipment suppliers. There are 15,000 owners, 800 trainers, and 200 jockeys. Not only is New Zealand bloodstock world class, it\u2019s a significant export earner. The world-class quality of this industry has no better example recently than the Cambridge Stud horse Hello Youmzain, winning the Diamond Jubilee Stakes at the Royal Ascot this week. That was a genuine world-class result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EYet it\u2019s been well-documented our racing industry has been underperforming over recent years. Addressing and reversing this decline has been my focus as Minister for Racing, given weight with racing policy being part of the coalition agreement. The Government\u2019s first step was to commission the Australian expert John Messara to conduct an industry-wide review. We then formed a ministerial advisory committee, which pulled together our own domestic experts to examine next steps. These measures led to the precursor Racing Reform Bill which passed through this House last year, creating the first meaningful change this industry has seen in a long, long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ESignificantly, the New Zealand Racing Board was replaced with the Racing Industry Transition Agency (RITA) to start a reform programme. Officials also worked on developing further the Messara recommendations. And now we have before us the Racing Industry Bill, the substantive legislative response to the Messara report. This bill revokes the Racing Act of 2003, and it provides a new governance structure for the racing industry. It creates TAB New Zealand as the sole betting provider for racing and sport and empowers the three racing codes to take responsibility for the future growth of their respective industries. The bill also establishes the Racing Integrity Board as an entity independent from the racing codes, which is responsible for all integrity functions for the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWhen introduced, we said we would listen to sound submissions. In order to address historical property issues that have contributed to the industry\u2019s decline, the bill introduces provisions to ensure that surplus racing property is vested back into the industry to enable its future growth, but the provisions related to racetracks have been carefully considered and are well balanced. They ensure there\u2019s good progress and process and protection for community interests. The Transport and Infrastructure Committee received written submissions from 922 submitters. That was supplemented by many oral submissions; the vast majority expressed general support for this bill. The committee has unanimously reported the bill back to the House with proposed amendments, and I thank them. The Government has accepted these amendments. We always believed that if we listened to the submitters we could have an improved legislative product. The interest and productive contribution submitted to the members of the select committee are welcomed, and my parliamentary colleagues should be thanked for their consideration of these matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThis Minister has been vigilant with following the progress of this bill, both listening carefully to industry and also receiving a consistent stream of advice from officials. The Government\u2019s objective has always been to achieve racing legislation responding to the intent of the Messara review and to respond to the feedback of the industry, and this Government has delivered that with a bill which reflects the Government\u2019s sense of direction. The Government believes the racing codes need the tools to better manage their own destiny rather than be bound by legislative impediments. The Government also welcomes the provisions for Racing New Zealand within the bill to be a collaborative entity of the codes. The Government also supports reduced ministerial involvement in the industry, as many in the industry have called for. The overarching intent of the bill is to be able to create the opportunity for the clubs, codes, and TAB to foster their own future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important to advise the House that since the select committee reported back, further amendments have become necessary as a result of COVID-19. The required changes will be addressed by the Government through a Supplementary Order Paper at the committee of the whole House stage. The Supplementary Order Paper will amend the bill as reported back to allow the current RITA board to remain as the inaugural TAB NZ board until such times as new appointments can be made under the new legislation. This recognises the delays to the passing of the bill caused by COVID-19 would have meant that appointing a new board would occur in the pre-election period. I\u2019ll leave the decisions on the substantive appointment to the TAB NZ until after the next election. The Supplementary Order Paper will also temporarily extend the Minister of Racing\u2019s transitional powers currently provided for in the Racing Act to allow the Minister to give direction to TAB NZ for the immediate post-COVID recovery period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EAs you will be aware, the Government has delivered a significant rescue package for racing in the wake of COVID-19. This investment has created a similar period of industry adjustment in which a closer degree of Government involvement is appropriate given the scale of taxpayers\u2019 investment. While the use of these powers may not be required, their retention allows the Minister to assist the TAB NZ board by providing clear directions through what may be a challenging time. This provision is temporary and time-locked to the COVID response. The Supplementary Order Paper also makes minor technical changes to the bill that have come to light since the select committee process. These are all within the intent of the bill and the changes made by the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, let me commend this bill to the House. It amends urgently required reforms, it gives industry the tools it needs to revitalise itself, and it\u2019s a catalyst for a better future for the racing industry. In short, it closes the circle after 50 long years since December 1970. Many of these reforms in the Thaddeus McCarthy report are in the Messara report, and they are in this bill. We cannot afford to waste another 50 years to try and fix this industry up. We need to fix it up right now, this week. To accept the status quo and to do nothing would only lead to a notable decline. This bill will turn the industry around and get racing back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased to note that the industry is already responding and good work is under way to achieve these goals. And by the way, we got a marvellous letter today from all the codes that shows that collaboration and cooperation has broken out across the whole industry, and a letter was written to me today, dated 23 June, 2020, which I\u2019m happy to make available to the media of this country. Accordingly, and early, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1bf19e848de48408d325ac587c863a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1bf19e848de48408d325ac587c863a9\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I agree with the Minister for Racing: we need to fix this right now, this week, and I\u2019m pretty sure we\u2019ll get some way down the path of fixing it right now, this week. But, before we do, I want to go back a little in history\u2014and, unfortunately, I, like the Minister, was around in 1969 and very well remember the report that pretty much resembled the report that was given to the Minister last year. That\u2019s one of the tragedies of the racing industry, and I think we do need to go back a bit in history just to get a view of where we\u2019re at today and where this bill is, hopefully, going to take us to in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EIf you look at the previous Racing Act, it was somewhat restrictive on the Minister\u2019s ability, whoever the Minister was, to do much to assist the racing industry, frankly. It had to be done through other means\u2014via tax or whatever. This bill, in my view, goes a long way to giving the industry back the prerogative to run themselves. I think it\u2019s most important, as we get to that point, that the industry does this in a collegial manner, and I\u2019ll outline a little more about that in due course. But one of the problems the industry\u2019s had throughout its history, in fact, is that the three codes have been fragmented. In fact, the individual codes have been fractured within, and it has caused some problems in the industry. I don\u2019t think you can blame the Parliament entirely for that, but certainly some of the legislation we\u2019ve had in the past backing the industry\u2019s position wasn\u2019t necessarily constructive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to talk for a minute about the select committee process, which I found surprisingly collegial. I\u2019ve never sat on a select committee that remotely resembled that select committee. It was bipartisan. I want to congratulate Darroch Ball on his chairmanship of it. He didn\u2019t interfere much, and he was extremely collegial, as I said a moment ago. I also want to congratulate Jan Logie, who did an awful lot of work in the background and assisted the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, quite significantly, I think, with some views that needed to come to the committee. They came to the committee in the form of submissions, but she also went out of her way to get to understand an industry that\u2019s not that simple, and I think that was pretty significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe select committee listened to and took note of submissions, and then set about implementing many of the changes requested by the submitters. I might add that I think if a few more Ministers and select committees operated in this manner, we\u2019d produce a whole lot better legislation in this House. On many occasions, I think we could do that much better than we have, and I think\u2014as I said a minute ago\u2014this select committee and the process we went through was hugely constructive and has come out with a bill that, in my short travels around the country in recent weeks, I think is appreciated by the industry. Hopefully, they\u2019ll get on with the job of getting over their differences, basically, and making this thing work. I\u2019ll just touch on that a little bit further on too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI also want to compliment the officials, because, as anyone who sits on select committees\u2014and I don\u2019t want to be critical of officials for a minute\u2014often finds, officials have a view on how things should work and they like to get their own way, to some extent. But I thought, in the process of this bill, they went out of their way to assist the committee to get to the point we wanted to get to, and that particularly applies with respect to clauses 19 to 26, which relate to the property issues, which were very challenging for, particularly, some of our smaller communities but also for our other communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI hope the passing of this bill will put the once great racing industry back on its feet and allow us to give the horse breeders of New Zealand an opportunity to invest with confidence and show just how good they are. They are some of the best in the world. We have some of the best conditions for breeding horses in the world, and it\u2019s an opportunity for us to make the best of that, and I think it\u2019s important. It\u2019s one of those industries, of a few that stick out in New Zealand, where we\u2019re clearly as good as anyone in the world and we can excel wherever we go in the world with those horses. And the Minister referred to one of those a minute ago. I think it\u2019s very exciting opportunity for the industry, and I just hope that they\u2019ve got enough, I guess, strength and horsepower left to make that work for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe industry came to the submission process with a large number of concerns about the way the bill was initially written. They were keen for it to follow the Messara report in a much closer manner than perhaps, when it was first presented to the Parliament, it did. I don\u2019t want to be critical of the Minister at all, but they were quite keen to remove the Minister from some of the influence the Minister could have in the course of the legislation being implemented, and, actually, you can see why, because, as with anything, you can get Ministers appointed to these things that understand them and you can get Ministers appointed to these things that don\u2019t understand them and that don\u2019t want to. So I think the more an industry can remove itself from the processes of Parliament, the better off they are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe first place that we had quite a discussion on was around the appointment of the TAB board and how that was to be processed going forward. I think it\u2019s most important that the industry\u2014all sectors of it, including the sporting sector\u2014have a collective view of what they see the TAB board\u2019s future being. If they do that, they will have the ability to nominate people, who the Minister will then appoint with confidence. If they don\u2019t get their decision-making collective on this, they\u2019re not going to give any Minister the confidence to go with the appointment processes as is intended by the bill. So it\u2019s intended by the bill that, effectively, that appointment process will enable the collective bodies to get their heads together and appoint and nominate people who are appropriate to take the industry forward. If they don\u2019t do that, then that\u2019s going to be challenging for any Minister. That was the first issue we dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe second issue was one of intellectual property. The original bill, effectively, gave the intellectual property of the industry to the TAB. Now, the intellectual property of the industry is not necessarily owned by the codes or anyone else. The intellectual property of the industry is, effectively, owned by every sector of the industry, because the breeders have a portion of the intellectual property, the racing clubs have a portion of it, as do many other people\u2014from the trainers to the jockeys to whatever. They all \u201Cown\u201D the sector of that intellectual property. The challenging thing for the industry was, it was, effectively, under the bill, granted to the TAB. Now, if you looked at the larger racing clubs in New Zealand, for example, it could be that they may have wanted\u2014if the TAB doesn\u2019t survive\u2014to contract themselves out individually. If they didn\u2019t own their own intellectual property, they wouldn\u2019t be able to do that. So that was resolved, and, actually, was resolved thanks, to a large extent, to the tenacity of my colleague Andrew Bayly, who understands intellectual property better than I certainly do and better than most people do. He had some very strong views on that. So I think that that was a good outcome, and I think it\u2019s an outcome that the TAB now accepts and fully understands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll talk very briefly about Racing New Zealand. When the bill came to the Parliament, there was the ability for Racing New Zealand to form itself, effectively. Now, Racing New Zealand is a combination of the three codes. They had the ability to form themselves, but there was no direction under the bill for them to be formed. One of the concerns, I think, that certainly I had\u2014and I\u2019m sure that other members of the select committee had as well\u2014was that the three codes have never been able to collectively form themselves into anything, historically. Interestingly, they came and submitted on a united front to the select committee, which I thought was unusual. In fact, it was certainly unusual by industry standards. They came and submitted collectively, and that gave us a false sense of security, because, knowing the history of them, I felt, and I think the select committee certainly felt, it was necessary to form Racing New Zealand in legislation, which, effectively, gave them the opportunity to put their body together. They then, collectively, will represent the codes, hopefully\u2014that\u2019s the idea of it: collectively represent the codes\u2014in their negotiations with the TAB and with everyone else they deal with, including the Minister. I think that will work too. So that was another provision that we inserted into the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to talk briefly about\u2014because I\u2019m running out of time\u2014the sale of surplus racetracks. This was by far the most contentious issue that the committee had to deal with. It was the subject of probably 90 percent of all of the submissions, and particularly from those racing clubs that felt they were the subject of the bill\u2019s design. We had a lot of discussion about this, and I think our aim was to give those communities the ability to protect their property\u2014and I say their property, and I mean that\u2014in one form or another. Small communities build up assets of all sorts to make their community work, and, in this case, it\u2019s a racecourse that we\u2019re talking about. It was necessary to ensure that those communities were protected going forward and that that asset was protected, either for that community or for the industry, whichever the clubs felt was the right way to do it. I\u2019m sure this will be documented as we go further down the track, in a much better manner than I have. But it is a very important part of the bill. It\u2019s a piece of the bill that we feel we\u2019ve got right, and we think it will give a balance to all those racing clubs going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m clearly going to run of time, but I just think it\u2019s a very good piece of legislation, and I think it will set the industry up for the future. I\u2019m confident that it will, obviously, pass here. We certainly support it. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0dc7944b06047efbe4a60a30cfa3371\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0dc7944b06047efbe4a60a30cfa3371\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of the Racing Industry Bill, but I do have a few things to say about the process by which we got here. In particular, I speak on it because it concerns an asset in my community\u2014Avondale racing club\u2014deeply; it concerns it deeply. You see, in the Messara report, the Avondale Racecourse was identified as one of those possibly surplus venues. It might be surplus to racing, but it is not surplus to the Avondale markets. It\u2019s not surplus to the school sports teams that play there on a Saturday morning. When I was down there at the racecourse yesterday morning, talking about it with someone, there\u2019s about 12 or 14 sport pitches there which are used in my community. It\u2019s not surplus in terms of being a large green space in the midst of an urban area, which is used by all sorts of people for exercise, for fresh air, and just for being in the green. That racecourse matters deeply to my community, and as the bill was introduced, it was, to be honest, under threat. It was one that was clearly going to be designated as surplus and sold off\u2014to no benefit to my community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut the select committee process worked. The select committee process worked to ensure that this extensive community asset built on land that was gifted not to a racing code but gifted to the Avondale Jockey Club cannot just be disposed of just like that. Instead, in terms of the select committee process, the bill now has within it what I think is a really good basis for the racing industry, the racing codes, the racing clubs, and the communities that surround them to move forward. The bill introduces a process of review in which a racing code and a racing club must try to negotiate. If that fails, a reviewer is appointed who is acceptable to both the racing code and the racing club, and that reviewer must undertake a process looking at what is intended to happen with the surplus venue, to what other purpose it could be used, to what extent there are other not-for-profit purposes tied up with the racing venue, the legal or beneficial interests of iwi, whether it\u2019s used as a trading venue, what the value of the land and buildings is, and whether it\u2019s used by clubs that don\u2019t actually have an ownership interest in the venue. The proposal is put forward by the wider community as to what use there should be for that venue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIf I was to characterise this\u2014taking it away from specific provisions\u2014what this is, in this revised bill, is a very, very clear directive to the racing codes and the racing clubs and the communities which surround them, to get together, to talk, to negotiate, to really understand each other\u2019s positions, and to make sure that the outcome of any process is a fair one that respects all the interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s what I say to my community, to the members of the Avondale Jockey Club, and to the racing codes. Let\u2019s talk\u2014let\u2019s talk; that\u2019s what this bill tells us to do\u2014and reach an outcome that works for everyone, including the racing industry, which really does need to be set on a more secure basis as we go forward. Because there is this strong process of negotiation and talking introduced by the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, and one which, I know, the sponsors of this bill are happy to work forward with, I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002201b85d8dbf034bb6aef3cdbd582c623f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201b85d8dbf034bb6aef3cdbd582c623f\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be talking on the Racing Industry Bill. I think, as we all know, the bill was originally introduced by the Minister for Racing back in December 2019, and followed a very well-considered report prepared by John Messara, who has played an instrumental role in reforming the Australian racing industry. He came to New Zealand and spent some time looking at the New Zealand industry, which, unfortunately, over time has been going backwards. His wide-ranging report focused on a whole range of issues, from governance issues right through to the ownership of tracks; also just how things are done here in New Zealand, particularly the betting arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s clear that the industry needs to be able to reorganise, regroup, to be able to move forward. And of course, as most of the former speakers have mentioned, the New Zealand racing industry is a wonderful industry and employs a lot of people, 50,000 people. It\u2019s a big money earner, from exports, and it brings a lot of profile to New Zealand and also, as I said, export dollars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut the reality is that simply for people who want to own and race a horse in New Zealand, it is almost at a point where you\u2014in virtually most cases\u2014you lose money on that venture, unless you are lucky enough to perhaps win a group 1 race, and that will recover your cost. But very few horses are in that situation. So we have an industry that\u2019s in trouble. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo it was interesting, after the bill had been introduced in December, walking around Karaka saleyards in February. I could not believe the reaction that I received from many owners and many breeders who were attending those sales, because what the industry was saying to me, and to many others, was quite simply: if you read the Messara report and then you looked at the bill that had been introduced late last year, it was diametrically different\u2014it was almost as if the people who had prepared the bill had not read the original Messara report\u2014and there was a plea for help. So out of that process, the select committee has gone to work to make substantial changes to this bill, and most of it\u2019s been canvassed before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge some members of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, not only my colleague Ian McKelvie, particularly, and Tim van de Molen, but also the members from the Government. We worked proactively and consistently\u2014basically over the last six, seven months\u2014to get the bill into a shape which really reflects the Messara recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe key parts, I think, can sort of be distilled down. We have three elements in the racing industry: we have the TAB at one end of it, which is around betting; at the other end we have the three codes\u2014thoroughbred racing, trotting, and greyhounds\u2014and in between there is sort of a loose grouping that was provided for in the original bill, but not specifically catered for. And so the efforts of the committee are really focused on all of those three areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe first one was around the TAB, which is about undertaking betting, and the first change that was made was this question of the intellectual property that my colleague Ian McKelvie spoke of. This is the IP, the intellectual property owned by all of the industry, and for some reason that had been put into the control of an operating entity called TAB. In the event that the TAB went bust, or ceased to operate, or whatever, that IP would be permanently locked in that vehicle and whoever actually picked up that vehicle, should it go into receivership. It\u2019s 101 in any business structure never to put IP into an operating entity. So that was the first change that was made and it also reflects that the IP is owned by \u201Cthe\u201D industry and I say in all its component parts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second thing was around the governance of the TAB and this is a crucial bit. This is the bit that drives the money into the racing industry. It drives what the racing stakes are and therefore drives the profitability of actually owning a horse and actually underpins the breeding of horses in New Zealand, which is a fantastic industry here. The key thing\u2014and there\u2019s been a lot of concerns about the governance of the TAB, and so what we brought into play with the TAB are two things. One is how the board is constructed to operate that TAB going forward. And basically, what the rules are now are there: one, a representative from the three codes\u2014racing, trotting, and greyhound\u2014and they have an absolute right to have an appointee on the TAB, although the people that they nominate must have adequate and sufficient skills to be able to be on that board. And then there are four other appointments, possibly, quite likely, one from sporting organisations and then some independent board members. So basically, it is to make a board that has the necessary skills but also reflects the interests of all the underlying ownership of the TAB, which is really the three codes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other thing we\u2019ve put in place was an accountability from the TAB back to the codes and I\u2019ll talk more about that in a second. But that was a crucial bit because what we didn\u2019t want to set up was a commercial organisation with a commercial board without adequate framework in place to make sure that they really were driving and looking after the industry that, essentially, owns them from behind. So what we then did is that in the middle\u2014the original bill had provided for a possibility of an independent organisation being set up to represent the three codes. In John Messara\u2019s report it actually specified that this should be set up so there was a collegial approach and professional approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo we changed the bill from it being one that could be catered for in the future to specifically set up that body called Racing New Zealand and gave it a specific purpose, which includes not only setting race meetings and the rules around that, also around judiciary roles in terms of racing\u2014a whole raft of sort of different roles. But one of the most crucial roles was for Racing New Zealand to make sure it held TAB accountable. So there was a process around agreeing a statement of corporate intent or the objectives of the TAB and also a business plan. So we\u2019ve got interlocking accountabilities between the TAB and this Racing New Zealand representing the three codes. And that\u2019s a crucial part to making sure you\u2019ve got adequate tension between shareholders and operators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe last thing was around the codes themselves and they are now enshrined and have their own operation, but also have the right to have appointees on Racing New Zealand. And I think that will provide a sort of a good framework\u2014a corporate, commercial intention\u2014to make sure that the TAB operates in the best interests of the racing industry, but at the same time allowing it to get on with its own operations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe last thing is around the sale of racing tracks. I think the big strategic issue for the committee was there are some tracks that should be sold in New Zealand and there are some tracks that shouldn\u2019t be sold in New Zealand. And somehow we had to devise a process to reflect that. And so of the most paramount importance for, particularly, smaller provincial clubs was to see the loss of those clubs and the loss of those racing facilities. And one of the crucial things is once you lose racing clubs or racecourses where training takes place, as soon as that training disappears, the industry folds and disappears around it. So we were very mindful of making sure that the small commercial clubs in provincial areas could continue to operate and would continue to operate even if they were downgraded from a full racing club down into a training facility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut we also wanted to make sure that we protected those with very strong community interests. There are many, many good examples. Marlborough is one of the most interesting ones where A\u0026amp;P shows are held regularly at the racecourse. There\u2019s joint ownership or overlapping ownership. There are lots of courses where there\u2019s such a strong community interest that to see those courses sold off would be the wrong thing to do and therefore we have a process that\u2019s lined up and caters for that. But there\u2019s also a process where courses may want to be sold. And I think we\u2019ve struck the right balance, and I certainly commend the bill and look forward to the committee of the whole House process when we can discuss it in more detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223e81c25b9ffa45e5973fdf47b75c4825\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e81c25b9ffa45e5973fdf47b75c4825\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E I remember taking my grandmother back to Charleston many years ago, and she pointed out where the racecourse had been there. There\u2019s no evidence left of it, but she talked about what an important part of the Charleston community it was at the time, and I\u2019m reminded of that now, as now that Charleston problem has become a problem for many other communities in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ve heard today, many of those racecourses physically dominate not only the town, and are an intricate part of the town, but also the race meetings themselves. This bill isn\u2019t just about saving the racing industry. It\u2019s about making sure it can thrive again and be the part of communities that it was in the past, producing the winners we\u2019ve seen and the international reputation we\u2019ve seen, and, importantly, making sure that it remains a part of New Zealand culture. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002242835f00482a4a45913e7e68bdfba7d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242835f00482a4a45913e7e68bdfba7d6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s with great pleasure that I speak in support of the Racing Industry Bill in the second reading. As a former racing Minister, I only had a few months in that role, and there wasn\u2019t really time to enable us to make the changes that were needed within the industry. I was just going to congratulate the New Zealand First Minister at this time, Winston Peters, who has done a fantastic job over many years of being an advocate for the racing industry and has made this bill go through Parliament. So I just want to thank him for actually doing this, because on behalf of the industry, it has been something that\u2019s been looked forward to for a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to give him a little bit of a brickbat, though, at the same time, because it has been the end of a parliamentary term before we actually get to the stage of passing this. On the desk, when he took over the ministerial position, he had the ideas that were needed to actually go ahead. So it has taken a long time. It\u2019s taken a long time, but we have got there in the end, and that\u2019s good. [Interruption] It\u2019s good to see there\u2019s that vocal support amongst the Parliament, because racing has felt for a long time that it hasn\u2019t had the recognition in the parliamentary process that it felt it deserved, and to see that we\u2019ve got active members of this House engaging in this debate today shows that it is now something that people are very much encouraged to take an active interest in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI just want to thank all members of the House that have been on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, that have done a fantastic job in getting it to the stage, and especially to the National members, especially Ian McKelvie and Andrew Bayly and Tim van de Molen, that have been so active in making the changes to this bill to make sure it is practical and achieves the goals that the bill was actually intended to do. Although I wasn\u2019t on that committee, I understood that it was a bill that needed a lot of work to be done on it, and it was Andrew Bayly and Ian McKelvie and Tim van de Molen that did that hard lifting to change it, to make sure it is practical and successful. So thank you to our members of the committee that were on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWhen we look at racing, and when we look at what\u2019s happening here at the moment\u2014you know, I think Andrew\u2019s speech was very good where he went through the TAB and the intellectual property part of it and how important that is to distinguish so that there is that ability to maintain that intellectual property should anything happen to the TAB. That\u2019s a fundamental part of the change that you\u2019re seeing coming through in the bill now, and that\u2019s something that I know Andrew spent a lot of time in really pushing from his commercial background. The governance arrangements of the TAB and also Racing New Zealand are to reflect the major players of the industry, being the three codes, but also to reflect that the TAB actually has a big role in sports betting, and also the independent role of others on that board as well\u2014it is important to give it the strength that it needs to carry on. The arrangements between those two boards around the accountability between them to give more support to decision making, and also to give the codes a feeling that they are being listened to and they have a TAB that works with them and for them, I think is something that they have been looking forward to especially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThen we look at the individual codes and their role of appointing to Racing New Zealand, and that\u2019s another part of the changes that we\u2019ve seen throughout the process that\u2019s a core of the bill. Then we get to the sale of surplus tracks, which had been a major issue and still is a major issue, especially when tracks feel that they haven\u2019t received the ability, or the licence, you could say, to operate, not having race dates. That puts them in a very difficult predicament in managing their operations and, effectively, challenges them about the ability of their racetrack to continue. That is a difficult process, and there\u2019s still a lot to be done in that area. I know that the committee has spent a lot of time in a very detailed process of looking at a number of tests to determine whether there should be the transfer by Order in Council of surplus venues or to allow parties to renegotiate their position. There is trying to be, in those tests, a degree of comfort to those clubs, that if they don\u2019t have the race dates that they require, there is a process there so that they can have some negotiation and look at their individual circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo this bill is long overdue. It is something which the racing industry has been looking forward to for a long, long time. Every time we delay this bill, the racing industry loses money. As Andrew Bayly said, it\u2019s an industry that has a proud history, and as the Minister said, it actually has very proud achievements in just the last day or so. You know, it\u2019s an industry that has a bright future ahead of it if we\u2019re looking at a productive, primary-based New Zealand economy that\u2019s going to take on the world and succeed. We are good at breeding horses, we\u2019re good at training horses, we\u2019re good at racing horses, and we\u2019ve got the best people that can manage horses, buy horses, and look after horses in this country. The success and passion of those people deserve a Parliament that passes legislation that\u2019s in their best interests, and that\u2019s the really important bit that I think\u2014they will be looking at this Parliament and saying, \u201CFinally, we\u2019re being acknowledged and something is being done to try and stem the flow of losses and the difficulties the industry was facing so that we can actually celebrate the successes and rebuild an industry that is world class and has a tremendous future ahead of it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo this is a good day for racing in New Zealand, to see Parliament coming together and supporting this bill. I know that the sector will be very pleased to see members of Parliament coming in with that support, not only through this legislation but in their support of the hard work that those people do every day because they are passionate about their horses and they\u2019re passionate about the industry they\u2019re part of. They\u2019re good, keen New Zealanders that really do work hard and try and do the very best for\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022964f56b34aa04a0c95a1e0749c970d6c\u0022\u003EBarbara Kuriger\u003C/span\u003E: Employ a lot of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fe5bdd1e56441849cfd91603210e9df\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, there is a lot of employment, but there are a lot of employees there that work really hard, and to see Parliament supporting them, I think that will be something that they\u2019re very pleased to see. We recommend this bill to the House and thank everyone involved for getting it to the stage that we can get support from all the parties, effectively, that are the main players and get this bill through. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb1e546d562845da8588a25a0e29a8a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb1e546d562845da8588a25a0e29a8a6\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E E Te M\u0101ngai o Te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe, thank you. Can I congratulate the Transport and Infrastructure Committee for the huge amount of work that they have done on this bill. I wasn\u2019t a member of that select committee, but my colleague Jan Logie was. About a quarter of the submitters had quite significant concerns about Subpart 2, I think, of the bill, which is the part concerned with where clubs may be dealing with surplus venues that the code wants and the provisions around how, particularly, those smaller racing clubs, the smaller racetracks\u2014Mr Greg O\u2019Connor mentioned the Charleston racecourse, no longer in existence\u2014how that whole transfer process works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI notice in the bill that the select committee has completely rewritten clause 26 and some of the subsequent clauses to recognise the concerns of, particularly, smaller communities where their racetrack is used for a number of other events. In Kaik\u014Dura, for example, Seafest takes place there. In K\u016Bmara, the Coast to Coast race uses the K\u016Bmara racecourse. So the committee has done a very good job, I think, in responding to submitters\u2019 concerns and putting in place a number of criteria that the Minister has to consider before making a recommendation for an Order in Council which would transfer \u201Csurplus\u201D assets like a racecourse from the club to the code.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Messara report recognised that there needs to be some rationalisation in the industry, but there has been concern that these significant hearts of the community in some areas could be, in the interest of efficiency, in the interest of rationalisation, transferred to the code to the detriment of the community. So that is a very comprehensive list now of criteria, and also just the way the select committee has changed the process. The Minister for Racing must appoint a reviewer before recommending an Order in Council\u2014a person with appropriate experience. And the cost of this whole exercise of considering whether a venue should be transferred to the code must be met by the code rather than the club concerned. And yes, it is noted that some clubs don\u2019t have their own racecourses\u2014they still organise meetings at other racecourses, but the work that the select committee has done on reshaping this bill, the comprehensive recommendations in the report back, and the many changes are really an example of select committees working really well to take on board the concerns of submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is, reluctantly, supporting this stage of the bill\u2014cautiously, I think, is a better word\u2014because of these changes that have been made, and also because of the dialogue we had with the Minister for Racing in the early stages about strengthening the harm minimisation provisions in the bill. One of the TAB New Zealand\u2019s functions is to look at the whole development of products or when they\u2019re developing new products to look at how gambling harm is going to be minimised and what measures are going to be put in place to do that. So the requirement too to have on the TAB board people who\u2019ve got an understanding of problem gambling and how you minimise harm is quite critical, and the fact that we have regulations which go through some specific processes to minimise gambling harm. So that\u2019s been a significant improvement in the bill from the start, but really do commend the work of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee and Jan Logie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Green Party\u2019s support for this bill will not stop us continuing to campaign to have a ban on greyhound racing\u2014that was outside the scope of this bill, but as we\u2019ve seen with recent media coverage nearly 300 greyhounds were put down in 2019 because they couldn\u2019t be rehomed. The greyhound racing code is one of the codes covered by the bill, but the fact that Aotearoa New Zealand is one of only eight countries in the world which still allows greyhound racing speaks to an inadequate attention to this fundamental animal welfare issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe other key issue is that with this tension in the racing industry between the bigger venues with more sophisticated facilities and better tracks, those tracks will often be harder. That puts more risk to the horses going on those because of the harder surfaces. So we really want to encourage the industry to continue to look at how it can improve animal welfare, particularly for the horses, and the Green Party support for this bill is because it does not prevent us continuing to campaign for an end to greyhound racing in New Zealand. So we are supporting it cautiously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2ec9439f3284885b883431401c2503a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2ec9439f3284885b883431401c2503a\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I stand today too to support the Racing Industry Bill and, as my colleague David Bennett said in his contribution just recently, a lot of the work and credit that has gone into this bill is due to the efforts of Ian McKelvie, Andrew Bayly, and Tim van de Molen. In fact, I did not sit on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, but I understand from my colleagues and from the updates that I\u2019ve sat in on over the course of the select committee process that this bill is almost unrecognisable now from what it was when it was first introduced. As Ian McKelvie referenced in his speech, whoever drafted the bill had clearly not even read the Messara report, it was so far removed from the advice that was given and paid for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThere are, as we\u2019ve heard, some significant recommendations that are being enacted in this bill. One of those is the establishment of Racing New Zealand, and that was a strong recommendation from the Messara report. In that, we have the three codes\u2014Thoroughbred Racing, Harness Racing New Zealand, and the New Zealand Greyhound Racing Association\u2014now working with a common interest to work with those codes on some common ground. Originally, that was going to be enacted via regulation, but the National Party members decided and recommended in the select committee that this needed to be enshrined in the legislation, and that gives it some enduring life ahead of it. It is not subject to any sort of political manipulation along the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMost of the speakers have referenced the issues that came up out of this bill which relate to the assets of the various clubs, and for myself, on the West Coast we have five tracks. We have one up in Westport; there is one in Reefton, which is a dual-code track; the Greymouth track; Hokitika; and the one closest to my heart and that I\u2019ve had quite a lot to do with over the years is the K\u016Bmara track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ENow, we know that these are far more than just racetracks, and, as the Green Party has acknowledged, these are very valued community assets. I know that the ones that are on the West Coast are used for a range of things, from weddings\u2014the New Zealand Motor Caravan Association uses them to park up on. We have Scouts and Guides that use those facilities for their camps. The Coast to Coast, of course, is a very famous one that uses the K\u016Bmara track every year as its camping space and briefing area but also local schools use their local tracks for cross-country, and what we need to remember is that all of these tracks across New Zealand are looked after and cared for and have been bought and paid for and developed over many years\u2014over a hundred years, in some cases\u2014by volunteers, and I think it\u2019s very appropriate that Volunteering New Zealand is acknowledging our volunteers this week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESo I pay tribute to those people who have given selflessly for many, many years. I\u2019ve got a very dear relative who is in his 90s now, who has recently retired from the K\u016Bmara Racing Club. So a bit shout-out to Pat Fitzgerald, who has been doing that work as a volunteer, he reckons, for about 75 or 80 years. That is the kind of commitment that local people have to these facilities, and they didn\u2019t want them to be confiscated, as was enabled in the original piece of legislation. So a huge amount of credit to my colleagues for enabling the disposal of these assets now in a very considered way that actually brings in the contribution of those community organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI can recall about 13 or 14 years ago, in a former role, meeting with New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing to talk about the future of racetracks and the clubs. At that time, we could see that the bar was slowly lifting, making it more and more difficult for these local clubs and volunteers, who have limited income, to achieve the higher standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EA lot of that was triggered from the health and safety regulation, so it was improving things like the running rail and track surfaces, and then it moved into things like the internal assets\u2014so the shower blocks and toilets that the jockeys would use. They were all very understanding that we would want to lift that bar, but it made it more and more difficult for these clubs to remain viable, so we ended up in the situation of having quite a lot of tension within the clubs and pressure on them to continue to hold their race meetings. So we now have a very well-considered methodology for disposal of those assets, and, as I said, it does include a huge consultation with the club. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut I do have to confess that when I saw the first tranche of this piece of legislation, I was alarmed at the ability for the assets to be confiscated. I did go and talk to one of my local clubs who held a very large piece of freehold land, and I helped them broker a deal where those assets were sold to avoid the confiscation. So they\u2019re now held for the community and for the long term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EWe see in this bill that the motivation is around attempting to get the racing codes to be more profitable and to encourage more participation. I know, from sitting in on an Estimates hearing in a select committee last week that had the Minister there, of the Minister\u2019s passion for ensuring that the industry does thrive, and I think we all do that, because we are all cognisant of the fact that there is a huge amount of employment that revolves around the racing codes here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut we\u2019ve also got a great track record for our stock that we breed here in this country and for the commercial return that that does bring to the country. So we do start with the breeders, and we have some of the best in the world in New Zealand. Then, we have the owners, and I\u2019m not sure if any of my colleagues have ever been an owner or a part-owner of a racehorse, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022243fdda09d9149afa580c1a82777fa2b\u0022\u003EIan McKelvie\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why we\u2019re so poor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257531ee1bac54b34bf4ba712c12725d6\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly, Mr McKelvie, that\u2019s why you\u2019re so poor. It\u2019s because they are not what most people would invest in to make a great return, but they are something that people invest in because they do enjoy this sport. They enjoy the thrill of taking a horse to the track, and, as a former clerk of scales, which is a job that I did on our local track for about 10 years, I can attest to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe passion that the people in the industry have for the codes is extremely high, and that\u2019s what keeps them coming. But the owners do require some return on their investment, and the stakes in this country are relatively low now and have been falling over time. So we do need to improve the return to the owners. But, of course, then we have the punters. Those people that go along to the tracks and those people that bet on the TAB, they\u2019re all part of the mix of the racing industry here in New Zealand, but, of course, there are the trainers too, who dedicate massive amounts of hours, and the jockeys and all the drivers\u2014whichever code we are referring to\u2014they also get a huge amount of employment out of that. That\u2019s not forgetting the stable hands, who take care of the animals and look after them, and even down to the transport operators that move the horses around to the various tracks and race meetings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESo there is a huge incentive for us to ensure that we look after the codes, that we make it more profitable, and that there is an improvement in the stakes so that the industry can continue to thrive. As a result of the changes that my colleagues have brought to the select committee, I believe that we have a bill now in front of us that will protect the industry and will give it some confidence, going forward. I have pleasure in commending it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00228a0c2bcfb9044b7f9b4132dbdb02f335\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a0c2bcfb9044b7f9b4132dbdb02f335\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Willow-Jean Prime\u2014five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002216213b9096e34b6998bdb59c54d6fc7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216213b9096e34b6998bdb59c54d6fc7f\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I first just want to acknowledge the passion of the current Minister for Racing. It was very clear in the Estimates hearings last week, his passion. I also have sat through the debate and I have heard a lot of reference to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee and how everybody worked collaboratively to produce the best piece of law. I also heard that it\u2019s long overdue, and I don\u2019t want to prolong it any further. So I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00223ffabdb9c1194cbda86b344c74610aa2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ffabdb9c1194cbda86b344c74610aa2\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, it is a great pleasure to speak on this bill. I, too, would like to recognise the contribution of Parliament\u2019s own horse whisperer in Ian McKelvie. Ian has involvement in horses of all sorts from gallopers, harness racing, and some polo ponies. So he\u2019s knows his horses inside out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219e1c5810c454723ac348144d7cdfb65\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Is he any good with tips?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8d25cfb055c4e6aa15759633be6cb85\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he doesn\u2019t share them with me. But should he, you\u2019ll be first on the list. Well, look, this is a great bill now and it was a lot of work that went in. I think Ian\u2019s in-depth knowledge of the horse industry, as well as Andrew Bayly\u2019s commercial acumen as well as his involvement with horses, has knocked this bill into shape; not diminishing other people\u2019s contributions, but I know they were the major contributors to the shape that the bill is in today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been a lot of talk about the details in the bill. I want to focus on the local impact in my area, which is in Marlborough, starting there. There\u2019s been 150 years of racing in Marlborough, but the Waterlea course, where racing is currently held today\u2014just recently celebrated 100 years of racing, when the first thoroughbred racing event was held in March of 1920, so it\u2019s got a long history. It\u2019s one of the courses that could have been badly impacted by the shape that the bill was in as it went to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. The course is now struggling to get licences to race or dates to race, and now, in that situation, they could have had their assets taken and redistributed into the code. Fortunately, they have quite an active racing community. There are a number of horses trained there. The bill now quite clearly sets out that if it\u2019s utilised for training, that would be a major advantage. It\u2019s also its location. Geographically, virtually at the end of the Cook Strait means that a lot of horses overnight there in their transport, either north or south from island to island, and it\u2019s utilised very frequently for that purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EWaterlea Racecourse is kind of unique almost in that it has an all-weather harness track and a grass thoroughbred track and it\u2019s utilised by both codes, which jointly own the track. It\u2019s also utilised significantly by community events. There\u2019s a massive classic car event there, which fills up all of the car-park area, and hundreds of people, if not thousands, turn out to that. They also have motor homes that stay on that property and lots of other events in the racecourse. So it is a community hub and it\u2019s proudly owned by the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EA little further south, if we go two hours further south to Kaik\u014Dura, there is the racetrack there where the Kaik\u014Dura Cup is held every Marlborough Anniversary Day. And it\u2019s the last hit out before the New Zealand Trotting Cup. So it\u2019s a big event in the racing calendar, where those horses that will go on to shine at the trotting cup have that last outing competitively before then, and it quite often shows that the horse that wins will win the Kaik\u014Dura Cup. That event is well attended from people all over the country, actually, that turn out to watch that. They spend a great day right by the sea. Sometimes there\u2019s the odd southerly that comes through, but generally it\u2019s a beautiful day there. Again, this is a community track. It has the A\u0026amp;P show held in that event. The show jumping\u2019s in the centre of the track and the sideshows and so on around the rest of it. It is often used for horse events throughout the year. So it\u2019s a valuable community asset. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EHad this bill not been knocked into the shape it was, it could have been taken and those seats vested in the codes. That would have been outrageous from a community perspective. Fortunately, National put that into shape and those two members that I particularly mentioned before were largely responsible for that; I really thank them for that. And with that, I commend the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u00228898b9f4d4e748e7bd51853fd5080f79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228898b9f4d4e748e7bd51853fd5080f79\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media):\u003C/span\u003E There\u2019s been a certain amount of historiography going on today, where the Opposition claims credit for the good work of the Rt Hon Winston Peters, the Minister for Racing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWhat this sector has been wanting for a long time is certainty, and David Bennett, a former Minister for Racing, said that the racing sector had felt like they hadn\u2019t had a voice in this place. And that\u2019s right, because for the nine years that that party was in Government, they didn\u2019t have a voice, and I would like to pay respect to the Rt Hon Winston Peters for getting a bill into the House and getting it passed within one term because that party over there had nine years to do it and never did it at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s just have a clear picture of what is happening here. This piece of legislation has been brought here, it has been passed, and the sector will now have certainty. And that is what the history books will read about this piece of legislation. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2ea4f8716454efc8f052e32dd155f78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2ea4f8716454efc8f052e32dd155f78\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my pleasure to take a call on this second reading, and, as you know, this side of the House is supporting this bill. The reform of the racing industry has been a long time coming, but I would say that unless the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, despite what the previous member, Kris Faafoi, has just said, hadn\u2019t done its work, this side of the House wouldn\u2019t be supporting this bill, because there were massive errors in it as it was first reported back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important that I, sort of, put a bit of context on my own perception of this bill, because I have been an avid supporter of the racecourse in Hastings and what was called the Hawke\u2019s Bay Jockey Club and subsequently has changed to Hawkes Bay Racing. I have attended many of their events and I have supported them and had many meetings, including in my previous role, and I have watched over years as they have struggled. They have sold land off. They have had difficult years. They now have a grandstand, and many of you who have been there will know it\u2019s older\u2014probably has earthquake-strengthening issues that will have to be addressed. Their fundamental modus operandi into the future is going to be very difficult. Despite that, the Spring Carnival, as it\u2019s known in Hawke\u2019s Bay, is one of the events on the racing calendar of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re supported by two smaller clubs still in Hawke\u2019s Bay. One is in Mr McAnulty\u2019s sort of area that he looks after as a list MP in Central Hawke\u2019s Bay: that\u2019s a small racetrack there. Another one is the Napier electorate, looked after by the Hon Stuart Nash, in Wairoa. Both of those clubs are unlikely to survive in the current arrangement, or even to the future, because, simply put, there are not enough people supporting the industry, there\u2019s not enough money in it, and things need to change. I\u2019ve had conversations with the presidents of those various clubs about that, some of those have been quite unpalatable\u2014but they are the reality. I acknowledge, in the Hawke\u2019s Bay case, president Eliot Cooper for the work that he\u2019s done in guiding us through the changes that are needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EIn Hawke\u2019s Bay and the Hastings racing centre, I look at a beautiful piece of land in the middle of town, all zoned residential, with an older set of grandstands on it, but for the Spring Carnival it becomes a hub of activity where people love to go. But it cannot support itself under the current arrangement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EI also say that this is a big industry. We\u2019re not just talking about the tracks and the odd race but the owners, the breeders, the trainers, and the jockeys. Simply put: if we don\u2019t make these reforms, it\u2019s my view that there will not be an industry in New Zealand in 10 years\u2019 time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EI disagree with the previous speaker, Kris Faafoi, who said that previous Governments haven\u2019t looked at this or done things about it. The Hon David Bennett got very close to bringing legislation before this House, but the election came along and he didn\u2019t get it through. So now we are getting to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EI have talked to and met\u2014some quite bruising encounters with members of the industry about what needs to happen. But, fundamentally, if we don\u2019t do this, this whole industry will collapse in 10 years, and it has a massive future for New Zealand if it\u2019s sorted out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the volunteers that are involved, and some of this is difficult for them. So they are linked to a small club, whether that\u2019s in Central Hawke\u2019s Bay, in Waitakaruru, or in Wairoa\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210a1b91070e54263949be926626f58e4\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Great clubs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277aaf235030b452aa918bb42aa291392\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re great clubs, and they have a community focus and people work for nothing for years to keep them going; they put sheep on them to keep the grass down, they mow the lawns, they run all sorts of things from them. Same in Hastings; it\u2019s a bit more professional, they have a small secretariat of staff, but, none the less, a whole lot of volunteers on race day front up. So this is really important to them and their industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EI do want to congratulate the select committee, despite being somewhat belittled by members on the other side about their role, because we have now arranged a place where most members of this House have a level of comfort, particularly around what will happen to the courses. That was a stumbling block; I think, up until that point, we had big issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EI also want to thank John Messara for what he did in bringing his expertise from Australia to New Zealand. My understanding\u2014and I\u2019ll stand corrected\u2014is that he didn\u2019t get paid to do this; he volunteered to help New Zealand racing through its issues. I think we owe him a great deal of gratitude. I read his report, and, to be clear, I couldn\u2019t find too many things wrong with it; what I did find was that when the Government tried to interpret his report and bring it into first reading, it was incredibly different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EI also want to say that, even in my home town of Hastings, 10 years ago we fundamentally looked at a review of Hawke\u2019s Bay racing and the Hawke\u2019s Bay A\u0026amp;P Showgrounds, to relocate them both at the showgrounds in a $30 million facility. We would redevelop the land where the Hastings Racecourse is currently on for houses, and that was a way at that time of keeping Hawke\u2019s Bay racing solvent. Now, we couldn\u2019t get agreement and there wasn\u2019t enough money, but I point that out today because these challenges that the industry faces are not new; they\u2019ve gone on for a long time. The thing that I found interesting in that particular series of negotiations was that we had very similar people that were running Hawkes Bay Racing as were running the Hawke\u2019s Bay A\u0026amp;P Society\u2014good, hard-working Kiwis that cared about their role, their facilities, but they lacked the money, clearly, to make it all work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003ESo, in terms of the real nuts and bolts of the bill, the TAB and how it works has been amended to ensure that all racing codes and sport bodies have the ability to make specific nominations, based on merit, to sit on the board. Fundamentally, that means that everybody can be represented or has a chance of being represented. Before that, I even had people come to me from sporting codes, who were very uncertain and concerned that the racing industry would dominate the TAB, they would dominate the flow of money, they would dominate how the money was spent, and to the detriment of other sporting codes\u2014bearing in mind that many types of sports are now subject to some type of gambling on them. So this has been changed, and I think that\u2019s for the better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EI agree with Mr Bayly, who knows more about corporate law and how things work than I do, about the fact that intellectual property should remain with the codes rather than being transferred to the TAB. That has been heavily supported by the industry, and the select committee has arrived at that, and that\u2019s currently in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EJohn Messara recommended a new board called Racing New Zealand to undertake a number of roles, including setting race meeting dates and to act as a bridge between the TAB and the codes. At this point, I want to talk about that tension, and I see it in Wairoa particularly\u2014it\u2019s probably in Central Hawke\u2019s Bay, although I haven\u2019t heard as much about it. In Wairoa, they have a wonderful race meeting\u2014certainly once a year; sometimes twice a year\u2014but the problem is that it\u2019s a beautiful community outing but it doesn\u2019t make any money. The stakes aren\u2019t high enough; there aren\u2019t enough races. The TAB, fundamentally, has decided that they won\u2019t continue to keep being present on course and to televise the racing. Now, what that means is that, eventually, if the TAB keeps that going, then Wairoa will face a difficult future. So Racing New Zealand, as a new entity, has an ability to work between TAB and the codes to manage fairness and equity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EIn closing, in the last minute or so, the surplus of racetracks\u2014that has been a very contentious issue. So if you sit in my own electorate, my racetrack is fine. It will be fine and it will benefit from what this bill is trying to do. But if you go to Wairoa and Central Hawke\u2019s Bay, then their future is less clear. The ability, as was previously put in in the first reading, to mean that, effectively, Racing New Zealand could hoover these courses up and sell them and do whatever they wanted with them was widely opposed\u2014and so it should have been. But now we have new clauses which allow the racing club, if it doesn\u2019t think it can make a go of it, to have an ability to vest the proceeds back to the code, but if there are grounds for significant community interest, then, effectively, you can appoint an independent reviewer that can independently review everything and make a recommendation back to the Minister. That is the great work that the select committee did. I give all members, on both sides, credit for coming up with that solution\u2014because without that, I wouldn\u2019t be able to stand here and support this bill as I do. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00220a45853d5d7f4092af591042b115f424\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a45853d5d7f4092af591042b115f424\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As the only bookmaker ever to have been elected to this House, it is a great day to stand here and support this bill\u2014a bill that will save the industry, or certainly take successive steps towards doing so. It was needed. It is a long time coming. It should have happened in the previous Government, but here we are today. I echo the comments of those who acknowledge the work of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. I make one point to counter the claims of the Opposition benches: they cannot have made substantive changes by themselves, because they do not have a majority. What this demonstrates is that the select committee worked collaboratively. I think the National Party would have served themselves and served the racing industry better if they told that story of collaboration, because this is an important industry for the country and it is an industry that is recognised by all parties in this Parliament. Today is a good day. I\u2019m pleased to see this bill continue on to the next stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b5d71bb8a1243bf838cdf6032ab5162\u0022\u003EPublic Finance (Wellbeing) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022874722674ab54a998dcbe72835bf0c92\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6ef520010a14cc7a85e73876f58666a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6ef520010a14cc7a85e73876f58666a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Public Finance (Wellbeing) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Finance and Expenditure Committee for their studious work in going through this bill, and also for producing a very easy to read report from the committee, which I appreciate, and I\u2019m sure all members do, and thank them for returning the bill to the House in good shape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAn awful lot has happened since I first introduced this bill in September last year, but the impacts of COVID-19 serve to reinforce the importance of the changes that this bill is making, as we\u2019ve seen the devastating impacts of COVID-19 hit communities and economies worldwide. New Zealanders, more than ever, need a reassurance that their overall wellbeing is central to Government thinking and central to Government budgeting as well. And despite the strength of our economic and fiscal position going into COVID-19, we do need to bear in mind the health, environment, and social impacts of a pandemic such as COVID-19 and the long-lasting effects of those. So a wellbeing approach, as put into law by this piece of legislation, will continue to play a very important role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EJust before I move to talk a little more about the detail of the bill, I do want to highlight the fact that, as we put together Budget 2020, we endeavoured to do as we had done in Budget 2019 and do, effectively, what this bill now makes legislatively real, and that is include wellbeing reporting, include a wellbeing approach in the decision around priorities, and, overall, use it as part of our public financial tool kit. The reality, however, was that, when we came to put Budget 2020 to paper and finalise it, we were not able to complete the wellbeing outlook, which would be a core outcome of this legislation, simply because the people involved in doing so were 24/7 on the COVID response. That did not mean that wellbeing matters were not considered as we went through the COVID response and recovery programme, but it does mean that actually putting that into law in this way provides the belt and braces that I think we all, on this side of the House anyway, agree with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt was 31 years ago that the Public Finance Act found its way through this House. I don\u2019t think anyone here in the House today was present during that, but there are members of the House who were here. The Public Finance Act did make some profound changes to our system, and many of them are positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227689211a0fa5472da522783aad9af461\u0022\u003ERt Hon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: All of them are positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f25f580585a949149a74f557b15427db\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: And in later years, when the Fiscal Responsibility Act\u2014which Mr Carter was in the House for, I think\u2014was included into the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f02397884167435b9be5deda9220d41e\u0022\u003ERt Hon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Straight afterwards\u2014straight afterwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6c08c18142b48b6b2403a4eb7a35607\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, that\u2019s true because you were replacing somebody who had something to do with it, but the Public Finance Act encompassed, eventually, the Fiscal Responsibility Act. I do believe the level of transparency that it brings is something that is important and is safeguarded by the changes made in this bill. Indeed, through the COVID-19 period, we\u2019ve seen other jurisdictions struggling to generate data. The Public Finance Act actually has created and underpinned the system. It means that we have monthly accounts at a level and a depth that most other countries do not. So, actually, the system has served us well. But, as has been noted several times along the way, it is, however, narrow with regard to what it considers to be important when a budget, for example, comes to be put together. This Government, in particular, recognises that we need a much broader set of success measures. We have to go beyond the traditional gauges to get a full understanding of what is important in our society, what is needed to be funded, and use that to help assess what our priorities are and how we measure our success in going through that Budget process. So we have introduced this bill in large part to be able to ensure that that is now an automatic part of what we do within our public finance approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to reassure members across the House\u2014and this was raised in the first reading\u2014this in no way detracts from the core responsibilities under the Public Finance Act, and you\u2019ll see in the Budgets that were produced in 2019 and 2020 that we continued to do all of the long-term fiscal work that is already within the Public Finance Act. This is about adding to our tool kit. This is about making sure that we recognise the full life experience of New Zealanders when we are putting Budgets together and we are assessing what we do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo, to remind members very briefly, what the bill seeks to do is that the Government will be required, when creating future Budgets, to set wellbeing objectives and explain how those objectives will guide the development of its Budget, and for Treasury to report periodically on the state of wellbeing in New Zealand. As I say, we would look to do that at every Budget through the wellbeing outlook, but Treasury\u2019s independent approach to do that on a regular basis will also assist us to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is important that each Government has some flexibility on how it articulates what it thinks about wellbeing and adapts their approach over time. We will be required to take into account a broad lens of the selection of wellbeing objectives, taking into consideration social, environmental, economic, and cultural factors. Treasury will be responsible for preparing their wellbeing report, including\u2014and I thank the committee for their suggestions\u2014a set of indicators that will be used using their best professional judgment. The first report on this will be due in 2022 and then every four years from that. It will complement a range of current reporting tools, including the investment statement and the statement on the long-term fiscal position, which are also required, at least every four years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI believe we\u2019re striking the right balance between requiring an enduring focus on wellbeing but at the same time retaining sufficient flexibility for improvements and changes over time. When we put this in the context of wider public finance reform, it is important to note that we have built on what has come before. The use of Treasury\u2019s Living Standards Framework and its four capitals\u2014human, financial, natural, and social\u2014is a considerable advance on what had occurred under the previous Government. In addition to that, we now have Statistics New Zealand\u2019s Indicators Aotearoa New Zealand project, which has given us indicators across all dimensions of wellbeing for New Zealanders, and when you sit this alongside the Public Service Legislation Bill, which has been introduced and is soon to come before the House, again from Minister Hipkins, you see a full suite of changes to our framework that I think enhance transparency and improve the amount of information that is in front of both the Government and New Zealanders when considering our Budgets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo achieving genuine and enduring change in the way Budgets and policies are developed takes time. We know that we cannot meaningfully address long-term problems like child poverty, inequality, and climate change through a single Budget. We began our process with the first wellbeing Budget in 2019 that has now taken the first steps to measuring New Zealand\u2019s success more broadly. We\u2019ve delivered a Budget that embedded wellbeing at every step of its creation\u2014from priority setting to analysis of proposals, to the final trade-offs that a Government must ultimately make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis year, as I said at the outset, we were not able to fulfil all of those things in Budget 2020, but the wellbeing lens was important to the creation of the Budget, and the Budget itself still has the wellbeing of New Zealanders at heart. This Government is committed to taking a wellbeing approach to future Budgets, and this bill sets out the framework for that. At first glance, the changes introduced to the bill might appear to outsiders to be minor, but over time they will fundamentally improve the way Governments build Budgets and change the way we think about economic and fiscal policy in New Zealand. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb77a0afa72c405f831fe211a1326f1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb77a0afa72c405f831fe211a1326f1e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I recently got in trouble for using an expression that many people use, and I\u2019m going to use another one now, which is \u201CFine words butter no parsnips.\u201D I\u2019ve never quite understood what exactly that means, but I think the intent of it is to say fine words are all very well but it\u2019s actually the results and what you achieve that matters. That seems to be a theme that is becoming more and more prominent across the country as people see the difference between this Government\u2019s intentions and the reality. I remember Bill English, the previous Minister of Finance bar one\u2014Steven Joyce, of course\u2014he characterised this Government, I think, quite effectively at the start as one that has great intentions but very little ability to deliver that. We\u2019ve seen many instances of that recently, and this bill, with its fine words and its wellbeing, seems to me to be a perfect example of a Government that thinks that it\u2019s the PR and the description and the intentions that matter, losing sight of the important reality and accountability that needs to lie behind it. That\u2019s why we\u2019re not supporting this bill and we see it as a distraction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIf we think about the gap between the intentions and reality, nothing is more stark than the border. When you think about wellbeing, which is what this piece of legislation is about, there are two biggest issues. We had Professor Easterlin, one of the leading intellectual figures on wellbeing economics around the world, come to New Zealand, actually, last week, hosted by Professor Robert MacCulloch up at the University of Auckland. He made the point that the two biggest indicators, or the most important things, for wellbeing, right across the world, every country, are always the same: health and jobs. On the health front, there\u2019s nothing more important than keeping people safe, and we\u2019ve been talking about the border at the moment, and what have we seen? Well, we\u2019ve seen lots of fine words and lots of talk from the Prime Minister about how focused they are on getting things done. And what have we seen in reality? A complete shambles\u2014a complete shambles. So no doubt, if we pass this law, we\u2019d have a nice wellbeing intention in there that we\u2019re going to keep the borders safe, and the reality would be just the same: a shambles. That\u2019s what we\u2019ve seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI remember, when I was on the Epidemic Response Committee during the lockdown\u2014it was the greatest shock that I had through the whole process\u2014we had the Commissioner of Police come in, Mike Bush, his last day; not a good last day for him. He came to the committee, and we\u2019d heard all week the Prime Minister saying, \u201CAh, yes. People are coming in from offshore, but don\u2019t worry, New Zealanders\u2014don\u2019t worry\u2014because they\u2019ll go off to self-isolation but the police will check on them within three days to make sure that they\u2019re doing what they said they were going to do. Don\u2019t worry, New Zealand; we\u2019ve got everything covered.\u201D We come along to this committee on our Zoom little computers, and we asked Mike Bush: \u201CWell, have you been checking up on people within three days?\u201D His answer was \u201CNo. No, we haven\u2019t.\u201D So that just laid bare the big gap between intentions and announcements and promises by the Prime Minister and the reality. It was the same then as it is now. And anybody that has been watching the news over recent times will have seen that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s the lack of accountability that annoys people particularly. When things are going well, it\u2019s all about decisive action from the Government, and the Government\u2019s front and centre, the Prime Minister\u2019s front and centre. And, when it\u2019s going badly, well, it\u2019s the system\u2019s failure and those Ministers are nowhere to be seen. It is becoming a bit of a joke in this country: what does David Clark have to do to be sacked as Minister of Health?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203dafa61c2d94242a73c9d5fc03e3b4b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: If you can refer to that part of the bill, it would be really good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1317d9e525445f79166048bb6dd692a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I will. The point I\u2019m making is that this bill is, in its essence, about the statement of intentions about Government policy\u2014such as keeping people safe; such as keeping the border tough\u2014and they\u2019d have a little measurement, but it\u2019s the actual outcome that is the critical thing and the accountability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI could run through so many things that would be included in the great list of wellbeing focuses of this Government that have been a complete flop. I can start with KiwiBuild, where they would have included in their wellbeing list in the Budget 100,000 houses to be built by KiwiBuild, and the abject failure and lack of delivery of that. I think we\u2019re up to 323\u2014something like that\u2014fewer than the number of houses that the Prime Minister stopped from being built at Ihum\u0101tao by meddling and fiddling in that process. It\u2019ll be interesting to see if we ever hear anything about that. So KiwiBuild was a flop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EInfrastructure: we\u2019re going to roll out all this infrastructure. We\u2019re going to build the light rail down Dominion Road. That was going to help the wellbeing of people\u2014nobody\u2019s quite sure exactly how, because it seemed a very odd priority indeed and nobody was quite sure where it was going to. Was it going to M\u0101ngere or was it going to the airport? Was it going to be fast rapid transit or a slow tram? Nobody was quite sure, but, nevertheless, that was a focus, and it\u2019s not being delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, last year, at the first wellbeing Budget, with great trumpets, what did they announce? Mental health\u2014$1.9 billion; we\u2019re going to fix the problem. What have we seen, more than a year later? Well, nothing much, really. They\u2019ve managed to spend about $20 million on extra actual funding for actual mental health delivery, which is a woeful effort nearly three years after a Government came in promising urgent and rapid response to the number one issue of the day, and they\u2019ve been slow and ineffective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m not impressed by some glossy document being produced at the Budget calling itself a wellbeing Budget\u2014having the arrogance to suggest that every Budget that came before wasn\u2019t concerned about the wellbeing of New Zealanders. Of course they all were\u2014all of them have been. You don\u2019t have to be so arrogant as to assume you\u2019re the first Government to come along and care about the wellbeing of New Zealanders, just because you list a whole bunch of things and actually don\u2019t deliver them and have lots of intentions that you haven\u2019t followed up on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo poverty; so jobs\u2014well, we\u2019re losing jobs, and you can\u2019t blame the Government entirely for the job losses, of course, that we\u2019ve experienced over the past couple of months. They are to be expected from the extraordinary circumstances that we\u2019ve had to deal with, with the closing of the economy. But the relevant question now before the country is: well, what are we going to do to reduce the damage in terms of job losses, and how are we going to get the country back on track? That\u2019s where it becomes important to have a clear economic plan and good results from the investments that are then made. At the moment, the only economic plan that I can find that\u2019s guiding the Government is debt-fuelled Government spending on a colossal scale and waiting for a vaccine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that this country deserves better than that and needs better than that, and that\u2019s what we will be delivering over the next couple of months. When we think about a wellbeing Budget, we think about a Budget and Government policies and Government direction which is about encouraging the investment in the private sector to drive growth. It\u2019s the tens of thousands of businesses, large and small\u2014individuals and families making decisions about, \u201CYes, the world\u2019s changed; I think I can make a go of this area here or this area here.\u201D\u2014figuring out how to, first, save their businesses; second, to rebuild their businesses; and, third, hopefully, to grow those business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EPolicies that enable people or encourage people to do that by not overtaxing them, not regulating them to death, not changing the rules all the time, and allowing some investment to flow from offshore into those businesses\u2014that\u2019s the sort of thing that will improve the wellbeing of New Zealanders, because it will enable them to have a better chance of getting a job, a satisfying job, so that they can look after themselves and their families, so that they can provide opportunities for their kids to get ahead and know, and have the comfort to know, that their kids will be growing up in a country where they feel like they can reach their aspirations here. That\u2019s what we all want to see in this country. It\u2019s what we strive towards: a place where young New Zealanders can feel not like they\u2019re making some kind of lifestyle choice to live in this beautiful country of ours but that they are confident that they can reach their full potential in a dynamic, growing economy that produces the jobs and opportunities that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo that is my view of wellbeing, and it\u2019s a pity that we\u2019ve got a Government that seems to confuse the statement of good intentions and the reality of delivering on those. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce3cbc6f3cf24b3c8797567fca628cf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce3cbc6f3cf24b3c8797567fca628cf2\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, it\u2019s been interesting to me in the last few days\u2014as I\u2019ve moved about my home in Titirangi, as I\u2019ve come down here to Parliament, as I\u2019ve been out and about\u2014the place feels pretty much like usual: cars on the roads, people in the cafes, retail functioning, people at work. In fact, were it not for the closed borders, things would feel pretty much the same in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhy is that? It is because this Government put the health response first. And that, to me, is a metaphor for what\u2019s going on with this amendment to the Public Finance Act. It\u2019s a wellbeing amendment, and what it does is it says that wellbeing matters, that measuring it matters, that if we put that front and foremost in our minds, we will get the rest of it right too, because, contra the previous speaker, Paul Goldsmith, we are not the servants of the economy; the economy is the servant of us, and it\u2019s the servant of our wellbeing. That\u2019s what this bill sets out to achieve: that, as well as having all the fiscal measures in the Budget, as well as focusing on economic measures, we will also\u2014not instead of, but also\u2014have a look at wellbeing measures. And that is actually going to be tricky to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to remind the Opposition and people listening at home that, when GDP was first introduced, our gross domestic product, it was a controversial measure and it was disputed for many decades as to what exactly should be included in GDP\u2014that, at present, some things that we value, that have enormous value to us, never make it into GDP. Famously, Marilyn Waring has pointed out that women\u2019s work doesn\u2019t get counted in GDP, that GDP has some extraordinary difficulties in it in terms of things like\u2014the production of milk powder counts for GDP, but breastfeeding a baby doesn\u2019t. So it\u2019s interesting what we do and we don\u2019t value. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat we are trying to do with our wellbeing bill\u2014it will take time to correct those things\u2014is to add measures of wellbeing to what gets measured for the purposes of assessing the economy. I think that\u2019s a really important thing to do in terms of our Budget. So what is important to New Zealanders? What are we trying to measure through wellbeing? Well, we\u2019ll work that out over time. We have got the starting place of the Living Standards Framework. We\u2019ve got the starting place of Stats New Zealand indicators. They will get us under way. So that\u2019s a really important thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, I just sort of want to say here that\u2014there is a quote I want to put out here in terms of thinking about what actually matters to New Zealand. So Richard Easterlin, the recognised founder of wellbeing economics\u2014he was just quoted by the previous speaker\u2014says, \u201CIf you look at what has been done\u201D\u2014this is a really interesting quote and it really focuses on wellbeing\u2014\u201CIf you look at the concerns that are most important for people\u2019s wellbeing, it\u2019s three things: their job, family circumstances, and their health. The New Zealand approach involved a composite of attention to health and a job. So [what we did with] the wage subsidy, income support for the people that did leave their jobs \u2026 meant that people did not suffer nearly as much as they otherwise would have.\u201D Again, it was a focus of our Government\u2019s approach that was around wellbeing\u2014and that\u2019s terribly important to us as we face the COVID threat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThis is revolutionary work in a small and incremental way. Politics is a conversation. Economics is a conversation. The conversation over what wellbeing is\u2014and how it should be measured, and what we should focus on\u2014will go on for years and years and years, as it should, as it should. But, above all, we\u2019ll be guided by the basics. And for those basics, I want to refer to something that a great Labour Prime Minister said\u2014Norman Kirk\u2014and we quote it often because it is dear to our values: New Zealanders don\u2019t want much. What they want is someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work, and something to hope for. That is why I endorse this Public Finance (Wellbeing) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002281e45141e0b24c3f851f461d6df0741b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281e45141e0b24c3f851f461d6df0741b\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I must say, having listened to the member who\u2019s resumed her seat, Deborah Russell, this is not this peace and love out there in the community. I don\u2019t see it recently. People are getting sick to death of being told to go round and be kind to each other when all they want is the Government to be competent. I think that, instead of having a bill called the Public Finance (Wellbeing) Amendment Bill, we could just have instead a \u201CPublic Finance (Competence) Amendment Bill\u201D. People actually want the Government to do its job, and what we\u2019re seeing is an awful lot of talking about how it\u2019s going to be peace and light and everyone\u2019s going to just be happy and friendly and everything\u2019s going well and we\u2019re going to start measuring it, when we\u2019ve got a Government that no longer measures the sorts of things that a lot of people think a Government should\u2014for instance, whether or not they\u2019re actually undertaking the COVID-19 tests on people when they come through the border. People, strangely enough, think that that\u2019s actually quite important, and I know that the other side might not like hearing that, but that is actually the sort of thing that people want to know about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThey also want to know that something\u2019s happening about reducing assaults on children, and yet this Government has actually scrapped the targets about reducing assaults on children. As part of wellbeing, they might want to consider whether or not we could be looking at increasing participation in early childhood education, and yet that target that the National-led Government had has been scrapped by this Government. They might also, as part of wellbeing, think that it\u2019s a good idea to increase infant immunisation rates, but again, that target has been scrapped by this current Government. The public might also think that part of a wellbeing amendment bill might actually be focused on things like reducing total crime and reducing reoffending, and of course those have also been scrapped by this Government. This is a bill which is all about promoting an ideal which is that everyone\u2019s going to be all feeling well and it\u2019s all wonderful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EActually, you can\u2019t legislate for that. It\u2019s not possible to legislate for people to be having good wellbeing. What it is possible to do is to actually have a Government showing competency. We talk about something like mental health. Huge amount of effort put into mental health over various years by very, very many very deeply committed people, who have tried their very best in difficult situations. Instead what we\u2019ve seen is a big announcement in last year\u2019s Budget on mental health funding. The trouble is almost none of it\u2019s spent. What we saw instead on the ground was that the mental-health workers who had been for some years working with Counties Manukau police, Christchurch police, and also Wellington in the watch-houses\u2014or as they call it the custody suites\u2014removed; removed these people from the front line, where they were doing a tremendous amount of good. Where\u2019s that in the Public Finance (Wellbeing) Amendment Bill? Where\u2019s that? Where\u2019s the practical application of wellbeing? And the answer is that this Government\u2019s simply not up to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe member who\u2019s resumed her seat has talked about issues like jobs as being very important for people\u2019s wellbeing\u2014it certainly is. And what we\u2019ve seen so far are 40,000 people whose jobs have been lost through absolutely no fault of their own. And that is the sort of thing that we\u2019re going to be seeing more and more in this country. Once the wage subsidy finishes, once people start to realise that there are no jobs that they would be otherwise expecting, when we see a generation coming through that is looking at their education having been completed and no job to go to, that is what\u2019s going to affect people much more than a bill coming through Parliament telling us that we\u2019re going to take wellbeing seriously. People want their jobs, and the one thing that we know from any person is that being able to work, to be able to feel that they can contribute in a positive way and to feel that their contribution is valued and properly rewarded, is the single-biggest thing that anybody can do to help someone else\u2019s wellbeing. That is also the single-biggest thing that anyone can do for themselves, to help themselves mentally, physically, and financially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is really important that New Zealanders have some confidence in this Parliament in being able to help set some of the leaders around how we can keep people in work. What we can do, for instance, is we could, as part of this bill, be thinking about whether or not we could be fast-tracking any infrastructure projects, which we\u2019ve talked a lot about in Parliament but seen nothing of. We could, as part of this bill, be thinking about how we can help get people back into work where they have lost their jobs. Think of all the people in the tourist industry who have lost their jobs. Where\u2019s their wellbeing going to be on any matrix that this Government may wish to implement? It\u2019s going to be pretty bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI saw just recently on television a story of a man who is a pilot who is now working sorting mail for New Zealand Post. He showed the most incredible mental strength of being able to adjust his expectation of what he is able to do at this stage and showed incredible resilience. Most people in New Zealand will not have that sort of resilience. Most people will not be able to adjust themselves, their expectations, and their own mental health to be able to deal with the situation that\u2019s coming down the track at them, and that is the economic crisis that we are moving into. This is actually a time when the core functions of Government need to be very focused on how to reduce compliance costs, to reduce costs generally on businesses, and to keep people in work. As that gentleman showed on television the other night, all work is good work if you\u2019re paid for it and your health is actually part of that equation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWork is incredibly important. I am seeing people who are now deeply angry that their wellbeing has been put at risk by the lack of quarantine at the border. I have seen people who have moved from hoping everything was fine and their wellbeing would be fine to now wondering if they have not been told the full truth about what was happening, and that is what we\u2019re seeing. That is the single-biggest concern\u2014the fact that they do not trust what is being told to them on the health front. So how can they possibly trust what is being said on the economic front? This country is going through, and is about to move into, a very, very dangerous economic time\u2014a dangerous economic time for generations to have to deal with, to repay debt, to be able to deal with the fact that a lot of people who are used to working are no longer going to be able to work. They are going to deal with the fact that many students will be coming out of training and not being able to work. What this Government should be focused on is how to get people into work, and one of the best ways is to make sure that those businesses that employ people are focused and able to actually employ people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EInstead, almost everything we\u2019ve seen from this Government has been about restricting employers\u2019 ability to employ people, by putting rules around them, making it harder to take people on who you want to give a chance to. These are the sorts of people who are going to need help, and the best way of doing it is not about imposing more costs and restrictions on employers but actually helping those employers to be able to take risks and to give people an opportunity. Most people in this country are not employed by the Government. We should be very deeply grateful for that. That actually means that most people are engaged in activities that the Government shouldn\u2019t have to constantly interfere in, and most people are employed in small and medium size businesses. And it\u2019s those people, those small and medium size businesses and the owners of those businesses, the people who have risked their own capital and, in many cases, their entire financial wherewithal to employ other people\u2014they\u2019re the people who need help. They\u2019re not the people who are going to be impressed by a bill called the Public Finance (Wellbeing) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhat they\u2019re going to be doing is saying, \u201CWhen is this Government going to give businesses a break? When\u2019s this Government going to listen to small businesses? When are they going to look at those who actually employ people, who risk everything to do that, and give those people a hand?\u201D And that hand is not a hand to slap them down; it\u2019s a hand to build them up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u002205dff997ec444d2585b18c5b5b86c181\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205dff997ec444d2585b18c5b5b86c181\u0022\u003EMARK PATTERSON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to offer New Zealand First\u2019s continued support for this Public Finance (Wellbeing) Amendment Bill, which looks to upgrade the Budget-setting framework to take in a broader suite of measures. As we know, GDP is a very blunt tool. In fact, as Dr Russell outlined in her contribution, the bloke that actually developed it warned against using it as a very narrow measure, because it is a measure of economic activity but it is very narrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWe saw that in the previous term of the Government, when we had this illusion of what was called at the time a rock-star economy, when we had massive inequalities building up in this country. We saw people living in cars and on the streets and things that I never thought I would ever see in New Zealand. Those things were happening and were gathering pace whilst the very wealthy in this country were doing very well, thank you. Also, there\u2019s the issue of negative externalities, and we\u2019ve seen that in the environmental space, where some of our practices had led to negative environmental outcomes that we are now having to go back and try to reverse engineer and rectify. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThis bill does mean that the Government of the day will have to take in social, environmental, and cultural wellbeing alongside economic benefits. I think it speaks to New Zealand\u2019s character and our egalitarian heritage and ethos that I think most of us would aspire for this country to have. That\u2019s been our history, and this bill encapsulates that. We don\u2019t have to look too far back to the \u201Cmother of all Budgets\u201D. The \u201Cmother of all Budgets\u201D wouldn\u2019t have got through this framework\u2014that kind of slash and burn - type mentality that had repercussions for decades to come. This would not allow that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EYou know, I listened to the previous speakers from the National Party talking about\u2014well, I\u2019m not sure what they were talking about, essentially, in terms of where they were coming from, because I\u2019ve heard their leader, when asked what their plan was, say, \u201CWell, we don\u2019t know if we\u2019d borrow more or we don\u2019t know if we\u2019d borrow less.\u201D And, judging by some of the announcements that have come out since then, it will be borrowing more; essentially, paying employers to take people on. Last time I heard, that was called socialism, and I never thought I would hear that from the National Party, but it seems to be the muddled position that they are in at the moment. They just do not seem to know where they stand. But at least, under this piece of legislation, when it goes through, they will have to take into account this broader suite of measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThis is a more modern lens to have for our Budget-setting framework, so New Zealand First will continue to support this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022602161966872471199a1a14c5c8488f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022602161966872471199a1a14c5c8488f9\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E If I could just, first of all, comment on the contribution we\u2019ve just heard from Mark Patterson. He said that he didn\u2019t believe that the Ruth Richardson Budget of 1991 would have been accepted by this House under the new rules associated with the wellbeing framework. I might point out to the member that even Grant Robertson, in introducing the second reading of this bill, pointed out that Budget 2020 did not meet the wellbeing framework that the Government\u2019s promoted, either, because there simply wasn\u2019t time, in view of the COVID crisis, to adhere to the rules that the Government\u2019s attempting to establish around a wellbeing framework. So I don\u2019t think there\u2019s much validity in the argument advanced by Mr Patterson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ECan I start by saying I don\u2019t think there would ever have been a member of Parliament elected to this House that didn\u2019t come into this House caring for the wellbeing of all New Zealanders. To suddenly think that Budget after Budget\u2019s been presented in this House without a care at all for the wellbeing of New Zealand is, frankly, just nonsense. We had the first Wellbeing Budget presented with a lot of fanfare last year. Then, within 12 months, we had the next Budget, the 2020 Budget, delivered into this House and the framework being promoted by the Government\u2014it didn\u2019t have time to meet its own framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI say to the Government that, at a time when this country\u2019s facing an economic crisis like we haven\u2019t seen for 160 years, to start fiddling around changing the Public Finance Act with a little bit of fluffy nonsense shows just how out of touch this Government is with the suffering that most New Zealanders are facing today. We have massive and growing unemployment, we have business under real stress, and the Government\u2019s answer, in the dying days of this Parliament, is to bring forward a bill for its second reading which adjusts the Public Finance Act and incorporates the wellbeing framework. It just staggers me how out of touch Labour, New Zealand First, and the Green Party are with the situation\u2014the economic crisis\u2014that exists in this country today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson, in his contribution, noted the importance of the Public Finance Act enacted in 1989, coupled then with some very good work which the Hon Ruth Richardson did do: the Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1994. Both those pieces of legislation combined are recognised right throughout the world as delivering a fiscal security to Budget preparation that\u2019s been adhered to by successive National-led Governments, by successive Labour-led Governments\u2014basically, since the 1990s. But to come to a situation today whereby simply putting in a bit of fluff around wellbeing is going to suddenly change the nature and the delivery of wellbeing to New Zealanders, frankly, just does not stand the test. The Government should be facing the crisis that this country\u2019s in. There is real suffering out there. We all now know of businesses that were supported temporarily with a wage subsidy, and now that the wage subsidy is coming to an end, they are having to face laying off staff because businesses will not survive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDeborah Russell mentioned that everything was back to normal. She mentioned that retail in this country is good. Go and talk to the retailers, Deborah Russell. Just walk down the main streets of Wellington or Christchurch or Auckland and see for yourself that retailers are struggling. Everything is not fine. What New Zealand wants at this stage is a Government of competence. We started this term with a lot of talk around building tens of thousands of houses and KiwiBuild. That\u2019s almost been taken out of the lexicon now because it was an absolute failure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI do accept we then moved to the challenge around COVID-19, and for a long time the people of New Zealand were prepared to go along with the border restrictions, with the level 3, level 4, level 2, and now to level 1, in the belief we were getting COVID-19 under control in this country. But they expect\u2014and, in fact, they demand\u2014some competency around quarantining and some competency around our borders. Even today in the House, we cannot find out how many people have left compulsory quarantine\u2014assured of testing before they left\u2014how many people have now been able to leave from there without any tests being done? To me, it\u2019s simple. In fact, I think the Prime Minister gave us a figure this afternoon in question time: 4,300 people have now been quarantined and have left. The very simple question the country\u2019s asking is: how many of those people were tested?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ENow, it just defies belief that the Ministry of Health has not got a record of every COVID test, the person that was tested, the date it was done, the time it was done, and subsequently add to that record whether it was a positive test or a negative test. It just defies belief that that figure can\u2019t be available. And, in the meantime, while we\u2019re asking for competency from this Government, all they can do is rush forward with a piece of legislation that, incidentally, was introduced in the House last year, in September, reported back this year, in March, has sat on the Order Paper and suddenly, in the last few weeks of sitting of the 51st Parliament, Grant Robertson decides it\u2019s important enough to bring it into the House to progress a second reading today. It\u2019s that lack of competency shown by the Government that has every New Zealander worried. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ECan I just say, in my final comments on this piece of legislation, that the select committee received numerous submissions. We spent some hours working on this piece of this legislation, and we made one momentous change, one momentous change that Deborah Russell as the chair will be forever proud of. She has recommended, out of the whole bill, we remove the word \u201Cappropriate\u201D. So new section 26NB, in clause 8, \u201CWellbeing Report\u201D, as introduced said in subsection (2), \u201CUsing appropriate indicators, the report must describe\u2014(a) the state of wellbeing in New Zealand; and (b) how \u2026 [it\u2019s] changed over time; and (c) the sustainability of, and any risk to, the state of wellbeing in New Zealand.\u201D Fluff words, and our contribution through hours and hours of select committee work was to suggest the removal of the word \u201Cappropriate\u201D. Give me a break!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIf this is the most important thing this Government can do at a time of absolute economic crisis, God help us, and hurry up and bring on an election\u201419 September 2020\u2014and let the country wake up to the total incompetency of this Government. May we not see another three years of the incompetence of Labour, New Zealand First, and the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1abd8206dcb47d889d2eebfb8658d9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1abd8206dcb47d889d2eebfb8658d9e\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E It is always a pleasure to follow the Hon David Carter in debate. I want to just start by thanking him for his acknowledgment of what a well-crafted piece of legislation this was when it first entered the House\u2014that it required so little amendment as it passed through its select committee stage. I also want to thank the Hon Grant Robertson for bringing this legislation to the House and ensuring that we are going to be able to get through it before the House rises for the election. That is because this piece of legislation was actually part of the Green Party\u2019s confidence and supply agreement with Labour. It is good to be part of a Government that is delivering on something that the Green Party has stood for for several decades in this House. I also want to acknowledge Dr Kennedy Graham, because in some ways this bill is the inheritor of Dr Graham\u2019s member\u2019s bill of some years ago, the Public Finance (Sustainable Development Indicators) Amendment Bill, which was a first cut at saying, well, look, if you had to start thinking about a broader set of measures for the sustainable development of a country as part of your fiscal and budgetary process, how would that look?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI missed some of the earlier contributions, I\u2019m afraid. But I have to say, having listened to the contributions of the Hon Judith Collins and David Carter, I have some good news for them. One of the things that they were asking for is competent Government and why we don\u2019t measure competent Government. And I have some good news: (a) there is a competent Government, but (b) trust in Government is one of the measures that form the wellbeing framework. So we are actually doing the very thing that the Hon Judith Collins spent a good portion of her speech asking for, which is, actually, when you elevate it up, what we refer to as social capital, and the idea that you can trust in the institutions of Government and the broader Public Service are part of what got us through the worst of the COVID-19 crisis. Because we had built in this country, over many decades, a sense that we are all in this together, there\u2019s a strong sense of social capital, and that needs to be nurtured if we\u2019re going to get through the rest of this crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EMs Collins also asked for a measure about reoffending. The health of the justice system and the rate of reoffending is one of the things that forms the measures in the wellbeing framework. I\u2019ve got some news for the Hon David Carter in this, as well, who said, \u201CIs now the time, when we\u2019re in the middle of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, to be looking at the wellbeing of our people?\u201D I would say this is exactly the time that you want a coherent framework, a comprehensive and cogent framework, for looking at how our people and our country are doing. Ms Collins asked about, \u201CWhat is the practical application? Is this just some kind of piece of fluff?\u201D Actually, the good news, again, for the Hon Judith Collins is that the practical application of this comes down to our budgetary processes. The idea that, actually, bids that come forward to Treasury have to be measured not only on their traditional benefit-cost ratios but on this broader set of measures that says, well, how are they building our social capital, our human capital, our natural capital, our built-in environmental and cultural capital, as well. So all of the things that they were asking for, we are delivering, and it\u2019s a shame that they can\u2019t support that but there we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, I would like to just come back to some of the substance of the bill and some of the history which is reflected in it. One of the questions that have been raised in this debate is why it is that we\u2019re amending the Public Finance Act in reference to these questions around this broader set of measures as opposed to any other part of our legislative framework. If you think about finance as the measurement and management of built and financial capital, that has been the way that, you know, we\u2019ve treated the role of Government in this country for a very long time. That is, of course, what the purpose of the existing Public Finance Act is: is to say, well, how does Government measure, manage our built-in financial capital and assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, my second professional job was at that crazy hippie organisation Pricewaterhouse, back in the late 1990s; so this is over 20 years ago. Pricewaterhouse started looking at non-financial forms of capital that would be important in the measurement and management and running of its large corporate clients around the world. We started looking at things like social capital, and natural capital, and intellectual capital, brand value, and so on. A series of intangibles\u2014or some were tangibles and some were intangibles\u2014that added to the value of a company that far outstripped the aggregate of its, kind of, hard assets and financial capital. This was largely derived on some earlier thinking in the 1990s about the idea of a balanced scorecard that companies were starting to develop: the idea that you would have some kind of dashboard that included the company financials but also started to look at things like how are your people doing, how is your product doing, and so on\u2014this idea that you could develop a comprehensive view of the organisation that included, but was not limited to, its financial wellbeing. And so, really, all we are doing here is taking thinking that is decades old\u2014it stretches right back to the 1990s when the Public Finance Act had its genesis. And 20 years behind some of the most conservative accounting organisations on the planet, we are starting to think about how we incorporate that thinking into the running of a country. It\u2019s that simple. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing. We are developing a comprehensive set of indicators across our financial, our economic, our social, and our environmental capital and saying, \u201CHow are we doing as a country?\u201D And our traditional economic measures have an important role in that, but it is not limited to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe reasons for that have been well articulated on this side of the House. When you focus only on a narrow set of economic indicators, you lose the sense of how you\u2019re actually doing as a country. That is why we had year after year of GDP growth and people living in cars and garages growing at the same time. We had years and years of GDP growth and an extension of pollution in our rivers that got to the point that you couldn\u2019t actually swim in them anymore. Years and years of GDP growth and the worst housing crisis in this country\u2019s history, locking out first-home buyers, driving up house prices, causing endemic poverty around New Zealand. If you are going to have any sensible way of running a country at all, you have to look at these things side by side, and that is why the correct location for this work is inside the Public Finance Act, because, like I said, this thinking has been around for decades, the idea that financial capital is not your only form of capital. And for us to be able to have any sort of coherent sense of how our financial capital is doing versus our natural capital versus our social capital or our human capital, those things have to be inside the same framework. That\u2019s it. It is actually very straightforward. It\u2019s very simple. It\u2019s been around in the private sector that the National Party has worshipped at the altar of for decades. We are merely adopting what is now common practice around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EDavid Carter did say that our existing fiscal framework is the envy around the world; it\u2019s been acknowledged around the world. So is this. This is derived from an OECD framework; it has been picked up by other countries around the world\u2014Ireland is the most recent country to say that there is no reason that, just because we innovated something 30 years ago, we can\u2019t innovate something else now that will be similarly adopted around the world. There is a recognition that, actually, the framework that we\u2019ve operated under for three decades now has run its course and we do need to innovate. We do need to think more about the next 30 years and how we manage ourselves as a country. So I am delighted that we are paying attention to this bill at this particular time. It is critical that we look at the wellbeing of our people during the COVID-19 crisis, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022939663e0d07b4166b05b46c5539b56e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022939663e0d07b4166b05b46c5539b56e1\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I always quite enjoy following the co-leader of the Green Party. He always comes up with something new, and the new thing I have just learnt\u2014and it clearly is part of the wellbeing technology\u2014is that of a professional job. Frankly, I think this bill\u2019s a little bit of an amateur job, but none the less we\u2019ll get on to that in a minute. The last speaker also gave me little confidence in a competent Government, and it\u2019s taken them three years and many weeks of urgency, actually, to finally get this piece of legislation back for a second reading. If that was part of the confidence and supply agreement with the Greens, well, they\u2019ve got it here at last. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EWe in the National Party most certainly support the wellbeing aspiration of New Zealanders, and that was emphasised in the speech that our leader, Todd Muller, made in Te Puna a couple of weeks ago. There\u2019s no question that we all come to this House for the same reason; we just have very different ways of going about it at times, and I don\u2019t think that this bill is a way that\u2014well, I know that this bill is not a way we would have gone about this, and I\u2019ll explain why. We also support the view that Governments should have a broader focus than just GDP as the range of measures of success. One of the great challenges that this Government\u2019s going to face in the next year or two, or whoever is the Government in the next year or two, will be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225feb4915b36a4b0783e2d3f19ff83782\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for your endorsement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c925aeb37b4345668738032f9a4c72b1\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014you might hope you\u2019re not, James\u2014the fact that, if the Government\u2019s not careful, it\u2019s going to be the sole instigator of GDP in this country, and that, for an economy, is a massive challenge. So I think that, in the aftermath of COVID, it\u2019s most important that we have a broad source of GDP and that our Government encourages private enterprise to get moving on a lot of the issues that they would be very good at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe Public Finance Act is one of the pillars of Government in New Zealand, and I agree with the Minister that it\u2019s a very good piece of legislation. It\u2019s stood us in very good stead over the years, but it cannot be all things to all people. If it\u2019s meant to be all things to all people, it will most certainly undermine its focus and the very important role it plays in New Zealand\u2019s economic structure. I\u2019m one of those people who believes decision making involves something of a hierarchical process, and if we undermine the hierarchical process, we will not always get the outcomes we\u2019re looking for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI listened to a number of the submissions on this bill and I thought that some of them were very good submissions on wellbeing, and I guess the thing that I wondered was how it actually fits into the Public Finance Act and how some of those submissions fitted with what this bill is designed to achieve. One of the submissions I particularly enjoyed, and the first thing is it was a submission from Marilyn Waring, who talked at length on issues of wellbeing in New Zealand. It\u2019s been, of course, a lifelong\u2014I suppose you could almost say\u2014love for her and a thing that she\u2019s concentrated on, and she had an opportunity in this bill to put her point very strongly. But, under this bill, in the first part of the bill, the Government\u2019s required to report annually on its wellbeing objectives in the Budget. One would imagine that, for this to mean anything, we\u2019d be provided with comparisons or with a form of measuring those wellbeing objectives, and I have yet to see any proof that that\u2019s going to be given to us in a form that is easy for the public to understand and is usable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe second part of the bill relates to Treasury\u2019s role in this, and Treasury is to report periodically on the state of wellbeing in New Zealand. I think the bill recommends that \u201Cperiodically\u201D might mean \u201Cfour years\u201D, or four-yearly, which clearly means that you\u2019re going to get in one term of Government a year with no report in it, and maybe the other two with a report in them, and you\u2019d never know how that would work out. But how this relates to the first requirement of the Government to report on its wellbeing objectives, I\u2019m not quite sure. There\u2019s no clear direction on how that would happen, and I can imagine the vociferous noise coming out of finance Ministers of all ilks when Treasury reports something they don\u2019t like, because you only have to listen to the actions of this Government when Treasury\u2019s talked about things they don\u2019t like to see that Treasury will come under significant criticism if, in fact, it doesn\u2019t agree with the Government\u2019s view. So I think the whole objective of this is a bit unusual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EIn the Minister of Finance\u2019s first reading speech, he stated\u2014and I\u2019ve yet to understand it fully\u2014\u201Cthe exclusive focus of the Public Finance Act on fiscal matters means that we are not, in creating our Budget, looking at the full range of measures that define a country\u2019s success from an economic point of view or, indeed, specifically here, that define [what\u2019s] in a Budget.\u201D I think we get elected to this House to bring our collective views to what appears in a Budget, at the end of the day. To achieve that, we rely on a whole lot of information given to us by all sorts of agencies, but we\u2014most importantly\u2014need to understand the facts, and we often don\u2019t understand those facts. Given the statement by the Minister of Finance in his first reading speech, I don\u2019t think that that\u2014including in the Public Finance Act\u2014is going to make it any easier or any simpler for the Government to develop a Budget. I just think that it\u2019s blurring the edges, basically. I think that we need to have sound, concrete statistics, and shortly after arriving on the Government benches, this Government scrapped the 10 public service targets that the previous Government had put in place. Those public service targets measured things specifically, and they were very useful determinants of what was going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe other thing they\u2019ve done since then was to scrap the health targets, and I think we can argue all we like about the structure of the health industry in New Zealand, but the health targets were a very useful indicator of what was going on. I\u2019m testament to that because I\u2019ve now got a new leg, and I tell you what an amazing difference it makes to you. If the health system can provide a difference like that to people\u2019s lives, we need to be measuring how quickly it\u2019s doing it and how efficiently it\u2019s doing it. I think it\u2019s most important that we have targets in our system and that we not only have targets but we have measurements that we can clearly understand and that are accessible and easy for the public to understand. That\u2019s one of the challenges I think we have with a lot of things that we do in this House: we don\u2019t make it easily understandable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that I referred earlier this afternoon to a select committee process that I thought was pretty extraordinary, and it was hugely collegial. The select committee process on a lot of these bills doesn\u2019t consider alternative views, and this one didn\u2019t consider many other views at all. It pretty much came back to the House as it was, but that\u2019s not unusual for legislation to do that after going through a select committee process. I think it\u2019s critical that we have a strong, resilient, and sustainable economy and good decision-making by Governments, and good policy development and legislation regulation made by Governments is absolutely critical to good decision-making and to a good, strong, and sensible economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ELastly, I just want to refer to another issue that James Shaw talked about, and that was that there are many other measures than financial capital. I suppose, being a farmer, I know there are many other measures than financial capital, because the financial capital is the last thing you need to consider in running a business like farming. You need to have it of course, but, actually, there\u2019s a whole lot of other capital that you use in the course of farming: environmental capital, livestock wellbeing\u2014all sorts of things. So I think the background I come from gives you a very good understanding of all the types of capital you need to run a business or a society, and, actually, farms, in a funny way, are societies. They\u2019re societies of animals and humans all mixed together, and I think it\u2019s pretty important that we understand that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m not sure where this bill\u2019s going to get to or where the result of this bill will get to in the future, but I do think that trying to combine all of those, I suppose, \u201Cwellbeing factors\u201D into a thing called the Public Finance Act\u2014I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the answer. I think there are much better ways of doing that in the future. Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00223d08a9fe01a0404999e2712d3a067f78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d08a9fe01a0404999e2712d3a067f78\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2d25b3bfcaa403a8f60de428be3237f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2d25b3bfcaa403a8f60de428be3237f\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to begin by acknowledging the optimism of the previous speaker, Ian McKelvie, around this Government being returned after the election. So thank you for that vote of confidence, to the member. Look, this bill is about leadership. It\u2019s about the Government putting the wellbeing of people at the centre of all it does. I\u2019m just going to take a very brief call, but I\u2019d just like to highlight that something that\u2019s come out of this bill is the Waikato Wellbeing Project, which is a regional initiative based on 10 Waikato wellbeing targets, based on the UN Sustainable Development Goals, an exciting project that we\u2019ve seen come from the leadership the Government is providing. I expect we\u2019ll see more of that, more of those examples spring up across the country. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022 data-id=\u002205481870e16048769cbc19ed820aea49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205481870e16048769cbc19ed820aea49\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this bill. I wish to reflect on what a couple of my colleagues have said prior to me taking this call, and that is that it\u2019s all very well setting targets and it\u2019s all very well incorporating wellbeings, but what\u2019s more important is what you actually deliver on and how you measure yourself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003ESo the principal difference, I think, between both sides of the House is that National has had targets when it was in Government. It had 10 Better Public Service targets. They were measureable, and, effectively, they measured a whole lot of things, including reducing welfare dependency, increasing participation in early childhood education, increasing child immunisation rates, reducing assaults on children, increasing NCEA qualification rates, reducing total crime, and reducing reoffending. That was a set of targets, they were measured, they were looked at, and they were reviewed on an annual basis. We also had a whole heap of targets in the health sector, which sought to measure the performance, the number of operations, the number of electives. This Government came in and, basically, chopped all that out, and said, \u201CWe\u2019re kind and caring, and we\u2019re different to the last lot, and we are going to make a fundamental difference.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EIn reality, on just about every single measure I can think of, probably every measure, I can\u2019t see any of that being achieved. Whether you\u2019re talking about housing, whether you\u2019re talking about mental health, big promises have been made but there are no specific targets to measure any of it. As a result, over time, we have learnt through written and oral questions from Ministers the rate of delivery. The housing one\u2019s a classic\u2014the housing one\u2019s a classic: big promises at the election but a spectacular failure nearly three years into that first term of Government. Light rail\u2019s another one\u2014big promise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225926981459d94dd88e98e1d8f1f752c6\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: How\u2019s that going?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7112a88ff2c4b7b92d1a1d85e93b7dd\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think it\u2019s going anywhere. I don\u2019t actually think there is a plan, and it\u2019s certainly not going to have been started by the start of this election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003ESo if you look at all those things, it is very easy to bring in a wellbeing sort of set of measures in the Public Finance Act and all you do is dilute and diffuse the objectives of what the Government\u2019s doing because there\u2019s no measurement around it; there\u2019s no long-term, sustainable targets. We\u2019re just going to look at a series of things and it\u2019s going to influence our policy. What New Zealanders need is delivery of things that they are promised at the election from any political party. Our party\u2014this party that I\u2019m part of\u2014have sought out to name and list some pretty significant targets, and the Rt Hon Bill English was largely responsible for that, because he saw, over his time in Parliament, decades of people talking about doing things and nobody ever doing it because it wasn\u2019t measured. We oppose this bill on the basis that it just adds fluff\u2014as the Rt Hon David Carter has said previous to me\u2014just adds fluff to a whole lot of stuff, and it\u2019ll make no difference whatsoever to anybody in terms of delivery. Who\u2019s going to look at it, who\u2019s going to listen to it, who\u2019s going to read it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EIn relation to Mr Jamie Strange, who spoke previously to me about the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, I\u2019ve been to New York a number of times and I\u2019ve sat in those meetings and they\u2019re all laudable what they want, but, fundamentally, what New Zealanders want is a job, somebody to love them\u2014as I think Deborah Russell said\u2014some shelter, and a sense of safety; that\u2019s really what they want. They\u2019re not interested in what the United Nations is saying\u2014they\u2019re not interested in the United Nations. When you boil it down, all this is is diluting targets that the Reserve Bank and a whole lot of other people have to measure because the fluff gets so murky that they don\u2019t know who the master is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EWe oppose this bill. We had some set-out, clear, difficult targets to achieve, but we had them on the basis that they made a difference to New Zealanders\u2019 lives, and as such we oppose the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c906e77319a54933b6e54232859982a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c906e77319a54933b6e54232859982a7\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on this piece of legislation. What we have with this piece of legislation is a bill that embeds the wellbeing approach by requiring the Government and Treasury to report on the objectives and the state of wellbeing of New Zealanders. Why is that such a terrible thing for members opposite to comprehend and understand? It\u2019s disappointing, to say the least, to see members opposite joking and ridiculing the wellbeing of New Zealanders, the arrogance and negativity to call it fluffy nonsense. Since when has caring about the wellbeing of New Zealanders been fluffy nonsense? Disappointing\u2014negative National, as always. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224d43fae6db6a4d6bb76de93e1609087b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d43fae6db6a4d6bb76de93e1609087b\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker\u2014oh, hello.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cb6468350684912ac55d40fa00ea7db\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I called you already. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5a19071ac5a408c83977343694283f6\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you\u2014I didn\u2019t hear you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cd9c5b511d54055880878c96da26260\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just not as loud in the voice as others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244c3a234b4a84d60a845e71ec57449ac\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. It was obviously the Government members trying to talk over the top and interrupt what was going on. I couldn\u2019t hear you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWell, I believe I\u2019m the last speaker on this Public Finance (Wellbeing) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226dd1053cb71420c838bc1fee883adfe\u0022\u003EDr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Second to last.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251e3c7c2e2114ef9aea191bf129076f7\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, second to last. Sorry, Ms Russell. The issue about this bill\u2014and the previous speaker, Jo Luxton, just said, well, you know, we don\u2019t understand it and it\u2019s wrong\u2014it\u2019s wrong that the Opposition is so negative. I find that really quite an outlandish statement to make. One of the things that people say about National is that we are ruthlessly disciplined and have ruthless objectives. If anything, they say we over-measure. I haven\u2019t yet ever met someone who\u2019s said, you know, \u201CNational\u2019s soft and flabby. You don\u2019t like measuring and all that sort of stuff.\u201D Here we are. We\u2019ve got a bill here that\u2019s starting to introduce a somewhat ill-defined concept into public finance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EJust to demonstrate, I think the person in National that best demonstrates that ruthless discipline in terms of making sure we deliver fantastic results and performance was Steven Joyce. In fact, many of my colleagues here just talk about him just pulling out the list of the targets that we had\u2014and we had all these public sector targets\u2014and he would sit there and go through the 261 of those targets and ask Ministers where they got to on number 203. If they hadn\u2019t made enough progress, he would be doing it. We had lots of public service targets. Just an example: reducing welfare dependency, increasing participation in early childhood education, reducing assaults in children, increasing NCEA qualification rates, reducing total crime, reducing reoffending, and then we had all the health targets and all these other ones that we had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e60d89739674f669ab97bbb586f6601\u0022\u003ERt Hon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Where are those targets now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e93161db7804e9c80a0e031236ec5f6\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, the Rt Hon David Carter. Where are those targets now? That\u2019s the issue. We ask day in and day out of the Minister of Health what\u2019s happened to those health targets. I\u2019ve heard my colleagues talk about where we\u2019ve got to on mental health. Literally only $27 million has been spent on it, even though the Government announced they were going to spend, I think, $1.8 billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242570df1bd144234936b6d30f4b5a6cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: 1.9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d1c7a5bdac14fe2b9f9beaa328bb8dd\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: $1.9 billion\u2014I stand corrected. That is the big difference. We were ruthlessly focused on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut what we\u2019ve got with this bill is a bill that gives the warm glow of incompetence. It is one that we feel like we\u2019re going to feel better, we\u2019re going to make New Zealanders more connected, by somehow adopting this concept of wellbeing. We have sat in the Finance and Expenditure Committee and had presentation after presentation on the wellbeing process. We\u2019ve talked often about the measures that they want to adopt. It\u2019s very nice that the Minister of Finance is here. It would have been very important for him to actually be there, actually. One of the things that just repeatedly comes through those presentations\u2014repeatedly comes through those presentations\u2014is that this is an evolving concept and New Zealand is somehow out the front. When we asked about specific measures, they\u2019re in the process of being developed. We are going from one Government, when we were in power, that was ruthlessly\u2014one would almost say overly\u2014focused on targets to one that is now about wellbeing; these soft measures that are unquantified, unspecified, and, certainly, not measured. That is the interesting thing in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThis bill really, for the amount of time we spent on it, resulted, as many have commented, in one change, which is, in clause 8, new section 26NB \u201CWellbeing report\u201D. Rather than saying \u201C(2) Using appropriate indicators,\u201D, we\u2019ve deleted the word \u201Cappropriate\u201D and said, \u201C(2) Using indicators, the report must describe\u2014(a) the state of wellbeing in New Zealand;\u201D\u2014that\u2019s an interesting concept. I\u2019m not sure how that\u2019s going to be defined yet. It sounds nice. It\u2019s got that warm glow, Minister of Finance. It sounds nice. I don\u2019t know what that means. There\u2019s \u201C(b) how the state of wellbeing in New Zealand has changed over time;\u201D. Well, if we had a starting point\u2014if we knew what the measure was\u2014we could measure it over time, but, actually, we\u2019re missing that first instrumental part. And there\u2019s \u201C(c) the sustainability of, and any risk to, the state of wellbeing\u201D\u2014again, beautiful language\u2014beautiful language. I do feel warm and glowing from that. But that is the issue\u2014that is the issue about this. It doesn\u2019t actually deliver the specific things that we really want to know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EActually, we\u2019ve now got a Minister who has overseen quite radical changes in the public sector. The first one was to the Reserve Bank, where the Minister of Finance introduced the second target for the Reserve Bank, around making sure we have full employment. Then we had the Budget reforms that we now talk about wellbeing. And now we\u2019ve got this: the Public Finance (Wellbeing) Amendment Bill. Now, if we happen to be in power on 20 September, I literally do not understand how we will go about trying to put this in place. I challenge all the members on the other side to be clear about it, because no one in the Finance and Expenditure Committee has any oversight or understanding of what this specifically means. That\u2019s the issue with this\u2014that is the issue with this. None of those advisers could help us on that aspect. That is why we\u2019re against it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course we not only want to see New Zealand improve from an economic perspective, which is really good, but we want to see it improve from a social perspective, law and order perspective, and community perspective\u2014all that sort of stuff. To put this into a legal framework, you need to have done a lot more work than what\u2019s gone on. It\u2019s nice to be able to talk about it. It\u2019s obviously going to come through in future Budgets if the Government gets back in. But, unless it delivers better outcomes for all New Zealanders\u2014unless it delivers better outcomes\u2014it is all fluff, to use the Rt Hon David Carter\u2019s comment. I think that\u2019s a shame. We should have done more work. We should have done the hard yards before we set about trying to implement a bill like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u00220918abb2cc76462bbaaff064782235c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220918abb2cc76462bbaaff064782235c8\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a delight to take a short call to finish off this debate. The previous speaker who just resumed his seat, Andrew Bayly, seemed to be pining for the past when he talks about \u201Cwhen we were in power\u201D and he refers to his ruthless Government that was in power and did whatever they needed to do. There was another member, Andrew Bayly. Andrew Bayly was harking back to the past, talking about Bill English and John Key. Well, actually, this is no longer the party of Bill English and John Key; they\u2019re a totally different party. In fact, this is a party who has discovered a new word. We\u2019ve heard it all through their speeches, a new word. It is \u201Ccompetence\u201D\u2014competence from the safe-cracking party. What a laugh! I bet you New Zealanders wish that they had discovered that word when they were in Government, because they weren\u2019t exactly a Government of competence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EJudith Collins mentioned that people want a Government to do the job. Now, this was the National Government\u2019s record of competence: people living in cars, under bridges, and in tents; kids doing homework in the back of the car; and not being able to jump into the stream for fear of getting sick. That is their record of competence. We are fixing all those long-term challenges, and, at the same time, we are measuring it against wellbeing measures\u2014stuff that actually matters to people. As my colleague Deborah pointed out, the question is: what actually matters to people? Well, it isn\u2019t anything that the National Government did when they were in power. So I commend this bill to the House. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThe question was put, That the amendments recommended by the Finance and Expenditure Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002240dcbc1f281c47289ba0c9f71a86452a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222e727553022b4972a83fb3b2128c9fa6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Public Finance (Wellbeing) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6b05edce820401c9264cf5b96a038b3\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (First for 2020/21) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226bf0d58306914ec2a4e528bb49d74283\u0022\u003EIntroduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000477\u0022\u003EBill introduced.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4d3dcb762fb46f4bdcdb965619913f6\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00227b52f59b727a4e6896442410007c7cc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b52f59b727a4e6896442410007c7cc2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Imprest Supply (First for 2020/21) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b5087613d754289b01fdd4a0be61da6\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2019/20 Supplementary Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b5087613d754289b01fdd4a0be61da6\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (First for 2020/21) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223310024f09d14c0399e97f37d062c537\u0022\u003ESecond Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00220fbde78c90184ab68c48be945f526c5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fbde78c90184ab68c48be945f526c5c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2019/20 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and the Imprest Supply (First for 2020/21) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI thought it might be helpful at the outset to let members know exactly what these two bills are. The Appropriation (2019/20 Supplementary Estimates) Bill makes new appropriations and changes to appropriations in the 2019/20 Estimates to reflect the decisions taken by the Government since the 2019/20 Estimates were finalised in April 2019, prior to Budget 2019. The Imprest Supply (First for 2020/21) Bill provides an interim bulk spending authority for the first three months of the 2020-21 financial year until the Appropriation (2020-21 Estimates) Bill is passed by the end of September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe total imprest sought through the Imprest Supply (First for 2020/21) Bill is greater than that provided by the Imprest Supply (First for 2019/20) Act. This is a reflection of both the Government\u2019s fiscal response to COVID-19 and the considerably heightened economic uncertainty resulting from the global pandemic. The Imprest Supply (First for 2020/21) Bill seeks to provide sufficient authority for the Government to incur a maximum of $40 billion in expenses and $10.5 billion in capital expenditure and $1.7 billion in capital injections until the Appropriation (2020-21 Estimates) Bill and the Imprest Supply (Second for 2020/21) Bill are passed. These figures account for the financial implications of the decisions made as part of Budget 2020 through the COVID-19 Response and Recovery Fund and other COVID-19 - related spending. Although the Government does not expect to incur expenditure of this magnitude before the passing of the Appropriation (2020-21 Estimates) Bill, it is standard practise for imprest bills to provide sufficient supply to cover fiscal risk as well as the uncertain timing and spread of expenditure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI give notice that at the end of the second reading, there will be a committee of the whole House stage of the Appropriation (2019/20 Supplementary Estimates) Bill to consider a Supplementary Order Paper to incorporate into this bill the changes to appropriations and new appropriations for 2019/20 contained in the addition to the 2019/20 Supplementary Estimates that I presented to the House last Tuesday. This is something that has happened before in this House in the wake of the Canterbury earthquakes, when decisions have needed to have been taken after the time that they normally would be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002288dd699186bd41399397ff0f960600b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288dd699186bd41399397ff0f960600b7\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. As the Minister quite rightly pointed out, these two bills actually are very interrelated. First, the need to reflect new or changed expenditure from the finalised 2019-20 Estimates, which were presented prior to the Budget earlier this year, and then, of course, needing to cover the additional spending for the first three months of this financial year, which is 2020-21. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAs the Minister says, the amount that\u2019s been set aside at $40 billion for additional spending, at $5 billion for capital spend, and also another $1.7 billion for capital injections is by any standards the most incredible level of financial expenditure, I think, probably in New Zealand\u2019s history. Even on a comparative basis, I would imagine that these amounts are just so staggeringly large that every other time that we\u2019ve had these types of initiatives, even during the global financial crisis, the amount of money that\u2019s been allocated to deal with the COVID-19 process is absolutely outstandingly large. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think that is a real question for all of New Zealanders to ponder, because I don\u2019t think for a moment anyone thinks that we shouldn\u2019t be spending large amounts of money to support vulnerable New Zealanders, and particularly vulnerable businesses in New Zealand, particularly at a time when we\u2019ve had the process of trying to at least eliminate the COVID infections in New Zealand. It was right and proper that support measures were put in place. The primary one has been the wage subsidy, which has amounted to roughly about $11 billion so far. An interesting point, it\u2019s 50 percent of the average wage in New Zealand, whereas most countries around the world did 80 percent. That is a large portion of the additional spending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think one of the areas we haven\u2019t seen any support in\u2014I think this is a very disappointing area and one that we might have contemplated if we had been in Government\u2014is the lack of support for businesses, especially in the area of rental support. Using Reserve Bank valuations of commercial industrial buildings, if the Government had subsidised 50 percent of all rents that were paid to independent landlords for industrial and commercial properties in New Zealand, that would have cost $300 million a month or $1 billion for three months. I think, unfortunately, that is one of the big things that has happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EEven though we allocated $40 billion here, the mix of spend that the Government has chosen to apply, in my personal view, has been that it\u2019s not well balanced. It underspent in terms of support for employees\u2014wage subsidies during the actual lockdown period should have been 80 percent\u2014but didn\u2019t deal with the issue of rental support for businesses. The result of that is that now many businesses, three months down the track, who\u2019ve only just been able to do approximately 10 days of work last month and will have now invoiced for those 10 days of work and will now, hopefully, later this month receive the first lot of payment in three months\u2014during that period, not only have they had to deal with half their labour costs, and labour normally reflects about 40 percent of any business\u2019s total costs, they\u2019ve had to top up half of that for the last three months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second thing is they\u2019ve had to deal with and pay for rent, which accounts for roughly about 20 percent of everyone\u2019s profit and loss. On top of that, and everyone seems to have forgotten that, all businesses face another 40 percent of general overheads, whether they\u2019re power, lighting, whatever it might be, general overhead that they\u2019ve had to incur. As a result, we\u2019ve now got businesses perilously close where many of them do not have cash reserves at all and are waiting and hanging on for the wage support. I think that is the travesty of where we\u2019ve ended up. Even though we\u2019ve spent a lot of money, we\u2019ve ended up with a travesty that many of our smaller businesses in New Zealand\u2014we have 320,000 of them, mums and dads in many cases, less than five employees\u2014those businesses are so financially constrained now, their owners\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0381b2339b04b41b9954fddc796aa07\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very sorry to interrupt the member. The time has come for the House to have a dinner break. The House will resume at 7.30. Andrew Bayly has four minutes, 54 seconds remaining should he wish to take it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa818fc75bfc4301931ab280192981f8\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Just to remind people what we\u2019re actually talking about right now, this is the Estimates and the imprest supply bills. So as the Minister said just before the break, what the Government wants to do is to put in place enough funding for the first three months of the 2020-21 financial year. So what this bill does is set aside $40 billion for working capital purposes\u2014if I can use the business term\u2014$5 billion for capital expenditure, and $1.7 billion for injection into Government-owned entities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat I was saying before the break was that we do need to invest heavily, and I was talking about the level of support given in terms of wage subsidy at 50 percent rather than 80 percent and the lack of any financial support around rental arrangements for small businesses. Having costed that, that\u2019s worth about $300 million per month if the Government had chosen to do that. What that would have done is protect, husband the cash that those small businesses have, which right now are in a critical, perilous state because they haven\u2019t been able to invoice, basically, anything for three months and they\u2019ve had to carry not only the top-up of the wages but also the rent that they\u2019ve had to pay, plus the remaining overheads that all businesses incur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo we accept the principle that the Government needs to spend. But this $40 billion is on a herculean scale. It is something that we\u2019ve never seen before in New Zealand\u2019s history. We didn\u2019t even do that level of spending during the global financial crisis, and the total bill for the Christchurch earthquake was $20 billion for the Government and $40 billion for the wider industry. So that just puts this $40 billion for the first three months into a context of the scale of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve seen is that we\u2019re going to see debt rise from roughly $60 billion over the next few months to close to $110 billion, and the financial cost of that, the interest cost of that, is going to be $3.5 billion a year. Again, to put that sum of $3.5 billion into context, that is the same cost as the New Zealand Government writing out a cheque to fund the New Zealand police force in New Zealand every year. The cost to the police force is the equivalent of the additional funding we\u2019re going to have to find to service this increase in debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat is worse, this document, this Budget document and the Estimates that are all part of it going forward\u2014over the next four years this Government is proposing to run deficits totalling in excess of $100 billion, which will result in this Government and this country and every New Zealander facing a $200 billion deficit or debt figure. That\u2019ll be an annual interest cost of roughly $7.5 billion. It is staggering. The largest surplus that the Government\u2019s ever recorded is about $7 billion. That is just servicing the debt; it is nothing about repaying the debt. That is the most dangerous thing about this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EPart of this $40 billion that\u2019s in here, we know that the Government has been clear that they have set aside $20 billion. It is yet to be specified what it\u2019s going to be applied to, but it\u2019s going to be spent over the next couple of months prior to the election. That is the issue that we have. We do agree that good investment by this Government should be made to support vulnerable New Zealanders, to support vulnerable businesses who employ vulnerable New Zealanders, and we should be looking after our communities, but this is a Government that has little discipline. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting, when you go through this document, some of the Estimates that are included and some of the costs\u2014like if I just look here: the Prime Minister\u2019s and Cabinet fund over the next four years is going to increase by $7 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbb99267797949719615a117a38f73dc\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: What page\u2014what page?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022722b89bd0fa44646b2678e695a198d90\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Page 80. If I look at \u201CSaving the Crown\u2019s audio-visual collection\u201D, another $10 million to be spent, plus $32 million of capital expenditure. If I look at some of the other aspects, there\u2019s $6 million set aside immediately after the election for Ministers to be able to reassume their offices. That there is a staggering amount of money just for offices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef4c3e92682a4c08bfc6dbbf7a5e1e04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef4c3e92682a4c08bfc6dbbf7a5e1e04\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I want to pick up on something which the speaker immediately before me, Andrew Bayly, has said. He said that we have never before seen spending on this scale. He\u2019s correct. We have never before seen Governments having to spend on this scale. I say \u201CGovernments\u201D because it\u2019s Governments around the world. Of course, Governments around the world, including our Government, are spending on this scale because we are facing a situation which we have never seen before. We are facing the extraordinary situation of a global pandemic, and not just a pandemic like the previous great one that we experienced, the 1918 influenza commonly known as the Spanish flu. This is an illness different in nature from that, but it is still just an illness. The difference is our interconnected world. The difference is the speed with which this virus has spread around the world, affecting virtually every nation. It is an extraordinary situation and it has called for an extraordinary response by our Government and by Governments everywhere. So our Government has, with courage, taken the steps to do the best we can for New Zealand in this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EJust bear with me for a moment while I tell you a little story, because it\u2019s going to bear directly on the Supplementary Estimates that we are speaking to. I was out doorknocking on Saturday afternoon, as one does when an election\u2019s coming up\u2014and very enjoyable it was, too; it\u2019s always fun. I knocked on the door of one house, and there was a couple there, and they said, \u201COh, we\u2019re a bit busy; no, we\u2019ll talk.\u201D, and they said, \u201CThe thing is we\u2019re going through CVs at the moment because we\u2019re looking to hire someone.\u201D I said, \u201COh, that\u2019s great news. You\u2019re hiring someone.\u201D And they said, yeah, yeah, they are, they\u2019re working through the CVs. They\u2019re a truck rental company and they were looking to take on another staff member. I thought, \u201CWell, that\u2019s marvellous. You\u2019ve obviously come through quite well.\u201D They said, \u201CWhen you see Jacinda, could you say thank you\u2014thank you because the wage subsidy saved our business.\u201D Those were their words. I haven\u2019t got their names right here because I was going off a call sheet, but I can dig them out if needed. But that was their response: \u201CThank you for the wage subsidy, it saved our business.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, the previous speaker said that there had been a lack of support for business. What an extraordinary thing to say. If I go to page 8 of the extra Supplementary Estimates, which we\u2019ve had this year because of the COVID crisis, I see that there is an allocation there of\u2014let me just find it exactly\u2014$15.2 billion\u2014$15.2 billion\u2014it\u2019s called the business support subsidy, and it is the wage subsidy\u2014the wage subsidy that has saved businesses. That is direct support for businesses to help them keep their valued employees on. So when you say that there is no support for businesses, that is the support for businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker spoke of the worry about the cash expenses that businesses have to carry at the moment\u2014the cash that they have to come up with in order to survive. He talked about the issues around rent and the like, and then he said, \u201CWell, where is support for this?\u201D Well, if we go to page 7 of the Supplementary Estimates document that we have here\u2014the additional Supplementary Estimates\u2014we see that there is funding right there for the Small Business Cashflow (Loan) Scheme. Sitting in there is $5.2 billion allocated in order to support small business. \u201CWhere is the Government and the business support?\u201D, the Opposition have asked. It is right here in this document\u2014right there, because this Government on this side understands the need to support business and it has acted to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, sure, along the way there will be some mistakes, perhaps some people who could have got the wage subsidy when they shouldn\u2019t have; perhaps some people who have taken out the loan when they shouldn\u2019t have. But, by and large, it has gone to the people who need it, when they need it, fast and early, so that businesses survive. That\u2019s what\u2019s sitting in this addition to the Supplementary Estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThen, in terms of actually spending seriously to make sure that things work, sitting here on page 5 of this addition to the Supplementary Estimates is an allocation of a further $495 million for the COVID-19 health response. That\u2019s the money that\u2019s setting up the campaigns around uniting against COVID-19. It\u2019s purchasing extra equipment. It\u2019s getting the contract tracing going. It\u2019s getting going on supporting quarantine. Money that is supporting the COVID response and, through that, supporting all of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe are highly desirable now. People want to come here. We are seeing more and more people coming back to New Zealand because we are safe\u2014because we are safe. Again, those borders are, by and large, holding up. Sure, there have been some hiccups along the way, and that\u2019s understandable. No one has tried to put in a quarantine like this elsewhere in the world\u2014it\u2019s us and Australia. We are working it up as we go along. Why? Because it has been such a sudden event, such a quick response has been needed. Yes, there will be things that go wrong along the way, but by and large we are getting that right. Do you know how we can tell that? There is still no community transmission in New Zealand. We have got it right\u2014we have got it right. That\u2019s why New Zealanders are coming home, because they are coming home to safety. That\u2019s the story that we can tell in the Supplementary Estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI wish to pick up on one further point from the Supplementary Estimates. The previous speaker was concerned about the amount of debt that New Zealand is getting into. But sitting here in the report from the Finance and Expenditure Committee, on the Supplementary Estimates\u2014and I take you to page 3 of that report\u2014is some discussion of the debt that\u2019s going on. It says, \u201CWith fiscal spending levels reaching historic highs, New Zealand\u2019s debt-to-GDP ratio is expected to climb to 50 percent.\u201D New Zealand\u2019s debt-to-GDP ratio is 19 percent, but it\u2019s going up. It does say that it represents a large increase in Government debt. But then it goes on to say\u2014and this is a report that the previous speaker signed off on, as well, because it came from the committee that he sits on, as well\u2014\u201CHowever, we note that the increase in the debt-to-GDP ratio is comparable to the increase that occurred between 2008 and 2013, after the global financial crisis. We have also previously heard from the Treasury that the Government\u2019s debt position will remain sustainable, even if the debt-to-GDP ratio were to reach 50 percent.\u201D\u2014in a report that the previous speaker signed off on, as well, sitting there; you can read it for yourselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve heard a lot of carping and criticism from the Opposition bench, but when you look at the numbers, we are getting it about right. We\u2019re doing well. This Government has worked hard and fast to get it right, to support business, to support individuals who have lost their jobs, to support our economy, and to make our border safe. It\u2019s working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002248ef2a7a2b7c4807acb09b857c4cf5b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248ef2a7a2b7c4807acb09b857c4cf5b3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I\u2019ll be speaking on this Appropriation (2019/20 Supplementary Estimates) Bill. It\u2019s just a small bill; a short bill that packs a fair punch, with billions and billions\u2014tens of billions of expenditure. So if you look at this bill, it\u2019s innocuous in many respects. Then you run down the line on page 30\u2014just quietly on page 30\u2014$12 billion on one line item: business support subsidy, $12 billion, not too bad, and then various other bits and pieces here that have been listed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe thing that, of course, New Zealanders are obviously asking as they see a lot of this expenditure going out\u2014some of it, of course, is absolutely appropriate and right, particularly when we run through the health expenditure. You would expect that we would be putting more into health and disability support services in the Lakes DHB and the Hutt Valley DHB and the Nelson Marlborough DHB\u2014everybody expects that. We\u2019ve been dealing with a global health crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut then there are other bits of money that they\u2019ve seen rolling out the door: whether it\u2019s all the money spent to kill the possums or various rail proposals from our friends over in New Zealand First. They\u2019ve sort of racked their brains and they think, \u201CDidn\u2019t they just spend a whole lot of money opening up that line to Wairoa? Isn\u2019t it true that most of the trees that they\u2019re hoping to get on the line to Wairoa, actually, are closer to Napier Port than Wairoa?\u201D So they have to sort of get in a truck and go back to Wairoa, and then get off the truck and get on the train, and then take the train to the port. As a result there have been a grand total of six trains so far in the six months. Then they see millions and billions of more money being spent on various lines up in Northland, and there isn\u2019t much prospect of any more trains going on those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo they ask the legitimate question: how are we going to pay for all this? The worry that many New Zealanders have is that this is a Government, with $20 billion in Grant Robertson\u2019s kitty, that will spend whatever it takes to try and keep their polling up till 19 September, then on 20 September the smiles will drop from their faces and New Zealanders will be presented with the bill, and the bill is higher taxes next year if they were lucky enough to win the election. So New Zealanders have got a stark choice: do they want those higher taxes or not? And they\u2019ll be asking themselves that over the next little while.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo while many of the things that are listed in the Supplementary Estimates make sense, the overall scope of spending is concerning. What is more concerning, of course, is the continual and constant gap between the announcements and the delivery. All New Zealanders this week have been reflecting on that\u2014they\u2019ve been reflecting on the Prime Minister\u2019s front-and-centre descriptions of how the Government has delivered on and done this and done that on border security, and then they\u2019ve seen the reality. Then they haven\u2019t seen the Prime Minister; what they\u2019ve seen is a reference to a systems failure, and various officials running around defending it, and Minsters not being seen anywhere. David Clark\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ab8997c2ae246b698b7aff9c86ac281\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s very interesting but it\u2019s not about the Estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cee3843c2614ed28c921577c4f0ce14\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is about\u2014Madam Speaker, with your indulgence, there is a very strong connection between these Estimates, which represent the money being spent and what we\u2019re getting for it, and the confidence that New Zealanders have, or the lack thereof, in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019re talking about how there\u2019s supposed to be a focus on COVID, but, if you looked at page 31, for example, you would see many millions being spent on establishing a single, national vocational education institution. Well, that\u2019s short for taking over the entire polytech and centralising it, turning the whole industry upside down, shaking it from its feet, and then expecting that you can go and spend $1.6 billion to get a whole lot of apprentices into the working environment, and those two things don\u2019t fit very well together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo my simple message is one of yes, in a time of crisis, yes we need to borrow, and yes Government can spend in order to help us through a crisis\u2014nobody debates that. The question is how much and how effective is that spending? And that is a much more debatable motion. What we\u2019ve seen in this Government has been a mixture of some effective spending but a whole lot that hasn\u2019t been effective. When we see the Budget proposals, including these Supplementary Estimates, what we\u2019ve seen is a fair amount of money devoted to dealing with COVID, but also a lot of money in areas that are not directly related to COVID but they are areas that the Government wants to do for their political reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s fine, but, at a time when we\u2019re taking on an enormous amount of debt, and the projections from the Treasury are that we\u2019ll be having a deficit of $28 billion this financial year and about the same next financial year, and then over the next four years we\u2019ll be adding an extra $140 billion of debt\u2014in that context, recognising that New Zealand is a small, isolated economy, prone to national disasters, and with also high private sector debt, there does come a point where it is risky for the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo our simple message is that, yes, we take on debt, but we\u2019re careful about it, we don\u2019t go crazy, and we don\u2019t take more than we need. And in a time of crisis, you\u2019ve got to be a little bit considerate about whether some things that might be nice to have in the boom times are still required in the difficult times. We haven\u2019t seen any of those hard decisions made in these Supplementary Estimates, in my opinion. On that basis, we are yet to be convinced of the merits of this bill. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022258cdc5f3ee2420bbc7130805f6cb4a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022258cdc5f3ee2420bbc7130805f6cb4a3\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E This will be a focused, pithy, and concise speech. But I just want to contrast what our side of the House is doing through this modest\u2014in size\u2014piece of legislation with what the shadow spokesman for finance is saying. So the shadow spokesman for finance is saying that we were wrong to buttress the economy; we were wrong to look after the hundreds of thousands of Kiwis who, as a consequence of COVID, were dislocated from the workforce; we were wrong to underwrite our national airline. So I presume what he is saying is that this level of injection, this $40 billion, is actually not what the economy needs. That is not what Kiwis believe. The reason that this figure is so large, you need look no further than the 11\u2014roughly speaking\u2014billion dollars in protecting jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, this side of the House knows, as we go forward, jobs will organically come from the economy as it regains strength, and the strength that it regains will be reflective of the navigational skills shown by Grant Robertson and his fellow Ministers. The other thing we need to bear in mind\u2014and I\u2019m not going to speak for very long, because Kiwis actually want to see the money flowing. Kiwis actually want to see an injection and interventions in the economy. But I\u2019m going to round up my speech by talking about what is alluded to in this legislation, which is infrastructure spending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EInfrastructure spending is going to be incredibly important. It is covered off in some of these capital allocations because, as we\u2019ve seen the drying up of virtually $17 billion of foreign exchange earnings through tourism, our Government is going to endeavour to plug that gap by futureproofing our provincial and our metropolitan economies with pots of infrastructure expenditure. That is what Kiwis expect us to do. They don\u2019t expect us to be miserly, they don\u2019t expect us to lose our boldness or our courage, and for those reasons our party thoroughly endorses both the strategy and the allocations that Grant Robertson, our Minister of Finance, has already announced and which this House, as it wends its way through the legislative process, will enjoy the support of New Zealand First. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00228897948e0990444ba002b1c1502e1528\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228897948e0990444ba002b1c1502e1528\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Looking through the Estimates it\u2019s really clear that the term COVID-19 comes through loud and clear. That\u2019s because this country is facing an economic catastrophe. So we see large amounts of money going into trying to deal with the COVID-19 situation; the risks around, obviously, health; the risks around the border\u2014the lack of quarantining that we\u2019ve seen; and we also see a large amount of money going into trying to deal with the economic costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe Estimates themselves seem to have massive amounts of money here for the business support subsidy, leave support scheme, essential workers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233b4eb63b4e64787a46204869fbad277\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: What page is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209a31f2eb8894eb1a14606e66bced7b3\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Page 31\u2014to the Minister who clearly hasn\u2019t found it before himself. But thankfully, I have read it. And what we\u2019re seeing here is a tremendous amount of money going into it. Of course it has to go into it, because we have\u2014in our little country of a mere 5 million people\u2014a situation where a lot of people right now are losing their jobs, and they\u2019re losing their jobs through absolutely no fault of their own. Small businesses are closing their doors. Many of us around our electorates will have seen huge numbers of businesses having closed their doors. Just go around the electorates, it\u2019s really clear. In some streets, half the businesses have already shut, and others are looking in the future to have to shut. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThere has been a wage subsidy scheme, and that is a good thing, but it is wrong to say that that has gone to help businesses. That has actually gone to help staff, the workers, to be able to still have an income coming in. We, on this side of the House, support the fact that staff have been able to have their wages contributed to, that something has been able to get paid\u2014about 80 percent of those wages\u2014we think that\u2019s a good thing. But we also know that the businesses that we are going to want as a country to be there to keep people employed, that they have essentially had next to nothing. They have not had help with their rent. In fact, landlords have been told that they have to help out their tenants with their rent. The landlords have not had the help. We have businesses where, if they have franchises, they often have franchise costs that they have to be able to pay. Some of them have had to shut. We\u2019ve seen some of our well-known franchises have to shut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen the hospitality industry utterly devastated\u2014and I will not use the term decimated, because that means that they would\u2019ve lost a tenth of them\u2014they\u2019ve been devastated. We\u2019ve seen the tourist industry devastated. What we would like to see, on this side of the House, is an economic plan to help businesses come back from the dead. That\u2019s what we need to do, and the best way of doing that is to implement it before they\u2019re fully dead, and actually do it while there\u2019s still some life in those businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI fear there\u2019s not enough in these Estimates to genuinely and sincerely help businesses to stay afloat. What we\u2019re seeing around the country is councils\u2014local councils are saying they want to get involved, really spend big on infrastructure to help their economies. But, of course, they\u2019re also putting up rates as well; rates for businesses who cannot afford it; rates for landlords who cannot afford it; rates for householders who cannot afford it. We\u2019re seeing the Government not fast track the projects that they said they were going to fast track, in fact, not even announce all the projects that they wanted to fast track. We\u2019ve been told since April that everything was ready to go\u2014\u201CWe just need to be able to get the construction industry back again, able to work\u201D\u2014and it was all going to happen really quickly, lots of infrastructure being built around the country. What we\u2019ve seen is not nearly as much infrastructure as we would have expected. What there is being built is often through the councils, rather than through the Government and the Government funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also seen tremendous loss in the education sector, particularly around international students, and in the tertiary sector generally. This is not something that\u2019s going to be easily overcome. Yes, once borders are able to be opened, and, yes, once we can have any confidence in our quarantine system\u2014which I say has been dealt some pretty mortal blows. Yes, we might be able to get things going there again but by that stage we will be back competing with Australia and other providers of educational services to international students and we may well find that we have lost opportunities that the educational institutions have spent years trying to get in place\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa156de9550749b6a8f3d8800fa97d44\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just remind the member to deal with the bill in front of her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204562bcd81ed467a9dce72b2a748872c\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and years trying to build that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo when we look at the Auckland City Rail Link, for instance, in here, we see there\u2019s\u2014what?\u2014it\u2019s $193 million coming back into it. That\u2019s because\u2014why is that? Is that because it\u2019s coming back in because things aren\u2019t being spent? What\u2019s happened to all of the cost that you might expect in here for some of the other rail work that we were told was happening?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s have a look at the tertiary tuition and training on page 33 of this bill. Let\u2019s have a look at that. We\u2019ve gone from $16.8 billion coming in to\u2014my word, a tremendous amount going out: well, actually, almost nine times that going out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe have massive losses coming as a country. Just after the Budget was being read, Grant Robertson stood up in the House and told us that we would have to have some tweaking because of the COVID-19\u2014tweaking of the Budget and tweaking of the Government\u2019s finances. This is not tweaking; this is quite serious. I am concerned that some of the costs in here and this money being spent are not necessarily all going to be going into building our economy, building our preparedness for round two of COVID-19 or possibly even round three of COVID-19. I\u2019m not sure that it\u2019s going to be appropriately spent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe know that this Government has shown a lack of willingness to judge itself by its results but a tremendous wish to be able to judge itself by how much taxpayer money it spends. Taxpayers would expect that when we look at some of these costs in here, whether it\u2019s the Primary Growth Partnership, the New Zealand agricultural greenhouse gas research, that that will be money well spent. We certainly hope so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe look at the earthquake-prone heritage buildings. It\u2019s a reduction of the authority provided by clause 7 of the appropriation. I\u2019m not sure why that\u2019s reduced. Certainly, all around New Zealand and provincial New Zealand there are buildings that are vacant and they\u2019re vacant because they are considered to be earthquake-prone. The problem with that is that they\u2019ve been standing for well over 100 years. They\u2019re not being slept in. They could actually be opened, I would have thought, during the daytime for people to run business from or even the odd time that they could be used for some event. What worries me tremendously in provincial New Zealand is that we have these heritage buildings being left to rot because nobody can afford to put them into the earthquake safeness that we now require for buildings, for heritage buildings. And here we have money that seems to be being lost to that account. So I\u2019m not quite sure why that is and I\u2019m sure that the Government would like to explain that to the people of Whanganui, of Napier, of Hastings, of all around New Zealand, where right now they need money into their economies and this Government seems more intent on taking it off them rather than giving it to them and building their economy. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u00228b6eee376e1f463f8b63ddafb32ecc6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b6eee376e1f463f8b63ddafb32ecc6f\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to rise on the debate on the Appropriation (2019/20 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and the associated imprest supply bill, and I have to say there is a saying about when you\u2019re damned with faint praise. It was interesting to me that the worst criticism that the Hon Judith Collins could find on the associated Supplementary Estimates was to do with heritage buildings\u2014the single greatest economic crisis that this country\u2019s faced since the Great Depression, and the worst criticism that the Hon Judith Collins could find to direct at the Government related to our spending on heritage buildings. What that tells me is we\u2019ve probably got it about right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe thing that she was criticising us for was not spending enough money. I know that COVID-19 has sort of upended the world, but it does say something about where this debate has gotten to. In the spirit of this being a proper debate, I just want to pick up on some of the points that previous speakers\u2014including Andrew Bayly, who kicked off for the blue team on this, followed by the Hon Paul Goldsmith\u2014made. They talked about a number of things, which were that we weren\u2019t spending enough money and we were spending too much money and we were spending it too slowly but also we were spending it too quickly. So I couldn\u2019t quite get a read on exactly what it is that the National Party thinks, because it clearly thinks quite a lot of different things about this particular situation that we\u2019re in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly talked about how the amounts that are being appropriated are staggeringly large, and he is absolutely correct. He was voicing some concern that, obviously, all this is going to have to get paid back some day, and he\u2019s absolutely correct\u2014it is. At the same time\u2014and this point was actually reiterated by the Hon Paul Goldsmith in question time the other day, where his lead line of questioning the Minister of Finance at that time gave the presumption that National could spend money faster than the Labour Party; the whole point of that line of questioning was that National can be more profligate and push money out the door even faster than the Labour Party\u2014that\u2019s a real challenge. It\u2019s a real challenge, and I\u2019ll tell you why. It\u2019s because this Government has put over $11 billion in the wage subsidy in less than three months. We got money out the door to where it was needed in a staggeringly short period of time to businesses that needed it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThis is one of the other areas where the National Party were being completely inconsistent about this. They were saying, \u201COh, you\u2019re borrowing too much money and you\u2019re spending too much money and it\u2019s all going to have to get paid back.\u201D, and, at the same time, saying, \u201CWe would have spent all of that money on the wage supply and then we would have doubled down by paying everybody\u2019s rent for them at the same time.\u201D Well, where was that going to come from? Plus, they were intending to have a GST refund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo they\u2019re going to give away GST, they\u2019re going to pay for everybody\u2019s rent, and they\u2019re going to pay for everybody\u2019s salaries, and they\u2019re going to do that faster than they think that this Government has been able to get money to where it\u2019s needed\u2014that they can do that faster\u2014and, at the same time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2790c5762af4186b31508e9b72489f1\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Borrow less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224043f618ece4436f881af6c4d83303e7\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they say that they\u2019re going to borrow less money and pay it back faster. It is an extraordinary series of claims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENow, I remember. Having been on the Opposition benches, I know what it\u2019s like when you\u2019re in Opposition. You know, there is this temptation to say what you need to say in order to kind of please the folks out there. But for a party that has been a party of Government for as long as it has been, you would think that the moment those members were in Opposition, they would be able to maintain some coherent thinking about something as basic as the maths of finance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo I have been listening to this debate and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022685baa7da9a54dd282eb4460df35c574\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I\u2019ve been listening to the member and I\u2019d like him to address the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247749edada8a45e289feec283e320358\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I mean, it is a debate on the bill, but I do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022797c8e9b9870413e9958431cefd4fd25\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a debate on a bill that\u2019s on the Table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b286f3e831f34cd096c19c4b7827def3\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014take your point, Madam Speaker. So the amounts that are contained in this bill, as Andrew Bayly said, are very large. But there is a reason for that, and that is because at a time like this it is imperative that the Government injects enormous amounts of capital into the economy as fast as possible to keep it afloat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe last time that we had a significant economic downturn, which was during the global financial crisis and the Christchurch earthquake, the Government actually borrowed comparable sums of money within the context of the time in order to get us through that period of time, but then put a lid on spending, and it\u2019s been demonstrated afterwards that the lid that we had on spending under the National Government of the time actually prolonged the economic downturn. So it is actually entirely appropriate that the amounts that are being appropriated at the moment and being pushed into the economy at the moment are actually exactly what the Opposition is calling for: the right level of stimulus to keep the economy afloat and to keep as many people in their jobs as possible; where someone isn\u2019t able to stay in their job, to give them retraining and get them back into work in a new job as fast as possible; if they are stuck in a situation where they\u2019re unemployed for a period of time, to make sure that they have enough money coming in to put a roof over their head; and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EHonestly, you know, I\u2019ve been listening to the debate on this bill and I cannot for the life of me work out where the criticism actually is, because there is really only one course of action available to us at this particular time, and we do have the lessons of history to guide us. So I find absolutely nothing to fault in this bill and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u00226e6ad687a2b442518c9ac90431e03fd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e6ad687a2b442518c9ac90431e03fd1\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ve already attended one financially distressing meeting tonight and I\u2019m attending another one now, and it\u2019s somewhat ironic, I think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThis is the second time or maybe the third time that I\u2019ve followed James Shaw, and I always quite enjoy him. He comes up with something else and in this speech it was the maths of finance, which I find intriguing, and his maths of finance particularly intriguing. He went on to say, though\u2014and I think that this is absolutely relevant to the Supplementary Estimates bill\u2014that the National Party are calling for more expenditure, and he called it profligate expenditure. I\u2019ve got to say, we\u2019re not calling for more expenditure. I\u2019ve not heard us in any stage call for more expenditure. We\u2019re calling for better direction of expenditure. That\u2019s absolutely the key to where this whole discussion needs to go. I think the appropriateness of the expenditure that is contained in the Supplementary Estimates is absolutely the key to the issue we should be talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI just want to go on to an issue that the Hon Shane Jones raised as well. He said Kiwis want to see the money flowing; they want to see Governments bolstering the economy with cash. That\u2019s fine, but the cash has got to be directed in the right direction. I just want to touch on one issue, particularly, and I know that\u2019s it been touched on tonight already, and that\u2019s some of the expenditure around railway. The interesting thing, when you put money into a railway line like the Wairoa to Napier railway line and then you encourage people to plant trees that will never be harvested, it\u2019s very difficult to see what the use of the railway line is actually going to be, because a lot of those trees that have been planted in that area may well never be harvested. So in fact, they\u2019ll never need the railway line to go to the port. So things like that are other sorts of things that I think the National Party in Opposition are particularly critical of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI also have an interesting electorate, and some of the challenges that we face when we look at biosecurity, at border security, and what they might mean for further expenditure that this Government will need to get to\u2014when you see things like\u2014and I pick on two particular areas, the ski fields, which had we been able to secure our borders, had we been able to maintain our reputation around those borders, those ski fields may well have been able to host overseas visitors during the ski season that\u2019s about to follow. My point is, of course, that if they don\u2019t, in fact, have that opportunity, they are going to be much worse off and, consequently, the Government\u2019s highly likely to have to produce a supplementary Supplementary Order Paper to this bill and put more money into the business than they otherwise might have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to pick on one other issue as well that I think is particularly relevant, and it\u2019s very relevant today because we\u2019ve just put the racing bill through its second reading. I think the issue there is that, of course, we\u2019ve got the national yearling sales coming up for both harness and thoroughbreds in January. And if, in fact, these border lapses don\u2019t enable foreign buyers to come to New Zealand to look at those horses, those yearling sales will collapse. That\u2019s another massive blow to an industry that\u2019s already struggling significantly. So my point is that if we don\u2019t keep our borders secure, if we don\u2019t get keep our biosecurity up to speed, which is another very important issue and obviously an issue that\u2019s included in this Supplementary Order Paper tonight, then we\u2019re going to suffer further challenges and the Government is going to suffer further challenges in where it allocates its money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe other issue I wanted to talk about with respect to this was, in fact, the debt levels. When you look through these Supplementary Estimates\u2014and I\u2019m not used to looking at the second round of noughts, if you know what I mean. So you\u2019ve got a $12 billion figure in there, which you think\u2019s $12 million till you read it again. And you think it\u2019s $120 million. And you read it again and think, \u201COh, it\u2019s $12 billion.\u201D That\u2019s one of the things that we\u2019re just not used to in this country\u2014the magnitude of the money that\u2019s included in these Estimates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe problem will be for those future generations that\u2019ve got to repay them. It\u2019s all very well to say, \u201CWell, you\u2019re going to have to repay the debt.\u201D Well, my generation won\u2019t have to repay this debt. It\u2019s my generation that\u2019s been saved by some of the activities that have caused this debt, but my generation won\u2019t be repaying it. I think that\u2019s one of the saddest things about where we\u2019ve got to with this Budget and with these Estimates\u2014that a lot of the money contained in here will be repaid by future generations, not by the generations that we\u2019ve spent the money to protect. I realise that\u2019s a difficult conundrum for a Government to deal with, but, none the less, it\u2019s very real and I think it\u2019s absolutely critical to this discussion because somewhere along the line, we are going to have to generate the activity that will repay that debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to turn for a minute to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280d5ae9adbbe4793b571b703fc877bb7\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Infrastructure\u2014infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffbc53c3dc7b4571bcc4aa8e3e4f3c2a\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve just turned to the primary sector for a minute, Minister Jones, because, for a change, in New Zealand\u2014not a change, because it happened in 2008-09 as well, but, for a change, in New Zealand the primary sector is going to drive the recovery of New Zealand again, and I think it\u2019s our vibrant rural economy that\u2019s coming to the rescue. If we, in fact, do away by inadvertent or poor investment in the regional economies that drive our primary sector, then we\u2019re going to run the risk of in the future not having such a strong primary sector. If we don\u2019t have a strong primary sector, we will never pay these debts off in the future. Whether we like it or not\u2014and I\u2019ve heard Governments in the past talking about a sunset industry. Well, the sunset industry is now our sunrise, and it, in fact, is driving where we want to get to with respect to repaying some of the debts that are included in this massive amount of expenditure. Sure, I accept that in some ways that expenditure was required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to very briefly talk about the winter energy payment, which was doubled this year, and certainly in some parts of New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7db1c528dce4f7980db9ab3808b76ae\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: Did you get it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5778ac7c731468e84a7511368de5b47\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: I missed out, Hud, I missed out. In some parts of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e931958b3fc348ab8b60f3ceed5b8329\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You gave it back, didn\u2019t you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f775090356243fa8aba8a66346268ce\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014New Zealand\u2014ha, ha! I made a bad blue, actually. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a28e4428bb324cc59b6a40acf9be4312\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Too hot where he lives\u2014doesn\u2019t need it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228210edfa6a584eba9f8d5acf96b803f0\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t need that in the Rangit\u012Bkei, but in some parts of New Zealand, it\u2019s extremely necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EOne of the challenges that we face, of course, with all these sorts of things is who does and should get it and who should and shouldn\u2019t get it. One of the strong arguments about the winter energy payment was that people should have had to apply for it, not to default from it. I think that\u2019s still a very relevant argument to some of these things that we do to assist people. Obviously, the wage subsidy was one of those places where you could apply for or default from, but you had to apply to get it. I think it\u2019s logical that when Governments are handing out money of the magnitude that we\u2019re handing it out right now, you should actually have to apply to get money and not just automatically get it and then have to default from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EOne of the positives about the activities of this Government has been the speed with which they\u2019ve acted. Now, history will tell us whether that was a sensible decision or not, and some of the figures in this, our Supplementary Estimates bill tonight, will in due course maybe come back to haunt us, because of the way we\u2019ve managed that. But that\u2019s an issue that the Government will have to face at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI think this discussion is all about who\u2019s got the best priority, and I think James Shaw missed the beat completely when he accused the National Party of splashing cash all over the place. We haven\u2019t said we\u2019ll splash cash anywhere other than in the places that it\u2019s logical to splash it, and I think that our policy would be much more relevant and much more stable than the current Government\u2019s policy is, which, really, some of the subsidy and some of the expenditure in this bill has not been well thought through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc844b11637044049893d8b946af485c\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Provincial Growth Fund\u2014Provincial Growth Fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6bd3515d8ad434c87f0e40e8f8ca1a8\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: So that\u2019s probably\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea76ec2e60c94cba99068591b16b44c5\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Politics of envy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022694e449ff3cb42d59d9156e94dbfbd52\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014enough for me, otherwise, I shall have to answer the member on the other side of the House, which I don\u2019t want to have to do, because I could have spent a lot of time accusing him of ruining the country with trees, and you can\u2019t eat them, of course. That\u2019s the other thing. He hasn\u2019t realised you can\u2019t eat trees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e1445b638dd4f92ad86a7002c9511ff\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Except for fruit trees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282f42f8d35734f829708d9382ac242ab\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the old\u2014ha, ha\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e18d6975188247b4b7479cc8d2b27915\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t eat trees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ddc0bdf26c431f9ce5bff09e645f2e\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: You cannot eat trees, and that\u2019s a challenge we\u2019re going to face in the future. That\u2019s one of the challenges that we face as we recover from these issues that I\u2019ve mentioned, in this bill. We have got to generate income to pay the bill. Whether it\u2019s expenditure on infrastructure, whether it\u2019s expenditure on whatever, we have to generate income to pay the bill. So that would be me for the night. I\u2019ve done enough, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00221075d5efe0fe491cbe079d0be05904dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221075d5efe0fe491cbe079d0be05904dc\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Willow-Jean Prime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022a772cd4f35714614a71fb23d81b6341b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a772cd4f35714614a71fb23d81b6341b\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The previous speaker just said that tonight\u2019s debate has been characterised by who has the best ideas and priorities, and I believe we do. So with that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022 data-id=\u0022be0fa3b5811d408da765c9b650cbb799\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be0fa3b5811d408da765c9b650cbb799\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E That was a fine contribution, short but sweet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022420f23d4e0fc47e8a93a52776eed3baf\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That won\u2019t win a seat in Northland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4726a1680474e3991cabee7bf358ba8\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, you need a bit better in Northland for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EI want to carry on on what my learned colleague and friend Mr Ian McKelvie has told me, because, while he\u2019s had a lot of seriously bad financial news this evening as I understand it, this bill really is seriously bad in terms of financial news for New Zealand. It\u2019s not, as the Government would say, that we\u2019re all negative. It\u2019s just that we are borrowing so much money\u2014$140 billion\u2014we\u2019re running deficits for the next four years, and because we are spending money as quickly as we can, it generally lacks the scrutiny and probity that one would normally have around such large-scale expenditure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll give you an example, Madam Speaker, I\u2019ll give the House an example. I read an article earlier in the week that said the Government has spent $22 million on housing homeless people during level 4 lockdown\u2014that is 1,200 homeless people according to the article. That works out at $600, or nearly $650, a night in motels for homeless people. There may be a very good reason for that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b8d0feeb3ea4c5eb64f3622b64dcac3\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Bad maths.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4ec5b36c5b44e2bb7219fc4881fb9b6\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but I know\u2014no, the maths is fine, Mr Jones. The maths is fine; I\u2019ve checked it several times. My point is, when you look at the number that\u2019s been spent and the number of nights and the number of people, it is over $600 a night. Now, my point in illustrating that is to not have a go at homeless people, but to say this is exactly what happens when you spend money of scale and as quickly as you do. We\u2019ll get to the bottom of why it cost that much per person, but when you are spending $140 billion at pace, then the quality of that spend often gets compromised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll remind members of this House that it\u2019s not the Government\u2019s money; it\u2019s our money. Every time this House or this Government borrows money, they\u2019re borrowing it against us\u2014against my household, against my children, and against my grandchildren. When you do that at pace, and you are somewhat reckless in areas, then, ultimately, you are wasteful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EBecause the Hon Shane Jones is in the House, and he commented on infrastructure. Money is being borrowed for infrastructure, but, yet, as I can see it, Mr Jones, very little has been announced or is shovel-ready or is about to happen. While we jest about the Napier to Wairoa line\u2014which I was on the train when it was opened with you. Six million dollars, six trains\u2014I only thought it was two trains, but apparently it\u2019s six trains. If you do things of scale, at pace, and without the proper business analysis\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221df81c91688042a689e952c5021c85d4\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: COVID-related slow-down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286e251166c6e4bc79bbf2514d5ec92ac\u0022\u003ELAWRENCE YULE\u003C/span\u003E: COVID-related slow-down. Mr Jones, you know that they haven\u2019t even got a marshalling yard in Wairoa to put the logs on. That is nothing to do with COVID, that is because the Government, as it\u2019s typical of doing, announces something and said, \u201CThis is wonderful.\u201D, but cannot deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EIf you come down to this bill, this bill is very important because what it talks about is, particularly, the COVID-related changes that are being brought about in this Supplementary Estimates. I come back to the bill, because, one, it\u2019s important that I do so as part of this, but also because we are spending a fortune. This side of the House is not against spending money, as laid out in the Supplementary Order Paper: business support, COVID subsidy. I\u2019ve been around business in my electorate. They\u2019re grateful for the wage subsidy, they\u2019re grateful for the extension, some employees are grateful for the $490 a week if they lose their jobs. That\u2019s not the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220c51564f-6c6e-45cc-adab-f15b6c831fce\u0022\u003EThe question for me is in the bigger spend, which relates to infrastructure and urgent projects, and the scrutiny of that. I used the example of the homeless people as a mere example of the type of spend. If we\u2019re not careful, this Government will be wasteful with that money, and it has to be paid back. Myself, my children, and my grandchildren will pay for it, and we believe it\u2019s inefficient. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022923a3ac510c6427891a1654aeac451b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022923a3ac510c6427891a1654aeac451b3\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s quite all right. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Very simply, that member who has just resumed his seat, Lawrence Yule, I refute that this Government is wasteful. I refute that this Government is reckless. We are in unprecedented times\u2014post - COVID-19 recovery. We\u2019re rebuilding, and I therefore commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022348937fe9d5a4e8db5d839544cab8872\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022348937fe9d5a4e8db5d839544cab8872\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E As we discuss this Appropriation (2019/20 Supplementary Estimates) Bill, what really surprises me is the contributions that we\u2019ve had, particularly from Government members who almost seem to trivialise this legislation and the amount of money. There was a contribution from Dr Deborah Russell, which I thought was worthwhile, where she said, \u201CWe\u2019ve never seen spending like that\u201D. I accept that and I go back to the Budget presented by the Hon Grant Robertson back in May. He talked about the fact that they were suddenly appropriating $50 billion, of which at least $20 billion would have no detail at all, and here we are now tidying up that Budget and the Supplementary Estimates with a bill that\u2019s particularly light on detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EAs I look for some of the information, I\u2019ve found the best and the most appropriate place to go is the Budget document, to which not one speaker has referred tonight. I can go through and list page after page of huge expenditure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022319e02b17f7f4c74b5312f7e55c2981c\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Relevance\u2014relevance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0f9d8676e0849dfa6ce0e1c947728e5\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Shane Jones says to talk relevance. I ask him then, when we get into the committee stage, to take the chair and explain to us COVID-19 assistance for primary industries\u2014$10.245 billion. Mr Jones has no idea what it\u2019s for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a78423111e241e39add36deb335024f\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Extension services\u2014extension services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280993f4f14aa4d75a391ee6a66788ccd\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s got nothing to do with extension services, because, if he bothered to look at the paperwork, it\u2019s actually $10 million that has been spent supporting the pork industry. The detail is here in the information of the Supplementary Estimates, and that\u2019s what disappoints me with the discussion tonight. We normally have a Budget process where a Budget\u2019s presented and, at the end of that Budget process, there\u2019s inevitably a supplementary bill that tidies up the variations that occur, and that\u2019s appropriate for all Governments. But what we\u2019ve got here, and what we\u2019re discussing tonight, is supplementaries to the supplementaries. The Government has had to cope with an extraordinary situation with COVID, and I fully accept that, but the amounts of money we\u2019re talking about here are mind-boggling, and you\u2019ve just had the interjection from the Hon Shane Jones, where he has no idea whatsoever why we\u2019re appropriating $10.245 billion to the Ministry for Primary Industries. Nothing to do with extension services; it\u2019s to do with supporting the pork industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s only one of the appropriations I can find. Go to Corrections\u2014prisoner-based custodial services, an extra $31.046 million appropriated for custodial services. Let a Government Minister stand and tell us what that money\u2019s been appropriated for. Go through to appropriations for education, and again there\u2019s millions of dollars being appropriated here; some of it no doubt for the modems that were delivered to private schools right around the country after we\u2019d moved to lockdown level 1 that were not needed by the schools at all, and many of the schools appropriately sent it back to the Government. That\u2019s the sort of mismanagement I\u2019m talking about with this particular legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EGo through to Vote Health\u2014millions of dollars being appropriated to all of the district health boards to cope with COVID-19; reasonably explicable, I would think. But go through and explain to me\u2014and I\u2019m going to take this up with the Minister in the chair\u2014the variations, where Canterbury District Health Board gets $3.793 million additional money and Auckland, for example, doesn\u2019t seem to get anything. There is just a lack of exposure to the sort of expenditure we\u2019re discussing tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori development\u2014$20 million for Wh\u0101nau Ora to purchase achievement outcomes from non-Government commissioning agencies. What does that mean, Michael Wood? He\u2019s been prepared to interject right throughout my speech, but when I ask him a question, he can\u2019t answer, because he\u2019s never bothered to pick up this piece of information before the House today and discuss it. Vote Prime Minister and Cabinet\u2014$11.619 million for the management of emergencies. Well, we\u2019ve got an emergency\u2014it\u2019s called the border. It\u2019s failing us every day, whereby people are coming finally into managed quarantine, not voluntary quarantine, coming into managed quarantine, meant to be tested day 3, day 12. We\u2019ve got no idea how many have been tested. We know a lot are out there without tests at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c13f638c2c8d4a03aa4b23c6379d8e25\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: What about Mr Bishop monstering the bureaucracy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8b6b241b3e94021baa9c173762ee390\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: What about Mr\u2014we\u2019ve had the best interjection earlier when he claimed that the reason the Wairoa rail line\u2019s had only six trains is because it\u2019s got COVID. Trains have got COVID! That\u2019ll make news to the World Health Organization! The Hon Shane Jones, it\u2019s a serious problem if that\u2019s happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI could go on pulling this particular document to bits, and I certainly intend to do so when we move to the committee stage of this legislation. But, in listening to the debates tonight, the Opposition members have seriously asked questions and questioned the relevance and the wisdom of the expenditure. We accept there has to be significant increase in expenditure. We accept that not all the details will be known\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022450ba46ba2844c358a65c05874622c66\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261102e9f542f45e38f991c61663c5a29\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Shane Jones interjects again; he\u2019s got no idea how much. It\u2019s $50 billion, of which $20 billion, when the Budget was read, was announced as no detail yet\u2014\u201CWe\u2019ll let you know as we get close to 19 September.\u201D And that\u2019s what a lot of this money is for. It\u2019s about attempting to spend and show a Government of competency, and what we\u2019ve seen over the last week is they\u2019ve got a hell of a job ahead of them if they\u2019re now going to show any competency at all, whereby we declared internationally, and received praise internationally, that we were free of COVID-19, only a couple of days later to have a few cases, and now I think it\u2019s up to nine or 11 at the day\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022177708201e524d92b5a74173600f64a8\u0022\u003EBrett Hudson\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re the laughing stock now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297cabac0cab0439ebc4b2f459424a157\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re the laughing stock; Brett Hudson\u2019s absolutely right. We\u2019re the laughing stock of the world, and this particular legislation, and the way it\u2019s been treated by this House tonight, is another reason why that Government continues to be a laughing stock, not only internationally but certainly by the voters here in New Zealand, and they\u2019ll bring that to the Government\u2019s attention come 19 September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022 data-id=\u00222a7f23fcb3154c2b98db49d9710bdca5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a7f23fcb3154c2b98db49d9710bdca5\u0022\u003EBRETT HUDSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019d first like to thank members opposite enormously, not for the bill\u2014the bill is in need of much attention\u2014but for their absolute kindness\u2014[Interruption]\u2014because they\u2019ve given me an opportunity to speak. And thank you, Mr whip, I\u2019ll stop there and I\u2019ll get to the bill instead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to start\u2014it\u2019s been a point made by a number of members on this side. The part of the problem, as we go through this and the supplementaries of the Supplementary Estimates, is that so much of the spending is either poorly defined or, as we have seen, poorly delivered. The most obvious one to deal with is non-departmental other expenses \u201CBusiness Support Subsidy Covid-19\u201D: $15.2 billion\u2014what New Zealanders would have said pre-COVID was an eye-wateringly large number, but, when the Government is talking about borrowing an extra $140 billion, that puts that into some level of stark relief at least. But it draws our attention to what was it to be spent on, what was it spent on, and is there any left for it to be spent in perhaps some areas that have been overlooked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EThe most obvious one, of course, which we supported and don\u2019t resile from is the wage subsidy, but let\u2019s not mischaracterise what the wage subsidy actually is. It is not, strictly speaking, a business support. It is, first and foremost, an indirect means to channel wage payments to workers affected by the lockdown that the Government imposed. So while they like to herald it as supporting businesses, that\u2019s not what that share of the $15 billion does. It merely gives them an indirect way to pay some wages for staff members who have been impacted, because they either couldn\u2019t work or have reduced hours, and were suffering under those lockdown conditions. Now, we supported that; we still do. It was absolutely important, and remains important, that businesses that were suffering significant revenue loss under the COVID conditions were assisted to keep their employees, because the alternative was equally stark, and that was, simply, that those employees would have had to have been let go. The State and taxpayer would still have had to pick up a chunk of money, because, of course, they would have gone straight on to the jobseeker benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003ESo the idea that we could move relatively quickly from the health crisis into an economic crisis, but to seek a pathway to recovery that this side has got far better credentials to deal with than that side, meant that it was a very good idea indeed to help to ensure that those employees would be able to be retained, such that a business would be able to switch from pure survival to at least the beginning of a recovery quite quickly. So we supported the Government when they announced that. It has turned into a large amount of money\u2014most of, but not all of, that $15 billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EBut something that is very relevant and is certainly not covered in the detail\u2014there is no detail\u2014here in this bill is what appears to be an ideological blind spot for the Government in deciding what to do with the $15 billion. That is, while they like to talk about the wage subsidy as a business support\u2014and I\u2019ve already said it\u2019s not actually that\u2014they have been unable to find themselves capable of actually providing direct financial support to those businesses. They\u2019ve got the money, but they find themselves unable to provide that direct financial support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EIn the very first instances, businesses were calling for assistance in meeting those bills. I\u2019m talking about expenditure of the money that we\u2019re agreeing, post fact, that the Government could spend. A criticism has been that they actually didn\u2019t know what to spend it on, and what they have spent it on hasn\u2019t been as well targeted as it could have been. One of the areas they could have and should have been targeting were those other costs that businesses sustain outside of their wage bill. Early parts of the calls were for assistance with their leases\u2014the fact that they were still having to pay a portion of rent, and, in too many cases, 100 percent of the rent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EI even heard one, actually\u2014we had one specific example\u2014where a constituent in \u014Ch\u0101riu came to me. He owns a building in Hawke\u2019s Bay. It sits on land that is, effectively, owned by the Government and administered by Land Information New Zealand (LINZ). LINZ were silent on whether they would give him any rent relief on that land. The Government was calling for landlords to do the right thing and to treat businesses fairly, and he couldn\u2019t get an answer out of LINZ that they were prepared\u2014the Government was actually prepared\u2014to step up and play a similar line with him. That was a real world example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003ESo there was a lot of call for businesses to get support in a very direct financial way for those expenses that they still faced outside of the wage bill. In effect, it fell on deaf ears, because, although the Government had the $15 billion\u2014and more in other areas of this bill\u2014they simply couldn\u2019t bring themselves to give direct cash support to businesses. That speaks a lot for the ideology of the other side, which, quite frankly, just thinks that anyone making a profit is taking a profit at the expense of someone else\u2014either their workers, through wages, or from their customers. We on the other side, this side, know very differently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EBut that blind spot has actually threatened a lot of the jobs that the Government has spent over $10 billion seeking, they say, to save\u2014it\u2019s actually threatened so many of them. The wage subsidy is going to expire, and, without that direct assistance that they had the money to give to businesses, far too many jobs will still disappear because they weren\u2019t prepared to use some of this money to ensure the business survived and not just that the wages\u2014or at least a subsidised amount of the wage bill\u2014was paid for. That is a huge opportunity lost, and tens of thousands of workers are going to discover that in coming weeks. I\u2019m not sure they\u2019ll be too grateful once they get to that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EWhat did they do? Well, we saw the Government promising to underwrite loans and being prepared to do that through the allocation of finance or money. But what happened? Well, they were going to take 80 percent of the risk and banks would take 20 percent of the risk, and the banks responded and said it\u2019s not good enough; it still doesn\u2019t meet the criteria for us to make loans under these uncertain economic conditions. So what happens? About $80 million\u2014about $80 million\u2014is all they got\u2014$80 million. Actually, banks lent a lot more, we found out. The Bankers\u2019 Association gave us a bit of a presentation last week. The banks actually lent billions during the period, but only $80 million through that business finance guarantee scheme. It was a flawed scheme, cobbled together because we have a Government that just was unwilling to take much of the money that it had allocated itself\u2014and which Parliament appropriated, which Parliament agreed to, but which it was just absolutely resistant to using to provide some direct financial assistance to businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EWhat did they do? Oh, we\u2019ll give you some consulting services, because the thing that every businesses needed in this COVID state was for some bureaucrat or consultant in Wellington to come and tell them how to run their business better\u2014just what they needed; just what they needed. In the middle of this great uncertainty\u2014and it\u2019s still uncertain times\u2014in the middle of that hellish uncertainty, heading into level 4, the last thing they needed was some clipboard warrior who charges $2,500 a day coming in to tell them how they could do better. But that\u2019s what the Government thinks businesses in New Zealand needed and that\u2019s what would help small businesses, so they were prepared to spend a little bit of this money on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203fd985b-4fb8-4111-ba38-5033a254d962\u0022\u003EBut, actually, they weren\u2019t prepared to put their money where their mouth is and actually provide the direct assistance that businesses needed, and still need in many cases, and which would have given a greater level of certainty\u2014admittedly in uncertain times; but a greater level of confidence\u2014that the jobs that were being protected through the wage subsidy would still exist because the business would still exist when that wage subsidy expires. Instead, we have a situation where in the tens of billions\u2014or over $10 billion\u2014has been paid on a wage subsidy, much needed at the time, but which, at the end of, may well see tens of thousands of jobs, which could have been saved through direct assistance to the businesses, go away because too many businesses that could have survived with assistance will instead go under. This has been poorly targeted spending\u2014some of it good, but much of it bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a05bd3c753e4467cbd992004e1f01849\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a05bd3c753e4467cbd992004e1f01849\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call\u2014oh, I call Stuart Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00225672f2bc57b244589a113dc26366fe21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225672f2bc57b244589a113dc26366fe21\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I know it\u2019s a tough call when you\u2019ve got two Smiths up, but you did choose the right one on this occasion\u2014so thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d9534be410b4b8abedd86342aad3418\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You went for the older.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b62cdc11fb34b1ba1ba430a2c0c02dc\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! That\u2019s right, went for the older. It\u2019s a pleasure to get the call on the Appropriation (2019/20 Supplementary Estimates) Bill. We\u2019re talking about enormous numbers here. They do say that it gets very difficult for people to understand what millions mean once it gets above a lottery jackpot. I think that\u2019s absolutely right, so I did a little bit of maths. This is $40 billion worth. So if we were to pay $40 billion off at $1 a second, does anyone have any idea how long that would take, without reaching for their calculator? Well, I\u2019ll help you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205e67d9353ba40e0b40a8f803fa066a6\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Wood does. Over there, he\u2019s got an idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd14041f2f1743998d38679d14bb8c6b\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Has he? Right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276438ae621bb46de9b77fd8603a64c60\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: I just said that it will feel shorter than this speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252cc48913f274e89bbe7e68c4ff43122\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that\u2019s very complimentary. Let\u2019s hope so. I hope it seems very long to you. It is my great desire to ensure that I actually give that member some great pleasure in my speech. So it is 1,268 years for $40 billion at $1 a second. It\u2019s an enormous amount of money. If we talk about $140 billion, which debt is going to increase by, that\u2019s 4,439 years at $1 a second. That is a massive amount of money and it shows the actual challenge that we are putting our children and our grandchildren through by borrowing this amount of money. Now, yes, we had to do something, and we all agree that that\u2019s the case; it\u2019s the how and the what that is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve been here before, Mr Speaker\u2014nice smooth change there, by the way, very well done. The nearest thing that we have to compare to what we are about to go into\u2014and we are only just going into it\u2014is the 1930s. During that time, we spent money on infrastructure. We finally did in the Rangitata Diversion Race\u2014employed a lot of people, taking water from the Rangitata River across the Canterbury Plains, using it through irrigation on the way, and then the remainder going down into the R\u0101kaia and through the Highbank Power Station, generating electricity\u2014a great infrastructure spend. Now, what we\u2019re seeing here with what\u2019s being planned in a lot of the infrastructure going forward isn\u2019t as transformational as that expenditure. I think that my colleagues have put this very well before\u2014and, certainly Andrew Bayly did\u2014that when we\u2019re investing in infrastructure at a time like this, it has to be transformational. It has to enable businesses to hire people to give good jobs that are enduring and increases not only our GDP but also increases our exports that we can sell to the rest of the world to pay our way in the world. And we\u2019ll need to do that and get very good at it very quickly because $140 billion of increased debt, $40 billion in this bill, as I said, is a lot of money to pay off. It\u2019s an unimaginable amount of money until you start putting it in something like $1 a second.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ENow, the wage subsidy, yes, it was a, sort of, quick and dirty, but very effective, way of getting money out the door, as James Shaw mentioned in his speech earlier. He kind of didn\u2019t really understand the points that had been put forward by my colleagues on this bill, because, yes, no one disputes that that has done a good job of keeping some people in work, but it was quite surprising, really, that the Prime Minister was so shocked that The Warehouse announced that they were going to lay off 1,080 people. The way it sounded, she was personally insulted by it, that that company would make a decision to actually lay people off, because they had a wage subsidy. Well, actually, I don\u2019t think there would be anyone more altruistic than Sir Stephen Tindall. I think he runs his company with his employees in mind, as I\u2019m sure the rest of the board members do. But, actually, when you are a director of a company, you have your first loyalty to the company\u2014that is what\u2019s enshrined in company law. They would not have laid those people off had they not needed to do so. Yes, the wage subsidy has got us through to now, but, actually, it\u2019s putting off the day. What we need to do is to get businesses back functioning as quickly as possible. That was what was so concerning, was to get our businesses back in operation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ENow, we know that during the lockdown, the Government got themselves in a bit of a state of a tizz because they realised that they were having very great difficulty in getting fruit and vegetables to people in Auckland because 40 percent of fruit and vegetables in Auckland are sold through greengrocers, so they were talking about redesigning the distribution of fruit and vegetables into Auckland. Do you know what the simple answer was? Open the greengrocers\u2014open the greengrocers where people can buy it, keep more people in work, and get people the fruit and vegetables that they so desperately need. It was simple decisions like that that actually finished some businesses. Butchers and greengrocers are really put under pressure because of those decisions we make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThese decisions are crucial, that\u2019s why we take this so seriously. The things we are doing today, when we have a normal three-year cycle in our elections and we have a change of Government, as we will in a couple of months, they\u2019re normally easily unwound, any changes that are made, and, generally, either side of the House makes minimal changes, and whatever has been done, there\u2019s not that much damage done. But now we\u2019re talking billions. We are talking about, sadly, our grandchildren with debt and impacting on their lifestyles. Now, yes, we\u2019ve had a terrible experience with a pandemic, and it\u2019s not over yet\u2014we know that\u2014and life has changed for everyone, but we have to make\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022507d35d73792467b80633da48cdc00f8\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: You borrowed $80 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6bf9dabde134653a9c64bbf24d5e0c0\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the right decision\u2014Mr Speaker, I believe that they\u2019re drawing you into the debate; I don\u2019t believe you borrowed any money, but, however, it sounds like the member for West Coast-Tasman, who\u2019s about to retire, I understand, as he loses his seat\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbe5d1f0a5554df095f2d7fd2fc676bd\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Trying to get his name recognition up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022908ca2575193479bb9f88e04d6b277f0\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014is trying to\u2014yeah\u2014trying to get his name recognition up; well, we\u2019ll see how that goes for him next month.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EForty billion dollars\u2014it\u2019s unbelievable. They\u2019ve turned a $50 billion problem into a $100 billion problem, and that is going to cost us dearly. We worry, on this side of the House, about our grandchildren and how they\u2019re going to pay that off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThis plan isn\u2019t a plan. The Napier to Wairoa line which has been talked about, that\u2019s 19th century technology and it isn\u2019t even able to be utilised yet. What, six times\u2014six trains in six months? A waste of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e0435378dbf4aa3b6aac1e8150321f6\u0022\u003ERt Hon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, they got COVID.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022598957a33b174ab4826fffd20aa2a374\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Some of these\u2014COVID apparently; yeah, someone\u2019s got COVID, that\u2019s for sure. This expenditure is not targeted in the way that it should be. We\u2019ve got a bill that we\u2019ll be debating probably next week and they\u2019ve got 11 projects; well, there should be 111 projects on there. But all the shovel-ready projects that come up, mostly, I\u2019ve seen, would be business as usual; instead of the ratepayers paying for them, they\u2019re being put on to the taxpayer. We need transformational projects such as the Rangitata Diversion Race was back in the 1930s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcdc835860a6453a9eccd35f31427362\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got to have imagination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9664459e9594389a3022172c0eb8c63\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: We do have to have imagination. We\u2019ve got the brains in this country, but we have to be able to utilise on that. In this stage, with what we\u2019re seeing in front of us, it\u2019s just not there. I worry about that. Yes, we\u2019ve got a lot of companies in trouble at the moment. They need a future. We need certainty for the businesses and we need certainty for the employees, and we\u2019re not getting that at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThis wage subsidy has been\u2014the current one that\u2019s coming up now, with a 50 percent drop in revenue, I mean, that\u2019s great but it won\u2019t keep everyone going. Some businesses are going to fail, and, along with that, there are going to be more people on the dole queue. That\u2019s unfortunate. We don\u2019t want to see that happening. But the $490 a week tax-free payment for those losing their jobs, we\u2019re already seeing examples of people on that subsidy that will not take jobs up. You\u2019ve got to be very careful that you don\u2019t end up\u2014well, not you, Mr Speaker, but we don\u2019t end up with a situation where we are disincentivising work. Because there are jobs out there, but there\u2019s not as many as there were before. They may not get the job that they particularly want, but there are jobs there, and we just can\u2019t get people to fill them. Some of them are quite happy to sit at home for $490 a week, and that\u2019s really unfortunate. I\u2019ve got employers tearing their hair out trying to get those jobs filled, and it\u2019s not happening. So we oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002274e9e88cc3304f03b14d5f309a8c07fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274e9e88cc3304f03b14d5f309a8c07fb\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I want to talk in this appropriation bill about the shambles in the Government\u2019s response to the enormous challenge for New Zealand from COVID-19. I want to talk about jobs, and particularly jobs for my home community of Nelson, and I also want to raise real concerns about the levels of debt that this Government is proposing for New Zealand with poor quality spending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, first to the shambles: what is the gaping hole in this bill and the Government\u2019s response? It has been so plain to see in the last week over the mess at the border. You don\u2019t have to be Albert Einstein to work out that the biggest risk to New Zealand, after all of the pain that we went through, supported by National, for the lockdown, was to ensure that our border was secure. Every New Zealander is just aghast at the incompetence of allowing thousands of people from countries where COVID-19 is rampant across our borders without testing for COVID. It\u2019s not a complicated thing. It\u2019s a very basic thing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d226a113b54843398fa7f70d48ecbc8b\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Relevance\u2014relevance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022833fde01a40c4cc4b6b0b33ead56cb9f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Shane Jones: why has he and his incompetent ministerial colleagues not got the basics right of testing people when they come across the border?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the part that\u2019s even more extraordinary: seven days ago, after we learnt of the famous British couple who came in to New Zealand and tested positive for COVID-19, every New Zealander was asking the question: how many people have come into New Zealand without being tested?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e76fdd280d74a53a71851a3ac37177b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: As interesting as that is, Dr Smith, you need\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022321cda44bb1944c5931af4ed21a148a9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: A simple question\u2014and it is relevant\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f88cd26bf8c441f6aa27139369be751b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: No. Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022984a5be5113d4ac0ac02adca269aeed7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely relevant to these Estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d29236b26284c9ca87a48735c1c3b8d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Thank you. As interesting as that is, you have to link your statements to the contents of the bill, and so far I have not heard that. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222edb6c3e26de4c0cb83eaa646235ec97\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: These appropriations\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c293f8da950a48fabfddb33c4fdbd21c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m still on my feet\u2014sit down. OK, so I\u2019m telling you: get to the bill and reference it to your statements, because I have not heard that yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cabf9fdac0a4dd1829330eb7a9e8a7d\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Right at the beginning\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d02e1dc311f046a4b3c28dd53d9a990a\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Page\u2014give us the page.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202cc7015c49c4ffaaa62377b9a18112d\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I referenced to the appropriations bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e53db5abcbf54027a4c6ad880fe60ecb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Hon Shane Jones, if you relocate yourself\u2014you know the rules\u2014you do not interject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eec767ec3b843c88b6fdd9fb1766355\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: This bill extensively refers to the additional appropriations that are required for COVID-19, that include the response of our border agencies. Mr Speaker, I checked with the Clerk of the House, who told me it was a very broad debate, for me to be able to refer to such matters. The question I ask any Government speaker: why, after a week of knowing that our border was like a colander that was leaking COVID-19 through, why do we not know even today how many people have come across our border without being tested?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe issue with these appropriations is if we were truly interested in the economic wellbeing of New Zealand, the very first item in this bill would be testing for every person that came across our border to ensure that COVID-19 does not get a second wave. It\u2019s not there. Ministers have been so incompetent that we\u2019ve had the Minister of Health sidelined and now we\u2019ve got the Minister of KiwiBuild\u2014now, that\u2019s been a ripper success\u2014now in charge of the borders, and a few days into the job, it is turning out as successful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s not just the shambles at the border; the shambles has been as much in the economic response. In April, we had the Government announce its big IRD plan for providing business support, but something I have not seen in 30 years\u2014not seen in 30 years\u2014is the Minister of Revenue bring a bill into this House, rush it through all three stages, and for it to be the wrong bill. I have not seen that ever in my time, that level of incompetence, where new records are being set by Ministers opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s more serious than that\u2014more serious. I have a business in my community: Armadillo\u2019s is a restaurant in Richmond. It received a grant under that very scheme. \u201CHere\u2019s your $240,000 to help support those eight jobs.\u201D Do you know what happened? The next day, IRD wrote and said, \u201CWe want the money back. We want the money back immediately.\u201D Now, they\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c8d5dc055be42fc9be2468146fd714f\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: IRD doesn\u2019t administer that scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217ff1bf79c804ec8bc1aa6c8b83f771d\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, IRD\u2014and I\u2019ll be happy if the member across the House, who I am sure is as incompetent as his ministerial colleagues, would like me to table the letter from IRD demanding the return of that money. I\u2019d be more than happy to do so, and I seek his help in trying to save those jobs in Richmond, on which I have corresponded with the Minister and for which the Government handed out the money one moment, pulled it back the next\u2014how that\u2019s friendly for small business, I do not know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen we had in the same parameter the Government saying the scheme\u2019s going to provide $6 billion of support\u2014$6 billion. Two months later, less than $60 million has been paid out. Now, I accept we\u2019ve got a delivery rate on KiwiBuild of 0.4 percent; on the IRD business support scheme, we have a delivery of 1.4 percent, was what the Minister told us this afternoon. Well, let it make plain: members on this side of the House rate 1.4 percent, or one out of 100, as an abysmal fail in their response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to come to the issue that should be the focus of this appropriation bill, and that is the issue of jobs. I think I\u2019m the only member of Parliament\u2014when this country had 10 percent unemployment, and I have to tell you, meeting hundreds, thousands, of good, hard-working, committed people desperate for a job would be one of the most challenging and depressing times I as a member of Parliament have had. I say to this Parliament: we need to pull out every possible action we can to ensure that the numbers predicted by Treasury of our unemployment surging to 10 percent, or 260,000 New Zealanders, does not occur. I just simply ask people to look at the track record, because every year through the 1990s\u2014and this appropriation bill should learn the lessons of the 1990s of working with the private sector to create and grow jobs, because we inherited 10 percent unemployment from Labour in 1990, and when we left Government in 1999, we had more than halved it. Surprise, surprise, when we came back into Government in 2008, unemployment again had soared\u2014it had got to over 8 percent. Again, a National Government did the hard yards of getting people back into work every single year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242958fbbb210458b925dea3f15f47242\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no, just taking them off the list\u2014just taking them off the list. Not necessarily a job\u2014just cut them off the list. Cut them off, cut them off, cut them off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c510c00979b4d1686b944daa0ecd097\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: From 2010, 2011, 2012, 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17, the number of people on the dole declined, and I\u2019m proud of that National record. Here\u2019s the interesting part for the Minister that\u2019s interjecting: in the first two years of your Government, even before COVID came, the numbers on the dole increased\u201413,000 in 2019; 10,000 in 2018. The record is plain. Dole numbers go up under Labour administrations and down under ours, and that is why members on this side of the House say that jobs are at the core of the issues in this appropriation bill and at the core of the issues that will face the country on 19 September. Those New Zealanders who are concerned about jobs will be looking to National in the same way as in previous economic downturns. The hard yards have been left to National to create the jobs and keep Kiwis in work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe last point I want to make, which is so much covered in this bill, is the lack of shovel-ready projects. You know, in my electorate of Nelson last week, they announced one of their big infrastructure projects: they are going to put some kerb and channel on Beach Road. It\u2019s a $320,000 project\u2014be smaller than the Table Office in the House. That\u2019s the infrastructure vision that we have from this Government? It is truly pathetic. What we need is the sort of infrastructure projects that this Government\u2014just look at Auckland light rail to see where this Government is incapable of delivering the infrastructure that New Zealand needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe last thing I note in this appropriation is the extra money for parliamentary services which so well illustrates the waste: the $570,000 for the slide on the front lawn of Parliament that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00225412501ee5424275b1c22f1edb7976b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225412501ee5424275b1c22f1edb7976b3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00225ec447559cdf448db2d51fc23452a48b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ec447559cdf448db2d51fc23452a48b\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call in this debate, and it will be a smaller call, because I realise there are some of my colleagues that are waiting to take a call before this debate finishes in about 15 minutes\u2019 time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EI want to start by saying I\u2019m a bit disappointed the financial oracle Dr Duncan Webb was not taking a call in this debate, because\u2014unfortunately, I think, for this Government\u2014Dr Duncan Webb decided that he would make a submission to the Christchurch City Council for their rate increases, where he slammed them for not increasing rates high enough. He actually said it would cost jobs and incomes for hard-working families. What\u2019s causing the lack of jobs and incomes in Christchurch is the delay for this Government on the Metro Sports Facility, the delay for the convention centre, the delay for the multi-use sports facility, the delay for the Northern Corridor. Why that\u2019s important for this debate is because, for all the money that they\u2019ve so-called appropriated in Christchurch for their start-up investor fund\u2014whatever that was called\u2014not one dollar has been spent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESo Dr Duncan Webb\u2014what was really priceless was that in his submission, he tried to say, \u201CI\u2019m not a Government member, I\u2019m here as a Christchurch-centric MP.\u201D, were his words. Well, didn\u2019t he learn? Well, he will, once one Hon Grant Robertson sits down beside him over the next few days in the Chamber and reminds him that when he speaks, he is always speaking on behalf of the Government. What a shambles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EYou can have a person turn up and say that increasing rates on hard-working families will cost jobs and incomes, because what a Labour Government fails to see\u2014it\u2019s not about just spending money, because let\u2019s remind ourselves, in the last year of the former Labour Government, the Salvation Army report said, out of all their increased expenditure under the Helen Clark Government, they did not increase social progress by 1 percent. All their increased expenditure and they did not increase social progress by 1 percent. What\u2019s the point of a Labour Government if you\u2019re not increasing social progress? They spent all their money and they got nothing in return. And here we are again: Groundhog Day; appropriations. If it wasn\u2019t for a sector, this would be comical, but in fact, it\u2019s desperate. What we\u2019re talking about here is appropriations for health and mental health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EDr Nick Smith talked about metrics. Well, the front-line new mental health service: $455 are allocated; they\u2019ve spent $30 million of that. Not only that but in 18 months\u2019 time, do you know what their target is? They would have rolled it out to less than three percent of GP practices\u2014less than three percent of GP practices. So here they are: like the Salvation Army said, they talk a big game, they throw a lot of money around, but they didn\u2019t increase social progress by 1 percent. Under written questions, Dr David Clark told me, for their service they announced last year: $8 million that was going to provide support for people with mental distress pitching up to emergency departments. How much of that $8 million has been spent to date? Zero. In their first year, they haven\u2019t even got one dollar out of the gate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESo here we are. Yeah, you can write all the big figures you want to in appropriations, but an area, a much-needed area like mental health where the current Government talked up a big game in Opposition\u2014we had the Mental Health Commissioner come out in his report this week, and do you know what he said? From 2008 to 2018, mostly years under the former National Government, access increased by 55 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d64046e907564fcd8e91a86c0bb1f7df\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish\u2014absolute rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022618a52dc93324124b68003d4b961ebe2\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s in the report. You go and read the Mental Health Commissioner report that was released this week: access was increased by 55 percent for $300 million. This Government has said they\u2019re going to spend $1.9 billion on mental health and asked the health Minister how much he\u2019s increased access by. Their own mental health inquiry said they needed to increase access from 7 percent of the population to 20 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221f651ff0-881f-4148-8631-0161f1c60f61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d490b6bc1ee4e5786ba2e76f1f81011\u0022\u003EHamish Walker\u003C/span\u003E: How much did they spend?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ebb41ab7184462ca10264d18513c9bb\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they don\u2019t know. They can\u2019t tell us. In answer to their question they say they don\u2019t know. They\u2019ve thrown, well, allegedly, $1.9 billion and they\u2019ve got no target, they\u2019ve got no metric. No wonder the Salvation Army said, in the last time they were in Government: for all the increased expenditure, they didn\u2019t increase social progress by 1 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EHere we are again: big appropriations, talking big figures, no targeted spending, no targets\u2014because, of course, they scrapped all the targets in the health sector\u2014no targets to be measured by. Then, when you drill down individually, as a spokesperson, for some of the projects that vulnerable New Zealanders need the most today, in the first year, they haven\u2019t spent any of the allocation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EWhat is wrong with this Government? What is the point of a Labour Government if they\u2019re not driving social progress? Here we are again. Sounded pretty good at the time, didn\u2019t it? \u201COne point nine billion for mental health.\u201D And now they\u2019re getting caught out; they\u2019re not delivering. You know what? It was the DHB representatives and the annual reviews that were like the canaries in the cages, because they were telling the Health Committee they didn\u2019t know if that money had flowed out yet. They couldn\u2019t point to where that money had gone. So you can talk up a big game, you can write documents, you can talk about billions of dollars. But in the end, you will be judged on delivery, and we all know\u2014and the public is learning\u2014that this Government does not deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00227752234f927d4ba9b19b6ede7f02048b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227752234f927d4ba9b19b6ede7f02048b\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the chance to speak on this, the appropriation bill. A few people on my side of the House have said that the Government has been spending like drunken sailors on shore leave. I am here to defend them\u2014I mean, of course, the reputation of drunken sailors on shore leave. Speaking of drunken sailors, I\u2019d just like to point out to the House that I have no vested interest in this\u2014I am no longer one of those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ETo spend money like a drunken sailors on shore leave would imply a lot less than $100 billion. That would be one hell of a run ashore, as they say. The price of a rum and Coke in Sydney in the early 2000s was pretty steep, but it wasn\u2019t that steep, and the cocktails in Singapore were eye-watering in cost as well as just eye-watering, but $100 billion, such as we\u2019re seeing now being appropriated\u2014the top-up that this bill represents\u2014is pretty considerable indeed. But the problem, of course, isn\u2019t about the fact of spending; it\u2019s the quality of the spending. It\u2019s not the spending like drunken sailors that is the issue in relation to investments being made. Indeed, if the dollars that were being spent by the Government on behalf of all taxpayers, current and future, were being spent in the wisest possible way, then we would have no objection. But it\u2019s the bad decision-making that\u2019s inherent in here. It\u2019s the detail that\u2019s in this bill, but it\u2019s also the things that are not represented here in terms of a plan to get ourselves out of the hole that the country now finds itself in that the Opposition is honour-bound to bring to the attention of the country in this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI want to talk about shovel-ready projects. That\u2019s not a particular phrase that appears in the bill, of course, but more of a colloquial way of describing infrastructure that\u2019s at least supposedly ready to be rolled out. But that\u2019s really the point\u2014that\u2019s the problem. So much that should be ready to go simply is not. So the appropriateness of the phrase \u201Cshovel-ready projects\u201D, I\u2019m afraid, is that we\u2019ve ended up in a big hole of debt and we\u2019re trying to dig our way out of it, which anyone will be able to tell you is not the way to get out of a hole\u2014we\u2019re going the wrong way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe \u201Cready\u201D bit of \u201Cshovel-ready\u201D is also a problem. We\u2019ve heard now about lots of different things that the Government\u2019s planned and lots of things that they\u2019ve announced, but not so much that they\u2019ve delivered. If I look at my own area that I represent in north-west Auckland, there\u2019s been talk of a light rail project there for at least three years now, but only talk, and we\u2019ve gone backwards in the sense that not only is that project not going ahead now but the hard-working local MP, who\u2019s been advocating for better public transport for the area, has been told every time within the last three years that he goes to the authorities to seek a bit of investment in public transport infrastructure\u2014which, to be fair, is a long-running, longstanding problem\u2014\u201CDon\u2019t worry, because light rail is on the way, and any other project will not stack up in comparison with that. Hang on, help is on its way any decade now.\u201D So the question, as I say, is not about spending per se; it\u2019s the quality of spending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThen my final theme, on a related note, would be about the question of the dollars and cents in this bill\u2014I say \u201Ccents\u201D, but, of course, it\u2019s all rounded, not only to the nearest $1,000, and fair enough too. But there are some pretty big numbers\u2014$10 billion here and $10 billion there soon adds up when you\u2019re talking about real money, as the saying goes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s about the quality. It\u2019s about getting ourselves into a virtuous cycle whereby we\u2019ll be able to be placed more strongly in the years ahead and not in a weaker position for our children, our grandchildren, and future generations, because that, I fear, is the overall impact of the bill, whereby we\u2019re going to end up in a hole of debt without an obvious way of getting out, certainly on the evidence of the bill that we see before us today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00227c61c8c0292e4705a3916f12483f2c56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c61c8c0292e4705a3916f12483f2c56\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOOD (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m very pleased to take a call in this debate. It\u2019s an important bill, and it\u2019s an important bill from both a parliamentary and constitutional point of view, because one of the precepts of the way that we work in a parliamentary democracy is that money that\u2019s appropriated from citizens through taxes has to be authorised through this Parliament, which represents the people from which we appropriate the money. And the reason that this bill is important\u2014and I want to really emphasise this point, because it hasn\u2019t been reflected at all in any of the reflections from members opposite\u2014is that this bill serves the purpose of appropriating money that will be used in the 2019-20 fiscal year that was not appropriated in the Budget that was set for the 2019-20 fiscal year. So the debate over this bill actually has quite an important constitutional and parliamentary function.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIt is not actually usually a time for polemics and histrionics in this House. I\u2019ve been in this House for about four of these Budget cycles on both sides of the House, and generally speaking, the Opposition engages in this debate in a reasonably sensible way, actually examines the Supplementary Estimates, looks at what has been appropriated that was not appropriated at the time of the original Estimates in the prior calendar year, and examines those. It\u2019s also the case that usually the Opposition, prior to that, has done their work in the select committee, because what happens in this process is that the Finance and Expenditure Committee has Treasury in front of them, they examine the Supplementary Estimates, and they get to ask Treasury to give good information about why the Supplementary Estimates are different. We haven\u2019t heard a dicky-bird about that from the Opposition. They haven\u2019t actually done their fundamental job in the examination of the Supplementary Estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn the time that I have, I want to touch on some of the things that are included in these Supplementary Estimates that I think are actually incredibly important. The reason I\u2019m a little bit disappointed in the performance of the Opposition, as well, is that there\u2019s probably been no more important set of Supplementary Estimates presented to this House in generations, because we know that these Supplementary Estimates\u2014which came in two parts, first on 14 May, the second on 16 June\u2014were delivered in extraordinary times, that these Supplementary Estimates appropriate a significant sum in order to deal with the unprecedented crisis of COVID-19 and its impact on the health and wellbeing of New Zealanders and on our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m actually really proud of some of the additional appropriations that are made through the Supplementary Estimates. I\u2019m actually really pleased that the Hon Dr Nick Smith raised before the experience of New Zealand in the early 1990s recession when, yes, as he said, we had 10 percent unemployment. If the House wants to know one of the reasons why we had 10, in fact 11 percent unemployment in that time, it\u2019s because the party that sits on the other side of the House delivered Budgets at a time of economic crisis and recession. Instead of investing in New Zealanders and communities, they chose to retrench. They chose to cut people\u2019s benefits. They chose to cut investment in communities and infrastructure. That exacerbated the situation, put more New Zealanders out of work and created more social misery. So I\u2019m incredibly proud that through these Supplementary Estimates, our Government hasn\u2019t retrenched. It hasn\u2019t withdrawn investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn fact, it has put in greater investment into New Zealanders and their communities. We\u2019ve done it through things like doubling the winter energy payment so that our senior citizens this winter, our beneficiaries this winter, don\u2019t have to sit in the cold through winter, don\u2019t have to put up with the risk of getting sick because of that. They\u2019ve actually got some extra money in their back pockets to ensure that they can get through this challenging period. We\u2019ve done it through the additional $25 per week for people on main benefits because we believe that if New Zealand\u2019s going to get through this economic and social crisis of COVID-19, we need to bring everyone with it, including those people who find it the toughest. So I\u2019m really proud of that additional investment. We did it, of course, through the wage subsidy, a decision that was taken quickly, a policy that was developed for which there was no playbook at all. I want to acknowledge the Minister of Finance here, Grant Robertson, the Minister of Social Development, Carmel Sepuloni, who were absolutely essential to the development of that programme. We hear every single day about the difference it has made, about the jobs it has saved, about the businesses that it has given time to help get through the impact of COVID-19. It\u2019s about the tax loss carry-back scheme, which has helped to pump cash flow into businesses to help them get through, the interest-free small business loan scheme administered by IRD, which has given over $1 billion to help small businesses get through. These are the investments that our Government has made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWe haven\u2019t retrenched. We haven\u2019t de-invested, we haven\u2019t given up on people as we\u2019ve been told to at times in this debate by members opposite. I\u2019m proud of this Supplementary Estimates bill because it speaks to the values of this Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00228c1c4d878a26415b8b68f04748d485de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c1c4d878a26415b8b68f04748d485de\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The time for this debate has ended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220683b353d50442f99cf533f8c75de688\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2019/20 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and the Imprest Supply (First for 2020/21) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 46; New Zealand First 9; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 55; ACT New Zealand 1; Ross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBills read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e90bbc3b88947ba890f30eed230f09b\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2019/20 Supplementary Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e82cbeb87304408d92d2f562c38e5e05\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002210896525286e45e4a02374bd3bdfdda3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210896525286e45e4a02374bd3bdfdda3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley)\u003C/span\u003E: Colleagues, the House is in committee on the Appropriation (2019/20 Supplementary Estimates) Bill. In the committee stage of an Appropriation (Supplementary Estimates) Bill, only the Minister\u2019s amendments and any amendments to them are considered. There is, therefore, no debate on any provisions where there are no amendments proposed, which means in this case there will be no debate on clauses 1 to 3. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EI also remind members that the House has agreed to trial the removal of the four-call limit in the committee stage. I encourage you to keep your contributions focused\u2014remember that five minutes is not a target\u2014and relevant to good interaction with the Minister in the chair. We have the ability then to take short calls and have a series of questions and answers between members and the Minister. You can be confident that you will get a number of short calls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002212b3b272a61c400ca233f017ed296e3c\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e29c523be72f423d887bd6710268a8e0\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e66066fd28264ef895962675615762f1\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223fe87752c1e14784975389af696358c5\u0022\u003EClause 4  Overview\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00220385ac18f6634f908009853775583c22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220385ac18f6634f908009853775583c22\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair\u2014my apologies for being too quick to get going there. I thought it might be helpful\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205c721171b9342779c0454d9fec09dc8\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: Very quick that Minister; he\u2019s very quick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec7f5aeba22e47a39d379d387fdca5a9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, thank you very much. I thought it might be helpful at the outset of the consideration of the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that I explain clearly what it does. In almost all years, once Cabinet has decided in early- to mid-April the amounts to be included in the Estimates for the year about to start and the Supplementary Estimates for the year about to end, there is a Budget moratorium from then until Budget day where no further decisions with financial implications are made. This ensures that the Budget documents presented to the House on Budget day reflect all of the decisions that Ministers have made. This year, with a need for a timely and ongoing response to COVID-19, it was not possible to have a Budget moratorium. This has happened once before in the time that I\u2019ve been in this House, and that was immediately following the Canterbury earthquakes when a similar situation befell the Government where there was a need to make decisions in what would normally have been the Budget moratorium period; the same occurred this year because of COVID-19.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe addition to the 2019/20 Supplementary Estimates that I presented to the House last Tuesday contains all changes to appropriations and new appropriations for 2019/20 decided since the 2019/20 Supplementary Estimates closed in early April. I thank the members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee for their expeditious examination of the addition to the 2019/20 Supplementary Estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper incorporates the Appropriation (2019/20 Supplementary Estimates) Bill, the changes to appropriations, and new appropriations for 2019/20 contained in the addition to the 2019/20 Supplementary Estimates. It is a revision-tracked SOP showing the changes being from the bill as introduced. For each appropriation or capital injection in the schedules to the bill, the amount of the change in the Supplementary Estimates\u2014what is the second column in the addition to the Supplementary Estimates\u2014is replaced with the amount of the cumulative change in the Supplementary Estimates and the addition to the 2019/20 Supplementary Estimates. Essentially, what that does is bring together all of the spending in the 2019/20 year, rather than, as I might have heard in some earlier parts of this bill, an extensive discussion about what is about to come in the 2020/21 year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat is covered here and what is new here is the spending that we needed to undertake in this financial year that is about to end on 30 June, rather than the expenditure that\u2019s coming forward. I look forward to the debate and questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7d195163dde44849b15a0f4331cfb38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7d195163dde44849b15a0f4331cfb38\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E My thanks to the Minister for explaining the reasonably complicated sort of arrangements. So am I right in assuming that you only want us to debate the changes to the bill in terms of the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d41965794404b4c980a43a3161f9bc8\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the SOP we\u2019re debating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233c609be68444d43b404b72eedbd4a34\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: So the Supplementary Estimates, for example, included that there were to be $344 million not spent in the KiwiBuild housing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211d7f5b220384a928d389251df0d36e4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say we\u2019re on clause 4, which is the overview of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022491dc2568ad74cddb40b1c1ad6d5b65d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I thought we were taking it all as one part. We\u2019re not taking it all as one part? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022619e64fb482546eda761f27145f2b068\u0022\u003EMichael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I seek leave that the provisions of this bill be taken as one part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d32838ff5f24d90b6c185e86d2a833d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d705a5d716de4771b5e51ed01f7f3e11\u0022\u003EClauses 4 to 8 and Schedules 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c79123e0ec2a4b2ca1b36538d8a87522\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c79123e0ec2a4b2ca1b36538d8a87522\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. So anyway\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a65337acfa04f1c853eec0a85bef863\u0022\u003EHon Tracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s happened to your hair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022578e5b5a64f94a66af945da4063b05e7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t know what\u2019s happened to my hair. So the original situation in the Supplementary Estimates was, as I\u2019m trying to clarify, that we were going to spend $344 million less on KiwiBuild than we anticipated, and I can only assume that\u2019s because that policy has been a monumental flop and a good example of the difference between intentions, announcements, and delivery. But we\u2019re not debating that. Is that what you\u2019re saying? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aca00a9aef247d6a22d8cbc8c10ea8e\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s an SOP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288fcc2fc8b104e0b97b73419fa553f0b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Right, OK. So one thing that we would be debating, then, would be the change from this single page 31, where we have just one line. We\u2019ve got this long list of spending\u2014and the people of New Zealand will be fascinated to know the speed with which money is spent in this place. So there was a line that was $12 billion\u2014a nice round figure\u2014for the wage subsidy, business support subsidy COVID-19, which the National Party was broadly supportive of, and that\u2019s been increased to $15.2 billion. So the question that I have for the Minister as we just kick things off is: how much does he think is actually going to be spent of that $15.2 billion? What\u2019s his latest intelligence on that at the moment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00224ca13890b8834fdab0c459fb5742cc57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ca13890b8834fdab0c459fb5742cc57\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Paul Goldsmith for the question. So the member is right in saying that it is the nature of\u2014it\u2019s in the name. It\u2019s in the nature of estimates that they are estimates of spending. The $12 billion was the amount put aside for the first phase of the wage subsidy scheme. Around $11 billion of that was spent\u2014slightly over $11 billion. The additional sum of money is the estimated required money for the wage subsidy extension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, it will not all be spent in the period, in my view. I think at the moment we\u2019re just under a billion dollars for that. I would need to come back and let the member know. We\u2019re somewhere between $700 million and about $900 million that has been already allocated in the wage subsidy extension. When Treasury did their estimates on the wage subsidy extension, they thought that it would support around 900,000 employees. So far, it\u2019s supporting around 230,000 employees. Arguably, this is a good sign. It\u2019s that businesses are not in the situation of having that 40 percent reduction in turnover in the previous month, and so therefore they aren\u2019t requiring it. But we need to see a little bit more time before we can be absolutely sure of that. So what this reflects is the cost of the original scheme and the estimated cost of the extension, which was $3.2 billion, as the member will recall. It may be that we don\u2019t spend that in the end. That is the nature of estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3b76e1801954f3f8c30bc7c04f66d85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3b76e1801954f3f8c30bc7c04f66d85\u0022\u003ERt Hon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve got three brief questions to the Minister of Finance, and the first one is quite specific to clause 4, and it is clause 4 \u201COverview\u201D, and the fact that this must meet the requirements of the Public Finance Act 1989. Earlier this afternoon, we had a lengthy debate around the amendment to the Public Finance Act, which, as I said in the House, I thought was fairly fluffy sort of stuff, bringing in the wellbeing framework. I just want to make sure that the Minister, in his competence, has taken into account that now the Public Finance Act has been amended since he put the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) before the House\u2014or is in the process of being amended, because we covered off the second reading earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second point I want the Minister to comment on\u2014and I certainly don\u2019t do this just to embarrass him\u2014is we\u2019ve got the bill before the House and then we\u2019ve got Supplementary Order Paper 513. Again, specifically to clause 4, when I look at it, the only addition has been to clause 4(c), section 8 and Schedule 3, and it\u2019s the additions of the words \u201Cand Offices of Parliament\u201D. I just wonder whether the Minister could tell us why that is included in an SOP and wasn\u2019t included in the original bill. I assume it\u2019s an afterthought. I\u2019ve gone through the papers and I can\u2019t actually find any detail of it at all, so I\u2019d be grateful if the Minister could tell us why the amended SOP is before the House, specifically to the inclusion of the words \u201COfficers of Parliament\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EMy third question relates to the additional appropriations in the supplementary Supplementary Estimates to the Ministry for Primary Industries. Of course, I do this because of my previous association with the ministry. It\u2019s the $10.245 million additional Supplementary Estimates in the Supplementary Order Paper. When I spoke of this earlier in a contribution, the Hon Shane Jones interjected and said it\u2019s all for extension services. I said to Mr Jones that I don\u2019t think it is, and I invited him to turn to page 12 of the additions to the Supplementary Estimates information. There\u2019s a whole lot of pork industry processers who have received money\u2014Freshpork, for example, $1.760 million; Wilson Hellaby, $1.054 million. I\u2019m just interested in what happened here. What was the reason why we\u2019re suddenly having to find $10 million of taxpayer money to support what looks like some sort of support to the pork industry and why it was specifically required for the pork industry and not for any of the other red meat producers in New Zealand. I assume it has something to do with lockdown and the ability of pork producers to get their produce processed adequately. But if the Minister could elaborate on that, I\u2019d be grateful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESubsequent to that, I have a number of other questions for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00226e4f5a20f0994c83adc6d9a4e6fbd488\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e4f5a20f0994c83adc6d9a4e6fbd488\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member very much for his questions. On the first point, I think he answered his own question in his contribution, which is that the changes to the Public Finance Act are only at second reading at this stage rather than any further on in our work, but the member can rest assured that we applied the wellbeing lens to all of the proposals that were in front of us, in particular looking at how the populations that are already the most disadvantaged have been affected by COVID-19, and ensuring that we had spending that went in that direction. So it was certainly part of our thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAnd I do note, although the member perhaps uses pejorative language to describe this framework, I invite him to read the speech of his new leader last Sunday, who actually endorsed the framework\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f4d4241f8154b0bb716c703d98f9ec1\u0022\u003ERt Hon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Sunday before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022065b415c02534b3091e80293510478f5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, Sunday before, and endorsed it. I don\u2019t want to create another division inside the National caucus, but I just invite him to read that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOn the matter of the Officers of Parliament, that was included not because of an oversight at all, in fact, but that the Officers of Parliament Committee received specific requests from some of the officers for increased expenditure as a result of restrictions from COVID-19. So it was actually a very specific instruction for the Officers of Parliament Committee, which I don\u2019t think the member currently serves on, but I know has served on in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe matter of pork is one that all Ministers who were members of the COVID-19 Ministerial Committee will be able to talk at great length about. The issue that arose here was an animal welfare issue, essentially, around the fact that, because we weren\u2019t able to export pork products or we weren\u2019t able to see them processed in the way that we wanted to, there was the risk of a wholesale slaughter of a lot of pigs in a way that we would not, in this House, deem appropriate, and so decisions were taken to support, as much as possible, that pork to be processed and got to supermarkets, got to food banks, and so on, but the cost on those suppliers needed to be met from somewhere, and that largely was an animal welfare issue to ensure that they were processed and humanely dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00222b3648aa48a54202813b234428690b49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b3648aa48a54202813b234428690b49\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Oh thank you, Mr Chair. My interest in Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 513, not surprisingly, is in respect of Vote Health, and the amendments that have been made to it since the bill was introduced on Budget day\u2014which takes the supplementary appropriations to district health boards to over $389 million. And they\u2019ve, effectively, all gone up since the bill was increased on Budget day. I\u2019m presuming the Minister can just clarify this, that the supplementary appropriations were the meat and drink, really, of the announcements that the Government made, I think, on around 17 March, as part of the extra funding that was announced at that time to support the health response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EWhat was interesting about that announcement, which probably had something in the region of about $450 million overall, was that not all of that funding\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a04e6ebb9a8e490aacbc4707a92a6194\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: 495.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cab8d2c2a12436aa06d2899d15437ca\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, 445, was it? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274ed40c2a12d4b6a8c1aa8febdc5f571\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: 495.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1b1e8cd4f9e4866b638f22d1ee670e7\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: 95, was it? Gosh, I must\u2019ve missed some.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENot all of that, actually by my reading of the announcement, would have been funding that would have gone directly\u2014sorry, channelled through DHBs in order to get to the end user. So it seems to me that these increases, totalling nearly $400 million, seem much, much higher than the DHBs would have needed in order to be able to give effect to the announcements that were made on 17 March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EMy second question is around whether or not we\u2019re going to actually get there. Because one of the extraordinary aspects of that was, for example, there was a quite big dollop of money for the increasing and the purchase of influenza vaccines, which were needed right then. What I couldn\u2019t understand was why we waited a whole month to actually place the orders for that, particularly when there was so much interest in actually getting the flu vaccines. That is an anecdote, not a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe question, really, is, given that we\u2019re now only seven days from the end of the 2019-20 financial year and this is an updated SOP, one would presume that the numbers are accurate. Except it seems to me that we\u2019re going to struggle to spend this money, if the example of the flu vaccines is anything to go by. So why is all of the money being channelled through the DHBs when some of it was going to public health units and other healthcare services that weren\u2019t being managed by the DHBs, and is this all necessary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002294bfa63227814bebbf897c1c40be363d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294bfa63227814bebbf897c1c40be363d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The flu vaccine\u2019s not covered by this. So that\u2019s clear\u2014that was an already appropriated sum of money that was being spent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the member\u2019s question, I can be very specific of the increase of $495.85 million\u2014$350 million of that was to purchase additional stocks of personal protective equipment. That was, as the member will recall, distributed via DHBs, so it was the subject of some controversy at the time, but let\u2019s be fair that that is the structure that we have in the health system. It also includes $58 million on a matter that the member is most interested in, which is the cost of providing managed isolation or quarantine facilities: $51.85 million, which was a mixture of purchasing of additional ventilator and respiratory equipment and meeting some of the costs for providing additional ICU facilities as well. Obviously, the good news is we were not required to expend all of that, although we had to manage the cost of that, including with private hospitals which, again, the member will be aware of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere was $37 million to undertake the purchase of equipment for laboratory testing, $14 million to implement the COVID contact tracing action plan, and a small $1 million fiscally neutral transfer to allow aspects of the Pacific community response package to be dealt with. There was an offset involving the primary healthcare strategy and some money moving across there, but that is the detail of that expenditure. As the member notes, there were some criticisms of the DHB\u2019s ability to get PPE to where it was needed, but that was the mechanism that was used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6cf3ece30ae48cbbadd2100ee016664\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6cf3ece30ae48cbbadd2100ee016664\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the Minister for that explanation, and I mention this not by way of an attempt to catch him out, but the attachment that went with the press release on 17 March specifically said that \u201Cthe remaining funds are earmarked for future announcements, as required, such as ensuring New Zealand has sufficient medicines, flu vaccines, face masks, and PPE\u201D\u2014so flu vaccines were included in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI just would like one last clarification on this, because the Minister mentioned managed isolation, which, as he rightly points out, has been in the news quite a bit. Because the overwhelming majority of the managed isolation services are being provided in the Auckland and Counties Manukau district health boards regions, it seems to me that certainly the principal costs of accommodation are not covered by this appropriation, and it wouldn\u2019t be actually that fair\u2014it doesn\u2019t appear to be part of the calculations that the agency nursing and healthcare assistance staff or the testing costs are actually falling on those two DHBs alone. So it would be helpful to understand quite which costs for managed isolation are falling on the DHBs and, if so, which ones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00225eaf0f6b3da14d9b836db71d8feec35c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225eaf0f6b3da14d9b836db71d8feec35c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I will get some further advice on that very specific point from the member Michael Woodhouse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhile he is focusing on the DHB costs, I would note that, if he looks a little further on, there are increased costs around areas of the national services, if you look on the next page. So I am going to make the assumption at this point that, actually, if he and I sat down and did the maths, we would probably discover that the majority of that was being delivered through national services costs rather than through DHBs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00227222f66a12844572b6470c9ddf13fa32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227222f66a12844572b6470c9ddf13fa32\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just interested to hear from the Minister in the chair, Grant Robertson: we had, as we were talking about before, this increase in the business support subsidy to $15.2 billion estimated spending\u2014probably one of the largest single items of expenditure in the history of the country\u2014and then we have, also with social development, investigation of overpayments and fraudulent payments has increased by $1.3 million. I\u2019m just interested in that. There haven\u2019t been any changes in the supplementary, so it sort of appears that the Government has been happy to spend the $15.2 billion but has not really made any extra allowance for any attempt to ensure that any investigation of overpayments and fraudulent payments were looked into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThere was an element of controversy around this: there was reported\u2014and maybe it was incorrectly reported\u2014that the Minister\u2019s office wasn\u2019t interested in that side of things, and the Minister has said that you were interested. I suppose people on the streets are recognising of the importance of the wage subsidy to help cushion the blow, as has been said, to get businesses through, but they do want to have\u2014and there was a sort of rough and willing readiness, acceptance that the first tranche of these payments was on a high-trust basis, but there, I suppose, is slightly less sense of accommodation to the sense that for the second lot, having had two or three months to figure out the plans, there would be a bit more thought put into ensuring that that money gets to the right people and the right people only. So I just wanted to just test with the Minister: had any thought been given to putting more resources into policing it than what appears to have been provided there\u2014or maybe I\u2019ve missed something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9a949d6fa314b6eaa39e542ad6f1a70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9a949d6fa314b6eaa39e542ad6f1a70\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, I\u2019ll just take one more call and get some further information, and then we\u2019ll understand, I\u2019m sure. In fact, all members will understand that the Budget\u2019s a very large document. What I can tell the member is an interim response to his question, that the audit function is covered by both the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) and Inland Revenue. There are 104 auditors who are employed to look into the wage subsidy scheme. We\u2019re just going to get a little bit of information from the member on the split of that. Also, because MSD is a very effective and efficient agency, they will have been doing a significant amount of this work from baseline expenditure as well. So I will get a little bit more detail for the member on that, but I can confirm that there are 104 auditors, if my memory serves me right, from some paper that I saw earlier today. I think there\u2019s been around 6,000 audits undertaken for the wage subsidy scheme\u2014so that\u2019s a significant sample\u2014and around over $150 million repaid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002284fca80b5c0a45b1abe92f5f007028f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284fca80b5c0a45b1abe92f5f007028f9\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just wanted to look at the housing and urban development component. Obviously we\u2019re very concerned, as all New Zealanders are, about the homeless and those who are dispossessed and struggling to find housing. So it\u2019s with some alarm, I suppose, to see a reduction in this\u2014and I\u2019m trying to understand and would be grateful if the Minister could help me, because obviously we haven\u2019t had the analysis around this. But the transitional housing component has dropped from just on $60 million down to $41 million, so that\u2019s a $10 drop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThen there\u2019s been also a reduction in the public housing by a much smaller amount, but none the less a reduction. So given the environment we\u2019re working in, and I understand a lot of homeless people have been put into accommodation\u2014particularly hotels and motels\u2014and are enjoying a much better lifestyle as a result of living in hotels, I just somehow wonder why there would be a reduction in that component, or whether, in fact, the transitional housing relates to some of the new initiatives. I presume that\u2019s an operating cost, not a capital cost, and therefore how does that relate, because I know the Government has a very ambitious target around transitional housing? I presume it\u2019s not the KiwiBuild, which is only 380 houses, but this must be the social housing component. So if you could elaborate on that reduction of roughly $10 million in this appropriation it would be very helpful. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022569c1bc4852b44049d57e894af499388\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022569c1bc4852b44049d57e894af499388\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The member\u2014who is a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014I know went through these matters in some detail with Treasury officials last week, and I am in possession of the same paper here that went in front of him, and if he looked at page 12 of that, he would understand. And I did try to explain this a little bit in my first comment about what the numbers in the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) actually refer to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo, if I can help the member here\u2014and it might help other members as well\u2014in that paper, the transitional housing original estimates were in the Budget 2019-20, and were $138 million. There was then the change in the original Supplementary Estimates which would have added $59 million, but in eventuality it was $41 million, not $59 million, bringing a total of $180 million. So, rather than being a reduction, it is a more accurate assessment of the additional amount of money that\u2019s required in the Supplementary Estimates on top of the normal Estimates. So, yes, only $41 million of $59 million was spent, but the total amount of money\u2014the $180 million\u2014I suspect is probably a record spend in that area, I imagine. But that\u2019s what I was trying to explain before; you\u2019ve got to add up all of both the original Estimates, the original Supplementary Estimates, and now the SOP caused by the fact that we have these extraordinary circumstances. And I\u2019m sure the member will now recall that from his studious approach, that I know he takes, in the committee to the matters that were brought in front of the committee last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e488deea140547af99266bf418079761\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e488deea140547af99266bf418079761\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Another question that is a little bit puzzling, and I\u2019d just like to have a bit more clarification on, is around the revenue for the initial fair value write-down relating to the small-business cash-flow scheme. So there are two, sort of, figures here. One is the $5.2 million set up for the scheme\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbac27cf76304053a851b03f654ee713\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What page you reading from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221242e2459cb9430d9e7cc927b3e11291\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Page 30\u2014page 30. So, first, you\u2019ve got $5.2 billion allocated for the small-business cash-flow scheme, and then you\u2019ve also got $3.4 billion for the fair value write-down, which is presumably a reflection of the interest-free elements for it if it\u2019s paid, but bringing a total of over $8 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI\u2019d be keen to just get a bit of a sense of\u2014obviously, that, again, is an estimate and depends on how much is being picked up, and my understanding was it\u2019s about a billion or so that\u2019s been lent so far, but that may have changed in recent times. I\u2019d be keen to just get a sense of, again\u2014I know there aren\u2019t officials here with the Minister; I\u2019m not quite sure why not\u2014what progress has been made in that way in order to help with small-business cashflow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00221f088b94304845c091053233f1b66611\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f088b94304845c091053233f1b66611\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E For the member\u2019s benefit, there are two different categories of expenses. So if the member looks on page 29, just above that, you\u2019ve got the non-departmental expenses, and then, when you go over, it turns into the non-departmental capital expenditure. As I\u2019m sure the member knows, when we talk about loans, just as we do with the student loans scheme, things appear as assets on a book because they are repayable loans. That is the estimate\u2014the $5.2 billion. I think we\u2019re all aware that it\u2019s very difficult to estimate the number of businesses who will choose to draw down on a loan, and so the member is correct in his first statement about the write-off relating to the interest-free component, but the whole book value of the loan has to appear until such time as we can get a more accurate assessment of it, and, obviously, this was done at the time at which the scheme was created.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of his specific question, again, the member\u2019s probably been keeping up with where we\u2019ve got to. It was about $1.3 billion the other day. We are continuing to see demand. It\u2019s around nearly 90,000 businesses that have drawn down on that loan, so it\u2019s certainly achieving the goals we wanted. Making those estimates of exactly how much people will borrow was, obviously, very challenging. That is the nature of the Estimates process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported progress on the Appropriation (2019/20 Supplementary Estimates) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20200623946b6c5243c24752b482cfc6b167d845000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"